[blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Mike Freeman k7uij at panix.com
Mon Dec 8 03:25:59 UTC 2008 

My ex and I did the same thing with our adopted daughter Shanthi lo these many years ago (Shanthi just turned nineteen). She is blind (bilateral anophthalmia) and has developmental delays.

Mike Freeman, President
National Federation of the Blind of Washington

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'Ationfbnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for parents of blind chn\]was <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Date: 2008/12/08 03:05:28
Subject: Re: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups

>
>
> Great beginnings Kathy! Thanks for sharing.
> 
>  
>  
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Kathy B
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:08 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing Listeaggfor parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups
> 
> Speaking of stores...ddone thing I started doing a few months ago with my 2
> 1/2 yr old was putting her in the basket part of the cart when I grocery
> shop.  I just pile all of the groceries up on her.  I have taught her more
> of what is in the store and what things feel like this way than I ever could
> be just talking about what's in the store.  She also loves handing me things
> to put one the conveyor belt when we are checking out so it saves
> time......sometimes. :were  I thought maybe someone else might find this
> helpful.  Happy shopping.
> Kathy
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 2:42:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups
> 
> Dear Colleen,
> I too found your statement "one of the hardest things to teach kids" pretty
> surprising and curious. Obviously you have your real experiences. But
> st... 
> 
> What I guess is a bit disappointing, is that for the students you have had
> anyway, they have not been doing this regularly in life at home.
> Your description didn't sound so hard really, and the things to notice to
> tell how long a line was, or if you are in the right line at all (cash only,
> 10 items or less...ggI don't understand what is so hard about teaching that.
> I do know from my Saturday School experience though that this is an easy one
> to miss at home for some. This shouldn't need to be even an O and More lesson
> In my opinion, or so hard that you have to have O and More certification to
> teach x...I mean any parent can do this with their child and indeed should
> be. I don't find the kids have such trouble grasping it when they have
> opportunities to use and practice the "skill".
> 
> That is much of the problem. Children are not taken to the store because in
> our busy lives it is easier to run in when the kids are not with us, or we
> are in a hurry, or the kids are busy begging us for stuff in line and we
> don't think about it as a teaching moment.
> 
> But this rush to make things easier for u-comoften makes things harder for
> our kids in the long run and is what I mean when I say we have to make a
> commitment to making sure our kids know how to do what sighted kids of the
> same age know how to do. For a sighted child the parent did not have to
> think or make opportunities other than really teaching that you have to wait
> your turn, you can't just butt into the middle or front. Blind children need
> the very things you spoke of pointed out, and they need chances for all the
> varieties of practice. This is what I mean when I say we have to make it a
> conscious effort and make it a lifestyle-comnot mere lessons now and then.
> 
> I am glad for what you wrote Colleen. Real glad. And your "how-to". This is
> a perfect time of year to find great lines! Take the kids shopping! In the
> long run it will save you to put effort into this now.
> 
> 
> 
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:15 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing Listeaggfor parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups
> 
> Colleen:
> 
> You've piqued my curiosity. Why, do you think, is learning to wait in 
> line such a tough concept for your visually impaired students to grasp? 
> I'm not trying to salve my ego but it seemed like a no-brainer to me; it 
> was no different than waiting my turn at nursery school or kindergarten 
> when one was using a scarce resource such as a swing or teeter-totter. 
> (Ah, mischief)
> 
> Mike
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Colleen Davis" <bldhnds52 at yahoo.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing Listeaggfor parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups
> 
> 
> Our O&M Specialist and I usually take our kids on several community 
> trips to grocery stores, fast food places, and a discount department 
> store beginning in early in elementary.
> 
> Just the concept of waiting in line is one of the hardest things to 
> teach to kids who have visual impairments! They are often just told, "We 
> have to wait in line." They move up and ask again, and on, (at this time 
> of year) and on, and on!
> 
> We begin by finding a line with a few people and briefly explain to them 
> that we are doing a lesson on waiting in line. People are usually 
> enthusiastic about helping. Some even like to get involved. One time, a 
> lady suggested that they "count off" and each one counted themselves 
> aloud. It was so cool! My student was able to not only know how many 
> people were there, but who they were. Most of the time, we give our 
> spiel to the customers, and then have the student count the carts either 
> with "/her hand or the cane. Then we get in line and wait, counting 
> down as we move up. We cue the students to the things around them that 
> will let them know that they are getting close: magazine racks, the 
> dreaded candy and "impulse purchase" items, the sound of the scanner, 
> the conveyor belt, the voice of the checker, and the phrases that are 
> used (greetings, "Thank you", "Can I help you?", etc.).
> 
> As the child approaches an age where they would be finding a line on 
> their own, we teach them to listen for the sounds of carts and 
> conversations, along with their canes to find a line. We teach them to 
> ask if they are in the correct line to ___ and where the end of the line 
> is. Sometimes someone will say, "Back here", but sometimes it is, "Back 
> there" (thanks, buddy!). If they get a response that helps them, it is 
> usually not a problem for them to use the cane or their hand touching 
