[blindkid] Dealing with selfish behavior

[Traci W via blindkid]

Agree. I love her personality for when she is an adult, it will take her far. She is outgoing, curious, thrill seeking etc. Her personality at age 9 just pushes me over the edge!!  She is very social, she has no issues with that, she just prefers adults. I want her to make friends easier but it is a struggle with those her age. I continue the search to find a happy medium. 

Traci


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 2, 2014, at 11:52 AM, Marianne Denning via blindkid <blindkid at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I think everyone has great points but it doesn't really matter why she is
> controlling.  Traci wants to help her daughter change her behavior.  I can't
> control anyone's behavior but my own.  Her daughter's controlling
> personality may just be part of who she is.  It can be a good quality wwhen
> her daughter learns to use it in the right situations.  
> 
> Again, each of us, blind, sighted... have personality traits that we
> struggle with throughout life.  They are all part of who we are.  Our
> disability may cause us to use these traits to manage our world but that can
> backfire on us. We try to substitute behaviors that give positive results
> for those that cause negative results. 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Richard
> Holloway via blindkid
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2014 11:40 AM
> To: Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Dealing with selfish behavior
> 
> A number of good points have been made in this discussion. In my experience
> with our (blind, no light perception) 11-year-old, I think Arielle makes
> some especially accurate observations. 
> 
> Many of our kids spend far more time working with, and being closely
> supervised by adults than many typically-sighted kids. Think about it- how
> much more one-on-one instruction does your blind child get that his/her
> sighted peers? That may help with a lot of things, but helping with
> peer-to-peer social interaction is likely not a among them- quite the
> contrary.
> 
> Meanwhile, in social situations, how much LESS time does your child spend
> interacting? I know my daughter has spent an awful lot of time waiting to
> have chances to socially interact than would be ideal. I suspect that is
> largely because she has to wait for opportunities to present themselves, and
> they are often harder to make happen with her effort because other kids have
> to be willing to interact as well. Unfortunately, the problem is
> self-perpetuating.  Due (in part) to lack of experience, our kids may be
> less successfully socially than average. Due to this lack of social success,
> our kids may have even fewer further opportunities to interact socially as
> well. 
> 
> Sighted peers are faced with a choice: Either make an extra effort to
> interact with a potentially challenging social situation, or hang with the
> sighted kids and play with very little effort. Blind kids often have fewer
> choices in these areas, but the choice (when no kids offer to interact) is
> to withdraw and do nothing, or to press hard to try and force opportunities.
> Neither of those would seem to be ideal.
> 
> Meanwhile, other factors, like needing to be pulled out of class for O&M,
> TVI instruction, extended testing time, and other added instruction to
> compensate for areas of concern where visual instruction needs to be
> adapted, plus any other alternative needs our kids may have, cause the
> social part of the puzzle to become more and more confounding, and our kids
> can quickly become increasingly frustrated, leading to many of them acting
> out in response to a lack of control in their lives. 
> 
> This, combined with missing information in-general, means, in some cases, a
> much increased chance of having bossy kids, and in other situations, very
> socially withdrawn kids. (Sometimes you can also get an interesting
> combination of the two.)
> 
> I remember Joe Cutter, perhaps my all-time favorite source of O&M
> information and provider of many great clues for strategies in raising a
> blind child in-general, pointing to how a young blind child needs a chance
> to explore playground equipment hands-on, before trying to use it
> effectively. One specific example he offered was kids waiting to go down a
> slide for the first time. Without pre-exploring the slide, a blind child is
> at a severe disadvantage, due to lack of experience and missing information.
> Even if this were the very first time any child in the whole queue had used
> a slide, most sighted kids waiting in the same line have practiced gong down
> a slide in their mind many times. They have watched it from across the park,
> perhaps for years. They have seen it on TV. They have seen it driving down
> the road when passing a park or a school yard. They have watched their
> neighbors doing it. There are nearly countless ways these kids have been
> seeing and practicing doing this in their minds, and in fact each sighted
> child does the same thing again as they wait their turn in the line just
> before they go- sort of getting "warmed up" before using the slide.
> 
> So what is going to happen next? The sighted child has practiced sliding in
> their mind dozens, hundreds, or perhaps even thousands of times. The blind
> child gets helped up a ladder (or sometimes just plopped at the platform) to
> a mysterious inclined plane which they are told is going to be fun to slide
> down. If they are fortunate, maybe they got to spend a few moments feeling
> the slide from the bottom, and side to offer a slight clue as to what this
> "sliding board" may be.
> 
> This situation and process isn't just about young kids and slides; not in
> the least. Sighted people often practice and imagine how to do new things
> over and over before they do them, based on visual observation. Our blind
> kids are missing that experience, and need to have as much of that missing
> information filled in for them as possible.
