[blindkid] ADA Question
Dan Burke
dburke at cocenter.org
Mon Mar 17 14:46:13 UTC 2014
It's 60 inches.
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marianne Denning
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 7:59 AM
To: Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] ADA Question
Did you mean 66 inches instead of 660 inches? I like it there but it is way too high for children or people in wheelchairs. I know that makes it easy for someone with low vision to read in most circumstances. I would guess, in an elementary school some changes might be made.
On 3/15/14, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
> Yes, there are standards, and the sign is supposed to be on the wall
> adjacent to the door, on the latch side. The "center line" of the
> sign is to be at 660 inches.
>
> Dave
>
>
>>I don't believe it has to be on the left or rightside of the door
>>because that would be hard to make work.
>>
>>Permanent signage is the law. It should contain both braille and
>>large print with good contrast. I believe there are standards. I
>>agree you must pick your battles. I don't mean this to sound crude
>>but welcome to the rest of your daughter's life. Adults who are blind
>>have to pick their battles too. I have to decide when to take a stand
>>and when to let something go. Each of us makes a different choice
>>based on what is most important. Braille signage in your daughter's
>>school may not be important but when she is an adult braille signage
>>in a hotel, hospital or large medical building may be very important.
>>
>>On 3/13/14, hpscheffer at aol.com <hpscheffer at aol.com> wrote:
>> > On this issue, is there a specific place where a blind person
>> might find the
>> > braille signs? how can they find it, do they have to feel around
>> > until they do? unless they are consistently in just one place, i.e.
>> > on the right side of a door, or on the door, I can't see my
>> > daughter spending time
>> looking for
>> > them, but there might be a strategy?
>> > Thanks
>> > Heidi
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Richard Holloway <rholloway at gopbc.org>
>> > To: Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> > <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Wed, Mar 12, 2014 11:21 pm
>> > Subject: Re: [blindkid] ADA Question Re: Music camp? Another
>> > alternative!
>> >
>> >
>> > Carol, I agree that compliance is very important, but it does seem
>> > to beg the
>> > question: Exactly when is a facility in compliance or out?
>> >
>> > No Braille and they are clearly not in compliance-- that seems
>> simple enough.
>> >
>> > Put dymo labels by every doorway. In compliance now? Or must it be
>> > permanent?
>> > (How permanent IS permanent?)
>> >
>> > "Temporary" dymo tape with a promise to get "proper" signage
>> later?-- that's
>> > what
>> > we got. Seemed reasonable-- at least for the first year or so. We
>> > have been told for year after year that "the county" has agreed to
>> > replace the signage.
>> > They
>> > are going to do so "soon"... Maintenance has promised.... It is
>> on their list....
>> >
>> > How many dymo labels have to come down to be "out of compliance"?
>> > And if they make a decent effort (whatever that actually means) to
>> > keep replacing the dymo tape as it gets pulled down-- does that count?
>> >
>> > What about the other end of the spectrum-- what if you have
>> > seemingly permanent signs but the braille dots start falling out?
>> > (Or if other
>> defects appear.)
>> > In
>> > compliance? I suspect not, but now get the BoEd to accept this to
>> > be true.
>> > (I'm
>> > not making this up-- we saw a whole school filled with such
>> > defective signs
>> > recently.) How many signs have to loose how much braille before
>> they are out
>> > of
>> > compliance? And who is going to notice this before a blind person
>> > is there and needs the signs to be working?
>> >
>> > Maybe our issues are rare. I wonder how many others have dymo
>> tape plastered
>> > all
>> > over their school hallways in lieu of more permanent signage.
