[blindkid] Signs ETC

Bernadette Jacobs bernienfb75 at gmail.com
Wed Feb 27 14:30:53 UTC 2013


Yay Mary!!!  Way to go!!!  Those NAC-tracking days were the days.  Huh???

Bernie, (a fellow NAC-Tracker!!!

On 2/26/13, Mary Donahue <braille at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> Good evening again everyone,
>
> 	The sentiment against the use of anything that stigmatizes the blind
> as incapable and unable to travel safely is very much alive and well in
> this
> organization. This was strongly evident in 1987 when we picketed the
> Lighthouse of the Palm Beaches in West Palm Beach Florida during the NAC
> demonstration. That year NAC met in Fort Lauderdale. In addition to
> picketing the NAC meetings themselves we would picket NAC-accredited
> agencies for the blind in the area. Since the Lighthouse of the Palm
> beaches
> operated a sheltered workshop and regularly paid its blind workers less
> than
> the Federal minimum wage and was accredited by NAC they were a target for
> one of our protests that year.
>
> 	Both of us walked the picket line that year. It was quickly
> discovered that in addition to the audio pedestrian signal at the
> intersection near the lighthouse there were several "Blind Pedestrian"
> signs
> throughout the area. Whenever the APS which was a bell sounded we chanted
> "When the blind are taught well we don't need a bell!" we let out boos that
> could be heard for miles around! Another chant that resounded through the
> picket line was "Train the blind, get rid of the sign!" We know because we
> were there!
>
> 	This is further proof that anything that draws unnecessary attention
> to our blindness is highly undesirable and in the long run creates more
> problems than it solves.    Federationists from around the country gathered
> in Florida and in other locations to let our voices be heard. NAC tracking
> was fun. Both of us took part in several NAC demonstrations including the
> one in Florida. Those words are still true today as they were back then.
> "Train the blind, get rid of the sign!"
>
> Peter and Mary Donahue
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> Donahue
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:41 PM
> To: Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Signs for Susan
>
> Good evening everyone,
>
>     I heard that we never could get a resolution passed concerning
> dining-in-the-dark, but one was successfully passed last summer in Dallas.
> The convention ultimately decides which resolutions are adopted and which
> will not. We have taken stands on other types of programs and behaviors
> that
> stigmatize blind people and have adopted resolutions concerning many of
> them. Perhaps it's time that a position concerning the use of "Blind
> Child/Pedestrian" signs is brought to the convention for consideration. All
> the best.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
> To: "Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Signs for Susan
>
>
> Hi all,
> As my (hopefully) last post on this topic, I would just like to make
> the observation that all the former blind children on this list who
> chose to comment expressed opposition to putting up "blind child"
> signs as opposed to "child at play" signs. That is, all the blind
> adults on this list who have personal experience growing up blind
> oppose use of the signs. (Albert, since you said you have only been
> blind for seven years, I am assuming that you lost your sight in
> adulthood-correct me if I am wrong). I think this sentiment among
> former blind children is something worth considering if you find
> yourself grappling with this decision. We can argue about whether or
> not the signs confer benefit to a blind child or if they actually
> address risks blind children experience that sighted children do not
> experience. But we also need to keep in mind that the potential stigma
> and self-esteem threat posed by a blind-child sign is a real problem
> that former blind children have picked up on. As former blind children
> we know what it is like to be told, directly or indirectly, that
> blindness is an inferior condition of being, or to be labeled as
> different in the eyes of others. A sign is a label saying that someone
> is blind and therefore deserving of special treatment. Perhaps this is
> justified in certain situations, perhaps not, but either way it is
> stigmatizing and threatening to one's sense of positive identity. I
> know you want to keep your children safe, but I also think you want to
> raise children who are ultimately comfortable with themselves and OK
> with their blindness. I think it's important to keep both of those
> things in mind when deciding whether or not to get a sign or to do any
> number of things that call special attention to a blind child. While I
> don't personally support an NFB resolution to oppose signs and am
> confident such a resolution would not pass, I do think that former
> blind children need to be consulted when evaluating these kinds of
> accommodations. I think that is one of the great things about NOPBC.
