From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Dec 2 20:32:37 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:32:37 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: ________________________________ From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:10 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:09 PM To: nedy at wyjlaw.com; newmedia at ja.org; Neysas at dnfsb.gov; Maurer, Patricia; nijc at aol.com; nlove at opd.state.md.us; nmcconnell at jackscamp.com; noconnell at tabinc.org; noryrp at cox.net; nromulus at gmail.com; ntb at boglechang.com; ocaaba at cox.net; omanager at lawyerscomm.org; palsd at hotmail.com; patel at fr.com; patsyy at bellnunnally.com; pchanster at yahoo.com; pchapman at koonz.com; pgrewal at daycasebeer.com; pkim at lordbissell.com; Maurer, Patricia; pmorrison at state.wv.us; poppy.johnston at unlv.edu; president at abaw.org Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION OFFICE OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEY POSITIONS GS-0905 -13/14/15 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER:08-CRM-OIA-044 This vacancy announcement will remain open until all positions are filled. Date posted: 11-28-2008 * VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN Applications must be received by December 8, 2008 Date posted: 11-26-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION OFFICE OF OVERSEAS PROSECUTORIAL DEVELOPMENT, ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY / GS-14 to GS-15 Applications will be accepted until filled. Date posted: 11-26-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION OFFICE OF OVERSEAS PROSECUTORIAL DEVELOPMENT, ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY / GS-14 to GS-15 Applications will be accepted until filled. Date posted: 11-26-2008 * BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES OFFICE OF THE CHIEF COUNSEL (ADMINISTRATION AND ETHICS DIVISION) GENERAL ATTORNEY, GS-905-15 WASHINGTON, DC Applications must be received by December 16, 2008. Date posted: 11-25-2008 * BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES OFFICE OF THE CHIEF COUNSEL (ADMINISTRATION AND ETHICS DIVISION) GENERAL ATTORNEY, GS-905-12/13/14 WASHINGTON, DC Applications must be received by December 16, 2008. Date posted: 11-25-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF COLORADO VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-CO-AUSA-03 This announcement is open until filled. Applications received by close of business (5:00pm Mountain Standard Time) Tuesday, December 2, 2008 will receive first consideration. Date posted: 11-24-2008 * UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA 09-AZ-01 Application closing date December 31, 2008. Date posted: 11-24-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON #2009-2 Applications must be post-marked no later than December 8, 2008. Date posted: 11-21-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF CHIEF COUNSEL / CIVIL LITIGATION SECTION EXPERIENCED ATTORNEYS / GS-11 to GS-14 (PROMOTION POTENTIAL to GS-15) Applications must be received by December 31, 2008. Date posted: 11-21-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF GEORGIA HONORABLE MAXWELL WOOD Vacancy Announcement Number 09-MDGA-02 All application packages must be postmarked no later than Wednesday, November 26, 2008. Date posted: 11-20-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION OFFICE OF OVERSEAS PROSECUTORIAL DEVELOPMENT, ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY / GS-14 to GS-15 (ILA-SURINAME AND GUYANA) Applications will be accepted until position is filled. Date posted: 11-20-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON #2009-1 Applications must be post-marked no later than December 8, 2008. Date posted: 11-18-2008 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 17:49:48 2008 From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:49:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. bar recently Message-ID: <194659.12668.qm@web90304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is for those of you who have taken the D.C. bar recently (within the last couple of years or so.)   As far as writing the essays for the MPT and MEE, what accommodations were given to you? Did they allow you to braille your answers and then read them onto tape or did they make you use a typewriter?   As far as double time, did they make the two-day exam into a four day exam? If so, how did this work? That is, what portions of the test were you given on each day?   Thanks.   Mike From fairall at shellworld.net Wed Dec 3 22:23:47 2008 From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:23:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. bar recently In-Reply-To: <194659.12668.qm@web90304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <194659.12668.qm@web90304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike: Have you considered using a notetaker or laptop for the essay portion of the exam? From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 00:13:32 2008 From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:13:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. bar recently In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <286047.77315.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Leslie,   I thought about that. The packet specifically says no laptops. I guess they're afraid of people cheating or something.   I did think about using my BrailleNote and hooking it up to a printer; but, they may consider it to be similar to a laptop. But, I guess we could say a braillewriter is a typewriter (on the request for accomodations form, it asks yes or no if the applicant is using a typewriter.)   Mike --- On Wed, 12/3/08, Leslie Fairall wrote: From: Leslie Fairall Subject: Re: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. bar recently To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 5:23 PM Hi Mike: Have you considered using a notetaker or laptop for the essay portion of the exam? _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m_b_gilmore%40yahoo.com From keith-vick at msn.com Thu Dec 4 00:55:44 2008 From: keith-vick at msn.com (Keith Vick) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 19:55:44 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] ADA from Canada? In-Reply-To: <000701c8ed22$1059f120$0a02a8c0@everett704e491> References: <000701c8ed22$1059f120$0a02a8c0@everett704e491> Message-ID: Hi, I realize that it has been awhile since this question was posed. The reason why I am answer this question with such a delay is that I went over a case today and thought of the issue posed by Mr. Zufelt's question: does the ADA 'extend' to employer activities in Canada in the provision of services or employment? I think the answer is a maybe. A recent case on this issues is Spector v. Norwegian Cruise Lines, 125 S. Ct. 2169 (2005). In Spector some disabled cruise passengers and their companions--alleging, among other matters, that physical barriers on two of the company's Bahamas-registered ships had denied the disabled passengers access to various facilities. The Supreme Court held that "[a]lthough, in some circumstances, a general statute will not apply, absent a clear statement of congressional intent, to certain aspects of the internal operations of foreign vessels temporarily in United States waters [nevertheless] [t]he cruise ships in question fell within Title III's definitions of 'public accommodation' and 'specified public transportation.'" (emphasis added). Hence, some parts of the ADA do apply to events occurring outside the territory of United States. However, this does not mean that Title I (employment) would likewise apply to employer activities in Canada. A court could distinguish employment activities in Canada from the facts in Spector on several factual basis: employment activities v. public accommodations, Canadian soil v. temporary docking in US waters, etc. Please keep in mind that I am not an attorney. I am merely a law student interested in the ADA. Also, I am not providing legal advice with this email. I am merely discussing legal issues. For legal advice, find a competent attorney. I hope this helps. Keith Vick -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces+keith-vick=msn.com at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces+keith-vick=msn.com at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:13 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] ADA from Canada? Good evening, I have to admit that living in Canada I am quite unfamiliar with the powers and jurisdiction of the ADA. Does the ADA assist individuals from other countries who are discriminated against by U.S. companies in the provision of services or employment? Thanks, Everett _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw/keith-vick%40msn.com From everett at zufelt.ca Thu Dec 4 01:28:09 2008 From: everett at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 21:28:09 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] ADA from Canada? References: <000701c8ed22$1059f120$0a02a8c0@everett704e491> Message-ID: <000801c955af$913817e0$0e02a8c0@everett704e491> Good evening Keith, Thanks for the information. With the ever increasing globalization of commerce and employment these issues are very important to be studied and discussed. I think that there are definitely pros to having a comprehensive disabillity statute like the ADA. However, one of the weaknesses is in the negotiations and compromises that come out of the process of creating the statute. In Canada we definitely have nothing as comprehensive as the ADA. Nevertheless, we do have general human rights statutes in each jurisdiction which incorporate disability as one of the grounds that cannot be discriminated against. A lot more work in some cases to prove that the general applies to the specific, however, less barriers in that we do not have specifics that "specifically" prevent actions in particular areas. Giving a bit of freedom to the courts to use reason in their application of the law, novel idea. We, at least in the jurisdictions I have studied, do not have a specific wording of "public accomodations" but more genearally "provision of services". That being said we have nothing that explicitly prevents information systems from being inaccessible to individuals with disabilities. Although it has never been tested, I imagine that "provision of services" would be extended to encompass Internet retail or service provision, that is if the issue wasn't privately settled first. Thanks, Everett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Vick" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:55 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA from Canada? > Hi, > > > > I realize that it has been awhile since this question was posed. The > reason > why I am answer this question with such a delay is that I went over a case > today and thought of the issue posed by Mr. Zufelt's question: does the > ADA > 'extend' to employer activities in Canada in the provision of services or > employment? > > > > I think the answer is a maybe. A recent case on this issues is Spector v. > Norwegian Cruise Lines, 125 S. Ct. 2169 (2005). In Spector some disabled > cruise passengers and their companions--alleging, among other matters, > that > physical barriers on two of the company's Bahamas-registered ships had > denied the disabled passengers access to various facilities. The Supreme > Court held that "[a]lthough, in some circumstances, a general statute will > not apply, absent a clear statement of congressional intent, to certain > aspects of the internal operations of foreign vessels temporarily in > United > States waters [nevertheless] [t]he cruise ships in question fell within > Title III's definitions of 'public accommodation' and 'specified public > transportation.'" (emphasis added). > > > > Hence, some parts of the ADA do apply to events occurring outside the > territory of United States. However, this does not mean that Title I > (employment) would likewise apply to employer activities in Canada. A > court > could distinguish employment activities in Canada from the facts in > Spector > on several factual basis: employment activities v. public accommodations, > Canadian soil v. temporary docking in US waters, etc. > > > > Please keep in mind that I am not an attorney. I am merely a law student > interested in the ADA. Also, I am not providing legal advice with this > email. I am merely discussing legal issues. For legal advice, find a > competent attorney. > > > > I hope this helps. > > > > Keith Vick > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces+keith-vick=msn.com at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces+keith-vick=msn.com at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of E.J. > Zufelt > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:13 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] ADA from Canada? > > > > Good evening, > > > > I have to admit that living in Canada I am quite unfamiliar with the > powers > and jurisdiction of the ADA. > > > > Does the ADA assist individuals from other countries who are discriminated > against by U.S. companies in the provision of services or employment? > > > > Thanks, > > Everett > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw/keith-vick%40msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zufelt.ca > From fairall at shellworld.net Thu Dec 4 01:45:13 2008 From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:45:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. bar recently In-Reply-To: <286047.77315.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <286047.77315.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike: A BrailleNote might be a good idea. Couldn't you request to use a laptop as a reasonable accommodation? Brailling your essay and reading on a cassette sounds like a hard way to go. If you used your BrailleNote or laptop, the testing facility could supply you with a flash drive or compact flash card to save your essays. From roddj12 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 4 01:58:12 2008 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:58:12 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. barrecently References: <286047.77315.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mike, you need to request for an exception, and suggest ways to make it secure. Some states allow for the laptop to be deposited night before for inspection. Rod Alcidonis Criminal Defense Clinic Student Attorney Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Gilmore" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. barrecently Hi Leslie, I thought about that. The packet specifically says no laptops. I guess they're afraid of people cheating or something. I did think about using my BrailleNote and hooking it up to a printer; but, they may consider it to be similar to a laptop. But, I guess we could say a braillewriter is a typewriter (on the request for accomodations form, it asks yes or no if the applicant is using a typewriter.) Mike --- On Wed, 12/3/08, Leslie Fairall wrote: From: Leslie Fairall Subject: Re: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. bar recently To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 5:23 PM Hi Mike: Have you considered using a notetaker or laptop for the essay portion of the exam? _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m_b_gilmore%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com From agrima at nbp.org Thu Dec 4 01:59:39 2008 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 19:59:39 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] NBP-Announce: Anna Dresner's 'It's Not on the Keyboard: Typing Special Characters and Foreign Languages in Word' Message-ID: It's Not on the Keyboard: Typing Special Characters and Foreign Languages in Word By Anna Dresner In braille, PortaBook, or ASCII Text, $5 Accents, the copyright symbol, the yen sign, diacritical marks, alphabets such as Cyrillic-if you use a screen reader or braille display and need to type characters that aren't on the standard keyboard, this booklet will help! This book covers the two scenarios in which you might want to type such characters: One, if you need to type things like the copyright symbol, the yen sign, or an e with an acute accent but are working primarily in English; and two, if you want to type in a language that uses many symbols that aren't on the standard keyboard or are in a completely different alphabet, and you want to have them all readily available on the keyboard. Author Anna Dresner also covers how to work in a foreign language, and offers helpful tips such as controlling the AutoCorrect feature and making shortcut keys for symbols. Check out the table of contents: http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/SPECIAL.html ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 20. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . _______________________________________________ Nbp mailing list Nbp at nbp.org PLEASE DO NOT respond to this message! It is an automated message and your query will not reach us. Send questions to orders at nbp.org . Visit us at http://www.nbp.org From JFreeh at nfb.org Thu Dec 4 02:30:47 2008 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 20:30:47 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?NFB=92s_Target_Lawsuit_Settlement_May_M?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ean_Money__for_You_=96_Check_out_www=2Enfbtargetlawsuit=2E?= =?iso-8859-1?q?com__now!?= Message-ID: NFB’s Target Lawsuit Settlement May Mean Money for You – Check out www.nfbtargetlawsuit.com now! Are you legally blind? Have you tried to access the goods or services on Target.com using screen-reader software while you were in the State of California at any time between February 7, 2003 and December 9, 2008? Did you have trouble using that Web site? If so, you are probably eligible to receive up to $7,000.00 from Target under terms of the settlement between that company and the National Federation of the Blind (NFB). However, you have to apply, and time is rapidly running out. To be eligible, you must fill out and submit a claim form by no later than January 8, 2009. There are two ways to get the claim form. The easiest way is to go to www.nfbtargetlawsuit.com. You will find the claim form, instructions, and other information. You may also request a claim form from: NFB v. Target Claims Administrator, RG2 Claims Administration LLC, P.O. Box 59479, Philadelphia, PA 19102-9479 (866-742-4955). There is still time for you to submit your claim. The form may be submitted online by January 8, 2009, or mailed to the address above, postmarked by that date. You do not have to be an NFB member to qualify. Jessica A. Freeh Public Relations Assistant NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 1800 Johnson Street Baltimore, Maryland 21230 Telephone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2348 E-mail: jfreeh at nfb.org From invite+20f0zs_6 at facebookmail.com Thu Dec 4 03:38:25 2008 From: invite+20f0zs_6 at facebookmail.com (Michael Steven Nunez) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 19:38:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile Message-ID: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> Hi blindlaw, I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile. Thanks, Michael To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r From womankind at earthlink.net Thu Dec 4 08:44:53 2008 From: womankind at earthlink.net (Stephanie Ortoleva) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 03:44:53 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> References: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to using face book with window eyes? Thanks, Stephanie Ortoleva At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: >Hi blindlaw, > >I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and >events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, >you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile. > >Thanks, >Michael > >To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: >http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40earthlink.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 4 10:30:55 2008 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 02:30:55 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: References: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: The Face book invitation that was posted to this group is one of the reasons why I haven't joined these types of web sites as they generate a lot of SPAM emails like this one that was posted to the group. There is also questions about how respectful these sites are regarding users privacy. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephanie Ortoleva" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen >reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to using >face book with window eyes? > Thanks, > Stephanie Ortoleva > At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: >>Hi blindlaw, >> >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you >>need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own >>profile. >> >>Thanks, >>Michael >> >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r >> >>_______________________________________________ >>blindlaw mailing list >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>blindlaw: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From chatter8712 at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 14:03:37 2008 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (Shane D) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:03:37 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Of Disrepute and Dysfunction at the Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind Message-ID: <7556b95a0812040603x497747e9s9d220abd835b52dc@mail.gmail.com> Hello Listers, I have enclosed a copy of an article from the Braille Monitor for December 2008 that deals with problems at the Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind in relation to puppy raisers and poor management. The puppy raisers, to make a lengthy story somewhat less lengthy, are refusing to return their dogs, based on the poor management and lack of any qualified staff to train the dogs for service to the blind. They are currently seaking legal representation to fight the case with the EDF. --- Lengthy Article Follows --- Of Disrepute and Dysfunction at the Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind by Daniel B. Frye ********** What would cause a committed core of volunteer puppy raisers working for the Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind (EDF), a guide dog training school based in Bakersfield, California, with training operations in Phoenix, Arizona, to engage in a collective act of civil disobedience, declining to return their animals for further training by the school? What extraordinary circumstances would cause these volunteers to fear for their lives and livelihoods and the safety of the puppies in their charge? Why would over 50 percent of the board of directors and three successive directors of training and their support teams terminate their association with this organization during the last two years? What administrative problems could cause potential students to wait over a year for an application for services, to be denied timely assistance managing their dogs' serious medical problems, or to be denied the opportunity to purchase something as simple as a replacement leash for a working EDF service animal? How is it that a multi-million-dollar foundation that appeals to the general public for funds to train guide dogs for the blind has not graduated a single human-dog team during the last year? And what reputable organization would be so insular in its operations that contact information for its governing body is not available on request and most communications from the school's own puppy-raising community, donors, and the media are fielded by legal counsel instead of by the executive director? The answers to these and other disturbing questions may be partially found in the long and sordid story of the Eye Dog Foundation's history and operations. Concerned members of the EDF volunteer puppy-raising community initially contacted the Braille Monitor about this story. After examining the facts, we concluded that the blind community, program volunteers, donors, and appropriate oversight authorities across America deserve to know about both the troubles and triumphs at EDF. In this way the interested parties may become aware of the school's past and make informed decisions about their association with it in the future. The details are complicated, but here is what we know. According to Joey Etienne, the court-appointed EDF receiver for much of 2007, the Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind, Incorporated, was founded by Lequita McKay in 1952 to breed and train guide dogs for the blind. McKay was apparently one of the earliest female attorneys licensed in California to specialize in high-profile wills, trusts, and estates. She apparently merged her passion for training guide dogs with her law practice, persuading many of her clients over twenty years or more to donate to or make generous bequests to EDF. By the middle to late 1960s, the EDF had amassed enough money to start training and placing guide dogs with blind handlers. Etienne said that, at some stage in the latter 1960s, McKay "somehow got crossways" with the California Board of Guide Dogs for the Blind (the board), the only governmental entity in the United States of its kind responsible for licensing guide dog trainers and regulating guide dog schools operating in the state. It is generally agreed that a settlement was reached between McKay's Eye Dog Foundation and the board in about 1967 in which the board relinquished regulatory jurisdiction over EDF in exchange for McKay's commitment not to raise funds for EDF in California and to train guide dogs outside the state. The school's corporate status and headquarters, however, were permitted to remain registered in California. The EDF's work appears to have continued without public incident for the next thirty-seven years or so. We talked with several current EDF consumers, and, while Patricia Kepler and Petra Janes are presently disappointed with various aspects of recent interactions with school personnel, both report being generally satisfied with the quality of the guide dogs they have received over the years. During this extended period of peace, a number of cultural patterns of EDF's governance and day-to-day management emerged that foreshadowed trouble and perhaps even enabled some of the more overt instances of chicanery that have occurred in recent years. From 1967 through 1988, when the EDF purchased its training campus in south Phoenix, Arizona, the school remained a small concern compared to major guide dog schools elsewhere in the country. In 1988 EDF abandoned its practice of providing in-home training for a few students, and started offering a more conventional course of study to guide dog classes at its newly acquired property in Phoenix. According to Patrick Frase, EDF assistant executive director for about two years before affairs at EDF began to unravel in 2006, the school's small size and low public profile gave McKay an inordinate amount of control. Frase explained that McKay manipulated the composition of the EDF board so that it consisted of longtime friends and members of her family. He reported that customary and transparent business practices such as preparing annual reports and maintaining consistent meeting minutes did not regularly occur. Frase confirmed that, with the approval of her board, McKay sat on the EDF board while drawing an annual salary of between $86,000 and $89,000 as the organization's executive director. Frase said he believes McKay may have used EDF for "suspicious if not illegal personal tax advantages," and he reported that "red flags" were raised for him when he saw how much money was spent, considering the small number of dogs trained and graduated during his tenure. The Braille Monitor has also learned from Wendy Wonderley, a former EDF board member who ultimately resigned as a casualty of the organizational uproar soon to be described, that under McKay's leadership, retiring employees of the school (namely McKay herself; Ruby Bell, McKay's sister; and Lucille Gibbons, a longtime McKay friend until the 2006 split) were entitled to receive generous fringe benefits, including proceeds from a "profit-sharing account," comprehensive medical coverage, and a lump sum bonus equivalent to one half of their annual salaries. Wonderley commented that this was an irresponsible fiscal policy for an organization the size of Eye Dog Foundation (presently valued at somewhere between $7 and $10 million) to adopt. Despite these allegations of wrong-doing and corruption, Frase emphasized that he believes that McKay genuinely wanted to be of help to blind people through the training of high-quality guide dogs, and he believes that it was her positive motivation that allowed her to function unscathed and unmasked at EDF during her fifty-five-year association with the school. Mr. Frase's employment with EDF was ultimately terminated because of his irreconcilable differences with McKay. Wendy Wonderley confirmed, in terms more vague than those of Mr. Frase, her feeling that McKay exercised an unusual degree of control over EDF, but she too believes that McKay was sincerely committed to the mission of the school. Wonderley put it succinctly when she said, "Lequita was a benign dictator." McKay's reign at Eye Dog Foundation seems to have come to an unceremonious end during the autumn of 2006. According to Wendy Wonderley, a series of rapid-fire EDF board transactions and legal skirmishes in the Kern County Superior Court between the two factions of the school's board of directors over the next twelve months resulted in Gwen Brown's wresting control of the EDF board and the organization's executive directorship from McKay and those loyal to her. Since the division on the EDF board and the ensuing struggle for power were the genesis of the most recent round of troubles, we will provide a brief chronology of events from September 2006 through September 2007. The following timeline has been provided largely by Wendy Wonderley, but important dates have been confirmed by Joey Etienne and supporting court documents. We also contacted Gwen Brown by telephone, but she declined to be interviewed. Instead she wanted to talk only about who prompted our decision to report this story before abruptly terminating the telephone conversation. We repeatedly requested in writing an interview with Ms. Brown through her legal counsel in California and Arizona. On October 27 H. Steven Schiffres of Rosoff, Schiffres, and Barta, general California counsel for the EDF, responded to an October 20 Braille Monitor request for an interview, which listed potential interview topics with Brown but did not ask specific questions or present evidence for comment as would have been the case in an actual written interview. In his letter Mr. Schiffres refused the interview and made few substantive statements, noting that the Braille Monitor's October 20 inquiry did not offer details and documentary evidence inviting a thorough response. Since our letter had been only an invitation for an interview and not a written set of interrogatories, his statement was technically correct. Nevertheless, his statements will be included in this article when they are responsive to claims critical of EDF and Brown. Finally, a statement from John D. Clark Jr., EDF's legal counsel in Arizona, was submitted to the Braille Monitor for publication. Apparently Clark has been employed to represent EDF only in its effort to recover the dogs currently being housed by EDF volunteer puppy raisers. Clark's statement is printed in full elsewhere in this article. On September 23, 2006, both Gwen Brown, now executive director and chairperson of the EDF board, and Wendy Wonderley were named to the EDF board. Michael Hannon is a member of that board and an attorney licensed in California. Several sources report that Hannon is Brown's spouse and Wonderley said that Hannon nominated Brown to the school's board. According to Wonderley, Brown received the support of all EDF board members except McKay, who reportedly warned her colleagues that Brown's appointment would be disastrous for EDF. Wonderley said that in retrospect she regrets her support of Brown's nomination to the board. Wonderley said that on October 8, 2006, Brown called an emergency board meeting. It is undisputed that at this meeting McKay resigned as EDF executive director, but the parties differ about whether McKay's resignation of her paid position included resignation from the school's board. According to Schiffres's October 27 letter, the Brown faction of the EDF board (Gwen Brown, Michael Hannon, and Lucille Gibbons) believed that McKay resigned from both the executive directorship and her board position; the McKay faction (Lequita McKay, Wendy Wonderley, and Louis Harris) understood McKay to have resigned only her position as executive director, while retaining her voting seat on the board. On October 21, 2006, the EDF board held another meeting, in which four new board members were nominated, but none were elected because the board was deadlocked. Squabbling continued about whether McKay had the right to exercise her vote as an EDF board member. Wonderley reports that the McKay faction then filed a lawsuit against EDF and the members of the Brown faction over whether McKay continued to hold a seat on the EDF board, since a three-to-three split prevented governance of the organization. Wonderley said that the McKay faction asked the judge to dissolve the Foundation and to transfer its assets to Guiding Eyes for the Blind in New York. On November 17, 2006, yet another EDF board meeting was convened, but Ms. Wonderley said that she was not given notice of this gathering. She says that, to support her and to deny the Brown faction a quorum, McKay and Harris refused to attend this meeting. Wonderley said that during this meeting she was voted off the board and that Brown was confirmed as EDF's executive director. Naturally the McKay faction dismissed the actions of the November 17 board meeting as illegal since a quorum was not present. The McKay faction tried to overturn the decisions ratified at the November 17 meeting in their lawsuit. On December 21, 2006, the McKay faction of the EDF board filed an ex parte application for appointment of receivership to neutralize the Brown faction, who were making day-to-day decisions about the operation of the school. A hearing before Judge Louis P. Etcheverry of the Kern County Superior Court was scheduled for January 31, 2007. According to Wonderley, failure of legal counsel for the Brown faction to file responses caused the hearing to be continued to February 8. On February 8 Judge Etcheverry issued an Order for Appointment of Receiver and Preliminary Injunction in favor of the requests that the McKay faction had made to the court. In summary Judge Etcheverry ruled that McKay's retirement as executive director did not operate to remove her from the EDF board. The judge also confirmed the composition of the EDF board, which included Wonderley as a board member, repudiating the EDF board's actions of November 17, 2006. Finally, Judge Etcheverry placed EDF in the hands of a receiver to evaluate what was needed to make the organization functional. On February 21, 2007, Judge Etcheverry signed the official order appointing Joey Etienne as EDF receiver. Wonderley reports that on the same day Brown attempted to convene another EDF board meeting at which she asserted her entitlement to a salary as executive director. Wonderley says that she was again not given notice of this meeting. Receiver Etienne confirms that he had to suspend Brown's EDF salary during the organization's receivership. Etienne submitted his recommendations to the court on the future of EDF on May 8, 2007. He recommended that the organization headquartered in California be dissolved and that its assets be transferred to the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona created by McKay to manage some minor school matters, which for all practical purposes existed on paper and had performed few actual services. Because of the deadlocked board Etienne suggested that a diverse group of Arizona advisors work with a nonprofit manager to create a new board and establish a reconstituted foundation within the existing framework of the articles of incorporation and bylaws of the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona. Finally, he recommended that he oversee the EDF dissolution until a smooth transition to the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona could be achieved. On May 16, 2007, Judge Etcheverry entered a default judgment in favor of the McKay faction of the EDF board. On June 11 the receiver's report was accepted, but for reasons that remain unclear the case was transferred to Judge Palmer of the Kern County Superior Court. Taking the opportunity to persuade a different judge before Judge Etcheverry's default judgment was officially registered, counsel for the Brown faction successfully argued before Judge Palmer on July 11, 2007, to have the original default judgment set aside. Several days later, on July 20, McKay unexpectedly died. Following McKay's death, the substantive grounds for the original lawsuit no longer existed, so the impasse on the EDF board was broken. In view of these developments, Judge Palmer directed the parties to settle at a hearing on August 16. The court directed that the settlement should relieve the receiver of his duties at a hearing on September 6 and that control of the foundation should be passed back to the school's board. The board was directed to replace McKay on the board in accordance with EDF's bylaws. It appears that an unusual set of circumstances conspired to snatch a legal victory on the merits of the case from the McKay faction of the EDF board. Wonderley reports that the Brown faction quickly capitalized on these developments and scheduled a board meeting for September 25. A quorum was present. The EDF board moved to reinstate Brown as the school's executive director, affirming its confidence in her by ratifying all the actions she had tried to take during the past year. Jerome Washington and Christopher Uboma, candidates supportive of Brown, were elected to the board. Persuaded that she could no longer provide accountable oversight for EDF and not wanting to be responsible for future decisions taken by the Brown-dominated board, Wonderley tendered her resignation at the conclusion of the September 25 meeting. In reviewing Brown's performance as EDF's executive director, we have learned that three successive directors of training and most of their support staff have left the school since September 2007. Manny Gonzales, EDF director of training from February 11, 2006 to September 5, 2007, said that he left a job and program he loved because of the micromanaging harassment he received at Brown's hands. Specifically he said, "Gwen was disrespectful of staff. She made unfounded and outlandish accusations towards us. She was ignorant when it came to knowledge of guide dog practices. She had no experience in assessing the O&M skills of blind people, but she'd regularly presume to intercept and divert applications from students. You couldn't reason with her; you couldn't talk to her." Gonzales is a certified guide dog trainer through the state of California, and he has a degree from New Zealand's Massey University in orientation and mobility. Without exception, everybody with whom we spoke for this story praised Gonzales's competence as a guide dog trainer. In concluding his interview with us, Gonzales said, "Any self-respecting guide dog trainer with any sense would now not remain at Eye Dog Foundation. What's happening under Gwen Brown's leadership is a shame." Patti Savage, a respected puppy coordinator with EDF from September 2004 through November 2006, grew weary of working for Brown almost ten months before Gonzales decided to leave. Among Savage's grievances against Brown were allegations that the acting executive director interfered with her professional judgment to take dogs in her care for special medical treatment and that staff were regularly required to dip into their own pockets for operating cash because Brown would not provide the needed funds. During the almost four months following Gonzales's departure, EDF had no director of training, certified or otherwise. In the weeks after his departure, Barbara Kuhns, EDF office administrator hired in July 2007 by the receiver, and Paula Brown, EDF puppy coordinator, both left their jobs and temporarily shut the Phoenix facility down. Kuhns said, "For the last month of our employment, Paula and I would leave work together for fear of our safety. Gwen was intimidating and created a threatening environment. She regularly would tell Manny that she had somebody watching him." According to Kuhns, both she and Savage left EDF still owed some back pay. Representatives from the EDF volunteer puppy-raiser community told the Braille Monitor that during this period they received little to no communication from Brown about what was happening and that all puppy raiser classes were suspended without notice. Bryan Young was hired to replace Gonzales as director of training on December 15, 2007. While not certified as a guide dog trainer by California, Young brought considerable experience, having worked for EDF for several years in the middle 90s and with several other schools, including Leader Dogs in Rochester Hills, Michigan. Young reported that problems existed for him and the school from the beginning of his EDF employment. He said that his pay was often late, sometimes issued on personal EDF checks and occasionally on more conventional payroll checks. He also reported irregularities with the deduction of state and Social Security taxes from his pay. Finally, Young says that he has still not been paid for almost two weeks of work following his abrupt decision to resign on July 4, 2008. Above and beyond these issues, Young told us that Brown tried to micromanage the school, second guessing and failing to act on his recommendations to release animals not suitable as guide dogs and refusing to forward student applications to him when advised that dogs were almost ready for placement. Additionally, Young said that Brown created operational difficulties and safety hazards at the school when she took actions, including canceling dog food deliveries to the campus and terminating the school's cell phone services, which jeopardized the over- heating alarm systems in the vans used to transport dogs for off-campus training. Young explained that he ultimately spent his personal funds to purchase food for the animals in his care. Both Young and Kuhns told us that bills from many creditors were paid late or not at all. Counsel for Brown and EDF counter that significant administrative disruptions occurred because of a delay in moving accounts back to the control of EDF from the receiver, which may have resulted in some bills being paid late. EDF counsel states that all creditors have been made whole at this stage or that payments have intentionally not been honored for cause, including breach of contract or nonperformance. Young says that he is continuing to try to resolve his pay dispute with EDF, and Wonderley says that EDF officials are declining to pay McKay's estate her retirement entitlement. According to Young, as executive director Brown cultivated a terrible and intimidating relationship with the staff. He said that Brown called Michelle Tenny, puppy raiser coordinator under his charge, at all hours of the night to let her know "just how replaceable" she was. Finally he reported that at one stage during his seven-month employment he was approached by a representative of a company who told him that Brown had hired his firm to install surveillance equipment on campus. According to Young, the company representative ultimately said that ethically he couldn't be part of this bizarre assignment and left the property without finishing the job. According to Young, in April 2008 Executive Director Brown hired Doug Hunter as Young's supervisor. This relationship was short-lived, though, because Hunter remained on staff for less than ten days. Young said that Hunter told him, while being driven to the airport, that he didn't know if he'd ever come back and that he couldn't get a commitment in writing from Brown about the terms of his employment. Young and Tenny both abruptly resigned their positions with EDF on Friday, July 4, 2008, when, as Young tells it, Brown was unresponsive to his repeated requests for authorization to have an EDF dog receive emergency medical care, which ultimately required surgery. Exasperated and bewildered by the oppressive and hostile environment that Brown created, Young said that he and Tenny "had simply put up with enough." In preparing to close the Phoenix property for the second time in less than a year in the absence of staff to operate it, Young told the Braille Monitor that he contacted the volunteer puppy raisers whose dogs were in the school's kennel to come and collect the animals for safe keeping until new staff could be identified. In early August Brown hired Dexter Morin as EDF director of training. Since Morin resigned his position on October 5, just as this story was coming to our attention, we did not have an opportunity to interview him. According to DaCoda Whittemore, EDF assistant guide dog trainer and facilities manager from August 12 to August 26, 2008, and several of the school's volunteer puppy raisers, Morin, in his early twenties, was recruited from Noah's Assistance Dogs in Crete, Nebraska, where he had helped to train perhaps a handful of dogs. Ruth Dutton, an EDF volunteer puppy trainer, told us that she had been in contact with Morin's former supervisor, Mike Renner, after being alarmed at Morin's lack of experience, and was advised that he was dedicated to the profession but was by no means ready to assume the responsibilities of a lead guide dog trainer. Mike Renner, director of Noah's Assistance Dogs, told the Braille Monitor that in fact Morin was associated with his program briefly through the AmeriCorps Program, but, when funding for this position was terminated, Mr. Morin continued with the school as a volunteer. Mr. Renner confirmed that "it would be quite a stretch" to expect Morin to function as director of training for any reputable guide dog training facility. Denise Warner was hired as Morin's puppy coordinator, and she remains employed at EDF at this writing. Whittemore's description of her brief tenure at EDF mirrors the pattern of discontent and concern expressed by Gonzales and Young. "Despite having eight years of experience in the field of animal behavior science, it became apparent that I was not going to be allowed to do anything. I would fax ideas for on-campus improvements, but my communications were ignored. I was told that I could not discuss anything about internal operations at Eye Dog Foundation with anybody. I saw no generation or meaningful preparation of working dogs at all while I was at Eye Dog Foundation. I would caution those in the public about contributing to this school without finding out what their money is really being used for. I decided to leave this part-time job and pay full-time attention to my own business." In response to the concerns of the volunteer puppy-raiser community and others about the organization's ability to retain qualified staff, counsel for EDF concede in their letter of October 27, 2008, that retaining professional personnel is a difficult task. They further acknowledge that "some turnover" in staff has occurred during the past year, but counsel contends that the EDF board strive to identify qualified staff and that currently no key positions are not staffed by competent individuals. This claim is hard to accept since the only staff present at the Phoenix property when we tried to tour the facility on Thursday, October 16, 2008, was Denise Warner, puppy coordinator formerly under Morin, and a man called Rick, who described himself as a grounds caretaker without any professional background with service animals. We are unclear whether Warner's role has changed since Morin's departure; she did claim to be qualified to train guide dogs during the brief over-the-fence conversation we had with her. Despite the invitation on the EDF Website to visit the campus, the staff refused us admittance to the Phoenix property for a tour and instead referred us to Brown in California to arrange any future visits. [PHOTO/CAPTION: Puppy raiser Wallace Swerkes and his dog Kaiser] [PHOTO/CAPTION: Puppy raiser Alice Wies and Litta] EDF has a devoted and passionate volunteer puppy-raiser community of almost fifty people (spouses and family members included) working with between twenty-four and twenty-nine dogs, who could potentially be trained as guide dogs at the school. A puppy raiser agrees to raise a puppy for a guide dog training facility for the first eighteen to twenty-four months of its life, working on socializing and other basic skills before returning it to the school for formal training. Those who undertake this investment of time, love, and money are special and committed people who genuinely care about animals and are dedicated to having their dogs matched with a blind dog handler. In investigating this story, we met with puppy raisers of at least eleven EDF dogs. All of these puppy raisers expressed an abiding desire to raise their dogs to fulfill their mission as guides for blind people. Despite (or perhaps because of) this common commitment, all eleven sets of puppy raisers are resolved not to return their assigned animals to EDF while they believe the school is unable to train adequately or care safely for the dogs. Each of these puppy raisers has a compelling personal story of deceit or promises broken by the EDF administration, but the bottom line for each is that each is unwilling to jeopardize his or her investment of time, energy, love, and money by returning a dog to what they believe is an unsafe and unproductive situation. If circumstances were better at Eye Dog Foundation or if alternative arrangements for the welfare and training of the animals could be arranged, each puppy raiser told us that he or she would gladly relinquish the animal for an objective evaluation and possible successful training as a guide dog. [PHOTO/CAPTION: Former EDF office administrator and volunteer puppy raiser, Barbara Kuhns] Anna Thomasson, Diana Anderson, Gail Stouthamer, and Barbara Kuhns have voluntarily assumed leadership on behalf of almost all the EDF puppy raisers. They told the Braille Monitor that EDF puppy raisers were left to manage the training of their dogs on their own for the almost four-month period between the resignation of Gonzales and the hiring of Young in late 2007. They report that the administration gave them no notice of this staff transition nor any direction about how they were to care for and train their animals in the interim. Despite being alarmed by this development, they all agreed to resume the bimonthly puppy raiser classes with Young once he started working for EDF. In addition to the extended interruption in support from EDF during the autumn of 2007, puppy raisers identified other general concerns during 2008, including frustration that trainer recommendations for release of dogs deemed unsuitable to guide were not honored expeditiously, worries that the school was not placing ready dogs with blind candidates, doubts about the school's ability to care for its animals safely, anger that EDF stopped providing regular heartworm and tick medications for the animals, reservations about the low morale and stress of EDF training staff as a result of their work environment, and annoyance at Executive Director Brown's refusal to communicate regularly with them about their grievances. Following a January 2008 meeting in which Brown did come to Phoenix to meet with the closely bonded community of EDF puppy raisers, she has been unwilling to meet with them again, despite written requests that she do so. After Young resigned as director of training in July 2008 and Brown hired the unqualified Morin to take charge of the program, most of the puppy raisers decided to stop attending puppy training classes because the classes would not be effective and could be harmful to the animals. Even so, puppy raisers continued to request a meeting with Brown to address the deteriorating safety and training at the school. They say that their requests were met with silence. In early October John Clark, an Arizona attorney that Brown hired to secure the return of the EDF dogs, started issuing demand letters to most members of the school's puppy-raiser community, threatening legal action if the dogs were not returned in five days. Barbara Kuhns points out that the capacity of the EDF kennels is about twenty, so, if everybody complied with the request, the school would be unable to care for all of the dogs. At or about the same time, Morin resigned his position as EDF director of training, leaving only Denise Warner on campus to care for the dogs. In his October 5 letter of resignation, Morin advised Brown that he was turning over the remaining dogs (there were only two or three on campus at the time) to the puppy raisers since Denise was not at the campus when he decided to leave. Despite Morin's explanation of this action (an action that previous trainers had taken when they terminated their EDF employment), Thomasson and Anderson told us that Brown filed a police report alleging that the dogs had been stolen from the property. Following is the text of the demand letter that Clark sent to Anna Thomasson on behalf of EDF. Since most of the letters were similar, we print this one mostly to show the tone that the EDF adopted toward its volunteers. In response we print a representative reply to a similar demand letter from puppy raiser Gillian Roberts addressed to the EDF's executive director, which clearly articulates the primary points that all of the puppy raisers are making: ********** VIA CERTIFIED MAIL RETURN RECEIPT AND REGULAR MAIL Anna Thomasson Re: The Eye Dog Foundation Puppy Named Nisha Dear Ms. Thomasson: I represent the Eye Dog Foundation (the "Foundation"). Pursuant to the Puppy Raiser Agreement dated January 20, 2007, you were to provide foster care for Nisha. A copy of the Agreement is enclosed. The Agreement clearly provides that Nisha is the property of the Foundation. Further, in signing this bailment agreement, you undertook certain obligations with respect to the puppy and the Foundation. I understand that you have breached at least two parts of this Agreement. You have not followed the instructions of the staff, and you have not attended all the Training Classes. DEMAND IS HEREBY MADE that you immediately return Nisha to the Foundation at its office at 8252 South 15th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85041. If you cannot provide transportation for Nisha, call Dexter Morin or Denise Warner at (602) 276-0051 to arrange transportation. Please be aware that you have a fiduciary duty to the Foundation. Breach of that duty, such as by attempting to convert the dog to your ownership or as conspiring with others to deprive the Foundation of its property, could subject you to legal liability. You are also directed to return any of the Foundation's equipment that you borrowed. Nisha and the equipment must be returned within, at the most, five (5) days from the date of this letter to avoid any further proceedings. If you have any questions regarding this demand letter, please write me at the address set forth above. Do not discuss your concerns with Dexter Morin or Denise Warner. Very truly yours, John D. Clark Enclosure ************ [PHOTO/CAPTION: Puppy raiser Gillian Roberts and her dog Noni] October 4, 2008 Ms. Gwen Brown Executive Director, Eye Dog Foundation VIA CERTIFIED MAIL RETURN RECEIPT AND REGULAR MAIL Dear Ms. Brown: I am writing as Noni's puppy raiser to notify you that the Eye Dog Foundation (EDF) is in breach of its puppy raiser agreement with me. Further, it has become clear from recent actions by EDF and its staff that EDF cannot currently ensure the safety of the animals under its care. I provide a remedy acceptable to me at the end of this letter. I would point out that I am an experienced puppy raiser, having in the past raised dogs for both Canine Companions for Independence and Guide Dogs for the Blind, both well established and well respected organizations. Here are the facts to support my concerns with EDF: First: I believe that EDF with its currently constituted board of directors and staff is unable or unwilling to fulfill its publicly stated mission of being "dedicated to giving guide dogs to the blind and visually impaired at absolutely no cost to them" < http://www.eyedogfoundation.org>. This mission is also a commitment to the volunteer puppy raisers who pour love, time, and significant money into the care and preparation of a puppy that they believe will be destined for that career. EDF has not graduated a single guide dog team in more than a year, despite the fact that in the spring of 2008 there were several dogs in the kennel ready to be teamed and clients available for them. Second: EDF has been unable to retain qualified guide dog trainers. In thirteen months, there has been complete turnover of training center staff twice. This includes the loss of three fully-qualified guide dog trainers. The staff currently at the training center is not qualified by any measure recognized within the guide dog industry to be training these dogs and is therefore not competent to run a program that will produce guide dogs that can be safely placed with visually impaired partners. Third: The puppy raiser agreement requires me to attend classes once per month. This implies that EDF will provide those classes and further that those classes will be conducted by qualified trainers. From mid- September 2007 to early March 2008, almost six months, EDF failed to provide classes for the dogs. During the first four months of this period, at considerable inconvenience to my husband and me, I continued with Noni's training, including sessions with a number of professional trainers. At any time that EDF has offered classes, I have eagerly attended in accordance with our agreement and only missed class for valid reasons. I attended two sessions with the new staff, during which my only contact was with Denise Warner, puppy coordinator. It was apparent in those sessions that Ms. Warner had absolutely no background with service dogs and no understanding of appropriate training methods. Given that experience, I believe that continuing training with Ms. Warner would be detrimental to Noni's development as a guide dog. Fourth: EDF has signaled that it intends to unilaterally redefine what constitutes a release of a dog. In the past, and as understood by the current puppy raisers, the (qualified) director of training determined whether a dog was to be released from the program. Despite this understanding, which is reinforced by consistent past practice and acknowledged by you, Ms. Brown, some of the puppy raisers have been told that the rules have changed and that now you, Ms. Brown, and/or the board must decide whether a dog is to be released from the program. Not only is it impermissible to unilaterally change the terms of our agreement, but in addition, to the knowledge of the puppy raisers, neither you, Ms. Brown, nor any member of the board has the training that would qualify you or them to determine whether a dog should be released from, or retained, in the program. EDF has given clear indication that it does not intend to honor its contractual obligation to allow puppy raisers the option to adopt the dog they raised if ultimately someone (qualified or not) determines their dog will be released from the program. My agreement states that "if the puppy needs to have a career change, the first priority will be to place it with an appropriate service organization. Second priority will be to place the puppy with original raiser at no cost." In a meeting with approximately thirty puppy raisers on January 12, 2008, you, Ms. Brown, affirmed our understanding that we would have first rights to our dogs if they are released from the program. When we asked for clarification of the puppy raiser agreement regarding the potential placement with "an appropriate service organization," you, Ms. Brown, once again assured us that historically dogs have not been placed with other service organizations, and they would be returned to us if they are released. Recent past conduct underscores EDF's new resistance to returning released dogs to their puppy raisers. In mid-February, the former director of training, Bryan Young, signaled that a number of dogs were to be released from the program, yet four of those dogs were kept in EDF's kennels for almost five months--until July 5--when they finally were returned to puppy raiser homes. For EDF to direct that these highly intelligent dogs, raised in family homes and accustomed to daily socialization, not be returned to puppy raiser homes and instead be kept in a kennel after no longer being deemed suitable for guide work is unconscionable and demonstrates a lack of intent to fulfill EDF's contractual obligation to puppy raisers. Fifth: It has become clear that the staff at the training center does not have the experience to control the dogs in their care. I know of one recent incident in which one of the dogs at the center was sufficiently injured in a dog fight to require veterinary care. From the information I have, it is clear that staff inexperience was a major contributing factor. I could not conscionably return Noni to an unsafe environment, nor do I believe I would be legally required to do so. Sixth: On July 5, 2008, EDF abandoned Noni. She was boarding at the training center, one of twelve dogs present, when the training staff resigned and the center abruptly closed down. You, Ms. Brown, had cancelled food orders for the center on June 30 when the center was out of food, possibly leaving the dogs, both boarders and dogs which had been returned to EDF, to starve. It was up to the training staff, acting on their own and concerned for the dogs' welfare, to purchase food and arrange for care for them, including one dog which required emergency life-saving surgery. We were out of state and had to rely on two other puppy raisers to care for her until we could return. I am committed absolutely to Noni's fulfilling her mission as a guide dog. This is why I became involved in the program at EDF. However, I no longer believe that EDF can deliver on its commitments, and, perhaps more importantly, EDF cannot ensure her safety. To resolve this, I request that EDF release Noni to a nationally recognized guide dog organization, or to me on the understanding that I will make due diligence to donate her (with no benefit to me) to an appropriate service dog organization. In either case I will assume the cost and responsibility of delivering her to that organization. ************ Sincerely, Gillian Roberts CC: Mr. John D. Clark, Jr, Attorney at Law ************ Finally, in accordance with a commitment to Clark and the EDF, we print the following statement from the school about the puppy raisers' failure to honor the demand letters. Here it is: ********** 1. The Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind is a nonprofit California corporation that was established, as the name suggests, to provide guide dogs for the blind. It is authorized to operate in Arizona. 2. The Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind owns more than twenty-five puppies that were placed under bailment contracts with parties who were to raise the puppies, i.e., puppy raisers. 3. Each of the Contracts clearly states that each of the dogs belong to the Foundation, and gives no ownership rights whatsoever to any of the puppy raisers. The puppy raisers merely had the right to raise these puppies. 4. The Contract also stipulates that the puppy raisers were required to comply with the Foundation's directives regarding the puppies. 5. Last week the Foundation directed each of the puppy raisers in writing to return the Foundation's puppies to the Foundation within five days. 6. It now appears that the puppy raisers are refusing to comply with the Foundation's directive to return the Foundation's puppies. 7. The puppy raisers are apparently attempting to raise a number of specious issues to divert attention away from their clear breaches of the bailment contracts. None of these issues give the puppy raisers the right to deprive the Foundation of its puppies, which is what the puppy raisers are apparently attempting to do. ********** Seemingly backed into a corner and with no access to legal representation to fight against this multimillion dollar organization, the EDF puppy raisers contacted the offices of the Attorneys General in both Arizona and California. Receiving no satisfactory response from these authorities, they then approached the Braille Monitor and the local ABC affiliate in Phoenix to register their concerns and to attract attention to the issues occurring at the school. Following is the text of the story found on the Website of the local ABC affiliate in Phoenix that accompanied the brief video spot that was also produced and aired in early October: ********** A custody battle is brewing over twenty-five "service dogs in training" in the Phoenix area. The future service animals are owned by the Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind, a California-based nonprofit group that operates a training center in Phoenix. But a large group of volunteers, foster families that agreed to help raise the dogs, are refusing to return them. [PHOTO/CAPTION: Puppy raiser Dianna Anderson and her dog Kensi] "I couldn't feel comfortable handing this dog back to a foundation that is not functioning and feel good about it," Diana Anderson said. Anderson and twenty-five other volunteers entered into agreements with the foundation to provide the dogs a home and bring them to training sessions at the foundation's facility in south Phoenix. The goal of the foundation is to train the dogs and then place them with the blind. But volunteers like Eldon Ploetz say the foundation is in shambles, that dogs are not receiving the necessary training, and they claim not a single dog has been placed with a blind person in more than a year. Ploetz and his wife have helped raise and foster Kiesha, a German shepherd. In late September Ploetz received a letter from the Eye Dog Foundation's attorney stating, "DEMAND IS HEREBY MADE that you immediately return Kiesha to the Foundation." The letter continues, "I understand that you have breached at least two parts of this Agreement. You have not followed the instructions of the staff, and you have not attended all the Training Classes." Other volunteers received similar letters. But the volunteers claim the trainers are not properly certified, and the ones that have been hired have not stayed on with the foundation. Additionally, they say the Foundation had been shut down for weeks and they have neglected the dogs. "We understand they cut off the food for the dogs that were in the kennel," Ploetz said. Ploetz's wife said she would rather go to jail than give Kiesha back to the foundation. "They are valid concerns," said DaCoda Whittemore, a former operations manager who worked at the foundation's training facility for only a week. Whittemore said the dogs are "absolutely" receiving better care with the foster families, "not just because the management isn't functioning properly, but there's no staff qualified at the foundation at this point to be able to take and care for these dogs properly." Dexter Morin, a former trainer at the facility, agreed with Whittemore, submitting his resignation earlier this month. Before leaving, Morin turned over several dogs to the foster families rather than leaving them alone at the training facility. In his resignation letter, Morin wrote, "I contacted the puppy raisers to inform them of my concerns of leaving the dogs on the premises without the guarantee that they would be attended to." Morin goes on to say, "I in good conscience turned them over to the puppy raisers for the safe keeping of the dogs." The Eye Dog Foundation and its attorney have declined our repeated requests for an on-camera interview. In a statement to ABC 15, the Foundation's attorney, John D. Clark, wrote, "The contract clearly states that each of the dogs belong to the Foundation, and gives no ownership rights whatsoever to any of the puppy raisers." The letter goes on to state that "the Foundation directed each of the puppy raisers in writing to return the Foundation's puppies to the Foundation within five days. It now appears that the puppy raisers are refusing to comply with the Foundation's directive." ********** There you have the ABC story. In an effort to resolve the impasse amicably, EDF puppy-raiser leaders Anna Thomasson and Gail Stouthamer initiated a dialogue with Clark to find a solution to the custody problem acceptable to all parties. Among the suggestions that the puppy raisers offered were to turn the dogs over to a functioning guide dog school equipped to evaluate and train the dogs for guiding service if appropriate. Optimism about resolution of this matter was briefly high among the puppy raisers following signs of good-faith conversations with Clark, but he abruptly ended the settlement talks after receiving a request from the Braille Monitor to interview his client for this story. No further progress on resolving the standoff between concerned puppy raisers and the foundation has been realized since Clark's retaliatory measures against the puppy raisers for their decision to alert the Braille Monitor to this story. Afraid of the financial and legal liability that they will all face as a result of their collective decision to engage in this act of civil disobedience in support of producing high-quality guide dogs for blind consumers and for the welfare of the animals themselves, puppy-raiser leaders say that they are nevertheless resolved to do the right thing on principle. The puppy raisers are looking for legal representation, but to date they have been unsuccessful in finding counsel willing to advocate for them pro bono. Throughout this long ordeal some EDF puppy raisers have reported feeling varying degrees of intimidation from and fear of Gwen Brown. Thomasson, for instance, received several unidentified cell phone calls on October 7, 2008, in which the caller, who Thomasson believes to have been Brown, said, "Ok, Anna Thomasson. It's me and you, me and you and Barbara Kuhns. We're going to go for it, okay? Me and you--you and me, okay?" Later this same week Thomasson received an anonymous large envelope in the mail which contained letters addressed to Gwen Brown that had been resealed with tape. Another puppy raiser, who had initially agreed to be interviewed for this story, called to insist that his name not be used for fear that Brown or one of her "operatives" would somehow harm his family or the dog that he had raised. Several sources for this story also report having had conversations with Brown in which she has made threatening comments like, "I can't wait until the Lord makes my enemies my footstools" and other vague but pointed remarks. Finally, Anderson told the Braille Monitor that she was quite disturbed when Brown ended an unpleasant telephone conversation with her with the comment, "Oh, so you have children, do you?" Several EDF consumers told the Braille Monitor of instances of nonresponsive or insensitive treatment at Brown's hands. Patricia Kepler of Oregon said that Brown was unresponsive to the fact that her dog had been injured on public transportation, and she explained that her dog was offered no retraining or post-accident evaluation services. Instead, Robert Torence of the Seeing Eye generously came out to help her work with her dog. She says that both the Seeing Eye and Guide Dogs for the Blind have been invaluable to EDF consumers since the school has essentially stopped functioning. She also cited an instance in which Brown told her simply to go to Pet Smart when she needed a replacement leash for her guide dog. "Of course any responsible administrator of a reputable guide dog school knows better than to recommend that a student use a pet leash for the taxing work that a service animal performs," Kepler said. Finally, Veronica Elsea of California told the Braille Monitor that she has been trying to get a guide dog from EDF since July 2007, and she reports having received the application only within the last few weeks. The final facet of this story involves allegations that Gwen Brown, on behalf of EDF, attempted to make or made inappropriate withdrawals from EDF of California and EDF of Arizona bank accounts. As previously reported, Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona was a distinct entity from Eye Dog Foundation of California that existed largely to manage minor Arizona-related matters for the school. According to Eldon Ploetz, EDF puppy raiser and treasurer of the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona, Brown was never a member of the governing board or a financial signatory on bank records of this small Arizona entity. Ploetz accuses Brown of inappropriately withdrawing ten thousand dollars from an Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona account, but he acknowledges that, once the bank realized its error and asked her to return the funds, she did so. Schiffres, on behalf of Brown and EDF, explains this incident in his letter of October 27, 2008, as follows: ********** Ms. Brown did withdraw $10,000 from an Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona account at Wells Fargo Bank. She went to a Claremont branch of Wells Fargo and filled out a withdrawal form (in the absence of having any available checks) and presented appropriate identification. The bank teller (name unknown) checked the bank's signature card records to confirm Ms. Brown's authority to make the withdrawal. Ms. Brown advises that the teller appeared also to have obtained the approval of the bank manager. The withdrawal was thus approved, and Ms. Brown received $10,000. She used same to pay counsel on behalf of Eye Dog Foundation for work performed on its behalf. Approximately two weeks later the Wells Fargo branch manager called Ms. Brown, advising her that she was not shown as a signatory on the account and requesting that the monies be repaid. Ms. Brown's response was that he should double-check his records because she was in fact an authorized signer, as was confirmed by the teller. The manager then responded that the names on the account were two other board members, Ms. Wonderley and Mr. Harris, and he claimed Ms. Brown had never been a signatory on the account. Although the bank manager's information that Ms. Brown lacked authority to make a withdrawal on the subject account was incorrect, rather than argue the point, Ms. Brown simply took the pragmatic approach. She used her own personal funds to reimburse the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona account at Wells Fargo Bank in response to the Bank's request, thereby to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. It was subsequently learned that the receiver had apparently empowered Wendy Wonderley and Louis Harris to take over control of that account, and they had presented the bank with documentation that superseded the bank authorization for Ms. Brown to sign on the account. This was not revealed to Ms. Brown at the time or to her counsel; nor was the Bank subsequently informed by Ms. Wonderley or Mr. Harris, or by the receiver, that upon extinguishing the receivership, control of the account had reverted to Eye Dog Foundation's board, of which Ms. Brown was its duly elected executive director. Had either notice been provided, the entire episode would never have occurred. ********** In the face of such contradictory information, the Braille Monitor is unable to verify fully or accurately where the truth in this incident actually lies, but we have records (minutes and the articles of incorporation for the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona) that show that Ms. Brown was not a member of this organization's governing body. Nevertheless, no doubt can exist that, while the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona and the Eye Dog Foundation of California were separate legal entities, these organizations worked together in an allied cause. Subsequent to the dissolution of the EDF receivership, Mr. Ploetz reports that Brown, in her capacity as EDF executive director, has now entirely drained the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona bank account and has absorbed its resources into the Eye Dog Foundation of California operation. Ploetz alleges that Brown had no right to do this since she has never had anything to do with this entity. He reports that he filed a criminal complaint with the IRS regarding Brown's second Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona withdrawal in the spring of this year. Without resources to operate the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona, Ploetz told us that its board dissolved the small Arizona-based organization in the spring of 2008. In response to this second allegation, Schiffres said, "Your letter references a pending IRS criminal probe into Ms. Brown's alleged taking of funds from Eye Dog of Arizona ("EDA") accounts. We are not aware of any such inquiry. However, we are unaware of any claimed impropriety regarding said accounts by Ms. Brown. We therefore must question the accuracy of your information." Both Ploetz and Wonderley tell the Braille Monitor that Brown also attempted inappropriately to withdraw $30,000 from an EDF of California account, but they both confirm that this attempted transaction was ultimately blocked by the bank and that these funds were never taken. Counsel for Ms. Brown, however, contradicts this claim and explains the incident like this: ********** Your letter references an attempted withdrawal of funds from Arizona accounts. The true facts are as follows: As you are presumably aware, several years ago the Eye Dog Foundation board was provided a statement of resignation by Lequita McKay, executive director. The resignation was understood to include her director position and a new executive director-- Ms. Gwen Brown--was voted in. Then Ms. McKay and her supporters on the board claimed that she did not intend to resign as director, leading to a board deadlock. This, in turn, led to a lawsuit and the imposition of a receiver. Following Ms. McKay's death, which mooted the issue of board deadlock, and the presentation of opposition proof and briefing, the court held in favor of the Gwen Brown faction of the board and made an order extinguishing the receivership. Unfortunately, the practical effects of the suit, receivership, and elimination of the receivership, lasted much longer. Several months passed during which we were unable to get court orders signed for the reinstatement of the new board and Ms. Brown. The result was a major dislocation of the Foundation's business. It is in this context that this and your other questions must be considered. On a date subsequent to the receiver's appointment, Eye Dog Foundation received a letter from Citibank advising of a maturing six-month CD. Ms. Brown and another board member, Mr. Hannon, responded by going to the Citibank branch in Upland with the intention of ascertaining Eye Dog Foundation's available options for the handling of the CD precisely because the account was at the time in receivership. They met and spoke to a Ms. Hong and specifically advised her that the account was subject to the receivership. Ms. Hong responded that notwithstanding what she was being told by Ms. Brown and Mr. Hannon, there was "no hold" on the account. She indicated she would have to contact her home office to obtain further instructions. Ms. Brown believes that Mr. Hannon signed a document given to him by Ms. Hong at that time. Ms. Hong stated that the document was needed in order for her to make the home office inquiry. That was the extent of the first visit to Citibank, which occurred on a Friday. The following Monday or Tuesday Ms. Brown had a telephone conversation with Ms. Hong. Ms. Hong this time advised that the account should have been blocked. Consequently, Ms. Brown and Mr. Hannon thought the matter was resolved. They gave Ms. Hong no instructions concerning the maturing CD because, upon receiving the bank's confirmation that the CD was on hold, meant they had no power or authority to act with regard to same. There was no attempt to withdraw $30,000 from the Citibank account. ************ [PHOTO/CAPTION: Litta, EDF puppy in training] This is what we know. The Braille Monitor has been careful in reporting this story to keep our narration to facts or circumstances confirmed by at least two people. What we personally believe as a result of our investigation, however, could fill several more pages. Blind consumers, oversight authorities, and others interested in the welfare of guide dogs should understand that the Eye Dog Foundation is clearly in trouble. They currently have no dog trainers on staff who meet industry standards for working with guide dogs. The qualified trainers that they did employ have resigned, citing the hostile and oppressive work environment created by Executive Director Brown, who seems to know little about the day-to-day issues of guide dog instruction or practice. The school has not issued a guide dog to a blind handler in well over a year. The caring and conscientious EDF volunteer puppy-raising community is so concerned about the absence of quality training and the general safety of the dogs that they are engaged in an unprecedented act of civil disobedience, willingly submitting themselves to legal jeopardy for their principles. And the EDF governing board (an insular body indeed, in which its members' contact details are not readily available to the public and most of its members will not speak about their knowledge of events) is now merely a rubber stamp for Brown, since all the members who disagreed with the current administration have died or resigned in frustration. We note that, to the best of our knowledge, no consumers have ever served on the EDF board. This is a distressing situation to be sure. Finally, the EDF operates under a dark shadow while it remains under investigation from the California Attorney General and the IRS. Caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) should probably be the watch phrase for those who have dealings with the Eye Dog Foundation in future. Only time will tell what will happen with this organization. We sincerely hope that matters can be resolved. The blind of America can only benefit from a well-run guide dog school that specializes in the training of German Shepherds, but at present the prospects for the foundation seem poor. -- -Shane Blog: http://blind-geek.com/blog/ CoOwner: http://sjtechzone.com AIM: inhaddict Skype: chatter8712 MSN: shane at blind-geek.com From jbar at barcore.com Thu Dec 4 16:00:33 2008 From: jbar at barcore.com (Jim Barbour) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 08:00:33 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: References: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> To use facebook, I suggest that screen reader users try m.facebook.com, which is their mobile interface. I would agree that sending an invitation to this list was inappropriate. I am assuming that Michael told facebook to "scan my email contacts" and then emailed an invitation to all of them. This is a very standard way of inviting people to join you on such sites. LInkedIn, a networking website focused on professional networking, has the option. Its up to the user to filter out email lists, etc. However, in general, facebook and linkedin can be very useful. Not just for socializing but for keeping in touch with family, communicating information about groups (the NFB of California's student division has a facebook page), and sharing your resume with people who want to read it. As to privacy, I'd be interested to know your questions. I believe no one has any expectation of privacy about anything they post on the site. Pictures, resumes, "private" messages to other memebers, etc. However, the same thing applies to this listserv. I am not aware of any mistreatment of credit card numbers. As to selling information about people on the website, its a bit of a grey area. Legally, they could do this, but it would be very stupid, It would sink the brand loyalty they've build up, for a one time payment. I can see them selling demographic information, in much the same way the amazon does, but that seems reasonable. I also suspect that it uses your profile information to help target advertising at you. Again, this seems totally reasonable to me. I've written all this because I believe that social networks will be a huge thing for blind folks, especially for job seeking, and various kinds of social interaction. I highly recommend getting to know facebook (http://www.facebook.com/) and linked in (http://www.linkedin.com) Regards, Jim On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 02:30:55AM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > The Face book invitation that was posted to this group is one of the > reasons why I haven't joined these types of web sites as they generate a > lot of SPAM emails like this one that was posted to the group. There is {<> also questions about how respectful these sites are regarding users privacy. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephanie Ortoleva" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > > > >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen > >reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to > >using face book with window eyes? > >Thanks, > >Stephanie Ortoleva > >At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: > >>Hi blindlaw, > >> > >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and > >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you > >>need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own > >>profile. > >> > >>Thanks, > >>Michael > >> > >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: > >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>blindlaw mailing list > >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>blindlaw: > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40earthlink.net > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >blindlaw mailing list > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >blindlaw: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com From cjborne at comcast.net Thu Dec 4 18:49:40 2008 From: cjborne at comcast.net (Craig Borne) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:49:40 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> References: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> Message-ID: <010601c95641$1056d980$6700a8c0@computer> m.facebook.com presents the user with a file download. Is this the right address? Craig Craig Borne, Esq. Baltimore, Maryland "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom." --Thomas Paine, Common Sense -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:01 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile To use facebook, I suggest that screen reader users try m.facebook.com, which is their mobile interface. I would agree that sending an invitation to this list was inappropriate. I am assuming that Michael told facebook to "scan my email contacts" and then emailed an invitation to all of them. This is a very standard way of inviting people to join you on such sites. LInkedIn, a networking website focused on professional networking, has the option. Its up to the user to filter out email lists, etc. However, in general, facebook and linkedin can be very useful. Not just for socializing but for keeping in touch with family, communicating information about groups (the NFB of California's student division has a facebook page), and sharing your resume with people who want to read it. As to privacy, I'd be interested to know your questions. I believe no one has any expectation of privacy about anything they post on the site. Pictures, resumes, "private" messages to other memebers, etc. However, the same thing applies to this listserv. I am not aware of any mistreatment of credit card numbers. As to selling information about people on the website, its a bit of a grey area. Legally, they could do this, but it would be very stupid, It would sink the brand loyalty they've build up, for a one time payment. I can see them selling demographic information, in much the same way the amazon does, but that seems reasonable. I also suspect that it uses your profile information to help target advertising at you. Again, this seems totally reasonable to me. I've written all this because I believe that social networks will be a huge thing for blind folks, especially for job seeking, and various kinds of social interaction. I highly recommend getting to know facebook (http://www.facebook.com/) and linked in (http://www.linkedin.com) Regards, Jim On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 02:30:55AM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > The Face book invitation that was posted to this group is one of the > reasons why I haven't joined these types of web sites as they generate a > lot of SPAM emails like this one that was posted to the group. There is {<> also questions about how respectful these sites are regarding users privacy. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephanie Ortoleva" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > > > >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen > >reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to > >using face book with window eyes? > >Thanks, > >Stephanie Ortoleva > >At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: > >>Hi blindlaw, > >> > >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and > >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you > >>need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own > >>profile. > >> > >>Thanks, > >>Michael > >> > >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: > >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>blindlaw mailing list > >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>blindlaw: > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40eart hlink.net > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >blindlaw mailing list > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >blindlaw: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglo bal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast. net From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Thu Dec 4 19:30:48 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:30:48 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Save the Date for ABA National Conference on Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities Message-ID: ________________________________ From: Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law [mailto:cmpdl at abanet.org] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:00 AM To: Nightingale, Noel Subject: Save the Date for ABA National Conference on Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities If you cannot view this message, go to: http://www.abanet.org/disability/conferences/savethedate.html Save the Date! [http://www.abanet.org/disability/images/2009conferencelogo-TRANSPARENT.png] Hosted by ABA President H. Thomas Wells, Jr. Conference Topics Will Include: * Making the pledge to interview and hire lawyers with disabilities * The transition from law student to lawyer with accommodations * Best practices for hiring, retaining, and accommodating lawyers with disabilities Location: Washington Marriott Wardman Park Hotel (room group code: "ABAABAA") For more information, including sponsorship opportunities, visit: http://www.abanet.org/disability/conferences/09conference.shtml or contact Michael J. Stratton at 202-662-1571 (phone) or CMPDL at abanet.org (e-mail). [http://www.abanet.org/disability/images/ACCLogoTRANS.png] [http://www.abanet.org/disability/images/MCCALogoTRANS.png] CLE certification pending From jbar at barcore.com Thu Dec 4 20:03:41 2008 From: jbar at barcore.com (Jim Barbour) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:03:41 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: <010601c95641$1056d980$6700a8c0@computer> References: <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> <010601c95641$1056d980$6700a8c0@computer> Message-ID: <20081204200340.GG31292@barcore.com> It doesn't do that for me. I'll take this up with you off list. Jim On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:49:40PM -0500, Craig Borne wrote: > m.facebook.com presents the user with a file download. Is this the right > address? > Craig > > Craig Borne, Esq. > Baltimore, Maryland > "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial > appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in > defense of custom." --Thomas Paine, Common Sense > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Jim Barbour > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:01 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > > To use facebook, I suggest that screen reader users try > m.facebook.com, which is their mobile interface. > > I would agree that sending an invitation to this list was > inappropriate. I am assuming that Michael told facebook to "scan my > email contacts" and then emailed an invitation to all of them. This > is a very standard way of inviting people to join you on such sites. > LInkedIn, a networking website focused on professional networking, > has the option. Its up to the user to filter out email lists, etc. > > However, in general, facebook and linkedin can be very useful. Not > just for socializing but for keeping in touch with family, communicating > information about groups (the NFB of California's student division has > a facebook page), and sharing your resume with people who want to read it. > > As to privacy, I'd be interested to know your questions. I believe no > one has any expectation of privacy about anything they post on the > site. Pictures, resumes, "private" messages to other memebers, etc. > However, the same thing applies to this listserv. > > I am not aware of any mistreatment of credit card numbers. > > As to selling information about people on the website, its a bit of a > grey area. Legally, they could do this, but it would be very stupid, > It would sink the brand loyalty they've build up, for a one time > payment. I can see them selling demographic information, in much the > same way the amazon does, but that seems reasonable. > > I also suspect that it uses your profile information to help target > advertising at you. Again, this seems totally reasonable to me. > > I've written all this because I believe that social networks will be a > huge thing for blind folks, especially for job seeking, and various > kinds of social interaction. I highly recommend getting to know > facebook (http://www.facebook.com/) and linked in (http://www.linkedin.com) > > Regards, > > Jim > > On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 02:30:55AM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > The Face book invitation that was posted to this group is one of the > > reasons why I haven't joined these types of web sites as they generate a > > lot of SPAM emails like this one that was posted to the group. There is > {<> also questions about how respectful these sites are regarding users > privacy. > > Chuck > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Stephanie Ortoleva" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 AM > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > > > > > > >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen > > >reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to > > >using face book with window eyes? > > >Thanks, > > >Stephanie Ortoleva > > >At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: > > >>Hi blindlaw, > > >> > > >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and > > >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you > > >>need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own > > >>profile. > > >> > > >>Thanks, > > >>Michael > > >> > > >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: > > >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r > > >> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>blindlaw mailing list > > >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >>blindlaw: > > > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40eart > hlink.net > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >blindlaw mailing list > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >blindlaw: > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglo > bal.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Thu Dec 4 19:23:37 2008 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 13:23:37 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Stephanie, Do you know about GW Micro's GW Info list? You probably would have a better chance of getting some help there in addition to trying the site for mobil phones that Jim Barbour mentioned. If you don't, you can get some information by going to GW Micro's home page, then to Support and finally to Email lists, or you can go there directly by opening http://www.gwmicro.com/Support/Email_Lists/ It will also be helpful to describe the specific things that are causing difficulty when you write. As Jim said, there are more and more blind people using these sites, but I think that it is still true that most of us don't so we can't be of much help. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 03:44:53 -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my >screen reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any >guide to using face book with window eyes? >Thanks, >Stephanie Ortoleva >At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: >>Hi blindlaw, >> >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, >>you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile. >> >>Thanks, >>Michael >> >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r >> >>_______________________________________________ >>blindlaw mailing list >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for blindlaw: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40earthlink.net >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From jbar at barcore.com Thu Dec 4 20:40:32 2008 From: jbar at barcore.com (Jim Barbour) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:40:32 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: <010601c95641$1056d980$6700a8c0@computer> References: <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> <010601c95641$1056d980$6700a8c0@computer> Message-ID: <20081204204032.GK31292@barcore.com> This should be my last post on this thread. It seems that internet explorer 6 won't work with m.facebook.com, but ie7 will. Feel free to contact me off list for more info Jim On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:49:40PM -0500, Craig Borne wrote: > m.facebook.com presents the user with a file download. Is this the right > address? > Craig > > Craig Borne, Esq. > Baltimore, Maryland > "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial > appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in > defense of custom." --Thomas Paine, Common Sense > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Jim Barbour > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:01 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > > To use facebook, I suggest that screen reader users try > m.facebook.com, which is their mobile interface. > > I would agree that sending an invitation to this list was > inappropriate. I am assuming that Michael told facebook to "scan my > email contacts" and then emailed an invitation to all of them. This > is a very standard way of inviting people to join you on such sites. > LInkedIn, a networking website focused on professional networking, > has the option. Its up to the user to filter out email lists, etc. > > However, in general, facebook and linkedin can be very useful. Not > just for socializing but for keeping in touch with family, communicating > information about groups (the NFB of California's student division has > a facebook page), and sharing your resume with people who want to read it. > > As to privacy, I'd be interested to know your questions. I believe no > one has any expectation of privacy about anything they post on the > site. Pictures, resumes, "private" messages to other memebers, etc. > However, the same thing applies to this listserv. > > I am not aware of any mistreatment of credit card numbers. > > As to selling information about people on the website, its a bit of a > grey area. Legally, they could do this, but it would be very stupid, > It would sink the brand loyalty they've build up, for a one time > payment. I can see them selling demographic information, in much the > same way the amazon does, but that seems reasonable. > > I also suspect that it uses your profile information to help target > advertising at you. Again, this seems totally reasonable to me. > > I've written all this because I believe that social networks will be a > huge thing for blind folks, especially for job seeking, and various > kinds of social interaction. I highly recommend getting to know > facebook (http://www.facebook.com/) and linked in (http://www.linkedin.com) > > Regards, > > Jim > > On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 02:30:55AM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > The Face book invitation that was posted to this group is one of the > > reasons why I haven't joined these types of web sites as they generate a > > lot of SPAM emails like this one that was posted to the group. There is > {<> also questions about how respectful these sites are regarding users > privacy. > > Chuck > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Stephanie Ortoleva" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 AM > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > > > > > > >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen > > >reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to > > >using face book with window eyes? > > >Thanks, > > >Stephanie Ortoleva > > >At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: > > >>Hi blindlaw, > > >> > > >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and > > >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you > > >>need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own > > >>profile. > > >> > > >>Thanks, > > >>Michael > > >> > > >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: > > >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r > > >> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>blindlaw mailing list > > >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >>blindlaw: > > > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40eart > hlink.net > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >blindlaw mailing list > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >blindlaw: > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglo > bal.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 5 00:17:48 2008 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 16:17:48 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> References: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> Message-ID: <22C1240DFFB842BFBFAC63D94EF399E7@spike> Hi Jim, my privacy concerns were based more on the possible of selling email contact information to various marketers/advertisers, not with regard to the posting of content. It also referred to the point you mentioned of not being able to opt out of receiving invitation requests as you mentioned. I have some concerns of not being able to opt of certain web tracking features such as the "WEB Beacons" that are used on Yahoo.com although those can be opted out of. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Barbour" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > To use facebook, I suggest that screen reader users try > m.facebook.com, which is their mobile interface. > > I would agree that sending an invitation to this list was > inappropriate. I am assuming that Michael told facebook to "scan my > email contacts" and then emailed an invitation to all of them. This > is a very standard way of inviting people to join you on such sites. > LInkedIn, a networking website focused on professional networking, > has the option. Its up to the user to filter out email lists, etc. > > However, in general, facebook and linkedin can be very useful. Not > just for socializing but for keeping in touch with family, communicating > information about groups (the NFB of California's student division has > a facebook page), and sharing your resume with people who want to read it. > > As to privacy, I'd be interested to know your questions. I believe no > one has any expectation of privacy about anything they post on the > site. Pictures, resumes, "private" messages to other memebers, etc. > However, the same thing applies to this listserv. > > I am not aware of any mistreatment of credit card numbers. > > As to selling information about people on the website, its a bit of a > grey area. Legally, they could do this, but it would be very stupid, > It would sink the brand loyalty they've build up, for a one time > payment. I can see them selling demographic information, in much the > same way the amazon does, but that seems reasonable. > > I also suspect that it uses your profile information to help target > advertising at you. Again, this seems totally reasonable to me. > > I've written all this because I believe that social networks will be a > huge thing for blind folks, especially for job seeking, and various > kinds of social interaction. I highly recommend getting to know > facebook (http://www.facebook.com/) and linked in > (http://www.linkedin.com) > > Regards, > > Jim > > On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 02:30:55AM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> The Face book invitation that was posted to this group is one of the >> reasons why I haven't joined these types of web sites as they generate a >> lot of SPAM emails like this one that was posted to the group. There is > {<> also questions about how respectful these sites are regarding users > privacy. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Stephanie Ortoleva" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile >> >> >> >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen >> >reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to >> >using face book with window eyes? >> >Thanks, >> >Stephanie Ortoleva >> >At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: >> >>Hi blindlaw, >> >> >> >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and >> >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you >> >>need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own >> >>profile. >> >> >> >>Thanks, >> >>Michael >> >> >> >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: >> >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>blindlaw mailing list >> >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>blindlaw: >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40earthlink.net >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >blindlaw mailing list >> >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >blindlaw: >> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Fri Dec 5 16:16:35 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:16:35 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Gates Scholarships Message-ID: Gates Scholarships Funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, Gates Millennium Scholars (GMS) is currently seeking nominations for outstanding students of color seeking assistance with paying for college. You are invited to nominate outstanding students of color that you know and who you feel would benefit from this award. These scholarships, which the Gates Foundation awards to 1,000 students per year with exceptional GPAs and who demonstrate remarkable leadership abilities either through community service or in extracurricular activities, are for full-time undergraduates and some graduate study students. All applications must be submitted and postmarked by January 1, 2009. For the application and more information on this amazing opportunity, please visit the GMS Scholarship site. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Picture (Metafile) 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 631 bytes Desc: Picture (Metafile) 1.jpg URL: From womankind at earthlink.net Sat Dec 6 17:32:54 2008 From: womankind at earthlink.net (Stephanie Ortoleva) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 12:32:54 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these mobile devices/cell phones? Blackberry Storm, touch screen LG Dare, touchscreen LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that work with verizon? Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. Stephanie Ortoleva From jbar at barcore.com Sat Dec 6 19:43:31 2008 From: jbar at barcore.com (Jim Barbour) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:43:31 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081206194330.GC21360@barcore.com> Hey Stephanie, You'll do much better asking this question on electronics-talk at nfbnet.org Many people there have researched this ;) I can tell you that the storm is not accessible. My guess is that none of the touchscreen phones will be very accessible, but we can talk more on electronics-talk about what your constraints are and how we can help find something that works :) Hope that helps, Jim On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to > resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these > mobile devices/cell phones? > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > LG Dare, touchscreen > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to > use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that > work with verizon? > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > Stephanie Ortoleva > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sat Dec 6 20:50:36 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 12:50:36 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081206205036.GB12548@yumi.bluecherry.net> Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely accessible in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable platform you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can make a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with personal information management. Joseph On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to resources > that migh have information on the accessibility of these mobile > devices/cell phones? > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > LG Dare, touchscreen > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to use > verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that work with > verizon? > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > Stephanie Ortoleva From AZNOR99 at aol.com Sun Dec 7 01:11:43 2008 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 20:11:43 EST Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices Message-ID: I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs are compatible with their software. Ronza In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely accessible in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable platform you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can make a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with personal information management. Joseph On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to resources > that migh have information on the accessibility of these mobile > devices/cell phones? > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > LG Dare, touchscreen > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to use > verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that work with > verizon? > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > Stephanie Ortoleva _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) From jsorozco at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 02:38:10 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 21:38:10 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20ABA27CA5D941C1B5DABAB23B072E74@MonkeyPaw> The MotoQ does in fact work with Verizon, but having used it for the past year, I assure you it is only worth the investment if you're satisfied with slow performance. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:12 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs are compatible with their software. Ronza In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely accessible in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable platform you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can make a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with personal information management. Joseph On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to > resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these > mobile devices/cell phones? > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > LG Dare, touchscreen > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to > use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that > work with verizon? > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > Stephanie Ortoleva _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000 010) _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om From womankind at earthlink.net Sun Dec 7 03:16:31 2008 From: womankind at earthlink.net (Stephanie Ortoleva) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 22:16:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ronza, what is the talks webpage? Another software program for cell phones? Thanks. Stephanie At 08:11 PM 12/6/2008, you wrote: >I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code >Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs >are compatible >with their software. > >Ronza > > >In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: > >Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely accessible >in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run >Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable platform >you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can make >a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with personal >information management. > >Joseph > >On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to resources > > that migh have information on the accessibility of these mobile > > devices/cell phones? > > > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > > LG Dare, touchscreen > > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to use > > verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that work with > > verizon? > > > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > > > Stephanie Ortoleva > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > >**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and >favorite sites in one place. Try it now. >(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40earthlink.net From AZNOR99 at aol.com Sun Dec 7 15:10:58 2008 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:10:58 EST Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices Message-ID: I have the Sprint Version of the MotoQ, and I am very happy with it. It can text, handle email, browse the web, write and edit documents, handle appointments and alarms, and much more. The only drawbacks are that it is only compatible with Mobile Speak and it, like all windows platforms, occasionally freezes and needs to be rebooted. But that's just my opinion. Joe doesn't like it, and I'm sure he and I use it for many of the same reasons. So you might want to explore all of your options. Ronza In a message dated 12/6/2008 10:29:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jsorozco at gmail.com writes: The MotoQ does in fact work with Verizon, but having used it for the past year, I assure you it is only worth the investment if you're satisfied with slow performance. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:12 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs are compatible with their software. Ronza In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely accessible in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable platform you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can make a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with personal information management. Joseph On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to > resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these > mobile devices/cell phones? > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > LG Dare, touchscreen > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to > use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that > work with verizon? > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > Stephanie Ortoleva _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000 010) _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) From joramsey at cox.net Sun Dec 7 17:09:20 2008 From: joramsey at cox.net (John ) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:09:20 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question Message-ID: <251EBA65023441BBA9E391F61A32CE02@noneeb869fea9a> Hello All, i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the impression that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because she received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that everyone else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of the CFR that contains such a requirement? Cordially, John John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. Gainesville, FL 32609 Phone: (352) 505-6642 From roddj12 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 7 17:25:33 2008 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:25:33 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices References: Message-ID: Ronza: Do you use an external keyboard for document drafting with your Pocket PC? Or do you use the onboard one. Take care. Rod Alcidonis Criminal Defense Clinic Student Attorney Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices >I have the Sprint Version of the MotoQ, and I am very happy with it. It >can > text, handle email, browse the web, write and edit documents, handle > appointments and alarms, and much more. The only drawbacks are that it > is only > compatible with Mobile Speak and it, like all windows platforms, > occasionally > freezes and needs to be rebooted. But that's just my opinion. Joe > doesn't like > it, and I'm sure he and I use it for many of the same reasons. So you > might > want to explore all of your options. > > Ronza > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2008 10:29:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jsorozco at gmail.com writes: > > The MotoQ does in fact work with Verizon, but having used it for the past > year, I assure you it is only worth the investment if you're satisfied > with > slow performance. > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James > M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:12 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices > > I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code > Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs are > compatible with their software. > > Ronza > > > In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: > > Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely > accessible > in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run > Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable > platform > you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can > make > a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with > personal > information management. > > Joseph > > On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: >> Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to >> resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these >> mobile devices/cell phones? >> >> Blackberry Storm, touch screen >> LG Dare, touchscreen >> LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen >> >> I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to >> use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that >> work with verizon? >> >> Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. >> >> Stephanie Ortoleva > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000 > 010) > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > From jsorozco at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 19:12:10 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 14:12:10 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, and to be fair, I think much of my beef may have to do more with the software than with the phone. Verizon puts out the Pantech as well, but if you're down to choosing between the two, definitely go with the MotoQ as it is the lesser of two evils. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:11 AM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices I have the Sprint Version of the MotoQ, and I am very happy with it. It can text, handle email, browse the web, write and edit documents, handle appointments and alarms, and much more. The only drawbacks are that it is only compatible with Mobile Speak and it, like all windows platforms, occasionally freezes and needs to be rebooted. But that's just my opinion. Joe doesn't like it, and I'm sure he and I use it for many of the same reasons. So you might want to explore all of your options. Ronza In a message dated 12/6/2008 10:29:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jsorozco at gmail.com writes: The MotoQ does in fact work with Verizon, but having used it for the past year, I assure you it is only worth the investment if you're satisfied with slow performance. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:12 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs are compatible with their software. Ronza In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely accessible in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable platform you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can make a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with personal information management. Joseph On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to > resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these > mobile devices/cell phones? > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > LG Dare, touchscreen > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to > use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that > work with verizon? > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > Stephanie Ortoleva _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000 010) _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000 010) _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om From AZNOR99 at aol.com Sun Dec 7 19:46:42 2008 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 14:46:42 EST Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices Message-ID: I use the QWERTY keyboard that came with the phone. In a message dated 12/7/2008 1:38:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, roddj12 at hotmail.com writes: Ronza: Do you use an external keyboard for document drafting with your Pocket PC? Or do you use the onboard one. Take care. Rod Alcidonis Criminal Defense Clinic Student Attorney Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices >I have the Sprint Version of the MotoQ, and I am very happy with it. It >can > text, handle email, browse the web, write and edit documents, handle > appointments and alarms, and much more. The only drawbacks are that it > is only > compatible with Mobile Speak and it, like all windows platforms, > occasionally > freezes and needs to be rebooted. But that's just my opinion. Joe > doesn't like > it, and I'm sure he and I use it for many of the same reasons. So you > might > want to explore all of your options. > > Ronza > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2008 10:29:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jsorozco at gmail.com writes: > > The MotoQ does in fact work with Verizon, but having used it for the past > year, I assure you it is only worth the investment if you're satisfied > with > slow performance. > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James > M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:12 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices > > I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code > Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs are > compatible with their software. > > Ronza > > > In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: > > Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely > accessible > in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run > Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable > platform > you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can > make > a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with > personal > information management. > > Joseph > > On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: >> Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to >> resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these >> mobile devices/cell phones? >> >> Blackberry Storm, touch screen >> LG Dare, touchscreen >> LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen >> >> I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to >> use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that >> work with verizon? >> >> Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. >> >> Stephanie Ortoleva > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000 > 010) > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 7 20:33:44 2008 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:33:44 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject) Message-ID: <51179B61-01D5-489F-A6A8-CFDFADED8C2C@sbcglobal.net> Hey Ronza: How about a list of necessary practice manuals for a startup immigration practice? Tried the off list thing and couldn't get through to you. James From khagen12 at q.com Sun Dec 7 21:24:31 2008 From: khagen12 at q.com (Kathleen Hagen) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:24:31 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question References: <251EBA65023441BBA9E391F61A32CE02@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients in which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time soon. Kathy Hagen ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > Hello All, > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > impression > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because > she > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > everyone > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of the > CFR that contains such a requirement? > Cordially, > John > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com > From timandvickie at hotmail.com Sun Dec 7 22:23:11 2008 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 22:23:11 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <251EBA65023441BBA9E391F61A32CE02@noneeb869fea9a> References: <251EBA65023441BBA9E391F61A32CE02@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: i dont know about the legal requirement to do it, but they woudlnt have to send the letter to everyone that MAY have a visual impariment. If you are legally blind it should be on file in their system, i know it is in ym file with them. Otherwise you cant get the income adjustments and stuff related to being a blind individual which are different from those of just having a disability.> From: joramsey at cox.net> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:09:20 -0500> Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question> > Hello All,> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the impression> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because she> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that everyone> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of the> CFR that contains such a requirement?> Cordially,> John> > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.> > Gainesville, FL 32609> > Phone: (352) 505-6642> > > _______________________________________________> blindlaw mailing list> blindlaw at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 From AZNOR99 at aol.com Mon Dec 8 00:06:38 2008 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:06:38 EST Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject) Message-ID: Hmmm, Wonder why I never got your message. I'd say to go to _www.uscis.gov_ (http://www.uscis.gov) and read everything that's there first. Then go to the forms page and download all the instructions to all the forms. Pay particular attention to the Visa applications, Naturalization, and the forms that range from I-129 through I-134. Pay particular attention to I-485. For Asylum, you'll want to probably buy a book. Also, consider getting a LegalLines or some other outline book for Immigration Law and Policy (available at most law schools). Finally, do a google search on whatever particular area you want to work on, e.g. Visas for Religious Workers, and see what you find. If you get a removal case, we'll want to talk, as those are much more complicated with much higher stakes. But remember that immigration is largely a battle of forms. You need to impress an immigration officer, so good, thorough, comprehensive documentation with the initial application is key. Immigration litigation before an immigration judge is more complicated, but it's mostly done through your exhibit and not as much through oral argument. I don't use a hard and fast manual. But you can try to contact some of the immigration law clinics in your area and see what they might have for you. Good luck, Ronza In a message dated 12/7/2008 4:34:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net writes: Hey Ronza: How about a list of necessary practice manuals for a startup immigration practice? Tried the off list thing and couldn't get through to you. James _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) From joramsey at cox.net Mon Dec 8 02:09:35 2008 From: joramsey at cox.net (John ) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 21:09:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Kathy, That is what I thought. I doubt many of us on this list will be alive when the SSA has to use alternative formats across the board. Cordially, John John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. Gainesville, FL 32609 Phone: (352) 505-6642 -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen Hagen Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 4:25 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients in which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time soon. Kathy Hagen ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > Hello All, > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > impression > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because > she > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > everyone > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of the > CFR that contains such a requirement? > Cordially, > John > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 8 04:17:28 2008 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:17:28 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Ronza. On Dec 7, 2008, at 4:06 PM, AZNOR99 at aol.com wrote: > Hmmm, Wonder why I never got your message. > > I'd say to go to _www.uscis.gov_ (http://www.uscis.gov) and read > everything > that's there first. Then go to the forms page and download all the > instructions to all the forms. Pay particular attention to the > Visa applications, > Naturalization, and the forms that range from I-129 through I-134. > Pay > particular attention to I-485. For Asylum, you'll want to probably > buy a book. > Also, consider getting a LegalLines or some other outline book for > Immigration > Law and Policy (available at most law schools). Finally, do a > google search > on whatever particular area you want to work on, e.g. Visas for > Religious > Workers, and see what you find. > > If you get a removal case, we'll want to talk, as those are much more > complicated with much higher stakes. But remember that immigration > is largely a > battle of forms. You need to impress an immigration officer, so > good, > thorough, comprehensive documentation with the initial application > is key. > Immigration litigation before an immigration judge is more > complicated, but it's > mostly done through your exhibit and not as much through oral > argument. > > I don't use a hard and fast manual. But you can try to contact > some of the > immigration law clinics in your area and see what they might have > for you. > > Good luck, > Ronza > > > > In a message dated 12/7/2008 4:34:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net writes: > > Hey Ronza: > > How about a list of necessary practice manuals for a startup > immigration practice? Tried the off list thing and couldn't get > through to you. > > James > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010 > ) > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 8 07:40:45 2008 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 23:40:45 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <251EBA65023441BBA9E391F61A32CE02@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say that materials were available in Braille and people could receive communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients in > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean > that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. > And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' > money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they > provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't > expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time > soon. > Kathy Hagen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John " > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >> Hello All, >> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >> impression >> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because >> she >> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >> everyone >> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a >> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an >> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual >> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >> the >> CFR that contains such a requirement? >> Cordially, >> John >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From joramsey at cox.net Mon Dec 8 10:09:31 2008 From: joramsey at cox.net (John ) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 05:09:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Chuck, I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in an accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all hold blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. Take care, John John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. Gainesville, FL 32609 Phone: (352) 505-6642 -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say that materials were available in Braille and people could receive communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > in > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean > that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. > And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' > money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they > provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't > expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time > soon. > Kathy Hagen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John " > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >> Hello All, >> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >> impression >> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because >> she >> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >> everyone >> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a >> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an >> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual >> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >> the >> CFR that contains such a requirement? >> Cordially, >> John >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob al.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From b75205 at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 11:07:06 2008 From: b75205 at gmail.com (b75205 at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:07:06 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question Message-ID: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of technologies. I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought out in California. James Pepper On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say that materials were available in Braille and people could receive communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients in which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time soon. > > > Kathy Hagen > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the impression > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because she > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that everyone > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of the > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > Cordially, > > > John > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > From JMcCarthy at nfb.org Mon Dec 8 14:26:58 2008 From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org (McCarthy, Jim) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:26:58 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> Message-ID: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> When doing some other review of the Social Security Act, I noticed that there are provisions requiring special treatment of notices blind recipients of Social Security Disability Insurance and Supplemental Security Income receive from the agency. The provisions seem to permit the poor notice the agency provides. Right now the agency will not provide Braille notices, but they can read notices by phone, notify a recipient by sending the notice as a certified letter or something else. All of these have substantial challenges if we assume the goal is to actually provide notice. I am sure though that the agency will probably say it is following statutory authority. It will be interesting to see how the court thinks that stacks up to any Section 504 requirements on the point. My personal feeling is that if the SSA does not have to send accessible format information, no government entity will have to do so and I also think that would make a pretty strong argument that private entities such as banks or credit card issuers do not either. I think, therefore, that this is a pretty important case. Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:07 AM To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net; blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of technologies. I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought out in California. James Pepper On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > that materials were available in Braille and people could receive communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > in which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time soon. > > > Kathy Hagen > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the impression > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because she > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that everyone > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of the > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > Cordially, > > > John > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc global.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail .com > > > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf b.org From b75205 at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 18:06:35 2008 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:06:35 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: Charles and Jim: SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do with their charter, they are required to be accessible. Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with the forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social Security Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for the blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This confuses the issue. What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you can walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the content with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there in front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by the IT people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test their pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by the blind. It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you go through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it is not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible or it isn't there is no in between. IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs like Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests only test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they are not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with the programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they take them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, this means that nothing is done when they do it wrong. This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the Texas Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming its products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were not accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The demonstrated the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is now in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible accessibility. The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The question is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does ACM insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive forms and documents. The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into this all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But that doesn't mean they know how to do it. You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon an accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you must do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online seminars how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents videos from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast of flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no regard for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule was in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on automatically. So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. The first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited for W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium) compliance is a test to determine if your website's code is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to determine if their IT people know what they are doing. Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace them with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up webpages, make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies and states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be fixing bad code with other bad code. IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot do it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, the Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other way around. Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not braille. I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS and Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies who think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are English only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act? There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can make SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not have all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most of SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot of time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think SSA could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already familiar with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT people that things are possible because after all, they run the agency. Sincerely, James G. Pepper From timandvickie at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 18:11:09 2008 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:11:09 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: eh sadly it is common practice for the government to make itself and any companies it contracts with exempt from satuatory requirments that effect other entities. SSA sucks with "notices" all around. I just got a letter from them telling me they want me at their office for my annual review TOMMORROW. Kinda short notice dont you think? No time to arrange transporation.> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:26:58 -0500> From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question> > When doing some other review of the Social Security Act, I noticed that> there are provisions requiring special treatment of notices blind> recipients of Social Security Disability Insurance and Supplemental> Security Income receive from the agency. The provisions seem to permit> the poor notice the agency provides. Right now the agency will not> provide Braille notices, but they can read notices by phone, notify a> recipient by sending the notice as a certified letter or something else.> All of these have substantial challenges if we assume the goal is to> actually provide notice. I am sure though that the agency will probably> say it is following statutory authority. It will be interesting to see> how the court thinks that stacks up to any Section 504 requirements on> the point. My personal feeling is that if the SSA does not have to send> accessible format information, no government entity will have to do so> and I also think that would make a pretty strong argument that private> entities such as banks or credit card issuers do not either. I think,> therefore, that this is a pretty important case.> Jim McCarthy> > -----Original Message-----> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]> On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:07 AM> To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net; blindlaw at nfbnet.org> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question> > Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for> the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested> my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into> that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of> technologies. > I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought> out in California.> > James Pepper> > > On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote:> > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > > that> materials were available in Braille and people could receive> communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I> was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when> it was discontinued.> >> >> > Chuck> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com>> >> >> > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> >> >> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM> >> >> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > in> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not> mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials> yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the> taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people> and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend> shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative> format any time soon.> >> >> > Kathy Hagen> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net>> >> >> > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> >> >> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM> >> >> > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Hello All,> >> >> > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the> impression> >> >> > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights> because > she> >> >> > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > everyone> >> >> > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in> a> >> >> > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires> an> >> >> > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a> visual> >> >> > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of> the> >> >> > CFR that contains such a requirement?> >> >> > Cordially,> >> >> > John> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.> >> >> >> >> >> > Gainesville, FL 32609> >> >> >> >> >> > Phone: (352) 505-6642> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for> > blindlaw:> >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c> om> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for> > blindlaw:> >> >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc> global.net> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for> > blindlaw:> >> >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail> .com> >> >> >> _______________________________________________> blindlaw mailing list> blindlaw at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for> blindlaw:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf> b.org> > _______________________________________________> blindlaw mailing list> blindlaw at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 From mikefry79 at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 19:56:57 2008 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:56:57 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0812081156p7187b3f6wcc3d79989ce9c80e@mail.gmail.com> Sounds like Mr. Pepper knows what he's talking about. I forwarded this email thread to Disability Rights Advocates (DRA). I think DRA is the powerhouse Berekly botuiqe law firm that prosecuted the Target accessibility case. They may find this information useful. Mike On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:06 AM, James Pepper wrote: > Charles and Jim: > SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be > accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do > with > their charter, they are required to be accessible. > > Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with the > forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social > Security > Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for the > blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more > concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This confuses > the issue. > > What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you can > walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the content > with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there in > front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by the > IT > people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test their > pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by the > blind. > > It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you go > through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it is > not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible or > it > isn't there is no in between. > > IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs like > Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests only > test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they are > not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for > compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with the > programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they take > them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, > this > means that nothing is done when they do it wrong. > > This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the Texas > Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming > its > products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were > not > accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The demonstrated > the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is now > in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible > accessibility. > > The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows > that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The question > is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does ACM > insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive forms > and documents. > > The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is > accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into this > all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge > their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But > that doesn't mean they know how to do it. > > You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon an > accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as > fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you > must > do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online > seminars > how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents videos > from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from > showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast of > flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no regard > for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule was > in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on > automatically. > > So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. > The > first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited for > W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in > minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites > should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium) > compliance is a test to determine if your website's code > is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write > code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to > determine if their IT people know what they are doing. > > Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they > actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace them > with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up webpages, > make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies and > states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be > fixing bad code with other bad code. > > IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they > control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their > jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot do > it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The > problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, > the > Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other way > around. > > Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal > protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not > braille. > > I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS and > Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies > who > think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are > English > only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish > descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act? > > There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do > it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix > this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can make > SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and > Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not have > all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most of > SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot of > time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF > format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think > SSA > could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and > integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already > familiar > with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT people > that things are possible because after all, they run the agency. > > Sincerely, > > James G. Pepper > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 20:14:32 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:14:32 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: <20081208201432.GA28827@yumi.bluecherry.net> James, I think you're confusing the issue here by trying to mix websites with paper documents. The issue being discussed is that SSA does not believe it is required to provide paper documents, notices, and other mailings in a format that a blind person can read without assistance. Jim's assessment is that if the SSA can successfully argue that it is not required under the law to provide things such as award letters or notices of changes in an accessible format, then we're hard pressed to argue that banks, utility companies, and others who currently already do should be expected to continue the practice. From my own experience, the dot-matrix printed bill I receive from my electric company usually does not scan very well. If the SSA can't be bothered to send out accessible notices, why should my city be expected to send out a bill I can read, with or without technology? Jim is right, this is an important issue. More important because the usual target population for SSA are seniors who tend to lose eyesight and not have access to all of the wonderful scanners and other toys you and I get to play with. Their website is a whole 'nother issue. It basically works, most of the time, for some version of "works" that involves it being as difficult to deal with as anything related to the SSA. At least they're consistent. Joseph On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 12:06:35PM -0600, James Pepper wrote: >Charles and Jim: >SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be >accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do with >their charter, they are required to be accessible. > >Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with the >forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social Security >Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for the >blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more >concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This confuses >the issue. > >What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you can >walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the content >with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there in >front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by the IT >people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test their >pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by the >blind. > >It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you go >through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it is >not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible or it >isn't there is no in between. > >IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs like >Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests only >test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they are >not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for >compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with the >programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they take >them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, this >means that nothing is done when they do it wrong. > >This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the Texas >Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming its >products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were not >accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The demonstrated >the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is now >in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible >accessibility. > >The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows >that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The question >is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does ACM >insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive forms >and documents. > >The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is >accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into this >all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge >their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But >that doesn't mean they know how to do it. > >You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon an >accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as >fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you must >do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online seminars >how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents videos >from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from >showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast of >flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no regard >for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule was >in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on >automatically. > >So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. The >first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited for >W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in >minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites >should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium) >compliance is a test to determine if your website's code >is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write >code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to >determine if their IT people know what they are doing. > >Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they >actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace them >with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up webpages, >make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies and >states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be >fixing bad code with other bad code. > >IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they >control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their >jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot do >it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The >problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, the >Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other way >around. > >Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal >protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not >braille. > >I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS and >Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies who >think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are English >only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish >descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act? > >There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do >it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix >this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can make >SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and >Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not have >all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most of >SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot of >time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF >format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think SSA >could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and >integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already familiar >with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT people >that things are possible because after all, they run the agency. > >Sincerely, > >James G. Pepper >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From craig.borne at dot.gov Mon Dec 8 20:43:42 2008 From: craig.borne at dot.gov (craig.borne at dot.gov) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:43:42 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com><33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E13F23D@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> Section 508 is strictly "Electronic and Information Technology" and would not apply in this situation. More likely, Section 504, which applies to program access, would be applicable here. Of course, access to the SSA website, electronic documentation, and other technological apparatus is important, but if the SSA doesn't send electronic notices to clients, then they don't necessarily have to do it for blind clients under Section 508. Section 504 is a totally different matter, one that Jim discussed perfectly. Best, Craig Craig Borne, Esq. NHTSA/DOT (202) 493-0627 craig.borne at dot.gov -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Pepper Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:07 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question Charles and Jim: SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do with their charter, they are required to be accessible. Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with the forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social Security Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for the blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This confuses the issue. What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you can walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the content with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there in front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by the IT people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test their pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by the blind. It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you go through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it is not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible or it isn't there is no in between. IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs like Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests only test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they are not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with the programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they take them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, this means that nothing is done when they do it wrong. This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the Texas Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming its products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were not accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The demonstrated the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is now in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible accessibility. The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The question is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does ACM insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive forms and documents. The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into this all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But that doesn't mean they know how to do it. You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon an accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you must do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online seminars how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents videos from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast of flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no regard for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule was in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on automatically. So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. The first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited for W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium) compliance is a test to determine if your website's code is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to determine if their IT people know what they are doing. Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace them with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up webpages, make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies and states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be fixing bad code with other bad code. IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot do it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, the Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other way around. Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not braille. I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS and Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies who think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are English only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act? There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can make SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not have all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most of SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot of time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think SSA could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already familiar with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT people that things are possible because after all, they run the agency. Sincerely, James G. Pepper _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/craig.borne%40 dot.gov From timandvickie at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 21:17:14 2008 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:17:14 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: kinda off subject of the forms, but it drives me crazy how many people post forms on their sites, but dont seem smart enough to make the forms fillable electronically. Its not a very hard thing to do takes all of about 5 minutes. I used to build forms for the Army so I have experience doing it. I think i might start a business jsut building forms for companies lol.> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:06:35 -0600> From: b75205 at gmail.com> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question> > Charles and Jim:> SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be> accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do with> their charter, they are required to be accessible.> > Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with the> forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social Security> Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for the> blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more> concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This confuses> the issue.> > What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you can> walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the content> with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there in> front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by the IT> people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test their> pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by the> blind.> > It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you go> through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it is> not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible or it> isn't there is no in between.> > IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs like> Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests only> test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they are> not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for> compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with the> programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they take> them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, this> means that nothing is done when they do it wrong.> > This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the Texas> Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming its> products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were not> accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The demonstrated> the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is now> in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible> accessibility.> > The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows> that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The question> is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does ACM> insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive forms> and documents.> > The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is> accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into this> all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge> their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But> that doesn't mean they know how to do it.> > You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon an> accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as> fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you must> do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online seminars> how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents videos> from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from> showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast of> flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no regard> for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule was> in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on> automatically.> > So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. The> first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited for> W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in> minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites> should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium)> compliance is a test to determine if your website's code> is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write> code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to> determine if their IT people know what they are doing.> > Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they> actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace them> with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up webpages,> make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies and> states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be> fixing bad code with other bad code.> > IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they> control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their> jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot do> it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The> problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, the> Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other way> around.> > Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal> protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not> braille.> > I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS and> Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies who> think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are English> only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish> descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act?> > There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do> it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix> this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can make> SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and> Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not have> all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most of> SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot of> time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF> format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think SSA> could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and> integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already familiar> with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT people> that things are possible because after all, they run the agency.> > Sincerely,> > James G. Pepper> _______________________________________________> blindlaw mailing list> blindlaw at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 8 22:22:04 2008 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 14:22:04 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6746C4E4C4164149BD349285043A7F29@spike> I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of activity regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering readable by screen readers. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > Hi Chuck, > I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in an > accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all hold > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. > Take care, > John > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say that > materials were available in Braille and people could receive > communications > from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm > not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kathleen Hagen" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >> John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients >> in >> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not >> mean > >> that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. >> And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' >> money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they >> provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't >> expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any >> time > >> soon. >> Kathy Hagen >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John " >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >> Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >>> Hello All, >>> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >>> impression >>> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because >>> she >>> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >>> everyone >>> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a >>> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an >>> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual >>> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >>> the >>> CFR that contains such a requirement? >>> Cordially, >>> John >>> >>> >>> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >>> >>> Gainesville, FL 32609 >>> >>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob > al.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From RWayne1 at nyc.rr.com Tue Dec 9 01:57:58 2008 From: RWayne1 at nyc.rr.com (Ray Wayne) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:57:58 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question References: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: <007701c959a1$8f8785c0$5451f443@nyc.rr.com> I would agree with John, but for one factor--some of these notices are time-sensitive. For instance, as I recall, if they terminate your benefits, you have 60 days to request reconsideration. However, in order to receive "Aid Pending," you must make the request within ten days. Otherwise your benefits will be stopped until the matter is resolved, which could take months or years. Many blind people on fixed incomes probably do not have scanners or KNFB Reader Mobiles, and thus may not learn the contents of their print mail on a daily basis. And we all know how unreliable telephone messages can be. Ray Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "McCarthy, Jim" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:26 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > When doing some other review of the Social Security Act, I noticed that > there are provisions requiring special treatment of notices blind > recipients of Social Security Disability Insurance and Supplemental > Security Income receive from the agency. The provisions seem to permit > the poor notice the agency provides. Right now the agency will not > provide Braille notices, but they can read notices by phone, notify a > recipient by sending the notice as a certified letter or something else. > All of these have substantial challenges if we assume the goal is to > actually provide notice. I am sure though that the agency will probably > say it is following statutory authority. It will be interesting to see > how the court thinks that stacks up to any Section 504 requirements on > the point. My personal feeling is that if the SSA does not have to send > accessible format information, no government entity will have to do so > and I also think that would make a pretty strong argument that private > entities such as banks or credit card issuers do not either. I think, > therefore, that this is a pretty important case. > Jim McCarthy > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:07 AM > To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net; blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for > the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested > my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into > that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of > technologies. > I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought > out in California. > > James Pepper > > > On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > > that > materials were available in Braille and people could receive > communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I > was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when > it was discontinued. > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > in > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not > mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials > yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the > taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people > and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend > shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative > format any time soon. > > > > > > Kathy Hagen > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > impression > > > > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights > because > she > > > > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > everyone > > > > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in > a > > > > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires > an > > > > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a > visual > > > > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of > the > > > > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c > om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > global.