[blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

Sun Dec 7 20:21:48 UTC 2008

Okay-
We could as Mike said go round about this one for ever...art or skill? The
trouble with truly defining art is that art itself means no definition
really, interpretation is the core of it in a way. I think we can and need
to put some definition to the skill/art of describing and reading. (thus why
we don't rush to write a simple law without thought for the enforcement) And
BTW Barbara makes an important point about readers. I read professionally
for awhile and each person wanted a bit different and also wanted things
different at different times. Sometimes in a rush things were wanted so I
was reading as fast and without inflection as JAWS on fast speed. BUT to
purely open it up to volunteers is a problem without training, I recall some
early RFB&D's I was shocked, one sounded like a teen girl and she um and
ahh-ed and miss pronounced...one sounded like an old man about to fall
asleep himself...
THE important thing was in real life that the blind person knew how to take
control and had the opportunity to have control. Some like in science wanted
a reader who knows nothing about science so they don't throw in their own
interpretation, some want somebody who knows science for pronunciation and
inflections that are knowledgeable...
Describing is a bit different.

As for art and skill, is a gourmet cook skilled or an artist? When do the
cultural artisians cross over to skilled, when the pottery is mass produced?

My favorite personal definition of art came to me at a museum of modern art
once. There was a display by Yoko Ono. It was just a regular apple that you
could buy at a grocery store, on a stand, just sitting there. Where was HER
art in it? Was she waiting to see if someone would dare to pick up the apple
and take a bite? If I took a bite would the security alarms go off, would I
get kicked out of the museum? Or would I get to meet Yoko Ono? To this day I
regret I did not take a bite and find out! That was HER art in it...I guess.

Whenever I go to a museum or see "modern art" I kick my self that I am not
taping a paintbrush to my dog's paw or coming up with the stuff they do and
making some easy $$$$. That is not skill...but I guess it is art...

That is all I hope I have to say, I am off to buy my Christmas tree. Finding
the right one, now that is an art in my opinion, smile...

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Barbara Hammel
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:54 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

I think it's like he said, it all depends on what the person likes.  When I 
was in high chool learning about hiring readers I was told I wanted to hire 
ones who didn't use much inflection in their voice.  I don't know why.  I 
never did.  I like readers who use inflection and make even the most boring 
book about teaching Math to elementary students interesting.
That's the problem with art.  We all like different flavors.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:49 AM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

> Hi Mike,
> Can you explain why you feel that the analogy of closed-captioning with 
> described video is invalid & as you say "a false analogy"?
> Eric
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 21:49
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>
>
>> Carie:
>>
>> I realize that we could talk this thing to death. Nevertheless, I feel
>> that there is a philosophical point to be made so I'll take one more
>> stab at it in the interest of furthering understanding of NFB's
>> thinking.
>>
>> You are correct in stating that in part, our opposition to legally
>> mandating described video was a matter of "first things first". After
>> all, crawlers imparting emergency information are far more important
>> than descriptions of scenery or action. Even ACB has tacitly
>> acknowledged this in its petition to FCC to require that emergency
>> information be voiced.
>>
>> And you are also correct in saying that describing video is a skill --
>> one that can be improved with practice. However, you undercut your case
>> in my estimation below when you say that teachers or others described
>> "nonessential" stuff such as costumes and colors rather than action. But
>> who is to say what is essential and what is not? Is this not a decision
>> as to what is artistically important? And does this not imply that
>> described video is an art? I know Jim Stovall of "Narrative Television"
>> would agree with you and me that descriptions of costumes and scenery is
>> largely superfluous. I remember he once said that he started Narrative
>> Television in part because he thought the NCAM descriptions were to
>> fluffy/frilly with nonessential elements. Yet I know plenty of blind
>> persons who say that descriptions of scenery, costumes, colors, faces
>> and ambiance is *Precisely* what they want. I think it's stuff and
>> nonsense but they have a right to their opinion and it is every bit as
>> valid as is mine and clearly indicates that describing video is always a
>> judgment call rather than a cut-and-dried exercise of the
>> closed-captioning sort (incidentally ACB makes much of the analogy of
>> closed-captioning with described video -- a false analogy IMO).
>> Moreover, I've listened to movies with described video and had sighted
>> persons watching with me say: "*That's* not what happened! They got it
>> all wrong!".
>>
>> Sounds like an art more than a skill to me. And thus it is not easily
>> susceptible of being a legal requirement!
>>
>> If we are to aproach describing video rationally, we'd better have a
>> clear idea of what we're asking and whether what we want can be
>> accommodated within the framework of the constitution.
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>>
>>
>> Dear Mike, and Eric,
>>
>> I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and a
>> trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
>> perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first things
>> did
>> not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
>> running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
>> important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
>> discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like it
>> more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done in
>> a
>> way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
>> putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what
>> the
>> blind need.
>>
>> That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the
>> following
>> first term grade slip for social studies:
>> A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.
>>
>> All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with
>> accompanying
>> assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear
>> indication
>> of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased both
>> yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was
>> graded
>> or a key component to curriculum.
>>
>> I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It was
>> a
>> huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as
>> has
>> been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair
>> color
>> or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does
>> audio
>> description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and chief
>> scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people who
>> would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind
>> people
>> in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things
>> had
>> to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the
>> ground
>> up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual
>> description
>> or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
>> listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.
>>
>> When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their consumer
>> advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They
>> only do
>> educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies considered
>> entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and
>> Juliet,
>> The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually part
>> of
>> Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of the
>> film. Including testing on the analysis.
>>
>> Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could
>> become
>> available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. I
>> can
>> tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with the
>> links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
>> science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part of
>> the
>> grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which
>> they
>> definitely want.
>>
>> We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important
>> for
>> educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get
>> our
>> voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first
>> things
>> first.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>> Eric:
>>
>> If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require
>> it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a valid
>> standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied with
>> the law.
>>
>> That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
>> certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
>> art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
>> (Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because
>> they cannot present their output to the deaf?)
>>
>> In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
>> described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite
>> well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
>> which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by
>> the blind.
>>
>> What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
>> booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as audio
>> descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
>> would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
>> descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really standard --
>> at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
>> even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
>> print. (grin)
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>>
>> Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
>> imagined my boys on that Harley!
>>
>> On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
>> screen
>> really is an art.
>> I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
>> Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made
>> it
>> more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
>> narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
>> obvious.
>> Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to
>> admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own
>> commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
>> I know this gets debated.
>> For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
>> enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does
>> enhance the experience if done well.
>> It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
>> option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
>> I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
>> Best wishes,
>> Eric V
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>>
>>>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would
>>>miss
>>> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
>>> glasses
>>> and
>>> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
>>> woman,
>>> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a
>>> store
>>> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
>>> here to
>>> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
>>> motor
>>> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
>>> uses
>>> his
>>> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at
>>> a
>>> car
>>> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically
>>> hands
>>> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
>>> bike,
>>> he
>>> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then
>>> the
>>> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
>>> bike
>>> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
>>> trailer
>>> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
>>> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
>>> thing.
>>> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with
>>> the
>>> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
>>> there
>>> is
>>> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>>>
>>> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
>>> something.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>>
>>> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
>>> ail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindkid mailing list
>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindkid:
>>>
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.n
>> et
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
>> ail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindkid:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/icdx%40earthlink.n
et
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindkid:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.co
m
> 

_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindkid:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm
ail.com