>> >
>> > Another choice issue for younger students (plus most any any
>> braille-reading
>> > people in wheelchairs) is that by default, places tend to put the
>> > braille signage up too high for little kids to read. A
>> > typically-sighted three- or
>> > four-
>> > or five-year-old child may be able to read adult-height door
>> > numbers just fine, but a blind three-year-old's BRAILLE-reading
>> > height is somewhat more limited, so you end up with dymo-tape
>> > duplication down lower, or our little kids may just as well have no
>> > signage at all. I'd need to re-read all the ADA materials, but I
>> > wonder if there is a stipulation for braille for people too short
>> > to read standard door-plackard-height. I'm guessing there isn't,
>> > but surely since pre-K, our daughter has been learning to read door
>> > numbers in braille in her school. At least as soon as first grade,
>> > it was becoming quite important for her to have this skill.
>> >
>> > And all that aside, are more formal signs the priority to fight
>> > over when you can't even get textbook issues resolved properly?
>> > Don't
>> misunderstand me-- I
>> > want
>> > EVERYTHING my daughter should have in place at her school all the
>> > time, but reality is we sometimes have to choose our battles...
>> >
>> > As much as this may seem a black-and-white matter initially, I have
>> > personally run into an amazing number of shades of grey over a
>> > number of years...
>> >
>> > On Mar 11, 2014, at 10:24 PM, Arielle Silverman
>> <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Carol,
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for the clarifications about ADA covering the camp. Going
>> >> slightly off-topic here, but does ADA mandate Braille signs in
>> >> school buildings? If so, why do the vast majority of school
>> >> buildings I've frequented lack Braille signs?
>> >> Arielle
>> >>
>> >> On 3/11/14, Carol Castellano <carol_castellano at verizon.net> wrote:
>> >>> That is absolutely right. At first parents fight for their
>> >>> child, but they also must be training the child to stand up for
>> >>> him or herself. Self-advocacy is a critical skill and knowing
>> >>> our rights and responsibilities is a part of it. When parents
>> >>> speak about blindness, laws, and civil rights our kids are
>> >>> listening and learning. We are teaching them the vocabulary and
>> >>> modeling attitudes that they can then use to advocate for themselves.
>> >>>
>> >>> Carol
>> >>>
>> >>> Carol Castellano
>> >>> Parents of Blind Children-NJ
>> >>> Director of Programs
>> >>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> >>> 973-377-0976
>> >>> carol_castellano at verizon.net
>> >>> www.blindchildren.org
>> >>> www.nfb.org/parents-and-teachers
>> >>>
>> >>> At 07:27 PM 3/11/2014, you wrote:
>> >>>> Carol, this is great information for parents and students.
>> >>>> Those of us who are blind adults advocate for ourselves
>> >>>> regularly because of discrimination and I believe it is a
>> >>>> critical skill students need to learn. Parents are very
>> >>>> important advocates for their children but as your sons
>> >>>> anddaughters grow up they need to participate in and eventually
>> >>>> take over advocacy. The Americans With Disabilities Act is a
>> >>>> very important law that covers us in and out of public schools.
>> >>>> Please learn all you can about this law and help your children
>> >>>> understand it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 3/11/14, Carol Castellano <carol_castellano at verizon.net> wrote:
>> >>>>> Summer camps are places of public accommodation that fall under
>> >>>>> the ADA (except religious camps). They are not allowed to
>> >>>>> discriminate on the basis of disability. It is against the
>> >>>>> law. A person who is "otherwise capable," meaning who meets
>> >>>>> the other qualifications of the camp, such as age or grade or
>> >>>>> musical interest, cannot be kept out solely on the basis of his
>> >>>>> or her disability.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Often when an entity such as a school or camp is
>> >>>>> discriminating, those in charge do not realize it. They might
>> >>>>> think that they are only being practical or ensuring safety.
>> >>>>> But the law is crystal clear and the camp administration needs
>> >>>>> to learn that. I have used the phrase, "I'm sure you don't
>> >>>>> mean to be out of compliance with federal law..." I sometimes
>> >>>>> mention that the family doesn't WANT to file a complaint with
>> >>>>> the Office on Civil Rights, but if they have to, they will...
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Ideally, when a disabled person seeks entrance to this kind of
>> >>>>> place of public accommodation, a conversation is supposed to
>> >>>>> take place in which the camp and the parent/disabled person
>> >>>>> discuss the accommodations or modifications that could be made.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> There are 3 instances in which the disabled person may be
>> >>>>> rejected: 1) if acceptance would cause "undue hardship,"
>> >>>>> defined as "significant difficulty or expense;" 2) pose a
>> >>>>> direct threat to the health or safety of others; or 3) alter
>> >>>>> the fundamental nature of the program.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> From a government website http://www.ada.gov/t3hilght.htm :
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "Safety requirements may be imposed only if they are necessary
>> >>>>> for the safe operation of a place of public accommodation. They
>> >>>>> must be based on actual risks and not on mere speculation,
>> >>>>> stereotypes, or generalizations about individuals with disabilities."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "A public accommodation must make reasonable modifications in
>> >>>>> its policies, practices, and procedures in order to accommodate
>> >>>>> individuals with disabilities."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "A public accommodation must provide auxiliary aids and
>> >>>>> services when they are necessary to ensure effective
>> >>>>> communication with individuals with hearing, vision, or speech
>> >>>>> impairments.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "Auxiliary aids" include such services or devices as qualified
>> >>>>> interpreters, assistive listening headsets, television
>> >>>>> captioning and decoders, telecommunications devices for deaf
>> >>>>> persons (TDD's), videotext displays, readers, taped texts,
>> >>>>> brailled materials, and large print materials."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "The auxiliary aid requirement is flexible. For example, a
>> >>>>> brailled menu is not required, if waiters are instructed to
>> >>>>> read the menu to blind customers."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Other informative websites:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> http://www.pacer.org/publications/adaqa/summer.asp
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> http://www.acacamps.org/publicpolicy/ada-revisions
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hope this information helps, and GO GET 'EM, Crystal!!!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Carol
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Carol Castellano
>> >>>>> Parents of Blind Children-NJ
>> >>>>> Director of Programs
>> >>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> >>>>> 973-377-0976
>> >>>>> carol_castellano at verizon.net
>> >>>>> www.blindchildren.org
>> >>>>> www.nfb.org/parents-and-teachers At 01:32 PM 3/9/2014, you
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>> I just don't think it is right that they are advertising this
>> >>>>>> camp at his public school and then depending on the type of
>> >>>>>> disability, pick and choose who can attend. Why this camp?
>> >>>>>> Because his Band teacher is teaching at it and many of his
>> >>>>>> classmates will be attending. Everyone is talking about it.
>> >>>>>> The teachers made it a topic at his IEP meeting, so public
>> >>>>>> school is indeed involved in my opinion. How can public school
>> >>>>>> allow advertisement of a private camp that would discriminate
>> >>>>>> against students with disabilities?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> What are the camps concerns? That he won't be able to navigate
>> >>>>>> the camp, that he won't be able to participate in the
>> >>>>>> recreational activities, and that the camp cannot meet his
>> >>>>>> needs. In my opinion, they are afraid of blindness in general
>> >>>>>> and have little understanding of what it means to be blind. I
>> >>>>>> feel the camp would love for me to go away, that would make it
>> >>>>>> easy for them. I understand that in order to get into the
>> >>>>>> "club" I need to make them feel comfortable and play by their
>> >>>>>> rules. Most importantly, Ben will be paving the way for
>> >>>>>> another blind student in the years to come.
>> >>>>>> As
>> >>>>>> someone once said, it is he opportunity to be equal, and the
>> >>>>>> right to be different. That's what were looking for.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Crystal
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 12:35:21 -0400
>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Music camp? Another alternative!
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Eric,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Or should we go head strong into that camp and change
>> >>>>>>> perspectives and understandings? Thinking being an activist
>> >>>>>>> for change is a great thing for this young man to champion.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> If he is clear about what he is up against, and he is clear
>> >>>>>>> that there are supports in place to at least let him take
>> >>>>>>> that chance, pushing the issue may be worth it in the end.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> >>>>>>> Founder and CEO
>> >>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> >>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> >>>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>> >>>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>> >>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt
>> >>>>>>> the one who is doing it."
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Like Us on Facebook LinkedIn Twitter
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>>>> From: blindkid [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>> >>>>>>> Of Eric Calhoun
>> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:30 PM
>> >>>>>>> To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] Music camp? Another alternative!
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Crystal, Eric, someone who knows Braille Music. Four words
>> >>>>>>> for this Music
>> >>>>>>> Camp: Get, out, of, here! They don't want Ben to be
>> >>>>>>> independent, don't want him there without a chaperone? Could
>> >>>>>>> we back away from this camp altogether?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Eric
>> >>>>>>> ..
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ..
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Sighted and blind people, Eric from Los Angeles. Here's
>> >>>>>>> where you can find me: The all-new Stairs to Heaven Christian
>> >>>>>>> Line, 712-432-4808, Room 9; the all-new Eric Calhoun
>> >>>>>>> Magazine; to subscribe, send a message to eric at pmpmail.com,
>> >>>>>>> with the subject line, "The Eric Calhoun Magazine."; talking
>> >>>>>>> Dodger Baseball, let's talk Dodgers!:
>> >>>>>>> lets-talk-dodgers-subscribe at emissives.com, or go to
>> >>>>>>> www.emissives.com, and click on Directory of Lists; my
>> >>>>>>> general-interest group,
>> >>>>>>> erics_chat_session-subscribe at emissives.com, or go to
>> >>>>>>> www.emissives.com and click on Directory of Lists, and on
>> >>>>>>> Facebook at eric at pmpmail.com.
>> >>>>>>> The
>> >>>>>>> Eric
>> >>>>>>> Calhoun Magazine is free of charge in your email! You are
>> >>>>>>> the star of the show! All we ask is that when you submit a
>> >>>>>>> Special Notice, that it is free and legal. You may also
>> >>>>>>> submit articles, Pen Pals, and tidbits.
>> >>>>>>> In
>> >>>>>>> 2014:
>> >>>>>>> Try to be good to each other!
>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>> >>>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >>>>>>> info for
>> >>>>>>> blindkid:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblin
>> dspot.o
>> >>>>>>> rg
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> -----
>> >>>>>>> No virus found in this message.
>> >>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> >>>>>>> Version: 2013.0.3462 / Virus Database: 3722/7168 - Release Date:
>> >>>>>>> 03/08/14
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>> >>>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >>>>>>> info
>> >>>>>> for blindkid:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/crystal_schu%40
>> hotmail.com
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>> blindkid mailing list
>> >>>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >>>>>> info for blindkid:
>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carol.joyce.
>> >>>> castellano%40gmail.com
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> blindkid mailing list
>> >>>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >>>>> info for
>> >>>>> blindkid:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/marianne%40denn
>> ingweb.com
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>> >>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>> >>>> (513) 607-6053
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> blindkid mailing list
>> >>>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >>>> info for blindkid:
>> >>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carol.joyce.cas
>> tellano%40gmail.com
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> blindkid mailing list
>> >>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>> for
>> >>> blindkid:
>> >>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gma
>> il.com
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> blindkid mailing list
>> >> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >> for
>> > blindkid:
>> >>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gop
>> bc.org
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > blindkid mailing list
>> > blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> > for
>> > blindkid:
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/hpscheffer%40
>> > aol.com
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > blindkid mailing list
>> > blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> > for
>> > blindkid:
>> >
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/marianne%40denn
>> ingweb.com
>> >
>>
>>
>>--
>>Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>(513) 607-6053
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindkid:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/marianne%40denni
> ngweb.com
>
--
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053
_______________________________________________
blindkid mailing list
blindkid at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/dburke%40cocenter.org
More information about the BlindKid
mailing list