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail > .com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf > b.org > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c om From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 9 02:35:07 2008 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:35:07 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question References: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> <007701c959a1$8f8785c0$5451f443@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <00e701c959a6$c04f8590$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> I wonder if another solution to this wouldn't be a top-down one: Contact President Elect Obama's administration and state the case that blind people could be put to work as Braillists for the SSA and other government entities. This project seems to me to parallel the infrastructure initiative that is the backbone, apparently, of Obama's economy boosting plan, and addressing the unemployment issue. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Wayne" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >I would agree with John, but for one factor--some of these notices are > time-sensitive. For instance, as I recall, if they terminate your > benefits, > you have 60 days to request reconsideration. However, in order to receive > "Aid Pending," you must make the request within ten days. Otherwise your > benefits will be stopped until the matter is resolved, which could take > months or years. Many blind people on fixed incomes probably do not have > scanners or KNFB Reader Mobiles, and thus may not learn the contents of > their print mail on a daily basis. And we all know how unreliable > telephone > messages can be. > Ray Wayne > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "McCarthy, Jim" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:26 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >> When doing some other review of the Social Security Act, I noticed that >> there are provisions requiring special treatment of notices blind >> recipients of Social Security Disability Insurance and Supplemental >> Security Income receive from the agency. The provisions seem to permit >> the poor notice the agency provides. Right now the agency will not >> provide Braille notices, but they can read notices by phone, notify a >> recipient by sending the notice as a certified letter or something else. >> All of these have substantial challenges if we assume the goal is to >> actually provide notice. I am sure though that the agency will probably >> say it is following statutory authority. It will be interesting to see >> how the court thinks that stacks up to any Section 504 requirements on >> the point. My personal feeling is that if the SSA does not have to send >> accessible format information, no government entity will have to do so >> and I also think that would make a pretty strong argument that private >> entities such as banks or credit card issuers do not either. I think, >> therefore, that this is a pretty important case. >> Jim McCarthy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:07 AM >> To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net; blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for >> the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested >> my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into >> that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of >> technologies. >> I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought >> out in California. >> >> James Pepper >> >> >> On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say >> > that >> materials were available in Braille and people could receive >> communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I >> was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when >> it was discontinued. >> > >> > >> > Chuck >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> >> > >> > >> > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> > >> > >> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM >> > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients >> > in >> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not >> mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials >> yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the >> taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people >> and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend >> shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative >> format any time soon. >> > >> > >> > Kathy Hagen >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> >> > >> > >> > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> > >> > >> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >> > >> > >> > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hello All, >> > >> > >> > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >> impression >> > >> > >> > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights >> because >> she >> > >> > >> > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >> everyone >> > >> > >> > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in >> a >> > >> > >> > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires >> an >> > >> > >> > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a >> visual >> > >> > >> > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >> the >> > >> > >> > CFR that contains such a requirement? >> > >> > >> > Cordially, >> > >> > >> > John >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Gainesville, FL 32609 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > >> > >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> blindlaw: >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c >> om >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > >> > >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> blindlaw: >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc >> global.net >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > >> > >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> blindlaw: >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail >> .com >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf >> b.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net From b75205 at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 03:13:29 2008 From: b75205 at gmail.com (b75205 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 03:13:29 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question Message-ID: <00221532c8ac0de59d045d948728@google.com> I tried that, they are just as clueless as the republicans. On Dec 8, 2008 8:35pm, Mark BurningHawk wrote: > I wonder if another solution to this wouldn't be a top-down one: Contact President Elect Obama's administration and state the case that blind people could be put to work as Braillists for the SSA and other government entities. This project seems to me to parallel the infrastructure initiative that is the backbone, apparently, of Obama's economy boosting plan, and addressing the unemployment issue. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Wayne" RWayne1 at nyc.rr.com> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:57 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > I would agree with John, but for one factor--some of these notices are > > > time-sensitive. For instance, as I recall, if they terminate your benefits, > > > you have 60 days to request reconsideration. However, in order to receive > > > "Aid Pending," you must make the request within ten days. Otherwise your > > > benefits will be stopped until the matter is resolved, which could take > > > months or years. Many blind people on fixed incomes probably do not have > > > scanners or KNFB Reader Mobiles, and thus may not learn the contents of > > > their print mail on a daily basis. And we all know how unreliable telephone > > > messages can be. > > > Ray Wayne > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "McCarthy, Jim" JMcCarthy at nfb.org> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:26 AM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > When doing some other review of the Social Security Act, I noticed that > > > there are provisions requiring special treatment of notices blind > > > recipients of Social Security Disability Insurance and Supplemental > > > Security Income receive from the agency. The provisions seem to permit > > > the poor notice the agency provides. Right now the agency will not > > > provide Braille notices, but they can read notices by phone, notify a > > > recipient by sending the notice as a certified letter or something else. > > > All of these have substantial challenges if we assume the goal is to > > > actually provide notice. I am sure though that the agency will probably > > > say it is following statutory authority. It will be interesting to see > > > how the court thinks that stacks up to any Section 504 requirements on > > > the point. My personal feeling is that if the SSA does not have to send > > > accessible format information, no government entity will have to do so > > > and I also think that would make a pretty strong argument that private > > > entities such as banks or credit card issuers do not either. I think, > > > therefore, that this is a pretty important case. > > > Jim McCarthy > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > > > On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:07 AM > > > To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net; blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for > > > the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested > > > my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into > > > that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of > > > technologies. > > > I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought > > > out in California. > > > > > > James Pepper > > > > > > > > > On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > > > > that > > > materials were available in Braille and people could receive > > > communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I > > > was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when > > > it was discontinued. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > > > in > > > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not > > > mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials > > > yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the > > > taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people > > > and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend > > > shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative > > > format any time soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kathy Hagen > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > > > > > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > > > impression > > > > > > > > > > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights > > > because > > > she > > > > > > > > > > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > > > everyone > > > > > > > > > > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a > > > visual > > > > > > > > > > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > > > > > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c > > > om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > > > global.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail > > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf > > > b.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c > > > om > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 9 15:25:22 2008 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 07:25:22 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question References: <6746C4E4C4164149BD349285043A7F29@spike> Message-ID: <012a01c95a12$5ac3c3a0$6601a8c0@server> Hi John, Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and I am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully accessible to the blind. The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution to my client's problem. As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a strong constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of activity >regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as >captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering readable >by screen readers. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John " > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >> Hi Chuck, >> I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in an >> accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all >> hold >> blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. >> Take care, >> John >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say that >> materials were available in Braille and people could receive >> communications >> from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. >> I'm >> not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kathleen Hagen" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >>> John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients >>> in >>> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not >>> mean >> >>> that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. >>> And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' >>> money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they >>> provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend >>> shouldn't >>> expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any >>> time >> >>> soon. >>> Kathy Hagen >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "John " >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >>> >>> >>>> Hello All, >>>> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >>>> impression >>>> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because >>>> she >>>> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >>>> everyone >>>> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in >>>> a >>>> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires >>>> an >>>> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a >>>> visual >>>> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >>>> the >>>> CFR that contains such a requirement? >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32609 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob >> al.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From b75205 at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 17:25:39 2008 From: b75205 at gmail.com (b75205 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:25:39 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question Message-ID: <000325574ceaa78bc3045da06e10@google.com> Dennis: The ACB lawsuit is against Social Security and they are the ones doing the "hand holding" as they are concentrating on making everything turned into text but unformatted text or text made from PDF files is usually a mess, especially if it was created using a mac in InDesign and translated into a PDF file on a Windows based computer and then turned into a text file. You see this stuff all the time, and it looks like people just do not care but in reality they did not consider the transition from one format to the other. The NFB lawsuit is great, it finally breaches the gap from the public to the private sector. I tried to do this with the National Voter Registration form by showing that if the states were willing to deny the right to vote to people because they made their voter registration forms incaccessible then we could use the laws of the Voting Rights Act to force Integration under the Civil rights Act of 1964 which enables the 14th Amendment Section 2 to be imposed upon the states if they do not comply, and this would to everyone in the state, not just the public sector. Social Security was required to be accessible to the blind 35 years ago under the Rehabiliation Act of 1973. There is no excuse. They were required to do this in 1998 under Section 508 of the Rehabiliation Act and here is the law. http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3 What we need here is a review of accessibility law and make sure everyone understands that the federal government mandated accessibility years ago and nobody has complied. And they have not complied because IT people refuse to do it. It is that simple. Managers have been told that it is too expensive or that it is impossible. That's Bull. It can be done and it can be done when people make the documents, and the only thing preventing accessibility is the knowledge of how to do it and the pride of IT officials who do not know how to do it and refuse to budge and learn. The Target lawsuit is so out of whack I cannot beleive it. The problem with Target is that they probably are using an old database and so they would have to get a new one. Chances are they have not updated their software. That could be rather expensive but they will have to do it anyway, just for security issues alone. Target has always had a corporate mentality of being able to do anything they want and so when the federal government mandates things to them, they tend to consider it a nuisance and so they are not handling this well at all. You would think that given they just lost the case they would have fixed their site by now, but they haven't. And what is amazing is that it is so easy to do this. Accessibility is easy to those who know how to do it. This is what accessibility gets down to is using new software and having the right people who know how to write code properly create the websites with the idea that accessibility is the prime issue. Many people in IT think that if you make a website standards compliant that that makes it accessible, but you have to put accessibility features into the site. Of coure Targets site is not web standards compliant. No, Target needs to fire its IT People and hire people who will keep them out of lawsuits. The costs of the lawyers and the settlement could have been put into updating their database and hiring people to fix their site. Also if they fix their site they would be able to use it on Cell phones and Iphones. The transition to Web 2 is almost the same requirements to start a website to accessibility, so Target is still in the dark ages of web design. This is such a waste. The reality of Accessibility is that it shows that IT people have no clue what they are doing and they are getting caught. They are getting caught being unprofessional, they are getting caught writing code that is written badly, they are illiterate when it comes to writing computer code. They are leaving their corporations out to dry. James Pepper On Dec 9, 2008 9:25am, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hi John, > > > Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and I am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully accessible to the blind. The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. > > > > > > Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. > > > > > > Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution to my client's problem. > > > > > > As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a strong constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. > > > > > > I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Dennis > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of activity regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering readable by screen readers. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, > > > I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in an > > > accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all hold > > > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. > > > Take care, > > > John > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say that > > > materials were available in Braille and people could receive communications > > > from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm > > > not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > > in > > > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean > > > > > > > > > > that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. > > > And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' > > > money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they > > > provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't > > > expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time > > > > > > > > > > soon. > > > Kathy Hagen > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > > > impression > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because > > > she > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > > > everyone > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of > > > the > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > Cordially, > > > John > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob > > > al.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > From joramsey at cox.net Tue Dec 9 18:47:37 2008 From: joramsey at cox.net (John ) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:47:37 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <012a01c95a12$5ac3c3a0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <6403719F7F0F40C0898B8CDD391222F3@noneeb869fea9a> Hello Dennis, As always, you argument is sound and I was not referring to the Target suit. I am in full agreement with you on that issue. I was referring to the accessible currency suit that is somewhere in the litigation chain. I think that the government will eventually change the currency out of utility if nothing else but arguing that the blind cannot even manage their own money without it being made in different sizes or whatever else is a bit much for me. I am glad to be able to hear from you again Dennis you were a great help and role model for me in law school. Cordially, John Ramsey John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. Gainesville, FL 32609 Phone: (352) 505-6642 -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:25 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question Hi John, Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and I am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully accessible to the blind. The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution to my client's problem. As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a strong constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of >activity >regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as >captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering readable >by screen readers. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John " > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >> Hi Chuck, >> I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in >> an accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's >> all hold blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. >> Take care, >> John >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> ckrugman at sbcglobal.net >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say >> that materials were available in Braille and people could receive >> communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I >> was growing up. I'm >> not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kathleen Hagen" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >>> John, There is a certified class for blind social security >>> recipients in which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. >>> That does not mean >> >>> that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials >>> yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the >>> taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind >>> people and they provide general materials in braille at least. But >>> your friend shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in >>> alternative format any time >> >>> soon. >>> Kathy Hagen >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "John " >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >>> >>> >>>> Hello All, >>>> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >>>> impression that the Social Security Administration is violating her >>>> rights because she >>>> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >>>> everyone >>>> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in >>>> a >>>> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires >>>> an >>>> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a >>>> visual >>>> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >>>> the >>>> CFR that contains such a requirement? >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32609 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40 >> q.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglob >> al.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40 >> cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob al.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From fairall at shellworld.net Tue Dec 9 22:11:47 2008 From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:11:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <00221532c8ac0de59d045d948728@google.com> References: <00221532c8ac0de59d045d948728@google.com> Message-ID: Being uneducated on specific disability issues is universal and crosses party lines. On Tue, 9 Dec 2008, b75205 at gmail.com wrote: > I tried that, they are just as clueless as the republicans. > > On Dec 8, 2008 8:35pm, Mark BurningHawk wrote: >> I wonder if another solution to this wouldn't be a top-down one: Contact > President Elect Obama's administration and state the case that blind people > could be put to work as Braillists for the SSA and other government entities. > This project seems to me to parallel the infrastructure initiative that is > the backbone, apparently, of Obama's economy boosting plan, and addressing > the unemployment issue. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Wayne" RWayne1 at nyc.rr.com> >> >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:57 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I would agree with John, but for one factor--some of these notices are >> >> >> time-sensitive. For instance, as I recall, if they terminate your > benefits, >> >> >> you have 60 days to request reconsideration. However, in order to receive >> >> >> "Aid Pending," you must make the request within ten days. Otherwise your >> >> >> benefits will be stopped until the matter is resolved, which could take >> >> >> months or years. Many blind people on fixed incomes probably do not have >> >> >> scanners or KNFB Reader Mobiles, and thus may not learn the contents of >> >> >> their print mail on a daily basis. And we all know how unreliable > telephone >> >> >> messages can be. >> >> >> Ray Wayne >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "McCarthy, Jim" JMcCarthy at nfb.org> >> >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:26 AM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> When doing some other review of the Social Security Act, I noticed that >> >> >> there are provisions requiring special treatment of notices blind >> >> >> recipients of Social Security Disability Insurance and Supplemental >> >> >> Security Income receive from the agency. The provisions seem to permit >> >> >> the poor notice the agency provides. Right now the agency will not >> >> >> provide Braille notices, but they can read notices by phone, notify a >> >> >> recipient by sending the notice as a certified letter or something else. >> >> >> All of these have substantial challenges if we assume the goal is to >> >> >> actually provide notice. I am sure though that the agency will probably >> >> >> say it is following statutory authority. It will be interesting to see >> >> >> how the court thinks that stacks up to any Section 504 requirements on >> >> >> the point. My personal feeling is that if the SSA does not have to send >> >> >> accessible format information, no government entity will have to do so >> >> >> and I also think that would make a pretty strong argument that private >> >> >> entities such as banks or credit card issuers do not either. I think, >> >> >> therefore, that this is a pretty important case. >> >> >> Jim McCarthy >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> >> >> On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com >> >> >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:07 AM >> >> >> To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net; blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for >> >> >> the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested >> >> >> my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into >> >> >> that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of >> >> >> technologies. >> >> >> I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought >> >> >> out in California. >> >> >> >> >> >> James Pepper >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> >> >> > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say >> >> >> > that >> >> >> materials were available in Braille and people could receive >> >> >> communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I >> >> >> was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when >> >> >> it was discontinued. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Chuck >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients >> >> >> > in >> >> >> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not >> >> >> mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials >> >> >> yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the >> >> >> taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people >> >> >> and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend >> >> >> shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative >> >> >> format any time soon. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Kathy Hagen >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Hello All, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >> >> >> impression >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights >> >> >> because >> >> >> she >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >> >> >> everyone >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in >> >> >> a >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires >> >> >> an >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a >> >> >> visual >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >> >> >> the >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > CFR that contains such a requirement? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Cordially, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > John >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c >> >> >> om >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc >> >> >> global.net >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail >> >> >> .com >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf >> >> >> b.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c >> >> >> om >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40shellworld.net > > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 10 00:39:10 2008 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:39:10 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <012a01c95a12$5ac3c3a0$6601a8c0@server> References: <6746C4E4C4164149BD349285043A7F29@spike> <012a01c95a12$5ac3c3a0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <1E18240147DE4D83B087701C65339FCF@spike> I think the ACB handholding case referred to was the case involving the Treasury Department regardeing accessible currency. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > Hi John, > Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and I > am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in > practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you > are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually > launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability > Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did > this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no > problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully > accessible to the blind. The Target action can of course be argued as > "hand holding," since there are alternatives for reading any website, such > as using a reader, or the free market solution of simply shopping at a > store which demonstrates that it wants the business of blind people by > offering an accessible website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. > After all, everything is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the > accessibility alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. > > Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible > communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because > unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many > shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are forced > to interact with the Social Security Administration. > > Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind recipients > to tell them about any problems or written communications being mailed to > them, so we are not asking them to do something new or unworkable. I know > for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I represented someone > before the Social Security Administration, and this procedure was already > in place and was offered as part of the solution to my client's problem. > > As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a strong > constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is > the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. > It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I am > confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they result > from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. > > I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. > > All the best, > > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >>I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of activity >>regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as >>captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering readable >>by screen readers. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John " >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >>> Hi Chuck, >>> I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in an >>> accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all >>> hold >>> blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. >>> Take care, >>> John >>> >>> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >>> >>> Gainesville, FL 32609 >>> >>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net >>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >>> >>> >>> Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say >>> that >>> materials were available in Braille and people could receive >>> communications >>> from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. >>> I'm >>> not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. >>> Chuck >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kathleen Hagen" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >>> >>> >>>> John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients >>>> in >>>> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not >>>> mean >>> >>>> that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. >>>> And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' >>>> money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they >>>> provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend >>>> shouldn't >>>> expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any >>>> time >>> >>>> soon. >>>> Kathy Hagen >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "John " >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hello All, >>>>> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >>>>> impression >>>>> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights >>>>> because >>>>> she >>>>> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >>>>> everyone >>>>> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in >>>>> a >>>>> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires >>>>> an >>>>> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a >>>>> visual >>>>> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >>>>> the >>>>> CFR that contains such a requirement? >>>>> Cordially, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >>>>> >>>>> Gainesville, FL 32609 >>>>> >>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob >>> al.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From leadinglabbie at mpmail.net Wed Dec 10 07:57:07 2008 From: leadinglabbie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 01:57:07 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] EEOC plans to rush regs for ADA Amendments Act Message-ID: I have been asked to circulate the following: David Andrews Hello Dave, I received the following from the Justice for All listserv. I thought I would pass it on to you so that you could forward it to any NFB lists you deem appropriate. Angie * * * Immediate Action Necessary * * * Tell EEOC Not to Rush Through 11th Hour ADA Amendments Act Regulations AAPD staff have learned that the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has scheduled a Commission meeting for this Thursday, December 11 at 2 p.m. to discuss regulations interpreting the new ADA Amendments Act that was signed into law by President Bush on September 25. We have learned that one of the potential items for discussion is a new "Interim Final Rule" interpreting the new ADA Amendments Act that would take effect concurrent with the statute's effective date on January 1, 2009. If the Commission decides to issue an Interim Final Rule, that means that their regulations would take effect BEFORE anyone outside the commission has had an opportunity to review and comment on them. This is not acceptable. Typically, administrative agencies issue a notice of proposed rulemaking and give stakeholders an opportunity to comment on proposed regulations before they take effect. We believe that it is essential that the disability community and broader civil rights coalition that worked hard to get the ADA Amendments Act signed into law have an opportunity to see and comment on the new regulations before they take effect, and we are concerned that the Commission would try to rush through a final rule with no public comment at the end of an administration. Call today to let the EEOC Chairperson, Naomi Churchill Earp, and the Legal Counsel, Reed Russell, know that we want an opportunity to review the proposed regulations BEFORE they take effect. The ADA Amendments Act was the product of long negotiations and discussions with multiple stakeholders, and it is important that the regulations benefit from the same kind of broad-based input. The new law repudiates an overly narrow approach to the definition of disability that had been applied by the U.S. Supreme Court AND the EEOC, and we don't want to see the new regulations inadvertently create new problems for charging parties with disabilities and employers. Congress did not instruct EEOC to issue regulations before the new law's effective date, and there is no reason for the regulatory process to move forward without the typical notice and opportunity to comment. Our message to EEOC is simple: Don't issue a rule before we have an opportunity to be heard. Nothing about us without us. To reach the Chair's office, call 202 663-4002. To reach the Legal Counsel, call 202 663-4609. From gwunder at earthlink.net Wed Dec 10 09:08:34 2008 From: gwunder at earthlink.net (Gary Wunder) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:08:34 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Diane McGeorge E-mail Reminder-Washington Seminar Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: McCarthy, Jim Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 3:27 PM Subject: Diane McGeorge E-mail Reminder-Washington Seminar Fellow Federationists: The following message comes from Diane McGeorge who organizes much of the logistics of Washington Seminar. The time is growing closer than you might think. Our 2009 Washington Seminar will run from Sunday, February 8 to Wednesday, February 11. "Please get your reservations in as soon as possible." Our deadline for hotel reservations is January 5, 2009, which is only about one month off. Following is the information which I need to have to assure you of a room at the Holiday Inn. The address of the Holiday Inn Capitol is 550 C Street SW, Washington, DC 20024. 1. First of all I will need to have the names of the persons in the room. Please spell the first and last name of each person if you make the reservation by phone. You may do so by calling: (303) 778-1130, extension 219, or email (see below); and 2. I will need to have your arrival date and departure date. If people are sharing the room and their arrival and departure dates are different from yours, please be sure to indicate that; and 3. I will need to know if you wish a smoking or a non-smoking room. Also, if you have any special requirements, please advise. For example, if you require an accessible room, please include that information. If you wish to have a roll-away bed in the room, please let me know. If you request a roll-away bed, there will be an additional $15 charge per night; and 4. If you make your reservation by phone, and if you have an e-mail address, please leave that address so that we may send you confirmation that your reservation was received and processed. If you have no e-mail address, then please leave a telephone number so that I may call you back with a confirmation. You may make your reservations by e-mail by sending your request to Lisa Bonderson. Lisa's address is: lbonderson at cocenter.org. Either Lisa or I will send you a confirmation. The hotel rates are $154 per night for single, double, triple, or quad. There is an additional 14.5% hotel tax each night. When you check in you must be prepared to cover at least the first night of your stay with either a credit card or check; and then arrange to pay the balance by presenting a credit card or writing a check for the remainder of the cost. If state delegations will be paying for members with one check or one credit card, please advise Ed Cruz in the Holiday Inn Capitol accounting department prior to your arrival and he will make special arrangements for your delegation. It is also very advisable to supply to Mr. Cruz a list of the names of persons your delegation may plan to cover. It would also be advisable for you to supply me with the same list prior to arrival so that we will all be on the same page and this will lessen problems. Mr. Cruz has always been very helpful. Remember please, the deadline is January 5, 2009. There will be a number of special meetings during the seminar and you will want to watch the NFB Website for special announcements. The Great Gathering-In meeting will be held on Sunday, February 8, at 5 p.m. You certainly don't want to miss that. I hope this answers all of your questions. I look forward to seeing all of you in D.C. in February. Have a blessed holiday season. Diane McGeorge DM/wb From gwunder at earthlink.net Wed Dec 10 09:09:14 2008 From: gwunder at earthlink.net (Gary Wunder) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:09:14 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Test at Washington Seminar Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Braille Certification To: Louise Walch Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:42 PM Subject: Braille Test at Washington Seminar Dear NFB State Presidents, Please find attached a flyer announcing that testing for the National Certification in Literary Braille will be held on the Saturday prior to our Washington Seminar. Please pass this information along to your membership and others you think might be interested. Thanks in advance. -Louise Louise G. Walch NBPCB Coordinator 210-464-6144 Braille at nbpcb.org www.nbpcb.org ----- Braille Test at Washington Seminar Feb 7, 2009 THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) As you may be aware, the National Literary Braille Competency Test (NLBCT) of the National Library Service (NLS) has been transferred to the administration of the National Blindness Professional Certification Board (NBPCB). With the NLBCT as its cornerstone, the NBPCB has established the National Certification in Literary Braille (NCLB), which is a complete professional credential that requires recertification on a five year cycle. Individuals who were certified with the NLBCT prior to 2006 will need to retest through the NBPCB; however, the initial fee may be waived if the applicant can show proof of original NLBCT credential. The NCLB is currently the only nationally recognized certification in literary Braille. The examination has not been substantially changed from its earlier version once administered by the NLS, however a five year recertification requirement has been instituted in the interest of maintaining high standards. The exam is not aimed at transcribers. Rather, it is a valid test of a person's ability to competently read, write, and understand contracted, literary Braille, and is being targeted to all individuals who teach Braille professionally, and/or those seeking to be credentialed in this area. The next scheduled exam open for certification and recertification in 2009 is: Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009 Time: 8:00am-5:00pm (Doors close 8:30am) Location: Holiday Inn Capitol (Columbia II) 550 C Street SW Washington, DC 20024 Cost: $250 combined application/testing fee Deadline: Sunday, January 4, 2009 (or $275 late registration January 5-25) Subsequent NCLB examinations will be convened wherever an appropriate venue can be procured, and sufficient applicant numbers make it possible. Please contact the NBPCB for more details. To apply online go to: http://www.nbpcb.org/nclb/application/ or to download the NCLB Candidate Guidelines please visit: http://www.nbpcb.org/nclb/ For additional information please visit the NBPCB website at: www.nbpcb.org, call the NBPCB office at (318) 257-4554, or contact Louise Walch, NBPCB Coordinator, at: braille at nbpcb.org. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Flyer NCLB DC1.doc Type: application/msword Size: 31744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stephanie_enyart at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 22:52:06 2008 From: stephanie_enyart at yahoo.com (Stephanie Enyart) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:52:06 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Registration is now open for RebLaw! Message-ID: <000c01c95b19$eda9ad80$94f5e8a9@DF5R2QD1> PLEASE FORWARD widely and POST PUBLICLY in your school, institution, or community Registration is NOW OPEN for the 15th Annual Rebellious Lawyering Conference, February 20-22, 2009 Featuring Keynote Speakers: Van Jones Founding President of Green For All and Co-Founder of the Ella Baker Center For Human Rights and Stephen Bright President and Senior Counsel, Southern Center for Human Rights Hello Rebel! You are invited to the 15th Annual Rebellious Lawyering Conference, which will take place on the weekend of February 20-22, 2009. Last year, we brought hundreds of practitioners, law students, and community activists to New Haven to discuss progressive strategies for social change within and without the law, and we're excited to do it again! In addition to the two keynote speakers, RebLaw will feature numerous panels and workshops, along with opportunities to socialize and network with rebellious folks from all around. We have posted descriptions of the panels on our website and will continue to update with panel speakers and schedule information as it becomes available. For registration and other information, please visit our website: www.law.yale.edu/reblaw You can also sign up on the website to receive FREE HOUSING for the weekend in New Haven on the spare beds, couches and floors of local friendly, rebellious law students. If you are interested in helping to further publicize this conference among a community of practitioners, law students, community activists or other interested people that you know, PLEASE DO! And also get in touch with rebellious.law.publicity at gmail.com Financial note: If you are affiliated with a law school or other institution, it may provide funding for the registration and travel costs to conferences - inquire with your administration. From davidandloristayer at verizon.net Thu Dec 11 09:15:30 2008 From: davidandloristayer at verizon.net (David R. Stayer) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 03:15:30 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] The homeless blind. Message-ID: I have been asked to circulate the following: Please reply to the e-mail address below as he is not subscribed to all the lists to which this is being posted. David Andrews From: "David R. Stayer" Shalom. I am chair of the Social Services Committee on our newly formed Commission for the Blind and Visually Handicapped Executive Board in New York. Our committee is trying to ascertain whether states track the homeless blind and visually impaired. Anyy data you could furnish would help us in recommending to the Commission for the Blind. I cannot find any data for New York and wonder how other states handle this population. Each day is a precious gift. David R. Stayer, LCSW davidandloristayer at verizon.net No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: 12/8/2008 9:38 AM From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 16:21:36 2008 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:21:36 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] The homeless blind. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Census doesn't even track the blind. It is terrible. I think they do not want to be caught not caring for the blind so they ignore the figures. The AFB, the NFB and the AAPD all have different figures on the number of the blind in this country, homeless or not. If they did track these numbers every state would be in violation of the Civil Rights Act and so the best way to avoid any trouble is to not count the blind, put them in the class of being disabled and forget about it. James Pepper On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 3:15 AM, David R. Stayer < davidandloristayer at verizon.net> wrote: > I have been asked to circulate the following: > Please reply to the e-mail address below as he is not subscribed to all the > lists to which this is being posted. > > David Andrews > > > From: "David R. Stayer" > Shalom. I am chair of the Social Services Committee on our newly formed > Commission for the Blind and Visually Handicapped Executive Board in New > York. Our committee is trying to ascertain whether states track the > homeless blind and visually impaired. Anyy data you could furnish would > help us in recommending to the Commission for the Blind. I cannot find any > data for New York and wonder how other states handle this population. > Each day is a precious gift. > David R. Stayer, LCSW > davidandloristayer at verizon.net > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: 12/8/2008 > 9:38 AM > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From mikefry79 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 17:24:59 2008 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:24:59 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] The homeless blind. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c58e54a0812110924t252522f0i4a81e060176d3134@mail.gmail.com> I have no information to directly answer this question, however, I'm compelled to give you my thoughts on the subject because I think it will help you. It's doubtful that there are appreciable amounts of totally blind homeless people, though there are likely a few, since sustaining a homeless life style and being blind is nearly unimaginable because blindness is such a debilitating disability that utilizing the resources of society are necessary for survival. If there are significant numbers of blind homeless people, I'd be surprised and the U.S. would not be the country I thought it was, my observations suggest no correlation between disfiguring or catastrophic disability and homelessness in wealthier countries. Where as in poor countries, like China, nearly all the homeless and beggars were disfigured, maimed, or suffered a seriously noticeable disability. The inhumanity of having a significant population of blind homeless people would be shockingly surreal. On the other hand it would not surprise me in the least if a significant number of homeless people are visually impaired, falling on that spectrum of impairment ranging from 20/300 acuity to 20/60 visual acuity. This population is underserved by society. They are unable to obtain any cushy government jobs such as for example firefighter, police officer, paramedic, or severe in any branch of the armed forces. Moreover, they suffer academically because their disability is not properly accommodated. Further, it is a symptom of our sick uneducated society that these are the contemporary unfortunate souls. Rather, than being poor peasants united by circumstance, poor government, drought, weak physical countenance as with other unfortunates in history this lot has nothing in common except they lost the genetic lottery. They are weaker than the weakest functioning members of society. Cultural values have changed a lot in the last fifty years, and now it seems that people with this type of disability find themselves on the low end of the societal totem pole. I doubt you'll find any usefully statistics on the subject. Regardless, I sincerely hope that you can help them. Mike On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 1:15 AM, David R. Stayer wrote: > I have been asked to circulate the following: > Please reply to the e-mail address below as he is not subscribed to all the > lists to which this is being posted. > > David Andrews > > > From: "David R. Stayer" > Shalom. I am chair of the Social Services Committee on our newly formed > Commission for the Blind and Visually Handicapped Executive Board in New > York. Our committee is trying to ascertain whether states track the > homeless blind and visually impaired. Anyy data you could furnish would > help us in recommending to the Commission for the Blind. I cannot find any > data for New York and wonder how other states handle this population. > Each day is a precious gift. > David R. Stayer, LCSW > davidandloristayer at verizon.net > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: 12/8/2008 > 9:38 AM > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From JMcCarthy at nfb.org Thu Dec 11 20:21:14 2008 From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org (McCarthy, Jim) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:21:14 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <000325574ceaa78bc3045da06e10@google.com> Message-ID: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA75401468FFD@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Maybe someone is closer to the case than am I, but my understanding was that the ACB and others are concerned with paper notices an dnot with web access. One can imagine a day when we can access social security notices from our personal accounts on the web but so far the agency has not moved to that sort of aproach. Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:26 PM To: Dennis Clark; blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question Dennis: The ACB lawsuit is against Social Security and they are the ones doing the "hand holding" as they are concentrating on making everything turned into text but unformatted text or text made from PDF files is usually a mess, especially if it was created using a mac in InDesign and translated into a PDF file on a Windows based computer and then turned into a text file. You see this stuff all the time, and it looks like people just do not care but in reality they did not consider the transition from one format to the other. The NFB lawsuit is great, it finally breaches the gap from the public to the private sector. I tried to do this with the National Voter Registration form by showing that if the states were willing to deny the right to vote to people because they made their voter registration forms incaccessible then we could use the laws of the Voting Rights Act to force Integration under the Civil rights Act of 1964 which enables the 14th Amendment Section 2 to be imposed upon the states if they do not comply, and this would to everyone in the state, not just the public sector. Social Security was required to be accessible to the blind 35 years ago under the Rehabiliation Act of 1973. There is no excuse. They were required to do this in 1998 under Section 508 of the Rehabiliation Act and here is the law. http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3 What we need here is a review of accessibility law and make sure everyone understands that the federal government mandated accessibility years ago and nobody has complied. And they have not complied because IT people refuse to do it. It is that simple. Managers have been told that it is too expensive or that it is impossible. That's Bull. It can be done and it can be done when people make the documents, and the only thing preventing accessibility is the knowledge of how to do it and the pride of IT officials who do not know how to do it and refuse to budge and learn. The Target lawsuit is so out of whack I cannot beleive it. The problem with Target is that they probably are using an old database and so they would have to get a new one. Chances are they have not updated their software. That could be rather expensive but they will have to do it anyway, just for security issues alone. Target has always had a corporate mentality of being able to do anything they want and so when the federal government mandates things to them, they tend to consider it a nuisance and so they are not handling this well at all. You would think that given they just lost the case they would have fixed their site by now, but they haven't. And what is amazing is that it is so easy to do this. Accessibility is easy to those who know how to do it. This is what accessibility gets down to is using new software and having the right people who know how to write code properly create the websites with the idea that accessibility is the prime issue. Many people in IT think that if you make a website standards compliant that that makes it accessible, but you have to put accessibility features into the site. Of coure Targets site is not web standards compliant. No, Target needs to fire its IT People and hire people who will keep them out of lawsuits. The costs of the lawyers and the settlement could have been put into updating their database and hiring people to fix their site. Also if they fix their site they would be able to use it on Cell phones and Iphones. The transition to Web 2 is almost the same requirements to start a website to accessibility, so Target is still in the dark ages of web design. This is such a waste. The reality of Accessibility is that it shows that IT people have no clue what they are doing and they are getting caught. They are getting caught being unprofessional, they are getting caught writing code that is written badly, they are illiterate when it comes to writing computer code. They are leaving their corporations out to dry. James Pepper On Dec 9, 2008 9:25am, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hi John, > > > Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and > I am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully accessible to the blind. The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. > > > > > > Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. > > > > > > Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution to my client's problem. > > > > > > As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a > strong constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. > > > > > > I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Dennis > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of > activity regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering readable by screen readers. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, > > > I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in > an > > > accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all > hold > > > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. > > > Take care, > > > John > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > that > > > materials were available in Braille and people could receive communications > > > from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm > > > not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > > in > > > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean > > > > > > > > > > that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. > > > And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' > > > money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they > > > provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't > > > expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time > > > > > > > > > > soon. > > > Kathy Hagen > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > > > impression > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because > > > she > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > > > everyone > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of > > > the > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > Cordially, > > > John > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc glob > > > al.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox .net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc global.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 0sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail .com > > > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf b.org From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Dec 11 20:33:28 2008 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:33:28 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA75401468FFD@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> References: <000325574ceaa78bc3045da06e10@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA75401468FFD@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: They have moved to where alot of things can be done for social security payments online and changing of info, etc. just not for SSI for some reason. > Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:21:14 -0500 > From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > Maybe someone is closer to the case than am I, but my understanding was > that the ACB and others are concerned with paper notices an dnot with > web access. One can imagine a day when we can access social security > notices from our personal accounts on the web but so far the agency has > not moved to that sort of aproach. > Jim McCarthy > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:26 PM > To: Dennis Clark; blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > Dennis: > > The ACB lawsuit is against Social Security and they are the ones doing > the "hand holding" as they are concentrating on making everything turned > into text but unformatted text or text made from PDF files is usually a > mess, especially if it was created using a mac in InDesign and > translated into a PDF file on a Windows based computer and then turned > into a text file. You see this stuff all the time, and it looks like > people just do not care but in reality they did not consider the > transition from one format to the other. > > The NFB lawsuit is great, it finally breaches the gap from the public to > the private sector. I tried to do this with the National Voter > Registration form by showing that if the states were willing to deny the > right to vote to people because they made their voter registration forms > incaccessible then we could use the laws of the Voting Rights Act to > force Integration under the Civil rights Act of 1964 which enables the > 14th Amendment Section > 2 to be imposed upon the states if they do not comply, and this would to > everyone in the state, not just the public sector. > > Social Security was required to be accessible to the blind 35 years ago > under the Rehabiliation Act of 1973. There is no excuse. They were > required to do this in 1998 under Section 508 of the Rehabiliation Act > and here is the law. > http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3 > What we need here is a review of accessibility law and make sure > everyone understands that the federal government mandated accessibility > years ago and nobody has complied. > > And they have not complied because IT people refuse to do it. It is that > simple. Managers have been told that it is too expensive or that it is > impossible. That's Bull. It can be done and it can be done when people > make the documents, and the only thing preventing accessibility is the > knowledge of how to do it and the pride of IT officials who do not know > how to do it and refuse to budge and learn. > > The Target lawsuit is so out of whack I cannot beleive it. The problem > with Target is that they probably are using an old database and so they > would have to get a new one. Chances are they have not updated their > software. > That could be rather expensive but they will have to do it anyway, just > for security issues alone. Target has always had a corporate mentality > of being able to do anything they want and so when the federal > government mandates things to them, they tend to consider it a nuisance > and so they are not handling this well at all. You would think that > given they just lost the case they would have fixed their site by now, > but they haven't. And what is amazing is that it is so easy to do this. > Accessibility is easy to those who know how to do it. This is what > accessibility gets down to is using new software and having the right > people who know how to write code properly create the websites with the > idea that accessibility is the prime issue. > > Many people in IT think that if you make a website standards compliant > that that makes it accessible, but you have to put accessibility > features into the site. > Of coure Targets site is not web standards compliant. No, Target needs > to fire its IT People and hire people who will keep them out of > lawsuits. The costs of the lawyers and the settlement could have been > put into updating their database and hiring people to fix their site. > Also if they fix their site they would be able to use it on Cell phones > and Iphones. The transition to Web 2 is almost the same requirements to > start a website to accessibility, so Target is still in the dark ages of > web design. > > This is such a waste. > > The reality of Accessibility is that it shows that IT people have no > clue what they are doing and they are getting caught. They are getting > caught being unprofessional, they are getting caught writing code that > is written badly, they are illiterate when it comes to writing computer > code. > > They are leaving their corporations out to dry. > > James Pepper > On Dec 9, 2008 9:25am, Dennis Clark wrote: > > Hi John, > > > > > > Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and > > > I > am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in > practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you > are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually > launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability > Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did > this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no > problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully > accessible to the blind. > The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there > are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the > free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates > that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible > website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything > is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility > alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. > > > > > > > > > > > > Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible > communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because > unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many > shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are > forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind > recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications > being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or > unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I > represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this > procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution > to my client's problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a > > strong > constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is > the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. > It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I > am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they > result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. > > > > > > > > > > > > I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > > > > Dennis > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> > > > > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of > > activity > regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as > captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering > readable by screen readers. > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, > > > > > > I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in > > an > > > > > > accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all > > hold > > > > > > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > > > On > > > > > > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM > > > > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > > that > > > > > > materials were available in Braille and people could receive > communications > > > > > > from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. > I'm > > > > > > not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was > discontinued. > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > > > > > in > > > > > > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not > mean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials > yet. > > > > > > And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' > > > > > > money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they > > > > > > provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend > shouldn't > > > > > > expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any > time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > soon. > > > > > > Kathy Hagen > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > > > > > > impression > > > > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights > because > > > > > > she > > > > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > > > > > > everyone > > > > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in > a > > > > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires > an > > > > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a > visual > > > > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of > > > > > > the > > > > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c > om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > glob > > > > > > al.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox > .net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > global.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > 0sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail > .com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf > b.org > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 From mikefry79 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 20:57:52 2008 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:57:52 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] The homeless blind. In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0812110924t252522f0i4a81e060176d3134@mail.gmail.com> References: <8c58e54a0812110924t252522f0i4a81e060176d3134@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0812111257x7c75a7o2496910e79507a00@mail.gmail.com> I'd like to retract the last half of my previous post and apologize to anyone that I may have offended. This morning I must've been in a peculiar mood, some of my remarks were insensitive and probably just incorrect. On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 9:24 AM, Michael Fry wrote: > I have no information to directly answer this question, however, I'm > compelled to give you my thoughts on the subject because I think it > will help you. > > It's doubtful that there are appreciable amounts of totally blind > homeless people, though there are likely a few, since sustaining a > homeless life style and being blind is nearly unimaginable because > blindness is such a debilitating disability that utilizing the > resources of society are necessary for survival. If there are > significant numbers of blind homeless people, I'd be surprised and the > U.S. would not be the country I thought it was, my observations > suggest no correlation between disfiguring or catastrophic disability > and homelessness in wealthier countries. Where as in poor countries, > like China, nearly all the homeless and beggars were disfigured, > maimed, or suffered a seriously noticeable disability. The inhumanity > of having a significant population of blind homeless people would be > shockingly surreal. > > On the other hand it would not surprise me in the least if a > significant number of homeless people are visually impaired, falling > on that spectrum of impairment ranging from 20/300 acuity to 20/60 > visual acuity. This population is underserved by society. They are > unable to obtain any cushy government jobs such as for example > firefighter, police officer, paramedic, or severe in any branch of the > armed forces. Moreover, they suffer academically because their > disability is not properly accommodated. Further, it is a symptom of > our sick uneducated society that these are the contemporary > unfortunate souls. Rather, than being poor peasants united by > circumstance, poor government, drought, weak physical countenance as > with other unfortunates in history this lot has nothing in common > except they lost the genetic lottery. They are weaker than the > weakest functioning members of society. Cultural values have changed > a lot in the last fifty years, and now it seems that people with this > type of disability find themselves on the low end of the societal > totem pole. > > I doubt you'll find any usefully statistics on the subject. > Regardless, I sincerely hope that you can help them. > > Mike > > > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 1:15 AM, David R. Stayer > wrote: >> I have been asked to circulate the following: >> Please reply to the e-mail address below as he is not subscribed to all the >> lists to which this is being posted. >> >> David Andrews >> >> >> From: "David R. Stayer" >> Shalom. I am chair of the Social Services Committee on our newly formed >> Commission for the Blind and Visually Handicapped Executive Board in New >> York. Our committee is trying to ascertain whether states track the >> homeless blind and visually impaired. Anyy data you could furnish would >> help us in recommending to the Commission for the Blind. I cannot find any >> data for New York and wonder how other states handle this population. >> Each day is a precious gift. >> David R. Stayer, LCSW >> davidandloristayer at verizon.net >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: 12/8/2008 >> 9:38 AM >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >> > From rjaquiss at earthlink.net Thu Dec 11 21:32:08 2008 From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:32:08 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] The homeless blind. References: Message-ID: Hello: Since the next census is in 2010, perhaps we would have a chance to get Congress to require the Census Bureau to count the blind. It occurs to me that other groups such as the deaf would find this information of use. Regards, Robert Jaquiss ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] The homeless blind. > The Census doesn't even track the blind. It is terrible. I think they do > not want to be caught not caring for the blind so they ignore the figures. > The AFB, the NFB and the AAPD all have different figures on the number of > the blind in this country, homeless or not. If they did track these > numbers > every state would be in violation of the Civil Rights Act and so the best > way to avoid any trouble is to not count the blind, put them in the class > of > being disabled and forget about it. > > James Pepper > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 3:15 AM, David R. Stayer < > davidandloristayer at verizon.net> wrote: > >> I have been asked to circulate the following: >> Please reply to the e-mail address below as he is not subscribed to all >> the >> lists to which this is being posted. >> >> David Andrews >> >> >> From: "David R. Stayer" >> Shalom. I am chair of the Social Services Committee on our newly formed >> Commission for the Blind and Visually Handicapped Executive Board in New >> York. Our committee is trying to ascertain whether states track the >> homeless blind and visually impaired. Anyy data you could furnish would >> help us in recommending to the Commission for the Blind. I cannot find >> any >> data for New York and wonder how other states handle this population. >> Each day is a precious gift. >> David R. Stayer, LCSW >> davidandloristayer at verizon.net >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: >> 12/8/2008 >> 9:38 AM >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 22:09:04 2008 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:09:04 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <000325574ceaa78bc3045da06e10@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA75401468FFD@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: The problem is in the forms and their inability to understand web accessibility when it comes to dynamic web pages and screen readers. They can place all sorts of textual inforamtion on the net but once you get into interactive forms design, then things go haywire because different screen readers and different versions of screen readers react differently from each other. It is a nightmare.. On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 2:33 PM, tim and vickie shaw < timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote: > > They have moved to where alot of things can be done for social security > payments online and changing of info, etc. just not for SSI for some reason. > > > Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:21:14 -0500 > > From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > Maybe someone is closer to the case than am I, but my understanding was > > that the ACB and others are concerned with paper notices an dnot with > > web access. One can imagine a day when we can access social security > > notices from our personal accounts on the web but so far the agency has > > not moved to that sort of aproach. > > Jim McCarthy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > > On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:26 PM > > To: Dennis Clark; blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > Dennis: > > > > The ACB lawsuit is against Social Security and they are the ones doing > > the "hand holding" as they are concentrating on making everything turned > > into text but unformatted text or text made from PDF files is usually a > > mess, especially if it was created using a mac in InDesign and > > translated into a PDF file on a Windows based computer and then turned > > into a text file. You see this stuff all the time, and it looks like > > people just do not care but in reality they did not consider the > > transition from one format to the other. > > > > The NFB lawsuit is great, it finally breaches the gap from the public to > > the private sector. I tried to do this with the National Voter > > Registration form by showing that if the states were willing to deny the > > right to vote to people because they made their voter registration forms > > incaccessible then we could use the laws of the Voting Rights Act to > > force Integration under the Civil rights Act of 1964 which enables the > > 14th Amendment Section > > 2 to be imposed upon the states if they do not comply, and this would to > > everyone in the state, not just the public sector. > > > > Social Security was required to be accessible to the blind 35 years ago > > under the Rehabiliation Act of 1973. There is no excuse. They were > > required to do this in 1998 under Section 508 of the Rehabiliation Act > > and here is the law. > > http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3 > > What we need here is a review of accessibility law and make sure > > everyone understands that the federal government mandated accessibility > > years ago and nobody has complied. > > > > And they have not complied because IT people refuse to do it. It is that > > simple. Managers have been told that it is too expensive or that it is > > impossible. That's Bull. It can be done and it can be done when people > > make the documents, and the only thing preventing accessibility is the > > knowledge of how to do it and the pride of IT officials who do not know > > how to do it and refuse to budge and learn. > > > > The Target lawsuit is so out of whack I cannot beleive it. The problem > > with Target is that they probably are using an old database and so they > > would have to get a new one. Chances are they have not updated their > > software. > > That could be rather expensive but they will have to do it anyway, just > > for security issues alone. Target has always had a corporate mentality > > of being able to do anything they want and so when the federal > > government mandates things to them, they tend to consider it a nuisance > > and so they are not handling this well at all. You would think that > > given they just lost the case they would have fixed their site by now, > > but they haven't. And what is amazing is that it is so easy to do this. > > Accessibility is easy to those who know how to do it. This is what > > accessibility gets down to is using new software and having the right > > people who know how to write code properly create the websites with the > > idea that accessibility is the prime issue. > > > > Many people in IT think that if you make a website standards compliant > > that that makes it accessible, but you have to put accessibility > > features into the site. > > Of coure Targets site is not web standards compliant. No, Target needs > > to fire its IT People and hire people who will keep them out of > > lawsuits. The costs of the lawyers and the settlement could have been > > put into updating their database and hiring people to fix their site. > > Also if they fix their site they would be able to use it on Cell phones > > and Iphones. The transition to Web 2 is almost the same requirements to > > start a website to accessibility, so Target is still in the dark ages of > > web design. > > > > This is such a waste. > > > > The reality of Accessibility is that it shows that IT people have no > > clue what they are doing and they are getting caught. They are getting > > caught being unprofessional, they are getting caught writing code that > > is written badly, they are illiterate when it comes to writing computer > > code. > > > > They are leaving their corporations out to dry. > > > > James Pepper > > On Dec 9, 2008 9:25am, Dennis Clark wrote: > > > Hi John, > > > > > > > > > Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and > > > > > I > > am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in > > practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold > > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you > > are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually > > launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability > > Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did > > this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no > > problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully > > accessible to the blind. > > The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there > > are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the > > free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates > > that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible > > website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything > > is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility > > alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible > > communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because > > unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many > > shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are > > forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind > > recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications > > being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or > > unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I > > represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this > > procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution > > to my client's problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a > > > strong > > constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is > > the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. > > It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I > > am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they > > result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dennis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> > > > > > > > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of > > > activity > > regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as > > captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering > > readable by screen readers. > > > > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > > > > > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, > > > > > > > > > I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in > > > an > > > > > > > > > accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all > > > hold > > > > > > > > > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > > > > > On > > > > > > > > > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM > > > > > > > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > > > that > > > > > > > > > materials were available in Braille and people could receive > > communications > > > > > > > > > from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. > > I'm > > > > > > > > > not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was > > discontinued. > > > > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > > > > > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not > > mean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials > > yet. > > > > > > > > > And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' > > > > > > > > > money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they > > > > > > > > > provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend > > shouldn't > > > > > > > > > expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any > > time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > soon. > > > > > > > > > Kathy Hagen > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > > > > > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > > > > > > > > > impression > > > > > > > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights > > because > > > > > > > > > she > > > > > > > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > > > > > > > > > everyone > > > > > > > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in > > a > > > > > > > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires > > an > > > > > > > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a > > visual > > > > > > > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c > > om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > > glob > > > > > > > > > al.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox > > .net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > > global.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > > 0sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf > > b.