> Similarly, I think that people in the deaf community, and especially
> those who were once deaf children, are the best ones to comment on the
> benefits and risks of "deaf child" signs. I'm glad this topic was
> brought up as, to be honest, I didn't even know such signs existed
> before we began this discussion.
> Best,
> Arielle
>
> On 2/26/13, Rene Harrell <rjharrell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Richard,
>>
>> I think you did an excellent job of outlining risks and concerns. :) I
>> simply struggle with understanding how it translates in the practical
>> reality of a sign. Unless your child is carrying a cane, her disability
>> is
>> INVISIBLE to the drivers coming down the road. They have no way to
>> discern
>> if your child is the Blind one that the sign refers to, or whether or not
>> to treat every child walking down the road as if they might be the blind
>> one. All they know is that there might be a blind child in the area but
>> without a way of identifying a blind child, there is no way for them to
>> see
>> a 10 year old walking down the street and prepare themselves for the
>> chance
>> they might veer off into the road unexpectedly. As a driver then, I am
>> not
>> looking at your 10 year old and being any more careful about them than I
>> would for any other ten year old, even with the "Blind Child" sign.
>>
>> If your child is carrying a cane, then I don't need a Blind Child sign to
>> recognize that your child is blind and to be extra vigilant about her
>> crossing the road. Everywhere Clare goes with her cane, and when we are
>> crossing roads, when drivers see that she is carrying a cane they assume
>> the responsibility of being more aware of themselves and their driving.
>> Most of them probably have no idea that white cane laws exist. This is
>> how
>> we safely navigate areas with no such sign in sight.
>>
>> Same thing with "deaf child" and "autistic child" signs. When there is no
>> way to actually differentiate the child who is the reason for the sign,
>> you
>> have no way discernible way to know for whom to be vigilant *for*. The
>> sign
>> then actually provides no benefit if you can't figure out *who* it is
>> that
>> is requiring this caution. If I see a 10 year old walking by the "deaf
>> child sign" but he doesn't "appear" deaf to me, then I am not going to
>> presume he's deaf.
>>
>> I am not meaning to insult any one for choosing to use such a sign, and I
>> don't think any one needs to feel guilty, shamed, or browbeaten for
>> choosing to something they believe protects their child's safety,  nor
>> needs to apologize for it. That was in no way the intent of my original
>> post on this topic, and I apologize if my words came across in that
>> manner.
>> When determining this for ourselves, I ultimately concluded that people
>> may
>> not be able to identify my blind child if she were outside without her
>> cane, but people CAN readily identify children. As I happen to have six
>> young children, it is far more practical that people know to keep aware
>> for
>> little ones in general than my blind child in specific, and with her cane
>> she would require no extra explanation that she is blind. Therefore, when
>> the town wanted to put up a "BLIND CHILD" sign we declined, but my when
>> across the street neighbor told me that he shifted a couple of signs he
>> put
>> up around my next door neighbor's house back when they had four small
>> kids
>> so that they encompassed my house, I smiled and said "thank you". As it
>> is,
>> we live on the corner of a half-forgotten street that dead ends into an
>> even smaller and more forgotten street with only four additional houses.
>> The road is so narrow that only one car can be on it at a time and if
>> there
>> are two cars going in opposite directions, one needs to pull off in a
>> neighbor's yard for the other one to pass by. We have a couple of
>> teenagers
>> in the back who like to hot-rod their way down the road and have friends
>> who like to do the same, but they know us personally because the
>> neighborhood is incredibly small, and they keep a watchful eye for my
>> kids
>> in our yard. I think in reality, even the "Children at Play" sign does
>> nothing practical, but as they were already there, I saw no harm in
>> keeping
>> them.