> 
> How do kids socially interact? How do we learn this? Well, for many of us,
> as sighted people, we grew up observing other social interactions- at
> school, at home, at church, at the playground, in the mall, on the street,
> on TV. you name it... Take that same pool of experience and remove all
> visual cues and information. Not how does this situation play out for
> sighted people?
> 
> Should there be consequences for social misconduct for a blind child? Sure
> there should, because it is indeed part of the learning process, but there
> has to be a way to compensate for missing information factored in, and
> hopefully a process to compensate for the missing information as well. It
> takes a LONG time for blind kids to amass enough information to begin to
> catch up with the social body of knowledge their sighted peers have build
> throughout their lives.
> 
> If your child is like mine, what is happening when there is
> less-than-optimum social behavior, is that sighted people- kids and adults
> alike, stop and stare. And they probably do this pretty much silently. What
> are they doing? Well, a couple of things. One thing is they are learning-
> they are gathering information about socially undesirable behavior. Put a
> well behaving blind child in the situation (a bystander with a misbehaving
> child, be the misbehaving child blind or sighted) and they will be gathering
> zero visual input, unless someone describes the situation. We have to adapt
> this learning opportunity.
> 
> Now what about the blind child in this situation who is acting out socially?
> Do they know they are causing a disturbance? Do they know they are being
> rude, or at least how rude they are actually being? Probably not- at least
> not the full extent of their social transgression, because people tend not
> to explain this. We generally don't talk about these matters. Society
> considers it rude to discuss such things- we are groomed our entire lives to
> silently observe the "shame" of the event. Little old ladies walk of in
> silence shaking their heads- things like that. Still, a sighted child would
> have the visual feedback, and know there was something odd going on.
> 
> Take a much more subtle example- do something slightly socially
> inappropriate. Make a private comment a little too close to others such that
> it is overheard. Talk too loud in a library. Or here is a favorite of mine-
> stare at people for no particular reason. 
> 
> No, my daughter doesn't "stare", but her prosthetic eyes appear to do so.
> Well, staring is perceived as rude. So is failing to react visually to
> people's glances and gestures. That's why many autistic kids are perceived
> as being rude. Their failure to make eye contact is perceived as rude
> conduct. That means many of our blind kids appear to be acting rudely to
> sighted kids from the start. And it isn't like I can teach my daughter not
> to look like she is staring, unless I have her close her eyes (absurd) or
> make her wear sunglasses, and we're not hiding those beautiful eyes to avoid
> offending the occasional concerned individual...
> 
> Should these sighted kids "know better" in some of these situations? Perhaps
> not. (Though their parents probably should.) Who is educating these kids?
> "Mommy, why is that girl staring?. And why does that girl have a stick?".
> How do you react to that? Personally, I respond by saying (politely, or so I
> try to be) "she's not staring at you, her eyes are different than yours and
> she cannot see you- she's blind." or "that 'stick' is her white cane. her
> eyes work differently than yours, so she cannot see things, and her cane
> helps her know where she is going- it sort of helps her her 'see' how to get
> around like your eyes do for you."
> 
> Of corse, my action isn't entirely socially appropriate either, because most
> of us today are given to think we should not engage other's children in
> conversation. I've been doing this for most of the last 12 years, and so
> far, not one single person has said anything to me for doing this sort of
> thing. I surmise they are too freaked out about the blind child.
> 
> This hopefully educates a few kids, and it models what my daughter has to
> learn (and now is beginning to demonstrate)-- that she will have to explain
> things about herself that others don't understand, if she hopes to fit in.
> This is a slow process.
> 
> What I have seen from too many parents of these curious sighted kids is
> examples of parents scolding and reprimanding their kids when they do little
> things, like waving their hand in front of my daughter's face as they try to
> determine why my daughter doesn't react. Well, here's a thought: Kids are
> naturally curious- especially young ones. I know things have changed a lot
> in the last 40 or 50 years, but I cannot recall KNOWINGLY seeing a single
> blind or visually impaired child until I was WELL into high school, and not
> once, EVER was I told as a child how to react to a blind kid. Honestly, I
> was one of those people who would see a blind adult walking with a cane, and
> I'd not know what to do to get out of their way. It didn't occur to me to
> just say, "hello". then they'd know I was there, maybe say hello back, and
> know to walk around me. It seems really simple now, but it never dawned on
> me.
> 
> It never occurred to me that a blind child would need a little cane, right
> up until I had a blind child of my own. that's just the honest truth. How in
> the world should a small child with no CLUE what a white cane means know why
> my daughter is "staring at them"?