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. > > http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From khagen12 at q.com Fri Dec 12 00:52:32 2008 From: khagen12 at q.com (Kathleen Hagen) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:52:32 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question References: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA75401468FFD@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: I think that the people who filed the suit are interested in getting the notices in any way that is accessible. At this point the only concessions they make for getting material to a blind person is that it can be sent by registered mail, or, if you've gotten the notice, you can call and have someone read it to you. This is outrageous! Even if, as most of us do, we get our mail read, or scan it ourselves etc., as soon as it comes, it still goes beyond understanding that in this day and age SSA doesn't have the technology to send notices in alternative format. SSA is moving toward electronic filing of records in a case. Given how many problems I've had with electronic case management in federal court cases, I'm not looking forward to it. The only thing that SSA seems to provide is public information, including what we refer to as the Redbook, updated annually. And, just to put the frosting on the cake, so to speak, EEOC has just been successful in getting a class action certified against SSA involving (I can't remember what they called it) but persons with visible disabilities-deaf, blind, people with partial or complete paralysis, etc. And why was it necessary to certify a class of persons with disabilities? Well, you see, while SSA does hire people with disabilities, they don't promote them into mid or upper management. The class representative has worked for SSA for almost 30 years. He is deaf and has been overlooked for promotion dozens of times. Kathy Hagen Kathy Hagen ----- Original Message ----- From: "McCarthy, Jim" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > Maybe someone is closer to the case than am I, but my understanding was > that the ACB and others are concerned with paper notices an dnot with > web access. One can imagine a day when we can access social security > notices from our personal accounts on the web but so far the agency has > not moved to that sort of aproach. > Jim McCarthy > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:26 PM > To: Dennis Clark; blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > Dennis: > > The ACB lawsuit is against Social Security and they are the ones doing > the "hand holding" as they are concentrating on making everything turned > into text but unformatted text or text made from PDF files is usually a > mess, especially if it was created using a mac in InDesign and > translated into a PDF file on a Windows based computer and then turned > into a text file. You see this stuff all the time, and it looks like > people just do not care but in reality they did not consider the > transition from one format to the other. > > The NFB lawsuit is great, it finally breaches the gap from the public to > the private sector. I tried to do this with the National Voter > Registration form by showing that if the states were willing to deny the > right to vote to people because they made their voter registration forms > incaccessible then we could use the laws of the Voting Rights Act to > force Integration under the Civil rights Act of 1964 which enables the > 14th Amendment Section > 2 to be imposed upon the states if they do not comply, and this would to > everyone in the state, not just the public sector. > > Social Security was required to be accessible to the blind 35 years ago > under the Rehabiliation Act of 1973. There is no excuse. They were > required to do this in 1998 under Section 508 of the Rehabiliation Act > and here is the law. > http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3 > What we need here is a review of accessibility law and make sure > everyone understands that the federal government mandated accessibility > years ago and nobody has complied. > > And they have not complied because IT people refuse to do it. It is that > simple. Managers have been told that it is too expensive or that it is > impossible. That's Bull. It can be done and it can be done when people > make the documents, and the only thing preventing accessibility is the > knowledge of how to do it and the pride of IT officials who do not know > how to do it and refuse to budge and learn. > > The Target lawsuit is so out of whack I cannot beleive it. The problem > with Target is that they probably are using an old database and so they > would have to get a new one. Chances are they have not updated their > software. > That could be rather expensive but they will have to do it anyway, just > for security issues alone. Target has always had a corporate mentality > of being able to do anything they want and so when the federal > government mandates things to them, they tend to consider it a nuisance > and so they are not handling this well at all. You would think that > given they just lost the case they would have fixed their site by now, > but they haven't. And what is amazing is that it is so easy to do this. > Accessibility is easy to those who know how to do it. This is what > accessibility gets down to is using new software and having the right > people who know how to write code properly create the websites with the > idea that accessibility is the prime issue. > > Many people in IT think that if you make a website standards compliant > that that makes it accessible, but you have to put accessibility > features into the site. > Of coure Targets site is not web standards compliant. No, Target needs > to fire its IT People and hire people who will keep them out of > lawsuits. The costs of the lawyers and the settlement could have been > put into updating their database and hiring people to fix their site. > Also if they fix their site they would be able to use it on Cell phones > and Iphones. The transition to Web 2 is almost the same requirements to > start a website to accessibility, so Target is still in the dark ages of > web design. > > This is such a waste. > > The reality of Accessibility is that it shows that IT people have no > clue what they are doing and they are getting caught. They are getting > caught being unprofessional, they are getting caught writing code that > is written badly, they are illiterate when it comes to writing computer > code. > > They are leaving their corporations out to dry. > > James Pepper > On Dec 9, 2008 9:25am, Dennis Clark wrote: >> Hi John, >> >> >> Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and > >> I > am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in > practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you > are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually > launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability > Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did > this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no > problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully > accessible to the blind. > The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there > are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the > free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates > that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible > website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything > is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility > alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. >> >> >> >> >> >> Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible > communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because > unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many > shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are > forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. >> >> >> >> >> >> Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind > recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications > being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or > unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I > represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this > procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution > to my client's problem. >> >> >> >> >> >> As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a >> strong > constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is > the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. > It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I > am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they > result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. >> >> >> >> >> >> I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. >> >> >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> >> >> >> >> Dennis >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> >> >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of >> activity > regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as > captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering > readable by screen readers. >> >> >> Chuck >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> >> >> >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Chuck, >> >> >> I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in >> an >> >> >> accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all >> hold >> >> >> blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. >> >> >> Take care, >> >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> >> >> >> >> Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> >> >> >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > >> On >> >> >> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net >> >> >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM >> >> >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say >> that >> >> >> materials were available in Braille and people could receive > communications >> >> >> from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. > I'm >> >> >> not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was > discontinued. >> >> >> Chuck >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> >> >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients >> >> >> in >> >> >> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not > mean >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials > yet. >> >> >> And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' >> >> >> money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they >> >> >> provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend > shouldn't >> >> >> expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any > time >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> soon. >> >> >> Kathy Hagen >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> >> >> >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >> >> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hello All, >> >> >> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >> >> >> impression >> >> >> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights > because >> >> >> she >> >> >> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >> >> >> everyone >> >> >> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in > a >> >> >> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires > an >> >> >> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a > visual >> >> >> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >> >> >> the >> >> >> CFR that contains such a requirement? >> >> >> Cordially, >> >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> >> >> >> >> Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> >> >> >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c > om >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > glob >> >> >> al.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox > .net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > global.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > 0sbcglobal.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail > .com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf > b.org > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com > From mhanson at winternet.com Fri Dec 12 14:24:26 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:24:26 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike Message-ID: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my hike. Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more information on my plans. Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! Sincerely, Mike Hanson From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 12 20:34:21 2008 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:34:21 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: <4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook> hi, this sounds cool but... did you get the gps unit for free?? are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? is this funded by the nfb as well?? Bryan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael O. Hanson" To: Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: > > My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of > this list for years and learned a great deal from it. > > I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in > March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual > impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve our > independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. Adaptive > technology will be a major component of my hike. > > Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of > Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more information > on my plans. > > Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle on > my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the dependence > of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons with visual > impairments. Make me take a hike! > > Sincerely, > > > Mike Hanson > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 12 21:30:19 2008 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:30:19 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a> <4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook> Message-ID: <00d601c95ca0$d67feb00$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> Which GPS is it? I've thought about trying it or something like it with my Trekker, but don't have the financial resources to cover myself. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > hi, > > this sounds cool but... > did you get the gps unit for free?? > are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? > is this funded by the nfb as well?? > Bryan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >> >> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of >> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >> >> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve our >> independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. Adaptive >> technology will be a major component of my hike. >> >> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of >> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more information >> on my plans. >> >> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle on >> my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the dependence >> of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons with visual >> impairments. Make me take a hike! >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net From clucas at ccdconline.org Fri Dec 12 22:39:24 2008 From: clucas at ccdconline.org (Carrie Ann Lucas) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:39:24 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Please forward -- Free training in NOLA Jan 8-9 for attorneys who represent victims of domestic violence Message-ID: <7F0F16B748F94BF1AE966C0C87183DA5@colorado0f48f8> This is an ABA training offered to attorneys in your organization or community who serve victims of domestic violence whom you think would benefit from this Institute. Keep in mind that registration is NOT limited to grantees from the Office on Violence Against Women and registration is free so the only costs are travel to New Orleans and hotel. Please forward the announcement below to anyone whom you think should attend. Registration closes next Friday, December 19, 2008. This week we opened registration for our January institute on the civil representation of victims who are Deaf, hard of hearing, and/or with disabilities. As you know, the Institute is scheduled January 8-9, 2008 in New Orleans, LA. Please forward this message and flyer to any attorneys who might be interested in attending. Registration information is at the institute website: http://www.abanet.org/domviol/institute/disabilities.html National Institute on Civil Representation of Victims of Domestic Violence, Dating Violence and Sexual Assault Who are Deaf, Hard of Hearing and/or With Disabilities January 8-9, New Orleans, LA The American Bar Association Commission on Domestic Violence, in collaboration with the United States Department of Justice, Office on Violence Against Women (OVW), is pleased to present a two-day training, National Institute on Civil Representation of Victims of Domestic Violence, Dating Violence and Sexual Assault Who are Deaf, Hard of Hearing and/or With Disabilities, on January 8-9, 2008 in New Orleans, Louisiana. This Institute is designed for attorneys who currently represent victims of domestic violence in contested custody and civil protection order cases. The Institute is interactive and all attendees are expected to participate. Priority registration will be given to attorneys currently funded by the Legal Assistance for Victims (LAV) grant program of the United States Department of Justice, Office on Violence Against Women. No more than three attorneys from the same LAV-funded program may attend the Institute without prior permission approval from the program's grant manager. This Institute is offered at no cost to OVW-funded attorneys, and grantees may use OVW funds to cover travel costs to attend. Additional participant slots will be made available to attorneys currently funded by other OVW-funded grant programs that represent victims of domestic violence, sexual assault, and stalking. Non-LAV grantees must obtain prior approval from their grant managers. Remaining spots will be made available to non-OVW funded attorneys currently serving victims and survivors. Registration will close at fifty participants. Online registration is required to attend the Institute. You will receive information regarding how to book your hotel reservations once your registration is confirmed. To register, please visit our website at: http://www.abanet.org/domviol/institute/disabilities.html. Please note that registration will open on December 1, 2008 and close December 14, 2008. If you have any general questions about this Institute or registration, please visit the Commission website. If you need assistance, please contact Guilherme Roschke at roschkeg at staff.abnet.org or (202) 662-1021. Specific questions about the parameters and terms of your OVW grant should be addressed to your OVW program manager. This project is supported by Grant No. 2004-WT-AX-K078 awarded by the United States Department of Justice, Office on Violence Against Women. The opinions, findings, and recommendations expressed in this document are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of the United States Department of Justice, Office on Violence Against Women. Guilherme Roschke Staff Attorney American Bar Association Commission On Domestic Violence 740 15th St NW Washington, DC 20005 202-662-1021 Phone 202-662-1594 Fax roschkeg at staff.abanet.org http://www.abanet.org/domviol Carrie Ann Lucas Director Center for Rights of Parents with Disabilities Colorado Cross-Disability Coalition 655 Broadway, Suite 775 Denver, CO 80203 303.839.1775 (main and messages) 303.839.0015 (direct and TTY) 303.839.1782 (facsimile) 800.817.1435 (main and messages) 877.267.1621 (direct and TTY) www.ccdconline.org From mhanson at winternet.com Sat Dec 13 10:46:26 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:46:26 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a> <4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook> Message-ID: <428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a> Dear Mr. Schulz: Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone is a free open source software program available to anybody with the appropriate cell phone. I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through Minnesota State Services for the Blind. I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. Sincerely, Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > hi, > > this sounds cool but... > did you get the gps unit for free?? > are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? > is this funded by the nfb as well?? > Bryan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >> >> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of >> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >> >> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve our >> independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. Adaptive >> technology will be a major component of my hike. >> >> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of >> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more information >> on my plans. >> >> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle on >> my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the dependence >> of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons with visual >> impairments. Make me take a hike! >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From mhanson at winternet.com Sat Dec 13 10:49:03 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:49:03 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook> <00d601c95ca0$d67feb00$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> Message-ID: <0F3A3BAB68524A969CCF9E8F2BB5C9B0@hp048378e4c43a> I will use two programs. I will use Loadstone GPs as my primary program. This is a free, open source program usable by anybody with the appropriate cell phone. Please visit www.loadstone-GPS program for more information about this program. The second program I will use is Wayfinder Access. Please visit www.wayfinder.com/access for more information about this program. Please email me or visit www.blindhiker.com if you have any questions. Sincerely, Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > Which GPS is it? I've thought about trying it or something like it with > my Trekker, but don't have the financial resources to cover myself. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Schulz" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:34 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> hi, >> >> this sounds cool but... >> did you get the gps unit for free?? >> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >> Bryan >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>> >>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of >>> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>> >>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >>> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >>> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve our >>> independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. Adaptive >>> technology will be a major component of my hike. >>> >>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of >>> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>> information on my plans. >>> >>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle on >>> my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the dependence >>> of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons with >>> visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Sat Dec 13 16:27:28 2008 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:27:28 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook> <428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: <16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook> hi, sorry for the misjudgement. it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and safe hiking. if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. Bryan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael O. Hanson" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > Dear Mr. Schulz: > > Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS program > myself. I use Wayfinder Access. > > I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone is > a free open source software program available to anybody with the > appropriate cell phone. > > I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through > Minnesota State Services for the Blind. > > I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a book > deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with other > sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or visit > www.blindhiker.com for more information. > > Sincerely, > > > Mike Hanson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Schulz" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> hi, >> >> this sounds cool but... >> did you get the gps unit for free?? >> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >> Bryan >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>> >>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of >>> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>> >>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >>> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >>> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve our >>> independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. Adaptive >>> technology will be a major component of my hike. >>> >>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of >>> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>> information on my plans. >>> >>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle on >>> my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the dependence >>> of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons with >>> visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From stiehm.law at juno.com Sat Dec 13 22:37:01 2008 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 17:37:01 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike Message-ID: <20081213.173701.424.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Dear Mr. Hanson, Is the Loadstone GPS software on you Nokia N82? if so, so you have any of the other technology they list on their web site, i.e.: A Bluetooth GPS receiver A USB Bluetooth dongle (optional) A Bluetooth headset (optional) A Multimedia card (MMC) reader (optional) A high-capacity Multimedia Card (MMC) (optional) . What has been your experience with this program vis-a-vis the wayfinder? Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:46:26 -0600 "Michael O. Hanson" writes: > Dear Mr. Schulz: > > Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS > program > myself. I use Wayfinder Access. > > I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. > Loadstone is a > free open source software program available to anybody with the > appropriate > cell phone. > > I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader > through > Minnesota State Services for the Blind. > > I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a > book > deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with > other > sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or > visit > www.blindhiker.com for more information. > > Sincerely, > > > Mike Hanson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Schulz" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > > > hi, > > > > this sounds cool but... > > did you get the gps unit for free?? > > are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? > > is this funded by the nfb as well?? > > Bryan > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM > > Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > > > > >> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: > >> > >> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a > member of > >> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. > >> > >> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS > starting in > >> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with > visual > >> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to > achieve our > >> independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. > Adaptive > >> technology will be a major component of my hike. > >> > >> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a > documentary of > >> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more > information > >> on my plans. > >> > >> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only > obstacle on > >> my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the > dependence > >> of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons > with visual > >> impairments. Make me take a hike! > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> > >> Mike Hanson > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >> blindlaw: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcg lobal.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winte rnet.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD! Shop now at http://offers.juno.com/TGL1141/?u=http://www.ftd.com/17007 From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 01:24:40 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:24:40 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a> <16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook> Message-ID: <171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a> I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you included in your message! I think the statements such a project can make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > hi, > > sorry for the misjudgement. > it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and safe > hiking. > if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more intelligent > than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. > Bryan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> Dear Mr. Schulz: >> >> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS program >> myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >> >> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone is >> a free open source software program available to anybody with the >> appropriate cell phone. >> >> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >> >> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a book >> deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with other >> sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or visit >> www.blindhiker.com for more information. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> hi, >>> >>> this sounds cool but... >>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>> Bryan >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>> >>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of >>>> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>> >>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >>>> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >>>> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve >>>> our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. >>>> Adaptive technology will be a major component of my hike. >>>> >>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of >>>> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>> information on my plans. >>>> >>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle >>>> on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the >>>> dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for >>>> persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Hanson >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 01:30:09 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <20081213.173701.424.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Dear Mr. Stiehm: I have a Nokia N82 with a memory card. I have a USB Bluetooth dongle to connect my phone to my computer. This is the best way to transfer files in my experience. It is much easier to se than the cable connection Nokia provides. I find Loadstone much better than Wayfinder Access at allowing me to pinpoint exact locations of buildings, corners, etc. On the other hand, I find Wayfinder Access better at planning routes in unfamiliar locations. Wayfinder Access requires a cell phone signal. Loadstone does not. Therefore, Loadstone is almost essential in my experience. I hope this answers your questions. Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > Dear Mr. Hanson, > > Is the Loadstone GPS software on you Nokia N82? if so, so you have any > of the other technology they list on their web site, i.e.: > A Bluetooth GPS receiver > A USB Bluetooth dongle (optional) > A Bluetooth headset (optional) > A Multimedia card (MMC) reader (optional) > A high-capacity Multimedia Card (MMC) (optional) . > > What has been your experience with this program vis-a-vis the wayfinder? > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:46:26 -0600 "Michael O. Hanson" > writes: >> Dear Mr. Schulz: >> >> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >> program >> myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >> >> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >> Loadstone is a >> free open source software program available to anybody with the >> appropriate >> cell phone. >> >> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader >> through >> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >> >> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >> book >> deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >> other >> sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or >> visit >> www.blindhiker.com for more information. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >> > hi, >> > >> > this sounds cool but... >> > did you get the gps unit for free?? >> > are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >> > is this funded by the nfb as well?? >> > Bryan >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> > To: >> > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >> > Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> > >> > >> >> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >> >> >> >> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >> member of >> >> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >> >> >> >> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS >> starting in >> >> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >> visual >> >> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >> achieve our >> >> independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. >> Adaptive >> >> technology will be a major component of my hike. >> >> >> >> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a >> documentary of >> >> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >> information >> >> on my plans. >> >> >> >> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >> obstacle on >> >> my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the >> dependence >> >> of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons >> with visual >> >> impairments. Make me take a hike! >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcg > lobal.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> > blindlaw: >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winte > rnet.com >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com >> >> > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD! > Shop now at http://offers.juno.com/TGL1141/?u=http://www.ftd.com/17007 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 15 04:05:44 2008 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:05:44 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook> <171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: <0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook> hi, my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? Bryan Schulz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael O. Hanson" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >included in your message! I think the statements such a project can make >deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. > > > Mike Hanson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Schulz" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> hi, >> >> sorry for the misjudgement. >> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and safe >> hiking. >> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more intelligent >> than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >> Bryan >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>> >>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS program >>> myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>> >>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone >>> is a free open source software program available to anybody with the >>> appropriate cell phone. >>> >>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>> >>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or >>> visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> hi, >>>> >>>> this sounds cool but... >>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>> Bryan >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>> >>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member >>>>> of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>> >>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >>>>> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >>>>> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve >>>>> our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. >>>>> Adaptive technology will be a major component of my hike. >>>>> >>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of >>>>> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>> information on my plans. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle >>>>> on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the >>>>> dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for >>>>> persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 13:31:22 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:31:22 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a> <0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook> Message-ID: <54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. Finishing in early November is an option. Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > hi, > > my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. > > how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? > Bryan Schulz > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can make >>deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> hi, >>> >>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and safe >>> hiking. >>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more intelligent >>> than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>> Bryan >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>> >>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS program >>>> myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>> >>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone >>>> is a free open source software program available to anybody with the >>>> appropriate cell phone. >>>> >>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>> >>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or >>>> visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Hanson >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> hi, >>>>> >>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>> Bryan >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>> >>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member >>>>>> of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >>>>>> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >>>>>> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve >>>>>> our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. >>>>>> Adaptive technology will be a major component of my hike. >>>>>> >>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle >>>>>> on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the >>>>>> dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for >>>>>> persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From stiehm.law at juno.com Mon Dec 15 13:54:09 2008 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:54:09 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike Message-ID: <20081215.085410.5376.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Dear Mr. Hanson, Yes this answer is most helpful. Thank you. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600 "Michael O. Hanson" writes: > Dear Mr. Stiehm: > > I have a Nokia N82 with a memory card. I have a USB Bluetooth > dongle to > connect my phone to my computer. This is the best way to transfer > files in > my experience. It is much easier to se than the cable connection > Nokia > provides. > > I find Loadstone much better than Wayfinder Access at allowing me to > > pinpoint exact locations of buildings, corners, etc. On the other > hand, I > find Wayfinder Access better at planning routes in unfamiliar > locations. > Wayfinder Access requires a cell phone signal. Loadstone does not. > > Therefore, Loadstone is almost essential in my experience. I hope > this > answers your questions. > > > Mike Hanson ____________________________________________________________ Take a break - you deserve it. Click here to find a great vacation. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2gGUg4tvN9EeokMjWMrecfgwcn18sn7iNhhiDXWp4Xo3YIv/ From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 15 15:07:09 2008 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (The Weisberg Group) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:07:09 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook> <54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: <26D518A801D34C928A033B62C376DE8E@JamesWeisberg> Hey Mike, who did you work with at services for the blind? About fifteen years ago I worked with Jon Bensen. Great Support. James ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael O. Hanson" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. Finishing >in early November is an option. > > > Mike Hanson > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Schulz" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> hi, >> >> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >> >> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >> Bryan Schulz >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can make >>>deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> hi, >>>> >>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and safe >>>> hiking. >>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>> Bryan >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>> >>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>> >>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone >>>>> is a free open source software program available to anybody with the >>>>> appropriate cell phone. >>>>> >>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>> >>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me >>>>> or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>> Bryan >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member >>>>>>> of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >>>>>>> achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my hike. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%40sbcglobal.net From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 15 16:00:39 2008 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:00:39 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook> <54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: <000601c95ece$46f64b70$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> How much sighted help will you use? There will be aspects, such as finding the next shelter or the outhouse when at the shelter, which will prove difficult, even with GPS. How will you handle mail drops and re-supply caches? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael O. Hanson" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. Finishing >in early November is an option. > > > Mike Hanson > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Schulz" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> hi, >> >> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >> >> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >> Bryan Schulz >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can make >>>deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> hi, >>>> >>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and safe >>>> hiking. >>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>> Bryan >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>> >>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>> >>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone >>>>> is a free open source software program available to anybody with the >>>>> appropriate cell phone. >>>>> >>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>> >>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me >>>>> or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>> Bryan >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member >>>>>>> of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >>>>>>> achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my hike. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 16:44:44 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:44:44 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <20081215.085410.5376.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: I am glad you found my answers helpful. I forgot to include the Bluetooth receivers I use. In my opinion, a Royaltec RBT-2210 or Holux M-1000 are the best receivers available at this time. Although the Nokia N82 has an internal receiver, it is difficult to use because of lack of a signal. Using an internal receiver on a cell phone also seriously depletes battery power. Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > Dear Mr. Hanson, > > Yes this answer is most helpful. Thank you. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600 "Michael O. Hanson" > writes: >> Dear Mr. Stiehm: >> >> I have a Nokia N82 with a memory card. I have a USB Bluetooth >> dongle to >> connect my phone to my computer. This is the best way to transfer >> files in >> my experience. It is much easier to se than the cable connection >> Nokia >> provides. >> >> I find Loadstone much better than Wayfinder Access at allowing me to >> >> pinpoint exact locations of buildings, corners, etc. On the other >> hand, I >> find Wayfinder Access better at planning routes in unfamiliar >> locations. >> Wayfinder Access requires a cell phone signal. Loadstone does not. >> >> Therefore, Loadstone is almost essential in my experience. I hope >> this >> answers your questions. >> >> >> Mike Hanson > ____________________________________________________________ > Take a break - you deserve it. Click here to find a great vacation. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2gGUg4tvN9EeokMjWMrecfgwcn18sn7iNhhiDXWp4Xo3YIv/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 15 17:46:49 2008 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:46:49 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook><54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> <000601c95ece$46f64b70$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> Message-ID: <8645C05E131C4B6BA842261B99227339@notebook> hi, will you have a solar panel to recharge your gear? Bryan Schulz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > How much sighted help will you use? There will be aspects, such as > finding the next shelter or the outhouse when at the shelter, which will > prove difficult, even with GPS. How will you handle mail drops and > re-supply caches? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >>I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >>March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. >>Finishing in early November is an option. >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> hi, >>> >>> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >>> >>> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >>> Bryan Schulz >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can >>>>make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Hanson >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> hi, >>>>> >>>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and >>>>> safe hiking. >>>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>>> Bryan >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>>> >>>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >>>>>> Loadstone is a free open source software program available to anybody >>>>>> with the appropriate cell phone. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me >>>>>> or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >>>>>>>> member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >>>>>>>> achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my >>>>>>>> hike. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 18:45:43 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:45:43 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook><54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> <26D518A801D34C928A033B62C376DE8E@JamesWeisberg> Message-ID: <8EDFBE9438E34B8A8AE64855C5C9E4A4@hp048378e4c43a> I am working with Michael Newman. I believe things have changed quite a bit in the last fifteen years. ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Weisberg Group" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > Hey Mike, who did you work with at services for the blind? About fifteen > years ago I worked with Jon Bensen. Great Support. > > James > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >>I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >>March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. >>Finishing in early November is an option. >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> hi, >>> >>> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >>> >>> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >>> Bryan Schulz >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can >>>>make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Hanson >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> hi, >>>>> >>>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and >>>>> safe hiking. >>>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>>> Bryan >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>>> >>>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >>>>>> Loadstone is a free open source software program available to anybody >>>>>> with the appropriate cell phone. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me >>>>>> or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >>>>>>>> member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >>>>>>>> achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my >>>>>>>> hike. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 18:52:17 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:52:17 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook><54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> <000601c95ece$46f64b70$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> Message-ID: <638580B4385D4A4A9A9A91FFA009EE0A@hp048378e4c43a> I will use as little sighted help as possible. That being said, I am well aware that the next person to through-hike the At without assistance will be the first. I will have someone hold mail for me and deal with it as necessary. I have a team member in place to do that. That is a common enough practice. Resupply should not be overly difficult. I plan to pick most of what I need up in towns along the trail. I can have necessary items shipped to post offices and held for me. Both practices are very common. As for finding outhouses near shelters, etc., I am timing my trip to coincide with the through-hiking season. That should allow for people to be available if their assistance is needed. There are actual GPS coordinates for shelters. They are good to within about ten yards. Various publications have very good descriptions of where outhouses, water sources, etc. are located, including distances and directions from landmarks for which I have reliable coordinates. Sincerely, Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > How much sighted help will you use? There will be aspects, such as > finding the next shelter or the outhouse when at the shelter, which will > prove difficult, even with GPS. How will you handle mail drops and > re-supply caches? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >>I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >>March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. >>Finishing in early November is an option. >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> hi, >>> >>> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >>> >>> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >>> Bryan Schulz >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can >>>>make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Hanson >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> hi, >>>>> >>>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and >>>>> safe hiking. >>>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>>> Bryan >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>>> >>>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >>>>>> Loadstone is a free open source software program available to anybody >>>>>> with the appropriate cell phone. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me >>>>>> or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >>>>>>>> member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >>>>>>>> achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my >>>>>>>> hike. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 18:54:02 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:54:02 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook><54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a><000601c95ece$46f64b70$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> <8645C05E131C4B6BA842261B99227339@notebook> Message-ID: <4137173303AC4F47AA5FA2C4010B3A2C@hp048378e4c43a> I will use two different options to recharge my gear. first, I expect to need to resupply often enough to use available electricity to recharge my equipment. I will carry enough batteries to make that possible. Second, I will carry a charger that uses standard batteries. I will probably not use a solar charger because of tree cover and other factors. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:46 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > hi, > > will you have a solar panel to recharge your gear? > Bryan Schulz > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark BurningHawk" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:00 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> How much sighted help will you use? There will be aspects, such as >> finding the next shelter or the outhouse when at the shelter, which will >> prove difficult, even with GPS. How will you handle mail drops and >> re-supply caches? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>>I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >>>March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. >>>Finishing in early November is an option. >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> hi, >>>> >>>> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >>>> >>>> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >>>> Bryan Schulz >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can >>>>>make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and >>>>>> safe hiking. >>>>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>>>> Bryan >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >>>>>>> Loadstone is a free open source software program available to >>>>>>> anybody with the appropriate cell phone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader >>>>>>> through Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along >>>>>>> with other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please >>>>>>> email me or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >>>>>>>>> member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology >>>>>>>>> to achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my >>>>>>>>> hike. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a >>>>>>>>> documentary of Mike's Hike. Please visit >>>>>>>>> http://www.blindhiker.com for more information on my plans. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From lmilholland at hotmail.com Mon Dec 15 19:32:34 2008 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:32:34 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook><54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> <000601c95ece$46f64b70$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> Message-ID: For better or worse, I've never been camping yet where there was an outhouse you couldn't find by smell. I also suggest packing food bars: http://www.raytechcatalog.com/product_info/mayday-food-bar-3600-calories-127.html I plan to get some for long court days. Locke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > How much sighted help will you use? There will be aspects, such as > finding the next shelter or the outhouse when at the shelter, which will > prove difficult, even with GPS. How will you handle mail drops and > re-supply caches? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >>I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >>March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. >>Finishing in early November is an option. >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> hi, >>> >>> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >>> >>> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >>> Bryan Schulz >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can >>>>make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Hanson >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> hi, >>>>> >>>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and >>>>> safe hiking. >>>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>>> Bryan >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>>> >>>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >>>>>> Loadstone is a free open source software program available to anybody >>>>>> with the appropriate cell phone. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me >>>>>> or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >>>>>>>> member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >>>>>>>> achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my >>>>>>>> hike. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com > From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 23:00:24 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:00:24 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook><54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a><000601c95ece$46f64b70$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> Message-ID: <90F3FCC5AAD14B54A62A7A5AC1638340@hp048378e4c43a> Thank you for the advice about food bars. I agree with you about outhouses. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Locke Milholland" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > For better or worse, I've never been camping yet where there was an > outhouse you couldn't find by smell. > > I also suggest packing food bars: > http://www.raytechcatalog.com/product_info/mayday-food-bar-3600-calories-127.html > > I plan to get some for long court days. > Locke > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark BurningHawk" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:00 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> How much sighted help will you use? There will be aspects, such as >> finding the next shelter or the outhouse when at the shelter, which will >> prove difficult, even with GPS. How will you handle mail drops and >> re-supply caches? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>>I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >>>March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. >>>Finishing in early November is an option. >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> hi, >>>> >>>> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >>>> >>>> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >>>> Bryan Schulz >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can >>>>>make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and >>>>>> safe hiking. >>>>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>>>> Bryan >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >>>>>>> Loadstone is a free open source software program available to >>>>>>> anybody with the appropriate cell phone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader >>>>>>> through Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along >>>>>>> with other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please >>>>>>> email me or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >>>>>>>>> member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology >>>>>>>>> to achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my >>>>>>>>> hike. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a >>>>>>>>> documentary of Mike's Hike. Please visit >>>>>>>>> http://www.blindhiker.com for more information on my plans. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Dec 15 23:42:14 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:42:14 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Director of Externship Programs-Seattle University Law School - Ref#15248491 Message-ID: ________________________________ From: Lopez, Fe [mailto:lopezf at seattleu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:39 AM To: Chach Duarte White Subject: Position Open-Director of Externship Programs-SU Law School Seattle University School of Law is seeking candidates for the position of Director of Externship Programs to begin in Summer 2009 (see more details below and attached). If you know of strong candidates for this position, please encourage them to submit applicaiton materials or contact Vice Dean Clark to express their interest. DIRECTOR OF EXTERNSHIP PROGRAMS SEATTLE UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW Seattle University School of Law invites applications and nominations for the position of Director of Externship Programs to begin in Summer 2009. The School of Law is seeking a faculty Director who will build upon the strong foundation of our large and thriving Externship Programs (approximately 150 student externs across the fall, spring, and summer terms) and further deepen our commitment to providing a high quality educational and practice experience for our students. The Director of Externship Programs, working with the Director of the Ronald A. Peterson Law Clinic and the Vice Dean, counsels and advises students on externship opportunities; administers and oversees all field placements; educates and trains field supervisors and conducts site visits; supervises associated adjunct faculty and administrative staff; develops and implements externship policies and procedures; oversees and develops the externship seminar curricula; and provides vision and leadership for the School of Law's extensive and diverse externship offerings. The Director will be expected to teach at least one of the externship seminars and engage in professional development consistent with our 405(c) faculty contract standards. The Director will also work with other faculty and centers within the School of Law and University, as well as stakeholders in the community, to fulfill the school's mission of educating for justice. The Director is expected to model the highest levels of professionalism, reflective practice, and commitment to academic excellence. Qualifications: J.D. degree and a minimum of 3 years of practice experience are required; teaching experience is strongly preferred; clerkship experience is a plus. Seattle University School of Law educates ethical lawyers who distinguish themselves through their outstanding professional skills and their dedication to law in the service of justice. Faculty, students, and staff form a vibrant, diverse, and collaborative community dedicated to the mission of educating outstanding lawyers who are leaders for a just and humane world. The School of Law's commitment to academic distinction is grounded in its Jesuit Catholic tradition - one that encourages open inquiry, thoughtful reflection and concern for personal growth. Innovation, creativity and technological sophistication characterize our rigorous educational program, which prepares our graduates for a wide range of successful and rewarding careers in law, business, and public service. The School of Law occupies a state-of-the-art building in one of the nation's most vibrant and livable cities and is enjoying an exciting trajectory of programmatic growth and institutional advancement. Founded in 1891, Seattle University is one of 28 Jesuit universities in the U.S. Dedicated to educating the whole person, to professional formation, and to empowering leaders for a just and humane world, Seattle University is located near downtown on 48 acres in the Capitol Hill neighborhood. U.S. News and World Report's "Best Colleges 2009" ranks Seattle University among the top 10 universities in the West that offer a full range of masters and undergraduate programs. There are currently over 7,500 students enrolled within the university's eight schools and colleges. Seattle University is an Equal Opportunity Employer. For more information on Seattle University generally, please visit www.seattleu.edu; for more information on the School of Law, please visit www.law.seattleu.edu. Applications will be considered beginning January 12, 2008. Electronic applications are encouraged. Contact: Annette E. Clark, Vice Dean and Associate Professor of Law, Chair, Externship Program Director Search Committee, Seattle University School of Law, 901 12th Ave, Box 222000, Seattle, WA 98122. Telephone: (206) 398-4069; Fax: (206) 398-4310; Email: annclark at seattleu.edu. ________________________________________ HINT: When replying by email, please do not include the original message View and add comments online: https://www.bigtent.com/group/forum/message/15248491 From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Dec 17 20:56:14 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:56:14 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: ________________________________ From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:44 AM To: mjain at gdblegal.com; mlorenzo at graycary.com; nawl at nawl.org; ncai at ncai.org; nedy at wyjlaw.com; newmedia at ja.org; Neysas at dnfsb.gov; Maurer, Patricia; nijc at aol.com; nlove at opd.state.md.us; nmcconnell at jackscamp.com; noconnell at tabinc.org; noryrp at cox.net; nromulus at gmail.com; ntb at boglechang.com; ocaaba at cox.net; omanager at lawyerscomm.org; palsd at hotmail.com; patel at fr.com; patsyy at bellnunnally.com; pchanster at yahoo.com; pchapman at koonz.com; pgrewal at daycasebeer.com; pkim at lordbissell.com Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY CRIMINAL DIVISION, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE 08-MDTN-03 Cover letter and resume must be received by December 22, 2008. This vacancy will be opened until filled. Date posted: 12-15-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY CRIMINAL DIVISION, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE 08-MDTN-02 Cover letter and resume must be received by December 22, 2008. This vacancy will be opened until filled. Date posted: 12-15-2008 * DEPUTY GENERAL COUNSEL GS-0905-15 POSTING 290-ND-09 NATIONAL DRUG INTELLIGENCE CENTER JOHNSTOWN, PENNSYLVANIA Closing date January 12, 2009. Date posted: 12-15-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION/CRIMINAL SECTION DEPUTY CHIEF, GS-15 This position is open until January 5, 2009. Date posted: 12-12-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE U.S. TRUSTEE PROGRAM -- RIVERSIDE, CA ASSISTANT U.S. TRUSTEE This position will be open until December 29, 2008. Date posted: 12-12-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF ALASKA 08-AK-011 Resumes will be reviewed and acted upon on a rolling basis until the position is filled. Date posted: 12-09-2008 * DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DEPUTY CHIEF, GANG UNIT GS-905-15 CRIMINAL DIVISION WASHINGTON, D.C. ANNOUNCEMENT: 08-CRM-GSU-045 APPLICATION DEADLINE: FEBRUARY 8, 2009 Deadline date for submission is February 8, 2009. The cut-off will be the 15th and 30th of each month. Date posted: 12-08-2008 * ATTORNEY VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI GULFPORT, MISSISSIPPI ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 09-01 DECEMBER 5, 2008 All applications/resumes should be postmarked no later than December 12, 2008. Date posted: 12-05-2008 * DEPUTY CHIEF, COMPUTER CRIME AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY SECTION ES-905 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION WASHINGTON, D.C. VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER - 08-CRM-SES-06 Applications must be received by 12/29/08. Date posted: 12-05-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION NATURAL RESOURCES SECTION GS-12/15 OPEN: DECEMBER 5, 2008 CLOSE: JANUARY 16, 2009. VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: ENRD-09-007-EXC Date posted: 12-05-2008 * EXPERIENCED PROSECUTOR NEEDED TO SERVE AS AN OPDAT INTERMITTENT LEGAL ADVISOR IN BRAZIL Applications will be accepted until the position is filled Date posted: 12-05-2008 * EXPERIENCED PROSECUTOR NEEDED TO SERVE AS AN OPDAT INTERMITTENT LEGAL ADVISOR IN BANGLADESH Applications will be accepted until December 29, 2008. Date posted: 12-05-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE U.S. TRUSTEE'S OFFICE -- HARRISBURG, PA TRIAL ATTORNEY Applications must be postmarked by the closing date of December 19, 2008 and will be accepted up to five calendar days after the closing date. Date posted: 12-02-2008 * SPECIAL ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY PUBLIC LANDS ATTORNEY U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR SOLICITOR'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF NEVADA ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 09-NV-SAUSA-01 Application packages must be postmarked by December 15, 2008. Date posted: 12-01-2008 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Fri Dec 19 21:25:17 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:25:17 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Save the Date IMPACT Career Fair for Law Students and Attorneys with Disabilities Message-ID: ________________________________ From: CMPDL E-mail List [mailto:CMPDL-MENTORPROGRAM at MAIL.ABANET.ORG] On Behalf Of Barbara Carlson Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:56 AM To: CMPDL-MENTORPROGRAM at MAIL.ABANET.ORG Subject: Save the Date IMPACT Career Fair for Law Students and Attorneys with Disabilities [image001.gif] SAVE THE DATE! 5th Annual IMPACT Career Fair Friday, August 7, 2009 10:00 am - 5:00 pm Hotel TBA (Washington, DC Area) We hope you will join us again for the 5th Annual IMPACT Career Fair for Law Students and Attorneys with Disabilities in Washington, DC on Friday, August 7, 2009. You have the ability to prescreen applications from law students and graduates in the class of 2011 and earlier, from across the nation. Formal interviews will be held in the hotel Ballroom. * Registration fee for Law Firms & Corporations (includes one lunch; $25.00 for each additional lunch) $200.00 * Registration fee for Government & Public Interest (includes one lunch; $25.00 for each additional lunch) No Fee Registration will be available soon! We will send an email announcing when registration is live. For more information click here. ============== Mentor Program Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law American Bar Association CMPDL-MENTORPROGRAM at MAIL.ABANET.ORG http://www.abanet.org/disability/mentorprogram/mentor.shtml ------------------------------ To leave this list at any time, please send a message to listserv at mail.abanet.org. In the body of the message type "sign off cmpdl-mentorprogram." To read the list archives, please visit http://mail.abanet.org/archives/cmpdl-mentorprogram.html. If you have any questions about the list or the CMPDL in general, please contact William Phelan at phelanw at staff.abanet.org or 202-662-1576. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 8642 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From dandrews at visi.com Sun Dec 21 17:29:45 2008 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:29:45 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E13F23D@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot .gov> References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E13F23D@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> Message-ID: Actually section 508 is a procurement law. It has to do with stuff purchased with federal funds. Dave At 02:43 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote: >Section 508 is strictly "Electronic and Information Technology" and >would not apply in this situation. > >More likely, Section 504, which applies to program access, would be >applicable here. Of course, access to the SSA website, electronic >documentation, and other technological apparatus is important, but if >the SSA doesn't send electronic notices to clients, then they don't >necessarily have to do it for blind clients under Section 508. Section >504 is a totally different matter, one that Jim discussed perfectly. > >Best, >Craig > >Craig Borne, Esq. >NHTSA/DOT >(202) 493-0627 >craig.borne at dot.gov > >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >On Behalf Of James Pepper >Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:07 PM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > >Charles and Jim: >SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be >accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do >with >their charter, they are required to be accessible. > >Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with >the >forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social >Security >Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for >the >blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more >concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This >confuses >the issue. > >What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you >can >walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the >content >with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there >in >front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by >the IT >people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test >their >pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by >the >blind. > >It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you >go >through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it >is >not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible >or it >isn't there is no in between. > >IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs >like >Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests >only >test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they >are >not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for >compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with >the >programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they >take >them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, >this >means that nothing is done when they do it wrong. > >This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the >Texas >Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming >its >products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were >not >accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The >demonstrated >the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is >now >in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible >accessibility. > >The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows >that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The >question >is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does >ACM >insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive >forms >and documents. > >The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is >accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into >this >all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge >their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But >that doesn't mean they know how to do it. > >You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon >an >accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as >fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you >must >do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online >seminars >how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents >videos >from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from >showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast >of >flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no >regard >for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule >was >in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on >automatically. > >So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. >The >first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited >for >W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in >minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites >should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium) >compliance is a test to determine if your website's code >is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write >code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to >determine if their IT people know what they are doing. > >Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they >actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace >them >with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up >webpages, >make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies >and >states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be >fixing bad code with other bad code. > >IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they >control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their >jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot >do >it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The >problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, >the >Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other >way >around. > >Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal >protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not >braille. > >I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS >and >Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies >who >think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are >English >only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish >descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act? > >There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do >it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix >this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can >make >SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and >Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not >have >all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most >of >SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot >of >time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF >format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think >SSA >could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and >integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already >familiar >with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT >people >that things are possible because after all, they run the agency. > >Sincerely, > >James G. Pepper >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/craig.borne%40 >dot.gov > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: >12/8/2008 9:38 AM From cjborne at comcast.net Sun Dec 21 22:31:42 2008 From: cjborne at comcast.net (Craig Borne) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:31:42 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com><33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local><61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E13F23D@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> Message-ID: <00f401c963bb$e6117df0$7100a8c0@computer> Not exactly, Dave. Section 508 has elements of procurement law, but at its root is the accessibility of electronic and information technology to federal employees with disabilities. It covers websites to telephones, copy machines to fax machines. An element of Section 508 is certifications from vendors that the equipment is accessible, but the regs on 508 are very tech specific as to how the information and electronic technology should be accessible. Regs for Section 508 are found on the U.S. Access Board's website. Section 508, by and large, does not apply to the public; only federal employees. Section 504 applies to both federal employees (working in federal buildings) and recipients of federal financial assistance. Craig Craig Borne Baltimore, Maryland "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom." --Thomas Paine, Common Sense -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:30 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question Actually section 508 is a procurement law. It has to do with stuff purchased with federal funds. Dave At 02:43 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote: >Section 508 is strictly "Electronic and Information Technology" and >would not apply in this situation. > >More likely, Section 504, which applies to program access, would be >applicable here. Of course, access to the SSA website, electronic >documentation, and other technological apparatus is important, but if >the SSA doesn't send electronic notices to clients, then they don't >necessarily have to do it for blind clients under Section 508. Section >504 is a totally different matter, one that Jim discussed perfectly. > >Best, >Craig > >Craig Borne, Esq. >NHTSA/DOT >(202) 493-0627 >craig.borne at dot.gov > >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >On Behalf Of James Pepper >Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:07 PM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > >Charles and Jim: >SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be >accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do >with >their charter, they are required to be accessible. > >Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with >the >forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social >Security >Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for >the >blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more >concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This >confuses >the issue. > >What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you >can >walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the >content >with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there >in >front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by >the IT >people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test >their >pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by >the >blind. > >It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you >go >through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it >is >not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible >or it >isn't there is no in between. > >IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs >like >Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests >only >test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they >are >not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for >compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with >the >programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they >take >them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, >this >means that nothing is done when they do it wrong. > >This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the >Texas >Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming >its >products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were >not >accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The >demonstrated >the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is >now >in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible >accessibility. > >The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows >that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The >question >is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does >ACM >insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive >forms >and documents. > >The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is >accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into >this >all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge >their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But >that doesn't mean they know how to do it. > >You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon >an >accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as >fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you >must >do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online >seminars >how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents >videos >from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from >showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast >of >flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no >regard >for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule >was >in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on >automatically. > >So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. >The >first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited >for >W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in >minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites >should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium) >compliance is a test to determine if your website's code >is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write >code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to >determine if their IT people know what they are doing. > >Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they >actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace >them >with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up >webpages, >make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies >and >states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be >fixing bad code with other bad code. > >IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they >control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their >jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot >do >it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The >problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, >the >Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other >way >around. > >Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal >protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not >braille. > >I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS >and >Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies >who >think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are >English >only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish >descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act? > >There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do >it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix >this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can >make >SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and >Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not >have >all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most >of >SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot >of >time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF >format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think >SSA >could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and >integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already >familiar >with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT >people >that things are possible because after all, they run the agency. > >Sincerely, > >James G. Pepper >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/craig.borne%40 >dot.gov > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.c om > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: >12/8/2008 9:38 AM _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast. net From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Dec 31 17:45:26 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:45:26 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: ________________________________ From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:10 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:52 AM To: nijc at aol.com; nlove at opd.state.md.us; nmcconnell at jackscamp.com; noconnell at tabinc.org; noryrp at cox.net; nromulus at gmail.com; ntb at boglechang.com; ocaaba at cox.net; omanager at lawyerscomm.org; palsd at hotmail.com; patel at fr.com; patsyy at bellnunnally.com; pchanster at yahoo.com; pchapman at koonz.com; pgrewal at daycasebeer.com; pkim at lordbissell.com; Maurer, Patricia; pmorrison at state.wv.us; poppy.johnston at unlv.edu; president at abaw.org; president at adc.org; president at apabala.org Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies * ATTORNEY ADVISOR EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW FALLS CHURCH, VA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-09-0016 All Applications must be received in the Human Resources Office by the close of business on January 5, 2009. Date posted: 12-29-2008 * UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA ASSISTANT UNTIED STATES ATTORNEY SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA DECEMBER 29, 2008 09-EDCA-02A Applications should be postmarked no later than January 21, 2009. Date posted: 12-29-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION, DISABILITY RIGHTS SECTION SUPERVISORY TRIAL ATTORNEY GS-905-15 This position is open until January 13, 2009. Date posted: 12-24-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY, ATTORNEY ADVISOR / GS-12/13 ANNOUNCEMENT: OLA-09-01 This position is open until January 15, 2009. Date posted: 12-22-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 08-AUSASDGA-07 Deadline date Friday, January 5, 2009. Date posted: 12-22-2008 * ASSISTANT BRANCH DIRECTOR/GS-15 CIVIL DIVISION, COMMERCIAL LITIGATION BRANCH NATIONAL COURTS SECTION WASHINGTON, DC Application materials must be submitted no later than January 9, 2009. Date posted: 12-22-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION APPELLATE SECTION TRIAL ATTORNEY / GS-13 to GS-15 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 08-CRM-APP-046 This position is open until filled. Date posted: 12-22-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 09-SDTX-01 (AUSA-TERM) Positions are open until filled. The initial cutoff date for receipt of applications is December 31, 2008. Date posted: 12-19-2008 * ATTORNEY-ADVISOR FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS NORTHEAST REGIONAL OFFICE (CONSOLIDATED LEGAL CENTER) PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA GS-905-12/13 This position is open until filled, but no later than January 7, 2009. Date posted: 12-17-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA 09-AZ-02 All materials must be received by January 16, 2009. Date posted: 12-16-2008 * CHIEF IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-09-0012 Applications received after February 13, 2009 will not be considered. Date posted: 12-16-2008 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Dec 2 20:32:37 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:32:37 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: ________________________________ From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:10 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:09 PM To: nedy at wyjlaw.com; newmedia at ja.org; Neysas at dnfsb.gov; Maurer, Patricia; nijc at aol.com; nlove at opd.state.md.us; nmcconnell at jackscamp.com; noconnell at tabinc.org; noryrp at cox.net; nromulus at gmail.com; ntb at boglechang.com; ocaaba at cox.net; omanager at lawyerscomm.org; palsd at hotmail.com; patel at fr.com; patsyy at bellnunnally.com; pchanster at yahoo.com; pchapman at koonz.com; pgrewal at daycasebeer.com; pkim at lordbissell.com; Maurer, Patricia; pmorrison at state.wv.us; poppy.johnston at unlv.edu; president at abaw.org Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION OFFICE OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEY POSITIONS GS-0905 -13/14/15 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER:08-CRM-OIA-044 This vacancy announcement will remain open until all positions are filled. Date posted: 11-28-2008 * VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN Applications must be received by December 8, 2008 Date posted: 11-26-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION OFFICE OF OVERSEAS PROSECUTORIAL DEVELOPMENT, ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY / GS-14 to GS-15 Applications will be accepted until filled. Date posted: 11-26-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION OFFICE OF OVERSEAS PROSECUTORIAL DEVELOPMENT, ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY / GS-14 to GS-15 Applications will be accepted until filled. Date posted: 11-26-2008 * BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES OFFICE OF THE CHIEF COUNSEL (ADMINISTRATION AND ETHICS DIVISION) GENERAL ATTORNEY, GS-905-15 WASHINGTON, DC Applications must be received by December 16, 2008. Date posted: 11-25-2008 * BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES OFFICE OF THE CHIEF COUNSEL (ADMINISTRATION AND ETHICS DIVISION) GENERAL ATTORNEY, GS-905-12/13/14 WASHINGTON, DC Applications must be received by December 16, 2008. Date posted: 11-25-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF COLORADO VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-CO-AUSA-03 This announcement is open until filled. Applications received by close of business (5:00pm Mountain Standard Time) Tuesday, December 2, 2008 will receive first consideration. Date posted: 11-24-2008 * UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA 09-AZ-01 Application closing date December 31, 2008. Date posted: 11-24-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON #2009-2 Applications must be post-marked no later than December 8, 2008. Date posted: 11-21-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF CHIEF COUNSEL / CIVIL LITIGATION SECTION EXPERIENCED ATTORNEYS / GS-11 to GS-14 (PROMOTION POTENTIAL to GS-15) Applications must be received by December 31, 2008. Date posted: 11-21-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF GEORGIA HONORABLE MAXWELL WOOD Vacancy Announcement Number 09-MDGA-02 All application packages must be postmarked no later than Wednesday, November 26, 2008. Date posted: 11-20-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION OFFICE OF OVERSEAS PROSECUTORIAL DEVELOPMENT, ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY / GS-14 to GS-15 (ILA-SURINAME AND GUYANA) Applications will be accepted until position is filled. Date posted: 11-20-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON #2009-1 Applications must be post-marked no later than December 8, 2008. Date posted: 11-18-2008 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 17:49:48 2008 From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:49:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. bar recently Message-ID: <194659.12668.qm@web90304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is for those of you who have taken the D.C. bar recently (within the last couple of years or so.)   