>>
>> Rene--- mom to six amazing kids, including Miss Clare age 11 (ROP) and
>> Seraphina, 8 months (ONH)
>> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Albert J Rizzi
>> <albert at myblindspot.org>wrote:
>>
>>> Amen and testify Richard. Great post.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Richard
>>> Holloway
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 6:05 PM
>>> To: Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Signs for Susan
>>>
>>> Steve, I appreciate your question. I'm happy to discuss these matters.
>>>
>>> Purely from a driver's standpoint, I expect different reactions from
>>> different situations in a driving environment. In that specific example,
>>> certainly, if the kids were going to be playing, particularly in a
>>> location
>>> where there were limited range of vision for a driver, either sign would
>>> be
>>> appropriate and helpful. In that specific case, kids are indeed playing.
>>> If,
>>> as a driver, you're in an alert status, looking for either "kids at
>>> play",
>>> or a "blind child" you'll probably react safely, so in that case I
>>> suggest
>>> either sign might be helpful.
>>>
>>> Now, put a blind child near the street in a yard or on a sidewalk. I
>>> might
>>> actually expect ANY two-year-old to dart in any direction virtually
>>> randomly, so I would slow down, especially if I didn't see an adult
>>> holding
>>> such a child's hand. But make the child a bit older. 5 or 6 perhaps. A
>>> kid
>>> that age, I believe, would be less likely to jump out in traffic. By
>>> that
>>> age, I more expect kids to be chasing balls without looking, but
>>> otherwise
>>> reasonably attentive. Blind kids at that age, or at least my blind
>>> daughter
>>> was probably MORE likely to bolt into the street than at a more docile
>>> age
>>> 2
>>> or 3. By 6 or 7, she was much more driven to abrupt movement, yet not at
>>> all
>>> clear about the concept of cars coming down the street.
>>>
>>> Now as a 4th grader, my daughter is perhaps slightly less likely to do
>>> something abrupt than at age 6, but still FAR more likely than her
>>> sighted
>>> peers to walk arbitrarily into the street if she looses her bearings.
>>> This
>>> sort of situation is NOT what "child at play" brings to mind.
>>>
>>> When driving, if I see a 10 or 12-year-old walking in a straight line
>>> across
>>> the street, I would not anticipate the child making a sharp turn or
>>> reversal. Most sighted kids I know don't generally do that. My blind
>>> 10-year-old daughter certainly might. Again, from a car driver's
>>> perspective, my daughter's behavior is not what is typical from a child
>>> her
>>> age. A confused driver is, in my opinion, a good deal more likely do do
>>> something dangerous in that sort of situation. I think knowing she's
>>> blind,
>>> might keep her safer from that driver, if only slightly so.
>>>
>>> Most important to me, again, as a driver, I often make eye contact or
>>> exchange gestures with people on the road. I don't know how universal
>>> that
>>> is. Maybe it is a regional thing. Down south, we wave to say "thanks"
>>> when
>>> a
>>> driver lets us merge in front of them, and in fact failing to wave is
>>> often
>>> taken as an insult. We wave people-- both kids and adults, across the
>>> street
>>> all the time, or the pedestrian may wave off the driver. The exchange is
>>> a
>>> very visual business. I slow down sometimes and wait for eye contact to
>>> feel
>>> as sure as I can that I'm aware of a pedestrian's intention. Well if you
>>> "make eye contact with my daughter" what you inferred isn't going to be
>>> very
>>> accurate. I can just imagine the later discussion-- "I saw her, she
>>> looked
>>> right AT me, then she walked right in front of my car!!! I had no idea
>>> she
>>> couldn't see me! I'm so sorry!!!" I feel ill at just the notion. That's
>>> what
>>> I want to avoid with such signs. "Child at Play" is no help there.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, in my situation here, I think that if we were not on SUCH
>>> a
>>> quiet street, I would have already requested signs to protect my
>>> daughter
>>> and minimize potential driver frustration, however, our street is really
>>> VERY quiet, and we watch our daughter very carefully.
>>>
>>> With that said, she's old enough that at some point, I'm going to have
>>> to
>>> give her a little more freedom near the road. If I decide she's not 100%
>>> safe, I reserve the right to request such a sign. I don't want a lot of
>>> flack if I do so.