> the front of the cart (not the person) until they arrive at the end.
> 
> We have had people say that they can go to the front of the line, but I 
> thank them, but try to explain that we are working on a lesson on 
> waiting in line and thank them again, with my student thanking them, 
> too.  I prefer for my students to learn to wait in line just like 
> everyone else.
> 
> It is an interesting exercise and I find that most people are very 
> accommodating. We did have one person point out that we were in the 
> express line and we had more than 10 items! That is when we added the 
> "Am I in the correct line to ___?was piece! We learn along with the 
> students every day.
> 
> As I said at the beginning, this is a hard concept and it takes a long 
> time to teach. It helps to share the methods with parents so that they 
> can use it, too.  It needs to be refined as the student grows. At the 
> beginning, the child would not be shopping/ordering independently, so 
> the rationale is the social skills involved in waiting and to assist in 
> maintaining the sanity of the people around the child. :com) As they 
> mature, their role is expanded with the goal that they will be able to 
> complete these tasks independently as teens and adults.
> 
> This may be more information that everyone needed, but I hope it helps. 
> If anyone else has suggestions, I am always looking for new ideas.
> 
> Colleen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 11:55:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups
> 
> Carrie:
> 
> Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent
> tendency on NABS-Like to make mountains out of molehills.
> 
> Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay
> close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you
> don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line
> moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking
> out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that
> might be.
> 
> To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language
> imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria
> line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign
> language! (grin)
> 
> Mike
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'Ationfbnet Blind Kid Mailing Listeaggfor parents of blind children]"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
> Subject: [blkid] FW: [NABS-L] Line Ups
> 
> 
> I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come
> up
> simultaneously on the student list-comthat is they bring it up and discuss
> amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
> about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining
> up...
> I had thought but never added...
> I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is
> I
> wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or
> boot
> camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
> years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
> perfectly...
> 
> I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion
> below
> and the differences between what they were taught and where they were
> taught
> x....
> 
> 
> 
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Valerie Gibson
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
> we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
> front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
> the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
> best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
> end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
> they could tell you when it's time to move up.
> 
> I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
> college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
> you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
> in line.
> 
> On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> > I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> > of the person in front of you.
> > Best,
> > Hannah
> >
> >ar ----- Original Message -----
> >arFrom: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
> >arTo: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >arDate: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 com0500
> >arSubject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
> >
> >arWith respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> > person's
> >arshoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> > some
> >arsighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> > grab your
> >ararm without worning you!
> >
> >arSerena
> >
> >
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >arFrom: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
> >arTo: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> >><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >arSent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
> >arSubject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
> >
> >
> >>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> > that had a
> >>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> > front of
> >>> me.
> >>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> > so if I
> >>> put
> >>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> > are
> >>> perfectly
> >>> fine with it.
> >>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
> >>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> > move up.
> >
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
> >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
> >
> >>> Hi All,
> >>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> > we hadn't
> >>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> > if it's
> >>> your
> >>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> > that
> >>> converge
> >>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> > to ask the
> >>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> > in
> >>> unfamiliar
> >>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> > other thoughts?
> >>> Thank you,
> >>> Sarah
> >
> >
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> > reakblefi%40gm
> >>> ail.com
> >
> >
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> > co%40verizon.net
> >
> >
> >>_______________________________________________
> >arnabs-like mailing list
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> > cious%40suddenlink.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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