> 
> Shouldn't this be a teaching moment for the sighted child? Absolutely it
> should, but what it becomes instead (all too often) is a socially awkward
> moment where the parent of the sighted child basically freaks out and has no
> idea how to react. These are probably the same parents who now, when my
> child is entering middle school, will ask me ABOUT her, instead of saying
> "hi" to her, like they probably would to a typical sighted middle school
> child.
> 
> My long-winded point is, I suppose, that often our blind kids are too
> socially isolated, and it exaggerates problems which are bound to exist in
> the first place due to a lack of information for the blind child, and often
> as well to misinformation and a failure by teachers and society to educate
> the sighted population as to what is appropriate behavior. 
> 
> With respect, I disagree that we cannot "rescue" our kids. The 'rescue'
> process, is teaching our kids what is going on, why, and wherever possible,
> teaching the kids around our own children what is going on as well.
> Hopefully we are there to help in this process (or there are caring,
> concerned professionals in our absence at school, doing so).
> 
> Our kids do make choices, but they are still in need of feedback and
> information to learn well from these choices. If my daughter is making a
> spectacle of herself, so long as she is calm enough to hear what I am saying
> (and at least partially process it), I have no problem explaining to her
> that she is causing 8 nearby children (or adults-- whatever the case may be)
> to stop and stare at her, and that I suspect it is because they cannot
> understand why she is behaving rudely, etc. Interestingly, this also has the
> added benefit of causing most of those stopping to stare (also pretty rude,
> if you ask me) to move right along.
> 
> On a sidebar, I also point out fellow cane travelers to her, so she knows
> she isn't the only blind person walking around. I tend to do this in a way
> that lets the other cane traveler know that I'm not singling them out-
> "Kendra, there's a person waking by with a cane like yours", seems to work
> fairly well, and sometimes invites a discussion with a stranger that would
> probably not be possible for her otherwise. Sometimes, she is asking what
> the sound is. "That's someone with a white cane, like yours." Things like
> that...
> 
> Back to the social situations- if she's too much in a crisis, then often a
> "de-briefing" after the fact will be in order. I have even, on occasion,
> recorded her behavior and played it back for her (in private) later. She has
> been quite amazed to hear what she said and did in situation like that.
> Sometimes it upsets her, but these are things to work through. Is she
> embarrassed to hear the recordings? Probably so, but she needs the
> information to learn. And in many situations, recorded, or out in the real
> live world, I will ask her if she hears any other children doing (fill in
> the blank) when she is acting up. "There are 20 other kids playing on this
> playground and you're the only one who is doing. (again, fill in the
> blank)". It works pretty well for us here.
> 
> Maybe we are just saying the same thing in different ways. Teachable
> moments? Absolutely, but my daughter is entitled to full disclosure all
> throughout the process. As a sighted parent, too often it is easy to
> overlook the fact that my daughter is simply working with less information
> than I am, and my job is to equalize that in all ways reasonably possible.
> The good news is that, as she gets older, the disparity in information she
> gathers seems to be improving slightly- she is learning to adapt and
> anticipate based on experience. 
> 
> I think it is also worth underscoring that we can't put this ALL on our own
> kids, to even blame their own blindness for these challenges. I'm not in
> denial here. I get that much of the responsibility for social outcomes
> ultimately falls on our kids and their choices, but I'm also cognizant that
> some kids make it much harder on our kids than is reasonable, probably
> because they too are not properly socially informed. (Is that better than
> blaming their parents outright?)
> 
> A little kid waving a hand in my kid's face to confirm that she isn't
> reacting is one thing. (See under teachable moments.) On the other hand,
> taking food off my kid's plate at lunch, knowing that she cannot see it,
> isn't acceptable. Nor holding up a hand and asking how many fingers he has
> up. Those have both happened to my child (a number of times, especially with
> the "how many fingers" bit), and to kids of many parents on this list.
> Fellow students have even grabbed her cane and taken it on rare occasions.
> All of these things mold our kids behavior, and I suspect they make some of
> our kids react more selfishly than we might prefer.
> 
> Our kids need patience, calm, repetition, consistency, and lots and lots of
> information about the world around them as we work through all of these
> little behavioral concerns.
> 
> As I step down from my soapbox, I bid you all a good day..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jun 1, 2014, at 11:10 PM, via blindkid <blindkid at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Family boundaries still come into play and discussing consequences for
> certain behaviors. When she loses friends, it may be a hard lesson to learn.
> We can't "rescue" them.   It is more painful for us sometime to allow nature
> to take its course.  We need to take the time to discuss, affirm and try
> again.  I tell my son he has to make a choice.  If he doesn't do X, then Z
> will happen.  His room is a lonely place for a period of time.  My hook is
> technology.