>>>
>>> As I think I mentioned before, I feel like a deaf child could easily
>>> react
>>> differently as well. If the parents of a deaf child are worried the
>>> child
>>> won't hear certain sounds and it puts them at increased risk, from a
>>> driver's standpoint, I like to know that someone won't react to the
>>> warning
>>> of a horn, for example. In that case, I'd prefer a "deaf child" sign.
>>> The
>>> information is more specific; more useful to keep the child safe.
>>>
>>> The differences are subtle, but important. I think this is a personal
>>> choice
>>> for each parent, and it really concerns me that pressure of any kind is
>>> being exerted by others to avoid somehow casting aspersions on the blind
>>> population by requesting these signs.
>>>
>>> With that said, I also think this is a personal choice for a blind adult
>>> as
>>> well-- a choice the adult makes for himself, mind you. I think what
>>> happened
>>> in Colorado was really inappropriate, because others were deciding this
>>> for
>>> the blind travelers. That doesn't mean if some adults feel safer with
>>> these
>>> signs in place that they should be prevented because it reflects poorly
>>> on
>>> those who don't want the signs. If others disagree, but I feel it is
>>> pest
>>> to
>>> err to the side of caution.
>>>
>>> The social connection you mention is great. If added safety, no matter
>>> how
>>> little it may be, from the sign helps some parents feel slightly more
>>> comfortable letting kids have a little more freedom to play or otherwise
>>> go
>>> about their business, that does indeed increase the chance for these
>>> very
>>> important connections.
>>>
>>> I will add one thing more as well. After giving this a lot of thought, I
>>> think such signs do one thing more. After more than 10 years of
>>> observing
>>> and watching reactions to the "what are you doing letting your blind
>>> child
>>> go and do dangerous things like that" mentality-- crazy things like
>>> riding
>>> a
>>> bike, jumping into a pool without a sighted helper holding onto her,
>>> playing
>>> in and around trampolines, running across the yard, going to gymnastics
>>> classes or yoga classes... maybe some of us like the idea of telling
>>> others
>>> that our kids may be out there and we know it, and they have every right
>>> to
>>> be there, yet we'd appreciate it if they'd be just a little bit extra
>>> careful in case their behavior or reaction to a passing car is a little
>>> different. I'm not inviting a great debate on this matter, and the last
>>> part
>>> (this paragraph) is just a thought that recently occurred to me, but I
>>> think
>>> maybe there is a touch of truth in that for some of us as well.
>>>
>>> Thanks again for the discussion.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>> On Feb 26, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>>
>>> > Richard,
>>> >
>>> > While you and I seem to disagree on this, I would truly like to
>>> > understand your position better.  Are you really saying that the
>>> > two-year-old sighted kids that are racing with her child are totally
>>> > responsible and in need of no protection?  If there is no separation
>>> > between the street and where these kids are playing, I do not see how
>>> > a blind child is going to be at a greater risk, there is some risk for
>>> > all of them and a warning that there are children at play is probably
>>> appropriate.  Connecting her ability to get a sign with the child's
>>> opportunity to play with other kids completely baffles me.  .  The
>>> solution
>>> isn't in the sign, it is in making the social connections, and I, too,
>>> am
>>> glad to see that Susan's child, certainly with her help, made those
>>> connections, but I truly do not see that a sign is necessary to make
>>> that
>>> possible.  Have I misunderstood your note?
>>> >
>>> > Best regards,
>>> >
>>> > Steve Jacobson
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Richard Holloway wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Susan,
>>> >
>>> >> I don't see anything wrong with requesting such a sign for your child
>>> >> at that age, or at any age where you, the parent, feel it
>>> > is appropriate.
>>> >
>>> >> You did a good thing. More parents should find solutions to get their
>>> >> kids, be they sighted or blind, out and playing in
>>> > situations like that!
>>> >
>>> >> (How I wish they'd had jeeps like that when I was a kid!!!)
>>> >
>>> >> Richard
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> On Feb 25, 2013, at 8:39 PM, SUSAN POLANSKY wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>> We moved on to a dead end court when our son was 2. We asked our
>>> >>> town for a sign at the entrance to the street. I feel it was
>>> > totally appropriate to have a sign when our little one was out playing
>>> > with the other kids and basically drag racing the other little ones in
>>> > his toddler jeep. Would we not have asked for a sign if he had been
>>> > older. Each parent needs to look at their child and their neighborhood
>>> and
>>> make their own decision. I think this subject has been beaten to death.
>>> No
>>> more "to sign or not to sign"  emails for me, any more will be deleted
>>> without opening.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Susan T. Polansky
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ________________________________
>>> >>> From: Bernadette Jacobs <bernienfb75 at gmail.com>
>>> >>> To: "Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
>>> >>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 8:11 PM
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] To Sign or not To Sign
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I am a very strong opponent of blind, deaf, Autism, or any other
>>> >>> signage.  None of us needs to be put on that kind of display!  Only
>>> >>> thing this says to me is, "Walking Target!" Target!" Walking Target.
>>> >>> When I had my hysterectomy at an inner city hospital here, when I
>>> >>> came out of surgery and into my room, my husband mentioned to me
>>> >>> that there was a sign on my door, "Blind Patient!"  If I wasn't sick
>>> >>> enough from just having had surgery, I sure was sickened then.  So,
>>> >>> my husband tore down the first sign.  Bright and early next morning
>>> >>> when he came in vack in to visit me, another signed had replaced the
>>> >>> first one.  He went out to find that nurse.  Before long, suddenly I
>>> >>> heard the nurse arguing with my husband.  I forced myself up out of
>>> >>> bed, grabbed my cane and began walking down the hall, holding onto
>>> >>> the rails for dear life and simply excused myself quietly and then
>>> >>> proceeded to waste no bones about how that woman oughtta do
>>> >>> something real quick.  After all, who was her bread and butta???  I
>>> >>> had insurance.  I didn't feel guilty in the least.  She turned on me
>>> >>> and I simply went back to my room; called my doctor at his home; and
>>> >>> Hmmm!  For some strange reason I never heard from or saw that woman
>>> >>> again and the sign soon disappeared.  Then when someone called weeks
>>> >>> after I had been released from the hospital to ask me about how I
>>> >>> felt about my hospital experience, I really laid it on thick that to
>>> >>> post blind signs, or any other Special Needs' sign, would only serve
>>> >>> to identify those individuals as vulnerable walking targets and no
>>> >>> matter what the intent, it was truly a bad idea.  After all, Seems I
>>> >>> actually remember Dr. Jernigan saying once, that "The road to Hell
>>> >>> is paved with good intentions."  I'm sure I need not say more.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Bernie
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On 2/22/13, Carly B <barnesraiser at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>> Hi Merry-Noel,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I've thought about this, too. There are a couple of signs on
>>> >>>> streets near our own. We have not pursued trying to get a sign for
>>> >>>> our neighborhood. I haven't really thought that through, I think
>>> >>>> it's just a gut feeling that I don't want to put more of a
>>> >>>> spotlight
>>> on
>>> my child than there already is.
>>> >>>> Know what I mean? I'm not really sure the benefits of having a
>>> >>>> sign...
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Thanks for bringing it up. I look forward to hearing what others
>>> think!
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> :) Carolynn
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 7:40 PM, Merry-Noel Chamberlain
>>> >>>> <owinm at yahoo.com>wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>   Hi,
>>> >>>>> My daughter, Ashleah, is working on a girl scout project and would
>>> >>>>> like to know your thoughts about the "Special Needs" sign.  She is
>>> >>>>> blind and walks to and from school independently.  Do you think
>>> >>>>> having a Special Needs sign by our house is a good thing?  Why or
>>> >>>>> why not?
>>> >>>>> Thanks.
>>> >>>>> Merry-Noel
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> " I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up
>> where I needed to be."
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