[blindkid] ADA Question

hpscheffer at aol.com hpscheffer at aol.com
Thu Mar 13 15:05:23 UTC 2014


On this issue, is there a specific place where a blind person might find the braille signs? how can they find it, do they have to feel around until they do? unless they are consistently in just one place, i.e. on the right side of a door, or on the door, I can't see my daughter spending time looking for them, but there might be a strategy?
Thanks
Heidi



-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Holloway <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children) <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wed, Mar 12, 2014 11:21 pm
Subject: Re: [blindkid] ADA Question Re:  Music camp? Another alternative!


Carol, I agree that compliance is very important, but it does seem to beg the 
question: Exactly when is a facility in compliance or out?

No Braille and they are clearly not in compliance— that seems simple enough.

Put dymo labels by every doorway. In compliance now? Or must it be permanent? 
(How permanent IS permanent?)

“Temporary" dymo tape with a promise to get “proper" signage later?— that’s what 
we got. Seemed reasonable— at least for the first year or so. We have been told 
for year after year that "the county" has agreed to replace the signage. They 
are going to do so “soon"… Maintenance has promised…. It is on their list….

How many dymo labels have to come down to be "out of compliance"? 
And if they make a decent effort (whatever that actually means) to keep 
replacing the dymo tape as it gets pulled down— does that count?

What about the other end of the spectrum— what if you have seemingly permanent 
signs but the braille dots start falling out?  (Or if other defects appear.) In 
compliance? I suspect not, but now get the BoEd to accept this to be true. (I’m 
not making this up— we saw a whole school filled with such defective signs 
recently.) How many signs have to loose how much braille before they are out of 
compliance? And who is going to notice this before a blind person is there and 
needs the signs to be working?

Maybe our issues are rare. I wonder how many others have dymo tape plastered all 
over their school hallways in lieu of more permanent signage.

Another choice issue for younger students (plus most any any braille-reading 
people in wheelchairs) is that by default, places tend to put the braille 
signage up too high for little kids to read. A typically-sighted three- or four- 
or five-year-old child may be able to read adult-height door numbers just fine, 
but a blind three-year-old’s BRAILLE-reading height is somewhat more limited, so 
you end up with dymo-tape duplication down lower, or our little kids may just as 
well have no signage at all. I’d need to re-read all the ADA materials, but I 
wonder if there is a stipulation for braille for people too short to read 
standard door-plackard-height. I’m guessing there isn’t, but surely since pre-K, 
our daughter has been learning to read door numbers in braille in her school. At 
least as soon as first grade, it was becoming quite important for her to have 
this skill.

And all that aside, are more formal signs the priority to fight over when you 
can’t even get textbook issues resolved properly? Don’t misunderstand me— I want 
EVERYTHING my daughter should have in place at her school all the time, but 
reality is we sometimes have to choose our battles...

As much as this may seem a black-and-white matter initially, I have personally 
run into an amazing number of shades of grey over a number of years… 

On Mar 11, 2014, at 10:24 PM, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Carol,
> 
> Thanks for the clarifications about ADA covering the camp. Going
> slightly off-topic here, but does ADA mandate Braille signs in school
> buildings? If so, why do the vast majority of school buildings I've
> frequented lack Braille signs?
> Arielle
> 
> On 3/11/14, Carol Castellano <carol_castellano at verizon.net> wrote:
>> That is absolutely right.  At first parents fight for their child,
>> but they also must be training the child to stand up for him or
>> herself.  Self-advocacy is a critical skill and knowing our rights
>> and responsibilities is a part of it.  When parents speak about
>> blindness, laws, and civil rights our kids are listening and
>> learning.  We are teaching them the vocabulary and modeling attitudes
>> that they can then use to advocate for themselves.
>> 
>> Carol
>> 
>> Carol Castellano
>> Parents of Blind Children-NJ
>> Director of Programs
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> 973-377-0976
>> carol_castellano at verizon.net
>> www.blindchildren.org
>> www.nfb.org/parents-and-teachers
>> 
>> At 07:27 PM 3/11/2014, you wrote:
>>> Carol, this is great information for parents and students.  Those of
>>> us who are blind adults advocate for ourselves regularly because of
>>> discrimination and I believe it is a critical skill students need to
>>> learn.  Parents are very important advocates for their children but as
>>> your sons anddaughters grow up they need to participate in and
>>> eventually take over advocacy.  The Americans With Disabilities Act is
>>> a very important law that covers us in and out of public schools.
>>> Please learn all you can about this law and help your children
>>> understand it.
>>> 
>>> On 3/11/14, Carol Castellano <carol_castellano at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> Summer camps are places of public accommodation that fall under the
>>>> ADA (except religious camps).  They are not allowed to discriminate
>>>> on the basis of disability.  It is against the law.  A person who is
>>>> "otherwise capable," meaning who meets the other qualifications of
>>>> the camp, such as age or grade or musical interest, cannot be kept
>>>> out solely on the basis of his or her disability.
>>>> 
>>>> Often when an entity such as a school or camp is discriminating,
>>>> those in charge do not realize it.  They might think that they are
>>>> only being practical or ensuring safety.  But the law is crystal
>>>> clear and the camp administration needs to learn that.  I have used
>>>> the phrase, "I'm sure you don't mean to be out of compliance with
>>>> federal law..."  I sometimes mention that the family doesn't WANT to
>>>> file a complaint with the Office on Civil Rights, but if they have
>>>> to, they will...
>>>> 
>>>> Ideally, when a disabled person seeks entrance to this kind of place
>>>> of public accommodation, a conversation is supposed to take place in
>>>> which the camp and the parent/disabled person discuss the
>>>> accommodations or modifications that could be made.
>>>> 
>>>> There are 3 instances in which the disabled person may be
>>>> rejected:  1) if acceptance would cause "undue hardship," defined as
>>>> "significant difficulty or expense;" 2) pose a direct threat to the
>>>> health or safety of others; or 3) alter the fundamental nature of the
>>>> program.
>>>> 
>>>> From a government website http://www.ada.gov/t3hilght.htm :
>>>> 
>>>> "Safety requirements may be imposed only if they are necessary for
>>>> the safe operation of a place of public accommodation. They must be
>>>> based on actual risks and not on mere speculation, stereotypes, or
>>>> generalizations about individuals with disabilities."
>>>> 
>>>> "A public accommodation must make reasonable modifications in its
>>>> policies, practices, and procedures in order to accommodate
>>>> individuals with disabilities."
>>>> 
>>>> "A public accommodation must provide auxiliary aids and services when
>>>> they are necessary to ensure effective communication with individuals
>>>> with hearing, vision, or speech impairments.
>>>> 
>>>> "Auxiliary aids" include such services or devices as qualified
>>>> interpreters, assistive listening headsets, television captioning and
>>>> decoders, telecommunications devices for deaf persons (TDD's),
>>>> videotext displays, readers, taped texts, brailled materials, and
>>>> large print materials."
>>>> 
>>>> "The auxiliary aid requirement is flexible. For example, a brailled
>>>> menu is not required, if waiters are instructed to read the menu to
>>>> blind customers."
>>>> 
>>>> Other informative websites:
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.pacer.org/publications/adaqa/summer.asp
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.acacamps.org/publicpolicy/ada-revisions
>>>> 
>>>> Hope this information helps, and GO GET 'EM, Crystal!!!
>>>> 
>>>> Carol
>>>> 
>>>> Carol Castellano
>>>> Parents of Blind Children-NJ
>>>> Director of Programs
>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>>> 973-377-0976
>>>> carol_castellano at verizon.net
>>>> www.blindchildren.org
>>>> www.nfb.org/parents-and-teachers
>>>> At 01:32 PM 3/9/2014, you wrote:
>>>>> I just don't think it is right that they are advertising this camp
>>>>> at his public school and then depending on the type of disability,
>>>>> pick and choose who can attend. Why this camp? Because his Band
>>>>> teacher is teaching at it and many of his classmates will be
>>>>> attending. Everyone is talking about it. The teachers made it a
>>>>> topic at his IEP meeting, so public school is indeed involved in my
>>>>> opinion. How can public school allow advertisement of a private camp
>>>>> that would discriminate against students with disabilities?
>>>>> 
>>>>> What are the camps concerns? That he won't be able to navigate the
>>>>> camp, that he won't be able to participate in the recreational
>>>>> activities, and that the camp cannot meet his needs. In my opinion,
>>>>> they are afraid of blindness in general and have little
>>>>> understanding of what it means to be blind. I feel the camp would
>>>>> love for me to go away, that would make it easy for them. I
>>>>> understand that in order to get into the "club" I need to make them
>>>>> feel comfortable and play by their rules. Most importantly, Ben will
>>>>> be paving the way for another blind student in the years to come. As
>>>>> someone once said, it is he opportunity to be equal, and the right
>>>>> to be different. That's what were looking for.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Crystal
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 12:35:21 -0400
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Music camp?  Another alternative!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Eric,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Or should we go head strong into that camp and change perspectives
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> understandings? Thinking being an activist  for change is a great
>>>>>> thing
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> this young man to champion.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If he is clear about what he is up against, and he is clear that
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> supports in place to at least let him take that chance, pushing the
>>>>>> issue
>>>>>> may be worth it in the end.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>> Founder and CEO
>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Like Us on Facebook  LinkedIn  Twitter
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindkid [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>> Calhoun
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:30 PM
>>>>>> To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] Music camp? Another alternative!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Crystal, Eric, someone who knows Braille Music.  Four words for this
>>>>>> Music
>>>>>> Camp: Get, out, of, here!  They don't want Ben to be independent,
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> want him there without a chaperone?  Could we back away from this
>>>>>> camp
>>>>>> altogether?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>> ..
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ..
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sighted and blind people, Eric from Los Angeles.  Here's where you
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> find me: The all-new Stairs to Heaven Christian Line, 712-432-4808,
>>>>>> Room
>>>>>> 9;
>>>>>> the all-new Eric Calhoun Magazine; to subscribe, send a message to
>>>>>> eric at pmpmail.com, with the subject line, "The Eric Calhoun
>>>>>> Magazine.";
>>>>>> talking Dodger Baseball, let's talk Dodgers!:
>>>>>> lets-talk-dodgers-subscribe at emissives.com, or go to
>>>>>> www.emissives.com,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> click on Directory of Lists; my general-interest group,
>>>>>> erics_chat_session-subscribe at emissives.com, or go to
>>>>>> www.emissives.com
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> click on Directory of Lists, and on Facebook at eric at pmpmail.com.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>> Calhoun Magazine is free of charge in your email!  You are the star
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> show!  All we ask is that when you submit a Special Notice, that it
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> free
>>>>>> and legal.  You may also submit articles, Pen Pals, and tidbits.  In
>>>>>> 2014:
>>>>>> Try to be good to each other!
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
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>>>>> 
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.o
>>>>>> rg
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----
>>>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 2013.0.3462 / Virus Database: 3722/7168 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 03/08/14
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
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>>>>> for blindkid:
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/crystal_schu%40hotmail.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for blindkid:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carol.joyce.
>>> castellano%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>> (513) 607-6053
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
>> 
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> 
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