As far as writing the essays for the MPT and MEE, what accommodations were given to you? Did they allow you to braille your answers and then read them onto tape or did they make you use a typewriter?   As far as double time, did they make the two-day exam into a four day exam? If so, how did this work? That is, what portions of the test were you given on each day?   Thanks.   Mike From fairall at shellworld.net Wed Dec 3 22:23:47 2008 From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:23:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. bar recently In-Reply-To: <194659.12668.qm@web90304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <194659.12668.qm@web90304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike: Have you considered using a notetaker or laptop for the essay portion of the exam? From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 00:13:32 2008 From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:13:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. bar recently In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <286047.77315.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Leslie,   I thought about that. The packet specifically says no laptops. I guess they're afraid of people cheating or something.   I did think about using my BrailleNote and hooking it up to a printer; but, they may consider it to be similar to a laptop. But, I guess we could say a braillewriter is a typewriter (on the request for accomodations form, it asks yes or no if the applicant is using a typewriter.)   Mike --- On Wed, 12/3/08, Leslie Fairall wrote: From: Leslie Fairall Subject: Re: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. bar recently To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 5:23 PM Hi Mike: Have you considered using a notetaker or laptop for the essay portion of the exam? _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m_b_gilmore%40yahoo.com From keith-vick at msn.com Thu Dec 4 00:55:44 2008 From: keith-vick at msn.com (Keith Vick) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 19:55:44 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] ADA from Canada? In-Reply-To: <000701c8ed22$1059f120$0a02a8c0@everett704e491> References: <000701c8ed22$1059f120$0a02a8c0@everett704e491> Message-ID: Hi, I realize that it has been awhile since this question was posed. The reason why I am answer this question with such a delay is that I went over a case today and thought of the issue posed by Mr. Zufelt's question: does the ADA 'extend' to employer activities in Canada in the provision of services or employment? I think the answer is a maybe. A recent case on this issues is Spector v. Norwegian Cruise Lines, 125 S. Ct. 2169 (2005). In Spector some disabled cruise passengers and their companions--alleging, among other matters, that physical barriers on two of the company's Bahamas-registered ships had denied the disabled passengers access to various facilities. The Supreme Court held that "[a]lthough, in some circumstances, a general statute will not apply, absent a clear statement of congressional intent, to certain aspects of the internal operations of foreign vessels temporarily in United States waters [nevertheless] [t]he cruise ships in question fell within Title III's definitions of 'public accommodation' and 'specified public transportation.'" (emphasis added). Hence, some parts of the ADA do apply to events occurring outside the territory of United States. However, this does not mean that Title I (employment) would likewise apply to employer activities in Canada. A court could distinguish employment activities in Canada from the facts in Spector on several factual basis: employment activities v. public accommodations, Canadian soil v. temporary docking in US waters, etc. Please keep in mind that I am not an attorney. I am merely a law student interested in the ADA. Also, I am not providing legal advice with this email. I am merely discussing legal issues. For legal advice, find a competent attorney. I hope this helps. Keith Vick -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces+keith-vick=msn.com at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces+keith-vick=msn.com at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:13 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] ADA from Canada? Good evening, I have to admit that living in Canada I am quite unfamiliar with the powers and jurisdiction of the ADA. Does the ADA assist individuals from other countries who are discriminated against by U.S. companies in the provision of services or employment? Thanks, Everett _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw/keith-vick%40msn.com From everett at zufelt.ca Thu Dec 4 01:28:09 2008 From: everett at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 21:28:09 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] ADA from Canada? References: <000701c8ed22$1059f120$0a02a8c0@everett704e491> Message-ID: <000801c955af$913817e0$0e02a8c0@everett704e491> Good evening Keith, Thanks for the information. With the ever increasing globalization of commerce and employment these issues are very important to be studied and discussed. I think that there are definitely pros to having a comprehensive disabillity statute like the ADA. However, one of the weaknesses is in the negotiations and compromises that come out of the process of creating the statute. In Canada we definitely have nothing as comprehensive as the ADA. Nevertheless, we do have general human rights statutes in each jurisdiction which incorporate disability as one of the grounds that cannot be discriminated against. A lot more work in some cases to prove that the general applies to the specific, however, less barriers in that we do not have specifics that "specifically" prevent actions in particular areas. Giving a bit of freedom to the courts to use reason in their application of the law, novel idea. We, at least in the jurisdictions I have studied, do not have a specific wording of "public accomodations" but more genearally "provision of services". That being said we have nothing that explicitly prevents information systems from being inaccessible to individuals with disabilities. Although it has never been tested, I imagine that "provision of services" would be extended to encompass Internet retail or service provision, that is if the issue wasn't privately settled first. Thanks, Everett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Vick" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:55 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA from Canada? > Hi, > > > > I realize that it has been awhile since this question was posed. The > reason > why I am answer this question with such a delay is that I went over a case > today and thought of the issue posed by Mr. Zufelt's question: does the > ADA > 'extend' to employer activities in Canada in the provision of services or > employment? > > > > I think the answer is a maybe. A recent case on this issues is Spector v. > Norwegian Cruise Lines, 125 S. Ct. 2169 (2005). In Spector some disabled > cruise passengers and their companions--alleging, among other matters, > that > physical barriers on two of the company's Bahamas-registered ships had > denied the disabled passengers access to various facilities. The Supreme > Court held that "[a]lthough, in some circumstances, a general statute will > not apply, absent a clear statement of congressional intent, to certain > aspects of the internal operations of foreign vessels temporarily in > United > States waters [nevertheless] [t]he cruise ships in question fell within > Title III's definitions of 'public accommodation' and 'specified public > transportation.'" (emphasis added). > > > > Hence, some parts of the ADA do apply to events occurring outside the > territory of United States. However, this does not mean that Title I > (employment) would likewise apply to employer activities in Canada. A > court > could distinguish employment activities in Canada from the facts in > Spector > on several factual basis: employment activities v. public accommodations, > Canadian soil v. temporary docking in US waters, etc. > > > > Please keep in mind that I am not an attorney. I am merely a law student > interested in the ADA. Also, I am not providing legal advice with this > email. I am merely discussing legal issues. For legal advice, find a > competent attorney. > > > > I hope this helps. > > > > Keith Vick > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces+keith-vick=msn.com at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces+keith-vick=msn.com at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of E.J. > Zufelt > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:13 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] ADA from Canada? > > > > Good evening, > > > > I have to admit that living in Canada I am quite unfamiliar with the > powers > and jurisdiction of the ADA. > > > > Does the ADA assist individuals from other countries who are discriminated > against by U.S. companies in the provision of services or employment? > > > > Thanks, > > Everett > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw/keith-vick%40msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zufelt.ca > From fairall at shellworld.net Thu Dec 4 01:45:13 2008 From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:45:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. bar recently In-Reply-To: <286047.77315.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <286047.77315.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike: A BrailleNote might be a good idea. Couldn't you request to use a laptop as a reasonable accommodation? Brailling your essay and reading on a cassette sounds like a hard way to go. If you used your BrailleNote or laptop, the testing facility could supply you with a flash drive or compact flash card to save your essays. From roddj12 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 4 01:58:12 2008 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:58:12 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. barrecently References: <286047.77315.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mike, you need to request for an exception, and suggest ways to make it secure. Some states allow for the laptop to be deposited night before for inspection. Rod Alcidonis Criminal Defense Clinic Student Attorney Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Gilmore" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. barrecently Hi Leslie, I thought about that. The packet specifically says no laptops. I guess they're afraid of people cheating or something. I did think about using my BrailleNote and hooking it up to a printer; but, they may consider it to be similar to a laptop. But, I guess we could say a braillewriter is a typewriter (on the request for accomodations form, it asks yes or no if the applicant is using a typewriter.) Mike --- On Wed, 12/3/08, Leslie Fairall wrote: From: Leslie Fairall Subject: Re: [blindlaw] question for those who have taken the D.C. bar recently To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 5:23 PM Hi Mike: Have you considered using a notetaker or laptop for the essay portion of the exam? _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/m_b_gilmore%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com From agrima at nbp.org Thu Dec 4 01:59:39 2008 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 19:59:39 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] NBP-Announce: Anna Dresner's 'It's Not on the Keyboard: Typing Special Characters and Foreign Languages in Word' Message-ID: It's Not on the Keyboard: Typing Special Characters and Foreign Languages in Word By Anna Dresner In braille, PortaBook, or ASCII Text, $5 Accents, the copyright symbol, the yen sign, diacritical marks, alphabets such as Cyrillic-if you use a screen reader or braille display and need to type characters that aren't on the standard keyboard, this booklet will help! This book covers the two scenarios in which you might want to type such characters: One, if you need to type things like the copyright symbol, the yen sign, or an e with an acute accent but are working primarily in English; and two, if you want to type in a language that uses many symbols that aren't on the standard keyboard or are in a completely different alphabet, and you want to have them all readily available on the keyboard. Author Anna Dresner also covers how to work in a foreign language, and offers helpful tips such as controlling the AutoCorrect feature and making shortcut keys for symbols. Check out the table of contents: http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/SPECIAL.html ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 20. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . _______________________________________________ Nbp mailing list Nbp at nbp.org PLEASE DO NOT respond to this message! It is an automated message and your query will not reach us. Send questions to orders at nbp.org . Visit us at http://www.nbp.org From JFreeh at nfb.org Thu Dec 4 02:30:47 2008 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 20:30:47 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?NFB=92s_Target_Lawsuit_Settlement_May_M?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ean_Money__for_You_=96_Check_out_www=2Enfbtargetlawsuit=2E?= =?iso-8859-1?q?com__now!?= Message-ID: NFB’s Target Lawsuit Settlement May Mean Money for You – Check out www.nfbtargetlawsuit.com now! Are you legally blind? Have you tried to access the goods or services on Target.com using screen-reader software while you were in the State of California at any time between February 7, 2003 and December 9, 2008? Did you have trouble using that Web site? If so, you are probably eligible to receive up to $7,000.00 from Target under terms of the settlement between that company and the National Federation of the Blind (NFB). However, you have to apply, and time is rapidly running out. To be eligible, you must fill out and submit a claim form by no later than January 8, 2009. There are two ways to get the claim form. The easiest way is to go to www.nfbtargetlawsuit.com. You will find the claim form, instructions, and other information. You may also request a claim form from: NFB v. Target Claims Administrator, RG2 Claims Administration LLC, P.O. Box 59479, Philadelphia, PA 19102-9479 (866-742-4955). There is still time for you to submit your claim. The form may be submitted online by January 8, 2009, or mailed to the address above, postmarked by that date. You do not have to be an NFB member to qualify. Jessica A. Freeh Public Relations Assistant NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 1800 Johnson Street Baltimore, Maryland 21230 Telephone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2348 E-mail: jfreeh at nfb.org From invite+20f0zs_6 at facebookmail.com Thu Dec 4 03:38:25 2008 From: invite+20f0zs_6 at facebookmail.com (Michael Steven Nunez) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 19:38:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile Message-ID: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> Hi blindlaw, I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile. Thanks, Michael To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r From womankind at earthlink.net Thu Dec 4 08:44:53 2008 From: womankind at earthlink.net (Stephanie Ortoleva) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 03:44:53 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> References: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to using face book with window eyes? Thanks, Stephanie Ortoleva At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: >Hi blindlaw, > >I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and >events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, >you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile. > >Thanks, >Michael > >To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: >http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40earthlink.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 4 10:30:55 2008 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 02:30:55 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: References: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: The Face book invitation that was posted to this group is one of the reasons why I haven't joined these types of web sites as they generate a lot of SPAM emails like this one that was posted to the group. There is also questions about how respectful these sites are regarding users privacy. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephanie Ortoleva" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen >reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to using >face book with window eyes? > Thanks, > Stephanie Ortoleva > At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: >>Hi blindlaw, >> >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you >>need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own >>profile. >> >>Thanks, >>Michael >> >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r >> >>_______________________________________________ >>blindlaw mailing list >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>blindlaw: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From chatter8712 at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 14:03:37 2008 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (Shane D) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:03:37 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Of Disrepute and Dysfunction at the Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind Message-ID: <7556b95a0812040603x497747e9s9d220abd835b52dc@mail.gmail.com> Hello Listers, I have enclosed a copy of an article from the Braille Monitor for December 2008 that deals with problems at the Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind in relation to puppy raisers and poor management. The puppy raisers, to make a lengthy story somewhat less lengthy, are refusing to return their dogs, based on the poor management and lack of any qualified staff to train the dogs for service to the blind. They are currently seaking legal representation to fight the case with the EDF. --- Lengthy Article Follows --- Of Disrepute and Dysfunction at the Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind by Daniel B. Frye ********** What would cause a committed core of volunteer puppy raisers working for the Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind (EDF), a guide dog training school based in Bakersfield, California, with training operations in Phoenix, Arizona, to engage in a collective act of civil disobedience, declining to return their animals for further training by the school? What extraordinary circumstances would cause these volunteers to fear for their lives and livelihoods and the safety of the puppies in their charge? Why would over 50 percent of the board of directors and three successive directors of training and their support teams terminate their association with this organization during the last two years? What administrative problems could cause potential students to wait over a year for an application for services, to be denied timely assistance managing their dogs' serious medical problems, or to be denied the opportunity to purchase something as simple as a replacement leash for a working EDF service animal? How is it that a multi-million-dollar foundation that appeals to the general public for funds to train guide dogs for the blind has not graduated a single human-dog team during the last year? And what reputable organization would be so insular in its operations that contact information for its governing body is not available on request and most communications from the school's own puppy-raising community, donors, and the media are fielded by legal counsel instead of by the executive director? The answers to these and other disturbing questions may be partially found in the long and sordid story of the Eye Dog Foundation's history and operations. Concerned members of the EDF volunteer puppy-raising community initially contacted the Braille Monitor about this story. After examining the facts, we concluded that the blind community, program volunteers, donors, and appropriate oversight authorities across America deserve to know about both the troubles and triumphs at EDF. In this way the interested parties may become aware of the school's past and make informed decisions about their association with it in the future. The details are complicated, but here is what we know. According to Joey Etienne, the court-appointed EDF receiver for much of 2007, the Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind, Incorporated, was founded by Lequita McKay in 1952 to breed and train guide dogs for the blind. McKay was apparently one of the earliest female attorneys licensed in California to specialize in high-profile wills, trusts, and estates. She apparently merged her passion for training guide dogs with her law practice, persuading many of her clients over twenty years or more to donate to or make generous bequests to EDF. By the middle to late 1960s, the EDF had amassed enough money to start training and placing guide dogs with blind handlers. Etienne said that, at some stage in the latter 1960s, McKay "somehow got crossways" with the California Board of Guide Dogs for the Blind (the board), the only governmental entity in the United States of its kind responsible for licensing guide dog trainers and regulating guide dog schools operating in the state. It is generally agreed that a settlement was reached between McKay's Eye Dog Foundation and the board in about 1967 in which the board relinquished regulatory jurisdiction over EDF in exchange for McKay's commitment not to raise funds for EDF in California and to train guide dogs outside the state. The school's corporate status and headquarters, however, were permitted to remain registered in California. The EDF's work appears to have continued without public incident for the next thirty-seven years or so. We talked with several current EDF consumers, and, while Patricia Kepler and Petra Janes are presently disappointed with various aspects of recent interactions with school personnel, both report being generally satisfied with the quality of the guide dogs they have received over the years. During this extended period of peace, a number of cultural patterns of EDF's governance and day-to-day management emerged that foreshadowed trouble and perhaps even enabled some of the more overt instances of chicanery that have occurred in recent years. From 1967 through 1988, when the EDF purchased its training campus in south Phoenix, Arizona, the school remained a small concern compared to major guide dog schools elsewhere in the country. In 1988 EDF abandoned its practice of providing in-home training for a few students, and started offering a more conventional course of study to guide dog classes at its newly acquired property in Phoenix. According to Patrick Frase, EDF assistant executive director for about two years before affairs at EDF began to unravel in 2006, the school's small size and low public profile gave McKay an inordinate amount of control. Frase explained that McKay manipulated the composition of the EDF board so that it consisted of longtime friends and members of her family. He reported that customary and transparent business practices such as preparing annual reports and maintaining consistent meeting minutes did not regularly occur. Frase confirmed that, with the approval of her board, McKay sat on the EDF board while drawing an annual salary of between $86,000 and $89,000 as the organization's executive director. Frase said he believes McKay may have used EDF for "suspicious if not illegal personal tax advantages," and he reported that "red flags" were raised for him when he saw how much money was spent, considering the small number of dogs trained and graduated during his tenure. The Braille Monitor has also learned from Wendy Wonderley, a former EDF board member who ultimately resigned as a casualty of the organizational uproar soon to be described, that under McKay's leadership, retiring employees of the school (namely McKay herself; Ruby Bell, McKay's sister; and Lucille Gibbons, a longtime McKay friend until the 2006 split) were entitled to receive generous fringe benefits, including proceeds from a "profit-sharing account," comprehensive medical coverage, and a lump sum bonus equivalent to one half of their annual salaries. Wonderley commented that this was an irresponsible fiscal policy for an organization the size of Eye Dog Foundation (presently valued at somewhere between $7 and $10 million) to adopt. Despite these allegations of wrong-doing and corruption, Frase emphasized that he believes that McKay genuinely wanted to be of help to blind people through the training of high-quality guide dogs, and he believes that it was her positive motivation that allowed her to function unscathed and unmasked at EDF during her fifty-five-year association with the school. Mr. Frase's employment with EDF was ultimately terminated because of his irreconcilable differences with McKay. Wendy Wonderley confirmed, in terms more vague than those of Mr. Frase, her feeling that McKay exercised an unusual degree of control over EDF, but she too believes that McKay was sincerely committed to the mission of the school. Wonderley put it succinctly when she said, "Lequita was a benign dictator." McKay's reign at Eye Dog Foundation seems to have come to an unceremonious end during the autumn of 2006. According to Wendy Wonderley, a series of rapid-fire EDF board transactions and legal skirmishes in the Kern County Superior Court between the two factions of the school's board of directors over the next twelve months resulted in Gwen Brown's wresting control of the EDF board and the organization's executive directorship from McKay and those loyal to her. Since the division on the EDF board and the ensuing struggle for power were the genesis of the most recent round of troubles, we will provide a brief chronology of events from September 2006 through September 2007. The following timeline has been provided largely by Wendy Wonderley, but important dates have been confirmed by Joey Etienne and supporting court documents. We also contacted Gwen Brown by telephone, but she declined to be interviewed. Instead she wanted to talk only about who prompted our decision to report this story before abruptly terminating the telephone conversation. We repeatedly requested in writing an interview with Ms. Brown through her legal counsel in California and Arizona. On October 27 H. Steven Schiffres of Rosoff, Schiffres, and Barta, general California counsel for the EDF, responded to an October 20 Braille Monitor request for an interview, which listed potential interview topics with Brown but did not ask specific questions or present evidence for comment as would have been the case in an actual written interview. In his letter Mr. Schiffres refused the interview and made few substantive statements, noting that the Braille Monitor's October 20 inquiry did not offer details and documentary evidence inviting a thorough response. Since our letter had been only an invitation for an interview and not a written set of interrogatories, his statement was technically correct. Nevertheless, his statements will be included in this article when they are responsive to claims critical of EDF and Brown. Finally, a statement from John D. Clark Jr., EDF's legal counsel in Arizona, was submitted to the Braille Monitor for publication. Apparently Clark has been employed to represent EDF only in its effort to recover the dogs currently being housed by EDF volunteer puppy raisers. Clark's statement is printed in full elsewhere in this article. On September 23, 2006, both Gwen Brown, now executive director and chairperson of the EDF board, and Wendy Wonderley were named to the EDF board. Michael Hannon is a member of that board and an attorney licensed in California. Several sources report that Hannon is Brown's spouse and Wonderley said that Hannon nominated Brown to the school's board. According to Wonderley, Brown received the support of all EDF board members except McKay, who reportedly warned her colleagues that Brown's appointment would be disastrous for EDF. Wonderley said that in retrospect she regrets her support of Brown's nomination to the board. Wonderley said that on October 8, 2006, Brown called an emergency board meeting. It is undisputed that at this meeting McKay resigned as EDF executive director, but the parties differ about whether McKay's resignation of her paid position included resignation from the school's board. According to Schiffres's October 27 letter, the Brown faction of the EDF board (Gwen Brown, Michael Hannon, and Lucille Gibbons) believed that McKay resigned from both the executive directorship and her board position; the McKay faction (Lequita McKay, Wendy Wonderley, and Louis Harris) understood McKay to have resigned only her position as executive director, while retaining her voting seat on the board. On October 21, 2006, the EDF board held another meeting, in which four new board members were nominated, but none were elected because the board was deadlocked. Squabbling continued about whether McKay had the right to exercise her vote as an EDF board member. Wonderley reports that the McKay faction then filed a lawsuit against EDF and the members of the Brown faction over whether McKay continued to hold a seat on the EDF board, since a three-to-three split prevented governance of the organization. Wonderley said that the McKay faction asked the judge to dissolve the Foundation and to transfer its assets to Guiding Eyes for the Blind in New York. On November 17, 2006, yet another EDF board meeting was convened, but Ms. Wonderley said that she was not given notice of this gathering. She says that, to support her and to deny the Brown faction a quorum, McKay and Harris refused to attend this meeting. Wonderley said that during this meeting she was voted off the board and that Brown was confirmed as EDF's executive director. Naturally the McKay faction dismissed the actions of the November 17 board meeting as illegal since a quorum was not present. The McKay faction tried to overturn the decisions ratified at the November 17 meeting in their lawsuit. On December 21, 2006, the McKay faction of the EDF board filed an ex parte application for appointment of receivership to neutralize the Brown faction, who were making day-to-day decisions about the operation of the school. A hearing before Judge Louis P. Etcheverry of the Kern County Superior Court was scheduled for January 31, 2007. According to Wonderley, failure of legal counsel for the Brown faction to file responses caused the hearing to be continued to February 8. On February 8 Judge Etcheverry issued an Order for Appointment of Receiver and Preliminary Injunction in favor of the requests that the McKay faction had made to the court. In summary Judge Etcheverry ruled that McKay's retirement as executive director did not operate to remove her from the EDF board. The judge also confirmed the composition of the EDF board, which included Wonderley as a board member, repudiating the EDF board's actions of November 17, 2006. Finally, Judge Etcheverry placed EDF in the hands of a receiver to evaluate what was needed to make the organization functional. On February 21, 2007, Judge Etcheverry signed the official order appointing Joey Etienne as EDF receiver. Wonderley reports that on the same day Brown attempted to convene another EDF board meeting at which she asserted her entitlement to a salary as executive director. Wonderley says that she was again not given notice of this meeting. Receiver Etienne confirms that he had to suspend Brown's EDF salary during the organization's receivership. Etienne submitted his recommendations to the court on the future of EDF on May 8, 2007. He recommended that the organization headquartered in California be dissolved and that its assets be transferred to the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona created by McKay to manage some minor school matters, which for all practical purposes existed on paper and had performed few actual services. Because of the deadlocked board Etienne suggested that a diverse group of Arizona advisors work with a nonprofit manager to create a new board and establish a reconstituted foundation within the existing framework of the articles of incorporation and bylaws of the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona. Finally, he recommended that he oversee the EDF dissolution until a smooth transition to the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona could be achieved. On May 16, 2007, Judge Etcheverry entered a default judgment in favor of the McKay faction of the EDF board. On June 11 the receiver's report was accepted, but for reasons that remain unclear the case was transferred to Judge Palmer of the Kern County Superior Court. Taking the opportunity to persuade a different judge before Judge Etcheverry's default judgment was officially registered, counsel for the Brown faction successfully argued before Judge Palmer on July 11, 2007, to have the original default judgment set aside. Several days later, on July 20, McKay unexpectedly died. Following McKay's death, the substantive grounds for the original lawsuit no longer existed, so the impasse on the EDF board was broken. In view of these developments, Judge Palmer directed the parties to settle at a hearing on August 16. The court directed that the settlement should relieve the receiver of his duties at a hearing on September 6 and that control of the foundation should be passed back to the school's board. The board was directed to replace McKay on the board in accordance with EDF's bylaws. It appears that an unusual set of circumstances conspired to snatch a legal victory on the merits of the case from the McKay faction of the EDF board. Wonderley reports that the Brown faction quickly capitalized on these developments and scheduled a board meeting for September 25. A quorum was present. The EDF board moved to reinstate Brown as the school's executive director, affirming its confidence in her by ratifying all the actions she had tried to take during the past year. Jerome Washington and Christopher Uboma, candidates supportive of Brown, were elected to the board. Persuaded that she could no longer provide accountable oversight for EDF and not wanting to be responsible for future decisions taken by the Brown-dominated board, Wonderley tendered her resignation at the conclusion of the September 25 meeting. In reviewing Brown's performance as EDF's executive director, we have learned that three successive directors of training and most of their support staff have left the school since September 2007. Manny Gonzales, EDF director of training from February 11, 2006 to September 5, 2007, said that he left a job and program he loved because of the micromanaging harassment he received at Brown's hands. Specifically he said, "Gwen was disrespectful of staff. She made unfounded and outlandish accusations towards us. She was ignorant when it came to knowledge of guide dog practices. She had no experience in assessing the O&M skills of blind people, but she'd regularly presume to intercept and divert applications from students. You couldn't reason with her; you couldn't talk to her." Gonzales is a certified guide dog trainer through the state of California, and he has a degree from New Zealand's Massey University in orientation and mobility. Without exception, everybody with whom we spoke for this story praised Gonzales's competence as a guide dog trainer. In concluding his interview with us, Gonzales said, "Any self-respecting guide dog trainer with any sense would now not remain at Eye Dog Foundation. What's happening under Gwen Brown's leadership is a shame." Patti Savage, a respected puppy coordinator with EDF from September 2004 through November 2006, grew weary of working for Brown almost ten months before Gonzales decided to leave. Among Savage's grievances against Brown were allegations that the acting executive director interfered with her professional judgment to take dogs in her care for special medical treatment and that staff were regularly required to dip into their own pockets for operating cash because Brown would not provide the needed funds. During the almost four months following Gonzales's departure, EDF had no director of training, certified or otherwise. In the weeks after his departure, Barbara Kuhns, EDF office administrator hired in July 2007 by the receiver, and Paula Brown, EDF puppy coordinator, both left their jobs and temporarily shut the Phoenix facility down. Kuhns said, "For the last month of our employment, Paula and I would leave work together for fear of our safety. Gwen was intimidating and created a threatening environment. She regularly would tell Manny that she had somebody watching him." According to Kuhns, both she and Savage left EDF still owed some back pay. Representatives from the EDF volunteer puppy-raiser community told the Braille Monitor that during this period they received little to no communication from Brown about what was happening and that all puppy raiser classes were suspended without notice. Bryan Young was hired to replace Gonzales as director of training on December 15, 2007. While not certified as a guide dog trainer by California, Young brought considerable experience, having worked for EDF for several years in the middle 90s and with several other schools, including Leader Dogs in Rochester Hills, Michigan. Young reported that problems existed for him and the school from the beginning of his EDF employment. He said that his pay was often late, sometimes issued on personal EDF checks and occasionally on more conventional payroll checks. He also reported irregularities with the deduction of state and Social Security taxes from his pay. Finally, Young says that he has still not been paid for almost two weeks of work following his abrupt decision to resign on July 4, 2008. Above and beyond these issues, Young told us that Brown tried to micromanage the school, second guessing and failing to act on his recommendations to release animals not suitable as guide dogs and refusing to forward student applications to him when advised that dogs were almost ready for placement. Additionally, Young said that Brown created operational difficulties and safety hazards at the school when she took actions, including canceling dog food deliveries to the campus and terminating the school's cell phone services, which jeopardized the over- heating alarm systems in the vans used to transport dogs for off-campus training. Young explained that he ultimately spent his personal funds to purchase food for the animals in his care. Both Young and Kuhns told us that bills from many creditors were paid late or not at all. Counsel for Brown and EDF counter that significant administrative disruptions occurred because of a delay in moving accounts back to the control of EDF from the receiver, which may have resulted in some bills being paid late. EDF counsel states that all creditors have been made whole at this stage or that payments have intentionally not been honored for cause, including breach of contract or nonperformance. Young says that he is continuing to try to resolve his pay dispute with EDF, and Wonderley says that EDF officials are declining to pay McKay's estate her retirement entitlement. According to Young, as executive director Brown cultivated a terrible and intimidating relationship with the staff. He said that Brown called Michelle Tenny, puppy raiser coordinator under his charge, at all hours of the night to let her know "just how replaceable" she was. Finally he reported that at one stage during his seven-month employment he was approached by a representative of a company who told him that Brown had hired his firm to install surveillance equipment on campus. According to Young, the company representative ultimately said that ethically he couldn't be part of this bizarre assignment and left the property without finishing the job. According to Young, in April 2008 Executive Director Brown hired Doug Hunter as Young's supervisor. This relationship was short-lived, though, because Hunter remained on staff for less than ten days. Young said that Hunter told him, while being driven to the airport, that he didn't know if he'd ever come back and that he couldn't get a commitment in writing from Brown about the terms of his employment. Young and Tenny both abruptly resigned their positions with EDF on Friday, July 4, 2008, when, as Young tells it, Brown was unresponsive to his repeated requests for authorization to have an EDF dog receive emergency medical care, which ultimately required surgery. Exasperated and bewildered by the oppressive and hostile environment that Brown created, Young said that he and Tenny "had simply put up with enough." In preparing to close the Phoenix property for the second time in less than a year in the absence of staff to operate it, Young told the Braille Monitor that he contacted the volunteer puppy raisers whose dogs were in the school's kennel to come and collect the animals for safe keeping until new staff could be identified. In early August Brown hired Dexter Morin as EDF director of training. Since Morin resigned his position on October 5, just as this story was coming to our attention, we did not have an opportunity to interview him. According to DaCoda Whittemore, EDF assistant guide dog trainer and facilities manager from August 12 to August 26, 2008, and several of the school's volunteer puppy raisers, Morin, in his early twenties, was recruited from Noah's Assistance Dogs in Crete, Nebraska, where he had helped to train perhaps a handful of dogs. Ruth Dutton, an EDF volunteer puppy trainer, told us that she had been in contact with Morin's former supervisor, Mike Renner, after being alarmed at Morin's lack of experience, and was advised that he was dedicated to the profession but was by no means ready to assume the responsibilities of a lead guide dog trainer. Mike Renner, director of Noah's Assistance Dogs, told the Braille Monitor that in fact Morin was associated with his program briefly through the AmeriCorps Program, but, when funding for this position was terminated, Mr. Morin continued with the school as a volunteer. Mr. Renner confirmed that "it would be quite a stretch" to expect Morin to function as director of training for any reputable guide dog training facility. Denise Warner was hired as Morin's puppy coordinator, and she remains employed at EDF at this writing. Whittemore's description of her brief tenure at EDF mirrors the pattern of discontent and concern expressed by Gonzales and Young. "Despite having eight years of experience in the field of animal behavior science, it became apparent that I was not going to be allowed to do anything. I would fax ideas for on-campus improvements, but my communications were ignored. I was told that I could not discuss anything about internal operations at Eye Dog Foundation with anybody. I saw no generation or meaningful preparation of working dogs at all while I was at Eye Dog Foundation. I would caution those in the public about contributing to this school without finding out what their money is really being used for. I decided to leave this part-time job and pay full-time attention to my own business." In response to the concerns of the volunteer puppy-raiser community and others about the organization's ability to retain qualified staff, counsel for EDF concede in their letter of October 27, 2008, that retaining professional personnel is a difficult task. They further acknowledge that "some turnover" in staff has occurred during the past year, but counsel contends that the EDF board strive to identify qualified staff and that currently no key positions are not staffed by competent individuals. This claim is hard to accept since the only staff present at the Phoenix property when we tried to tour the facility on Thursday, October 16, 2008, was Denise Warner, puppy coordinator formerly under Morin, and a man called Rick, who described himself as a grounds caretaker without any professional background with service animals. We are unclear whether Warner's role has changed since Morin's departure; she did claim to be qualified to train guide dogs during the brief over-the-fence conversation we had with her. Despite the invitation on the EDF Website to visit the campus, the staff refused us admittance to the Phoenix property for a tour and instead referred us to Brown in California to arrange any future visits. [PHOTO/CAPTION: Puppy raiser Wallace Swerkes and his dog Kaiser] [PHOTO/CAPTION: Puppy raiser Alice Wies and Litta] EDF has a devoted and passionate volunteer puppy-raiser community of almost fifty people (spouses and family members included) working with between twenty-four and twenty-nine dogs, who could potentially be trained as guide dogs at the school. A puppy raiser agrees to raise a puppy for a guide dog training facility for the first eighteen to twenty-four months of its life, working on socializing and other basic skills before returning it to the school for formal training. Those who undertake this investment of time, love, and money are special and committed people who genuinely care about animals and are dedicated to having their dogs matched with a blind dog handler. In investigating this story, we met with puppy raisers of at least eleven EDF dogs. All of these puppy raisers expressed an abiding desire to raise their dogs to fulfill their mission as guides for blind people. Despite (or perhaps because of) this common commitment, all eleven sets of puppy raisers are resolved not to return their assigned animals to EDF while they believe the school is unable to train adequately or care safely for the dogs. Each of these puppy raisers has a compelling personal story of deceit or promises broken by the EDF administration, but the bottom line for each is that each is unwilling to jeopardize his or her investment of time, energy, love, and money by returning a dog to what they believe is an unsafe and unproductive situation. If circumstances were better at Eye Dog Foundation or if alternative arrangements for the welfare and training of the animals could be arranged, each puppy raiser told us that he or she would gladly relinquish the animal for an objective evaluation and possible successful training as a guide dog. [PHOTO/CAPTION: Former EDF office administrator and volunteer puppy raiser, Barbara Kuhns] Anna Thomasson, Diana Anderson, Gail Stouthamer, and Barbara Kuhns have voluntarily assumed leadership on behalf of almost all the EDF puppy raisers. They told the Braille Monitor that EDF puppy raisers were left to manage the training of their dogs on their own for the almost four-month period between the resignation of Gonzales and the hiring of Young in late 2007. They report that the administration gave them no notice of this staff transition nor any direction about how they were to care for and train their animals in the interim. Despite being alarmed by this development, they all agreed to resume the bimonthly puppy raiser classes with Young once he started working for EDF. In addition to the extended interruption in support from EDF during the autumn of 2007, puppy raisers identified other general concerns during 2008, including frustration that trainer recommendations for release of dogs deemed unsuitable to guide were not honored expeditiously, worries that the school was not placing ready dogs with blind candidates, doubts about the school's ability to care for its animals safely, anger that EDF stopped providing regular heartworm and tick medications for the animals, reservations about the low morale and stress of EDF training staff as a result of their work environment, and annoyance at Executive Director Brown's refusal to communicate regularly with them about their grievances. Following a January 2008 meeting in which Brown did come to Phoenix to meet with the closely bonded community of EDF puppy raisers, she has been unwilling to meet with them again, despite written requests that she do so. After Young resigned as director of training in July 2008 and Brown hired the unqualified Morin to take charge of the program, most of the puppy raisers decided to stop attending puppy training classes because the classes would not be effective and could be harmful to the animals. Even so, puppy raisers continued to request a meeting with Brown to address the deteriorating safety and training at the school. They say that their requests were met with silence. In early October John Clark, an Arizona attorney that Brown hired to secure the return of the EDF dogs, started issuing demand letters to most members of the school's puppy-raiser community, threatening legal action if the dogs were not returned in five days. Barbara Kuhns points out that the capacity of the EDF kennels is about twenty, so, if everybody complied with the request, the school would be unable to care for all of the dogs. At or about the same time, Morin resigned his position as EDF director of training, leaving only Denise Warner on campus to care for the dogs. In his October 5 letter of resignation, Morin advised Brown that he was turning over the remaining dogs (there were only two or three on campus at the time) to the puppy raisers since Denise was not at the campus when he decided to leave. Despite Morin's explanation of this action (an action that previous trainers had taken when they terminated their EDF employment), Thomasson and Anderson told us that Brown filed a police report alleging that the dogs had been stolen from the property. Following is the text of the demand letter that Clark sent to Anna Thomasson on behalf of EDF. Since most of the letters were similar, we print this one mostly to show the tone that the EDF adopted toward its volunteers. In response we print a representative reply to a similar demand letter from puppy raiser Gillian Roberts addressed to the EDF's executive director, which clearly articulates the primary points that all of the puppy raisers are making: ********** VIA CERTIFIED MAIL RETURN RECEIPT AND REGULAR MAIL Anna Thomasson Re: The Eye Dog Foundation Puppy Named Nisha Dear Ms. Thomasson: I represent the Eye Dog Foundation (the "Foundation"). Pursuant to the Puppy Raiser Agreement dated January 20, 2007, you were to provide foster care for Nisha. A copy of the Agreement is enclosed. The Agreement clearly provides that Nisha is the property of the Foundation. Further, in signing this bailment agreement, you undertook certain obligations with respect to the puppy and the Foundation. I understand that you have breached at least two parts of this Agreement. You have not followed the instructions of the staff, and you have not attended all the Training Classes. DEMAND IS HEREBY MADE that you immediately return Nisha to the Foundation at its office at 8252 South 15th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85041. If you cannot provide transportation for Nisha, call Dexter Morin or Denise Warner at (602) 276-0051 to arrange transportation. Please be aware that you have a fiduciary duty to the Foundation. Breach of that duty, such as by attempting to convert the dog to your ownership or as conspiring with others to deprive the Foundation of its property, could subject you to legal liability. You are also directed to return any of the Foundation's equipment that you borrowed. Nisha and the equipment must be returned within, at the most, five (5) days from the date of this letter to avoid any further proceedings. If you have any questions regarding this demand letter, please write me at the address set forth above. Do not discuss your concerns with Dexter Morin or Denise Warner. Very truly yours, John D. Clark Enclosure ************ [PHOTO/CAPTION: Puppy raiser Gillian Roberts and her dog Noni] October 4, 2008 Ms. Gwen Brown Executive Director, Eye Dog Foundation VIA CERTIFIED MAIL RETURN RECEIPT AND REGULAR MAIL Dear Ms. Brown: I am writing as Noni's puppy raiser to notify you that the Eye Dog Foundation (EDF) is in breach of its puppy raiser agreement with me. Further, it has become clear from recent actions by EDF and its staff that EDF cannot currently ensure the safety of the animals under its care. I provide a remedy acceptable to me at the end of this letter. I would point out that I am an experienced puppy raiser, having in the past raised dogs for both Canine Companions for Independence and Guide Dogs for the Blind, both well established and well respected organizations. Here are the facts to support my concerns with EDF: First: I believe that EDF with its currently constituted board of directors and staff is unable or unwilling to fulfill its publicly stated mission of being "dedicated to giving guide dogs to the blind and visually impaired at absolutely no cost to them" < http://www.eyedogfoundation.org>. This mission is also a commitment to the volunteer puppy raisers who pour love, time, and significant money into the care and preparation of a puppy that they believe will be destined for that career. EDF has not graduated a single guide dog team in more than a year, despite the fact that in the spring of 2008 there were several dogs in the kennel ready to be teamed and clients available for them. Second: EDF has been unable to retain qualified guide dog trainers. In thirteen months, there has been complete turnover of training center staff twice. This includes the loss of three fully-qualified guide dog trainers. The staff currently at the training center is not qualified by any measure recognized within the guide dog industry to be training these dogs and is therefore not competent to run a program that will produce guide dogs that can be safely placed with visually impaired partners. Third: The puppy raiser agreement requires me to attend classes once per month. This implies that EDF will provide those classes and further that those classes will be conducted by qualified trainers. From mid- September 2007 to early March 2008, almost six months, EDF failed to provide classes for the dogs. During the first four months of this period, at considerable inconvenience to my husband and me, I continued with Noni's training, including sessions with a number of professional trainers. At any time that EDF has offered classes, I have eagerly attended in accordance with our agreement and only missed class for valid reasons. I attended two sessions with the new staff, during which my only contact was with Denise Warner, puppy coordinator. It was apparent in those sessions that Ms. Warner had absolutely no background with service dogs and no understanding of appropriate training methods. Given that experience, I believe that continuing training with Ms. Warner would be detrimental to Noni's development as a guide dog. Fourth: EDF has signaled that it intends to unilaterally redefine what constitutes a release of a dog. In the past, and as understood by the current puppy raisers, the (qualified) director of training determined whether a dog was to be released from the program. Despite this understanding, which is reinforced by consistent past practice and acknowledged by you, Ms. Brown, some of the puppy raisers have been told that the rules have changed and that now you, Ms. Brown, and/or the board must decide whether a dog is to be released from the program. Not only is it impermissible to unilaterally change the terms of our agreement, but in addition, to the knowledge of the puppy raisers, neither you, Ms. Brown, nor any member of the board has the training that would qualify you or them to determine whether a dog should be released from, or retained, in the program. EDF has given clear indication that it does not intend to honor its contractual obligation to allow puppy raisers the option to adopt the dog they raised if ultimately someone (qualified or not) determines their dog will be released from the program. My agreement states that "if the puppy needs to have a career change, the first priority will be to place it with an appropriate service organization. Second priority will be to place the puppy with original raiser at no cost." In a meeting with approximately thirty puppy raisers on January 12, 2008, you, Ms. Brown, affirmed our understanding that we would have first rights to our dogs if they are released from the program. When we asked for clarification of the puppy raiser agreement regarding the potential placement with "an appropriate service organization," you, Ms. Brown, once again assured us that historically dogs have not been placed with other service organizations, and they would be returned to us if they are released. Recent past conduct underscores EDF's new resistance to returning released dogs to their puppy raisers. In mid-February, the former director of training, Bryan Young, signaled that a number of dogs were to be released from the program, yet four of those dogs were kept in EDF's kennels for almost five months--until July 5--when they finally were returned to puppy raiser homes. For EDF to direct that these highly intelligent dogs, raised in family homes and accustomed to daily socialization, not be returned to puppy raiser homes and instead be kept in a kennel after no longer being deemed suitable for guide work is unconscionable and demonstrates a lack of intent to fulfill EDF's contractual obligation to puppy raisers. Fifth: It has become clear that the staff at the training center does not have the experience to control the dogs in their care. I know of one recent incident in which one of the dogs at the center was sufficiently injured in a dog fight to require veterinary care. From the information I have, it is clear that staff inexperience was a major contributing factor. I could not conscionably return Noni to an unsafe environment, nor do I believe I would be legally required to do so. Sixth: On July 5, 2008, EDF abandoned Noni. She was boarding at the training center, one of twelve dogs present, when the training staff resigned and the center abruptly closed down. You, Ms. Brown, had cancelled food orders for the center on June 30 when the center was out of food, possibly leaving the dogs, both boarders and dogs which had been returned to EDF, to starve. It was up to the training staff, acting on their own and concerned for the dogs' welfare, to purchase food and arrange for care for them, including one dog which required emergency life-saving surgery. We were out of state and had to rely on two other puppy raisers to care for her until we could return. I am committed absolutely to Noni's fulfilling her mission as a guide dog. This is why I became involved in the program at EDF. However, I no longer believe that EDF can deliver on its commitments, and, perhaps more importantly, EDF cannot ensure her safety. To resolve this, I request that EDF release Noni to a nationally recognized guide dog organization, or to me on the understanding that I will make due diligence to donate her (with no benefit to me) to an appropriate service dog organization. In either case I will assume the cost and responsibility of delivering her to that organization. ************ Sincerely, Gillian Roberts CC: Mr. John D. Clark, Jr, Attorney at Law ************ Finally, in accordance with a commitment to Clark and the EDF, we print the following statement from the school about the puppy raisers' failure to honor the demand letters. Here it is: ********** 1. The Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind is a nonprofit California corporation that was established, as the name suggests, to provide guide dogs for the blind. It is authorized to operate in Arizona. 2. The Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind owns more than twenty-five puppies that were placed under bailment contracts with parties who were to raise the puppies, i.e., puppy raisers. 3. Each of the Contracts clearly states that each of the dogs belong to the Foundation, and gives no ownership rights whatsoever to any of the puppy raisers. The puppy raisers merely had the right to raise these puppies. 4. The Contract also stipulates that the puppy raisers were required to comply with the Foundation's directives regarding the puppies. 5. Last week the Foundation directed each of the puppy raisers in writing to return the Foundation's puppies to the Foundation within five days. 6. It now appears that the puppy raisers are refusing to comply with the Foundation's directive to return the Foundation's puppies. 7. The puppy raisers are apparently attempting to raise a number of specious issues to divert attention away from their clear breaches of the bailment contracts. None of these issues give the puppy raisers the right to deprive the Foundation of its puppies, which is what the puppy raisers are apparently attempting to do. ********** Seemingly backed into a corner and with no access to legal representation to fight against this multimillion dollar organization, the EDF puppy raisers contacted the offices of the Attorneys General in both Arizona and California. Receiving no satisfactory response from these authorities, they then approached the Braille Monitor and the local ABC affiliate in Phoenix to register their concerns and to attract attention to the issues occurring at the school. Following is the text of the story found on the Website of the local ABC affiliate in Phoenix that accompanied the brief video spot that was also produced and aired in early October: ********** A custody battle is brewing over twenty-five "service dogs in training" in the Phoenix area. The future service animals are owned by the Eye Dog Foundation for the Blind, a California-based nonprofit group that operates a training center in Phoenix. But a large group of volunteers, foster families that agreed to help raise the dogs, are refusing to return them. [PHOTO/CAPTION: Puppy raiser Dianna Anderson and her dog Kensi] "I couldn't feel comfortable handing this dog back to a foundation that is not functioning and feel good about it," Diana Anderson said. Anderson and twenty-five other volunteers entered into agreements with the foundation to provide the dogs a home and bring them to training sessions at the foundation's facility in south Phoenix. The goal of the foundation is to train the dogs and then place them with the blind. But volunteers like Eldon Ploetz say the foundation is in shambles, that dogs are not receiving the necessary training, and they claim not a single dog has been placed with a blind person in more than a year. Ploetz and his wife have helped raise and foster Kiesha, a German shepherd. In late September Ploetz received a letter from the Eye Dog Foundation's attorney stating, "DEMAND IS HEREBY MADE that you immediately return Kiesha to the Foundation." The letter continues, "I understand that you have breached at least two parts of this Agreement. You have not followed the instructions of the staff, and you have not attended all the Training Classes." Other volunteers received similar letters. But the volunteers claim the trainers are not properly certified, and the ones that have been hired have not stayed on with the foundation. Additionally, they say the Foundation had been shut down for weeks and they have neglected the dogs. "We understand they cut off the food for the dogs that were in the kennel," Ploetz said. Ploetz's wife said she would rather go to jail than give Kiesha back to the foundation. "They are valid concerns," said DaCoda Whittemore, a former operations manager who worked at the foundation's training facility for only a week. Whittemore said the dogs are "absolutely" receiving better care with the foster families, "not just because the management isn't functioning properly, but there's no staff qualified at the foundation at this point to be able to take and care for these dogs properly." Dexter Morin, a former trainer at the facility, agreed with Whittemore, submitting his resignation earlier this month. Before leaving, Morin turned over several dogs to the foster families rather than leaving them alone at the training facility. In his resignation letter, Morin wrote, "I contacted the puppy raisers to inform them of my concerns of leaving the dogs on the premises without the guarantee that they would be attended to." Morin goes on to say, "I in good conscience turned them over to the puppy raisers for the safe keeping of the dogs." The Eye Dog Foundation and its attorney have declined our repeated requests for an on-camera interview. In a statement to ABC 15, the Foundation's attorney, John D. Clark, wrote, "The contract clearly states that each of the dogs belong to the Foundation, and gives no ownership rights whatsoever to any of the puppy raisers." The letter goes on to state that "the Foundation directed each of the puppy raisers in writing to return the Foundation's puppies to the Foundation within five days. It now appears that the puppy raisers are refusing to comply with the Foundation's directive." ********** There you have the ABC story. In an effort to resolve the impasse amicably, EDF puppy-raiser leaders Anna Thomasson and Gail Stouthamer initiated a dialogue with Clark to find a solution to the custody problem acceptable to all parties. Among the suggestions that the puppy raisers offered were to turn the dogs over to a functioning guide dog school equipped to evaluate and train the dogs for guiding service if appropriate. Optimism about resolution of this matter was briefly high among the puppy raisers following signs of good-faith conversations with Clark, but he abruptly ended the settlement talks after receiving a request from the Braille Monitor to interview his client for this story. No further progress on resolving the standoff between concerned puppy raisers and the foundation has been realized since Clark's retaliatory measures against the puppy raisers for their decision to alert the Braille Monitor to this story. Afraid of the financial and legal liability that they will all face as a result of their collective decision to engage in this act of civil disobedience in support of producing high-quality guide dogs for blind consumers and for the welfare of the animals themselves, puppy-raiser leaders say that they are nevertheless resolved to do the right thing on principle. The puppy raisers are looking for legal representation, but to date they have been unsuccessful in finding counsel willing to advocate for them pro bono. Throughout this long ordeal some EDF puppy raisers have reported feeling varying degrees of intimidation from and fear of Gwen Brown. Thomasson, for instance, received several unidentified cell phone calls on October 7, 2008, in which the caller, who Thomasson believes to have been Brown, said, "Ok, Anna Thomasson. It's me and you, me and you and Barbara Kuhns. We're going to go for it, okay? Me and you--you and me, okay?" Later this same week Thomasson received an anonymous large envelope in the mail which contained letters addressed to Gwen Brown that had been resealed with tape. Another puppy raiser, who had initially agreed to be interviewed for this story, called to insist that his name not be used for fear that Brown or one of her "operatives" would somehow harm his family or the dog that he had raised. Several sources for this story also report having had conversations with Brown in which she has made threatening comments like, "I can't wait until the Lord makes my enemies my footstools" and other vague but pointed remarks. Finally, Anderson told the Braille Monitor that she was quite disturbed when Brown ended an unpleasant telephone conversation with her with the comment, "Oh, so you have children, do you?" Several EDF consumers told the Braille Monitor of instances of nonresponsive or insensitive treatment at Brown's hands. Patricia Kepler of Oregon said that Brown was unresponsive to the fact that her dog had been injured on public transportation, and she explained that her dog was offered no retraining or post-accident evaluation services. Instead, Robert Torence of the Seeing Eye generously came out to help her work with her dog. She says that both the Seeing Eye and Guide Dogs for the Blind have been invaluable to EDF consumers since the school has essentially stopped functioning. She also cited an instance in which Brown told her simply to go to Pet Smart when she needed a replacement leash for her guide dog. "Of course any responsible administrator of a reputable guide dog school knows better than to recommend that a student use a pet leash for the taxing work that a service animal performs," Kepler said. Finally, Veronica Elsea of California told the Braille Monitor that she has been trying to get a guide dog from EDF since July 2007, and she reports having received the application only within the last few weeks. The final facet of this story involves allegations that Gwen Brown, on behalf of EDF, attempted to make or made inappropriate withdrawals from EDF of California and EDF of Arizona bank accounts. As previously reported, Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona was a distinct entity from Eye Dog Foundation of California that existed largely to manage minor Arizona-related matters for the school. According to Eldon Ploetz, EDF puppy raiser and treasurer of the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona, Brown was never a member of the governing board or a financial signatory on bank records of this small Arizona entity. Ploetz accuses Brown of inappropriately withdrawing ten thousand dollars from an Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona account, but he acknowledges that, once the bank realized its error and asked her to return the funds, she did so. Schiffres, on behalf of Brown and EDF, explains this incident in his letter of October 27, 2008, as follows: ********** Ms. Brown did withdraw $10,000 from an Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona account at Wells Fargo Bank. She went to a Claremont branch of Wells Fargo and filled out a withdrawal form (in the absence of having any available checks) and presented appropriate identification. The bank teller (name unknown) checked the bank's signature card records to confirm Ms. Brown's authority to make the withdrawal. Ms. Brown advises that the teller appeared also to have obtained the approval of the bank manager. The withdrawal was thus approved, and Ms. Brown received $10,000. She used same to pay counsel on behalf of Eye Dog Foundation for work performed on its behalf. Approximately two weeks later the Wells Fargo branch manager called Ms. Brown, advising her that she was not shown as a signatory on the account and requesting that the monies be repaid. Ms. Brown's response was that he should double-check his records because she was in fact an authorized signer, as was confirmed by the teller. The manager then responded that the names on the account were two other board members, Ms. Wonderley and Mr. Harris, and he claimed Ms. Brown had never been a signatory on the account. Although the bank manager's information that Ms. Brown lacked authority to make a withdrawal on the subject account was incorrect, rather than argue the point, Ms. Brown simply took the pragmatic approach. She used her own personal funds to reimburse the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona account at Wells Fargo Bank in response to the Bank's request, thereby to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. It was subsequently learned that the receiver had apparently empowered Wendy Wonderley and Louis Harris to take over control of that account, and they had presented the bank with documentation that superseded the bank authorization for Ms. Brown to sign on the account. This was not revealed to Ms. Brown at the time or to her counsel; nor was the Bank subsequently informed by Ms. Wonderley or Mr. Harris, or by the receiver, that upon extinguishing the receivership, control of the account had reverted to Eye Dog Foundation's board, of which Ms. Brown was its duly elected executive director. Had either notice been provided, the entire episode would never have occurred. ********** In the face of such contradictory information, the Braille Monitor is unable to verify fully or accurately where the truth in this incident actually lies, but we have records (minutes and the articles of incorporation for the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona) that show that Ms. Brown was not a member of this organization's governing body. Nevertheless, no doubt can exist that, while the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona and the Eye Dog Foundation of California were separate legal entities, these organizations worked together in an allied cause. Subsequent to the dissolution of the EDF receivership, Mr. Ploetz reports that Brown, in her capacity as EDF executive director, has now entirely drained the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona bank account and has absorbed its resources into the Eye Dog Foundation of California operation. Ploetz alleges that Brown had no right to do this since she has never had anything to do with this entity. He reports that he filed a criminal complaint with the IRS regarding Brown's second Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona withdrawal in the spring of this year. Without resources to operate the Eye Dog Foundation of Arizona, Ploetz told us that its board dissolved the small Arizona-based organization in the spring of 2008. In response to this second allegation, Schiffres said, "Your letter references a pending IRS criminal probe into Ms. Brown's alleged taking of funds from Eye Dog of Arizona ("EDA") accounts. We are not aware of any such inquiry. However, we are unaware of any claimed impropriety regarding said accounts by Ms. Brown. We therefore must question the accuracy of your information." Both Ploetz and Wonderley tell the Braille Monitor that Brown also attempted inappropriately to withdraw $30,000 from an EDF of California account, but they both confirm that this attempted transaction was ultimately blocked by the bank and that these funds were never taken. Counsel for Ms. Brown, however, contradicts this claim and explains the incident like this: ********** Your letter references an attempted withdrawal of funds from Arizona accounts. The true facts are as follows: As you are presumably aware, several years ago the Eye Dog Foundation board was provided a statement of resignation by Lequita McKay, executive director. The resignation was understood to include her director position and a new executive director-- Ms. Gwen Brown--was voted in. Then Ms. McKay and her supporters on the board claimed that she did not intend to resign as director, leading to a board deadlock. This, in turn, led to a lawsuit and the imposition of a receiver. Following Ms. McKay's death, which mooted the issue of board deadlock, and the presentation of opposition proof and briefing, the court held in favor of the Gwen Brown faction of the board and made an order extinguishing the receivership. Unfortunately, the practical effects of the suit, receivership, and elimination of the receivership, lasted much longer. Several months passed during which we were unable to get court orders signed for the reinstatement of the new board and Ms. Brown. The result was a major dislocation of the Foundation's business. It is in this context that this and your other questions must be considered. On a date subsequent to the receiver's appointment, Eye Dog Foundation received a letter from Citibank advising of a maturing six-month CD. Ms. Brown and another board member, Mr. Hannon, responded by going to the Citibank branch in Upland with the intention of ascertaining Eye Dog Foundation's available options for the handling of the CD precisely because the account was at the time in receivership. They met and spoke to a Ms. Hong and specifically advised her that the account was subject to the receivership. Ms. Hong responded that notwithstanding what she was being told by Ms. Brown and Mr. Hannon, there was "no hold" on the account. She indicated she would have to contact her home office to obtain further instructions. Ms. Brown believes that Mr. Hannon signed a document given to him by Ms. Hong at that time. Ms. Hong stated that the document was needed in order for her to make the home office inquiry. That was the extent of the first visit to Citibank, which occurred on a Friday. The following Monday or Tuesday Ms. Brown had a telephone conversation with Ms. Hong. Ms. Hong this time advised that the account should have been blocked. Consequently, Ms. Brown and Mr. Hannon thought the matter was resolved. They gave Ms. Hong no instructions concerning the maturing CD because, upon receiving the bank's confirmation that the CD was on hold, meant they had no power or authority to act with regard to same. There was no attempt to withdraw $30,000 from the Citibank account. ************ [PHOTO/CAPTION: Litta, EDF puppy in training] This is what we know. The Braille Monitor has been careful in reporting this story to keep our narration to facts or circumstances confirmed by at least two people. What we personally believe as a result of our investigation, however, could fill several more pages. Blind consumers, oversight authorities, and others interested in the welfare of guide dogs should understand that the Eye Dog Foundation is clearly in trouble. They currently have no dog trainers on staff who meet industry standards for working with guide dogs. The qualified trainers that they did employ have resigned, citing the hostile and oppressive work environment created by Executive Director Brown, who seems to know little about the day-to-day issues of guide dog instruction or practice. The school has not issued a guide dog to a blind handler in well over a year. The caring and conscientious EDF volunteer puppy-raising community is so concerned about the absence of quality training and the general safety of the dogs that they are engaged in an unprecedented act of civil disobedience, willingly submitting themselves to legal jeopardy for their principles. And the EDF governing board (an insular body indeed, in which its members' contact details are not readily available to the public and most of its members will not speak about their knowledge of events) is now merely a rubber stamp for Brown, since all the members who disagreed with the current administration have died or resigned in frustration. We note that, to the best of our knowledge, no consumers have ever served on the EDF board. This is a distressing situation to be sure. Finally, the EDF operates under a dark shadow while it remains under investigation from the California Attorney General and the IRS. Caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) should probably be the watch phrase for those who have dealings with the Eye Dog Foundation in future. Only time will tell what will happen with this organization. We sincerely hope that matters can be resolved. The blind of America can only benefit from a well-run guide dog school that specializes in the training of German Shepherds, but at present the prospects for the foundation seem poor. -- -Shane Blog: http://blind-geek.com/blog/ CoOwner: http://sjtechzone.com AIM: inhaddict Skype: chatter8712 MSN: shane at blind-geek.com From jbar at barcore.com Thu Dec 4 16:00:33 2008 From: jbar at barcore.com (Jim Barbour) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 08:00:33 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: References: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> To use facebook, I suggest that screen reader users try m.facebook.com, which is their mobile interface. I would agree that sending an invitation to this list was inappropriate. I am assuming that Michael told facebook to "scan my email contacts" and then emailed an invitation to all of them. This is a very standard way of inviting people to join you on such sites. LInkedIn, a networking website focused on professional networking, has the option. Its up to the user to filter out email lists, etc. However, in general, facebook and linkedin can be very useful. Not just for socializing but for keeping in touch with family, communicating information about groups (the NFB of California's student division has a facebook page), and sharing your resume with people who want to read it. As to privacy, I'd be interested to know your questions. I believe no one has any expectation of privacy about anything they post on the site. Pictures, resumes, "private" messages to other memebers, etc. However, the same thing applies to this listserv. I am not aware of any mistreatment of credit card numbers. As to selling information about people on the website, its a bit of a grey area. Legally, they could do this, but it would be very stupid, It would sink the brand loyalty they've build up, for a one time payment. I can see them selling demographic information, in much the same way the amazon does, but that seems reasonable. I also suspect that it uses your profile information to help target advertising at you. Again, this seems totally reasonable to me. I've written all this because I believe that social networks will be a huge thing for blind folks, especially for job seeking, and various kinds of social interaction. I highly recommend getting to know facebook (http://www.facebook.com/) and linked in (http://www.linkedin.com) Regards, Jim On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 02:30:55AM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > The Face book invitation that was posted to this group is one of the > reasons why I haven't joined these types of web sites as they generate a > lot of SPAM emails like this one that was posted to the group. There is {<> also questions about how respectful these sites are regarding users privacy. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephanie Ortoleva" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > > > >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen > >reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to > >using face book with window eyes? > >Thanks, > >Stephanie Ortoleva > >At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: > >>Hi blindlaw, > >> > >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and > >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you > >>need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own > >>profile. > >> > >>Thanks, > >>Michael > >> > >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: > >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>blindlaw mailing list > >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>blindlaw: > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40earthlink.net > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >blindlaw mailing list > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >blindlaw: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com From cjborne at comcast.net Thu Dec 4 18:49:40 2008 From: cjborne at comcast.net (Craig Borne) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:49:40 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> References: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> Message-ID: <010601c95641$1056d980$6700a8c0@computer> m.facebook.com presents the user with a file download. Is this the right address? Craig Craig Borne, Esq. Baltimore, Maryland "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom." --Thomas Paine, Common Sense -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:01 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile To use facebook, I suggest that screen reader users try m.facebook.com, which is their mobile interface. I would agree that sending an invitation to this list was inappropriate. I am assuming that Michael told facebook to "scan my email contacts" and then emailed an invitation to all of them. This is a very standard way of inviting people to join you on such sites. LInkedIn, a networking website focused on professional networking, has the option. Its up to the user to filter out email lists, etc. However, in general, facebook and linkedin can be very useful. Not just for socializing but for keeping in touch with family, communicating information about groups (the NFB of California's student division has a facebook page), and sharing your resume with people who want to read it. As to privacy, I'd be interested to know your questions. I believe no one has any expectation of privacy about anything they post on the site. Pictures, resumes, "private" messages to other memebers, etc. However, the same thing applies to this listserv. I am not aware of any mistreatment of credit card numbers. As to selling information about people on the website, its a bit of a grey area. Legally, they could do this, but it would be very stupid, It would sink the brand loyalty they've build up, for a one time payment. I can see them selling demographic information, in much the same way the amazon does, but that seems reasonable. I also suspect that it uses your profile information to help target advertising at you. Again, this seems totally reasonable to me. I've written all this because I believe that social networks will be a huge thing for blind folks, especially for job seeking, and various kinds of social interaction. I highly recommend getting to know facebook (http://www.facebook.com/) and linked in (http://www.linkedin.com) Regards, Jim On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 02:30:55AM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > The Face book invitation that was posted to this group is one of the > reasons why I haven't joined these types of web sites as they generate a > lot of SPAM emails like this one that was posted to the group. There is {<> also questions about how respectful these sites are regarding users privacy. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephanie Ortoleva" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > > > >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen > >reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to > >using face book with window eyes? > >Thanks, > >Stephanie Ortoleva > >At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: > >>Hi blindlaw, > >> > >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and > >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you > >>need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own > >>profile. > >> > >>Thanks, > >>Michael > >> > >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: > >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>blindlaw mailing list > >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>blindlaw: > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40eart hlink.net > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >blindlaw mailing list > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >blindlaw: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglo bal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast. net From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Thu Dec 4 19:30:48 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:30:48 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Save the Date for ABA National Conference on Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities Message-ID: ________________________________ From: Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law [mailto:cmpdl at abanet.org] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:00 AM To: Nightingale, Noel Subject: Save the Date for ABA National Conference on Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities If you cannot view this message, go to: http://www.abanet.org/disability/conferences/savethedate.html Save the Date! [http://www.abanet.org/disability/images/2009conferencelogo-TRANSPARENT.png] Hosted by ABA President H. Thomas Wells, Jr. Conference Topics Will Include: * Making the pledge to interview and hire lawyers with disabilities * The transition from law student to lawyer with accommodations * Best practices for hiring, retaining, and accommodating lawyers with disabilities Location: Washington Marriott Wardman Park Hotel (room group code: "ABAABAA") For more information, including sponsorship opportunities, visit: http://www.abanet.org/disability/conferences/09conference.shtml or contact Michael J. Stratton at 202-662-1571 (phone) or CMPDL at abanet.org (e-mail). [http://www.abanet.org/disability/images/ACCLogoTRANS.png] [http://www.abanet.org/disability/images/MCCALogoTRANS.png] CLE certification pending From jbar at barcore.com Thu Dec 4 20:03:41 2008 From: jbar at barcore.com (Jim Barbour) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:03:41 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: <010601c95641$1056d980$6700a8c0@computer> References: <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> <010601c95641$1056d980$6700a8c0@computer> Message-ID: <20081204200340.GG31292@barcore.com> It doesn't do that for me. I'll take this up with you off list. Jim On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:49:40PM -0500, Craig Borne wrote: > m.facebook.com presents the user with a file download. Is this the right > address? > Craig > > Craig Borne, Esq. > Baltimore, Maryland > "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial > appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in > defense of custom." --Thomas Paine, Common Sense > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Jim Barbour > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:01 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > > To use facebook, I suggest that screen reader users try > m.facebook.com, which is their mobile interface. > > I would agree that sending an invitation to this list was > inappropriate. I am assuming that Michael told facebook to "scan my > email contacts" and then emailed an invitation to all of them. This > is a very standard way of inviting people to join you on such sites. > LInkedIn, a networking website focused on professional networking, > has the option. Its up to the user to filter out email lists, etc. > > However, in general, facebook and linkedin can be very useful. Not > just for socializing but for keeping in touch with family, communicating > information about groups (the NFB of California's student division has > a facebook page), and sharing your resume with people who want to read it. > > As to privacy, I'd be interested to know your questions. I believe no > one has any expectation of privacy about anything they post on the > site. Pictures, resumes, "private" messages to other memebers, etc. > However, the same thing applies to this listserv. > > I am not aware of any mistreatment of credit card numbers. > > As to selling information about people on the website, its a bit of a > grey area. Legally, they could do this, but it would be very stupid, > It would sink the brand loyalty they've build up, for a one time > payment. I can see them selling demographic information, in much the > same way the amazon does, but that seems reasonable. > > I also suspect that it uses your profile information to help target > advertising at you. Again, this seems totally reasonable to me. > > I've written all this because I believe that social networks will be a > huge thing for blind folks, especially for job seeking, and various > kinds of social interaction. I highly recommend getting to know > facebook (http://www.facebook.com/) and linked in (http://www.linkedin.com) > > Regards, > > Jim > > On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 02:30:55AM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > The Face book invitation that was posted to this group is one of the > > reasons why I haven't joined these types of web sites as they generate a > > lot of SPAM emails like this one that was posted to the group. There is > {<> also questions about how respectful these sites are regarding users > privacy. > > Chuck > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Stephanie Ortoleva" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 AM > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > > > > > > >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen > > >reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to > > >using face book with window eyes? > > >Thanks, > > >Stephanie Ortoleva > > >At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: > > >>Hi blindlaw, > > >> > > >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and > > >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you > > >>need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own > > >>profile. > > >> > > >>Thanks, > > >>Michael > > >> > > >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: > > >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r > > >> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>blindlaw mailing list > > >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >>blindlaw: > > > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40eart > hlink.net > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >blindlaw mailing list > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >blindlaw: > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglo > bal.