[blindkid] Silent cars and warning signs.

Richard Holloway rholloway at gopbc.org
Wed Feb 27 16:12:48 UTC 2013


You are entirely incorrect in your suggestion that I put ANY additional trust in the drivers of vehicles where my daughter's safety is concerned. Kindly do not presume to know where I put my trust, though you might remember that neighborhood signs advise strangers and remind friends and neighbors as well.

I know with certainty that not a single driver without the information on such a sign can use such information to drive more safely. That is a simple fact. Signs may help some children in some situations. They may not. If a parent feels it may help, I believe they should request and use these signs. I haven't told anyone to be less careful about their kids with such signs up.

If I'm following your post correctly, you agree quiet cars are a problem, you don't think blind people have suggested signage as a solution, and so far there is no effective solution. Once again, how does this prove signage would not help? You point out that people, including blind people have been struck and sometimes killed by cars and not all of them have been quiet cars. Agreed. All cars can be dangerous and pose hazards to adults and children, blind and sighted. I simply suggest that if a child cannot see a car, is not trained to hear a car safely, or in the case of quiet cars simply cannot hear a car soon enough (if at all) it poses an increased risk to that child. Surely it is a greater risk to the sighted in some cases as well, though I don't think it is proportionally so.

Revisiting one particular point in your last post, 

> That I am aware of, no part of the solution championed by blind people as a group has been signage.

I was not aware that only good ideas about the safety of blind people can come FROM blind people. Has that been established here or anywhere? I don't think that my vision disqualifies me as a competent judge of safety for my children. Your vision surely does not seem to prevent you from telling me and others what a poor idea signs are for our kids.

I continue to be amazed at the vast numbers of posts explaining what such signage fails to do with absolutely no supporting evidence offered. Why don't you demonstrate how it will NOT help.  Kindly cite your studies or other reference sources instead of suggesting I would put "blind pedestrian" signs on my child or on anyone. Your comments are insulting, condescending  and demeaning.

Do you actually believe that if any sign of any kind might have spared even one of the incidents you referenced from happening to anyone it would not have been worthwhile? My concerns for the context of this discussion are about keeping blind kids safe. There may be many other ways to keep kids and adults, blind and sighted safer. I welcome and encourage anyone to do whatever they can to keep people safer in the world. None of this demonstrates to my satisfaction a reason parents should feel badly about, or avoid posting such signs. 

Find me one single case where after an accident, it was discovered that such a sign CAUSED an accident. "I'm so sorry, I was driving safely, but then I read the caution sign about blind kids and it made me accelerate and veer into that child holding that 'stick' ". It isn't going to happen.

Maybe you'll find proof that accidents happened despite reading a warning or because the warning was overlooked. What does that mean? It means the sign didn't help in that particular case. Nothing more.

Shouting a flawed idea louder than I can or more times than I do it does not improve the quality of the flawed idea. I think the key objection to these signs is actually because a group of people just doesn't like them. Many people seem to think similar signs without the word "blind" are just fine to use. Do a particular group of blind adults have complete control of the use of the term "blind"? I must not have gotten that memo. In a way, this comes down to a freedom of speech issue, so let me try that approach: 

I can tell anyone I want that my child is blind for whatever reason I want through any lawful means, and so can anyone else where their blind child is concerned. Does anyone want to take issue with that statement?

I don't like it when people come on strong about these matters. particularly when the harsh and admonishing comments are directed towards mostly parents newer to dealing with these matters, i.e. when parents of younger kids are made to feel like they have made poor decisions where their children are concerned. I think most of us have plenty of battles like that to deal with already with schools and other places and people trying to tell us how to raise our blind kids. Clearly, parents have posted these signs, or are wanting to have these signs posted in some cases, and they are being told this is inappropriate but there appears to be no factual basis to these "electronic signs" that are being posted here, in this forum, to try and stop the parents from using these signs. That is, of corse what is happening-- People are posting lots and lots of signs telling us what kinds of signs we should not post. Ironic, to say the least.