>> 
>> 
>> Socially, it has been very difficult, but I find role playing and natural
> consequences help. Teachable moments.  For all our kids we used a support
> system for parenting effectively... so  glad you reached out and don't give
> up!  Things do change.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pui via blindkid <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> To: Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com>; Blind Kid Mailing List, 
>> (for parents of blind children) <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sun, Jun 1, 2014 10:55 pm
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Dealing with selfish behavior
>> 
>> 
>> I have a sighted 9 year old and I could throttle him sometimes! Traci, 
>> hang on in there!
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>>> On Jun 1, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Arielle Silverman via blindkid
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Traci and all,
>>> 
>>> While I think that getting blind kids involved in volunteerism is 
>>> great for many reasons, I'm not sure it really addresses her issues 
>>> with behaving selfishly. I suspect that she is acting this way at 
>>> least in part because it is hard for her to take another's 
>>> perspective, as it is for many kids including myself when I was her 
>>> age. I wonder if requiring her to go along on your or her brother's 
>>> errands, for example, might teach her how obnoxious it is when 
>>> someone else is calling all the shots or making her do things she 
>>> doesn't enjoy doing. It could also be a good way to teach compromise, 
>>> if she has to go along on an outing or activity someone else enjoys 
>>> and she doesn't, but then in return if she is cooperative she can 
>>> choose the next outing or activity for the family.
>>> I also think that sometimes blind kids can put on a bossy front to 
>>> regain control in environments where much of the action is 
>>> inaccessible to them. If all the kids on the playground are playing 
>>> sports that aren't adapted or are excluding a blind child from their 
>>> games, the blind child's best defense may be to come up with 
>>> activities she can do and then demand the other kids join her in 
>>> those activities. It's worth making sure that the popular social 
>>> activities, sports, etc. her peers are participating in are fully 
>>> accessible so she is not limited to just one or two options.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Arielle
>>> 
>>>> On 6/1/14, oandemom . via blindkid <blindkid at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Oooh, I know just the church thrift store where she can do that!  :)
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for the tip!
>>>> 
>>>> Traci
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Marianne Denning 
>>>> <marianne at denningweb.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I had a blind student and her Mom took her to fold and hang clothes 
>>>>> at a church where people can go to get clothing when they need this
> help.
>>>>> It accomplished two things.  The student learned to fold and hang 
>>>>> clothes very well and she learned to give back.  I tell all of my 
>>>>> students that we need to move beyond independence to interdependence.
>>>>> It is important that blind people give back as well as receive.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 6/1/14, oandemom . via blindkid <blindkid at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello!  I have a daughter, 9 and VI, who tends to be bossy and
> selfish.
>>>>> I
>>>>>> feel I have to watch her interact with other children b/c she has 
>>>>>> a
>>>>> strong
>>>>>> personality and she wants to control what is being played.  I do 
>>>>>> my best
>>>>> on
>>>>>> this front.   Lately she has been very selfish, unless it is something
>>>>> that
>>>>>> benefits her, she isn't interested (you would think she is a 
>>>>>> teenager!)
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> its very frustrating.  We talk about how she isn't allowed to 
>>>>>> disrupt our family with her behavior (I do have some guidance from 
>>>>>> a special behavior preschool that she attended but I'm going off 
>>>>>> what I remember back then, but she attended mostly due to her 
>>>>>> social skills) - that she has to be a helpful part of this family 
>>>>>> and do as she is told, etc.  Today, I have
>>>>> been
>>>>>> reduced to making her write something 100 times because I just 
>>>>>> don't know what to do with her anymore.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am trying to find some volunteer opportunities to have her give 
>>>>>> of her time to help others and to think of others, but I know she 
>>>>>> will think it
>>>>> is
>>>>>> fun, b/c she is "working"  - she loves to work.  She may like it 
>>>>>> for 5
>>>>> min
>>>>>> and then be done, so it may actually work out okay, but I need to 
>>>>>> try it.
>>>>>> I thought of soup kitchens, but she won't get that visual effect 
>>>>>> that is what I'm really looking for to make her have an 
>>>>>> appreciation of what she does have.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't really think taking things away from her will work, b/c 
>>>>>> she
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>> even know half the stuff in her room, she is so out of sight, out 
>>>>>> of
>>>>> mind.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Does anyone know of any volunteer activities that they have done 
>>>>>> or seen that a 9 year could be included in and really get something
> out of it.
>>>>> We
>>>>>> talk all the time about how there are many kids who don't have 
>>>>>> what she has, etc etc, but it just doesn't click with her, as I'm 
>>>>>> sure it doesn't for many kids her age.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I would appreciate ANY suggestions!!!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Traci
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> blindkid:
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>>>>> nningweb.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>>>> (513) 607-6053
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Traci Wilkerson
>>>> Cell - 919-971-6526
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