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Thu Dec 4 19:23:37 2008 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 13:23:37 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Stephanie, Do you know about GW Micro's GW Info list? You probably would have a better chance of getting some help there in addition to trying the site for mobil phones that Jim Barbour mentioned. If you don't, you can get some information by going to GW Micro's home page, then to Support and finally to Email lists, or you can go there directly by opening http://www.gwmicro.com/Support/Email_Lists/ It will also be helpful to describe the specific things that are causing difficulty when you write. As Jim said, there are more and more blind people using these sites, but I think that it is still true that most of us don't so we can't be of much help. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 03:44:53 -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my >screen reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any >guide to using face book with window eyes? >Thanks, >Stephanie Ortoleva >At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: >>Hi blindlaw, >> >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, >>you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile. >> >>Thanks, >>Michael >> >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r >> >>_______________________________________________ >>blindlaw mailing list >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for blindlaw: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40earthlink.net >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From jbar at barcore.com Thu Dec 4 20:40:32 2008 From: jbar at barcore.com (Jim Barbour) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:40:32 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: <010601c95641$1056d980$6700a8c0@computer> References: <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> <010601c95641$1056d980$6700a8c0@computer> Message-ID: <20081204204032.GK31292@barcore.com> This should be my last post on this thread. It seems that internet explorer 6 won't work with m.facebook.com, but ie7 will. Feel free to contact me off list for more info Jim On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:49:40PM -0500, Craig Borne wrote: > m.facebook.com presents the user with a file download. Is this the right > address? > Craig > > Craig Borne, Esq. > Baltimore, Maryland > "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial > appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in > defense of custom." --Thomas Paine, Common Sense > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Jim Barbour > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:01 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > > To use facebook, I suggest that screen reader users try > m.facebook.com, which is their mobile interface. > > I would agree that sending an invitation to this list was > inappropriate. I am assuming that Michael told facebook to "scan my > email contacts" and then emailed an invitation to all of them. This > is a very standard way of inviting people to join you on such sites. > LInkedIn, a networking website focused on professional networking, > has the option. Its up to the user to filter out email lists, etc. > > However, in general, facebook and linkedin can be very useful. Not > just for socializing but for keeping in touch with family, communicating > information about groups (the NFB of California's student division has > a facebook page), and sharing your resume with people who want to read it. > > As to privacy, I'd be interested to know your questions. I believe no > one has any expectation of privacy about anything they post on the > site. Pictures, resumes, "private" messages to other memebers, etc. > However, the same thing applies to this listserv. > > I am not aware of any mistreatment of credit card numbers. > > As to selling information about people on the website, its a bit of a > grey area. Legally, they could do this, but it would be very stupid, > It would sink the brand loyalty they've build up, for a one time > payment. I can see them selling demographic information, in much the > same way the amazon does, but that seems reasonable. > > I also suspect that it uses your profile information to help target > advertising at you. Again, this seems totally reasonable to me. > > I've written all this because I believe that social networks will be a > huge thing for blind folks, especially for job seeking, and various > kinds of social interaction. I highly recommend getting to know > facebook (http://www.facebook.com/) and linked in (http://www.linkedin.com) > > Regards, > > Jim > > On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 02:30:55AM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > The Face book invitation that was posted to this group is one of the > > reasons why I haven't joined these types of web sites as they generate a > > lot of SPAM emails like this one that was posted to the group. There is > {<> also questions about how respectful these sites are regarding users > privacy. > > Chuck > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Stephanie Ortoleva" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 AM > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > > > > > > >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen > > >reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to > > >using face book with window eyes? > > >Thanks, > > >Stephanie Ortoleva > > >At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: > > >>Hi blindlaw, > > >> > > >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and > > >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you > > >>need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own > > >>profile. > > >> > > >>Thanks, > > >>Michael > > >> > > >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: > > >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r > > >> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>blindlaw mailing list > > >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >>blindlaw: > > > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40eart > hlink.net > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >blindlaw mailing list > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >blindlaw: > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglo > bal.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 5 00:17:48 2008 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 16:17:48 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile In-Reply-To: <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> References: <9df44da3c64105bd78ce99345f1903a9@localhost.localdomain> <20081204160033.GC31292@barcore.com> Message-ID: <22C1240DFFB842BFBFAC63D94EF399E7@spike> Hi Jim, my privacy concerns were based more on the possible of selling email contact information to various marketers/advertisers, not with regard to the posting of content. It also referred to the point you mentioned of not being able to opt out of receiving invitation requests as you mentioned. I have some concerns of not being able to opt of certain web tracking features such as the "WEB Beacons" that are used on Yahoo.com although those can be opted out of. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Barbour" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile > To use facebook, I suggest that screen reader users try > m.facebook.com, which is their mobile interface. > > I would agree that sending an invitation to this list was > inappropriate. I am assuming that Michael told facebook to "scan my > email contacts" and then emailed an invitation to all of them. This > is a very standard way of inviting people to join you on such sites. > LInkedIn, a networking website focused on professional networking, > has the option. Its up to the user to filter out email lists, etc. > > However, in general, facebook and linkedin can be very useful. Not > just for socializing but for keeping in touch with family, communicating > information about groups (the NFB of California's student division has > a facebook page), and sharing your resume with people who want to read it. > > As to privacy, I'd be interested to know your questions. I believe no > one has any expectation of privacy about anything they post on the > site. Pictures, resumes, "private" messages to other memebers, etc. > However, the same thing applies to this listserv. > > I am not aware of any mistreatment of credit card numbers. > > As to selling information about people on the website, its a bit of a > grey area. Legally, they could do this, but it would be very stupid, > It would sink the brand loyalty they've build up, for a one time > payment. I can see them selling demographic information, in much the > same way the amazon does, but that seems reasonable. > > I also suspect that it uses your profile information to help target > advertising at you. Again, this seems totally reasonable to me. > > I've written all this because I believe that social networks will be a > huge thing for blind folks, especially for job seeking, and various > kinds of social interaction. I highly recommend getting to know > facebook (http://www.facebook.com/) and linked in > (http://www.linkedin.com) > > Regards, > > Jim > > On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 02:30:55AM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> The Face book invitation that was posted to this group is one of the >> reasons why I haven't joined these types of web sites as they generate a >> lot of SPAM emails like this one that was posted to the group. There is > {<> also questions about how respectful these sites are regarding users > privacy. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Stephanie Ortoleva" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Check out my Facebook profile >> >> >> >I have a face book page, but have had difficulty using it with my screen >> >reader. Does anyone have suggestions or has anyone seen any guide to >> >using face book with window eyes? >> >Thanks, >> >Stephanie Ortoleva >> >At 10:38 PM 12/3/2008, you wrote: >> >>Hi blindlaw, >> >> >> >>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and >> >>events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you >> >>need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own >> >>profile. >> >> >> >>Thanks, >> >>Michael >> >> >> >>To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: >> >>http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=202990&k=6V1U53VYRV6M5DAFYKXTQ3&r >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>blindlaw mailing list >> >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>blindlaw: >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40earthlink.net >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >blindlaw mailing list >> >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >blindlaw: >> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Fri Dec 5 16:16:35 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:16:35 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Gates Scholarships Message-ID: Gates Scholarships Funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, Gates Millennium Scholars (GMS) is currently seeking nominations for outstanding students of color seeking assistance with paying for college. You are invited to nominate outstanding students of color that you know and who you feel would benefit from this award. These scholarships, which the Gates Foundation awards to 1,000 students per year with exceptional GPAs and who demonstrate remarkable leadership abilities either through community service or in extracurricular activities, are for full-time undergraduates and some graduate study students. All applications must be submitted and postmarked by January 1, 2009. For the application and more information on this amazing opportunity, please visit the GMS Scholarship site. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Picture (Metafile) 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 631 bytes Desc: Picture (Metafile) 1.jpg URL: From womankind at earthlink.net Sat Dec 6 17:32:54 2008 From: womankind at earthlink.net (Stephanie Ortoleva) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 12:32:54 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these mobile devices/cell phones? Blackberry Storm, touch screen LG Dare, touchscreen LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that work with verizon? Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. Stephanie Ortoleva From jbar at barcore.com Sat Dec 6 19:43:31 2008 From: jbar at barcore.com (Jim Barbour) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:43:31 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081206194330.GC21360@barcore.com> Hey Stephanie, You'll do much better asking this question on electronics-talk at nfbnet.org Many people there have researched this ;) I can tell you that the storm is not accessible. My guess is that none of the touchscreen phones will be very accessible, but we can talk more on electronics-talk about what your constraints are and how we can help find something that works :) Hope that helps, Jim On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to > resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these > mobile devices/cell phones? > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > LG Dare, touchscreen > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to > use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that > work with verizon? > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > Stephanie Ortoleva > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sat Dec 6 20:50:36 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 12:50:36 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081206205036.GB12548@yumi.bluecherry.net> Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely accessible in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable platform you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can make a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with personal information management. Joseph On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to resources > that migh have information on the accessibility of these mobile > devices/cell phones? > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > LG Dare, touchscreen > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to use > verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that work with > verizon? > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > Stephanie Ortoleva From AZNOR99 at aol.com Sun Dec 7 01:11:43 2008 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 20:11:43 EST Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices Message-ID: I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs are compatible with their software. Ronza In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely accessible in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable platform you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can make a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with personal information management. Joseph On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to resources > that migh have information on the accessibility of these mobile > devices/cell phones? > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > LG Dare, touchscreen > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to use > verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that work with > verizon? > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > Stephanie Ortoleva _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) From jsorozco at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 02:38:10 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 21:38:10 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20ABA27CA5D941C1B5DABAB23B072E74@MonkeyPaw> The MotoQ does in fact work with Verizon, but having used it for the past year, I assure you it is only worth the investment if you're satisfied with slow performance. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:12 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs are compatible with their software. Ronza In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely accessible in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable platform you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can make a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with personal information management. Joseph On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to > resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these > mobile devices/cell phones? > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > LG Dare, touchscreen > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to > use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that > work with verizon? > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > Stephanie Ortoleva _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000 010) _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om From womankind at earthlink.net Sun Dec 7 03:16:31 2008 From: womankind at earthlink.net (Stephanie Ortoleva) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 22:16:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ronza, what is the talks webpage? Another software program for cell phones? Thanks. Stephanie At 08:11 PM 12/6/2008, you wrote: >I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code >Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs >are compatible >with their software. > >Ronza > > >In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: > >Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely accessible >in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run >Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable platform >you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can make >a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with personal >information management. > >Joseph > >On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to resources > > that migh have information on the accessibility of these mobile > > devices/cell phones? > > > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > > LG Dare, touchscreen > > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to use > > verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that work with > > verizon? > > > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > > > Stephanie Ortoleva > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > >**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and >favorite sites in one place. Try it now. >(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/womankind%40earthlink.net From AZNOR99 at aol.com Sun Dec 7 15:10:58 2008 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:10:58 EST Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices Message-ID: I have the Sprint Version of the MotoQ, and I am very happy with it. It can text, handle email, browse the web, write and edit documents, handle appointments and alarms, and much more. The only drawbacks are that it is only compatible with Mobile Speak and it, like all windows platforms, occasionally freezes and needs to be rebooted. But that's just my opinion. Joe doesn't like it, and I'm sure he and I use it for many of the same reasons. So you might want to explore all of your options. Ronza In a message dated 12/6/2008 10:29:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jsorozco at gmail.com writes: The MotoQ does in fact work with Verizon, but having used it for the past year, I assure you it is only worth the investment if you're satisfied with slow performance. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:12 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs are compatible with their software. Ronza In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely accessible in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable platform you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can make a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with personal information management. Joseph On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to > resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these > mobile devices/cell phones? > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > LG Dare, touchscreen > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to > use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that > work with verizon? > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > Stephanie Ortoleva _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000 010) _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) From joramsey at cox.net Sun Dec 7 17:09:20 2008 From: joramsey at cox.net (John ) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:09:20 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question Message-ID: <251EBA65023441BBA9E391F61A32CE02@noneeb869fea9a> Hello All, i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the impression that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because she received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that everyone else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of the CFR that contains such a requirement? Cordially, John John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. Gainesville, FL 32609 Phone: (352) 505-6642 From roddj12 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 7 17:25:33 2008 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:25:33 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices References: Message-ID: Ronza: Do you use an external keyboard for document drafting with your Pocket PC? Or do you use the onboard one. Take care. Rod Alcidonis Criminal Defense Clinic Student Attorney Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices >I have the Sprint Version of the MotoQ, and I am very happy with it. It >can > text, handle email, browse the web, write and edit documents, handle > appointments and alarms, and much more. The only drawbacks are that it > is only > compatible with Mobile Speak and it, like all windows platforms, > occasionally > freezes and needs to be rebooted. But that's just my opinion. Joe > doesn't like > it, and I'm sure he and I use it for many of the same reasons. So you > might > want to explore all of your options. > > Ronza > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2008 10:29:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jsorozco at gmail.com writes: > > The MotoQ does in fact work with Verizon, but having used it for the past > year, I assure you it is only worth the investment if you're satisfied > with > slow performance. > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James > M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:12 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices > > I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code > Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs are > compatible with their software. > > Ronza > > > In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: > > Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely > accessible > in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run > Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable > platform > you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can > make > a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with > personal > information management. > > Joseph > > On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: >> Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to >> resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these >> mobile devices/cell phones? >> >> Blackberry Storm, touch screen >> LG Dare, touchscreen >> LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen >> >> I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to >> use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that >> work with verizon? >> >> Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. >> >> Stephanie Ortoleva > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000 > 010) > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > From jsorozco at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 19:12:10 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 14:12:10 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, and to be fair, I think much of my beef may have to do more with the software than with the phone. Verizon puts out the Pantech as well, but if you're down to choosing between the two, definitely go with the MotoQ as it is the lesser of two evils. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:11 AM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices I have the Sprint Version of the MotoQ, and I am very happy with it. It can text, handle email, browse the web, write and edit documents, handle appointments and alarms, and much more. The only drawbacks are that it is only compatible with Mobile Speak and it, like all windows platforms, occasionally freezes and needs to be rebooted. But that's just my opinion. Joe doesn't like it, and I'm sure he and I use it for many of the same reasons. So you might want to explore all of your options. Ronza In a message dated 12/6/2008 10:29:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jsorozco at gmail.com writes: The MotoQ does in fact work with Verizon, but having used it for the past year, I assure you it is only worth the investment if you're satisfied with slow performance. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:12 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs are compatible with their software. Ronza In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely accessible in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable platform you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can make a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with personal information management. Joseph On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: > Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to > resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these > mobile devices/cell phones? > > Blackberry Storm, touch screen > LG Dare, touchscreen > LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen > > I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to > use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that > work with verizon? > > Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. > > Stephanie Ortoleva _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000 010) _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000 010) _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om From AZNOR99 at aol.com Sun Dec 7 19:46:42 2008 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 14:46:42 EST Subject: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices Message-ID: I use the QWERTY keyboard that came with the phone. In a message dated 12/7/2008 1:38:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, roddj12 at hotmail.com writes: Ronza: Do you use an external keyboard for document drafting with your Pocket PC? Or do you use the onboard one. Take care. Rod Alcidonis Criminal Defense Clinic Student Attorney Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices >I have the Sprint Version of the MotoQ, and I am very happy with it. It >can > text, handle email, browse the web, write and edit documents, handle > appointments and alarms, and much more. The only drawbacks are that it > is only > compatible with Mobile Speak and it, like all windows platforms, > occasionally > freezes and needs to be rebooted. But that's just my opinion. Joe > doesn't like > it, and I'm sure he and I use it for many of the same reasons. So you > might > want to explore all of your options. > > Ronza > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2008 10:29:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jsorozco at gmail.com writes: > > The MotoQ does in fact work with Verizon, but having used it for the past > year, I assure you it is only worth the investment if you're satisfied > with > slow performance. > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James > M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:12 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] a question re cell phones and mobile devices > > I think the MotoQ works with Verizon, but I'm not sure. Check the Code > Factory and Talks web pages. They each list what phones and PDAs are > compatible with their software. > > Ronza > > > In a message dated 12/6/2008 4:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: > > Not the right list, but none of these devices is even remotely > accessible > in any way, shape, or form. The only touch screen devices that are run > Windows Mobile. They're expensive, not exactly the most stable > platform > you've ever used, and they're really more like computers that you can > make > a phone call on (after you learn how to use them) than phones with > personal > information management. > > Joseph > > On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 12:32:54PM -0500, Stephanie Ortoleva wrote: >> Does anyone either know anything about or have thoughts as to >> resources that migh have information on the accessibility of these >> mobile devices/cell phones? >> >> Blackberry Storm, touch screen >> LG Dare, touchscreen >> LG Voyater in Titanium, touchscreen >> >> I need to move from a cell phone to a a mobile device and need to >> use verizon service. Are there any other alternative devices that >> work with verizon? >> >> Thank you for any thoughts. Might be best to respond off line. >> >> Stephanie Ortoleva > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000 > 010) > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 7 20:33:44 2008 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:33:44 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject) Message-ID: <51179B61-01D5-489F-A6A8-CFDFADED8C2C@sbcglobal.net> Hey Ronza: How about a list of necessary practice manuals for a startup immigration practice? Tried the off list thing and couldn't get through to you. James From khagen12 at q.com Sun Dec 7 21:24:31 2008 From: khagen12 at q.com (Kathleen Hagen) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:24:31 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question References: <251EBA65023441BBA9E391F61A32CE02@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients in which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time soon. Kathy Hagen ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > Hello All, > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > impression > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because > she > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > everyone > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of the > CFR that contains such a requirement? > Cordially, > John > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com > From timandvickie at hotmail.com Sun Dec 7 22:23:11 2008 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 22:23:11 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <251EBA65023441BBA9E391F61A32CE02@noneeb869fea9a> References: <251EBA65023441BBA9E391F61A32CE02@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: i dont know about the legal requirement to do it, but they woudlnt have to send the letter to everyone that MAY have a visual impariment. If you are legally blind it should be on file in their system, i know it is in ym file with them. Otherwise you cant get the income adjustments and stuff related to being a blind individual which are different from those of just having a disability.> From: joramsey at cox.net> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:09:20 -0500> Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question> > Hello All,> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the impression> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because she> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that everyone> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of the> CFR that contains such a requirement?> Cordially,> John> > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.> > Gainesville, FL 32609> > Phone: (352) 505-6642> > > _______________________________________________> blindlaw mailing list> blindlaw at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 From AZNOR99 at aol.com Mon Dec 8 00:06:38 2008 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:06:38 EST Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject) Message-ID: Hmmm, Wonder why I never got your message. I'd say to go to _www.uscis.gov_ (http://www.uscis.gov) and read everything that's there first. Then go to the forms page and download all the instructions to all the forms. Pay particular attention to the Visa applications, Naturalization, and the forms that range from I-129 through I-134. Pay particular attention to I-485. For Asylum, you'll want to probably buy a book. Also, consider getting a LegalLines or some other outline book for Immigration Law and Policy (available at most law schools). Finally, do a google search on whatever particular area you want to work on, e.g. Visas for Religious Workers, and see what you find. If you get a removal case, we'll want to talk, as those are much more complicated with much higher stakes. But remember that immigration is largely a battle of forms. You need to impress an immigration officer, so good, thorough, comprehensive documentation with the initial application is key. Immigration litigation before an immigration judge is more complicated, but it's mostly done through your exhibit and not as much through oral argument. I don't use a hard and fast manual. But you can try to contact some of the immigration law clinics in your area and see what they might have for you. Good luck, Ronza In a message dated 12/7/2008 4:34:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net writes: Hey Ronza: How about a list of necessary practice manuals for a startup immigration practice? Tried the off list thing and couldn't get through to you. James _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) From joramsey at cox.net Mon Dec 8 02:09:35 2008 From: joramsey at cox.net (John ) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 21:09:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Kathy, That is what I thought. I doubt many of us on this list will be alive when the SSA has to use alternative formats across the board. Cordially, John John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. Gainesville, FL 32609 Phone: (352) 505-6642 -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen Hagen Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 4:25 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients in which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time soon. Kathy Hagen ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > Hello All, > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > impression > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because > she > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > everyone > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of the > CFR that contains such a requirement? > Cordially, > John > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 8 04:17:28 2008 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:17:28 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Ronza. On Dec 7, 2008, at 4:06 PM, AZNOR99 at aol.com wrote: > Hmmm, Wonder why I never got your message. > > I'd say to go to _www.uscis.gov_ (http://www.uscis.gov) and read > everything > that's there first. Then go to the forms page and download all the > instructions to all the forms. Pay particular attention to the > Visa applications, > Naturalization, and the forms that range from I-129 through I-134. > Pay > particular attention to I-485. For Asylum, you'll want to probably > buy a book. > Also, consider getting a LegalLines or some other outline book for > Immigration > Law and Policy (available at most law schools). Finally, do a > google search > on whatever particular area you want to work on, e.g. Visas for > Religious > Workers, and see what you find. > > If you get a removal case, we'll want to talk, as those are much more > complicated with much higher stakes. But remember that immigration > is largely a > battle of forms. You need to impress an immigration officer, so > good, > thorough, comprehensive documentation with the initial application > is key. > Immigration litigation before an immigration judge is more > complicated, but it's > mostly done through your exhibit and not as much through oral > argument. > > I don't use a hard and fast manual. But you can try to contact > some of the > immigration law clinics in your area and see what they might have > for you. > > Good luck, > Ronza > > > > In a message dated 12/7/2008 4:34:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net writes: > > Hey Ronza: > > How about a list of necessary practice manuals for a startup > immigration practice? Tried the off list thing and couldn't get > through to you. > > James > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010 > ) > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 8 07:40:45 2008 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 23:40:45 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <251EBA65023441BBA9E391F61A32CE02@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say that materials were available in Braille and people could receive communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients in > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean > that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. > And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' > money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they > provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't > expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time > soon. > Kathy Hagen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John " > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >> Hello All, >> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >> impression >> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because >> she >> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >> everyone >> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a >> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an >> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual >> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >> the >> CFR that contains such a requirement? >> Cordially, >> John >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From joramsey at cox.net Mon Dec 8 10:09:31 2008 From: joramsey at cox.net (John ) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 05:09:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Chuck, I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in an accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all hold blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. Take care, John John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. Gainesville, FL 32609 Phone: (352) 505-6642 -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say that materials were available in Braille and people could receive communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > in > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean > that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. > And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' > money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they > provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't > expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time > soon. > Kathy Hagen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John " > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >> Hello All, >> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >> impression >> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because >> she >> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >> everyone >> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a >> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an >> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual >> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >> the >> CFR that contains such a requirement? >> Cordially, >> John >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob al.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From b75205 at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 11:07:06 2008 From: b75205 at gmail.com (b75205 at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:07:06 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question Message-ID: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of technologies. I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought out in California. James Pepper On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say that materials were available in Braille and people could receive communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients in which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time soon. > > > Kathy Hagen > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the impression > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because she > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that everyone > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of the > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > Cordially, > > > John > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > From JMcCarthy at nfb.org Mon Dec 8 14:26:58 2008 From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org (McCarthy, Jim) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:26:58 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> Message-ID: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> When doing some other review of the Social Security Act, I noticed that there are provisions requiring special treatment of notices blind recipients of Social Security Disability Insurance and Supplemental Security Income receive from the agency. The provisions seem to permit the poor notice the agency provides. Right now the agency will not provide Braille notices, but they can read notices by phone, notify a recipient by sending the notice as a certified letter or something else. All of these have substantial challenges if we assume the goal is to actually provide notice. I am sure though that the agency will probably say it is following statutory authority. It will be interesting to see how the court thinks that stacks up to any Section 504 requirements on the point. My personal feeling is that if the SSA does not have to send accessible format information, no government entity will have to do so and I also think that would make a pretty strong argument that private entities such as banks or credit card issuers do not either. I think, therefore, that this is a pretty important case. Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:07 AM To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net; blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of technologies. I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought out in California. James Pepper On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > that materials were available in Braille and people could receive communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > in which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time soon. > > > Kathy Hagen > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the impression > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because she > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that everyone > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of the > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > Cordially, > > > John > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc global.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail .com > > > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf b.org From b75205 at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 18:06:35 2008 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:06:35 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: Charles and Jim: SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do with their charter, they are required to be accessible. Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with the forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social Security Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for the blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This confuses the issue. What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you can walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the content with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there in front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by the IT people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test their pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by the blind. It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you go through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it is not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible or it isn't there is no in between. IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs like Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests only test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they are not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with the programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they take them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, this means that nothing is done when they do it wrong. This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the Texas Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming its products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were not accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The demonstrated the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is now in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible accessibility. The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The question is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does ACM insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive forms and documents. The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into this all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But that doesn't mean they know how to do it. You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon an accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you must do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online seminars how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents videos from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast of flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no regard for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule was in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on automatically. So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. The first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited for W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium) compliance is a test to determine if your website's code is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to determine if their IT people know what they are doing. Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace them with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up webpages, make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies and states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be fixing bad code with other bad code. IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot do it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, the Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other way around. Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not braille. I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS and Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies who think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are English only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act? There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can make SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not have all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most of SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot of time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think SSA could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already familiar with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT people that things are possible because after all, they run the agency. Sincerely, James G. Pepper From timandvickie at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 18:11:09 2008 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:11:09 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: eh sadly it is common practice for the government to make itself and any companies it contracts with exempt from satuatory requirments that effect other entities. SSA sucks with "notices" all around. I just got a letter from them telling me they want me at their office for my annual review TOMMORROW. Kinda short notice dont you think? No time to arrange transporation.> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:26:58 -0500> From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question> > When doing some other review of the Social Security Act, I noticed that> there are provisions requiring special treatment of notices blind> recipients of Social Security Disability Insurance and Supplemental> Security Income receive from the agency. The provisions seem to permit> the poor notice the agency provides. Right now the agency will not> provide Braille notices, but they can read notices by phone, notify a> recipient by sending the notice as a certified letter or something else.> All of these have substantial challenges if we assume the goal is to> actually provide notice. I am sure though that the agency will probably> say it is following statutory authority. It will be interesting to see> how the court thinks that stacks up to any Section 504 requirements on> the point. My personal feeling is that if the SSA does not have to send> accessible format information, no government entity will have to do so> and I also think that would make a pretty strong argument that private> entities such as banks or credit card issuers do not either. I think,> therefore, that this is a pretty important case.> Jim McCarthy> > -----Original Message-----> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]> On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:07 AM> To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net; blindlaw at nfbnet.org> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question> > Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for> the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested> my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into> that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of> technologies. > I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought> out in California.> > James Pepper> > > On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote:> > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > > that> materials were available in Braille and people could receive> communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I> was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when> it was discontinued.> >> >> > Chuck> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com>> >> >> > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> >> >> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM> >> >> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > in> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not> mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials> yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the> taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people> and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend> shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative> format any time soon.> >> >> > Kathy Hagen> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net>> >> >> > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> >> >> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM> >> >> > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Hello All,> >> >> > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the> impression> >> >> > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights> because > she> >> >> > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > everyone> >> >> > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in> a> >> >> > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires> an> >> >> > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a> visual> >> >> > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of> the> >> >> > CFR that contains such a requirement?> >> >> > Cordially,> >> >> > John> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.> >> >> >> >> >> > Gainesville, FL 32609> >> >> >> >> >> > Phone: (352) 505-6642> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for> > blindlaw:> >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c> om> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for> > blindlaw:> >> >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc> global.net> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for> > blindlaw:> >> >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail> .com> >> >> >> _______________________________________________> blindlaw mailing list> blindlaw at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for> blindlaw:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf> b.org> > _______________________________________________> blindlaw mailing list> blindlaw at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 From mikefry79 at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 19:56:57 2008 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:56:57 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0812081156p7187b3f6wcc3d79989ce9c80e@mail.gmail.com> Sounds like Mr. Pepper knows what he's talking about. I forwarded this email thread to Disability Rights Advocates (DRA). I think DRA is the powerhouse Berekly botuiqe law firm that prosecuted the Target accessibility case. They may find this information useful. Mike On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:06 AM, James Pepper wrote: > Charles and Jim: > SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be > accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do > with > their charter, they are required to be accessible. > > Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with the > forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social > Security > Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for the > blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more > concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This confuses > the issue. > > What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you can > walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the content > with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there in > front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by the > IT > people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test their > pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by the > blind. > > It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you go > through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it is > not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible or > it > isn't there is no in between. > > IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs like > Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests only > test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they are > not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for > compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with the > programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they take > them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, > this > means that nothing is done when they do it wrong. > > This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the Texas > Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming > its > products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were > not > accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The demonstrated > the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is now > in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible > accessibility. > > The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows > that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The question > is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does ACM > insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive forms > and documents. > > The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is > accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into this > all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge > their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But > that doesn't mean they know how to do it. > > You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon an > accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as > fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you > must > do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online > seminars > how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents videos > from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from > showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast of > flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no regard > for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule was > in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on > automatically. > > So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. > The > first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited for > W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in > minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites > should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium) > compliance is a test to determine if your website's code > is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write > code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to > determine if their IT people know what they are doing. > > Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they > actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace them > with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up webpages, > make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies and > states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be > fixing bad code with other bad code. > > IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they > control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their > jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot do > it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The > problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, > the > Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other way > around. > > Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal > protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not > braille. > > I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS and > Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies > who > think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are > English > only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish > descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act? > > There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do > it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix > this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can make > SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and > Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not have > all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most of > SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot of > time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF > format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think > SSA > could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and > integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already > familiar > with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT people > that things are possible because after all, they run the agency. > > Sincerely, > > James G. Pepper > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 20:14:32 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:14:32 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: <20081208201432.GA28827@yumi.bluecherry.net> James, I think you're confusing the issue here by trying to mix websites with paper documents. The issue being discussed is that SSA does not believe it is required to provide paper documents, notices, and other mailings in a format that a blind person can read without assistance. Jim's assessment is that if the SSA can successfully argue that it is not required under the law to provide things such as award letters or notices of changes in an accessible format, then we're hard pressed to argue that banks, utility companies, and others who currently already do should be expected to continue the practice. From my own experience, the dot-matrix printed bill I receive from my electric company usually does not scan very well. If the SSA can't be bothered to send out accessible notices, why should my city be expected to send out a bill I can read, with or without technology? Jim is right, this is an important issue. More important because the usual target population for SSA are seniors who tend to lose eyesight and not have access to all of the wonderful scanners and other toys you and I get to play with. Their website is a whole 'nother issue. It basically works, most of the time, for some version of "works" that involves it being as difficult to deal with as anything related to the SSA. At least they're consistent. Joseph On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 12:06:35PM -0600, James Pepper wrote: >Charles and Jim: >SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be >accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do with >their charter, they are required to be accessible. > >Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with the >forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social Security >Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for the >blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more >concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This confuses >the issue. > >What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you can >walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the content >with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there in >front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by the IT >people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test their >pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by the >blind. > >It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you go >through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it is >not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible or it >isn't there is no in between. > >IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs like >Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests only >test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they are >not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for >compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with the >programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they take >them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, this >means that nothing is done when they do it wrong. > >This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the Texas >Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming its >products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were not >accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The demonstrated >the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is now >in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible >accessibility. > >The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows >that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The question >is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does ACM >insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive forms >and documents. > >The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is >accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into this >all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge >their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But >that doesn't mean they know how to do it. > >You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon an >accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as >fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you must >do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online seminars >how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents videos >from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from >showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast of >flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no regard >for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule was >in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on >automatically. > >So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. The >first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited for >W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in >minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites >should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium) >compliance is a test to determine if your website's code >is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write >code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to >determine if their IT people know what they are doing. > >Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they >actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace them >with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up webpages, >make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies and >states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be >fixing bad code with other bad code. > >IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they >control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their >jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot do >it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The >problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, the >Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other way >around. > >Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal >protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not >braille. > >I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS and >Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies who >think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are English >only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish >descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act? > >There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do >it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix >this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can make >SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and >Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not have >all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most of >SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot of >time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF >format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think SSA >could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and >integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already familiar >with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT people >that things are possible because after all, they run the agency. > >Sincerely, > >James G. Pepper >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From craig.borne at dot.gov Mon Dec 8 20:43:42 2008 From: craig.borne at dot.gov (craig.borne at dot.gov) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:43:42 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com><33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E13F23D@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> Section 508 is strictly "Electronic and Information Technology" and would not apply in this situation. More likely, Section 504, which applies to program access, would be applicable here. Of course, access to the SSA website, electronic documentation, and other technological apparatus is important, but if the SSA doesn't send electronic notices to clients, then they don't necessarily have to do it for blind clients under Section 508. Section 504 is a totally different matter, one that Jim discussed perfectly. Best, Craig Craig Borne, Esq. NHTSA/DOT (202) 493-0627 craig.borne at dot.gov -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Pepper Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:07 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question Charles and Jim: SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do with their charter, they are required to be accessible. Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with the forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social Security Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for the blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This confuses the issue. What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you can walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the content with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there in front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by the IT people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test their pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by the blind. It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you go through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it is not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible or it isn't there is no in between. IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs like Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests only test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they are not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with the programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they take them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, this means that nothing is done when they do it wrong. This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the Texas Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming its products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were not accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The demonstrated the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is now in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible accessibility. The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The question is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does ACM insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive forms and documents. The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into this all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But that doesn't mean they know how to do it. You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon an accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you must do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online seminars how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents videos from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast of flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no regard for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule was in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on automatically. So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. The first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited for W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium) compliance is a test to determine if your website's code is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to determine if their IT people know what they are doing. Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace them with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up webpages, make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies and states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be fixing bad code with other bad code. IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot do it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, the Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other way around. Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not braille. I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS and Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies who think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are English only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act? There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can make SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not have all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most of SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot of time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think SSA could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already familiar with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT people that things are possible because after all, they run the agency. Sincerely, James G. Pepper _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/craig.borne%40 dot.gov From timandvickie at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 21:17:14 2008 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:17:14 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: kinda off subject of the forms, but it drives me crazy how many people post forms on their sites, but dont seem smart enough to make the forms fillable electronically. Its not a very hard thing to do takes all of about 5 minutes. I used to build forms for the Army so I have experience doing it. I think i might start a business jsut building forms for companies lol.> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:06:35 -0600> From: b75205 at gmail.com> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question> > Charles and Jim:> SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be> accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do with> their charter, they are required to be accessible.> > Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with the> forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social Security> Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for the> blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more> concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This confuses> the issue.> > What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you can> walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the content> with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there in> front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by the IT> people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test their> pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by the> blind.> > It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you go> through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it is> not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible or it> isn't there is no in between.> > IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs like> Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests only> test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they are> not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for> compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with the> programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they take> them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, this> means that nothing is done when they do it wrong.> > This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the Texas> Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming its> products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were not> accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The demonstrated> the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is now> in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible> accessibility.> > The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows> that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The question> is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does ACM> insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive forms> and documents.> > The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is> accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into this> all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge> their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But> that doesn't mean they know how to do it.> > You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon an> accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as> fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you must> do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online seminars> how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents videos> from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from> showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast of> flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no regard> for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule was> in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on> automatically.> > So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. The> first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited for> W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in> minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites> should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium)> compliance is a test to determine if your website's code> is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write> code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to> determine if their IT people know what they are doing.> > Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they> actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace them> with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up webpages,> make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies and> states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be> fixing bad code with other bad code.> > IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they> control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their> jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot do> it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The> problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, the> Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other way> around.> > Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal> protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not> braille.> > I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS and> Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies who> think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are English> only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish> descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act?> > There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do> it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix> this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can make> SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and> Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not have> all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most of> SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot of> time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF> format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think SSA> could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and> integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already familiar> with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT people> that things are possible because after all, they run the agency.> > Sincerely,> > James G. Pepper> _______________________________________________> blindlaw mailing list> blindlaw at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 8 22:22:04 2008 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 14:22:04 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6746C4E4C4164149BD349285043A7F29@spike> I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of activity regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering readable by screen readers. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > Hi Chuck, > I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in an > accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all hold > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. > Take care, > John > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say that > materials were available in Braille and people could receive > communications > from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm > not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kathleen Hagen" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >> John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients >> in >> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not >> mean > >> that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. >> And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' >> money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they >> provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't >> expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any >> time > >> soon. >> Kathy Hagen >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John " >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >> Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >>> Hello All, >>> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >>> impression >>> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because >>> she >>> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >>> everyone >>> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a >>> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an >>> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual >>> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >>> the >>> CFR that contains such a requirement? >>> Cordially, >>> John >>> >>> >>> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >>> >>> Gainesville, FL 32609 >>> >>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob > al.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From RWayne1 at nyc.rr.com Tue Dec 9 01:57:58 2008 From: RWayne1 at nyc.rr.com (Ray Wayne) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:57:58 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question References: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: <007701c959a1$8f8785c0$5451f443@nyc.rr.com> I would agree with John, but for one factor--some of these notices are time-sensitive. For instance, as I recall, if they terminate your benefits, you have 60 days to request reconsideration. However, in order to receive "Aid Pending," you must make the request within ten days. Otherwise your benefits will be stopped until the matter is resolved, which could take months or years. Many blind people on fixed incomes probably do not have scanners or KNFB Reader Mobiles, and thus may not learn the contents of their print mail on a daily basis. And we all know how unreliable telephone messages can be. Ray Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "McCarthy, Jim" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:26 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > When doing some other review of the Social Security Act, I noticed that > there are provisions requiring special treatment of notices blind > recipients of Social Security Disability Insurance and Supplemental > Security Income receive from the agency. The provisions seem to permit > the poor notice the agency provides. Right now the agency will not > provide Braille notices, but they can read notices by phone, notify a > recipient by sending the notice as a certified letter or something else. > All of these have substantial challenges if we assume the goal is to > actually provide notice. I am sure though that the agency will probably > say it is following statutory authority. It will be interesting to see > how the court thinks that stacks up to any Section 504 requirements on > the point. My personal feeling is that if the SSA does not have to send > accessible format information, no government entity will have to do so > and I also think that would make a pretty strong argument that private > entities such as banks or credit card issuers do not either. I think, > therefore, that this is a pretty important case. > Jim McCarthy > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:07 AM > To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net; blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for > the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested > my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into > that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of > technologies. > I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought > out in California. > > James Pepper > > > On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > > that > materials were available in Braille and people could receive > communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I > was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when > it was discontinued. > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > in > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not > mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials > yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the > taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people > and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend > shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative > format any time soon. > > > > > > Kathy Hagen > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > impression > > > > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights > because > she > > > > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > everyone > > > > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in > a > > > > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires > an > > > > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a > visual > > > > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of > the > > > > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c > om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > global.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail > .com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf > b.org > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c om From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 9 02:35:07 2008 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:35:07 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question References: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> <007701c959a1$8f8785c0$5451f443@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <00e701c959a6$c04f8590$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> I wonder if another solution to this wouldn't be a top-down one: Contact President Elect Obama's administration and state the case that blind people could be put to work as Braillists for the SSA and other government entities. This project seems to me to parallel the infrastructure initiative that is the backbone, apparently, of Obama's economy boosting plan, and addressing the unemployment issue. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Wayne" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >I would agree with John, but for one factor--some of these notices are > time-sensitive. For instance, as I recall, if they terminate your > benefits, > you have 60 days to request reconsideration. However, in order to receive > "Aid Pending," you must make the request within ten days. Otherwise your > benefits will be stopped until the matter is resolved, which could take > months or years. Many blind people on fixed incomes probably do not have > scanners or KNFB Reader Mobiles, and thus may not learn the contents of > their print mail on a daily basis. And we all know how unreliable > telephone > messages can be. > Ray Wayne > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "McCarthy, Jim" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:26 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >> When doing some other review of the Social Security Act, I noticed that >> there are provisions requiring special treatment of notices blind >> recipients of Social Security Disability Insurance and Supplemental >> Security Income receive from the agency. The provisions seem to permit >> the poor notice the agency provides. Right now the agency will not >> provide Braille notices, but they can read notices by phone, notify a >> recipient by sending the notice as a certified letter or something else. >> All of these have substantial challenges if we assume the goal is to >> actually provide notice. I am sure though that the agency will probably >> say it is following statutory authority. It will be interesting to see >> how the court thinks that stacks up to any Section 504 requirements on >> the point. My personal feeling is that if the SSA does not have to send >> accessible format information, no government entity will have to do so >> and I also think that would make a pretty strong argument that private >> entities such as banks or credit card issuers do not either. I think, >> therefore, that this is a pretty important case. >> Jim McCarthy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:07 AM >> To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net; blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for >> the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested >> my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into >> that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of >> technologies. >> I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought >> out in California. >> >> James Pepper >> >> >> On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say >> > that >> materials were available in Braille and people could receive >> communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I >> was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when >> it was discontinued. >> > >> > >> > Chuck >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> >> > >> > >> > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> > >> > >> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM >> > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients >> > in >> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not >> mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials >> yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the >> taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people >> and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend >> shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative >> format any time soon. >> > >> > >> > Kathy Hagen >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> >> > >> > >> > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> > >> > >> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >> > >> > >> > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hello All, >> > >> > >> > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >> impression >> > >> > >> > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights >> because >> she >> > >> > >> > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >> everyone >> > >> > >> > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in >> a >> > >> > >> > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires >> an >> > >> > >> > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a >> visual >> > >> > >> > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >> the >> > >> > >> > CFR that contains such a requirement? >> > >> > >> > Cordially, >> > >> > >> > John >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Gainesville, FL 32609 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > >> > >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> blindlaw: >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c >> om >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > >> > >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> blindlaw: >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc >> global.net >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > >> > >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> blindlaw: >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail >> .com >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf >> b.