[blindkid] To Sign or not To Sign

Richard Holloway rholloway at gopbc.org
Mon Feb 25 03:53:14 UTC 2013


Perhaps you are right. My comparison as written may have overstated, however in my experience, I have generally seen as many alert signs as I have signs that refer to various laws directly, perhaps more. Haven't most of us?

Signs alert us to everything from speed bumps and road humps to various curves and intersections. The fact that roads are slippery when wet is not a law. Likewise with cautions for ice on a bridge, or a soft shoulder. Divided highways are marked to stop and start. There are dips and lane offsets indicated. Cattle crossings (the kind with railroad ties across the road) are marked (not to be mistaken with animal crossings where animals actually cross roads which are also marked). Dead end streets & no outlet streets, flash flood areas, and dangerous intersections abound... Road inclines are indicated in percents of grade. There are areas with heavy fog, crosswinds, fords, roads twisting and even "switching back" passages indicted. Gravel is loose, bridges are low and narrow. The list seems nearly endless.

We mark schools, playgrounds, and churches. We request drivers "Share the Road" with bicycles. Perhaps the bike signs do in a way, but are all of these signs are indicating laws to be followed? Why would the DOT continue to post all of these signs if they were regarded as ineffective? Does this FHA study actually suggest that all of these "informational signs" are summarily ignored by drivers? Or do they indicate that only special-needs-related signs are disregarded and offer false security to those referenced? Perhaps "Hospital" signs be removed to keep people safer around hospitals? Do people generally ignore "Fire Station" signs as well?

Speaking of informational signs, if a community or state has a white cane law (as so many do), how could it possibly be LESS appropriate to post a warning that you should be aware of, and give way to blind persons in the roadway there than to post about other laws? Such a sign would, in many cases, reflect an actual LAW. Perhaps these signs should be changed to "Blind Persons have Right of Way" or such? We have "Yield to Pedestrians" signs, and white cane laws are separate laws from pedestrian laws. If there are two laws, why not post warnings about both? They tend post "Yield to Pedestrians" signs near areas where there are pedestrians, which seems to make some sense. I wonder where we should post signs about laws protecting the blind from traffic.....

I did search myself, and I must say I had little luck in finding the studies to which you refer, but since there seems to me no uniform posting of these sorts of signs, and since they may not be posting anything on signs which is legally enforceable, I am caused to wonder how exactly the Federal Highway Administration did a reasonable study on the matter. I would be interested to read the study if you have a link available.

I'm not at all surprised there is no PROVEN effectiveness of these signs. I can't see how one makes the leap from "we can't prove they are effective" to "we advise against these for risk of a false sense of security". It seems to me that simply is not a logical approach. Isn't that what you legal folk like to call a "non sequitur"?

I get that you are apparently reporting what you have read, but what I know for a fact, is when I see signs for anything listed above, or most anything else-- particularly a special needs sign of any kind, I assume it is posted for a reason and I adjust my diving accordingly. I seriously doubt I am the only driver in the country who respects these signs and the concerns of safety where special needs children are concerned.

Yet with all that said, once again, I was simply suggesting that we be supportive of parents (and blind adults who may choose to ask for their own sakes) when they want to request signs to take one more small step in trying all that is possible the keep their children (or themselves) safe.

I'm a bit overwhelmed by the opposition to my suggestions about this matter of late, and even specific suggestions by some that we call upon the NFB to rise up and formally oppose the posting of such signs. How in the world is this doing anything but supporting the attempts of greater safety by people who want it?




On Feb 24, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Chantel Alberhasky wrote:

> I don't think one can equate a "special needs child" sign with a sign that informs the driver of the speed limit or a stop sign for that matter.  The latter is telling the driver s/he must do anything - stop, yield, not drive above a certain speed, etc - while the former is merely meant to alert the the driver.  
> 
> I tried to do a little research on the Internet to determine the effectiveness of the signs and it appears that the use of said signs are discouraged because it gives a false sense of security to parents and there is no proven effectiveness of the signs. Traffic studies by FHA indicate the signs do not alter the behavior of drivers.  Chantel L. Alberhasky, Esq
> 419 Boonville Avenue
> Springfield, MO 65806
> 417.865.4444
> 
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> 
> --- On Sun, 2/24/13, Richard Holloway <rholloway at gopbc.org> wrote:
> 
> From: Richard Holloway <rholloway at gopbc.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] To Sign or not To Sign
> To: "Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, February 24, 2013, 6:52 PM
> 
> Deaf children are less likely to hear cars. Kids without vision cannot see cars. This is not a matter of "self-esteem". These are facts. There are similar signs for autistic children who might react to cars in less-than-predictable ways. I'm sure there are many conditions which have driven concerned parents and other citizens to post signs to try and protect various people in the community.
> 
> I'm aware of a facility nearby for the elderly where we are requested not to make too much noise as it disturbs these residents. (Signs are posted near the facility requesting quiet.) I have seen the same near many hospitals. That's noise getting into their building-- much less dangerous than hitting people with a car.
> 
> The notion that posting dangers (or presumably even laws) on signs causes people to ignore the danger more, or presumably even intentionally break the law is a bit far fetched, isn't it? If we stop posting the speed limit would it reduce the number of speeders?
> 
> Kids with blindness, deafness, autism and a variety of other differences ARE different than other children. If one wants to follow this stream of "logic" far enough, one could conclude that there is no place for a blind child to have an IEP. The entire point of an IEP is it distinguishes one child from another.
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 24, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
> 
>> The reason it is a threat to self-esteem is because it is a sign that
>> distinguishes one child from another. It would be one thing if every
>> kid in the neighborhood had a sign in front of their house signaling
>> there are children present; that would not threaten self-esteem. But
>> if there is only one blind kid, or a handful of blind kids, and signs
>> only in front of their homes signaling that a blind kid lives there,
>> that is a potential source of stigma. If a sign is used to point out
>> the presence of some people but not everyone, then the sign functions
>> as a label. Most of us agree that being labeled "handicapped" carries
>> a stigma Having that label broadcast to the world just intensifies
>> that stigma. Walk signs, or stop signs, apply equally to everybody and
>> don't separate one individual from another. I hope that makes sense.
>> Arielle
>> 
>> On 2/24/13, Albert J Rizzi <albert at myblindspot.org> wrote:
>>> Regarding self esteem and how a blind individual may or may not feel about
>>> themselves when we are discussing environmental signage.
>>> 
>>> How is a sign of any nature, which is there not so much for the blind in
>>> this instance, but for the drivers and visitors to the neighborhood,
>>> perceived as a compromise to self esteem?
>>> 
>>> As a kindergarten teacher, there is a whole component on environmental
>>> signage for students. When we consider one way signs, or stop signs, or
>>> crossing signals, which are used daily and very regularly by the sighted
>>> community as cues, is it a stretch to then assume, following the logic
>>> offered regarding the impact on self esteem, that the sighted community
>>> suffers a lack of self esteem because of the environmental signage that is
>>> abundant?
>>> 
>>> I am not able to make the connection between signage that offers
>>> information
>>> to individuals as a causation for a lack of self esteem for anyone. The
>>> same
>>> position is taken when we discuss audible crossing signs. Yet the sighted
>>> community has been using them  for decades, and no one  suffers from low
>>> self esteem when they see the sign that says walk or don't walk.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle
>>> Silverman
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 1:59 PM
>>> To: Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] To Sign or not To Sign
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> I am less concerned about a child getting teased or bullied because of a
>>> sign, and more concerned about how knowing about a sign could affect a
>>> blind
>>> child's self-esteem and feelings about himself and his blindness.
>>> Albert, I don't personally agree with your choice to get a sign, but you
>>> are
>>> a competent adult and I respect your right to make that choice. It is
>>> different when we are talking about making that choice on behalf of a child
>>> who doesn't have the power yet to make that decision for herself.
>>> I really think that on the benefits side of the argument, we need to ask
>>> ourselves whether we really believe that blindness makes street crossing
>>> more dangerous than it is for any pedestrian. Getting a sign implicitly
>>> supports that belief. I used to think the same, but my training at the
>>> Louisiana Center for the Blind has taught me that, on average, I can be
>>> just
>>> as safe crossing the street as anybody else.
>>> I'm not just saying that because that's what my instructors told me, but
>>> because I have actually crossed many intersections and learned that through
>>> my own experiences.
>>> Arielle
>>> 
>>> On 2/24/13, Albert J Rizzi <albert at myblindspot.org> wrote:
>>>> Peter,
>>>> 
>>>> Opinions are just that, opinions. Everyone has one. agreed, probably
>>>> best to leave this one covered as discussions go, and best to agree to
>>>> disagree.
>>>> Peace.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
>>>> Donahue
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 12:07 PM
>>>> To: Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] To Sign or not To Sign
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Albert and everyone,
>>>> 
>>>>     Our experience is not simply from suggestion. I lived it! Even
>>>> more ironic is the fact that our house was located in a school zone.
>>>> During school hours drivers are required to drive slower to enhance
>>>> the safety of children . Having sinage alerting motorists to the
>>>> presence of a blind child in this situation was over-kill and
>>>> unnecessary. Such sinage only reinforces the mistaken belief that the
>>>> blind cannot travel safely and that it's the public's job to "Take
>>>> care of us." And there's the issue of the presence of these signs
>>>> encouraging malicious persons to hassle the disabled individual by
>>>> throwing things at the persons, the signs, attempting to run the blind
>>>> person over, etc. Such behavior creates an even more dangerous
>>>> situation for all children in areas where such sinage is posted.
>>>> Fortunately I was not harassed by neighbors when I decided it was time
>>>> to venture out on my own.
>>>> This is a can of worms best left sealed.
>>>> 
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>>> To: "'Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 10:24 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] To Sign or not To Sign
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> All,
>>>> 
>>>> I had signs put up on my block after  walking out of my home, in a
>>>> quiet residential neighborhood and while crossing the street to my
>>>> neighbors house, and individual in a car thought they would be funny
>>>> and sped up and nearly hit me, intentionally, for kicks.
>>>> 
>>>> For warned is for armed. I do not agree with some positions here that
>>>> a sign lessons our stature in the community, but provides information
>>>> to others for interpretation and action.
>>>> 
>>>> Much as signs are put up on the sides of roads, as they have been for
>>>> decades, and much as they have been the target for rocks, and or pop
>>>> shots, to think that signs alerting drivers to circumstances and
>>> situations that
>>>> will impact their driving,   and how their driving might or might not
>>>> impact
>>>> members of the community is not a bad idea. It is an option, that like
>>>> any option, is just that. an option. We can either choose to take
>>>> those options or not. to think that some would suggest that such
>>>> signage would then pave the way for a blind child or a deaf child to
>>>> be tormented by others is a stretch in my opinion.
>>>> 
>>>> I feel good about my choice, and my insistence to have the signs up,
>>>> to add to the tools I have to ensure that I am not run down by
>>>> careless drivers who might mistaken me for someone who can see them
>>>> coming down the road, especially with those hybrid cars on the road
>>>> these days.
>>>> 
>>>> My choices, are mine, and for me they are not wrong. So I say, if so
>>>> inclined, and if as a parent you feel it will give you a piece of
>>>> mind, and add a layer of safety for your child, as well as other
>>>> children in the area, put that sign up and put it up with confidence
>>>> and purpose. Peace.
>>>> 
>>>> .
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
>>>> Donahue
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 11:10 AM
>>>> To: Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] To Sign or not To Sign
>>>> 
>>>> Good morning everyone,
>>>> 
>>>>     Like Merry's neighborhood there were signs for a deaf child posted
>>>> near the child's home. My parents saw this and had "Blind Child" signs
>>>> placed near our house as well. They attracted more attention then was
>>> desired.
>>>> They
>>>> made fine targets for the neighborhood kids to throw rocks at or shoot
>>>> at as if they were meant for target practicing. Given these reactions
>>>> these signs had the very opposite effect then originally intended. If
>>>> I had a disabled child I would avoid them like the plague. If a
>>>> municipality insisted on putting up these signs due to my disabled
>>>> child I'd tell them "Not on our block!"
>>>> 
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Merry-Noel Chamberlain" <owinm at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: <blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 9:46 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] To Sign or not To Sign
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This has been a very interesting conversation. I thank everyone for
>>>> their input in helping Ashleah with her Girl Scout research project.
>>>> My daughter, Ashleah, is a super traveler. (She has no choice as I am
>>>> an O&M
>>>> instructor.)
>>>> 
>>>> My husband & I have been discussing this topic ever since buying this
>>>> house this past summer. It is his old neighborhood of his growing up
>>>> days. At that
>>>> 
>>>> time there was a sign for a deaf child. We live four houses from the
>>>> Middle & Elem. schools and on the street where parents drop off and
>>>> pick up their children. It can get quite busy- especially in the
>>>> morning as parents are in
>>>> 
>>>> a rush to get to work.  Needless to say, my husband  and I have
>>>> opposite opinions about this topic.  We have discussed this idea with
>>>> Ashleah, now in
>>>> 
>>>> 7th grade and walking to school for the first time in her life.
>>>> Although we
>>>> 
>>>> live so close to school, she does need to cross 2 streets/one
>>> intersection.
>>>> Before school, most times, there is a crossing guard but  afterwards,
>>>> she enjoys staying later for social activities and, at that time,
>>>> there is not a crossing guard by the time she leaves school.  I did
>>>> some research and discovered our town no longer has a special sign for
>>>> blindness, deafness, or otherwise. Rather, there is a "Caution,
>>>> Special Needs Child" sign.  Here, the sign can be posted only up to
>>>> when the child is age 13 or entering Middle School.  Sometimes
>>>> I'll meet her at school and walk with her home to monitor her
>>>> street crossing skills..... She used to run to dross the street but
>>>> now, she is walking... Her confidence is growing!
>>>> 
>>>> Merry-Noel
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