You may have overlooked the fact that I have no such signs posted, nor have I requested them for my child. I continue to think signs of this nature are not needed in our particular situation, at this particular time. Yet, once again, I reserve the right to post such signs if and when I deem it appropriate.

 I don't think any of this is reflective of any particular fear to of mine needing to be addressed, though I certainly appreciate your free, unsolicited psychoanalysis.

I believe your last post underscores why a number of parents here have indicated they feel attacked for expressing their views in what they have previously come to feel is generally a safe environment to discuss views and concerns regarding their blind children.

I'm not much of a fan of persecution. 

Richard




On Feb 27, 2013, at 10:02 AM, Carrie Gilmer wrote:

> Richard,
> Quiet cars are indeed a problem, as is pedestrian safety...since even horse and buggy days, and as evidenced by the NFB's organizational push these last years, people here on this list are aware and take quiet cars seriously. that said, I personally know three blind persons (all adults and I believe not near home as within a block or two) injured by cars, but only one was by a quiet car. i know one killed by a car, also it was not a quiet car. And he was an older man, fairly large in size, who had crossed that street a million times or more and was still in plenty use of his faculties to do it safely on his end. also here in Minneapolis the one child injured by a quiet car so far was a sighted child on a bike. That I am aware of, no part of the solution championed by blind people as a group has been signage. Can we signage the world? Perhaps you would like the idea of the neon vest "blind pedestrian"....
> 
> It feels to me you are exceptionally emotionally touched by this. and it sounds to me in your logic and rationale and claims that you are MORE (as an "added" layer of protection) willing to put your daughter's safety into the trust of drivers who are complete strangers, whom you have no control whatsoever over, and can never ever predict individually...to follow a sign near your home in the few seconds she is away from arm's reach or your back is turned. this leaves the rest of the world open. How many layers are needed to ensure she will be safe from cars. The only possible solution I can think of that is a guarantee is to never let her out. And of course never ride in a car, that can be very dangerous.  even a sighted guide can make a mistake. heck a sighted woman pedestrian here was killed standing on the sidewalk by a drunk driver...however staying home has its risks as well as any statistician will tell you, statistically most emergency room injuries happen in the home is what I have heard.
> 
> It feels to me like something more, like fear, needs addressing. 
> Respectfully,
> Carrie
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Feb 27, 2013, at 12:37 AM, Richard Holloway <rholloway at gopbc.org> wrote:
> 
>> Heather, I am curious-- when you suggest:
>> 
>>> If a child, blind or sighted, cannot be trusted to act reliably playing or crossing busy streets unsupervised, then they need to be supervised  by a responsible adult who knows the child's developmental level and likelihood of putting themselves in danger. The adult can then prevent the child from injury
>> 
>> Your point is well taken, but I am left particularly to wonder how silent (or nearly silent) cars factor in?
>> 
>> Also, I continue to stress that my personal take on the these signs is nothing close to a replacement for appropriate adult supervision. They are an added safeguard, just in case we can't be in the exact right spot at the exact right moment. So many seem fine with the concept of "child at play" signs, which would tend to indicate that parents of these kids must be at least a step or two away from their kids at times (or they would ned no signs), but apparently we parents of blind children are to be held to an "arm's reach" standard or the like so we can always redirect our kids until they have fully mastered their O&M skills. That seems unrealistic somehow.
>> 
>> All that aside, what can we do to keep our kids safe in a world with ever increasing numbers of quieter and quieter cars?  (And how can blind adults do likewise for themselves, for that matter?) If we can't manage to deal with quiet cars safely, the other issues seem to be potentially less and less important, as the percentage of quieter cars on the road grows each year.
>> 
>> It strikes me that if we cannot teach our blind children to listen for [nearly silent] cars, we are pretty much left with the option of trying to alert the quiet cars to blind pedestrians. Do you have an alternative to suggest?
>> 
>> I suppose we can all decide it is just too dangerous and closely supervise our children indefinitely, but at some point these kids will become adults and we parents will get too old to help them across the street. Fact of the matter is, I'm sort of hoping Kendra will be able to help ME across the street many years from now...
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