[blindkid] Guide dogs for twelve year olds?

Richard Holloway rholloway at gopbc.org
Wed Jan 20 19:05:26 UTC 2010


I appreciate your kind words, thank you. I also have concerns about  
all that goes into training guide dog (including the massive time and  
vast expense) and the well-being of the animal, and especially age 12  
seems young to a concerning degree, but not out of the question.  
Arbitrary age requirements are often a concern to me. They are  
generally a short cut around proper information.

With a different daughter turning 16 next week, I am painfully aware  
of another seemingly arbitrary age society has determined; the age for  
driving. Some kids could be driving much sooner than 16 safely, yet  
many-- dare I say most might be better off waiting until they are  
older than 16 before they are driving. I'd like better and more  
thorough testing for ALL drivers but age as a determination is simple,  
so they use it. For blind children (and adults) I just want to offer  
everything that can reasonably be offered to level the playing field  
as much as possible so I would like to see more research in this area,  
even if my blind daughter never gains anything directly from the  
research.

As to our younger girl's O&M, to be clear we have had excellent  
support and cooperation from O&M instructors, especially over the last  
4+ years. There was a good deal of initial cane use disagreement with  
some earlier O&M's and other intervention specialists who made a point  
of taking aside other parents and telling them they were only letting  
our daughter use a cane against their recommendation, while they  
directed other (fully able) kids to use huge, heavy, and awkward so- 
called "pre-cane devices" made of PVC.

Meanwhile, we were supplying the other parents with cane encouragement  
and supplying them free canes through NFB. We stepped on a few toes  
with that I'm afraid, but that is a different story for a different  
time..

Richard



On Jan 20, 2010, at 12:58 PM, Heather wrote:

> One thing to consider is that, yes, it would be easy for them to get  
> themselves in too far at twelve, much more likely than with an  
> adult, and finding themselves in too far is not just about mommy or  
> daddy having to cleen up an accident or feed the dog when the child  
> forgets, we are talking about a dog that thousands and thousands of  
> hours of time, energy and love have been put into, as well as thirty  
> to fifty thousand dollars.  That is not something you gambel with.   
> If a child neglects a pet dog or does not use it to full potential,  
> then "Ah well, it is being cared for by the parents, it has been  
> rescued from a shelter and it is providing companionship to the  
> various famioly members." but when we are talkking about potentially  
> wasting a valuable resource on something that might even wind up  
> being detremental to the dog, that is another story.  On another  
> note, regarding the cane travel.  Good for you, and kudos to your  
> daughter. It is horifying to hear of O and M instructors denying  
> children canes.  That is absolutely rediculous and detremental.  My  
> son is seventeen months, and although he does not use a cane, we  
> will work on incorperating one into his outdoor travel, once the  
> weather gets nicer.  At this point he is only doing indoor travel in  
> our homme and those of our friends, because the snow is up to my hip  
> outside, but when it is nicer, he can go on walks with us and  
> practice cane travel then.  The only thing I would caussion parents  
> to be mindful of, is pushing a cane on a toddler for too much time  
> per day.  i don't believe that fifteen or sixteen months is too  
> early, just that it is important that children learn to navigate  
> cane free in familiar areas like their homes.  No blind adults use  
> canes in their homes, and the really compitant ones can run all over  
> the place in their house, not appearing blind in their movements to  
> those who doo not know that they are blind.  For instance, if they  
> work in a small office as adults, it is not unreasonable to expect  
> that they be able to walk to the next office down the hall, make  
> coppies on the coppier and then walk down to one more office to  
> deliver the papers.  Or, if they are teaching in a school, they  
> should be able to travel caneless from their class room to another  
> nearby classroom, if need be.  I completely understand where you're  
> coming from on the cane thing, and I applaud you, as I have seen  
> some of the assanine literature that is actually used to teach some  
> O and M instructors about what is "best" for blind children.  It is  
> great to see a parent so confident in their child, who holds them to  
> normal standards and doesn't blindly take everything that blindness  
> "professionals" say as gospil.  That being said, I know some amazing  
> TVIs and O and M instructors who are able to foster outstanding cane  
> skills in young children and preserve the importance of them  
> developing confident, graceful, cane-free movement in other  
> appropriate situations, as well.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org 
> >
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org 
> >
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 10:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Guide dogs for twelve year olds?
>
>
> I can see both sides of this issue but I have to agree with Albert.
>
> Certainly it would be possible for a younger child to find himself or
> herself "in too far" in having to care for and deal with a guide dog.
> Indeed that would be possible for a 16 or 18 year old, or dare I
> suggest an older adult as well?
>
> With that said, I have heard of many things that my blind daughter
> would supposedly not be "ready" for, including having a cane for
> travel. That did not stop her from having a cane at 18 months and if I
> had it to do over again, all I would do is not delay until she was
> that old. Some kids at my daughter's current age (seven) still have no
> canes or if they have them, have little motivation and encouragement
> to use them. That doesn't mean MY child cannot become an outstanding
> cane traveler at an early age.
>
> Not long ago, O&M "experts" nearly always wanted to keep canes out of
> blind kids hands until, what, middle school or even later? I also know
> of cases where they would bring a cane for an O&M lesson and then
> leave WITH THE CANE. Again, presumably because the kids "weren't
> ready" to be independent cane travelers. You are supposed to be a
> proficient cane traveler before you can travel with a guide dog. When
> kids used to get canes much later, that could have come into play more
> but it is very possible for a 12-year-old to be an expert cane
> traveler now. Such a child could have been using a cane for 10 years
> or more by age 12 after all...
>
> My daughter is above grade level with her reading and writing braille.
> Some of her blind friends at the same age are not so fortunate (while
> others are). We decided early on to make every effort to keep her
> "caught up" with her sighted classmates (if not ahead). Some other
> parents don't feel this is so important, even if there is no reason
> (besides vision issues) which should hold the child back. So, who is
> "right"?
>
> Well, I clearly have an opinion about what is right for MY child. It
> really isn't my place to say what is the correct choice for others. So
> here is my point-- I cannot say yet if my daughter would possibly be
> ready to consider guide dog use and ownership 5 years from now (at age
> 12), but I can say with some certainty that just because others are
> not ready would not mean that she could not possibly be so.
>
> Can children possibly be mature enough to be in charge of the care for
> an animal before age 16? I would say "yes, in some cases, absolutely".
> (Who would disagree?) And clearly some kids are excellent cane
> travelers before 16. So then why would we close the door to the
> possibility?
>
> Is this a good idea for all kids in the age range of 12? I suspect it
> is not. besides, guide dogs are not for everyone-- not even all blind
> adults. Still, I for one would vote for more investigation into this
> before we begin to campaign against it. We need to be the trend
> setters for open-minded thought where our kids are concerned. If this
> is possible and beneficial for even one of our kids, let's find a way
> to make it (safely) happen.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> On Jan 20, 2010, at 10:09 AM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>
>> Here here!  Wy set the bar low when in fact a child of 12 years or   
>> 13 years
>> has the capacity and maturity to handle the responsibility? Isn’t  
>> it  our
>> responsibility  to give all children those tools they need based   
>> upon their
>> individual abilities to achieve all things possible in their  
>> lives.  I do not
>> see the reason for nor the reluctance  to allow any teenager an  
>> opportunity
>> to exercise their choice for mobility and that it include a guide  
>> dog.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the  
>> one  who is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> ] On
>> Behalf Of Doreen Frappier
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:40 AM
>> To: (for parents of blind children)NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Guide dogs for twelve year olds?
>>
>> I am not opposed to having responsible 12 year olds own and care  
>> for  a guide
>> dog.  I believe that children mature at different rates. For   
>> example, 4-H
>> children own and care for animals (on their own) at very young   
>> ages. They
>> are responsible for feeding and caring for that animal. One of my  
>> children,
>> (sighted) is 13, and has been the sole trainer of a dog since she   
>> was 9
>> years old.  She has won many awards and competitions with her dog,  
>> including
>> adult dog shows. She is responsible for feeding and caring for  
>> that  dog.
>> When the dog gets her check ups at the vet, she comes to the vets   
>> office.
>> It's true, a young person can not take care of the expenses of a   
>> guide dog,
>> but I am all for training teaching blind children to be  
>> independent  as early
>> as possible. I think each situation is different.  I am not aware of
>> everything that goes into caring for and owning a guide dog, but I   
>> think
>> some children are capable and should not be excluded because of
>> age.
>>
>> Doreen
>>
>> --- On Wed, 1/20/10, Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
>> Subject: [blindkid] Guide dogs for twelve year olds?
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Wednesday, January 20, 2010, 7:22 AM
>>
>> I just wanted to get some feedback on this from some parents of blind
>> children and teens.  I, personally, was absolutely apalled to hear   
>> that a
>> local guide dog school, not mentioning names *coughs* Freedom  
>> guide  Dogs
>> *Coughs* has preposed a program to place guide dogs with twelve  
>> year olds.
>> All of the other schools in the US accept teens no younger than   
>> sixteen or
>> eighteen years of age, depending on the school, but twelve?  I am   
>> happy to
>> note that at present, no O and M instructors, parents or twelve  
>> year  olds
>> have contacted the school to enquire about this program, but I am  
>> dreading
>> the day.  This makes a mockery of those exceptional blind teens  
>> who  are, at
>> sixteen or seventeen, responsible enough, committed enough and have
>> demanding enough schedules to properly care for, utalize and   
>> actually need a
>> guide dog.  At what age would you consider supporting your teen in
>> researching guide dog schools?  At what age would you support them  
>> actually
>> submitting applications?  How old would you want your teen to be   
>> before
>> actually being placed with a guide dog?  Do you think that you  
>> would  have
>> the blunt honesty to deny your support of your child getting a dog   
>> guide, if
>> they were not emotionally, mentally, etc capable of utalizing a   
>> guide dog,
>> at that time in their life?  Do you think that you could restrain  
>> yourself
>> from taking care of the dog, interacting with the dog, or doing   
>> things that
>> would undermine the ownership of the dog by your blind teen,  
>> acknowledging
>> their sole ownership and responsibility for the dog, even if you,  
>> as their
>> mother or father still have all other rule-making power in the  
>> house- hold?
>> Finally, would you ever, honestly let your twelve year old apply  
>> for  a guide
>> dog?  I just felt this should be brought to the list's attention.    
>> Just me
>> personally, I would not encourage my blind teen to start  
>> researching guide
>> dog schools until age fourteen or fifteen, and I would not
>> allow them to apply to schools until they were at least fifteen,  
>> and  that
>> is assuming that they are emotionally ready to deal with the  
>> demands  of a
>> guide dog, such as handeling an emergency vet situation, mentally   
>> able to
>> care for the dog, such as, researching and selecting safe toys,   
>> effective
>> medications and appropriate foods, mature enough to deal with the   
>> social
>> implications, such as access issues, and that they actually had a   
>> need, not
>> just a want for a guide dog, due to a challenging travel area or   
>> complex and
>> demanding schedule of activities and classes.  Please share your  
>> thoughts.
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>>
>>
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