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net From b75205 at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 03:13:29 2008 From: b75205 at gmail.com (b75205 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 03:13:29 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question Message-ID: <00221532c8ac0de59d045d948728@google.com> I tried that, they are just as clueless as the republicans. On Dec 8, 2008 8:35pm, Mark BurningHawk wrote: > I wonder if another solution to this wouldn't be a top-down one: Contact President Elect Obama's administration and state the case that blind people could be put to work as Braillists for the SSA and other government entities. This project seems to me to parallel the infrastructure initiative that is the backbone, apparently, of Obama's economy boosting plan, and addressing the unemployment issue. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Wayne" RWayne1 at nyc.rr.com> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:57 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > I would agree with John, but for one factor--some of these notices are > > > time-sensitive. For instance, as I recall, if they terminate your benefits, > > > you have 60 days to request reconsideration. However, in order to receive > > > "Aid Pending," you must make the request within ten days. Otherwise your > > > benefits will be stopped until the matter is resolved, which could take > > > months or years. Many blind people on fixed incomes probably do not have > > > scanners or KNFB Reader Mobiles, and thus may not learn the contents of > > > their print mail on a daily basis. And we all know how unreliable telephone > > > messages can be. > > > Ray Wayne > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "McCarthy, Jim" JMcCarthy at nfb.org> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:26 AM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > When doing some other review of the Social Security Act, I noticed that > > > there are provisions requiring special treatment of notices blind > > > recipients of Social Security Disability Insurance and Supplemental > > > Security Income receive from the agency. The provisions seem to permit > > > the poor notice the agency provides. Right now the agency will not > > > provide Braille notices, but they can read notices by phone, notify a > > > recipient by sending the notice as a certified letter or something else. > > > All of these have substantial challenges if we assume the goal is to > > > actually provide notice. I am sure though that the agency will probably > > > say it is following statutory authority. It will be interesting to see > > > how the court thinks that stacks up to any Section 504 requirements on > > > the point. My personal feeling is that if the SSA does not have to send > > > accessible format information, no government entity will have to do so > > > and I also think that would make a pretty strong argument that private > > > entities such as banks or credit card issuers do not either. I think, > > > therefore, that this is a pretty important case. > > > Jim McCarthy > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > > > On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:07 AM > > > To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net; blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for > > > the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested > > > my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into > > > that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of > > > technologies. > > > I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought > > > out in California. > > > > > > James Pepper > > > > > > > > > On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > > > > that > > > materials were available in Braille and people could receive > > > communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I > > > was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when > > > it was discontinued. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > > > in > > > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not > > > mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials > > > yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the > > > taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people > > > and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend > > > shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative > > > format any time soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kathy Hagen > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > > > > > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > > > impression > > > > > > > > > > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights > > > because > > > she > > > > > > > > > > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > > > everyone > > > > > > > > > > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a > > > visual > > > > > > > > > > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > > > > > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c > > > om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > > > global.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail > > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf > > > b.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c > > > om > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 9 15:25:22 2008 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 07:25:22 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question References: <6746C4E4C4164149BD349285043A7F29@spike> Message-ID: <012a01c95a12$5ac3c3a0$6601a8c0@server> Hi John, Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and I am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully accessible to the blind. The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution to my client's problem. As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a strong constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of activity >regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as >captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering readable >by screen readers. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John " > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >> Hi Chuck, >> I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in an >> accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all >> hold >> blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. >> Take care, >> John >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say that >> materials were available in Braille and people could receive >> communications >> from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. >> I'm >> not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kathleen Hagen" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >>> John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients >>> in >>> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not >>> mean >> >>> that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. >>> And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' >>> money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they >>> provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend >>> shouldn't >>> expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any >>> time >> >>> soon. >>> Kathy Hagen >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "John " >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >>> >>> >>>> Hello All, >>>> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >>>> impression >>>> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because >>>> she >>>> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >>>> everyone >>>> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in >>>> a >>>> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires >>>> an >>>> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a >>>> visual >>>> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >>>> the >>>> CFR that contains such a requirement? >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32609 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob >> al.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From b75205 at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 17:25:39 2008 From: b75205 at gmail.com (b75205 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:25:39 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question Message-ID: <000325574ceaa78bc3045da06e10@google.com> Dennis: The ACB lawsuit is against Social Security and they are the ones doing the "hand holding" as they are concentrating on making everything turned into text but unformatted text or text made from PDF files is usually a mess, especially if it was created using a mac in InDesign and translated into a PDF file on a Windows based computer and then turned into a text file. You see this stuff all the time, and it looks like people just do not care but in reality they did not consider the transition from one format to the other. The NFB lawsuit is great, it finally breaches the gap from the public to the private sector. I tried to do this with the National Voter Registration form by showing that if the states were willing to deny the right to vote to people because they made their voter registration forms incaccessible then we could use the laws of the Voting Rights Act to force Integration under the Civil rights Act of 1964 which enables the 14th Amendment Section 2 to be imposed upon the states if they do not comply, and this would to everyone in the state, not just the public sector. Social Security was required to be accessible to the blind 35 years ago under the Rehabiliation Act of 1973. There is no excuse. They were required to do this in 1998 under Section 508 of the Rehabiliation Act and here is the law. http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3 What we need here is a review of accessibility law and make sure everyone understands that the federal government mandated accessibility years ago and nobody has complied. And they have not complied because IT people refuse to do it. It is that simple. Managers have been told that it is too expensive or that it is impossible. That's Bull. It can be done and it can be done when people make the documents, and the only thing preventing accessibility is the knowledge of how to do it and the pride of IT officials who do not know how to do it and refuse to budge and learn. The Target lawsuit is so out of whack I cannot beleive it. The problem with Target is that they probably are using an old database and so they would have to get a new one. Chances are they have not updated their software. That could be rather expensive but they will have to do it anyway, just for security issues alone. Target has always had a corporate mentality of being able to do anything they want and so when the federal government mandates things to them, they tend to consider it a nuisance and so they are not handling this well at all. You would think that given they just lost the case they would have fixed their site by now, but they haven't. And what is amazing is that it is so easy to do this. Accessibility is easy to those who know how to do it. This is what accessibility gets down to is using new software and having the right people who know how to write code properly create the websites with the idea that accessibility is the prime issue. Many people in IT think that if you make a website standards compliant that that makes it accessible, but you have to put accessibility features into the site. Of coure Targets site is not web standards compliant. No, Target needs to fire its IT People and hire people who will keep them out of lawsuits. The costs of the lawyers and the settlement could have been put into updating their database and hiring people to fix their site. Also if they fix their site they would be able to use it on Cell phones and Iphones. The transition to Web 2 is almost the same requirements to start a website to accessibility, so Target is still in the dark ages of web design. This is such a waste. The reality of Accessibility is that it shows that IT people have no clue what they are doing and they are getting caught. They are getting caught being unprofessional, they are getting caught writing code that is written badly, they are illiterate when it comes to writing computer code. They are leaving their corporations out to dry. James Pepper On Dec 9, 2008 9:25am, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hi John, > > > Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and I am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully accessible to the blind. The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. > > > > > > Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. > > > > > > Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution to my client's problem. > > > > > > As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a strong constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. > > > > > > I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Dennis > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of activity regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering readable by screen readers. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, > > > I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in an > > > accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all hold > > > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. > > > Take care, > > > John > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say that > > > materials were available in Braille and people could receive communications > > > from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm > > > not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > > in > > > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean > > > > > > > > > > that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. > > > And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' > > > money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they > > > provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't > > > expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time > > > > > > > > > > soon. > > > Kathy Hagen > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > > > impression > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because > > > she > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > > > everyone > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of > > > the > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > Cordially, > > > John > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob > > > al.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > From joramsey at cox.net Tue Dec 9 18:47:37 2008 From: joramsey at cox.net (John ) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:47:37 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <012a01c95a12$5ac3c3a0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <6403719F7F0F40C0898B8CDD391222F3@noneeb869fea9a> Hello Dennis, As always, you argument is sound and I was not referring to the Target suit. I am in full agreement with you on that issue. I was referring to the accessible currency suit that is somewhere in the litigation chain. I think that the government will eventually change the currency out of utility if nothing else but arguing that the blind cannot even manage their own money without it being made in different sizes or whatever else is a bit much for me. I am glad to be able to hear from you again Dennis you were a great help and role model for me in law school. Cordially, John Ramsey John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. Gainesville, FL 32609 Phone: (352) 505-6642 -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:25 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question Hi John, Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and I am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully accessible to the blind. The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution to my client's problem. As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a strong constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of >activity >regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as >captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering readable >by screen readers. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John " > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >> Hi Chuck, >> I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in >> an accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's >> all hold blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. >> Take care, >> John >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >> ckrugman at sbcglobal.net >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say >> that materials were available in Braille and people could receive >> communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I >> was growing up. I'm >> not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kathleen Hagen" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >>> John, There is a certified class for blind social security >>> recipients in which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. >>> That does not mean >> >>> that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials >>> yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the >>> taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind >>> people and they provide general materials in braille at least. But >>> your friend shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in >>> alternative format any time >> >>> soon. >>> Kathy Hagen >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "John " >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >>> >>> >>>> Hello All, >>>> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >>>> impression that the Social Security Administration is violating her >>>> rights because she >>>> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >>>> everyone >>>> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in >>>> a >>>> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires >>>> an >>>> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a >>>> visual >>>> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >>>> the >>>> CFR that contains such a requirement? >>>> Cordially, >>>> John >>>> >>>> >>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >>>> >>>> Gainesville, FL 32609 >>>> >>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40 >> q.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglob >> al.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40 >> cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob al.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From fairall at shellworld.net Tue Dec 9 22:11:47 2008 From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:11:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <00221532c8ac0de59d045d948728@google.com> References: <00221532c8ac0de59d045d948728@google.com> Message-ID: Being uneducated on specific disability issues is universal and crosses party lines. On Tue, 9 Dec 2008, b75205 at gmail.com wrote: > I tried that, they are just as clueless as the republicans. > > On Dec 8, 2008 8:35pm, Mark BurningHawk wrote: >> I wonder if another solution to this wouldn't be a top-down one: Contact > President Elect Obama's administration and state the case that blind people > could be put to work as Braillists for the SSA and other government entities. > This project seems to me to parallel the infrastructure initiative that is > the backbone, apparently, of Obama's economy boosting plan, and addressing > the unemployment issue. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Wayne" RWayne1 at nyc.rr.com> >> >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:57 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I would agree with John, but for one factor--some of these notices are >> >> >> time-sensitive. For instance, as I recall, if they terminate your > benefits, >> >> >> you have 60 days to request reconsideration. However, in order to receive >> >> >> "Aid Pending," you must make the request within ten days. Otherwise your >> >> >> benefits will be stopped until the matter is resolved, which could take >> >> >> months or years. Many blind people on fixed incomes probably do not have >> >> >> scanners or KNFB Reader Mobiles, and thus may not learn the contents of >> >> >> their print mail on a daily basis. And we all know how unreliable > telephone >> >> >> messages can be. >> >> >> Ray Wayne >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "McCarthy, Jim" JMcCarthy at nfb.org> >> >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:26 AM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> When doing some other review of the Social Security Act, I noticed that >> >> >> there are provisions requiring special treatment of notices blind >> >> >> recipients of Social Security Disability Insurance and Supplemental >> >> >> Security Income receive from the agency. The provisions seem to permit >> >> >> the poor notice the agency provides. Right now the agency will not >> >> >> provide Braille notices, but they can read notices by phone, notify a >> >> >> recipient by sending the notice as a certified letter or something else. >> >> >> All of these have substantial challenges if we assume the goal is to >> >> >> actually provide notice. I am sure though that the agency will probably >> >> >> say it is following statutory authority. It will be interesting to see >> >> >> how the court thinks that stacks up to any Section 504 requirements on >> >> >> the point. My personal feeling is that if the SSA does not have to send >> >> >> accessible format information, no government entity will have to do so >> >> >> and I also think that would make a pretty strong argument that private >> >> >> entities such as banks or credit card issuers do not either. I think, >> >> >> therefore, that this is a pretty important case. >> >> >> Jim McCarthy >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> >> >> On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com >> >> >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:07 AM >> >> >> To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net; blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> Actually the case is in court right now, it is the American Council for >> >> >> the Blind versus the Social Security Adminstration. Charles I suggested >> >> >> my format for the SSA forms but the lawyers did not want to get into >> >> >> that and they are going for daisy and audio format and other types of >> >> >> technologies. >> >> >> I think it is the Oregon Disability Rights group but it is being fought >> >> >> out in California. >> >> >> >> >> >> James Pepper >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 8, 2008 1:40am, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> >> >> > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say >> >> >> > that >> >> >> materials were available in Braille and people could receive >> >> >> communications from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I >> >> >> was growing up. I'm not sure what the extent of this was or if or when >> >> >> it was discontinued. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Chuck >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients >> >> >> > in >> >> >> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not >> >> >> mean that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials >> >> >> yet. And they probably won't for some time while they spend the >> >> >> taxpayers' money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people >> >> >> and they provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend >> >> >> shouldn't expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative >> >> >> format any time soon. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Kathy Hagen >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Hello All, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >> >> >> impression >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights >> >> >> because >> >> >> she >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >> >> >> everyone >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in >> >> >> a >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires >> >> >> an >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a >> >> >> visual >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >> >> >> the >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > CFR that contains such a requirement? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Cordially, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > John >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c >> >> >> om >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc >> >> >> global.net >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail >> >> >> .com >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf >> >> >> b.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c >> >> >> om >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40shellworld.net > > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 10 00:39:10 2008 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:39:10 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <012a01c95a12$5ac3c3a0$6601a8c0@server> References: <6746C4E4C4164149BD349285043A7F29@spike> <012a01c95a12$5ac3c3a0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <1E18240147DE4D83B087701C65339FCF@spike> I think the ACB handholding case referred to was the case involving the Treasury Department regardeing accessible currency. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > Hi John, > Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and I > am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in > practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you > are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually > launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability > Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did > this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no > problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully > accessible to the blind. The Target action can of course be argued as > "hand holding," since there are alternatives for reading any website, such > as using a reader, or the free market solution of simply shopping at a > store which demonstrates that it wants the business of blind people by > offering an accessible website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. > After all, everything is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the > accessibility alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. > > Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible > communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because > unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many > shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are forced > to interact with the Social Security Administration. > > Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind recipients > to tell them about any problems or written communications being mailed to > them, so we are not asking them to do something new or unworkable. I know > for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I represented someone > before the Social Security Administration, and this procedure was already > in place and was offered as part of the solution to my client's problem. > > As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a strong > constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is > the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. > It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I am > confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they result > from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. > > I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. > > All the best, > > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > >>I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of activity >>regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as >>captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering readable >>by screen readers. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John " >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >>> Hi Chuck, >>> I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in an >>> accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all >>> hold >>> blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. >>> Take care, >>> John >>> >>> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >>> >>> Gainesville, FL 32609 >>> >>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net >>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >>> >>> >>> Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say >>> that >>> materials were available in Braille and people could receive >>> communications >>> from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. >>> I'm >>> not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. >>> Chuck >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kathleen Hagen" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >>> >>> >>>> John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients >>>> in >>>> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not >>>> mean >>> >>>> that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. >>>> And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' >>>> money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they >>>> provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend >>>> shouldn't >>>> expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any >>>> time >>> >>>> soon. >>>> Kathy Hagen >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "John " >>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hello All, >>>>> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >>>>> impression >>>>> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights >>>>> because >>>>> she >>>>> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >>>>> everyone >>>>> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in >>>>> a >>>>> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires >>>>> an >>>>> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a >>>>> visual >>>>> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >>>>> the >>>>> CFR that contains such a requirement? >>>>> Cordially, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >>>>> >>>>> Gainesville, FL 32609 >>>>> >>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob >>> al.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From leadinglabbie at mpmail.net Wed Dec 10 07:57:07 2008 From: leadinglabbie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 01:57:07 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] EEOC plans to rush regs for ADA Amendments Act Message-ID: I have been asked to circulate the following: David Andrews Hello Dave, I received the following from the Justice for All listserv. I thought I would pass it on to you so that you could forward it to any NFB lists you deem appropriate. Angie * * * Immediate Action Necessary * * * Tell EEOC Not to Rush Through 11th Hour ADA Amendments Act Regulations AAPD staff have learned that the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has scheduled a Commission meeting for this Thursday, December 11 at 2 p.m. to discuss regulations interpreting the new ADA Amendments Act that was signed into law by President Bush on September 25. We have learned that one of the potential items for discussion is a new "Interim Final Rule" interpreting the new ADA Amendments Act that would take effect concurrent with the statute's effective date on January 1, 2009. If the Commission decides to issue an Interim Final Rule, that means that their regulations would take effect BEFORE anyone outside the commission has had an opportunity to review and comment on them. This is not acceptable. Typically, administrative agencies issue a notice of proposed rulemaking and give stakeholders an opportunity to comment on proposed regulations before they take effect. We believe that it is essential that the disability community and broader civil rights coalition that worked hard to get the ADA Amendments Act signed into law have an opportunity to see and comment on the new regulations before they take effect, and we are concerned that the Commission would try to rush through a final rule with no public comment at the end of an administration. Call today to let the EEOC Chairperson, Naomi Churchill Earp, and the Legal Counsel, Reed Russell, know that we want an opportunity to review the proposed regulations BEFORE they take effect. The ADA Amendments Act was the product of long negotiations and discussions with multiple stakeholders, and it is important that the regulations benefit from the same kind of broad-based input. The new law repudiates an overly narrow approach to the definition of disability that had been applied by the U.S. Supreme Court AND the EEOC, and we don't want to see the new regulations inadvertently create new problems for charging parties with disabilities and employers. Congress did not instruct EEOC to issue regulations before the new law's effective date, and there is no reason for the regulatory process to move forward without the typical notice and opportunity to comment. Our message to EEOC is simple: Don't issue a rule before we have an opportunity to be heard. Nothing about us without us. To reach the Chair's office, call 202 663-4002. To reach the Legal Counsel, call 202 663-4609. From gwunder at earthlink.net Wed Dec 10 09:08:34 2008 From: gwunder at earthlink.net (Gary Wunder) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:08:34 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Diane McGeorge E-mail Reminder-Washington Seminar Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: McCarthy, Jim Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 3:27 PM Subject: Diane McGeorge E-mail Reminder-Washington Seminar Fellow Federationists: The following message comes from Diane McGeorge who organizes much of the logistics of Washington Seminar. The time is growing closer than you might think. Our 2009 Washington Seminar will run from Sunday, February 8 to Wednesday, February 11. "Please get your reservations in as soon as possible." Our deadline for hotel reservations is January 5, 2009, which is only about one month off. Following is the information which I need to have to assure you of a room at the Holiday Inn. The address of the Holiday Inn Capitol is 550 C Street SW, Washington, DC 20024. 1. First of all I will need to have the names of the persons in the room. Please spell the first and last name of each person if you make the reservation by phone. You may do so by calling: (303) 778-1130, extension 219, or email (see below); and 2. I will need to have your arrival date and departure date. If people are sharing the room and their arrival and departure dates are different from yours, please be sure to indicate that; and 3. I will need to know if you wish a smoking or a non-smoking room. Also, if you have any special requirements, please advise. For example, if you require an accessible room, please include that information. If you wish to have a roll-away bed in the room, please let me know. If you request a roll-away bed, there will be an additional $15 charge per night; and 4. If you make your reservation by phone, and if you have an e-mail address, please leave that address so that we may send you confirmation that your reservation was received and processed. If you have no e-mail address, then please leave a telephone number so that I may call you back with a confirmation. You may make your reservations by e-mail by sending your request to Lisa Bonderson. Lisa's address is: lbonderson at cocenter.org. Either Lisa or I will send you a confirmation. The hotel rates are $154 per night for single, double, triple, or quad. There is an additional 14.5% hotel tax each night. When you check in you must be prepared to cover at least the first night of your stay with either a credit card or check; and then arrange to pay the balance by presenting a credit card or writing a check for the remainder of the cost. If state delegations will be paying for members with one check or one credit card, please advise Ed Cruz in the Holiday Inn Capitol accounting department prior to your arrival and he will make special arrangements for your delegation. It is also very advisable to supply to Mr. Cruz a list of the names of persons your delegation may plan to cover. It would also be advisable for you to supply me with the same list prior to arrival so that we will all be on the same page and this will lessen problems. Mr. Cruz has always been very helpful. Remember please, the deadline is January 5, 2009. There will be a number of special meetings during the seminar and you will want to watch the NFB Website for special announcements. The Great Gathering-In meeting will be held on Sunday, February 8, at 5 p.m. You certainly don't want to miss that. I hope this answers all of your questions. I look forward to seeing all of you in D.C. in February. Have a blessed holiday season. Diane McGeorge DM/wb From gwunder at earthlink.net Wed Dec 10 09:09:14 2008 From: gwunder at earthlink.net (Gary Wunder) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:09:14 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Test at Washington Seminar Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Braille Certification To: Louise Walch Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:42 PM Subject: Braille Test at Washington Seminar Dear NFB State Presidents, Please find attached a flyer announcing that testing for the National Certification in Literary Braille will be held on the Saturday prior to our Washington Seminar. Please pass this information along to your membership and others you think might be interested. Thanks in advance. -Louise Louise G. Walch NBPCB Coordinator 210-464-6144 Braille at nbpcb.org www.nbpcb.org ----- Braille Test at Washington Seminar Feb 7, 2009 THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) As you may be aware, the National Literary Braille Competency Test (NLBCT) of the National Library Service (NLS) has been transferred to the administration of the National Blindness Professional Certification Board (NBPCB). With the NLBCT as its cornerstone, the NBPCB has established the National Certification in Literary Braille (NCLB), which is a complete professional credential that requires recertification on a five year cycle. Individuals who were certified with the NLBCT prior to 2006 will need to retest through the NBPCB; however, the initial fee may be waived if the applicant can show proof of original NLBCT credential. The NCLB is currently the only nationally recognized certification in literary Braille. The examination has not been substantially changed from its earlier version once administered by the NLS, however a five year recertification requirement has been instituted in the interest of maintaining high standards. The exam is not aimed at transcribers. Rather, it is a valid test of a person's ability to competently read, write, and understand contracted, literary Braille, and is being targeted to all individuals who teach Braille professionally, and/or those seeking to be credentialed in this area. The next scheduled exam open for certification and recertification in 2009 is: Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009 Time: 8:00am-5:00pm (Doors close 8:30am) Location: Holiday Inn Capitol (Columbia II) 550 C Street SW Washington, DC 20024 Cost: $250 combined application/testing fee Deadline: Sunday, January 4, 2009 (or $275 late registration January 5-25) Subsequent NCLB examinations will be convened wherever an appropriate venue can be procured, and sufficient applicant numbers make it possible. Please contact the NBPCB for more details. To apply online go to: http://www.nbpcb.org/nclb/application/ or to download the NCLB Candidate Guidelines please visit: http://www.nbpcb.org/nclb/ For additional information please visit the NBPCB website at: www.nbpcb.org, call the NBPCB office at (318) 257-4554, or contact Louise Walch, NBPCB Coordinator, at: braille at nbpcb.org. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Flyer NCLB DC1.doc Type: application/msword Size: 31744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stephanie_enyart at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 22:52:06 2008 From: stephanie_enyart at yahoo.com (Stephanie Enyart) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:52:06 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Registration is now open for RebLaw! Message-ID: <000c01c95b19$eda9ad80$94f5e8a9@DF5R2QD1> PLEASE FORWARD widely and POST PUBLICLY in your school, institution, or community Registration is NOW OPEN for the 15th Annual Rebellious Lawyering Conference, February 20-22, 2009 Featuring Keynote Speakers: Van Jones Founding President of Green For All and Co-Founder of the Ella Baker Center For Human Rights and Stephen Bright President and Senior Counsel, Southern Center for Human Rights Hello Rebel! You are invited to the 15th Annual Rebellious Lawyering Conference, which will take place on the weekend of February 20-22, 2009. Last year, we brought hundreds of practitioners, law students, and community activists to New Haven to discuss progressive strategies for social change within and without the law, and we're excited to do it again! In addition to the two keynote speakers, RebLaw will feature numerous panels and workshops, along with opportunities to socialize and network with rebellious folks from all around. We have posted descriptions of the panels on our website and will continue to update with panel speakers and schedule information as it becomes available. For registration and other information, please visit our website: www.law.yale.edu/reblaw You can also sign up on the website to receive FREE HOUSING for the weekend in New Haven on the spare beds, couches and floors of local friendly, rebellious law students. If you are interested in helping to further publicize this conference among a community of practitioners, law students, community activists or other interested people that you know, PLEASE DO! And also get in touch with rebellious.law.publicity at gmail.com Financial note: If you are affiliated with a law school or other institution, it may provide funding for the registration and travel costs to conferences - inquire with your administration. From davidandloristayer at verizon.net Thu Dec 11 09:15:30 2008 From: davidandloristayer at verizon.net (David R. Stayer) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 03:15:30 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] The homeless blind. Message-ID: I have been asked to circulate the following: Please reply to the e-mail address below as he is not subscribed to all the lists to which this is being posted. David Andrews From: "David R. Stayer" Shalom. I am chair of the Social Services Committee on our newly formed Commission for the Blind and Visually Handicapped Executive Board in New York. Our committee is trying to ascertain whether states track the homeless blind and visually impaired. Anyy data you could furnish would help us in recommending to the Commission for the Blind. I cannot find any data for New York and wonder how other states handle this population. Each day is a precious gift. David R. Stayer, LCSW davidandloristayer at verizon.net No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: 12/8/2008 9:38 AM From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 16:21:36 2008 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:21:36 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] The homeless blind. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Census doesn't even track the blind. It is terrible. I think they do not want to be caught not caring for the blind so they ignore the figures. The AFB, the NFB and the AAPD all have different figures on the number of the blind in this country, homeless or not. If they did track these numbers every state would be in violation of the Civil Rights Act and so the best way to avoid any trouble is to not count the blind, put them in the class of being disabled and forget about it. James Pepper On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 3:15 AM, David R. Stayer < davidandloristayer at verizon.net> wrote: > I have been asked to circulate the following: > Please reply to the e-mail address below as he is not subscribed to all the > lists to which this is being posted. > > David Andrews > > > From: "David R. Stayer" > Shalom. I am chair of the Social Services Committee on our newly formed > Commission for the Blind and Visually Handicapped Executive Board in New > York. Our committee is trying to ascertain whether states track the > homeless blind and visually impaired. Anyy data you could furnish would > help us in recommending to the Commission for the Blind. I cannot find any > data for New York and wonder how other states handle this population. > Each day is a precious gift. > David R. Stayer, LCSW > davidandloristayer at verizon.net > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: 12/8/2008 > 9:38 AM > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From mikefry79 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 17:24:59 2008 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:24:59 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] The homeless blind. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c58e54a0812110924t252522f0i4a81e060176d3134@mail.gmail.com> I have no information to directly answer this question, however, I'm compelled to give you my thoughts on the subject because I think it will help you. It's doubtful that there are appreciable amounts of totally blind homeless people, though there are likely a few, since sustaining a homeless life style and being blind is nearly unimaginable because blindness is such a debilitating disability that utilizing the resources of society are necessary for survival. If there are significant numbers of blind homeless people, I'd be surprised and the U.S. would not be the country I thought it was, my observations suggest no correlation between disfiguring or catastrophic disability and homelessness in wealthier countries. Where as in poor countries, like China, nearly all the homeless and beggars were disfigured, maimed, or suffered a seriously noticeable disability. The inhumanity of having a significant population of blind homeless people would be shockingly surreal. On the other hand it would not surprise me in the least if a significant number of homeless people are visually impaired, falling on that spectrum of impairment ranging from 20/300 acuity to 20/60 visual acuity. This population is underserved by society. They are unable to obtain any cushy government jobs such as for example firefighter, police officer, paramedic, or severe in any branch of the armed forces. Moreover, they suffer academically because their disability is not properly accommodated. Further, it is a symptom of our sick uneducated society that these are the contemporary unfortunate souls. Rather, than being poor peasants united by circumstance, poor government, drought, weak physical countenance as with other unfortunates in history this lot has nothing in common except they lost the genetic lottery. They are weaker than the weakest functioning members of society. Cultural values have changed a lot in the last fifty years, and now it seems that people with this type of disability find themselves on the low end of the societal totem pole. I doubt you'll find any usefully statistics on the subject. Regardless, I sincerely hope that you can help them. Mike On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 1:15 AM, David R. Stayer wrote: > I have been asked to circulate the following: > Please reply to the e-mail address below as he is not subscribed to all the > lists to which this is being posted. > > David Andrews > > > From: "David R. Stayer" > Shalom. I am chair of the Social Services Committee on our newly formed > Commission for the Blind and Visually Handicapped Executive Board in New > York. Our committee is trying to ascertain whether states track the > homeless blind and visually impaired. Anyy data you could furnish would > help us in recommending to the Commission for the Blind. I cannot find any > data for New York and wonder how other states handle this population. > Each day is a precious gift. > David R. Stayer, LCSW > davidandloristayer at verizon.net > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: 12/8/2008 > 9:38 AM > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From JMcCarthy at nfb.org Thu Dec 11 20:21:14 2008 From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org (McCarthy, Jim) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:21:14 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <000325574ceaa78bc3045da06e10@google.com> Message-ID: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA75401468FFD@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Maybe someone is closer to the case than am I, but my understanding was that the ACB and others are concerned with paper notices an dnot with web access. One can imagine a day when we can access social security notices from our personal accounts on the web but so far the agency has not moved to that sort of aproach. Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:26 PM To: Dennis Clark; blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question Dennis: The ACB lawsuit is against Social Security and they are the ones doing the "hand holding" as they are concentrating on making everything turned into text but unformatted text or text made from PDF files is usually a mess, especially if it was created using a mac in InDesign and translated into a PDF file on a Windows based computer and then turned into a text file. You see this stuff all the time, and it looks like people just do not care but in reality they did not consider the transition from one format to the other. The NFB lawsuit is great, it finally breaches the gap from the public to the private sector. I tried to do this with the National Voter Registration form by showing that if the states were willing to deny the right to vote to people because they made their voter registration forms incaccessible then we could use the laws of the Voting Rights Act to force Integration under the Civil rights Act of 1964 which enables the 14th Amendment Section 2 to be imposed upon the states if they do not comply, and this would to everyone in the state, not just the public sector. Social Security was required to be accessible to the blind 35 years ago under the Rehabiliation Act of 1973. There is no excuse. They were required to do this in 1998 under Section 508 of the Rehabiliation Act and here is the law. http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3 What we need here is a review of accessibility law and make sure everyone understands that the federal government mandated accessibility years ago and nobody has complied. And they have not complied because IT people refuse to do it. It is that simple. Managers have been told that it is too expensive or that it is impossible. That's Bull. It can be done and it can be done when people make the documents, and the only thing preventing accessibility is the knowledge of how to do it and the pride of IT officials who do not know how to do it and refuse to budge and learn. The Target lawsuit is so out of whack I cannot beleive it. The problem with Target is that they probably are using an old database and so they would have to get a new one. Chances are they have not updated their software. That could be rather expensive but they will have to do it anyway, just for security issues alone. Target has always had a corporate mentality of being able to do anything they want and so when the federal government mandates things to them, they tend to consider it a nuisance and so they are not handling this well at all. You would think that given they just lost the case they would have fixed their site by now, but they haven't. And what is amazing is that it is so easy to do this. Accessibility is easy to those who know how to do it. This is what accessibility gets down to is using new software and having the right people who know how to write code properly create the websites with the idea that accessibility is the prime issue. Many people in IT think that if you make a website standards compliant that that makes it accessible, but you have to put accessibility features into the site. Of coure Targets site is not web standards compliant. No, Target needs to fire its IT People and hire people who will keep them out of lawsuits. The costs of the lawyers and the settlement could have been put into updating their database and hiring people to fix their site. Also if they fix their site they would be able to use it on Cell phones and Iphones. The transition to Web 2 is almost the same requirements to start a website to accessibility, so Target is still in the dark ages of web design. This is such a waste. The reality of Accessibility is that it shows that IT people have no clue what they are doing and they are getting caught. They are getting caught being unprofessional, they are getting caught writing code that is written badly, they are illiterate when it comes to writing computer code. They are leaving their corporations out to dry. James Pepper On Dec 9, 2008 9:25am, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hi John, > > > Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and > I am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully accessible to the blind. The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. > > > > > > Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. > > > > > > Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution to my client's problem. > > > > > > As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a > strong constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. > > > > > > I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Dennis > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of > activity regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering readable by screen readers. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, > > > I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in > an > > > accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all > hold > > > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. > > > Take care, > > > John > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > that > > > materials were available in Braille and people could receive communications > > > from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. I'm > > > not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was discontinued. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > > in > > > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not mean > > > > > > > > > > that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials yet. > > > And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' > > > money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they > > > provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend shouldn't > > > expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any time > > > > > > > > > > soon. > > > Kathy Hagen > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > > > impression > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights because > > > she > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > > > everyone > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in a > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires an > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a visual > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of > > > the > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > Cordially, > > > John > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc glob > > > al.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox .net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc global.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 0sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail .com > > > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf b.org From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Dec 11 20:33:28 2008 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:33:28 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA75401468FFD@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> References: <000325574ceaa78bc3045da06e10@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA75401468FFD@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: They have moved to where alot of things can be done for social security payments online and changing of info, etc. just not for SSI for some reason. > Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:21:14 -0500 > From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > Maybe someone is closer to the case than am I, but my understanding was > that the ACB and others are concerned with paper notices an dnot with > web access. One can imagine a day when we can access social security > notices from our personal accounts on the web but so far the agency has > not moved to that sort of aproach. > Jim McCarthy > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:26 PM > To: Dennis Clark; blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > Dennis: > > The ACB lawsuit is against Social Security and they are the ones doing > the "hand holding" as they are concentrating on making everything turned > into text but unformatted text or text made from PDF files is usually a > mess, especially if it was created using a mac in InDesign and > translated into a PDF file on a Windows based computer and then turned > into a text file. You see this stuff all the time, and it looks like > people just do not care but in reality they did not consider the > transition from one format to the other. > > The NFB lawsuit is great, it finally breaches the gap from the public to > the private sector. I tried to do this with the National Voter > Registration form by showing that if the states were willing to deny the > right to vote to people because they made their voter registration forms > incaccessible then we could use the laws of the Voting Rights Act to > force Integration under the Civil rights Act of 1964 which enables the > 14th Amendment Section > 2 to be imposed upon the states if they do not comply, and this would to > everyone in the state, not just the public sector. > > Social Security was required to be accessible to the blind 35 years ago > under the Rehabiliation Act of 1973. There is no excuse. They were > required to do this in 1998 under Section 508 of the Rehabiliation Act > and here is the law. > http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3 > What we need here is a review of accessibility law and make sure > everyone understands that the federal government mandated accessibility > years ago and nobody has complied. > > And they have not complied because IT people refuse to do it. It is that > simple. Managers have been told that it is too expensive or that it is > impossible. That's Bull. It can be done and it can be done when people > make the documents, and the only thing preventing accessibility is the > knowledge of how to do it and the pride of IT officials who do not know > how to do it and refuse to budge and learn. > > The Target lawsuit is so out of whack I cannot beleive it. The problem > with Target is that they probably are using an old database and so they > would have to get a new one. Chances are they have not updated their > software. > That could be rather expensive but they will have to do it anyway, just > for security issues alone. Target has always had a corporate mentality > of being able to do anything they want and so when the federal > government mandates things to them, they tend to consider it a nuisance > and so they are not handling this well at all. You would think that > given they just lost the case they would have fixed their site by now, > but they haven't. And what is amazing is that it is so easy to do this. > Accessibility is easy to those who know how to do it. This is what > accessibility gets down to is using new software and having the right > people who know how to write code properly create the websites with the > idea that accessibility is the prime issue. > > Many people in IT think that if you make a website standards compliant > that that makes it accessible, but you have to put accessibility > features into the site. > Of coure Targets site is not web standards compliant. No, Target needs > to fire its IT People and hire people who will keep them out of > lawsuits. The costs of the lawyers and the settlement could have been > put into updating their database and hiring people to fix their site. > Also if they fix their site they would be able to use it on Cell phones > and Iphones. The transition to Web 2 is almost the same requirements to > start a website to accessibility, so Target is still in the dark ages of > web design. > > This is such a waste. > > The reality of Accessibility is that it shows that IT people have no > clue what they are doing and they are getting caught. They are getting > caught being unprofessional, they are getting caught writing code that > is written badly, they are illiterate when it comes to writing computer > code. > > They are leaving their corporations out to dry. > > James Pepper > On Dec 9, 2008 9:25am, Dennis Clark wrote: > > Hi John, > > > > > > Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and > > > I > am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in > practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you > are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually > launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability > Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did > this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no > problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully > accessible to the blind. > The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there > are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the > free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates > that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible > website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything > is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility > alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. > > > > > > > > > > > > Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible > communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because > unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many > shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are > forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind > recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications > being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or > unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I > represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this > procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution > to my client's problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a > > strong > constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is > the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. > It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I > am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they > result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. > > > > > > > > > > > > I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > > > > Dennis > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> > > > > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of > > activity > regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as > captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering > readable by screen readers. > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, > > > > > > I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in > > an > > > > > > accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all > > hold > > > > > > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > > > On > > > > > > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM > > > > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > > that > > > > > > materials were available in Braille and people could receive > communications > > > > > > from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. > I'm > > > > > > not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was > discontinued. > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > > > > > in > > > > > > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not > mean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials > yet. > > > > > > And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' > > > > > > money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they > > > > > > provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend > shouldn't > > > > > > expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any > time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > soon. > > > > > > Kathy Hagen > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > > > > > > impression > > > > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights > because > > > > > > she > > > > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > > > > > > everyone > > > > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in > a > > > > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires > an > > > > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a > visual > > > > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of > > > > > > the > > > > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c > om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > glob > > > > > > al.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox > .net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > global.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > 0sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail > .com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf > b.org > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 From mikefry79 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 20:57:52 2008 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:57:52 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] The homeless blind. In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0812110924t252522f0i4a81e060176d3134@mail.gmail.com> References: <8c58e54a0812110924t252522f0i4a81e060176d3134@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0812111257x7c75a7o2496910e79507a00@mail.gmail.com> I'd like to retract the last half of my previous post and apologize to anyone that I may have offended. This morning I must've been in a peculiar mood, some of my remarks were insensitive and probably just incorrect. On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 9:24 AM, Michael Fry wrote: > I have no information to directly answer this question, however, I'm > compelled to give you my thoughts on the subject because I think it > will help you. > > It's doubtful that there are appreciable amounts of totally blind > homeless people, though there are likely a few, since sustaining a > homeless life style and being blind is nearly unimaginable because > blindness is such a debilitating disability that utilizing the > resources of society are necessary for survival. If there are > significant numbers of blind homeless people, I'd be surprised and the > U.S. would not be the country I thought it was, my observations > suggest no correlation between disfiguring or catastrophic disability > and homelessness in wealthier countries. Where as in poor countries, > like China, nearly all the homeless and beggars were disfigured, > maimed, or suffered a seriously noticeable disability. The inhumanity > of having a significant population of blind homeless people would be > shockingly surreal. > > On the other hand it would not surprise me in the least if a > significant number of homeless people are visually impaired, falling > on that spectrum of impairment ranging from 20/300 acuity to 20/60 > visual acuity. This population is underserved by society. They are > unable to obtain any cushy government jobs such as for example > firefighter, police officer, paramedic, or severe in any branch of the > armed forces. Moreover, they suffer academically because their > disability is not properly accommodated. Further, it is a symptom of > our sick uneducated society that these are the contemporary > unfortunate souls. Rather, than being poor peasants united by > circumstance, poor government, drought, weak physical countenance as > with other unfortunates in history this lot has nothing in common > except they lost the genetic lottery. They are weaker than the > weakest functioning members of society. Cultural values have changed > a lot in the last fifty years, and now it seems that people with this > type of disability find themselves on the low end of the societal > totem pole. > > I doubt you'll find any usefully statistics on the subject. > Regardless, I sincerely hope that you can help them. > > Mike > > > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 1:15 AM, David R. Stayer > wrote: >> I have been asked to circulate the following: >> Please reply to the e-mail address below as he is not subscribed to all the >> lists to which this is being posted. >> >> David Andrews >> >> >> From: "David R. Stayer" >> Shalom. I am chair of the Social Services Committee on our newly formed >> Commission for the Blind and Visually Handicapped Executive Board in New >> York. Our committee is trying to ascertain whether states track the >> homeless blind and visually impaired. Anyy data you could furnish would >> help us in recommending to the Commission for the Blind. I cannot find any >> data for New York and wonder how other states handle this population. >> Each day is a precious gift. >> David R. Stayer, LCSW >> davidandloristayer at verizon.net >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: 12/8/2008 >> 9:38 AM >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >> > From rjaquiss at earthlink.net Thu Dec 11 21:32:08 2008 From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:32:08 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] The homeless blind. References: Message-ID: Hello: Since the next census is in 2010, perhaps we would have a chance to get Congress to require the Census Bureau to count the blind. It occurs to me that other groups such as the deaf would find this information of use. Regards, Robert Jaquiss ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] The homeless blind. > The Census doesn't even track the blind. It is terrible. I think they do > not want to be caught not caring for the blind so they ignore the figures. > The AFB, the NFB and the AAPD all have different figures on the number of > the blind in this country, homeless or not. If they did track these > numbers > every state would be in violation of the Civil Rights Act and so the best > way to avoid any trouble is to not count the blind, put them in the class > of > being disabled and forget about it. > > James Pepper > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 3:15 AM, David R. Stayer < > davidandloristayer at verizon.net> wrote: > >> I have been asked to circulate the following: >> Please reply to the e-mail address below as he is not subscribed to all >> the >> lists to which this is being posted. >> >> David Andrews >> >> >> From: "David R. Stayer" >> Shalom. I am chair of the Social Services Committee on our newly formed >> Commission for the Blind and Visually Handicapped Executive Board in New >> York. Our committee is trying to ascertain whether states track the >> homeless blind and visually impaired. Anyy data you could furnish would >> help us in recommending to the Commission for the Blind. I cannot find >> any >> data for New York and wonder how other states handle this population. >> Each day is a precious gift. >> David R. Stayer, LCSW >> davidandloristayer at verizon.net >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: >> 12/8/2008 >> 9:38 AM >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 22:09:04 2008 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:09:04 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <000325574ceaa78bc3045da06e10@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA75401468FFD@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: The problem is in the forms and their inability to understand web accessibility when it comes to dynamic web pages and screen readers. They can place all sorts of textual inforamtion on the net but once you get into interactive forms design, then things go haywire because different screen readers and different versions of screen readers react differently from each other. It is a nightmare.. On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 2:33 PM, tim and vickie shaw < timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote: > > They have moved to where alot of things can be done for social security > payments online and changing of info, etc. just not for SSI for some reason. > > > Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:21:14 -0500 > > From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > Maybe someone is closer to the case than am I, but my understanding was > > that the ACB and others are concerned with paper notices an dnot with > > web access. One can imagine a day when we can access social security > > notices from our personal accounts on the web but so far the agency has > > not moved to that sort of aproach. > > Jim McCarthy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > > On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:26 PM > > To: Dennis Clark; blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > Dennis: > > > > The ACB lawsuit is against Social Security and they are the ones doing > > the "hand holding" as they are concentrating on making everything turned > > into text but unformatted text or text made from PDF files is usually a > > mess, especially if it was created using a mac in InDesign and > > translated into a PDF file on a Windows based computer and then turned > > into a text file. You see this stuff all the time, and it looks like > > people just do not care but in reality they did not consider the > > transition from one format to the other. > > > > The NFB lawsuit is great, it finally breaches the gap from the public to > > the private sector. I tried to do this with the National Voter > > Registration form by showing that if the states were willing to deny the > > right to vote to people because they made their voter registration forms > > incaccessible then we could use the laws of the Voting Rights Act to > > force Integration under the Civil rights Act of 1964 which enables the > > 14th Amendment Section > > 2 to be imposed upon the states if they do not comply, and this would to > > everyone in the state, not just the public sector. > > > > Social Security was required to be accessible to the blind 35 years ago > > under the Rehabiliation Act of 1973. There is no excuse. They were > > required to do this in 1998 under Section 508 of the Rehabiliation Act > > and here is the law. > > http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3 > > What we need here is a review of accessibility law and make sure > > everyone understands that the federal government mandated accessibility > > years ago and nobody has complied. > > > > And they have not complied because IT people refuse to do it. It is that > > simple. Managers have been told that it is too expensive or that it is > > impossible. That's Bull. It can be done and it can be done when people > > make the documents, and the only thing preventing accessibility is the > > knowledge of how to do it and the pride of IT officials who do not know > > how to do it and refuse to budge and learn. > > > > The Target lawsuit is so out of whack I cannot beleive it. The problem > > with Target is that they probably are using an old database and so they > > would have to get a new one. Chances are they have not updated their > > software. > > That could be rather expensive but they will have to do it anyway, just > > for security issues alone. Target has always had a corporate mentality > > of being able to do anything they want and so when the federal > > government mandates things to them, they tend to consider it a nuisance > > and so they are not handling this well at all. You would think that > > given they just lost the case they would have fixed their site by now, > > but they haven't. And what is amazing is that it is so easy to do this. > > Accessibility is easy to those who know how to do it. This is what > > accessibility gets down to is using new software and having the right > > people who know how to write code properly create the websites with the > > idea that accessibility is the prime issue. > > > > Many people in IT think that if you make a website standards compliant > > that that makes it accessible, but you have to put accessibility > > features into the site. > > Of coure Targets site is not web standards compliant. No, Target needs > > to fire its IT People and hire people who will keep them out of > > lawsuits. The costs of the lawyers and the settlement could have been > > put into updating their database and hiring people to fix their site. > > Also if they fix their site they would be able to use it on Cell phones > > and Iphones. The transition to Web 2 is almost the same requirements to > > start a website to accessibility, so Target is still in the dark ages of > > web design. > > > > This is such a waste. > > > > The reality of Accessibility is that it shows that IT people have no > > clue what they are doing and they are getting caught. They are getting > > caught being unprofessional, they are getting caught writing code that > > is written badly, they are illiterate when it comes to writing computer > > code. > > > > They are leaving their corporations out to dry. > > > > James Pepper > > On Dec 9, 2008 9:25am, Dennis Clark wrote: > > > Hi John, > > > > > > > > > Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and > > > > > I > > am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in > > practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold > > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you > > are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually > > launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability > > Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did > > this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no > > problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully > > accessible to the blind. > > The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there > > are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the > > free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates > > that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible > > website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything > > is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility > > alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible > > communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because > > unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many > > shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are > > forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind > > recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications > > being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or > > unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I > > represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this > > procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution > > to my client's problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a > > > strong > > constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is > > the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. > > It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I > > am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they > > result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dennis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> > > > > > > > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of > > > activity > > regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as > > captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering > > readable by screen readers. > > > > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > > > > > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, > > > > > > > > > I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in > > > an > > > > > > > > > accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all > > > hold > > > > > > > > > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > > > > > On > > > > > > > > > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM > > > > > > > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say > > > that > > > > > > > > > materials were available in Braille and people could receive > > communications > > > > > > > > > from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. > > I'm > > > > > > > > > not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was > > discontinued. > > > > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> > > > > > > > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not > > mean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials > > yet. > > > > > > > > > And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' > > > > > > > > > money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they > > > > > > > > > provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend > > shouldn't > > > > > > > > > expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any > > time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > soon. > > > > > > > > > Kathy Hagen > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> > > > > > > > > > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > > > > i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the > > > > > > > > > impression > > > > > > > > > that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights > > because > > > > > > > > > she > > > > > > > > > received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that > > > > > > > > > everyone > > > > > > > > > else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in > > a > > > > > > > > > standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires > > an > > > > > > > > > entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a > > visual > > > > > > > > > disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > CFR that contains such a requirement? > > > > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gainesville, FL 32609 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (352) 505-6642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c > > om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > > glob > > > > > > > > > al.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox > > .net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > > global.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > > 0sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf > > b.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. > > http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From khagen12 at q.com Fri Dec 12 00:52:32 2008 From: khagen12 at q.com (Kathleen Hagen) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:52:32 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question References: <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA75401468FFD@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: I think that the people who filed the suit are interested in getting the notices in any way that is accessible. At this point the only concessions they make for getting material to a blind person is that it can be sent by registered mail, or, if you've gotten the notice, you can call and have someone read it to you. This is outrageous! Even if, as most of us do, we get our mail read, or scan it ourselves etc., as soon as it comes, it still goes beyond understanding that in this day and age SSA doesn't have the technology to send notices in alternative format. SSA is moving toward electronic filing of records in a case. Given how many problems I've had with electronic case management in federal court cases, I'm not looking forward to it. The only thing that SSA seems to provide is public information, including what we refer to as the Redbook, updated annually. And, just to put the frosting on the cake, so to speak, EEOC has just been successful in getting a class action certified against SSA involving (I can't remember what they called it) but persons with visible disabilities-deaf, blind, people with partial or complete paralysis, etc. And why was it necessary to certify a class of persons with disabilities? Well, you see, while SSA does hire people with disabilities, they don't promote them into mid or upper management. The class representative has worked for SSA for almost 30 years. He is deaf and has been overlooked for promotion dozens of times. Kathy Hagen Kathy Hagen ----- Original Message ----- From: "McCarthy, Jim" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > Maybe someone is closer to the case than am I, but my understanding was > that the ACB and others are concerned with paper notices an dnot with > web access. One can imagine a day when we can access social security > notices from our personal accounts on the web but so far the agency has > not moved to that sort of aproach. > Jim McCarthy > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of b75205 at gmail.