[blindkid] MacBook Pro
Richard Holloway
rholloway at gopbc.org
Sat Feb 27 19:10:28 UTC 2010
Sally,
I think part of it too, is about peripheral equipment and the ease of
connecting it which will probably be easier down the road as you want
to add things to your system. The computer hardware itself is
reasonably affordable. You don't need a lot of computing power for
most of our children's computer needs so $400 or $500 is probably
enough to buy a good PC. The problem is that the software represents a
rather large investment too. If you want JAWS, you're going to spend
at least $895 unless you want to run the free demo and restart every
45 minutes (I think it is 45 minutes). Also, there is a service
contract for JAWS of about $120 if you want support and upgrades to be
supplied.
Then if you want Duxbury to print braille properly, that's another
$600. That of course does not include the braille embosser itself. You
might find one used for virtually any price but be aware that a $200
used embosser may need a $1000 repair when it fails. Something like a
Romeo 25 is around $2500 new and again, new or used, you'll probably
want to get Duxbury for $600.
On the Mac side, you can get a new iMac starting around $1200 and that
has a certain amount of screen reading built in, but the options and
support once you want to add an embosser or braille display are
unfortunately vastly more limited...
For us, I wanted to have confidence that we'd be able to use the
embossers and refreshable braille devices of our choice. With a PAC
Mate's removable display, for example hooking up a working braille
display with JAWS on a PC is literally as simple as plugging in a USB
cable. I'm not aware of any solution to add that to a Mac at all.
Likewise for Duxbury (braille translation software), it is current and
well supported for PC but the last version I'm aware of for a Mac is
from 1999. There are a few places on line where it may appear to be
listed as available as a "new release" but then when you see the
references to System 7 and Mac models like a Mac Plus and the "new"
Power PC's you'll realize that these are just really old listings.
A couple of years ago we really looked thoroughly into things and even
as an avid Mac user, I could not justify buying anything but a new PC
when we wanted to buy our daughter her own computer system. I agree
that it makes the most sense not to choose a team too far in advance
though-- you never know what is going to be released when, so don't
make that final decision until you are getting really close to buying
Richard
On Feb 27, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Sally Thomas wrote:
> Thanks, Steve. I did speak with the access technology people and
> had a very interesting conversation. There is an article in the
> December 2009 Braille Monitor which outlines a lot of the specifics
> of accessibility and the MacBook. I haven't had a chance to read it
> yet but it may appeal to the detail oriented folks in the group.
>
> I do understand that it would be important to know what demands the
> school has for use of technology. One of the things the Access Tech
> person told me was that JAWS is more sophisticated in terms of style
> issues in word processing. That's not an issue now but could become
> one.
>
> I still stand by the statement that the issue is not settled about
> which computer is best for a blind child. Right now a Windows PC
> might have an advantage but in 2 years, who knows? There are a lot
> of changes going on so I guess it's a matter of staying informed.
> We don't need a new computer right now so we'll be revisiting all
> this in a couple of years.
>
> Sally Thomas
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com
> >
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org
> >
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 4:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>
>
>> Sally,
>>
>> Please consider the comments on NABS-L that suggested that seeing
>> what his school is using, both for software and hardware, is worth
>> doing. It may make the
>> decision easier, or convince you that it doesn't matter. Either
>> outcome is best to know before you make a purchase. I know the
>> people in our access group, and I
>> don't think they can tell you much more than we have without more
>> information such as what is being used by his school and within his
>> class, and of course, one
>> must look to next year as well. How do student's write papers, how
>> specific is the instruction on word processing, do students work
>> together on a document, is he
>> going to take any statistics or math classes, and so forth.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:20 -0600, Sally Thomas wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry I bumped my laptop and sent the last message prematurely.
>>
>>> I read a statement from Kevin Lynch, the CTO of Adobe. He says
>>> that Adobe
>>> is working on the Flash/MacBook issue. Steve Jobs isn't happy
>>> with Adobe
>>> but the issue of Flash vs. html seems to be far from finished
>>> right now. In
>>> my opinion, if Apple wants to market the iPad as an educational
>>> tool, this
>>> issue will need to be resolved one way or another. There are
>>> increasing
>>> advances in the way html works so it is possible that either html
>>> will
>>> overtake Flash or maybe there will be advances in both.
>>
>>> I contacted the NABS group and the feedback I got was that right
>>> now neither
>>> Windows nor the MacBook does everything. It appears that most
>>> people use
>>> Windows and a screenreader like JAWS but it doesn't appear that
>>> this is due
>>> to comparing the 2 but rather because the Voice Over technology on
>>> the
>>> MacBook has improved to the point that it is a more viable option
>>> now. Like
>>> Dave Andrews said, different folks prefer different options.
>>
>>> I have a call into the Access Technology group at NFB. They
>>> appear to be a
>>> pretty busy group because their message told me to leave my
>>> question and
>>> they'd get back to me within 3 business days. If I gather any
>>> important
>>> information from them, I'll share it here.
>>
>>> So, right now there is not a definitive answer to this question.
>>> While I do
>>> understand that many educational software providers are working in
>>> Flash,
>>> this doesn't mean that Windows is best for blind kids educational
>>> needs.
>>> Now I'm worried about access to things like graphs and maps. I
>>> can just
>>> hear the teachers saying "he doesn't need braille, he can just
>>> listen to his
>>> books."
>>
>>> I keep wishing that there was one device that would do everything
>>> for my son
>>> but that is not the case now. It appears that right now, either
>>> technology
>>> would work for him. Things are changing and we'll have to see how
>>> it pans
>>> out. We just need to make it clear that access to ALL the
>>> material is
>>> important to blind kids.
>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org
>>> >
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 11:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>>
>>>> The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in
>>>> 2006.
>>>>
>>>> Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
>>>> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm
>>>>
>>>> If you google Case No.: C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details
>>>> of the
>>>> NFB case and the settlement.
>>>>
>>>> Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone
>>>> comply but
>>>> in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or
>>>> really
>>>> just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big company
>>>> like
>>>> Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that many web
>>>> pages are
>>>> setup by small groups or single individuals with little budget
>>>> or very
>>>> often for no money.
>>>>
>>>> Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment,
>>>> and if
>>>> they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site
>>>> off- line;
>>>> sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would
>>>> hope to
>>>> achieve.
>>>>
>>>> On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software
>>>> improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I
>>>> upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I
>>>> like to
>>>> use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text
>>>> descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really
>>>> think
>>>> that better educated web designers and improved software are the
>>>> most
>>>> probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.
>>>>
>>>> Richard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In that vein what are we as an organization doing to educate and
>>>>> mitigate
>>>>> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our
>>>>> community
>>>>> at a
>>>>> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements
>>>>> and the
>>>>> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our
>>>>> need for
>>>>> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a
>>>>> law suit or
>>>>> a
>>>>> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter
>>>>> and intra
>>>>> net
>>>>> access needs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>>>>> one who
>>>>> is
>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> ]
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind
>>>>> children)'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and
>>>>> Hal, as
>>>>> long
>>>>> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for
>>>>> accessibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can
>>>>> access
>>>>> Flash.
>>>>> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and
>>>>> will have
>>>>> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible
>>>>> enrichment
>>>>> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany
>>>>> their online
>>>>> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go
>>>>> hand in
>>>>> hand
>>>>> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their
>>>>> assessments
>>>>> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also
>>>>> Flash based.
>>>>> All
>>>>> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac,
>>>>> because you
>>>>> will
>>>>> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for
>>>>> browsing a
>>>>> large
>>>>> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
>>>>> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> ]
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids. I
>>>>> hear
>>>>> comments
>>>>>
>>>>> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really
>>>>> curious. My
>>>>> son
>>>>>
>>>>> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>>>>>
>>>>> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS
>>>>> were not
>>>>> accessible. I guess some of it depends on how the site is
>>>>> designed. I
>>>>> am
>>>>> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS. I'm
>>>>> going to
>>>>> check
>>>>>
>>>>> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
>>>>> usefulness of the Mac for older kids. I think the suggestion
>>>>> to check
>>>>> with
>>>>> the student division is a good one too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad
>>>>> placed as an
>>>>> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve
>>>>> accessibility,
>>>>> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind
>>>>> children)'"
>>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe
>>>>>> Flash
>>>>>> content.
>>>>>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes
>>>>>> and Hal
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for
>>>>>> children,
>>>>>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites,
>>>>>> inaccessible on
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are
>>>>>> wanting
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> ]
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind
>>>>>> children)
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't
>>>>>> support
>>>>>> Flash.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind
>>>>>> children)'"
>>>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the
>>>>>>> Mac.
>>>>>>> Apple's
>>>>>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>>>>>> compatible
>>>>>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more
>>>>>>> Flash
>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially
>>>>>>> children's
>>>>>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an
>>>>>>> MSAA
>>>>>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> ]
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind
>>>>>>> children)
>>>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work? My
>>>>>>> son has
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> iPod Touch which he loves. He is even able to type and send
>>>>>>> email
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> despite the touch screen. This has convinced him that a
>>>>>>> MacBook is
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> computer for him. I'm wondering about the limitations of the
>>>>>>> built in
>>>>>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its
>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>> Since
>>>>>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading
>>>>>>> software,
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> might be a good choice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> om
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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