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:26 PM > To: Dennis Clark; blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > > Dennis: > > The ACB lawsuit is against Social Security and they are the ones doing > the "hand holding" as they are concentrating on making everything turned > into text but unformatted text or text made from PDF files is usually a > mess, especially if it was created using a mac in InDesign and > translated into a PDF file on a Windows based computer and then turned > into a text file. You see this stuff all the time, and it looks like > people just do not care but in reality they did not consider the > transition from one format to the other. > > The NFB lawsuit is great, it finally breaches the gap from the public to > the private sector. I tried to do this with the National Voter > Registration form by showing that if the states were willing to deny the > right to vote to people because they made their voter registration forms > incaccessible then we could use the laws of the Voting Rights Act to > force Integration under the Civil rights Act of 1964 which enables the > 14th Amendment Section > 2 to be imposed upon the states if they do not comply, and this would to > everyone in the state, not just the public sector. > > Social Security was required to be accessible to the blind 35 years ago > under the Rehabiliation Act of 1973. There is no excuse. They were > required to do this in 1998 under Section 508 of the Rehabiliation Act > and here is the law. > http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3 > What we need here is a review of accessibility law and make sure > everyone understands that the federal government mandated accessibility > years ago and nobody has complied. > > And they have not complied because IT people refuse to do it. It is that > simple. Managers have been told that it is too expensive or that it is > impossible. That's Bull. It can be done and it can be done when people > make the documents, and the only thing preventing accessibility is the > knowledge of how to do it and the pride of IT officials who do not know > how to do it and refuse to budge and learn. > > The Target lawsuit is so out of whack I cannot beleive it. The problem > with Target is that they probably are using an old database and so they > would have to get a new one. Chances are they have not updated their > software. > That could be rather expensive but they will have to do it anyway, just > for security issues alone. Target has always had a corporate mentality > of being able to do anything they want and so when the federal > government mandates things to them, they tend to consider it a nuisance > and so they are not handling this well at all. You would think that > given they just lost the case they would have fixed their site by now, > but they haven't. And what is amazing is that it is so easy to do this. > Accessibility is easy to those who know how to do it. This is what > accessibility gets down to is using new software and having the right > people who know how to write code properly create the websites with the > idea that accessibility is the prime issue. > > Many people in IT think that if you make a website standards compliant > that that makes it accessible, but you have to put accessibility > features into the site. > Of coure Targets site is not web standards compliant. No, Target needs > to fire its IT People and hire people who will keep them out of > lawsuits. The costs of the lawyers and the settlement could have been > put into updating their database and hiring people to fix their site. > Also if they fix their site they would be able to use it on Cell phones > and Iphones. The transition to Web 2 is almost the same requirements to > start a website to accessibility, so Target is still in the dark ages of > web design. > > This is such a waste. > > The reality of Accessibility is that it shows that IT people have no > clue what they are doing and they are getting caught. They are getting > caught being unprofessional, they are getting caught writing code that > is written badly, they are illiterate when it comes to writing computer > code. > > They are leaving their corporations out to dry. > > James Pepper > On Dec 9, 2008 9:25am, Dennis Clark wrote: >> Hi John, >> >> >> Good to see you on the list. I lost track of you after law school, and > >> I > am happy to see that the bar exam is behind you and that you are now in > practice. In your message you referred to another "ACB, let's all hold > blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit." I assume you > are referring to the law suit against Target and that was actually > launched with the support of the NFB and litigated by the Disability > Rights Advocates in California. I am personally pleased that the NFB did > this, but I will admit I am aggressive on this point, and I have no > problem forcing even private entities such as Target to be fully > accessible to the blind. > The Target action can of course be argued as "hand holding," since there > are alternatives for reading any website, such as using a reader, or the > free market solution of simply shopping at a store which demonstrates > that it wants the business of blind people by offering an accessible > website, but I don't subscribe to that argument. After all, everything > is accessible if we use sighted assistance, but the accessibility > alternative needs to be practical, not just plausible. >> >> >> >> >> >> Forcing the Social Security Administration to provide accessible > communications is an even easier philosophical question for me, because > unlike Target, the government is not a private entity. There are many > shopping alternatives available to us other than Target, but we are > forced to interact with the Social Security Administration. >> >> >> >> >> >> Also, the Social Security Administration use to telephone blind > recipients to tell them about any problems or written communications > being mailed to them, so we are not asking them to do something new or > unworkable. I know for a fact that this was true in 2004, because I > represented someone before the Social Security Administration, and this > procedure was already in place and was offered as part of the solution > to my client's problem. >> >> >> >> >> >> As a matter of law, and in addition to the 504 argument, I think a >> strong > constitutional argument can be made as a matter of due process if it is > the case that there is a property interest in Social Security payments. > It is likely that there is no property interest in SSI payments, but I > am confident there is with SSDI and retirement payments since they > result from money paid into Social Security by the recipient. >> >> >> >> >> >> I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this matter. >> >> >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> >> >> >> >> Dennis >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> >> >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:22 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I actually agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of >> activity > regarding inaccessible web sites and the use of sucdh formats such as > captia and flash formats where image text is presented not bering > readable by screen readers. >> >> >> Chuck >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> >> >> >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:09 AM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Chuck, >> >> >> I have no dispute that we should be able to receive communications in >> an >> >> >> accessible format, but I am just not ready for another ACB, let's all >> hold >> >> >> blind folks hands, as they cannot help themselves lawsuit. >> >> >> Take care, >> >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> >> >> >> >> Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> >> >> >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > >> On >> >> >> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net >> >> >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:41 AM >> >> >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Its interesting because I recall many years ago that SSA used to say >> that >> >> >> materials were available in Braille and people could receive > communications >> >> >> from them in Braille. This was back in the 60's when I was growing up. > I'm >> >> >> not sure what the extent of this was or if or when it was > discontinued. >> >> >> Chuck >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen Hagen" khagen12 at q.com> >> >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:24 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> John, There is a certified class for blind social security recipients >> >> >> in >> >> >> which they are suing the SSA for accessible documents. That does not > mean >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> that SSA is providing alternative formats for consumer's materials > yet. >> >> >> And they probably won't for some time while they spend the taxpayers' >> >> >> money figuring out how to avoid it. They do hire blind people and they >> >> >> provide general materials in braille at least. But your friend > shouldn't >> >> >> expect to see her consumer-related material in alternative format any > time >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> soon. >> >> >> Kathy Hagen >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John " joramsey at cox.net> >> >> >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:09 AM >> >> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hello All, >> >> >> i am on another NFB list and an individual seems to be under the >> >> >> impression >> >> >> that the Social Security Administration is violating her rights > because >> >> >> she >> >> >> received the cost of living increase letter in the same format that >> >> >> everyone >> >> >> else receives the notice. Apparently this is just a standard letter in > a >> >> >> standard envelope. I am personally not aware of any law that requires > an >> >> >> entity to send "accessible" letters to everyone that might have a > visual >> >> >> disability. If this is the law, can someone point me to the section of >> >> >> the >> >> >> CFR that contains such a requirement? >> >> >> Cordially, >> >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq. >> >> >> >> >> >> Gainesville, FL 32609 >> >> >> >> >> >> Phone: (352) 505-6642 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.c > om >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > glob >> >> >> al.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox > .net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc > global.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > 0sbcglobal.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail > .com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf > b.org > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com > From mhanson at winternet.com Fri Dec 12 14:24:26 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:24:26 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike Message-ID: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my hike. Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more information on my plans. Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! Sincerely, Mike Hanson From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 12 20:34:21 2008 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:34:21 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: <4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook> hi, this sounds cool but... did you get the gps unit for free?? are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? is this funded by the nfb as well?? Bryan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael O. Hanson" To: Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: > > My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of > this list for years and learned a great deal from it. > > I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in > March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual > impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve our > independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. Adaptive > technology will be a major component of my hike. > > Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of > Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more information > on my plans. > > Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle on > my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the dependence > of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons with visual > impairments. Make me take a hike! > > Sincerely, > > > Mike Hanson > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 12 21:30:19 2008 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:30:19 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a> <4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook> Message-ID: <00d601c95ca0$d67feb00$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> Which GPS is it? I've thought about trying it or something like it with my Trekker, but don't have the financial resources to cover myself. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > hi, > > this sounds cool but... > did you get the gps unit for free?? > are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? > is this funded by the nfb as well?? > Bryan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >> >> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of >> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >> >> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve our >> independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. Adaptive >> technology will be a major component of my hike. >> >> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of >> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more information >> on my plans. >> >> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle on >> my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the dependence >> of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons with visual >> impairments. Make me take a hike! >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net From clucas at ccdconline.org Fri Dec 12 22:39:24 2008 From: clucas at ccdconline.org (Carrie Ann Lucas) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:39:24 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Please forward -- Free training in NOLA Jan 8-9 for attorneys who represent victims of domestic violence Message-ID: <7F0F16B748F94BF1AE966C0C87183DA5@colorado0f48f8> This is an ABA training offered to attorneys in your organization or community who serve victims of domestic violence whom you think would benefit from this Institute. Keep in mind that registration is NOT limited to grantees from the Office on Violence Against Women and registration is free so the only costs are travel to New Orleans and hotel. Please forward the announcement below to anyone whom you think should attend. Registration closes next Friday, December 19, 2008. This week we opened registration for our January institute on the civil representation of victims who are Deaf, hard of hearing, and/or with disabilities. As you know, the Institute is scheduled January 8-9, 2008 in New Orleans, LA. Please forward this message and flyer to any attorneys who might be interested in attending. Registration information is at the institute website: http://www.abanet.org/domviol/institute/disabilities.html National Institute on Civil Representation of Victims of Domestic Violence, Dating Violence and Sexual Assault Who are Deaf, Hard of Hearing and/or With Disabilities January 8-9, New Orleans, LA The American Bar Association Commission on Domestic Violence, in collaboration with the United States Department of Justice, Office on Violence Against Women (OVW), is pleased to present a two-day training, National Institute on Civil Representation of Victims of Domestic Violence, Dating Violence and Sexual Assault Who are Deaf, Hard of Hearing and/or With Disabilities, on January 8-9, 2008 in New Orleans, Louisiana. This Institute is designed for attorneys who currently represent victims of domestic violence in contested custody and civil protection order cases. The Institute is interactive and all attendees are expected to participate. Priority registration will be given to attorneys currently funded by the Legal Assistance for Victims (LAV) grant program of the United States Department of Justice, Office on Violence Against Women. No more than three attorneys from the same LAV-funded program may attend the Institute without prior permission approval from the program's grant manager. This Institute is offered at no cost to OVW-funded attorneys, and grantees may use OVW funds to cover travel costs to attend. Additional participant slots will be made available to attorneys currently funded by other OVW-funded grant programs that represent victims of domestic violence, sexual assault, and stalking. Non-LAV grantees must obtain prior approval from their grant managers. Remaining spots will be made available to non-OVW funded attorneys currently serving victims and survivors. Registration will close at fifty participants. Online registration is required to attend the Institute. You will receive information regarding how to book your hotel reservations once your registration is confirmed. To register, please visit our website at: http://www.abanet.org/domviol/institute/disabilities.html. Please note that registration will open on December 1, 2008 and close December 14, 2008. If you have any general questions about this Institute or registration, please visit the Commission website. If you need assistance, please contact Guilherme Roschke at roschkeg at staff.abnet.org or (202) 662-1021. Specific questions about the parameters and terms of your OVW grant should be addressed to your OVW program manager. This project is supported by Grant No. 2004-WT-AX-K078 awarded by the United States Department of Justice, Office on Violence Against Women. The opinions, findings, and recommendations expressed in this document are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of the United States Department of Justice, Office on Violence Against Women. Guilherme Roschke Staff Attorney American Bar Association Commission On Domestic Violence 740 15th St NW Washington, DC 20005 202-662-1021 Phone 202-662-1594 Fax roschkeg at staff.abanet.org http://www.abanet.org/domviol Carrie Ann Lucas Director Center for Rights of Parents with Disabilities Colorado Cross-Disability Coalition 655 Broadway, Suite 775 Denver, CO 80203 303.839.1775 (main and messages) 303.839.0015 (direct and TTY) 303.839.1782 (facsimile) 800.817.1435 (main and messages) 877.267.1621 (direct and TTY) www.ccdconline.org From mhanson at winternet.com Sat Dec 13 10:46:26 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:46:26 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a> <4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook> Message-ID: <428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a> Dear Mr. Schulz: Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone is a free open source software program available to anybody with the appropriate cell phone. I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through Minnesota State Services for the Blind. I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. Sincerely, Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > hi, > > this sounds cool but... > did you get the gps unit for free?? > are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? > is this funded by the nfb as well?? > Bryan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >> >> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of >> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >> >> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve our >> independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. Adaptive >> technology will be a major component of my hike. >> >> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of >> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more information >> on my plans. >> >> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle on >> my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the dependence >> of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons with visual >> impairments. Make me take a hike! >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From mhanson at winternet.com Sat Dec 13 10:49:03 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:49:03 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook> <00d601c95ca0$d67feb00$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> Message-ID: <0F3A3BAB68524A969CCF9E8F2BB5C9B0@hp048378e4c43a> I will use two programs. I will use Loadstone GPs as my primary program. This is a free, open source program usable by anybody with the appropriate cell phone. Please visit www.loadstone-GPS program for more information about this program. The second program I will use is Wayfinder Access. Please visit www.wayfinder.com/access for more information about this program. Please email me or visit www.blindhiker.com if you have any questions. Sincerely, Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > Which GPS is it? I've thought about trying it or something like it with > my Trekker, but don't have the financial resources to cover myself. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Schulz" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:34 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> hi, >> >> this sounds cool but... >> did you get the gps unit for free?? >> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >> Bryan >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>> >>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of >>> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>> >>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >>> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >>> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve our >>> independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. Adaptive >>> technology will be a major component of my hike. >>> >>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of >>> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>> information on my plans. >>> >>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle on >>> my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the dependence >>> of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons with >>> visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Sat Dec 13 16:27:28 2008 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:27:28 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook> <428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: <16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook> hi, sorry for the misjudgement. it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and safe hiking. if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. Bryan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael O. Hanson" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > Dear Mr. Schulz: > > Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS program > myself. I use Wayfinder Access. > > I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone is > a free open source software program available to anybody with the > appropriate cell phone. > > I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through > Minnesota State Services for the Blind. > > I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a book > deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with other > sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or visit > www.blindhiker.com for more information. > > Sincerely, > > > Mike Hanson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Schulz" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> hi, >> >> this sounds cool but... >> did you get the gps unit for free?? >> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >> Bryan >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>> >>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of >>> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>> >>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >>> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >>> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve our >>> independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. Adaptive >>> technology will be a major component of my hike. >>> >>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of >>> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>> information on my plans. >>> >>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle on >>> my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the dependence >>> of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons with >>> visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From stiehm.law at juno.com Sat Dec 13 22:37:01 2008 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 17:37:01 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike Message-ID: <20081213.173701.424.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Dear Mr. Hanson, Is the Loadstone GPS software on you Nokia N82? if so, so you have any of the other technology they list on their web site, i.e.: A Bluetooth GPS receiver A USB Bluetooth dongle (optional) A Bluetooth headset (optional) A Multimedia card (MMC) reader (optional) A high-capacity Multimedia Card (MMC) (optional) . What has been your experience with this program vis-a-vis the wayfinder? Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:46:26 -0600 "Michael O. Hanson" writes: > Dear Mr. Schulz: > > Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS > program > myself. I use Wayfinder Access. > > I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. > Loadstone is a > free open source software program available to anybody with the > appropriate > cell phone. > > I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader > through > Minnesota State Services for the Blind. > > I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a > book > deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with > other > sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or > visit > www.blindhiker.com for more information. > > Sincerely, > > > Mike Hanson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Schulz" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > > > hi, > > > > this sounds cool but... > > did you get the gps unit for free?? > > are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? > > is this funded by the nfb as well?? > > Bryan > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM > > Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > > > > >> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: > >> > >> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a > member of > >> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. > >> > >> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS > starting in > >> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with > visual > >> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to > achieve our > >> independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. > Adaptive > >> technology will be a major component of my hike. > >> > >> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a > documentary of > >> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more > information > >> on my plans. > >> > >> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only > obstacle on > >> my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the > dependence > >> of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons > with visual > >> impairments. Make me take a hike! > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> > >> Mike Hanson > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >> blindlaw: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcg lobal.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winte rnet.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD! Shop now at http://offers.juno.com/TGL1141/?u=http://www.ftd.com/17007 From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 01:24:40 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:24:40 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a> <16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook> Message-ID: <171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a> I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you included in your message! I think the statements such a project can make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > hi, > > sorry for the misjudgement. > it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and safe > hiking. > if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more intelligent > than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. > Bryan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> Dear Mr. Schulz: >> >> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS program >> myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >> >> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone is >> a free open source software program available to anybody with the >> appropriate cell phone. >> >> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >> >> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a book >> deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with other >> sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or visit >> www.blindhiker.com for more information. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> hi, >>> >>> this sounds cool but... >>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>> Bryan >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>> >>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member of >>>> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>> >>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >>>> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >>>> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve >>>> our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. >>>> Adaptive technology will be a major component of my hike. >>>> >>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of >>>> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>> information on my plans. >>>> >>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle >>>> on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the >>>> dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for >>>> persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Hanson >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 01:30:09 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <20081213.173701.424.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Dear Mr. Stiehm: I have a Nokia N82 with a memory card. I have a USB Bluetooth dongle to connect my phone to my computer. This is the best way to transfer files in my experience. It is much easier to se than the cable connection Nokia provides. I find Loadstone much better than Wayfinder Access at allowing me to pinpoint exact locations of buildings, corners, etc. On the other hand, I find Wayfinder Access better at planning routes in unfamiliar locations. Wayfinder Access requires a cell phone signal. Loadstone does not. Therefore, Loadstone is almost essential in my experience. I hope this answers your questions. Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > Dear Mr. Hanson, > > Is the Loadstone GPS software on you Nokia N82? if so, so you have any > of the other technology they list on their web site, i.e.: > A Bluetooth GPS receiver > A USB Bluetooth dongle (optional) > A Bluetooth headset (optional) > A Multimedia card (MMC) reader (optional) > A high-capacity Multimedia Card (MMC) (optional) . > > What has been your experience with this program vis-a-vis the wayfinder? > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:46:26 -0600 "Michael O. Hanson" > writes: >> Dear Mr. Schulz: >> >> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >> program >> myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >> >> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >> Loadstone is a >> free open source software program available to anybody with the >> appropriate >> cell phone. >> >> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader >> through >> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >> >> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >> book >> deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >> other >> sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or >> visit >> www.blindhiker.com for more information. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >> > hi, >> > >> > this sounds cool but... >> > did you get the gps unit for free?? >> > are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >> > is this funded by the nfb as well?? >> > Bryan >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> > To: >> > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >> > Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> > >> > >> >> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >> >> >> >> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >> member of >> >> this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >> >> >> >> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS >> starting in >> >> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >> visual >> >> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >> achieve our >> >> independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. >> Adaptive >> >> technology will be a major component of my hike. >> >> >> >> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a >> documentary of >> >> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >> information >> >> on my plans. >> >> >> >> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >> obstacle on >> >> my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the >> dependence >> >> of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for persons >> with visual >> >> impairments. Make me take a hike! >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcg > lobal.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> > blindlaw: >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winte > rnet.com >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com >> >> > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD! > Shop now at http://offers.juno.com/TGL1141/?u=http://www.ftd.com/17007 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 15 04:05:44 2008 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:05:44 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook> <171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: <0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook> hi, my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? Bryan Schulz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael O. Hanson" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >included in your message! I think the statements such a project can make >deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. > > > Mike Hanson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Schulz" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> hi, >> >> sorry for the misjudgement. >> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and safe >> hiking. >> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more intelligent >> than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >> Bryan >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>> >>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS program >>> myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>> >>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone >>> is a free open source software program available to anybody with the >>> appropriate cell phone. >>> >>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>> >>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or >>> visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> hi, >>>> >>>> this sounds cool but... >>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>> Bryan >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>> >>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member >>>>> of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>> >>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >>>>> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >>>>> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve >>>>> our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. >>>>> Adaptive technology will be a major component of my hike. >>>>> >>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary of >>>>> Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>> information on my plans. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle >>>>> on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the >>>>> dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for >>>>> persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 13:31:22 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:31:22 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a> <0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook> Message-ID: <54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. Finishing in early November is an option. Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > hi, > > my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. > > how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? > Bryan Schulz > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can make >>deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> hi, >>> >>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and safe >>> hiking. >>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more intelligent >>> than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>> Bryan >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>> >>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS program >>>> myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>> >>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone >>>> is a free open source software program available to anybody with the >>>> appropriate cell phone. >>>> >>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>> >>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me or >>>> visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Hanson >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> hi, >>>>> >>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>> Bryan >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>> >>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member >>>>>> of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting in >>>>>> March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with visual >>>>>> impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to achieve >>>>>> our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind community. >>>>>> Adaptive technology will be a major component of my hike. >>>>>> >>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only obstacle >>>>>> on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths about the >>>>>> dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open doors for >>>>>> persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From stiehm.law at juno.com Mon Dec 15 13:54:09 2008 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:54:09 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike Message-ID: <20081215.085410.5376.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Dear Mr. Hanson, Yes this answer is most helpful. Thank you. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600 "Michael O. Hanson" writes: > Dear Mr. Stiehm: > > I have a Nokia N82 with a memory card. I have a USB Bluetooth > dongle to > connect my phone to my computer. This is the best way to transfer > files in > my experience. It is much easier to se than the cable connection > Nokia > provides. > > I find Loadstone much better than Wayfinder Access at allowing me to > > pinpoint exact locations of buildings, corners, etc. On the other > hand, I > find Wayfinder Access better at planning routes in unfamiliar > locations. > Wayfinder Access requires a cell phone signal. Loadstone does not. > > Therefore, Loadstone is almost essential in my experience. I hope > this > answers your questions. > > > Mike Hanson ____________________________________________________________ Take a break - you deserve it. Click here to find a great vacation. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2gGUg4tvN9EeokMjWMrecfgwcn18sn7iNhhiDXWp4Xo3YIv/ From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 15 15:07:09 2008 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (The Weisberg Group) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:07:09 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook> <54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: <26D518A801D34C928A033B62C376DE8E@JamesWeisberg> Hey Mike, who did you work with at services for the blind? About fifteen years ago I worked with Jon Bensen. Great Support. James ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael O. Hanson" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. Finishing >in early November is an option. > > > Mike Hanson > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Schulz" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> hi, >> >> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >> >> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >> Bryan Schulz >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can make >>>deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> hi, >>>> >>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and safe >>>> hiking. >>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>> Bryan >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>> >>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>> >>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone >>>>> is a free open source software program available to anybody with the >>>>> appropriate cell phone. >>>>> >>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>> >>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me >>>>> or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>> Bryan >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member >>>>>>> of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >>>>>>> achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my hike. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%40sbcglobal.net From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 15 16:00:39 2008 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:00:39 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook> <54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: <000601c95ece$46f64b70$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> How much sighted help will you use? There will be aspects, such as finding the next shelter or the outhouse when at the shelter, which will prove difficult, even with GPS. How will you handle mail drops and re-supply caches? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael O. Hanson" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. Finishing >in early November is an option. > > > Mike Hanson > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Schulz" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> hi, >> >> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >> >> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >> Bryan Schulz >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can make >>>deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> hi, >>>> >>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and safe >>>> hiking. >>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>> Bryan >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>> >>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>> >>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. Loadstone >>>>> is a free open source software program available to anybody with the >>>>> appropriate cell phone. >>>>> >>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>> >>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me >>>>> or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>> Bryan >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a member >>>>>>> of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >>>>>>> achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my hike. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 16:44:44 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:44:44 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <20081215.085410.5376.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: I am glad you found my answers helpful. I forgot to include the Bluetooth receivers I use. In my opinion, a Royaltec RBT-2210 or Holux M-1000 are the best receivers available at this time. Although the Nokia N82 has an internal receiver, it is difficult to use because of lack of a signal. Using an internal receiver on a cell phone also seriously depletes battery power. Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > Dear Mr. Hanson, > > Yes this answer is most helpful. Thank you. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600 "Michael O. Hanson" > writes: >> Dear Mr. Stiehm: >> >> I have a Nokia N82 with a memory card. I have a USB Bluetooth >> dongle to >> connect my phone to my computer. This is the best way to transfer >> files in >> my experience. It is much easier to se than the cable connection >> Nokia >> provides. >> >> I find Loadstone much better than Wayfinder Access at allowing me to >> >> pinpoint exact locations of buildings, corners, etc. On the other >> hand, I >> find Wayfinder Access better at planning routes in unfamiliar >> locations. >> Wayfinder Access requires a cell phone signal. Loadstone does not. >> >> Therefore, Loadstone is almost essential in my experience. I hope >> this >> answers your questions. >> >> >> Mike Hanson > ____________________________________________________________ > Take a break - you deserve it. Click here to find a great vacation. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2gGUg4tvN9EeokMjWMrecfgwcn18sn7iNhhiDXWp4Xo3YIv/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 15 17:46:49 2008 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:46:49 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook><54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> <000601c95ece$46f64b70$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> Message-ID: <8645C05E131C4B6BA842261B99227339@notebook> hi, will you have a solar panel to recharge your gear? Bryan Schulz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > How much sighted help will you use? There will be aspects, such as > finding the next shelter or the outhouse when at the shelter, which will > prove difficult, even with GPS. How will you handle mail drops and > re-supply caches? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >>I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >>March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. >>Finishing in early November is an option. >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> hi, >>> >>> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >>> >>> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >>> Bryan Schulz >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can >>>>make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Hanson >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> hi, >>>>> >>>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and >>>>> safe hiking. >>>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>>> Bryan >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>>> >>>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >>>>>> Loadstone is a free open source software program available to anybody >>>>>> with the appropriate cell phone. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me >>>>>> or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >>>>>>>> member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >>>>>>>> achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my >>>>>>>> hike. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 18:45:43 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:45:43 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook><54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> <26D518A801D34C928A033B62C376DE8E@JamesWeisberg> Message-ID: <8EDFBE9438E34B8A8AE64855C5C9E4A4@hp048378e4c43a> I am working with Michael Newman. I believe things have changed quite a bit in the last fifteen years. ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Weisberg Group" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > Hey Mike, who did you work with at services for the blind? About fifteen > years ago I worked with Jon Bensen. Great Support. > > James > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >>I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >>March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. >>Finishing in early November is an option. >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> hi, >>> >>> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >>> >>> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >>> Bryan Schulz >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can >>>>make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Hanson >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> hi, >>>>> >>>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and >>>>> safe hiking. >>>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>>> Bryan >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>>> >>>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >>>>>> Loadstone is a free open source software program available to anybody >>>>>> with the appropriate cell phone. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me >>>>>> or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >>>>>>>> member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >>>>>>>> achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my >>>>>>>> hike. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 18:52:17 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:52:17 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook><54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> <000601c95ece$46f64b70$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> Message-ID: <638580B4385D4A4A9A9A91FFA009EE0A@hp048378e4c43a> I will use as little sighted help as possible. That being said, I am well aware that the next person to through-hike the At without assistance will be the first. I will have someone hold mail for me and deal with it as necessary. I have a team member in place to do that. That is a common enough practice. Resupply should not be overly difficult. I plan to pick most of what I need up in towns along the trail. I can have necessary items shipped to post offices and held for me. Both practices are very common. As for finding outhouses near shelters, etc., I am timing my trip to coincide with the through-hiking season. That should allow for people to be available if their assistance is needed. There are actual GPS coordinates for shelters. They are good to within about ten yards. Various publications have very good descriptions of where outhouses, water sources, etc. are located, including distances and directions from landmarks for which I have reliable coordinates. Sincerely, Mike Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > How much sighted help will you use? There will be aspects, such as > finding the next shelter or the outhouse when at the shelter, which will > prove difficult, even with GPS. How will you handle mail drops and > re-supply caches? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >>I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >>March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. >>Finishing in early November is an option. >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> hi, >>> >>> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >>> >>> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >>> Bryan Schulz >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can >>>>make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Hanson >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> hi, >>>>> >>>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and >>>>> safe hiking. >>>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>>> Bryan >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>>> >>>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >>>>>> Loadstone is a free open source software program available to anybody >>>>>> with the appropriate cell phone. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me >>>>>> or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >>>>>>>> member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >>>>>>>> achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my >>>>>>>> hike. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 18:54:02 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:54:02 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook><54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a><000601c95ece$46f64b70$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> <8645C05E131C4B6BA842261B99227339@notebook> Message-ID: <4137173303AC4F47AA5FA2C4010B3A2C@hp048378e4c43a> I will use two different options to recharge my gear. first, I expect to need to resupply often enough to use available electricity to recharge my equipment. I will carry enough batteries to make that possible. Second, I will carry a charger that uses standard batteries. I will probably not use a solar charger because of tree cover and other factors. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:46 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > hi, > > will you have a solar panel to recharge your gear? > Bryan Schulz > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark BurningHawk" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:00 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> How much sighted help will you use? There will be aspects, such as >> finding the next shelter or the outhouse when at the shelter, which will >> prove difficult, even with GPS. How will you handle mail drops and >> re-supply caches? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>>I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >>>March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. >>>Finishing in early November is an option. >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> hi, >>>> >>>> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >>>> >>>> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >>>> Bryan Schulz >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can >>>>>make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and >>>>>> safe hiking. >>>>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>>>> Bryan >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >>>>>>> Loadstone is a free open source software program available to >>>>>>> anybody with the appropriate cell phone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader >>>>>>> through Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along >>>>>>> with other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please >>>>>>> email me or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >>>>>>>>> member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology >>>>>>>>> to achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my >>>>>>>>> hike. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a >>>>>>>>> documentary of Mike's Hike. Please visit >>>>>>>>> http://www.blindhiker.com for more information on my plans. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From lmilholland at hotmail.com Mon Dec 15 19:32:34 2008 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:32:34 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook><54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a> <000601c95ece$46f64b70$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> Message-ID: For better or worse, I've never been camping yet where there was an outhouse you couldn't find by smell. I also suggest packing food bars: http://www.raytechcatalog.com/product_info/mayday-food-bar-3600-calories-127.html I plan to get some for long court days. Locke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > How much sighted help will you use? There will be aspects, such as > finding the next shelter or the outhouse when at the shelter, which will > prove difficult, even with GPS. How will you handle mail drops and > re-supply caches? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael O. Hanson" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >>I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >>March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. >>Finishing in early November is an option. >> >> >> Mike Hanson >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bryan Schulz" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>> hi, >>> >>> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >>> >>> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >>> Bryan Schulz >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can >>>>make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Hanson >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>> hi, >>>>> >>>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and >>>>> safe hiking. >>>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>>> Bryan >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>>> >>>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >>>>>> Loadstone is a free open source software program available to anybody >>>>>> with the appropriate cell phone. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader through >>>>>> Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along with >>>>>> other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please email me >>>>>> or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >>>>>>>> member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology to >>>>>>>> achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my >>>>>>>> hike. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a documentary >>>>>>>> of Mike's Hike. Please visit http://www.blindhiker.com for more >>>>>>>> information on my plans. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com > From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Dec 15 23:00:24 2008 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:00:24 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike References: <2BAE1F0E6C5740C8A7E404BB54AEC074@hp048378e4c43a><4E0EB6716AE54701BFFD82AC66121E59@notebook><428302EF8E84427E9E86E297C1B7DF6C@hp048378e4c43a><16B7768C7CDE4578A7D99875D6DD248A@notebook><171A71104580438C97422198816C490B@hp048378e4c43a><0F7554E14E504E21885BF6094F0599AE@notebook><54E31834714B44D983EAD11E6600358B@hp048378e4c43a><000601c95ece$46f64b70$4001a8c0@your9e3b38be92> Message-ID: <90F3FCC5AAD14B54A62A7A5AC1638340@hp048378e4c43a> Thank you for the advice about food bars. I agree with you about outhouses. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Locke Milholland" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > For better or worse, I've never been camping yet where there was an > outhouse you couldn't find by smell. > > I also suggest packing food bars: > http://www.raytechcatalog.com/product_info/mayday-food-bar-3600-calories-127.html > > I plan to get some for long court days. > Locke > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark BurningHawk" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:00 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike > > >> How much sighted help will you use? There will be aspects, such as >> finding the next shelter or the outhouse when at the shelter, which will >> prove difficult, even with GPS. How will you handle mail drops and >> re-supply caches? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:31 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >> >> >>>I expect the total hike to take six to eight months. I plan to leave in >>>March, 2009 and finish in September or October if all goes well. >>>Finishing in early November is an option. >>> >>> >>> Mike Hanson >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:05 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>> >>> >>>> hi, >>>> >>>> my point exactly especially when the nfb gave Eric $300,000. >>>> >>>> how long is the total hike and do you have a timeframe in mind? >>>> Bryan Schulz >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 7:24 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>> >>>> >>>>>I certainly hope I say something more intelligent than the lines you >>>>>included in your message! I think the statements such a project can >>>>>make deserve more thoughtful comments on my part than that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:27 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> sorry for the misjudgement. >>>>>> it sounds like your situation is a bit different and good luck and >>>>>> safe hiking. >>>>>> if you go on the tonight show, i pray you say something more >>>>>> intelligent than 'my piss froze before it hit the ground'. >>>>>> Bryan >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:46 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Mr. Schulz: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let me see if I can answer your questions. I purchased one GPS >>>>>>> program myself. I use Wayfinder Access. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I downloaded another GPS program called Loadstone for free. >>>>>>> Loadstone is a free open source software program available to >>>>>>> anybody with the appropriate cell phone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also use a Nokia N82. I got it, along with the KNFB Reader >>>>>>> through Minnesota State Services for the Blind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I plan to write a book about my experience. I will be looking for a >>>>>>> book deal. We are currently seeking funding from the NFB, along >>>>>>> with other sources. I hope this answers your questions. Please >>>>>>> email me or visit www.blindhiker.com for more information. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" >>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:34 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> this sounds cool but... >>>>>>>> did you get the gps unit for free?? >>>>>>>> are you looking for a book deal like Eric?? >>>>>>>> is this funded by the nfb as well?? >>>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Michael O. Hanson" >>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:24 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Mike's Hike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear Fellow Blind Lawyers: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My name is Mike Hanson. I happen to be blind. I have been a >>>>>>>>> member of this list for years and learned a great deal from it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I plan to hike the 2,174-mile Appalachian Trail using GPS starting >>>>>>>>> in March, 2009 to demonstrate the independence of persons with >>>>>>>>> visual impairments, the use of adaptive and assistive technology >>>>>>>>> to achieve our independence, and the value of GPS to the blind >>>>>>>>> community. Adaptive technology will be a major component of my >>>>>>>>> hike. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Award-winning videographer Gary L. Steffens will make a >>>>>>>>> documentary of Mike's Hike. Please visit >>>>>>>>> http://www.blindhiker.com for more information on my plans. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thank you for your support and suggestions so far. The only >>>>>>>>> obstacle on my path is funding. Help me prove prevailing myths >>>>>>>>> about the dependence of persons with disabilities wrong and open >>>>>>>>> doors for persons with visual impairments. Make me take a hike! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike Hanson >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for blindlaw: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stone_troll%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Dec 15 23:42:14 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:42:14 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Director of Externship Programs-Seattle University Law School - Ref#15248491 Message-ID: ________________________________ From: Lopez, Fe [mailto:lopezf at seattleu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:39 AM To: Chach Duarte White Subject: Position Open-Director of Externship Programs-SU Law School Seattle University School of Law is seeking candidates for the position of Director of Externship Programs to begin in Summer 2009 (see more details below and attached). If you know of strong candidates for this position, please encourage them to submit applicaiton materials or contact Vice Dean Clark to express their interest. DIRECTOR OF EXTERNSHIP PROGRAMS SEATTLE UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW Seattle University School of Law invites applications and nominations for the position of Director of Externship Programs to begin in Summer 2009. The School of Law is seeking a faculty Director who will build upon the strong foundation of our large and thriving Externship Programs (approximately 150 student externs across the fall, spring, and summer terms) and further deepen our commitment to providing a high quality educational and practice experience for our students. The Director of Externship Programs, working with the Director of the Ronald A. Peterson Law Clinic and the Vice Dean, counsels and advises students on externship opportunities; administers and oversees all field placements; educates and trains field supervisors and conducts site visits; supervises associated adjunct faculty and administrative staff; develops and implements externship policies and procedures; oversees and develops the externship seminar curricula; and provides vision and leadership for the School of Law's extensive and diverse externship offerings. The Director will be expected to teach at least one of the externship seminars and engage in professional development consistent with our 405(c) faculty contract standards. The Director will also work with other faculty and centers within the School of Law and University, as well as stakeholders in the community, to fulfill the school's mission of educating for justice. The Director is expected to model the highest levels of professionalism, reflective practice, and commitment to academic excellence. Qualifications: J.D. degree and a minimum of 3 years of practice experience are required; teaching experience is strongly preferred; clerkship experience is a plus. Seattle University School of Law educates ethical lawyers who distinguish themselves through their outstanding professional skills and their dedication to law in the service of justice. Faculty, students, and staff form a vibrant, diverse, and collaborative community dedicated to the mission of educating outstanding lawyers who are leaders for a just and humane world. The School of Law's commitment to academic distinction is grounded in its Jesuit Catholic tradition - one that encourages open inquiry, thoughtful reflection and concern for personal growth. Innovation, creativity and technological sophistication characterize our rigorous educational program, which prepares our graduates for a wide range of successful and rewarding careers in law, business, and public service. The School of Law occupies a state-of-the-art building in one of the nation's most vibrant and livable cities and is enjoying an exciting trajectory of programmatic growth and institutional advancement. Founded in 1891, Seattle University is one of 28 Jesuit universities in the U.S. Dedicated to educating the whole person, to professional formation, and to empowering leaders for a just and humane world, Seattle University is located near downtown on 48 acres in the Capitol Hill neighborhood. U.S. News and World Report's "Best Colleges 2009" ranks Seattle University among the top 10 universities in the West that offer a full range of masters and undergraduate programs. There are currently over 7,500 students enrolled within the university's eight schools and colleges. Seattle University is an Equal Opportunity Employer. For more information on Seattle University generally, please visit www.seattleu.edu; for more information on the School of Law, please visit www.law.seattleu.edu. Applications will be considered beginning January 12, 2008. Electronic applications are encouraged. Contact: Annette E. Clark, Vice Dean and Associate Professor of Law, Chair, Externship Program Director Search Committee, Seattle University School of Law, 901 12th Ave, Box 222000, Seattle, WA 98122. Telephone: (206) 398-4069; Fax: (206) 398-4310; Email: annclark at seattleu.edu. ________________________________________ HINT: When replying by email, please do not include the original message View and add comments online: https://www.bigtent.com/group/forum/message/15248491 From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Dec 17 20:56:14 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:56:14 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: ________________________________ From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:44 AM To: mjain at gdblegal.com; mlorenzo at graycary.com; nawl at nawl.org; ncai at ncai.org; nedy at wyjlaw.com; newmedia at ja.org; Neysas at dnfsb.gov; Maurer, Patricia; nijc at aol.com; nlove at opd.state.md.us; nmcconnell at jackscamp.com; noconnell at tabinc.org; noryrp at cox.net; nromulus at gmail.com; ntb at boglechang.com; ocaaba at cox.net; omanager at lawyerscomm.org; palsd at hotmail.com; patel at fr.com; patsyy at bellnunnally.com; pchanster at yahoo.com; pchapman at koonz.com; pgrewal at daycasebeer.com; pkim at lordbissell.com Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY CRIMINAL DIVISION, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE 08-MDTN-03 Cover letter and resume must be received by December 22, 2008. This vacancy will be opened until filled. Date posted: 12-15-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY CRIMINAL DIVISION, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE 08-MDTN-02 Cover letter and resume must be received by December 22, 2008. This vacancy will be opened until filled. Date posted: 12-15-2008 * DEPUTY GENERAL COUNSEL GS-0905-15 POSTING 290-ND-09 NATIONAL DRUG INTELLIGENCE CENTER JOHNSTOWN, PENNSYLVANIA Closing date January 12, 2009. Date posted: 12-15-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION/CRIMINAL SECTION DEPUTY CHIEF, GS-15 This position is open until January 5, 2009. Date posted: 12-12-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE U.S. TRUSTEE PROGRAM -- RIVERSIDE, CA ASSISTANT U.S. TRUSTEE This position will be open until December 29, 2008. Date posted: 12-12-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF ALASKA 08-AK-011 Resumes will be reviewed and acted upon on a rolling basis until the position is filled. Date posted: 12-09-2008 * DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DEPUTY CHIEF, GANG UNIT GS-905-15 CRIMINAL DIVISION WASHINGTON, D.C. ANNOUNCEMENT: 08-CRM-GSU-045 APPLICATION DEADLINE: FEBRUARY 8, 2009 Deadline date for submission is February 8, 2009. The cut-off will be the 15th and 30th of each month. Date posted: 12-08-2008 * ATTORNEY VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI GULFPORT, MISSISSIPPI ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 09-01 DECEMBER 5, 2008 All applications/resumes should be postmarked no later than December 12, 2008. Date posted: 12-05-2008 * DEPUTY CHIEF, COMPUTER CRIME AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY SECTION ES-905 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION WASHINGTON, D.C. VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER - 08-CRM-SES-06 Applications must be received by 12/29/08. Date posted: 12-05-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION NATURAL RESOURCES SECTION GS-12/15 OPEN: DECEMBER 5, 2008 CLOSE: JANUARY 16, 2009. VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: ENRD-09-007-EXC Date posted: 12-05-2008 * EXPERIENCED PROSECUTOR NEEDED TO SERVE AS AN OPDAT INTERMITTENT LEGAL ADVISOR IN BRAZIL Applications will be accepted until the position is filled Date posted: 12-05-2008 * EXPERIENCED PROSECUTOR NEEDED TO SERVE AS AN OPDAT INTERMITTENT LEGAL ADVISOR IN BANGLADESH Applications will be accepted until December 29, 2008. Date posted: 12-05-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE U.S. TRUSTEE'S OFFICE -- HARRISBURG, PA TRIAL ATTORNEY Applications must be postmarked by the closing date of December 19, 2008 and will be accepted up to five calendar days after the closing date. Date posted: 12-02-2008 * SPECIAL ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY PUBLIC LANDS ATTORNEY U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR SOLICITOR'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF NEVADA ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 09-NV-SAUSA-01 Application packages must be postmarked by December 15, 2008. Date posted: 12-01-2008 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Fri Dec 19 21:25:17 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:25:17 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Save the Date IMPACT Career Fair for Law Students and Attorneys with Disabilities Message-ID: ________________________________ From: CMPDL E-mail List [mailto:CMPDL-MENTORPROGRAM at MAIL.ABANET.ORG] On Behalf Of Barbara Carlson Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:56 AM To: CMPDL-MENTORPROGRAM at MAIL.ABANET.ORG Subject: Save the Date IMPACT Career Fair for Law Students and Attorneys with Disabilities [image001.gif] SAVE THE DATE! 5th Annual IMPACT Career Fair Friday, August 7, 2009 10:00 am - 5:00 pm Hotel TBA (Washington, DC Area) We hope you will join us again for the 5th Annual IMPACT Career Fair for Law Students and Attorneys with Disabilities in Washington, DC on Friday, August 7, 2009. You have the ability to prescreen applications from law students and graduates in the class of 2011 and earlier, from across the nation. Formal interviews will be held in the hotel Ballroom. * Registration fee for Law Firms & Corporations (includes one lunch; $25.00 for each additional lunch) $200.00 * Registration fee for Government & Public Interest (includes one lunch; $25.00 for each additional lunch) No Fee Registration will be available soon! We will send an email announcing when registration is live. For more information click here. ============== Mentor Program Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law American Bar Association CMPDL-MENTORPROGRAM at MAIL.ABANET.ORG http://www.abanet.org/disability/mentorprogram/mentor.shtml ------------------------------ To leave this list at any time, please send a message to listserv at mail.abanet.org. In the body of the message type "sign off cmpdl-mentorprogram." To read the list archives, please visit http://mail.abanet.org/archives/cmpdl-mentorprogram.html. If you have any questions about the list or the CMPDL in general, please contact William Phelan at phelanw at staff.abanet.org or 202-662-1576. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 8642 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From dandrews at visi.com Sun Dec 21 17:29:45 2008 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:29:45 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E13F23D@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot .gov> References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com> <33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E13F23D@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> Message-ID: Actually section 508 is a procurement law. It has to do with stuff purchased with federal funds. Dave At 02:43 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote: >Section 508 is strictly "Electronic and Information Technology" and >would not apply in this situation. > >More likely, Section 504, which applies to program access, would be >applicable here. Of course, access to the SSA website, electronic >documentation, and other technological apparatus is important, but if >the SSA doesn't send electronic notices to clients, then they don't >necessarily have to do it for blind clients under Section 508. Section >504 is a totally different matter, one that Jim discussed perfectly. > >Best, >Craig > >Craig Borne, Esq. >NHTSA/DOT >(202) 493-0627 >craig.borne at dot.gov > >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >On Behalf Of James Pepper >Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:07 PM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > >Charles and Jim: >SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be >accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do >with >their charter, they are required to be accessible. > >Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with >the >forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social >Security >Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for >the >blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more >concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This >confuses >the issue. > >What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you >can >walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the >content >with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there >in >front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by >the IT >people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test >their >pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by >the >blind. > >It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you >go >through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it >is >not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible >or it >isn't there is no in between. > >IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs >like >Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests >only >test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they >are >not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for >compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with >the >programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they >take >them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, >this >means that nothing is done when they do it wrong. > >This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the >Texas >Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming >its >products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were >not >accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The >demonstrated >the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is >now >in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible >accessibility. > >The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows >that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The >question >is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does >ACM >insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive >forms >and documents. > >The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is >accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into >this >all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge >their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But >that doesn't mean they know how to do it. > >You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon >an >accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as >fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you >must >do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online >seminars >how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents >videos >from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from >showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast >of >flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no >regard >for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule >was >in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on >automatically. > >So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. >The >first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited >for >W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in >minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites >should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium) >compliance is a test to determine if your website's code >is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write >code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to >determine if their IT people know what they are doing. > >Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they >actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace >them >with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up >webpages, >make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies >and >states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be >fixing bad code with other bad code. > >IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they >control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their >jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot >do >it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The >problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, >the >Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other >way >around. > >Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal >protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not >braille. > >I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS >and >Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies >who >think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are >English >only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish >descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act? > >There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do >it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix >this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can >make >SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and >Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not >have >all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most >of >SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot >of >time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF >format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think >SSA >could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and >integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already >familiar >with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT >people >that things are possible because after all, they run the agency. > >Sincerely, > >James G. Pepper >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/craig.borne%40 >dot.gov > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: >12/8/2008 9:38 AM From cjborne at comcast.net Sun Dec 21 22:31:42 2008 From: cjborne at comcast.net (Craig Borne) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:31:42 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Format Question In-Reply-To: References: <000325575662064ba5045d8707ae@google.com><33F75BFED8B0464E98F88836186BA754D6BC7A@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local><61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E13F23D@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> Message-ID: <00f401c963bb$e6117df0$7100a8c0@computer> Not exactly, Dave. Section 508 has elements of procurement law, but at its root is the accessibility of electronic and information technology to federal employees with disabilities. It covers websites to telephones, copy machines to fax machines. An element of Section 508 is certifications from vendors that the equipment is accessible, but the regs on 508 are very tech specific as to how the information and electronic technology should be accessible. Regs for Section 508 are found on the U.S. Access Board's website. Section 508, by and large, does not apply to the public; only federal employees. Section 504 applies to both federal employees (working in federal buildings) and recipients of federal financial assistance. Craig Craig Borne Baltimore, Maryland "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom." --Thomas Paine, Common Sense -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:30 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question Actually section 508 is a procurement law. It has to do with stuff purchased with federal funds. Dave At 02:43 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote: >Section 508 is strictly "Electronic and Information Technology" and >would not apply in this situation. > >More likely, Section 504, which applies to program access, would be >applicable here. Of course, access to the SSA website, electronic >documentation, and other technological apparatus is important, but if >the SSA doesn't send electronic notices to clients, then they don't >necessarily have to do it for blind clients under Section 508. Section >504 is a totally different matter, one that Jim discussed perfectly. > >Best, >Craig > >Craig Borne, Esq. >NHTSA/DOT >(202) 493-0627 >craig.borne at dot.gov > >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >On Behalf Of James Pepper >Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:07 PM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Format Question > >Charles and Jim: >SSA is under Section 508, they have to comply. They are required to be >accessible to the blind and there is no excuse and it has nothing to do >with >their charter, they are required to be accessible. > >Charles I contacted the folks at ACB and told them what I can do with >the >forms and they refused to even listen to me. I can make the Social >Security >Forms accessible and there would be no difference between the forms for >the >blind and the forms for everyone else. But I think the ACB is more >concerned with older technologies and not any interaction. This >confuses >the issue. > >What we need is accessibility, real substantial accessibility where you >can >walk into a court room and show that a blind person can access the >content >with their computer or device and show that it can be done, right there >in >front of a judge. That demonstration blows away any argument made by >the IT >people of a government agency because quite frankly they never test >their >pages. They simply do not test their work using the products used by >the >blind. > >It is astounding how simple this work can be demonstrated. And when you >go >through all of their code on webpages and explain each point and why it >is >not accessible, the courts listen to this, and it either is accessible >or it >isn't there is no in between. > >IT people only test for SEction 508 compliance using testing programs >like >Bobby or the Section 508 test in Adobe Acrobat. Both of these tests >only >test for specific items and they both say in their literature that they >are >not conclusing testing, that you have to manually test your pages for >compliance. But the IT people do not know this, they just test with >the >programs and claim compliance and show this to their bosses and they >take >them at their word. And since the IT professionals are self regulating, >this >means that nothing is done when they do it wrong. > >This is what is happening in the Texas Case with the NFB versus the >Texas >Workforce Commission which was over the idea that Oracle, while claiming >its >products are section 508 compliant, it was found that they actually were >not >accessible to the blind workers who used their software. The >demonstrated >the lack of accessibility in the court room. So the State of Texas is >now >in a mad rush to become accessible to the blind, real tangible >accessibility. > >The recent case against Target opens this up even greater. And it shows >that there is no tolerance for this type of nonsense anymore. The >question >is what formats are we going to use. Why not all of them? Why does >ACM >insist on converting everything to text when we can have interactive >forms >and documents. > >The problem here is IT officials who think that what they are doing is >accessible to the blind because they say it is accessible. I run into >this >all the time, the pride of an IT official and how dare anyone challenge >their work, they have been in the IT industry for at last 20 years. But >that doesn't mean they know how to do it. > >You see this in the training tutorials for software. When you come upon >an >accessibility issue the training tells you how to do it as simply and as >fast as possible because accessibility is considered a nuisance and you >must >do the bare minimum and that is all. Adobe teaches in their online >seminars >how to get around the Internet Explorer safety feature that prevents >videos >from turning on automatically. This feature prevents Flash Videos from >showing automatically so people who are photo sensitive can get a blast >of >flashing screen and thus have seizures and migraines. There is no >regard >for the consequences, they really do not care to find out why the rule >was >in place. They just think it is cool to have the video come on >automatically. > >So I recommend that failure standards be imposed upon all IT officials. >The >first thing that needs to be done is to have every webpage be audited >for >W3C compliance. There are some legitimate reasons for non compliance in >minor cases (blogs for instance) but that is not the norm. All websites >should be W3C compliant. W3C compliance (World Wide Web Consortium) >compliance is a test to determine if your website's code >is written properly; it is a test to determine if you know how to write >code. So this is an easy failure standard that management can use to >determine if their IT people know what they are doing. > >Web pages can be audited to determine who is working on them and if they >actually know how to write code. If they don't; fire them and replace >them >with someone who can write code properly. And this will speed up >webpages, >make them work properly and save organizations and government agencies >and >states a fortune in down time because their IT people will no longer be >fixing bad code with other bad code. > >IT people are the problem here, they are the face of the agency, they >control how the content is delivered and if they refuse to do their >jobs, when the agencies are told it cannot be done because they cannot >do >it, it is time to fire them and hire people who will do the work. The >problem here is who is actually running the agency? IT runs everything, >the >Social Security Adminstrator works for their IT people, not the other >way >around. > >Also SSA has forms in about 16 languages. SSA recognizes that for equal >protection you must present the forms in multiple languages, so why not >braille. > >I can make the forms accessible in all the languages supported by JAWS >and >Window Eyes, I have not tested for HAL. I noted that government agencies >who >think their forms are accessible, never do it for Spanish. They are >English >only accessible. So they are discriminating against people of Spanish >descent. You are all lawyers, isn't that against the Civil Rights Act? > >There is no excuse for SSA for not having accessible forms. I can do >it. Does anyone here have any connections to the case because I can fix >this situation. Or how do I get a grant to demonstrate this so we can >make >SSA accessible to the blind, in all the languages supported by JAWS and >Window Eyes? How would I go about showing the judge that ACB does not >have >all the answers, that it can be done in other formats? And since most >of >SSA's forms are already in PDF format, that can in many cases save a lot >of >time and effort including the fact that they are set up to handle PDF >format. But most of the forms would have to be reworked. I would think >SSA >could understant accessibility in an accessible PDF form more easily and >integrate the idea quicker than any other format. they are already >familiar >with the technology and what is happening here is trying to teach IT >people >that things are possible because after all, they run the agency. > >Sincerely, > >James G. Pepper >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/craig.borne%40 >dot.gov > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.c om > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: >12/8/2008 9:38 AM _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast. net From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Dec 31 17:45:26 2008 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:45:26 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: ________________________________ From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:10 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:52 AM To: nijc at aol.com; nlove at opd.state.md.us; nmcconnell at jackscamp.com; noconnell at tabinc.org; noryrp at cox.net; nromulus at gmail.com; ntb at boglechang.com; ocaaba at cox.net; omanager at lawyerscomm.org; palsd at hotmail.com; patel at fr.com; patsyy at bellnunnally.com; pchanster at yahoo.com; pchapman at koonz.com; pgrewal at daycasebeer.com; pkim at lordbissell.com; Maurer, Patricia; pmorrison at state.wv.us; poppy.johnston at unlv.edu; president at abaw.org; president at adc.org; president at apabala.org Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies * ATTORNEY ADVISOR EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW FALLS CHURCH, VA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-09-0016 All Applications must be received in the Human Resources Office by the close of business on January 5, 2009. Date posted: 12-29-2008 * UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA ASSISTANT UNTIED STATES ATTORNEY SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA DECEMBER 29, 2008 09-EDCA-02A Applications should be postmarked no later than January 21, 2009. Date posted: 12-29-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION, DISABILITY RIGHTS SECTION SUPERVISORY TRIAL ATTORNEY GS-905-15 This position is open until January 13, 2009. Date posted: 12-24-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY, ATTORNEY ADVISOR / GS-12/13 ANNOUNCEMENT: OLA-09-01 This position is open until January 15, 2009. Date posted: 12-22-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 08-AUSASDGA-07 Deadline date Friday, January 5, 2009. Date posted: 12-22-2008 * ASSISTANT BRANCH DIRECTOR/GS-15 CIVIL DIVISION, COMMERCIAL LITIGATION BRANCH NATIONAL COURTS SECTION WASHINGTON, DC Application materials must be submitted no later than January 9, 2009. Date posted: 12-22-2008 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION APPELLATE SECTION TRIAL ATTORNEY / GS-13 to GS-15 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 08-CRM-APP-046 This position is open until filled. Date posted: 12-22-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 09-SDTX-01 (AUSA-TERM) Positions are open until filled. The initial cutoff date for receipt of applications is December 31, 2008. Date posted: 12-19-2008 * ATTORNEY-ADVISOR FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS NORTHEAST REGIONAL OFFICE (CONSOLIDATED LEGAL CENTER) PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA GS-905-12/13 This position is open until filled, but no later than January 7, 2009. Date posted: 12-17-2008 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA 09-AZ-02 All materials must be received by January 16, 2009. Date posted: 12-16-2008 * CHIEF IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-09-0012 Applications received after February 13, 2009 will not be considered. Date posted: 12-16-2008 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov