From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Feb 2 20:52:53 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 14:52:53 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, Inc. Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Robin Jones Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, Inc. The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great Lakes ADA Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a settlement agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with disabilities at Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation that was initiated after the Department received several complaints alleging that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its rules, policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities in violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged that persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or were denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. Service animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to work or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the public, including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and Neighborhood Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for customers with disabilities, including: * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of Title III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, lifting, and carrying items; * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated challenges by Wal-Mart employees; * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title III of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website and in employee areas at its stores; * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into a fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's refusal to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal access to persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages from the fund and the amount of damages to be received. In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to increase public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities who use service animals. The nature and scope of the public service announcement campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department of Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement From craig.borne at dot.gov Mon Feb 2 21:08:03 2009 From: craig.borne at dot.gov (craig.borne at dot.gov) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 16:08:03 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject) Message-ID: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E25322E@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> Hello all, There may be an opportunity for the following opening at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) located in Washington, DC. This unit is committed to Schedule A Hiring (a hiring authority within the Federal Government that is based on proof of disability and is non-competitive). Please send me your resume ASAP. Other than the below, I have no further information regarding this anticipated opening. Craig "Incumbent is responsible for the collection, analysis and monitoring of data and information systems in the Office of the Chief Information Officer. This includes Exhibit 300/53 Business Case development; writing and executing enterprise architecture data calls, performing OMB A-11 Operational Analysis, Alternatives Analysis reports and feasibility studies; cost/benefit analysis and Earned Value Management (EVM) calculations; performing system security policy, procedure, implementation, testing and integration development; end user project support; security monitoring of management, operational and technical security controls; serving as a liaison to customers and performing due diligence risk assessments in support of Certification and Accreditation efforts." "There is a heavy emphasis on Capital Planning & Investment control (CPIC), as well as budget planning activities that optimize NHTSA's ability to maximize return on its IT Investment Portfolio using eCPIC and/or WorkLenz tools." Craig Borne, Esq. Equal Opportunity Specialist Disability Program Manager National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Office of Civil Rights 1200 New Jersey Avenue, Southeast Suite W43-321 Washington, DC 20590 Office : (202) 493-0627 Fax: (202) 493-2990 Email: craig.borne at dot.gov The information contained in this communication (including any attachments) may be confidential and legally privileged. This email may not serve as a contractual agreement unless explicit written agreement for this purpose has been made. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of its contents is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender indicating that it was received in error and delete the original message and any copy of it from your computer system. From craig.borne at dot.gov Mon Feb 2 21:10:38 2009 From: craig.borne at dot.gov (craig.borne at dot.gov) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 16:10:38 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Possible Opening in Information Technology (IT) at NHTSA In-Reply-To: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E221401@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> References: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E221401@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> Message-ID: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E25322F@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> Please distribute widely Hello all, There may be an opportunity for the following opening at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) located in Washington, DC. This unit is committed to Schedule A Hiring (a hiring authority within the Federal Government that is based on proof of disability and is non-competitive). Please send me your resume ASAP. Other than the below, I have no further information regarding this anticipated opening. Craig "Incumbent is responsible for the collection, analysis and monitoring of data and information systems in the Office of the Chief Information Officer. This includes Exhibit 300/53 Business Case development; writing and executing enterprise architecture data calls, performing OMB A-11 Operational Analysis, Alternatives Analysis reports and feasibility studies; cost/benefit analysis and Earned Value Management (EVM) calculations; performing system security policy, procedure, implementation, testing and integration development; end user project support; security monitoring of management, operational and technical security controls; serving as a liaison to customers and performing due diligence risk assessments in support of Certification and Accreditation efforts." "There is a heavy emphasis on Capital Planning & Investment control (CPIC), as well as budget planning activities that optimize NHTSA's ability to maximize return on its IT Investment Portfolio using eCPIC and/or WorkLenz tools." Craig Borne, Esq. Equal Opportunity Specialist Disability Program Manager National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Office of Civil Rights 1200 New Jersey Avenue, Southeast Suite W43-321 Washington, DC 20590 Office : (202) 493-0627 Fax: (202) 493-2990 Email: craig.borne at dot.gov The information contained in this communication (including any attachments) may be confidential and legally privileged. This email may not serve as a contractual agreement unless explicit written agreement for this purpose has been made. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of its contents is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender indicating that it was received in error and delete the original message and any copy of it from your computer system. From mikefry79 at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 23:31:16 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 15:31:16 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, Inc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902021531v6871cfcfn7f0bf01260a497ca@mail.gmail.com> woowho! On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Nightingale, Noel wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On > Behalf Of Robin Jones > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, > Inc. > > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great Lakes ADA > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: > > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and Wal-Mart > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act > > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a settlement > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans with > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with disabilities at > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation that > was initiated after the Department received several complaints alleging > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its rules, > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities in > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged that > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or were > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. Service > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to work > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. > > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the public, > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and Neighborhood > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for > customers with disabilities, including: > > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of Title > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, > lifting, and carrying items; > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title III > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website > and in employee areas at its stores; > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. > > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into a > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's refusal > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal access to > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages from the > fund and the amount of damages to be received. > > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to increase > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities who use > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service announcement > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. > > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department of > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From mar.cra at comcast.net Tue Feb 3 03:06:56 2009 From: mar.cra at comcast.net (Craig%20R.%20Anderson) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 03:06:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, Inc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <714482247.2669221233630416725.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this settlement Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for the next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With the federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal year, and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended its scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? Craig ----- Noel Nightingale wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On > Behalf Of Robin Jones > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, > Inc. > > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great Lakes ADA > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: > > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and Wal-Mart > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act > > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a settlement > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans with > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with disabilities at > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation that > was initiated after the Department received several complaints alleging > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its rules, > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities in > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged that > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or were > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. Service > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to work > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. > > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the public, > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and Neighborhood > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for > customers with disabilities, including: > > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of Title > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, > lifting, and carrying items; > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title III > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website > and in employee areas at its stores; > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. > > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into a > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's refusal > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal access to > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages from the > fund and the amount of damages to be received. > > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to increase > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities who use > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service announcement > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. > > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department of > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 04:26:54 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:26:54 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation Message-ID: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> Hi all, We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my intervention. I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be a good starting place. *grin* While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process used here in Oregon anyway: 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to the DSO. 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the book. 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such as ABBYY FineReader. 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in theory. 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a "natural" voice into mp3 files. 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week quarter. The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books are not available any sooner than that. The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours produces significantly better output in that time frame than her predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I am aware of in my state. One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or won't provide the textbook in question. And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a student who needs it has registered for the class and purchased a book and not always even then. This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, correct, digital source. With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Joseph From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 3 05:28:50 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:28:50 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <8658CD6020E646829527F77AE9DB41D1@spike> While it sounds like there are problems, some times when the student is given the option to solve these problems, such as doing their own scanning, sending books to be recorded or transcribed, purchasing the books on their own etc. may solve the problem. While their definitely needs to be options for students to obtain books early as a student on a campus I would not want to be bound by a uniform policy set forth by a disabled student office or any other body to determine what works for me. I have attained two advanced degrees and for one I did most of my own scanning when it was not convenient to have books already recorded. My bachelor's and master's degrees were attained at a time scanning books was not a reality and not only did I have to the necessary studying, I had to schedule live readers make sure that appropriate forms were turned in so they would be paid as well as to recruit and hire readers that I found acceptable. Granted this was lots of work It provided me the opportunity to learn many valuable skills that have lasted through many years of employee supervision and management. Students choosing to develop and utilize such skills gives necessary preparation for the real world that some times is taken away by having all of these administrative services provided. I have seen too many cases where blind and other disabled students finish college or graduate school and because of everything being done for them are not prepared for the real world where if successfully employed they are on their own. I realize that this may be somewhat of an unpopular position but I believe that this is a serious issue that merits discussion although perhaps off topic for this list. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Cc: Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > Hi all, > > We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon and I > suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible textbooks > here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I should talk > to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example of textbook > legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national problem. Some > universities solve it well enough, but the closest to that at an Oregon > university is the direct result of my intervention. > > I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is > there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told > California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that cannot be > obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be a good > starting place. *grin* > > While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are aware > of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process used here in > Oregon anyway: > > 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). Books > cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to the DSO. > 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. > 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the book. > 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. > 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. > 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such as > ABBYY FineReader. > 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. > 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in > theory. > 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a "natural" > voice into mp3 files. > 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled textbooks > and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week quarter. > > The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books are > not available any sooner than that. > > The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions of > badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling > interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages > missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that my > DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized textbook > once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours produces > significantly better output in that time frame than her predecessor, but > it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. > > The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per book. > The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, and this > is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I am aware of > in my state. > > One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but the > better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students because as > bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a month for the > publishers to finally respond that they don't have or won't provide the > textbook in question. > > And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible for > scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not often > have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required for > graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not provide > electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a student who needs > it has registered for the class and purchased a book and not always even > then. > > This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing electronic > copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that the electronic > books are available to the DSO immediately to begin doing whatever they > need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, correct, digital source. > > With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it > stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Joseph > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 07:02:29 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 23:02:29 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <8658CD6020E646829527F77AE9DB41D1@spike> References: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> <8658CD6020E646829527F77AE9DB41D1@spike> Message-ID: <20090203070229.GC23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> Chuck, I'm not looking to debate the responsibility of blind people to find a solution no matter what. I will find whatever solution I have to. I am very resourceful, but that's not the issue here. Other states have legislation to require publishers to provide electronic books, and California at least is supposed to require that higher education institutions use ONLY books for which the electronic version is available. This is the correct approach. This needs to national law, just as we have IDEA now for K-12. We have not managed to convince lawmakers at the national level, however, and the only thing that we can do is work at the state level. Now's the time in Oregon. Joseph On Mon, Feb 02, 2009 at 09:28:50PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > While it sounds like there are problems, some times when the student is > given the option to solve these problems, such as doing their own > scanning, sending books to be recorded or transcribed, purchasing the > books on their own etc. may solve the problem. While their definitely > needs to be options for students to obtain books early as a student on a > campus I would not want to be bound by a uniform policy set forth by a > disabled student office or any other body to determine what works for me. > I have attained two advanced degrees and for one I did most of my own > scanning when it was not convenient to have books already recorded. My > bachelor's and master's degrees were attained at a time scanning books > was not a reality and not only did I have to the necessary studying, I > had to schedule live readers make sure that appropriate forms were turned > in so they would be paid as well as to recruit and hire readers that I > found acceptable. Granted this was lots of work It provided me the > opportunity to learn many valuable skills that have lasted through many > years of employee supervision and management. Students choosing to > develop and utilize such skills gives necessary preparation for the real > world that some times is taken away by having all of these administrative > services provided. I have seen too many cases where blind and other > disabled students finish college or graduate school and because of > everything being done for them are not prepared for the real world where > if successfully employed they are on their own. I realize that this may > be somewhat of an unpopular position but I believe that this is a serious > issue that merits discussion although perhaps off topic for this list. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Cc: > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:26 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > >> Hi all, >> >> We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon >> and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible >> textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I >> should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example >> of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national >> problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the closest to >> that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my intervention. >> >> I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is >> there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >> California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that cannot >> be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be a good >> starting place. *grin* >> >> While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are >> aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process >> used here in Oregon anyway: >> >> 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). Books >> cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to the >> DSO. >> 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >> 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the book. >> 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >> 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. >> 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such >> as ABBYY FineReader. >> 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >> 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in >> theory. >> 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >> "natural" voice into mp3 files. >> 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled textbooks >> and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week quarter. >> >> The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books are >> not available any sooner than that. >> >> The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions >> of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling >> interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages >> missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that >> my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >> textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours >> produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >> predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. >> >> The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per >> book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, >> and this is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I >> am aware of in my state. >> >> One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but the >> better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students because >> as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a month for >> the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or won't provide >> the textbook in question. >> >> And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible >> for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not >> often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required >> for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not >> provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a >> student who needs it has registered for the class and purchased a book >> and not always even then. >> >> This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >> electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that >> the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin >> doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, >> correct, digital source. >> >> With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it >> stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Joseph >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Tue Feb 3 15:53:25 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 07:53:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <8658CD6020E646829527F77AE9DB41D1@spike> References: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> <8658CD6020E646829527F77AE9DB41D1@spike> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B148@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> As another old-timer, I fully agree with Chuck. Yes, it is nice when ready-made accessible text is handed to you, but knowing how to handle this by yourself is a very good lesson. Especially for those intending to engage in the practice of law, being totally self-reliant, or at least being prepared to be so at the drop of a hat, is in my opinion part of your on-going professional responsibilities to your client and the courts. Sincerely, Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 9:29 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation While it sounds like there are problems, some times when the student is given the option to solve these problems, such as doing their own scanning, sending books to be recorded or transcribed, purchasing the books on their own etc. may solve the problem. While their definitely needs to be options for students to obtain books early as a student on a campus I would not want to be bound by a uniform policy set forth by a disabled student office or any other body to determine what works for me. I have attained two advanced degrees and for one I did most of my own scanning when it was not convenient to have books already recorded. My bachelor's and master's degrees were attained at a time scanning books was not a reality and not only did I have to the necessary studying, I had to schedule live readers make sure that appropriate forms were turned in so they would be paid as well as to recruit and hire readers that I found acceptable. Granted this was lots of work It provided me the opportunity to learn many valuable skills that have lasted through many years of employee supervision and management. Students choosing to develop and utilize such skills gives necessary preparation for the real world that some times is taken away by having all of these administrative services provided. I have seen too many cases where blind and other disabled students finish college or graduate school and because of everything being done for them are not prepared for the real world where if successfully employed they are on their own. I realize that this may be somewhat of an unpopular position but I believe that this is a serious issue that merits discussion although perhaps off topic for this list. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Cc: Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > Hi all, > > We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon > and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible > textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I > should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example > of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national > problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the closest to > that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my intervention. > > I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is > there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told > California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that > cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be > a good starting place. *grin* > > While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are > aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process > used here in Oregon anyway: > > 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). > Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to the DSO. > 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. > 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the book. > 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. > 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. > 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such > as ABBYY FineReader. > 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. > 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in > theory. > 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a "natural" > voice into mp3 files. > 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled > textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week quarter. > > The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books > are not available any sooner than that. > > The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions > of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling > interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages > missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that > my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized > textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours > produces significantly better output in that time frame than her > predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. > > The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per book. > The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, and > this is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I am > aware of in my state. > > One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but > the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students > because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a > month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or > won't provide the textbook in question. > > And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible > for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not > often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required > for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not > provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a > student who needs it has registered for the class and purchased a book > and not always even then. > > This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing > electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that > the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin > doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, correct, digital source. > > With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it > stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Joseph > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s > bcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov From rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 16:21:17 2009 From: rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 08:21:17 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <647B1F5925EB460983BDC6AA0C5807ED@RJT> You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that the site may not have been updated for a while. www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation Hi all, We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my intervention. I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be a good starting place. *grin* While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process used here in Oregon anyway: 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to the DSO. 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the book. 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such as ABBYY FineReader. 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in theory. 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a "natural" voice into mp3 files. 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week quarter. The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books are not available any sooner than that. The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours produces significantly better output in that time frame than her predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I am aware of in my state. One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or won't provide the textbook in question. And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a student who needs it has registered for the class and purchased a book and not always even then. This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, correct, digital source. With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Joseph _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo .com From rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 16:25:27 2009 From: rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 08:25:27 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Those affected by these issues might want to contact the United States Department of Education, Office of Civil Rights. Purely anecdotal information suggest that the San Francisco office is very helpful on these issues, while other offices are in various phases of coming to grips with these concerns. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation Hi all, We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my intervention. I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be a good starting place. *grin* While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process used here in Oregon anyway: 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to the DSO. 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the book. 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such as ABBYY FineReader. 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in theory. 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a "natural" voice into mp3 files. 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week quarter. The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books are not available any sooner than that. The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours produces significantly better output in that time frame than her predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I am aware of in my state. One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or won't provide the textbook in question. And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a student who needs it has registered for the class and purchased a book and not always even then. This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, correct, digital source. With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Joseph _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo .com From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Tue Feb 3 18:01:46 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 11:01:46 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] general input please Message-ID: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> Greetings: Last April, the National Association of Blind Lawyers conducted a training session with a WestLaw representative who knew JAWS and assistive technology for the blind/visually impaired. Many of us found the training extremely valuable because we were working in an accessible computer lab and the instructor could give us JAWS specific ways to access the information. Of course, it was also very helpful that we could hear exactly what she was doing. We are contemplating similar and expanded efforts in the future. These efforts would not only include additional training on technology based aids like Westlaw or Lexis but also how to manage litigation using alternative techniques and assistive technology. We could also offer some training for non-litigators who are involved in more regulatory or transactional work. One way to think of this is a series of training academies for blind/visually impaired attorneys. Of course, CLE would be an important part of any of this. So, before we plunge forward, I wanted to gage a sense of potential demand for such training. Assuming CLE credit would be offered and participants would be trained how to maximize their efficiency using assistive technology and other techniques, would your organization/employer pay for such training? If you are a solo/small firmer, would you pay for it? It would also make sense to offer this training to law students so that they could gain valuable skills prior to even setting foot in the legal profession. I suspect that voc rehab agencies could be convinced to pay for such blindness specific training. I know that the next question is how much? The truth is we don't know exactly. There could be a wide variety of programs offered differing greatly in scope. If, for example, we offered a NITA like trial training course using assistive technology and teaching effective, nonvisual litigation techniques, the training might be a week and would probably cost something similar to courses like NITA's. One or two day seminars emphasizing legal research would, of course, be much different in scope and cost less. Any way, I am seeking general input and thoughts about potential training programs. Not only am I attempting to gage demand, I am also seeking ideas about the type of training folks would find useful. I thank you in advance for your help. Please feel free to send me a message directly or respond generally to the list. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 19:51:05 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 11:51:05 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B148@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> <8658CD6020E646829527F77AE9DB41D1@spike> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B148@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: <20090203195105.GA26546@yumi.bluecherry.net> Once again, it's not the point. The point is that the law requires materials that are "as effective as" those available to sighted students. I honestly cannot believe that the NFB has given up the fight for accessible materials. I also cannot believe that blindlaw cannot do better than suggest that the law is irrelevant and that blind people must learn how to spend hours scanning and proofreading. I also think that I would be reluctant to hire a blind attorney if their billable hours are likely to include time spent scanning every paper document handed to them. It seems more reasonable to me that a blind attorney's time is more valuable being an attorney. There are people who are greatly skilled at managing documents and files. I would suggest that a blind attorney hire one and train that person in the expert handling of OCR software. It is much the same in school. Knowing how to do it is different from spending valuable hours that should be spent elsewhere next to a scanner trying to produce results that will be inferior to a direct digital copy. Finally, I think it is reasonable to suggest that the inadequacies of training in the skills of blindness in this country is no excuse for failure of the university system to provide timely and accessible materials. This problem should be solved by direct instruction in how to use the scanning software when needed, as well as how to teach others to use it, not by letting publishers off the hook. Joseph On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 07:53:25AM -0800, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: >As another old-timer, I fully agree with Chuck. Yes, it is nice when >ready-made accessible text is handed to you, but knowing how to handle >this by yourself is a very good lesson. Especially for those intending >to engage in the practice of law, being totally self-reliant, or at >least being prepared to be so at the drop of a hat, is in my opinion >part of your on-going professional responsibilities to your client and >the courts. > >Sincerely, >Tim Ford > >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net >Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 9:29 PM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > >While it sounds like there are problems, some times when the student is >given the option to solve these problems, such as doing their own >scanning, sending books to be recorded or transcribed, purchasing the >books on their own etc. may solve the problem. While their definitely >needs to be options for students to obtain books early as a student on a >campus I would not want to be bound by a uniform policy set forth by a >disabled student office or any other body to determine what works for >me. I have attained two advanced degrees and for one I did most of my >own scanning when it was not convenient to have books already recorded. >My bachelor's and master's degrees were attained at a time scanning >books was not a reality and not only did I have to the necessary >studying, I had to schedule live readers make sure that appropriate >forms were turned in so they would be paid as well as to recruit and >hire readers that I found acceptable. Granted this was lots of work It >provided me the opportunity to learn many valuable skills that have >lasted through many years of employee supervision and management. >Students choosing to develop and utilize such skills gives necessary >preparation for the real world that some times is taken away by having >all of these administrative services provided. I have seen too many >cases where blind and other disabled students finish college or graduate >school and because of everything being done for them are not prepared >for the real world where if successfully employed they are on their own. >I realize that this may be somewhat of an unpopular position but I >believe that this is a serious issue that merits discussion although >perhaps off topic for this list. >Chuck >----- Original Message ----- >From: "T. Joseph Carter" >To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >Cc: >Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:26 PM >Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > >> Hi all, >> >> We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon >> and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible >> textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I > >> should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example >> of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national >> problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the closest to >> that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my intervention. >> >> I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is >> there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >> California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that >> cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be >> a good starting place. *grin* >> >> While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are >> aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process >> used here in Oregon anyway: >> >> 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). >> Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to >the DSO. >> 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >> 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the >book. >> 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >> 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. >> 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such > >> as ABBYY FineReader. >> 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >> 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in >> theory. >> 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >"natural" >> voice into mp3 files. >> 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled >> textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week >quarter. >> >> The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books >> are not available any sooner than that. >> >> The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions >> of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling >> interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages >> missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that >> my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >> textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours >> produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >> predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. >> >> The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per >book. >> The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, and >> this is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I am >> aware of in my state. >> >> One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but >> the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students >> because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a >> month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or >> won't provide the textbook in question. >> >> And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible >> for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not >> often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required > >> for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not >> provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a >> student who needs it has registered for the class and purchased a book > >> and not always even then. >> >> This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >> electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that >> the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin >> doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, >correct, digital source. >> >> With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it > >> stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Joseph >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s >> bcglobal.net > > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp >h.ca.gov > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From b75205 at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 20:19:03 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (b75205 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 20:19:03 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <647B1F5925EB460983BDC6AA0C5807ED@RJT> Message-ID: <00221532c8ace2c12a046209613d@google.com> Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. Even trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By the way you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they have to reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people do not know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find out what is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a serious time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state are extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this money. Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there are organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on in Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are free. The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. That's where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit more complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are cutting up books. By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or InDesign. James Pepper On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." wrote: > You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that the site > > > may not have been updated for a while. > > > > > > www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > > > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon > > > and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible > > > textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who > > > I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good > > > example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a > > > national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the > > > closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my > > > intervention. > > > > > > I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is > > > there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told > > > California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that > > > cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be > > > a good starting place. *grin* > > > > > > While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are > > > aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process > > > used here in Oregon anyway: > > > > > > 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). > > > Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks > > > to the DSO. > > > 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. > > > 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the > > > book. > > > 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. > > > 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. > > > 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software > > > such as ABBYY FineReader. > > > 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. > > > 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in > > > theory. > > > 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a > > > "natural" voice into mp3 files. > > > 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled > > > textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week > > > quarter. > > > > > > The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books > > > are not available any sooner than that. > > > > > > The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions > > > of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling > > > interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages > > > missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that > > > my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized > > > textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours > > > produces significantly better output in that time frame than her > > > predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. > > > > > > The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per > > > book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed > > > books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational > > > institutions I am aware of in my state. > > > > > > One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but > > > the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students > > > because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a > > > month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or > > > won't provide the textbook in question. > > > > > > And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible > > > for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not > > > often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume > > > required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers > > > will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only > > > when a student who needs it has registered for the class and > > > purchased a book and not always even then. > > > > > > This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing > > > electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that > > > the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin > > > doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, > > > correct, digital source. > > > > > > With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure > > > it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Joseph > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > .com" target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo > > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > From rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 21:19:23 2009 From: rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:19:23 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] general input please In-Reply-To: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> References: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> Message-ID: <000901c98645$1631d600$6901a8c0@RThomas> Yes; especially if it involves some of the state-of-the-art software for litigation. Respectfully, Russell J. Thomas, Jr. THOMAS & ASSOCIATES Orange County Office 4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101 Newport Beach, California 92660 T: (949) 752-0101 F: (949) 257-4756 M: (949) 466-7238 Beverly Hills Office 9107 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 450 Beverly Hills, California 90210 T: (310) 461-3561 -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:02 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] general input please Greetings: Last April, the National Association of Blind Lawyers conducted a training session with a WestLaw representative who knew JAWS and assistive technology for the blind/visually impaired. Many of us found the training extremely valuable because we were working in an accessible computer lab and the instructor could give us JAWS specific ways to access the information. Of course, it was also very helpful that we could hear exactly what she was doing. We are contemplating similar and expanded efforts in the future. These efforts would not only include additional training on technology based aids like Westlaw or Lexis but also how to manage litigation using alternative techniques and assistive technology. We could also offer some training for non-litigators who are involved in more regulatory or transactional work. One way to think of this is a series of training academies for blind/visually impaired attorneys. Of course, CLE would be an important part of any of this. So, before we plunge forward, I wanted to gage a sense of potential demand for such training. Assuming CLE credit would be offered and participants would be trained how to maximize their efficiency using assistive technology and other techniques, would your organization/employer pay for such training? If you are a solo/small firmer, would you pay for it? It would also make sense to offer this training to law students so that they could gain valuable skills prior to even setting foot in the legal profession. I suspect that voc rehab agencies could be convinced to pay for such blindness specific training. I know that the next question is how much? The truth is we don't know exactly. There could be a wide variety of programs offered differing greatly in scope. If, for example, we offered a NITA like trial training course using assistive technology and teaching effective, nonvisual litigation techniques, the training might be a week and would probably cost something similar to courses like NITA's. One or two day seminars emphasizing legal research would, of course, be much different in scope and cost less. Any way, I am seeking general input and thoughts about potential training programs. Not only am I attempting to gage demand, I am also seeking ideas about the type of training folks would find useful. I thank you in advance for your help. Please feel free to send me a message directly or respond generally to the list. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo .com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 3 22:12:07 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 14:12:07 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] general input please In-Reply-To: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> References: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> Message-ID: <2419CF2F47874122A3493ADF2871B8AE@spike> This sounds like a good idea. As a freelance paralegal that pays for my own training I would like to see some of this training with on line components or with the use of teleconferencing or web conferencing. Transportation and lodging costs can become prohibitive at times. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:01 AM Subject: [blindlaw] general input please Greetings: Last April, the National Association of Blind Lawyers conducted a training session with a WestLaw representative who knew JAWS and assistive technology for the blind/visually impaired. Many of us found the training extremely valuable because we were working in an accessible computer lab and the instructor could give us JAWS specific ways to access the information. Of course, it was also very helpful that we could hear exactly what she was doing. We are contemplating similar and expanded efforts in the future. These efforts would not only include additional training on technology based aids like Westlaw or Lexis but also how to manage litigation using alternative techniques and assistive technology. We could also offer some training for non-litigators who are involved in more regulatory or transactional work. One way to think of this is a series of training academies for blind/visually impaired attorneys. Of course, CLE would be an important part of any of this. So, before we plunge forward, I wanted to gage a sense of potential demand for such training. Assuming CLE credit would be offered and participants would be trained how to maximize their efficiency using assistive technology and other techniques, would your organization/employer pay for such training? If you are a solo/small firmer, would you pay for it? It would also make sense to offer this training to law students so that they could gain valuable skills prior to even setting foot in the legal profession. I suspect that voc rehab agencies could be convinced to pay for such blindness specific training. I know that the next question is how much? The truth is we don't know exactly. There could be a wide variety of programs offered differing greatly in scope. If, for example, we offered a NITA like trial training course using assistive technology and teaching effective, nonvisual litigation techniques, the training might be a week and would probably cost something similar to courses like NITA's. One or two day seminars emphasizing legal research would, of course, be much different in scope and cost less. Any way, I am seeking general input and thoughts about potential training programs. Not only am I attempting to gage demand, I am also seeking ideas about the type of training folks would find useful. I thank you in advance for your help. Please feel free to send me a message directly or respond generally to the list. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From stiehm.law at juno.com Tue Feb 3 22:13:49 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:13:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] general input please Message-ID: <20090203.171349.5028.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> You may want to consider a product called Fastcase in your training. It is a web-based research program that comes as a benefit of membership in many bar associations. For example, here in Virginia we all have access to Fastcase for legal research. It is a web 2.0 service. I'm not sure how well it would integrate with JAWS, but you may want to check with their tech people. If nothing else an inquiry may put pressure on them to make the program JAWS friendly. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 11:01:46 -0700 "Scott C. LaBarre" writes: > Greetings: > > Last April, the National Association of Blind Lawyers conducted a > training session with a WestLaw representative who knew JAWS and > assistive technology for the blind/visually impaired. Many of us > found the training extremely valuable because we were working in an > accessible computer lab and the instructor could give us JAWS > specific ways to access the information. Of course, it was also > very helpful that we could hear exactly what she was doing. > > We are contemplating similar and expanded efforts in the future. > These efforts would not only include additional training on > technology based aids like Westlaw or Lexis but also how to manage > litigation using alternative techniques and assistive technology. > We could also offer some training for non-litigators who are > involved in more regulatory or transactional work. One way to think > of this is a series of training academies for blind/visually > impaired attorneys. Of course, CLE would be an important part of > any of this. > > So, before we plunge forward, I wanted to gage a sense of potential > demand for such training. Assuming CLE credit would be offered and > participants would be trained how to maximize their efficiency using > assistive technology and other techniques, would your > organization/employer pay for such training? If you are a > solo/small firmer, would you pay for it? It would also make sense > to offer this training to law students so that they could gain > valuable skills prior to even setting foot in the legal profession. > I suspect that voc rehab agencies could be convinced to pay for such > blindness specific training. > > I know that the next question is how much? The truth is we don't > know exactly. There could be a wide variety of programs offered > differing greatly in scope. If, for example, we offered a NITA like > trial training course using assistive technology and teaching > effective, nonvisual litigation techniques, the training might be a > week and would probably cost something similar to courses like > NITA's. One or two day seminars emphasizing legal research would, > of course, be much different in scope and cost less. > > Any way, I am seeking general input and thoughts about potential > training programs. Not only am I attempting to gage demand, I am > also seeking ideas about the type of training folks would find > useful. I thank you in advance for your help. Please feel free to > send me a message directly or respond generally to the list. > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you > may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you > received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) > 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from > your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the > Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Click to learn about options trading and get the latest information. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2SBFOhsj0x7InGMd6Xf7k07yfQ0PzHAkOxHLztWfLEghDM7/ From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 3 22:35:39 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 14:35:39 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <00221532c8ace2c12a046209613d@google.com> References: <00221532c8ace2c12a046209613d@google.com> Message-ID: <71DE6358655A4AC2AA059BAB91F9014B@spike> Good points. Bookshare.org has converted thousands of books to daisy format. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Russell J. Thomas; Jr." ; Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the > California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. Even > trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By the way > you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. > > The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they have to > reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people do > not know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find out > what is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a > serious time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state > are extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this > money. > > Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. > > Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there are > organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on in > Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are free. > > The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. That's > where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit more > complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are > cutting up books. > > By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or InDesign. > > James Pepper > > On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." > wrote: >> You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that the > site >> >> >> may not have been updated for a while. >> >> >> >> >> >> www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> >> >> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >> >> >> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM >> >> >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >> >> Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> >> >> We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon >> >> >> and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible >> >> >> textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who >> >> >> I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good >> >> >> example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a >> >> >> national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the >> >> >> closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my >> >> >> intervention. >> >> >> >> >> >> I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is >> >> >> there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >> >> >> California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that >> >> >> cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be >> >> >> a good starting place. *grin* >> >> >> >> >> >> While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are >> >> >> aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process >> >> >> used here in Oregon anyway: >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). >> >> >> Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks >> >> >> to the DSO. >> >> >> 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >> >> >> 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the >> >> >> book. >> >> >> 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >> >> >> 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. >> >> >> 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software >> >> >> such as ABBYY FineReader. >> >> >> 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >> >> >> 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in >> >> >> theory. >> >> >> 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >> >> >> "natural" voice into mp3 files. >> >> >> 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled >> >> >> textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week >> >> >> quarter. >> >> >> >> >> >> The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books >> >> >> are not available any sooner than that. >> >> >> >> >> >> The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions >> >> >> of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling >> >> >> interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages >> >> >> missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that >> >> >> my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >> >> >> textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours >> >> >> produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >> >> >> predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. >> >> >> >> >> >> The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per >> >> >> book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed >> >> >> books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational >> >> >> institutions I am aware of in my state. >> >> >> >> >> >> One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but >> >> >> the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students >> >> >> because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a >> >> >> month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or >> >> >> won't provide the textbook in question. >> >> >> >> >> >> And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible >> >> >> for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not >> >> >> often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume >> >> >> required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers >> >> >> will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only >> >> >> when a student who needs it has registered for the class and >> >> >> purchased a book and not always even then. >> >> >> >> >> >> This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >> >> >> electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that >> >> >> the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin >> >> >> doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, >> >> >> correct, digital source. >> >> >> >> >> >> With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure >> >> >> it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> >> >> Joseph >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> .com" > target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo >> >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From chatter8712 at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 22:43:51 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:43:51 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <71DE6358655A4AC2AA059BAB91F9014B@spike> References: <00221532c8ace2c12a046209613d@google.com> <71DE6358655A4AC2AA059BAB91F9014B@spike> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902031443r77d95199t45f8b466addf8d77@mail.gmail.com> And Bookshare does it on a vollunteer effort. What we need to do is get something like bookshare for textbooks in general. Those with the skills can scan textbooks and the rest of us can use them under the same copyright clauses that make them available to Blind individuals under Bookshare. For your information, this law is 17 U.S.C. § 121, and reads partially as follows: "… it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute copies of a previously published, nondramatic literary work if such copies are reproduced or distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities." More information available at http://bookshare.org/about/legalInformation. On 2/3/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Good points. Bookshare.org has converted thousands of books to daisy format. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Russell J. Thomas; Jr." ; > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:19 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > >> Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the >> California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. Even >> trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By the way >> >> you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. >> >> The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they have to >> reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people do >> not know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find out >> >> what is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a >> serious time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state >> are extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this >> money. >> >> Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. >> >> Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there are >> organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on in >> Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are free. >> >> The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. That's >> >> where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit more >> complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are >> cutting up books. >> >> By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or InDesign. >> >> James Pepper >> >> On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." >> wrote: >>> You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that the >> site >>> >>> >>> may not have been updated for a while. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> >>> >>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>> >>> >>> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM >>> >>> >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> >>> Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon >>> >>> >>> and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible >>> >>> >>> textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who >>> >>> >>> I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good >>> >>> >>> example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a >>> >>> >>> national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the >>> >>> >>> closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my >>> >>> >>> intervention. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is >>> >>> >>> there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >>> >>> >>> California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that >>> >>> >>> cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be >>> >>> >>> a good starting place. *grin* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are >>> >>> >>> aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process >>> >>> >>> used here in Oregon anyway: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). >>> >>> >>> Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks >>> >>> >>> to the DSO. >>> >>> >>> 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >>> >>> >>> 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the >>> >>> >>> book. >>> >>> >>> 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >>> >>> >>> 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. >>> >>> >>> 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software >>> >>> >>> such as ABBYY FineReader. >>> >>> >>> 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >>> >>> >>> 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in >>> >>> >>> theory. >>> >>> >>> 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >>> >>> >>> "natural" voice into mp3 files. >>> >>> >>> 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled >>> >>> >>> textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week >>> >>> >>> quarter. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books >>> >>> >>> are not available any sooner than that. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions >>> >>> >>> of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling >>> >>> >>> interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages >>> >>> >>> missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that >>> >>> >>> my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >>> >>> >>> textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours >>> >>> >>> produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >>> >>> >>> predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per >>> >>> >>> book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed >>> >>> >>> books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational >>> >>> >>> institutions I am aware of in my state. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but >>> >>> >>> the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students >>> >>> >>> because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a >>> >>> >>> month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or >>> >>> >>> won't provide the textbook in question. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible >>> >>> >>> for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not >>> >>> >>> often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume >>> >>> >>> required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers >>> >>> >>> will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only >>> >>> >>> when a student who needs it has registered for the class and >>> >>> >>> purchased a book and not always even then. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >>> >>> >>> electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that >>> >>> >>> the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin >>> >>> >>> doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, >>> >>> >>> correct, digital source. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure >>> >>> >>> it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> >>> >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >>> >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> >>> .com" >> target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo >>> >>> >>> .com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> >>> >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From timandvickie at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 22:46:07 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 22:46:07 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT In-Reply-To: <20090203.171349.5028.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090203.171349.5028.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Hey everyone I am taking the LSAT Saturday, wish me luck. Any last minute advice? The only thing that is still tripping me up some is relationship questions where they provide a list of traits about members of a group then ask you to determine say something like which two people work together. Some of them it just seems like the info provided just isnt enough to arrive at the conclusion they want you to. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail® goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208 From stiehm.law at juno.com Tue Feb 3 22:51:22 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:51:22 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation Message-ID: <20090203.175123.5028.4.stiehm.law@juno.com> When you describe the books as being available in Daisy format, as being required by law, which law do you mean? Is it a California state law or a federal law? Even if it's only a California state law I would expect the impact to be significant and even nationwide. California is so big that anything that it requires usually has a national impact. Could you elaborate please? I was also interested in your comment above a copyright violation simply because the books are cut up. I don't think that is correct. If I buy a book, it is my property and I think I'm free to cut it up if I want. Or in the alternative are you suggesting that scanning from text to voice using Natural Reader is a copyright violation? If that is a violation aren't we further violating the copyright every time Jaws reads copyrighted material on a web page? Although though it is a more sophisticated program than Natural Reader, in its screen reading function it is really doing essentially the same thing? I wonder if there's any authority on the issue one way or the other. If anybody on the list is sufficiently familiar with copyright law that they are comfortable expressing an opinion I would love to hear. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 20:19:03 +0000 b75205 at gmail.com writes: > Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the > > California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. > Even > trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By > the way > you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. > > The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they > have to > reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people > do not > know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find > out what > is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a > serious > time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state are > > extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this > money. > > Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. > > Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there > are > organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on > in > Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are > free. > > The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. > That's > where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit > more > complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are > > cutting up books. > > By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or > InDesign. > > James Pepper > > On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." > > wrote: > > You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that > the > site > > > > > > may not have been updated for a while. > > > > > > > > > > > > www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > > > > > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM > > > > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > > > > Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in > Oregon > > > > > > and I suggested to my state president that the problem of > accessible > > > > > > textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows > who > > > > > > I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good > > > > > > example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, > a > > > > > > national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the > > > > > > closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of > my > > > > > > intervention. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. > Is > > > > > > there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told > > > > > > California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that > > > > > > cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might > be > > > > > > a good starting place. *grin* > > > > > > > > > > > > While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) > are > > > > > > aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard > process > > > > > > used here in Oregon anyway: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). > > > > > > Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several > blocks > > > > > > to the DSO. > > > > > > 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. > > > > > > 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up > the > > > > > > book. > > > > > > 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. > > > > > > 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 > dpi. > > > > > > 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software > > > > > > such as ABBYY FineReader. > > > > > > 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. > > > > > > 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, > in > > > > > > theory. > > > > > > 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a > > > > > > "natural" voice into mp3 files. > > > > > > 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled > > > > > > textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week > > > > > > quarter. > > > > > > > > > > > > The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because > books > > > > > > are not available any sooner than that. > > > > > > > > > > > > The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read > versions > > > > > > of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything > resembling > > > > > > interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with > pages > > > > > > missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told > that > > > > > > my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized > > > > > > textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four > hours > > > > > > produces significantly better output in that time frame than her > > > > > > predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone > per > > > > > > book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed > > > > > > books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational > > > > > > institutions I am aware of in my state. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, > but > > > > > > the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by > students > > > > > > because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve > waiting a > > > > > > month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have > or > > > > > > won't provide the textbook in question. > > > > > > > > > > > > And while some might argue that a blind student should be > responsible > > > > > > for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does > not > > > > > > often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume > > > > > > required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. > Publishers > > > > > > will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, > only > > > > > > when a student who needs it has registered for the class and > > > > > > purchased a book and not always even then. > > > > > > > > > > > > This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing > > > > > > electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so > that > > > > > > the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to > begin > > > > > > doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a > clean, > > > > > > correct, digital source. > > > > > > > > > > > > With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make > sure > > > > > > it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > Joseph > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > .com" > target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org /rjtlawfirm%40yahoo > > > > > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Click here to learn more about nursing jobs. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2bVNFN864fchPGK0uBuOioSg37yCiv6jmJ2VacXQfSLz1av/ From chatter8712 at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 23:10:18 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 18:10:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <20090203.175123.5028.4.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090203.175123.5028.4.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902031510h43853996m5319039a0fba1f23@mail.gmail.com> See my post above about bookshare. A brief summary of copyright law and it's transformation for blind people is at their legal page, http://bookshare.org/about/legalInformation, but you can create alternative formats of copyrighted nondramatic works for distribution in blindness specific (I.E: Dazy) formats. On 2/3/09, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > When you describe the books as being available in Daisy format, as being > required by law, which law do you mean? Is it a California state law or a > federal law? Even if it's only a California state law I would expect the > impact to be significant and even nationwide. California is so big that > anything that it requires usually has a national impact. Could you > elaborate please? > > I was also interested in your comment above a copyright violation simply > because the books are cut up. I don't think that is correct. If I buy a > book, it is my property and I think I'm free to cut it up if I want. Or > in the alternative are you suggesting that scanning from text to voice > using Natural Reader is a copyright violation? > If that is a violation aren't we further violating the copyright every > time Jaws reads copyrighted material on a web page? Although though it is > a more sophisticated program than Natural Reader, in its screen reading > function it is really doing essentially the same thing? I wonder if > there's any authority on the issue one way or the other. If anybody on > the list is sufficiently familiar with copyright law that they are > comfortable expressing an opinion I would love to hear. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 20:19:03 +0000 b75205 at gmail.com writes: >> Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the >> >> California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. >> Even >> trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By >> the way >> you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. >> >> The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they >> have to >> reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people >> do not >> know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find >> out what >> is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a >> serious >> time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state are >> >> extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this >> money. >> >> Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. >> >> Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there >> are >> organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on >> in >> Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are >> free. >> >> The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. >> That's >> where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit >> more >> complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are >> >> cutting up books. >> >> By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or >> InDesign. >> >> James Pepper >> >> On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." >> >> wrote: >> > You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that >> the >> site >> > >> > >> > may not have been updated for a while. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > >> > >> > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> > >> > >> > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >> > >> > >> > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM >> > >> > >> > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> > >> > >> > Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in >> Oregon >> > >> > >> > and I suggested to my state president that the problem of >> accessible >> > >> > >> > textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows >> who >> > >> > >> > I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good >> > >> > >> > example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, >> a >> > >> > >> > national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the >> > >> > >> > closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of >> my >> > >> > >> > intervention. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. >> Is >> > >> > >> > there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >> > >> > >> > California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that >> > >> > >> > cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might >> be >> > >> > >> > a good starting place. *grin* >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) >> are >> > >> > >> > aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard >> process >> > >> > >> > used here in Oregon anyway: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). >> > >> > >> > Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several >> blocks >> > >> > >> > to the DSO. >> > >> > >> > 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >> > >> > >> > 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up >> the >> > >> > >> > book. >> > >> > >> > 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >> > >> > >> > 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 >> dpi. >> > >> > >> > 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software >> > >> > >> > such as ABBYY FineReader. >> > >> > >> > 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >> > >> > >> > 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, >> in >> > >> > >> > theory. >> > >> > >> > 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >> > >> > >> > "natural" voice into mp3 files. >> > >> > >> > 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled >> > >> > >> > textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week >> > >> > >> > quarter. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because >> books >> > >> > >> > are not available any sooner than that. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read >> versions >> > >> > >> > of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything >> resembling >> > >> > >> > interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with >> pages >> > >> > >> > missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told >> that >> > >> > >> > my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >> > >> > >> > textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four >> hours >> > >> > >> > produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >> > >> > >> > predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at >> it. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone >> per >> > >> > >> > book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed >> > >> > >> > books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational >> > >> > >> > institutions I am aware of in my state. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, >> but >> > >> > >> > the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by >> students >> > >> > >> > because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve >> waiting a >> > >> > >> > month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have >> or >> > >> > >> > won't provide the textbook in question. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > And while some might argue that a blind student should be >> responsible >> > >> > >> > for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does >> not >> > >> > >> > often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume >> > >> > >> > required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. >> Publishers >> > >> > >> > will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, >> only >> > >> > >> > when a student who needs it has registered for the class and >> > >> > >> > purchased a book and not always even then. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >> > >> > >> > electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so >> that >> > >> > >> > the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to >> begin >> > >> > >> > doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a >> clean, >> > >> > >> > correct, digital source. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make >> sure >> > >> > >> > it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Joseph >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > >> > >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> > >> > >> > blindlaw: >> > >> > >> > >> > .com" >> > target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > /rjtlawfirm%40yahoo >> > >> > >> > .com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > >> > >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> blindlaw: >> > >> > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. > com >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com >> >> > > ____________________________________________________________ > Click here to learn more about nursing jobs. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2bVNFN864fchPGK0uBuOioSg37yCiv6jmJ2VacXQfSLz1av/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Tue Feb 3 23:16:08 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 15:16:08 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT In-Reply-To: References: <20090203.171349.5028.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B170@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> My serious recommendation is to get plenty of sleep the night before. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Hey everyone I am taking the LSAT Saturday, wish me luck. Any last minute advice? The only thing that is still tripping me up some is relationship questions where they provide a list of traits about members of a group then ask you to determine say something like which two people work together. Some of them it just seems like the info provided just isnt enough to arrive at the conclusion they want you to. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail(r) goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?oci d=TXT_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov From everett at zufelt.ca Tue Feb 3 23:42:27 2009 From: everett at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:42:27 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902031443r77d95199t45f8b466addf8d77@mail.gmail.com> References: <00221532c8ace2c12a046209613d@google.com> <71DE6358655A4AC2AA059BAB91F9014B@spike> <7556b95a0902031443r77d95199t45f8b466addf8d77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Good evening, I support the concept of requiring textbook publishers to make accessible copies of their texts available to students with disabilities. There really just is no reason that they can't / shouldn't do this. However, practically speaking, in my first year of law school there was only one textbook that was not available from the publisher in a digital format. So, perhaps this is already being done by some publishers more than people are aware. Normally contacting the publisher directly, or through your educational institutions department for disabled students, these texts can be obtained quite quickly. As for forcing a blind student to scan books themself, as a character building exercise, I really don't understand this at all. As a blind student I want the opportunity to be as lazy as my class mates (smile). But seriously, I have spent many the hour scanning texts and could have spent that time in more productive ways, like studying, socializing with peers, participating in extra curricular activities, etc. Everett On 3-Feb-09, at 6:43 PM, chatter8712 at gmail.com wrote: > And Bookshare does it on a vollunteer effort. What we need to do is > get something like bookshare for textbooks in general. Those with the > skills can scan textbooks and the rest of us can use them under the > same copyright clauses that make them available to Blind individuals > under Bookshare. For your information, this law is 17 U.S.C. § 121, > and reads partially as follows: > > "… it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to > reproduce or to distribute copies of a previously published, > nondramatic literary work if such copies are reproduced or distributed > in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons > with disabilities." > > More information available at http://bookshare.org/about/legalInformation > . > > On 2/3/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> Good points. Bookshare.org has converted thousands of books to >> daisy format. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: "Russell J. Thomas; Jr." ; > > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >> >> >>> Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the >>> California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. >>> Even >>> trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By >>> the way >>> >>> you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. >>> >>> The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they >>> have to >>> reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT >>> people do >>> not know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to >>> find out >>> >>> what is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility >>> is a >>> serious time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by >>> the state >>> are extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this >>> money. >>> >>> Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. >>> >>> Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there >>> are >>> organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is >>> on in >>> Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books >>> are free. >>> >>> The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and >>> answers. That's >>> >>> where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a >>> bit more >>> complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are >>> cutting up books. >>> >>> By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or >>> InDesign. >>> >>> James Pepper >>> >>> On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." >> > >>> wrote: >>>> You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears >>>> that the >>> site >>>> >>>> >>>> may not have been updated for a while. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>>> >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> ] On >>>> >>>> >>>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>> >>>> Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in >>>> Oregon >>>> >>>> >>>> and I suggested to my state president that the problem of >>>> accessible >>>> >>>> >>>> textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who >>>> >>>> >>>> I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good >>>> >>>> >>>> example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a >>>> >>>> >>>> national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the >>>> >>>> >>>> closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my >>>> >>>> >>>> intervention. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. >>>> Is >>>> >>>> >>>> there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >>>> >>>> >>>> California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that >>>> >>>> >>>> cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might >>>> be >>>> >>>> >>>> a good starting place. *grin* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are >>>> >>>> >>>> aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process >>>> >>>> >>>> used here in Oregon anyway: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). >>>> >>>> >>>> Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks >>>> >>>> >>>> to the DSO. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >>>> >>>> >>>> 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up >>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>> book. >>>> >>>> >>>> 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >>>> >>>> >>>> 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 >>>> dpi. >>>> >>>> >>>> 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software >>>> >>>> >>>> such as ABBYY FineReader. >>>> >>>> >>>> 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >>>> >>>> >>>> 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, >>>> in >>>> >>>> >>>> theory. >>>> >>>> >>>> 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >>>> >>>> >>>> "natural" voice into mp3 files. >>>> >>>> >>>> 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled >>>> >>>> >>>> textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week >>>> >>>> >>>> quarter. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books >>>> >>>> >>>> are not available any sooner than that. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read >>>> versions >>>> >>>> >>>> of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything >>>> resembling >>>> >>>> >>>> interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages >>>> >>>> >>>> missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told >>>> that >>>> >>>> >>>> my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >>>> >>>> >>>> textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours >>>> >>>> >>>> produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >>>> >>>> >>>> predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at >>>> it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per >>>> >>>> >>>> book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed >>>> >>>> >>>> books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational >>>> >>>> >>>> institutions I am aware of in my state. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but >>>> >>>> >>>> the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students >>>> >>>> >>>> because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve >>>> waiting a >>>> >>>> >>>> month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or >>>> >>>> >>>> won't provide the textbook in question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And while some might argue that a blind student should be >>>> responsible >>>> >>>> >>>> for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does >>>> not >>>> >>>> >>>> often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume >>>> >>>> >>>> required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers >>>> >>>> >>>> will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only >>>> >>>> >>>> when a student who needs it has registered for the class and >>>> >>>> >>>> purchased a book and not always even then. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >>>> >>>> >>>> electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so >>>> that >>>> >>>> >>>> the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin >>>> >>>> >>>> doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a >>>> clean, >>>> >>>> >>>> correct, digital source. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure >>>> >>>> >>>> it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Joseph >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> .com" >>> target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo >>>> >>>> >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zufelt.ca From b75205 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 03:41:42 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (b75205 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 03:41:42 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000325579e82ec50ca04620f90f4@google.com> California law has it that textbooks have to be accessible to the blind and that the publisher must provide this for free. Since they are doing it for california this means the books exist. Also I beleive there is anational law on this subject, the problem is one of enforcement not access. If you take a book and chop it up and make an accessible book without the publishers consent, you are violating their rights. Its just like when a gbroup of authors tried to claim that paperback editions of books were different than har covers in famous Garrard publsihing case in the 1970s. If you chop up a book there is no guarantee that it will be done properly. They have a right to present the material even if it is going to be given away to the blind. The people who are in charge of the book are the ones who have to make it accessible to the blind, it is their work, it is not yours. Since most publishers want to sell textbooks to california, you just need to find out which ones have done this work and which ones have not. james On Feb 3, 2009 5:42pm, "EJ Zufelt" wrote: > Good evening, > > > > > > I support the concept of requiring textbook publishers to make accessible copies of their texts available to students with disabilities. There really just is no reason that they can't / shouldn't do this. > > > > > > However, practically speaking, in my first year of law school there was only one textbook that was not available from the publisher in a digital format. So, perhaps this is already being done by some publishers more than people are aware. Normally contacting the publisher directly, or through your educational institutions department for disabled students, these texts can be obtained quite quickly. > > > > > > As for forcing a blind student to scan books themself, as a character building exercise, I really don't understand this at all. As a blind student I want the opportunity to be as lazy as my class mates (smile). But seriously, I have spent many the hour scanning texts and could have spent that time in more productive ways, like studying, socializing with peers, participating in extra curricular activities, etc. > > > > > > Everett > > > > > > > > > On 3-Feb-09, at 6:43 PM, chatter8712 at gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > > And Bookshare does it on a vollunteer effort. What we need to do is > > > get something like bookshare for textbooks in general. Those with the > > > skills can scan textbooks and the rest of us can use them under the > > > same copyright clauses that make them available to Blind individuals > > > under Bookshare. For your information, this law is 17 USC § 121, > > > and reads partially as follows: > > > > > > "… it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to > > > reproduce or to distribute copies of a previously published, > > > nondramatic literary work if such copies are reproduced or distributed > > > in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons > > > with disabilities." > > > > > > More information available at http://bookshare.org/about/legalInformation. > > > > > > On 2/3/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > Good points. Bookshare.org has converted thousands of books to daisy format. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: b75205 at gmail.com> > > > To: "Russell J. Thomas; Jr." rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com>; blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:19 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > > > > > > > > > > Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the > > > California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. Even > > > trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By the way > > > > > > you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. > > > > > > The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they have to > > > reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people do > > > not know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find out > > > > > > what is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a > > > serious time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state > > > are extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this > > > money. > > > > > > Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. > > > > > > Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there are > > > organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on in > > > Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are free. > > > > > > The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. That's > > > > > > where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit more > > > complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are > > > cutting up books. > > > > > > By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or InDesign. > > > > > > James Pepper > > > > > > On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that the > > > > > site > > > > > > > > > > > may not have been updated for a while. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > > > > > > > > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM > > > > > > > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > > > > > > > Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon > > > > > > > > > and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible > > > > > > > > > textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who > > > > > > > > > I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good > > > > > > > > > example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a > > > > > > > > > national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the > > > > > > > > > closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my > > > > > > > > > intervention. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is > > > > > > > > > there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told > > > > > > > > > California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that > > > > > > > > > cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be > > > > > > > > > a good starting place. *grin* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are > > > > > > > > > aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process > > > > > > > > > used here in Oregon anyway: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). > > > > > > > > > Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks > > > > > > > > > to the DSO. > > > > > > > > > 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. > > > > > > > > > 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the > > > > > > > > > book. > > > > > > > > > 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. > > > > > > > > > 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. > > > > > > > > > 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software > > > > > > > > > such as ABBYY FineReader. > > > > > > > > > 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. > > > > > > > > > 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in > > > > > > > > > theory. > > > > > > > > > 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a > > > > > > > > > "natural" voice into mp3 files. > > > > > > > > > 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled > > > > > > > > > textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week > > > > > > > > > quarter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books > > > > > > > > > are not available any sooner than that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions > > > > > > > > > of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling > > > > > > > > > interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages > > > > > > > > > missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that > > > > > > > > > my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized > > > > > > > > > textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours > > > > > > > > > produces significantly better output in that time frame than her > > > > > > > > > predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per > > > > > > > > > book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed > > > > > > > > > books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational > > > > > > > > > institutions I am aware of in my state. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but > > > > > > > > > the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students > > > > > > > > > because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a > > > > > > > > > month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or > > > > > > > > > won't provide the textbook in question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible > > > > > > > > > for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not > > > > > > > > > often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume > > > > > > > > > required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers > > > > > > > > > will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only > > > > > > > > > when a student who needs it has registered for the class and > > > > > > > > > purchased a book and not always even then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing > > > > > > > > > electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that > > > > > > > > > the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin > > > > > > > > > doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, > > > > > > > > > correct, digital source. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure > > > > > > > > > it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joseph > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > .com" > > > > > target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo > > > > > > > > > > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info% From b75205 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 03:47:13 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (b75205 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 03:47:13 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, Inc. In-Reply-To: <714482247.2669221233630416725.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com> No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and tell them that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their Target ads that if you are blind we will not shut the door on you or kick you out of the store. That would have done much more than any of this stuff. You need to humiliate the corporate boardroom and make heads roll before you are going to see any real changes out there. James On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" wrote: > Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this settlement Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for the next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With the federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal year, and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended its scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? > > > > > > Craig > > > ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On > > > > Behalf Of Robin Jones > > > > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM > > > > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > > > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, > > > > Inc. > > > > > > > > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great Lakes ADA > > > > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: > > > > > > > > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and Wal-Mart > > > > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act > > > > > > > > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a settlement > > > > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans with > > > > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with disabilities at > > > > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation that > > > > was initiated after the Department received several complaints alleging > > > > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its rules, > > > > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities in > > > > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged that > > > > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or were > > > > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by > > > > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. Service > > > > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to work > > > > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. > > > > > > > > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United > > > > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the public, > > > > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and Neighborhood > > > > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three > > > > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for > > > > customers with disabilities, including: > > > > > > > > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of Title > > > > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals > > > > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as > > > > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, > > > > lifting, and carrying items; > > > > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of > > > > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into > > > > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated > > > > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; > > > > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title III > > > > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with > > > > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; > > > > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since > > > > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under > > > > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; > > > > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website > > > > and in employee areas at its stores; > > > > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will > > > > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a > > > > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate > > > > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the > > > > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. > > > > > > > > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into a > > > > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed > > > > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's refusal > > > > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal access to > > > > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights > > > > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages from the > > > > fund and the amount of damages to be received. > > > > > > > > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an > > > > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights > > > > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to increase > > > > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities who use > > > > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service announcement > > > > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. > > > > > > > > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department of > > > > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 05:28:32 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 21:28:32 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with WalmartStores, Inc. In-Reply-To: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com> References: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com> Message-ID: I like it. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with WalmartStores, Inc. > No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and tell them > that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their Target ads that > if you are blind we will not shut the door on you or kick you out of the > store. That would have done much more than any of this stuff. You need to > humiliate the corporate boardroom and make heads roll before you are going > to see any real changes out there. > > James > > On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" > wrote: >> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this settlement > Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for the > next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With the > federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal year, > and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended its > scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? >> >> >> >> >> >> Craig >> >> >> ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On >> >> >> > Behalf Of Robin Jones >> >> >> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM >> >> >> > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >> >> >> > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, >> >> >> > Inc. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great Lakes > ADA >> >> >> > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and Wal-Mart >> >> >> > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a >> > settlement >> >> >> > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans > with >> >> >> > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with disabilities > at >> >> >> > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation >> > that >> >> >> > was initiated after the Department received several complaints alleging >> >> >> > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its >> > rules, >> >> >> > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities in >> >> >> > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged that >> >> >> > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or were >> >> >> > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by >> >> >> > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. >> > Service >> >> >> > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to >> > work >> >> >> > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United >> >> >> > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the > public, >> >> >> > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and > Neighborhood >> >> >> > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three >> >> >> > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for >> >> >> > customers with disabilities, including: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of Title >> >> >> > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals >> >> >> > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as >> >> >> > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, >> >> >> > lifting, and carrying items; >> >> >> > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of >> >> >> > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into >> >> >> > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated >> >> >> > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; >> >> >> > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title III >> >> >> > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with >> >> >> > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; >> >> >> > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since >> >> >> > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under >> >> >> > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; >> >> >> > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website >> >> >> > and in employee areas at its stores; >> >> >> > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will >> >> >> > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a >> >> >> > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate >> >> >> > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the >> >> >> > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into a >> >> >> > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed >> >> >> > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's > refusal >> >> >> > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal access > to >> >> >> > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights >> >> >> > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages from > the >> >> >> > fund and the amount of damages to be received. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an >> >> >> > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights >> >> >> > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to increase >> >> >> > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities who > use >> >> >> > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service >> > announcement >> >> >> > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department of >> >> >> > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> >> >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From mikefry79 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 06:02:23 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 22:02:23 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with WalmartStores, Inc. In-Reply-To: References: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902032202j23e539c6k2382963c85ace8d7@mail.gmail.com> discriminating against service dogs and other accessibility issues while the disabled person is in the store is particularly egregious to me. On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:28 PM, wrote: > I like it. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:47 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with > WalmartStores, Inc. > > > No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and tell >> them that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their Target ads >> that if you are blind we will not shut the door on you or kick you out of >> the store. That would have done much more than any of this stuff. You need >> to humiliate the corporate boardroom and make heads roll before you are >> going to see any real changes out there. >> >> James >> >> On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" >> wrote: >> >>> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this settlement >>> >> Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for the >> next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With the >> federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal year, >> and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended its >> scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Craig >>> >>> >>> ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> >>> >>> > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On >>> >>> >>> > Behalf Of Robin Jones >>> >>> >>> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM >>> >>> >>> > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>> >>> >>> > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, >>> >>> >>> > Inc. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great Lakes >>> >> ADA >> >>> >>> >>> > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and Wal-Mart >>> >>> >>> > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a > >>> settlement >>> >>> >>> > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans >>> >> with >> >>> >>> >>> > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with disabilities >>> >> at >> >>> >>> >>> > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation > >>> that >>> >>> >>> > was initiated after the Department received several complaints alleging >>> >>> >>> > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its > >>> rules, >>> >>> >>> > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities in >>> >>> >>> > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged that >>> >>> >>> > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or were >>> >>> >>> > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by >>> >>> >>> > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. > >>> Service >>> >>> >>> > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to > >>> work >>> >>> >>> > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United >>> >>> >>> > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the >>> >> public, >> >>> >>> >>> > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and >>> >> Neighborhood >> >>> >>> >>> > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three >>> >>> >>> > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for >>> >>> >>> > customers with disabilities, including: >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of Title >>> >>> >>> > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals >>> >>> >>> > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as >>> >>> >>> > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, >>> >>> >>> > lifting, and carrying items; >>> >>> >>> > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of >>> >>> >>> > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into >>> >>> >>> > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated >>> >>> >>> > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; >>> >>> >>> > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title III >>> >>> >>> > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with >>> >>> >>> > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; >>> >>> >>> > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since >>> >>> >>> > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under >>> >>> >>> > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; >>> >>> >>> > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website >>> >>> >>> > and in employee areas at its stores; >>> >>> >>> > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will >>> >>> >>> > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a >>> >>> >>> > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate >>> >>> >>> > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the >>> >>> >>> > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into a >>> >>> >>> > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed >>> >>> >>> > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's >>> >> refusal >> >>> >>> >>> > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal access >>> >> to >> >>> >>> >>> > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights >>> >>> >>> > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages from >>> >> the >> >>> >>> >>> > fund and the amount of damages to be received. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an >>> >>> >>> > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights >>> >>> >>> > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to increase >>> >>> >>> > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities who >>> >> use >> >>> >>> >>> > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service > >>> announcement >>> >>> >>> > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department of >>> >>> >>> > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> >>> >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> blindlaw: >> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> >>> >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> blindlaw: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 09:46:20 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 01:46:20 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <000325579e82ec50ca04620f90f4@google.com> References: <000325579e82ec50ca04620f90f4@google.com> Message-ID: <20090204094620.GC27734@yumi.bluecherry.net> My layman's understanding (supported by the BookShare website) is that 17 USC § 121 makes the requirement that you obtain permission for each work a moot point--it provides blanket permission, at the expense of the specialized format requirement (a concession demanded by publishers at the time this was being legislated). Universities to require that you purchase the book they chop up and scan, which should remove any question of the legality of a scan for the purpose of creating an accessibly formatted textbook. That DSOs retain a copy of the scanned book after they give it back to you might run into questionable legal ground. That's their problem though. It make sense as a time and cost-cutting measure if they have future students who need that particular textbook edition, but the law does not permit them to make a copy for their own convenience. I doubt that publishers are going to press that issue as long as their profits are not in danger, but they might have standing to do so. It appears I may be a layman longer than I hoped. Most schools' application deadline was last week, and I haven't taken the LSAT yet even. As God wills, I suppose. This much at least, this I can do. Oregon's going to get another run at accessible textbook legislation. Joseph On Wed, Feb 04, 2009 at 03:41:42AM +0000, b75205 at gmail.com wrote: > California law has it that textbooks have to be accessible to the blind > and that the publisher must provide this for free. Since they are doing > it for california this means the books exist. Also I beleive there is > anational law on this subject, the problem is one of enforcement not > access. > > If you take a book and chop it up and make an accessible book without the > publishers consent, you are violating their rights. Its just like when a > gbroup of authors tried to claim that paperback editions of books were > different than har covers in famous Garrard publsihing case in the 1970s. > If you chop up a book there is no guarantee that it will be done > properly. They have a right to present the material even if it is going > to be given away to the blind. The people who are in charge of the book > are the ones who have to make it accessible to the blind, it is their > work, it is not yours. > > Since most publishers want to sell textbooks to california, you just need > to find out which ones have done this work and which ones have not. > > james > > On Feb 3, 2009 5:42pm, "EJ Zufelt" wrote: >> Good evening, >> >> >> >> >> >> I support the concept of requiring textbook publishers to make >> accessible > copies of their texts available to students with disabilities. There > really just is no reason that they can't / shouldn't do this. >> >> >> >> >> >> However, practically speaking, in my first year of law school there was >> > only one textbook that was not available from the publisher in a digital > format. So, perhaps this is already being done by some publishers more > than people are aware. Normally contacting the publisher directly, or > through your educational institutions department for disabled students, > these texts can be obtained quite quickly. >> >> >> >> >> >> As for forcing a blind student to scan books themself, as a character > building exercise, I really don't understand this at all. As a blind > student I want the opportunity to be as lazy as my class mates (smile). > But seriously, I have spent many the hour scanning texts and could have > spent that time in more productive ways, like studying, socializing with > peers, participating in extra curricular activities, etc. >> >> >> >> >> >> Everett >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 3-Feb-09, at 6:43 PM, chatter8712 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> And Bookshare does it on a vollunteer effort. What we need to do is >> >> >> get something like bookshare for textbooks in general. Those with the >> >> >> skills can scan textbooks and the rest of us can use them under the >> >> >> same copyright clauses that make them available to Blind individuals >> >> >> under Bookshare. For your information, this law is 17 USC § 121, >> >> >> and reads partially as follows: >> >> >> >> >> >> "… it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to >> >> >> reproduce or to distribute copies of a previously published, >> >> >> nondramatic literary work if such copies are reproduced or distributed >> >> >> in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons >> >> >> with disabilities." >> >> >> >> >> >> More information available at http://bookshare.org/about/legalInformation. >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2/3/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Good points. Bookshare.org has converted thousands of books to daisy > format. >> >> >> Chuck >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: b75205 at gmail.com> >> >> >> To: "Russell J. Thomas; Jr." rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com>; blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:19 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the >> >> >> California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. Even >> >> >> trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By the way >> >> >> >> >> >> you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. >> >> >> >> >> >> The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they have to >> >> >> reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people do >> >> >> not know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find out >> >> >> >> >> >> what is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a >> >> >> serious time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state >> >> >> are extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this >> >> >> money. >> >> >> >> >> >> Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. >> >> >> >> >> >> Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there are >> >> >> organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on in >> >> >> Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are free. >> >> >> >> >> >> The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. That's >> >> >> >> >> >> where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit more >> >> >> complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are >> >> >> cutting up books. >> >> >> >> >> >> By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or InDesign. >> >> >> >> >> >> James Pepper >> >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that the >> >> >> >> >> site >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> may not have been updated for a while. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> intervention. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> a good starting place. *grin* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> used here in Oregon anyway: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> to the DSO. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> book. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> such as ABBYY FineReader. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> theory. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "natural" voice into mp3 files. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> quarter. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> are not available any sooner than that. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> institutions I am aware of in my state. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> won't provide the textbook in question. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> when a student who needs it has registered for the class and >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> purchased a book and not always even then. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> correct, digital source. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Joseph >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> .com" >> >> >> >> >> > target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info% > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From stiehm.law at juno.com Wed Feb 4 14:28:13 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 09:28:13 -0500 Subject: Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. �� 121 Message-ID: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader question of copyright infringement. For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy book. Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there a copyright violation at that point. I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for it. Is there a violation? Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find this of interest. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) ____________________________________________________________ Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ From rfarber at jw.com Wed Feb 4 14:37:19 2009 From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 08:37:19 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] general input please In-Reply-To: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> References: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> Message-ID: <8EA167BDF4483449B67BBE3BFCB648F1085B1F5D@pdc-mail01.jwllp.com> I am a transactional attorney and would be very interested in training that would be directed to my type of practice. Topics that come to mind are 1. techniques and technology for managing a large transaction, 2. techniques and technology for dealing with multi-hour telephone conferences and negotiations, 3. marketing, In addition to the cost of the seminar, consideration needs to be given to the cost of travel and hotel. Randy Randal S. Farber Jackson Walker L.L.P. 1401 McKinney, Suite 1900 Houston, Texas 77010 713-752-4241 - Phone 713-308-4120 - Fax RFarber at JW.Com -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:02 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] general input please Greetings: Last April, the National Association of Blind Lawyers conducted a training session with a WestLaw representative who knew JAWS and assistive technology for the blind/visually impaired. Many of us found the training extremely valuable because we were working in an accessible computer lab and the instructor could give us JAWS specific ways to access the information. Of course, it was also very helpful that we could hear exactly what she was doing. We are contemplating similar and expanded efforts in the future. These efforts would not only include additional training on technology based aids like Westlaw or Lexis but also how to manage litigation using alternative techniques and assistive technology. We could also offer some training for non-litigators who are involved in more regulatory or transactional work. One way to think of this is a series of training academies for blind/visually impaired attorneys. Of course, CLE would be an important part of any of this. So, before we plunge forward, I wanted to gage a sense of potential demand for such training. Assuming CLE credit would be offered and participants would be trained how to maximize their efficiency using assistive technology and other techniques, would your organization/employer pay for such training? If you are a solo/small firmer, would you pay for it? It would also make sense to offer this training to law students so that they could gain valuable skills prior to even setting foot in the legal profession. I suspect that voc rehab agencies could be convinced to pay for such blindness specific training. I know that the next question is how much? The truth is we don't know exactly. There could be a wide variety of programs offered differing greatly in scope. If, for example, we offered a NITA like trial training course using assistive technology and teaching effective, nonvisual litigation techniques, the training might be a week and would probably cost something similar to courses like NITA's. One or two day seminars emphasizing legal research would, of course, be much different in scope and cost less. Any way, I am seeking general input and thoughts about potential training programs. Not only am I attempting to gage demand, I am also seeking ideas about the type of training folks would find useful. I thank you in advance for your help. Please feel free to send me a message directly or respond generally to the list. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Farber, Randal S .vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 427 bytes Desc: Farber, Randal S .vcf URL: From chatter8712 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 15:04:37 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:04:37 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902040704g322654c1tfb9cde5e0edc4f47@mail.gmail.com> The following is just an oppinion of mine. I'm not a lawyer, nore a law student, just a party interested in the law: I have read the section, and I feel that what you would do - natural reader through a PDF and distributing that - would be against the law, as an MP3 CD is not a blind-specific format. Part of the law is that you must be an authorized entity, as bookshare is. Another part is the requirement for a blind-specific format, something like Dazy. If you were authorized (and how to become authorized isn't clear), and you bought the Tom Clancey novel, scanned it with OCR, and made it available to people with a proven disability, that would be legal. For example, bookshare requires a form from an instructer of the blind, or a doctor, to be "proof of a print disability." On 2/4/09, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how > truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. > Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather > limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > question of copyright infringement. > > For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, > cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. > After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format > (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy > book. > > Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then > give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there > a copyright violation at that point. > > I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to > listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it > up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for > it. Is there a violation? > > Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that > is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find > this of interest. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > ____________________________________________________________ > Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 15:46:02 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 07:46:02 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement withWalmartStores, Inc. In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902032202j23e539c6k2382963c85ace8d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com> <8c58e54a0902032202j23e539c6k2382963c85ace8d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately, the discrimination that was going on by Wal-Mart goes hand in hand with all the other bad business practices that it has engaged in including the way it treats its employees, encouraging them to go on public benefits, etc and forcing its competition out of the markets especially in small towns. I need to clarify that I like James's strtategy not the Wal-Mart discrimination practices. For political reasons I have never shopped at Wal-Mart and don't intend to start now. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Fry" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:02 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement withWalmartStores, Inc. > discriminating against service dogs and other accessibility issues while > the > disabled person is in the store is particularly egregious to me. > > On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:28 PM, wrote: > >> I like it. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:47 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with >> WalmartStores, Inc. >> >> >> No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and tell >>> them that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their Target >>> ads >>> that if you are blind we will not shut the door on you or kick you out >>> of >>> the store. That would have done much more than any of this stuff. You >>> need >>> to humiliate the corporate boardroom and make heads roll before you are >>> going to see any real changes out there. >>> >>> James >>> >>> On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this >>>> settlement >>>> >>> Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for the >>> next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With >>> the >>> federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal >>> year, >>> and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended >>> its >>> scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Craig >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> >>>> >>>> > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On >>>> >>>> >>>> > Behalf Of Robin Jones >>>> >>>> >>>> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM >>>> >>>> >>>> > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>>> >>>> >>>> > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, >>>> >>>> >>>> > Inc. >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great >>>> > Lakes >>>> >>> ADA >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and >>>> > Wal-Mart >>>> >>>> >>>> > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a > >>>> settlement >>>> >>>> >>>> > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans >>>> >>> with >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with >>>> > disabilities >>>> >>> at >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation > >>>> that >>>> >>>> >>>> > was initiated after the Department received several complaints >>>> > alleging >>>> >>>> >>>> > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its > >>>> rules, >>>> >>>> >>>> > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities >>>> > in >>>> >>>> >>>> > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged >>>> > that >>>> >>>> >>>> > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or >>>> > were >>>> >>>> >>>> > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by >>>> >>>> >>>> > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. > >>>> Service >>>> >>>> >>>> > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to > >>>> work >>>> >>>> >>>> > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United >>>> >>>> >>>> > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the >>>> >>> public, >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and >>>> >>> Neighborhood >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three >>>> >>>> >>>> > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for >>>> >>>> >>>> > customers with disabilities, including: >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of >>>> > Title >>>> >>>> >>>> > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals >>>> >>>> >>>> > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as >>>> >>>> >>>> > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, >>>> >>>> >>>> > lifting, and carrying items; >>>> >>>> >>>> > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of >>>> >>>> >>>> > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into >>>> >>>> >>>> > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated >>>> >>>> >>>> > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; >>>> >>>> >>>> > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title >>>> > III >>>> >>>> >>>> > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with >>>> >>>> >>>> > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; >>>> >>>> >>>> > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since >>>> >>>> >>>> > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under >>>> >>>> >>>> > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; >>>> >>>> >>>> > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website >>>> >>>> >>>> > and in employee areas at its stores; >>>> >>>> >>>> > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will >>>> >>>> >>>> > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a >>>> >>>> >>>> > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate >>>> >>>> >>>> > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the >>>> >>>> >>>> > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into >>>> > a >>>> >>>> >>>> > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed >>>> >>>> >>>> > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's >>>> >>> refusal >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal >>>> > access >>>> >>> to >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights >>>> >>>> >>>> > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages >>>> > from >>>> >>> the >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > fund and the amount of damages to be received. >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an >>>> >>>> >>>> > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights >>>> >>>> >>>> > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to >>>> > increase >>>> >>>> >>>> > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities >>>> > who >>>> >>> use >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service > >>>> announcement >>>> >>>> >>>> > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department >>>> > of >>>> >>>> >>>> > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>> >>>> >>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> >>> blindlaw: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> >>> blindlaw: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From chatter8712 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 15:55:31 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:55:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement withWalmartStores, Inc. In-Reply-To: References: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com> <8c58e54a0902032202j23e539c6k2382963c85ace8d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902040755o524dbb30m889355373e16edbc@mail.gmail.com> I am personally not a fan of the fact that the settlement does not force Wal-mart to admit it was wrong. They do not claim guilt in the matter in the settlement. Also, the sum paid out seems a bit low, and Wal-mart gets it back if the checks aren't written in 120 days. I also don't like the way that the PSA's that Walmart is required to spend money on cannot mension Walmart, it's previous practices, or the settlement. On 2/4/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Unfortunately, the discrimination that was going on by Wal-Mart goes hand in > hand with all the other bad business practices that it has engaged in > including the way it treats its employees, encouraging them to go on public > benefits, etc and forcing its competition out of the markets especially in > small towns. I need to clarify that I like James's strtategy not the > Wal-Mart discrimination practices. For political reasons I have never > shopped at Wal-Mart and don't intend to start now. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Fry" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:02 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement > withWalmartStores, Inc. > > >> discriminating against service dogs and other accessibility issues while >> the >> disabled person is in the store is particularly egregious to me. >> >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:28 PM, wrote: >> >>> I like it. >>> Chuck >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:47 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with >>> WalmartStores, Inc. >>> >>> >>> No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and tell >>>> them that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their Target >>>> ads >>>> that if you are blind we will not shut the door on you or kick you out >>>> of >>>> the store. That would have done much more than any of this stuff. You >>>> need >>>> to humiliate the corporate boardroom and make heads roll before you are >>>> going to see any real changes out there. >>>> >>>> James >>>> >>>> On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this >>>>> settlement >>>>> >>>> Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for the >>>> next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With >>>> the >>>> federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal >>>> year, >>>> and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended >>>> its >>>> scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Craig >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Behalf Of Robin Jones >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Inc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great >>>>> > Lakes >>>>> >>>> ADA >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and >>>>> > Wal-Mart >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a > >>>>> settlement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans >>>>> >>>> with >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with >>>>> > disabilities >>>>> >>>> at >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation > >>>>> that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > was initiated after the Department received several complaints >>>>> > alleging >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its > >>>>> rules, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities >>>>> > in >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged >>>>> > that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or >>>>> > were >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. > >>>>> Service >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to > >>>>> work >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the >>>>> >>>> public, >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and >>>>> >>>> Neighborhood >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > customers with disabilities, including: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of >>>>> > Title >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > lifting, and carrying items; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title >>>>> > III >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > and in employee areas at its stores; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into >>>>> > a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's >>>>> >>>> refusal >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal >>>>> > access >>>>> >>>> to >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages >>>>> > from >>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > fund and the amount of damages to be received. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to >>>>> > increase >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities >>>>> > who >>>>> >>>> use >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service > >>>>> announcement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department >>>>> > of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From JMcCarthy at nfb.org Wed Feb 4 17:01:33 2009 From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org (McCarthy, Jim) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:01:33 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement AgreementwithWalmartStores, Inc. In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902040755o524dbb30m889355373e16edbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B26D527@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> I think you bring up an interesting philosophical question that regularly occurs in the entire disability community. Many settlements with private industry do not admit of wrong doing. On the other hand, the changes that are promised, if actually done, should positively impact the blind and disability community. It is true though that we are always at the mercy of the law teams for both sides and if they do a poor job of negotiating on our behalf, the settlement will fail to meet our needs. Regarding this particular settlement with the great giant of retail, I must confess to not yet forming an opinion. I am certain too that when I had a guide, I took him in to many of their stores without incident. Obviously, others had different experiences than mine and hence the effort to make the great giant answer. To those who might think I am an apologist for the great giant, I really cannot recall the last time I shopped in a Wall mart or Sam's Club but it probably was just before my mother died because that was her store of choice and she needed help shopping. Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of chatter8712 at gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 10:56 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement AgreementwithWalmartStores, Inc. I am personally not a fan of the fact that the settlement does not force Wal-mart to admit it was wrong. They do not claim guilt in the matter in the settlement. Also, the sum paid out seems a bit low, and Wal-mart gets it back if the checks aren't written in 120 days. I also don't like the way that the PSA's that Walmart is required to spend money on cannot mension Walmart, it's previous practices, or the settlement. On 2/4/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Unfortunately, the discrimination that was going on by Wal-Mart goes > hand in hand with all the other bad business practices that it has > engaged in including the way it treats its employees, encouraging them > to go on public benefits, etc and forcing its competition out of the > markets especially in small towns. I need to clarify that I like > James's strtategy not the Wal-Mart discrimination practices. For > political reasons I have never shopped at Wal-Mart and don't intend to start now. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Fry" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:02 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement > withWalmartStores, Inc. > > >> discriminating against service dogs and other accessibility issues >> while the disabled person is in the store is particularly egregious >> to me. >> >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:28 PM, wrote: >> >>> I like it. >>> Chuck >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:47 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with >>> WalmartStores, Inc. >>> >>> >>> No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and >>> tell >>>> them that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their >>>> Target ads that if you are blind we will not shut the door on you >>>> or kick you out of the store. That would have done much more than >>>> any of this stuff. You need to humiliate the corporate boardroom >>>> and make heads roll before you are going to see any real changes >>>> out there. >>>> >>>> James >>>> >>>> On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this >>>>> settlement >>>>> >>>> Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for >>>> the next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated >>>> fund. With the federal government incurring a trillion dollars in >>>> debt this fiscal year, and the country in a raging recession, >>>> couldn't the DOJ have expended its scarce resources here to at >>>> least slightly more fruitful effect? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Craig >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > From: Region V ADA Information >>>>> > [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Behalf Of Robin Jones >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart >>>>> > Stores, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Inc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great >>>>> > Lakes >>>>> >>>> ADA >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and >>>>> > Wal-Mart >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities >>>>> > Act >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a > >>>>> settlement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the >>>>> > Americans >>>>> >>>> with >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with >>>>> > disabilities >>>>> >>>> at >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an >>>>> > investigation > >>>>> that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > was initiated after the Department received several complaints >>>>> > alleging >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to >>>>> > its > >>>>> rules, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with >>>>> > disabilities in >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints >>>>> > alleged that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores >>>>> > or were >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges >>>>> > by >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. >>>>> > > >>>>> Service >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained >>>>> > to > >>>>> work >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the >>>>> > United >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of >>>>> > the >>>>> >>>> public, >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and >>>>> >>>> Neighborhood >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for >>>>> > three >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access >>>>> > for >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > customers with disabilities, including: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of >>>>> > Title >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to >>>>> > individuals >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in >>>>> > locating, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > lifting, and carrying items; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without >>>>> > repeated >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under >>>>> > Title III >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal >>>>> > policy; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, >>>>> > since >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities >>>>> > under >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its >>>>> > website >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > and in employee areas at its stores; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart >>>>> > will >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA >>>>> > at a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take >>>>> > appropriate >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III >>>>> > of the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 >>>>> > into a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who >>>>> > filed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > administrative complaints with the Department alleging >>>>> > Wal-Mart's >>>>> >>>> refusal >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal >>>>> > access >>>>> >>>> to >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil >>>>> > Rights >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Division will determine which complainants are to receive >>>>> > damages from >>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > fund and the amount of damages to be received. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil >>>>> > Rights >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to >>>>> > increase >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > public awareness of the access rights of persons with >>>>> > disabilities who >>>>> >>>> use >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service > >>>>> announcement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US >>>>> > Department of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Justice ADA Website at: >>>>> > http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> > info for >>>>> >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%4 >>>> 0comcast.net >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40 >>>> gmail.com >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman% >>>> 40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712% > 40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf b.org From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Feb 4 17:09:58 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:09:58 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Insight on Federal Policy: New Federal Law Promotes Success in Postsecondary Education for Students with Disabilities, Exceptional Parent Magazine, February 2009 Message-ID: Thought some on this list might find this information about provisions in the Higher Education Opportunity Act of 2008 regarding accessible textbook provisions of interest. Link: http://www.eparent.com/main_channels_education/index.asp Text: Insight on Federal Policy: New Federal Law Promotes Success in Postsecondary Education for Students with Disabilities The Higher Education Opportunity Act of 2008 (Public Law 110-315) (HEOA) was passed by the U.S. Congress and signed into law in August 2008. Five years overdue and several years in the making, the newly reauthorized Act will now direct the advancement of postsecondary education for at least the next five years. The Act authorizes a number of new grant programs, imposes a number of new reporting requirements on institutions, attempts to increase the integrity of student loan programs, simplifies the federal student aid application process, and adds provisions meant to control textbook costs, among just a few of its provisions. The Act also has a number of important provisions intended to improve both access and success for students with disabilities in postsecondary education. This article provides an overview of several new provisions specific to students with disabilities. National Center for Information and Technical Support for Postsecondary Students with Disabilities This new National Center will provide technical assistance and information on best and promising practices to students with disabilities, the families of students with disabilities, as well as entities awarded grants, contracts, or cooperative agreements to improve the postsecondary recruitment, transition, retention, and completion rates of students with disabilities. Student and family assistance will include information for prospective postsecondary students to use in transition planning while in secondary school; information and technical assistance provided to individualized education program (IEP) teams; research-based supports, services, and accommodations, which are available in postsecondary settings; information on student mentoring and networking opportunities for students with disabilities; and effective recruitment and transition programs at postsecondary educational institutions. The Center will also maintain a national Web-based database of disability support services information with respect to institutions of higher education, including available information on disability documentation requirements; support services available; links to financial aid; accommodations policies; accessible instructional materials; and other topics relevant to students with disabilities. Comprehensive Transition and Postsecondary Programs for Students with Intellectual Disabilities The Act establishes a new grant program to promote the successful transition of students with intellectual disabilities into higher education. Grant funds will be made available to institutions of higher education to support the development of programs that provide individual supports and services for the academic and social inclusion of students with intellectual disabilities in academic courses, extracurricular activities, and other aspects of the institution of higher education's regular postsecondary program. The Act defines "student with an intellectual disability" as a student with mental retardation or a cognitive impairment, characterized by significant limitations in intellectual and cognitive functioning; and adaptive behavior as expressed in conceptual, social, and practical adaptive skills; and who is currently, or was formerly, eligible for a free appropriate public education under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA). Programs funded by this grant program must be designed to support students with intellectual disabilities, who are seeking to continue academic, career, and technical, and independent living instruction at an institution of higher education in order to prepare for gainful employment. Advisory Commission on Accessible Instructional Materials in Postsecondary Education for Students with Disabilities. The Act authorizes a new Commission on Accessible Instructional Materials tasked with conducting a comprehensive study to assess the barriers and systemic issues that interfere with the timely provision of accessible instructional materials and to make recommendations related to the development of a comprehensive approach that can ensure access to these materials in a timeframe comparable to when students without disabilities have standard print textbooks available. The Commission is also to examine the feasibility of a standardized electronic file format, similar to the National Instructional Materials Accessibility Standard (NIMAS) mandated by IDEA 2004. (See Exceptional Parent, February 2008, "What You Need to Know About NIMAS"). Model Demonstration Programs to Support Improved Access to Postsecondary Instructional Materials for Students with Print Disabilities In addition to the Commission on Accessible Instructional Materials, the Act also authorizes model demonstration programs designed to encourage the development of systems to improve the availability of accessible format instructional materials for students with print disabilities in a timely manner. The Act defines a "student with a print disability" as a student with a disability, who experiences barriers to accessing instructional material in non-specialized formats. These model programs are tasked with conducting activities such as supporting the development and implementation of processes and systems in helping to identify and verify the eligibility of students with print disabilities who need materials in specialized formats; in simplifying ways the student request process takes place; in improving coordination between institutions and publishers; in establishing copyright protection of electronic textbook files; and in building awareness, outreach, and training activities for faculty, staff, and students related to the acquisition and dissemination of instructional materials in specialized formats. Demonstration Projects to Support Postsecondary Faculty, Staff, and Administrators in Educating Students with Disabilities The Act continues and expands upon a grant program to institutions of higher education designed to develop innovative, effective, and efficient teaching methods and strategies, consistent with the principles of universal design for learning, to provide postsecondary faculty, staff, and administrators with the skills and supports necessary to teach and meet the academic and programmatic needs of students with disabilities, in order to improve the retention of such students in, and the completion by such students of, postsecondary education. Demonstration projects can also work to ensure the successful and smooth transition of students with disabilities from secondary school to postsecondary education and the provision of accessible distance education programs or classes that would enhance the access of students with disabilities to postsecondary education, including the use of accessible curricula and electronic communication for instruction and advising. GAO Study on Postsecondary Education and Students with Disabilities In addition to these exciting new provisions in the HEOA, the U.S. Congress has directed the Government Accountability Office (GAO) to conduct a study to: * Examine the extent and manner in which students with disabilities are applying to, being accepted to, enrolling in, and graduating from different types of institutions of higher education. * Determine the factors that influence the physical, academic, social, and economic access for students with intellectual, emotional, and physical disabilities in higher education. * Collect and identify the rates of requests for, and access to, accommodations on college and graduate admissions tests. * Examine the effectiveness and capacity of disability support service offices in institutions of higher education. * Determine the extent to which institutions of higher education partner and coordinate services with other programs to assist students with disabilities. * Examine the program characteristics of institutions of higher education that have been effective in recruiting and graduating students with all types of disabilities. The findings of this study will help inform the U.S. Department of Education and the Congress as it continues to design and implement legislation and policies to improve postsecondary education success for students with disabilities. Candace Cortiella is Director of The Advocacy Institute (www.AdvocacyInstitute.org), a nonprofit organization dedicated to the development of products, projects, and services that work to improve the lives of people with disabilities. The mother of a young adult with learning disabilities and a disability rights advocate for over 17 years, she lives in the Washington, DC area. From rjaquiss at earthlink.net Wed Feb 4 18:45:57 2009 From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:45:57 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible__legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <79EA6D8C9B144DDF94A21674CEA425BD@D3DTZP41> Hello: It is my understanding that a blind or print disabled person can buy a book and scan the contents of the book to make it accessible. That person cannot give away or sell the accessible version in any form. Agencies that serve the blind and print disabled such as Book Share can do the same thing and allow certified blind or print disabled persons to download accessible material. If you become a "volunteer" for BookShare, you can scan any book and upload it to BookShare. As a volunteer, you are helping BookShare and are protected against action(s) by a publisher. For more information, go to the BookShare site. Regards, Robert Jaquiss, BookShare volunteer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:28 AM Subject: Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader question of copyright infringement. For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy book. Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there a copyright violation at that point. I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for it. Is there a violation? Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find this of interest. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) ____________________________________________________________ Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 19:08:59 2009 From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:08:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia lawyers Message-ID: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Good afternoon.   This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually appears on the list; anyway, here it is.   In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I purchase braille paper?   Thanks.   Mike From pebreeze at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 19:50:55 2009 From: pebreeze at gmail.com (Philip Breeze) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:50:55 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <88afe4410902041150k2bd42a44m2232f0b1bbdf65ff@mail.gmail.com> This sounds like a job for Itunes or Google Books. If every book could be may accessible online in auditory format for a small fee it would amount to one large helpful project. Does anybody have any connections? On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how > truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. > Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather > limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > question of copyright infringement. > > For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, > cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. > After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format > (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy > book. > > Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then > give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there > a copyright violation at that point. > > I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to > listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it > up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for > it. Is there a violation? > > Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that > is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find > this of interest. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > ____________________________________________________________ > Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 20:12:48 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:48 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902040704g322654c1tfb9cde5e0edc4f47@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <7556b95a0902040704g322654c1tfb9cde5e0edc4f47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This seems like a valid interpretation. Note that all other providers of services for the blind that are not purchased require the same documentation, e.g. NLS and Recordings for the Blind. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:04 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 The following is just an oppinion of mine. I'm not a lawyer, nore a law student, just a party interested in the law: I have read the section, and I feel that what you would do - natural reader through a PDF and distributing that - would be against the law, as an MP3 CD is not a blind-specific format. Part of the law is that you must be an authorized entity, as bookshare is. Another part is the requirement for a blind-specific format, something like Dazy. If you were authorized (and how to become authorized isn't clear), and you bought the Tom Clancey novel, scanned it with OCR, and made it available to people with a proven disability, that would be legal. For example, bookshare requires a form from an instructer of the blind, or a doctor, to be "proof of a print disability." On 2/4/09, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how > truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. > Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather > limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > question of copyright infringement. > > For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, > cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. > After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format > (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy > book. > > Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then > give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there > a copyright violation at that point. > > I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to > listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it > up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for > it. Is there a violation? > > Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that > is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find > this of interest. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > ____________________________________________________________ > Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Wed Feb 4 20:30:23 2009 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:30:23 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] general input please References: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> Message-ID: <8DE0B8DFB34B4807A84FB52CF5B34AE2@valtd> Scott, the trainer "supposedly" knew Jaws and used it during the cause of the training. Will any other screen reader be accommodated? Mega thanks!! Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From mikefry79 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 21:40:11 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:40:11 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia lawyers In-Reply-To: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902041340y2b85803aqcd4c3ac0819656a@mail.gmail.com> If you contact the Columbia Lighthouse for the Blind, located at 1825 K Street, NW Suite 1103, Washington, DC 20006, I bet they'll be able to tell you where you can buy braille paper in the area. Their phone number is 202-454-6400 On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Mike Gilmore wrote: > Good afternoon. > > This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually > appears on the list; anyway, here it is. > > In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I > purchase braille paper? > > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 21:43:20 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:43:20 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement AgreementwithWalmartStores, Inc. In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902040755o524dbb30m889355373e16edbc@mail.gmail.com> References: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com><8c58e54a0902032202j23e539c6k2382963c85ace8d7@mail.gmail.com> <7556b95a0902040755o524dbb30m889355373e16edbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately, this is a problem with out of court settlements. The guilty party agrees to conditions but does not have to admit guilt. If I recall correctly while Target agreed to the settlement in NFB of California V Target there was no admission of wrongdoing either. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement AgreementwithWalmartStores, Inc. >I am personally not a fan of the fact that the settlement does not > force Wal-mart to admit it was wrong. They do not claim guilt in the > matter in the settlement. Also, the sum paid out seems a bit low, and > Wal-mart gets it back if the checks aren't written in 120 days. I also > don't like the way that the PSA's that Walmart is required to spend > money on cannot mension Walmart, it's previous practices, or the > settlement. > > On 2/4/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> Unfortunately, the discrimination that was going on by Wal-Mart goes hand >> in >> hand with all the other bad business practices that it has engaged in >> including the way it treats its employees, encouraging them to go on >> public >> benefits, etc and forcing its competition out of the markets especially >> in >> small towns. I need to clarify that I like James's strtategy not the >> Wal-Mart discrimination practices. For political reasons I have never >> shopped at Wal-Mart and don't intend to start now. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael Fry" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:02 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement >> withWalmartStores, Inc. >> >> >>> discriminating against service dogs and other accessibility issues while >>> the >>> disabled person is in the store is particularly egregious to me. >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:28 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> I like it. >>>> Chuck >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:47 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with >>>> WalmartStores, Inc. >>>> >>>> >>>> No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and tell >>>>> them that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their Target >>>>> ads >>>>> that if you are blind we will not shut the door on you or kick you out >>>>> of >>>>> the store. That would have done much more than any of this stuff. You >>>>> need >>>>> to humiliate the corporate boardroom and make heads roll before you >>>>> are >>>>> going to see any real changes out there. >>>>> >>>>> James >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this >>>>>> settlement >>>>>> >>>>> Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for >>>>> the >>>>> next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With >>>>> the >>>>> federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal >>>>> year, >>>>> and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended >>>>> its >>>>> scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Craig >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > From: Region V ADA Information >>>>>> > [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Behalf Of Robin Jones >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart >>>>>> > Stores, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Inc. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great >>>>>> > Lakes >>>>>> >>>>> ADA >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and >>>>>> > Wal-Mart >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a > >>>>>> settlement >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the >>>>>> > Americans >>>>>> >>>>> with >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with >>>>>> > disabilities >>>>>> >>>>> at >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation >>>>>> > > >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > was initiated after the Department received several complaints >>>>>> > alleging >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its > >>>>>> rules, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities >>>>>> > in >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged >>>>>> > that >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or >>>>>> > were >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. > >>>>>> Service >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to >>>>>> > > >>>>>> work >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the >>>>>> > United >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the >>>>>> >>>>> public, >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and >>>>>> >>>>> Neighborhood >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for >>>>>> > three >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access >>>>>> > for >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > customers with disabilities, including: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of >>>>>> > Title >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to >>>>>> > individuals >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in >>>>>> > locating, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > lifting, and carrying items; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title >>>>>> > III >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal >>>>>> > policy; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, >>>>>> > since >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its >>>>>> > website >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > and in employee areas at its stores; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take >>>>>> > appropriate >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of >>>>>> > the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 >>>>>> > into >>>>>> > a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's >>>>>> >>>>> refusal >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal >>>>>> > access >>>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages >>>>>> > from >>>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > fund and the amount of damages to be received. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil >>>>>> > Rights >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to >>>>>> > increase >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities >>>>>> > who >>>>>> >>>>> use >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service > >>>>>> announcement >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department >>>>>> > of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> > for >>>>>> >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 21:56:19 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:56:19 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginialawyers In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902041340y2b85803aqcd4c3ac0819656a@mail.gmail.com> References: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8c58e54a0902041340y2b85803aqcd4c3ac0819656a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9EC0F806A5A643619CC49FE7417E7877@spike> Actually any printing supply or paper company has it In the printing industry it is referred to as a certain type of paper with a certain weight. I don't remember the type but I the weight is 80. Getting it this way in the long run is much cheaper if you need large quantities at a time. I would take a sample in to a printing supply or stationery company and they can identify the type and weight. This was suggested to me to cut costs for operating a Braille printer. Chuck Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Fry" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginialawyers > If you contact the Columbia Lighthouse for the Blind, located at 1825 K > Street, NW > Suite 1103, Washington, DC 20006, I bet they'll be able to tell you where > you can buy braille paper in the area. Their phone number is 202-454-6400 > > On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Mike Gilmore > wrote: > >> Good afternoon. >> >> This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually >> appears on the list; anyway, here it is. >> >> In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I >> purchase braille paper? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From dandrews at visi.com Thu Feb 5 01:15:10 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 In-Reply-To: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio reading services, and information access services for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your first action, making MP3's would be find under fair use, but giving to others or posting on internet would not be. If you gave him the book, you might be able to give him the MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, even if not charging would be ok. You are not a nonprofit serving the blind etc. Dave At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader >question of copyright infringement. > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy >book. > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there >a copyright violation at that point. > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for >it. Is there a violation? > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find >this of interest. > >Patrick H. Stiehm >Stiehm Law Office >Alexandria, VA 22309 >703-360-1089 (Voice) >703-935-8266 (Fax) >____________________________________________________________ >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 02:06:37 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 18:06:37 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] =?utf-8?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U=2ES?= =?utf-8?b?LkMuIMKnIDEyMQ==?= In-Reply-To: References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <7556b95a0902040704g322654c1tfb9cde5e0edc4f47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090205020637.GA40987@yumi.bluecherry.net> University DSOs require both purchase of materials AND proof of disability. Joseph On Wed, Feb 04, 2009 at 12:12:48PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > This seems like a valid interpretation. Note that all other providers of > services for the blind that are not purchased require the same > documentation, e.g. NLS and Recordings for the Blind. > Chuck From k7uij at panix.com Thu Feb 5 03:36:31 2009 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 19:36:31 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible__legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Yes there is a vilation since you are not a nonprofit or governmental organization. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:28 AM Subject: Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader question of copyright infringement. For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy book. Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there a copyright violation at that point. I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for it. Is there a violation? Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find this of interest. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) ____________________________________________________________ Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From stiehm.law at juno.com Thu Feb 5 13:12:49 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 08:12:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 Message-ID: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a bit of research and as a result here is what I have concluded. Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I purchased the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a voice format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. Since it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired legally, I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I understand that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other countries, i.e. Australia.) Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the copy right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this thread. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews writes: > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > reading services, and information access services > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > first action, making MP3's would be find under > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > internet would not be. If you gave him > the book, you might be able to give him the > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > Dave > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of > how > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection > is. > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > rather > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > >question of copyright infringement. > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > paperback, > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > document. > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > format > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > Clancy > >book. > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I > then > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is > there > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for > people to > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply > put it > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging > for > >it. Is there a violation? > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area > that > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all > find > >this of interest. > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > >Stiehm Law Office > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > >____________________________________________________________ > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > needs now. > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >blindlaw mailing list > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > >your account info for blindlaw: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis i.com > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBrZ5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 5 17:48:58 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 09:48:58 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Disability Rights Attorney or SS Disability Attorney Message-ID: <02144343DF194C66A66F654D08AC4DCC@JamesWeisberg> Hello Members: I am seeking to consult briefly off list with either, ideally both, of any members referenced in the subject line concerning specific aspects of their practice. Thank you. James From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 6 03:11:11 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 19:11:11 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Disability Rights Attorney or SS Disability Attorney Message-ID: Hello Members: I am seeking to consult briefly off list with either, ideally both, of any members referenced in the subject line concerning specific aspects of their practice. Thank you. James From RWayne1 at nyc.rr.com Fri Feb 6 03:43:30 2009 From: RWayne1 at nyc.rr.com (Ray Wayne) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:43:30 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia lawyers References: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003701c9880d$13da5d40$0794cb45@nyc.rr.com> This is totally off topic, but someone recently asked me where the expression "out of left field" originated. Why not "out of right field," or something else. If anyone knows, please e-mail me off list. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Gilmore" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 2:08 PM Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia lawyers Good afternoon. This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually appears on the list; anyway, here it is. In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I purchase braille paper? Thanks. Mike _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c om From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 04:08:41 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:08:41 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Look its real simple, the publishers are allowing bookshare to do this, but in the end they own the content. They will never relinquish that right and they should not. Also this content is provided by most publishers and they can control the content becasue what happens when you copy it the wrong way, get the wrong intent. What is the liability of an institution when they get something wrong becasue they were not the authors, they were not the publishers. It is not the fault of the publisher it is not the fault of the author. This is why you can't go around stealing their work. On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Yes there is a vilation since you are not a nonprofit or governmental > organization. > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:28 AM > Subject: Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how > truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. > Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather > limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > question of copyright infringement. > > For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, > cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. > After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format > (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy > book. > > Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then > give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is > there > a copyright violation at that point. > > I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people > to > listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it > up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for > it. Is there a violation? > > Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that > is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find > this of interest. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > ____________________________________________________________ > Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs > now. > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 05:57:40 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 23:57:40 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Here is the law: (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities. (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) not be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a format other than a specialized format is an infringement; and (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the date of the original publication. (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed to users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. From cjborne at comcast.net Fri Feb 6 06:39:41 2009 From: cjborne at comcast.net (Craig Borne) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 01:39:41 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Disability Rights Attorney or SS Disability Attorney In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003801c98825$b1544ff0$7100a8c0@computer> James, Contact me at cdborne at gmail.com with any specifics. Craig Craig Borne, Esq. Baltimore, Maryland "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom." --Thomas Paine, Common Sense -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:11 PM To: Blindlaw at Nfbnet. Org Subject: [blindlaw] Disability Rights Attorney or SS Disability Attorney Hello Members: I am seeking to consult briefly off list with either, ideally both, of any members referenced in the subject line concerning specific aspects of their practice. Thank you. James _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast. net From roddj12 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 6 07:27:18 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:27:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginialawyers References: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <003701c9880d$13da5d40$0794cb45@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: Well, that sounds like a sporting phrase to me. I don't know conclusively but it makes sense! Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Wayne" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:43 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginialawyers > This is totally off topic, but someone recently asked me where the > expression "out of left field" originated. Why not "out of right field," > or > something else. > If anyone knows, please e-mail me off list. > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Gilmore" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 2:08 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia > lawyers > > > Good afternoon. > > This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually > appears on the list; anyway, here it is. > > In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I > purchase braille paper? > > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 08:04:15 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:04:15 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 In-Reply-To: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a literary work and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical book you would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you just stole his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way you do not aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his copyright. Oh and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to enforcement of Tom Clancy books! James Pepper On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a bit of > research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > > Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I purchased > the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut it up, > run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's > was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a voice > format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. Since > it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired legally, > I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I understand > that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other > countries, i.e. Australia.) > > Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the copy > right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this thread. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews > writes: > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > reading services, and information access services > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > Dave > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of > > how > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection > > is. > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > > rather > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > > paperback, > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > > document. > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > format > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > > Clancy > > >book. > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I > > then > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is > > there > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for > > people to > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply > > put it > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging > > for > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area > > that > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all > > find > > >this of interest. > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > >Stiehm Law Office > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > >____________________________________________________________ > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > > needs now. > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV > eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >blindlaw mailing list > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis > i.com > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBrZ5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 08:06:00 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:06:00 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia lawyers In-Reply-To: <003701c9880d$13da5d40$0794cb45@nyc.rr.com> References: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <003701c9880d$13da5d40$0794cb45@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: Well you put your worse players into right field. James Pepper On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Ray Wayne wrote: > This is totally off topic, but someone recently asked me where the > expression "out of left field" originated. Why not "out of right field," > or > something else. > If anyone knows, please e-mail me off list. > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Gilmore" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 2:08 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia lawyers > > > Good afternoon. > > This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually > appears on the list; anyway, here it is. > > In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I > purchase braille paper? > > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From everett at zufelt.ca Fri Feb 6 11:14:37 2009 From: everett at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 07:14:37 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 In-Reply-To: References: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <62039EFD-2D22-4A93-B362-020106EDAA9E@zufelt.ca> Good morning, What if, as a blind individual, I do not wish to listen to the audio book that the publisher provides, but wish to read the text using the same voice and technology that I use for reading so many other texts that I come across. Should I have to listen to the publisher's audio interpretation of the text, or shouldn't I have the right to access the text in the same way that I access all other texts? To me, there is a big difference in listening to a audio book, recorded with a human voice, than listening to a synthesized voice read the text, sometimes I prefer one, and sometimes the other. As a blind individual shouldn't I have the right to access the text of a printed book, without having to purchase the audio version? Or, perhaps I purchase the book in print, allow a family member to read it, then cut it apart so that I can read it using a computer. Shouldn't I be able to share a text this way, or does my family need to purchase two copies, one print, and one audio? Thanks, Everett On 6-Feb-09, at 4:04 AM, James Pepper wrote: > No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a > literary work > and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical book > you > would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you just > stole > his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way you do > not > aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his > copyright. Oh > and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to > enforcement > of Tom Clancy books! > > James Pepper > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > wrote: > >> I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a >> bit of >> research and as a result here is what I have concluded. >> >> Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I >> purchased >> the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut >> it up, >> run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After >> it's >> was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a voice >> format. I then listened to the book in that recorded >> format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. >> Since >> it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired >> legally, >> I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I >> understand >> that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other >> countries, i.e. Australia.) >> >> Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the copy >> right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this thread. >> >> Patrick H. Stiehm >> Stiehm Law Office >> Alexandria, VA 22309 >> 703-360-1089 (Voice) >> 703-935-8266 (Fax) >> >> On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews >> writes: >>> While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio >>> reading services, and information access services >>> for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your >>> first action, making MP3's would be find under >>> fair use, but giving to others or posting on >>> internet would not be. If you gave him >>> the book, you might be able to give him the >>> MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, >>> even if not charging would be ok. You are not a >>> nonprofit serving the blind etc. >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >>>> A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of >>> how >>>> truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection >>> is. >>>> Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other >>> rather >>>> limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader >>>> question of copyright infringement. >>>> >>>> For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in >>> paperback, >>>> cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF >>> document. >>>> After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a >>>> recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded >>> format >>>> (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom >>> Clancy >>>> book. >>>> >>>> Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I >>> then >>>> give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is >>> there >>>> a copyright violation at that point. >>>> >>>> I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for >>> people to >>>> listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply >>> put it >>>> up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging >>> for >>>> it. Is there a violation? >>>> >>>> Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area >>> that >>>> is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all >>> find >>>> this of interest. >>>> >>>> Patrick H. Stiehm >>>> Stiehm Law Office >>>> Alexandria, VA 22309 >>>> 703-360-1089 (Voice) >>>> 703-935-8266 (Fax) >>>> ____________________________________________________________ >>>> Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household >>> needs now. >>> >>> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV >> eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>>> your account info for blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis >> i.com >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: >>>> 270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >> no.com >>> >>> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. >> >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBrZ5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zufelt.ca From stiehm.law at juno.com Fri Feb 6 14:27:01 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:27:01 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 Message-ID: <20090206.092701.4008.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Mr. Pepper, I respectfully disagree. What I have described vis-a-vis the Tom Clancy book is really just format shifting of an item that I own, i.e., the book. (I agree Tom Clancy or whoever continues to own the copyright.) However, format-shifting - that is, taking content you own in one format and putting it into another format, for personal, use, is considered fair use. I base this on 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Circ. 1999). Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:04:15 -0600 James Pepper writes: > No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a > literary work > and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical book > you > would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you just > stole > his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way you do > not > aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his > copyright. Oh > and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to > enforcement > of Tom Clancy books! > > James Pepper > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > wrote: > > > I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a > bit of > > research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > > > > Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I > purchased > > the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut > it up, > > run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After > it's > > was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a > voice > > format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. > Since > > it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired > legally, > > I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I > understand > > that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other > > countries, i.e. Australia.) > > > > Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the > copy > > right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this > thread. > > > > Patrick H. Stiehm > > Stiehm Law Office > > Alexandria, VA 22309 > > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews > > > writes: > > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > > reading services, and information access services > > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the > realization of > > > how > > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright > protection > > > is. > > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > > > rather > > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a > broader > > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > > > paperback, > > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > > > document. > > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to > a > > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > > format > > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > > > Clancy > > > >book. > > > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with > it I > > > then > > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. > Is > > > there > > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files > for > > > people to > > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I > simply > > > put it > > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my > charging > > > for > > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright > area > > > that > > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should > all > > > find > > > >this of interest. > > > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > > >Stiehm Law Office > > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > > > needs now. > > > > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV > > eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >blindlaw mailing list > > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis > > i.com > > > > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > > > for blindlaw: > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > > no.com > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. > > > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBr Z5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Click now for prescreened plumbing contractors. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4DnEW1a0xT6OGF80cBnxexk1PhMOwvk4Xzb1KIzR6w80hZ1/ From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 6 15:37:09 2009 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 07:37:09 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <005f01c98870$c6708f70$6601a8c0@server> Hello, To say that the publishers are allowing Bookshare to disseminate their works implies that they could disallow book share to do this. Copyright holders do not have that power. A copyright holders permission is not needed by Bookshare. The right to deny a nonprofit to create copies of a copyrighted work in alternative formats for the blind was eliminated by the Chafee amendment. Regards, Dennis Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 Look its real simple, the publishers are allowing bookshare to do this, but in the end they own the content. They will never relinquish that right and they should not. Also this content is provided by most publishers and they can control the content becasue what happens when you copy it the wrong way, get the wrong intent. What is the liability of an institution when they get something wrong becasue they were not the authors, they were not the publishers. It is not the fault of the publisher it is not the fault of the author. This is why you can't go around stealing their work. On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Yes there is a vilation since you are not a nonprofit or governmental > organization. > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:28 AM > Subject: Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how > truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. > Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather > limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > question of copyright infringement. > > For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, > cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. > After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format > (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy > book. > > Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then > give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is > there > a copyright violation at that point. > > I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people > to > listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it > up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for > it. Is there a violation? > > Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that > is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find > this of interest. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > ____________________________________________________________ > Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs > now. > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 6 15:48:08 2009 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 07:48:08 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] =?windows-1252?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_?= =?windows-1252?q?U=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server> Hello, Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the thermoforming of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about copyright infringement? Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 Here is the law: (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities. (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) not be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a format other than a specialized format is an infringement; and (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the date of the original publication. (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed to users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From chatter8712 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 15:49:57 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 10:49:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: <006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server> References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902060749l362a9fa1h3711503c88de03f7@mail.gmail.com> I think that the main point in this, like all copyright cases, is complete relinquishment of the material. If you give the modified materialto another student and relinquish your right to the material (you don't keep any copy, digital or otherwise) it's completely legal. Same as if I sold a CD I had not ripped to someone else. On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hello, > Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another > student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the thermoforming > of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to > prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in > redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about copyright > infringement? > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > Here is the law: > (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section > 106, > it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce > or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, > nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or > distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other > persons with disabilities. > (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) not > be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format > exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; > (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a format > other than a specialized format is an infringement; and > (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the date > of the original publication. > (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, > secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to > computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional > human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed to > users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Feb 6 17:22:12 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 10:22:12 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment Message-ID: <2B21FC0F46C647D5BC9ACCDAE41A2858@labarre> I urge everyone to call their Senators. The Nelson-Collins Amendment would do away with money directly targeted to get disabled people jobs. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: Freeh, Jessica To: Alpidio Rolon ; Amy Buresh ; Anil Lewis ; Art Schreiber ; Beth Rival ; Bob Kresmer ; Carl Jacobsen ; Cathy Jackson ; Charlene Smyth ; Christine G. Hall ; Daniel Burke ; David Ticchi ; Don Galloway ; Donna Wood ; Elsie Lamp ; Franklin Shiner ; Fred Schroeder ; Fred Wurtzel ; Gary Ray ; Gary Wunder ; J.W. Smith ; James Antonacci ; Jennelle Bichler ; Jennifer Dunnam ; Jerree Harris ; Joe Ruffalo ; John Batron ; John Fritz ; Joyce Scanlan ; Kathy Davis ; Ken Rollman ; Kevan Worley ; Marie Johnson ; Mary Willows ; Melissa Riccobono ; Michael Barber ; Michael Freeman ; Michael Seay ; Minnie Walker ; Minnie Walker ; Nani Fife ; Pam Allen ; Parnell Diggs ; Patti Chang ; Richard Bennett ; Richard Gaffney ; Ron Brown ; Ron Gardner ; Sam Gleese ; Scott LaBarre ; Selena Sundling-Crawford ; Steven Priddle ; Terri Rupp ; Tommy Craig Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." # # # About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 6 20:35:07 2009 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 12:35:07 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] =?windows-1252?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_?= =?windows-1252?q?U=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com><006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server> <7556b95a0902060749l362a9fa1h3711503c88de03f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007101c9889a$66795aa0$6601a8c0@server> Hello, What you have presented is your interpretation of what common sense tells you the statute must mean. Unfortunately, with statutes, we are stuck with the exact language of the statute, and court opinions which have interpreted the meaning of the statute. As a lawyer you could make this argument to a court, but the reality is that the statute does not specifically say what you are reading into it. Consequently, you would need to find a federal court opinion which presents your view, and I am not aware of one which does. The Chafee amendment specifies that only nonprofit entities that produce books in alternative formats for the blind may distribute them. It does not say that a blind person who has received a copyrighted work in an alternative format from an authorized entity, may himself distribute his copy to anyone else who is also blind, even when he does not retain any copies. This argument suggests that a slight twist on the first sale doctrine is present in the Chafee amendment, but I am not aware of any source to support this idea. The first sale doctrine is what permits you to resell or give away a patented or copyrighted product which you purchased. Without the first sale doctrine, you would never be able to resell a copyrighted or patented product which you legitimately purchased, because selling a copyrighted or patented product when you do not own the intellectual property rights is the very definition of infringement. My legal advice based on a strict reading of the Chafee amendment to a client who wishes to give a Braille book produced by a nonprofit entity, is that they should return the Braille book to the nonprofit entity which originally produced it, along with instructions to ship the Braille book to the other blind party. The reason for the nonprofit to be the decider of who should receive books in alternative formats, is that they have established procedures in place to determine who is actually blind or reading disabled, and therefore authorized to receive materials in alternative formats. The blind owner of the book we are discussing has no medical documentation to know for a fact that the party he is giving the Braille book to is actually reading disabled. The recipient for example could be sighted, and then scan the Braille book into a computer using software which will convert grade 2 Braille into an electronic file, and then use that file to print out illegal copies of the copyrighted work in print. Seems like a lot of work, but it could be done, and this is what the law is attempting to prevent. Moreover, if the Chafee amendment permits us to redistribute books in alternative formats for use by the blind so long as we do not retain a copy for ourselves, we could redistribute Bookshare and RFB books without violating the copyright act. We would of course be violating our membership agreement with Bookshare and RFB, but that is a question of contract law, not copyright law. Clearly Bookshare and RFB believe this would violate the Chafee amendment and that is why their membership agreement prohibits us from giving copies of books obtained from them to other blind people. Copyright law presents interesting questions. Regards, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:49 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 I think that the main point in this, like all copyright cases, is complete relinquishment of the material. If you give the modified materialto another student and relinquish your right to the material (you don't keep any copy, digital or otherwise) it's completely legal. Same as if I sold a CD I had not ripped to someone else. On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hello, > Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another > student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the thermoforming > of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to > prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in > redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about > copyright > infringement? > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > Here is the law: > (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section > 106, > it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to > reproduce > or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, > nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or > distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other > persons with disabilities. > (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) > not > be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format > exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; > (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a > format > other than a specialized format is an infringement; and > (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the > date > of the original publication. > (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, > secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to > computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional > human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed > to > users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From JFreeh at nfb.org Fri Feb 6 20:35:42 2009 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:35:42 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." # # # About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. From chatter8712 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 20:39:19 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 15:39:19 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: <007101c9889a$66795aa0$6601a8c0@server> References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server> <7556b95a0902060749l362a9fa1h3711503c88de03f7@mail.gmail.com> <007101c9889a$66795aa0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902061239x3859f664me93cad9b4a35ee7f@mail.gmail.com> That would be true, but I was refering to a book that you yourself produced in an alternative format. On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hello, > What you have presented is your interpretation of what common sense tells > you the statute must mean. Unfortunately, with statutes, we are stuck with > the exact language of the statute, and court opinions which have interpreted > the meaning of the statute. As a lawyer you could make this argument to a > court, but the reality is that the statute does not specifically say what > you are reading into it. Consequently, you would need to find a federal > court opinion which presents your view, and I am not aware of one which > does. > > The Chafee amendment specifies that only nonprofit entities that produce > books in alternative formats for the blind may distribute them. It does not > say that a blind person who has received a copyrighted work in an > alternative format from an authorized entity, may himself distribute his > copy to anyone else who is also blind, even when he does not retain any > copies. This argument suggests that a slight twist on the first sale > doctrine is present in the Chafee amendment, but I am not aware of any > source to support this idea. The first sale doctrine is what permits you to > resell or give away a patented or copyrighted product which you purchased. > Without the first sale doctrine, you would never be able to resell a > copyrighted or patented product which you legitimately purchased, because > selling a copyrighted or patented product when you do not own the > intellectual property rights is the very definition of infringement. > > My legal advice based on a strict reading of the Chafee amendment to a > client who wishes to give a Braille book produced by a nonprofit entity, is > that they should return the Braille book to the nonprofit entity which > originally produced it, along with instructions to ship the Braille book to > the other blind party. The reason for the nonprofit to be the decider of > who should receive books in alternative formats, is that they have > established procedures in place to determine who is actually blind or > reading disabled, and therefore authorized to receive materials in > alternative formats. > > The blind owner of the book we are discussing has no medical documentation > to know for a fact that the party he is giving the Braille book to is > actually reading disabled. The recipient for example could be sighted, and > then scan the Braille book into a computer using software which will convert > grade 2 Braille into an electronic file, and then use that file to print out > illegal copies of the copyrighted work in print. Seems like a lot of work, > but it could be done, and this is what the law is attempting to prevent. > > Moreover, if the Chafee amendment permits us to redistribute books in > alternative formats for use by the blind so long as we do not retain a copy > for ourselves, we could redistribute Bookshare and RFB books without > violating the copyright act. We would of course be violating our membership > agreement with Bookshare and RFB, but that is a question of contract law, > not copyright law. Clearly Bookshare and RFB believe this would violate the > Chafee amendment and that is why their membership agreement prohibits us > from giving copies of books obtained from them to other blind people. > > Copyright law presents interesting questions. > > Regards, > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:49 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > I think that the main point in this, like all copyright cases, is > complete relinquishment of the material. If you give the modified > materialto another student and relinquish your right to the material > (you don't keep any copy, digital or otherwise) it's completely legal. > Same as if I sold a CD I had not ripped to someone else. > > On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: >> Hello, >> Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another >> student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the thermoforming >> of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to >> prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in >> redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about >> copyright >> infringement? >> Dennis >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Pepper" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 >> >> >> Here is the law: >> (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section >> 106, >> it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to >> reproduce >> or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, >> nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or >> distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other >> persons with disabilities. >> (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) >> not >> be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format >> exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; >> (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a >> format >> other than a specialized format is an infringement; and >> (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the >> date >> of the original publication. >> (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, >> secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to >> computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional >> human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed >> to >> users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From angie at mpmail.net Fri Feb 6 20:42:39 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:42:39 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Mike and all, I think that the NFB has the best price on tractor-feed paper. I believe it's $30 for a box of 1000 sheets, plus $14 shipping. Should get to you pretty quickly, given your location. Angie From angie at mpmail.net Fri Feb 6 20:47:03 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:47:03 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginialawyers In-Reply-To: <9EC0F806A5A643619CC49FE7417E7877@spike> Message-ID: Hi, I also got some paper from Michael's that works well with a braille writer. I think it was about $4 for 100 sheets of 8.5x11 paper. The paper from NFB that I mentioned in my last post was the wider 11.5X11 paper. Angie On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:56:19 -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >Actually any printing supply or paper company has it In the printing >industry it is referred to as a certain type of paper with a certain weight. >I don't remember the type but I the weight is 80. Getting it this way in the >long run is much cheaper if you need large quantities at a time. I would >take a sample in to a printing supply or stationery company and they can >identify the type and weight. This was suggested to me to cut costs for >operating a Braille printer. >Chuck >Chuck >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael Fry" >To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 1:40 PM >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern >virginialawyers >> If you contact the Columbia Lighthouse for the Blind, located at 1825 K >> Street, NW >> Suite 1103, Washington, DC 20006, I bet they'll be able to tell you where >> you can buy braille paper in the area. Their phone number is 202-454-6400 >> >> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Mike Gilmore >> wrote: >> >>> Good afternoon. >>> >>> This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually >>> appears on the list; anyway, here it is. >>> >>> In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I >>> purchase braille paper? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie%40mpmail.net From angie at mpmail.net Fri Feb 6 20:55:45 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:55:45 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U .S.C. �� 121 In-Reply-To: <005f01c98870$c6708f70$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: It=20seems=20to=20me=20that=20Sec.=20107=20would=20permit=20the=20reproduc= tion=20of=20the=20book=20in=20mp3=20format=20for=20the=20personal=20use=20= of=20the=20owner: =A7107.=20=20=20Limitations=20on=20exclusive=20rights:=20Fair=20use Notwithstanding=20the=20provisions=20of=20sections=20106=20and=20106A,=20t= he=20fair=20use=20of=20a=20copyrighted=20work,=20including=20such=20use=20= by=20reproduction=20in=20copies=20or=20phonorecords=20or=20by=20any=20othe= r=20means=20specified=20by=20that=20section,=20for=20purposes=20such=20as=20= criticism,=20comment,=20 news=20reporting,=20teaching=20(including=20multiple=20copies=20for=20clas= sroom=20use),=20scholarship,=20or=20research,=20is=20not=20an=20infringeme= nt=20of=20copyright.=20In=20determining=20whether=20the=20use=20made=20of=20= a=20work=20in=20any=20particular=20case=20is=20a=20fair=20use=20the=20fact= ors=20to=20be=20considered=20shall=20 include=20=14 (1)=09the=20purpose=20and=20character=20of=20the=20use,=20including=20whet= her=20such=20use=20is=20of=20a=20commercial=20nature=20or=20is=20for=20non= profit=20educational=20purposes; (2)=09the=20nature=20of=20the=20copyrighted=20work; (3)=09the=20amount=20and=20substantiality=20of=20the=20portion=20used=20in= =20relation=20to=20the=20copyrighted=20work=20as=20a=20whole;=20and (4)=09the=20effect=20of=20the=20use=20upon=20the=20potential=20market=20fo= r=20or=20value=20of=20the=20copyrighted=20work. The=20fact=20that=20a=20work=20is=20unpublished=20shall=20not=20itself=20b= ar=20a=20finding=20of=20fair=20use=20if=20such=20finding=20is=20made=20upo= n=20consideration=20of=20all=20the=20above=20factors. True--you're=20not=20contemplating=20using=20the=20book=20for=20an=20educa= tional=20purpose.=20But=20assuming=20you=20aren't=20distributing=20the=20r= esulting=20mp3,=20there's=20absolutely=20no=20effect=20on=20the=20market,=20= and=20I=20believe=20you=20could=20make=20a=20good=20case=20that=20the=20pu= rpose=20and=20character=20 of=20the=20use=20(making=20the=20book=20accessible)=20is=20something=20tha= t=20should=20be=20supported=20by=20public=20policy. Angie From everett at zufelt.ca Fri Feb 6 22:00:13 2009 From: everett at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 18:00:13 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19DB246D-1387-43AC-8770-D5848F54D5E4@zufelt.ca> Good evening, I doubt that by rejecting the amendment that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired American's are unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it is likely isn't the best idea. Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be replaced with something better, but the current system at the current funding level isn't working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press release. Everett On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews ) wrote: > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > CONTACT: > Chris Danielsen > Director of Public Relations > National Federation of the Blind > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment > > Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding > > Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President > of the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest > organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The > purpose of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 > currently being debated in the United States Senate is to reduce > unemployment and to restore economic security for all Americans. In > order to accomplish this goal for Americans who are blind or have > other disabilities, state vocational rehabilitation programs must be > adequately funded. The National Federation of the Blind urges all > members of the United States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins > Amendment and retain the $500 million currently allocated for > vocational rehabilitation. By doing so, the Senate will ensure that > all Americans have the training needed to work and contribute to > this nation's economic prosperity." > > # # # > > > About the National Federation of the Blind > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind > is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind > people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives > through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs > encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading > force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's > blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of > the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center > in the United States for the blind led by the blind. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zufelt.ca From cdanielsen8 at aol.com Fri Feb 6 22:52:32 2009 From: cdanielsen8 at aol.com (Chris Danielsen) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 17:52:32 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment In-Reply-To: <19DB246D-1387-43AC-8770-D5848F54D5E4@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: Hi Everett, The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational rehabilitation agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and most are probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting what services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where the services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason that those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that we shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway is like saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet mignon you will pass on bread and water. I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like the language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really curious about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. Chris -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment Good evening, I doubt that by rejecting the amendment that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired American's are unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it is likely isn't the best idea. Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be replaced with something better, but the current system at the current funding level isn't working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press release. Everett On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews ) wrote: > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > CONTACT: > Chris Danielsen > Director of Public Relations > National Federation of the Blind > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment > > Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding > > Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of > the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest > organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose > of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being > debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to > restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish > this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, > state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. > The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United > States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the > $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By > doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training > needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." > > # # # > > > About the National Federation of the Blind > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is > the largest and most influential membership organization of blind > people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives > through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs > encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force > in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In > January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind > Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the > United States for the blind led by the blind. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu > felt.ca _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3834 (20090206) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3834 (20090206) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From everett at zufelt.ca Fri Feb 6 23:30:40 2009 From: everett at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:30:40 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good evening Chris, > "By doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the > training > needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." Statements like the above are what I dislike. It is simply incorrect, by doing so the senate will be keeping things the way they are, the certainly will not be ensuring that "all" of anyone will be able to do anything. Thanks, Everett On 6-Feb-09, at 6:52 PM, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> By >> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training >> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity. From Ronza.Othman at dhs.gov Sat Feb 7 00:01:25 2009 From: Ronza.Othman at dhs.gov (Othman, Ronza) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:01:25 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Vacancy Announcement - Director for Review and Compliance Message-ID: <74096FB4D17ADA49A21F9BED9B9A33D8DCFA66@ZAU1UG-0308.DHSNET.DS1.DHS> Ronza M. Othman, Esq. Policy Advisor Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties U.S. Department of Homeland Security 202-357-8517 ronza.othman at dhs.gov www.dhs.gov/civilliberties ________________________________ From: Amendolia, Deana Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:26 PM To: Allen, Elizabeth; Arora, Junish; Aziz, Sahar; Bennett, Maurice; Blackford, Candice; Bonanno, Natalie; Brown, Lawanda; Burke, George; Cantrell, Tanya; Cates, Veronica; Clark, Tracy R; Coats, Alinda ; Courtwright-Rodriguez, Susan; Crawley, Ayn; Davis, Tenedia; Dentzer, Ann Marie; Eng, Katherine; Fenlason, Janice ; Floyd, Nicshan; Fresh, Linda ; Friedman, Bruce; Fulmer, Debbie; Gersten, David; Gianlorenzo, Nancy; Glah, Janeen ; Gordon, Claudia; Gustafson, John; Hill, Tonya ; Hoffman, Allen; Hosaka, Keli ; Johnson, Beverly; Jones, Glenita ; Keefer, Timothy; Khoury, Cyrena; Konieczny, Matt; Lamb, Chad ; Lane, Kathleen; Levinson, Stephen M; Lewis, Lawrence; Lilly, Sara; Littlepage, Alison M.; Mayi, Jackie; McGoldrick, Mary; McKenney, William; McNeely, James; Murphy, Moreen; Newton, John; Oliver, Nicole ; Oscar Toledo; Othman, Ronza; Palmer, David; Parker, Erika; Parsons, Brian; Peterson, Bill; Prentice, Vincent ; Presswalla, Jenny; Reyes, Ivelisse; Robinson, Norman B; Ross, Michelle; Saeed, Irfan; Salvano-Dunn, Dana; Schaefer, Margaret; Selim, George; Shah, Rajiv; Shih, Stephen; Sim, John; Skinner, Timothy; Smith, Alice A; Smith, Joi ; Solomon, Stephanie ; Speight, Renita; Stewart, Jeffrey; Sutherland, Daniel; Sweezy, Sharon; Thompson, John K; Tosado, Rebekah; Walton, Kenneth; Wilson, Kathleen; Wong, Annie; Young, Chrystal R.; Zafar, Shaarik; 'Mason, James'; Scherr, Carla Subject: Vacancy Announcement - Director for Review and Compliance Review and Compliance has an opening for a Director for Review and Compliance posted on USAJobs. The vacancy announcement number is 237552 and closes on February 19th. Applications will be accepted from current or former Federal employees with competitive status or eligibility for competitive service appointments; displaced Federal employees requesting priority consideration under the Interagency Career Transition Assistance Program (ICTAP); veterans who are preference eligible or who have been separated under honorable conditions after 3 years or more of continuous service; and individuals with disability. Please forward to anyone who may be eligible and interested. Kind regards, Deana H. Amendolia Department of Homeland Security Office for Civil Rights & Civil Liberties (202)357-8451 Phone (202)380-8794 Mobile (202)357-8296 Fax From sayotte at tbase.com Sat Feb 7 00:13:06 2009 From: sayotte at tbase.com (Sharlyn Ayotte) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:13:06 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper In-Reply-To: <20090206235834.C3D544FDC002@mail.tbase.com> Message-ID: <20090207001339.56F3F4FDC002@mail.tbase.com> Isn't shipping of braille paper free when it goes via USPS? Sharlyn -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Angie Matney Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:43 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper Hi Mike and all, I think that the NFB has the best price on tractor-feed paper. I believe it's $30 for a box of 1000 sheets, plus $14 shipping. Should get to you pretty quickly, given your location. Angie _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sayotte%40tbase.co m From angie at mpmail.net Sat Feb 7 00:55:28 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 19:55:28 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper In-Reply-To: <20090207001339.56F3F4FDC002@mail.tbase.com> Message-ID: You might be able to ship it free matter. I don't know. I just know that $14 was listed on the NFB site. Even so, it was cheaper than paper from other sites. Angie On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:13:06 -0500, Sharlyn Ayotte wrote: >Isn't shipping of braille paper free when it goes via USPS? >Sharlyn >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Angie Matney >Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:43 PM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper >Hi Mike and all, >I think that the NFB has the best price on tractor-feed paper. I believe >it's $30 for a box of 1000 sheets, plus $14 shipping. Should get to you >pretty quickly, given your location. >Angie >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sayotte%40tbase.co >m >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie%40mpmail.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 7 01:57:49 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 17:57:49 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a legislative action center where members and supporters could send emails or faxes to legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up I attempted to contact the offices of Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. As my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the organization is showing appreciation of the members continued involvement and support on such issues. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Danielsen" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > Hi Everett, > > The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the > Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational > rehabilitation > agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and most > are > probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting what > services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where the > services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason that > those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that we > shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway is > like > saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet > mignon > you will pass on bread and water. > > I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like the > language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the > policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really curious > about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind > RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > Good evening, > > I doubt that by rejecting the amendment > that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. > Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired American's > are > unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it is > likely isn't the best idea. > > Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be replaced > with > something better, but the current system at the current funding level > isn't > working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press > release. > > Everett > > On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews > >) wrote: > >> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >> >> CONTACT: >> Chris Danielsen >> Director of Public Relations >> National Federation of the Blind >> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >> cdanielsen at nfb.org >> >> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >> >> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of >> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose >> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being >> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training >> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >> >> # # # >> >> >> About the National Federation of the Blind >> >> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force >> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In >> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >> United States for the blind led by the blind. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >> felt.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. > com > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature > database 3834 (20090206) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature > database 3834 (20090206) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From roddj12 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 7 02:07:50 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:07:50 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] =?windows-1252?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_?= =?windows-1252?q?U=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com><006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server><7556b95a0902060749l362a9fa1h3711503c88de03f7@mail.gmail.com><007101c9889a$66795aa0$6601a8c0@server> <7556b95a0902061239x3859f664me93cad9b4a35ee7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: How can you reproduce a book yourself in an accessible format if not by using a copyrighted book? I think what's been said here is that if you scan a book for your own use, per se this is not a copyright violation; however, if you scan a book and give a copy of that electronic file to all of your friends, then it becomes a violation because in this case it would not have been solely for your own use. It doesn't matter that you did not receive compensation, sharing of copyrighted materials is illegal. As been pointed out, if you wish to sell the book, you must destroy the electronic copy you scanned. There is an argument that you are not even permitted to give that electronic copy to another blind person because you are not a "not for profit organization" authorized to do that. In other words, what's considered copyrighted is the actual book, not the electronic version. Because you went and scanned it and made it accessible, does not turn it into your property. In other words, you still own only one copy of the book, not two. If you really want to get down with this, one can even argue that the electronic text has to always accompany the actual hard copy of the book, but this would go to the extreme and it clearly gets ridiculous beyond that. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 That would be true, but I was refering to a book that you yourself produced in an alternative format. On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hello, > What you have presented is your interpretation of what common sense tells > you the statute must mean. Unfortunately, with statutes, we are stuck > with > the exact language of the statute, and court opinions which have > interpreted > the meaning of the statute. As a lawyer you could make this argument to a > court, but the reality is that the statute does not specifically say what > you are reading into it. Consequently, you would need to find a federal > court opinion which presents your view, and I am not aware of one which > does. > > The Chafee amendment specifies that only nonprofit entities that produce > books in alternative formats for the blind may distribute them. It does > not > say that a blind person who has received a copyrighted work in an > alternative format from an authorized entity, may himself distribute his > copy to anyone else who is also blind, even when he does not retain any > copies. This argument suggests that a slight twist on the first sale > doctrine is present in the Chafee amendment, but I am not aware of any > source to support this idea. The first sale doctrine is what permits you > to > resell or give away a patented or copyrighted product which you purchased. > Without the first sale doctrine, you would never be able to resell a > copyrighted or patented product which you legitimately purchased, because > selling a copyrighted or patented product when you do not own the > intellectual property rights is the very definition of infringement. > > My legal advice based on a strict reading of the Chafee amendment to a > client who wishes to give a Braille book produced by a nonprofit entity, > is > that they should return the Braille book to the nonprofit entity which > originally produced it, along with instructions to ship the Braille book > to > the other blind party. The reason for the nonprofit to be the decider of > who should receive books in alternative formats, is that they have > established procedures in place to determine who is actually blind or > reading disabled, and therefore authorized to receive materials in > alternative formats. > > The blind owner of the book we are discussing has no medical documentation > to know for a fact that the party he is giving the Braille book to is > actually reading disabled. The recipient for example could be sighted, > and > then scan the Braille book into a computer using software which will > convert > grade 2 Braille into an electronic file, and then use that file to print > out > illegal copies of the copyrighted work in print. Seems like a lot of > work, > but it could be done, and this is what the law is attempting to prevent. > > Moreover, if the Chafee amendment permits us to redistribute books in > alternative formats for use by the blind so long as we do not retain a > copy > for ourselves, we could redistribute Bookshare and RFB books without > violating the copyright act. We would of course be violating our > membership > agreement with Bookshare and RFB, but that is a question of contract law, > not copyright law. Clearly Bookshare and RFB believe this would violate > the > Chafee amendment and that is why their membership agreement prohibits us > from giving copies of books obtained from them to other blind people. > > Copyright law presents interesting questions. > > Regards, > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:49 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > I think that the main point in this, like all copyright cases, is > complete relinquishment of the material. If you give the modified > materialto another student and relinquish your right to the material > (you don't keep any copy, digital or otherwise) it's completely legal. > Same as if I sold a CD I had not ripped to someone else. > > On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: >> Hello, >> Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another >> student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the >> thermoforming >> of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to >> prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in >> redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about >> copyright >> infringement? >> Dennis >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Pepper" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 >> >> >> Here is the law: >> (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section >> 106, >> it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to >> reproduce >> or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, >> nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced >> or >> distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other >> persons with disabilities. >> (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) >> not >> be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format >> exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; >> (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a >> format >> other than a specialized format is an infringement; and >> (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the >> date >> of the original publication. >> (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, >> secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to >> computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional >> human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed >> to >> users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com From roddj12 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 7 02:13:07 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:13:07 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] =?windows-1252?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_?= =?windows-1252?q?U=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com><006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server><7556b95a0902060749l362a9fa1h3711503c88de03f7@mail.gmail.com> <007101c9889a$66795aa0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: Dennis is right on point! I wouldnt have even written a response if I had seen his first. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 Hello, What you have presented is your interpretation of what common sense tells you the statute must mean. Unfortunately, with statutes, we are stuck with the exact language of the statute, and court opinions which have interpreted the meaning of the statute. As a lawyer you could make this argument to a court, but the reality is that the statute does not specifically say what you are reading into it. Consequently, you would need to find a federal court opinion which presents your view, and I am not aware of one which does. The Chafee amendment specifies that only nonprofit entities that produce books in alternative formats for the blind may distribute them. It does not say that a blind person who has received a copyrighted work in an alternative format from an authorized entity, may himself distribute his copy to anyone else who is also blind, even when he does not retain any copies. This argument suggests that a slight twist on the first sale doctrine is present in the Chafee amendment, but I am not aware of any source to support this idea. The first sale doctrine is what permits you to resell or give away a patented or copyrighted product which you purchased. Without the first sale doctrine, you would never be able to resell a copyrighted or patented product which you legitimately purchased, because selling a copyrighted or patented product when you do not own the intellectual property rights is the very definition of infringement. My legal advice based on a strict reading of the Chafee amendment to a client who wishes to give a Braille book produced by a nonprofit entity, is that they should return the Braille book to the nonprofit entity which originally produced it, along with instructions to ship the Braille book to the other blind party. The reason for the nonprofit to be the decider of who should receive books in alternative formats, is that they have established procedures in place to determine who is actually blind or reading disabled, and therefore authorized to receive materials in alternative formats. The blind owner of the book we are discussing has no medical documentation to know for a fact that the party he is giving the Braille book to is actually reading disabled. The recipient for example could be sighted, and then scan the Braille book into a computer using software which will convert grade 2 Braille into an electronic file, and then use that file to print out illegal copies of the copyrighted work in print. Seems like a lot of work, but it could be done, and this is what the law is attempting to prevent. Moreover, if the Chafee amendment permits us to redistribute books in alternative formats for use by the blind so long as we do not retain a copy for ourselves, we could redistribute Bookshare and RFB books without violating the copyright act. We would of course be violating our membership agreement with Bookshare and RFB, but that is a question of contract law, not copyright law. Clearly Bookshare and RFB believe this would violate the Chafee amendment and that is why their membership agreement prohibits us from giving copies of books obtained from them to other blind people. Copyright law presents interesting questions. Regards, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:49 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 I think that the main point in this, like all copyright cases, is complete relinquishment of the material. If you give the modified materialto another student and relinquish your right to the material (you don't keep any copy, digital or otherwise) it's completely legal. Same as if I sold a CD I had not ripped to someone else. On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hello, > Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another > student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the thermoforming > of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to > prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in > redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about > copyright > infringement? > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > Here is the law: > (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section > 106, > it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to > reproduce > or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, > nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or > distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other > persons with disabilities. > (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) > not > be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format > exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; > (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a > format > other than a specialized format is an infringement; and > (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the > date > of the original publication. > (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, > secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to > computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional > human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed > to > users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com From roddj12 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 7 02:18:17 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:18:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper References: <20090207001339.56F3F4FDC002@mail.tbase.com> Message-ID: Braille paper is the name given to the paper. It is not that specialized. Without Braille written on them like a Braille book, I don't know how you can legally ship it as free matter. In fact, if it is being shipped for commercial purposes, I don't even think it can be done free matter. I haven't researched that last point yet. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharlyn Ayotte" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Braille Paper > Isn't shipping of braille paper free when it goes via USPS? > Sharlyn > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Angie Matney > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:43 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper > > Hi Mike and all, > > I think that the NFB has the best price on tractor-feed paper. I believe > it's $30 for a box of 1000 sheets, plus $14 shipping. Should get to you > pretty quickly, given your location. > > Angie > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sayotte%40tbase.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > From chatter8712 at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 02:27:34 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:27:34 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server> <7556b95a0902060749l362a9fa1h3711503c88de03f7@mail.gmail.com> <007101c9889a$66795aa0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902061827g4810d2efw4d771c0ef3acc82c@mail.gmail.com> I was fully aware of what you stated; that was the basis on which I was writing my responses. On 2/6/09, Rod Alcidonis wrote: > Dennis is right on point! I wouldnt have even written a response if I had > seen his first. > > > Rod Alcidonis > Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. > Roger Williams University School of Law > 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 > Bristol, RI 02809 > Cell: 718-704-4651 > Home: 401-824-8685 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:35 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > Hello, > What you have presented is your interpretation of what common sense tells > you the statute must mean. Unfortunately, with statutes, we are stuck with > the exact language of the statute, and court opinions which have interpreted > the meaning of the statute. As a lawyer you could make this argument to a > court, but the reality is that the statute does not specifically say what > you are reading into it. Consequently, you would need to find a federal > court opinion which presents your view, and I am not aware of one which > does. > > The Chafee amendment specifies that only nonprofit entities that produce > books in alternative formats for the blind may distribute them. It does not > say that a blind person who has received a copyrighted work in an > alternative format from an authorized entity, may himself distribute his > copy to anyone else who is also blind, even when he does not retain any > copies. This argument suggests that a slight twist on the first sale > doctrine is present in the Chafee amendment, but I am not aware of any > source to support this idea. The first sale doctrine is what permits you to > resell or give away a patented or copyrighted product which you purchased. > Without the first sale doctrine, you would never be able to resell a > copyrighted or patented product which you legitimately purchased, because > selling a copyrighted or patented product when you do not own the > intellectual property rights is the very definition of infringement. > > My legal advice based on a strict reading of the Chafee amendment to a > client who wishes to give a Braille book produced by a nonprofit entity, is > that they should return the Braille book to the nonprofit entity which > originally produced it, along with instructions to ship the Braille book to > the other blind party. The reason for the nonprofit to be the decider of > who should receive books in alternative formats, is that they have > established procedures in place to determine who is actually blind or > reading disabled, and therefore authorized to receive materials in > alternative formats. > > The blind owner of the book we are discussing has no medical documentation > to know for a fact that the party he is giving the Braille book to is > actually reading disabled. The recipient for example could be sighted, and > then scan the Braille book into a computer using software which will convert > grade 2 Braille into an electronic file, and then use that file to print out > illegal copies of the copyrighted work in print. Seems like a lot of work, > but it could be done, and this is what the law is attempting to prevent. > > Moreover, if the Chafee amendment permits us to redistribute books in > alternative formats for use by the blind so long as we do not retain a copy > for ourselves, we could redistribute Bookshare and RFB books without > violating the copyright act. We would of course be violating our membership > agreement with Bookshare and RFB, but that is a question of contract law, > not copyright law. Clearly Bookshare and RFB believe this would violate the > Chafee amendment and that is why their membership agreement prohibits us > from giving copies of books obtained from them to other blind people. > > Copyright law presents interesting questions. > > Regards, > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:49 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > I think that the main point in this, like all copyright cases, is > complete relinquishment of the material. If you give the modified > materialto another student and relinquish your right to the material > (you don't keep any copy, digital or otherwise) it's completely legal. > Same as if I sold a CD I had not ripped to someone else. > > On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: >> Hello, >> Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another >> student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the thermoforming >> of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to >> prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in >> redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about >> copyright >> infringement? >> Dennis >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Pepper" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 >> >> >> Here is the law: >> (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section >> 106, >> it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to >> reproduce >> or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, >> nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or >> distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other >> persons with disabilities. >> (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) >> not >> be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format >> exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; >> (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a >> format >> other than a specialized format is an infringement; and >> (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the >> date >> of the original publication. >> (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, >> secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to >> computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional >> human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed >> to >> users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Sat Feb 7 18:03:12 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 11:03:12 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment References: Message-ID: That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a legislative >action center where members and supporters could send emails or faxes to >legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up I attempted to >contact the offices of > Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. As > my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have > time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when > legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to > prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an > organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the > organization is showing appreciation of the members continued involvement > and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the > BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation >> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and most >> are >> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >> what >> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where the >> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason that >> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that we >> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway is >> like >> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >> mignon >> you will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like the >> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >> curious >> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired American's >> are >> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it is >> likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be replaced >> with >> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >> isn't >> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press >> release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of >>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose >>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being >>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training >>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force >>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In >>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 19:34:11 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 13:34:11 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 In-Reply-To: <20090206.092701.4008.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090206.092701.4008.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Here is the law: Here is the law: (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities. (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) not be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a format other than a specialized format is an infringement; and (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the date of the original publication. (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed to users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. Thsi only applies to non dramatical works. Tom Clancy is a dramatic work, so you either take what the publisher, owner of the content publishes or you can not read his book. He does not have to sell you a thing! And you have no right to take his work without permission. James On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > Mr. Pepper, > > I respectfully disagree. What I have described vis-a-vis the Tom Clancy > book is really just format shifting of an item that I own, i.e., the > book. (I agree Tom Clancy or whoever continues to own the copyright.) > However, format-shifting - that is, taking content you own in one format > and putting it into another format, for personal, use, is considered fair > use. I base this on 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player > decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Circ. > 1999). > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:04:15 -0600 James Pepper writes: > > No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a > > literary work > > and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical book > > you > > would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you just > > stole > > his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way you do > > not > > aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his > > copyright. Oh > > and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to > > enforcement > > of Tom Clancy books! > > > > James Pepper > > > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > > wrote: > > > > > I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a > > bit of > > > research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > > > > > > Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I > > purchased > > > the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut > > it up, > > > run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After > > it's > > > was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a > > voice > > > format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. > > Since > > > it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired > > legally, > > > I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I > > understand > > > that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other > > > countries, i.e. Australia.) > > > > > > Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the > > copy > > > right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this > > thread. > > > > > > Patrick H. Stiehm > > > Stiehm Law Office > > > Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews > > > > > writes: > > > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > > > reading services, and information access services > > > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the > > realization of > > > > how > > > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright > > protection > > > > is. > > > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > > > > rather > > > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a > > broader > > > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > > > > paperback, > > > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > > > > document. > > > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to > > a > > > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > > > format > > > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > > > > Clancy > > > > >book. > > > > > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with > > it I > > > > then > > > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. > > Is > > > > there > > > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files > > for > > > > people to > > > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I > > simply > > > > put it > > > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my > > charging > > > > for > > > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright > > area > > > > that > > > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should > > all > > > > find > > > > >this of interest. > > > > > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > > > >Stiehm Law Office > > > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > > > > needs now. > > > > > > > > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV > > > eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >blindlaw mailing list > > > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis > > > i.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info > > > > for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > > > no.com > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. > > > > > > > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBr > Z5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. > com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Click now for prescreened plumbing contractors. > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4DnEW1a0xT6OGF80cBnxexk1PhMOwvk4Xzb1KIzR6w80hZ1/ > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From chatter8712 at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 19:53:48 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 14:53:48 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 In-Reply-To: References: <20090206.092701.4008.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902071153g5688a8e7p2fffe49a2fd0a544@mail.gmail.com> Dramatic means plays, not fiction. On 2/7/09, James Pepper wrote: > Here is the law: > Here is the law: > (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement > of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute copies > or phonorecords of a previously published, nondramatic literary work if such > copies or phonorecords are reproduced or distributed in specialized formats > exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities. > (b) > (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— > (A) not be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized > format exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; > (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a format > other than a specialized format is an infringement; and > (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the date > of the original publication. > (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, > secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to > computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional > human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed to > users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. > > Thsi only applies to non dramatical works. Tom Clancy is a dramatic work, > so you either take what the publisher, owner of the content publishes or you > can not read his book. He does not have to sell you a thing! And you have > no right to take his work without permission. > > James > > On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > wrote: > >> Mr. Pepper, >> >> I respectfully disagree. What I have described vis-a-vis the Tom Clancy >> book is really just format shifting of an item that I own, i.e., the >> book. (I agree Tom Clancy or whoever continues to own the copyright.) >> However, format-shifting - that is, taking content you own in one format >> and putting it into another format, for personal, use, is considered fair >> use. I base this on 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player >> decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Circ. >> 1999). >> >> Patrick H. Stiehm >> Stiehm Law Office >> Alexandria, VA 22309 >> 703-360-1089 (Voice) >> 703-935-8266 (Fax) >> >> >> On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:04:15 -0600 James Pepper writes: >> > No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a >> > literary work >> > and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical book >> > you >> > would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you just >> > stole >> > his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way you do >> > not >> > aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his >> > copyright. Oh >> > and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to >> > enforcement >> > of Tom Clancy books! >> > >> > James Pepper >> > >> > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm >> > wrote: >> > >> > > I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a >> > bit of >> > > research and as a result here is what I have concluded. >> > > >> > > Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I >> > purchased >> > > the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut >> > it up, >> > > run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After >> > it's >> > > was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a >> > voice >> > > format. I then listened to the book in that recorded >> > > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. >> > Since >> > > it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired >> > legally, >> > > I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I >> > understand >> > > that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other >> > > countries, i.e. Australia.) >> > > >> > > Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the >> > copy >> > > right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this >> > thread. >> > > >> > > Patrick H. Stiehm >> > > Stiehm Law Office >> > > Alexandria, VA 22309 >> > > 703-360-1089 (Voice) >> > > 703-935-8266 (Fax) >> > > >> > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews >> > >> > > writes: >> > > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio >> > > > reading services, and information access services >> > > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your >> > > > first action, making MP3's would be find under >> > > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on >> > > > internet would not be. If you gave him >> > > > the book, you might be able to give him the >> > > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, >> > > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a >> > > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Dave >> > > > >> > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >> > > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the >> > realization of >> > > > how >> > > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright >> > protection >> > > > is. >> > > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other >> > > > rather >> > > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a >> > broader >> > > > >question of copyright infringement. >> > > > > >> > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in >> > > > paperback, >> > > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF >> > > > document. >> > > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to >> > a >> > > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded >> > > > format >> > > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom >> > > > Clancy >> > > > >book. >> > > > > >> > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with >> > it I >> > > > then >> > > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. >> > Is >> > > > there >> > > > >a copyright violation at that point. >> > > > > >> > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files >> > for >> > > > people to >> > > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I >> > simply >> > > > put it >> > > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my >> > charging >> > > > for >> > > > >it. Is there a violation? >> > > > > >> > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright >> > area >> > > > that >> > > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should >> > all >> > > > find >> > > > >this of interest. >> > > > > >> > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm >> > > > >Stiehm Law Office >> > > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 >> > > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) >> > > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) >> > > > >____________________________________________________________ >> > > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household >> > > > needs now. >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV >> > > eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ >> > > > > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >> > > > >blindlaw mailing list >> > > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >> > > > >your account info for blindlaw: >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis >> > > i.com >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >> > > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> > > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: >> > > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > blindlaw mailing list >> > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > info >> > > > for blindlaw: >> > > > >> > > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >> > > no.com >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ____________________________________________________________ >> > > Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. >> > > >> > > >> > >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBr >> Z5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > blindlaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > > blindlaw: >> > > >> > > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. >> com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for blindlaw: >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >> no.com >> > >> > >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Click now for prescreened plumbing contractors. >> >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4DnEW1a0xT6OGF80cBnxexk1PhMOwvk4Xzb1KIzR6w80hZ1/ >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From jsorozco at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 20:02:18 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 15:02:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The system is called Convio, the same system that has been powering the March for Independence operation. I volunteered to build the legislative advocacy component for John Paré two years ago and was told there were other priorities ahead of this innovation. I hope the renewed request receives action this time, because it would indeed be a substantial improvement to our grassroots network. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 1:03 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >legislative action center where members and supporters could send >emails or faxes to legislators on issues such as this. Today when this >came up I attempted to contact the offices of Senators Boxer and >Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. As my time is >valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have time to >respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when legislative >offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to prepare >emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an >organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the >organization is showing appreciation of the members continued >involvement and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the >BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some >> are awful, and most are probably somewhere in between. But many of >> them are currently cutting what services they do offer because of the >> economy. Even in states where the services blind people receive are >> not the best, it stands to reason that those services will not >> improve if they are cut further. Saying that we shouldn't fight the >> amendment because the services are lousy anyway is like saying you're >> starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet mignon you >> will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like >> the language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or >> the policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm >> really curious about what it is specifically about the language that >> you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment that all Americans will have >> the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >> American's are unemployed under the current system then leaving the >> system the way it is likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be >> replaced with something better, but the current system at the current >> funding level isn't working. I really dislike the language used in >> almost every NFB press release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President >>> of the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The >>> purpose of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 >>> currently being debated in the United States Senate is to reduce >>> unemployment and to restore economic security for all Americans. In >>> order to accomplish this goal for Americans who are blind or have >>> other disabilities, state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the >>> training needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>> is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading >>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's >>> blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of >>> the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center >>> in the United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40 >>> zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40l > abarrelaw.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om From roddj12 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 7 20:12:51 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 15:12:51 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 References: <20090206.092701.4008.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Well, no mp3s. Authorized entity, not person. However, a successful argument can be made that by virtue of being blind, you are authorized to make the thing accessible once you comply with the copyright laws. An entity can be a person depending on how you frame the argument. This is more of a public policy argument. 1. person is not violating the law because he/she is blind and and the document is being converted into a specialized format, not a mass reproduction. 2. Author is not making the document accessible to the blind person despite the availability of the technology to do so. 3. A not-for-profit agency is allowed by law to make the work accessible just like the blind person would. 4. IT takes forever for this to happen. and Agencies don't do that for all books. 5. As a matter of public policy, the term "entity" should be interpreted to include persons whom the statute was enacted to protect, providing that such persons are complying with the law. It should be allowed for reasons x, y, z by citing persuasive data to show the need to encourage literacy among blind folks, and that the current interpretation of "entity" has the effect of discouraging that progress. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 Here is the law: Here is the law: (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities. (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) not be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a format other than a specialized format is an infringement; and (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the date of the original publication. (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed to users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. Thsi only applies to non dramatical works. Tom Clancy is a dramatic work, so you either take what the publisher, owner of the content publishes or you can not read his book. He does not have to sell you a thing! And you have no right to take his work without permission. James On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > Mr. Pepper, > > I respectfully disagree. What I have described vis-a-vis the Tom Clancy > book is really just format shifting of an item that I own, i.e., the > book. (I agree Tom Clancy or whoever continues to own the copyright.) > However, format-shifting - that is, taking content you own in one format > and putting it into another format, for personal, use, is considered fair > use. I base this on 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player > decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Circ. > 1999). > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:04:15 -0600 James Pepper writes: > > No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a > > literary work > > and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical book > > you > > would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you just > > stole > > his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way you do > > not > > aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his > > copyright. Oh > > and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to > > enforcement > > of Tom Clancy books! > > > > James Pepper > > > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > > wrote: > > > > > I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a > > bit of > > > research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > > > > > > Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I > > purchased > > > the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut > > it up, > > > run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After > > it's > > > was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a > > voice > > > format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. > > Since > > > it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired > > legally, > > > I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I > > understand > > > that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other > > > countries, i.e. Australia.) > > > > > > Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the > > copy > > > right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this > > thread. > > > > > > Patrick H. Stiehm > > > Stiehm Law Office > > > Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews > > > > > writes: > > > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > > > reading services, and information access services > > > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the > > realization of > > > > how > > > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright > > protection > > > > is. > > > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > > > > rather > > > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a > > broader > > > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > > > > paperback, > > > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > > > > document. > > > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to > > a > > > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > > > format > > > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > > > > Clancy > > > > >book. > > > > > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with > > it I > > > > then > > > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. > > Is > > > > there > > > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files > > for > > > > people to > > > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I > > simply > > > > put it > > > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my > > charging > > > > for > > > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright > > area > > > > that > > > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should > > all > > > > find > > > > >this of interest. > > > > > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > > > >Stiehm Law Office > > > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > > > > needs now. > > > > > > > > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV > > > eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >blindlaw mailing list > > > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis > > > i.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info > > > > for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > > > no.com > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. > > > > > > > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBr > Z5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. > com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Click now for prescreened plumbing contractors. > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4DnEW1a0xT6OGF80cBnxexk1PhMOwvk4Xzb1KIzR6w80hZ1/ > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 7 20:44:14 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 12:44:14 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I recently joined NFB I was surprised that such a system had not been implemented as a means of increasing member participation. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a legislative >action center where members and supporters could send emails or faxes to >legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up I attempted to >contact the offices of > Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. As > my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have > time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when > legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to > prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an > organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the > organization is showing appreciation of the members continued involvement > and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the > BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation >> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and most >> are >> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >> what >> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where the >> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason that >> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that we >> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway is >> like >> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >> mignon >> you will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like the >> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >> curious >> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired American's >> are >> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it is >> likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be replaced >> with >> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >> isn't >> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press >> release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of >>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose >>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being >>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training >>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force >>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In >>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 7 21:29:27 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 13:29:27 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation oftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14AE202FD2524158894603ED929BF14C@spike> this type of reaction is appalling. Actually, there are several systems out there. working as a political and community organizer I don't know of any organization today that would hold this viewpoint. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation oftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment The system is called Convio, the same system that has been powering the March for Independence operation. I volunteered to build the legislative advocacy component for John Paré two years ago and was told there were other priorities ahead of this innovation. I hope the renewed request receives action this time, because it would indeed be a substantial improvement to our grassroots network. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 1:03 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >legislative action center where members and supporters could send >emails or faxes to legislators on issues such as this. Today when this >came up I attempted to contact the offices of Senators Boxer and >Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. As my time is >valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have time to >respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when legislative >offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to prepare >emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an >organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the >organization is showing appreciation of the members continued >involvement and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the >BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some >> are awful, and most are probably somewhere in between. But many of >> them are currently cutting what services they do offer because of the >> economy. Even in states where the services blind people receive are >> not the best, it stands to reason that those services will not >> improve if they are cut further. Saying that we shouldn't fight the >> amendment because the services are lousy anyway is like saying you're >> starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet mignon you >> will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like >> the language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or >> the policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm >> really curious about what it is specifically about the language that >> you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment that all Americans will have >> the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >> American's are unemployed under the current system then leaving the >> system the way it is likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be >> replaced with something better, but the current system at the current >> funding level isn't working. I really dislike the language used in >> almost every NFB press release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President >>> of the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The >>> purpose of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 >>> currently being debated in the United States Senate is to reduce >>> unemployment and to restore economic security for all Americans. In >>> order to accomplish this goal for Americans who are blind or have >>> other disabilities, state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the >>> training needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>> is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading >>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's >>> blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of >>> the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center >>> in the United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40 >>> zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40l > abarrelaw.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From dandrews at visi.com Sun Feb 8 00:13:39 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:13:39 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 In-Reply-To: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: So, should I become a lawyer???!!! At 07:12 AM 2/5/2009, you wrote: >I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a bit of >research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > >Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I purchased >the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut it up, >run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's >was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a voice >format. I then listened to the book in that recorded me to be one. David >My Father always wanted > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. Since >it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired legally, >I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I understand >that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other >countries, i.e. Australia.) > >Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the copy >right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this thread. > >Patrick H. Stiehm >Stiehm Law Office >Alexandria, VA 22309 >703-360-1089 (Voice) >703-935-8266 (Fax) > >On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews >writes: > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > reading services, and information access services > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > Dave > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of > > how > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection > > is. > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > > rather > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > > paperback, > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > > document. > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > format > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > > Clancy > > >book. > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I > > then > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is > > there > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for > > people to > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply > > put it > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging > > for > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area > > that > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all > > find > > >this of interest. > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > >Stiehm Law Office > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > >____________________________________________________________ > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > > needs now. > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV >eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >blindlaw mailing list > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis >i.com > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for blindlaw: > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >no.com > > > > >____________________________________________________________ >Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBrZ5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 04:58:55 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 20:58:55 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> I understand it. Sometimes you have to make decisions about what to do first, even when you want to do it all. You have a finite pool of resources and you must decide how to use them. The problem is that sometimes perspectives get clouded and things slip through the cracks. It's our job to support those making the decisions by making sure that things that need doing get done. Sometimes that means finding additional resources. I'm not sure what I think of the Nelson-Collins amendment, actually. The status quo doesn't work very well, it is true, but I am not sure that a cut in funding will encourage improvement in efficiency for existing VR services. Most likely, funding changes will impact only how many are served at existing levels of VR performance. The thing that should concern the NFB is how to improve VR services. Only after that is known should questions of how to pay for it be asked. Failing to follow this model results in very expensive solutions to problems that do not exist and unresolved problems still in need of a good solution. That said, the change in number of people served by the status quo and more importantly the type of people who will be given priority for service may so impact the population of those who might change the status quo that we will no longer have the resources to make those changes that are needed. Of course, this question looms over the whole "stimulus" package, regardless of what is or isn't going to be in the final version that passes. Joseph On Sat, Feb 07, 2009 at 12:44:14PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > When I recently joined NFB I was surprised that such a system had not > been implemented as a means of increasing member participation. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:03 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of > theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > > > That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can > implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for > people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. > Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs > action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out > there Jim? What say you? > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged > information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, > copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in > error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, > and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments > are covered by the Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins > Amendment > > >> I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >> legislative action center where members and supporters could send >> emails or faxes to legislators on issues such as this. Today when this >> came up I attempted to contact the offices of >> Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. >> As my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I >> have time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when >> legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to >> prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an >> organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the >> organization is showing appreciation of the members continued >> involvement and support on such issues. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Danielsen" >> >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the >> BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> >>> Hi Everett, >>> >>> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >>> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >>> rehabilitation >>> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and >>> most are >>> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >>> what >>> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where the >>> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason that >>> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that we >>> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway >>> is like >>> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >>> mignon >>> you will pass on bread and water. >>> >>> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like the >>> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >>> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >>> curious >>> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >>> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >>> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Good evening, >>> >>> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >>> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >>> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >>> American's are >>> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it is >>> likely isn't the best idea. >>> >>> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be >>> replaced with >>> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >>> isn't >>> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press >>> release. >>> >>> Everett >>> >>> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >>> >> >) wrote: >>> >>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>> >>>> CONTACT: >>>> Chris Danielsen >>>> Director of Public Relations >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>>> >>>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>>> >>>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of >>>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose >>>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being >>>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training >>>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>>> >>>> # # # >>>> >>>> >>>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>>> >>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >>>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force >>>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In >>>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>>> felt.ca >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>> com >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 07:50:03 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 23:50:03 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action to support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When chapter meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications such as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is not really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members and an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many questions have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps the NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it relates to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing legislative information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action by members. This does not preclude the use of information published in Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation and involvement. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >I understand it. Sometimes you have to make decisions about what to do >first, even when you want to do it all. You have a finite pool of >resources and you must decide how to use them. The problem is that >sometimes perspectives get clouded and things slip through the cracks. > > It's our job to support those making the decisions by making sure that > things that need doing get done. Sometimes that means finding additional > resources. > > I'm not sure what I think of the Nelson-Collins amendment, actually. The > status quo doesn't work very well, it is true, but I am not sure that a > cut in funding will encourage improvement in efficiency for existing VR > services. Most likely, funding changes will impact only how many are > served at existing levels of VR performance. The thing that should > concern the NFB is how to improve VR services. Only after that is known > should questions of how to pay for it be asked. > > Failing to follow this model results in very expensive solutions to > problems that do not exist and unresolved problems still in need of a good > solution. > > That said, the change in number of people served by the status quo and > more importantly the type of people who will be given priority for service > may so impact the population of those who might change the status quo that > we will no longer have the resources to make those changes that are > needed. > > Of course, this question looms over the whole "stimulus" package, > regardless of what is or isn't going to be in the final version that > passes. > > Joseph > > > On Sat, Feb 07, 2009 at 12:44:14PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> When I recently joined NFB I was surprised that such a system had not >> been implemented as a means of increasing member participation. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:03 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of >> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >> >> >> That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can >> implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for >> people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way >> up. >> Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs >> action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out >> there Jim? What say you? >> Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. >> >> LaBarre Law Offices P.C. >> 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 >> Denver, Colorado 80222 >> 303 504-5979 (voice) >> 303 757-3640 (fax) >> slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) >> www.labarrelaw.com (website) >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and >> privileged >> information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, >> copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in >> error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or >> slabarre at labarrelaw.com, >> and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any >> attachments >> are covered by the Electronic >> Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of >> theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins >> Amendment >> >> >>> I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >>> legislative action center where members and supporters could send emails >>> or faxes to legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up >>> I attempted to contact the offices of >>> Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. >>> As my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I >>> have time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when >>> legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to >>> prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an >>> organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the >>> organization is showing appreciation of the members continued >>> involvement and support on such issues. >>> Chuck >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Danielsen" >>> >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the >>> BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> >>>> Hi Everett, >>>> >>>> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >>>> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >>>> rehabilitation >>>> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and >>>> most are >>>> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >>>> what >>>> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where the >>>> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason >>>> that >>>> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that we >>>> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway is >>>> like >>>> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >>>> mignon >>>> you will pass on bread and water. >>>> >>>> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like the >>>> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >>>> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >>>> curious >>>> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >>>> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >>>> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >>>> >>>> Good evening, >>>> >>>> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >>>> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >>>> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >>>> American's are >>>> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it >>>> is >>>> likely isn't the best idea. >>>> >>>> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be replaced >>>> with >>>> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >>>> isn't >>>> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press >>>> release. >>>> >>>> Everett >>>> >>>> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >>>> >>> >) wrote: >>>> >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> Director of Public Relations >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>>>> >>>>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of >>>>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>>>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose >>>>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being >>>>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>>>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>>>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>>>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>>>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>>>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>>>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>>>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training >>>>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>>>> >>>>> # # # >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>>>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>>>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>>>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force >>>>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In >>>>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>>>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>>>> felt.ca >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>> com >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 11:23:25 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 03:23:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no less than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email frequently. To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What more could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully volunteered yourself to be that person. *grin* My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to cram legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but this is what we've got. Joseph On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is > methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action to > support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When chapter > meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications such > as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for > timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is not > really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to > light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members and > an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many questions > have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting > funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps the > NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it relates > to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in > mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing legislative > information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most > effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email > alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much > more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the > fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action by > members. This does not preclude the use of information published in > Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation > and involvement. > Chuck From DFrye at nfb.org Mon Feb 9 13:22:26 2009 From: DFrye at nfb.org (Frye, Dan) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 08:22:26 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Congratulations! Legislative Objective Regarding Nelson-Collins Achieved In-Reply-To: <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B5A8A26@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> List Subscribers: I have received the following information regarding the status of the Nelson-Collins amendment that threatened VR funding from a supportive legislative consultant who regularly works with and for the NFB and other allied organizations. Please forgive any duplicate circulation of this material. Her message follows: From: Catriona Macdonald [mailto:Cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com] Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 7:21 AM Subject: STIMULUS UPDATE There's great news... and worrying news. Let's start with the great news - thanks to the hard work of the VR community and its allies, the cuts to the VR state grants that were proposed to be included in the Nelson-Collins Amendment were dropped. That means that on Monday, when the Nelson-Collins amendment is introduced, debated and voted on, and most likely passed, the $500 million increase to VR will remain intact. Absent something very unexpected, that $500 million increase will then be in the House and Senate-passed legislation. That is fabulous news! Thank you to all of you who made phone calls, emailed your Senators, forwarded alert emails, sent out alerts to your own organization's membership, and encouraged your friends to call and email. So what comes next? When the Senate passes its economic recovery legislation, it will probably be in the neighborhood of $800 billion. The House's bill is about $800 billion, too. But within those totals, there are hundreds of billions of dollars of differences between the two pieces of legislation that will have to be reconciled. One bill fixes the Alternative Minimum Tax problem for this year. The other doesn't. One bill gives a $15,000 tax credit to new home buyers. The other doesn't. One bill gives a tax credit to people who buy American-built cars. The other doesn't. The tax policy differences, combined, add up to close to $100 billion. (There are many other funding differences, too - those are just examples!) There will be a lot of pressure to maintain all the tax cuts in both bills. There will also be a lot of pressure to keep the overall package around $800 billion. The only way to do both is - you guessed it - reduce funding for other programs funded in the stimulus legislation. Technically, under the rules, any item that is the same in both the Senate and House-passed legislation (like the $500 million for VR) isn't supposed to be able to be changed in conference. In reality, the rules often go out the window when you're conferencing high profile, critical legislation like this. There's still a possibility of an across-the-board cut that would reduce all non-tax related programs by 5 or 10% in order to fund the tax cuts. Or individual programs could be put back on the chopping block. So if you haven't contacted your Senators and Representatives, it's not too late. Decisions will be made this week about how to put the final stimulus legislation together. Since the phone lines are tied up, it may be easier to email your Senators and Representatives from their websites than to call. Or phone the district office; the phone number will be on the website. You can find their websites at: www.Senate.gov www.House.gov The message we want to send, via phone or email, is: "Please make sure the $500 million for state VR grants is preserved in the final economic recovery legislation." Thank you again for all you do to advocate for people with disabilities. Catriona Macdonald President Linchpin Strategies, LLC *********************** Daniel B. Frye, J.D. Associate Editor The Braille Monitor National Federation of the Blind Office of the President 1800 Johnson Street Baltimore, Maryland 21230 Telephone: (410) 659-9314 Ext. 2208 Mobile: (410) 241-7006 Fax: (410) 685-5653 Email: DFrye at nfb.org Web Address: www.nfb.org "Voice of the Nation's Blind" _______________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 6:23 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no less than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email frequently. To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What more could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully volunteered yourself to be that person. *grin* My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to cram legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but this is what we've got. Joseph On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is > methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action > to support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When > chapter meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and > publications such as the Monitor are published once a month this does > not provide for timely action on the part of members. The > Nelson-Collins Amendment is not really the issue here it was the means > that the broader issue came to light as there was a need for immediate > action to be taken by members and an inadequate method of members to > take such action. While many questions have always been raised > regarding the quality of VR services limiting funds for such services > will not improve them on any account. Perhaps the NFB needs to spend > some time and money on modernizing the way it relates to members and > how effective existing methods of communication are in mobilizing its > members. Is the current method of distributing legislative information > through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most effective > method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email alerts as > is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much more > expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the fact > that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action by > members. This does not preclude the use of information published in > Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation and involvement. > Chuck _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dfrye%40nfb.or g From jsorozco at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 16:29:43 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 11:29:43 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Hello, To be fair, the National Center has begun the era of Web 2.0 as it pertains to youth outreach. I believe it is not enough to establish a presence on a system and believe it is sufficient to automatically expand. One should be strategic about what features are used and what is the end goal for hosting said features in the first place, but staff in Baltimore have recognized the explosion of online communication for what it is. In the case of legislative advocacy, the implementation of an instant alert system is not difficult. A service like Constant Contact would suffice for an e-mail blast to anyone who chooses to subscribe to the alerts. A Twitter account has already been established, and a strategic combination of both these features on top of a blog with RSS feeds could facilitate the person's ability to receive the news as it happens. Unless things have changed, I believe the current alerts only go out to legislative contacts across state affiliates. One only hopes these alerts will be picked up and forwarded to the public list-serves in time to give people the opportunity to act as requested. Now, this is only the notification. Because people are inherently lazy, the web site needs to be configured to facilitate the user's ability to quickly find their representative and senators and then be given the choice to either use a template of the message that needs to go out or generate a personal message of one's own. One should also have the capacity to track changes to pending legislation as is true of the GovTrack service. I disagree with Joseph that we should settle for what we have. Yes, by all means maximize the resources currently available to get the current task completed, but I see nothing wrong with revisiting the point of expansion. National Center staff do in fact have a lot on their plate, and it's easy for us to criticize the things that do not exist because we are not the ones responsible for programming the systems. Yet, it is not so easy to merely volunteer because services like Constant Contact, Sales Force and Convio cost money of the variety only the National Center can put forth. Perhaps there is a midway point members can offer assistance in a way that rhymes with the Center's priorities? Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 6:23 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no less than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email frequently. To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What more could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully volunteered yourself to be that person. *grin* My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to cram legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but this is what we've got. Joseph On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is > methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action > to support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When > chapter meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and > publications such as the Monitor are published once a month this does > not provide for timely action on the part of members. The > Nelson-Collins Amendment is not really the issue here it was the means > that the broader issue came to light as there was a need for immediate > action to be taken by members and an inadequate method of members to > take such action. While many questions have always been raised > regarding the quality of VR services limiting funds for such services > will not improve them on any account. Perhaps the NFB needs to spend > some time and money on modernizing the way it relates to members and > how effective existing methods of communication are in mobilizing its > members. Is the current method of distributing legislative information > through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most effective > method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email alerts as > is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much more > expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the fact > that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action by > members. This does not preclude the use of information published in > Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation and involvement. > Chuck _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 20:06:28 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 12:06:28 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists that I was on it was the first organization to post information about the Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members could have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to those Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web design I have much experience in political and community organizing and in that regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes forward I would be willing to be involved in the process. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no less > than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about > nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email > frequently. > > To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What more > could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has > been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to > step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully volunteered > yourself to be that person. *grin* > > My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there > wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever > action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's > not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to cram > legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of > amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You > don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the > word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but > this is what we've got. > > Joseph > > On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action to >> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When chapter >> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications such >> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is not >> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to >> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members and >> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many questions >> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting >> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps the >> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it relates >> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in >> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing legislative >> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email >> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much >> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the >> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action by >> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation >> and involvement. >> Chuck > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From Ronza.Othman at dhs.gov Mon Feb 9 20:21:23 2009 From: Ronza.Othman at dhs.gov (Othman, Ronza) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 15:21:23 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Vacancy Announcement - Supervisory EEO Specialist (Diversity) Message-ID: <74096FB4D17ADA49A21F9BED9B9A33D8DCFCE4@ZAU1UG-0308.DHSNET.DS1.DHS> Ronza M. Othman, Esq. Policy Advisor Office for Civil Rights & Civil Liberties U.S. Department of Homeland Security (202) 357-8517 ronza.othman at dhs.gov www.dhs.gov/civilliberties ________________________________ From: Amendolia, Deana Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 2:32 PM To: Allen, Elizabeth; Arora, Junish; Aziz, Sahar; Bennett, Maurice; Blackford, Candice; Bonanno, Natalie; Brown, Lawanda; Burke, George; Cantrell, Tanya; Cates, Veronica; Clark, Tracy R; Coats, Alinda ; Courtwright-Rodriguez, Susan; Crawley, Ayn; Davis, Tenedia; Dentzer, Ann Marie; Eng, Katherine; Fenlason, Janice ; Floyd, Nicshan; Fresh, Linda ; Friedman, Bruce; Fulmer, Debbie; Gersten, David; Gianlorenzo, Nancy; Glah, Janeen ; Gordon, Claudia; Gustafson, John; Hill, Tonya ; Hoffman, Allen; Hosaka, Keli ; Johnson, Beverly; Jones, Glenita ; Keefer, Timothy; Khoury, Cyrena; Konieczny, Matt; Lamb, Chad ; Lane, Kathleen; Levinson, Stephen M; Lewis, Lawrence; Lilly, Sara; Littlepage, Alison M.; Mayi, Jackie; McGoldrick, Mary; McKenney, William; McNeely, James; Murphy, Moreen; Newton, John; Oliver, Nicole ; Oscar Toledo; Othman, Ronza; Palmer, David; Parker, Erika; Parsons, Brian; Peterson, Bill; Prentice, Vincent ; Presswalla, Jenny; Reyes, Ivelisse; Robinson, Norman B; Ross, Michelle; Saeed, Irfan; Salvano-Dunn, Dana; Schaefer, Margaret; Selim, George; Shah, Rajiv; Shih, Stephen; Sim, John; Skinner, Timothy; Smith, Alice A; Smith, Joi ; Solomon, Stephanie ; Speight, Renita; Stewart, Jeffrey; Sutherland, Daniel; Sweezy, Sharon; Thompson, John K; Tosado, Rebekah; Walton, Kenneth; Wilson, Kathleen; Wong, Annie; Young, Chrystal R.; Zafar, Shaarik; Mason, James Subject: Vacany Announcement - Supervisory EEO Specialist (Diversity) Importance: High CRCL EEO Programs has an opening for a Supervisory Equal Employment Opportunity Specialist (Diversity) posted on USAJOBS (www.usajobs.gov), vacancy announcement number DHSHQ09-4042 . Posting closes on February 23rd. Please forward to any who may be interested. Kind regards, Deana H. Amendolia Department of Homeland Security Office for Civil Rights & Civil Liberties (202)357-8451 Phone (202)380-8794 Mobile (202)357-8296 Fax From chatter8712 at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 20:50:17 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 15:50:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com> I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a great idea. On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists that I > was on it was the first organization to post information about the > Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability > advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an > legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members could > have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to those > Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web design > I have much experience in political and community organizing and in that > regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes forward I > would be willing to be involved in the process. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "T. Joseph Carter" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof > theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > > >> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no less >> >> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about >> nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email >> frequently. >> >> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What more >> could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has >> been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to >> step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully volunteered >> yourself to be that person. *grin* >> >> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there >> wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever >> action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's >> not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to cram >> legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of >> amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You >> don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the >> word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but >> this is what we've got. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action to >>> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When chapter >>> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications such >>> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >>> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is not >>> >>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to >>> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members and >>> >>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many questions >>> >>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting >>> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps the >>> >>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it relates >>> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in >>> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing legislative >>> >>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email >>> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much >>> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the >>> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action by >>> >>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation >>> and involvement. >>> Chuck >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From stiehm.law at juno.com Mon Feb 9 20:51:40 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 15:51:40 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 Message-ID: <20090209.155141.3160.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Please note that this thread is "Accessibility legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121." The law quoted below is 17 U.S.C. 121. Fair Use as a concept is well-established in copyright law in the United States as well as in other countries. Based on the case law previously cited i.e., the 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Cir. 1999) format shifting for person use is Fair Use. It is not dependent on 17 U.S.C. 121 or ones disability status. Anyone can do it. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) We'll On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 13:34:11 -0600 James Pepper writes: > Here is the law: > Here is the law: > (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an > infringement > of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute > copies > or phonorecords of a previously published, nondramatic literary work > if such > copies or phonorecords are reproduced or distributed in specialized > formats > exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities. > (b) > (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— > (A) not be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a > specialized > format exclusively for use by blind or other persons with > disabilities; > (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a > format > other than a specialized format is an infringement; and > (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and > the date > of the original publication. > (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to > standardized, > secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or > to > computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in > conventional > human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and > displayed to > users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. > > Thsi only applies to non dramatical works. Tom Clancy is a dramatic > work, > so you either take what the publisher, owner of the content > publishes or you > can not read his book. He does not have to sell you a thing! And > you have > no right to take his work without permission. > > James > > On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > wrote: > > > Mr. Pepper, > > > > I respectfully disagree. What I have described vis-a-vis the Tom > Clancy > > book is really just format shifting of an item that I own, i.e., > the > > book. (I agree Tom Clancy or whoever continues to own the > copyright.) > > However, format-shifting - that is, taking content you own in one > format > > and putting it into another format, for personal, use, is > considered fair > > use. I base this on 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 > player > > decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th > Circ. > > 1999). > > > > Patrick H. Stiehm > > Stiehm Law Office > > Alexandria, VA 22309 > > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > > > On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:04:15 -0600 James Pepper > writes: > > > No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a > > > literary work > > > and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical > book > > > you > > > would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you > just > > > stole > > > his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way > you do > > > not > > > aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his > > > copyright. Oh > > > and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to > > > enforcement > > > of Tom Clancy books! > > > > > > James Pepper > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been > doing a > > > bit of > > > > research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > > > > > > > > Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I > > > purchased > > > > the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then > cut > > > it up, > > > > run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. > After > > > it's > > > > was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a > > > voice > > > > format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > > > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is > irrelevant. > > > Since > > > > it is all for my personal use of something I presumably > acquired > > > legally, > > > > I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I > > > understand > > > > that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some > other > > > > countries, i.e. Australia.) > > > > > > > > Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of > the > > > copy > > > > right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this > > > thread. > > > > > > > > Patrick H. Stiehm > > > > Stiehm Law Office > > > > Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > > > > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews > > > > > > > writes: > > > > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > > > > reading services, and information access services > > > > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > > > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > > > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > > > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > > > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > > > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > > > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > > > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > > > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the > > > realization of > > > > > how > > > > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright > > > protection > > > > > is. > > > > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the > other > > > > > rather > > > > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a > > > broader > > > > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > > > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller > in > > > > > paperback, > > > > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a > PDF > > > > > document. > > > > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert > it to > > > a > > > > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that > recorded > > > > > format > > > > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the > Tom > > > > > Clancy > > > > > >book. > > > > > > > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done > with > > > it I > > > > > then > > > > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen > to. > > > Is > > > > > there > > > > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > > > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 > files > > > for > > > > > people to > > > > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I > > > simply > > > > > put it > > > > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my > > > charging > > > > > for > > > > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > > > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the > copyright > > > area > > > > > that > > > > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we > should > > > all > > > > > find > > > > > >this of interest. > > > > > > > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > > > > >Stiehm Law Office > > > > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your > household > > > > > needs now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV > > > > eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > >blindlaw mailing list > > > > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > > > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis > > > > i.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > > > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account > > > info > > > > > for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > > > > no.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > > Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBr > > Z5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > > > for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. > > com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > > > for blindlaw: > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > > no.com > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Click now for prescreened plumbing contractors. > > > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4DnEW1a0xT6OGF80cBnxexk 1PhMOwvk4Xzb1KIzR6w80hZ1/ > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Recharge and relax. Click for great vacation ideas. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2ij8HXxCoVh8JAtMkKN9ZbTvsHQzFw9W0vzuxEadmFJxTuP/ From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 21:45:54 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 13:45:54 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net><20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net><318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> <7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike> the technology for such a program is already developed. The question is getting NFB to use and pay for its use. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to > develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy > groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not > mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a > great idea. > > On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists that >> I >> was on it was the first organization to post information about the >> Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability >> advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an >> legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members >> could >> have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to >> those >> Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web >> design >> I have much experience in political and community organizing and in that >> regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes forward I >> would be willing to be involved in the process. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "T. Joseph Carter" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof >> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >> >> >>> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no >>> less >>> >>> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about >>> nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email >>> frequently. >>> >>> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What >>> more >>> could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has >>> been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to >>> step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully >>> volunteered >>> yourself to be that person. *grin* >>> >>> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there >>> wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever >>> action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's >>> not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to >>> cram >>> legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of >>> amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You >>> don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the >>> word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but >>> this is what we've got. >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action to >>>> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When >>>> chapter >>>> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications >>>> such >>>> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >>>> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is >>>> not >>>> >>>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to >>>> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members >>>> and >>>> >>>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many >>>> questions >>>> >>>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting >>>> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps >>>> the >>>> >>>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it >>>> relates >>>> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in >>>> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing >>>> legislative >>>> >>>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email >>>> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much >>>> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the >>>> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action >>>> by >>>> >>>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation >>>> and involvement. >>>> Chuck >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 23:08:57 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 15:08:57 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> References: <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> Message-ID: <20090209230857.GB7539@yumi.bluecherry.net> I think I see what you and Joe are advocating now. Not a bad idea actually. My apologies for missing the point before. Joseph On Mon, Feb 09, 2009 at 12:06:28PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists that > I was on it was the first organization to post information about the > Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability > advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an > legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members > could have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax > to those Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in > web design I have much experience in political and community organizing > and in that regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this > goes forward I would be willing to be involved in the process. > Chuck From b75205 at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 23:39:58 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 17:39:58 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike> References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> <7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com> <12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike> Message-ID: Well all they really need to do is issue the press releases directly to the members. If they need to do anything fancy they can use daisy for more extensively laid out items, particularly legislation, thats not that difficult. The only problem I see is when people try to access congressional websites for addresses, that would have to be provided in the press release. James On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:45 PM, wrote: > the technology for such a program is already developed. The question is > getting NFB to use and pay for its use. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] > NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > > > > I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to >> develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy >> groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not >> mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a >> great idea. >> >> On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> >>> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists that >>> I >>> was on it was the first organization to post information about the >>> Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability >>> advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an >>> legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members >>> could >>> have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to >>> those >>> Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web >>> design >>> I have much experience in political and community organizing and in that >>> regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes forward I >>> would be willing to be involved in the process. >>> Chuck >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "T. Joseph Carter" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof >>> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >>> >>> >>> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no >>>> less >>>> >>>> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about >>>> nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email >>>> frequently. >>>> >>>> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What >>>> more >>>> could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has >>>> been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to >>>> step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully >>>> volunteered >>>> yourself to be that person. *grin* >>>> >>>> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there >>>> wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever >>>> action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's >>>> not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to >>>> cram >>>> legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of >>>> amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You >>>> don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the >>>> word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but >>>> this is what we've got. >>>> >>>> Joseph >>>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>>>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action to >>>>> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When >>>>> chapter >>>>> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications >>>>> such >>>>> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >>>>> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is >>>>> not >>>>> >>>>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to >>>>> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many >>>>> questions >>>>> >>>>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting >>>>> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it >>>>> relates >>>>> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in >>>>> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing >>>>> legislative >>>>> >>>>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>>>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email >>>>> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much >>>>> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the >>>>> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action >>>>> by >>>>> >>>>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>>>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation >>>>> and involvement. >>>>> Chuck >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> -- >> -Shane >> Website: http://www.blind-geek.com >> AIM: inhaddict >> MSN: shane at blind-geek.com >> Skype: chatter8712 >> Twitter: blind_geek >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 23:59:30 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 15:59:30 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <20090209230857.GB7539@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net><318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> <20090209230857.GB7539@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <56C15CD5DB8943F0B906715ABAE4B17C@spike> If you need to you can contact me off list or by phone to discuss this further. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >I think I see what you and Joe are advocating now. Not a bad idea >actually. My apologies for missing the point before. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Feb 09, 2009 at 12:06:28PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists that >> I was on it was the first organization to post information about the >> Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability >> advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an >> legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members >> could have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax >> to those Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in >> web design I have much experience in political and community organizing >> and in that regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this >> goes forward I would be willing to be involved in the process. >> Chuck > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From jsorozco at gmail.com Tue Feb 10 00:47:32 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 19:47:32 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike> Message-ID: <0671B31B118C4981A850954EC7CF64BB@MonkeyPaw> Exactly. There is no traditional web development required, because the designing is all carried out online using their tools. In most cases the pages are custom-built to reflect the organization's general look and feel. All that is required is the investment, and since the Center has already trained staff on how to use the system for the fundraising component, all that would be required is some training on how to take advantage of the advocacy tools. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 4:46 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw]NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment the technology for such a program is already developed. The question is getting NFB to use and pay for its use. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to >develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy >groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not >mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a >great idea. > > On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists >> that I was on it was the first organization to post information about >> the Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other >> disability advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not >> all. Had an legislative action been in place along with the alert >> emails members could have clicked on a link in the email and >> generated an email or fax to those Senators acting on this amendment. >> While my background is not in web design I have much experience in >> political and community organizing and in that regard I am familiar >> with how these systems work. If this goes forward I would be willing >> to be involved in the process. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "T. Joseph Carter" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof >> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >> >> >>> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received >>> no less >>> >>> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of >>> about nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my >>> email frequently. >>> >>> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What >>> more could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not >>> surprised it has been on the back burner waiting for someone with >>> the energy and drive to step forward and make it happen. You might >>> have successfully volunteered yourself to be that person. *grin* >>> >>> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that >>> there wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take >>> whatever action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we >>> had. There's not much that can be done when a near supermajority >>> starts trying to cram legislation down our throats with hundreds of >>> pages and dozens of amendments unless you are right there and >>> watching it constantly. You don't have time to get the word out, >>> and the people you want to get the word out to probably haven't got >>> time to respond. It's unfortunate, but this is what we've got. >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take >>>> action to support the NFB philosophy when advocating for >>>> legislation. When chapter meetings are held once a month and state >>>> bulletins and publications such as the Monitor are published once a >>>> month this does not provide for timely action on the part of >>>> members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is not >>>> >>>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came >>>> to light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by >>>> members and >>>> >>>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many >>>> questions >>>> >>>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services >>>> limiting funds for such services will not improve them on any >>>> account. Perhaps the >>>> >>>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it >>>> relates to members and how effective existing methods of >>>> communication are in mobilizing its members. Is the current method >>>> of distributing legislative >>>> >>>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative >>>> email alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as >>>> it is much more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter >>>> meetings and the fact that it is available in an accessible format >>>> for immediate action by >>>> >>>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member >>>> participation and involvement. >>>> Chuck >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%4 >>> 0sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s > bcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 10 02:08:34 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:08:34 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net><20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net><318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike><7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com><12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike> Message-ID: <3700A3EE624644EDA3C5974AEBD96144@spike> with the use of an email legislative alert system the emails or faxes are sent automatically to the legislators as the system is able to match up the member's address with their state and Federal legislative districts. There is then no need to waste time going to web sites looking up legislative addresses. The system can also be used to generate state specific alerts on issues. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > Well all they really need to do is issue the press releases directly to > the > members. If they need to do anything fancy they can use daisy for more > extensively laid out items, particularly legislation, thats not that > difficult. The only problem I see is when people try to access > congressional > websites for addresses, that would have to be provided in the press > release. > > James > > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:45 PM, wrote: > >> the technology for such a program is already developed. The question is >> getting NFB to use and pay for its use. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:50 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] >> NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >> >> >> >> I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to >>> develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy >>> groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not >>> mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a >>> great idea. >>> >>> On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>> >>>> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists >>>> that >>>> I >>>> was on it was the first organization to post information about the >>>> Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability >>>> advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an >>>> legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members >>>> could >>>> have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to >>>> those >>>> Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web >>>> design >>>> I have much experience in political and community organizing and in >>>> that >>>> regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes forward >>>> I >>>> would be willing to be involved in the process. >>>> Chuck >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "T. Joseph Carter" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof >>>> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >>>> >>>> >>>> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no >>>>> less >>>>> >>>>> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of >>>>> about >>>>> nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email >>>>> frequently. >>>>> >>>>> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What >>>>> more >>>>> could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it >>>>> has >>>>> been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive >>>>> to >>>>> step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully >>>>> volunteered >>>>> yourself to be that person. *grin* >>>>> >>>>> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there >>>>> wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take >>>>> whatever >>>>> action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. >>>>> There's >>>>> not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to >>>>> cram >>>>> legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of >>>>> amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You >>>>> don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get >>>>> the >>>>> word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, >>>>> but >>>>> this is what we've got. >>>>> >>>>> Joseph >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>>>>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action >>>>>> to >>>>>> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When >>>>>> chapter >>>>>> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications >>>>>> such >>>>>> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >>>>>> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is >>>>>> not >>>>>> >>>>>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to >>>>>> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many >>>>>> questions >>>>>> >>>>>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting >>>>>> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it >>>>>> relates >>>>>> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in >>>>>> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing >>>>>> legislative >>>>>> >>>>>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>>>>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email >>>>>> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is >>>>>> much >>>>>> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the >>>>>> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate >>>>>> action >>>>>> by >>>>>> >>>>>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>>>>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member >>>>>> participation >>>>>> and involvement. >>>>>> Chuck >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> -Shane >>> Website: http://www.blind-geek.com >>> AIM: inhaddict >>> MSN: shane at blind-geek.com >>> Skype: chatter8712 >>> Twitter: blind_geek >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From b75205 at gmail.com Tue Feb 10 02:37:26 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:37:26 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <3700A3EE624644EDA3C5974AEBD96144@spike> References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> <7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com> <12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike> <3700A3EE624644EDA3C5974AEBD96144@spike> Message-ID: actually the AAPD has this system in effect. Perhaps the NFB shoudl coordinate with them! James On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 8:08 PM, wrote: > with the use of an email legislative alert system the emails or faxes are > sent automatically to the legislators as the system is able to match up the > member's address with their state and Federal legislative districts. There > is then no need to waste time going to web sites looking up legislative > addresses. The system can also be used to generate state specific alerts on > issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:39 PM > > Subject: Re: > [blindlaw]NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > > > Well all they really need to do is issue the press releases directly to the >> members. If they need to do anything fancy they can use daisy for more >> extensively laid out items, particularly legislation, thats not that >> difficult. The only problem I see is when people try to access >> congressional >> websites for addresses, that would have to be provided in the press >> release. >> >> James >> >> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:45 PM, wrote: >> >> the technology for such a program is already developed. The question is >>> getting NFB to use and pay for its use. >>> Chuck >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:50 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] >>> NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >>> >>> >>> >>> I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to >>> >>>> develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy >>>> groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not >>>> mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a >>>> great idea. >>>> >>>> On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>>> >>>> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists >>>>> that >>>>> I >>>>> was on it was the first organization to post information about the >>>>> Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability >>>>> advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an >>>>> legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members >>>>> could >>>>> have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to >>>>> those >>>>> Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web >>>>> design >>>>> I have much experience in political and community organizing and in >>>>> that >>>>> regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes forward >>>>> I >>>>> would be willing to be involved in the process. >>>>> Chuck >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "T. Joseph Carter" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof >>>>> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no >>>>> >>>>>> less >>>>>> >>>>>> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of >>>>>> about >>>>>> nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email >>>>>> frequently. >>>>>> >>>>>> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What >>>>>> more >>>>>> could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it >>>>>> has >>>>>> been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive >>>>>> to >>>>>> step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully >>>>>> volunteered >>>>>> yourself to be that person. *grin* >>>>>> >>>>>> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there >>>>>> wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take >>>>>> whatever >>>>>> action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. >>>>>> There's >>>>>> not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to >>>>>> cram >>>>>> legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of >>>>>> amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You >>>>>> don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get >>>>>> the >>>>>> word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, >>>>>> but >>>>>> this is what we've got. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joseph >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.netwrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>>>>>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When >>>>>>> chapter >>>>>>> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications >>>>>>> such >>>>>>> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >>>>>>> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> >>>>>>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to >>>>>>> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many >>>>>>> questions >>>>>>> >>>>>>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting >>>>>>> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it >>>>>>> relates >>>>>>> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in >>>>>>> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing >>>>>>> legislative >>>>>>> >>>>>>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>>>>>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email >>>>>>> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the >>>>>>> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate >>>>>>> action >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> >>>>>>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>>>>>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member >>>>>>> participation >>>>>>> and involvement. >>>>>>> Chuck >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> -Shane >>>> Website: http://www.blind-geek.com >>>> AIM: inhaddict >>>> MSN: shane at blind-geek.com >>>> Skype: chatter8712 >>>> Twitter: blind_geek >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 10 02:47:25 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:47:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net><20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net><318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike><7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com><12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike><3700A3EE624644EDA3C5974AEBD96144@spike> Message-ID: Is theirs actually sending out the alerts and responses to legislators? The last time I checked their web site users still had to go to the legislators web sites and respond and since I couldn't do it automatically and didn't want to waste time doing it I never went back. I know this shows my level of laziness when it comes to responding and how spoiled I've become by Internet technology. This was a while ago. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > actually the AAPD has this system in effect. Perhaps the NFB shoudl > coordinate with them! > > James > > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 8:08 PM, wrote: > >> with the use of an email legislative alert system the emails or faxes are >> sent automatically to the legislators as the system is able to match up >> the >> member's address with their state and Federal legislative districts. >> There >> is then no need to waste time going to web sites looking up legislative >> addresses. The system can also be used to generate state specific alerts >> on >> issues. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:39 PM >> >> Subject: Re: >> [blindlaw]NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >> >> >> Well all they really need to do is issue the press releases directly to >> the >>> members. If they need to do anything fancy they can use daisy for more >>> extensively laid out items, particularly legislation, thats not that >>> difficult. The only problem I see is when people try to access >>> congressional >>> websites for addresses, that would have to be provided in the press >>> release. >>> >>> James >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:45 PM, wrote: >>> >>> the technology for such a program is already developed. The question is >>>> getting NFB to use and pay for its use. >>>> Chuck >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:50 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] >>>> NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to >>>> >>>>> develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy >>>>> groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not >>>>> mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a >>>>> great idea. >>>>> >>>>> On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists >>>>>> that >>>>>> I >>>>>> was on it was the first organization to post information about the >>>>>> Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability >>>>>> advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an >>>>>> legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members >>>>>> could >>>>>> have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to >>>>>> those >>>>>> Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web >>>>>> design >>>>>> I have much experience in political and community organizing and in >>>>>> that >>>>>> regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes >>>>>> forward >>>>>> I >>>>>> would be willing to be involved in the process. >>>>>> Chuck >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "T. Joseph Carter" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof >>>>>> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no >>>>>> >>>>>>> less >>>>>>> >>>>>>> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of >>>>>>> about >>>>>>> nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email >>>>>>> frequently. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and >>>>>>> drive >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully >>>>>>> volunteered >>>>>>> yourself to be that person. *grin* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take >>>>>>> whatever >>>>>>> action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. >>>>>>> There's >>>>>>> not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to >>>>>>> cram >>>>>>> legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of >>>>>>> amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>> don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> this is what we've got. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, >>>>>>> ckrugman at sbcglobal.netwrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>>>>>>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take >>>>>>>> action >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When >>>>>>>> chapter >>>>>>>> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications >>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >>>>>>>> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by >>>>>>>> members >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many >>>>>>>> questions >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services >>>>>>>> limiting >>>>>>>> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. >>>>>>>> Perhaps >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it >>>>>>>> relates >>>>>>>> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing >>>>>>>> legislative >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>>>>>>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative >>>>>>>> email >>>>>>>> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate >>>>>>>> action >>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>>>>>>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member >>>>>>>> participation >>>>>>>> and involvement. >>>>>>>> Chuck >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> -Shane >>>>> Website: http://www.blind-geek.com >>>>> AIM: inhaddict >>>>> MSN: shane at blind-geek.com >>>>> Skype: chatter8712 >>>>> Twitter: blind_geek >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From roddj12 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 8 03:13:14 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 22:13:14 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 References: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: David: That's what makes it fun! Technically, you are a violator. (Smile). Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 So, should I become a lawyer???!!! At 07:12 AM 2/5/2009, you wrote: >I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a bit of >research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > >Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I purchased >the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut it up, >run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's >was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a voice >format. I then listened to the book in that recorded me to be one. David >My Father always wanted > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. Since >it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired legally, >I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I understand >that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other >countries, i.e. Australia.) > >Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the copy >right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this thread. > >Patrick H. Stiehm >Stiehm Law Office >Alexandria, VA 22309 >703-360-1089 (Voice) >703-935-8266 (Fax) > >On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews >writes: > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > reading services, and information access services > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > Dave > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of > > how > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection > > is. > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > > rather > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > > paperback, > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > > document. > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > format > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > > Clancy > > >book. > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I > > then > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is > > there > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for > > people to > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply > > put it > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging > > for > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area > > that > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all > > find > > >this of interest. > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > >Stiehm Law Office > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > >____________________________________________________________ > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > > needs now. > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV >eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >blindlaw mailing list > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis >i.com > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for blindlaw: > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >no.com > > > > >____________________________________________________________ >Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBrZ5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 >7:21 PM _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com From JFreeh at nfb.org Fri Feb 13 03:38:09 2009 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 21:38:09 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 Baltimore, Maryland (February 12, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the largest organization of blind people in the United States, today responded to a statement put out by the Authors Guild advising its members to consider negotiating contracts prohibiting e-books to be read aloud by the new Amazon Kindle 2, which incorporates text-to-speech technology. The Authors Guild argues that the reading of a book out loud by a machine is a copyright infringement unless the copyright holder has specifically granted permission for the book to be read aloud. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The National Federation of the Blind supports all technologies that allow blind people to have better access to the printed word, including the ability of devices like the Kindle 2 to read commercial e-books aloud using text-to-speech technology. Although the Authors Guild claims that it supports making books accessible to the blind, its position on the inclusion of text-to-speech technology in the Kindle 2 is harmful to blind people. The Authors Guild says that having a book read aloud by a machine in the privacy of one's home or vehicle is a copyright infringement. But blind people routinely use readers, either human or machine, to access books that are not available in alternative formats like Braille or audio. Up until now, no one has argued that this is illegal, but now the Authors Guild says that it is. This is absolutely wrong. The blind and other readers have the right for books to be presented to us in the format that is most useful to us, and we are not violating copyright law as long as we use readers, either human or machine, for private rather than public listening. The key point is that reading aloud in private is the same whether done by a person or a machine, and reading aloud in private is never an infringement of copyright. "Amazon has taken a step in the right direction by including text-to-speech technology for reading e-books aloud on its new Kindle 2," Dr. Maurer continued. "We note, however, that the device itself cannot be used independently by a blind reader because the controls to download a book and begin reading it aloud are visual and therefore inaccessible to the blind. We urge Amazon to rectify this situation as soon as possible in order to make the Kindle 2 a device that truly can be used both by blind and sighted readers. By doing so, Amazon will make it possible for blind people to purchase a new book and begin reading it immediately, just as sighted people do." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. From lmilholland at hotmail.com Fri Feb 13 13:54:29 2009 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:54:29 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: * Moving your lips while reading in front of someone who can read lips is therefore a copyright violation. * allowing someone to read over your shoulder is a copyright violation. *Sitting on the beach and reading with reflective mirrored sunglasses is a copyright violation. *remembering what you read, is a copyright violation, if over 100 words and/or not properly cited. Future litigation: Timex v. guy who answered when asked for the time. Rand Mcnally v. guy who gave directions MLB v. guy who told his friend the score without the expressed written consent of Major League Baseball and its affiliates Common sense v. copyright holders. Locke -------------------------------------------------- From: "Freeh,Jessica (by way of David Andrews )" Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:38 PM To: Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > CONTACT: > Chris Danielsen > Director of Public Relations > National Federation of the Blind > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild > Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 > > Baltimore, Maryland (February 12, 2009): The National Federation of the > Blind, the largest organization of blind people in the United States, > today responded to a statement put out by the Authors Guild advising its > members to consider negotiating contracts prohibiting e-books to be read > aloud by the new Amazon Kindle 2, which incorporates text-to-speech > technology. The Authors Guild argues that the reading of a book out loud > by a machine is a copyright infringement unless the copyright holder has > specifically granted permission for the book to be read aloud. > > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: > "The National Federation of the Blind supports all technologies that allow > blind people to have better access to the printed word, including the > ability of devices like the Kindle 2 to read commercial e-books aloud > using text-to-speech technology. Although the Authors Guild claims that it > supports making books accessible to the blind, its position on the > inclusion of text-to-speech technology in the Kindle 2 is harmful to blind > people. The Authors Guild says that having a book read aloud by a machine > in the privacy of one's home or vehicle is a copyright infringement. But > blind people routinely use readers, either human or machine, to access > books that are not available in alternative formats like Braille or audio. > Up until now, no one has argued that this is illegal, but now the Authors > Guild says that it is. This is absolutely wrong. The blind and other > readers have the right for books to be presented to us in the format that > is most useful to us, and we are not violating copyright law as long as we > use readers, either human or machine, for private rather than public > listening. The key point is that reading aloud in private is the same > whether done by a person or a machine, and reading aloud in private is > never an infringement of copyright. > > "Amazon has taken a step in the right direction by including > text-to-speech technology for reading e-books aloud on its new Kindle 2," > Dr. Maurer continued. "We note, however, that the device itself cannot be > used independently by a blind reader because the controls to download a > book and begin reading it aloud are visual and therefore inaccessible to > the blind. We urge Amazon to rectify this situation as soon as possible in > order to make the Kindle 2 a device that truly can be used both by blind > and sighted readers. By doing so, Amazon will make it possible for blind > people to purchase a new book and begin reading it immediately, just as > sighted people do." > > > > ### > > > > About the National Federation of the Blind > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the > largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in > the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, > education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and > self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and > the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the > National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research > and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com > From stiehm.law at juno.com Fri Feb 13 14:13:21 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:13:21 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 Message-ID: <20090213.091321.4292.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> So the Authors Guild says that having a book read aloud by a machine in the privacy of one's home or vehicle is a copyright infringement. I'll bet they don't sue on it. In my opinion, they would loose and if they are well counseled, that know it. Although some will disagree, in my opinion this is nothing more than format shifting, which falls under Fair Use. We had a thread going on this issue for the last week or so, which forced me to do some research. I reached my conclusion based on the 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Cir. 1999), both of which concluded that format shifting for person use is Fair Use. The proposed contract restriction is far more insidious. A contract not to make these books available in audio format may in fact be enforceable as between the parties. However, if the Kindle 2 is capable of converting the text-to-speech how is the Authors Guild going to enforce the contract provision against third parties? The other problem they may have is if they insist on that provision, is that they may find they cannot sell their books in electronic text format which represents an economic loss that the individual authors may not be willing to accept. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 21:38:09 -0600 "Freeh, Jessica" (by way of David Andrews ) writes: > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > CONTACT: > Chris Danielsen > Director of Public Relations > National Federation of the Blind > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild > Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 > > Baltimore, Maryland (February 12, 2009): The National Federation of > > the Blind, the largest organization of blind people in the United > States, today responded to a statement put out by the Authors Guild > > advising its members to consider negotiating contracts prohibiting > e-books to be read aloud by the new Amazon Kindle 2, which > incorporates text-to-speech technology. The Authors Guild argues > that > the reading of a book out loud by a machine is a copyright > infringement unless the copyright holder has specifically granted > permission for the book to be read aloud. > > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, > > said: "The National Federation of the Blind supports all > technologies > that allow blind people to have better access to the printed word, > including the ability of devices like the Kindle 2 to read > commercial > e-books aloud using text-to-speech technology. Although the Authors > > Guild claims that it supports making books accessible to the blind, > > its position on the inclusion of text-to-speech technology in the > Kindle 2 is harmful to blind people. The Authors Guild says that > having a book read aloud by a machine in the privacy of one's home > or > vehicle is a copyright infringement. But blind people routinely use > > readers, either human or machine, to access books that are not > available in alternative formats like Braille or audio. Up until > now, > no one has argued that this is illegal, but now the Authors Guild > says that it is. This is absolutely wrong. The blind and other > readers have the right for books to be presented to us in the format > > that is most useful to us, and we are not violating copyright law as > > long as we use readers, either human or machine, for private rather > > than public listening. The key point is that reading aloud in > private > is the same whether done by a person or a machine, and reading aloud > > in private is never an infringement of copyright. > > "Amazon has taken a step in the right direction by including > text-to-speech technology for reading e-books aloud on its new > Kindle > 2," Dr. Maurer continued. "We note, however, that the device itself > > cannot be used independently by a blind reader because the controls > > to download a book and begin reading it aloud are visual and > therefore inaccessible to the blind. We urge Amazon to rectify this > > situation as soon as possible in order to make the Kindle 2 a device > > that truly can be used both by blind and sighted readers. By doing > so, Amazon will make it possible for blind people to purchase a new > > book and begin reading it immediately, just as sighted people do." > > > > ### > > > > About the National Federation of the Blind > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind > > is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind > > people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives > through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs > encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading > force > in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In > > January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind > Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the > United States for the blind led by the blind. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Become a religous scholar today. Click here for more information. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3gXOnp2Hrymr2sLgFT0ZwdekhI5atXK9v7kZkVwPWwNOw43/ From everett at zufelt.ca Fri Feb 13 15:58:52 2009 From: everett at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:58:52 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good morning, I think that is reasonable for an author to be able to treat the right to a printed version of their work separately than the rights to an audio version of their work. However, it is also reasonable that visually impaired readers, or any otherwise textually impaired readers, be able to access a copy of the work in an accessible format. I don't think that these two propositions are in conflict with each other. When I was in school publishers would send me digital copies of their texts, while my classmates had to work with printed versions. If I were to share the digital copy with a student who had purchased the printed version I would be violating copyright, as I was granted a license to use the digital copy myself, and not to share it with outhers. Everett On 13-Feb-09, at 9:54 AM, Locke Milholland wrote: > * Moving your lips while reading in front of someone who can read > lips is therefore a copyright violation. > * allowing someone to read over your shoulder is a copyright > violation. > *Sitting on the beach and reading with reflective mirrored > sunglasses is a copyright violation. > *remembering what you read, is a copyright violation, if over 100 > words and/or not properly cited. > > Future litigation: > Timex v. guy who answered when asked for the time. > Rand Mcnally v. guy who gave directions > MLB v. guy who told his friend the score without the expressed > written consent of Major League Baseball and its affiliates > > Common sense v. copyright holders. > Locke > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Freeh,Jessica (by way of David Andrews )" > > Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:38 PM > To: > Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to > Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 > >> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >> >> CONTACT: >> Chris Danielsen >> Director of Public Relations >> National Federation of the Blind >> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >> cdanielsen at nfb.org >> >> National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild >> Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 >> >> Baltimore, Maryland (February 12, 2009): The National Federation of >> the Blind, the largest organization of blind people in the United >> States, today responded to a statement put out by the Authors Guild >> advising its members to consider negotiating contracts prohibiting >> e-books to be read aloud by the new Amazon Kindle 2, which >> incorporates text-to-speech technology. The Authors Guild argues >> that the reading of a book out loud by a machine is a copyright >> infringement unless the copyright holder has specifically granted >> permission for the book to be read aloud. >> >> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, >> said: "The National Federation of the Blind supports all >> technologies that allow blind people to have better access to the >> printed word, including the ability of devices like the Kindle 2 to >> read commercial e-books aloud using text-to-speech technology. >> Although the Authors Guild claims that it supports making books >> accessible to the blind, its position on the inclusion of text-to- >> speech technology in the Kindle 2 is harmful to blind people. The >> Authors Guild says that having a book read aloud by a machine in >> the privacy of one's home or vehicle is a copyright infringement. >> But blind people routinely use readers, either human or machine, to >> access books that are not available in alternative formats like >> Braille or audio. Up until now, no one has argued that this is >> illegal, but now the Authors Guild says that it is. This is >> absolutely wrong. The blind and other readers have the right for >> books to be presented to us in the format that is most useful to >> us, and we are not violating copyright law as long as we use >> readers, either human or machine, for private rather than public >> listening. The key point is that reading aloud in private is the >> same whether done by a person or a machine, and reading aloud in >> private is never an infringement of copyright. >> >> "Amazon has taken a step in the right direction by including text- >> to-speech technology for reading e-books aloud on its new Kindle >> 2," Dr. Maurer continued. "We note, however, that the device itself >> cannot be used independently by a blind reader because the controls >> to download a book and begin reading it aloud are visual and >> therefore inaccessible to the blind. We urge Amazon to rectify this >> situation as soon as possible in order to make the Kindle 2 a >> device that truly can be used both by blind and sighted readers. By >> doing so, Amazon will make it possible for blind people to purchase >> a new book and begin reading it immediately, just as sighted people >> do." >> >> >> >> ### >> >> >> >> About the National Federation of the Blind >> >> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >> is the largest and most influential membership organization of >> blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's >> lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and >> programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the >> leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the >> nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National >> Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and >> training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zufelt.ca From steve.jacobson at visi.com Sat Feb 14 00:12:41 2009 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:12:41 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Where I think your logic breaks down a little is when texts are readily availlable for purchase in electronic format which is what I understand is the case with these Amazon books but are not accessible to us. There may come a day when a text-to-speech engine is as good as a human reader, but I have yet to see one that can really compete with commercially produced audio books. Perhaps the Author's Guild is thinking ahead to the day when that will happen and in that sense, I can understand their position. On the other hand, there is a practical side of all this that is not being considered. Is it right to allow the print to be made easier to read through an electronic device that can enhance the contrast or enlarge the print but not to speak it, or is the Author's Guild contending that to alter the pring in any way is a violation of their copyright? Certainly I can see some of the concerns of the Author's Guild, but I also see their position as not being in touch with reality in some ways as well. If someone marked up the text to force characters to be spoken in different voices, for example, I could better understand their objection. The best approach, to me, though, is to try to work toward a reasoned solution that takes into account the fact that there are some fuzzy lines, and that they should be worrying about the more obvious lines. Why not try to work out a standard that limits the quality of the text-to-speech voices used, for example. For us, the problem is simply that if we could get access to a book using technology that is aimed, at least sort of, at the mainstream, we'll get it faster and more quickly. We will also be more likely to pay for the book. We also have the current move toward the provision of college textbooks to all students, and this would reduce the enthusiasm that might otherwise be displayed to make such books accessible using the software required to read the books. Publishers have been helpful in getting us electronic copies of textbooks, but I would not say that they have always bent over backwards to do it, and I suspect that the passage and threat of passage of certain laws has probably forced some degree of cooperation. In short, I do understand the concern that author's might have, but I also feel this is the typical response that is always looking back instead of ahead. After all, music on cassettes meant the end of commercial music, and we should have stayed with records. The line between print and text-to-speech has long been growing finer with text-to-speech being added to software for the benefit of sighted persons as well as the blind. It is a part of Adobe Acrobat, Microsoft Office, and OmniPage just for text reading and not specifically for accessibility. These rendoring are not the same as a commercial audio recording read by someone who usually has a professional acting background. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:58:52 -0400, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >Good morning, >I think that is reasonable for an author to be able to treat the right >to a printed version of their work separately than the rights to an >audio version of their work. However, it is also reasonable that >visually impaired readers, or any otherwise textually impaired >readers, be able to access a copy of the work in an accessible format. >I don't think that these two propositions are in conflict with each >other. When I was in school publishers would send me digital copies >of their texts, while my classmates had to work with printed >versions. If I were to share the digital copy with a student who had >purchased the printed version I would be violating copyright, as I was >granted a license to use the digital copy myself, and not to share it >with outhers. >Everett >On 13-Feb-09, at 9:54 AM, Locke Milholland wrote: >> * Moving your lips while reading in front of someone who can read >> lips is therefore a copyright violation. >> * allowing someone to read over your shoulder is a copyright >> violation. >> *Sitting on the beach and reading with reflective mirrored >> sunglasses is a copyright violation. >> *remembering what you read, is a copyright violation, if over 100 >> words and/or not properly cited. >> >> Future litigation: >> Timex v. guy who answered when asked for the time. >> Rand Mcnally v. guy who gave directions >> MLB v. guy who told his friend the score without the expressed >> written consent of Major League Baseball and its affiliates >> >> Common sense v. copyright holders. >> Locke >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Freeh,Jessica (by way of David Andrews )" > > >> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:38 PM >> To: >> Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to >> Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild >>> Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 12, 2009): The National Federation of >>> the Blind, the largest organization of blind people in the United >>> States, today responded to a statement put out by the Authors Guild >>> advising its members to consider negotiating contracts prohibiting >>> e-books to be read aloud by the new Amazon Kindle 2, which >>> incorporates text-to-speech technology. The Authors Guild argues >>> that the reading of a book out loud by a machine is a copyright >>> infringement unless the copyright holder has specifically granted >>> permission for the book to be read aloud. >>> >>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, >>> said: "The National Federation of the Blind supports all >>> technologies that allow blind people to have better access to the >>> printed word, including the ability of devices like the Kindle 2 to >>> read commercial e-books aloud using text-to-speech technology. >>> Although the Authors Guild claims that it supports making books >>> accessible to the blind, its position on the inclusion of text-to- >>> speech technology in the Kindle 2 is harmful to blind people. The >>> Authors Guild says that having a book read aloud by a machine in >>> the privacy of one's home or vehicle is a copyright infringement. >>> But blind people routinely use readers, either human or machine, to >>> access books that are not available in alternative formats like >>> Braille or audio. Up until now, no one has argued that this is >>> illegal, but now the Authors Guild says that it is. This is >>> absolutely wrong. The blind and other readers have the right for >>> books to be presented to us in the format that is most useful to >>> us, and we are not violating copyright law as long as we use >>> readers, either human or machine, for private rather than public >>> listening. The key point is that reading aloud in private is the >>> same whether done by a person or a machine, and reading aloud in >>> private is never an infringement of copyright. >>> >>> "Amazon has taken a step in the right direction by including text- >>> to-speech technology for reading e-books aloud on its new Kindle >>> 2," Dr. Maurer continued. "We note, however, that the device itself >>> cannot be used independently by a blind reader because the controls >>> to download a book and begin reading it aloud are visual and >>> therefore inaccessible to the blind. We urge Amazon to rectify this >>> situation as soon as possible in order to make the Kindle 2 a >>> device that truly can be used both by blind and sighted readers. By >>> doing so, Amazon will make it possible for blind people to purchase >>> a new book and begin reading it immediately, just as sighted people >>> do." >>> >>> >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>> is the largest and most influential membership organization of >>> blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's >>> lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and >>> programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the >>> leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the >>> nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National >>> Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and >>> training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zufelt.ca >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From cdanielsen8 at aol.com Sat Feb 14 13:02:34 2009 From: cdanielsen8 at aol.com (Chris Danielsen) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 08:02:34 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to AuthorsGuild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What's at issue here is the definition of "an audio version of their work." I think you're absolutely right that an author has the right to control whether his work will be read by a voice actor and sold to the public, or whether it will be dramatized as a radio play. However, text-to-speech software reading an electronic text aloud isn't a separate or derivative work; it's merely a format shift. Now, if I generate a text-to-speech version of a book, convert it to an MP3 file, and sell it to my friends, then I've violated the author's copyright. But if I read that text-to-speech version in the privacy of my own home, I haven't. The Authors Guild is trying to say that reading aloud, when done by a machine, is somehow different from reading aloud when done, say, by a parent to his kids. In my opinion that's a distinction without a difference. Now, if that same parent invites the neighbors' kids over and charges their parents for the privilege of hearing him read a story, then you have a copyright violation, but not when he simply reads the story aloud in his home. And I think you're right that even if the authors could technically win on the audio version argument, the use of the text in a different format by a blind person would still be aprotected fair use. But I see that as a fallback argument, in case some court rules with the Authors Guild on the first issue. Patrick's argument relying on the betamax decision is I think the best analogy. If I remember right, the Betamax decision had to do with VCR's, and movie makers argued among other things that a person could generate illegal copies of a work using that technology. But the fact that a technology *can* be used for illegal purposes doesn't mean that all purposes for which it can be used are illegal. With VCR's, watching a video tape of a program in your own home was ruled to be legal; selling that video tape to someone else would have been illegal. But the studios were not allowed by the courts to take away the fair use rights of viewers simply because some people might abuse those rights. Authors and publishers want us to stick to the old model where a book has to be produced in a specialized format to be used by the blind. That model has served us reasonably well, but with today's technology there's simply no reason for it to be the *only* model. Ultimately, I want to be able to buy a brand new book from Amazon and read it right away, just like everyone else does. Whether I read it in Braille, via text-to-speech, or by some other means is not relevant to the discussion, as long as all I'm doing is reading the work for my own personal pleasure or edification. Authors and publishers want to slice the pie of rights as thinly as possible so that they can sell the same work more than once. They're afraid that text-to-speech will kill their ability to sell audio books. I don't think this is true. There are many times when a novel has been available both on Bookshare and on Audible and I've decided to buy the audio book because I prefer that fiction be read by a human reader; I'm not as picky about nonfiction. So I thik there's room for both formats. Chris -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:59 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to AuthorsGuild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 Good morning, I think that is reasonable for an author to be able to treat the right to a printed version of their work separately than the rights to an audio version of their work. However, it is also reasonable that visually impaired readers, or any otherwise textually impaired readers, be able to access a copy of the work in an accessible format. I don't think that these two propositions are in conflict with each other. When I was in school publishers would send me digital copies of their texts, while my classmates had to work with printed versions. If I were to share the digital copy with a student who had purchased the printed version I would be violating copyright, as I was granted a license to use the digital copy myself, and not to share it with outhers. Everett On 13-Feb-09, at 9:54 AM, Locke Milholland wrote: > * Moving your lips while reading in front of someone who can read lips > is therefore a copyright violation. > * allowing someone to read over your shoulder is a copyright > violation. > *Sitting on the beach and reading with reflective mirrored sunglasses > is a copyright violation. > *remembering what you read, is a copyright violation, if over 100 > words and/or not properly cited. > > Future litigation: > Timex v. guy who answered when asked for the time. > Rand Mcnally v. guy who gave directions MLB v. guy who told his friend > the score without the expressed written consent of Major League > Baseball and its affiliates > > Common sense v. copyright holders. > Locke > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Freeh,Jessica (by way of David Andrews )" > > > Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:38 PM > To: > Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to > Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 > >> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >> >> CONTACT: >> Chris Danielsen >> Director of Public Relations >> National Federation of the Blind >> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >> cdanielsen at nfb.org >> >> National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement >> on the Amazon Kindle 2 >> >> Baltimore, Maryland (February 12, 2009): The National Federation of >> the Blind, the largest organization of blind people in the United >> States, today responded to a statement put out by the Authors Guild >> advising its members to consider negotiating contracts prohibiting >> e-books to be read aloud by the new Amazon Kindle 2, which >> incorporates text-to-speech technology. The Authors Guild argues that >> the reading of a book out loud by a machine is a copyright >> infringement unless the copyright holder has specifically granted >> permission for the book to be read aloud. >> >> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, >> said: "The National Federation of the Blind supports all technologies >> that allow blind people to have better access to the printed word, >> including the ability of devices like the Kindle 2 to read commercial >> e-books aloud using text-to-speech technology. >> Although the Authors Guild claims that it supports making books >> accessible to the blind, its position on the inclusion of text-to- >> speech technology in the Kindle 2 is harmful to blind people. The >> Authors Guild says that having a book read aloud by a machine in the >> privacy of one's home or vehicle is a copyright infringement. >> But blind people routinely use readers, either human or machine, to >> access books that are not available in alternative formats like >> Braille or audio. Up until now, no one has argued that this is >> illegal, but now the Authors Guild says that it is. This is >> absolutely wrong. The blind and other readers have the right for >> books to be presented to us in the format that is most useful to us, >> and we are not violating copyright law as long as we use readers, >> either human or machine, for private rather than public listening. >> The key point is that reading aloud in private is the same whether >> done by a person or a machine, and reading aloud in private is never >> an infringement of copyright. >> >> "Amazon has taken a step in the right direction by including text- >> to-speech technology for reading e-books aloud on its new Kindle 2," >> Dr. Maurer continued. "We note, however, that the device itself >> cannot be used independently by a blind reader because the controls >> to download a book and begin reading it aloud are visual and >> therefore inaccessible to the blind. We urge Amazon to rectify this >> situation as soon as possible in order to make the Kindle 2 a device >> that truly can be used both by blind and sighted readers. By doing >> so, Amazon will make it possible for blind people to purchase a new >> book and begin reading it immediately, just as sighted people do." >> >> >> >> ### >> >> >> >> About the National Federation of the Blind >> >> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >> is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force >> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In >> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >> United States for the blind led by the blind. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland >> %40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu > felt.ca _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3850 (20090213) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 15 08:05:37 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:05:37 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] personal stories needwed Message-ID: <651384D496BC4740A58ADDC7508A4614@spike> This is off topic but I'm forwarding from another list. Chuck ____________________________________ Subj: personal stories Please pass the word via list serves and your organization websites, etc. that I am looking for any person with a disability that has gone back to work or been rehired as a result of the economic recovery plan. For example, some company starts hiring again as a result of money they are going to receive or something like that. The sooner, the better if anyone exists. I simply don't have good access to all my contact lists so I need you all to expand my reach into the various communities. This is important and time sensitive. Might as well get use to hearing that over the next 4 years, but the community needs to be organized and ready to respond to things like this to help me facilitate full inclusion. Kareem Dale _kareemdale at sbcglobal.net From k7uij at panix.com Sun Feb 15 22:20:00 2009 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 14:20:00 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment References: Message-ID: <4B56081762904630A5F792A38C4FB849@owner96190708e> With respect, I disagree. Politicians know when organizations set up "action mills" to generate emails. What really matters to politicians is when they receive emails from persons in their specific districts and when the emails obviously have been personally composed by those doing the sending rather than as a form letter. There's no substitute for a bit of elbow grease. Mike Freeman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >legislative >action center where members and supporters could send emails or faxes >to >legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up I attempted >to >contact the offices of > Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. > As > my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have > time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when > legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to > prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an > organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the > organization is showing appreciation of the members continued > involvement > and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the > BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation >> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and >> most >> are >> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >> what >> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where >> the >> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason >> that >> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that >> we >> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway >> is >> like >> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >> mignon >> you will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like >> the >> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >> curious >> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >> American's >> are >> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way >> it is >> likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be >> replaced >> with >> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >> isn't >> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB >> press >> release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President >>> of >>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The >>> purpose >>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently >>> being >>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the >>> training >>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>> is >>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading >>> force >>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. >>> In >>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 16 04:32:25 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 20:32:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation oftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <4B56081762904630A5F792A38C4FB849@owner96190708e> References: <4B56081762904630A5F792A38C4FB849@owner96190708e> Message-ID: Mike, if we lived in a perfect world you would be right. however, this type of approach is what is expected of advocacy organizations today. Legislative staff primarily tally the pro and con responses to a piece of legislation and let the legislator know. It is highly unlikely that the legislator will actually read a handwritten letter or personalized email from a constituent regarding an issue. In addition to being a paralegal I have also spent quite a bit of time as a political consultant and organizations if they are effective need to stay on top of cutting edge technology such as this. I personally receive such requests to submit personal emails or letters to legislators and due to my time constraints they generally get deleted without a response. I also feel that when an organization requests such a response and they don't make it easy they are undermining and disrespecting the value of my time. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation oftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment With respect, I disagree. Politicians know when organizations set up "action mills" to generate emails. What really matters to politicians is when they receive emails from persons in their specific districts and when the emails obviously have been personally composed by those doing the sending rather than as a form letter. There's no substitute for a bit of elbow grease. Mike Freeman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >legislative >action center where members and supporters could send emails or faxes >to >legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up I attempted >to >contact the offices of > Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. > As > my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have > time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when > legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to > prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an > organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the > organization is showing appreciation of the members continued > involvement > and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the > BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation >> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and >> most >> are >> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >> what >> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where >> the >> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason >> that >> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that >> we >> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway >> is >> like >> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >> mignon >> you will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like >> the >> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >> curious >> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >> American's >> are >> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way >> it is >> likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be >> replaced >> with >> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >> isn't >> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB >> press >> release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President >>> of >>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The >>> purpose >>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently >>> being >>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the >>> training >>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>> is >>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading >>> force >>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. >>> In >>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Mon Feb 16 17:00:24 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:00:24 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation oftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment References: <4B56081762904630A5F792A38C4FB849@owner96190708e> Message-ID: Michael, I don't disagree with you either. However, I know for a fact that the number of emails, faxes, phone calls, etc, do make their impression. My point is simply that the more arrows we have in the quiver, the better off we are. If the cost of generating another avenue through which our members can get messages to DC is not prohibitive, we ought to do it. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation oftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment With respect, I disagree. Politicians know when organizations set up "action mills" to generate emails. What really matters to politicians is when they receive emails from persons in their specific districts and when the emails obviously have been personally composed by those doing the sending rather than as a form letter. There's no substitute for a bit of elbow grease. Mike Freeman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >legislative >action center where members and supporters could send emails or faxes >to >legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up I attempted >to >contact the offices of > Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. > As > my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have > time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when > legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to > prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an > organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the > organization is showing appreciation of the members continued > involvement > and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the > BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation >> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and >> most >> are >> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >> what >> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where >> the >> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason >> that >> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that >> we >> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway >> is >> like >> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >> mignon >> you will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like >> the >> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >> curious >> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >> American's >> are >> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way >> it is >> likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be >> replaced >> with >> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >> isn't >> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB >> press >> release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President >>> of >>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The >>> purpose >>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently >>> being >>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the >>> training >>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>> is >>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading >>> force >>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. >>> In >>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com From bnaccari at cox.net Mon Feb 16 22:18:06 2009 From: bnaccari at cox.net (Bruce E. Naccari) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:18:06 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Setting up an automated NFB email advocacy service with action alerts Message-ID: <20090216171806.SQBCM.572877.imail@eastrmwml10> Most organizations that offer members an easy service on their website for sending advocacy or opposition emails to representatives or other officials use software that permits personalization and editing of the offered form or model message. However unless a staffer calls a particular email to the attention of a public official on the federal level a particular email –which probably never happens except in the case of an email with extraordinary information not otherwise known or an eamail from a VIP, a person very important to that official such as a local elected official , party leader, major organization leader or contributor, most emails will never be seen by the elected official or other high official. As with letters from most writers all the Congresspersons or others will likely get is a tally of total emails categorized according to time period and position taken. Any Congressperson who read all her emails and mail herself would be able to do nothing else. Therefore I think such automated systems that make it very easy with one click to send an email are indeed useful for generating high pro or con tallies. The best systems allow one simply after pre-registration to send all subsequent emails by entering one’ semail address and clicking send; the other information about the sender is included automaticallly in the message. That is my opinion and experience in emailing/writing/calling federal, state executive and Congressional officers. In the case of local government or small agencies and also state representatives in smaller states however an individual who is not a “VIP” can often expect personal attention from the targeted officer and should avoid form emails or letters. From qmsingleton at comcast.net Tue Feb 17 10:44:07 2009 From: qmsingleton at comcast.net (Quintina M. Singleton) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 04:44:07 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Thruoureyes with Joe Ruffalo Announcement, Jim McCarthy Interview Message-ID: The next "Thruoureyes with Joe Ruffalo" live internet radio show is scheduled for February 18, 2009 at 8:00 PM EST. Mr. Ruffalo will be interviewing director of governmental affairs for the National Federation of the Blind, James McCarthy. A brief summary of this year's Washington Seminar, what listeners could be doing to assist in legislative initiatives presently, and advisement concerning how to stay informed with legislative issues year round are topics that will be discussed on the evening's show. I invite you to visit www.thruoureyes.org or to hear the program live via telephone dial 201 793 9022 with the access code: 2400484. From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 18 00:04:57 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:04:57 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] FCC seeks comments regarding delivery of videoprogramming Message-ID: <15FC4A9BD8D5447CB36551CD2DF7FC06@spike> this may be of interest. Chuck The following information is sent as a public service by AudioVision. We hope you can share this information with those who have diminished vision. The Federal Communications Commission is asking for your comments for their Annual Assessment of the Status of Competition in the Market for the Delivery of Video Programming (http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2009/02/11/3981295.htm). This might be something that description consumers are interested in (especially in light of some of the recent discussions about description availability or lack thereof), and description is addressed specifically in number 17 on the list of comment requests by the FCC: "We also invite comment to provide information on access to programming by persons with disabilities. We seek comment on what, if any, concerns industry and the public have with meeting these increased captioning requirements for new Spanish language and "pre-rule" English language programming. We also seek information on the level and quality of captioning for non-English language programming. We seek information on the quality, accuracy, placement, technology, and any instances of missing or delayed captions, and the amount of digital programming that contains closed captions translated from analog closed captions. We seek comment on the extent to which digital programming may not be captioned and ask why this is the case. We seek information on the availability of video description services, currently provided by programmers on a voluntary basis and the amount and types of video programming that includes video descriptions and whether MVPDs generally carry video descriptions inserted by programmers" Please note that the deadline for submitting comments is February 27th. Contact info for the Federal Communications Commission is below: E-MAIL Commissioner Michael J. Copps: Michael.Copps at fcc.gov Commissioner Jonathan S. Adelstein: Jonathan.Adelstein at fcc.gov Commissioner Robert McDowell: Robert.McDowell at fcc.gov PHONE 1-888-225-5322 Voice: toll-free 1-888-835-5322 TTY: toll-free MAIL Federal Communications Commission 445 12th Street, SW Washington, DC 20554 John Harris AudioVision 1-866-297-7623 Movies and TV for those who can't see. From dandrews at visi.com Wed Feb 18 19:22:24 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:22:24 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Through Our Eyes Radio Program Interview Change Message-ID: We previously announced that Joe Ruffalo of Through Our Eyes Radio would be interviewing NFB's Legislative Director Jim McCarthy on Wednesday February 18th. Unfortunately, due to technical malfunctions it is necessary to reschedule this interview. We will place an appropriate announcement on NFBNET.ORG lists when we know when the rescheduled interview will take place. We and Through Our Eyes Radio apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause you. David Andrews David Andrews and white cane Harry. From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Feb 19 15:27:14 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 08:27:14 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Message-ID: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. From ericholm at att.net Thu Feb 19 19:43:19 2009 From: ericholm at att.net (ericholm at att.net) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:43:19 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC In-Reply-To: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> Message-ID: <002401c992ca$51207320$f3615960$@net> Great job Scott, keep up the good fight. Thanks, Eric Eric Holm, J.D. ericholm at att.net -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 7:27 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ericholm%40att.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3868 (20090219) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3868 (20090219) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Thu Feb 19 20:35:37 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:35:37 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Target Class Action Lawsuit In-Reply-To: <002401c992ca$51207320$f3615960$@net> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <002401c992ca$51207320$f3615960$@net> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B27D@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Hi Folks, I was wondering what is going on with the Target Class action case in California? The web site says nothing about what happened at the court hearing that I recall was set for sometime in late January. So is there any sort of update available? Sincerely, Tim Ford From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Feb 19 21:32:54 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:32:54 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint Message-ID: Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California Court. ************** LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) Disability Rights Advocates 2001 Center Street, Third Floor Berkeley, California 94704 Telephone: (510) 665-8644 Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 TTY: (510) 665-8716 SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 Denver, Colo 80222 Telephone: (303) 504-5979 Fax: (303) 757-3640 DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 Baltimore, MD 21202 Telephone: (410) 962-1030 Fax: (410) 385-0869 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA COUNTY OF ALAMEDA National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the Blind of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, Plaintiffs, v. LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., Defendant. Case No.: COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF THE CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT INTRODUCTION Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, seeks to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law School Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to take the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind law school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal access to the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, advantages and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test preparation materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers that make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and LSAT test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities, and privileges of lsac.org. JURISDICTION 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons Act (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and California Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates its website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. VENUE 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the acts alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights of patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons in Alameda County. 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and practice materials. PARTIES 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter "NFB") is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico. The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind persons. The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive agencies of government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on behalf of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to promote the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their efforts to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) removing barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created by blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have long been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, so that blind persons can live and work independently in today's technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United States, including the state of California, and many of its members would use the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by the blind. 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation and carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its headquarters in Fremont, California, in Alameda County. 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school admissions process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided by LSAC in California through lsac.org. FACTS 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. Lsac.org is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive services for applying to law school. The website functions as the official destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, lsac.org offers information about the LSAT and law school application process, and extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also serves as the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to ABA-accredited law schools. 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable prospective law students to do the following, among other things: a.. Register for the LSAT b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law schools e.. Apply online to law schools f.. Register for law school forums g.. Have 24-hour file access 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and the opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits and advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. Goraya, have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently apply to law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org. 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction with screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a refreshable Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind persons are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, products and services contained therein. 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at least several years and have been followed successfully by other public accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web Consortium, which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines have long been readily available via the internet so that any public accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent free and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading software. These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow users to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize the requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online law school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack these fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to the website cannot independently use those and other critical features. 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on the website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly "tagged." This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions and form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As a result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind visitor to navigate. 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, available as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than 40 formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer the opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible to the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary hurdles to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared to their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select and rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of the website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. Lsac.org thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access to Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and facilities of lsac.org. 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the Blind notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. LSAC responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are incorporated by reference. 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals with disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the general public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other places to which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, is an accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general public is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to blind people in an accessible format. SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are incorporated by reference. 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC and lsac.org. 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the rights of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or obvious that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to blind people in an accessible format. THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are incorporated by reference. 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this time in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and duties and act accordingly. WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. RELIEF REQUESTED WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining and/or operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required by law; 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs as authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil Procedure § 1021.5. 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems just and proper. DATED: DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES By: ____________________________ Laurence W. Paradis Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: clip_image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1054 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Thu Feb 19 21:36:51 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:36:51 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC In-Reply-To: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> Message-ID: <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you or the NFB plan to take in these matters? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1960 - Release Date: 02/19/09 10:48:00 From roddj12 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 19 22:04:29 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:04:29 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint References: Message-ID: Scott: Thanks for your work on these issues. Whenever we are venturing in Pennsylvania again, as we did in federal court in 97, I am willing to help out. By then I should already pass the bar and be admitted. This nonsense has to stop; this is the year 2009. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:32 PM Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Feb 19 22:15:26 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:15:26 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> Message-ID: <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> I know that we have been working on a number of projects to increase access to websites that use systems like you suggest. Often times, such access barriers are tied up with others. I would suggest that you contact our access technology department, consult the Braille Monitor, review the monthly Presidential releases, visit our website, for more answers. We are aware of many problems with access issues. However, it is very aken to answering the question of how one eats an elephant. It's one bite at a time. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you or the NFB plan to take in these matters? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1960 - Release Date: 02/19/09 10:48:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 19 22:19:52 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:19:52 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC In-Reply-To: <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> Message-ID: This is a good question that needs to be addressed. Although there has been a partial solution that has been developed for people who use Firefox Internet browser. An add on called Webvisum has beern developed that will read some of the captcha format that is used in some of these sites. While it is not flawless it helps to rectify the problem. information can be obtained at http//www.webvisum.com. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you or the NFB plan to take in these matters? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1960 - Release Date: 02/19/09 10:48:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From JWilson at nfb.org Thu Feb 19 22:24:43 2009 From: JWilson at nfb.org (Wilson, Joanne) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:24:43 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate Message-ID: ---------- From: Brammer, Robert [AG] [mailto:rbrammer at ag.state.ia.us] Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:53 PM To: Brammer, Robert [AG] Subject: Atty. Gen. release: Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate To News Editors. From Bob Brammer (Iowa Attorney General’s Office – 515-281-6699.) Please find a release pasted below. This will be posted soon at www.IowaAttorneyGeneral.org . A jury entered a verdict Wednesday in this case in Polk County District Court. Best regards, Bram ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- For immediate release – Thursday, February 19, 2009. Contact Bob Brammer – 515-281-6699 Jury finds Iowa Department for the Blind’s Guide Dog Policy Does Not Discriminate Des Moines. A Polk County jury has rejected a Des Moines woman’s claim that the State of Iowa Department for the Blind discriminated against her by refusing her request to use a guide dog while she attended the Department’s orientation and adjustment training program. The Department for the Blind orientation and training program is a comprehensive program that utilizes a totally non-visual approach to teaching blindness skills. Students with partial vision are required to wear eyeshades to prevent reliance upon any visual cues during training. Department policies prohibit the use of any visual aids within the orientation and training program, including guide dogs. The Department has no objection to guide dogs in other situations. Stephanie Dohmen, who is legally blind, attended the program for several months beginning in September 2000 and sought to re-enter the program in June 2002 accompanied by her guide dog. Dohmen claimed in her lawsuit that the Department’s policy violated her rights under the Iowa Civil Rights Act and under federal laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of disability. After a six-day trial, the eight-person jury rejected Dohmen’s claims in a verdict entered Wednesday. The Department for the Blind, which was represented in the trial by the Iowa Attorney General’s Office, argued that a totally non-visual approach – and training without assistance of a guide-dog or other visual aids – is the most effective approach for visually-impaired persons who are learning skills and techniques for dealing with blindness. The Department places no limitations upon the use of guide dogs in other settings, including in the Department for the Blind building in downtown Des Moines. For example, Karen Keninger, the Director of the Department, uses a guide dog, and the dog accompanied Keninger during her testimony at the trial. The orientation program typically includes about six months of full-time training in various problem-solving skills, such as cane-travel on public streets, using Braille, using computers, and dealing with many other situations. The Department for the Blind’s orientation and adjustment program was established in 1959 and is considered by many to be one of the most effective in the country. During the trial, the State Department for the Blind presented testimony from Joanne Wilson and Frederic K. Schroeder, each a former Commissioner of the U.S. Rehabilitation Services Administration, which oversees programs for the blind around the country. “Iowa’s orientation program profoundly changes lives,” said Wilson, who also is Executive Director of the National Federation of the Blind. “It works. It’s a cutting-edge program and a model for other states.” Wilson is a Webster City native and ISU graduate who went through the Iowa Department for the Blind’s orientation program herself. Schroeder said: “To me the central point is that individuals have a choice in the type of training they take. While programs must and should make reasonable accommodations, they cannot be required to alter the fundamentals of the program.” - 30 - From mikefry79 at gmail.com Thu Feb 19 22:42:33 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:42:33 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902191442u47023b47mdc67643350d1cc4a@mail.gmail.com> Kudo's Mr. LaBarre. I didn't know you were tight with DRA. Needless to say I hope it's a winner. I'm looking forward to hearing you speak in June at the ABA Confrence in DC. Mike u, Feb 19, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California Court. > ************** > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > Disability Rights Advocates > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the Blind > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > Plaintiffs, > > v. > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > Defendant. > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF THE > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, seeks > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law School > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to take > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind law > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal access to > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, advantages > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test preparation > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers that > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and LSAT > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities, > and privileges of lsac.org. > > JURISDICTION > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons Act > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. Civ. > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and California > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates its > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > VENUE > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the acts > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights of > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons in > Alameda County. > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and practice > materials. > > PARTIES > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter "NFB") > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico. > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind persons. > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive agencies of > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on behalf > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to promote > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their efforts > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) removing > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created by > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have long > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, so > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > States, including the state of California, and many of its members would use > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by > the blind. > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation and > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its headquarters in > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to the > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school admissions > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided by > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > FACTS > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. Lsac.org > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive services > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application process, and > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also serves as > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to > ABA-accredited law schools. > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > a.. Register for the LSAT > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > schools > e.. Apply online to law schools > f.. Register for law school forums > g.. Have 24-hour file access > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and the > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits and > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. Goraya, > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently apply to > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org. > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction with > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a refreshable > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind persons > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > products and services contained therein. > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at least > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web Consortium, > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent free > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading software. > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow users > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize the > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online law > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack these > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to the > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on the > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly "tagged." > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions and > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As a > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind > visitor to navigate. > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, available > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than 40 > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer the > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible to > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary hurdles > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared to > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select and > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of the > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. Lsac.org > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access to > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and > facilities of lsac.org. > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the Blind > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. LSAC > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals with > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the general > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other places to > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, is > an > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general public > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal access > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to > blind people in an accessible format. > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and equal > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC and > lsac.org. > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the rights > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or obvious > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this time > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and > duties and act accordingly. > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining and/or > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required by > law; > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs as > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., California > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > Procedure § 1021.5. > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems just > and proper. > > > > DATED: > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > By: > ____________________________ > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > > From angie at mpmail.net Thu Feb 19 23:56:25 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:56:25 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Would someone please explain this nonstandard use of the term "visual aid" to me? My dog is not a powerpoint presentation. Thanks, Angie From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Thu Feb 19 23:57:38 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:57:38 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable system video recorders used by all those companies. The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you have done. Sincerely, Tim Ford From mhanson at winternet.com Fri Feb 20 00:23:03 2009 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:23:03 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policydoes not discriminate References: <200902192352.n1JNpxr4028462@janus2.bpsi.net> Message-ID: <45DBA70152D1478A806A0C686733A8F9@hp048378e4c43a> Good question. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policydoes not discriminate > Would someone please explain this nonstandard use of the term "visual aid" > to me? My dog is not a powerpoint presentation. > > Thanks, > > Angie > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Fri Feb 20 00:54:43 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:54:43 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC In-Reply-To: <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> Message-ID: <8BC8E38398994BDFA21D1E6D6D5078AD@StevePC> Thank you! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I know that we have been working on a number of projects to increase access to websites that use systems like you suggest. Often times, such access barriers are tied up with others. I would suggest that you contact our access technology department, consult the Braille Monitor, review the monthly Presidential releases, visit our website, for more answers. We are aware of many problems with access issues. However, it is very aken to answering the question of how one eats an elephant. It's one bite at a time. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you or the NFB plan to take in these matters? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1960 - Release Date: 02/19/09 10:48:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1961 - Release Date: 02/19/09 18:45:00 From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Fri Feb 20 00:55:27 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:55:27 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC In-Reply-To: References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> Message-ID: <5D951DFDAA934C9C8E57EE876A26B07C@StevePC> Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC This is a good question that needs to be addressed. Although there has been a partial solution that has been developed for people who use Firefox Internet browser. An add on called Webvisum has beern developed that will read some of the captcha format that is used in some of these sites. While it is not flawless it helps to rectify the problem. information can be obtained at http//www.webvisum.com. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you or the NFB plan to take in these matters? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1960 - Release Date: 02/19/09 10:48:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1961 - Release Date: 02/19/09 18:45:00 From jbar at barcore.com Fri Feb 20 00:55:39 2009 From: jbar at barcore.com (Jim Barbour) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:55:39 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: <20090220005538.GB23939@barcore.com> I'm curious, what would be the legal basis be for a suit against Dish, comcast, Direct TV, etc? Jim On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 03:57:38PM -0800, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com From lmilholland at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 01:02:41 2009 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:02:41 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: I have an old VCR, made by Zenith, that speaks every function. It is the only VCR I have had where I could set it to record in the future, and set up the options after the power went out. The difference is the data never changed. With Disha nd Direct TV, Tivo and other DVR systems is the continually changing data. That would require more effort, but definitely possible. Locke -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com > From rjs59 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 01:27:46 2009 From: rjs59 at hotmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:27:46 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> Message-ID: Scott, Couldn't the other Side say that Blind people have been attending law school for years, and haven't had any problems? If I were a juror, who knew nothing about blindness I'd probley be asking this question. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I know that we have been working on a number of projects to increase access to websites that use systems like you suggest. Often times, such access barriers are tied up with others. I would suggest that you contact our access technology department, consult the Braille Monitor, review the monthly Presidential releases, visit our website, for more answers. We are aware of many problems with access issues. However, it is very aken to answering the question of how one eats an elephant. It's one bite at a time. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you or the NFB plan to take in these matters? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1960 - Release Date: 02/19/09 10:48:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjs59%40hotmail.com From roddj12 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 02:11:06 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:11:06 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 20 05:33:50 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:33:50 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: <99DA7EA9B3B44B2B893F5D98375FE5F3@spike> This applies to most advanced digital satellite or cable systems. I know that with Comcast everything is done with touch screen choices that are impossible for a blind person to use. Apparently Comcast has no solution for this problem nor will they until they like other cable and satellite television providers are made to come up with one. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 3:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 07:12:45 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:12:45 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC In-Reply-To: <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> Message-ID: <20090220071245.GC91686@yumi.bluecherry.net> Respectfully, it might make more sense to try to build up some precedent BEFORE trying to go after the whole internet. Joseph On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 04:36:51PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the > web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen > prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing > merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are > not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site > is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you > or the NFB plan to take in these matters? > > > Steve From AZNOR99 at aol.com Fri Feb 20 12:05:51 2009 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 07:05:51 EST Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes Message-ID: I was at a seminar a few weeks ago, and Dr. Maurer specifically mentioned the lack of accessibility of televisions, cable, and satelite services. Thus, the NFB is aware of the problem and is exploring the best manner in which to resolve it for blind people. If you care strongly about this issue, I suggest you call the National Center or Scott and discuss it with Dr. Maurer or Scott. My experience is they are both very responsive. Ronza In a message dated 2/19/2009 10:28:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, roddj12 at hotmail.com writes: If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) From AZNOR99 at aol.com Fri Feb 20 12:10:28 2009 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 07:10:28 EST Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Message-ID: Try kaptchakiller.com. It is pretty good. Ronza In a message dated 2/20/2009 3:23:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: Respectfully, it might make more sense to try to build up some precedent BEFORE trying to go after the whole internet. Joseph On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 04:36:51PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the > web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen > prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing > merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are > not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site > is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you > or the NFB plan to take in these matters? > > > Steve _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) From rjaquiss at earthlink.net Fri Feb 20 13:13:13 2009 From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 07:13:13 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes References: <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <20090220005538.GB23939@barcore.com> Message-ID: <60490511C85B4224AB885740D6A78F59@D3DTZP41> Hello Jim and List: On a DISH receiver, it is possible to order Pay For View movies. Would this fact make a DISH receiver a place of business? Also audio described content is not available or at least I haven't been able to get it. Regards, Robert Jaquiss, Member Committee on Research and DEvelopment National Federation of the Blind Email: rjaquiss at earthlink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Barbour" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > I'm curious, what would be the legal basis be for a suit against Dish, > comcast, Direct TV, etc? > > Jim > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 03:57:38PM -0800, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: >> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete >> lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? >> I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable >> system video recorders used by all those companies. >> >> The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating >> system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a >> button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task >> to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is >> a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH >> Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate >> their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. >> >> Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it >> involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary >> depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even >> with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you >> have done. >> >> Sincerely, >> Tim Ford >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net From rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 14:37:43 2009 From: rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 06:37:43 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A81EAA6A818464291283D8BB0E96405@RJT> A possible option--a global approach to the accessibility of consumer products by comprehensive legislation. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:06 AM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes I was at a seminar a few weeks ago, and Dr. Maurer specifically mentioned the lack of accessibility of televisions, cable, and satelite services. Thus, the NFB is aware of the problem and is exploring the best manner in which to resolve it for blind people. If you care strongly about this issue, I suggest you call the National Center or Scott and discuss it with Dr. Maurer or Scott. My experience is they are both very responsive. Ronza In a message dated 2/19/2009 10:28:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, roddj12 at hotmail.com writes: If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail. com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=htt p:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo .com From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Feb 20 15:57:23 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 08:57:23 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] national law journal article on suit against LSAC Message-ID: <1F585E6C1BF04ADE802A82848A100315@labarre> Greetings: Below I am pasting a National Law Journal article on the lawsuit we filed yesterday. Because I have been on the team dealing with this, I want folks to know that we first wrote LSAC a letter in December. Joan Vantol got in touch with Dr. Maurer to set up a meeting in Baltimore for January 26th. A few days before, she abruptly canceled the meeting and only stated that she would be in touch at some point to reschedule. We remain open to conducting negotiations with LSAC, but our first obligation is to protect the rights of blind/visually impaired individuals affected by these and similar practices. *********** Blind law student sues Law School Admissions Council over accessibility Sheri Qualters / Staff reporter February 20, 2009 The National Federation of the Blind and a blind law school applicant filed a discrimination lawsuit against the national law school admissions test administrator, The Law School Admissions Council, in a California Superior Court. The lawsuit, which was filed on Feb. 19 in Alameda County, claims that the Newtown, Pa.-based admissions council violates two California laws requiring equal access to disabled persons because its Web site and Law School Admission Test (LSAT) preparation materials are inaccessible to the blind. National Federation of the Blind v. Law School Admissions Council Inc., No. RG-09436691 (Alameda Co., Calif., Super. Ct.). The lawsuit's claims include alleged violations of California's Disabled Persons Act and California's Unruh Act, which requires businesses to offer equal accommodations and facilities to disabled persons. The plaintiffs are also asking the court for a declaratory judgment stating that California laws require the admissions council to provide blind persons equal access to its Web site. The federation has successfully targeted corporations with inadequate Web site accessibility for the blind. Last August, retailer Target Corp. agreed to change its Web site and establish a $6 million claims fund to settle a discrimination class action brought by the federation. National Federation of the Blind v. Target, No. 06-01802 (N.D. Calif.). [NLJ, 8-28-08.] In September, Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley and the federation negotiated a deal with Apple Inc. to make Apple's iTunes and iTunes U fully accessible to the blind. [NLJ 9-30-08.] The Law School Admissions Council is "engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind" said the blind federation's president, Marc Maurer, in a statement. "For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field," stated Maurer. "The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted." The admissions council generally does not comment on pending lawsuits, but decided to make an exception in this case to express its disappointment, said general counsel Joan Van Tol. The council is disappointed that the federation chose to litigate "when we fully expected to address their concerns through productive meetings." Van Tol also said the council has been working on setting up a meeting at the federation's offices "so they could demonstrate new assistive technologies that we'd like to learn about." Here is a link to the article: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202428419045 Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. From mikefry79 at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 16:34:59 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 08:34:59 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] national law journal article on suit against LSAC In-Reply-To: <1F585E6C1BF04ADE802A82848A100315@labarre> References: <1F585E6C1BF04ADE802A82848A100315@labarre> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902200834k33bebe96vd691edc22145f484@mail.gmail.com> That'll teach her to rudly cancel a meeting at the last minute and not reschedule. I bet she's just getting an idea what she's in for. On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: > Greetings: > > Below I am pasting a National Law Journal article on the lawsuit we filed > yesterday. Because I have been on the team dealing with this, I want folks > to know that we first wrote LSAC a letter in December. Joan Vantol got in > touch with Dr. Maurer to set up a meeting in Baltimore for January 26th. A > few days before, she abruptly canceled the meeting and only stated that she > would be in touch at some point to reschedule. We remain open to conducting > negotiations with LSAC, but our first obligation is to protect the rights of > blind/visually impaired individuals affected by these and similar practices. > *********** > > > Blind law student sues Law School Admissions Council over accessibility > > Sheri Qualters / Staff reporter > February 20, 2009 > > > The National Federation of the Blind and a blind law school applicant filed > a discrimination lawsuit against the national law school admissions test > administrator, The Law School Admissions Council, in a California Superior > Court. > > The lawsuit, which was filed on Feb. 19 in Alameda County, claims that the > Newtown, Pa.-based admissions council violates two California laws requiring > equal access to disabled persons because its Web site and Law School > Admission Test (LSAT) preparation materials are inaccessible to the blind. > National Federation of the Blind v. Law School Admissions Council Inc., No. > RG-09436691 (Alameda Co., Calif., Super. Ct.). > > The lawsuit's claims include alleged violations of California's Disabled > Persons Act and California's Unruh Act, which requires businesses to offer > equal accommodations and facilities to disabled persons. The plaintiffs are > also asking the court for a declaratory judgment stating that California > laws require the admissions council to provide blind persons equal access to > its Web site. > > The federation has successfully targeted corporations with inadequate Web > site accessibility for the blind. Last August, retailer Target Corp. agreed > to change its Web site and establish a $6 million claims fund to settle a > discrimination class action brought by the federation. National Federation > of the Blind v. Target, No. 06-01802 (N.D. Calif.). [NLJ, 8-28-08.] > > In September, Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley and the > federation negotiated a deal with Apple Inc. to make Apple's iTunes and > iTunes U fully accessible to the blind. [NLJ 9-30-08.] > > The Law School Admissions Council is "engaging in blatant discrimination > against the blind" said the blind federation's president, Marc Maurer, in a > statement. > > "For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal > profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field," > stated Maurer. "The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly > while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind > people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted." > > The admissions council generally does not comment on pending lawsuits, but > decided to make an exception in this case to express its disappointment, > said general counsel Joan Van Tol. > > The council is disappointed that the federation chose to litigate "when we > fully expected to address their concerns through productive meetings." Van > Tol also said the council has been working on setting up a meeting at the > federation's offices "so they could demonstrate new assistive technologies > that we'd like to learn about." > > Here is a link to the article: > http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202428419045 > > > > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From JFreeh at nfb.org Fri Feb 20 19:06:22 2009 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 13:06:22 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. From JMcCarthy at nfb.org Fri Feb 20 19:41:46 2009 From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org (McCarthy, Jim) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:41:46 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <60490511C85B4224AB885740D6A78F59@D3DTZP41> Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B26D5A7@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> I imagine that the arguments related to whether or not the web is a place of accommodations would be applied to this situation. The other issue is that I am not aware of anyone who has demonstrated a ready-for-market product for making these accessible. Many of us believe it is more than possible but I am not aware of anyone who has put the technology out on the market. That probably makes the ADA not a reasonable approach to this issue. That is only my opinion and others might differ. I believe it was Russell Thomas who suggested a global legislative approach in an earlier post on this thread. At our recently completed Washington Seminar, the NFB promoted as one of our legislative issues what we called a Technology Bill of Rights for the Blind. I will attached the fact sheet for that issue to this email. We are in the very early stages with this and our final outcome may differ significantly from this approach, but I think this is a good starting place and is a reasonable summary of the issues and possible solutions. Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert Jaquiss Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:13 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes Hello Jim and List: On a DISH receiver, it is possible to order Pay For View movies. Would this fact make a DISH receiver a place of business? Also audio described content is not available or at least I haven't been able to get it. Regards, Robert Jaquiss, Member Committee on Research and DEvelopment National Federation of the Blind Email: rjaquiss at earthlink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Barbour" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > I'm curious, what would be the legal basis be for a suit against Dish, > comcast, Direct TV, etc? > > Jim > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 03:57:38PM -0800, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: >> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete >> lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? >> I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable >> system video recorders used by all those companies. >> >> The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating >> system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a >> button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task >> to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is >> a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH >> Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate >> their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. >> >> Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it >> involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary >> depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even >> with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you >> have done. >> >> Sincerely, >> Tim Ford >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore .com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40ear thlink.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf b.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 03-A Technology Bill of Rights for the Blind Fact Sheet 2009.doc Type: application/msword Size: 35840 bytes Desc: 03-A Technology Bill of Rights for the Blind Fact Sheet 2009.doc URL: From mar.cra at comcast.net Fri Feb 20 20:47:37 2009 From: mar.cra at comcast.net (Craig R. Anderson) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 20:47:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1373948790.680151235162857168.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I don't own a guide dog but nonetheless think the policy at issue in this case to be both legally unsound (why did they need a jury here anyway?) and otherwise quite preposterous. It's supposedly illegal for a governmental entity to deny services to an otherwise eligible recipient solely because the recipient uses a service animal. This is true despite any justification the program's operator may advance for the discrimination. A judge could clearly not get away with excluding from his courtroom a blind witness/lawyer/juror with a guide dog by claiming that the dog's presence would disrupt solemn judicial proceedings. Similarly, a rehab agency ought not be heard to say that a client's use of a guide dog would require some undue alteration of itgs orientation program. That program's purpose, after all, should be not so much to imbue uninitiated participants with a pre-packaged "philosophy" as to impart relevant skills a student hasn't previously learned. A client with a guide dog might well thus dispense with the curriculum's cane travel component and concentrate instead on Braille or computer training -- activities with which noone seriously suggests a dog can interfere. I can't fathom what would be so bad about such tailoring of an orientation program. Regards. Craig---- Joanne Wilson wrote: > > ---------- > From: Brammer, Robert [AG] [mailto:rbrammer at ag.state.ia.us] > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:53 PM > To: Brammer, Robert [AG] > Subject: Atty. Gen. release: Jury finds IA Dept. > for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate > > To News Editors. From Bob Brammer (Iowa > Attorney General’s Office – 515-281-6699.) > Please find a release pasted below. This will be > posted soon at > www.IowaAttorneyGeneral.org > . A jury entered a verdict Wednesday in this > case in Polk County District Court. > Best regards, Bram > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For immediate release – Thursday, February 19, 2009. > Contact Bob Brammer – 515-281-6699 > > Jury finds Iowa Department for the Blind’s > Guide Dog Policy Does Not Discriminate > > Des Moines. A Polk County jury has > rejected a Des Moines woman’s claim that the > State of Iowa Department for the Blind > discriminated against her by refusing her request > to use a guide dog while she attended the > Department’s orientation and adjustment training program. > > The Department for the Blind > orientation and training program is a > comprehensive program that utilizes a totally > non-visual approach to teaching blindness > skills. Students with partial vision are > required to wear eyeshades to prevent reliance > upon any visual cues during training. Department > policies prohibit the use of any visual aids > within the orientation and training program, > including guide dogs. The Department has no > objection to guide dogs in other situations. > > Stephanie Dohmen, who is legally > blind, attended the program for several months > beginning in September 2000 and sought to > re-enter the program in June 2002 accompanied by her guide dog. > > Dohmen claimed in her lawsuit that > the Department’s policy violated her rights under > the Iowa Civil Rights Act and under federal laws > that prohibit discrimination on the basis of disability. > > After a six-day trial, the > eight-person jury rejected Dohmen’s claims in a verdict entered Wednesday. > > > The Department for the Blind, which > was represented in the trial by the Iowa Attorney > General’s Office, argued that a totally > non-visual approach – and training without > assistance of a guide-dog or other visual aids – > is the most effective approach for > visually-impaired persons who are learning skills > and techniques for dealing with blindness. > > The Department places no limitations > upon the use of guide dogs in other settings, > including in the Department for the Blind > building in downtown Des Moines. For example, > Karen Keninger, the Director of the Department, > uses a guide dog, and the dog accompanied > Keninger during her testimony at the trial. > > The orientation program typically > includes about six months of full-time training > in various problem-solving skills, such as > cane-travel on public streets, using Braille, > using computers, and dealing with many other situations. > > The Department for the Blind’s > orientation and adjustment program was > established in 1959 and is considered by many to > be one of the most effective in the country. > > During the trial, the State > Department for the Blind presented testimony from > Joanne Wilson and Frederic K. Schroeder, each a > former Commissioner of the U.S. Rehabilitation > Services Administration, which oversees programs > for the blind around the country. > > “Iowa’s orientation program > profoundly changes lives,” said Wilson, who also > is Executive Director of the National Federation > of the Blind. “It works. It’s a cutting-edge > program and a model for other states.” Wilson is > a Webster City native and ISU graduate who went > through the Iowa Department for the Blind’s orientation program herself. > > Schroeder said: “To me the central > point is that individuals have a choice in the > type of training they take. While programs must > and should make reasonable accommodations, they > cannot be required to alter the fundamentals of the program.” > > - 30 - > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net From chatter8712 at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 21:10:48 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (Shane D) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:10:48 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate In-Reply-To: <1373948790.680151235162857168.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1373948790.680151235162857168.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902201310g59e8125dga9b83331566ccba2@mail.gmail.com> I agree. I just think, from reading, that the express purpose of this training was to volluntarily learn to live with no guide dog or cane. To show up with one and then call it discrimination sounds extremely stupid to me. You signed up. On 2/20/09, Craig R. Anderson wrote: > I don't own a guide dog but nonetheless think the policy at issue in this > case to be both legally unsound (why did they need a jury here anyway?) and > otherwise quite preposterous. It's supposedly illegal for a governmental > entity to deny services to an otherwise eligible recipient solely because > the recipient uses a service animal. This is true despite any justification > the program's operator may advance for the discrimination. A judge could > clearly not get away with excluding from his courtroom a blind > witness/lawyer/juror with a guide dog by claiming that the dog's presence > would disrupt solemn judicial proceedings. Similarly, a rehab agency ought > not be heard to say that a client's use of a guide dog would require some > undue alteration of itgs orientation program. That program's purpose, after > all, should be not so much to imbue uninitiated participants with a > pre-packaged "philosophy" as to impart relevant skills a student hasn't > previously learned. A client with a guide dog might well thus dispense with > the curriculum's cane travel component and concentrate instead on Braille or > computer training -- activities with which noone seriously suggests a dog > can interfere. I can't fathom what would be so bad about such tailoring of > an orientation program. Regards. > > Craig---- Joanne Wilson wrote: >> >> ---------- >> From: Brammer, Robert [AG] [mailto:rbrammer at ag.state.ia.us] >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:53 PM >> To: Brammer, Robert [AG] >> Subject: Atty. Gen. release: Jury finds IA Dept. >> for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate >> >> To News Editors. From Bob Brammer (Iowa >> Attorney General's Office – 515-281-6699.) >> Please find a release pasted below. This will be >> posted soon at >> www.IowaAttorneyGeneral.org >> . A jury entered a verdict Wednesday in this >> case in Polk County District Court. >> Best regards, Bram >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> For immediate release – Thursday, February 19, 2009. >> Contact Bob Brammer – 515-281-6699 >> >> Jury finds Iowa Department for the Blind's >> Guide Dog Policy Does Not Discriminate >> >> Des Moines. A Polk County jury has >> rejected a Des Moines woman's claim that the >> State of Iowa Department for the Blind >> discriminated against her by refusing her request >> to use a guide dog while she attended the >> Department's orientation and adjustment training program. >> >> The Department for the Blind >> orientation and training program is a >> comprehensive program that utilizes a totally >> non-visual approach to teaching blindness >> skills. Students with partial vision are >> required to wear eyeshades to prevent reliance >> upon any visual cues during training. Department >> policies prohibit the use of any visual aids >> within the orientation and training program, >> including guide dogs. The Department has no >> objection to guide dogs in other situations. >> >> Stephanie Dohmen, who is legally >> blind, attended the program for several months >> beginning in September 2000 and sought to >> re-enter the program in June 2002 accompanied by her guide dog. >> >> Dohmen claimed in her lawsuit that >> the Department's policy violated her rights under >> the Iowa Civil Rights Act and under federal laws >> that prohibit discrimination on the basis of disability. >> >> After a six-day trial, the >> eight-person jury rejected Dohmen's claims in a verdict entered Wednesday. >> >> >> The Department for the Blind, which >> was represented in the trial by the Iowa Attorney >> General's Office, argued that a totally >> non-visual approach – and training without >> assistance of a guide-dog or other visual aids – >> is the most effective approach for >> visually-impaired persons who are learning skills >> and techniques for dealing with blindness. >> >> The Department places no limitations >> upon the use of guide dogs in other settings, >> including in the Department for the Blind >> building in downtown Des Moines. For example, >> Karen Keninger, the Director of the Department, >> uses a guide dog, and the dog accompanied >> Keninger during her testimony at the trial. >> >> The orientation program typically >> includes about six months of full-time training >> in various problem-solving skills, such as >> cane-travel on public streets, using Braille, >> using computers, and dealing with many other situations. >> >> The Department for the Blind's >> orientation and adjustment program was >> established in 1959 and is considered by many to >> be one of the most effective in the country. >> >> During the trial, the State >> Department for the Blind presented testimony from >> Joanne Wilson and Frederic K. Schroeder, each a >> former Commissioner of the U.S. Rehabilitation >> Services Administration, which oversees programs >> for the blind around the country. >> >> "Iowa's orientation program >> profoundly changes lives," said Wilson, who also >> is Executive Director of the National Federation >> of the Blind. "It works. It's a cutting-edge >> program and a model for other states." Wilson is >> a Webster City native and ISU graduate who went >> through the Iowa Department for the Blind's orientation program herself. >> >> Schroeder said: "To me the central >> point is that individuals have a choice in the >> type of training they take. While programs must >> and should make reasonable accommodations, they >> cannot be required to alter the fundamentals of the program." >> >> - 30 - >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 20 21:36:40 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 13:36:40 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <7A81EAA6A818464291283D8BB0E96405@RJT> References: <7A81EAA6A818464291283D8BB0E96405@RJT> Message-ID: this sounds like a good idea as so many of the devices are manufactured in places like China. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 6:37 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > A possible option--a global approach to the accessibility of consumer > products by comprehensive legislation. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:06 AM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > I was at a seminar a few weeks ago, and Dr. Maurer specifically mentioned > the lack of accessibility of televisions, cable, and satelite services. > Thus, > the NFB is aware of the problem and is exploring the best manner in which > to > resolve it for blind people. If you care strongly about this issue, I > suggest you call the National Center or Scott and discuss it with Dr. > Maurer > or > Scott. My experience is they are both very responsive. > > Ronza > > > > In a message dated 2/19/2009 10:28:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > roddj12 at hotmail.com writes: > > If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed > through > law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts > have > > to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. > > Rod Alcidonis > Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. > Roger Williams University School of Law > 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 > Bristol, RI 02809 > Cell: 718-704-4651 > Home: 401-824-8685 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > >> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete >> lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? >> I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable >> system video recorders used by all those companies. >> >> The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating >> system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a >> button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task >> to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is >> a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH >> Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate >> their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. >> >> Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it >> involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary >> depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even >> with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you >> have done. >> >> Sincerely, >> Tim Ford >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail. > com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 > easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=htt > p:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID > %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo > .com > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV Fri Feb 20 21:43:48 2009 From: Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV (Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:43:48 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Visual Aide Message-ID: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1615A64@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov> I am of the opinion, that this "nonstandard" use of the term visual aid means, in context, anyone or anything with vision being used as an aid. To me, the crux of this issue is whether a program designed to teach blind persons how to function independently of sight means that the skills must be learned without any *visual* aid. Bennett Prows, J.D. Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:56:25 -0500 From: "Angie Matney" Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Would someone please explain this nonstandard use of the term "visual aid" to me? My dog is not a powerpoint presentation. From mikefry79 at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 22:41:08 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:41:08 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902201310g59e8125dga9b83331566ccba2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1373948790.680151235162857168.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <7556b95a0902201310g59e8125dga9b83331566ccba2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902201441k2f0a9cc7td1448bc13604dc72@mail.gmail.com> Yea Shane, I agree man. The whole point of the program seems to be to not use a guide dog. On the other hand, the lady's probably very sensitve. If she wants to use her dog, what's the big deal? Asnwering this question would probably shed light on the courts ruling. On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Shane D wrote: > I agree. I just think, from reading, that the express purpose of this > training was to volluntarily learn to live with no guide dog or cane. > To show up with one and then call it discrimination sounds extremely > stupid to me. You signed up. > > On 2/20/09, Craig R. Anderson wrote: > > I don't own a guide dog but nonetheless think the policy at issue in this > > case to be both legally unsound (why did they need a jury here anyway?) > and > > otherwise quite preposterous. It's supposedly illegal for a > governmental > > entity to deny services to an otherwise eligible recipient solely because > > the recipient uses a service animal. This is true despite any > justification > > the program's operator may advance for the discrimination. A judge could > > clearly not get away with excluding from his courtroom a blind > > witness/lawyer/juror with a guide dog by claiming that the dog's presence > > would disrupt solemn judicial proceedings. Similarly, a rehab agency > ought > > not be heard to say that a client's use of a guide dog would require some > > undue alteration of itgs orientation program. That program's purpose, > after > > all, should be not so much to imbue uninitiated participants with a > > pre-packaged "philosophy" as to impart relevant skills a student hasn't > > previously learned. A client with a guide dog might well thus dispense > with > > the curriculum's cane travel component and concentrate instead on Braille > or > > computer training -- activities with which noone seriously suggests a dog > > can interfere. I can't fathom what would be so bad about such tailoring > of > > an orientation program. Regards. > > > > Craig---- Joanne Wilson wrote: > >> > >> ---------- > >> From: Brammer, Robert [AG] [mailto:rbrammer at ag.state.ia.us] > >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:53 PM > >> To: Brammer, Robert [AG] > >> Subject: Atty. Gen. release: Jury finds IA Dept. > >> for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate > >> > >> To News Editors. From Bob Brammer (Iowa > >> Attorney General's Office – 515-281-6699.) > >> Please find a release pasted below. This will be > >> posted soon at > >> www.IowaAttorneyGeneral.org > >> . A jury entered a verdict Wednesday in this > >> case in Polk County District Court. > >> Best regards, Bram > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> For immediate release – Thursday, February 19, 2009. > >> Contact Bob Brammer – 515-281-6699 > >> > >> Jury finds Iowa Department for the Blind's > >> Guide Dog Policy Does Not Discriminate > >> > >> Des Moines. A Polk County jury has > >> rejected a Des Moines woman's claim that the > >> State of Iowa Department for the Blind > >> discriminated against her by refusing her request > >> to use a guide dog while she attended the > >> Department's orientation and adjustment training program. > >> > >> The Department for the Blind > >> orientation and training program is a > >> comprehensive program that utilizes a totally > >> non-visual approach to teaching blindness > >> skills. Students with partial vision are > >> required to wear eyeshades to prevent reliance > >> upon any visual cues during training. Department > >> policies prohibit the use of any visual aids > >> within the orientation and training program, > >> including guide dogs. The Department has no > >> objection to guide dogs in other situations. > >> > >> Stephanie Dohmen, who is legally > >> blind, attended the program for several months > >> beginning in September 2000 and sought to > >> re-enter the program in June 2002 accompanied by her guide dog. > >> > >> Dohmen claimed in her lawsuit that > >> the Department's policy violated her rights under > >> the Iowa Civil Rights Act and under federal laws > >> that prohibit discrimination on the basis of disability. > >> > >> After a six-day trial, the > >> eight-person jury rejected Dohmen's claims in a verdict entered > Wednesday. > >> > >> > >> The Department for the Blind, which > >> was represented in the trial by the Iowa Attorney > >> General's Office, argued that a totally > >> non-visual approach – and training without > >> assistance of a guide-dog or other visual aids – > >> is the most effective approach for > >> visually-impaired persons who are learning skills > >> and techniques for dealing with blindness. > >> > >> The Department places no limitations > >> upon the use of guide dogs in other settings, > >> including in the Department for the Blind > >> building in downtown Des Moines. For example, > >> Karen Keninger, the Director of the Department, > >> uses a guide dog, and the dog accompanied > >> Keninger during her testimony at the trial. > >> > >> The orientation program typically > >> includes about six months of full-time training > >> in various problem-solving skills, such as > >> cane-travel on public streets, using Braille, > >> using computers, and dealing with many other situations. > >> > >> The Department for the Blind's > >> orientation and adjustment program was > >> established in 1959 and is considered by many to > >> be one of the most effective in the country. > >> > >> During the trial, the State > >> Department for the Blind presented testimony from > >> Joanne Wilson and Frederic K. Schroeder, each a > >> former Commissioner of the U.S. Rehabilitation > >> Services Administration, which oversees programs > >> for the blind around the country. > >> > >> "Iowa's orientation program > >> profoundly changes lives," said Wilson, who also > >> is Executive Director of the National Federation > >> of the Blind. "It works. It's a cutting-edge > >> program and a model for other states." Wilson is > >> a Webster City native and ISU graduate who went > >> through the Iowa Department for the Blind's orientation program herself. > >> > >> Schroeder said: "To me the central > >> point is that individuals have a choice in the > >> type of training they take. While programs must > >> and should make reasonable accommodations, they > >> cannot be required to alter the fundamentals of the program." > >> > >> - 30 - > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 20 22:44:34 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:44:34 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policydoes not discriminate In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902201310g59e8125dga9b83331566ccba2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1373948790.680151235162857168.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <7556b95a0902201310g59e8125dga9b83331566ccba2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2888ED7A95A34558AD63D495DD32A0AD@spike> Actually, the purpose of rehabilitation programs such as this one is for people who have never adequately developed adjustment or independent living skills to blindness. If a person has already managed to obtain a guide dog and gone through the appropriate training I question with the diminished availability of resources in most states if they really need to participate in such a comprehensive program as this or ones like it. Chuck. It sounds like a person who has ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane D" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policydoes not discriminate I agree. I just think, from reading, that the express purpose of this training was to volluntarily learn to live with no guide dog or cane. To show up with one and then call it discrimination sounds extremely stupid to me. You signed up. On 2/20/09, Craig R. Anderson wrote: > I don't own a guide dog but nonetheless think the policy at issue in this > case to be both legally unsound (why did they need a jury here anyway?) > and > otherwise quite preposterous. It's supposedly illegal for a governmental > entity to deny services to an otherwise eligible recipient solely because > the recipient uses a service animal. This is true despite any > justification > the program's operator may advance for the discrimination. A judge could > clearly not get away with excluding from his courtroom a blind > witness/lawyer/juror with a guide dog by claiming that the dog's presence > would disrupt solemn judicial proceedings. Similarly, a rehab agency > ought > not be heard to say that a client's use of a guide dog would require some > undue alteration of itgs orientation program. That program's purpose, > after > all, should be not so much to imbue uninitiated participants with a > pre-packaged "philosophy" as to impart relevant skills a student hasn't > previously learned. A client with a guide dog might well thus dispense > with > the curriculum's cane travel component and concentrate instead on Braille > or > computer training -- activities with which noone seriously suggests a dog > can interfere. I can't fathom what would be so bad about such tailoring > of > an orientation program. Regards. > > Craig---- Joanne Wilson wrote: >> >> ---------- >> From: Brammer, Robert [AG] [mailto:rbrammer at ag.state.ia.us] >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:53 PM >> To: Brammer, Robert [AG] >> Subject: Atty. Gen. release: Jury finds IA Dept. >> for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate >> >> To News Editors. From Bob Brammer (Iowa >> Attorney General's Office – 515-281-6699.) >> Please find a release pasted below. This will be >> posted soon at >> www.IowaAttorneyGeneral.org >> . A jury entered a verdict Wednesday in this >> case in Polk County District Court. >> Best regards, Bram >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> For immediate release – Thursday, February 19, 2009. >> Contact Bob Brammer – 515-281-6699 >> >> Jury finds Iowa Department for the Blind's >> Guide Dog Policy Does Not Discriminate >> >> Des Moines. A Polk County jury has >> rejected a Des Moines woman's claim that the >> State of Iowa Department for the Blind >> discriminated against her by refusing her request >> to use a guide dog while she attended the >> Department's orientation and adjustment training program. >> >> The Department for the Blind >> orientation and training program is a >> comprehensive program that utilizes a totally >> non-visual approach to teaching blindness >> skills. Students with partial vision are >> required to wear eyeshades to prevent reliance >> upon any visual cues during training. Department >> policies prohibit the use of any visual aids >> within the orientation and training program, >> including guide dogs. The Department has no >> objection to guide dogs in other situations. >> >> Stephanie Dohmen, who is legally >> blind, attended the program for several months >> beginning in September 2000 and sought to >> re-enter the program in June 2002 accompanied by her guide dog. >> >> Dohmen claimed in her lawsuit that >> the Department's policy violated her rights under >> the Iowa Civil Rights Act and under federal laws >> that prohibit discrimination on the basis of disability. >> >> After a six-day trial, the >> eight-person jury rejected Dohmen's claims in a verdict entered >> Wednesday. >> >> >> The Department for the Blind, which >> was represented in the trial by the Iowa Attorney >> General's Office, argued that a totally >> non-visual approach – and training without >> assistance of a guide-dog or other visual aids – >> is the most effective approach for >> visually-impaired persons who are learning skills >> and techniques for dealing with blindness. >> >> The Department places no limitations >> upon the use of guide dogs in other settings, >> including in the Department for the Blind >> building in downtown Des Moines. For example, >> Karen Keninger, the Director of the Department, >> uses a guide dog, and the dog accompanied >> Keninger during her testimony at the trial. >> >> The orientation program typically >> includes about six months of full-time training >> in various problem-solving skills, such as >> cane-travel on public streets, using Braille, >> using computers, and dealing with many other situations. >> >> The Department for the Blind's >> orientation and adjustment program was >> established in 1959 and is considered by many to >> be one of the most effective in the country. >> >> During the trial, the State >> Department for the Blind presented testimony from >> Joanne Wilson and Frederic K. Schroeder, each a >> former Commissioner of the U.S. Rehabilitation >> Services Administration, which oversees programs >> for the blind around the country. >> >> "Iowa's orientation program >> profoundly changes lives," said Wilson, who also >> is Executive Director of the National Federation >> of the Blind. "It works. It's a cutting-edge >> program and a model for other states." Wilson is >> a Webster City native and ISU graduate who went >> through the Iowa Department for the Blind's orientation program herself. >> >> Schroeder said: "To me the central >> point is that individuals have a choice in the >> type of training they take. While programs must >> and should make reasonable accommodations, they >> cannot be required to alter the fundamentals of the program." >> >> - 30 - >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From jduncanhines at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 23:29:13 2009 From: jduncanhines at gmail.com (joe hines) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:29:13 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policydoes not discriminate References: <1373948790.680151235162857168.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><7556b95a0902201310g59e8125dga9b83331566ccba2@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902201441k2f0a9cc7td1448bc13604dc72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d601c993b3$0adb40e0$6401a8c0@93LRNC1> but has she developed her indepence on the dog hence, She uses it as I would my cane? I would be lost without it so is her dog the same? Joe Hines jduncanhines at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Fry" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policydoes not discriminate Yea Shane, I agree man. The whole point of the program seems to be to not use a guide dog. On the other hand, the lady's probably very sensitve. If she wants to use her dog, what's the big deal? Asnwering this question would probably shed light on the courts ruling. On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Shane D wrote: > I agree. I just think, from reading, that the express purpose of this > training was to volluntarily learn to live with no guide dog or cane. > To show up with one and then call it discrimination sounds extremely > stupid to me. You signed up. > > On 2/20/09, Craig R. Anderson wrote: > > I don't own a guide dog but nonetheless think the policy at issue in > > this > > case to be both legally unsound (why did they need a jury here anyway?) > and > > otherwise quite preposterous. It's supposedly illegal for a > governmental > > entity to deny services to an otherwise eligible recipient solely > > because > > the recipient uses a service animal. This is true despite any > justification > > the program's operator may advance for the discrimination. A judge > > could > > clearly not get away with excluding from his courtroom a blind > > witness/lawyer/juror with a guide dog by claiming that the dog's > > presence > > would disrupt solemn judicial proceedings. Similarly, a rehab agency > ought > > not be heard to say that a client's use of a guide dog would require > > some > > undue alteration of itgs orientation program. That program's purpose, > after > > all, should be not so much to imbue uninitiated participants with a > > pre-packaged "philosophy" as to impart relevant skills a student hasn't > > previously learned. A client with a guide dog might well thus dispense > with > > the curriculum's cane travel component and concentrate instead on > > Braille > or > > computer training -- activities with which noone seriously suggests a > > dog > > can interfere. I can't fathom what would be so bad about such tailoring > of > > an orientation program. Regards. > > > > Craig---- Joanne Wilson wrote: > >> > >> ---------- > >> From: Brammer, Robert [AG] [mailto:rbrammer at ag.state.ia.us] > >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:53 PM > >> To: Brammer, Robert [AG] > >> Subject: Atty. Gen. release: Jury finds IA Dept. > >> for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate > >> > >> To News Editors. From Bob Brammer (Iowa > >> Attorney General's Office – 515-281-6699.) > >> Please find a release pasted below. This will be > >> posted soon at > >> www.IowaAttorneyGeneral.org > >> . A jury entered a verdict Wednesday in this > >> case in Polk County District Court. > >> Best regards, Bram > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> For immediate release – Thursday, February 19, 2009. > >> Contact Bob Brammer – 515-281-6699 > >> > >> Jury finds Iowa Department for the Blind's > >> Guide Dog Policy Does Not Discriminate > >> > >> Des Moines. A Polk County jury has > >> rejected a Des Moines woman's claim that the > >> State of Iowa Department for the Blind > >> discriminated against her by refusing her request > >> to use a guide dog while she attended the > >> Department's orientation and adjustment training program. > >> > >> The Department for the Blind > >> orientation and training program is a > >> comprehensive program that utilizes a totally > >> non-visual approach to teaching blindness > >> skills. Students with partial vision are > >> required to wear eyeshades to prevent reliance > >> upon any visual cues during training. Department > >> policies prohibit the use of any visual aids > >> within the orientation and training program, > >> including guide dogs. The Department has no > >> objection to guide dogs in other situations. > >> > >> Stephanie Dohmen, who is legally > >> blind, attended the program for several months > >> beginning in September 2000 and sought to > >> re-enter the program in June 2002 accompanied by her guide dog. > >> > >> Dohmen claimed in her lawsuit that > >> the Department's policy violated her rights under > >> the Iowa Civil Rights Act and under federal laws > >> that prohibit discrimination on the basis of disability. > >> > >> After a six-day trial, the > >> eight-person jury rejected Dohmen's claims in a verdict entered > Wednesday. > >> > >> > >> The Department for the Blind, which > >> was represented in the trial by the Iowa Attorney > >> General's Office, argued that a totally > >> non-visual approach – and training without > >> assistance of a guide-dog or other visual aids – > >> is the most effective approach for > >> visually-impaired persons who are learning skills > >> and techniques for dealing with blindness. > >> > >> The Department places no limitations > >> upon the use of guide dogs in other settings, > >> including in the Department for the Blind > >> building in downtown Des Moines. For example, > >> Karen Keninger, the Director of the Department, > >> uses a guide dog, and the dog accompanied > >> Keninger during her testimony at the trial. > >> > >> The orientation program typically > >> includes about six months of full-time training > >> in various problem-solving skills, such as > >> cane-travel on public streets, using Braille, > >> using computers, and dealing with many other situations. > >> > >> The Department for the Blind's > >> orientation and adjustment program was > >> established in 1959 and is considered by many to > >> be one of the most effective in the country. > >> > >> During the trial, the State > >> Department for the Blind presented testimony from > >> Joanne Wilson and Frederic K. Schroeder, each a > >> former Commissioner of the U.S. Rehabilitation > >> Services Administration, which oversees programs > >> for the blind around the country. > >> > >> "Iowa's orientation program > >> profoundly changes lives," said Wilson, who also > >> is Executive Director of the National Federation > >> of the Blind. "It works. It's a cutting-edge > >> program and a model for other states." Wilson is > >> a Webster City native and ISU graduate who went > >> through the Iowa Department for the Blind's orientation program > >> herself. > >> > >> Schroeder said: "To me the central > >> point is that individuals have a choice in the > >> type of training they take. While programs must > >> and should make reasonable accommodations, they > >> cannot be required to alter the fundamentals of the program." > >> > >> - 30 - > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jduncanhines%40gmail.com From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Sun Feb 22 15:32:47 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 07:32:47 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I mention the satellite and cable boxes because they are so wide-spread. I also suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there are probably very few differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer variability as compared with a typical computer system. Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotm ail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov From lmilholland at hotmail.com Sun Feb 22 16:17:31 2009 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:17:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Other List info In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: Would someone please send the information for signing up for the technology list serve? Thanks, Locke From mikefry79 at gmail.com Sun Feb 22 17:15:18 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:15:18 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902220915u60ff23b4q94b60c4d500fb438@mail.gmail.com> It seems cable box accessibility is relevant to more visually impaired people than LSAC accessibility. On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: > I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I mention > the satellite and cable boxes because they are so wide-spread. I also > suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there are probably very few > differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. > Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or > easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen > reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech > output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer > variability as compared with a typical computer system. > > Tim Ford > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed > through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our > efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. > > Rod Alcidonis > Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. > Roger Williams University School of Law > 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 > Bristol, RI 02809 > Cell: 718-704-4651 > Home: 401-824-8685 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > > > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video > tuner/recorder? > > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and > cable > > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it > is > > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could > operate > > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of > it > > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what > you > > have done. > > > > Sincerely, > > Tim Ford > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotm > ail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp > h.ca.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Sun Feb 22 17:19:02 2009 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:19:02 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: <8F15CC49962E4E4A8E22200BA926D9D1@owner96190708e> The message below assumes that the boxes employ standard representations of text rather than graphics; even the best screen-reading software generally requires an "off-screen model" or, if not that, a way to get at straight text. If only a graphical representation of the data is present, we're blown out of the water unless and until we can persuade box manufacturers that there is an advantage to having on-board text representation of the data. Mike Freeman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 7:32 AM Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I mention the satellite and cable boxes because they are so wide-spread. I also suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there are probably very few differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer variability as compared with a typical computer system. Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotm ail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From dandrews at visi.com Sun Feb 22 19:14:13 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:14:13 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Other List info In-Reply-To: References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: We have several technology-related lists, gui-talk, nfb in computer science, and promotion of technology -- which is mostly announcements. They all can be found at www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo The main one is probably gui-talk -- to subscribe either go to: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org or send e-mail to gui-talk-request at nfbnet.org and put the word subscribe in the subject line. Dave At 10:17 AM 2/22/2009, you wrote: >Would someone please send the information for signing up for the >technology list serve? >Thanks, >Locke > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.2/1965 - Release Date: >02/21/09 15:36:00 From fairall at shellworld.net Sun Feb 22 20:21:01 2009 From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:21:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902220915u60ff23b4q94b60c4d500fb438@mail.gmail.com> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <8c58e54a0902220915u60ff23b4q94b60c4d500fb438@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually, I think the LSAC issue is more important than making cable boxes accessible to blind people. While most blind people have either cable or satellite TV, 70% of us are still unemployed. Ensuring that a blind person can enter a profession and support themselves is more important than access to entertainment such as as cable and satellite TV boxes and remotes. I own a couple of satellite radio receivers, and they're not fully accessible either. However, these are for my entertainment pleasure, not my life's work. On Sun, 22 Feb 2009, Michael Fry wrote: > It seems cable box accessibility is relevant to more visually impaired > people than LSAC accessibility. > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) > wrote: > >> I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I mention >> the satellite and cable boxes because they are so wide-spread. I also >> suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there are probably very few >> differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. >> Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or >> easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen >> reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech >> output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer >> variability as compared with a typical computer system. >> >> Tim Ford >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes >> >> If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed >> through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our >> efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. >> >> Rod Alcidonis >> Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. >> Roger Williams University School of Law >> 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 >> Bristol, RI 02809 >> Cell: 718-704-4651 >> Home: 401-824-8685 >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes >> >> >>> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete >>> lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video >> tuner/recorder? >>> I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and >> cable >>> system video recorders used by all those companies. >>> >>> The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating >>> system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a >>> button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task >>> to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it >> is >>> a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH >>> Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could >> operate >>> their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. >>> >>> Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of >> it >>> involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary >>> depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even >>> with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what >> you >>> have done. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Tim Ford >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotm >> ail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp >> h.ca.gov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40shellworld.net > > From lmilholland at hotmail.com Sun Feb 22 20:46:28 2009 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:46:28 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Other List info In-Reply-To: References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: Thanks, I appear to be signed up. Locke -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Andrews" Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 2:14 PM To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Other List info > We have several technology-related lists, gui-talk, nfb in computer > science, and promotion of technology -- which is mostly announcements. > They all can be found at www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo > > The main one is probably gui-talk -- to subscribe either go to: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org > > or send e-mail to gui-talk-request at nfbnet.org and put the word subscribe > in the subject line. > > Dave > > At 10:17 AM 2/22/2009, you wrote: >>Would someone please send the information for signing up for the >>technology list serve? >>Thanks, >>Locke >> >>_______________________________________________ >>blindlaw mailing list >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>blindlaw: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >> >> >> >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.2/1965 - Release Date: 02/21/09 >>15:36:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com > From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Mon Feb 23 01:28:28 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:28:28 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><8c58e54a0902220915u60ff23b4q94b60c4d500fb438@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B292@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> I suggest that the two matters are so very different that they should not be directly compared. Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Leslie Fairall Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 12:21 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes Actually, I think the LSAC issue is more important than making cable boxes accessible to blind people. While most blind people have either cable or satellite TV, 70% of us are still unemployed. Ensuring that a blind person can enter a profession and support themselves is more important than access to entertainment such as as cable and satellite TV boxes and remotes. I own a couple of satellite radio receivers, and they're not fully accessible either. However, these are for my entertainment pleasure, not my life's work. On Sun, 22 Feb 2009, Michael Fry wrote: > It seems cable box accessibility is relevant to more visually impaired > people than LSAC accessibility. > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) > wrote: > >> I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I >> mention the satellite and cable boxes because they are so >> wide-spread. I also suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there >> are probably very few differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. >> Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or >> easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen >> reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech >> output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer >> variability as compared with a typical computer system. >> >> Tim Ford >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes >> >> If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed >> through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. >> Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. >> >> Rod Alcidonis >> Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. >> Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 >> Bristol, RI 02809 >> Cell: 718-704-4651 >> Home: 401-824-8685 >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes >> >> >>> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the >>> complete lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video >> tuner/recorder? >>> I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and >> cable >>> system video recorders used by all those companies. >>> >>> The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an >>> operating system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow >>> options, a button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not >>> be a hard task to put speech output into that operating system, >>> especially since it >> is >>> a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH >>> Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could >> operate >>> their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. >>> >>> Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest >>> of >> it >>> involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary >>> depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done >>> even with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming >>> what >> you >>> have done. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Tim Ford >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40h >> otm >> ail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40 >> cdp >> h.ca.gov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%4 >> 0gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40sh > ellworld.net > > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Mon Feb 23 01:33:10 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:33:10 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <8F15CC49962E4E4A8E22200BA926D9D1@owner96190708e> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <8F15CC49962E4E4A8E22200BA926D9D1@owner96190708e> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B293@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> That's what I get for trying to apply my very low level of computer knowledge! Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 9:19 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes The message below assumes that the boxes employ standard representations of text rather than graphics; even the best screen-reading software generally requires an "off-screen model" or, if not that, a way to get at straight text. If only a graphical representation of the data is present, we're blown out of the water unless and until we can persuade box manufacturers that there is an advantage to having on-board text representation of the data. Mike Freeman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 7:32 AM Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I mention the satellite and cable boxes because they are so wide-spread. I also suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there are probably very few differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer variability as compared with a typical computer system. Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotm ail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix. com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov From b75205 at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 01:47:32 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:47:32 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: The state of accessibility is extremely new and very hard to get into if you are an independent operator. Not only do you have to invent the new technology, you have to convince people who really do not want to deal with the idea of change, to change. You have to explain to IT personnel that the practices they have been doing for many years are completely useless. They do not want to admit to failure. So if you are expecting change overnight, forget it. The US government uses the oldest software they can get to make things accessible. It is a mess. So even if the software exists that doesn't mean they know how to use it. Just because some people got lucky and designed a device to be accessible doesn't mean that everyone knows how to do it and for accessibility to work you need people who actually know how to do it an they are very rare! James On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: > I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I mention > the satellite and cable boxes because they are so wide-spread. I also > suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there are probably very few > differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. > Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or > easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen > reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech > output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer > variability as compared with a typical computer system. > > Tim Ford > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed > through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our > efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. > > Rod Alcidonis > Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. > Roger Williams University School of Law > 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 > Bristol, RI 02809 > Cell: 718-704-4651 > Home: 401-824-8685 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > > > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video > tuner/recorder? > > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and > cable > > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it > is > > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could > operate > > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of > it > > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what > you > > have done. > > > > Sincerely, > > Tim Ford > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotm > ail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp > h.ca.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 02:06:30 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:06:30 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination Message-ID: Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man actually said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and the hiring person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of insurance costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more than anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and besides that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what he did was about as illegal as you can get! I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just so I know what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to his boss telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of him. James From fairall at shellworld.net Mon Feb 23 12:06:59 2009 From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:06:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B292@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><8c58e54a0902220915u60ff23b4q94b60c4d500fb438@mail.gmail.com> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B292@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: Although the two matters are different, as an organization we must determine which issue is more of a priority. As a blind person, I believe that ensuring that all of us have access to jobs and supporting ourselves is more of a priority than making cable and satellite boxes accessible. That certainly doesn't mean that we shouldn't work on this issue as well. With limited funds these days, sometimes organizations have to make tough choices which may not please everyone. On Sun, 22 Feb 2009, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: > I suggest that the two matters are so very different that they should > not be directly compared. > > Tim Ford > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Leslie Fairall > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 12:21 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes > > Actually, I think the LSAC issue is more important than making cable > boxes accessible to blind people. While most blind people have either > cable or satellite TV, 70% of us are still unemployed. Ensuring that a > blind person can enter a profession and support themselves is more > important than access to entertainment such as as cable and satellite TV > boxes and remotes. I own a couple of satellite radio receivers, and > they're not fully accessible either. However, these are for my > entertainment pleasure, not my life's work. > > > On Sun, 22 Feb 2009, Michael Fry wrote: > >> It seems cable box accessibility is relevant to more visually impaired > >> people than LSAC accessibility. >> >> On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) >> wrote: >> >>> I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I >>> mention the satellite and cable boxes because they are so >>> wide-spread. I also suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there >>> are probably very few differences inside the various boxes in terms > of the basic technology. >>> Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or >>> easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen > >>> reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech >>> output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer > >>> variability as compared with a typical computer system. >>> >>> Tim Ford >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis >>> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes >>> >>> If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed >>> through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. >>> Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. >>> >>> Rod Alcidonis >>> Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. >>> Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 >>> Bristol, RI 02809 >>> Cell: 718-704-4651 >>> Home: 401-824-8685 >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes >>> >>> >>>> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the >>>> complete lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video >>> tuner/recorder? >>>> I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and >>> cable >>>> system video recorders used by all those companies. >>>> >>>> The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an >>>> operating system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow > >>>> options, a button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not >>>> be a hard task to put speech output into that operating system, >>>> especially since it >>> is >>>> a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH >>>> Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could >>> operate >>>> their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. >>>> >>>> Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest >>>> of >>> it >>>> involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary >>>> depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done >>>> even with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming >>>> what >>> you >>>> have done. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Tim Ford >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40h >>> otm >>> ail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40 >>> cdp >>> h.ca.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%4 >>> 0gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40sh >> ellworld.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp > h.ca.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40shellworld.net > > From chatter8712 at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 13:50:34 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (Shane D) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:50:34 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> Absolutely the ADA. On 2/22/09, James Pepper wrote: > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man actually > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and the hiring > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of insurance > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more than > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and besides > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what he did > was about as illegal as you can get! > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just so I know > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to his boss > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of him. > > James > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From mikefry79 at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 16:34:20 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:34:20 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> I'm really sorry to hear this James. At times it can be a very tough for people like us. I want you to know that you're not alone. Keep a stiff upper lip and a positive attitude, I'm sure something better will come along. I don't have much legal advice for you. Right now NFB's number one priority should be helping us personally to take advantage of the Fed stimulus plan. NFB should be having on-line workshops, or distributing daily newsletters advising visually impaired people about the best ways to seek gainful employment by taking advantage of the recent massive infusion of federal funds into the economy. For example, where was the money most distributed too? Should we applying for state, county, or municipal jobs? What non-profits received federal funds? What agencies practice affirmative action and received federal funds? Where's the money going? Which businesses that are receivng money will be the most likely to hire visually impaired people? How to use disability affirmative action to our advantage? I think there's a tremendous opportunity for us, that we should now be seizing. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:50 AM, Shane D wrote: > Absolutely the ADA. > > On 2/22/09, James Pepper wrote: > > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man > actually > > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and the > hiring > > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of > insurance > > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more than > > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and > besides > > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what he did > > was about as illegal as you can get! > > > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just so I > know > > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to his > boss > > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of him. > > > > James > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 23 17:51:09 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:51:09 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this stimulus plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. My impression was that there was very little benefit that would trickle down to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? From b75205 at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 18:49:40 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:49:40 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, I just wanted to cite a list of laws to them to explain to them and teach them that this man should not be doing this because I don't want to harm the non profit because they do good work but they should not be doing this because it is wrong. If this guy continues to do this, someone might just sue them and take them out of business and they do good work and so I thought that if I had a list of laws I could go to their boss and say, here, you guys have to fix this! Right now I am writing a book for APress explaining how to make documents forms and websites accessible because people just do not know how to do this work and I did this with the national voter registration form. Currently the EAC, the Elections Assistance commission thinks their form is accessible but in order to fill it out you have to have the full version of JAWS which means that the blind have to pay a poll tax of $1095 to fill out the voter registration form. I made it so they can fill it out using Adobe's "Read Out Loud" and Microsoft Narrator so the form is accessible to anyone using a PC running Windows and it can be filled out in about the same amount of time as a person with eyesight and they do not have to set accessibility in Adobe Reader, it is run with their default settings. All of the content is accessible and I can do this in all the languages supported by Adobe which is about 40 languages so this can be done worldwide. I had it tested by AFB Tech and the folks at the Jernigan Institute at the NFB and Jim Dickson the Vice President of the AAPD presented it to the EAC in October. The NFB is very much aware of what I can do and I am writing this book to explain exactly how to do this work, including how to use the software to make these documents, forms and websites so that we can solve this problem and train people properly to do the work! Doing something constructive. James I see this discrimination all the time and I trying to fix it. I think that by demonstrating what is wrong and showing how to fix it will shame people into action. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Michael Fry wrote: > I'm really sorry to hear this James. At times it can be a very tough for > people like us. I want you to know that you're not alone. Keep a stiff > upper lip and a positive attitude, I'm sure something better will come > along. I don't have much legal advice for you. > > Right now NFB's number one priority should be helping us personally to take > advantage of the Fed stimulus plan. NFB should be having on-line > workshops, > or distributing daily newsletters advising visually impaired people about > the best ways to seek gainful employment by taking advantage of the > recent massive infusion of federal funds into the economy. For example, > where was the money most distributed too? Should we applying for state, > county, or municipal jobs? What non-profits received federal funds? What > agencies practice affirmative action and received federal funds? Where's > the money going? Which businesses that are receivng money will be the most > likely to hire visually impaired people? How to use disability affirmative > action to our advantage? > > I think there's a tremendous opportunity for us, that we should now > be seizing. > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:50 AM, Shane D wrote: > > > Absolutely the ADA. > > > > On 2/22/09, James Pepper wrote: > > > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man > > actually > > > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and the > > hiring > > > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of > > insurance > > > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more > than > > > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and > > besides > > > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what he > did > > > was about as illegal as you can get! > > > > > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just so I > > know > > > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to his > > boss > > > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of > him. > > > > > > James > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > -- > > -Shane > > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > > AIM: inhaddict > > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > > Skype: chatter8712 > > Twitter: blind_geek > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From lmilholland at hotmail.com Mon Feb 23 19:18:12 2009 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:18:12 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: James, On the subject of website form accessibility, I recently applied for tickets to the Antiques road show. Luckily, I had a friend (my wife)around. Here is what I encountered: Please type the password shown in the image above into the field below, then click Submit. If you are unable to read the image, please ask a friend or request tickets via postcard instead. At least it's not the current Technology road show. Locke From pebreeze at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 19:31:25 2009 From: pebreeze at gmail.com (Philip Breeze) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:31:25 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind Message-ID: <88afe4410902231131u24e99b0evdaa62cba145c0cb3@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 year old sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an update on the situation and find it extremely difficult to understand. The facts are as follows: February 2008 -- I applied for my son to attend FSDB. May 2008 -- I received a letter disqualifying my son from attending. July 2008 -- I met with the school president and staff, non of whom evaluated my son's records. No person in the meeting could explain the reason for refusing him entry other than the evaluators must have seen something in his records to disqualify him. They determined that he was Trainable Mentally Handicap and could not answer the question of how they determined this. October 2008 -- I filed a complaint with Florida Department of Education. FDOE determined that FSDB acted unethically and ordered FSDB to show proof of findings. FSDB refused such saying they no longer had his records and that we need to reapply. FDOE also ordered FSDB to refrain from using the terminology Trainable Mentally Handicap as it is no longer used in the professional world. Here we are in February of 2009 and FSDB has yet to admit that they used prejudice in evaluating my child and will not accept responsibility of such even after being ordered by FDOE. FSDB to this day has never seen my son in person. I contacted several attorney's and learned that FSDB is notorious for being sued and spending millions of dollars to prevent children that are slow learners from attending. Yes, my son is developmentally delayed. He was born blind and has very low muscle tone (hypotonia). FSDB prefers to allow enrollment to those visually impaired children that are most easily educated and to accept deaf children. They *DO NOT WANT* young totally blind children. This could possibly impact their bragging rights to success. I have come to the realization the FSDB, a State of Florida public school discriminates against young blind children. They violate every aspect of IDEA and No Child Left behind. They accept federal assistance and private donations. They have a budget of $40 million dollars and only 700 children. They retain a high dollar attorney from Atlanta to keep children out. This is most blatant case of fraud, waste and abuse I have ever seen. They excuse themselves by saying that they do not have the money nor man power to educate children that have multiple disabilities and those children have other options. My options are to stay locally and have my child educated by a county that has few blind children and no experience with teaching them or to leave the state to attend a school elsewhere. I never in my mind thought that I would have to fight to get my child accepted to a school for blind children. These people work for the Governor of Florida, the FSDB board is appointed by Governor Crist. There in something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission is to educate blind children and they refuse to do so. My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer this sort of discrimination in our society. Philip Breeze From timandvickie at hotmail.com Mon Feb 23 19:36:55 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:36:55 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: oh ya, i love that. If you try to buy via ticketmaster for something and cant see the image you click a link and it lets you get around it somehow, cant remember exactly, but then will only let you by handicap seat tickets which are usually crap > From: lmilholland at hotmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:18:12 -0500 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > James, > On the subject of website form accessibility, I recently applied for tickets > to the Antiques road show. Luckily, I had a friend (my wife)around. Here > is what I encountered: > Please type the password shown in the image above into the field below, then > click Submit. > > If you are unable to read the image, please ask a friend or request tickets > via postcard instead. > > > At least it's not the current Technology road show. > > Locke > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Mon Feb 23 20:52:10 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:52:10 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9807F9A372D44F639C30ADBF2848AC9E@StevePC> No joke, that's what is happening with more and more web sites. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Locke Milholland" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:18 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > James, > On the subject of website form accessibility, I recently applied for > tickets > to the Antiques road show. Luckily, I had a friend (my wife)around. Here > is what I encountered: > Please type the password shown in the image above into the field below, > then > click Submit. > > If you are unable to read the image, please ask a friend or request > tickets > via postcard instead. > > > At least it's not the current Technology road show. > > Locke > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release Date: 02/23/09 07:17:00 From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Feb 23 21:22:11 2009 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:22:11 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A8EE03994EE4B47AF531226D7892379@hp048378e4c43a> So would I! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this stimulus > plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. My > impression was that there was very little benefit that would trickle down > to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From stiehm.law at juno.com Mon Feb 23 22:03:39 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:03:39 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind Message-ID: <20090223.170339.2012.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Philip, What you have related is on its face appalling and inexcusable. As long as you have done everything that they have asked you to do, I think it's time to contact the Governor's office directly. This is not the type of story that any government official wants the press to get a hold of. (Remember the foster children that got lost in the state system under the Bush administration? I'm sure the current governor would not want a similar story that will raise the specter of that incident.) In addition to the Governor's office you should contact your state legislators. Government employees are susceptible to the pressure that can be brought on them by the chief executive of the state as well as members of the legislature. He should not hesitate to pursue such a course of action. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:31:25 -0600 Philip Breeze writes: > Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 > year old > sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an > > > > something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission > is to > educate blind children and they refuse to do so. > > My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer > this > sort of discrimination in our society. > > Philip Breeze > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTK8PHAGEPqSm27C8DV01LcnWuMncPk1yOjtaNFhy1hgpkfraWJBs8/ From fairall at shellworld.net Mon Feb 23 23:05:12 2009 From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:05:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <7A8EE03994EE4B47AF531226D7892379@hp048378e4c43a> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> <7A8EE03994EE4B47AF531226D7892379@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: Don't depend on the government for anything, folks. There's no such thing as a free lunch. There are always strings attached whenever the government gets involved. If you would like to look for federal jobs, go to www.usajobs.gov. As long as you have the proper education, there should be lots of positions you can qualify for. If anyone needs help or has questions about the feds, I'll be happy to answer them. On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Michael O. Hanson wrote: > So would I! > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:51 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > >> I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this stimulus >> plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. My >> impression was that there was very little benefit that would trickle down >> to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40shellworld.net > > From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 23 23:40:04 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:40:04 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> <7A8EE03994EE4B47AF531226D7892379@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: Wow; someone's been reading too much Robert A. Heinlein--except, of course, that such a thing is not physically possible... From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Feb 23 23:54:58 2009 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:54:58 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind References: <20090223.170339.2012.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <60C80CC258DB4C98ABE24C4F1D2E3F34@hp048378e4c43a> Why not contact the press also? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" To: Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind > Philip, > > What you have related is on its face appalling and inexcusable. As long > as you have done everything that they have asked you to do, I think it's > time to contact the Governor's office directly. This is not the type of > story that any government official wants the press to get a hold of. > (Remember the foster children that got lost in the state system under the > Bush administration? I'm sure the current governor would not want a > similar story that will raise the specter of that incident.) > > In addition to the Governor's office you should contact your state > legislators. Government employees are susceptible to the pressure that > can be brought on them by the chief executive of the state as well as > members of the legislature. He should not hesitate to pursue such a > course of action. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:31:25 -0600 Philip Breeze > writes: >> Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 >> year old >> sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an >> >> >> >> something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission >> is to >> educate blind children and they refuse to do so. >> >> My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer >> this >> sort of discrimination in our society. >> >> Philip Breeze >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com >> >> > > ____________________________________________________________ > Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTK8PHAGEPqSm27C8DV01LcnWuMncPk1yOjtaNFhy1hgpkfraWJBs8/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From pebreeze at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 00:23:18 2009 From: pebreeze at gmail.com (Philip Breeze) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:23:18 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind In-Reply-To: <20090223.170339.2012.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090223.170339.2012.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <88afe4410902231623x715e110fkc671366f9661217a@mail.gmail.com> Hi Patrick, I appreciate your understanding and support. We have contacted the Governors office and we were referred back to the Florida Department of Education. This sytem is full of nepotism, the current Chair of the Board of Directors is the secretary for Florida State Representative Bill Proctor . Mr. Proctor resided on this board for 15 plus years. They appointment friends and family to keep things running smoothly and quietly. They recently replaced the president of the school with the vice president. The Florida School for the Deaf and Blind has a written policy to not accept children with extreme learning delays, it is published and known. We have a file over 2 inches thick that we have compiled with correspondence. Each person passes the buck. The school has been challenged by other parents in the past and when they in, the schoolw appeals and the case continues for years while the child pays the price. My understanding is that the school wins 70 percent of the time, parents win 11 percent and then it goes to appeal. They have very deep tax payers pockets. The question lies in what is extreme and what is the cause. They use the term "trainable mentally handicapped" as a catch all phrase. My 6 year old son taught himself to echo locate, to count to 100 by 2's he can easily spell over 100 words and can memorize children's books verbatim front to back. His kindergarten teacher is amazed at his memorization ability. However, he does lack in conceptual development and that is the thing I feel FSDB can teach him best. But, this developmental delay makes him seem retarded on paper. We recently brought up a psychologist with 50 years of experience in evaluating children with varying visual impairment. My son is lacking in conceptual development and I felt FSDB would be best suited for teaching him this. After speaking with various professionals that have close dealings with the school I have learned differently. A University of Florida Psychiatrist's son attended the school and said psychiatrist felt the school os sub standard in caring for children. The psycholigist that evaluated my son feels the same, as does an attorney that works with deaf children and has worked with the school in the past. With that information we have decided to stay local and put our money toward private education. This is truely as sad waste of tax payers money and most people have no clue. I now consider the Florida School for the Deaf and Blind, "Florida Token School". Their conscience is relieved in thinking that they are serving their community. If only Oprah could publish this story. Feel free to pass the information, we have documented the whole journey. Philip On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > Philip, > > What you have related is on its face appalling and inexcusable. As long > as you have done everything that they have asked you to do, I think it's > time to contact the Governor's office directly. This is not the type of > story that any government official wants the press to get a hold of. > (Remember the foster children that got lost in the state system under the > Bush administration? I'm sure the current governor would not want a > similar story that will raise the specter of that incident.) > > In addition to the Governor's office you should contact your state > legislators. Government employees are susceptible to the pressure that > can be brought on them by the chief executive of the state as well as > members of the legislature. He should not hesitate to pursue such a > course of action. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:31:25 -0600 Philip Breeze > writes: > > Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 > > year old > > sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an > > > > > > > > something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission > > is to > > educate blind children and they refuse to do so. > > > > My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer > > this > > sort of discrimination in our society. > > > > Philip Breeze > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now! > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTK8PHAGEPqSm27C8DV01LcnWuMncPk1yOjtaNFhy1hgpkfraWJBs8/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Feb 24 00:34:09 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:34:09 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] U.S. Dept. of Education OCR decision re computer access in Charlotte-Mecklenburg (NC) Schools, Message-ID: >From Special Ed Connection TIP OF THE WEEK: Make sure blind students have comparable access to computers A district requires students to pass a computer skills test to graduate from high school. To accommodate students with visual impairments, the district installs screen-reading and text-magnification software on select computers. Has the district fulfilled its obligations under Section 504? The answer depends on whether students with visual impairments have comparable access to the equipment. In Charlotte-Mecklenburg (NC) Schools, 51 IDELR 196 (OCR 2008), OCR found that a North Carolina district violated Section 504 by failing to accommodate students with visual impairments. OCR recognized that the district installed screen-reading software on 12 elementary school computers. However, OCR noted that six of the classrooms and common areas used by students with visual impairments did not have screen-reading software on any of their computers. "[T]he information provided by the district shows that there are several [students with visual impairments] who were still unable to access computers at the school during the" 2007-08 school year, OCR wrote. OCR indicated that the district could resolve the compliance concern by ensuring that all students with visual impairments had access to computers. Districts must ensure that the services and facilities provided to students with disabilities are comparable to those provided to their nondisabled peers. East Allen County (IN) Sch., 19 IDELR 80 (OCR 1992). Thus, if nondisabled students have ready access to computers, the district must ensure that students with visual impairments have ready access as well. Calculate the number of computers needed. The number of accessible computers required will depend on several factors, including the number of students with visual impairments and the extent to which computers are used in the curriculum. Create a list of all eligible students with visual impairments and determine the number and location of computers needed to provide them with comparable access. Remember that the comparable access requirement applies to computers in classrooms and common areas. Identify and provide necessary equipment. Some students with visual impairments may require the use of screen-reading or text-magnification software. Others may need Braille or large-print keyboards to use computers effectively. Review the needs of students with visual impairments, and determine what software and equipment are required to provide them with comparable access. Consider the need for compensatory services. If the lack of accessible computers causes students with visual impairments to fall behind their nondisabled peers, the district must consider the need for compensatory services. This is especially true when, as in Charlotte-Mecklenburg, computers are an integral part of the curriculum. Amy E. Slater, Esq. covers special education legal issues for LRP Publications. February 12, 2009 Copyright 2009(c) LRP Publications From khagen12 at q.com Tue Feb 24 01:48:18 2009 From: khagen12 at q.com (Kathleen Hagen) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:48:18 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] U.S. Dept. of Education OCR decision re computer access in Charlotte-Mecklenburg (NC) Schools, References: Message-ID: Noel, Thank you for that informative and enlightened OCR decision. Kathy Hagen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" To: Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 6:34 PM Subject: [blindlaw] U.S. Dept. of Education OCR decision re computer access in Charlotte-Mecklenburg (NC) Schools, > >From Special Ed Connection > TIP OF THE WEEK: Make sure blind students have comparable access to > computers > > A district requires students to pass a computer skills test to graduate > from high school. To accommodate students with visual impairments, the > district installs screen-reading and text-magnification software on select > computers. Has the district fulfilled its obligations under Section 504? > > The answer depends on whether students with visual impairments have > comparable access to the equipment. > > In Charlotte-Mecklenburg (NC) Schools, 51 IDELR 196 (OCR 2008), OCR found > that a North Carolina district violated Section 504 by failing to > accommodate students with visual impairments. OCR recognized that the > district installed screen-reading software on 12 elementary school > computers. However, OCR noted that six of the classrooms and common areas > used by students with visual impairments did not have screen-reading > software on any of their computers. > > "[T]he information provided by the district shows that there are several > [students with visual impairments] who were still unable to access > computers at the school during the" 2007-08 school year, OCR wrote. OCR > indicated that the district could resolve the compliance concern by > ensuring that all students with visual impairments had access to > computers. > > Districts must ensure that the services and facilities provided to > students with disabilities are comparable to those provided to their > nondisabled peers. East Allen County (IN) Sch., 19 IDELR 80 (OCR 1992). > Thus, if nondisabled students have ready access to computers, the district > must ensure that students with visual impairments have ready access as > well. > > Calculate the number of computers needed. The number of accessible > computers required will depend on several factors, including the number of > students with visual impairments and the extent to which computers are > used in the curriculum. Create a list of all eligible students with visual > impairments and determine the number and location of computers needed to > provide them with comparable access. Remember that the comparable access > requirement applies to computers in classrooms and common areas. > Identify and provide necessary equipment. Some students with visual > impairments may require the use of screen-reading or text-magnification > software. Others may need Braille or large-print keyboards to use > computers effectively. Review the needs of students with visual > impairments, and determine what software and equipment are required to > provide them with comparable access. > Consider the need for compensatory services. If the lack of accessible > computers causes students with visual impairments to fall behind their > nondisabled peers, the district must consider the need for compensatory > services. This is especially true when, as in Charlotte-Mecklenburg, > computers are an integral part of the curriculum. > Amy E. Slater, Esq. covers special education legal issues for LRP > Publications. > > February 12, 2009 > > Copyright 2009(c) LRP Publications > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 02:08:02 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:08:02 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1B4CEBD25A484D51B458A1AEBDE8724E@spike> There are actually people out there that are just plain ignorant. Several years ago a similar question was raised by a prospective landlord when I went to look at an apartment that was for rent. In his case he just didn't know and when I answered his question there was no problem. As a consultant to nonprofits I have found that many executive directors and staff in nonprofits are somewhat ignorant when it comes to business matters. It is not always a question of discrimination. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man > actually > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and the > hiring > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of > insurance > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more than > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and besides > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what he did > was about as illegal as you can get! > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just so I > know > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to his > boss > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of him. > > James > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From langlois2 at verizon.net Tue Feb 24 03:18:52 2009 From: langlois2 at verizon.net (BRIAN LANGLOIS) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:18:52 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006201c9962e$9efe55a0$2a01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> I wouldn't worry about putting them out of business, they'll survive. Also, I'm afraid they would just yes their way through an educational conversation initiated by you. Perhaps a conversation with the manager, followed by contact with their board of directors would be in order. If no attention is paid, perhaps a formal complaint should be the next step. Brian Langlois a ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > Well, I just wanted to cite a list of laws to them to explain to them and > teach them that this man should not be doing this because I don't want to > harm the non profit because they do good work but they should not be doing > this because it is wrong. If this guy continues to do this, someone might > just sue them and take them out of business and they do good work and so I > thought that if I had a list of laws I could go to their boss and say, here, > you guys have to fix this! > > Right now I am writing a book for APress explaining how to make documents > forms and websites accessible because people just do not know how to do this > work and I did this with the national voter registration form. Currently > the EAC, the Elections Assistance commission thinks their form is accessible > but in order to fill it out you have to have the full version of JAWS which > means that the blind have to pay a poll tax of $1095 to fill out the voter > registration form. I made it so they can fill it out using Adobe's "Read Out > Loud" and Microsoft Narrator so the form is accessible to anyone using a PC > running Windows and it can be filled out in about the same amount of time as > a person with eyesight and they do not have to set accessibility in Adobe > Reader, it is run with their default settings. All of the content is > accessible and I can do this in all the languages supported by Adobe which > is about 40 languages so this can be done worldwide. > > I had it tested by AFB Tech and the folks at the Jernigan Institute at the > NFB and Jim Dickson the Vice President of the AAPD presented it to the EAC > in October. The NFB is very much aware of what I can do and I am writing > this book to explain exactly how to do this work, including how to use the > software to make these documents, forms and websites so that we can solve > this problem and train people properly to do the work! > > Doing something constructive. > > James > > > I see this discrimination all the time and I trying to fix it. I think that > by demonstrating what is wrong and showing how to fix it will shame people > into action. > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Michael Fry wrote: > > > I'm really sorry to hear this James. At times it can be a very tough for > > people like us. I want you to know that you're not alone. Keep a stiff > > upper lip and a positive attitude, I'm sure something better will come > > along. I don't have much legal advice for you. > > > > Right now NFB's number one priority should be helping us personally to take > > advantage of the Fed stimulus plan. NFB should be having on-line > > workshops, > > or distributing daily newsletters advising visually impaired people about > > the best ways to seek gainful employment by taking advantage of the > > recent massive infusion of federal funds into the economy. For example, > > where was the money most distributed too? Should we applying for state, > > county, or municipal jobs? What non-profits received federal funds? What > > agencies practice affirmative action and received federal funds? Where's > > the money going? Which businesses that are receivng money will be the most > > likely to hire visually impaired people? How to use disability affirmative > > action to our advantage? > > > > I think there's a tremendous opportunity for us, that we should now > > be seizing. > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:50 AM, Shane D wrote: > > > > > Absolutely the ADA. > > > > > > On 2/22/09, James Pepper wrote: > > > > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man > > > actually > > > > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and the > > > hiring > > > > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of > > > insurance > > > > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more > > than > > > > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and > > > besides > > > > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what he > > did > > > > was about as illegal as you can get! > > > > > > > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just so I > > > know > > > > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to his > > > boss > > > > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of > > him. > > > > > > > > James > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmai l.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -Shane > > > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > > > AIM: inhaddict > > > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > > > Skype: chatter8712 > > > Twitter: blind_geek > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail. com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/langlois2%40verizo n.net > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release Date: 2/23/09 7:17 AM > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 04:07:19 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:07:19 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> Its my understanding that blind epople whwo are Social Security recipients would receive a $250 check. I'm not positive about the amount but this is the latest figure I heard. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this stimulus > plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. My > impression was that there was very little benefit that would trickle down > to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 04:39:06 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:39:06 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind In-Reply-To: <88afe4410902231131u24e99b0evdaa62cba145c0cb3@mail.gmail.com> References: <88afe4410902231131u24e99b0evdaa62cba145c0cb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <231783B2C8284ED9AEC57AC702D176A7@spike> perhaps a more enlightened approach would be to advocate for your son's education at the county level. There are many pros and cons about having blind children educated in residential settings as they do not foster full socialization with sighted children. The main benefit would be that your son would receive Braille instruction that might not be able to be provided by your county department of education. Not being familiar with the specifics of your county's education department I can't comment on all of the pros and cons but the laws generally encourage education in the least restrictive environment. I realize that I am probably opening a big can of worms here by posting this but I think that in planning for your son's education you need to be aware of all options. I also realize that I am showing some of my own biases toward forced county and local school districts to do what they are supposed to do and that is mainstream and accommodate students. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Breeze" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind > Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 year > old > sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an update on > the situation and find it extremely difficult to understand. The facts > are > as follows: > > February 2008 -- I applied for my son to attend FSDB. > May 2008 -- I received a letter disqualifying my son from attending. > July 2008 -- I met with the school president and staff, non of whom > evaluated my son's records. No person in the meeting could explain the > reason for refusing him entry other than the evaluators must have seen > something in his records to disqualify him. They determined that he was > Trainable Mentally Handicap and could not answer the question of how they > determined this. > October 2008 -- I filed a complaint with Florida Department of Education. > FDOE determined that FSDB acted unethically and ordered FSDB to show proof > of findings. FSDB refused such saying they no longer had his records and > that we need to reapply. FDOE also ordered FSDB to refrain from using the > terminology Trainable Mentally Handicap as it is no longer used in the > professional world. > > Here we are in February of 2009 and FSDB has yet to admit that they used > prejudice in evaluating my child and will not accept responsibility of > such > even after being ordered by FDOE. FSDB to this day has never seen my son > in > person. I contacted several attorney's and learned that FSDB is notorious > for being sued and spending millions of dollars to prevent children that > are > slow learners from attending. Yes, my son is developmentally delayed. He > was born blind and has very low muscle tone (hypotonia). FSDB prefers to > allow enrollment to those visually impaired children that are most easily > educated and to accept deaf children. They *DO NOT WANT* young totally > blind children. This could possibly impact their bragging rights to > success. > > I have come to the realization the FSDB, a State of Florida public school > discriminates against young blind children. They violate every aspect of > IDEA and No Child Left behind. They accept federal assistance and private > donations. They have a budget of $40 million dollars and only 700 > children. They retain a high dollar attorney from Atlanta to keep > children > out. This is most blatant case of fraud, waste and abuse I have ever > seen. > They excuse themselves by saying that they do not have the money nor man > power to educate children that have multiple disabilities and those > children > have other options. My options are to stay locally and have my child > educated by a county that has few blind children and no experience with > teaching them or to leave the state to attend a school elsewhere. > > I never in my mind thought that I would have to fight to get my child > accepted to a school for blind children. These people work for the > Governor > of Florida, the FSDB board is appointed by Governor Crist. There in > something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission is to > educate blind children and they refuse to do so. > > My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer this > sort of discrimination in our society. > > Philip Breeze > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 05:20:13 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:20:13 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com><7A8EE03994EE4B47AF531226D7892379@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: Additionally, if you are wanting to register to qualify for economic job stimulus jobs it would be a good idea to register with local employment and training programs in your area. Usually employers that receive tax credits for hiring post their jobs through state employment services or local work force development boards. Unfortunately, many local funded programs such as work force investment programs have not always done adequate outreach to blind people and others with disabilities although they are mandated to do so. On the other hand state departments of rehab or commissions don't have that great a track record for individual job development either. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leslie Fairall" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > Don't depend on the government for anything, folks. There's no such thing > as a free lunch. There are always strings attached whenever the government > gets involved. If you would like to look for federal jobs, go to > www.usajobs.gov. As long as you have the proper education, there should be > lots of positions you can qualify for. If anyone needs help or has > questions about the feds, I'll be happy to answer them. > > > On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Michael O. Hanson wrote: > >> So would I! >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:51 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination >> >> >>> I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this >>> stimulus >>> plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. My >>> impression was that there was very little benefit that would trickle >>> down >>> to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40shellworld.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From mikefry79 at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 05:25:56 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:25:56 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <006201c9962e$9efe55a0$2a01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> <006201c9962e$9efe55a0$2a01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902232125p64a28efar4d7ed48e8216fd81@mail.gmail.com> The stimulus plan is desinged to create 4 million jobs. NFB needs to cordinate a significant effort to be sure at least a small fraction of those go to people who visually impaired. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 7:18 PM, BRIAN LANGLOIS wrote: > I wouldn't worry about putting them out of business, they'll survive. > Also, I'm afraid they would just yes their way through an educational > conversation initiated by you. > Perhaps a conversation with the manager, followed by contact with their > board of directors would be in order. > If no attention is paid, perhaps a formal complaint should be the next > step. > Brian Langlois > > a > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 1:49 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > > > Well, I just wanted to cite a list of laws to them to explain to them > and > > teach them that this man should not be doing this because I don't want to > > harm the non profit because they do good work but they should not be > doing > > this because it is wrong. If this guy continues to do this, someone might > > just sue them and take them out of business and they do good work and so > I > > thought that if I had a list of laws I could go to their boss and say, > here, > > you guys have to fix this! > > > > Right now I am writing a book for APress explaining how to make documents > > forms and websites accessible because people just do not know how to do > this > > work and I did this with the national voter registration form. Currently > > the EAC, the Elections Assistance commission thinks their form is > accessible > > but in order to fill it out you have to have the full version of JAWS > which > > means that the blind have to pay a poll tax of $1095 to fill out the > voter > > registration form. I made it so they can fill it out using Adobe's "Read > Out > > Loud" and Microsoft Narrator so the form is accessible to anyone using a > PC > > running Windows and it can be filled out in about the same amount of time > as > > a person with eyesight and they do not have to set accessibility in Adobe > > Reader, it is run with their default settings. All of the content is > > accessible and I can do this in all the languages supported by Adobe > which > > is about 40 languages so this can be done worldwide. > > > > I had it tested by AFB Tech and the folks at the Jernigan Institute at > the > > NFB and Jim Dickson the Vice President of the AAPD presented it to the > EAC > > in October. The NFB is very much aware of what I can do and I am > writing > > this book to explain exactly how to do this work, including how to use > the > > software to make these documents, forms and websites so that we can solve > > this problem and train people properly to do the work! > > > > Doing something constructive. > > > > James > > > > > > I see this discrimination all the time and I trying to fix it. I think > that > > by demonstrating what is wrong and showing how to fix it will shame > people > > into action. > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Michael Fry > wrote: > > > > > I'm really sorry to hear this James. At times it can be a very tough > for > > > people like us. I want you to know that you're not alone. Keep a > stiff > > > upper lip and a positive attitude, I'm sure something better will come > > > along. I don't have much legal advice for you. > > > > > > Right now NFB's number one priority should be helping us personally to > take > > > advantage of the Fed stimulus plan. NFB should be having on-line > > > workshops, > > > or distributing daily newsletters advising visually impaired people > about > > > the best ways to seek gainful employment by taking advantage of the > > > recent massive infusion of federal funds into the economy. For > example, > > > where was the money most distributed too? Should we applying for > state, > > > county, or municipal jobs? What non-profits received federal funds? > What > > > agencies practice affirmative action and received federal funds? > Where's > > > the money going? Which businesses that are receivng money will be the > most > > > likely to hire visually impaired people? How to use disability > affirmative > > > action to our advantage? > > > > > > I think there's a tremendous opportunity for us, that we should now > > > be seizing. > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:50 AM, Shane D > wrote: > > > > > > > Absolutely the ADA. > > > > > > > > On 2/22/09, James Pepper wrote: > > > > > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man > > > > actually > > > > > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and > the > > > > hiring > > > > > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of > > > > insurance > > > > > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more > > > than > > > > > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and > > > > besides > > > > > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what > he > > > did > > > > > was about as illegal as you can get! > > > > > > > > > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just > so I > > > > know > > > > > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to > his > > > > boss > > > > > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of > > > him. > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmai > l.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -Shane > > > > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > > > > AIM: inhaddict > > > > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > > > > Skype: chatter8712 > > > > Twitter: blind_geek > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail. > com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/langlois2%40verizo > n.net > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release Date: 2/23/09 > 7:17 AM > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 05:54:09 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:54:09 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <006201c9962e$9efe55a0$2a01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> <006201c9962e$9efe55a0$2a01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> Message-ID: <011AFEE374654939B0BE8F3F23ADF5C7@spike> Unfortunately, there are many nonprofits that think they are exempt from or above the law because they are nonprofits. A letter from an attorney or a civil rights complaint won't put an organization out of business and sometimes it is the wake-up call that they need. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "BRIAN LANGLOIS" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > I wouldn't worry about putting them out of business, they'll survive. > Also, I'm afraid they would just yes their way through an educational > conversation initiated by you. > Perhaps a conversation with the manager, followed by contact with their > board of directors would be in order. > If no attention is paid, perhaps a formal complaint should be the next > step. > Brian Langlois > > a > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 1:49 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > >> Well, I just wanted to cite a list of laws to them to explain to them and >> teach them that this man should not be doing this because I don't want to >> harm the non profit because they do good work but they should not be >> doing >> this because it is wrong. If this guy continues to do this, someone might >> just sue them and take them out of business and they do good work and so >> I >> thought that if I had a list of laws I could go to their boss and say, > here, >> you guys have to fix this! >> >> Right now I am writing a book for APress explaining how to make documents >> forms and websites accessible because people just do not know how to do > this >> work and I did this with the national voter registration form. Currently >> the EAC, the Elections Assistance commission thinks their form is > accessible >> but in order to fill it out you have to have the full version of JAWS > which >> means that the blind have to pay a poll tax of $1095 to fill out the >> voter >> registration form. I made it so they can fill it out using Adobe's "Read > Out >> Loud" and Microsoft Narrator so the form is accessible to anyone using a > PC >> running Windows and it can be filled out in about the same amount of time > as >> a person with eyesight and they do not have to set accessibility in Adobe >> Reader, it is run with their default settings. All of the content is >> accessible and I can do this in all the languages supported by Adobe >> which >> is about 40 languages so this can be done worldwide. >> >> I had it tested by AFB Tech and the folks at the Jernigan Institute at >> the >> NFB and Jim Dickson the Vice President of the AAPD presented it to the >> EAC >> in October. The NFB is very much aware of what I can do and I am >> writing >> this book to explain exactly how to do this work, including how to use >> the >> software to make these documents, forms and websites so that we can solve >> this problem and train people properly to do the work! >> >> Doing something constructive. >> >> James >> >> >> I see this discrimination all the time and I trying to fix it. I think > that >> by demonstrating what is wrong and showing how to fix it will shame >> people >> into action. >> >> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Michael Fry >> wrote: >> >> > I'm really sorry to hear this James. At times it can be a very tough > for >> > people like us. I want you to know that you're not alone. Keep a >> > stiff >> > upper lip and a positive attitude, I'm sure something better will come >> > along. I don't have much legal advice for you. >> > >> > Right now NFB's number one priority should be helping us personally to > take >> > advantage of the Fed stimulus plan. NFB should be having on-line >> > workshops, >> > or distributing daily newsletters advising visually impaired people > about >> > the best ways to seek gainful employment by taking advantage of the >> > recent massive infusion of federal funds into the economy. For >> > example, >> > where was the money most distributed too? Should we applying for >> > state, >> > county, or municipal jobs? What non-profits received federal funds? > What >> > agencies practice affirmative action and received federal funds? > Where's >> > the money going? Which businesses that are receivng money will be the > most >> > likely to hire visually impaired people? How to use disability > affirmative >> > action to our advantage? >> > >> > I think there's a tremendous opportunity for us, that we should now >> > be seizing. >> > >> > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:50 AM, Shane D wrote: >> > >> > > Absolutely the ADA. >> > > >> > > On 2/22/09, James Pepper wrote: >> > > > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man >> > > actually >> > > > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and >> > > > the >> > > hiring >> > > > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of >> > > insurance >> > > > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more >> > than >> > > > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and >> > > besides >> > > > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what > he >> > did >> > > > was about as illegal as you can get! >> > > > >> > > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just > so I >> > > know >> > > > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to > his >> > > boss >> > > > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of >> > him. >> > > > >> > > > James >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > blindlaw mailing list >> > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >> > > > blindlaw: >> > > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmai > l.com >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > -Shane >> > > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com >> > > AIM: inhaddict >> > > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com >> > > Skype: chatter8712 >> > > Twitter: blind_geek >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > blindlaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > > blindlaw: >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail. > com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > blindlaw: >> > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/langlois2%40verizo > n.net >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release Date: 2/23/09 > 7:17 AM >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 13:25:09 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 05:25:09 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> References: <754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> Message-ID: <20090224132509.GK91686@yumi.bluecherry.net> I heard specifically SSI and SSDI. I haven't heard that all people receiving social security do. I am considered a "disabled child adult" receiving social security through my deceased father. From what I understand about this (which isn't much, because frankly the SSA people I've talked to don't understand this either), MOST of what benefits exist for the blind--such as employment incentives--just do not exist for me. Lack of understanding on their part has resulted in penalties on my part in the form of withholdings to undo their mistakes, and I am warned that if I make even as much as part-time minimum wage I will quickly lose all social security and medicare benefits as well. (That situation has also gotten messed up..) Jim, can you shed some light on this by chance? I can't get one from the SSA. Joseph On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 08:07:19PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Its my understanding that blind epople whwo are Social Security > recipients would receive a $250 check. I'm not positive about the amount > but this is the latest figure I heard. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:51 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > >> I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this >> stimulus plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. >> My impression was that there was very little benefit that would >> trickle down to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 13:26:01 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 05:26:01 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> <754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> Message-ID: As an interesting caveat to that, I did not receive the last stimulus check, because my government student loans garnished it. Even though I had a a deferment with them, apparently they still consider me in arrears and therefore I didn't get Bush's stimulus, and probably won't get this one either. Just a heads-up for those others of you who might have GSL. From pebreeze at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 14:47:57 2009 From: pebreeze at gmail.com (Philip Breeze) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:47:57 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind In-Reply-To: <231783B2C8284ED9AEC57AC702D176A7@spike> References: <88afe4410902231131u24e99b0evdaa62cba145c0cb3@mail.gmail.com> <231783B2C8284ED9AEC57AC702D176A7@spike> Message-ID: <88afe4410902240647g22637c84gb6f6ea8c0eef7dea@mail.gmail.com> Chuck, in this case I agree with you. After speaking with professionals familiar with FSDB we have decided that it would benefit my son to stay where we are and he will remain in our local public school system. We have received much more assistance and friendly help than FSDB has ever attempted. It has been my experience that FSDB functions with the same attitude as the large corporations and Banks of America. They are more concerned with padding their pockets than doing the jobs they are paid to do. Thank you for your advice. On 2/23/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > perhaps a more enlightened approach would be to advocate for your son's > education at the county level. There are many pros and cons about having > blind children educated in residential settings as they do not foster full > socialization with sighted children. The main benefit would be that your son > would receive Braille instruction that might not be able to be provided by > your county department of education. Not being familiar with the specifics > of your county's education department I can't comment on all of the pros and > cons but the laws generally encourage education in the least restrictive > environment. I realize that I am probably opening a big can of worms here by > posting this but I think that in planning for your son's education you need > to be aware of all options. I also realize that I am showing some of my own > biases toward forced county and local school districts to do what they are > supposed to do and that is mainstream and accommodate students. > Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal > 1237 P Street > Fresno ca 93721 > 559-266-9237 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Philip Breeze" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:31 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind > > >> Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 year >> old >> sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an update on >> the situation and find it extremely difficult to understand. The facts >> are >> as follows: >> >> February 2008 -- I applied for my son to attend FSDB. >> May 2008 -- I received a letter disqualifying my son from attending. >> July 2008 -- I met with the school president and staff, non of whom >> evaluated my son's records. No person in the meeting could explain the >> reason for refusing him entry other than the evaluators must have seen >> something in his records to disqualify him. They determined that he was >> Trainable Mentally Handicap and could not answer the question of how they >> determined this. >> October 2008 -- I filed a complaint with Florida Department of Education. >> FDOE determined that FSDB acted unethically and ordered FSDB to show proof >> of findings. FSDB refused such saying they no longer had his records and >> that we need to reapply. FDOE also ordered FSDB to refrain from using the >> terminology Trainable Mentally Handicap as it is no longer used in the >> professional world. >> >> Here we are in February of 2009 and FSDB has yet to admit that they used >> prejudice in evaluating my child and will not accept responsibility of >> such >> even after being ordered by FDOE. FSDB to this day has never seen my son >> in >> person. I contacted several attorney's and learned that FSDB is notorious >> for being sued and spending millions of dollars to prevent children that >> are >> slow learners from attending. Yes, my son is developmentally delayed. He >> was born blind and has very low muscle tone (hypotonia). FSDB prefers to >> allow enrollment to those visually impaired children that are most easily >> educated and to accept deaf children. They *DO NOT WANT* young totally >> blind children. This could possibly impact their bragging rights to >> success. >> >> I have come to the realization the FSDB, a State of Florida public school >> discriminates against young blind children. They violate every aspect of >> IDEA and No Child Left behind. They accept federal assistance and private >> donations. They have a budget of $40 million dollars and only 700 >> children. They retain a high dollar attorney from Atlanta to keep >> children >> out. This is most blatant case of fraud, waste and abuse I have ever >> seen. >> They excuse themselves by saying that they do not have the money nor man >> power to educate children that have multiple disabilities and those >> children >> have other options. My options are to stay locally and have my child >> educated by a county that has few blind children and no experience with >> teaching them or to leave the state to attend a school elsewhere. >> >> I never in my mind thought that I would have to fight to get my child >> accepted to a school for blind children. These people work for the >> Governor >> of Florida, the FSDB board is appointed by Governor Crist. There in >> something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission is to >> educate blind children and they refuse to do so. >> >> My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer this >> sort of discrimination in our society. >> >> Philip Breeze >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > From JMcCarthy at nfb.org Tue Feb 24 17:04:23 2009 From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org (McCarthy, Jim) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:04:23 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <20090224132509.GK91686@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B26D5B6@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> There are two lines of inquiry in this thread I will address. The first, is Mr. Carter's understanding of the Disabled Adult Child status under Social Security. It is an unfortunate truth that all too often, staff at the Social Security Administration does a terrible job explaining their disability programs. The fact is probably that they really don't know these programs themselves and cannot, therefore explain them to us. Basically though Disabled Adult Child (DAC) status is exactly like SSDI. The primary difference is that a DAC cannot keep benefits if he or she marries someone who does not receive social security benefits. Even Supplemental Security Income benefits terminates DAC status as would social security benefits to a student under 18. Therefore, if one is a blind DAC, blindness rules including the higher SGA amount apply. Now, I will address the stimulus. There is a $250 amount to be paid to every Social Security beneficiary, or Supplemental Security Income recipient. Getting both will not get a person two $250 payments though. These are supposed to be provided between now and the end of May though it will take some time to set up the payment mechanism so it seems that most of the payments will be offered in April and May. Other funding in the legislation goes to state government agencies. Vocational Rehabilitation receives funding. This funding comes to states based on the rehab funding formula but there is no match requirement. I am not sure how Mark would prefer the funding to be given, but there is a general government aversion to handing people sums of money and letting them do as they wish. It would be pretty much impossible to track how the money was used if that were done. Those of us who deal with rehab though should start seeing a greater willingness from those agencies to serve or at least lack of money should be less of a barrier. I think that the allotment is about 15% of the total that goes to rehab, though the funding formula may create strange results in some states. The fact remains though that this is money to the states for rehab with no strings! The other disability related funding is less directly related to employment. It includes money for education and health care. Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 8:25 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination I heard specifically SSI and SSDI. I haven't heard that all people receiving social security do. I am considered a "disabled child adult" receiving social security through my deceased father. From what I understand about this (which isn't much, because frankly the SSA people I've talked to don't understand this either), MOST of what benefits exist for the blind--such as employment incentives--just do not exist for me. Lack of understanding on their part has resulted in penalties on my part in the form of withholdings to undo their mistakes, and I am warned that if I make even as much as part-time minimum wage I will quickly lose all social security and medicare benefits as well. (That situation has also gotten messed up..) Jim, can you shed some light on this by chance? I can't get one from the SSA. Joseph On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 08:07:19PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Its my understanding that blind epople whwo are Social Security > recipients would receive a $250 check. I'm not positive about the > amount but this is the latest figure I heard. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:51 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > >> I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this >> stimulus plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. >> My impression was that there was very little benefit that would >> trickle down to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjose > ph%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf b.org From b75205 at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 20:30:23 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:30:23 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Locke: I see this all the time and I describe this stuff in the book, and I think that when people realize the hoops we have to jump through just to read simple stuff, then there will be a call to change. I have a Congrssman who is going to make a big fuss over all this and so i will see what kind of trouble I can cause in Washington! This stuff is just a disgrace, thats all it is. James On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Locke Milholland wrote: > James, > On the subject of website form accessibility, I recently applied for > tickets to the Antiques road show. Luckily, I had a friend (my wife)around. > Here is what I encountered: > Please type the password shown in the image above into the field below, > then click Submit. > > If you are unable to read the image, please ask a friend or request tickets > via postcard instead. > > > At least it's not the current Technology road show. > > Locke > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 20:36:12 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:36:12 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So you are saying that ticketmaster is categorizing all the blind into one class and designating seats based on their ability to use their website, instead of allowing them to choose where they want to sit. Ticketmaster is assuming that we cannot choose where we want to sit? I think you guys should look into this type of profiling based on their website. Thats a decision they made by coding that into the website, to profile the blind. James On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 1:36 PM, tim and vickie shaw < timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote: > > oh ya, i love that. If you try to buy via ticketmaster for something and > cant see the image you click a link and it lets you get around it somehow, > cant remember exactly, but then will only let you by handicap seat tickets > which are usually crap > > > From: lmilholland at hotmail.com > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:18:12 -0500 > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > > > James, > > On the subject of website form accessibility, I recently applied for > tickets > > to the Antiques road show. Luckily, I had a friend (my wife)around. > Here > > is what I encountered: > > Please type the password shown in the image above into the field below, > then > > click Submit. > > > > If you are unable to read the image, please ask a friend or request > tickets > > via postcard instead. > > > > > > At least it's not the current Technology road show. > > > > Locke > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live™: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. > > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From timandvickie at hotmail.com Tue Feb 24 21:45:02 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:45:02 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: its been a few years since I bought tickets on there so I Cant say for sure they still do it, but ya. it limited your seating choices big time. Kinda reminds me of when i went to see David LEtterman when i was in NY, I was toward the front of the line to get in so we would have got a pretty good seat, but tehy pulled me aside when they saw my cane and said i ddnt have to wait in line theyd go ahead and take me in and seat me and my wife. They took us in and say us in the back of the theater with a little TV infront of me hanging form the ceilign that I could even see as if that was gonna help me see lol. Woudla been way better off sitting up front. > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:36:12 -0600 > From: b75205 at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > So you are saying that ticketmaster is categorizing all the blind into one > class and designating seats based on their ability to use their website, > instead of allowing them to choose where they want to sit. Ticketmaster is > assuming that we cannot choose where we want to sit? I think you guys > should look into this type of profiling based on their website. Thats a > decision they made by coding that into the website, to profile the blind. > > James > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 1:36 PM, tim and vickie shaw < > timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > oh ya, i love that. If you try to buy via ticketmaster for something and > > cant see the image you click a link and it lets you get around it somehow, > > cant remember exactly, but then will only let you by handicap seat tickets > > which are usually crap > > > > > From: lmilholland at hotmail.com > > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:18:12 -0500 > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > > > > > James, > > > On the subject of website form accessibility, I recently applied for > > tickets > > > to the Antiques road show. Luckily, I had a friend (my wife)around. > > Here > > > is what I encountered: > > > Please type the password shown in the image above into the field below, > > then > > > click Submit. > > > > > > If you are unable to read the image, please ask a friend or request > > tickets > > > via postcard instead. > > > > > > > > > At least it's not the current Technology road show. > > > > > > Locke > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows Live™: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. > > > > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_022009 From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 23:04:00 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 15:04:00 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com><754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> Message-ID: <630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> the same thing happened to a friend who owed back taxes to the IRS. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:26 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > As an interesting caveat to that, I did not receive the last stimulus > check, because my government student loans garnished it. Even though I > had a a deferment with them, apparently they still consider me in arrears > and therefore I didn't get Bush's stimulus, and probably won't get this > one either. Just a heads-up for those others of you who might have GSL. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From rjs059 at peoplepc.com Wed Feb 25 01:30:14 2009 From: rjs059 at peoplepc.com (rjs059 at peoplepc.com) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 20:30:14 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind References: <20090223.170339.2012.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <88afe4410902231623x715e110fkc671366f9661217a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <024201c996e8$9ce7b620$4781fe04@rjige047kjawst> You made the best decision for your son. Sincerely, RJ Sandefur ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Breeze" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind > Hi Patrick, I appreciate your understanding and support. We have > contacted > the Governors office and we were referred back to the Florida Department > of > Education. This sytem is full of nepotism, the current Chair of the Board > of Directors is the secretary for Florida State Representative Bill > Proctor > . Mr. Proctor resided on this board for 15 plus years. They appointment > friends and family to keep things running smoothly and quietly. They > recently replaced the president of the school with the vice president. > > The Florida School for the Deaf and Blind has a written policy to not > accept > children with extreme learning delays, it is published and known. We have > a > file over 2 inches thick that we have compiled with correspondence. Each > person passes the buck. The school has been challenged by other parents > in > the past and when they in, the schoolw appeals and the case continues for > years while the child pays the price. My understanding is that the school > wins 70 percent of the time, parents win 11 percent and then it goes to > appeal. They have very deep tax payers pockets. > > The question lies in what is extreme and what is the cause. They use the > term "trainable mentally handicapped" as a catch all phrase. My 6 year > old > son taught himself to echo locate, to count to 100 by 2's he can easily > spell over 100 words and can memorize children's books verbatim front to > back. His kindergarten teacher is amazed at his memorization ability. > However, he does lack in conceptual development and that is the thing I > feel > FSDB can teach him best. But, this developmental delay makes him seem > retarded on paper. > > We recently brought up a psychologist with 50 years of experience in > evaluating children with varying visual impairment. My son is lacking in > conceptual development and I felt FSDB would be best suited for teaching > him > this. After speaking with various professionals that have close dealings > with the school I have learned differently. A University of Florida > Psychiatrist's son attended the school and said psychiatrist felt the > school > os sub standard in caring for children. The psycholigist that evaluated > my > son feels the same, as does an attorney that works with deaf children and > has worked with the school in the past. With that information we have > decided to stay local and put our money toward private education. > > This is truely as sad waste of tax payers money and most people have no > clue. I now consider the Florida School for the Deaf and Blind, "Florida > Token School". Their conscience is relieved in thinking that they are > serving their community. > > If only Oprah could publish this story. Feel free to pass the > information, > we have documented the whole journey. > > Philip > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Patrick H. Stiehm > wrote: > >> Philip, >> >> What you have related is on its face appalling and inexcusable. As long >> as you have done everything that they have asked you to do, I think it's >> time to contact the Governor's office directly. This is not the type of >> story that any government official wants the press to get a hold of. >> (Remember the foster children that got lost in the state system under the >> Bush administration? I'm sure the current governor would not want a >> similar story that will raise the specter of that incident.) >> >> In addition to the Governor's office you should contact your state >> legislators. Government employees are susceptible to the pressure that >> can be brought on them by the chief executive of the state as well as >> members of the legislature. He should not hesitate to pursue such a >> course of action. >> >> Patrick H. Stiehm >> Stiehm Law Office >> Alexandria, VA 22309 >> 703-360-1089 (Voice) >> 703-935-8266 (Fax) >> >> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:31:25 -0600 Philip Breeze >> writes: >> > Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 >> > year old >> > sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an >> > >> > >> > >> > something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission >> > is to >> > educate blind children and they refuse to do so. >> > >> > My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer >> > this >> > sort of discrimination in our society. >> > >> > Philip Breeze >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for blindlaw: >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >> no.com >> > >> > >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now! >> >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTK8PHAGEPqSm27C8DV01LcnWuMncPk1yOjtaNFhy1hgpkfraWJBs8/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1970 - Release Date: 2/24/2009 1:35 PM From mikefry79 at gmail.com Wed Feb 25 03:54:39 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:54:39 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind In-Reply-To: <024201c996e8$9ce7b620$4781fe04@rjige047kjawst> References: <20090223.170339.2012.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <88afe4410902231623x715e110fkc671366f9661217a@mail.gmail.com> <024201c996e8$9ce7b620$4781fe04@rjige047kjawst> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902241954u702aa295r4e21bbf6f9984b2@mail.gmail.com> I likewise am sorry to hear about this situation Philip. On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 5:30 PM, wrote: > You made the best decision for your son. Sincerely, RJ Sandefur > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Breeze" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:23 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind > > > Hi Patrick, I appreciate your understanding and support. We have >> contacted >> the Governors office and we were referred back to the Florida Department >> of >> Education. This sytem is full of nepotism, the current Chair of the Board >> of Directors is the secretary for Florida State Representative Bill >> Proctor >> . Mr. Proctor resided on this board for 15 plus years. They appointment >> friends and family to keep things running smoothly and quietly. They >> recently replaced the president of the school with the vice president. >> >> The Florida School for the Deaf and Blind has a written policy to not >> accept >> children with extreme learning delays, it is published and known. We have >> a >> file over 2 inches thick that we have compiled with correspondence. Each >> person passes the buck. The school has been challenged by other parents >> in >> the past and when they in, the schoolw appeals and the case continues for >> years while the child pays the price. My understanding is that the school >> wins 70 percent of the time, parents win 11 percent and then it goes to >> appeal. They have very deep tax payers pockets. >> >> The question lies in what is extreme and what is the cause. They use the >> term "trainable mentally handicapped" as a catch all phrase. My 6 year >> old >> son taught himself to echo locate, to count to 100 by 2's he can easily >> spell over 100 words and can memorize children's books verbatim front to >> back. His kindergarten teacher is amazed at his memorization ability. >> However, he does lack in conceptual development and that is the thing I >> feel >> FSDB can teach him best. But, this developmental delay makes him seem >> retarded on paper. >> >> We recently brought up a psychologist with 50 years of experience in >> evaluating children with varying visual impairment. My son is lacking in >> conceptual development and I felt FSDB would be best suited for teaching >> him >> this. After speaking with various professionals that have close dealings >> with the school I have learned differently. A University of Florida >> Psychiatrist's son attended the school and said psychiatrist felt the >> school >> os sub standard in caring for children. The psycholigist that evaluated >> my >> son feels the same, as does an attorney that works with deaf children and >> has worked with the school in the past. With that information we have >> decided to stay local and put our money toward private education. >> >> This is truely as sad waste of tax payers money and most people have no >> clue. I now consider the Florida School for the Deaf and Blind, "Florida >> Token School". Their conscience is relieved in thinking that they are >> serving their community. >> >> If only Oprah could publish this story. Feel free to pass the >> information, >> we have documented the whole journey. >> >> Philip >> >> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Patrick H. Stiehm > >wrote: >> >> Philip, >>> >>> What you have related is on its face appalling and inexcusable. As long >>> as you have done everything that they have asked you to do, I think it's >>> time to contact the Governor's office directly. This is not the type of >>> story that any government official wants the press to get a hold of. >>> (Remember the foster children that got lost in the state system under the >>> Bush administration? I'm sure the current governor would not want a >>> similar story that will raise the specter of that incident.) >>> >>> In addition to the Governor's office you should contact your state >>> legislators. Government employees are susceptible to the pressure that >>> can be brought on them by the chief executive of the state as well as >>> members of the legislature. He should not hesitate to pursue such a >>> course of action. >>> >>> Patrick H. Stiehm >>> Stiehm Law Office >>> Alexandria, VA 22309 >>> 703-360-1089 (Voice) >>> 703-935-8266 (Fax) >>> >>> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:31:25 -0600 Philip Breeze >>> writes: >>> > Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 >>> > year old >>> > sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission >>> > is to >>> > educate blind children and they refuse to do so. >>> > >>> > My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer >>> > this >>> > sort of discrimination in our society. >>> > >>> > Philip Breeze >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for blindlaw: >>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >>> no.com< >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju%0Ano.com >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> ____________________________________________________________ >>> Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now! >>> >>> >>> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTK8PHAGEPqSm27C8DV01LcnWuMncPk1yOjtaNFhy1hgpkfraWJBs8/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com >> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1970 - Release Date: 2/24/2009 > 1:35 PM > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 12:10:13 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 04:10:13 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have neer understood the relationship that seems to exist in the minds of sighted people between blindness and needing preferential seating. Mere blindness alone would not cause any such need, that I can figure out, but another disability that affects walking, balance or whatever might. Why must a blind person sit in a certain area of a theater, or board a plane first, or not sit in an exit row? If the argument is, "It will take you longer to find your seat because you can't see," that's plainly absurd, as anyone who's observed someone trying to find their car in a parking garage will attest to. So, why am I bombarded with requests that I stick out like a sore thumb by not only having someone lead me about by the hand, but also having that someone make sure I'm all safe in my special little seat? What gives? From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 12:12:01 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 04:12:01 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com><754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> <630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> Message-ID: Corollary: Can a government student loan garnish my SSDI? If that happens, there goes the neighborhood--anyone wanna buy a kidney? :) From angie.matney at gmail.com Wed Feb 25 14:46:44 2009 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:46:44 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] OT Seating Message-ID: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> I know some people with residual vision who prefer to sit where they can actually see what's going on. For this reason, they might ask for accessible seating, though this obviously might be different from seating that is most accessible for people who use wheel chairs. This part of the message is not directed at Mark. I wonder if we could try to have the subject lines reflecting the topic under discussion. It looks like several threads are being discussed under "job discrimination." Thanks for making a law student's life a bit less chaotic. :) Angie Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination From: Mark BurningHawk Date: 02/25/2009 7:47 AM I have neer understood the relationship that seems to exist in the minds of sighted people between blindness and needing preferential seating. Mere blindness alone would not cause any such need, that I can figure out, but another disability that affects walking, balance or whatever might. Why must a blind person sit in a certain area of a theater, or board a plane first, or not sit in an exit row? If the argument is, "It will take you longer to find your seat because you can't see," that's plainly absurd, as anyone who's observed someone trying to find their car in a parking garage will attest to. So, why am I bombarded with requests that I stick out like a sore thumb by not only having someone lead me about by the hand, but also having that someone make sure I'm all safe in my special little seat? What gives? _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Feb 25 16:40:30 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:40:30 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Employment Opportunity Message-ID: ________________________________ From: Members of the GPSLD [mailto:GOVPUBDIV at MAIL.ABANET.ORG] On Behalf Of ABA Government and Public Sector Lawyers Division Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 8:38 AM To: GOVPUBDIV at MAIL.ABANET.ORG Subject: FW: Employment Opportunity GPSLD Member: Please see below about an employment opportunity for lawyers with experience with defending or prosecuting sexual assault cases. If interested, please send your resume to Cynthia Rapp - cjrapp at supremecourt.gov - by March 20, 2009. Here is a unique and very important career opportunity for civilian attorneys who are especially skilled in the areas of special victim and sexual assault prosecution and defense. The Secretary of the Army has authorized the Judge Advocate General of the Army, LTG Scott Black, to recruit and appoint a total of seven Highly Qualified Experts in the above mentioned legal skill areas. These legal training teams share their expert knowledge of prosecution and defense of special victim and sexual assault cases with the US Army Judge Advocate prosecutors and defense attorneys responsible for prosecuting and defending Soldiers at trial by Court Martial. No prior experience with Courts Martial is required. The seven Highly Qualified Experts will be a part of a legal team consisting of active duty Judge Advocates who are experts in military justice. This legal training team will provide instruction and training at The Judge Advocate General's Legal Center and School, located on the grounds of the University of Virginia. The legal training team also travels to present the Trial Counsel Assistance Program and the Defense Counsel Assistance Program to Judge Advocate prosecutors and defense attorneys stationed abroad. The Highly Qualified Expert positions are civilian positions. The Judge Advocate General of the Army seeks attorneys who possess uncommon and recognized skills and experience associated with either trying special victim/sexual assault cases or with developing the advocacy skills for those trying these cases. For example, a state prosecutor with experience in supervising a special victim unit would possess an ideal level of expertise sought for these seven HQE positions. To assist us with finding the very best candidates to meet this important mission, we ask that you forward the contact information of those uniquely qualified candidates that you believe may be interested in serving in this special role. We also know there are current and former/retired Judge Advocates who may be qualified for such positions, although given the focus above this pool will be small. If interested, please forward their names as well. It is worth noting that potential military candidates must be fully separated from the Service; they may not be on terminal leave upon entering the position. From APrevost at Sidley.com Wed Feb 25 17:00:41 2009 From: APrevost at Sidley.com (Prevost, Ann Marie) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:00:41 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] OT Seating In-Reply-To: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> References: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have given up on theaters/stadiums that have an office for the disabled to get tickets for my daughter who is visually impaired. I have no idea how they decide on what seats to give the visually impaired, but they are simply ridiculous. They are so far away from the stage it is useless. Luckily I live in New York and I go directly to the Theater to get tickets. Of course this means we are paying a premium as seats close up are premium. Not fair. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Angie Matney Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:47 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] OT Seating I know some people with residual vision who prefer to sit where they can actually see what's going on. For this reason, they might ask for accessible seating, though this obviously might be different from seating that is most accessible for people who use wheel chairs. This part of the message is not directed at Mark. I wonder if we could try to have the subject lines reflecting the topic under discussion. It looks like several threads are being discussed under "job discrimination." Thanks for making a law student's life a bit less chaotic. :) Angie Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination From: Mark BurningHawk Date: 02/25/2009 7:47 AM I have neer understood the relationship that seems to exist in the minds of sighted people between blindness and needing preferential seating. Mere blindness alone would not cause any such need, that I can figure out, but another disability that affects walking, balance or whatever might. Why must a blind person sit in a certain area of a theater, or board a plane first, or not sit in an exit row? If the argument is, "It will take you longer to find your seat because you can't see," that's plainly absurd, as anyone who's observed someone trying to find their car in a parking garage will attest to. So, why am I bombarded with requests that I stick out like a sore thumb by not only having someone lead me about by the hand, but also having that someone make sure I'm all safe in my special little seat? What gives? _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aprevost%40sidley.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: To comply with certain U.S. Treasury regulations, we inform you that, unless expressly stated otherwise, any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication, including attachments, was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding any penalties that may be imposed on such taxpayer by the Internal Revenue Service. In addition, if any such tax advice is used or referred to by other parties in promoting, marketing or recommending any partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement, then (i) the advice should be construed as written in connection with the promotion or marketing by others of the transaction(s) or matter(s) addressed in this communication and (ii) the taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayer's particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor. **************************************************************************************************** This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately. **************************************************************************************************** From timandvickie at hotmail.com Wed Feb 25 17:05:21 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:05:21 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] OT Seating In-Reply-To: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> References: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> Message-ID: oh i have some vision to, and i do prefer a close seat so i can see, but they dont take that into account when they designate accessible seating. As far as they are concerned accessible seating is spaces for wheel chairs or seats near the back of the theater. I tried to go to a baseball game awhile back and we had already bought tickets and I asked the box office if they had any accessible seating that I could change my tickets to and they said they did but id have to pay a hire ticket cost because tehy only had the accessible seatign in a certain section that was a hight cost section. > From: angie.matney at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:46:44 -0500 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] OT Seating > > I know some people with residual vision who prefer to sit where they can actually see what's going on. For this reason, they might ask for accessible seating, though this obviously might be different from seating that is most accessible for people who use wheel chairs. > > This part of the message is not directed at Mark. I wonder if we could try to have the subject lines reflecting the topic under discussion. It looks like several threads are being discussed under "job discrimination." > > Thanks for making a law student's life a bit less chaotic. :) > > Angie > > Sent from my Nokia N82. > > -original message- > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > From: Mark BurningHawk > Date: 02/25/2009 7:47 AM > > I have neer understood the relationship that seems to exist in the > minds of sighted people between blindness and needing preferential > seating. Mere blindness alone would not cause any such need, that I > can figure out, but another disability that affects walking, balance > or whatever might. Why must a blind person sit in a certain area of a > theater, or board a plane first, or not sit in an exit row? If the > argument is, "It will take you longer to find your seat because you > can't see," that's plainly absurd, as anyone who's observed someone > trying to find their car in a parking garage will attest to. So, why > am I bombarded with requests that I stick out like a sore thumb by not > only having someone lead me about by the hand, but also having that > someone make sure I'm all safe in my special little seat? What gives? > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009 From APrevost at Sidley.com Wed Feb 25 18:07:56 2009 From: APrevost at Sidley.com (Prevost, Ann Marie) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 13:07:56 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] OT Seating In-Reply-To: References: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes it takes tremendous time and effort to get a reasonable seat at a somewhat reasonable price. It is in fact, exhausting. Sadly many people take advantage of disabled seating, parking and other perceived "perks" making those who might help the visually impaired with reasonable seating skeptical and often unwilling to help. It takes a monumental effort to get to the right person and have them listen. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 12:05 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] OT Seating oh i have some vision to, and i do prefer a close seat so i can see, but they dont take that into account when they designate accessible seating. As far as they are concerned accessible seating is spaces for wheel chairs or seats near the back of the theater. I tried to go to a baseball game awhile back and we had already bought tickets and I asked the box office if they had any accessible seating that I could change my tickets to and they said they did but id have to pay a hire ticket cost because tehy only had the accessible seatign in a certain section that was a hight cost section. > From: angie.matney at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:46:44 -0500 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] OT Seating > > I know some people with residual vision who prefer to sit where they can actually see what's going on. For this reason, they might ask for accessible seating, though this obviously might be different from seating that is most accessible for people who use wheel chairs. > > This part of the message is not directed at Mark. I wonder if we could try to have the subject lines reflecting the topic under discussion. It looks like several threads are being discussed under "job discrimination." > > Thanks for making a law student's life a bit less chaotic. :) > > Angie > > Sent from my Nokia N82. > > -original message- > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > From: Mark BurningHawk > Date: 02/25/2009 7:47 AM > > I have neer understood the relationship that seems to exist in the > minds of sighted people between blindness and needing preferential > seating. Mere blindness alone would not cause any such need, that I > can figure out, but another disability that affects walking, balance > or whatever might. Why must a blind person sit in a certain area of a > theater, or board a plane first, or not sit in an exit row? If the > argument is, "It will take you longer to find your seat because you > can't see," that's plainly absurd, as anyone who's observed someone > trying to find their car in a parking garage will attest to. So, why > am I bombarded with requests that I stick out like a sore thumb by not > only having someone lead me about by the hand, but also having that > someone make sure I'm all safe in my special little seat? What gives? > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aprevost%40sidley.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: To comply with certain U.S. Treasury regulations, we inform you that, unless expressly stated otherwise, any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication, including attachments, was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding any penalties that may be imposed on such taxpayer by the Internal Revenue Service. In addition, if any such tax advice is used or referred to by other parties in promoting, marketing or recommending any partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement, then (i) the advice should be construed as written in connection with the promotion or marketing by others of the transaction(s) or matter(s) addressed in this communication and (ii) the taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayer's particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor. **************************************************************************************************** This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately. **************************************************************************************************** From rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 18:13:23 2009 From: rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:13:23 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] OT Seating In-Reply-To: References: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001c99774$bf51f630$6901a8c0@RThomas> Check recent case law on this topic and the DOJ guidelines; the law is evolving in this area. Respectfully, Russell J. Thomas, Jr. THOMAS & ASSOCIATES www.employersattorneys.com Orange County Office 4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101 Newport Beach, California 92660 T: (949) 752-0101 F: (949) 257-4756 M: (949) 466-7238 Beverly Hills Office 9107 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 450 Beverly Hills, California 90210 T: (310) 461-3561 -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Prevost, Ann Marie Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:01 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] OT Seating I have given up on theaters/stadiums that have an office for the disabled to get tickets for my daughter who is visually impaired. I have no idea how they decide on what seats to give the visually impaired, but they are simply ridiculous. They are so far away from the stage it is useless. Luckily I live in New York and I go directly to the Theater to get tickets. Of course this means we are paying a premium as seats close up are premium. Not fair. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Angie Matney Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:47 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] OT Seating I know some people with residual vision who prefer to sit where they can actually see what's going on. For this reason, they might ask for accessible seating, though this obviously might be different from seating that is most accessible for people who use wheel chairs. This part of the message is not directed at Mark. I wonder if we could try to have the subject lines reflecting the topic under discussion. It looks like several threads are being discussed under "job discrimination." Thanks for making a law student's life a bit less chaotic. :) Angie Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination From: Mark BurningHawk Date: 02/25/2009 7:47 AM I have neer understood the relationship that seems to exist in the minds of sighted people between blindness and needing preferential seating. Mere blindness alone would not cause any such need, that I can figure out, but another disability that affects walking, balance or whatever might. Why must a blind person sit in a certain area of a theater, or board a plane first, or not sit in an exit row? If the argument is, "It will take you longer to find your seat because you can't see," that's plainly absurd, as anyone who's observed someone trying to find their car in a parking garage will attest to. So, why am I bombarded with requests that I stick out like a sore thumb by not only having someone lead me about by the hand, but also having that someone make sure I'm all safe in my special little seat? What gives? _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aprevost%40sidley. com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: To comply with certain U.S. Treasury regulations, we inform you that, unless expressly stated otherwise, any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication, including attachments, was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding any penalties that may be imposed on such taxpayer by the Internal Revenue Service. In addition, if any such tax advice is used or referred to by other parties in promoting, marketing or recommending any partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement, then (i) the advice should be construed as written in connection with the promotion or marketing by others of the transaction(s) or matter(s) addressed in this communication and (ii) the taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayer's particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor. **************************************************************************** ************************ This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately. **************************************************************************** ************************ _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo .com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Feb 25 18:34:35 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:34:35 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Scholarship Application for Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities conference Message-ID: Scholarships are available for the ABA Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities conference. See below. ________________________________ From: CMPDL's Disability Discussion Docket (3D) [mailto:CMPDL-3D at MAIL.ABANET.ORG] On Behalf Of Phelan, William Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:18 PM To: CMPDL-3D at MAIL.ABANET.ORG Subject: Scholarship Application Available All: The application to apply for scholarships for the Second ABA National Conference on the Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities is now up: http://new.abanet.org/CALENDAR/2ND-NATIONAL-CONFERENCE-ON-EMPLOYMENT-OF-LAWYERS-WITH-DISABILITIES/Pages/ScholarshipInformation.aspx Please be sure to read the instructions in the actual document as to determine whether you are eligible and so you can fill the form out properly. Also note applications are due no later than Friday May 15, 2009. Determinations will be made shortly after that date so if you do not receive a scholarship, you are still able to register for the Conference's 'early bird' rate. Best, Bill William J. Phelan, IV, Esq. Special Projects and Technology Coordinator Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law American Bar Association 740 15th Street, NW, 9th Floor Washington, DC 20005-1022 T: 202.662.1576 F: 202.442.3439 phelanw at staff.abanet.org www.abanet.org/disability --------- [http://www.abanet.org/disability/images/3Dlogo.jpg] Disability Discussion Docket (3D) ABA Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law http://www.abanet.org/disability --------- To leave this list at any time, please send a message to listserv at mail.abanet.org. In the body of the message type "sign off cmpdl-3d." If you have any questions about 3D or the CMPDL in general, please contact William Phelan at phelanw at staff.abanet.org. From Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV Wed Feb 25 20:26:53 2009 From: Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV (Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:26:53 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] GINA Notice of Proposed rule Making Message-ID: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1615A7B@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov> Some on these lists might be interested in the notice of proposed rule making from the EEOC concerning the new Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act. /s/ Bennett Prows ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~EEOC Seeks Public Comment on Proposed Regulations Implementing Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act Commission Embarks on Historic New Area of Jurisdiction CONTACT: David Grinberg or Justine Lisser, (202) 663-4191 TTY: (202) 663-4494 WASHINGTON - Embarking on a historic new area of jurisdiction, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) today presented a Notice of Proposed Rule Making implementing employment provisions of the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008 (GINA), and urged public comment. "The addition of genetic information discrimination to the EEOC's mandate is historic, and represents the first legislative expansion of the EEOC's jurisdiction since the Americans with Disabilities Act passed in 1990," said Acting EEOC Chairman Stuart J. Ishimaru. "We welcome the opportunity to implement important provisions of this landmark legislation, and to expand the promise of equal opportunity in the workplace for everyone." Acting EEOC Vice Chair Christine M. Griffin said, "GINA is an important piece of legislation. As a deliberative body, we want to ensure that the intent of Congress is properly carried out through our regulations. Public comment on this NPRM is a critical part of that process. We look forward to a vigorous and thoughtful review." GINA, signed into law in May 2008, prohibits discrimination by health insurers and employers based on people's genetic information. The EEOC is charged with issuing regulations by May 21 implementing Title II of GINA, which prohibits the use of genetic information in employment, prohibits the intentional acquisition of genetic information about applicants and employees, and imposes strict confidentiality requirements. The EEOC opened a 60-day public comment period on the proposed rule-making at a Commission meeting today. Also at the meeting, a panel of experts hailed GINA for allowing people to advance their health care without risking their jobs. "We know that in the past, patients have passed up genetic testing that could benefit their health, and have gone to great lengths to keep genetic information secret - even from their own doctors," said Susannah Baruch, law and policy director of the Pew-supported Genetics and Public Policy Center at Johns Hopkins University. "With the passage of GINA and its implementation, we welcome a new era. There are many factors an individual may consider in deciding whether to take a genetic test, but the fear of discrimination must not be one of them." Other panelists at today's meeting included: * Karen S. Elliott, attorney with Gregory Kaplan, PLC and member, Society for Human Resource Management * Jeremy Gruber, president and executive Director, Council for Responsible Genetics * Andrew J. Imparato, president and chief executive officer, American Association of People with Disabilities * Rae T. Vann, general counsel, Equal Employment Advisory Council * Christopher J. Kuczynski, assistant legal counsel, ADA Policy Division, EEOC The EEOC enforces federal laws prohibiting employment discrimination. Further information about the EEOC is available on its Web site (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102476480387&e=001i3Pe907gVLp_Xxz4CRXPwfiLqnC lEJU11XQgXvIy5E-cOgmB6rff53cOQ60ODmDeWURiQ4lsePWZepEW2z6PYUFP3BEaexbhQQ- ao_3jDag=).
# # # From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 23:08:28 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:08:28 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com><754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike><630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> Message-ID: Social Security disability payments can be garnished whereas SSI payments cannot. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:12 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > Corollary: Can a government student loan garnish my SSDI? If that > happens, there goes the neighborhood--anyone wanna buy a kidney? :) > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Feb 25 23:10:05 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:10:05 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Former NCD Advisory Committee Members Honored Message-ID: Congrats, Stephanie! Former NCD Advisory Committee Members Honored Former NCD Youth Advisory Committee members Stephanie Enyart and Victor Pineda are winners of the American Association of People with Disabilities (AAPD) 2009 Paul G. Hearne Award. Ms. Enyart is a recent UCLA graduate and founding member and president of the National Association of Law Students with Disabilities. Mr. Pineda is a doctoral candidate, founder and president of the Victor Pineda Foundation, an educational nonprofit, and manages The Disability Media Initiative. The AAPD award (http://aapd.com/Communications/2009LeadershipWinner.html) recognizes young leaders. Congratulations to both. From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Wed Feb 25 23:55:22 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> <754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> <630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> Message-ID: <41CB34ECE4FF4361B1E51BD48A553E59@StevePC> "Good, if you don't pay back federal or state loans, they should be garnished. Just because your blind, does not mean you should not have to pay back loans to any entity! As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should be eligible for garnishment. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > Social Security disability payments can be garnished whereas SSI payments > cannot. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark BurningHawk" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:12 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > >> Corollary: Can a government student loan garnish my SSDI? If that >> happens, there goes the neighborhood--anyone wanna buy a kidney? :) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 06:40:00 From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 00:20:03 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:20:03 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com><754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike><630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> Message-ID: Thanks for that fact. From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Thu Feb 26 00:27:54 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:27:54 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA Message-ID: >From Special Ed Connection Key points: 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to whether accommodation reasonable Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. Jenkins v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, which rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in light of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into court, according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in Austin, Texas. "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," he said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as someone with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the core requirement of the ADA. The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And on that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and rule against Jenkins again. "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how quick you are, is how quickly you process." But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are requesting is reasonable, Martín said. "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able to argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this is not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the case. That's the fundamental analytical shift." Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with qualifying disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." Martín did not go that far in his remarks. "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed . . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light of the new law,'" he said. Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín said. "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as to whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, then that should be rethought altogether." Special Ed Connection® related stories: College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations (Feb. 24) *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act Roundup. Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special education issues for LRP Publications. February 24, 2009 Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications From angie at mpmail.net Thu Feb 26 00:58:40 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:58:40 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <41CB34ECE4FF4361B1E51BD48A553E59@StevePC> Message-ID: Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a difference. Angie On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >be eligible for garnishment. From heyitslu at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 01:36:32 2009 From: heyitslu at gmail.com (Alex) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:36:32 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination Message-ID: Back to the subject of the interview in which higher insurance premiums would be the cost of hiring a blind person,... Because this is the way I usually handle these episodes, I would have answered with a question,... "When did wearing glasses cause insurance premiums to increase? And, if your insurance carrier increases premiums because a blind person is working here, you might want to search for another option because there are some out there who have heard of the ADA and for that matter have some shred of common sense." I realize that would not have gotten me the job either, but I got my first job after answering the call for an interview by telling my future employer that if she was not willing to hire a blind person to work for her, I would like to decline the interview. I had been on many interviews over an 18 month period and felt that some would just not take a chance on hiring me because I am blind. Well, she interviewed and hired me but in one of my evaluations explained that I would not be trained to do my job because I would not be able to see the training materials or be able to travel to the training site. Following the evaluation, I quickly found another job because I had realized I would not have a bright future with a company with such interesting ideas about why people should or should not be trained. Lucy From mikefry79 at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 01:39:14 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:39:14 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] GINA Notice of Proposed rule Making In-Reply-To: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1615A7B@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov> References: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1615A7B@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902251739i431fc927yad077e3a6ee743a1@mail.gmail.com> This is neat to know about. The USDA has a site where it's possible to submit comments via email and read all public comments submitted. Here, it looks like EEOC just had a meeting and will make the transcripts avaliable online. Am I missing something here? It doesn't seem like public comment if you've to go to the meeting to make your public comment. On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR) < Bennett.Prows at hhs.gov> wrote: > Some on these lists might be interested in the notice of proposed rule > making from the EEOC concerning the new Genetic Information > Nondiscrimination Act. > > > > /s/ > > > > Bennett Prows > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~EEOC Seeks Public Comment > on Proposed Regulations Implementing Genetic Information > Nondiscrimination Act > > > > Commission Embarks on Historic New Area of Jurisdiction > > > > > > CONTACT: David Grinberg or Justine > > Lisser, (202) 663-4191 > > > > > > TTY: (202) 663-4494 > > > > > > WASHINGTON - Embarking on a historic new area of jurisdiction, the U.S. > Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) today presented a Notice > of Proposed Rule Making implementing employment provisions of the > Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008 (GINA), and urged > public comment. > > > > "The addition of genetic information > > discrimination to the EEOC's mandate is > > historic, and represents the first > > legislative expansion of the EEOC's > > jurisdiction since the Americans with > > Disabilities Act passed in 1990," said Acting EEOC Chairman Stuart J. > Ishimaru. "We welcome the opportunity to implement important provisions > of this landmark legislation, and to expand the promise of equal > opportunity in the workplace for everyone." > > > > Acting EEOC Vice Chair Christine M. Griffin said, "GINA is an important > piece of legislation. As a deliberative body, we want to ensure that > the intent of Congress is properly carried out through our regulations. > > Public comment on this NPRM is a critical part of that process. We look > forward to a vigorous and thoughtful review." > > > > GINA, signed into law in May 2008, prohibits discrimination by health > insurers and employers based on people's genetic information. The EEOC > is charged with issuing regulations by May 21 implementing Title II of > GINA, which prohibits the use of genetic information in employment, > prohibits the intentional acquisition of genetic information about > applicants and employees, and imposes strict confidentiality > requirements. > > > > The EEOC opened a 60-day public comment > > period on the proposed rule-making at a > > Commission meeting today. Also at the > > meeting, a panel of experts hailed GINA for allowing people to advance > their health care without risking their jobs. > > > > "We know that in the past, patients have passed up genetic testing that > could benefit their health, and have gone to great lengths to keep > genetic information secret - even from their own doctors," said Susannah > Baruch, law and policy director of the Pew-supported Genetics and Public > Policy Center at Johns Hopkins University. "With the passage of GINA > and its implementation, we welcome a new era. There are many factors an > individual may consider in deciding whether to take a genetic test, but > the fear of discrimination must not be one of them." > > > > Other panelists at today's meeting included: > > > > > > > > * Karen S. Elliott, attorney with Gregory Kaplan, PLC and member, > Society for Human Resource Management > > > > * Jeremy Gruber, president and executive Director, Council for > Responsible Genetics > > > > * Andrew J. Imparato, president and chief executive officer, American > Association of People with Disabilities > > > > * Rae T. Vann, general counsel, Equal > > Employment Advisory Council > > > > * Christopher J. Kuczynski, assistant > > legal counsel, ADA Policy Division, EEOC > > > > > > The EEOC enforces federal laws prohibiting > > employment discrimination. Further > > information about the EEOC is available on its Web site > (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102476480387&e=001i3Pe907gVLp_Xxz4CRXPwfiLqnC > lEJU11XQgXvIy5E-cOgmB6rff53cOQ60ODmDeWURiQ4lsePWZepEW2z6PYUFP3BEaexbhQQ- > ao_3jDag=). > > > >
# # # > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From heyitslu at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 01:50:40 2009 From: heyitslu at gmail.com (Alex) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:50:40 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Homework Accessibility? Message-ID: I posed these concerns and questions on the Blind Parents' list but thought I would post here as well for additional advice. I am a blind, single mother of an autistic, four-year-old boy currently attending a special education pre-school program at an elementary school. He will enter Kindergarten in the fall. Because the school for which we are zoned does not have a pre-school program, he is currently attending out of zone. I am trying to move into that school zone, but with the housing market being what it is, I am not sure that the move will take place before the beginning of the 2009/2010 school year. the pre-school teacher provides e-mailed notes regarding my son's progress when I ask for them and sends exercises for homework when appropriate. the speech therapist is willing to work with me to make homework accessible; however, we are having some difficulty with coming up with a way to label pictures. There is no Vision rehabilitation Teacher at this school and may not be one in the school system (no one seems to know). My concern is that I will be the one responsible for assisting my son in completing homework assignments. although he is verbal to a degree, he is not able to tell me with any accuracy the events of his day or relate a story. He is reading some but not enough to read a homework assignment. My questions are: Is the school system obligated to make homework assignments accessible for me? If so, under what law? (the pre-school teacher has been thinking of putting my son under 504 to ensure that progress reports, IEP's, and homework will be provided to me in an accessible format. Is this the best option? If not, what is? what type of language needs to be in the IEP to ensure accessibility for me as the primary care giver? This really needs to be tight because the school for which we are zoned is not known as having a great special ed program. The IEP will be written in March. thank you for any advice and reccomendations. Lucy From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Thu Feb 26 02:20:55 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:20:55 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> Message-ID: You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > difference. > > Angie > > On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >>As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >>be eligible for garnishment. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 06:40:00 From angie.matney at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 04:34:27 2009 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:34:27 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] ot SSI payments Message-ID: I don't think this list is the place for a drawn out discussion on this topic, but I'm curious. Are you suggesting that someone who receives SSI shouldn't have the opportunity to go to college? It seems to me that this would perpetuate class differences and severely limit opportunities for people with disabilities. Respectfully, Angie Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments From: "Steve P. Deeley" Date: 02/25/2009 11:21 PM You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > difference. > > Angie > > On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >>As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >>be eligible for garnishment. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 06:40:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From angie.matney at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 04:34:33 2009 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:34:33 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] ot SSI payments Message-ID: Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments From: "Steve P. Deeley" Date: 02/25/2009 11:21 PM You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > difference. > > Angie > > On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >>As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >>be eligible for garnishment. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 06:40:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 05:27:07 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 05:27:07 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] ot SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also jsut because someone is on SSI now doesnt mean they always have been they could have taken out a loan when they were in a much better situation, and the state of the economy has driven them to unemployment > From: angie.matney at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:34:27 -0500 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ot SSI payments > > > I don't think this list is the place for a drawn out discussion on this topic, but I'm curious. Are you suggesting that someone who receives SSI shouldn't have the opportunity to go to college? It seems to me that this would perpetuate class differences and severely limit opportunities for people with disabilities. > > Respectfully, > > Angie > > Sent from my Nokia N82. > > -original message- > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > From: "Steve P. Deeley" > Date: 02/25/2009 11:21 PM > > You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. > After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Angie Matney" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > > someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > > disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > > person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > > difference. > > > > Angie > > > > On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > > >>As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should > >>be eligible for garnishment. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 > 06:40:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®:…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009 From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 15:25:59 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:25:59 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Scott: I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those who do not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says my process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the form would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any manual entry of data. If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see what I can do! James Pepper On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California Court. > ************** > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > Disability Rights Advocates > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the Blind > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > Plaintiffs, > > v. > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > Defendant. > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF THE > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, seeks > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law School > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to take > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind law > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal access to > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, advantages > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test preparation > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers that > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and LSAT > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities, > and privileges of lsac.org. > > JURISDICTION > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons Act > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. Civ. > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and California > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates its > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > VENUE > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the acts > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights of > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons in > Alameda County. > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and practice > materials. > > PARTIES > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter "NFB") > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico. > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind persons. > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive agencies of > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on behalf > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to promote > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their efforts > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) removing > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created by > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have long > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, so > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > States, including the state of California, and many of its members would use > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by > the blind. > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation and > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its headquarters in > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to the > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school admissions > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided by > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > FACTS > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. Lsac.org > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive services > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application process, and > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also serves as > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to > ABA-accredited law schools. > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > a.. Register for the LSAT > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > schools > e.. Apply online to law schools > f.. Register for law school forums > g.. Have 24-hour file access > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and the > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits and > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. Goraya, > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently apply to > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org. > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction with > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a refreshable > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind persons > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > products and services contained therein. > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at least > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web Consortium, > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent free > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading software. > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow users > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize the > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online law > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack these > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to the > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on the > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly "tagged." > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions and > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As a > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind > visitor to navigate. > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, available > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than 40 > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer the > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible to > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary hurdles > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared to > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select and > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of the > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. Lsac.org > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access to > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and > facilities of lsac.org. > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the Blind > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. LSAC > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals with > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the general > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other places to > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, is > an > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general public > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal access > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to > blind people in an accessible format. > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and equal > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC and > lsac.org. > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the rights > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or obvious > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this time > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and > duties and act accordingly. > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining and/or > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required by > law; > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs as > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., California > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > Procedure § 1021.5. > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems just > and proper. > > > > DATED: > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > By: > ____________________________ > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 15:34:08 2009 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:34:08 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA References: Message-ID: <00b401c99827$aac9fb00$2c0110ac@notebook> what kind of doctor does he want to become? i don't want a doc to botch a surgery. Bryan Schulz The BEST Solution www.best-acts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:27 PM Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA >From Special Ed Connection Key points: 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to whether accommodation reasonable Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. Jenkins v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, which rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in light of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into court, according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in Austin, Texas. "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," he said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as someone with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the core requirement of the ADA. The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And on that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and rule against Jenkins again. "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how quick you are, is how quickly you process." But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are requesting is reasonable, Martín said. "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able to argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this is not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the case. That's the fundamental analytical shift." Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with qualifying disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." Martín did not go that far in his remarks. "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed . . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light of the new law,'" he said. Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín said. "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as to whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, then that should be rethought altogether." Special Ed Connection® related stories: College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations (Feb. 24) *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act Roundup. Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special education issues for LRP Publications. February 24, 2009 Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 16:25:44 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:25:44 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> Message-ID: <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on a blindness-related mailing list to date. If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university education--say the first person in your single-parent family to finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not granted, you're in trouble. Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion would be in order. I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's current and previous homes, combined. Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. Joseph On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. > After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > >> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow >> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to >> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the >> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a >> difference. >> >> Angie >> >> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >> >>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >>> be eligible for garnishment. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 > 06:40:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 17:43:16 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:43:16 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> In my case, I had an education from Dartmouth before realizing that I would have quite a large outstanding debt from Stafford loans. I didn't really understood what that meant until I hit the real world and started paying bills. It was at about this time that I confirmed my own theory about the uselessness of my education and the rampancy of unemployment, especially for a young blind guy with too much talent and not nearly enough tact. If I, at age 19 or 20, before graduating, had realized the ramifications, I wouldn't have signed the paper stating that I'd pay them back. However, for whatever reason, I didn't realize it, and now I am poorer than ever and have about the same amount of debt as I did 18 years ago upon graduation. I'm not interested in a debate about why this is or whose responsibility for which thing is whose; I just asked a question which could very immediately impact me, if ever the William D. Ford loan people decide to get nasty ... nastier... From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 18:25:10 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:25:10 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> Missed the earlier thread on this but: Had a situation in 98 where I managed to have "cancelled" 70+K of student loans. Vehicle for this was federal code but I cannot remember which one. I remember researching "student loans" and went right to it though. Anyways, the individual was blind and was so when he signed his student loans. However, the federal code stated if such an individual's disability increases (may have used the word "substantially") after signing the promissory note(s) AND they are unable to find "substantial gainful employment," a mere doctor's signature on a form and some threats at suit get your loans "cancelled." The cancelled part is important because it doesn't reference on your credit the loans were not paid back but rather only cancelled and a zero balance. Don't see why your situation might not work with a kind physician's help. Good luck. James Law Office of J. William Weisberg 980 9th Street - 16th Floor Sacramento, California 95814 V: 916.425.1010 F: 916.374.7667 This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark BurningHawk Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:43 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments In my case, I had an education from Dartmouth before realizing that I would have quite a large outstanding debt from Stafford loans. I didn't really understood what that meant until I hit the real world and started paying bills. It was at about this time that I confirmed my own theory about the uselessness of my education and the rampancy of unemployment, especially for a young blind guy with too much talent and not nearly enough tact. If I, at age 19 or 20, before graduating, had realized the ramifications, I wouldn't have signed the paper stating that I'd pay them back. However, for whatever reason, I didn't realize it, and now I am poorer than ever and have about the same amount of debt as I did 18 years ago upon graduation. I'm not interested in a debate about why this is or whose responsibility for which thing is whose; I just asked a question which could very immediately impact me, if ever the William D. Ford loan people decide to get nasty ... nastier... _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 0sbcglobal.net From pebreeze at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 18:57:55 2009 From: pebreeze at gmail.com (Philip Breeze) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:57:55 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA In-Reply-To: <00b401c99827$aac9fb00$2c0110ac@notebook> References: <00b401c99827$aac9fb00$2c0110ac@notebook> Message-ID: <88afe4410902261057p10a67b5ds99083274dbb74c09@mail.gmail.com> Don't worry Bryan, there are enough sighted doctors that can botch your surgery. Open your yellow pages to the physician reference, there you will find many doctors that are not surgeons that could easily perform their jobs without sight. A very small percentage of doctors are surgeons. Go see a psychiatrist and have him close his eyes, I bet he can still analyze you. Many people in the past and still to this day think that a person needs sight to program computers and develop web pages. On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Bryan Schulz wrote: > what kind of doctor does he want to become? > i don't want a doc to botch a surgery. > > Bryan Schulz > The BEST Solution > www.best-acts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" < > Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:27 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case > in light of ADAAA > > > From Special Ed Connection >> > > Key points: > > 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA > Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test > Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to whether > accommodation reasonable > Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA > > On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra > time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. Jenkins > v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). > > The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, > not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been > granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. > > Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of > interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, which > rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in light > of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. > National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). > > Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about > accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into court, > according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in > Austin, Texas. > > "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," he > said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as someone > with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the > core requirement of the ADA. > > The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation > for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And on > that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. > > After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able > to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and rule > against Jenkins again. > > "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how > quick you are, is how quickly you process." > > But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its > purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a > disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are > requesting is reasonable, Martín said. > > "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able to > argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable > accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this is > not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the case. > That's the fundamental analytical shift." > > Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, > declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will > continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with qualifying > disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. > > The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules > for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, > public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. > > The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' > ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. > "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." > > Martín did not go that far in his remarks. > > "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed . > . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light of > the new law,'" he said. > > Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín said. > "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as to > whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, then > that should be rethought altogether." > > Special Ed Connection® related stories: > > College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations > (Feb. 24) > *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act > Roundup. > > Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special > education issues for LRP Publications. > > February 24, 2009 > > Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 18:58:20 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:58:20 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: I myself have been very lucky, in Texas the state waives tuitiona nd fees to state colleges, but now that I am trying to get into law school it seems they are not going to do it for graduate school/law school like they did for my Bachelors even though there is nothing in the legislation about what level of post secondary education they are supposed to cover, simply that they are supposed to cover it for blind individuals. If I can not get them to waive my tution and fees I am going to ahve no other choice but tio take out loans after I apply for every scholarship possible taht is. > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:25:44 -0800 > From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on > a blindness-related mailing list to date. > > If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university > education--say the first person in your single-parent family to > finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university > is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. > > If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find > work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial > irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an > insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should > have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to > pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan > payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not > granted, you're in trouble. > > Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have > descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding > employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion > would be in order. > > I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another > $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted > a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's > current and previous homes, combined. > > Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would > be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. > > Joseph > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > > unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. > > After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > > Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > > Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > > >> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > >> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > >> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > >> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > >> difference. > >> > >> Angie > >> > >> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> > >>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should > >>> be eligible for garnishment. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 > > 06:40:00 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 19:03:19 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:03:19 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in the time they are allow. 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I finished everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®:…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009 From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 20:40:36 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:40:36 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> Message-ID: <2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> Problems with this: I was born blind, and thus was blind at the time of taking out the loans, going through college, etc. I am, however, losing my hearing, and have incurred such hearing loss that my ability to work is severely impacted. Upon obtaining the forms to cancel my loan, I discovered that I not only had to fill out this form, but in three years, I will be assessed again to see whether in fact I have made substantial monetary gain in that time. Essentially, I have to stay out of work for three years, and I am hoping to find work *SOMEWHERE*. Also, since I now no longer have health insurance, I can't afford the doctor visit to get the form signed that states that I have a disability that substantially impairs my ability to work... From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 20:41:58 2009 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:41:58 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcase in light of ADAAA References: <00b401c99827$aac9fb00$2c0110ac@notebook> <88afe4410902261057p10a67b5ds99083274dbb74c09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <022601c99852$ad1933a0$2c0110ac@notebook> no, you don't get the point of my question. if he is in psych, i don't care but if he's wanting to do something involved with internal procedures, i would demand another doc. Bryan Schulz The BEST Solution www.best-acts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Breeze" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcase in light of ADAAA Don't worry Bryan, there are enough sighted doctors that can botch your surgery. Open your yellow pages to the physician reference, there you will find many doctors that are not surgeons that could easily perform their jobs without sight. A very small percentage of doctors are surgeons. Go see a psychiatrist and have him close his eyes, I bet he can still analyze you. Many people in the past and still to this day think that a person needs sight to program computers and develop web pages. On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Bryan Schulz wrote: > what kind of doctor does he want to become? > i don't want a doc to botch a surgery. > > Bryan Schulz > The BEST Solution > www.best-acts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" < > Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:27 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case > in light of ADAAA > > > From Special Ed Connection >> > > Key points: > > 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA > Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test > Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to > whether > accommodation reasonable > Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA > > On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra > time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. > Jenkins > v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). > > The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, > not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been > granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. > > Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of > interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, > which > rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in > light > of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. > National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). > > Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about > accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into > court, > according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in > Austin, Texas. > > "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," > he > said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as > someone > with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the > core requirement of the ADA. > > The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation > for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And > on > that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. > > After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able > to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and > rule > against Jenkins again. > > "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how > quick you are, is how quickly you process." > > But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its > purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a > disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are > requesting is reasonable, Martín said. > > "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able > to > argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable > accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this > is > not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the > case. > That's the fundamental analytical shift." > > Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, > declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will > continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with > qualifying > disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. > > The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules > for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, > public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. > > The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' > ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. > "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." > > Martín did not go that far in his remarks. > > "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed > . > . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light > of > the new law,'" he said. > > Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín > said. > "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as > to > whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, > then > that should be rethought altogether." > > Special Ed Connection® related stories: > > College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations > (Feb. 24) > *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act > Roundup. > > Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special > education issues for LRP Publications. > > February 24, 2009 > > Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Thu Feb 26 20:49:55 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:49:55 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you get a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on > a blindness-related mailing list to date. > > If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university > education--say the first person in your single-parent family to > finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university > is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. > > If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find > work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial > irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an > insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should > have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to > pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan > payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not > granted, you're in trouble. > > Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have > descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding > employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion > would be in order. > > I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another > $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted > a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's > current and previous homes, combined. > > Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would > be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. > > Joseph > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >> You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are >> unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. >> After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. >> Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments >> >> >>> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow >>> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to >>> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the >>> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a >>> difference. >>> >>> Angie >>> >>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >>> >>>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >>>> be eligible for garnishment. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 >> 06:40:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 07:03:00 From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 21:42:03 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:42:03 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] doctors In-Reply-To: <88afe4410902261057p10a67b5ds99083274dbb74c09@mail.gmail.com> References: <00b401c99827$aac9fb00$2c0110ac@notebook> <88afe4410902261057p10a67b5ds99083274dbb74c09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: speaking of medical and mistakes. I am so tired of dealing with Medicaid and the companies they contract with to provide insurance. Picked my suplimental insurance plan from the oens they offered me because the booklet the company provided said my specialists where in their plan. Tried to go see the PCP they assigned me only to find out they were a geriatrics specialist, something I am about 30 years away form needing. Then i got a PCP that was appropriate, went to get referrals,, only to be told me specialists WERENT in the insurance network and never had been. Called Medicaid to change plans and was told it would take up to 45 days to process the change. Got the change made to a provider netowrk I foun out my specialists ARE in, but Medicaid assigned mea PCP that isnt even a doctor its a pediatric nurse practitioner. does ANYONE know how to do their job right? arg. Now im gonna have to call and delay my apointment at my specialist next week because in the three months since i scheduled the appointment I ahvent been able to straighten all this junk out. So I am going to be putting off a vital surgery yet again taht I ahve been trying to get for over a year. > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:57:55 -0600 > From: pebreeze at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA > > Don't worry Bryan, there are enough sighted doctors that can botch your > surgery. Open your yellow pages to the physician reference, there you will > find many doctors that are not surgeons that could easily perform their jobs > without sight. A very small percentage of doctors are surgeons. Go see a > psychiatrist and have him close his eyes, I bet he can still analyze you. > Many people in the past and still to this day think that a person needs > sight to program computers and develop web pages. > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Bryan Schulz wrote: > > > what kind of doctor does he want to become? > > i don't want a doc to botch a surgery. > > > > Bryan Schulz > > The BEST Solution > > www.best-acts.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" < > > Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:27 PM > > Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case > > in light of ADAAA > > > > > > From Special Ed Connection > >> > > > > Key points: > > > > 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA > > Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test > > Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to whether > > accommodation reasonable > > Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA > > > > On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra > > time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. Jenkins > > v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). > > > > The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, > > not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been > > granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. > > > > Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of > > interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, which > > rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in light > > of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. > > National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). > > > > Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about > > accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into court, > > according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in > > Austin, Texas. > > > > "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," he > > said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as someone > > with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the > > core requirement of the ADA. > > > > The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation > > for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And on > > that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. > > > > After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able > > to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and rule > > against Jenkins again. > > > > "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how > > quick you are, is how quickly you process." > > > > But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its > > purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a > > disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are > > requesting is reasonable, Martín said. > > > > "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able to > > argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable > > accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this is > > not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the case. > > That's the fundamental analytical shift." > > > > Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, > > declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will > > continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with qualifying > > disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. > > > > The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules > > for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, > > public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. > > > > The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' > > ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. > > "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." > > > > Martín did not go that far in his remarks. > > > > "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed . > > . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light of > > the new law,'" he said. > > > > Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín said. > > "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as to > > whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, then > > that should be rethought altogether." > > > > Special Ed Connection® related stories: > > > > College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations > > (Feb. 24) > > *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act > > Roundup. > > > > Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special > > education issues for LRP Publications. > > > > February 24, 2009 > > > > Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009 From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 21:47:34 2009 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:47:34 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <02bd01c9985b$d5da28e0$2c0110ac@notebook> hi, that's how it should be. it seems blind people are always looking for a loop hole. we want special schedule appointments for fed/state jobs but the necessary education should be on somebody elses dime. Bryan Schulz The BEST Solution www.best-acts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "tim and vickie shaw" To: Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments I myself have been very lucky, in Texas the state waives tuitiona nd fees to state colleges, but now that I am trying to get into law school it seems they are not going to do it for graduate school/law school like they did for my Bachelors even though there is nothing in the legislation about what level of post secondary education they are supposed to cover, simply that they are supposed to cover it for blind individuals. If I can not get them to waive my tution and fees I am going to ahve no other choice but tio take out loans after I apply for every scholarship possible taht is. > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:25:44 -0800 > From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on > a blindness-related mailing list to date. > > If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university > education--say the first person in your single-parent family to > finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university > is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. > > If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find > work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial > irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an > insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should > have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to > pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan > payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not > granted, you're in trouble. > > Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have > descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding > employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion > would be in order. > > I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another > $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted > a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's > current and previous homes, combined. > > Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would > be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. > > Joseph > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > > unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so > > much. > > After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > > Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > > Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > > >> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > >> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > >> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > >> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > >> difference. > >> > >> Angie > >> > >> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> > >>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should > >>> be eligible for garnishment. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: > > 02/25/09 > > 06:40:00 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ ItÂ’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 21:51:42 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:51:42 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> <2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: you dont have a specialist or doctor youve been to in the past thaat woudl fill otu the papers for you? my cornea specialist fills out such forms for me without me having to go in for a visit./ > From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:40:36 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > Problems with this: I was born blind, and thus was blind at the time > of taking out the loans, going through college, etc. I am, however, > losing my hearing, and have incurred such hearing loss that my ability > to work is severely impacted. Upon obtaining the forms to cancel my > loan, I discovered that I not only had to fill out this form, but in > three years, I will be assessed again to see whether in fact I have > made substantial monetary gain in that time. Essentially, I have to > stay out of work for three years, and I am hoping to find work > *SOMEWHERE*. Also, since I now no longer have health insurance, I > can't afford the doctor visit to get the form signed that states that > I have a disability that substantially impairs my ability to work... > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 22:04:12 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:04:12 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> <2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <2907B3FE-31F0-42A9-A5C2-6C3A33D1FA26@sbcglobal.net> The only place around here that accepts MediCal, California's version of Medicaid, was a health center / clinic. Since I no longer receive or qualify for MediCal, and since I didn't have an individual primary care physician at this clinic, they won't just see me to sign the paper based on past records. I don't have a personal physician per se. From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 22:17:32 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:17:32 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: ofcourse you should, but i think the fact that it is harder for a blind person to find an employer willing to hire them sould be taken into account when deffering payment until a job is found as they WILL defer payment for a year for normal students, it could take much longer than a year for a person with a disability that cant find someone willign to "take a chance" on them to find a job. I have been looking for work for almost two years now. I did have a job after cololege, and i dotn have student loans, but jsut saying. > From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:49:55 -0500 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you get > a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "T. Joseph Carter" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:25 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on > > a blindness-related mailing list to date. > > > > If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university > > education--say the first person in your single-parent family to > > finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university > > is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. > > > > If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find > > work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial > > irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an > > insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should > > have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to > > pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan > > payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not > > granted, you're in trouble. > > > > Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have > > descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding > > employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion > > would be in order. > > > > I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another > > $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted > > a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's > > current and previous homes, combined. > > > > Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would > > be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. > > > > Joseph > > > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > >> unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. > >> After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > >> Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > >> Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > >> > >> > >>> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > >>> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > >>> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > >>> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > >>> difference. > >>> > >>> Angie > >>> > >>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >>> > >>>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should > >>>> be eligible for garnishment. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> blindlaw: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 > >> 06:40:00 > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 > 07:03:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 From lmilholland at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 22:23:18 2009 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:23:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: "Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans." absolutely True, with some exceptions. 15 chapters of Title 11, aka the Bankruptcy code for starters. Locke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you > get a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: >>> 02/25/09 >>> 06:40:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 > 07:03:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com > From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 23:13:27 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:13:27 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <02bd01c9985b$d5da28e0$2c0110ac@notebook> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <02bd01c9985b$d5da28e0$2c0110ac@notebook> Message-ID: its not a loop hole its a program established to try and get blind people off of SSI, mediaid, est. > From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:47:34 -0600 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > hi, > > that's how it should be. > it seems blind people are always looking for a loop hole. > we want special schedule appointments for fed/state jobs but the necessary > education should be on somebody elses dime. > > Bryan Schulz > The BEST Solution > www.best-acts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tim and vickie shaw" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:58 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > I myself have been very lucky, in Texas the state waives tuitiona nd fees to > state colleges, but now that I am trying to get into law school it seems > they are not going to do it for graduate school/law school like they did for > my Bachelors even though there is nothing in the legislation about what > level of post secondary education they are supposed to cover, simply that > they are supposed to cover it for blind individuals. If I can not get them > to waive my tution and fees I am going to ahve no other choice but tio take > out loans after I apply for every scholarship possible taht is. > > > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:25:44 -0800 > > From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on > > a blindness-related mailing list to date. > > > > If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university > > education--say the first person in your single-parent family to > > finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university > > is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. > > > > If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find > > work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial > > irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an > > insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should > > have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to > > pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan > > payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not > > granted, you're in trouble. > > > > Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have > > descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding > > employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion > > would be in order. > > > > I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another > > $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted > > a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's > > current and previous homes, combined. > > > > Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would > > be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. > > > > Joseph > > > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > > You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > > > unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so > > > much. > > > After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > > > Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > > > Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > > > > > >> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > > >> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > > >> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > > >> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > > >> difference. > > >> > > >> Angie > > >> > > >> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > >> > > >>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should > > >>> be eligible for garnishment. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> blindlaw mailing list > > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >> blindlaw: > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: > > > 02/25/09 > > > 06:40:00 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_022009 From angie at mpmail.net Thu Feb 26 23:19:25 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:19:25 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Deferring a loan for an SSI recipient until that person has a job is not a "pass card." BTW, people other than blind people get SSI. SSI is not something that can be garnished because its purpose is to help people meet their basic necessities so that they are not starving out in the street. On the other hand, SSDI is like an insurance payment (that's actually what the "I" stands for in SSDI, but not in SSI). Someone could win the lottery and still continue to receive their SSDI payments. That is why SSDI can be garnished. On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:49:55 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you get >a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? >----- Original Message ----- From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 00:32:53 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:32:53 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net><4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> Message-ID: This process including the relevant code sections was part of a thread on this topic about 6 months ago on this list. Unfortunately, that part of it is stored on another computer as I was in the process of changing computers and that computer is now at a satellite office I use from time to time and not so accessible. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments Missed the earlier thread on this but: Had a situation in 98 where I managed to have "cancelled" 70+K of student loans. Vehicle for this was federal code but I cannot remember which one. I remember researching "student loans" and went right to it though. Anyways, the individual was blind and was so when he signed his student loans. However, the federal code stated if such an individual's disability increases (may have used the word "substantially") after signing the promissory note(s) AND they are unable to find "substantial gainful employment," a mere doctor's signature on a form and some threats at suit get your loans "cancelled." The cancelled part is important because it doesn't reference on your credit the loans were not paid back but rather only cancelled and a zero balance. Don't see why your situation might not work with a kind physician's help. Good luck. James Law Office of J. William Weisberg 980 9th Street - 16th Floor Sacramento, California 95814 V: 916.425.1010 F: 916.374.7667 This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark BurningHawk Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:43 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments In my case, I had an education from Dartmouth before realizing that I would have quite a large outstanding debt from Stafford loans. I didn't really understood what that meant until I hit the real world and started paying bills. It was at about this time that I confirmed my own theory about the uselessness of my education and the rampancy of unemployment, especially for a young blind guy with too much talent and not nearly enough tact. If I, at age 19 or 20, before graduating, had realized the ramifications, I wouldn't have signed the paper stating that I'd pay them back. However, for whatever reason, I didn't realize it, and now I am poorer than ever and have about the same amount of debt as I did 18 years ago upon graduation. I'm not interested in a debate about why this is or whose responsibility for which thing is whose; I just asked a question which could very immediately impact me, if ever the William D. Ford loan people decide to get nasty ... nastier... _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 0sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Fri Feb 27 00:40:12 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:40:12 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <0KFP00DQU7KWA3N0@mta2.manage.insightcom.com> References: <0KFP00DQU7KWA3N0@mta2.manage.insightcom.com> Message-ID: <612349CCCCB647938BAF65610C83BB65@StevePC> What if they never work?? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Deferring a loan for an SSI recipient until that person has a job is not a > "pass card." BTW, people other than blind people get SSI. SSI is not > something that can be garnished because its purpose is to help people meet > their basic necessities so that > they are not starving out in the street. On the other hand, SSDI is like > an insurance payment (that's actually what the "I" stands for in SSDI, but > not in SSI). Someone could win the lottery and still continue to receive > their SSDI payments. That is why > SSDI can be garnished. > > > > On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:49:55 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >>Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you >>get >>a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? >>----- Original Message ----- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1974 - Release Date: 02/26/09 14:51:00 From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Fri Feb 27 00:41:13 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:41:13 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <02bd01c9985b$d5da28e0$2c0110ac@notebook> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <02bd01c9985b$d5da28e0$2c0110ac@notebook> Message-ID: <8C3255CA7C77452D977FA9D2E7C74622@StevePC> I agree Brian. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments hi, that's how it should be. it seems blind people are always looking for a loop hole. we want special schedule appointments for fed/state jobs but the necessary education should be on somebody elses dime. Bryan Schulz The BEST Solution www.best-acts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "tim and vickie shaw" To: Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments I myself have been very lucky, in Texas the state waives tuitiona nd fees to state colleges, but now that I am trying to get into law school it seems they are not going to do it for graduate school/law school like they did for my Bachelors even though there is nothing in the legislation about what level of post secondary education they are supposed to cover, simply that they are supposed to cover it for blind individuals. If I can not get them to waive my tution and fees I am going to ahve no other choice but tio take out loans after I apply for every scholarship possible taht is. > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:25:44 -0800 > From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on > a blindness-related mailing list to date. > > If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university > education--say the first person in your single-parent family to > finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university > is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. > > If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find > work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial > irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an > insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should > have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to > pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan > payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not > granted, you're in trouble. > > Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have > descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding > employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion > would be in order. > > I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another > $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted > a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's > current and previous homes, combined. > > Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would > be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. > > Joseph > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > > unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so > > much. > > After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > > Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > > Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > > >> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > >> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > >> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > >> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > >> difference. > >> > >> Angie > >> > >> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> > >>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should > >>> be eligible for garnishment. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: > > 02/25/09 > > 06:40:00 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ ItÂ’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1974 - Release Date: 02/26/09 14:51:00 From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 01:14:59 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:14:59 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net><4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net><317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> <2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: you can always get the form signed by a doctor that treated or evaluated you in the past or go to a county medical facility for such an evaluation. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Problems with this: I was born blind, and thus was blind at the time of > taking out the loans, going through college, etc. I am, however, losing > my hearing, and have incurred such hearing loss that my ability to work > is severely impacted. Upon obtaining the forms to cancel my loan, I > discovered that I not only had to fill out this form, but in three years, > I will be assessed again to see whether in fact I have made substantial > monetary gain in that time. Essentially, I have to stay out of work for > three years, and I am hoping to find work *SOMEWHERE*. Also, since I now > no longer have health insurance, I can't afford the doctor visit to get > the form signed that states that I have a disability that substantially > impairs my ability to work... > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 01:19:14 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:19:14 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <2907B3FE-31F0-42A9-A5C2-6C3A33D1FA26@sbcglobal.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net><4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net><317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg><2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> <2907B3FE-31F0-42A9-A5C2-6C3A33D1FA26@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Contact me off list as I may have some ideas if I know where you are in California. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > The only place around here that accepts MediCal, California's version of > Medicaid, was a health center / clinic. Since I no longer receive or > qualify for MediCal, and since I didn't have an individual primary care > physician at this clinic, they won't just see me to sign the paper based > on past records. I don't have a personal physician per se. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 01:26:34 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:26:34 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcasein light of ADAAA In-Reply-To: <022601c99852$ad1933a0$2c0110ac@notebook> References: <00b401c99827$aac9fb00$2c0110ac@notebook><88afe4410902261057p10a67b5ds99083274dbb74c09@mail.gmail.com> <022601c99852$ad1933a0$2c0110ac@notebook> Message-ID: <61D5D43034C2477CB96DBB287F9647EB@spike> If I recall there was nothing in this court ruling that even stated that the party had a visual impairment. I don't recall the decision stating what the nature of the disability was. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcasein light of ADAAA no, you don't get the point of my question. if he is in psych, i don't care but if he's wanting to do something involved with internal procedures, i would demand another doc. Bryan Schulz The BEST Solution www.best-acts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Breeze" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcase in light of ADAAA Don't worry Bryan, there are enough sighted doctors that can botch your surgery. Open your yellow pages to the physician reference, there you will find many doctors that are not surgeons that could easily perform their jobs without sight. A very small percentage of doctors are surgeons. Go see a psychiatrist and have him close his eyes, I bet he can still analyze you. Many people in the past and still to this day think that a person needs sight to program computers and develop web pages. On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Bryan Schulz wrote: > what kind of doctor does he want to become? > i don't want a doc to botch a surgery. > > Bryan Schulz > The BEST Solution > www.best-acts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" < > Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:27 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case > in light of ADAAA > > > From Special Ed Connection >> > > Key points: > > 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA > Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test > Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to > whether > accommodation reasonable > Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA > > On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra > time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. > Jenkins > v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). > > The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, > not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been > granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. > > Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of > interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, > which > rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in > light > of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. > National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). > > Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about > accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into > court, > according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in > Austin, Texas. > > "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," > he > said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as > someone > with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the > core requirement of the ADA. > > The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation > for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And > on > that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. > > After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able > to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and > rule > against Jenkins again. > > "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how > quick you are, is how quickly you process." > > But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its > purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a > disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are > requesting is reasonable, Martín said. > > "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able > to > argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable > accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this > is > not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the > case. > That's the fundamental analytical shift." > > Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, > declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will > continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with > qualifying > disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. > > The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules > for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, > public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. > > The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' > ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. > "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." > > Martín did not go that far in his remarks. > > "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed > . > . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light > of > the new law,'" he said. > > Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín > said. > "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as > to > whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, > then > that should be rethought altogether." > > Special Ed Connection® related stories: > > College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations > (Feb. 24) > *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act > Roundup. > > Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special > education issues for LRP Publications. > > February 24, 2009 > > Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 01:41:47 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:41:47 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <701D3CB569034C898E539A9693401ED8@spike> However, under the new bankruptcy laws student loans are not necessarily discharged under bankruptcy. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Locke Milholland" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > "Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans." > > absolutely True, with some exceptions. > 15 chapters of Title 11, aka the Bankruptcy code for starters. > > Locke > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve P. Deeley" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 3:49 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > >> Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you >> get a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to >> convey? > your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: >>>> 02/25/09 >>>> 06:40:00 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 >> 07:03:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From bspiry at comcast.net Fri Feb 27 01:47:50 2009 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000b01c9987d$66802d60$33808820$@net> Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare for the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be appreciated. In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for additional time? I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. Bill Spiry 541-510-2623 Springfield Oregon -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in the time they are allow. 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I finished everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. _________________________________________________________________ Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore _022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From bspiry at comcast.net Fri Feb 27 01:52:45 2009 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:52:45 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> James, I'd be very interested in what you are doing with this. I'll be taking the LSAT in June, and I've found the LSAC sampel LSAT test to be miserably inaccessible with JAWS, blended columns, ordering and tagging is a mess, just about totally impossible to read it with any comprehensible clarity. If you've found a way to sort or rearrange the PDF in some way to make it useable, I'd sure appreciate getting a piece of that. I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. Bill Spiry 541-510-2623 Springfield Oregon -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Pepper Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:26 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint Scott: I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those who do not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says my process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the form would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any manual entry of data. If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see what I can do! James Pepper On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California Court. > ************** > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > Disability Rights Advocates > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the Blind > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > Plaintiffs, > > v. > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > Defendant. > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF THE > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, seeks > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law School > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to take > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind law > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal access to > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, advantages > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test preparation > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers that > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and LSAT > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities, > and privileges of lsac.org. > > JURISDICTION > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons Act > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. Civ. > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and California > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates its > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > VENUE > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the acts > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights of > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons in > Alameda County. > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and practice > materials. > > PARTIES > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter "NFB") > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico. > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind persons. > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive agencies of > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on behalf > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to promote > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their efforts > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) removing > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created by > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have long > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, so > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > States, including the state of California, and many of its members would use > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by > the blind. > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation and > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its headquarters in > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to the > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school admissions > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided by > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > FACTS > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. Lsac.org > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive services > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application process, and > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also serves as > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to > ABA-accredited law schools. > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > a.. Register for the LSAT > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > schools > e.. Apply online to law schools > f.. Register for law school forums > g.. Have 24-hour file access > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and the > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits and > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. Goraya, > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently apply to > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org. > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction with > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a refreshable > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind persons > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > products and services contained therein. > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at least > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web Consortium, > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent free > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading software. > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow users > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize the > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online law > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack these > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to the > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on the > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly "tagged." > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions and > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As a > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind > visitor to navigate. > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, available > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than 40 > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer the > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible to > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary hurdles > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared to > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select and > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of the > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. Lsac.org > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access to > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and > facilities of lsac.org. > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the Blind > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. LSAC > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals with > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the general > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other places to > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, is > an > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general public > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal access > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to > blind people in an accessible format. > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and equal > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC and > lsac.org. > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the rights > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or obvious > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this time > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and > duties and act accordingly. > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining and/or > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required by > law; > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs as > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., California > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > Procedure § 1021.5. > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems just > and proper. > > > > DATED: > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > By: > ____________________________ > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From timandvickie at hotmail.com Fri Feb 27 02:28:45 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:28:45 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: <000b01c9987d$66802d60$33808820$@net> References: <000b01c9987d$66802d60$33808820$@net> Message-ID: i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > From: bspiry at comcast.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare for > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > appreciated. > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > additional time? > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > Bill Spiry > 541-510-2623 > Springfield Oregon > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in the > time they are allow. > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I finished > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®:…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009 From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 03:18:07 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:18:07 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <20090227031807.GB12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> What part of "I said compassion, not forgiveness of debt" is unclear to you? We're talking about garnishment of subsistence living funds which are NOT ELIGIBLE FOR GARNISHMENT because they represent the absolute minimum amount needed to survive. Do blind people deserve a pass? No. Do people on SSI "deserve" a pass? Again, no. However, SSI exists as a safety net--making it unsafe is counter-productive. Meaningful Social Security reform would make that safety net contingent upon good faith effort to either seek employment or make yourself more employable, but that's not the same as saying that we'll leave a person without the ability to buy food and pay rent. Buying iPods and flat screen TVs, on the other hand... But I don't know many people on SSI who regularly purchase such things, either. Joseph On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 03:49:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you > get a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to > convey? > ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:25 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > >> That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on >> a blindness-related mailing list to date. >> >> If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university >> education--say the first person in your single-parent family to >> finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university >> is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. >> >> If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find >> work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial >> irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an >> insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should >> have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to >> pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan >> payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not >> granted, you're in trouble. >> >> Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have >> descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding >> employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion >> would be in order. >> >> I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another >> $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted >> a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's >> current and previous homes, combined. >> >> Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would >> be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >>> You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are >>> unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. >>> After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. >>> Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments >>> >>> >>>> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow >>>> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to >>>> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the >>>> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a >>>> difference. >>>> >>>> Angie >>>> >>>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >>>> >>>>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >>>>> be eligible for garnishment. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 >>> 06:40:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 > 07:03:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 03:35:16 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:35:16 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <612349CCCCB647938BAF65610C83BB65@StevePC> References: <0KFP00DQU7KWA3N0@mta2.manage.insightcom.com> <612349CCCCB647938BAF65610C83BB65@StevePC> Message-ID: <20090227033516.GC12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> And what if the recipient of the loan has no family and gets hit by a bus tomorrow? What do you garnish then? If they don't get a job, then they don't. If SSI allows them to sit on SSI collecting subsistence-level money without ever contributing anything to society, that can and should be fixed--but not by allowing garnishment of SSI. Joseph On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 07:40:12PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > What if they never work?? > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:19 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > >> Deferring a loan for an SSI recipient until that person has a job is >> not a "pass card." BTW, people other than blind people get SSI. SSI is >> not something that can be garnished because its purpose is to help >> people meet their basic necessities so that >> they are not starving out in the street. On the other hand, SSDI is >> like an insurance payment (that's actually what the "I" stands for in >> SSDI, but not in SSI). Someone could win the lottery and still continue >> to receive their SSDI payments. That is why >> SSDI can be garnished. >> >> >> >> On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:49:55 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >> >>> Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do >>> you get >>> a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1974 - Release Date: 02/26/09 > 14:51:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 04:06:42 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:06:42 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> References: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> Message-ID: <20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> James, That's certainly a legal approach that you could validly take--and I do not think the provisions that allow it should be repealed because they serve a valid and legitimate purpose for those who genuinely become disabled and are consequently unable to repay their student loans. That said--and I do not know the circumstances affecting your client--I think it is not a moral thing for someone who was blind when they began college to attempt to use blindness in this way under almost any circumstances I can imagine. I cannot imagine that I ever would take that road myself. Joseph On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:25:10AM -0800, James Weisberg wrote: >Missed the earlier thread on this but: > >Had a situation in 98 where I managed to have "cancelled" 70+K of student >loans. Vehicle for this was federal code but I cannot remember which one. >I remember researching "student loans" and went right to it though. >Anyways, the individual was blind and was so when he signed his student >loans. However, the federal code stated if such an individual's disability >increases (may have used the word "substantially") after signing the >promissory note(s) AND they are unable to find "substantial gainful >employment," a mere doctor's signature on a form and some threats at suit >get your loans "cancelled." The cancelled part is important because it >doesn't reference on your credit the loans were not paid back but rather >only cancelled and a zero balance. Don't see why your situation might not >work with a kind physician's help. Good luck. > >James > >Law Office of J. William Weisberg >980 9th Street - 16th Floor >Sacramento, California 95814 >V: 916.425.1010 >F: 916.374.7667 > > > >This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are >not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain >this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the >sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This >message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications >Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Mark BurningHawk >Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:43 AM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > >In my case, I had an education from Dartmouth before realizing that I >would have quite a large outstanding debt from Stafford loans. I >didn't really understood what that meant until I hit the real world >and started paying bills. It was at about this time that I confirmed >my own theory about the uselessness of my education and the rampancy >of unemployment, especially for a young blind guy with too much talent >and not nearly enough tact. If I, at age 19 or 20, before graduating, >had realized the ramifications, I wouldn't have signed the paper >stating that I'd pay them back. However, for whatever reason, I >didn't realize it, and now I am poorer than ever and have about the >same amount of debt as I did 18 years ago upon graduation. I'm not >interested in a debate about why this is or whose responsibility for >which thing is whose; I just asked a question which could very >immediately impact me, if ever the William D. Ford loan people decide >to get nasty ... nastier... > > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 >0sbcglobal.net > > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From timandvickie at hotmail.com Fri Feb 27 04:22:29 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 04:22:29 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <20090227033516.GC12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <0KFP00DQU7KWA3N0@mta2.manage.insightcom.com> <612349CCCCB647938BAF65610C83BB65@StevePC> <20090227033516.GC12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: honestly i dont know how people live off SSI unless they flat out lie to the SSA the most i have EVER gotten from them is 367 a month I ahve never managed to get them to pay the full amount allowed. At the moment I only get 116 a month and I ahve been fighting them for 56 months tryin gto ge tthrough the red tape to get them to pay me the higher amoutn i sould be getting > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:35:16 -0800 > From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > And what if the recipient of the loan has no family and gets hit by a > bus tomorrow? What do you garnish then? > > If they don't get a job, then they don't. If SSI allows them to sit > on SSI collecting subsistence-level money without ever contributing > anything to society, that can and should be fixed--but not by > allowing garnishment of SSI. > > Joseph > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 07:40:12PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > What if they never work?? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:19 PM > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > > >> Deferring a loan for an SSI recipient until that person has a job is > >> not a "pass card." BTW, people other than blind people get SSI. SSI is > >> not something that can be garnished because its purpose is to help > >> people meet their basic necessities so that > >> they are not starving out in the street. On the other hand, SSDI is > >> like an insurance payment (that's actually what the "I" stands for in > >> SSDI, but not in SSI). Someone could win the lottery and still continue > >> to receive their SSDI payments. That is why > >> SSDI can be garnished. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:49:55 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> > >>> Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do > >>> you get > >>> a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1974 - Release Date: 02/26/09 > > 14:51:00 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 From bspiry at comcast.net Fri Feb 27 05:47:31 2009 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:47:31 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: References: <000b01c9987d$66802d60$33808820$@net> Message-ID: <001601c9989e$e247c9a0$a6d75ce0$@net> Were you able to find some practice tests that were readable using a screen reader like JAWS? The practice test on the LSAC site are crummy for accessibility. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:29 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > From: bspiry at comcast.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare for > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > appreciated. > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > additional time? > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > Bill Spiry > 541-510-2623 > Springfield Oregon > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in the > time they are allow. > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I finished > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot mail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore _022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From timandvickie at hotmail.com Fri Feb 27 06:18:02 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 06:18:02 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: <001601c9989e$e247c9a0$a6d75ce0$@net> References: <000b01c9987d$66802d60$33808820$@net> <001601c9989e$e247c9a0$a6d75ce0$@net> Message-ID: i dont use a screen reader, just magnifier > From: bspiry at comcast.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:47:31 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > Were you able to find some practice tests that were readable using a screen > reader like JAWS? The practice test on the LSAC site are crummy for > accessibility. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:29 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest > bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I > could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > > > From: bspiry at comcast.net > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare > for > > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > > appreciated. > > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > > additional time? > > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > > Bill Spiry > > 541-510-2623 > > Springfield Oregon > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in > the > > time they are allow. > > > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. > > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if > > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I > finished > > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > > > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > > _022009 > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > et > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot > mail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 07:13:52 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:13:52 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net><4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net><317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg><2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <95C741B67C4140089E51658582B86C50@JamesWeisberg> My suggestion would be to seek out a compassionate doc, develop a respectful relationship. Explain the situation and ask if he/she would be willing to help you. My guess is most kind compassionate docs would lean towards a "yes." This can EVEN be done in Cal with Medi-Cal!! James Law Office of J. William Weisberg 980 9th Street - 16th Floor Sacramento, California 95814 V: 916.425.1010 F: 916.374.7667 This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 5:15 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments you can always get the form signed by a doctor that treated or evaluated you in the past or go to a county medical facility for such an evaluation. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Problems with this: I was born blind, and thus was blind at the time of > taking out the loans, going through college, etc. I am, however, losing > my hearing, and have incurred such hearing loss that my ability to work > is severely impacted. Upon obtaining the forms to cancel my loan, I > discovered that I not only had to fill out this form, but in three years, > I will be assessed again to see whether in fact I have made substantial > monetary gain in that time. Essentially, I have to stay out of work for > three years, and I am hoping to find work *SOMEWHERE*. Also, since I now > no longer have health insurance, I can't afford the doctor visit to get > the form signed that states that I have a disability that substantially > impairs my ability to work... > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob al.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 0sbcglobal.net From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 07:23:52 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:23:52 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <701D3CB569034C898E539A9693401ED8@spike> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <701D3CB569034C898E539A9693401ED8@spike> Message-ID: <00C11257FFE64F2CA32E03EEFE6C43EC@JamesWeisberg> Steve: Personal responsibility is important. Agreed. But who takes responsibility for society stigmatizing and stereotyping the blind so they experience such hardship in the form of hiring discrimination? If society's discrimination prevents one from "substantial gainful employment" should not this same society relieve such a blind person of the burden of repayment of such loans? Curious to know if you believe someone who avails themselves of such relief is avoiding personal responsibility? Respectfully, James Law Office of J. William Weisberg 980 9th Street - 16th Floor Sacramento, California 95814 V: 916.425.1010 F: 916.374.7667 This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 5:42 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments However, under the new bankruptcy laws student loans are not necessarily discharged under bankruptcy. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Locke Milholland" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > "Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans." > > absolutely True, with some exceptions. > 15 chapters of Title 11, aka the Bankruptcy code for starters. > > Locke > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve P. Deeley" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 3:49 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > >> Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you >> get a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to >> convey? > your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: >>>> 02/25/09 >>>> 06:40:00 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40g mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 >> 07:03:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotm ail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob al.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 0sbcglobal.net From timandvickie at hotmail.com Fri Feb 27 08:49:56 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 08:49:56 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <00C11257FFE64F2CA32E03EEFE6C43EC@JamesWeisberg> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <701D3CB569034C898E539A9693401ED8@spike> <00C11257FFE64F2CA32E03EEFE6C43EC@JamesWeisberg> Message-ID: i wish they would give the blidn a chance to "Serve their country" in order to earn collegee tuition like they do with letting people serve in the military to earn goign to college. I would ahve enlisted if I had the chance > From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:23:52 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > Steve: > > Personal responsibility is important. Agreed. But who takes responsibility > for society stigmatizing and stereotyping the blind so they experience such > hardship in the form of hiring discrimination? If society's discrimination > prevents one from "substantial gainful employment" should not this same > society relieve such a blind person of the burden of repayment of such > loans? Curious to know if you believe someone who avails themselves of such > relief is avoiding personal responsibility? > > Respectfully, > > James > > Law Office of J. William Weisberg > 980 9th Street - 16th Floor > Sacramento, California 95814 > V: 916.425.1010 > F: 916.374.7667 > > > > This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are > not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain > this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the > sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications > Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 5:42 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > However, under the new bankruptcy laws student loans are not necessarily > discharged under bankruptcy. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Locke Milholland" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 2:23 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > "Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans." > > > > absolutely True, with some exceptions. > > 15 chapters of Title 11, aka the Bankruptcy code for starters. > > > > Locke > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve P. Deeley" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 3:49 PM > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > > >> Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you > >> get a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to > >> convey? > > your account info for > >>>>> blindlaw: > >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in > sightbb.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. > >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>>> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: > >>>> 02/25/09 > >>>> 06:40:00 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> blindlaw mailing list > >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> blindlaw: > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40g > mail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> blindlaw: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in > sightbb.com > >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > >> > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 > > >> 07:03:00 > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotm > ail.com > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob > al.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 > 0sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009 From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 09:56:18 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 03:56:18 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> References: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> Message-ID: Looking at this test, this is not a big deal to format this for JAWS 8. Its tedious but it can be done. I will start it this weekend, it might take a week or two to lay out depending on my work load. It will also work with a combination of Narrator and Read out Loud so that people who cannot afford screen readers can use it. That is always a good selling point to government regulators. AFB tech says my format works with Window Eyes but I don't have the program. Really I don't see what their problem is in making this accessible. They probably just do not know how to do it. What they have right now is a mess. James On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Bill Spiry wrote: > James, I'd be very interested in what you are doing with this. I'll be > taking the LSAT in June, and I've found the LSAC sampel LSAT test to be > miserably inaccessible with JAWS, blended columns, ordering and tagging is > a > mess, just about totally impossible to read it with any comprehensible > clarity. > > If you've found a way to sort or rearrange the PDF in some way to make it > useable, I'd sure appreciate getting a piece of that. I look forward to > hearing from you. > Thanks. > Bill Spiry > 541-510-2623 > Springfield Oregon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Pepper > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:26 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > Scott: > I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC > website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a > combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those who > do > not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says my > process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. > > It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the form > would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any manual > entry of data. > > If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see what > I > can do! > > James Pepper > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre > wrote: > > > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California Court. > > ************** > > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > > > Disability Rights Advocates > > > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the > Blind > > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs, > > > > v. > > > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > > > Defendant. > > > > > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF > THE > > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, > seeks > > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law > School > > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to > take > > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind > law > > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal access > to > > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" > > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the > > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, advantages > > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test > > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test preparation > > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers > that > > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and > LSAT > > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without > > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, > > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities, > > and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > JURISDICTION > > > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons Act > > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. Civ. > > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil > > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and > California > > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates its > > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > VENUE > > > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the > acts > > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights of > > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons > in > > Alameda County. > > > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and > practice > > materials. > > > > PARTIES > > > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter > "NFB") > > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly > > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal > > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto > Rico. > > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind persons. > > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive agencies > of > > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on > behalf > > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to > promote > > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their > efforts > > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) > removing > > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs > > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created by > > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have > long > > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, so > > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > > States, including the state of California, and many of its members would > use > > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by > > the blind. > > > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation > and > > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters > > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its headquarters > in > > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to > the > > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school > admissions > > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a > > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided by > > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > > > FACTS > > > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. > Lsac.org > > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive services > > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, > lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application > process, and > > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also serves > as > > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to > > ABA-accredited law schools. > > > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > > > a.. Register for the LSAT > > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > > schools > > e.. Apply online to law schools > > f.. Register for law school forums > > g.. Have 24-hour file access > > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to > > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that > > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the > > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and the > > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits > and > > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. > Goraya, > > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure > > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind > > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently apply > to > > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the > > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org > . > > > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction > with > > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a > refreshable > > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. > > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind > persons > > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > > products and services contained therein. > > > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at > least > > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web > Consortium, > > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed > > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines > > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent > free > > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading > software. > > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and > > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow > users > > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be > > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize > the > > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to > > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access > > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online > law > > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack > these > > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to the > > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on the > > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly > "tagged." > > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions and > > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As > a > > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind > > visitor to navigate. > > > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, > available > > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the > > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than > 40 > > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer the > > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible to > > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary > hurdles > > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared > to > > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select > and > > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of > the > > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the > > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions > of > > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. > Lsac.org > > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access > to > > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and > > facilities of lsac.org. > > > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the > Blind > > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. > LSAC > > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal > > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) > > > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > incorporated by reference. > > > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals with > > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the general > > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other places > to > > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and > > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, > is > > an > > > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general > public > > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal > access > > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available > to > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > incorporated by reference. > > > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, > > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and > equal > > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC > and > > lsac.org. > > > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the > rights > > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or > obvious > > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available > to > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > incorporated by reference. > > > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website > > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil > > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this > time > > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and > > duties and act accordingly. > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining > and/or > > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and > > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required > by > > law; > > > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs as > > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., California > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > > Procedure § 1021.5. > > > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems > just > > and proper. > > > > > > > > DATED: > > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > > > > > > By: > > ____________________________ > > > > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > > Denver, Colorado 80222 > > 303 504-5979 (voice) > > 303 757-3640 (fax) > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may > not > > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this > message > > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. > This > > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From JMcCarthy at nfb.org Fri Feb 27 13:40:43 2009 From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org (McCarthy, Jim) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 08:40:43 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course toreviewcasein light of ADAAA In-Reply-To: <61D5D43034C2477CB96DBB287F9647EB@spike> Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B26D5D8@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> We are spending a lot of time deciding if we would or wouldn't have this person perform medical services on us. Though that may be an interesting discussion regarding how comfortable we with blindness are with people having our disability or other disabilities performing complicated procedures, that is not really the importance of the case. As to Chuck's question, I think the person had a learning disability that he asserted caused him to process read material slower than others and required extra time as a result. The original decision, I think, was that he did not have a disability under the ADA so there was no requirement to consider his request. The decision of the 6th circuit was that because of the ADA amendments, it is clear that he has a disability. Now the question is whether or not he should be accommodated in the manner he wants. He has not won yet and he might not. The arguments going forward will be many of those we are having here. Maybe someone who is slow at reading or processing is steady as can be under surgical conditions or other high stress conditions of the practice of medicine and maybe too the person is competent to complete the school education and will do a type of practice not so high stress performance. Perhaps the test advocates can argue successfully that performance of the test under those time limits really is a critical factor. Many of us on this list never had to take the LSAT at all. Others of us who took it did so with accommodations like extra time. Perhaps still others had no time accommodations at all. Those who are practicing an those who went to law school know that reading is a big part of what you do in school and in practice. Many got extra time or did not have to take the test at all, and yet I think most of us believe that it would not be correct practice despite some cases to the contrary to seek extra time from judges because of blindness and whatever challenges we think that might cause. There is an obligation to represent your clients completely regardless. I guess my point is that the career expectations should be the same for people with or without disabilities. This guy may or may not get the chance to take the test the way he thinks he needs and I guess we will see. Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:27 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course toreviewcasein light of ADAAA If I recall there was nothing in this court ruling that even stated that the party had a visual impairment. I don't recall the decision stating what the nature of the disability was. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcasein light of ADAAA no, you don't get the point of my question. if he is in psych, i don't care but if he's wanting to do something involved with internal procedures, i would demand another doc. Bryan Schulz The BEST Solution www.best-acts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Breeze" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcase in light of ADAAA Don't worry Bryan, there are enough sighted doctors that can botch your surgery. Open your yellow pages to the physician reference, there you will find many doctors that are not surgeons that could easily perform their jobs without sight. A very small percentage of doctors are surgeons. Go see a psychiatrist and have him close his eyes, I bet he can still analyze you. Many people in the past and still to this day think that a person needs sight to program computers and develop web pages. On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Bryan Schulz wrote: > what kind of doctor does he want to become? > i don't want a doc to botch a surgery. > > Bryan Schulz > The BEST Solution > www.best-acts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" < > Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:27 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case > in light of ADAAA > > > From Special Ed Connection >> > > Key points: > > 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA > Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test > Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to > whether > accommodation reasonable > Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA > > On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra > time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. > Jenkins > v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). > > The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, > not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been > granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. > > Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of > interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, > which > rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in > light > of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. > National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). > > Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about > accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into > court, > according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in > Austin, Texas. > > "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," > he > said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as > someone > with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the > core requirement of the ADA. > > The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation > for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And > on > that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. > > After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able > to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and > rule > against Jenkins again. > > "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how > quick you are, is how quickly you process." > > But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its > purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a > disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are > requesting is reasonable, Martín said. > > "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able > to > argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable > accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this > is > not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the > case. > That's the fundamental analytical shift." > > Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, > declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will > continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with > qualifying > disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. > > The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules > for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, > public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. > > The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' > ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. > "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." > > Martín did not go that far in his remarks. > > "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed > . > . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light > of > the new law,'" he said. > > Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín > said. > "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as > to > whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, > then > that should be rethought altogether." > > Special Ed Connection® related stories: > > College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations > (Feb. 24) > *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act > Roundup. > > Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special > education issues for LRP Publications. > > February 24, 2009 > > Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nfb.org From angie.matney at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 15:17:08 2009 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:17:08 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit Message-ID: There are books with actual LSAT's on Bookshare. HTH, Angie Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit From: "Bill Spiry" Date: 02/27/2009 1:58 AM Were you able to find some practice tests that were readable using a screen reader like JAWS? The practice test on the LSAC site are crummy for accessibility. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:29 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > From: bspiry at comcast.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare for > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > appreciated. > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > additional time? > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > Bill Spiry > 541-510-2623 > Springfield Oregon > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in the > time they are allow. > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I finished > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot mail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore _022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 15:37:53 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:37:53 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> <20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> Okay, since I started this somehow, I want to clarify two points: First point: I do\ not wish to use blindness as a reason for not working, since I was blind when I went to college. In light of my progressive and now severe hearing loss, however, and the compounded difficulties in obtaining that employment, I wish to be either left alone, or put on a drastically reduced pay schedule, until and unless I acquire a job that allows me, as was the original intent, to pay the loans back without unduly stressing myself financially or domestically. Second point, call it B: I do not wish or wish to seem to espouse the moral stance that blind people, myself or anyone else, should be given a get out of debt free card. As stated above, if an arrangement whereby I could pay $20 per month were reached, I should be most timely with these payments, as they do not unduly stress me, until such time as I have acquired that dream job in the adaptive tech field in which my true genius can shine, and in which I am *PAID* congruent with my genius... Or until I win the lottery, sell a body organ, compose, arrange and produce that one-hit wonder song, ... I trust this is clear. Point Number Gamma: There is *NO!* point letter three! From bspiry at comcast.net Fri Feb 27 15:45:19 2009 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:45:19 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> Message-ID: <002701c998f2$64c17f40$2e447dc0$@net> If you'd be willing to share a copy once you've reformatted, I'd certainly appreciate it. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Pepper Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 1:56 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint Looking at this test, this is not a big deal to format this for JAWS 8. Its tedious but it can be done. I will start it this weekend, it might take a week or two to lay out depending on my work load. It will also work with a combination of Narrator and Read out Loud so that people who cannot afford screen readers can use it. That is always a good selling point to government regulators. AFB tech says my format works with Window Eyes but I don't have the program. Really I don't see what their problem is in making this accessible. They probably just do not know how to do it. What they have right now is a mess. James On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Bill Spiry wrote: > James, I'd be very interested in what you are doing with this. I'll be > taking the LSAT in June, and I've found the LSAC sampel LSAT test to be > miserably inaccessible with JAWS, blended columns, ordering and tagging is > a > mess, just about totally impossible to read it with any comprehensible > clarity. > > If you've found a way to sort or rearrange the PDF in some way to make it > useable, I'd sure appreciate getting a piece of that. I look forward to > hearing from you. > Thanks. > Bill Spiry > 541-510-2623 > Springfield Oregon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Pepper > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:26 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > Scott: > I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC > website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a > combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those who > do > not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says my > process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. > > It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the form > would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any manual > entry of data. > > If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see what > I > can do! > > James Pepper > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre > wrote: > > > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California Court. > > ************** > > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > > > Disability Rights Advocates > > > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the > Blind > > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs, > > > > v. > > > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > > > Defendant. > > > > > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF > THE > > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, > seeks > > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law > School > > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to > take > > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind > law > > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal access > to > > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" > > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the > > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, advantages > > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test > > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test preparation > > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers > that > > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and > LSAT > > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without > > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, > > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities, > > and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > JURISDICTION > > > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons Act > > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. Civ. > > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil > > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and > California > > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates its > > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > VENUE > > > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the > acts > > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights of > > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons > in > > Alameda County. > > > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and > practice > > materials. > > > > PARTIES > > > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter > "NFB") > > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly > > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal > > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto > Rico. > > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind persons. > > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive agencies > of > > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on > behalf > > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to > promote > > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their > efforts > > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) > removing > > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs > > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created by > > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have > long > > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, so > > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > > States, including the state of California, and many of its members would > use > > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by > > the blind. > > > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation > and > > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters > > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its headquarters > in > > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to > the > > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school > admissions > > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a > > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided by > > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > > > FACTS > > > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. > Lsac.org > > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive services > > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, > lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application > process, and > > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also serves > as > > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to > > ABA-accredited law schools. > > > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > > > a.. Register for the LSAT > > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > > schools > > e.. Apply online to law schools > > f.. Register for law school forums > > g.. Have 24-hour file access > > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to > > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that > > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the > > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and the > > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits > and > > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. > Goraya, > > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure > > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind > > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently apply > to > > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the > > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org > . > > > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction > with > > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a > refreshable > > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. > > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind > persons > > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > > products and services contained therein. > > > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at > least > > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web > Consortium, > > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed > > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines > > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent > free > > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading > software. > > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and > > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow > users > > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be > > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize > the > > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to > > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access > > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online > law > > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack > these > > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to the > > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on the > > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly > "tagged." > > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions and > > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As > a > > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind > > visitor to navigate. > > > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, > available > > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the > > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than > 40 > > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer the > > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible to > > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary > hurdles > > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared > to > > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select > and > > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of > the > > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the > > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions > of > > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. > Lsac.org > > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access > to > > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and > > facilities of lsac.org. > > > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the > Blind > > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. > LSAC > > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal > > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) > > > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > incorporated by reference. > > > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals with > > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the general > > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other places > to > > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and > > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, > is > > an > > > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general > public > > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal > access > > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available > to > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > incorporated by reference. > > > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, > > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and > equal > > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC > and > > lsac.org. > > > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the > rights > > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or > obvious > > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available > to > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > incorporated by reference. > > > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website > > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil > > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this > time > > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and > > duties and act accordingly. > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining > and/or > > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and > > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required > by > > law; > > > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs as > > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., California > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > > Procedure § 1021.5. > > > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems > just > > and proper. > > > > > > > > DATED: > > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > > > > > > By: > > ____________________________ > > > > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > > Denver, Colorado 80222 > > 303 504-5979 (voice) > > 303 757-3640 (fax) > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may > not > > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this > message > > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. > This > > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Fri Feb 27 16:02:50 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 08:02:50 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments, Purpose of This List In-Reply-To: References: <00C11257FFE64F2CA32E03EEFE6C43EC@JamesWeisberg> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B317@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Hi Group, While I genuinely understand the importance of this discussion, all but a few tiny pieces of the posts on this thread have been unrelated to the legal focus of this list. Yes, social policy is often intertwined with law as it needs to be, but there are some two dozen notes just in the past 24 hours on this thread, with precious little new being mentioned on the legal front. There was some very useful specifics about which kinds of payments can or cannot be garnished, and on federal law provisions for getting student loans cancelled under certain circumstances. However, those two legal aspects were almost totally lost in all the volume of discussion on other aspects of this issue. I apologize for even mentioning all this, but the reality is that if notes on a list become fairly wide off the mark of the intended purpose of the list, then people find it hard to come up with the time to read through all the long strings looking for something they can apply to their legal practice or experience. Sincerely, Tim Ford From timandvickie at hotmail.com Fri Feb 27 18:11:05 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:11:05 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: <002701c998f2$64c17f40$2e447dc0$@net> References: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> <002701c998f2$64c17f40$2e447dc0$@net> Message-ID: if you have the full version of adobe you could always convert from pdf to word then change from ultiple columns to one;) > From: bspiry at comcast.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:45:19 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > If you'd be willing to share a copy once you've reformatted, I'd certainly > appreciate it. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Pepper > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 1:56 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > Looking at this test, this is not a big deal to format this for JAWS 8. Its > tedious but it can be done. I will start it this weekend, it might take a > week or two to lay out depending on my work load. It will also work with a > combination of Narrator and Read out Loud so that people who cannot afford > screen readers can use it. That is always a good selling point to > government regulators. AFB tech says my format works with Window Eyes but I > don't have the program. > Really I don't see what their problem is in making this accessible. They > probably just do not know how to do it. What they have right now is a mess. > > James > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Bill Spiry wrote: > > > James, I'd be very interested in what you are doing with this. I'll be > > taking the LSAT in June, and I've found the LSAC sampel LSAT test to be > > miserably inaccessible with JAWS, blended columns, ordering and tagging is > > a > > mess, just about totally impossible to read it with any comprehensible > > clarity. > > > > If you've found a way to sort or rearrange the PDF in some way to make it > > useable, I'd sure appreciate getting a piece of that. I look forward to > > hearing from you. > > Thanks. > > Bill Spiry > > 541-510-2623 > > Springfield Oregon > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > Behalf Of James Pepper > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:26 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > Scott: > > I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC > > website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a > > combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those who > > do > > not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says my > > process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. > > > > It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the form > > would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any manual > > entry of data. > > > > If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see what > > I > > can do! > > > > James Pepper > > > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre > > wrote: > > > > > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California > Court. > > > ************** > > > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > > > > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > > > > > Disability Rights Advocates > > > > > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > > > > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > > > > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > > > > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > > > > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > > > > > > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > > > > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > > > > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > > > > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > > > > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > > > > > > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > > > > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > > > > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > > > > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > > > > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > > > > > > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > > > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > > > > > > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the > > Blind > > > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs, > > > > > > v. > > > > > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > > > > > Defendant. > > > > > > > > > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF > > THE > > > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > > > > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > > > > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > > > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, > > seeks > > > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law > > School > > > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to > > take > > > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind > > law > > > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal > access > > to > > > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > > > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" > > > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the > > > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > > > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, > advantages > > > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > > > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test > > > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test > preparation > > > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers > > that > > > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and > > LSAT > > > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without > > > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, > > > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, > facilities, > > > and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > > > JURISDICTION > > > > > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons > Act > > > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. > Civ. > > > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > > > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil > > > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and > > California > > > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > > > > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > > > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > > > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates > its > > > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > > > > > VENUE > > > > > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > > > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > > > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the > > acts > > > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights > of > > > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons > > in > > > Alameda County. > > > > > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > > > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and > > practice > > > materials. > > > > > > PARTIES > > > > > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter > > "NFB") > > > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > > > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly > > > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal > > > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > > > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto > > Rico. > > > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind > persons. > > > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive > agencies > > of > > > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on > > behalf > > > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to > > promote > > > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their > > efforts > > > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) > > removing > > > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs > > > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created > by > > > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > > > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have > > long > > > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, > so > > > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > > > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > > > States, including the state of California, and many of its members would > > use > > > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by > > > the blind. > > > > > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > > > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > > > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation > > and > > > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters > > > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its > headquarters > > in > > > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > > > > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > > > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to > > the > > > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > > > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school > > admissions > > > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a > > > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided > by > > > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > > > > > FACTS > > > > > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. > > Lsac.org > > > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive > services > > > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > > > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > > > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, > > lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application > > process, and > > > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also > serves > > as > > > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to > > > ABA-accredited law schools. > > > > > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > > > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > > > > > a.. Register for the LSAT > > > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > > > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > > > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > > > schools > > > e.. Apply online to law schools > > > f.. Register for law school forums > > > g.. Have 24-hour file access > > > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > > > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to > > > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that > > > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the > > > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > > > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and > the > > > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > > > > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits > > and > > > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. > > Goraya, > > > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure > > > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind > > > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently > apply > > to > > > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the > > > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org > > . > > > > > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction > > with > > > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a > > refreshable > > > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. > > > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind > > persons > > > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > > > products and services contained therein. > > > > > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > > > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at > > least > > > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > > > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > > > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web > > Consortium, > > > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed > > > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > > > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > > > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines > > > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > > > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > > > > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent > > free > > > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading > > software. > > > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > > > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and > > > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow > > users > > > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be > > > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize > > the > > > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > > > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to > > > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > > > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access > > > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online > > law > > > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack > > these > > > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to > the > > > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > > > > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on > the > > > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly > > "tagged." > > > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions > and > > > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As > > a > > > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind > > > visitor to navigate. > > > > > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, > > available > > > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the > > > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than > > 40 > > > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer > the > > > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible > to > > > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > > > > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > > > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary > > hurdles > > > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared > > to > > > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > > > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > > > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select > > and > > > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of > > the > > > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the > > > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions > > of > > > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. > > Lsac.org > > > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access > > to > > > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and > > > facilities of lsac.org. > > > > > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the > > Blind > > > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. > > LSAC > > > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > > > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal > > > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > > > > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) > > > > > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals > with > > > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the > general > > > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other > places > > to > > > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and > > > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > > > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > > > > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, > > is > > > an > > > > > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general > > public > > > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > > > > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > > > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal > > access > > > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > > > > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available > > to > > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > > > > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > > > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, > facilities, > > > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > > > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > > > > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > > > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > > > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > > > > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > > > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and > > equal > > > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC > > and > > > lsac.org. > > > > > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > > > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the > > rights > > > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or > > obvious > > > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > > > > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available > > to > > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > > > > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > > > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > > > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > > > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website > > > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil > > > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > > > > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this > > time > > > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and > > > duties and act accordingly. > > > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > > > > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > > > > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > > > > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining > > and/or > > > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and > > > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required > > by > > > law; > > > > > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs > as > > > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., > California > > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > > > Procedure § 1021.5. > > > > > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems > > just > > > and proper. > > > > > > > > > > > > DATED: > > > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By: > > > ____________________________ > > > > > > > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > > > > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > > > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > > > Denver, Colorado 80222 > > > 303 504-5979 (voice) > > > 303 757-3640 (fax) > > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > > > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > > > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may > > not > > > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this > > message > > > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. > > This > > > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > > > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > et > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 From mikefry79 at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 19:36:23 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:36:23 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> References: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> <20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902271136u417c05b5s6ee72e015fc13552@mail.gmail.com> Good luck Mark I sincerely hope that you're able to write the loans off. Hopefully, you'll be able to use the same method that J. William Weisberg described above to get rid of his. In any event try not to let it stress you out to much because even in the worse case scenario there's not debtors prison or anything like that. On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 7:37 AM, Mark BurningHawk wrote: > Okay, since I started this somehow, I want to clarify two points: > First point: I do\ not wish to use blindness as a reason for not working, > since I was blind when I went to college. In light of my progressive and > now severe hearing loss, however, and the compounded difficulties in > obtaining that employment, I wish to be either left alone, or put on a > drastically reduced pay schedule, until and unless I acquire a job that > allows me, as was the original intent, to pay the loans back without unduly > stressing myself financially or domestically. > Second point, call it B: I do not wish or wish to seem to espouse the > moral stance that blind people, myself or anyone else, should be given a get > out of debt free card. As stated above, if an arrangement whereby I could > pay $20 per month were reached, I should be most timely with these payments, > as they do not unduly stress me, until such time as I have acquired that > dream job in the adaptive tech field in which my true genius can shine, and > in which I am *PAID* congruent with my genius... Or until I win the > lottery, sell a body organ, compose, arrange and produce that one-hit wonder > song, ... I trust this is clear. > Point Number Gamma: There is *NO!* point letter three! > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From mikefry79 at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 19:54:40 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:54:40 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902271154p7e9b0c63uab8a502fb4d51ab3@mail.gmail.com> My advice, Bill, is to ask for at least double time to take the test, my experience was that I needed every minute of it. In addition, take the Kaplan Review course for the LSAT. It improved my score by at least 10 points. Plus Kaplan will accomodate your disability and give you experience using the accomdations while taking the practice tests. You only want to take the LSAT once because it's a pain in the ass and if you take the test multiple times LSAC will average the scores together. Mike Feb 27, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Angie Matney wrote: > There are books with actual LSAT's on Bookshare. > > HTH, > > Angie > > Sent from my Nokia N82. > > -original message- > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > From: "Bill Spiry" > Date: 02/27/2009 1:58 AM > > Were you able to find some practice tests that were readable using a screen > reader like JAWS? The practice test on the LSAC site are crummy for > accessibility. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:29 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest > bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I > could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > > > From: bspiry at comcast.net > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare > for > > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > > appreciated. > > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > > additional time? > > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > > Bill Spiry > > 541-510-2623 > > Springfield Oregon > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in > the > > time they are allow. > > > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra > time. > > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea > if > > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I > finished > > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > > > > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > > _022009 > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > et > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot > mail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 21:01:52 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:01:52 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> <002701c998f2$64c17f40$2e447dc0$@net> Message-ID: This is a pdf file, you should not have to convert it to text to make it work. Besides if this file was laid out properly you could convert it to one column using Reflow. No, the problem here is how the PDF was laid out and this is a common problem in many documents. They did not use the right programs to lay it out and turn it into a PDF files. For instance question number three in reflow is thus: 3.Ifthethirddigitofanacceptableproductcodeisnot0,whichoneofthefollowingmustbetrue? I can make the form accessible so you do not have to get someone to help you fill that out. I will put into my book a section on how to fix the LSAT. This actually is a common layout problem that I see a lot in forms and documents so this would be a good example to illustrate the solution. I will use a government form to illustrate that chapter but the LSAT is doing the same thing. The only set of questions that will be a distinct problem are the visual logic questions. They are map questions but what they really are is a set of visual logic questions where you have to be able to see to work them out. They seem to be the same sort of thing you find in IQ tests where you have to arrange a set of blocks to form an object, with the exception that they include objects that do not apply, shapes that would interfere with the structure of the set of blocks. In the IQ test it measures your ability to handle 3 dimensions and I think a similar test should be used in the LSAT test. I ran into a lot of this type of testing in Architecture School. It is a big problem if you cannot think in three dimensions. My church is expanding its ampitheatre and they were all convinced that they would have a set of new hallways on the plans so that people could enter the theatre at the bottom of the hall so that they could use elevators for the disabled people. But the hallways were actually the stairs for the theatre where people got into the seats and they realized once if was built that they had no way to get people to the bottom of the theatre unless they opened up a storage closet and turned it into a hallway. The funny thing is that in the renovation, they did it again! They got the steps mixed up with the hallways on the plans. They just cannot think 3 dimensionally. So clearly this question will have to be redone. There is a map on the National Voter Registration form and this was a big contentious problem especially for the state of Arkansas which insisted that the blind were able to do this in the past on their voter registration form. Of course everyone got help to make this map. On the form you are to located two sets of lines which indicate cross streets. You are to label these cross streets with the names of your closest cross streets, then you place an X on the form of your home's position relative to these cross streets. Then you place marks and write in the locations of your police stations, court houses and other landmarks onto this map. I suggested that this be replaced by a form field where people describe where they live relative to the nearest cross street. Arkansas insisted on the map so their poll workers could find the applicant and so the blind must get assistance in Arkansas to fill out their applications form. The National Form also requires the blind to get assistance to fill out the form. I suggested using GPS. I made the form so there is no need for assistance. You just fill it out, like anyone else and you don't have to go all over the document to find the content, it is right there in front of you. So I will look at the LSAT and lay it out properly. See what I can do to solve this problem. The key here is to make sur ethey understand that the blind can do this all by themselves, they do not need assistance. This attitude of insisting they have help is why nobody goes the extra mile and make documents forms and tests completely accessible. They just do not have the right atttitude! James Pepper On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 12:11 PM, tim and vickie shaw < timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote: > > if you have the full version of adobe you could always convert from pdf to > word then change from ultiple columns to one;) > > > From: bspiry at comcast.net > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:45:19 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > If you'd be willing to share a copy once you've reformatted, I'd > certainly > > appreciate it. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > Behalf Of James Pepper > > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 1:56 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > Looking at this test, this is not a big deal to format this for JAWS 8. > Its > > tedious but it can be done. I will start it this weekend, it might take a > > week or two to lay out depending on my work load. It will also work with > a > > combination of Narrator and Read out Loud so that people who cannot > afford > > screen readers can use it. That is always a good selling point to > > government regulators. AFB tech says my format works with Window Eyes but > I > > don't have the program. > > Really I don't see what their problem is in making this accessible. They > > probably just do not know how to do it. What they have right now is a > mess. > > > > James > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Bill Spiry wrote: > > > > > James, I'd be very interested in what you are doing with this. I'll be > > > taking the LSAT in June, and I've found the LSAC sampel LSAT test to be > > > miserably inaccessible with JAWS, blended columns, ordering and tagging > is > > > a > > > mess, just about totally impossible to read it with any comprehensible > > > clarity. > > > > > > If you've found a way to sort or rearrange the PDF in some way to make > it > > > useable, I'd sure appreciate getting a piece of that. I look forward to > > > hearing from you. > > > Thanks. > > > Bill Spiry > > > 541-510-2623 > > > Springfield Oregon > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > > Behalf Of James Pepper > > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:26 AM > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > > > Scott: > > > I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC > > > website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a > > > combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those > who > > > do > > > not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says > my > > > process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. > > > > > > It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the > form > > > would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any > manual > > > entry of data. > > > > > > If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see > what > > > I > > > can do! > > > > > > James Pepper > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California > > Court. > > > > ************** > > > > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > > > > > > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > > > > > > > Disability Rights Advocates > > > > > > > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > > > > > > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > > > > > > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > > > > > > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > > > > > > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > > > > > > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > > > > > > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > > > > > > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > > > > > > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > > > > > > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > > > > > > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > > > > > > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > > > > > > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > > > > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the > > > Blind > > > > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs, > > > > > > > > v. > > > > > > > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > > > > > > > Defendant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF > > > THE > > > > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > > > > > > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > > > > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, > > > seeks > > > > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law > > > School > > > > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking > to > > > take > > > > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a > blind > > > law > > > > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal > > access > > > to > > > > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > > > > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter " > lsac.org" > > > > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and > the > > > > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > > > > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, > > advantages > > > > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > > > > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions > Test > > > > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test > > preparation > > > > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers > > > that > > > > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants > and > > > LSAT > > > > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials > without > > > > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. > Goraya, > > > > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, > > facilities, > > > > and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > JURISDICTION > > > > > > > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons > > Act > > > > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. > > Civ. > > > > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > > > > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California > Civil > > > > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and > > > California > > > > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > > > > > > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > > > > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > > > > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates > > its > > > > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > VENUE > > > > > > > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > > > > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > > > > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the > > > acts > > > > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the > rights > > of > > > > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to > patrons > > > in > > > > Alameda County. > > > > > > > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > > > > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and > > > practice > > > > materials. > > > > > > > > PARTIES > > > > > > > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter > > > "NFB") > > > > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > > > > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation > duly > > > > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its > principal > > > > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > > > > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto > > > Rico. > > > > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind > > persons. > > > > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive > > agencies > > > of > > > > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on > > > behalf > > > > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to > > > promote > > > > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their > > > efforts > > > > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) > > > removing > > > > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken > beliefs > > > > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations > created > > by > > > > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > > > > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have > > > long > > > > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the > blind, > > so > > > > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > > > > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > > > > States, including the state of California, and many of its members > would > > > use > > > > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently > usable by > > > > the blind. > > > > > > > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > > > > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > > > > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California > corporation > > > and > > > > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local > chapters > > > > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its > > headquarters > > > in > > > > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > > > > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to > > > the > > > > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > > > > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school > > > admissions > > > > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, > a > > > > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided > > by > > > > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > > > > > > > FACTS > > > > > > > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. > > > Lsac.org > > > > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive > > services > > > > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > > > > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > > > > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, > > > lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application > > > process, and > > > > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also > > serves > > > as > > > > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying > to > > > > ABA-accredited law schools. > > > > > > > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > > > > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > > > > > > > a.. Register for the LSAT > > > > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > > > > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > > > > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > > > > schools > > > > e.. Apply online to law schools > > > > f.. Register for law school forums > > > > g.. Have 24-hour file access > > > > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > > > > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted > to > > > > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in > that > > > > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for > the > > > > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > > > > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and > > the > > > > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > > > > > > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the > benefits > > > and > > > > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. > > > Goraya, > > > > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's > failure > > > > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, > blind > > > > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently > > apply > > > to > > > > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format > the > > > > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through > lsac.org > > > . > > > > > > > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction > > > with > > > > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a > > > refreshable > > > > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer > screen. > > > > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind > > > persons > > > > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > > > > products and services contained therein. > > > > > > > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > > > > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at > > > least > > > > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > > > > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > > > > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web > > > Consortium, > > > > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has > developed > > > > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > > > > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > > > > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These > guidelines > > > > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > > > > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > > > > > > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent > > > free > > > > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading > > > software. > > > > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > > > > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables > and > > > > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow > > > users > > > > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must > be > > > > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and > vocalize > > > the > > > > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > > > > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed > to > > > > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > > > > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with > screen-access > > > > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online > > > law > > > > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, > lack > > > these > > > > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to > > the > > > > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > > > > > > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on > > the > > > > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly > > > "tagged." > > > > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions > > and > > > > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. > As > > > a > > > > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a > blind > > > > visitor to navigate. > > > > > > > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, > > > available > > > > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to > the > > > > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more > than > > > 40 > > > > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer > > the > > > > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats > accessible > > to > > > > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > > > > > > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > > > > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary > > > hurdles > > > > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school > compared > > > to > > > > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > > > > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > > > > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to > select > > > and > > > > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content > of > > > the > > > > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of > the > > > > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered > versions > > > of > > > > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. > > > Lsac.org > > > > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal > access > > > to > > > > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, > and > > > > facilities of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the > > > Blind > > > > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. > > > LSAC > > > > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > > > > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue > legal > > > > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > > > > > > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons > Act) > > > > > > > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals > > with > > > > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the > > general > > > > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other > > places > > > to > > > > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions > and > > > > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > > > > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > > > > > > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, > > > is > > > > an > > > > > > > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general > > > public > > > > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > > > > > > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > > > > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal > > > access > > > > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief > requiring > > > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to > make > > > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons > available > > > to > > > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > > > > > > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > > > > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, > > facilities, > > > > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > > > > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > > > > > > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > > > > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > > > > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > > > > > > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > > > > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and > > > equal > > > > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of > LSAC > > > and > > > > lsac.org. > > > > > > > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > > > > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the > > > rights > > > > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or > > > obvious > > > > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > > > > > > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief > requiring > > > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to > make > > > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons > available > > > to > > > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > > > > > > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > > > > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > > > > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > > > > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and > website > > > > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California > Civil > > > > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > > > > > > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this > > > time > > > > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights > and > > > > duties and act accordingly. > > > > > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > > > > > > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > > > > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > > > > > > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > > > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > > > > > > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining > > > and/or > > > > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind > and > > > > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as > required > > > by > > > > law; > > > > > > > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs > > as > > > > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., > > California > > > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > > > > Procedure § 1021.5. > > > > > > > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems > > > just > > > > and proper. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DATED: > > > > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By: > > > > ____________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > > > > > > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > > > > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > > > > Denver, Colorado 80222 > > > > 303 504-5979 (voice) > > > > 303 757-3640 (fax) > > > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > > > > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > > > > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you > may > > > not > > > > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this > > > message > > > > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > > > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. > > > This > > > > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > > > > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > > et > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > et > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 22:24:44 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:24:44 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902271136u417c05b5s6ee72e015fc13552@mail.gmail.com> References: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net><317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg><20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net><155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> <8c58e54a0902271136u417c05b5s6ee72e015fc13552@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5770A30169DF4472962486B93FF6616B@JamesWeisberg> Mark: I specifically remember the code stating "if the debtor is disabled when they sign their promissory note, AND subsequently their disability becomes substantially worse . . . ," the debtor may avail themselves of the provisions of the code on cancellation I described earlier. This was the facts in the case I handled. Further, under this standard, if a second disability like hearing loss set in after the note was signed you're golden. That combined with your vision issues certainly would meet the standard. Time to shop for a doc Mark! That code provision is there for such situations. James Law Office of J. William Weisberg 980 9th Street - 16th Floor Sacramento, California 95814 V: 916.425.1010 F: 916.374.7667 This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Fry Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:36 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments Good luck Mark I sincerely hope that you're able to write the loans off. Hopefully, you'll be able to use the same method that J. William Weisberg described above to get rid of his. In any event try not to let it stress you out to much because even in the worse case scenario there's not debtors prison or anything like that. On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 7:37 AM, Mark BurningHawk wrote: > Okay, since I started this somehow, I want to clarify two points: > First point: I do\ not wish to use blindness as a reason for not working, > since I was blind when I went to college. In light of my progressive and > now severe hearing loss, however, and the compounded difficulties in > obtaining that employment, I wish to be either left alone, or put on a > drastically reduced pay schedule, until and unless I acquire a job that > allows me, as was the original intent, to pay the loans back without unduly > stressing myself financially or domestically. > Second point, call it B: I do not wish or wish to seem to espouse the > moral stance that blind people, myself or anyone else, should be given a get > out of debt free card. As stated above, if an arrangement whereby I could > pay $20 per month were reached, I should be most timely with these payments, > as they do not unduly stress me, until such time as I have acquired that > dream job in the adaptive tech field in which my true genius can shine, and > in which I am *PAID* congruent with my genius... Or until I win the > lottery, sell a body organ, compose, arrange and produce that one-hit wonder > song, ... I trust this is clear. > Point Number Gamma: There is *NO!* point letter three! > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail. com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 0sbcglobal.net From timandvickie at hotmail.com Sat Feb 28 00:40:34 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:40:34 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> <002701c998f2$64c17f40$2e447dc0$@net> Message-ID: oh i just remembred something iw anted ot ask everyoen about when they took teir lsat. Section 2 of my test wasnt there. it said "this section has been deleted" and when they test proctors tried to call LSAT to find out why and what to do all they would say is "the section was deleted on purpose, but we cant say why for confidentiality reasons" does anyone have any idea what this may be about? > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:01:52 -0600 > From: b75205 at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > This is a pdf file, you should not have to convert it to text to make it > work. Besides if this file was laid out properly you could convert it to one > column using Reflow. No, the problem here is how the PDF was laid out and > this is a common problem in many documents. They did not use the right > programs to lay it out and turn it into a PDF files. > > For instance question number three in reflow is thus: > 3.Ifthethirddigitofanacceptableproductcodeisnot0,whichoneofthefollowingmustbetrue? > I can make the form accessible so you do not have to get someone to help you > fill that out. > > I will put into my book a section on how to fix the LSAT. This actually is a > common layout problem that I see a lot in forms and documents so this would > be a good example to illustrate the solution. I will use a government form > to illustrate that chapter but the LSAT is doing the same thing. > > The only set of questions that will be a distinct problem are the visual > logic questions. They are map questions but what they really are is a set of > visual logic questions where you have to be able to see to work them out. > > They seem to be the same sort of thing you find in IQ tests where you have > to arrange a set of blocks to form an object, with the exception that they > include objects that do not apply, shapes that would interfere with the > structure of the set of blocks. In the IQ test it measures your ability to > handle 3 dimensions and I think a similar test should be used in the LSAT > test. > > I ran into a lot of this type of testing in Architecture School. It is a > big problem if you cannot think in three dimensions. My church is expanding > its ampitheatre and they were all convinced that they would have a set of > new hallways on the plans so that people could enter the theatre at the > bottom of the hall so that they could use elevators for the disabled > people. But the hallways were actually the stairs for the theatre where > people got into the seats and they realized once if was built that they had > no way to get people to the bottom of the theatre unless they opened up a > storage closet and turned it into a hallway. > > The funny thing is that in the renovation, they did it again! They got the > steps mixed up with the hallways on the plans. They just cannot think 3 > dimensionally. > > So clearly this question will have to be redone. There is a map on the > National Voter Registration form and this was a big contentious problem > especially for the state of Arkansas which insisted that the blind were able > to do this in the past on their voter registration form. Of course everyone > got help to make this map. > > On the form you are to located two sets of lines which indicate cross > streets. You are to label these cross streets with the names of your > closest cross streets, then you place an X on the form of your home's > position relative to these cross streets. Then you place marks and write in > the locations of your police stations, court houses and other landmarks onto > this map. > > I suggested that this be replaced by a form field where people describe > where they live relative to the nearest cross street. Arkansas insisted on > the map so their poll workers could find the applicant and so the blind must > get assistance in Arkansas to fill out their applications form. The > National Form also requires the blind to get assistance to fill out the > form. > > I suggested using GPS. > > I made the form so there is no need for assistance. You just fill it out, > like anyone else and you don't have to go all over the document to find the > content, it is right there in front of you. > > So I will look at the LSAT and lay it out properly. See what I can do to > solve this problem. The key here is to make sur ethey understand that the > blind can do this all by themselves, they do not need assistance. This > attitude of insisting they have help is why nobody goes the extra mile and > make documents forms and tests completely accessible. They just do not have > the right atttitude! > > James Pepper > > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 12:11 PM, tim and vickie shaw < > timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > if you have the full version of adobe you could always convert from pdf to > > word then change from ultiple columns to one;) > > > > > From: bspiry at comcast.net > > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:45:19 -0800 > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > > > If you'd be willing to share a copy once you've reformatted, I'd > > certainly > > > appreciate it. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > > On > > > Behalf Of James Pepper > > > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 1:56 AM > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > > > Looking at this test, this is not a big deal to format this for JAWS 8. > > Its > > > tedious but it can be done. I will start it this weekend, it might take a > > > week or two to lay out depending on my work load. It will also work with > > a > > > combination of Narrator and Read out Loud so that people who cannot > > afford > > > screen readers can use it. That is always a good selling point to > > > government regulators. AFB tech says my format works with Window Eyes but > > I > > > don't have the program. > > > Really I don't see what their problem is in making this accessible. They > > > probably just do not know how to do it. What they have right now is a > > mess. > > > > > > James > > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Bill Spiry wrote: > > > > > > > James, I'd be very interested in what you are doing with this. I'll be > > > > taking the LSAT in June, and I've found the LSAC sampel LSAT test to be > > > > miserably inaccessible with JAWS, blended columns, ordering and tagging > > is > > > > a > > > > mess, just about totally impossible to read it with any comprehensible > > > > clarity. > > > > > > > > If you've found a way to sort or rearrange the PDF in some way to make > > it > > > > useable, I'd sure appreciate getting a piece of that. I look forward to > > > > hearing from you. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Bill Spiry > > > > 541-510-2623 > > > > Springfield Oregon > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > > On > > > > Behalf Of James Pepper > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:26 AM > > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > > > > > Scott: > > > > I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC > > > > website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a > > > > combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those > > who > > > > do > > > > not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says > > my > > > > process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. > > > > > > > > It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the > > form > > > > would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any > > manual > > > > entry of data. > > > > > > > > If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see > > what > > > > I > > > > can do! > > > > > > > > James Pepper > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California > > > Court. > > > > > ************** > > > > > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > > > > > > > > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > > > > > > > > > Disability Rights Advocates > > > > > > > > > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > > > > > > > > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > > > > > > > > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > > > > > > > > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > > > > > > > > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > > > > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > > > > > > > > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > > > > > > > > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > > > > > > > > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > > > > > > > > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > > > > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > > > > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > > > > > > > > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > > > > > > > > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > > > > > > > > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > > > > > > > > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > > > > > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the > > > > Blind > > > > > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs, > > > > > > > > > > v. > > > > > > > > > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > > > > > > > > > Defendant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF > > > > THE > > > > > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > > > > > > > > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > > > > > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, > > > > seeks > > > > > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law > > > > School > > > > > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking > > to > > > > take > > > > > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a > > blind > > > > law > > > > > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal > > > access > > > > to > > > > > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > > > > > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter " > > lsac.org" > > > > > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and > > the > > > > > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > > > > > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, > > > advantages > > > > > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > > > > > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions > > Test > > > > > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test > > > preparation > > > > > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers > > > > that > > > > > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants > > and > > > > LSAT > > > > > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials > > without > > > > > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. > > Goraya, > > > > > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, > > > facilities, > > > > > and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > > > JURISDICTION > > > > > > > > > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons > > > Act > > > > > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. > > > Civ. > > > > > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > > > > > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California > > Civil > > > > > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and > > > > California > > > > > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > > > > > > > > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > > > > > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > > > > > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates > > > its > > > > > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > VENUE > > > > > > > > > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > > > > > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > > > > > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the > > > > acts > > > > > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the > > rights > > > of > > > > > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to > > patrons > > > > in > > > > > Alameda County. > > > > > > > > > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > > > > > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and > > > > practice > > > > > materials. > > > > > > > > > > PARTIES > > > > > > > > > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter > > > > "NFB") > > > > > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > > > > > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation > > duly > > > > > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its > > principal > > > > > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > > > > > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto > > > > Rico. > > > > > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind > > > persons. > > > > > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive > > > agencies > > > > of > > > > > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on > > > > behalf > > > > > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to > > > > promote > > > > > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their > > > > efforts > > > > > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) > > > > removing > > > > > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken > > beliefs > > > > > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations > > created > > > by > > > > > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > > > > > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have > > > > long > > > > > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the > > blind, > > > so > > > > > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > > > > > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > > > > > States, including the state of California, and many of its members > > would > > > > use > > > > > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently > > usable by > > > > > the blind. > > > > > > > > > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > > > > > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > > > > > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California > > corporation > > > > and > > > > > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local > > chapters > > > > > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its > > > headquarters > > > > in > > > > > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > > > > > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to > > > > the > > > > > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > > > > > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school > > > > admissions > > > > > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, > > a > > > > > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided > > > by > > > > > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > > > > > > > > > FACTS > > > > > > > > > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. > > > > Lsac.org > > > > > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive > > > services > > > > > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > > > > > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > > > > > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, > > > > lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application > > > > process, and > > > > > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also > > > serves > > > > as > > > > > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying > > to > > > > > ABA-accredited law schools. > > > > > > > > > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > > > > > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > > > > > > > > > a.. Register for the LSAT > > > > > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > > > > > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > > > > > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > > > > > schools > > > > > e.. Apply online to law schools > > > > > f.. Register for law school forums > > > > > g.. Have 24-hour file access > > > > > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > > > > > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted > > to > > > > > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in > > that > > > > > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for > > the > > > > > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > > > > > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and > > > the > > > > > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > > > > > > > > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the > > benefits > > > > and > > > > > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. > > > > Goraya, > > > > > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's > > failure > > > > > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, > > blind > > > > > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently > > > apply > > > > to > > > > > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format > > the > > > > > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through > > lsac.org > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction > > > > with > > > > > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a > > > > refreshable > > > > > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer > > screen. > > > > > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind > > > > persons > > > > > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > > > > > products and services contained therein. > > > > > > > > > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > > > > > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at > > > > least > > > > > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > > > > > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > > > > > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web > > > > Consortium, > > > > > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has > > developed > > > > > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > > > > > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > > > > > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These > > guidelines > > > > > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > > > > > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > > > > > > > > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent > > > > free > > > > > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading > > > > software. > > > > > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > > > > > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables > > and > > > > > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow > > > > users > > > > > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must > > be > > > > > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and > > vocalize > > > > the > > > > > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > > > > > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed > > to > > > > > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > > > > > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with > > screen-access > > > > > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online > > > > law > > > > > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, > > lack > > > > these > > > > > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to > > > the > > > > > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > > > > > > > > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on > > > the > > > > > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly > > > > "tagged." > > > > > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions > > > and > > > > > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. > > As > > > > a > > > > > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a > > blind > > > > > visitor to navigate. > > > > > > > > > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, > > > > available > > > > > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to > > the > > > > > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more > > than > > > > 40 > > > > > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer > > > the > > > > > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats > > accessible > > > to > > > > > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > > > > > > > > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > > > > > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary > > > > hurdles > > > > > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school > > compared > > > > to > > > > > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > > > > > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > > > > > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to > > select > > > > and > > > > > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content > > of > > > > the > > > > > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of > > the > > > > > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered > > versions > > > > of > > > > > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. > > > > Lsac.org > > > > > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal > > access > > > > to > > > > > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, > > and > > > > > facilities of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the > > > > Blind > > > > > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. > > > > LSAC > > > > > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > > > > > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue > > legal > > > > > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > > > > > > > > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > > > > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons > > Act) > > > > > > > > > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > > > > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals > > > with > > > > > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the > > > general > > > > > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other > > > places > > > > to > > > > > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions > > and > > > > > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > > > > > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > > > > > > > > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, > > > > is > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general > > > > public > > > > > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > > > > > > > > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > > > > > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal > > > > access > > > > > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > > > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief > > requiring > > > > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to > > make > > > > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons > > available > > > > to > > > > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > > > > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > > > > > > > > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > > > > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > > > > > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, > > > facilities, > > > > > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > > > > > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > > > > > > > > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > > > > > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > > > > > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > > > > > > > > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > > > > > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and > > > > equal > > > > > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of > > LSAC > > > > and > > > > > lsac.org. > > > > > > > > > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > > > > > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the > > > > rights > > > > > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or > > > > obvious > > > > > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > > > > > > > > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > > > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief > > requiring > > > > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to > > make > > > > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons > > available > > > > to > > > > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > > > > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > > > > > > > > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > > > > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > > > > > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > > > > > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > > > > > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and > > website > > > > > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California > > Civil > > > > > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > > > > > > > > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this > > > > time > > > > > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights > > and > > > > > duties and act accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > > > > > > > > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > > > > > > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > > > > > > > > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > > > > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > > > > > > > > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining > > > > and/or > > > > > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind > > and > > > > > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as > > required > > > > by > > > > > law; > > > > > > > > > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs > > > as > > > > > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., > > > California > > > > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > > > > > Procedure § 1021.5. > > > > > > > > > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems > > > > just > > > > > and proper. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DATED: > > > > > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By: > > > > > ____________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > > > > > > > > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > > > > > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > > > > > Denver, Colorado 80222 > > > > > 303 504-5979 (voice) > > > > > 303 757-3640 (fax) > > > > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > > > > > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > > > > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > > > > > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you > > may > > > > not > > > > > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this > > > > message > > > > > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > > > > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. > > > > This > > > > > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > > > > > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > > > et > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > > et > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. > > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Sat Feb 28 00:40:59 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:40:59 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Homework Accessibility? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lucy: As a general rule, all recipients of federal financial assistance, like school districts, are required by Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act and Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act to make their programs and activities accessible. The complexity comes in applying the general rule to specific cases. I suggest that you call the U.S. Department of Education Office for civil Rights assigned to your state, which can be found by going to its website at www.ed.gov/ocr. You can discuss your specific circumstances with that office. Noel Nightingale -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Alex Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 5:51 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] Homework Accessibility? I posed these concerns and questions on the Blind Parents' list but thought I would post here as well for additional advice. I am a blind, single mother of an autistic, four-year-old boy currently attending a special education pre-school program at an elementary school. He will enter Kindergarten in the fall. Because the school for which we are zoned does not have a pre-school program, he is currently attending out of zone. I am trying to move into that school zone, but with the housing market being what it is, I am not sure that the move will take place before the beginning of the 2009/2010 school year. the pre-school teacher provides e-mailed notes regarding my son's progress when I ask for them and sends exercises for homework when appropriate. the speech therapist is willing to work with me to make homework accessible; however, we are having some difficulty with coming up with a way to label pictures. There is no Vision rehabilitation Teacher at this school and may not be one in the school system (no one seems to know). My concern is that I will be the one responsible for assisting my son in completing homework assignments. although he is verbal to a degree, he is not able to tell me with any accuracy the events of his day or relate a story. He is reading some but not enough to read a homework assignment. My questions are: Is the school system obligated to make homework assignments accessible for me? If so, under what law? (the pre-school teacher has been thinking of putting my son under 504 to ensure that progress reports, IEP's, and homework will be provided to me in an accessible format. Is this the best option? If not, what is? what type of language needs to be in the IEP to ensure accessibility for me as the primary care giver? This really needs to be tight because the school for which we are zoned is not known as having a great special ed program. The IEP will be written in March. thank you for any advice and reccomendations. Lucy _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sat Feb 28 01:57:17 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:57:17 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> References: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> <20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20090228015717.GC17300@yumi.bluecherry.net> Mark, Acquiring a second disability which substantially reduces your employability (I can only imagine, but it seems that deaf-blindness has got to be the most frustrating combination of disabilities out there) is precisely the intent of the forgiveness of loans on the basis of a disabling condition that provides a significant barrier to employment. I see no moral objection to you applying for loan forgiveness, given your circumstances. In terms of the massive bailouts asked for and given in the past twelve months, for you to seek loan forgiveness at this time seems like the first one I've come across that I consider to be necessary as a matter of real (not fluffy) social justice. Joseph On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 07:37:53AM -0800, Mark BurningHawk wrote: > Okay, since I started this somehow, I want to clarify two points: > First point: I do\ not wish to use blindness as a reason for not > working, since I was blind when I went to college. In light of my > progressive and now severe hearing loss, however, and the compounded > difficulties in obtaining that employment, I wish to be either left > alone, or put on a drastically reduced pay schedule, until and unless I > acquire a job that allows me, as was the original intent, to pay the > loans back without unduly stressing myself financially or domestically. > Second point, call it B: I do not wish or wish to seem to espouse the > moral stance that blind people, myself or anyone else, should be given a > get out of debt free card. As stated above, if an arrangement whereby I > could pay $20 per month were reached, I should be most timely with these > payments, as they do not unduly stress me, until such time as I have > acquired that dream job in the adaptive tech field in which my true > genius can shine, and in which I am *PAID* congruent with my genius... > Or until I win the lottery, sell a body organ, compose, arrange and > produce that one-hit wonder song, ... I trust this is clear. > Point Number Gamma: There is *NO!* point letter three! > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From bspiry at comcast.net Sat Feb 28 02:07:21 2009 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:07:21 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000801c99949$4a586860$df093920$@net> Excellent, thanks. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Angie Matney Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 7:17 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit There are books with actual LSAT's on Bookshare. HTH, Angie Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit From: "Bill Spiry" Date: 02/27/2009 1:58 AM Were you able to find some practice tests that were readable using a screen reader like JAWS? The practice test on the LSAC site are crummy for accessibility. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:29 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > From: bspiry at comcast.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare for > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > appreciated. > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > additional time? > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > Bill Spiry > 541-510-2623 > Springfield Oregon > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in the > time they are allow. > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I finished > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot mail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore _022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From bspiry at comcast.net Sat Feb 28 02:10:03 2009 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:10:03 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902271154p7e9b0c63uab8a502fb4d51ab3@mail.gmail.com> References: <8c58e54a0902271154p7e9b0c63uab8a502fb4d51ab3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901c99949$ab614230$0223c690$@net> Thanks, good advice. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Fry Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:55 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit My advice, Bill, is to ask for at least double time to take the test, my experience was that I needed every minute of it. In addition, take the Kaplan Review course for the LSAT. It improved my score by at least 10 points. Plus Kaplan will accomodate your disability and give you experience using the accomdations while taking the practice tests. You only want to take the LSAT once because it's a pain in the ass and if you take the test multiple times LSAC will average the scores together. Mike Feb 27, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Angie Matney wrote: > There are books with actual LSAT's on Bookshare. > > HTH, > > Angie > > Sent from my Nokia N82. > > -original message- > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > From: "Bill Spiry" > Date: 02/27/2009 1:58 AM > > Were you able to find some practice tests that were readable using a screen > reader like JAWS? The practice test on the LSAC site are crummy for > accessibility. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:29 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest > bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I > could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > > > From: bspiry at comcast.net > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare > for > > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > > appreciated. > > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > > additional time? > > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > > Bill Spiry > > 541-510-2623 > > Springfield Oregon > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in > the > > time they are allow. > > > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra > time. > > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea > if > > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I > finished > > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > > > > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > > _022009 > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > et > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot > mail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail. com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sat Feb 28 02:18:06 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:18:06 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course toreviewcasein light of ADAAA In-Reply-To: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B26D5D8@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> References: <61D5D43034C2477CB96DBB287F9647EB@spike> <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B26D5D8@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: <20090228021806.GD17300@yumi.bluecherry.net> Jim, While I agree with you that we should not be asking for extra time in the workplace or things such as that, the university setting poses some unique challenges that warrant additional accommodations that we would not utilize in our careers. Namely: 1. Use of aids and adaptive techniques. In the workplace, we can and will use what our employer provides, and whatever else we can attain for ourselves. In the university setting, you will use only what the university deems is appropriate. Even when they determine that a desired accommodation is appropriate (reader, for example), they will generally not allow you to use a reader you have trained and work well with in the name of academic integrity. 2. Policy considerations. When I began at Western Oregon University in 2007, I was told that the university faculty were prohibited from providing disability accommodations of any sort to students. Union contracts state that this Bargaining Unit work was the responsibility of the appropriate employees and may not be performed by anyone else. Textbook publishers, in addition, will send electronic textbooks to a DSO, but not to a student, regardless of the student's disability and willingness to demonstrate it. Such policies generally do not exist in the workplace, and any effort you can take to reduce or eliminate the effects of your disability without your employer's involvement is almost universally regarded as a positive trait. 3. Deadlines and time limits. While these exist in the real world, they're far more arbitrary in academia. Life doesn't usually present multiple choice questions, and you aren't asked to choose the best one based on the text. Instead, you must determine the best answer you can based on what you know, and apply it. 4. Basically good work versus point thresholds. Academia is full of cases where you must make a certain point cutoff to satisfy some requirement (such as a particular letter grade), and there is a significant consequence to a B+ versus an A-, even if that consequence is caused by a point representing 0.2% of the grade. In the workplace, you're generally doing what you should be doing, or you aren't. Even performance evaluations are geared toward that question. I think I would accept extra time on the LSAT since I won't know until I show up to take it what sort of hoops I'll have to jump through at the last second to actually be able to take the thing since in the so-called real world, even if my deadline is tomorrow at 9am, I still can take my work home and do whatever I have to do tonight to get it done. That's not an option with high stakes testing. Joseph On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 08:40:43AM -0500, McCarthy, Jim wrote: >We are spending a lot of time deciding if we would or wouldn't have this person perform medical services on us. Though that may be an interesting discussion regarding how comfortable we with blindness are with people having our disability or other disabilities performing complicated procedures, that is not really the importance of the case. As to Chuck's question, I think the person had a learning disability that he asserted caused him to process read material slower than others and required extra time as a result. The original decision, I think, was that he did not have a disability under the ADA so there was no requirement to consider his request. The decision of the 6th circuit was that because of the ADA amendments, it is clear that he has a disability. Now the question is whether or not he should be accommodated in the manner he wants. He has not won yet and he might not. The arguments going forward will be many of those we are having here. Maybe someone who is slow at reading or processing is steady as can be under surgical conditions or other high stress conditions of the practice of medicine and maybe too the person is competent to complete the school education and will do a type of practice not so high stress performance. Perhaps the test advocates can argue successfully that performance of the test under those time limits really is a critical factor. > >Many of us on this list never had to take the LSAT at all. Others of us who took it did so with accommodations like extra time. Perhaps still others had no time accommodations at all. Those who are practicing an those who went to law school know that reading is a big part of what you do in school and in practice. Many got extra time or did not have to take the test at all, and yet I think most of us believe that it would not be correct practice despite some cases to the contrary to seek extra time from judges because of blindness and whatever challenges we think that might cause. There is an obligation to represent your clients completely regardless. I guess my point is that the career expectations should be the same for people with or without disabilities. This guy may or may not get the chance to take the test the way he thinks he needs and I guess we will see. >Jim McCarthy From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 28 02:25:27 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:25:27 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <20090228015717.GC17300@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net><317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg><20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net><155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> <20090228015717.GC17300@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Fact. Law Office of J. William Weisberg 980 9th Street - 16th Floor Sacramento, California 95814 V: 916.425.1010 F: 916.374.7667 This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 5:57 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments Mark, Acquiring a second disability which substantially reduces your employability (I can only imagine, but it seems that deaf-blindness has got to be the most frustrating combination of disabilities out there) is precisely the intent of the forgiveness of loans on the basis of a disabling condition that provides a significant barrier to employment. I see no moral objection to you applying for loan forgiveness, given your circumstances. In terms of the massive bailouts asked for and given in the past twelve months, for you to seek loan forgiveness at this time seems like the first one I've come across that I consider to be necessary as a matter of real (not fluffy) social justice. Joseph On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 07:37:53AM -0800, Mark BurningHawk wrote: > Okay, since I started this somehow, I want to clarify two points: > First point: I do\ not wish to use blindness as a reason for not > working, since I was blind when I went to college. In light of my > progressive and now severe hearing loss, however, and the compounded > difficulties in obtaining that employment, I wish to be either left > alone, or put on a drastically reduced pay schedule, until and unless I > acquire a job that allows me, as was the original intent, to pay the > loans back without unduly stressing myself financially or domestically. > Second point, call it B: I do not wish or wish to seem to espouse the > moral stance that blind people, myself or anyone else, should be given a > get out of debt free card. As stated above, if an arrangement whereby I > could pay $20 per month were reached, I should be most timely with these > payments, as they do not unduly stress me, until such time as I have > acquired that dream job in the adaptive tech field in which my true > genius can shine, and in which I am *PAID* congruent with my genius... > Or until I win the lottery, sell a body organ, compose, arrange and > produce that one-hit wonder song, ... I trust this is clear. > Point Number Gamma: There is *NO!* point letter three! > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 0sbcglobal.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 28 13:11:27 2009 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 05:11:27 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com><754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike><630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> <41CB34ECE4FF4361B1E51BD48A553E59@StevePC> Message-ID: <007001c999a6$10cbc3a0$6401a8c0@server> Steve, Your position seems very aggressive. I am curious about your background. Are you a lawyer or law student? If not, what sort of work do you do? This information will help me understand what is underlying your response. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > "Good, if you don't pay back federal or state loans, they should be > garnished. Just because your blind, does not mean you should not have to > pay back loans to any entity! As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments > should be eligible for garnishment. > > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:08 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > >> Social Security disability payments can be garnished whereas SSI payments >> cannot. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mark BurningHawk" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:12 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination >> >> >>> Corollary: Can a government student loan garnish my SSDI? If that >>> happens, there goes the neighborhood--anyone wanna buy a kidney? :) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 > 06:40:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Feb 2 20:52:53 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 14:52:53 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, Inc. Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Robin Jones Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, Inc. The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great Lakes ADA Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a settlement agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with disabilities at Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation that was initiated after the Department received several complaints alleging that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its rules, policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities in violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged that persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or were denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. Service animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to work or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the public, including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and Neighborhood Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for customers with disabilities, including: * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of Title III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, lifting, and carrying items; * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated challenges by Wal-Mart employees; * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title III of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website and in employee areas at its stores; * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into a fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's refusal to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal access to persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages from the fund and the amount of damages to be received. In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to increase public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities who use service animals. The nature and scope of the public service announcement campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department of Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement From craig.borne at dot.gov Mon Feb 2 21:08:03 2009 From: craig.borne at dot.gov (craig.borne at dot.gov) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 16:08:03 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject) Message-ID: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E25322E@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> Hello all, There may be an opportunity for the following opening at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) located in Washington, DC. This unit is committed to Schedule A Hiring (a hiring authority within the Federal Government that is based on proof of disability and is non-competitive). Please send me your resume ASAP. Other than the below, I have no further information regarding this anticipated opening. Craig "Incumbent is responsible for the collection, analysis and monitoring of data and information systems in the Office of the Chief Information Officer. This includes Exhibit 300/53 Business Case development; writing and executing enterprise architecture data calls, performing OMB A-11 Operational Analysis, Alternatives Analysis reports and feasibility studies; cost/benefit analysis and Earned Value Management (EVM) calculations; performing system security policy, procedure, implementation, testing and integration development; end user project support; security monitoring of management, operational and technical security controls; serving as a liaison to customers and performing due diligence risk assessments in support of Certification and Accreditation efforts." "There is a heavy emphasis on Capital Planning & Investment control (CPIC), as well as budget planning activities that optimize NHTSA's ability to maximize return on its IT Investment Portfolio using eCPIC and/or WorkLenz tools." Craig Borne, Esq. Equal Opportunity Specialist Disability Program Manager National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Office of Civil Rights 1200 New Jersey Avenue, Southeast Suite W43-321 Washington, DC 20590 Office : (202) 493-0627 Fax: (202) 493-2990 Email: craig.borne at dot.gov The information contained in this communication (including any attachments) may be confidential and legally privileged. This email may not serve as a contractual agreement unless explicit written agreement for this purpose has been made. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of its contents is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender indicating that it was received in error and delete the original message and any copy of it from your computer system. From craig.borne at dot.gov Mon Feb 2 21:10:38 2009 From: craig.borne at dot.gov (craig.borne at dot.gov) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 16:10:38 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Possible Opening in Information Technology (IT) at NHTSA In-Reply-To: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E221401@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> References: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E221401@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> Message-ID: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E25322F@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov> Please distribute widely Hello all, There may be an opportunity for the following opening at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) located in Washington, DC. This unit is committed to Schedule A Hiring (a hiring authority within the Federal Government that is based on proof of disability and is non-competitive). Please send me your resume ASAP. Other than the below, I have no further information regarding this anticipated opening. Craig "Incumbent is responsible for the collection, analysis and monitoring of data and information systems in the Office of the Chief Information Officer. This includes Exhibit 300/53 Business Case development; writing and executing enterprise architecture data calls, performing OMB A-11 Operational Analysis, Alternatives Analysis reports and feasibility studies; cost/benefit analysis and Earned Value Management (EVM) calculations; performing system security policy, procedure, implementation, testing and integration development; end user project support; security monitoring of management, operational and technical security controls; serving as a liaison to customers and performing due diligence risk assessments in support of Certification and Accreditation efforts." "There is a heavy emphasis on Capital Planning & Investment control (CPIC), as well as budget planning activities that optimize NHTSA's ability to maximize return on its IT Investment Portfolio using eCPIC and/or WorkLenz tools." Craig Borne, Esq. Equal Opportunity Specialist Disability Program Manager National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Office of Civil Rights 1200 New Jersey Avenue, Southeast Suite W43-321 Washington, DC 20590 Office : (202) 493-0627 Fax: (202) 493-2990 Email: craig.borne at dot.gov The information contained in this communication (including any attachments) may be confidential and legally privileged. This email may not serve as a contractual agreement unless explicit written agreement for this purpose has been made. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of its contents is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender indicating that it was received in error and delete the original message and any copy of it from your computer system. From mikefry79 at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 23:31:16 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 15:31:16 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, Inc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902021531v6871cfcfn7f0bf01260a497ca@mail.gmail.com> woowho! On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Nightingale, Noel wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On > Behalf Of Robin Jones > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, > Inc. > > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great Lakes ADA > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: > > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and Wal-Mart > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act > > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a settlement > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans with > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with disabilities at > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation that > was initiated after the Department received several complaints alleging > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its rules, > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities in > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged that > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or were > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. Service > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to work > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. > > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the public, > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and Neighborhood > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for > customers with disabilities, including: > > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of Title > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, > lifting, and carrying items; > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title III > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website > and in employee areas at its stores; > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. > > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into a > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's refusal > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal access to > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages from the > fund and the amount of damages to be received. > > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to increase > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities who use > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service announcement > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. > > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department of > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From mar.cra at comcast.net Tue Feb 3 03:06:56 2009 From: mar.cra at comcast.net (Craig%20R.%20Anderson) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 03:06:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, Inc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <714482247.2669221233630416725.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this settlement Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for the next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With the federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal year, and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended its scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? Craig ----- Noel Nightingale wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On > Behalf Of Robin Jones > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, > Inc. > > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great Lakes ADA > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: > > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and Wal-Mart > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act > > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a settlement > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans with > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with disabilities at > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation that > was initiated after the Department received several complaints alleging > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its rules, > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities in > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged that > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or were > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. Service > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to work > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. > > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the public, > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and Neighborhood > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for > customers with disabilities, including: > > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of Title > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, > lifting, and carrying items; > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title III > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website > and in employee areas at its stores; > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. > > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into a > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's refusal > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal access to > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages from the > fund and the amount of damages to be received. > > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to increase > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities who use > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service announcement > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. > > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department of > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 04:26:54 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:26:54 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation Message-ID: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> Hi all, We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my intervention. I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be a good starting place. *grin* While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process used here in Oregon anyway: 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to the DSO. 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the book. 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such as ABBYY FineReader. 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in theory. 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a "natural" voice into mp3 files. 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week quarter. The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books are not available any sooner than that. The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours produces significantly better output in that time frame than her predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I am aware of in my state. One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or won't provide the textbook in question. And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a student who needs it has registered for the class and purchased a book and not always even then. This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, correct, digital source. With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Joseph From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 3 05:28:50 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:28:50 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <8658CD6020E646829527F77AE9DB41D1@spike> While it sounds like there are problems, some times when the student is given the option to solve these problems, such as doing their own scanning, sending books to be recorded or transcribed, purchasing the books on their own etc. may solve the problem. While their definitely needs to be options for students to obtain books early as a student on a campus I would not want to be bound by a uniform policy set forth by a disabled student office or any other body to determine what works for me. I have attained two advanced degrees and for one I did most of my own scanning when it was not convenient to have books already recorded. My bachelor's and master's degrees were attained at a time scanning books was not a reality and not only did I have to the necessary studying, I had to schedule live readers make sure that appropriate forms were turned in so they would be paid as well as to recruit and hire readers that I found acceptable. Granted this was lots of work It provided me the opportunity to learn many valuable skills that have lasted through many years of employee supervision and management. Students choosing to develop and utilize such skills gives necessary preparation for the real world that some times is taken away by having all of these administrative services provided. I have seen too many cases where blind and other disabled students finish college or graduate school and because of everything being done for them are not prepared for the real world where if successfully employed they are on their own. I realize that this may be somewhat of an unpopular position but I believe that this is a serious issue that merits discussion although perhaps off topic for this list. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Cc: Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > Hi all, > > We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon and I > suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible textbooks > here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I should talk > to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example of textbook > legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national problem. Some > universities solve it well enough, but the closest to that at an Oregon > university is the direct result of my intervention. > > I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is > there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told > California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that cannot be > obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be a good > starting place. *grin* > > While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are aware > of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process used here in > Oregon anyway: > > 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). Books > cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to the DSO. > 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. > 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the book. > 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. > 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. > 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such as > ABBYY FineReader. > 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. > 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in > theory. > 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a "natural" > voice into mp3 files. > 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled textbooks > and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week quarter. > > The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books are > not available any sooner than that. > > The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions of > badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling > interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages > missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that my > DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized textbook > once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours produces > significantly better output in that time frame than her predecessor, but > it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. > > The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per book. > The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, and this > is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I am aware of > in my state. > > One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but the > better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students because as > bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a month for the > publishers to finally respond that they don't have or won't provide the > textbook in question. > > And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible for > scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not often > have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required for > graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not provide > electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a student who needs > it has registered for the class and purchased a book and not always even > then. > > This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing electronic > copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that the electronic > books are available to the DSO immediately to begin doing whatever they > need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, correct, digital source. > > With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it > stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Joseph > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 07:02:29 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 23:02:29 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <8658CD6020E646829527F77AE9DB41D1@spike> References: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> <8658CD6020E646829527F77AE9DB41D1@spike> Message-ID: <20090203070229.GC23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> Chuck, I'm not looking to debate the responsibility of blind people to find a solution no matter what. I will find whatever solution I have to. I am very resourceful, but that's not the issue here. Other states have legislation to require publishers to provide electronic books, and California at least is supposed to require that higher education institutions use ONLY books for which the electronic version is available. This is the correct approach. This needs to national law, just as we have IDEA now for K-12. We have not managed to convince lawmakers at the national level, however, and the only thing that we can do is work at the state level. Now's the time in Oregon. Joseph On Mon, Feb 02, 2009 at 09:28:50PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > While it sounds like there are problems, some times when the student is > given the option to solve these problems, such as doing their own > scanning, sending books to be recorded or transcribed, purchasing the > books on their own etc. may solve the problem. While their definitely > needs to be options for students to obtain books early as a student on a > campus I would not want to be bound by a uniform policy set forth by a > disabled student office or any other body to determine what works for me. > I have attained two advanced degrees and for one I did most of my own > scanning when it was not convenient to have books already recorded. My > bachelor's and master's degrees were attained at a time scanning books > was not a reality and not only did I have to the necessary studying, I > had to schedule live readers make sure that appropriate forms were turned > in so they would be paid as well as to recruit and hire readers that I > found acceptable. Granted this was lots of work It provided me the > opportunity to learn many valuable skills that have lasted through many > years of employee supervision and management. Students choosing to > develop and utilize such skills gives necessary preparation for the real > world that some times is taken away by having all of these administrative > services provided. I have seen too many cases where blind and other > disabled students finish college or graduate school and because of > everything being done for them are not prepared for the real world where > if successfully employed they are on their own. I realize that this may > be somewhat of an unpopular position but I believe that this is a serious > issue that merits discussion although perhaps off topic for this list. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Cc: > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:26 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > >> Hi all, >> >> We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon >> and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible >> textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I >> should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example >> of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national >> problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the closest to >> that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my intervention. >> >> I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is >> there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >> California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that cannot >> be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be a good >> starting place. *grin* >> >> While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are >> aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process >> used here in Oregon anyway: >> >> 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). Books >> cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to the >> DSO. >> 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >> 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the book. >> 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >> 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. >> 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such >> as ABBYY FineReader. >> 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >> 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in >> theory. >> 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >> "natural" voice into mp3 files. >> 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled textbooks >> and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week quarter. >> >> The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books are >> not available any sooner than that. >> >> The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions >> of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling >> interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages >> missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that >> my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >> textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours >> produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >> predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. >> >> The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per >> book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, >> and this is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I >> am aware of in my state. >> >> One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but the >> better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students because >> as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a month for >> the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or won't provide >> the textbook in question. >> >> And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible >> for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not >> often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required >> for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not >> provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a >> student who needs it has registered for the class and purchased a book >> and not always even then. >> >> This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >> electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that >> the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin >> doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, >> correct, digital source. >> >> With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it >> stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Joseph >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Tue Feb 3 15:53:25 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 07:53:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <8658CD6020E646829527F77AE9DB41D1@spike> References: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> <8658CD6020E646829527F77AE9DB41D1@spike> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B148@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> As another old-timer, I fully agree with Chuck. Yes, it is nice when ready-made accessible text is handed to you, but knowing how to handle this by yourself is a very good lesson. Especially for those intending to engage in the practice of law, being totally self-reliant, or at least being prepared to be so at the drop of a hat, is in my opinion part of your on-going professional responsibilities to your client and the courts. Sincerely, Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 9:29 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation While it sounds like there are problems, some times when the student is given the option to solve these problems, such as doing their own scanning, sending books to be recorded or transcribed, purchasing the books on their own etc. may solve the problem. While their definitely needs to be options for students to obtain books early as a student on a campus I would not want to be bound by a uniform policy set forth by a disabled student office or any other body to determine what works for me. I have attained two advanced degrees and for one I did most of my own scanning when it was not convenient to have books already recorded. My bachelor's and master's degrees were attained at a time scanning books was not a reality and not only did I have to the necessary studying, I had to schedule live readers make sure that appropriate forms were turned in so they would be paid as well as to recruit and hire readers that I found acceptable. Granted this was lots of work It provided me the opportunity to learn many valuable skills that have lasted through many years of employee supervision and management. Students choosing to develop and utilize such skills gives necessary preparation for the real world that some times is taken away by having all of these administrative services provided. I have seen too many cases where blind and other disabled students finish college or graduate school and because of everything being done for them are not prepared for the real world where if successfully employed they are on their own. I realize that this may be somewhat of an unpopular position but I believe that this is a serious issue that merits discussion although perhaps off topic for this list. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Cc: Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > Hi all, > > We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon > and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible > textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I > should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example > of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national > problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the closest to > that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my intervention. > > I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is > there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told > California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that > cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be > a good starting place. *grin* > > While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are > aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process > used here in Oregon anyway: > > 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). > Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to the DSO. > 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. > 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the book. > 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. > 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. > 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such > as ABBYY FineReader. > 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. > 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in > theory. > 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a "natural" > voice into mp3 files. > 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled > textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week quarter. > > The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books > are not available any sooner than that. > > The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions > of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling > interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages > missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that > my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized > textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours > produces significantly better output in that time frame than her > predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. > > The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per book. > The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, and > this is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I am > aware of in my state. > > One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but > the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students > because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a > month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or > won't provide the textbook in question. > > And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible > for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not > often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required > for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not > provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a > student who needs it has registered for the class and purchased a book > and not always even then. > > This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing > electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that > the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin > doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, correct, digital source. > > With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it > stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Joseph > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s > bcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov From rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 16:21:17 2009 From: rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 08:21:17 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <647B1F5925EB460983BDC6AA0C5807ED@RJT> You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that the site may not have been updated for a while. www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation Hi all, We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my intervention. I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be a good starting place. *grin* While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process used here in Oregon anyway: 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to the DSO. 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the book. 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such as ABBYY FineReader. 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in theory. 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a "natural" voice into mp3 files. 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week quarter. The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books are not available any sooner than that. The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours produces significantly better output in that time frame than her predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I am aware of in my state. One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or won't provide the textbook in question. And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a student who needs it has registered for the class and purchased a book and not always even then. This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, correct, digital source. With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Joseph _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo .com From rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 16:25:27 2009 From: rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 08:25:27 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Those affected by these issues might want to contact the United States Department of Education, Office of Civil Rights. Purely anecdotal information suggest that the San Francisco office is very helpful on these issues, while other offices are in various phases of coming to grips with these concerns. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation Hi all, We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my intervention. I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be a good starting place. *grin* While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process used here in Oregon anyway: 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to the DSO. 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the book. 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such as ABBYY FineReader. 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in theory. 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a "natural" voice into mp3 files. 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week quarter. The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books are not available any sooner than that. The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours produces significantly better output in that time frame than her predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I am aware of in my state. One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or won't provide the textbook in question. And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a student who needs it has registered for the class and purchased a book and not always even then. This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, correct, digital source. With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Joseph _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo .com From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Tue Feb 3 18:01:46 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 11:01:46 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] general input please Message-ID: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> Greetings: Last April, the National Association of Blind Lawyers conducted a training session with a WestLaw representative who knew JAWS and assistive technology for the blind/visually impaired. Many of us found the training extremely valuable because we were working in an accessible computer lab and the instructor could give us JAWS specific ways to access the information. Of course, it was also very helpful that we could hear exactly what she was doing. We are contemplating similar and expanded efforts in the future. These efforts would not only include additional training on technology based aids like Westlaw or Lexis but also how to manage litigation using alternative techniques and assistive technology. We could also offer some training for non-litigators who are involved in more regulatory or transactional work. One way to think of this is a series of training academies for blind/visually impaired attorneys. Of course, CLE would be an important part of any of this. So, before we plunge forward, I wanted to gage a sense of potential demand for such training. Assuming CLE credit would be offered and participants would be trained how to maximize their efficiency using assistive technology and other techniques, would your organization/employer pay for such training? If you are a solo/small firmer, would you pay for it? It would also make sense to offer this training to law students so that they could gain valuable skills prior to even setting foot in the legal profession. I suspect that voc rehab agencies could be convinced to pay for such blindness specific training. I know that the next question is how much? The truth is we don't know exactly. There could be a wide variety of programs offered differing greatly in scope. If, for example, we offered a NITA like trial training course using assistive technology and teaching effective, nonvisual litigation techniques, the training might be a week and would probably cost something similar to courses like NITA's. One or two day seminars emphasizing legal research would, of course, be much different in scope and cost less. Any way, I am seeking general input and thoughts about potential training programs. Not only am I attempting to gage demand, I am also seeking ideas about the type of training folks would find useful. I thank you in advance for your help. Please feel free to send me a message directly or respond generally to the list. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 19:51:05 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 11:51:05 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B148@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <20090203042654.GA23050@yumi.bluecherry.net> <8658CD6020E646829527F77AE9DB41D1@spike> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B148@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: <20090203195105.GA26546@yumi.bluecherry.net> Once again, it's not the point. The point is that the law requires materials that are "as effective as" those available to sighted students. I honestly cannot believe that the NFB has given up the fight for accessible materials. I also cannot believe that blindlaw cannot do better than suggest that the law is irrelevant and that blind people must learn how to spend hours scanning and proofreading. I also think that I would be reluctant to hire a blind attorney if their billable hours are likely to include time spent scanning every paper document handed to them. It seems more reasonable to me that a blind attorney's time is more valuable being an attorney. There are people who are greatly skilled at managing documents and files. I would suggest that a blind attorney hire one and train that person in the expert handling of OCR software. It is much the same in school. Knowing how to do it is different from spending valuable hours that should be spent elsewhere next to a scanner trying to produce results that will be inferior to a direct digital copy. Finally, I think it is reasonable to suggest that the inadequacies of training in the skills of blindness in this country is no excuse for failure of the university system to provide timely and accessible materials. This problem should be solved by direct instruction in how to use the scanning software when needed, as well as how to teach others to use it, not by letting publishers off the hook. Joseph On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 07:53:25AM -0800, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: >As another old-timer, I fully agree with Chuck. Yes, it is nice when >ready-made accessible text is handed to you, but knowing how to handle >this by yourself is a very good lesson. Especially for those intending >to engage in the practice of law, being totally self-reliant, or at >least being prepared to be so at the drop of a hat, is in my opinion >part of your on-going professional responsibilities to your client and >the courts. > >Sincerely, >Tim Ford > >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net >Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 9:29 PM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > >While it sounds like there are problems, some times when the student is >given the option to solve these problems, such as doing their own >scanning, sending books to be recorded or transcribed, purchasing the >books on their own etc. may solve the problem. While their definitely >needs to be options for students to obtain books early as a student on a >campus I would not want to be bound by a uniform policy set forth by a >disabled student office or any other body to determine what works for >me. I have attained two advanced degrees and for one I did most of my >own scanning when it was not convenient to have books already recorded. >My bachelor's and master's degrees were attained at a time scanning >books was not a reality and not only did I have to the necessary >studying, I had to schedule live readers make sure that appropriate >forms were turned in so they would be paid as well as to recruit and >hire readers that I found acceptable. Granted this was lots of work It >provided me the opportunity to learn many valuable skills that have >lasted through many years of employee supervision and management. >Students choosing to develop and utilize such skills gives necessary >preparation for the real world that some times is taken away by having >all of these administrative services provided. I have seen too many >cases where blind and other disabled students finish college or graduate >school and because of everything being done for them are not prepared >for the real world where if successfully employed they are on their own. >I realize that this may be somewhat of an unpopular position but I >believe that this is a serious issue that merits discussion although >perhaps off topic for this list. >Chuck >----- Original Message ----- >From: "T. Joseph Carter" >To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >Cc: >Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:26 PM >Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > >> Hi all, >> >> We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon >> and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible >> textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who I > >> should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good example >> of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a national >> problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the closest to >> that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my intervention. >> >> I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is >> there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >> California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that >> cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be >> a good starting place. *grin* >> >> While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are >> aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process >> used here in Oregon anyway: >> >> 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). >> Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks to >the DSO. >> 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >> 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the >book. >> 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >> 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. >> 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software such > >> as ABBYY FineReader. >> 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >> 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in >> theory. >> 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >"natural" >> voice into mp3 files. >> 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled >> textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week >quarter. >> >> The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books >> are not available any sooner than that. >> >> The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions >> of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling >> interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages >> missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that >> my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >> textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours >> produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >> predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. >> >> The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per >book. >> The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed books, and >> this is standard policy at five higher educational institutions I am >> aware of in my state. >> >> One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but >> the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students >> because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a >> month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or >> won't provide the textbook in question. >> >> And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible >> for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not >> often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume required > >> for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers will not >> provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only when a >> student who needs it has registered for the class and purchased a book > >> and not always even then. >> >> This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >> electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that >> the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin >> doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, >correct, digital source. >> >> With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure it > >> stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Joseph >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s >> bcglobal.net > > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp >h.ca.gov > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From b75205 at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 20:19:03 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (b75205 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 20:19:03 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <647B1F5925EB460983BDC6AA0C5807ED@RJT> Message-ID: <00221532c8ace2c12a046209613d@google.com> Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. Even trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By the way you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they have to reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people do not know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find out what is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a serious time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state are extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this money. Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there are organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on in Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are free. The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. That's where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit more complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are cutting up books. By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or InDesign. James Pepper On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." wrote: > You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that the site > > > may not have been updated for a while. > > > > > > www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > > > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon > > > and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible > > > textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who > > > I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good > > > example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a > > > national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the > > > closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my > > > intervention. > > > > > > I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is > > > there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told > > > California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that > > > cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be > > > a good starting place. *grin* > > > > > > While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are > > > aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process > > > used here in Oregon anyway: > > > > > > 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). > > > Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks > > > to the DSO. > > > 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. > > > 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the > > > book. > > > 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. > > > 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. > > > 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software > > > such as ABBYY FineReader. > > > 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. > > > 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in > > > theory. > > > 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a > > > "natural" voice into mp3 files. > > > 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled > > > textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week > > > quarter. > > > > > > The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books > > > are not available any sooner than that. > > > > > > The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions > > > of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling > > > interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages > > > missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that > > > my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized > > > textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours > > > produces significantly better output in that time frame than her > > > predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. > > > > > > The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per > > > book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed > > > books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational > > > institutions I am aware of in my state. > > > > > > One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but > > > the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students > > > because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a > > > month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or > > > won't provide the textbook in question. > > > > > > And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible > > > for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not > > > often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume > > > required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers > > > will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only > > > when a student who needs it has registered for the class and > > > purchased a book and not always even then. > > > > > > This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing > > > electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that > > > the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin > > > doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, > > > correct, digital source. > > > > > > With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure > > > it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Joseph > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > .com" target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo > > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > From rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com Tue Feb 3 21:19:23 2009 From: rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:19:23 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] general input please In-Reply-To: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> References: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> Message-ID: <000901c98645$1631d600$6901a8c0@RThomas> Yes; especially if it involves some of the state-of-the-art software for litigation. Respectfully, Russell J. Thomas, Jr. THOMAS & ASSOCIATES Orange County Office 4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101 Newport Beach, California 92660 T: (949) 752-0101 F: (949) 257-4756 M: (949) 466-7238 Beverly Hills Office 9107 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 450 Beverly Hills, California 90210 T: (310) 461-3561 -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:02 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] general input please Greetings: Last April, the National Association of Blind Lawyers conducted a training session with a WestLaw representative who knew JAWS and assistive technology for the blind/visually impaired. Many of us found the training extremely valuable because we were working in an accessible computer lab and the instructor could give us JAWS specific ways to access the information. Of course, it was also very helpful that we could hear exactly what she was doing. We are contemplating similar and expanded efforts in the future. These efforts would not only include additional training on technology based aids like Westlaw or Lexis but also how to manage litigation using alternative techniques and assistive technology. We could also offer some training for non-litigators who are involved in more regulatory or transactional work. One way to think of this is a series of training academies for blind/visually impaired attorneys. Of course, CLE would be an important part of any of this. So, before we plunge forward, I wanted to gage a sense of potential demand for such training. Assuming CLE credit would be offered and participants would be trained how to maximize their efficiency using assistive technology and other techniques, would your organization/employer pay for such training? If you are a solo/small firmer, would you pay for it? It would also make sense to offer this training to law students so that they could gain valuable skills prior to even setting foot in the legal profession. I suspect that voc rehab agencies could be convinced to pay for such blindness specific training. I know that the next question is how much? The truth is we don't know exactly. There could be a wide variety of programs offered differing greatly in scope. If, for example, we offered a NITA like trial training course using assistive technology and teaching effective, nonvisual litigation techniques, the training might be a week and would probably cost something similar to courses like NITA's. One or two day seminars emphasizing legal research would, of course, be much different in scope and cost less. Any way, I am seeking general input and thoughts about potential training programs. Not only am I attempting to gage demand, I am also seeking ideas about the type of training folks would find useful. I thank you in advance for your help. Please feel free to send me a message directly or respond generally to the list. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo .com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 3 22:12:07 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 14:12:07 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] general input please In-Reply-To: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> References: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> Message-ID: <2419CF2F47874122A3493ADF2871B8AE@spike> This sounds like a good idea. As a freelance paralegal that pays for my own training I would like to see some of this training with on line components or with the use of teleconferencing or web conferencing. Transportation and lodging costs can become prohibitive at times. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:01 AM Subject: [blindlaw] general input please Greetings: Last April, the National Association of Blind Lawyers conducted a training session with a WestLaw representative who knew JAWS and assistive technology for the blind/visually impaired. Many of us found the training extremely valuable because we were working in an accessible computer lab and the instructor could give us JAWS specific ways to access the information. Of course, it was also very helpful that we could hear exactly what she was doing. We are contemplating similar and expanded efforts in the future. These efforts would not only include additional training on technology based aids like Westlaw or Lexis but also how to manage litigation using alternative techniques and assistive technology. We could also offer some training for non-litigators who are involved in more regulatory or transactional work. One way to think of this is a series of training academies for blind/visually impaired attorneys. Of course, CLE would be an important part of any of this. So, before we plunge forward, I wanted to gage a sense of potential demand for such training. Assuming CLE credit would be offered and participants would be trained how to maximize their efficiency using assistive technology and other techniques, would your organization/employer pay for such training? If you are a solo/small firmer, would you pay for it? It would also make sense to offer this training to law students so that they could gain valuable skills prior to even setting foot in the legal profession. I suspect that voc rehab agencies could be convinced to pay for such blindness specific training. I know that the next question is how much? The truth is we don't know exactly. There could be a wide variety of programs offered differing greatly in scope. If, for example, we offered a NITA like trial training course using assistive technology and teaching effective, nonvisual litigation techniques, the training might be a week and would probably cost something similar to courses like NITA's. One or two day seminars emphasizing legal research would, of course, be much different in scope and cost less. Any way, I am seeking general input and thoughts about potential training programs. Not only am I attempting to gage demand, I am also seeking ideas about the type of training folks would find useful. I thank you in advance for your help. Please feel free to send me a message directly or respond generally to the list. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From stiehm.law at juno.com Tue Feb 3 22:13:49 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:13:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] general input please Message-ID: <20090203.171349.5028.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> You may want to consider a product called Fastcase in your training. It is a web-based research program that comes as a benefit of membership in many bar associations. For example, here in Virginia we all have access to Fastcase for legal research. It is a web 2.0 service. I'm not sure how well it would integrate with JAWS, but you may want to check with their tech people. If nothing else an inquiry may put pressure on them to make the program JAWS friendly. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 11:01:46 -0700 "Scott C. LaBarre" writes: > Greetings: > > Last April, the National Association of Blind Lawyers conducted a > training session with a WestLaw representative who knew JAWS and > assistive technology for the blind/visually impaired. Many of us > found the training extremely valuable because we were working in an > accessible computer lab and the instructor could give us JAWS > specific ways to access the information. Of course, it was also > very helpful that we could hear exactly what she was doing. > > We are contemplating similar and expanded efforts in the future. > These efforts would not only include additional training on > technology based aids like Westlaw or Lexis but also how to manage > litigation using alternative techniques and assistive technology. > We could also offer some training for non-litigators who are > involved in more regulatory or transactional work. One way to think > of this is a series of training academies for blind/visually > impaired attorneys. Of course, CLE would be an important part of > any of this. > > So, before we plunge forward, I wanted to gage a sense of potential > demand for such training. Assuming CLE credit would be offered and > participants would be trained how to maximize their efficiency using > assistive technology and other techniques, would your > organization/employer pay for such training? If you are a > solo/small firmer, would you pay for it? It would also make sense > to offer this training to law students so that they could gain > valuable skills prior to even setting foot in the legal profession. > I suspect that voc rehab agencies could be convinced to pay for such > blindness specific training. > > I know that the next question is how much? The truth is we don't > know exactly. There could be a wide variety of programs offered > differing greatly in scope. If, for example, we offered a NITA like > trial training course using assistive technology and teaching > effective, nonvisual litigation techniques, the training might be a > week and would probably cost something similar to courses like > NITA's. One or two day seminars emphasizing legal research would, > of course, be much different in scope and cost less. > > Any way, I am seeking general input and thoughts about potential > training programs. Not only am I attempting to gage demand, I am > also seeking ideas about the type of training folks would find > useful. I thank you in advance for your help. Please feel free to > send me a message directly or respond generally to the list. > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you > may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you > received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) > 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from > your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the > Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Click to learn about options trading and get the latest information. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2SBFOhsj0x7InGMd6Xf7k07yfQ0PzHAkOxHLztWfLEghDM7/ From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 3 22:35:39 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 14:35:39 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <00221532c8ace2c12a046209613d@google.com> References: <00221532c8ace2c12a046209613d@google.com> Message-ID: <71DE6358655A4AC2AA059BAB91F9014B@spike> Good points. Bookshare.org has converted thousands of books to daisy format. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Russell J. Thomas; Jr." ; Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the > California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. Even > trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By the way > you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. > > The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they have to > reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people do > not know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find out > what is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a > serious time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state > are extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this > money. > > Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. > > Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there are > organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on in > Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are free. > > The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. That's > where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit more > complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are > cutting up books. > > By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or InDesign. > > James Pepper > > On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." > wrote: >> You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that the > site >> >> >> may not have been updated for a while. >> >> >> >> >> >> www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> >> >> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >> >> >> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM >> >> >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >> >> Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> >> >> We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon >> >> >> and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible >> >> >> textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who >> >> >> I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good >> >> >> example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a >> >> >> national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the >> >> >> closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my >> >> >> intervention. >> >> >> >> >> >> I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is >> >> >> there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >> >> >> California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that >> >> >> cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be >> >> >> a good starting place. *grin* >> >> >> >> >> >> While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are >> >> >> aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process >> >> >> used here in Oregon anyway: >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). >> >> >> Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks >> >> >> to the DSO. >> >> >> 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >> >> >> 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the >> >> >> book. >> >> >> 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >> >> >> 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. >> >> >> 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software >> >> >> such as ABBYY FineReader. >> >> >> 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >> >> >> 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in >> >> >> theory. >> >> >> 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >> >> >> "natural" voice into mp3 files. >> >> >> 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled >> >> >> textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week >> >> >> quarter. >> >> >> >> >> >> The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books >> >> >> are not available any sooner than that. >> >> >> >> >> >> The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions >> >> >> of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling >> >> >> interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages >> >> >> missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that >> >> >> my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >> >> >> textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours >> >> >> produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >> >> >> predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. >> >> >> >> >> >> The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per >> >> >> book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed >> >> >> books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational >> >> >> institutions I am aware of in my state. >> >> >> >> >> >> One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but >> >> >> the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students >> >> >> because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a >> >> >> month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or >> >> >> won't provide the textbook in question. >> >> >> >> >> >> And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible >> >> >> for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not >> >> >> often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume >> >> >> required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers >> >> >> will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only >> >> >> when a student who needs it has registered for the class and >> >> >> purchased a book and not always even then. >> >> >> >> >> >> This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >> >> >> electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that >> >> >> the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin >> >> >> doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, >> >> >> correct, digital source. >> >> >> >> >> >> With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure >> >> >> it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> >> >> Joseph >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> .com" > target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo >> >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From chatter8712 at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 22:43:51 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:43:51 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <71DE6358655A4AC2AA059BAB91F9014B@spike> References: <00221532c8ace2c12a046209613d@google.com> <71DE6358655A4AC2AA059BAB91F9014B@spike> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902031443r77d95199t45f8b466addf8d77@mail.gmail.com> And Bookshare does it on a vollunteer effort. What we need to do is get something like bookshare for textbooks in general. Those with the skills can scan textbooks and the rest of us can use them under the same copyright clauses that make them available to Blind individuals under Bookshare. For your information, this law is 17 U.S.C. § 121, and reads partially as follows: "… it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute copies of a previously published, nondramatic literary work if such copies are reproduced or distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities." More information available at http://bookshare.org/about/legalInformation. On 2/3/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Good points. Bookshare.org has converted thousands of books to daisy format. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Russell J. Thomas; Jr." ; > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:19 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > >> Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the >> California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. Even >> trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By the way >> >> you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. >> >> The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they have to >> reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people do >> not know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find out >> >> what is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a >> serious time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state >> are extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this >> money. >> >> Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. >> >> Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there are >> organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on in >> Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are free. >> >> The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. That's >> >> where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit more >> complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are >> cutting up books. >> >> By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or InDesign. >> >> James Pepper >> >> On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." >> wrote: >>> You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that the >> site >>> >>> >>> may not have been updated for a while. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> >>> >>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>> >>> >>> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM >>> >>> >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> >>> Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon >>> >>> >>> and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible >>> >>> >>> textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who >>> >>> >>> I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good >>> >>> >>> example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a >>> >>> >>> national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the >>> >>> >>> closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my >>> >>> >>> intervention. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is >>> >>> >>> there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >>> >>> >>> California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that >>> >>> >>> cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be >>> >>> >>> a good starting place. *grin* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are >>> >>> >>> aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process >>> >>> >>> used here in Oregon anyway: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). >>> >>> >>> Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks >>> >>> >>> to the DSO. >>> >>> >>> 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >>> >>> >>> 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the >>> >>> >>> book. >>> >>> >>> 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >>> >>> >>> 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. >>> >>> >>> 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software >>> >>> >>> such as ABBYY FineReader. >>> >>> >>> 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >>> >>> >>> 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in >>> >>> >>> theory. >>> >>> >>> 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >>> >>> >>> "natural" voice into mp3 files. >>> >>> >>> 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled >>> >>> >>> textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week >>> >>> >>> quarter. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books >>> >>> >>> are not available any sooner than that. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions >>> >>> >>> of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling >>> >>> >>> interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages >>> >>> >>> missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that >>> >>> >>> my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >>> >>> >>> textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours >>> >>> >>> produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >>> >>> >>> predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per >>> >>> >>> book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed >>> >>> >>> books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational >>> >>> >>> institutions I am aware of in my state. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but >>> >>> >>> the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students >>> >>> >>> because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a >>> >>> >>> month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or >>> >>> >>> won't provide the textbook in question. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible >>> >>> >>> for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not >>> >>> >>> often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume >>> >>> >>> required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers >>> >>> >>> will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only >>> >>> >>> when a student who needs it has registered for the class and >>> >>> >>> purchased a book and not always even then. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >>> >>> >>> electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that >>> >>> >>> the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin >>> >>> >>> doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, >>> >>> >>> correct, digital source. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure >>> >>> >>> it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> >>> >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >>> >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> >>> .com" >> target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo >>> >>> >>> .com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> >>> >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From timandvickie at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 22:46:07 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 22:46:07 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT In-Reply-To: <20090203.171349.5028.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090203.171349.5028.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Hey everyone I am taking the LSAT Saturday, wish me luck. Any last minute advice? The only thing that is still tripping me up some is relationship questions where they provide a list of traits about members of a group then ask you to determine say something like which two people work together. Some of them it just seems like the info provided just isnt enough to arrive at the conclusion they want you to. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail® goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208 From stiehm.law at juno.com Tue Feb 3 22:51:22 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:51:22 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation Message-ID: <20090203.175123.5028.4.stiehm.law@juno.com> When you describe the books as being available in Daisy format, as being required by law, which law do you mean? Is it a California state law or a federal law? Even if it's only a California state law I would expect the impact to be significant and even nationwide. California is so big that anything that it requires usually has a national impact. Could you elaborate please? I was also interested in your comment above a copyright violation simply because the books are cut up. I don't think that is correct. If I buy a book, it is my property and I think I'm free to cut it up if I want. Or in the alternative are you suggesting that scanning from text to voice using Natural Reader is a copyright violation? If that is a violation aren't we further violating the copyright every time Jaws reads copyrighted material on a web page? Although though it is a more sophisticated program than Natural Reader, in its screen reading function it is really doing essentially the same thing? I wonder if there's any authority on the issue one way or the other. If anybody on the list is sufficiently familiar with copyright law that they are comfortable expressing an opinion I would love to hear. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 20:19:03 +0000 b75205 at gmail.com writes: > Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the > > California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. > Even > trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By > the way > you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. > > The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they > have to > reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people > do not > know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find > out what > is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a > serious > time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state are > > extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this > money. > > Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. > > Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there > are > organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on > in > Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are > free. > > The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. > That's > where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit > more > complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are > > cutting up books. > > By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or > InDesign. > > James Pepper > > On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." > > wrote: > > You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that > the > site > > > > > > may not have been updated for a while. > > > > > > > > > > > > www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > > > > > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM > > > > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > > > > Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in > Oregon > > > > > > and I suggested to my state president that the problem of > accessible > > > > > > textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows > who > > > > > > I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good > > > > > > example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, > a > > > > > > national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the > > > > > > closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of > my > > > > > > intervention. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. > Is > > > > > > there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told > > > > > > California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that > > > > > > cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might > be > > > > > > a good starting place. *grin* > > > > > > > > > > > > While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) > are > > > > > > aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard > process > > > > > > used here in Oregon anyway: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). > > > > > > Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several > blocks > > > > > > to the DSO. > > > > > > 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. > > > > > > 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up > the > > > > > > book. > > > > > > 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. > > > > > > 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 > dpi. > > > > > > 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software > > > > > > such as ABBYY FineReader. > > > > > > 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. > > > > > > 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, > in > > > > > > theory. > > > > > > 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a > > > > > > "natural" voice into mp3 files. > > > > > > 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled > > > > > > textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week > > > > > > quarter. > > > > > > > > > > > > The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because > books > > > > > > are not available any sooner than that. > > > > > > > > > > > > The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read > versions > > > > > > of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything > resembling > > > > > > interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with > pages > > > > > > missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told > that > > > > > > my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized > > > > > > textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four > hours > > > > > > produces significantly better output in that time frame than her > > > > > > predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone > per > > > > > > book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed > > > > > > books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational > > > > > > institutions I am aware of in my state. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, > but > > > > > > the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by > students > > > > > > because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve > waiting a > > > > > > month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have > or > > > > > > won't provide the textbook in question. > > > > > > > > > > > > And while some might argue that a blind student should be > responsible > > > > > > for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does > not > > > > > > often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume > > > > > > required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. > Publishers > > > > > > will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, > only > > > > > > when a student who needs it has registered for the class and > > > > > > purchased a book and not always even then. > > > > > > > > > > > > This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing > > > > > > electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so > that > > > > > > the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to > begin > > > > > > doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a > clean, > > > > > > correct, digital source. > > > > > > > > > > > > With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make > sure > > > > > > it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > Joseph > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > .com" > target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org /rjtlawfirm%40yahoo > > > > > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > blindlaw: > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Click here to learn more about nursing jobs. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2bVNFN864fchPGK0uBuOioSg37yCiv6jmJ2VacXQfSLz1av/ From chatter8712 at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 23:10:18 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 18:10:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <20090203.175123.5028.4.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090203.175123.5028.4.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902031510h43853996m5319039a0fba1f23@mail.gmail.com> See my post above about bookshare. A brief summary of copyright law and it's transformation for blind people is at their legal page, http://bookshare.org/about/legalInformation, but you can create alternative formats of copyrighted nondramatic works for distribution in blindness specific (I.E: Dazy) formats. On 2/3/09, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > When you describe the books as being available in Daisy format, as being > required by law, which law do you mean? Is it a California state law or a > federal law? Even if it's only a California state law I would expect the > impact to be significant and even nationwide. California is so big that > anything that it requires usually has a national impact. Could you > elaborate please? > > I was also interested in your comment above a copyright violation simply > because the books are cut up. I don't think that is correct. If I buy a > book, it is my property and I think I'm free to cut it up if I want. Or > in the alternative are you suggesting that scanning from text to voice > using Natural Reader is a copyright violation? > If that is a violation aren't we further violating the copyright every > time Jaws reads copyrighted material on a web page? Although though it is > a more sophisticated program than Natural Reader, in its screen reading > function it is really doing essentially the same thing? I wonder if > there's any authority on the issue one way or the other. If anybody on > the list is sufficiently familiar with copyright law that they are > comfortable expressing an opinion I would love to hear. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 20:19:03 +0000 b75205 at gmail.com writes: >> Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the >> >> California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. >> Even >> trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By >> the way >> you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. >> >> The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they >> have to >> reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people >> do not >> know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find >> out what >> is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a >> serious >> time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state are >> >> extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this >> money. >> >> Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. >> >> Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there >> are >> organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on >> in >> Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are >> free. >> >> The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. >> That's >> where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit >> more >> complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are >> >> cutting up books. >> >> By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or >> InDesign. >> >> James Pepper >> >> On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." >> >> wrote: >> > You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that >> the >> site >> > >> > >> > may not have been updated for a while. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > >> > >> > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> > >> > >> > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >> > >> > >> > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM >> > >> > >> > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> > >> > >> > Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in >> Oregon >> > >> > >> > and I suggested to my state president that the problem of >> accessible >> > >> > >> > textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows >> who >> > >> > >> > I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good >> > >> > >> > example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, >> a >> > >> > >> > national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the >> > >> > >> > closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of >> my >> > >> > >> > intervention. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. >> Is >> > >> > >> > there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >> > >> > >> > California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that >> > >> > >> > cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might >> be >> > >> > >> > a good starting place. *grin* >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) >> are >> > >> > >> > aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard >> process >> > >> > >> > used here in Oregon anyway: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). >> > >> > >> > Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several >> blocks >> > >> > >> > to the DSO. >> > >> > >> > 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >> > >> > >> > 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up >> the >> > >> > >> > book. >> > >> > >> > 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >> > >> > >> > 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 >> dpi. >> > >> > >> > 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software >> > >> > >> > such as ABBYY FineReader. >> > >> > >> > 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >> > >> > >> > 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, >> in >> > >> > >> > theory. >> > >> > >> > 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >> > >> > >> > "natural" voice into mp3 files. >> > >> > >> > 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled >> > >> > >> > textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week >> > >> > >> > quarter. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because >> books >> > >> > >> > are not available any sooner than that. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read >> versions >> > >> > >> > of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything >> resembling >> > >> > >> > interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with >> pages >> > >> > >> > missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told >> that >> > >> > >> > my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >> > >> > >> > textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four >> hours >> > >> > >> > produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >> > >> > >> > predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at >> it. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone >> per >> > >> > >> > book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed >> > >> > >> > books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational >> > >> > >> > institutions I am aware of in my state. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, >> but >> > >> > >> > the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by >> students >> > >> > >> > because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve >> waiting a >> > >> > >> > month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have >> or >> > >> > >> > won't provide the textbook in question. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > And while some might argue that a blind student should be >> responsible >> > >> > >> > for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does >> not >> > >> > >> > often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume >> > >> > >> > required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. >> Publishers >> > >> > >> > will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, >> only >> > >> > >> > when a student who needs it has registered for the class and >> > >> > >> > purchased a book and not always even then. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >> > >> > >> > electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so >> that >> > >> > >> > the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to >> begin >> > >> > >> > doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a >> clean, >> > >> > >> > correct, digital source. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make >> sure >> > >> > >> > it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Joseph >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > >> > >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> > >> > >> > blindlaw: >> > >> > >> > >> > .com" >> > target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > /rjtlawfirm%40yahoo >> > >> > >> > .com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > >> > >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> blindlaw: >> > >> > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. > com >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com >> >> > > ____________________________________________________________ > Click here to learn more about nursing jobs. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2bVNFN864fchPGK0uBuOioSg37yCiv6jmJ2VacXQfSLz1av/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Tue Feb 3 23:16:08 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 15:16:08 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT In-Reply-To: References: <20090203.171349.5028.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B170@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> My serious recommendation is to get plenty of sleep the night before. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Hey everyone I am taking the LSAT Saturday, wish me luck. Any last minute advice? The only thing that is still tripping me up some is relationship questions where they provide a list of traits about members of a group then ask you to determine say something like which two people work together. Some of them it just seems like the info provided just isnt enough to arrive at the conclusion they want you to. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail(r) goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?oci d=TXT_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov From everett at zufelt.ca Tue Feb 3 23:42:27 2009 From: everett at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:42:27 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902031443r77d95199t45f8b466addf8d77@mail.gmail.com> References: <00221532c8ace2c12a046209613d@google.com> <71DE6358655A4AC2AA059BAB91F9014B@spike> <7556b95a0902031443r77d95199t45f8b466addf8d77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Good evening, I support the concept of requiring textbook publishers to make accessible copies of their texts available to students with disabilities. There really just is no reason that they can't / shouldn't do this. However, practically speaking, in my first year of law school there was only one textbook that was not available from the publisher in a digital format. So, perhaps this is already being done by some publishers more than people are aware. Normally contacting the publisher directly, or through your educational institutions department for disabled students, these texts can be obtained quite quickly. As for forcing a blind student to scan books themself, as a character building exercise, I really don't understand this at all. As a blind student I want the opportunity to be as lazy as my class mates (smile). But seriously, I have spent many the hour scanning texts and could have spent that time in more productive ways, like studying, socializing with peers, participating in extra curricular activities, etc. Everett On 3-Feb-09, at 6:43 PM, chatter8712 at gmail.com wrote: > And Bookshare does it on a vollunteer effort. What we need to do is > get something like bookshare for textbooks in general. Those with the > skills can scan textbooks and the rest of us can use them under the > same copyright clauses that make them available to Blind individuals > under Bookshare. For your information, this law is 17 U.S.C. § 121, > and reads partially as follows: > > "… it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to > reproduce or to distribute copies of a previously published, > nondramatic literary work if such copies are reproduced or distributed > in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons > with disabilities." > > More information available at http://bookshare.org/about/legalInformation > . > > On 2/3/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> Good points. Bookshare.org has converted thousands of books to >> daisy format. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: "Russell J. Thomas; Jr." ; > > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >> >> >>> Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the >>> California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. >>> Even >>> trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By >>> the way >>> >>> you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. >>> >>> The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they >>> have to >>> reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT >>> people do >>> not know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to >>> find out >>> >>> what is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility >>> is a >>> serious time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by >>> the state >>> are extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this >>> money. >>> >>> Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. >>> >>> Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there >>> are >>> organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is >>> on in >>> Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books >>> are free. >>> >>> The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and >>> answers. That's >>> >>> where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a >>> bit more >>> complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are >>> cutting up books. >>> >>> By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or >>> InDesign. >>> >>> James Pepper >>> >>> On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." >> > >>> wrote: >>>> You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears >>>> that the >>> site >>>> >>>> >>>> may not have been updated for a while. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>>> >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> ] On >>>> >>>> >>>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>> >>>> Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in >>>> Oregon >>>> >>>> >>>> and I suggested to my state president that the problem of >>>> accessible >>>> >>>> >>>> textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who >>>> >>>> >>>> I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good >>>> >>>> >>>> example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a >>>> >>>> >>>> national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the >>>> >>>> >>>> closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my >>>> >>>> >>>> intervention. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. >>>> Is >>>> >>>> >>>> there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >>>> >>>> >>>> California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that >>>> >>>> >>>> cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might >>>> be >>>> >>>> >>>> a good starting place. *grin* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are >>>> >>>> >>>> aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process >>>> >>>> >>>> used here in Oregon anyway: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). >>>> >>>> >>>> Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks >>>> >>>> >>>> to the DSO. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >>>> >>>> >>>> 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up >>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>> book. >>>> >>>> >>>> 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >>>> >>>> >>>> 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 >>>> dpi. >>>> >>>> >>>> 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software >>>> >>>> >>>> such as ABBYY FineReader. >>>> >>>> >>>> 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >>>> >>>> >>>> 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, >>>> in >>>> >>>> >>>> theory. >>>> >>>> >>>> 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >>>> >>>> >>>> "natural" voice into mp3 files. >>>> >>>> >>>> 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled >>>> >>>> >>>> textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week >>>> >>>> >>>> quarter. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books >>>> >>>> >>>> are not available any sooner than that. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read >>>> versions >>>> >>>> >>>> of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything >>>> resembling >>>> >>>> >>>> interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages >>>> >>>> >>>> missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told >>>> that >>>> >>>> >>>> my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >>>> >>>> >>>> textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours >>>> >>>> >>>> produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >>>> >>>> >>>> predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at >>>> it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per >>>> >>>> >>>> book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed >>>> >>>> >>>> books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational >>>> >>>> >>>> institutions I am aware of in my state. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but >>>> >>>> >>>> the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students >>>> >>>> >>>> because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve >>>> waiting a >>>> >>>> >>>> month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or >>>> >>>> >>>> won't provide the textbook in question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And while some might argue that a blind student should be >>>> responsible >>>> >>>> >>>> for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does >>>> not >>>> >>>> >>>> often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume >>>> >>>> >>>> required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers >>>> >>>> >>>> will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only >>>> >>>> >>>> when a student who needs it has registered for the class and >>>> >>>> >>>> purchased a book and not always even then. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >>>> >>>> >>>> electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so >>>> that >>>> >>>> >>>> the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin >>>> >>>> >>>> doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a >>>> clean, >>>> >>>> >>>> correct, digital source. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure >>>> >>>> >>>> it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Joseph >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> .com" >>> target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo >>>> >>>> >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zufelt.ca From b75205 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 03:41:42 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (b75205 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 03:41:42 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000325579e82ec50ca04620f90f4@google.com> California law has it that textbooks have to be accessible to the blind and that the publisher must provide this for free. Since they are doing it for california this means the books exist. Also I beleive there is anational law on this subject, the problem is one of enforcement not access. If you take a book and chop it up and make an accessible book without the publishers consent, you are violating their rights. Its just like when a gbroup of authors tried to claim that paperback editions of books were different than har covers in famous Garrard publsihing case in the 1970s. If you chop up a book there is no guarantee that it will be done properly. They have a right to present the material even if it is going to be given away to the blind. The people who are in charge of the book are the ones who have to make it accessible to the blind, it is their work, it is not yours. Since most publishers want to sell textbooks to california, you just need to find out which ones have done this work and which ones have not. james On Feb 3, 2009 5:42pm, "EJ Zufelt" wrote: > Good evening, > > > > > > I support the concept of requiring textbook publishers to make accessible copies of their texts available to students with disabilities. There really just is no reason that they can't / shouldn't do this. > > > > > > However, practically speaking, in my first year of law school there was only one textbook that was not available from the publisher in a digital format. So, perhaps this is already being done by some publishers more than people are aware. Normally contacting the publisher directly, or through your educational institutions department for disabled students, these texts can be obtained quite quickly. > > > > > > As for forcing a blind student to scan books themself, as a character building exercise, I really don't understand this at all. As a blind student I want the opportunity to be as lazy as my class mates (smile). But seriously, I have spent many the hour scanning texts and could have spent that time in more productive ways, like studying, socializing with peers, participating in extra curricular activities, etc. > > > > > > Everett > > > > > > > > > On 3-Feb-09, at 6:43 PM, chatter8712 at gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > > And Bookshare does it on a vollunteer effort. What we need to do is > > > get something like bookshare for textbooks in general. Those with the > > > skills can scan textbooks and the rest of us can use them under the > > > same copyright clauses that make them available to Blind individuals > > > under Bookshare. For your information, this law is 17 USC § 121, > > > and reads partially as follows: > > > > > > "… it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to > > > reproduce or to distribute copies of a previously published, > > > nondramatic literary work if such copies are reproduced or distributed > > > in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons > > > with disabilities." > > > > > > More information available at http://bookshare.org/about/legalInformation. > > > > > > On 2/3/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > Good points. Bookshare.org has converted thousands of books to daisy format. > > > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: b75205 at gmail.com> > > > To: "Russell J. Thomas; Jr." rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com>; blindlaw at nfbnet.org> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:19 PM > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > > > > > > > > > > Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the > > > California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. Even > > > trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By the way > > > > > > you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. > > > > > > The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they have to > > > reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people do > > > not know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find out > > > > > > what is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a > > > serious time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state > > > are extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this > > > money. > > > > > > Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. > > > > > > Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there are > > > organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on in > > > Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are free. > > > > > > The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. That's > > > > > > where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit more > > > complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are > > > cutting up books. > > > > > > By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or InDesign. > > > > > > James Pepper > > > > > > On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that the > > > > > site > > > > > > > > > > > may not have been updated for a while. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > > > > > > > > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM > > > > > > > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > > > > > > > Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon > > > > > > > > > and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible > > > > > > > > > textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who > > > > > > > > > I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good > > > > > > > > > example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a > > > > > > > > > national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the > > > > > > > > > closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my > > > > > > > > > intervention. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is > > > > > > > > > there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told > > > > > > > > > California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that > > > > > > > > > cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be > > > > > > > > > a good starting place. *grin* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are > > > > > > > > > aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process > > > > > > > > > used here in Oregon anyway: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). > > > > > > > > > Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks > > > > > > > > > to the DSO. > > > > > > > > > 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. > > > > > > > > > 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the > > > > > > > > > book. > > > > > > > > > 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. > > > > > > > > > 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. > > > > > > > > > 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software > > > > > > > > > such as ABBYY FineReader. > > > > > > > > > 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. > > > > > > > > > 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in > > > > > > > > > theory. > > > > > > > > > 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a > > > > > > > > > "natural" voice into mp3 files. > > > > > > > > > 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled > > > > > > > > > textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week > > > > > > > > > quarter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books > > > > > > > > > are not available any sooner than that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions > > > > > > > > > of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling > > > > > > > > > interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages > > > > > > > > > missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that > > > > > > > > > my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized > > > > > > > > > textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours > > > > > > > > > produces significantly better output in that time frame than her > > > > > > > > > predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per > > > > > > > > > book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed > > > > > > > > > books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational > > > > > > > > > institutions I am aware of in my state. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but > > > > > > > > > the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students > > > > > > > > > because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a > > > > > > > > > month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or > > > > > > > > > won't provide the textbook in question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible > > > > > > > > > for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not > > > > > > > > > often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume > > > > > > > > > required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers > > > > > > > > > will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only > > > > > > > > > when a student who needs it has registered for the class and > > > > > > > > > purchased a book and not always even then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing > > > > > > > > > electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that > > > > > > > > > the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin > > > > > > > > > doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, > > > > > > > > > correct, digital source. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure > > > > > > > > > it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joseph > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > .com" > > > > > target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo > > > > > > > > > > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info% From b75205 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 03:47:13 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (b75205 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 03:47:13 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, Inc. In-Reply-To: <714482247.2669221233630416725.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com> No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and tell them that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their Target ads that if you are blind we will not shut the door on you or kick you out of the store. That would have done much more than any of this stuff. You need to humiliate the corporate boardroom and make heads roll before you are going to see any real changes out there. James On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" wrote: > Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this settlement Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for the next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With the federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal year, and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended its scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? > > > > > > Craig > > > ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On > > > > Behalf Of Robin Jones > > > > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM > > > > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > > > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, > > > > Inc. > > > > > > > > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great Lakes ADA > > > > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: > > > > > > > > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and Wal-Mart > > > > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act > > > > > > > > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a settlement > > > > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans with > > > > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with disabilities at > > > > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation that > > > > was initiated after the Department received several complaints alleging > > > > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its rules, > > > > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities in > > > > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged that > > > > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or were > > > > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by > > > > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. Service > > > > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to work > > > > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. > > > > > > > > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United > > > > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the public, > > > > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and Neighborhood > > > > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three > > > > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for > > > > customers with disabilities, including: > > > > > > > > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of Title > > > > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals > > > > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as > > > > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, > > > > lifting, and carrying items; > > > > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of > > > > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into > > > > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated > > > > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; > > > > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title III > > > > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with > > > > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; > > > > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since > > > > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under > > > > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; > > > > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website > > > > and in employee areas at its stores; > > > > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will > > > > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a > > > > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate > > > > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the > > > > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. > > > > > > > > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into a > > > > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed > > > > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's refusal > > > > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal access to > > > > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights > > > > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages from the > > > > fund and the amount of damages to be received. > > > > > > > > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an > > > > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights > > > > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to increase > > > > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities who use > > > > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service announcement > > > > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. > > > > > > > > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department of > > > > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 05:28:32 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 21:28:32 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with WalmartStores, Inc. In-Reply-To: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com> References: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com> Message-ID: I like it. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with WalmartStores, Inc. > No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and tell them > that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their Target ads that > if you are blind we will not shut the door on you or kick you out of the > store. That would have done much more than any of this stuff. You need to > humiliate the corporate boardroom and make heads roll before you are going > to see any real changes out there. > > James > > On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" > wrote: >> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this settlement > Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for the > next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With the > federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal year, > and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended its > scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? >> >> >> >> >> >> Craig >> >> >> ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On >> >> >> > Behalf Of Robin Jones >> >> >> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM >> >> >> > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >> >> >> > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, >> >> >> > Inc. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great Lakes > ADA >> >> >> > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and Wal-Mart >> >> >> > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a >> > settlement >> >> >> > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans > with >> >> >> > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with disabilities > at >> >> >> > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation >> > that >> >> >> > was initiated after the Department received several complaints alleging >> >> >> > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its >> > rules, >> >> >> > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities in >> >> >> > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged that >> >> >> > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or were >> >> >> > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by >> >> >> > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. >> > Service >> >> >> > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to >> > work >> >> >> > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United >> >> >> > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the > public, >> >> >> > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and > Neighborhood >> >> >> > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three >> >> >> > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for >> >> >> > customers with disabilities, including: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of Title >> >> >> > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals >> >> >> > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as >> >> >> > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, >> >> >> > lifting, and carrying items; >> >> >> > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of >> >> >> > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into >> >> >> > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated >> >> >> > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; >> >> >> > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title III >> >> >> > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with >> >> >> > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; >> >> >> > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since >> >> >> > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under >> >> >> > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; >> >> >> > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website >> >> >> > and in employee areas at its stores; >> >> >> > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will >> >> >> > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a >> >> >> > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate >> >> >> > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the >> >> >> > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into a >> >> >> > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed >> >> >> > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's > refusal >> >> >> > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal access > to >> >> >> > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights >> >> >> > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages from > the >> >> >> > fund and the amount of damages to be received. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an >> >> >> > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights >> >> >> > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to increase >> >> >> > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities who > use >> >> >> > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service >> > announcement >> >> >> > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department of >> >> >> > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> >> >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From mikefry79 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 06:02:23 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 22:02:23 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with WalmartStores, Inc. In-Reply-To: References: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902032202j23e539c6k2382963c85ace8d7@mail.gmail.com> discriminating against service dogs and other accessibility issues while the disabled person is in the store is particularly egregious to me. On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:28 PM, wrote: > I like it. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:47 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with > WalmartStores, Inc. > > > No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and tell >> them that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their Target ads >> that if you are blind we will not shut the door on you or kick you out of >> the store. That would have done much more than any of this stuff. You need >> to humiliate the corporate boardroom and make heads roll before you are >> going to see any real changes out there. >> >> James >> >> On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" >> wrote: >> >>> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this settlement >>> >> Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for the >> next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With the >> federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal year, >> and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended its >> scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Craig >>> >>> >>> ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> >>> >>> > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On >>> >>> >>> > Behalf Of Robin Jones >>> >>> >>> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM >>> >>> >>> > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>> >>> >>> > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, >>> >>> >>> > Inc. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great Lakes >>> >> ADA >> >>> >>> >>> > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and Wal-Mart >>> >>> >>> > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a > >>> settlement >>> >>> >>> > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans >>> >> with >> >>> >>> >>> > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with disabilities >>> >> at >> >>> >>> >>> > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation > >>> that >>> >>> >>> > was initiated after the Department received several complaints alleging >>> >>> >>> > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its > >>> rules, >>> >>> >>> > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities in >>> >>> >>> > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged that >>> >>> >>> > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or were >>> >>> >>> > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by >>> >>> >>> > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. > >>> Service >>> >>> >>> > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to > >>> work >>> >>> >>> > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United >>> >>> >>> > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the >>> >> public, >> >>> >>> >>> > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and >>> >> Neighborhood >> >>> >>> >>> > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three >>> >>> >>> > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for >>> >>> >>> > customers with disabilities, including: >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of Title >>> >>> >>> > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals >>> >>> >>> > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as >>> >>> >>> > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, >>> >>> >>> > lifting, and carrying items; >>> >>> >>> > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of >>> >>> >>> > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into >>> >>> >>> > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated >>> >>> >>> > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; >>> >>> >>> > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title III >>> >>> >>> > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with >>> >>> >>> > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; >>> >>> >>> > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since >>> >>> >>> > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under >>> >>> >>> > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; >>> >>> >>> > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website >>> >>> >>> > and in employee areas at its stores; >>> >>> >>> > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will >>> >>> >>> > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a >>> >>> >>> > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate >>> >>> >>> > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the >>> >>> >>> > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into a >>> >>> >>> > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed >>> >>> >>> > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's >>> >> refusal >> >>> >>> >>> > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal access >>> >> to >> >>> >>> >>> > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights >>> >>> >>> > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages from >>> >> the >> >>> >>> >>> > fund and the amount of damages to be received. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an >>> >>> >>> > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights >>> >>> >>> > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to increase >>> >>> >>> > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities who >>> >> use >> >>> >>> >>> > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service > >>> announcement >>> >>> >>> > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department of >>> >>> >>> > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> >>> >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> blindlaw: >> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> >>> >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> blindlaw: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 09:46:20 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 01:46:20 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation In-Reply-To: <000325579e82ec50ca04620f90f4@google.com> References: <000325579e82ec50ca04620f90f4@google.com> Message-ID: <20090204094620.GC27734@yumi.bluecherry.net> My layman's understanding (supported by the BookShare website) is that 17 USC § 121 makes the requirement that you obtain permission for each work a moot point--it provides blanket permission, at the expense of the specialized format requirement (a concession demanded by publishers at the time this was being legislated). Universities to require that you purchase the book they chop up and scan, which should remove any question of the legality of a scan for the purpose of creating an accessibly formatted textbook. That DSOs retain a copy of the scanned book after they give it back to you might run into questionable legal ground. That's their problem though. It make sense as a time and cost-cutting measure if they have future students who need that particular textbook edition, but the law does not permit them to make a copy for their own convenience. I doubt that publishers are going to press that issue as long as their profits are not in danger, but they might have standing to do so. It appears I may be a layman longer than I hoped. Most schools' application deadline was last week, and I haven't taken the LSAT yet even. As God wills, I suppose. This much at least, this I can do. Oregon's going to get another run at accessible textbook legislation. Joseph On Wed, Feb 04, 2009 at 03:41:42AM +0000, b75205 at gmail.com wrote: > California law has it that textbooks have to be accessible to the blind > and that the publisher must provide this for free. Since they are doing > it for california this means the books exist. Also I beleive there is > anational law on this subject, the problem is one of enforcement not > access. > > If you take a book and chop it up and make an accessible book without the > publishers consent, you are violating their rights. Its just like when a > gbroup of authors tried to claim that paperback editions of books were > different than har covers in famous Garrard publsihing case in the 1970s. > If you chop up a book there is no guarantee that it will be done > properly. They have a right to present the material even if it is going > to be given away to the blind. The people who are in charge of the book > are the ones who have to make it accessible to the blind, it is their > work, it is not yours. > > Since most publishers want to sell textbooks to california, you just need > to find out which ones have done this work and which ones have not. > > james > > On Feb 3, 2009 5:42pm, "EJ Zufelt" wrote: >> Good evening, >> >> >> >> >> >> I support the concept of requiring textbook publishers to make >> accessible > copies of their texts available to students with disabilities. There > really just is no reason that they can't / shouldn't do this. >> >> >> >> >> >> However, practically speaking, in my first year of law school there was >> > only one textbook that was not available from the publisher in a digital > format. So, perhaps this is already being done by some publishers more > than people are aware. Normally contacting the publisher directly, or > through your educational institutions department for disabled students, > these texts can be obtained quite quickly. >> >> >> >> >> >> As for forcing a blind student to scan books themself, as a character > building exercise, I really don't understand this at all. As a blind > student I want the opportunity to be as lazy as my class mates (smile). > But seriously, I have spent many the hour scanning texts and could have > spent that time in more productive ways, like studying, socializing with > peers, participating in extra curricular activities, etc. >> >> >> >> >> >> Everett >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 3-Feb-09, at 6:43 PM, chatter8712 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> And Bookshare does it on a vollunteer effort. What we need to do is >> >> >> get something like bookshare for textbooks in general. Those with the >> >> >> skills can scan textbooks and the rest of us can use them under the >> >> >> same copyright clauses that make them available to Blind individuals >> >> >> under Bookshare. For your information, this law is 17 USC § 121, >> >> >> and reads partially as follows: >> >> >> >> >> >> "… it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to >> >> >> reproduce or to distribute copies of a previously published, >> >> >> nondramatic literary work if such copies are reproduced or distributed >> >> >> in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons >> >> >> with disabilities." >> >> >> >> >> >> More information available at http://bookshare.org/about/legalInformation. >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2/3/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net ckrugman at sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Good points. Bookshare.org has converted thousands of books to daisy > format. >> >> >> Chuck >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: b75205 at gmail.com> >> >> >> To: "Russell J. Thomas; Jr." rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com>; blindlaw at nfbnet.org> >> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:19 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hold your horses, this is already done. Books are made today for the >> >> >> California market, they are made to be converted to daisy format. Even >> >> >> trade publishers are required to do this work. The books exist. By the way >> >> >> >> >> >> you are probably stealing copyrights by cutting up books like that. >> >> >> >> >> >> The main problem with accessibility is that everyone thinks they have to >> >> >> reinvent the solution, when the problem is that your state IT people do >> >> >> not know what is out there, do not care and have no incentive to find out >> >> >> >> >> >> what is out there in the market. The re-inventing accessibility is a >> >> >> serious time waster and waster of resources. Forms designed by the state >> >> >> are extremely expensive and there really is no reason to waste this >> >> >> money. >> >> >> >> >> >> Choose publishers who have converted the books to daisy format. >> >> >> >> >> >> Most of them do this now. It is required under the law. Also there are >> >> >> organizations that are converting books to daisy format there is on in >> >> >> Lousiana that is converting text books. By the way, these books are free. >> >> >> >> >> >> The major problem with text books are tests. Questions and answers. That's >> >> >> >> >> >> where you will find your problems. The solutions to tests are a bit more >> >> >> complex and way beyond the abilities of your state IT people who are >> >> >> cutting up books. >> >> >> >> >> >> By the way you can make daisy formated documents using Word or InDesign. >> >> >> >> >> >> James Pepper >> >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 3, 2009 10:21am, "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> You might find the following URL helpful, although it appears that the >> >> >> >> >> site >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> may not have been updated for a while. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> www.tsbvi.edu/textbooks/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:27 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible textbook legislation >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We're getting ready for our state legislative seminar here in Oregon >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> and I suggested to my state president that the problem of accessible >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> textbooks here in Oregon is abysmal at best. He thinks he knows who >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I should talk to here in Oregon about that, if I can get a good >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> example of textbook legislation to work from. This is, I realize, a >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> national problem. Some universities solve it well enough, but the >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> closest to that at an Oregon university is the direct result of my >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> intervention. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I'd like to push my state to adopt accessible textbook standards. Is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> there a good template out there from which I can work? I am told >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> California does not allow its universities to use textbooks that >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> cannot be obtained in an accessible electronic format. That might be >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> a good starting place. *grin* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> While I am sure readers on this list and over on nabs-l (Cc'd) are >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> aware of what I mean by abysmal, I'll describe the standard process >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> used here in Oregon anyway: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. Students buy the books at retail price (hundreds of dollars). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Books cannot be purchased early, and must be carried several blocks >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> to the DSO. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2. Students deliver their books to their university's DSO. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. The DSO sends the book to the university print shop to cut up the >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> book. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. The cut book is returned to the DSO. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 5. The DSO scans the book using a B&W xerox machine at about 150 dpi. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 6. These scans are fed into an antiquated version of OCR software >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> such as ABBYY FineReader. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 7. ODS sends the book out to be "rebound" with a plastic comb. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 8. The poorly OCR'd text is edited by hand at least a little bit, in >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> theory. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 9. These lightly edited poor OCRs of textbooks are read using a >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "natural" voice into mp3 files. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 10. The student must come to the DSO to collect their mangled >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> textbooks and mp3 CDs, usually about the third week of an 11 week >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> quarter. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The process often _begins_ the first day of the term, because books >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> are not available any sooner than that. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The mp3 CDs are next to useless since they are computer-read versions >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> of badly scanned text, full of errors and lacking anything resembling >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> interpretations of diagrams. The printed books come back with pages >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> missing, out of order, torn, and otherwise destroyed. I am told that >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> my DSO spends an average of four hours editing a moderately sized >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> textbook once scanned, and the new person who spends the four hours >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> produces significantly better output in that time frame than her >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> predecessor, but it's still pretty bad no matter how you look at it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The cost to the university is more than a day's pay for someone per >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> book. The student's cost is several hundred dollars in destroyed >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> books, and this is standard policy at five higher educational >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> institutions I am aware of in my state. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> One of these is developing better policies based on my efforts, but >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> the better policies are meeting with lukewarm reactions by students >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> because as bad as the current system is, it doesn't involve waiting a >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> month for the publishers to finally respond that they don't have or >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> won't provide the textbook in question. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> And while some might argue that a blind student should be responsible >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> for scanning their own books, a more-than-full-time student does not >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> often have that luxury. When you consider the reading volume >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> required for graduate studies, that's just not feasible. Publishers >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> will not provide electronic copies to students, only to DSOs, only >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> when a student who needs it has registered for the class and >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> purchased a book and not always even then. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This must stop. The publishers should be routinely providing >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> electronic copies to DSOs as soon as they receive book orders so that >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> the electronic books are available to the DSO immediately to begin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> doing whatever they need to in order to adapt the book from a clean, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> correct, digital source. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> With the right pointers, I intend to do all that I can to make sure >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> it stops here in Oregon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Joseph >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> .com" >> >> >> >> >> > target="_blank">http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> >> >> >> blindlaw: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> blindlaw mailing list >> >> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info% > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From stiehm.law at juno.com Wed Feb 4 14:28:13 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 09:28:13 -0500 Subject: Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. �� 121 Message-ID: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader question of copyright infringement. For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy book. Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there a copyright violation at that point. I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for it. Is there a violation? Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find this of interest. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) ____________________________________________________________ Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ From rfarber at jw.com Wed Feb 4 14:37:19 2009 From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 08:37:19 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] general input please In-Reply-To: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> References: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> Message-ID: <8EA167BDF4483449B67BBE3BFCB648F1085B1F5D@pdc-mail01.jwllp.com> I am a transactional attorney and would be very interested in training that would be directed to my type of practice. Topics that come to mind are 1. techniques and technology for managing a large transaction, 2. techniques and technology for dealing with multi-hour telephone conferences and negotiations, 3. marketing, In addition to the cost of the seminar, consideration needs to be given to the cost of travel and hotel. Randy Randal S. Farber Jackson Walker L.L.P. 1401 McKinney, Suite 1900 Houston, Texas 77010 713-752-4241 - Phone 713-308-4120 - Fax RFarber at JW.Com -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:02 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] general input please Greetings: Last April, the National Association of Blind Lawyers conducted a training session with a WestLaw representative who knew JAWS and assistive technology for the blind/visually impaired. Many of us found the training extremely valuable because we were working in an accessible computer lab and the instructor could give us JAWS specific ways to access the information. Of course, it was also very helpful that we could hear exactly what she was doing. We are contemplating similar and expanded efforts in the future. These efforts would not only include additional training on technology based aids like Westlaw or Lexis but also how to manage litigation using alternative techniques and assistive technology. We could also offer some training for non-litigators who are involved in more regulatory or transactional work. One way to think of this is a series of training academies for blind/visually impaired attorneys. Of course, CLE would be an important part of any of this. So, before we plunge forward, I wanted to gage a sense of potential demand for such training. Assuming CLE credit would be offered and participants would be trained how to maximize their efficiency using assistive technology and other techniques, would your organization/employer pay for such training? If you are a solo/small firmer, would you pay for it? It would also make sense to offer this training to law students so that they could gain valuable skills prior to even setting foot in the legal profession. I suspect that voc rehab agencies could be convinced to pay for such blindness specific training. I know that the next question is how much? The truth is we don't know exactly. There could be a wide variety of programs offered differing greatly in scope. If, for example, we offered a NITA like trial training course using assistive technology and teaching effective, nonvisual litigation techniques, the training might be a week and would probably cost something similar to courses like NITA's. One or two day seminars emphasizing legal research would, of course, be much different in scope and cost less. Any way, I am seeking general input and thoughts about potential training programs. Not only am I attempting to gage demand, I am also seeking ideas about the type of training folks would find useful. I thank you in advance for your help. Please feel free to send me a message directly or respond generally to the list. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Farber, Randal S .vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 427 bytes Desc: Farber, Randal S .vcf URL: From chatter8712 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 15:04:37 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:04:37 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902040704g322654c1tfb9cde5e0edc4f47@mail.gmail.com> The following is just an oppinion of mine. I'm not a lawyer, nore a law student, just a party interested in the law: I have read the section, and I feel that what you would do - natural reader through a PDF and distributing that - would be against the law, as an MP3 CD is not a blind-specific format. Part of the law is that you must be an authorized entity, as bookshare is. Another part is the requirement for a blind-specific format, something like Dazy. If you were authorized (and how to become authorized isn't clear), and you bought the Tom Clancey novel, scanned it with OCR, and made it available to people with a proven disability, that would be legal. For example, bookshare requires a form from an instructer of the blind, or a doctor, to be "proof of a print disability." On 2/4/09, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how > truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. > Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather > limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > question of copyright infringement. > > For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, > cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. > After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format > (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy > book. > > Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then > give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there > a copyright violation at that point. > > I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to > listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it > up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for > it. Is there a violation? > > Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that > is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find > this of interest. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > ____________________________________________________________ > Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 15:46:02 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 07:46:02 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement withWalmartStores, Inc. In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902032202j23e539c6k2382963c85ace8d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com> <8c58e54a0902032202j23e539c6k2382963c85ace8d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately, the discrimination that was going on by Wal-Mart goes hand in hand with all the other bad business practices that it has engaged in including the way it treats its employees, encouraging them to go on public benefits, etc and forcing its competition out of the markets especially in small towns. I need to clarify that I like James's strtategy not the Wal-Mart discrimination practices. For political reasons I have never shopped at Wal-Mart and don't intend to start now. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Fry" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:02 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement withWalmartStores, Inc. > discriminating against service dogs and other accessibility issues while > the > disabled person is in the store is particularly egregious to me. > > On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:28 PM, wrote: > >> I like it. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:47 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with >> WalmartStores, Inc. >> >> >> No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and tell >>> them that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their Target >>> ads >>> that if you are blind we will not shut the door on you or kick you out >>> of >>> the store. That would have done much more than any of this stuff. You >>> need >>> to humiliate the corporate boardroom and make heads roll before you are >>> going to see any real changes out there. >>> >>> James >>> >>> On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this >>>> settlement >>>> >>> Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for the >>> next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With >>> the >>> federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal >>> year, >>> and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended >>> its >>> scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Craig >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> >>>> >>>> > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On >>>> >>>> >>>> > Behalf Of Robin Jones >>>> >>>> >>>> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM >>>> >>>> >>>> > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>>> >>>> >>>> > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, >>>> >>>> >>>> > Inc. >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great >>>> > Lakes >>>> >>> ADA >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and >>>> > Wal-Mart >>>> >>>> >>>> > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a > >>>> settlement >>>> >>>> >>>> > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans >>>> >>> with >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with >>>> > disabilities >>>> >>> at >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation > >>>> that >>>> >>>> >>>> > was initiated after the Department received several complaints >>>> > alleging >>>> >>>> >>>> > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its > >>>> rules, >>>> >>>> >>>> > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities >>>> > in >>>> >>>> >>>> > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged >>>> > that >>>> >>>> >>>> > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or >>>> > were >>>> >>>> >>>> > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by >>>> >>>> >>>> > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. > >>>> Service >>>> >>>> >>>> > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to > >>>> work >>>> >>>> >>>> > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United >>>> >>>> >>>> > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the >>>> >>> public, >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and >>>> >>> Neighborhood >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three >>>> >>>> >>>> > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for >>>> >>>> >>>> > customers with disabilities, including: >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of >>>> > Title >>>> >>>> >>>> > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals >>>> >>>> >>>> > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as >>>> >>>> >>>> > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, >>>> >>>> >>>> > lifting, and carrying items; >>>> >>>> >>>> > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of >>>> >>>> >>>> > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into >>>> >>>> >>>> > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated >>>> >>>> >>>> > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; >>>> >>>> >>>> > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title >>>> > III >>>> >>>> >>>> > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with >>>> >>>> >>>> > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; >>>> >>>> >>>> > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since >>>> >>>> >>>> > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under >>>> >>>> >>>> > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; >>>> >>>> >>>> > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website >>>> >>>> >>>> > and in employee areas at its stores; >>>> >>>> >>>> > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will >>>> >>>> >>>> > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a >>>> >>>> >>>> > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate >>>> >>>> >>>> > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the >>>> >>>> >>>> > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into >>>> > a >>>> >>>> >>>> > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed >>>> >>>> >>>> > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's >>>> >>> refusal >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal >>>> > access >>>> >>> to >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights >>>> >>>> >>>> > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages >>>> > from >>>> >>> the >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > fund and the amount of damages to be received. >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an >>>> >>>> >>>> > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights >>>> >>>> >>>> > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to >>>> > increase >>>> >>>> >>>> > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities >>>> > who >>>> >>> use >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service > >>>> announcement >>>> >>>> >>>> > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department >>>> > of >>>> >>>> >>>> > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>> >>>> >>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> >>> blindlaw: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> >>>> >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> >>> blindlaw: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From chatter8712 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 15:55:31 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:55:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement withWalmartStores, Inc. In-Reply-To: References: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com> <8c58e54a0902032202j23e539c6k2382963c85ace8d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902040755o524dbb30m889355373e16edbc@mail.gmail.com> I am personally not a fan of the fact that the settlement does not force Wal-mart to admit it was wrong. They do not claim guilt in the matter in the settlement. Also, the sum paid out seems a bit low, and Wal-mart gets it back if the checks aren't written in 120 days. I also don't like the way that the PSA's that Walmart is required to spend money on cannot mension Walmart, it's previous practices, or the settlement. On 2/4/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Unfortunately, the discrimination that was going on by Wal-Mart goes hand in > hand with all the other bad business practices that it has engaged in > including the way it treats its employees, encouraging them to go on public > benefits, etc and forcing its competition out of the markets especially in > small towns. I need to clarify that I like James's strtategy not the > Wal-Mart discrimination practices. For political reasons I have never > shopped at Wal-Mart and don't intend to start now. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Fry" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:02 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement > withWalmartStores, Inc. > > >> discriminating against service dogs and other accessibility issues while >> the >> disabled person is in the store is particularly egregious to me. >> >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:28 PM, wrote: >> >>> I like it. >>> Chuck >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:47 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with >>> WalmartStores, Inc. >>> >>> >>> No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and tell >>>> them that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their Target >>>> ads >>>> that if you are blind we will not shut the door on you or kick you out >>>> of >>>> the store. That would have done much more than any of this stuff. You >>>> need >>>> to humiliate the corporate boardroom and make heads roll before you are >>>> going to see any real changes out there. >>>> >>>> James >>>> >>>> On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this >>>>> settlement >>>>> >>>> Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for the >>>> next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With >>>> the >>>> federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal >>>> year, >>>> and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended >>>> its >>>> scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Craig >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > From: Region V ADA Information [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Behalf Of Robin Jones >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart Stores, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Inc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great >>>>> > Lakes >>>>> >>>> ADA >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and >>>>> > Wal-Mart >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a > >>>>> settlement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the Americans >>>>> >>>> with >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with >>>>> > disabilities >>>>> >>>> at >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation > >>>>> that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > was initiated after the Department received several complaints >>>>> > alleging >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its > >>>>> rules, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities >>>>> > in >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged >>>>> > that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or >>>>> > were >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. > >>>>> Service >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to > >>>>> work >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the United >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the >>>>> >>>> public, >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and >>>>> >>>> Neighborhood >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for three >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access for >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > customers with disabilities, including: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of >>>>> > Title >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to individuals >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in locating, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > lifting, and carrying items; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title >>>>> > III >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal policy; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, since >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its website >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > and in employee areas at its stores; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take appropriate >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 into >>>>> > a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's >>>>> >>>> refusal >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal >>>>> > access >>>>> >>>> to >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages >>>>> > from >>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > fund and the amount of damages to be received. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil Rights >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to >>>>> > increase >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities >>>>> > who >>>>> >>>> use >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service > >>>>> announcement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department >>>>> > of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From JMcCarthy at nfb.org Wed Feb 4 17:01:33 2009 From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org (McCarthy, Jim) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:01:33 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement AgreementwithWalmartStores, Inc. In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902040755o524dbb30m889355373e16edbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B26D527@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> I think you bring up an interesting philosophical question that regularly occurs in the entire disability community. Many settlements with private industry do not admit of wrong doing. On the other hand, the changes that are promised, if actually done, should positively impact the blind and disability community. It is true though that we are always at the mercy of the law teams for both sides and if they do a poor job of negotiating on our behalf, the settlement will fail to meet our needs. Regarding this particular settlement with the great giant of retail, I must confess to not yet forming an opinion. I am certain too that when I had a guide, I took him in to many of their stores without incident. Obviously, others had different experiences than mine and hence the effort to make the great giant answer. To those who might think I am an apologist for the great giant, I really cannot recall the last time I shopped in a Wall mart or Sam's Club but it probably was just before my mother died because that was her store of choice and she needed help shopping. Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of chatter8712 at gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 10:56 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement AgreementwithWalmartStores, Inc. I am personally not a fan of the fact that the settlement does not force Wal-mart to admit it was wrong. They do not claim guilt in the matter in the settlement. Also, the sum paid out seems a bit low, and Wal-mart gets it back if the checks aren't written in 120 days. I also don't like the way that the PSA's that Walmart is required to spend money on cannot mension Walmart, it's previous practices, or the settlement. On 2/4/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Unfortunately, the discrimination that was going on by Wal-Mart goes > hand in hand with all the other bad business practices that it has > engaged in including the way it treats its employees, encouraging them > to go on public benefits, etc and forcing its competition out of the > markets especially in small towns. I need to clarify that I like > James's strtategy not the Wal-Mart discrimination practices. For > political reasons I have never shopped at Wal-Mart and don't intend to start now. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Fry" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:02 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement > withWalmartStores, Inc. > > >> discriminating against service dogs and other accessibility issues >> while the disabled person is in the store is particularly egregious >> to me. >> >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:28 PM, wrote: >> >>> I like it. >>> Chuck >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:47 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with >>> WalmartStores, Inc. >>> >>> >>> No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and >>> tell >>>> them that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their >>>> Target ads that if you are blind we will not shut the door on you >>>> or kick you out of the store. That would have done much more than >>>> any of this stuff. You need to humiliate the corporate boardroom >>>> and make heads roll before you are going to see any real changes >>>> out there. >>>> >>>> James >>>> >>>> On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this >>>>> settlement >>>>> >>>> Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for >>>> the next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated >>>> fund. With the federal government incurring a trillion dollars in >>>> debt this fiscal year, and the country in a raging recession, >>>> couldn't the DOJ have expended its scarce resources here to at >>>> least slightly more fruitful effect? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Craig >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > From: Region V ADA Information >>>>> > [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Behalf Of Robin Jones >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart >>>>> > Stores, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Inc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great >>>>> > Lakes >>>>> >>>> ADA >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and >>>>> > Wal-Mart >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities >>>>> > Act >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a > >>>>> settlement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the >>>>> > Americans >>>>> >>>> with >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with >>>>> > disabilities >>>>> >>>> at >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an >>>>> > investigation > >>>>> that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > was initiated after the Department received several complaints >>>>> > alleging >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to >>>>> > its > >>>>> rules, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with >>>>> > disabilities in >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints >>>>> > alleged that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores >>>>> > or were >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges >>>>> > by >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. >>>>> > > >>>>> Service >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained >>>>> > to > >>>>> work >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the >>>>> > United >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of >>>>> > the >>>>> >>>> public, >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and >>>>> >>>> Neighborhood >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for >>>>> > three >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access >>>>> > for >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > customers with disabilities, including: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of >>>>> > Title >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to >>>>> > individuals >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in >>>>> > locating, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > lifting, and carrying items; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without >>>>> > repeated >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under >>>>> > Title III >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal >>>>> > policy; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, >>>>> > since >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities >>>>> > under >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its >>>>> > website >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > and in employee areas at its stores; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart >>>>> > will >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA >>>>> > at a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take >>>>> > appropriate >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III >>>>> > of the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 >>>>> > into a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who >>>>> > filed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > administrative complaints with the Department alleging >>>>> > Wal-Mart's >>>>> >>>> refusal >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal >>>>> > access >>>>> >>>> to >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil >>>>> > Rights >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Division will determine which complainants are to receive >>>>> > damages from >>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > fund and the amount of damages to be received. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil >>>>> > Rights >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to >>>>> > increase >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > public awareness of the access rights of persons with >>>>> > disabilities who >>>>> >>>> use >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service > >>>>> announcement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US >>>>> > Department of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Justice ADA Website at: >>>>> > http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> > info for >>>>> >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%4 >>>> 0comcast.net >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40 >>>> gmail.com >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman% >>>> 40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712% > 40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf b.org From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Feb 4 17:09:58 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:09:58 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Insight on Federal Policy: New Federal Law Promotes Success in Postsecondary Education for Students with Disabilities, Exceptional Parent Magazine, February 2009 Message-ID: Thought some on this list might find this information about provisions in the Higher Education Opportunity Act of 2008 regarding accessible textbook provisions of interest. Link: http://www.eparent.com/main_channels_education/index.asp Text: Insight on Federal Policy: New Federal Law Promotes Success in Postsecondary Education for Students with Disabilities The Higher Education Opportunity Act of 2008 (Public Law 110-315) (HEOA) was passed by the U.S. Congress and signed into law in August 2008. Five years overdue and several years in the making, the newly reauthorized Act will now direct the advancement of postsecondary education for at least the next five years. The Act authorizes a number of new grant programs, imposes a number of new reporting requirements on institutions, attempts to increase the integrity of student loan programs, simplifies the federal student aid application process, and adds provisions meant to control textbook costs, among just a few of its provisions. The Act also has a number of important provisions intended to improve both access and success for students with disabilities in postsecondary education. This article provides an overview of several new provisions specific to students with disabilities. National Center for Information and Technical Support for Postsecondary Students with Disabilities This new National Center will provide technical assistance and information on best and promising practices to students with disabilities, the families of students with disabilities, as well as entities awarded grants, contracts, or cooperative agreements to improve the postsecondary recruitment, transition, retention, and completion rates of students with disabilities. Student and family assistance will include information for prospective postsecondary students to use in transition planning while in secondary school; information and technical assistance provided to individualized education program (IEP) teams; research-based supports, services, and accommodations, which are available in postsecondary settings; information on student mentoring and networking opportunities for students with disabilities; and effective recruitment and transition programs at postsecondary educational institutions. The Center will also maintain a national Web-based database of disability support services information with respect to institutions of higher education, including available information on disability documentation requirements; support services available; links to financial aid; accommodations policies; accessible instructional materials; and other topics relevant to students with disabilities. Comprehensive Transition and Postsecondary Programs for Students with Intellectual Disabilities The Act establishes a new grant program to promote the successful transition of students with intellectual disabilities into higher education. Grant funds will be made available to institutions of higher education to support the development of programs that provide individual supports and services for the academic and social inclusion of students with intellectual disabilities in academic courses, extracurricular activities, and other aspects of the institution of higher education's regular postsecondary program. The Act defines "student with an intellectual disability" as a student with mental retardation or a cognitive impairment, characterized by significant limitations in intellectual and cognitive functioning; and adaptive behavior as expressed in conceptual, social, and practical adaptive skills; and who is currently, or was formerly, eligible for a free appropriate public education under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA). Programs funded by this grant program must be designed to support students with intellectual disabilities, who are seeking to continue academic, career, and technical, and independent living instruction at an institution of higher education in order to prepare for gainful employment. Advisory Commission on Accessible Instructional Materials in Postsecondary Education for Students with Disabilities. The Act authorizes a new Commission on Accessible Instructional Materials tasked with conducting a comprehensive study to assess the barriers and systemic issues that interfere with the timely provision of accessible instructional materials and to make recommendations related to the development of a comprehensive approach that can ensure access to these materials in a timeframe comparable to when students without disabilities have standard print textbooks available. The Commission is also to examine the feasibility of a standardized electronic file format, similar to the National Instructional Materials Accessibility Standard (NIMAS) mandated by IDEA 2004. (See Exceptional Parent, February 2008, "What You Need to Know About NIMAS"). Model Demonstration Programs to Support Improved Access to Postsecondary Instructional Materials for Students with Print Disabilities In addition to the Commission on Accessible Instructional Materials, the Act also authorizes model demonstration programs designed to encourage the development of systems to improve the availability of accessible format instructional materials for students with print disabilities in a timely manner. The Act defines a "student with a print disability" as a student with a disability, who experiences barriers to accessing instructional material in non-specialized formats. These model programs are tasked with conducting activities such as supporting the development and implementation of processes and systems in helping to identify and verify the eligibility of students with print disabilities who need materials in specialized formats; in simplifying ways the student request process takes place; in improving coordination between institutions and publishers; in establishing copyright protection of electronic textbook files; and in building awareness, outreach, and training activities for faculty, staff, and students related to the acquisition and dissemination of instructional materials in specialized formats. Demonstration Projects to Support Postsecondary Faculty, Staff, and Administrators in Educating Students with Disabilities The Act continues and expands upon a grant program to institutions of higher education designed to develop innovative, effective, and efficient teaching methods and strategies, consistent with the principles of universal design for learning, to provide postsecondary faculty, staff, and administrators with the skills and supports necessary to teach and meet the academic and programmatic needs of students with disabilities, in order to improve the retention of such students in, and the completion by such students of, postsecondary education. Demonstration projects can also work to ensure the successful and smooth transition of students with disabilities from secondary school to postsecondary education and the provision of accessible distance education programs or classes that would enhance the access of students with disabilities to postsecondary education, including the use of accessible curricula and electronic communication for instruction and advising. GAO Study on Postsecondary Education and Students with Disabilities In addition to these exciting new provisions in the HEOA, the U.S. Congress has directed the Government Accountability Office (GAO) to conduct a study to: * Examine the extent and manner in which students with disabilities are applying to, being accepted to, enrolling in, and graduating from different types of institutions of higher education. * Determine the factors that influence the physical, academic, social, and economic access for students with intellectual, emotional, and physical disabilities in higher education. * Collect and identify the rates of requests for, and access to, accommodations on college and graduate admissions tests. * Examine the effectiveness and capacity of disability support service offices in institutions of higher education. * Determine the extent to which institutions of higher education partner and coordinate services with other programs to assist students with disabilities. * Examine the program characteristics of institutions of higher education that have been effective in recruiting and graduating students with all types of disabilities. The findings of this study will help inform the U.S. Department of Education and the Congress as it continues to design and implement legislation and policies to improve postsecondary education success for students with disabilities. Candace Cortiella is Director of The Advocacy Institute (www.AdvocacyInstitute.org), a nonprofit organization dedicated to the development of products, projects, and services that work to improve the lives of people with disabilities. The mother of a young adult with learning disabilities and a disability rights advocate for over 17 years, she lives in the Washington, DC area. From rjaquiss at earthlink.net Wed Feb 4 18:45:57 2009 From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:45:57 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible__legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <79EA6D8C9B144DDF94A21674CEA425BD@D3DTZP41> Hello: It is my understanding that a blind or print disabled person can buy a book and scan the contents of the book to make it accessible. That person cannot give away or sell the accessible version in any form. Agencies that serve the blind and print disabled such as Book Share can do the same thing and allow certified blind or print disabled persons to download accessible material. If you become a "volunteer" for BookShare, you can scan any book and upload it to BookShare. As a volunteer, you are helping BookShare and are protected against action(s) by a publisher. For more information, go to the BookShare site. Regards, Robert Jaquiss, BookShare volunteer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:28 AM Subject: Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader question of copyright infringement. For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy book. Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there a copyright violation at that point. I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for it. Is there a violation? Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find this of interest. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) ____________________________________________________________ Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com Wed Feb 4 19:08:59 2009 From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:08:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia lawyers Message-ID: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Good afternoon.   This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually appears on the list; anyway, here it is.   In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I purchase braille paper?   Thanks.   Mike From pebreeze at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 19:50:55 2009 From: pebreeze at gmail.com (Philip Breeze) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:50:55 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <88afe4410902041150k2bd42a44m2232f0b1bbdf65ff@mail.gmail.com> This sounds like a job for Itunes or Google Books. If every book could be may accessible online in auditory format for a small fee it would amount to one large helpful project. Does anybody have any connections? On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how > truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. > Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather > limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > question of copyright infringement. > > For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, > cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. > After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format > (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy > book. > > Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then > give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there > a copyright violation at that point. > > I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to > listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it > up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for > it. Is there a violation? > > Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that > is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find > this of interest. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > ____________________________________________________________ > Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 20:12:48 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:48 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902040704g322654c1tfb9cde5e0edc4f47@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <7556b95a0902040704g322654c1tfb9cde5e0edc4f47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This seems like a valid interpretation. Note that all other providers of services for the blind that are not purchased require the same documentation, e.g. NLS and Recordings for the Blind. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:04 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 The following is just an oppinion of mine. I'm not a lawyer, nore a law student, just a party interested in the law: I have read the section, and I feel that what you would do - natural reader through a PDF and distributing that - would be against the law, as an MP3 CD is not a blind-specific format. Part of the law is that you must be an authorized entity, as bookshare is. Another part is the requirement for a blind-specific format, something like Dazy. If you were authorized (and how to become authorized isn't clear), and you bought the Tom Clancey novel, scanned it with OCR, and made it available to people with a proven disability, that would be legal. For example, bookshare requires a form from an instructer of the blind, or a doctor, to be "proof of a print disability." On 2/4/09, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how > truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. > Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather > limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > question of copyright infringement. > > For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, > cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. > After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format > (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy > book. > > Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then > give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there > a copyright violation at that point. > > I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to > listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it > up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for > it. Is there a violation? > > Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that > is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find > this of interest. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > ____________________________________________________________ > Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Wed Feb 4 20:30:23 2009 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:30:23 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] general input please References: <7C2F8E2AA8AF46018B7B2C66BD770E16@labarre> Message-ID: <8DE0B8DFB34B4807A84FB52CF5B34AE2@valtd> Scott, the trainer "supposedly" knew Jaws and used it during the cause of the training. Will any other screen reader be accommodated? Mega thanks!! Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From mikefry79 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 21:40:11 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:40:11 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia lawyers In-Reply-To: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902041340y2b85803aqcd4c3ac0819656a@mail.gmail.com> If you contact the Columbia Lighthouse for the Blind, located at 1825 K Street, NW Suite 1103, Washington, DC 20006, I bet they'll be able to tell you where you can buy braille paper in the area. Their phone number is 202-454-6400 On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Mike Gilmore wrote: > Good afternoon. > > This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually > appears on the list; anyway, here it is. > > In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I > purchase braille paper? > > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 21:43:20 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:43:20 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement AgreementwithWalmartStores, Inc. In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902040755o524dbb30m889355373e16edbc@mail.gmail.com> References: <00221532c75ca38fcd04620fa47b@google.com><8c58e54a0902032202j23e539c6k2382963c85ace8d7@mail.gmail.com> <7556b95a0902040755o524dbb30m889355373e16edbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately, this is a problem with out of court settlements. The guilty party agrees to conditions but does not have to admit guilt. If I recall correctly while Target agreed to the settlement in NFB of California V Target there was no admission of wrongdoing either. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement AgreementwithWalmartStores, Inc. >I am personally not a fan of the fact that the settlement does not > force Wal-mart to admit it was wrong. They do not claim guilt in the > matter in the settlement. Also, the sum paid out seems a bit low, and > Wal-mart gets it back if the checks aren't written in 120 days. I also > don't like the way that the PSA's that Walmart is required to spend > money on cannot mension Walmart, it's previous practices, or the > settlement. > > On 2/4/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> Unfortunately, the discrimination that was going on by Wal-Mart goes hand >> in >> hand with all the other bad business practices that it has engaged in >> including the way it treats its employees, encouraging them to go on >> public >> benefits, etc and forcing its competition out of the markets especially >> in >> small towns. I need to clarify that I like James's strtategy not the >> Wal-Mart discrimination practices. For political reasons I have never >> shopped at Wal-Mart and don't intend to start now. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael Fry" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:02 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement >> withWalmartStores, Inc. >> >> >>> discriminating against service dogs and other accessibility issues while >>> the >>> disabled person is in the store is particularly egregious to me. >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:28 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> I like it. >>>> Chuck >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:47 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with >>>> WalmartStores, Inc. >>>> >>>> >>>> No the solution here is to contact Dayton Hudson Corporation and tell >>>>> them that Walmart was doing this, so they can put it into their Target >>>>> ads >>>>> that if you are blind we will not shut the door on you or kick you out >>>>> of >>>>> the store. That would have done much more than any of this stuff. You >>>>> need >>>>> to humiliate the corporate boardroom and make heads roll before you >>>>> are >>>>> going to see any real changes out there. >>>>> >>>>> James >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 2, 2009 9:06pm, "Craig%20R.%20Anderson" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Well, folks, this is perhaps better than nothing. But in this >>>>>> settlement >>>>>> >>>>> Wal-mart is agreeing to do little more than comply with the law for >>>>> the >>>>> next three years and pay a nominal amount into a dedicated fund. With >>>>> the >>>>> federal government incurring a trillion dollars in debt this fiscal >>>>> year, >>>>> and the country in a raging recession, couldn't the DOJ have expended >>>>> its >>>>> scarce resources here to at least slightly more fruitful effect? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Craig >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Noel Nightingale Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > From: Region V ADA Information >>>>>> > [mailto:GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Behalf Of Robin Jones >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:32 AM >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > To: GREATLAKES at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Subject: Announcement: DOJ Settlement Agreement with Walmart >>>>>> > Stores, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Inc. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > The following information is forwarded to you by the DBTAC-Great >>>>>> > Lakes >>>>>> >>>>> ADA >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Center (www.adagreatlakes.org) for your information: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Settlement Agreement between the United States of America and >>>>>> > Wal-Mart >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Stores, Inc. Under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > On January 16, 2009, the Civil Rights Division entered into a > >>>>>> settlement >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > agreement with Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. under Title III of the >>>>>> > Americans >>>>>> >>>>> with >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Disabilities Act (ADA) to improve access for persons with >>>>>> > disabilities >>>>>> >>>>> at >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Wal-Mart stores nationwide. The agreement resolves an investigation >>>>>> > > >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > was initiated after the Department received several complaints >>>>>> > alleging >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > that Wal-Mart had refused to make reasonable modifications to its > >>>>>> rules, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > policies, practices, and procedures for customers with disabilities >>>>>> > in >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > violation of Title III of the ADA. Many of the complaints alleged >>>>>> > that >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > persons with disabilities were denied access to Wal-Mart stores or >>>>>> > were >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > denied an equal opportunity to shop, free of repeated challenges by >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Wal-Mart staff, because they were accompanied by serice animals. > >>>>>> Service >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > animals are dogs and other animals that are individually trained to >>>>>> > > >>>>>> work >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > or perform tasks for persons with disabilities. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > The settlement agreement covers all facilities located in the >>>>>> > United >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > States where Wal-Mart sells any good or service to members of the >>>>>> >>>>> public, >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > including all Wal-Mart stores, Supercenters, Sam's Clubs, and >>>>>> >>>>> Neighborhood >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Markets. The settlement agreement, which will be effective for >>>>>> > three >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > years, requires Wal-Mart to take several steps to improve access >>>>>> > for >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > customers with disabilities, including: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > * an undertaking by Wal-Mart not to discriminate in violation of >>>>>> > Title >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > III of the ADA and to provide reasonable modifications to >>>>>> > individuals >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > with disabilities as required by Title III of the ADA, such as >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > disability-related assistance such as helping customers in >>>>>> > locating, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > lifting, and carrying items; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > * the adoption and implementation of an ADA-compliant policy of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > welcoming persons with disabilities who use service animals into >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Wal-Mart stores with little or no questioning and without repeated >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > challenges by Wal-Mart employees; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > * training for all employees on Wal-Mart's obligations under Title >>>>>> > III >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > of the ADA to make reasonable modifications for individuals with >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > disabilities and Wal-Mart's new ADA-compliant service animal >>>>>> > policy; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > * additional training for store management and People Greeters, >>>>>> > since >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > employees in these positions have additional responsibilities under >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Wal-Mart's new service animal policy; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > * the posting of Wal-Mart's new service animal policy on its >>>>>> > website >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > and in employee areas at its stores; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > * the establishment of a grievance procedure in which Wal-Mart will >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > receive complaints alleging violations of Title III of the ADA at a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > toll-free hotline, investigate such complaints, and take >>>>>> > appropriate >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > corrective actions to resolve any noncompliance with Title III of >>>>>> > the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > ADA, including relief to complainants where appropriate;. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Under the settlement agreement, Wal-Mart will also pay $150,000 >>>>>> > into >>>>>> > a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > fund to compensate certain individuals with disabilities who filed >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > administrative complaints with the Department alleging Wal-Mart's >>>>>> >>>>> refusal >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > to make reasonable modifications, including the denial of equal >>>>>> > access >>>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > persons with disabilities who use service animals. The Civil Rights >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Division will determine which complainants are to receive damages >>>>>> > from >>>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > fund and the amount of damages to be received. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > In furtherance of the public interest, Wal-Mart will also pay an >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > additional $100,000 into a fund that will be used by the Civil >>>>>> > Rights >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Division to finance a public service announcement campaign to >>>>>> > increase >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > public awareness of the access rights of persons with disabilities >>>>>> > who >>>>>> >>>>> use >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > service animals. The nature and scope of the public service > >>>>>> announcement >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > campaign will be determined by the Civil Rights Division. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > The complete Settlement Agreement is available on the US Department >>>>>> > of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Justice ADA Website at: http://www.ada.gov/walmart.htm#settlement >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> > for >>>>>> >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 21:56:19 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:56:19 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginialawyers In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902041340y2b85803aqcd4c3ac0819656a@mail.gmail.com> References: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8c58e54a0902041340y2b85803aqcd4c3ac0819656a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9EC0F806A5A643619CC49FE7417E7877@spike> Actually any printing supply or paper company has it In the printing industry it is referred to as a certain type of paper with a certain weight. I don't remember the type but I the weight is 80. Getting it this way in the long run is much cheaper if you need large quantities at a time. I would take a sample in to a printing supply or stationery company and they can identify the type and weight. This was suggested to me to cut costs for operating a Braille printer. Chuck Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Fry" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginialawyers > If you contact the Columbia Lighthouse for the Blind, located at 1825 K > Street, NW > Suite 1103, Washington, DC 20006, I bet they'll be able to tell you where > you can buy braille paper in the area. Their phone number is 202-454-6400 > > On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Mike Gilmore > wrote: > >> Good afternoon. >> >> This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually >> appears on the list; anyway, here it is. >> >> In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I >> purchase braille paper? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From dandrews at visi.com Thu Feb 5 01:15:10 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 In-Reply-To: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio reading services, and information access services for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your first action, making MP3's would be find under fair use, but giving to others or posting on internet would not be. If you gave him the book, you might be able to give him the MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, even if not charging would be ok. You are not a nonprofit serving the blind etc. Dave At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader >question of copyright infringement. > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy >book. > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there >a copyright violation at that point. > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for >it. Is there a violation? > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find >this of interest. > >Patrick H. Stiehm >Stiehm Law Office >Alexandria, VA 22309 >703-360-1089 (Voice) >703-935-8266 (Fax) >____________________________________________________________ >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 02:06:37 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 18:06:37 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] =?utf-8?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U=2ES?= =?utf-8?b?LkMuIMKnIDEyMQ==?= In-Reply-To: References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <7556b95a0902040704g322654c1tfb9cde5e0edc4f47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090205020637.GA40987@yumi.bluecherry.net> University DSOs require both purchase of materials AND proof of disability. Joseph On Wed, Feb 04, 2009 at 12:12:48PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > This seems like a valid interpretation. Note that all other providers of > services for the blind that are not purchased require the same > documentation, e.g. NLS and Recordings for the Blind. > Chuck From k7uij at panix.com Thu Feb 5 03:36:31 2009 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 19:36:31 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible__legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Yes there is a vilation since you are not a nonprofit or governmental organization. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:28 AM Subject: Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader question of copyright infringement. For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy book. Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is there a copyright violation at that point. I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people to listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for it. Is there a violation? Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find this of interest. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) ____________________________________________________________ Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs now. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From stiehm.law at juno.com Thu Feb 5 13:12:49 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 08:12:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 Message-ID: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a bit of research and as a result here is what I have concluded. Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I purchased the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a voice format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. Since it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired legally, I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I understand that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other countries, i.e. Australia.) Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the copy right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this thread. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews writes: > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > reading services, and information access services > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > first action, making MP3's would be find under > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > internet would not be. If you gave him > the book, you might be able to give him the > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > Dave > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of > how > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection > is. > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > rather > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > >question of copyright infringement. > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > paperback, > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > document. > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > format > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > Clancy > >book. > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I > then > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is > there > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for > people to > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply > put it > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging > for > >it. Is there a violation? > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area > that > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all > find > >this of interest. > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > >Stiehm Law Office > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > >____________________________________________________________ > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > needs now. > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >blindlaw mailing list > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > >your account info for blindlaw: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis i.com > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBrZ5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 5 17:48:58 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 09:48:58 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Disability Rights Attorney or SS Disability Attorney Message-ID: <02144343DF194C66A66F654D08AC4DCC@JamesWeisberg> Hello Members: I am seeking to consult briefly off list with either, ideally both, of any members referenced in the subject line concerning specific aspects of their practice. Thank you. James From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 6 03:11:11 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 19:11:11 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Disability Rights Attorney or SS Disability Attorney Message-ID: Hello Members: I am seeking to consult briefly off list with either, ideally both, of any members referenced in the subject line concerning specific aspects of their practice. Thank you. James From RWayne1 at nyc.rr.com Fri Feb 6 03:43:30 2009 From: RWayne1 at nyc.rr.com (Ray Wayne) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:43:30 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia lawyers References: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003701c9880d$13da5d40$0794cb45@nyc.rr.com> This is totally off topic, but someone recently asked me where the expression "out of left field" originated. Why not "out of right field," or something else. If anyone knows, please e-mail me off list. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Gilmore" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 2:08 PM Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia lawyers Good afternoon. This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually appears on the list; anyway, here it is. In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I purchase braille paper? Thanks. Mike _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c om From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 04:08:41 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:08:41 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Look its real simple, the publishers are allowing bookshare to do this, but in the end they own the content. They will never relinquish that right and they should not. Also this content is provided by most publishers and they can control the content becasue what happens when you copy it the wrong way, get the wrong intent. What is the liability of an institution when they get something wrong becasue they were not the authors, they were not the publishers. It is not the fault of the publisher it is not the fault of the author. This is why you can't go around stealing their work. On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Yes there is a vilation since you are not a nonprofit or governmental > organization. > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:28 AM > Subject: Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how > truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. > Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather > limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > question of copyright infringement. > > For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, > cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. > After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format > (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy > book. > > Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then > give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is > there > a copyright violation at that point. > > I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people > to > listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it > up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for > it. Is there a violation? > > Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that > is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find > this of interest. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > ____________________________________________________________ > Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs > now. > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 05:57:40 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 23:57:40 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Here is the law: (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities. (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) not be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a format other than a specialized format is an infringement; and (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the date of the original publication. (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed to users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. From cjborne at comcast.net Fri Feb 6 06:39:41 2009 From: cjborne at comcast.net (Craig Borne) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 01:39:41 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Disability Rights Attorney or SS Disability Attorney In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003801c98825$b1544ff0$7100a8c0@computer> James, Contact me at cdborne at gmail.com with any specifics. Craig Craig Borne, Esq. Baltimore, Maryland "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom." --Thomas Paine, Common Sense -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:11 PM To: Blindlaw at Nfbnet. Org Subject: [blindlaw] Disability Rights Attorney or SS Disability Attorney Hello Members: I am seeking to consult briefly off list with either, ideally both, of any members referenced in the subject line concerning specific aspects of their practice. Thank you. James _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast. net From roddj12 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 6 07:27:18 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:27:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginialawyers References: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <003701c9880d$13da5d40$0794cb45@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: Well, that sounds like a sporting phrase to me. I don't know conclusively but it makes sense! Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Wayne" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:43 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginialawyers > This is totally off topic, but someone recently asked me where the > expression "out of left field" originated. Why not "out of right field," > or > something else. > If anyone knows, please e-mail me off list. > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Gilmore" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 2:08 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia > lawyers > > > Good afternoon. > > This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually > appears on the list; anyway, here it is. > > In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I > purchase braille paper? > > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 08:04:15 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:04:15 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 In-Reply-To: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a literary work and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical book you would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you just stole his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way you do not aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his copyright. Oh and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to enforcement of Tom Clancy books! James Pepper On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a bit of > research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > > Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I purchased > the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut it up, > run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's > was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a voice > format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. Since > it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired legally, > I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I understand > that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other > countries, i.e. Australia.) > > Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the copy > right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this thread. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews > writes: > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > reading services, and information access services > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > Dave > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of > > how > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection > > is. > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > > rather > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > > paperback, > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > > document. > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > format > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > > Clancy > > >book. > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I > > then > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is > > there > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for > > people to > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply > > put it > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging > > for > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area > > that > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all > > find > > >this of interest. > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > >Stiehm Law Office > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > >____________________________________________________________ > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > > needs now. > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV > eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >blindlaw mailing list > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis > i.com > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBrZ5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 08:06:00 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:06:00 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia lawyers In-Reply-To: <003701c9880d$13da5d40$0794cb45@nyc.rr.com> References: <812541.90937.qm@web90307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <003701c9880d$13da5d40$0794cb45@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: Well you put your worse players into right field. James Pepper On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Ray Wayne wrote: > This is totally off topic, but someone recently asked me where the > expression "out of left field" originated. Why not "out of right field," > or > something else. > If anyone knows, please e-mail me off list. > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Gilmore" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 2:08 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginia lawyers > > > Good afternoon. > > This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually > appears on the list; anyway, here it is. > > In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I > purchase braille paper? > > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From everett at zufelt.ca Fri Feb 6 11:14:37 2009 From: everett at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 07:14:37 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 In-Reply-To: References: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <62039EFD-2D22-4A93-B362-020106EDAA9E@zufelt.ca> Good morning, What if, as a blind individual, I do not wish to listen to the audio book that the publisher provides, but wish to read the text using the same voice and technology that I use for reading so many other texts that I come across. Should I have to listen to the publisher's audio interpretation of the text, or shouldn't I have the right to access the text in the same way that I access all other texts? To me, there is a big difference in listening to a audio book, recorded with a human voice, than listening to a synthesized voice read the text, sometimes I prefer one, and sometimes the other. As a blind individual shouldn't I have the right to access the text of a printed book, without having to purchase the audio version? Or, perhaps I purchase the book in print, allow a family member to read it, then cut it apart so that I can read it using a computer. Shouldn't I be able to share a text this way, or does my family need to purchase two copies, one print, and one audio? Thanks, Everett On 6-Feb-09, at 4:04 AM, James Pepper wrote: > No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a > literary work > and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical book > you > would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you just > stole > his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way you do > not > aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his > copyright. Oh > and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to > enforcement > of Tom Clancy books! > > James Pepper > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > wrote: > >> I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a >> bit of >> research and as a result here is what I have concluded. >> >> Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I >> purchased >> the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut >> it up, >> run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After >> it's >> was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a voice >> format. I then listened to the book in that recorded >> format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. >> Since >> it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired >> legally, >> I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I >> understand >> that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other >> countries, i.e. Australia.) >> >> Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the copy >> right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this thread. >> >> Patrick H. Stiehm >> Stiehm Law Office >> Alexandria, VA 22309 >> 703-360-1089 (Voice) >> 703-935-8266 (Fax) >> >> On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews >> writes: >>> While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio >>> reading services, and information access services >>> for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your >>> first action, making MP3's would be find under >>> fair use, but giving to others or posting on >>> internet would not be. If you gave him >>> the book, you might be able to give him the >>> MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, >>> even if not charging would be ok. You are not a >>> nonprofit serving the blind etc. >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >>>> A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of >>> how >>>> truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection >>> is. >>>> Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other >>> rather >>>> limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader >>>> question of copyright infringement. >>>> >>>> For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in >>> paperback, >>>> cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF >>> document. >>>> After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a >>>> recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded >>> format >>>> (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom >>> Clancy >>>> book. >>>> >>>> Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I >>> then >>>> give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is >>> there >>>> a copyright violation at that point. >>>> >>>> I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for >>> people to >>>> listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply >>> put it >>>> up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging >>> for >>>> it. Is there a violation? >>>> >>>> Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area >>> that >>>> is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all >>> find >>>> this of interest. >>>> >>>> Patrick H. Stiehm >>>> Stiehm Law Office >>>> Alexandria, VA 22309 >>>> 703-360-1089 (Voice) >>>> 703-935-8266 (Fax) >>>> ____________________________________________________________ >>>> Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household >>> needs now. >>> >>> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV >> eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>>> your account info for blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis >> i.com >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: >>>> 270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >> no.com >>> >>> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. >> >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBrZ5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zufelt.ca From stiehm.law at juno.com Fri Feb 6 14:27:01 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:27:01 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 Message-ID: <20090206.092701.4008.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Mr. Pepper, I respectfully disagree. What I have described vis-a-vis the Tom Clancy book is really just format shifting of an item that I own, i.e., the book. (I agree Tom Clancy or whoever continues to own the copyright.) However, format-shifting - that is, taking content you own in one format and putting it into another format, for personal, use, is considered fair use. I base this on 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Circ. 1999). Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:04:15 -0600 James Pepper writes: > No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a > literary work > and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical book > you > would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you just > stole > his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way you do > not > aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his > copyright. Oh > and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to > enforcement > of Tom Clancy books! > > James Pepper > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > wrote: > > > I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a > bit of > > research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > > > > Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I > purchased > > the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut > it up, > > run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After > it's > > was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a > voice > > format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. > Since > > it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired > legally, > > I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I > understand > > that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other > > countries, i.e. Australia.) > > > > Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the > copy > > right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this > thread. > > > > Patrick H. Stiehm > > Stiehm Law Office > > Alexandria, VA 22309 > > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews > > > writes: > > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > > reading services, and information access services > > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the > realization of > > > how > > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright > protection > > > is. > > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > > > rather > > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a > broader > > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > > > paperback, > > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > > > document. > > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to > a > > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > > format > > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > > > Clancy > > > >book. > > > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with > it I > > > then > > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. > Is > > > there > > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files > for > > > people to > > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I > simply > > > put it > > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my > charging > > > for > > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright > area > > > that > > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should > all > > > find > > > >this of interest. > > > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > > >Stiehm Law Office > > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > > > needs now. > > > > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV > > eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >blindlaw mailing list > > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis > > i.com > > > > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > > > for blindlaw: > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > > no.com > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. > > > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBr Z5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Click now for prescreened plumbing contractors. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4DnEW1a0xT6OGF80cBnxexk1PhMOwvk4Xzb1KIzR6w80hZ1/ From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 6 15:37:09 2009 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 07:37:09 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <005f01c98870$c6708f70$6601a8c0@server> Hello, To say that the publishers are allowing Bookshare to disseminate their works implies that they could disallow book share to do this. Copyright holders do not have that power. A copyright holders permission is not needed by Bookshare. The right to deny a nonprofit to create copies of a copyrighted work in alternative formats for the blind was eliminated by the Chafee amendment. Regards, Dennis Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 Look its real simple, the publishers are allowing bookshare to do this, but in the end they own the content. They will never relinquish that right and they should not. Also this content is provided by most publishers and they can control the content becasue what happens when you copy it the wrong way, get the wrong intent. What is the liability of an institution when they get something wrong becasue they were not the authors, they were not the publishers. It is not the fault of the publisher it is not the fault of the author. This is why you can't go around stealing their work. On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Yes there is a vilation since you are not a nonprofit or governmental > organization. > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:28 AM > Subject: Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of how > truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection is. > Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other rather > limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > question of copyright infringement. > > For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in paperback, > cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. > After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded format > (MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom Clancy > book. > > Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I then > give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is > there > a copyright violation at that point. > > I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for people > to > listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply put it > up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging for > it. Is there a violation? > > Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area that > is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all find > this of interest. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > ____________________________________________________________ > Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household needs > now. > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpVeDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 6 15:48:08 2009 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 07:48:08 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] =?windows-1252?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_?= =?windows-1252?q?U=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server> Hello, Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the thermoforming of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about copyright infringement? Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 Here is the law: (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities. (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) not be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a format other than a specialized format is an infringement; and (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the date of the original publication. (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed to users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From chatter8712 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 15:49:57 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 10:49:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: <006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server> References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902060749l362a9fa1h3711503c88de03f7@mail.gmail.com> I think that the main point in this, like all copyright cases, is complete relinquishment of the material. If you give the modified materialto another student and relinquish your right to the material (you don't keep any copy, digital or otherwise) it's completely legal. Same as if I sold a CD I had not ripped to someone else. On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hello, > Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another > student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the thermoforming > of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to > prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in > redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about copyright > infringement? > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > Here is the law: > (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section > 106, > it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce > or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, > nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or > distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other > persons with disabilities. > (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) not > be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format > exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; > (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a format > other than a specialized format is an infringement; and > (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the date > of the original publication. > (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, > secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to > computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional > human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed to > users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Feb 6 17:22:12 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 10:22:12 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment Message-ID: <2B21FC0F46C647D5BC9ACCDAE41A2858@labarre> I urge everyone to call their Senators. The Nelson-Collins Amendment would do away with money directly targeted to get disabled people jobs. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: Freeh, Jessica To: Alpidio Rolon ; Amy Buresh ; Anil Lewis ; Art Schreiber ; Beth Rival ; Bob Kresmer ; Carl Jacobsen ; Cathy Jackson ; Charlene Smyth ; Christine G. Hall ; Daniel Burke ; David Ticchi ; Don Galloway ; Donna Wood ; Elsie Lamp ; Franklin Shiner ; Fred Schroeder ; Fred Wurtzel ; Gary Ray ; Gary Wunder ; J.W. Smith ; James Antonacci ; Jennelle Bichler ; Jennifer Dunnam ; Jerree Harris ; Joe Ruffalo ; John Batron ; John Fritz ; Joyce Scanlan ; Kathy Davis ; Ken Rollman ; Kevan Worley ; Marie Johnson ; Mary Willows ; Melissa Riccobono ; Michael Barber ; Michael Freeman ; Michael Seay ; Minnie Walker ; Minnie Walker ; Nani Fife ; Pam Allen ; Parnell Diggs ; Patti Chang ; Richard Bennett ; Richard Gaffney ; Ron Brown ; Ron Gardner ; Sam Gleese ; Scott LaBarre ; Selena Sundling-Crawford ; Steven Priddle ; Terri Rupp ; Tommy Craig Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." # # # About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 6 20:35:07 2009 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 12:35:07 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] =?windows-1252?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_?= =?windows-1252?q?U=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com><006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server> <7556b95a0902060749l362a9fa1h3711503c88de03f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007101c9889a$66795aa0$6601a8c0@server> Hello, What you have presented is your interpretation of what common sense tells you the statute must mean. Unfortunately, with statutes, we are stuck with the exact language of the statute, and court opinions which have interpreted the meaning of the statute. As a lawyer you could make this argument to a court, but the reality is that the statute does not specifically say what you are reading into it. Consequently, you would need to find a federal court opinion which presents your view, and I am not aware of one which does. The Chafee amendment specifies that only nonprofit entities that produce books in alternative formats for the blind may distribute them. It does not say that a blind person who has received a copyrighted work in an alternative format from an authorized entity, may himself distribute his copy to anyone else who is also blind, even when he does not retain any copies. This argument suggests that a slight twist on the first sale doctrine is present in the Chafee amendment, but I am not aware of any source to support this idea. The first sale doctrine is what permits you to resell or give away a patented or copyrighted product which you purchased. Without the first sale doctrine, you would never be able to resell a copyrighted or patented product which you legitimately purchased, because selling a copyrighted or patented product when you do not own the intellectual property rights is the very definition of infringement. My legal advice based on a strict reading of the Chafee amendment to a client who wishes to give a Braille book produced by a nonprofit entity, is that they should return the Braille book to the nonprofit entity which originally produced it, along with instructions to ship the Braille book to the other blind party. The reason for the nonprofit to be the decider of who should receive books in alternative formats, is that they have established procedures in place to determine who is actually blind or reading disabled, and therefore authorized to receive materials in alternative formats. The blind owner of the book we are discussing has no medical documentation to know for a fact that the party he is giving the Braille book to is actually reading disabled. The recipient for example could be sighted, and then scan the Braille book into a computer using software which will convert grade 2 Braille into an electronic file, and then use that file to print out illegal copies of the copyrighted work in print. Seems like a lot of work, but it could be done, and this is what the law is attempting to prevent. Moreover, if the Chafee amendment permits us to redistribute books in alternative formats for use by the blind so long as we do not retain a copy for ourselves, we could redistribute Bookshare and RFB books without violating the copyright act. We would of course be violating our membership agreement with Bookshare and RFB, but that is a question of contract law, not copyright law. Clearly Bookshare and RFB believe this would violate the Chafee amendment and that is why their membership agreement prohibits us from giving copies of books obtained from them to other blind people. Copyright law presents interesting questions. Regards, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:49 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 I think that the main point in this, like all copyright cases, is complete relinquishment of the material. If you give the modified materialto another student and relinquish your right to the material (you don't keep any copy, digital or otherwise) it's completely legal. Same as if I sold a CD I had not ripped to someone else. On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hello, > Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another > student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the thermoforming > of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to > prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in > redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about > copyright > infringement? > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > Here is the law: > (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section > 106, > it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to > reproduce > or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, > nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or > distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other > persons with disabilities. > (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) > not > be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format > exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; > (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a > format > other than a specialized format is an infringement; and > (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the > date > of the original publication. > (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, > secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to > computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional > human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed > to > users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From JFreeh at nfb.org Fri Feb 6 20:35:42 2009 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:35:42 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." # # # About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. From chatter8712 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 20:39:19 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 15:39:19 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: <007101c9889a$66795aa0$6601a8c0@server> References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server> <7556b95a0902060749l362a9fa1h3711503c88de03f7@mail.gmail.com> <007101c9889a$66795aa0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902061239x3859f664me93cad9b4a35ee7f@mail.gmail.com> That would be true, but I was refering to a book that you yourself produced in an alternative format. On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hello, > What you have presented is your interpretation of what common sense tells > you the statute must mean. Unfortunately, with statutes, we are stuck with > the exact language of the statute, and court opinions which have interpreted > the meaning of the statute. As a lawyer you could make this argument to a > court, but the reality is that the statute does not specifically say what > you are reading into it. Consequently, you would need to find a federal > court opinion which presents your view, and I am not aware of one which > does. > > The Chafee amendment specifies that only nonprofit entities that produce > books in alternative formats for the blind may distribute them. It does not > say that a blind person who has received a copyrighted work in an > alternative format from an authorized entity, may himself distribute his > copy to anyone else who is also blind, even when he does not retain any > copies. This argument suggests that a slight twist on the first sale > doctrine is present in the Chafee amendment, but I am not aware of any > source to support this idea. The first sale doctrine is what permits you to > resell or give away a patented or copyrighted product which you purchased. > Without the first sale doctrine, you would never be able to resell a > copyrighted or patented product which you legitimately purchased, because > selling a copyrighted or patented product when you do not own the > intellectual property rights is the very definition of infringement. > > My legal advice based on a strict reading of the Chafee amendment to a > client who wishes to give a Braille book produced by a nonprofit entity, is > that they should return the Braille book to the nonprofit entity which > originally produced it, along with instructions to ship the Braille book to > the other blind party. The reason for the nonprofit to be the decider of > who should receive books in alternative formats, is that they have > established procedures in place to determine who is actually blind or > reading disabled, and therefore authorized to receive materials in > alternative formats. > > The blind owner of the book we are discussing has no medical documentation > to know for a fact that the party he is giving the Braille book to is > actually reading disabled. The recipient for example could be sighted, and > then scan the Braille book into a computer using software which will convert > grade 2 Braille into an electronic file, and then use that file to print out > illegal copies of the copyrighted work in print. Seems like a lot of work, > but it could be done, and this is what the law is attempting to prevent. > > Moreover, if the Chafee amendment permits us to redistribute books in > alternative formats for use by the blind so long as we do not retain a copy > for ourselves, we could redistribute Bookshare and RFB books without > violating the copyright act. We would of course be violating our membership > agreement with Bookshare and RFB, but that is a question of contract law, > not copyright law. Clearly Bookshare and RFB believe this would violate the > Chafee amendment and that is why their membership agreement prohibits us > from giving copies of books obtained from them to other blind people. > > Copyright law presents interesting questions. > > Regards, > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:49 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > I think that the main point in this, like all copyright cases, is > complete relinquishment of the material. If you give the modified > materialto another student and relinquish your right to the material > (you don't keep any copy, digital or otherwise) it's completely legal. > Same as if I sold a CD I had not ripped to someone else. > > On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: >> Hello, >> Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another >> student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the thermoforming >> of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to >> prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in >> redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about >> copyright >> infringement? >> Dennis >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Pepper" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 >> >> >> Here is the law: >> (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section >> 106, >> it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to >> reproduce >> or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, >> nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or >> distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other >> persons with disabilities. >> (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) >> not >> be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format >> exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; >> (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a >> format >> other than a specialized format is an infringement; and >> (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the >> date >> of the original publication. >> (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, >> secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to >> computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional >> human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed >> to >> users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From angie at mpmail.net Fri Feb 6 20:42:39 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:42:39 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Mike and all, I think that the NFB has the best price on tractor-feed paper. I believe it's $30 for a box of 1000 sheets, plus $14 shipping. Should get to you pretty quickly, given your location. Angie From angie at mpmail.net Fri Feb 6 20:47:03 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:47:03 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern virginialawyers In-Reply-To: <9EC0F806A5A643619CC49FE7417E7877@spike> Message-ID: Hi, I also got some paper from Michael's that works well with a braille writer. I think it was about $4 for 100 sheets of 8.5x11 paper. The paper from NFB that I mentioned in my last post was the wider 11.5X11 paper. Angie On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:56:19 -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >Actually any printing supply or paper company has it In the printing >industry it is referred to as a certain type of paper with a certain weight. >I don't remember the type but I the weight is 80. Getting it this way in the >long run is much cheaper if you need large quantities at a time. I would >take a sample in to a printing supply or stationery company and they can >identify the type and weight. This was suggested to me to cut costs for >operating a Braille printer. >Chuck >Chuck >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael Fry" >To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 1:40 PM >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] out of leftfield question for northern >virginialawyers >> If you contact the Columbia Lighthouse for the Blind, located at 1825 K >> Street, NW >> Suite 1103, Washington, DC 20006, I bet they'll be able to tell you where >> you can buy braille paper in the area. Their phone number is 202-454-6400 >> >> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Mike Gilmore >> wrote: >> >>> Good afternoon. >>> >>> This question is out of leftfield and probably not the sort that usually >>> appears on the list; anyway, here it is. >>> >>> In the northern Virginia area (specifically, D.C. metro), where can I >>> purchase braille paper? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie%40mpmail.net From angie at mpmail.net Fri Feb 6 20:55:45 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:55:45 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U .S.C. �� 121 In-Reply-To: <005f01c98870$c6708f70$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: It=20seems=20to=20me=20that=20Sec.=20107=20would=20permit=20the=20reproduc= tion=20of=20the=20book=20in=20mp3=20format=20for=20the=20personal=20use=20= of=20the=20owner: =A7107.=20=20=20Limitations=20on=20exclusive=20rights:=20Fair=20use Notwithstanding=20the=20provisions=20of=20sections=20106=20and=20106A,=20t= he=20fair=20use=20of=20a=20copyrighted=20work,=20including=20such=20use=20= by=20reproduction=20in=20copies=20or=20phonorecords=20or=20by=20any=20othe= r=20means=20specified=20by=20that=20section,=20for=20purposes=20such=20as=20= criticism,=20comment,=20 news=20reporting,=20teaching=20(including=20multiple=20copies=20for=20clas= sroom=20use),=20scholarship,=20or=20research,=20is=20not=20an=20infringeme= nt=20of=20copyright.=20In=20determining=20whether=20the=20use=20made=20of=20= a=20work=20in=20any=20particular=20case=20is=20a=20fair=20use=20the=20fact= ors=20to=20be=20considered=20shall=20 include=20=14 (1)=09the=20purpose=20and=20character=20of=20the=20use,=20including=20whet= her=20such=20use=20is=20of=20a=20commercial=20nature=20or=20is=20for=20non= profit=20educational=20purposes; (2)=09the=20nature=20of=20the=20copyrighted=20work; (3)=09the=20amount=20and=20substantiality=20of=20the=20portion=20used=20in= =20relation=20to=20the=20copyrighted=20work=20as=20a=20whole;=20and (4)=09the=20effect=20of=20the=20use=20upon=20the=20potential=20market=20fo= r=20or=20value=20of=20the=20copyrighted=20work. The=20fact=20that=20a=20work=20is=20unpublished=20shall=20not=20itself=20b= ar=20a=20finding=20of=20fair=20use=20if=20such=20finding=20is=20made=20upo= n=20consideration=20of=20all=20the=20above=20factors. True--you're=20not=20contemplating=20using=20the=20book=20for=20an=20educa= tional=20purpose.=20But=20assuming=20you=20aren't=20distributing=20the=20r= esulting=20mp3,=20there's=20absolutely=20no=20effect=20on=20the=20market,=20= and=20I=20believe=20you=20could=20make=20a=20good=20case=20that=20the=20pu= rpose=20and=20character=20 of=20the=20use=20(making=20the=20book=20accessible)=20is=20something=20tha= t=20should=20be=20supported=20by=20public=20policy. Angie From everett at zufelt.ca Fri Feb 6 22:00:13 2009 From: everett at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 18:00:13 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19DB246D-1387-43AC-8770-D5848F54D5E4@zufelt.ca> Good evening, I doubt that by rejecting the amendment that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired American's are unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it is likely isn't the best idea. Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be replaced with something better, but the current system at the current funding level isn't working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press release. Everett On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews ) wrote: > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > CONTACT: > Chris Danielsen > Director of Public Relations > National Federation of the Blind > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment > > Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding > > Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President > of the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest > organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The > purpose of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 > currently being debated in the United States Senate is to reduce > unemployment and to restore economic security for all Americans. In > order to accomplish this goal for Americans who are blind or have > other disabilities, state vocational rehabilitation programs must be > adequately funded. The National Federation of the Blind urges all > members of the United States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins > Amendment and retain the $500 million currently allocated for > vocational rehabilitation. By doing so, the Senate will ensure that > all Americans have the training needed to work and contribute to > this nation's economic prosperity." > > # # # > > > About the National Federation of the Blind > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind > is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind > people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives > through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs > encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading > force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's > blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of > the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center > in the United States for the blind led by the blind. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zufelt.ca From cdanielsen8 at aol.com Fri Feb 6 22:52:32 2009 From: cdanielsen8 at aol.com (Chris Danielsen) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 17:52:32 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment In-Reply-To: <19DB246D-1387-43AC-8770-D5848F54D5E4@zufelt.ca> Message-ID: Hi Everett, The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational rehabilitation agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and most are probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting what services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where the services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason that those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that we shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway is like saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet mignon you will pass on bread and water. I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like the language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really curious about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. Chris -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment Good evening, I doubt that by rejecting the amendment that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired American's are unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it is likely isn't the best idea. Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be replaced with something better, but the current system at the current funding level isn't working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press release. Everett On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews ) wrote: > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > CONTACT: > Chris Danielsen > Director of Public Relations > National Federation of the Blind > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment > > Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding > > Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of > the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest > organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose > of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being > debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to > restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish > this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, > state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. > The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United > States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the > $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By > doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training > needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." > > # # # > > > About the National Federation of the Blind > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is > the largest and most influential membership organization of blind > people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives > through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs > encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force > in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In > January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind > Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the > United States for the blind led by the blind. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu > felt.ca _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3834 (20090206) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3834 (20090206) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From everett at zufelt.ca Fri Feb 6 23:30:40 2009 From: everett at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:30:40 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good evening Chris, > "By doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the > training > needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." Statements like the above are what I dislike. It is simply incorrect, by doing so the senate will be keeping things the way they are, the certainly will not be ensuring that "all" of anyone will be able to do anything. Thanks, Everett On 6-Feb-09, at 6:52 PM, Chris Danielsen wrote: >> By >> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training >> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity. From Ronza.Othman at dhs.gov Sat Feb 7 00:01:25 2009 From: Ronza.Othman at dhs.gov (Othman, Ronza) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:01:25 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Vacancy Announcement - Director for Review and Compliance Message-ID: <74096FB4D17ADA49A21F9BED9B9A33D8DCFA66@ZAU1UG-0308.DHSNET.DS1.DHS> Ronza M. Othman, Esq. Policy Advisor Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties U.S. Department of Homeland Security 202-357-8517 ronza.othman at dhs.gov www.dhs.gov/civilliberties ________________________________ From: Amendolia, Deana Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:26 PM To: Allen, Elizabeth; Arora, Junish; Aziz, Sahar; Bennett, Maurice; Blackford, Candice; Bonanno, Natalie; Brown, Lawanda; Burke, George; Cantrell, Tanya; Cates, Veronica; Clark, Tracy R; Coats, Alinda ; Courtwright-Rodriguez, Susan; Crawley, Ayn; Davis, Tenedia; Dentzer, Ann Marie; Eng, Katherine; Fenlason, Janice ; Floyd, Nicshan; Fresh, Linda ; Friedman, Bruce; Fulmer, Debbie; Gersten, David; Gianlorenzo, Nancy; Glah, Janeen ; Gordon, Claudia; Gustafson, John; Hill, Tonya ; Hoffman, Allen; Hosaka, Keli ; Johnson, Beverly; Jones, Glenita ; Keefer, Timothy; Khoury, Cyrena; Konieczny, Matt; Lamb, Chad ; Lane, Kathleen; Levinson, Stephen M; Lewis, Lawrence; Lilly, Sara; Littlepage, Alison M.; Mayi, Jackie; McGoldrick, Mary; McKenney, William; McNeely, James; Murphy, Moreen; Newton, John; Oliver, Nicole ; Oscar Toledo; Othman, Ronza; Palmer, David; Parker, Erika; Parsons, Brian; Peterson, Bill; Prentice, Vincent ; Presswalla, Jenny; Reyes, Ivelisse; Robinson, Norman B; Ross, Michelle; Saeed, Irfan; Salvano-Dunn, Dana; Schaefer, Margaret; Selim, George; Shah, Rajiv; Shih, Stephen; Sim, John; Skinner, Timothy; Smith, Alice A; Smith, Joi ; Solomon, Stephanie ; Speight, Renita; Stewart, Jeffrey; Sutherland, Daniel; Sweezy, Sharon; Thompson, John K; Tosado, Rebekah; Walton, Kenneth; Wilson, Kathleen; Wong, Annie; Young, Chrystal R.; Zafar, Shaarik; 'Mason, James'; Scherr, Carla Subject: Vacancy Announcement - Director for Review and Compliance Review and Compliance has an opening for a Director for Review and Compliance posted on USAJobs. The vacancy announcement number is 237552 and closes on February 19th. Applications will be accepted from current or former Federal employees with competitive status or eligibility for competitive service appointments; displaced Federal employees requesting priority consideration under the Interagency Career Transition Assistance Program (ICTAP); veterans who are preference eligible or who have been separated under honorable conditions after 3 years or more of continuous service; and individuals with disability. Please forward to anyone who may be eligible and interested. Kind regards, Deana H. Amendolia Department of Homeland Security Office for Civil Rights & Civil Liberties (202)357-8451 Phone (202)380-8794 Mobile (202)357-8296 Fax From sayotte at tbase.com Sat Feb 7 00:13:06 2009 From: sayotte at tbase.com (Sharlyn Ayotte) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:13:06 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper In-Reply-To: <20090206235834.C3D544FDC002@mail.tbase.com> Message-ID: <20090207001339.56F3F4FDC002@mail.tbase.com> Isn't shipping of braille paper free when it goes via USPS? Sharlyn -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Angie Matney Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:43 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper Hi Mike and all, I think that the NFB has the best price on tractor-feed paper. I believe it's $30 for a box of 1000 sheets, plus $14 shipping. Should get to you pretty quickly, given your location. Angie _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sayotte%40tbase.co m From angie at mpmail.net Sat Feb 7 00:55:28 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 19:55:28 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper In-Reply-To: <20090207001339.56F3F4FDC002@mail.tbase.com> Message-ID: You might be able to ship it free matter. I don't know. I just know that $14 was listed on the NFB site. Even so, it was cheaper than paper from other sites. Angie On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:13:06 -0500, Sharlyn Ayotte wrote: >Isn't shipping of braille paper free when it goes via USPS? >Sharlyn >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Angie Matney >Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:43 PM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper >Hi Mike and all, >I think that the NFB has the best price on tractor-feed paper. I believe >it's $30 for a box of 1000 sheets, plus $14 shipping. Should get to you >pretty quickly, given your location. >Angie >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sayotte%40tbase.co >m >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie%40mpmail.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 7 01:57:49 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 17:57:49 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a legislative action center where members and supporters could send emails or faxes to legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up I attempted to contact the offices of Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. As my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the organization is showing appreciation of the members continued involvement and support on such issues. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Danielsen" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > Hi Everett, > > The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the > Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational > rehabilitation > agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and most > are > probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting what > services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where the > services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason that > those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that we > shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway is > like > saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet > mignon > you will pass on bread and water. > > I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like the > language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the > policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really curious > about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind > RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > Good evening, > > I doubt that by rejecting the amendment > that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. > Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired American's > are > unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it is > likely isn't the best idea. > > Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be replaced > with > something better, but the current system at the current funding level > isn't > working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press > release. > > Everett > > On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews > >) wrote: > >> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >> >> CONTACT: >> Chris Danielsen >> Director of Public Relations >> National Federation of the Blind >> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >> cdanielsen at nfb.org >> >> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >> >> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of >> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose >> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being >> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training >> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >> >> # # # >> >> >> About the National Federation of the Blind >> >> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force >> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In >> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >> United States for the blind led by the blind. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >> felt.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. > com > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature > database 3834 (20090206) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature > database 3834 (20090206) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From roddj12 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 7 02:07:50 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:07:50 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] =?windows-1252?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_?= =?windows-1252?q?U=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com><006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server><7556b95a0902060749l362a9fa1h3711503c88de03f7@mail.gmail.com><007101c9889a$66795aa0$6601a8c0@server> <7556b95a0902061239x3859f664me93cad9b4a35ee7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: How can you reproduce a book yourself in an accessible format if not by using a copyrighted book? I think what's been said here is that if you scan a book for your own use, per se this is not a copyright violation; however, if you scan a book and give a copy of that electronic file to all of your friends, then it becomes a violation because in this case it would not have been solely for your own use. It doesn't matter that you did not receive compensation, sharing of copyrighted materials is illegal. As been pointed out, if you wish to sell the book, you must destroy the electronic copy you scanned. There is an argument that you are not even permitted to give that electronic copy to another blind person because you are not a "not for profit organization" authorized to do that. In other words, what's considered copyrighted is the actual book, not the electronic version. Because you went and scanned it and made it accessible, does not turn it into your property. In other words, you still own only one copy of the book, not two. If you really want to get down with this, one can even argue that the electronic text has to always accompany the actual hard copy of the book, but this would go to the extreme and it clearly gets ridiculous beyond that. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 That would be true, but I was refering to a book that you yourself produced in an alternative format. On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hello, > What you have presented is your interpretation of what common sense tells > you the statute must mean. Unfortunately, with statutes, we are stuck > with > the exact language of the statute, and court opinions which have > interpreted > the meaning of the statute. As a lawyer you could make this argument to a > court, but the reality is that the statute does not specifically say what > you are reading into it. Consequently, you would need to find a federal > court opinion which presents your view, and I am not aware of one which > does. > > The Chafee amendment specifies that only nonprofit entities that produce > books in alternative formats for the blind may distribute them. It does > not > say that a blind person who has received a copyrighted work in an > alternative format from an authorized entity, may himself distribute his > copy to anyone else who is also blind, even when he does not retain any > copies. This argument suggests that a slight twist on the first sale > doctrine is present in the Chafee amendment, but I am not aware of any > source to support this idea. The first sale doctrine is what permits you > to > resell or give away a patented or copyrighted product which you purchased. > Without the first sale doctrine, you would never be able to resell a > copyrighted or patented product which you legitimately purchased, because > selling a copyrighted or patented product when you do not own the > intellectual property rights is the very definition of infringement. > > My legal advice based on a strict reading of the Chafee amendment to a > client who wishes to give a Braille book produced by a nonprofit entity, > is > that they should return the Braille book to the nonprofit entity which > originally produced it, along with instructions to ship the Braille book > to > the other blind party. The reason for the nonprofit to be the decider of > who should receive books in alternative formats, is that they have > established procedures in place to determine who is actually blind or > reading disabled, and therefore authorized to receive materials in > alternative formats. > > The blind owner of the book we are discussing has no medical documentation > to know for a fact that the party he is giving the Braille book to is > actually reading disabled. The recipient for example could be sighted, > and > then scan the Braille book into a computer using software which will > convert > grade 2 Braille into an electronic file, and then use that file to print > out > illegal copies of the copyrighted work in print. Seems like a lot of > work, > but it could be done, and this is what the law is attempting to prevent. > > Moreover, if the Chafee amendment permits us to redistribute books in > alternative formats for use by the blind so long as we do not retain a > copy > for ourselves, we could redistribute Bookshare and RFB books without > violating the copyright act. We would of course be violating our > membership > agreement with Bookshare and RFB, but that is a question of contract law, > not copyright law. Clearly Bookshare and RFB believe this would violate > the > Chafee amendment and that is why their membership agreement prohibits us > from giving copies of books obtained from them to other blind people. > > Copyright law presents interesting questions. > > Regards, > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:49 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > I think that the main point in this, like all copyright cases, is > complete relinquishment of the material. If you give the modified > materialto another student and relinquish your right to the material > (you don't keep any copy, digital or otherwise) it's completely legal. > Same as if I sold a CD I had not ripped to someone else. > > On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: >> Hello, >> Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another >> student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the >> thermoforming >> of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to >> prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in >> redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about >> copyright >> infringement? >> Dennis >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Pepper" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 >> >> >> Here is the law: >> (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section >> 106, >> it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to >> reproduce >> or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, >> nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced >> or >> distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other >> persons with disabilities. >> (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) >> not >> be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format >> exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; >> (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a >> format >> other than a specialized format is an infringement; and >> (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the >> date >> of the original publication. >> (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, >> secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to >> computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional >> human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed >> to >> users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com From roddj12 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 7 02:13:07 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:13:07 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] =?windows-1252?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_?= =?windows-1252?q?U=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com><006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server><7556b95a0902060749l362a9fa1h3711503c88de03f7@mail.gmail.com> <007101c9889a$66795aa0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: Dennis is right on point! I wouldnt have even written a response if I had seen his first. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 Hello, What you have presented is your interpretation of what common sense tells you the statute must mean. Unfortunately, with statutes, we are stuck with the exact language of the statute, and court opinions which have interpreted the meaning of the statute. As a lawyer you could make this argument to a court, but the reality is that the statute does not specifically say what you are reading into it. Consequently, you would need to find a federal court opinion which presents your view, and I am not aware of one which does. The Chafee amendment specifies that only nonprofit entities that produce books in alternative formats for the blind may distribute them. It does not say that a blind person who has received a copyrighted work in an alternative format from an authorized entity, may himself distribute his copy to anyone else who is also blind, even when he does not retain any copies. This argument suggests that a slight twist on the first sale doctrine is present in the Chafee amendment, but I am not aware of any source to support this idea. The first sale doctrine is what permits you to resell or give away a patented or copyrighted product which you purchased. Without the first sale doctrine, you would never be able to resell a copyrighted or patented product which you legitimately purchased, because selling a copyrighted or patented product when you do not own the intellectual property rights is the very definition of infringement. My legal advice based on a strict reading of the Chafee amendment to a client who wishes to give a Braille book produced by a nonprofit entity, is that they should return the Braille book to the nonprofit entity which originally produced it, along with instructions to ship the Braille book to the other blind party. The reason for the nonprofit to be the decider of who should receive books in alternative formats, is that they have established procedures in place to determine who is actually blind or reading disabled, and therefore authorized to receive materials in alternative formats. The blind owner of the book we are discussing has no medical documentation to know for a fact that the party he is giving the Braille book to is actually reading disabled. The recipient for example could be sighted, and then scan the Braille book into a computer using software which will convert grade 2 Braille into an electronic file, and then use that file to print out illegal copies of the copyrighted work in print. Seems like a lot of work, but it could be done, and this is what the law is attempting to prevent. Moreover, if the Chafee amendment permits us to redistribute books in alternative formats for use by the blind so long as we do not retain a copy for ourselves, we could redistribute Bookshare and RFB books without violating the copyright act. We would of course be violating our membership agreement with Bookshare and RFB, but that is a question of contract law, not copyright law. Clearly Bookshare and RFB believe this would violate the Chafee amendment and that is why their membership agreement prohibits us from giving copies of books obtained from them to other blind people. Copyright law presents interesting questions. Regards, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:49 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 I think that the main point in this, like all copyright cases, is complete relinquishment of the material. If you give the modified materialto another student and relinquish your right to the material (you don't keep any copy, digital or otherwise) it's completely legal. Same as if I sold a CD I had not ripped to someone else. On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hello, > Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another > student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the thermoforming > of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to > prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in > redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about > copyright > infringement? > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > Here is the law: > (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section > 106, > it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to > reproduce > or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, > nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or > distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other > persons with disabilities. > (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) > not > be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format > exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; > (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a > format > other than a specialized format is an infringement; and > (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the > date > of the original publication. > (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, > secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to > computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional > human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed > to > users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com From roddj12 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 7 02:18:17 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:18:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper References: <20090207001339.56F3F4FDC002@mail.tbase.com> Message-ID: Braille paper is the name given to the paper. It is not that specialized. Without Braille written on them like a Braille book, I don't know how you can legally ship it as free matter. In fact, if it is being shipped for commercial purposes, I don't even think it can be done free matter. I haven't researched that last point yet. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharlyn Ayotte" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Braille Paper > Isn't shipping of braille paper free when it goes via USPS? > Sharlyn > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Angie Matney > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:43 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] Braille Paper > > Hi Mike and all, > > I think that the NFB has the best price on tractor-feed paper. I believe > it's $30 for a box of 1000 sheets, plus $14 shipping. Should get to you > pretty quickly, given your location. > > Angie > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sayotte%40tbase.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > From chatter8712 at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 02:27:34 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 21:27:34 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] =?iso-8859-1?q?Accessible_legislation/law_beyond_17_U?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2ES=2EC=2E_=A7_121?= In-Reply-To: References: <20090204.092813.4428.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <006301c98872$4f3989f0$6601a8c0@server> <7556b95a0902060749l362a9fa1h3711503c88de03f7@mail.gmail.com> <007101c9889a$66795aa0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902061827g4810d2efw4d771c0ef3acc82c@mail.gmail.com> I was fully aware of what you stated; that was the basis on which I was writing my responses. On 2/6/09, Rod Alcidonis wrote: > Dennis is right on point! I wouldnt have even written a response if I had > seen his first. > > > Rod Alcidonis > Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. > Roger Williams University School of Law > 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 > Bristol, RI 02809 > Cell: 718-704-4651 > Home: 401-824-8685 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:35 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > Hello, > What you have presented is your interpretation of what common sense tells > you the statute must mean. Unfortunately, with statutes, we are stuck with > the exact language of the statute, and court opinions which have interpreted > the meaning of the statute. As a lawyer you could make this argument to a > court, but the reality is that the statute does not specifically say what > you are reading into it. Consequently, you would need to find a federal > court opinion which presents your view, and I am not aware of one which > does. > > The Chafee amendment specifies that only nonprofit entities that produce > books in alternative formats for the blind may distribute them. It does not > say that a blind person who has received a copyrighted work in an > alternative format from an authorized entity, may himself distribute his > copy to anyone else who is also blind, even when he does not retain any > copies. This argument suggests that a slight twist on the first sale > doctrine is present in the Chafee amendment, but I am not aware of any > source to support this idea. The first sale doctrine is what permits you to > resell or give away a patented or copyrighted product which you purchased. > Without the first sale doctrine, you would never be able to resell a > copyrighted or patented product which you legitimately purchased, because > selling a copyrighted or patented product when you do not own the > intellectual property rights is the very definition of infringement. > > My legal advice based on a strict reading of the Chafee amendment to a > client who wishes to give a Braille book produced by a nonprofit entity, is > that they should return the Braille book to the nonprofit entity which > originally produced it, along with instructions to ship the Braille book to > the other blind party. The reason for the nonprofit to be the decider of > who should receive books in alternative formats, is that they have > established procedures in place to determine who is actually blind or > reading disabled, and therefore authorized to receive materials in > alternative formats. > > The blind owner of the book we are discussing has no medical documentation > to know for a fact that the party he is giving the Braille book to is > actually reading disabled. The recipient for example could be sighted, and > then scan the Braille book into a computer using software which will convert > grade 2 Braille into an electronic file, and then use that file to print out > illegal copies of the copyrighted work in print. Seems like a lot of work, > but it could be done, and this is what the law is attempting to prevent. > > Moreover, if the Chafee amendment permits us to redistribute books in > alternative formats for use by the blind so long as we do not retain a copy > for ourselves, we could redistribute Bookshare and RFB books without > violating the copyright act. We would of course be violating our membership > agreement with Bookshare and RFB, but that is a question of contract law, > not copyright law. Clearly Bookshare and RFB believe this would violate the > Chafee amendment and that is why their membership agreement prohibits us > from giving copies of books obtained from them to other blind people. > > Copyright law presents interesting questions. > > Regards, > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:49 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 > > > I think that the main point in this, like all copyright cases, is > complete relinquishment of the material. If you give the modified > materialto another student and relinquish your right to the material > (you don't keep any copy, digital or otherwise) it's completely legal. > Same as if I sold a CD I had not ripped to someone else. > > On 2/6/09, Dennis Clark wrote: >> Hello, >> Does this mean that I can not give my Braille calculus book to another >> student, or sell it to him for the same price I paid for the thermoforming >> of the book? A strict reading of the Chafee amendment would appear to >> prohibit this. The NFB is setting up a website to assist us in >> redistributing our Braille books to others. Should we worry about >> copyright >> infringement? >> Dennis >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Pepper" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw]Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. § 121 >> >> >> Here is the law: >> (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section >> 106, >> it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to >> reproduce >> or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, >> nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or >> distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other >> persons with disabilities. >> (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) >> not >> be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format >> exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; >> (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a >> format >> other than a specialized format is an infringement; and >> (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the >> date >> of the original publication. >> (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, >> secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to >> computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional >> human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed >> to >> users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Sat Feb 7 18:03:12 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 11:03:12 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment References: Message-ID: That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a legislative >action center where members and supporters could send emails or faxes to >legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up I attempted to >contact the offices of > Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. As > my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have > time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when > legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to > prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an > organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the > organization is showing appreciation of the members continued involvement > and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the > BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation >> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and most >> are >> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >> what >> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where the >> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason that >> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that we >> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway is >> like >> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >> mignon >> you will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like the >> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >> curious >> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired American's >> are >> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it is >> likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be replaced >> with >> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >> isn't >> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press >> release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of >>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose >>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being >>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training >>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force >>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In >>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 19:34:11 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 13:34:11 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 In-Reply-To: <20090206.092701.4008.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090206.092701.4008.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Here is the law: Here is the law: (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities. (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) not be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a format other than a specialized format is an infringement; and (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the date of the original publication. (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed to users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. Thsi only applies to non dramatical works. Tom Clancy is a dramatic work, so you either take what the publisher, owner of the content publishes or you can not read his book. He does not have to sell you a thing! And you have no right to take his work without permission. James On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > Mr. Pepper, > > I respectfully disagree. What I have described vis-a-vis the Tom Clancy > book is really just format shifting of an item that I own, i.e., the > book. (I agree Tom Clancy or whoever continues to own the copyright.) > However, format-shifting - that is, taking content you own in one format > and putting it into another format, for personal, use, is considered fair > use. I base this on 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player > decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Circ. > 1999). > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:04:15 -0600 James Pepper writes: > > No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a > > literary work > > and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical book > > you > > would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you just > > stole > > his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way you do > > not > > aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his > > copyright. Oh > > and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to > > enforcement > > of Tom Clancy books! > > > > James Pepper > > > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > > wrote: > > > > > I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a > > bit of > > > research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > > > > > > Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I > > purchased > > > the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut > > it up, > > > run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After > > it's > > > was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a > > voice > > > format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. > > Since > > > it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired > > legally, > > > I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I > > understand > > > that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other > > > countries, i.e. Australia.) > > > > > > Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the > > copy > > > right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this > > thread. > > > > > > Patrick H. Stiehm > > > Stiehm Law Office > > > Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews > > > > > writes: > > > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > > > reading services, and information access services > > > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the > > realization of > > > > how > > > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright > > protection > > > > is. > > > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > > > > rather > > > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a > > broader > > > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > > > > paperback, > > > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > > > > document. > > > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to > > a > > > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > > > format > > > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > > > > Clancy > > > > >book. > > > > > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with > > it I > > > > then > > > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. > > Is > > > > there > > > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files > > for > > > > people to > > > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I > > simply > > > > put it > > > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my > > charging > > > > for > > > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright > > area > > > > that > > > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should > > all > > > > find > > > > >this of interest. > > > > > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > > > >Stiehm Law Office > > > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > > > > needs now. > > > > > > > > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV > > > eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >blindlaw mailing list > > > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis > > > i.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info > > > > for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > > > no.com > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. > > > > > > > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBr > Z5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. > com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Click now for prescreened plumbing contractors. > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4DnEW1a0xT6OGF80cBnxexk1PhMOwvk4Xzb1KIzR6w80hZ1/ > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From chatter8712 at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 19:53:48 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 14:53:48 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 In-Reply-To: References: <20090206.092701.4008.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902071153g5688a8e7p2fffe49a2fd0a544@mail.gmail.com> Dramatic means plays, not fiction. On 2/7/09, James Pepper wrote: > Here is the law: > Here is the law: > (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement > of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute copies > or phonorecords of a previously published, nondramatic literary work if such > copies or phonorecords are reproduced or distributed in specialized formats > exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities. > (b) > (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— > (A) not be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized > format exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; > (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a format > other than a specialized format is an infringement; and > (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the date > of the original publication. > (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, > secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to > computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional > human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed to > users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. > > Thsi only applies to non dramatical works. Tom Clancy is a dramatic work, > so you either take what the publisher, owner of the content publishes or you > can not read his book. He does not have to sell you a thing! And you have > no right to take his work without permission. > > James > > On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > wrote: > >> Mr. Pepper, >> >> I respectfully disagree. What I have described vis-a-vis the Tom Clancy >> book is really just format shifting of an item that I own, i.e., the >> book. (I agree Tom Clancy or whoever continues to own the copyright.) >> However, format-shifting - that is, taking content you own in one format >> and putting it into another format, for personal, use, is considered fair >> use. I base this on 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player >> decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Circ. >> 1999). >> >> Patrick H. Stiehm >> Stiehm Law Office >> Alexandria, VA 22309 >> 703-360-1089 (Voice) >> 703-935-8266 (Fax) >> >> >> On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:04:15 -0600 James Pepper writes: >> > No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a >> > literary work >> > and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical book >> > you >> > would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you just >> > stole >> > his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way you do >> > not >> > aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his >> > copyright. Oh >> > and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to >> > enforcement >> > of Tom Clancy books! >> > >> > James Pepper >> > >> > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm >> > wrote: >> > >> > > I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a >> > bit of >> > > research and as a result here is what I have concluded. >> > > >> > > Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I >> > purchased >> > > the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut >> > it up, >> > > run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After >> > it's >> > > was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a >> > voice >> > > format. I then listened to the book in that recorded >> > > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. >> > Since >> > > it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired >> > legally, >> > > I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I >> > understand >> > > that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other >> > > countries, i.e. Australia.) >> > > >> > > Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the >> > copy >> > > right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this >> > thread. >> > > >> > > Patrick H. Stiehm >> > > Stiehm Law Office >> > > Alexandria, VA 22309 >> > > 703-360-1089 (Voice) >> > > 703-935-8266 (Fax) >> > > >> > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews >> > >> > > writes: >> > > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio >> > > > reading services, and information access services >> > > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your >> > > > first action, making MP3's would be find under >> > > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on >> > > > internet would not be. If you gave him >> > > > the book, you might be able to give him the >> > > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, >> > > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a >> > > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Dave >> > > > >> > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: >> > > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the >> > realization of >> > > > how >> > > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright >> > protection >> > > > is. >> > > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other >> > > > rather >> > > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a >> > broader >> > > > >question of copyright infringement. >> > > > > >> > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in >> > > > paperback, >> > > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF >> > > > document. >> > > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to >> > a >> > > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded >> > > > format >> > > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom >> > > > Clancy >> > > > >book. >> > > > > >> > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with >> > it I >> > > > then >> > > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. >> > Is >> > > > there >> > > > >a copyright violation at that point. >> > > > > >> > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files >> > for >> > > > people to >> > > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I >> > simply >> > > > put it >> > > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my >> > charging >> > > > for >> > > > >it. Is there a violation? >> > > > > >> > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright >> > area >> > > > that >> > > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should >> > all >> > > > find >> > > > >this of interest. >> > > > > >> > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm >> > > > >Stiehm Law Office >> > > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 >> > > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) >> > > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) >> > > > >____________________________________________________________ >> > > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household >> > > > needs now. >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV >> > > eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ >> > > > > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >> > > > >blindlaw mailing list >> > > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >> > > > >your account info for blindlaw: >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis >> > > i.com >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >> > > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> > > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: >> > > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > blindlaw mailing list >> > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > info >> > > > for blindlaw: >> > > > >> > > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >> > > no.com >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ____________________________________________________________ >> > > Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. >> > > >> > > >> > >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBr >> Z5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > blindlaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > > blindlaw: >> > > >> > > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. >> com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for blindlaw: >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >> no.com >> > >> > >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Click now for prescreened plumbing contractors. >> >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4DnEW1a0xT6OGF80cBnxexk1PhMOwvk4Xzb1KIzR6w80hZ1/ >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From jsorozco at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 20:02:18 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 15:02:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The system is called Convio, the same system that has been powering the March for Independence operation. I volunteered to build the legislative advocacy component for John Paré two years ago and was told there were other priorities ahead of this innovation. I hope the renewed request receives action this time, because it would indeed be a substantial improvement to our grassroots network. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 1:03 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >legislative action center where members and supporters could send >emails or faxes to legislators on issues such as this. Today when this >came up I attempted to contact the offices of Senators Boxer and >Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. As my time is >valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have time to >respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when legislative >offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to prepare >emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an >organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the >organization is showing appreciation of the members continued >involvement and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the >BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some >> are awful, and most are probably somewhere in between. But many of >> them are currently cutting what services they do offer because of the >> economy. Even in states where the services blind people receive are >> not the best, it stands to reason that those services will not >> improve if they are cut further. Saying that we shouldn't fight the >> amendment because the services are lousy anyway is like saying you're >> starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet mignon you >> will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like >> the language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or >> the policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm >> really curious about what it is specifically about the language that >> you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment that all Americans will have >> the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >> American's are unemployed under the current system then leaving the >> system the way it is likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be >> replaced with something better, but the current system at the current >> funding level isn't working. I really dislike the language used in >> almost every NFB press release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President >>> of the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The >>> purpose of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 >>> currently being debated in the United States Senate is to reduce >>> unemployment and to restore economic security for all Americans. In >>> order to accomplish this goal for Americans who are blind or have >>> other disabilities, state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the >>> training needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>> is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading >>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's >>> blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of >>> the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center >>> in the United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40 >>> zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40l > abarrelaw.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om From roddj12 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 7 20:12:51 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 15:12:51 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 References: <20090206.092701.4008.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: Well, no mp3s. Authorized entity, not person. However, a successful argument can be made that by virtue of being blind, you are authorized to make the thing accessible once you comply with the copyright laws. An entity can be a person depending on how you frame the argument. This is more of a public policy argument. 1. person is not violating the law because he/she is blind and and the document is being converted into a specialized format, not a mass reproduction. 2. Author is not making the document accessible to the blind person despite the availability of the technology to do so. 3. A not-for-profit agency is allowed by law to make the work accessible just like the blind person would. 4. IT takes forever for this to happen. and Agencies don't do that for all books. 5. As a matter of public policy, the term "entity" should be interpreted to include persons whom the statute was enacted to protect, providing that such persons are complying with the law. It should be allowed for reasons x, y, z by citing persuasive data to show the need to encourage literacy among blind folks, and that the current interpretation of "entity" has the effect of discouraging that progress. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 Here is the law: Here is the law: (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute copies or phonorecords of a previously published, nondramatic literary work if such copies or phonorecords are reproduced or distributed in specialized formats exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities. (b) (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— (A) not be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a specialized format exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities; (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a format other than a specialized format is an infringement; and (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and the date of the original publication. (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to standardized, secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or to computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in conventional human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and displayed to users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. Thsi only applies to non dramatical works. Tom Clancy is a dramatic work, so you either take what the publisher, owner of the content publishes or you can not read his book. He does not have to sell you a thing! And you have no right to take his work without permission. James On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > Mr. Pepper, > > I respectfully disagree. What I have described vis-a-vis the Tom Clancy > book is really just format shifting of an item that I own, i.e., the > book. (I agree Tom Clancy or whoever continues to own the copyright.) > However, format-shifting - that is, taking content you own in one format > and putting it into another format, for personal, use, is considered fair > use. I base this on 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player > decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Circ. > 1999). > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:04:15 -0600 James Pepper writes: > > No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a > > literary work > > and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical book > > you > > would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you just > > stole > > his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way you do > > not > > aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his > > copyright. Oh > > and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to > > enforcement > > of Tom Clancy books! > > > > James Pepper > > > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > > wrote: > > > > > I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a > > bit of > > > research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > > > > > > Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I > > purchased > > > the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut > > it up, > > > run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After > > it's > > > was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a > > voice > > > format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. > > Since > > > it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired > > legally, > > > I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I > > understand > > > that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other > > > countries, i.e. Australia.) > > > > > > Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the > > copy > > > right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this > > thread. > > > > > > Patrick H. Stiehm > > > Stiehm Law Office > > > Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews > > > > > writes: > > > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > > > reading services, and information access services > > > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the > > realization of > > > > how > > > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright > > protection > > > > is. > > > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > > > > rather > > > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a > > broader > > > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > > > > paperback, > > > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > > > > document. > > > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to > > a > > > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > > > format > > > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > > > > Clancy > > > > >book. > > > > > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with > > it I > > > > then > > > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. > > Is > > > > there > > > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files > > for > > > > people to > > > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I > > simply > > > > put it > > > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my > > charging > > > > for > > > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright > > area > > > > that > > > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should > > all > > > > find > > > > >this of interest. > > > > > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > > > >Stiehm Law Office > > > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > > > > needs now. > > > > > > > > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV > > > eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >blindlaw mailing list > > > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis > > > i.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info > > > > for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > > > no.com > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. > > > > > > > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBr > Z5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. > com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Click now for prescreened plumbing contractors. > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4DnEW1a0xT6OGF80cBnxexk1PhMOwvk4Xzb1KIzR6w80hZ1/ > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 7 20:44:14 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 12:44:14 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I recently joined NFB I was surprised that such a system had not been implemented as a means of increasing member participation. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a legislative >action center where members and supporters could send emails or faxes to >legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up I attempted to >contact the offices of > Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. As > my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have > time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when > legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to > prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an > organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the > organization is showing appreciation of the members continued involvement > and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the > BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation >> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and most >> are >> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >> what >> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where the >> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason that >> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that we >> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway is >> like >> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >> mignon >> you will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like the >> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >> curious >> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired American's >> are >> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it is >> likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be replaced >> with >> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >> isn't >> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press >> release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of >>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose >>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being >>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training >>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force >>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In >>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 7 21:29:27 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 13:29:27 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation oftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14AE202FD2524158894603ED929BF14C@spike> this type of reaction is appalling. Actually, there are several systems out there. working as a political and community organizer I don't know of any organization today that would hold this viewpoint. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation oftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment The system is called Convio, the same system that has been powering the March for Independence operation. I volunteered to build the legislative advocacy component for John Paré two years ago and was told there were other priorities ahead of this innovation. I hope the renewed request receives action this time, because it would indeed be a substantial improvement to our grassroots network. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 1:03 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >legislative action center where members and supporters could send >emails or faxes to legislators on issues such as this. Today when this >came up I attempted to contact the offices of Senators Boxer and >Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. As my time is >valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have time to >respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when legislative >offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to prepare >emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an >organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the >organization is showing appreciation of the members continued >involvement and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the >BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some >> are awful, and most are probably somewhere in between. But many of >> them are currently cutting what services they do offer because of the >> economy. Even in states where the services blind people receive are >> not the best, it stands to reason that those services will not >> improve if they are cut further. Saying that we shouldn't fight the >> amendment because the services are lousy anyway is like saying you're >> starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet mignon you >> will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like >> the language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or >> the policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm >> really curious about what it is specifically about the language that >> you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment that all Americans will have >> the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >> American's are unemployed under the current system then leaving the >> system the way it is likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be >> replaced with something better, but the current system at the current >> funding level isn't working. I really dislike the language used in >> almost every NFB press release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President >>> of the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The >>> purpose of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 >>> currently being debated in the United States Senate is to reduce >>> unemployment and to restore economic security for all Americans. In >>> order to accomplish this goal for Americans who are blind or have >>> other disabilities, state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the >>> training needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>> is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading >>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's >>> blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of >>> the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center >>> in the United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40 >>> zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40l > abarrelaw.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From dandrews at visi.com Sun Feb 8 00:13:39 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:13:39 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 In-Reply-To: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: So, should I become a lawyer???!!! At 07:12 AM 2/5/2009, you wrote: >I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a bit of >research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > >Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I purchased >the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut it up, >run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's >was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a voice >format. I then listened to the book in that recorded me to be one. David >My Father always wanted > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. Since >it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired legally, >I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I understand >that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other >countries, i.e. Australia.) > >Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the copy >right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this thread. > >Patrick H. Stiehm >Stiehm Law Office >Alexandria, VA 22309 >703-360-1089 (Voice) >703-935-8266 (Fax) > >On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews >writes: > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > reading services, and information access services > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > Dave > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of > > how > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection > > is. > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > > rather > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > > paperback, > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > > document. > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > format > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > > Clancy > > >book. > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I > > then > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is > > there > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for > > people to > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply > > put it > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging > > for > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area > > that > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all > > find > > >this of interest. > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > >Stiehm Law Office > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > >____________________________________________________________ > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > > needs now. > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV >eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >blindlaw mailing list > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis >i.com > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for blindlaw: > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >no.com > > > > >____________________________________________________________ >Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBrZ5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 04:58:55 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 20:58:55 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> I understand it. Sometimes you have to make decisions about what to do first, even when you want to do it all. You have a finite pool of resources and you must decide how to use them. The problem is that sometimes perspectives get clouded and things slip through the cracks. It's our job to support those making the decisions by making sure that things that need doing get done. Sometimes that means finding additional resources. I'm not sure what I think of the Nelson-Collins amendment, actually. The status quo doesn't work very well, it is true, but I am not sure that a cut in funding will encourage improvement in efficiency for existing VR services. Most likely, funding changes will impact only how many are served at existing levels of VR performance. The thing that should concern the NFB is how to improve VR services. Only after that is known should questions of how to pay for it be asked. Failing to follow this model results in very expensive solutions to problems that do not exist and unresolved problems still in need of a good solution. That said, the change in number of people served by the status quo and more importantly the type of people who will be given priority for service may so impact the population of those who might change the status quo that we will no longer have the resources to make those changes that are needed. Of course, this question looms over the whole "stimulus" package, regardless of what is or isn't going to be in the final version that passes. Joseph On Sat, Feb 07, 2009 at 12:44:14PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > When I recently joined NFB I was surprised that such a system had not > been implemented as a means of increasing member participation. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:03 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of > theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > > > That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can > implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for > people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. > Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs > action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out > there Jim? What say you? > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged > information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, > copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in > error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, > and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments > are covered by the Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins > Amendment > > >> I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >> legislative action center where members and supporters could send >> emails or faxes to legislators on issues such as this. Today when this >> came up I attempted to contact the offices of >> Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. >> As my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I >> have time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when >> legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to >> prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an >> organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the >> organization is showing appreciation of the members continued >> involvement and support on such issues. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Danielsen" >> >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the >> BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> >>> Hi Everett, >>> >>> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >>> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >>> rehabilitation >>> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and >>> most are >>> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >>> what >>> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where the >>> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason that >>> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that we >>> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway >>> is like >>> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >>> mignon >>> you will pass on bread and water. >>> >>> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like the >>> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >>> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >>> curious >>> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >>> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >>> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Good evening, >>> >>> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >>> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >>> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >>> American's are >>> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it is >>> likely isn't the best idea. >>> >>> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be >>> replaced with >>> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >>> isn't >>> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press >>> release. >>> >>> Everett >>> >>> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >>> >> >) wrote: >>> >>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>> >>>> CONTACT: >>>> Chris Danielsen >>>> Director of Public Relations >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>>> >>>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>>> >>>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of >>>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose >>>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being >>>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training >>>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>>> >>>> # # # >>>> >>>> >>>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>>> >>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >>>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force >>>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In >>>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>>> felt.ca >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>> com >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 07:50:03 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 23:50:03 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action to support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When chapter meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications such as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is not really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members and an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many questions have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps the NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it relates to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing legislative information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action by members. This does not preclude the use of information published in Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation and involvement. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >I understand it. Sometimes you have to make decisions about what to do >first, even when you want to do it all. You have a finite pool of >resources and you must decide how to use them. The problem is that >sometimes perspectives get clouded and things slip through the cracks. > > It's our job to support those making the decisions by making sure that > things that need doing get done. Sometimes that means finding additional > resources. > > I'm not sure what I think of the Nelson-Collins amendment, actually. The > status quo doesn't work very well, it is true, but I am not sure that a > cut in funding will encourage improvement in efficiency for existing VR > services. Most likely, funding changes will impact only how many are > served at existing levels of VR performance. The thing that should > concern the NFB is how to improve VR services. Only after that is known > should questions of how to pay for it be asked. > > Failing to follow this model results in very expensive solutions to > problems that do not exist and unresolved problems still in need of a good > solution. > > That said, the change in number of people served by the status quo and > more importantly the type of people who will be given priority for service > may so impact the population of those who might change the status quo that > we will no longer have the resources to make those changes that are > needed. > > Of course, this question looms over the whole "stimulus" package, > regardless of what is or isn't going to be in the final version that > passes. > > Joseph > > > On Sat, Feb 07, 2009 at 12:44:14PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> When I recently joined NFB I was surprised that such a system had not >> been implemented as a means of increasing member participation. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:03 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of >> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >> >> >> That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can >> implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for >> people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way >> up. >> Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs >> action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out >> there Jim? What say you? >> Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. >> >> LaBarre Law Offices P.C. >> 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 >> Denver, Colorado 80222 >> 303 504-5979 (voice) >> 303 757-3640 (fax) >> slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) >> www.labarrelaw.com (website) >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and >> privileged >> information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, >> copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in >> error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or >> slabarre at labarrelaw.com, >> and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any >> attachments >> are covered by the Electronic >> Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of >> theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins >> Amendment >> >> >>> I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >>> legislative action center where members and supporters could send emails >>> or faxes to legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up >>> I attempted to contact the offices of >>> Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. >>> As my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I >>> have time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when >>> legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to >>> prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an >>> organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the >>> organization is showing appreciation of the members continued >>> involvement and support on such issues. >>> Chuck >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Danielsen" >>> >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the >>> BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> >>>> Hi Everett, >>>> >>>> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >>>> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >>>> rehabilitation >>>> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and >>>> most are >>>> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >>>> what >>>> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where the >>>> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason >>>> that >>>> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that we >>>> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway is >>>> like >>>> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >>>> mignon >>>> you will pass on bread and water. >>>> >>>> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like the >>>> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >>>> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >>>> curious >>>> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >>>> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >>>> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >>>> >>>> Good evening, >>>> >>>> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >>>> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >>>> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >>>> American's are >>>> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way it >>>> is >>>> likely isn't the best idea. >>>> >>>> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be replaced >>>> with >>>> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >>>> isn't >>>> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB press >>>> release. >>>> >>>> Everett >>>> >>>> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >>>> >>> >) wrote: >>>> >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> Director of Public Relations >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>>>> >>>>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of >>>>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>>>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The purpose >>>>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently being >>>>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>>>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>>>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>>>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>>>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>>>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>>>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>>>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the training >>>>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>>>> >>>>> # # # >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>>>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>>>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>>>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force >>>>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In >>>>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>>>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>>>> felt.ca >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >>>> com >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 11:23:25 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 03:23:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no less than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email frequently. To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What more could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully volunteered yourself to be that person. *grin* My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to cram legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but this is what we've got. Joseph On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is > methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action to > support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When chapter > meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications such > as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for > timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is not > really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to > light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members and > an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many questions > have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting > funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps the > NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it relates > to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in > mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing legislative > information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most > effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email > alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much > more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the > fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action by > members. This does not preclude the use of information published in > Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation > and involvement. > Chuck From DFrye at nfb.org Mon Feb 9 13:22:26 2009 From: DFrye at nfb.org (Frye, Dan) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 08:22:26 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Congratulations! Legislative Objective Regarding Nelson-Collins Achieved In-Reply-To: <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B5A8A26@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> List Subscribers: I have received the following information regarding the status of the Nelson-Collins amendment that threatened VR funding from a supportive legislative consultant who regularly works with and for the NFB and other allied organizations. Please forgive any duplicate circulation of this material. Her message follows: From: Catriona Macdonald [mailto:Cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com] Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 7:21 AM Subject: STIMULUS UPDATE There's great news... and worrying news. Let's start with the great news - thanks to the hard work of the VR community and its allies, the cuts to the VR state grants that were proposed to be included in the Nelson-Collins Amendment were dropped. That means that on Monday, when the Nelson-Collins amendment is introduced, debated and voted on, and most likely passed, the $500 million increase to VR will remain intact. Absent something very unexpected, that $500 million increase will then be in the House and Senate-passed legislation. That is fabulous news! Thank you to all of you who made phone calls, emailed your Senators, forwarded alert emails, sent out alerts to your own organization's membership, and encouraged your friends to call and email. So what comes next? When the Senate passes its economic recovery legislation, it will probably be in the neighborhood of $800 billion. The House's bill is about $800 billion, too. But within those totals, there are hundreds of billions of dollars of differences between the two pieces of legislation that will have to be reconciled. One bill fixes the Alternative Minimum Tax problem for this year. The other doesn't. One bill gives a $15,000 tax credit to new home buyers. The other doesn't. One bill gives a tax credit to people who buy American-built cars. The other doesn't. The tax policy differences, combined, add up to close to $100 billion. (There are many other funding differences, too - those are just examples!) There will be a lot of pressure to maintain all the tax cuts in both bills. There will also be a lot of pressure to keep the overall package around $800 billion. The only way to do both is - you guessed it - reduce funding for other programs funded in the stimulus legislation. Technically, under the rules, any item that is the same in both the Senate and House-passed legislation (like the $500 million for VR) isn't supposed to be able to be changed in conference. In reality, the rules often go out the window when you're conferencing high profile, critical legislation like this. There's still a possibility of an across-the-board cut that would reduce all non-tax related programs by 5 or 10% in order to fund the tax cuts. Or individual programs could be put back on the chopping block. So if you haven't contacted your Senators and Representatives, it's not too late. Decisions will be made this week about how to put the final stimulus legislation together. Since the phone lines are tied up, it may be easier to email your Senators and Representatives from their websites than to call. Or phone the district office; the phone number will be on the website. You can find their websites at: www.Senate.gov www.House.gov The message we want to send, via phone or email, is: "Please make sure the $500 million for state VR grants is preserved in the final economic recovery legislation." Thank you again for all you do to advocate for people with disabilities. Catriona Macdonald President Linchpin Strategies, LLC *********************** Daniel B. Frye, J.D. Associate Editor The Braille Monitor National Federation of the Blind Office of the President 1800 Johnson Street Baltimore, Maryland 21230 Telephone: (410) 659-9314 Ext. 2208 Mobile: (410) 241-7006 Fax: (410) 685-5653 Email: DFrye at nfb.org Web Address: www.nfb.org "Voice of the Nation's Blind" _______________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 6:23 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no less than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email frequently. To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What more could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully volunteered yourself to be that person. *grin* My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to cram legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but this is what we've got. Joseph On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is > methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action > to support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When > chapter meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and > publications such as the Monitor are published once a month this does > not provide for timely action on the part of members. The > Nelson-Collins Amendment is not really the issue here it was the means > that the broader issue came to light as there was a need for immediate > action to be taken by members and an inadequate method of members to > take such action. While many questions have always been raised > regarding the quality of VR services limiting funds for such services > will not improve them on any account. Perhaps the NFB needs to spend > some time and money on modernizing the way it relates to members and > how effective existing methods of communication are in mobilizing its > members. Is the current method of distributing legislative information > through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most effective > method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email alerts as > is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much more > expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the fact > that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action by > members. This does not preclude the use of information published in > Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation and involvement. > Chuck _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dfrye%40nfb.or g From jsorozco at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 16:29:43 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 11:29:43 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Hello, To be fair, the National Center has begun the era of Web 2.0 as it pertains to youth outreach. I believe it is not enough to establish a presence on a system and believe it is sufficient to automatically expand. One should be strategic about what features are used and what is the end goal for hosting said features in the first place, but staff in Baltimore have recognized the explosion of online communication for what it is. In the case of legislative advocacy, the implementation of an instant alert system is not difficult. A service like Constant Contact would suffice for an e-mail blast to anyone who chooses to subscribe to the alerts. A Twitter account has already been established, and a strategic combination of both these features on top of a blog with RSS feeds could facilitate the person's ability to receive the news as it happens. Unless things have changed, I believe the current alerts only go out to legislative contacts across state affiliates. One only hopes these alerts will be picked up and forwarded to the public list-serves in time to give people the opportunity to act as requested. Now, this is only the notification. Because people are inherently lazy, the web site needs to be configured to facilitate the user's ability to quickly find their representative and senators and then be given the choice to either use a template of the message that needs to go out or generate a personal message of one's own. One should also have the capacity to track changes to pending legislation as is true of the GovTrack service. I disagree with Joseph that we should settle for what we have. Yes, by all means maximize the resources currently available to get the current task completed, but I see nothing wrong with revisiting the point of expansion. National Center staff do in fact have a lot on their plate, and it's easy for us to criticize the things that do not exist because we are not the ones responsible for programming the systems. Yet, it is not so easy to merely volunteer because services like Constant Contact, Sales Force and Convio cost money of the variety only the National Center can put forth. Perhaps there is a midway point members can offer assistance in a way that rhymes with the Center's priorities? Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 6:23 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no less than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email frequently. To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What more could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully volunteered yourself to be that person. *grin* My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to cram legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but this is what we've got. Joseph On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is > methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action > to support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When > chapter meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and > publications such as the Monitor are published once a month this does > not provide for timely action on the part of members. The > Nelson-Collins Amendment is not really the issue here it was the means > that the broader issue came to light as there was a need for immediate > action to be taken by members and an inadequate method of members to > take such action. While many questions have always been raised > regarding the quality of VR services limiting funds for such services > will not improve them on any account. Perhaps the NFB needs to spend > some time and money on modernizing the way it relates to members and > how effective existing methods of communication are in mobilizing its > members. Is the current method of distributing legislative information > through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most effective > method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email alerts as > is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much more > expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the fact > that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action by > members. This does not preclude the use of information published in > Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation and involvement. > Chuck _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 20:06:28 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 12:06:28 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists that I was on it was the first organization to post information about the Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members could have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to those Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web design I have much experience in political and community organizing and in that regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes forward I would be willing to be involved in the process. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no less > than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about > nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email > frequently. > > To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What more > could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has > been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to > step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully volunteered > yourself to be that person. *grin* > > My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there > wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever > action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's > not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to cram > legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of > amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You > don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the > word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but > this is what we've got. > > Joseph > > On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action to >> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When chapter >> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications such >> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is not >> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to >> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members and >> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many questions >> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting >> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps the >> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it relates >> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in >> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing legislative >> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email >> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much >> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the >> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action by >> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation >> and involvement. >> Chuck > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From Ronza.Othman at dhs.gov Mon Feb 9 20:21:23 2009 From: Ronza.Othman at dhs.gov (Othman, Ronza) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 15:21:23 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Vacancy Announcement - Supervisory EEO Specialist (Diversity) Message-ID: <74096FB4D17ADA49A21F9BED9B9A33D8DCFCE4@ZAU1UG-0308.DHSNET.DS1.DHS> Ronza M. Othman, Esq. Policy Advisor Office for Civil Rights & Civil Liberties U.S. Department of Homeland Security (202) 357-8517 ronza.othman at dhs.gov www.dhs.gov/civilliberties ________________________________ From: Amendolia, Deana Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 2:32 PM To: Allen, Elizabeth; Arora, Junish; Aziz, Sahar; Bennett, Maurice; Blackford, Candice; Bonanno, Natalie; Brown, Lawanda; Burke, George; Cantrell, Tanya; Cates, Veronica; Clark, Tracy R; Coats, Alinda ; Courtwright-Rodriguez, Susan; Crawley, Ayn; Davis, Tenedia; Dentzer, Ann Marie; Eng, Katherine; Fenlason, Janice ; Floyd, Nicshan; Fresh, Linda ; Friedman, Bruce; Fulmer, Debbie; Gersten, David; Gianlorenzo, Nancy; Glah, Janeen ; Gordon, Claudia; Gustafson, John; Hill, Tonya ; Hoffman, Allen; Hosaka, Keli ; Johnson, Beverly; Jones, Glenita ; Keefer, Timothy; Khoury, Cyrena; Konieczny, Matt; Lamb, Chad ; Lane, Kathleen; Levinson, Stephen M; Lewis, Lawrence; Lilly, Sara; Littlepage, Alison M.; Mayi, Jackie; McGoldrick, Mary; McKenney, William; McNeely, James; Murphy, Moreen; Newton, John; Oliver, Nicole ; Oscar Toledo; Othman, Ronza; Palmer, David; Parker, Erika; Parsons, Brian; Peterson, Bill; Prentice, Vincent ; Presswalla, Jenny; Reyes, Ivelisse; Robinson, Norman B; Ross, Michelle; Saeed, Irfan; Salvano-Dunn, Dana; Schaefer, Margaret; Selim, George; Shah, Rajiv; Shih, Stephen; Sim, John; Skinner, Timothy; Smith, Alice A; Smith, Joi ; Solomon, Stephanie ; Speight, Renita; Stewart, Jeffrey; Sutherland, Daniel; Sweezy, Sharon; Thompson, John K; Tosado, Rebekah; Walton, Kenneth; Wilson, Kathleen; Wong, Annie; Young, Chrystal R.; Zafar, Shaarik; Mason, James Subject: Vacany Announcement - Supervisory EEO Specialist (Diversity) Importance: High CRCL EEO Programs has an opening for a Supervisory Equal Employment Opportunity Specialist (Diversity) posted on USAJOBS (www.usajobs.gov), vacancy announcement number DHSHQ09-4042 . Posting closes on February 23rd. Please forward to any who may be interested. Kind regards, Deana H. Amendolia Department of Homeland Security Office for Civil Rights & Civil Liberties (202)357-8451 Phone (202)380-8794 Mobile (202)357-8296 Fax From chatter8712 at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 20:50:17 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (chatter8712 at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 15:50:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com> I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a great idea. On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists that I > was on it was the first organization to post information about the > Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability > advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an > legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members could > have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to those > Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web design > I have much experience in political and community organizing and in that > regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes forward I > would be willing to be involved in the process. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "T. Joseph Carter" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof > theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > > >> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no less >> >> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about >> nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email >> frequently. >> >> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What more >> could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has >> been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to >> step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully volunteered >> yourself to be that person. *grin* >> >> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there >> wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever >> action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's >> not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to cram >> legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of >> amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You >> don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the >> word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but >> this is what we've got. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action to >>> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When chapter >>> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications such >>> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >>> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is not >>> >>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to >>> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members and >>> >>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many questions >>> >>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting >>> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps the >>> >>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it relates >>> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in >>> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing legislative >>> >>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email >>> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much >>> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the >>> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action by >>> >>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation >>> and involvement. >>> Chuck >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From stiehm.law at juno.com Mon Feb 9 20:51:40 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 15:51:40 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 Message-ID: <20090209.155141.3160.1.stiehm.law@juno.com> Please note that this thread is "Accessibility legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121." The law quoted below is 17 U.S.C. 121. Fair Use as a concept is well-established in copyright law in the United States as well as in other countries. Based on the case law previously cited i.e., the 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Cir. 1999) format shifting for person use is Fair Use. It is not dependent on 17 U.S.C. 121 or ones disability status. Anyone can do it. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) We'll On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 13:34:11 -0600 James Pepper writes: > Here is the law: > Here is the law: > (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an > infringement > of copyright for an authorized entity to reproduce or to distribute > copies > or phonorecords of a previously published, nondramatic literary work > if such > copies or phonorecords are reproduced or distributed in specialized > formats > exclusively for use by blind or other persons with disabilities. > (b) > (1) Copies or phonorecords to which this section applies shall— > (A) not be reproduced or distributed in a format other than a > specialized > format exclusively for use by blind or other persons with > disabilities; > (B) bear a notice that any further reproduction or distribution in a > format > other than a specialized format is an infringement; and > (C) include a copyright notice identifying the copyright owner and > the date > of the original publication. > (2) The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to > standardized, > secure, or norm-referenced tests and related testing material, or > to > computer programs, except the portions thereof that are in > conventional > human language (including descriptions of pictorial works) and > displayed to > users in the ordinary course of using the computer programs. > > Thsi only applies to non dramatical works. Tom Clancy is a dramatic > work, > so you either take what the publisher, owner of the content > publishes or you > can not read his book. He does not have to sell you a thing! And > you have > no right to take his work without permission. > > James > > On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > wrote: > > > Mr. Pepper, > > > > I respectfully disagree. What I have described vis-a-vis the Tom > Clancy > > book is really just format shifting of an item that I own, i.e., > the > > book. (I agree Tom Clancy or whoever continues to own the > copyright.) > > However, format-shifting - that is, taking content you own in one > format > > and putting it into another format, for personal, use, is > considered fair > > use. I base this on 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 > player > > decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th > Circ. > > 1999). > > > > Patrick H. Stiehm > > Stiehm Law Office > > Alexandria, VA 22309 > > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > > > On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 02:04:15 -0600 James Pepper > writes: > > > No it is not fair use. The problem here is that the work is a > > > literary work > > > and so you are violating his copyright. If it were a technical > book > > > you > > > would be OK, but since the book is probably an audio book, you > just > > > stole > > > his rights and ability to sell you an audio book. By the way > you do > > > not > > > aquire his rights when you buy the book, he still retains his > > > copyright. Oh > > > and those publishers are particularly ruthless when it comes to > > > enforcement > > > of Tom Clancy books! > > > > > > James Pepper > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Patrick H. Stiehm > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been > doing a > > > bit of > > > > research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > > > > > > > > Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I > > > purchased > > > > the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then > cut > > > it up, > > > > run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. > After > > > it's > > > > was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a > > > voice > > > > format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > > > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is > irrelevant. > > > Since > > > > it is all for my personal use of something I presumably > acquired > > > legally, > > > > I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I > > > understand > > > > that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some > other > > > > countries, i.e. Australia.) > > > > > > > > Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of > the > > > copy > > > > right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this > > > thread. > > > > > > > > Patrick H. Stiehm > > > > Stiehm Law Office > > > > Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > > > > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews > > > > > > > writes: > > > > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > > > > reading services, and information access services > > > > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > > > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > > > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > > > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > > > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > > > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > > > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > > > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > > > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the > > > realization of > > > > > how > > > > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright > > > protection > > > > > is. > > > > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the > other > > > > > rather > > > > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a > > > broader > > > > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > > > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller > in > > > > > paperback, > > > > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a > PDF > > > > > document. > > > > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert > it to > > > a > > > > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that > recorded > > > > > format > > > > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the > Tom > > > > > Clancy > > > > > >book. > > > > > > > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done > with > > > it I > > > > > then > > > > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen > to. > > > Is > > > > > there > > > > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > > > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 > files > > > for > > > > > people to > > > > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I > > > simply > > > > > put it > > > > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my > > > charging > > > > > for > > > > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > > > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the > copyright > > > area > > > > > that > > > > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we > should > > > all > > > > > find > > > > > >this of interest. > > > > > > > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > > > > >Stiehm Law Office > > > > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > > > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > > > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your > household > > > > > needs now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV > > > > eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > >blindlaw mailing list > > > > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > > > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis > > > > i.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > > > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account > > > info > > > > > for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > > > > no.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > > Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBr > > Z5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > > > for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. > > com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > > > for blindlaw: > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > > no.com > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Click now for prescreened plumbing contractors. > > > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4DnEW1a0xT6OGF80cBnxexk 1PhMOwvk4Xzb1KIzR6w80hZ1/ > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail. com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Recharge and relax. Click for great vacation ideas. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2ij8HXxCoVh8JAtMkKN9ZbTvsHQzFw9W0vzuxEadmFJxTuP/ From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 21:45:54 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 13:45:54 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net><20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net><318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> <7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike> the technology for such a program is already developed. The question is getting NFB to use and pay for its use. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to > develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy > groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not > mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a > great idea. > > On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists that >> I >> was on it was the first organization to post information about the >> Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability >> advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an >> legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members >> could >> have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to >> those >> Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web >> design >> I have much experience in political and community organizing and in that >> regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes forward I >> would be willing to be involved in the process. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "T. Joseph Carter" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof >> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >> >> >>> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no >>> less >>> >>> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about >>> nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email >>> frequently. >>> >>> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What >>> more >>> could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has >>> been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to >>> step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully >>> volunteered >>> yourself to be that person. *grin* >>> >>> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there >>> wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever >>> action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's >>> not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to >>> cram >>> legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of >>> amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You >>> don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the >>> word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but >>> this is what we've got. >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action to >>>> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When >>>> chapter >>>> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications >>>> such >>>> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >>>> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is >>>> not >>>> >>>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to >>>> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members >>>> and >>>> >>>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many >>>> questions >>>> >>>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting >>>> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps >>>> the >>>> >>>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it >>>> relates >>>> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in >>>> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing >>>> legislative >>>> >>>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email >>>> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much >>>> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the >>>> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action >>>> by >>>> >>>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation >>>> and involvement. >>>> Chuck >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 23:08:57 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 15:08:57 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> References: <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> Message-ID: <20090209230857.GB7539@yumi.bluecherry.net> I think I see what you and Joe are advocating now. Not a bad idea actually. My apologies for missing the point before. Joseph On Mon, Feb 09, 2009 at 12:06:28PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists that > I was on it was the first organization to post information about the > Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability > advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an > legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members > could have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax > to those Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in > web design I have much experience in political and community organizing > and in that regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this > goes forward I would be willing to be involved in the process. > Chuck From b75205 at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 23:39:58 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 17:39:58 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike> References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> <7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com> <12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike> Message-ID: Well all they really need to do is issue the press releases directly to the members. If they need to do anything fancy they can use daisy for more extensively laid out items, particularly legislation, thats not that difficult. The only problem I see is when people try to access congressional websites for addresses, that would have to be provided in the press release. James On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:45 PM, wrote: > the technology for such a program is already developed. The question is > getting NFB to use and pay for its use. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] > NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > > > > I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to >> develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy >> groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not >> mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a >> great idea. >> >> On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> >>> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists that >>> I >>> was on it was the first organization to post information about the >>> Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability >>> advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an >>> legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members >>> could >>> have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to >>> those >>> Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web >>> design >>> I have much experience in political and community organizing and in that >>> regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes forward I >>> would be willing to be involved in the process. >>> Chuck >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "T. Joseph Carter" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof >>> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >>> >>> >>> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no >>>> less >>>> >>>> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of about >>>> nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email >>>> frequently. >>>> >>>> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What >>>> more >>>> could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it has >>>> been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive to >>>> step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully >>>> volunteered >>>> yourself to be that person. *grin* >>>> >>>> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there >>>> wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take whatever >>>> action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. There's >>>> not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to >>>> cram >>>> legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of >>>> amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You >>>> don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get the >>>> word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, but >>>> this is what we've got. >>>> >>>> Joseph >>>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>>>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action to >>>>> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When >>>>> chapter >>>>> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications >>>>> such >>>>> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >>>>> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is >>>>> not >>>>> >>>>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to >>>>> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many >>>>> questions >>>>> >>>>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting >>>>> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it >>>>> relates >>>>> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in >>>>> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing >>>>> legislative >>>>> >>>>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>>>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email >>>>> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is much >>>>> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the >>>>> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate action >>>>> by >>>>> >>>>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>>>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member participation >>>>> and involvement. >>>>> Chuck >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> -- >> -Shane >> Website: http://www.blind-geek.com >> AIM: inhaddict >> MSN: shane at blind-geek.com >> Skype: chatter8712 >> Twitter: blind_geek >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 9 23:59:30 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 15:59:30 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <20090209230857.GB7539@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net><318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> <20090209230857.GB7539@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <56C15CD5DB8943F0B906715ABAE4B17C@spike> If you need to you can contact me off list or by phone to discuss this further. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]NationalFederationof theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >I think I see what you and Joe are advocating now. Not a bad idea >actually. My apologies for missing the point before. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Feb 09, 2009 at 12:06:28PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists that >> I was on it was the first organization to post information about the >> Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability >> advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an >> legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members >> could have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax >> to those Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in >> web design I have much experience in political and community organizing >> and in that regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this >> goes forward I would be willing to be involved in the process. >> Chuck > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From jsorozco at gmail.com Tue Feb 10 00:47:32 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 19:47:32 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike> Message-ID: <0671B31B118C4981A850954EC7CF64BB@MonkeyPaw> Exactly. There is no traditional web development required, because the designing is all carried out online using their tools. In most cases the pages are custom-built to reflect the organization's general look and feel. All that is required is the investment, and since the Center has already trained staff on how to use the system for the fundraising component, all that would be required is some training on how to take advantage of the advocacy tools. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 4:46 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw]NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment the technology for such a program is already developed. The question is getting NFB to use and pay for its use. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to >develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy >groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not >mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a >great idea. > > On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists >> that I was on it was the first organization to post information about >> the Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other >> disability advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not >> all. Had an legislative action been in place along with the alert >> emails members could have clicked on a link in the email and >> generated an email or fax to those Senators acting on this amendment. >> While my background is not in web design I have much experience in >> political and community organizing and in that regard I am familiar >> with how these systems work. If this goes forward I would be willing >> to be involved in the process. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "T. Joseph Carter" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof >> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >> >> >>> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received >>> no less >>> >>> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of >>> about nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my >>> email frequently. >>> >>> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What >>> more could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not >>> surprised it has been on the back burner waiting for someone with >>> the energy and drive to step forward and make it happen. You might >>> have successfully volunteered yourself to be that person. *grin* >>> >>> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that >>> there wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take >>> whatever action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we >>> had. There's not much that can be done when a near supermajority >>> starts trying to cram legislation down our throats with hundreds of >>> pages and dozens of amendments unless you are right there and >>> watching it constantly. You don't have time to get the word out, >>> and the people you want to get the word out to probably haven't got >>> time to respond. It's unfortunate, but this is what we've got. >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take >>>> action to support the NFB philosophy when advocating for >>>> legislation. When chapter meetings are held once a month and state >>>> bulletins and publications such as the Monitor are published once a >>>> month this does not provide for timely action on the part of >>>> members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is not >>>> >>>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came >>>> to light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by >>>> members and >>>> >>>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many >>>> questions >>>> >>>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services >>>> limiting funds for such services will not improve them on any >>>> account. Perhaps the >>>> >>>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it >>>> relates to members and how effective existing methods of >>>> communication are in mobilizing its members. Is the current method >>>> of distributing legislative >>>> >>>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative >>>> email alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as >>>> it is much more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter >>>> meetings and the fact that it is available in an accessible format >>>> for immediate action by >>>> >>>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member >>>> participation and involvement. >>>> Chuck >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%4 >>> 0sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s > bcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.c om From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 10 02:08:34 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:08:34 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net><20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net><318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike><7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com><12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike> Message-ID: <3700A3EE624644EDA3C5974AEBD96144@spike> with the use of an email legislative alert system the emails or faxes are sent automatically to the legislators as the system is able to match up the member's address with their state and Federal legislative districts. There is then no need to waste time going to web sites looking up legislative addresses. The system can also be used to generate state specific alerts on issues. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > Well all they really need to do is issue the press releases directly to > the > members. If they need to do anything fancy they can use daisy for more > extensively laid out items, particularly legislation, thats not that > difficult. The only problem I see is when people try to access > congressional > websites for addresses, that would have to be provided in the press > release. > > James > > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:45 PM, wrote: > >> the technology for such a program is already developed. The question is >> getting NFB to use and pay for its use. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:50 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] >> NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >> >> >> >> I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to >>> develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy >>> groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not >>> mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a >>> great idea. >>> >>> On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>> >>>> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists >>>> that >>>> I >>>> was on it was the first organization to post information about the >>>> Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability >>>> advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an >>>> legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members >>>> could >>>> have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to >>>> those >>>> Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web >>>> design >>>> I have much experience in political and community organizing and in >>>> that >>>> regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes forward >>>> I >>>> would be willing to be involved in the process. >>>> Chuck >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "T. Joseph Carter" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof >>>> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >>>> >>>> >>>> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no >>>>> less >>>>> >>>>> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of >>>>> about >>>>> nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email >>>>> frequently. >>>>> >>>>> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What >>>>> more >>>>> could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it >>>>> has >>>>> been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive >>>>> to >>>>> step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully >>>>> volunteered >>>>> yourself to be that person. *grin* >>>>> >>>>> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there >>>>> wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take >>>>> whatever >>>>> action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. >>>>> There's >>>>> not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to >>>>> cram >>>>> legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of >>>>> amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You >>>>> don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get >>>>> the >>>>> word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, >>>>> but >>>>> this is what we've got. >>>>> >>>>> Joseph >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>>>>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action >>>>>> to >>>>>> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When >>>>>> chapter >>>>>> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications >>>>>> such >>>>>> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >>>>>> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is >>>>>> not >>>>>> >>>>>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to >>>>>> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many >>>>>> questions >>>>>> >>>>>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting >>>>>> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it >>>>>> relates >>>>>> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in >>>>>> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing >>>>>> legislative >>>>>> >>>>>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>>>>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email >>>>>> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is >>>>>> much >>>>>> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the >>>>>> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate >>>>>> action >>>>>> by >>>>>> >>>>>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>>>>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member >>>>>> participation >>>>>> and involvement. >>>>>> Chuck >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> -Shane >>> Website: http://www.blind-geek.com >>> AIM: inhaddict >>> MSN: shane at blind-geek.com >>> Skype: chatter8712 >>> Twitter: blind_geek >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From b75205 at gmail.com Tue Feb 10 02:37:26 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:37:26 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <3700A3EE624644EDA3C5974AEBD96144@spike> References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net> <318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike> <7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com> <12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike> <3700A3EE624644EDA3C5974AEBD96144@spike> Message-ID: actually the AAPD has this system in effect. Perhaps the NFB shoudl coordinate with them! James On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 8:08 PM, wrote: > with the use of an email legislative alert system the emails or faxes are > sent automatically to the legislators as the system is able to match up the > member's address with their state and Federal legislative districts. There > is then no need to waste time going to web sites looking up legislative > addresses. The system can also be used to generate state specific alerts on > issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:39 PM > > Subject: Re: > [blindlaw]NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > > > Well all they really need to do is issue the press releases directly to the >> members. If they need to do anything fancy they can use daisy for more >> extensively laid out items, particularly legislation, thats not that >> difficult. The only problem I see is when people try to access >> congressional >> websites for addresses, that would have to be provided in the press >> release. >> >> James >> >> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:45 PM, wrote: >> >> the technology for such a program is already developed. The question is >>> getting NFB to use and pay for its use. >>> Chuck >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:50 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] >>> NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >>> >>> >>> >>> I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to >>> >>>> develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy >>>> groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not >>>> mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a >>>> great idea. >>>> >>>> On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>>> >>>> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists >>>>> that >>>>> I >>>>> was on it was the first organization to post information about the >>>>> Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability >>>>> advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an >>>>> legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members >>>>> could >>>>> have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to >>>>> those >>>>> Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web >>>>> design >>>>> I have much experience in political and community organizing and in >>>>> that >>>>> regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes forward >>>>> I >>>>> would be willing to be involved in the process. >>>>> Chuck >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "T. Joseph Carter" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof >>>>> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no >>>>> >>>>>> less >>>>>> >>>>>> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of >>>>>> about >>>>>> nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email >>>>>> frequently. >>>>>> >>>>>> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What >>>>>> more >>>>>> could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it >>>>>> has >>>>>> been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and drive >>>>>> to >>>>>> step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully >>>>>> volunteered >>>>>> yourself to be that person. *grin* >>>>>> >>>>>> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that there >>>>>> wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take >>>>>> whatever >>>>>> action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. >>>>>> There's >>>>>> not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to >>>>>> cram >>>>>> legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of >>>>>> amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. You >>>>>> don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get >>>>>> the >>>>>> word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, >>>>>> but >>>>>> this is what we've got. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joseph >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.netwrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>>>>>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take action >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When >>>>>>> chapter >>>>>>> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications >>>>>>> such >>>>>>> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >>>>>>> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment is >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> >>>>>>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came to >>>>>>> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by members >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many >>>>>>> questions >>>>>>> >>>>>>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services limiting >>>>>>> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. Perhaps >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it >>>>>>> relates >>>>>>> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are in >>>>>>> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing >>>>>>> legislative >>>>>>> >>>>>>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>>>>>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative email >>>>>>> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and the >>>>>>> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate >>>>>>> action >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> >>>>>>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>>>>>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member >>>>>>> participation >>>>>>> and involvement. >>>>>>> Chuck >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> -Shane >>>> Website: http://www.blind-geek.com >>>> AIM: inhaddict >>>> MSN: shane at blind-geek.com >>>> Skype: chatter8712 >>>> Twitter: blind_geek >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 10 02:47:25 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:47:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: References: <20090209045855.GB522@yumi.bluecherry.net><20090209112325.GA3527@yumi.bluecherry.net><318BA0162D424D4B847E670458C1474F@spike><7556b95a0902091250q3d0bd1e9h4c1a57d3adaf6bde@mail.gmail.com><12DE0932E3A54B3F8B229111CA214DB7@spike><3700A3EE624644EDA3C5974AEBD96144@spike> Message-ID: Is theirs actually sending out the alerts and responses to legislators? The last time I checked their web site users still had to go to the legislators web sites and respond and since I couldn't do it automatically and didn't want to waste time doing it I never went back. I know this shows my level of laziness when it comes to responding and how spoiled I've become by Internet technology. This was a while ago. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw]NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment > actually the AAPD has this system in effect. Perhaps the NFB shoudl > coordinate with them! > > James > > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 8:08 PM, wrote: > >> with the use of an email legislative alert system the emails or faxes are >> sent automatically to the legislators as the system is able to match up >> the >> member's address with their state and Federal legislative districts. >> There >> is then no need to waste time going to web sites looking up legislative >> addresses. The system can also be used to generate state specific alerts >> on >> issues. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:39 PM >> >> Subject: Re: >> [blindlaw]NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >> >> >> Well all they really need to do is issue the press releases directly to >> the >>> members. If they need to do anything fancy they can use daisy for more >>> extensively laid out items, particularly legislation, thats not that >>> difficult. The only problem I see is when people try to access >>> congressional >>> websites for addresses, that would have to be provided in the press >>> release. >>> >>> James >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:45 PM, wrote: >>> >>> the technology for such a program is already developed. The question is >>>> getting NFB to use and pay for its use. >>>> Chuck >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:50 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] >>>> NationalFederationoftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I guess the real question here is whether someone is willing to >>>> >>>>> develop this, or whether we are asking the major disability advocacy >>>>> groups to do this. I have a background in web design and would not >>>>> mind helping out on something like this, and I think it would be a >>>>> great idea. >>>>> >>>>> On 2/9/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I too am on many email lists and to give the NFB credit of the lists >>>>>> that >>>>>> I >>>>>> was on it was the first organization to post information about the >>>>>> Nelson-Collins amendment. It seems that many of the other disability >>>>>> advocacy organizations did not post it until later or not all. Had an >>>>>> legislative action been in place along with the alert emails members >>>>>> could >>>>>> have clicked on a link in the email and generated an email or fax to >>>>>> those >>>>>> Senators acting on this amendment. While my background is not in web >>>>>> design >>>>>> I have much experience in political and community organizing and in >>>>>> that >>>>>> regard I am familiar with how these systems work. If this goes >>>>>> forward >>>>>> I >>>>>> would be willing to be involved in the process. >>>>>> Chuck >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "T. Joseph Carter" >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:23 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NationalFederationof >>>>>> theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Probably the fastest way to reach people is via email. I received no >>>>>> >>>>>>> less >>>>>>> >>>>>>> than five emails about the Nelson-Collins amendment in the span of >>>>>>> about >>>>>>> nine hours. But then, I am on the right lists and check my email >>>>>>> frequently. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To that extent, what can be easily done is already being done. What >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> could be done is a complex problem, I think. I am not surprised it >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> been on the back burner waiting for someone with the energy and >>>>>>> drive >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> step forward and make it happen. You might have successfully >>>>>>> volunteered >>>>>>> yourself to be that person. *grin* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My point in discussing this particular amendment is that is that >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> wasn't time to discuss it. We had pretty much one day to take >>>>>>> whatever >>>>>>> action was to be taken. And we did, based on what time we had. >>>>>>> There's >>>>>>> not much that can be done when a near supermajority starts trying to >>>>>>> cram >>>>>>> legislation down our throats with hundreds of pages and dozens of >>>>>>> amendments unless you are right there and watching it constantly. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>> don't have time to get the word out, and the people you want to get >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> word out to probably haven't got time to respond. It's unfortunate, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> this is what we've got. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:50:03PM -0800, >>>>>>> ckrugman at sbcglobal.netwrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not sure that I understand this logic in that the issue here is >>>>>>>> methods in which members can effectively be mobilized to take >>>>>>>> action >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> support the NFB philosophy when advocating for legislation. When >>>>>>>> chapter >>>>>>>> meetings are held once a month and state bulletins and publications >>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>> as the Monitor are published once a month this does not provide for >>>>>>>> timely action on the part of members. The Nelson-Collins Amendment >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> really the issue here it was the means that the broader issue came >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> light as there was a need for immediate action to be taken by >>>>>>>> members >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> an inadequate method of members to take such action. While many >>>>>>>> questions >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> have always been raised regarding the quality of VR services >>>>>>>> limiting >>>>>>>> funds for such services will not improve them on any account. >>>>>>>> Perhaps >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NFB needs to spend some time and money on modernizing the way it >>>>>>>> relates >>>>>>>> to members and how effective existing methods of communication are >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> mobilizing its members. Is the current method of distributing >>>>>>>> legislative >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> information through audio tapes played at chapter meetings the most >>>>>>>> effective method? I for one would prefer to receive legislative >>>>>>>> email >>>>>>>> alerts as is done with most other advocacy organizations as it is >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> more expedient with regard to use of time at chapter meetings and >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> fact that it is available in an accessible format for immediate >>>>>>>> action >>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> members. This does not preclude the use of information published in >>>>>>>> Braille but it would result in a greater degree of member >>>>>>>> participation >>>>>>>> and involvement. >>>>>>>> Chuck >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> -Shane >>>>> Website: http://www.blind-geek.com >>>>> AIM: inhaddict >>>>> MSN: shane at blind-geek.com >>>>> Skype: chatter8712 >>>>> Twitter: blind_geek >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From roddj12 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 8 03:13:14 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 22:13:14 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 References: <20090205.081250.5492.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: David: That's what makes it fun! Technically, you are a violator. (Smile). Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Accessible legislation/law beyond 17 U.S.C. 121 So, should I become a lawyer???!!! At 07:12 AM 2/5/2009, you wrote: >I think that this has been a good discussion. I have been doing a bit of >research and as a result here is what I have concluded. > >Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head. In my example I purchased >the latest Tom Clancy thriller, so it is my property. I then cut it up, >run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF document. After it's >was in PDF format by using Natural Reader I converted it to a voice >format. I then listened to the book in that recorded me to be one. David >My Father always wanted > format (MP3). Whether I am sight impaired or not is irrelevant. Since >it is all for my personal use of something I presumably acquired legally, >I fall under the fair use doctrine, at least in the US. (I understand >that may not be true under the fair use doctrines of some other >countries, i.e. Australia.) > >Everything I did after that in my example is a violation of the copy >right, for all the reasons everyone has been citing in this thread. > >Patrick H. Stiehm >Stiehm Law Office >Alexandria, VA 22309 >703-360-1089 (Voice) >703-935-8266 (Fax) > >On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:10 -0600 David Andrews >writes: > > While I am not a lawyer, I have worked in radio > > reading services, and information access services > > for nearly 30 years. It seems to me that your > > first action, making MP3's would be find under > > fair use, but giving to others or posting on > > internet would not be. If you gave him > > the book, you might be able to give him the > > MP3's but I can't see how putting on Internet, > > even if not charging would be ok. You are not a > > nonprofit serving the blind etc. > > > > > > Dave > > > > At 08:28 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: > > >A careful reading of 17 U.S.C. § 121, results in the realization of > > how > > >truly narrow in scope this exception to the copyright protection > > is. > > >Once you get beyond the question of textbooks i and the other > > rather > > >limited number of materials the statute covers you have a broader > > >question of copyright infringement. > > > > > >For example, suppose I buy the latest Tom Clancy thriller in > > paperback, > > >cut it up, run it through my scanner and convert it to a PDF > > document. > > >After it's in PDF format by use Natural Reader to convert it to a > > >recorded format. I then listened to the book in that recorded > > format > > >(MP3). Have I violated the copyright with respect to the Tom > > Clancy > > >book. > > > > > >Beyond what I have described, assume that after I am done with it I > > then > > >give the book in this recorded format to a friend to listen to. Is > > there > > >a copyright violation at that point. > > > > > >I'm relatively certain that if I start to sell my MP3 files for > > people to > > >listen to the book I am violating the copyright. What if I simply > > put it > > >up on the web for people to download and enjoy, without my charging > > for > > >it. Is there a violation? > > > > > >Is there anybody on the list that has worked in the copyright area > > that > > >is comfortable addressing these questions? I think we should all > > find > > >this of interest. > > > > > >Patrick H. Stiehm > > >Stiehm Law Office > > >Alexandria, VA 22309 > > >703-360-1089 (Voice) > > >703-935-8266 (Fax) > > >____________________________________________________________ > > >Great for your home and office! Stock up on all your household > > needs now. > > > >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw4EZkGr993Ddx9QZLRaknpV >eDZ35lPaey78xXgekwHfpAZMr/ > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >blindlaw mailing list > > >blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > > >your account info for blindlaw: > > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40vis >i.com > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: > > >270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 7:21 PM > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for blindlaw: > > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >no.com > > > > >____________________________________________________________ >Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here. >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1eoqIOToH7x2vayl5JzaMBrZ5naGZuxVTxT49wTTJi7MYwX/ > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.17/1931 - Release Date: 2/2/2009 >7:21 PM _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com From JFreeh at nfb.org Fri Feb 13 03:38:09 2009 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 21:38:09 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 Baltimore, Maryland (February 12, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the largest organization of blind people in the United States, today responded to a statement put out by the Authors Guild advising its members to consider negotiating contracts prohibiting e-books to be read aloud by the new Amazon Kindle 2, which incorporates text-to-speech technology. The Authors Guild argues that the reading of a book out loud by a machine is a copyright infringement unless the copyright holder has specifically granted permission for the book to be read aloud. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The National Federation of the Blind supports all technologies that allow blind people to have better access to the printed word, including the ability of devices like the Kindle 2 to read commercial e-books aloud using text-to-speech technology. Although the Authors Guild claims that it supports making books accessible to the blind, its position on the inclusion of text-to-speech technology in the Kindle 2 is harmful to blind people. The Authors Guild says that having a book read aloud by a machine in the privacy of one's home or vehicle is a copyright infringement. But blind people routinely use readers, either human or machine, to access books that are not available in alternative formats like Braille or audio. Up until now, no one has argued that this is illegal, but now the Authors Guild says that it is. This is absolutely wrong. The blind and other readers have the right for books to be presented to us in the format that is most useful to us, and we are not violating copyright law as long as we use readers, either human or machine, for private rather than public listening. The key point is that reading aloud in private is the same whether done by a person or a machine, and reading aloud in private is never an infringement of copyright. "Amazon has taken a step in the right direction by including text-to-speech technology for reading e-books aloud on its new Kindle 2," Dr. Maurer continued. "We note, however, that the device itself cannot be used independently by a blind reader because the controls to download a book and begin reading it aloud are visual and therefore inaccessible to the blind. We urge Amazon to rectify this situation as soon as possible in order to make the Kindle 2 a device that truly can be used both by blind and sighted readers. By doing so, Amazon will make it possible for blind people to purchase a new book and begin reading it immediately, just as sighted people do." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. From lmilholland at hotmail.com Fri Feb 13 13:54:29 2009 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:54:29 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: * Moving your lips while reading in front of someone who can read lips is therefore a copyright violation. * allowing someone to read over your shoulder is a copyright violation. *Sitting on the beach and reading with reflective mirrored sunglasses is a copyright violation. *remembering what you read, is a copyright violation, if over 100 words and/or not properly cited. Future litigation: Timex v. guy who answered when asked for the time. Rand Mcnally v. guy who gave directions MLB v. guy who told his friend the score without the expressed written consent of Major League Baseball and its affiliates Common sense v. copyright holders. Locke -------------------------------------------------- From: "Freeh,Jessica (by way of David Andrews )" Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:38 PM To: Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > CONTACT: > Chris Danielsen > Director of Public Relations > National Federation of the Blind > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild > Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 > > Baltimore, Maryland (February 12, 2009): The National Federation of the > Blind, the largest organization of blind people in the United States, > today responded to a statement put out by the Authors Guild advising its > members to consider negotiating contracts prohibiting e-books to be read > aloud by the new Amazon Kindle 2, which incorporates text-to-speech > technology. The Authors Guild argues that the reading of a book out loud > by a machine is a copyright infringement unless the copyright holder has > specifically granted permission for the book to be read aloud. > > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: > "The National Federation of the Blind supports all technologies that allow > blind people to have better access to the printed word, including the > ability of devices like the Kindle 2 to read commercial e-books aloud > using text-to-speech technology. Although the Authors Guild claims that it > supports making books accessible to the blind, its position on the > inclusion of text-to-speech technology in the Kindle 2 is harmful to blind > people. The Authors Guild says that having a book read aloud by a machine > in the privacy of one's home or vehicle is a copyright infringement. But > blind people routinely use readers, either human or machine, to access > books that are not available in alternative formats like Braille or audio. > Up until now, no one has argued that this is illegal, but now the Authors > Guild says that it is. This is absolutely wrong. The blind and other > readers have the right for books to be presented to us in the format that > is most useful to us, and we are not violating copyright law as long as we > use readers, either human or machine, for private rather than public > listening. The key point is that reading aloud in private is the same > whether done by a person or a machine, and reading aloud in private is > never an infringement of copyright. > > "Amazon has taken a step in the right direction by including > text-to-speech technology for reading e-books aloud on its new Kindle 2," > Dr. Maurer continued. "We note, however, that the device itself cannot be > used independently by a blind reader because the controls to download a > book and begin reading it aloud are visual and therefore inaccessible to > the blind. We urge Amazon to rectify this situation as soon as possible in > order to make the Kindle 2 a device that truly can be used both by blind > and sighted readers. By doing so, Amazon will make it possible for blind > people to purchase a new book and begin reading it immediately, just as > sighted people do." > > > > ### > > > > About the National Federation of the Blind > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the > largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in > the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, > education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and > self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and > the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the > National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research > and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com > From stiehm.law at juno.com Fri Feb 13 14:13:21 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:13:21 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 Message-ID: <20090213.091321.4292.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> So the Authors Guild says that having a book read aloud by a machine in the privacy of one's home or vehicle is a copyright infringement. I'll bet they don't sue on it. In my opinion, they would loose and if they are well counseled, that know it. Although some will disagree, in my opinion this is nothing more than format shifting, which falls under Fair Use. We had a thread going on this issue for the last week or so, which forced me to do some research. I reached my conclusion based on the 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Cir. 1999), both of which concluded that format shifting for person use is Fair Use. The proposed contract restriction is far more insidious. A contract not to make these books available in audio format may in fact be enforceable as between the parties. However, if the Kindle 2 is capable of converting the text-to-speech how is the Authors Guild going to enforce the contract provision against third parties? The other problem they may have is if they insist on that provision, is that they may find they cannot sell their books in electronic text format which represents an economic loss that the individual authors may not be willing to accept. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 21:38:09 -0600 "Freeh, Jessica" (by way of David Andrews ) writes: > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > CONTACT: > Chris Danielsen > Director of Public Relations > National Federation of the Blind > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild > Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 > > Baltimore, Maryland (February 12, 2009): The National Federation of > > the Blind, the largest organization of blind people in the United > States, today responded to a statement put out by the Authors Guild > > advising its members to consider negotiating contracts prohibiting > e-books to be read aloud by the new Amazon Kindle 2, which > incorporates text-to-speech technology. The Authors Guild argues > that > the reading of a book out loud by a machine is a copyright > infringement unless the copyright holder has specifically granted > permission for the book to be read aloud. > > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, > > said: "The National Federation of the Blind supports all > technologies > that allow blind people to have better access to the printed word, > including the ability of devices like the Kindle 2 to read > commercial > e-books aloud using text-to-speech technology. Although the Authors > > Guild claims that it supports making books accessible to the blind, > > its position on the inclusion of text-to-speech technology in the > Kindle 2 is harmful to blind people. The Authors Guild says that > having a book read aloud by a machine in the privacy of one's home > or > vehicle is a copyright infringement. But blind people routinely use > > readers, either human or machine, to access books that are not > available in alternative formats like Braille or audio. Up until > now, > no one has argued that this is illegal, but now the Authors Guild > says that it is. This is absolutely wrong. The blind and other > readers have the right for books to be presented to us in the format > > that is most useful to us, and we are not violating copyright law as > > long as we use readers, either human or machine, for private rather > > than public listening. The key point is that reading aloud in > private > is the same whether done by a person or a machine, and reading aloud > > in private is never an infringement of copyright. > > "Amazon has taken a step in the right direction by including > text-to-speech technology for reading e-books aloud on its new > Kindle > 2," Dr. Maurer continued. "We note, however, that the device itself > > cannot be used independently by a blind reader because the controls > > to download a book and begin reading it aloud are visual and > therefore inaccessible to the blind. We urge Amazon to rectify this > > situation as soon as possible in order to make the Kindle 2 a device > > that truly can be used both by blind and sighted readers. By doing > so, Amazon will make it possible for blind people to purchase a new > > book and begin reading it immediately, just as sighted people do." > > > > ### > > > > About the National Federation of the Blind > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind > > is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind > > people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives > through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs > encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading > force > in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In > > January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind > Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the > United States for the blind led by the blind. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Become a religous scholar today. Click here for more information. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3gXOnp2Hrymr2sLgFT0ZwdekhI5atXK9v7kZkVwPWwNOw43/ From everett at zufelt.ca Fri Feb 13 15:58:52 2009 From: everett at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:58:52 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good morning, I think that is reasonable for an author to be able to treat the right to a printed version of their work separately than the rights to an audio version of their work. However, it is also reasonable that visually impaired readers, or any otherwise textually impaired readers, be able to access a copy of the work in an accessible format. I don't think that these two propositions are in conflict with each other. When I was in school publishers would send me digital copies of their texts, while my classmates had to work with printed versions. If I were to share the digital copy with a student who had purchased the printed version I would be violating copyright, as I was granted a license to use the digital copy myself, and not to share it with outhers. Everett On 13-Feb-09, at 9:54 AM, Locke Milholland wrote: > * Moving your lips while reading in front of someone who can read > lips is therefore a copyright violation. > * allowing someone to read over your shoulder is a copyright > violation. > *Sitting on the beach and reading with reflective mirrored > sunglasses is a copyright violation. > *remembering what you read, is a copyright violation, if over 100 > words and/or not properly cited. > > Future litigation: > Timex v. guy who answered when asked for the time. > Rand Mcnally v. guy who gave directions > MLB v. guy who told his friend the score without the expressed > written consent of Major League Baseball and its affiliates > > Common sense v. copyright holders. > Locke > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Freeh,Jessica (by way of David Andrews )" > > Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:38 PM > To: > Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to > Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 > >> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >> >> CONTACT: >> Chris Danielsen >> Director of Public Relations >> National Federation of the Blind >> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >> cdanielsen at nfb.org >> >> National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild >> Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 >> >> Baltimore, Maryland (February 12, 2009): The National Federation of >> the Blind, the largest organization of blind people in the United >> States, today responded to a statement put out by the Authors Guild >> advising its members to consider negotiating contracts prohibiting >> e-books to be read aloud by the new Amazon Kindle 2, which >> incorporates text-to-speech technology. The Authors Guild argues >> that the reading of a book out loud by a machine is a copyright >> infringement unless the copyright holder has specifically granted >> permission for the book to be read aloud. >> >> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, >> said: "The National Federation of the Blind supports all >> technologies that allow blind people to have better access to the >> printed word, including the ability of devices like the Kindle 2 to >> read commercial e-books aloud using text-to-speech technology. >> Although the Authors Guild claims that it supports making books >> accessible to the blind, its position on the inclusion of text-to- >> speech technology in the Kindle 2 is harmful to blind people. The >> Authors Guild says that having a book read aloud by a machine in >> the privacy of one's home or vehicle is a copyright infringement. >> But blind people routinely use readers, either human or machine, to >> access books that are not available in alternative formats like >> Braille or audio. Up until now, no one has argued that this is >> illegal, but now the Authors Guild says that it is. This is >> absolutely wrong. The blind and other readers have the right for >> books to be presented to us in the format that is most useful to >> us, and we are not violating copyright law as long as we use >> readers, either human or machine, for private rather than public >> listening. The key point is that reading aloud in private is the >> same whether done by a person or a machine, and reading aloud in >> private is never an infringement of copyright. >> >> "Amazon has taken a step in the right direction by including text- >> to-speech technology for reading e-books aloud on its new Kindle >> 2," Dr. Maurer continued. "We note, however, that the device itself >> cannot be used independently by a blind reader because the controls >> to download a book and begin reading it aloud are visual and >> therefore inaccessible to the blind. We urge Amazon to rectify this >> situation as soon as possible in order to make the Kindle 2 a >> device that truly can be used both by blind and sighted readers. By >> doing so, Amazon will make it possible for blind people to purchase >> a new book and begin reading it immediately, just as sighted people >> do." >> >> >> >> ### >> >> >> >> About the National Federation of the Blind >> >> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >> is the largest and most influential membership organization of >> blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's >> lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and >> programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the >> leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the >> nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National >> Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and >> training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zufelt.ca From steve.jacobson at visi.com Sat Feb 14 00:12:41 2009 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:12:41 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Where I think your logic breaks down a little is when texts are readily availlable for purchase in electronic format which is what I understand is the case with these Amazon books but are not accessible to us. There may come a day when a text-to-speech engine is as good as a human reader, but I have yet to see one that can really compete with commercially produced audio books. Perhaps the Author's Guild is thinking ahead to the day when that will happen and in that sense, I can understand their position. On the other hand, there is a practical side of all this that is not being considered. Is it right to allow the print to be made easier to read through an electronic device that can enhance the contrast or enlarge the print but not to speak it, or is the Author's Guild contending that to alter the pring in any way is a violation of their copyright? Certainly I can see some of the concerns of the Author's Guild, but I also see their position as not being in touch with reality in some ways as well. If someone marked up the text to force characters to be spoken in different voices, for example, I could better understand their objection. The best approach, to me, though, is to try to work toward a reasoned solution that takes into account the fact that there are some fuzzy lines, and that they should be worrying about the more obvious lines. Why not try to work out a standard that limits the quality of the text-to-speech voices used, for example. For us, the problem is simply that if we could get access to a book using technology that is aimed, at least sort of, at the mainstream, we'll get it faster and more quickly. We will also be more likely to pay for the book. We also have the current move toward the provision of college textbooks to all students, and this would reduce the enthusiasm that might otherwise be displayed to make such books accessible using the software required to read the books. Publishers have been helpful in getting us electronic copies of textbooks, but I would not say that they have always bent over backwards to do it, and I suspect that the passage and threat of passage of certain laws has probably forced some degree of cooperation. In short, I do understand the concern that author's might have, but I also feel this is the typical response that is always looking back instead of ahead. After all, music on cassettes meant the end of commercial music, and we should have stayed with records. The line between print and text-to-speech has long been growing finer with text-to-speech being added to software for the benefit of sighted persons as well as the blind. It is a part of Adobe Acrobat, Microsoft Office, and OmniPage just for text reading and not specifically for accessibility. These rendoring are not the same as a commercial audio recording read by someone who usually has a professional acting background. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:58:52 -0400, E.J. Zufelt wrote: >Good morning, >I think that is reasonable for an author to be able to treat the right >to a printed version of their work separately than the rights to an >audio version of their work. However, it is also reasonable that >visually impaired readers, or any otherwise textually impaired >readers, be able to access a copy of the work in an accessible format. >I don't think that these two propositions are in conflict with each >other. When I was in school publishers would send me digital copies >of their texts, while my classmates had to work with printed >versions. If I were to share the digital copy with a student who had >purchased the printed version I would be violating copyright, as I was >granted a license to use the digital copy myself, and not to share it >with outhers. >Everett >On 13-Feb-09, at 9:54 AM, Locke Milholland wrote: >> * Moving your lips while reading in front of someone who can read >> lips is therefore a copyright violation. >> * allowing someone to read over your shoulder is a copyright >> violation. >> *Sitting on the beach and reading with reflective mirrored >> sunglasses is a copyright violation. >> *remembering what you read, is a copyright violation, if over 100 >> words and/or not properly cited. >> >> Future litigation: >> Timex v. guy who answered when asked for the time. >> Rand Mcnally v. guy who gave directions >> MLB v. guy who told his friend the score without the expressed >> written consent of Major League Baseball and its affiliates >> >> Common sense v. copyright holders. >> Locke >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Freeh,Jessica (by way of David Andrews )" > > >> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:38 PM >> To: >> Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to >> Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild >>> Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 12, 2009): The National Federation of >>> the Blind, the largest organization of blind people in the United >>> States, today responded to a statement put out by the Authors Guild >>> advising its members to consider negotiating contracts prohibiting >>> e-books to be read aloud by the new Amazon Kindle 2, which >>> incorporates text-to-speech technology. The Authors Guild argues >>> that the reading of a book out loud by a machine is a copyright >>> infringement unless the copyright holder has specifically granted >>> permission for the book to be read aloud. >>> >>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, >>> said: "The National Federation of the Blind supports all >>> technologies that allow blind people to have better access to the >>> printed word, including the ability of devices like the Kindle 2 to >>> read commercial e-books aloud using text-to-speech technology. >>> Although the Authors Guild claims that it supports making books >>> accessible to the blind, its position on the inclusion of text-to- >>> speech technology in the Kindle 2 is harmful to blind people. The >>> Authors Guild says that having a book read aloud by a machine in >>> the privacy of one's home or vehicle is a copyright infringement. >>> But blind people routinely use readers, either human or machine, to >>> access books that are not available in alternative formats like >>> Braille or audio. Up until now, no one has argued that this is >>> illegal, but now the Authors Guild says that it is. This is >>> absolutely wrong. The blind and other readers have the right for >>> books to be presented to us in the format that is most useful to >>> us, and we are not violating copyright law as long as we use >>> readers, either human or machine, for private rather than public >>> listening. The key point is that reading aloud in private is the >>> same whether done by a person or a machine, and reading aloud in >>> private is never an infringement of copyright. >>> >>> "Amazon has taken a step in the right direction by including text- >>> to-speech technology for reading e-books aloud on its new Kindle >>> 2," Dr. Maurer continued. "We note, however, that the device itself >>> cannot be used independently by a blind reader because the controls >>> to download a book and begin reading it aloud are visual and >>> therefore inaccessible to the blind. We urge Amazon to rectify this >>> situation as soon as possible in order to make the Kindle 2 a >>> device that truly can be used both by blind and sighted readers. By >>> doing so, Amazon will make it possible for blind people to purchase >>> a new book and begin reading it immediately, just as sighted people >>> do." >>> >>> >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>> is the largest and most influential membership organization of >>> blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's >>> lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and >>> programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the >>> leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the >>> nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National >>> Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and >>> training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zufelt.ca >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From cdanielsen8 at aol.com Sat Feb 14 13:02:34 2009 From: cdanielsen8 at aol.com (Chris Danielsen) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 08:02:34 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to AuthorsGuild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What's at issue here is the definition of "an audio version of their work." I think you're absolutely right that an author has the right to control whether his work will be read by a voice actor and sold to the public, or whether it will be dramatized as a radio play. However, text-to-speech software reading an electronic text aloud isn't a separate or derivative work; it's merely a format shift. Now, if I generate a text-to-speech version of a book, convert it to an MP3 file, and sell it to my friends, then I've violated the author's copyright. But if I read that text-to-speech version in the privacy of my own home, I haven't. The Authors Guild is trying to say that reading aloud, when done by a machine, is somehow different from reading aloud when done, say, by a parent to his kids. In my opinion that's a distinction without a difference. Now, if that same parent invites the neighbors' kids over and charges their parents for the privilege of hearing him read a story, then you have a copyright violation, but not when he simply reads the story aloud in his home. And I think you're right that even if the authors could technically win on the audio version argument, the use of the text in a different format by a blind person would still be aprotected fair use. But I see that as a fallback argument, in case some court rules with the Authors Guild on the first issue. Patrick's argument relying on the betamax decision is I think the best analogy. If I remember right, the Betamax decision had to do with VCR's, and movie makers argued among other things that a person could generate illegal copies of a work using that technology. But the fact that a technology *can* be used for illegal purposes doesn't mean that all purposes for which it can be used are illegal. With VCR's, watching a video tape of a program in your own home was ruled to be legal; selling that video tape to someone else would have been illegal. But the studios were not allowed by the courts to take away the fair use rights of viewers simply because some people might abuse those rights. Authors and publishers want us to stick to the old model where a book has to be produced in a specialized format to be used by the blind. That model has served us reasonably well, but with today's technology there's simply no reason for it to be the *only* model. Ultimately, I want to be able to buy a brand new book from Amazon and read it right away, just like everyone else does. Whether I read it in Braille, via text-to-speech, or by some other means is not relevant to the discussion, as long as all I'm doing is reading the work for my own personal pleasure or edification. Authors and publishers want to slice the pie of rights as thinly as possible so that they can sell the same work more than once. They're afraid that text-to-speech will kill their ability to sell audio books. I don't think this is true. There are many times when a novel has been available both on Bookshare and on Audible and I've decided to buy the audio book because I prefer that fiction be read by a human reader; I'm not as picky about nonfiction. So I thik there's room for both formats. Chris -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:59 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to AuthorsGuild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 Good morning, I think that is reasonable for an author to be able to treat the right to a printed version of their work separately than the rights to an audio version of their work. However, it is also reasonable that visually impaired readers, or any otherwise textually impaired readers, be able to access a copy of the work in an accessible format. I don't think that these two propositions are in conflict with each other. When I was in school publishers would send me digital copies of their texts, while my classmates had to work with printed versions. If I were to share the digital copy with a student who had purchased the printed version I would be violating copyright, as I was granted a license to use the digital copy myself, and not to share it with outhers. Everett On 13-Feb-09, at 9:54 AM, Locke Milholland wrote: > * Moving your lips while reading in front of someone who can read lips > is therefore a copyright violation. > * allowing someone to read over your shoulder is a copyright > violation. > *Sitting on the beach and reading with reflective mirrored sunglasses > is a copyright violation. > *remembering what you read, is a copyright violation, if over 100 > words and/or not properly cited. > > Future litigation: > Timex v. guy who answered when asked for the time. > Rand Mcnally v. guy who gave directions MLB v. guy who told his friend > the score without the expressed written consent of Major League > Baseball and its affiliates > > Common sense v. copyright holders. > Locke > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Freeh,Jessica (by way of David Andrews )" > > > Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:38 PM > To: > Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Responds to > Authors Guild Statement on the Amazon Kindle 2 > >> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >> >> CONTACT: >> Chris Danielsen >> Director of Public Relations >> National Federation of the Blind >> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >> cdanielsen at nfb.org >> >> National Federation of the Blind Responds to Authors Guild Statement >> on the Amazon Kindle 2 >> >> Baltimore, Maryland (February 12, 2009): The National Federation of >> the Blind, the largest organization of blind people in the United >> States, today responded to a statement put out by the Authors Guild >> advising its members to consider negotiating contracts prohibiting >> e-books to be read aloud by the new Amazon Kindle 2, which >> incorporates text-to-speech technology. The Authors Guild argues that >> the reading of a book out loud by a machine is a copyright >> infringement unless the copyright holder has specifically granted >> permission for the book to be read aloud. >> >> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, >> said: "The National Federation of the Blind supports all technologies >> that allow blind people to have better access to the printed word, >> including the ability of devices like the Kindle 2 to read commercial >> e-books aloud using text-to-speech technology. >> Although the Authors Guild claims that it supports making books >> accessible to the blind, its position on the inclusion of text-to- >> speech technology in the Kindle 2 is harmful to blind people. The >> Authors Guild says that having a book read aloud by a machine in the >> privacy of one's home or vehicle is a copyright infringement. >> But blind people routinely use readers, either human or machine, to >> access books that are not available in alternative formats like >> Braille or audio. Up until now, no one has argued that this is >> illegal, but now the Authors Guild says that it is. This is >> absolutely wrong. The blind and other readers have the right for >> books to be presented to us in the format that is most useful to us, >> and we are not violating copyright law as long as we use readers, >> either human or machine, for private rather than public listening. >> The key point is that reading aloud in private is the same whether >> done by a person or a machine, and reading aloud in private is never >> an infringement of copyright. >> >> "Amazon has taken a step in the right direction by including text- >> to-speech technology for reading e-books aloud on its new Kindle 2," >> Dr. Maurer continued. "We note, however, that the device itself >> cannot be used independently by a blind reader because the controls >> to download a book and begin reading it aloud are visual and >> therefore inaccessible to the blind. We urge Amazon to rectify this >> situation as soon as possible in order to make the Kindle 2 a device >> that truly can be used both by blind and sighted readers. By doing >> so, Amazon will make it possible for blind people to purchase a new >> book and begin reading it immediately, just as sighted people do." >> >> >> >> ### >> >> >> >> About the National Federation of the Blind >> >> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >> is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force >> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In >> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >> United States for the blind led by the blind. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland >> %40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu > felt.ca _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3850 (20090213) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 15 08:05:37 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:05:37 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] personal stories needwed Message-ID: <651384D496BC4740A58ADDC7508A4614@spike> This is off topic but I'm forwarding from another list. Chuck ____________________________________ Subj: personal stories Please pass the word via list serves and your organization websites, etc. that I am looking for any person with a disability that has gone back to work or been rehired as a result of the economic recovery plan. For example, some company starts hiring again as a result of money they are going to receive or something like that. The sooner, the better if anyone exists. I simply don't have good access to all my contact lists so I need you all to expand my reach into the various communities. This is important and time sensitive. Might as well get use to hearing that over the next 4 years, but the community needs to be organized and ready to respond to things like this to help me facilitate full inclusion. Kareem Dale _kareemdale at sbcglobal.net From k7uij at panix.com Sun Feb 15 22:20:00 2009 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 14:20:00 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment References: Message-ID: <4B56081762904630A5F792A38C4FB849@owner96190708e> With respect, I disagree. Politicians know when organizations set up "action mills" to generate emails. What really matters to politicians is when they receive emails from persons in their specific districts and when the emails obviously have been personally composed by those doing the sending rather than as a form letter. There's no substitute for a bit of elbow grease. Mike Freeman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >legislative >action center where members and supporters could send emails or faxes >to >legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up I attempted >to >contact the offices of > Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. > As > my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have > time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when > legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to > prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an > organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the > organization is showing appreciation of the members continued > involvement > and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the > BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation >> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and >> most >> are >> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >> what >> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where >> the >> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason >> that >> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that >> we >> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway >> is >> like >> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >> mignon >> you will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like >> the >> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >> curious >> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >> American's >> are >> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way >> it is >> likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be >> replaced >> with >> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >> isn't >> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB >> press >> release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President >>> of >>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The >>> purpose >>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently >>> being >>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the >>> training >>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>> is >>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading >>> force >>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. >>> In >>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 16 04:32:25 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 20:32:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation oftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment In-Reply-To: <4B56081762904630A5F792A38C4FB849@owner96190708e> References: <4B56081762904630A5F792A38C4FB849@owner96190708e> Message-ID: Mike, if we lived in a perfect world you would be right. however, this type of approach is what is expected of advocacy organizations today. Legislative staff primarily tally the pro and con responses to a piece of legislation and let the legislator know. It is highly unlikely that the legislator will actually read a handwritten letter or personalized email from a constituent regarding an issue. In addition to being a paralegal I have also spent quite a bit of time as a political consultant and organizations if they are effective need to stay on top of cutting edge technology such as this. I personally receive such requests to submit personal emails or letters to legislators and due to my time constraints they generally get deleted without a response. I also feel that when an organization requests such a response and they don't make it easy they are undermining and disrespecting the value of my time. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation oftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment With respect, I disagree. Politicians know when organizations set up "action mills" to generate emails. What really matters to politicians is when they receive emails from persons in their specific districts and when the emails obviously have been personally composed by those doing the sending rather than as a form letter. There's no substitute for a bit of elbow grease. Mike Freeman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >legislative >action center where members and supporters could send emails or faxes >to >legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up I attempted >to >contact the offices of > Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. > As > my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have > time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when > legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to > prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an > organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the > organization is showing appreciation of the members continued > involvement > and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the > BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation >> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and >> most >> are >> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >> what >> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where >> the >> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason >> that >> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that >> we >> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway >> is >> like >> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >> mignon >> you will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like >> the >> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >> curious >> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >> American's >> are >> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way >> it is >> likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be >> replaced >> with >> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >> isn't >> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB >> press >> release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President >>> of >>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The >>> purpose >>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently >>> being >>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the >>> training >>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>> is >>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading >>> force >>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. >>> In >>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Mon Feb 16 17:00:24 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:00:24 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation oftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment References: <4B56081762904630A5F792A38C4FB849@owner96190708e> Message-ID: Michael, I don't disagree with you either. However, I know for a fact that the number of emails, faxes, phone calls, etc, do make their impression. My point is simply that the more arrows we have in the quiver, the better off we are. If the cost of generating another avenue through which our members can get messages to DC is not prohibitive, we ought to do it. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation oftheBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment With respect, I disagree. Politicians know when organizations set up "action mills" to generate emails. What really matters to politicians is when they receive emails from persons in their specific districts and when the emails obviously have been personally composed by those doing the sending rather than as a form letter. There's no substitute for a bit of elbow grease. Mike Freeman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-CollinsAmendment That is an excellent idea and I will recommend it to those who can implement it. You are right to say that the easier you can make it for people to send a note etc, the likelihood that they will do so goes way up. Incidentally, one of the people who implements our governmental affairs action is James McCarthy and he is subscribed to this list. Are you out there Jim? What say you? Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of theBlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >I posted on another list that it would be helpful if NFB had a >legislative >action center where members and supporters could send emails or faxes >to >legislators on issues such as this. Today when this came up I attempted >to >contact the offices of > Senators Boxer and Feinstein and was unsuccessful due to busy signals. > As > my time is valuable I only was able to do it once. Usually when I have > time to respond to such issues it is at night or on week ends when > legislative offices are not open. I personally do not have the time to > prepare emails or letters on numerous pieces of legislation. When an > organization provides such a service to its members and supporter the > organization is showing appreciation of the members continued > involvement > and support on such issues. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Danielsen" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the > BlindRejectsNelson-Collins Amendment > > >> Hi Everett, >> >> The money that would be stripped out of the stimulus package by the >> Nelson-Collins amendment is slated to go to state vocational >> rehabilitation >> agencies. Some state VR agencies are very good, some are awful, and >> most >> are >> probably somewhere in between. But many of them are currently cutting >> what >> services they do offer because of the economy. Even in states where >> the >> services blind people receive are not the best, it stands to reason >> that >> those services will not improve if they are cut further. Saying that >> we >> shouldn't fight the amendment because the services are lousy anyway >> is >> like >> saying you're starving, but then saying that if you can't have filet >> mignon >> you will pass on bread and water. >> >> I'm curious to know what you mean when you say that you do not like >> the >> language in NFB press releases. Is it the language you dislike or the >> policies it represents? I'm not asking to be sarcastic; I'm really >> curious >> about what it is specifically about the language that you dislike. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt >> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:00 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind >> RejectsNelson-Collins Amendment >> >> Good evening, >> >> I doubt that by rejecting the amendment >> that all Americans will have the training and insentive to work. >> Since an overwhelming majority of blind and visually impaired >> American's >> are >> unemployed under the current system then leaving the system the way >> it is >> likely isn't the best idea. >> >> Perhaps the system needs more funding, perhaps it needs to be >> replaced >> with >> something better, but the current system at the current funding level >> isn't >> working. I really dislike the language used in almost every NFB >> press >> release. >> >> Everett >> >> On 6-Feb-09, at 4:35 PM, Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews >> > >) wrote: >> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Rejects Nelson-Collins Amendment >>> >>> Urges Senate to Retain Rehabilitation Funding >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (February 6, 2009): Dr. Marc Maurer, President >>> of >>> the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest >>> organization of blind people in the United States, said: "The >>> purpose >>> of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 currently >>> being >>> debated in the United States Senate is to reduce unemployment and to >>> restore economic security for all Americans. In order to accomplish >>> this goal for Americans who are blind or have other disabilities, >>> state vocational rehabilitation programs must be adequately funded. >>> The National Federation of the Blind urges all members of the United >>> States Senate to reject the Nelson-Collins Amendment and retain the >>> $500 million currently allocated for vocational rehabilitation. By >>> doing so, the Senate will ensure that all Americans have the >>> training >>> needed to work and contribute to this nation's economic prosperity." >>> >>> # # # >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>> is >>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >>> people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >>> through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >>> encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading >>> force >>> in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. >>> In >>> January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind >>> Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the >>> United States for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/everett%40zu >>> felt.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol. >> com >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature >> database 3834 (20090206) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com From bnaccari at cox.net Mon Feb 16 22:18:06 2009 From: bnaccari at cox.net (Bruce E. Naccari) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:18:06 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Setting up an automated NFB email advocacy service with action alerts Message-ID: <20090216171806.SQBCM.572877.imail@eastrmwml10> Most organizations that offer members an easy service on their website for sending advocacy or opposition emails to representatives or other officials use software that permits personalization and editing of the offered form or model message. However unless a staffer calls a particular email to the attention of a public official on the federal level a particular email –which probably never happens except in the case of an email with extraordinary information not otherwise known or an eamail from a VIP, a person very important to that official such as a local elected official , party leader, major organization leader or contributor, most emails will never be seen by the elected official or other high official. As with letters from most writers all the Congresspersons or others will likely get is a tally of total emails categorized according to time period and position taken. Any Congressperson who read all her emails and mail herself would be able to do nothing else. Therefore I think such automated systems that make it very easy with one click to send an email are indeed useful for generating high pro or con tallies. The best systems allow one simply after pre-registration to send all subsequent emails by entering one’ semail address and clicking send; the other information about the sender is included automaticallly in the message. That is my opinion and experience in emailing/writing/calling federal, state executive and Congressional officers. In the case of local government or small agencies and also state representatives in smaller states however an individual who is not a “VIP” can often expect personal attention from the targeted officer and should avoid form emails or letters. From qmsingleton at comcast.net Tue Feb 17 10:44:07 2009 From: qmsingleton at comcast.net (Quintina M. Singleton) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 04:44:07 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Thruoureyes with Joe Ruffalo Announcement, Jim McCarthy Interview Message-ID: The next "Thruoureyes with Joe Ruffalo" live internet radio show is scheduled for February 18, 2009 at 8:00 PM EST. Mr. Ruffalo will be interviewing director of governmental affairs for the National Federation of the Blind, James McCarthy. A brief summary of this year's Washington Seminar, what listeners could be doing to assist in legislative initiatives presently, and advisement concerning how to stay informed with legislative issues year round are topics that will be discussed on the evening's show. I invite you to visit www.thruoureyes.org or to hear the program live via telephone dial 201 793 9022 with the access code: 2400484. From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 18 00:04:57 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:04:57 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] FCC seeks comments regarding delivery of videoprogramming Message-ID: <15FC4A9BD8D5447CB36551CD2DF7FC06@spike> this may be of interest. Chuck The following information is sent as a public service by AudioVision. We hope you can share this information with those who have diminished vision. The Federal Communications Commission is asking for your comments for their Annual Assessment of the Status of Competition in the Market for the Delivery of Video Programming (http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2009/02/11/3981295.htm). This might be something that description consumers are interested in (especially in light of some of the recent discussions about description availability or lack thereof), and description is addressed specifically in number 17 on the list of comment requests by the FCC: "We also invite comment to provide information on access to programming by persons with disabilities. We seek comment on what, if any, concerns industry and the public have with meeting these increased captioning requirements for new Spanish language and "pre-rule" English language programming. We also seek information on the level and quality of captioning for non-English language programming. We seek information on the quality, accuracy, placement, technology, and any instances of missing or delayed captions, and the amount of digital programming that contains closed captions translated from analog closed captions. We seek comment on the extent to which digital programming may not be captioned and ask why this is the case. We seek information on the availability of video description services, currently provided by programmers on a voluntary basis and the amount and types of video programming that includes video descriptions and whether MVPDs generally carry video descriptions inserted by programmers" Please note that the deadline for submitting comments is February 27th. Contact info for the Federal Communications Commission is below: E-MAIL Commissioner Michael J. Copps: Michael.Copps at fcc.gov Commissioner Jonathan S. Adelstein: Jonathan.Adelstein at fcc.gov Commissioner Robert McDowell: Robert.McDowell at fcc.gov PHONE 1-888-225-5322 Voice: toll-free 1-888-835-5322 TTY: toll-free MAIL Federal Communications Commission 445 12th Street, SW Washington, DC 20554 John Harris AudioVision 1-866-297-7623 Movies and TV for those who can't see. From dandrews at visi.com Wed Feb 18 19:22:24 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:22:24 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Through Our Eyes Radio Program Interview Change Message-ID: We previously announced that Joe Ruffalo of Through Our Eyes Radio would be interviewing NFB's Legislative Director Jim McCarthy on Wednesday February 18th. Unfortunately, due to technical malfunctions it is necessary to reschedule this interview. We will place an appropriate announcement on NFBNET.ORG lists when we know when the rescheduled interview will take place. We and Through Our Eyes Radio apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause you. David Andrews David Andrews and white cane Harry. From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Feb 19 15:27:14 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 08:27:14 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Message-ID: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. From ericholm at att.net Thu Feb 19 19:43:19 2009 From: ericholm at att.net (ericholm at att.net) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:43:19 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC In-Reply-To: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> Message-ID: <002401c992ca$51207320$f3615960$@net> Great job Scott, keep up the good fight. Thanks, Eric Eric Holm, J.D. ericholm at att.net -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 7:27 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ericholm%40att.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3868 (20090219) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3868 (20090219) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Thu Feb 19 20:35:37 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:35:37 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Target Class Action Lawsuit In-Reply-To: <002401c992ca$51207320$f3615960$@net> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <002401c992ca$51207320$f3615960$@net> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B27D@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Hi Folks, I was wondering what is going on with the Target Class action case in California? The web site says nothing about what happened at the court hearing that I recall was set for sometime in late January. So is there any sort of update available? Sincerely, Tim Ford From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Feb 19 21:32:54 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:32:54 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint Message-ID: Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California Court. ************** LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) Disability Rights Advocates 2001 Center Street, Third Floor Berkeley, California 94704 Telephone: (510) 665-8644 Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 TTY: (510) 665-8716 SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 Denver, Colo 80222 Telephone: (303) 504-5979 Fax: (303) 757-3640 DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 Baltimore, MD 21202 Telephone: (410) 962-1030 Fax: (410) 385-0869 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA COUNTY OF ALAMEDA National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the Blind of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, Plaintiffs, v. LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., Defendant. Case No.: COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF THE CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT INTRODUCTION Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, seeks to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law School Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to take the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind law school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal access to the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, advantages and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test preparation materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers that make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and LSAT test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities, and privileges of lsac.org. JURISDICTION 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons Act (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and California Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates its website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. VENUE 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the acts alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights of patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons in Alameda County. 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and practice materials. PARTIES 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter "NFB") is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico. The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind persons. The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive agencies of government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on behalf of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to promote the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their efforts to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) removing barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created by blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have long been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, so that blind persons can live and work independently in today's technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United States, including the state of California, and many of its members would use the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by the blind. 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation and carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its headquarters in Fremont, California, in Alameda County. 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school admissions process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided by LSAC in California through lsac.org. FACTS 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. Lsac.org is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive services for applying to law school. The website functions as the official destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, lsac.org offers information about the LSAT and law school application process, and extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also serves as the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to ABA-accredited law schools. 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable prospective law students to do the following, among other things: a.. Register for the LSAT b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law schools e.. Apply online to law schools f.. Register for law school forums g.. Have 24-hour file access 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and the opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits and advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. Goraya, have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently apply to law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org. 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction with screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a refreshable Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind persons are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, products and services contained therein. 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at least several years and have been followed successfully by other public accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web Consortium, which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines have long been readily available via the internet so that any public accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent free and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading software. These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow users to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize the requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online law school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack these fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to the website cannot independently use those and other critical features. 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on the website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly "tagged." This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions and form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As a result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind visitor to navigate. 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, available as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than 40 formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer the opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible to the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary hurdles to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared to their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select and rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of the website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. Lsac.org thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access to Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and facilities of lsac.org. 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the Blind notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. LSAC responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are incorporated by reference. 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals with disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the general public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other places to which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, is an accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general public is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to blind people in an accessible format. SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are incorporated by reference. 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC and lsac.org. 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the rights of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or obvious that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to blind people in an accessible format. THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are incorporated by reference. 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this time in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and duties and act accordingly. WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. RELIEF REQUESTED WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining and/or operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required by law; 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs as authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil Procedure § 1021.5. 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems just and proper. DATED: DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES By: ____________________________ Laurence W. Paradis Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: clip_image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1054 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Thu Feb 19 21:36:51 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:36:51 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC In-Reply-To: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> Message-ID: <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you or the NFB plan to take in these matters? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1960 - Release Date: 02/19/09 10:48:00 From roddj12 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 19 22:04:29 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:04:29 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint References: Message-ID: Scott: Thanks for your work on these issues. Whenever we are venturing in Pennsylvania again, as we did in federal court in 97, I am willing to help out. By then I should already pass the bar and be admitted. This nonsense has to stop; this is the year 2009. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:32 PM Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Feb 19 22:15:26 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:15:26 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> Message-ID: <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> I know that we have been working on a number of projects to increase access to websites that use systems like you suggest. Often times, such access barriers are tied up with others. I would suggest that you contact our access technology department, consult the Braille Monitor, review the monthly Presidential releases, visit our website, for more answers. We are aware of many problems with access issues. However, it is very aken to answering the question of how one eats an elephant. It's one bite at a time. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you or the NFB plan to take in these matters? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1960 - Release Date: 02/19/09 10:48:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 19 22:19:52 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:19:52 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC In-Reply-To: <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> Message-ID: This is a good question that needs to be addressed. Although there has been a partial solution that has been developed for people who use Firefox Internet browser. An add on called Webvisum has beern developed that will read some of the captcha format that is used in some of these sites. While it is not flawless it helps to rectify the problem. information can be obtained at http//www.webvisum.com. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you or the NFB plan to take in these matters? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1960 - Release Date: 02/19/09 10:48:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From JWilson at nfb.org Thu Feb 19 22:24:43 2009 From: JWilson at nfb.org (Wilson, Joanne) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:24:43 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate Message-ID: ---------- From: Brammer, Robert [AG] [mailto:rbrammer at ag.state.ia.us] Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:53 PM To: Brammer, Robert [AG] Subject: Atty. Gen. release: Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate To News Editors. From Bob Brammer (Iowa Attorney General’s Office – 515-281-6699.) Please find a release pasted below. This will be posted soon at www.IowaAttorneyGeneral.org . A jury entered a verdict Wednesday in this case in Polk County District Court. Best regards, Bram ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- For immediate release – Thursday, February 19, 2009. Contact Bob Brammer – 515-281-6699 Jury finds Iowa Department for the Blind’s Guide Dog Policy Does Not Discriminate Des Moines. A Polk County jury has rejected a Des Moines woman’s claim that the State of Iowa Department for the Blind discriminated against her by refusing her request to use a guide dog while she attended the Department’s orientation and adjustment training program. The Department for the Blind orientation and training program is a comprehensive program that utilizes a totally non-visual approach to teaching blindness skills. Students with partial vision are required to wear eyeshades to prevent reliance upon any visual cues during training. Department policies prohibit the use of any visual aids within the orientation and training program, including guide dogs. The Department has no objection to guide dogs in other situations. Stephanie Dohmen, who is legally blind, attended the program for several months beginning in September 2000 and sought to re-enter the program in June 2002 accompanied by her guide dog. Dohmen claimed in her lawsuit that the Department’s policy violated her rights under the Iowa Civil Rights Act and under federal laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of disability. After a six-day trial, the eight-person jury rejected Dohmen’s claims in a verdict entered Wednesday. The Department for the Blind, which was represented in the trial by the Iowa Attorney General’s Office, argued that a totally non-visual approach – and training without assistance of a guide-dog or other visual aids – is the most effective approach for visually-impaired persons who are learning skills and techniques for dealing with blindness. The Department places no limitations upon the use of guide dogs in other settings, including in the Department for the Blind building in downtown Des Moines. For example, Karen Keninger, the Director of the Department, uses a guide dog, and the dog accompanied Keninger during her testimony at the trial. The orientation program typically includes about six months of full-time training in various problem-solving skills, such as cane-travel on public streets, using Braille, using computers, and dealing with many other situations. The Department for the Blind’s orientation and adjustment program was established in 1959 and is considered by many to be one of the most effective in the country. During the trial, the State Department for the Blind presented testimony from Joanne Wilson and Frederic K. Schroeder, each a former Commissioner of the U.S. Rehabilitation Services Administration, which oversees programs for the blind around the country. “Iowa’s orientation program profoundly changes lives,” said Wilson, who also is Executive Director of the National Federation of the Blind. “It works. It’s a cutting-edge program and a model for other states.” Wilson is a Webster City native and ISU graduate who went through the Iowa Department for the Blind’s orientation program herself. Schroeder said: “To me the central point is that individuals have a choice in the type of training they take. While programs must and should make reasonable accommodations, they cannot be required to alter the fundamentals of the program.” - 30 - From mikefry79 at gmail.com Thu Feb 19 22:42:33 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:42:33 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902191442u47023b47mdc67643350d1cc4a@mail.gmail.com> Kudo's Mr. LaBarre. I didn't know you were tight with DRA. Needless to say I hope it's a winner. I'm looking forward to hearing you speak in June at the ABA Confrence in DC. Mike u, Feb 19, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California Court. > ************** > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > Disability Rights Advocates > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the Blind > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > Plaintiffs, > > v. > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > Defendant. > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF THE > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, seeks > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law School > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to take > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind law > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal access to > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, advantages > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test preparation > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers that > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and LSAT > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities, > and privileges of lsac.org. > > JURISDICTION > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons Act > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. Civ. > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and California > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates its > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > VENUE > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the acts > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights of > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons in > Alameda County. > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and practice > materials. > > PARTIES > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter "NFB") > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico. > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind persons. > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive agencies of > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on behalf > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to promote > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their efforts > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) removing > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created by > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have long > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, so > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > States, including the state of California, and many of its members would use > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by > the blind. > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation and > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its headquarters in > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to the > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school admissions > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided by > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > FACTS > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. Lsac.org > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive services > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application process, and > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also serves as > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to > ABA-accredited law schools. > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > a.. Register for the LSAT > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > schools > e.. Apply online to law schools > f.. Register for law school forums > g.. Have 24-hour file access > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and the > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits and > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. Goraya, > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently apply to > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org. > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction with > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a refreshable > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind persons > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > products and services contained therein. > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at least > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web Consortium, > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent free > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading software. > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow users > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize the > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online law > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack these > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to the > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on the > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly "tagged." > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions and > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As a > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind > visitor to navigate. > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, available > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than 40 > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer the > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible to > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary hurdles > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared to > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select and > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of the > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. Lsac.org > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access to > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and > facilities of lsac.org. > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the Blind > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. LSAC > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals with > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the general > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other places to > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, is > an > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general public > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal access > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to > blind people in an accessible format. > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and equal > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC and > lsac.org. > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the rights > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or obvious > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this time > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and > duties and act accordingly. > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining and/or > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required by > law; > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs as > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., California > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > Procedure § 1021.5. > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems just > and proper. > > > > DATED: > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > By: > ____________________________ > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > > From angie at mpmail.net Thu Feb 19 23:56:25 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:56:25 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Would someone please explain this nonstandard use of the term "visual aid" to me? My dog is not a powerpoint presentation. Thanks, Angie From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Thu Feb 19 23:57:38 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:57:38 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable system video recorders used by all those companies. The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you have done. Sincerely, Tim Ford From mhanson at winternet.com Fri Feb 20 00:23:03 2009 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:23:03 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policydoes not discriminate References: <200902192352.n1JNpxr4028462@janus2.bpsi.net> Message-ID: <45DBA70152D1478A806A0C686733A8F9@hp048378e4c43a> Good question. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policydoes not discriminate > Would someone please explain this nonstandard use of the term "visual aid" > to me? My dog is not a powerpoint presentation. > > Thanks, > > Angie > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Fri Feb 20 00:54:43 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:54:43 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC In-Reply-To: <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> Message-ID: <8BC8E38398994BDFA21D1E6D6D5078AD@StevePC> Thank you! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I know that we have been working on a number of projects to increase access to websites that use systems like you suggest. Often times, such access barriers are tied up with others. I would suggest that you contact our access technology department, consult the Braille Monitor, review the monthly Presidential releases, visit our website, for more answers. We are aware of many problems with access issues. However, it is very aken to answering the question of how one eats an elephant. It's one bite at a time. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you or the NFB plan to take in these matters? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1960 - Release Date: 02/19/09 10:48:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1961 - Release Date: 02/19/09 18:45:00 From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Fri Feb 20 00:55:27 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:55:27 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC In-Reply-To: References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> Message-ID: <5D951DFDAA934C9C8E57EE876A26B07C@StevePC> Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC This is a good question that needs to be addressed. Although there has been a partial solution that has been developed for people who use Firefox Internet browser. An add on called Webvisum has beern developed that will read some of the captcha format that is used in some of these sites. While it is not flawless it helps to rectify the problem. information can be obtained at http//www.webvisum.com. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you or the NFB plan to take in these matters? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1960 - Release Date: 02/19/09 10:48:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1961 - Release Date: 02/19/09 18:45:00 From jbar at barcore.com Fri Feb 20 00:55:39 2009 From: jbar at barcore.com (Jim Barbour) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:55:39 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: <20090220005538.GB23939@barcore.com> I'm curious, what would be the legal basis be for a suit against Dish, comcast, Direct TV, etc? Jim On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 03:57:38PM -0800, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com From lmilholland at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 01:02:41 2009 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:02:41 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: I have an old VCR, made by Zenith, that speaks every function. It is the only VCR I have had where I could set it to record in the future, and set up the options after the power went out. The difference is the data never changed. With Disha nd Direct TV, Tivo and other DVR systems is the continually changing data. That would require more effort, but definitely possible. Locke -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com > From rjs59 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 01:27:46 2009 From: rjs59 at hotmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:27:46 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> Message-ID: Scott, Couldn't the other Side say that Blind people have been attending law school for years, and haven't had any problems? If I were a juror, who knew nothing about blindness I'd probley be asking this question. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I know that we have been working on a number of projects to increase access to websites that use systems like you suggest. Often times, such access barriers are tied up with others. I would suggest that you contact our access technology department, consult the Braille Monitor, review the monthly Presidential releases, visit our website, for more answers. We are aware of many problems with access issues. However, it is very aken to answering the question of how one eats an elephant. It's one bite at a time. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you or the NFB plan to take in these matters? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Greetings: I am part of the legal team filing this complaint today and thought the list would be interested in the below release. ***************** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.1/1960 - Release Date: 02/19/09 10:48:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjs59%40hotmail.com From roddj12 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 02:11:06 2009 From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:11:06 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 20 05:33:50 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:33:50 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: <99DA7EA9B3B44B2B893F5D98375FE5F3@spike> This applies to most advanced digital satellite or cable systems. I know that with Comcast everything is done with touch screen choices that are impossible for a blind person to use. Apparently Comcast has no solution for this problem nor will they until they like other cable and satellite television providers are made to come up with one. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 3:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 07:12:45 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:12:45 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC In-Reply-To: <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> Message-ID: <20090220071245.GC91686@yumi.bluecherry.net> Respectfully, it might make more sense to try to build up some precedent BEFORE trying to go after the whole internet. Joseph On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 04:36:51PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the > web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen > prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing > merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are > not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site > is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you > or the NFB plan to take in these matters? > > > Steve From AZNOR99 at aol.com Fri Feb 20 12:05:51 2009 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 07:05:51 EST Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes Message-ID: I was at a seminar a few weeks ago, and Dr. Maurer specifically mentioned the lack of accessibility of televisions, cable, and satelite services. Thus, the NFB is aware of the problem and is exploring the best manner in which to resolve it for blind people. If you care strongly about this issue, I suggest you call the National Center or Scott and discuss it with Dr. Maurer or Scott. My experience is they are both very responsive. Ronza In a message dated 2/19/2009 10:28:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, roddj12 at hotmail.com writes: If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) From AZNOR99 at aol.com Fri Feb 20 12:10:28 2009 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 07:10:28 EST Subject: [blindlaw] NFB sues LSAC Message-ID: Try kaptchakiller.com. It is pretty good. Ronza In a message dated 2/20/2009 3:23:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, carter.tjoseph at gmail.com writes: Respectfully, it might make more sense to try to build up some precedent BEFORE trying to go after the whole internet. Joseph On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 04:36:51PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > I would like to know what your legal team plans to do about all of the > web sites mandating that you inter the numbers you see on the screen > prior to signing on to the site, blogging on the site, or purchasing > merchandise.. These numbers, from what I've been able to determine are > not accessible if you are using a screen reader; therefore, the web site > is not accessible. I would be very interested in hearing what action you > or the NFB plan to take in these matters? > > > Steve _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) From rjaquiss at earthlink.net Fri Feb 20 13:13:13 2009 From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 07:13:13 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes References: <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <20090220005538.GB23939@barcore.com> Message-ID: <60490511C85B4224AB885740D6A78F59@D3DTZP41> Hello Jim and List: On a DISH receiver, it is possible to order Pay For View movies. Would this fact make a DISH receiver a place of business? Also audio described content is not available or at least I haven't been able to get it. Regards, Robert Jaquiss, Member Committee on Research and DEvelopment National Federation of the Blind Email: rjaquiss at earthlink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Barbour" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > I'm curious, what would be the legal basis be for a suit against Dish, > comcast, Direct TV, etc? > > Jim > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 03:57:38PM -0800, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: >> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete >> lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? >> I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable >> system video recorders used by all those companies. >> >> The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating >> system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a >> button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task >> to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is >> a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH >> Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate >> their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. >> >> Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it >> involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary >> depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even >> with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you >> have done. >> >> Sincerely, >> Tim Ford >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net From rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 14:37:43 2009 From: rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 06:37:43 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A81EAA6A818464291283D8BB0E96405@RJT> A possible option--a global approach to the accessibility of consumer products by comprehensive legislation. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:06 AM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes I was at a seminar a few weeks ago, and Dr. Maurer specifically mentioned the lack of accessibility of televisions, cable, and satelite services. Thus, the NFB is aware of the problem and is exploring the best manner in which to resolve it for blind people. If you care strongly about this issue, I suggest you call the National Center or Scott and discuss it with Dr. Maurer or Scott. My experience is they are both very responsive. Ronza In a message dated 2/19/2009 10:28:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, roddj12 at hotmail.com writes: If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail. com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=htt p:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo .com From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Feb 20 15:57:23 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 08:57:23 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] national law journal article on suit against LSAC Message-ID: <1F585E6C1BF04ADE802A82848A100315@labarre> Greetings: Below I am pasting a National Law Journal article on the lawsuit we filed yesterday. Because I have been on the team dealing with this, I want folks to know that we first wrote LSAC a letter in December. Joan Vantol got in touch with Dr. Maurer to set up a meeting in Baltimore for January 26th. A few days before, she abruptly canceled the meeting and only stated that she would be in touch at some point to reschedule. We remain open to conducting negotiations with LSAC, but our first obligation is to protect the rights of blind/visually impaired individuals affected by these and similar practices. *********** Blind law student sues Law School Admissions Council over accessibility Sheri Qualters / Staff reporter February 20, 2009 The National Federation of the Blind and a blind law school applicant filed a discrimination lawsuit against the national law school admissions test administrator, The Law School Admissions Council, in a California Superior Court. The lawsuit, which was filed on Feb. 19 in Alameda County, claims that the Newtown, Pa.-based admissions council violates two California laws requiring equal access to disabled persons because its Web site and Law School Admission Test (LSAT) preparation materials are inaccessible to the blind. National Federation of the Blind v. Law School Admissions Council Inc., No. RG-09436691 (Alameda Co., Calif., Super. Ct.). The lawsuit's claims include alleged violations of California's Disabled Persons Act and California's Unruh Act, which requires businesses to offer equal accommodations and facilities to disabled persons. The plaintiffs are also asking the court for a declaratory judgment stating that California laws require the admissions council to provide blind persons equal access to its Web site. The federation has successfully targeted corporations with inadequate Web site accessibility for the blind. Last August, retailer Target Corp. agreed to change its Web site and establish a $6 million claims fund to settle a discrimination class action brought by the federation. National Federation of the Blind v. Target, No. 06-01802 (N.D. Calif.). [NLJ, 8-28-08.] In September, Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley and the federation negotiated a deal with Apple Inc. to make Apple's iTunes and iTunes U fully accessible to the blind. [NLJ 9-30-08.] The Law School Admissions Council is "engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind" said the blind federation's president, Marc Maurer, in a statement. "For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field," stated Maurer. "The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted." The admissions council generally does not comment on pending lawsuits, but decided to make an exception in this case to express its disappointment, said general counsel Joan Van Tol. The council is disappointed that the federation chose to litigate "when we fully expected to address their concerns through productive meetings." Van Tol also said the council has been working on setting up a meeting at the federation's offices "so they could demonstrate new assistive technologies that we'd like to learn about." Here is a link to the article: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202428419045 Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. From mikefry79 at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 16:34:59 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 08:34:59 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] national law journal article on suit against LSAC In-Reply-To: <1F585E6C1BF04ADE802A82848A100315@labarre> References: <1F585E6C1BF04ADE802A82848A100315@labarre> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902200834k33bebe96vd691edc22145f484@mail.gmail.com> That'll teach her to rudly cancel a meeting at the last minute and not reschedule. I bet she's just getting an idea what she's in for. On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: > Greetings: > > Below I am pasting a National Law Journal article on the lawsuit we filed > yesterday. Because I have been on the team dealing with this, I want folks > to know that we first wrote LSAC a letter in December. Joan Vantol got in > touch with Dr. Maurer to set up a meeting in Baltimore for January 26th. A > few days before, she abruptly canceled the meeting and only stated that she > would be in touch at some point to reschedule. We remain open to conducting > negotiations with LSAC, but our first obligation is to protect the rights of > blind/visually impaired individuals affected by these and similar practices. > *********** > > > Blind law student sues Law School Admissions Council over accessibility > > Sheri Qualters / Staff reporter > February 20, 2009 > > > The National Federation of the Blind and a blind law school applicant filed > a discrimination lawsuit against the national law school admissions test > administrator, The Law School Admissions Council, in a California Superior > Court. > > The lawsuit, which was filed on Feb. 19 in Alameda County, claims that the > Newtown, Pa.-based admissions council violates two California laws requiring > equal access to disabled persons because its Web site and Law School > Admission Test (LSAT) preparation materials are inaccessible to the blind. > National Federation of the Blind v. Law School Admissions Council Inc., No. > RG-09436691 (Alameda Co., Calif., Super. Ct.). > > The lawsuit's claims include alleged violations of California's Disabled > Persons Act and California's Unruh Act, which requires businesses to offer > equal accommodations and facilities to disabled persons. The plaintiffs are > also asking the court for a declaratory judgment stating that California > laws require the admissions council to provide blind persons equal access to > its Web site. > > The federation has successfully targeted corporations with inadequate Web > site accessibility for the blind. Last August, retailer Target Corp. agreed > to change its Web site and establish a $6 million claims fund to settle a > discrimination class action brought by the federation. National Federation > of the Blind v. Target, No. 06-01802 (N.D. Calif.). [NLJ, 8-28-08.] > > In September, Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley and the > federation negotiated a deal with Apple Inc. to make Apple's iTunes and > iTunes U fully accessible to the blind. [NLJ 9-30-08.] > > The Law School Admissions Council is "engaging in blatant discrimination > against the blind" said the blind federation's president, Marc Maurer, in a > statement. > > "For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal > profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field," > stated Maurer. "The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly > while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind > people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted." > > The admissions council generally does not comment on pending lawsuits, but > decided to make an exception in this case to express its disappointment, > said general counsel Joan Van Tol. > > The council is disappointed that the federation chose to litigate "when we > fully expected to address their concerns through productive meetings." Van > Tol also said the council has been working on setting up a meeting at the > federation's offices "so they could demonstrate new assistive technologies > that we'd like to learn about." > > Here is a link to the article: > http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202428419045 > > > > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From JFreeh at nfb.org Fri Feb 20 19:06:22 2009 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 13:06:22 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org LSAC Discriminates Against Blind Law School Applicants National Federation of the Blind Sues Law School Admissions Council for Inaccessible Web Site and LSAT Preparation Materials Baltimore, Maryland (February 19, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people; its California affiliate; and a blind law school applicant, Deepa Goraya, are filing a lawsuit today against the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC). The complaint asserts that the LSAC, the body that administers the Law School Admissions Test (which most aspiring law students must take) and provides other services to law schools and law school applicants, violates the California Disabled Persons Act and the Unruh Act because its Web site (www.lsac.org) and LSAT preparation materials are inaccessible to blind law school applicants. The plaintiffs have attempted to meet with the LSAC to resolve the matter, but the LSAC canceled a planned meeting. Blind people access Web sites on computers equipped with screen access software that converts what is on the screen into synthesized speech or Braille. The keyboard is used instead of a mouse to navigate the Web site and click on selected links or buttons. If a Web site is improperly coded, however, blind computer users cannot access the site. Blind people can also use screen readers to access certain kinds of electronic documents, including those in the popular Portable Document Format (PDF). However, if PDF files are not properly "tagged," they cannot be used by the blind. The LSAC Web site contains accessibility barriers including improperly formatted online forms, tables and charts that cannot be read by screen access software, and faulty keyboard navigation support. These access barriers make it difficult or impossible for blind people to use the Web site to register to take the LSAT, among other things. The Web site is also the only avenue for people to apply online to any law school accredited by the American Bar Association. However, blind applicants cannot submit their applications without sighted assistance because the application forms are improperly formatted. In addition, none of the LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of the test that sighted people can obtain on the LSAC Web site, are available in accessible electronic formats. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The Internet is extremely useful to blind people, as well as our sighted peers, when Web sites are properly formatted according to well-established guidelines; there is no good reason for any Web site offering goods and services to the public to be inaccessible to blind people. For too long, blind people have experienced barriers to entering the legal profession, despite our long history of demonstrated success in that field. The National Federation of the Blind will not sit quietly while the LSAC willfully refuses to provide the same services to blind people seeking admission to law school that it does to the sighted. The LSAC is engaging in blatant discrimination against the blind and we will not stand for it." Deepa Goraya, a law school applicant and named plaintiff in the suit, said: "Trying to use the LSAC Web site made the experience of applying to law school a nightmare when it should have been as easy for me as for anyone else. I had to select and rely upon a reader for over fifty hours to complete my law school applications. Also, none of the practice tests available on the Web site were accessible. I want the process of gaining admission to law school to be easier for all blind people who are interested in entering this noble profession, and I hope this action will achieve that goal." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. From JMcCarthy at nfb.org Fri Feb 20 19:41:46 2009 From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org (McCarthy, Jim) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:41:46 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <60490511C85B4224AB885740D6A78F59@D3DTZP41> Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B26D5A7@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> I imagine that the arguments related to whether or not the web is a place of accommodations would be applied to this situation. The other issue is that I am not aware of anyone who has demonstrated a ready-for-market product for making these accessible. Many of us believe it is more than possible but I am not aware of anyone who has put the technology out on the market. That probably makes the ADA not a reasonable approach to this issue. That is only my opinion and others might differ. I believe it was Russell Thomas who suggested a global legislative approach in an earlier post on this thread. At our recently completed Washington Seminar, the NFB promoted as one of our legislative issues what we called a Technology Bill of Rights for the Blind. I will attached the fact sheet for that issue to this email. We are in the very early stages with this and our final outcome may differ significantly from this approach, but I think this is a good starting place and is a reasonable summary of the issues and possible solutions. Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert Jaquiss Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:13 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes Hello Jim and List: On a DISH receiver, it is possible to order Pay For View movies. Would this fact make a DISH receiver a place of business? Also audio described content is not available or at least I haven't been able to get it. Regards, Robert Jaquiss, Member Committee on Research and DEvelopment National Federation of the Blind Email: rjaquiss at earthlink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Barbour" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > I'm curious, what would be the legal basis be for a suit against Dish, > comcast, Direct TV, etc? > > Jim > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 03:57:38PM -0800, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: >> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete >> lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? >> I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable >> system video recorders used by all those companies. >> >> The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating >> system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a >> button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task >> to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is >> a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH >> Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate >> their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. >> >> Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it >> involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary >> depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even >> with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you >> have done. >> >> Sincerely, >> Tim Ford >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore .com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40ear thlink.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf b.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 03-A Technology Bill of Rights for the Blind Fact Sheet 2009.doc Type: application/msword Size: 35840 bytes Desc: 03-A Technology Bill of Rights for the Blind Fact Sheet 2009.doc URL: From mar.cra at comcast.net Fri Feb 20 20:47:37 2009 From: mar.cra at comcast.net (Craig R. Anderson) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 20:47:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1373948790.680151235162857168.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I don't own a guide dog but nonetheless think the policy at issue in this case to be both legally unsound (why did they need a jury here anyway?) and otherwise quite preposterous. It's supposedly illegal for a governmental entity to deny services to an otherwise eligible recipient solely because the recipient uses a service animal. This is true despite any justification the program's operator may advance for the discrimination. A judge could clearly not get away with excluding from his courtroom a blind witness/lawyer/juror with a guide dog by claiming that the dog's presence would disrupt solemn judicial proceedings. Similarly, a rehab agency ought not be heard to say that a client's use of a guide dog would require some undue alteration of itgs orientation program. That program's purpose, after all, should be not so much to imbue uninitiated participants with a pre-packaged "philosophy" as to impart relevant skills a student hasn't previously learned. A client with a guide dog might well thus dispense with the curriculum's cane travel component and concentrate instead on Braille or computer training -- activities with which noone seriously suggests a dog can interfere. I can't fathom what would be so bad about such tailoring of an orientation program. Regards. Craig---- Joanne Wilson wrote: > > ---------- > From: Brammer, Robert [AG] [mailto:rbrammer at ag.state.ia.us] > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:53 PM > To: Brammer, Robert [AG] > Subject: Atty. Gen. release: Jury finds IA Dept. > for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate > > To News Editors. From Bob Brammer (Iowa > Attorney General’s Office – 515-281-6699.) > Please find a release pasted below. This will be > posted soon at > www.IowaAttorneyGeneral.org > . A jury entered a verdict Wednesday in this > case in Polk County District Court. > Best regards, Bram > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For immediate release – Thursday, February 19, 2009. > Contact Bob Brammer – 515-281-6699 > > Jury finds Iowa Department for the Blind’s > Guide Dog Policy Does Not Discriminate > > Des Moines. A Polk County jury has > rejected a Des Moines woman’s claim that the > State of Iowa Department for the Blind > discriminated against her by refusing her request > to use a guide dog while she attended the > Department’s orientation and adjustment training program. > > The Department for the Blind > orientation and training program is a > comprehensive program that utilizes a totally > non-visual approach to teaching blindness > skills. Students with partial vision are > required to wear eyeshades to prevent reliance > upon any visual cues during training. Department > policies prohibit the use of any visual aids > within the orientation and training program, > including guide dogs. The Department has no > objection to guide dogs in other situations. > > Stephanie Dohmen, who is legally > blind, attended the program for several months > beginning in September 2000 and sought to > re-enter the program in June 2002 accompanied by her guide dog. > > Dohmen claimed in her lawsuit that > the Department’s policy violated her rights under > the Iowa Civil Rights Act and under federal laws > that prohibit discrimination on the basis of disability. > > After a six-day trial, the > eight-person jury rejected Dohmen’s claims in a verdict entered Wednesday. > > > The Department for the Blind, which > was represented in the trial by the Iowa Attorney > General’s Office, argued that a totally > non-visual approach – and training without > assistance of a guide-dog or other visual aids – > is the most effective approach for > visually-impaired persons who are learning skills > and techniques for dealing with blindness. > > The Department places no limitations > upon the use of guide dogs in other settings, > including in the Department for the Blind > building in downtown Des Moines. For example, > Karen Keninger, the Director of the Department, > uses a guide dog, and the dog accompanied > Keninger during her testimony at the trial. > > The orientation program typically > includes about six months of full-time training > in various problem-solving skills, such as > cane-travel on public streets, using Braille, > using computers, and dealing with many other situations. > > The Department for the Blind’s > orientation and adjustment program was > established in 1959 and is considered by many to > be one of the most effective in the country. > > During the trial, the State > Department for the Blind presented testimony from > Joanne Wilson and Frederic K. Schroeder, each a > former Commissioner of the U.S. Rehabilitation > Services Administration, which oversees programs > for the blind around the country. > > “Iowa’s orientation program > profoundly changes lives,” said Wilson, who also > is Executive Director of the National Federation > of the Blind. “It works. It’s a cutting-edge > program and a model for other states.” Wilson is > a Webster City native and ISU graduate who went > through the Iowa Department for the Blind’s orientation program herself. > > Schroeder said: “To me the central > point is that individuals have a choice in the > type of training they take. While programs must > and should make reasonable accommodations, they > cannot be required to alter the fundamentals of the program.” > > - 30 - > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net From chatter8712 at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 21:10:48 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (Shane D) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:10:48 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate In-Reply-To: <1373948790.680151235162857168.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1373948790.680151235162857168.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <7556b95a0902201310g59e8125dga9b83331566ccba2@mail.gmail.com> I agree. I just think, from reading, that the express purpose of this training was to volluntarily learn to live with no guide dog or cane. To show up with one and then call it discrimination sounds extremely stupid to me. You signed up. On 2/20/09, Craig R. Anderson wrote: > I don't own a guide dog but nonetheless think the policy at issue in this > case to be both legally unsound (why did they need a jury here anyway?) and > otherwise quite preposterous. It's supposedly illegal for a governmental > entity to deny services to an otherwise eligible recipient solely because > the recipient uses a service animal. This is true despite any justification > the program's operator may advance for the discrimination. A judge could > clearly not get away with excluding from his courtroom a blind > witness/lawyer/juror with a guide dog by claiming that the dog's presence > would disrupt solemn judicial proceedings. Similarly, a rehab agency ought > not be heard to say that a client's use of a guide dog would require some > undue alteration of itgs orientation program. That program's purpose, after > all, should be not so much to imbue uninitiated participants with a > pre-packaged "philosophy" as to impart relevant skills a student hasn't > previously learned. A client with a guide dog might well thus dispense with > the curriculum's cane travel component and concentrate instead on Braille or > computer training -- activities with which noone seriously suggests a dog > can interfere. I can't fathom what would be so bad about such tailoring of > an orientation program. Regards. > > Craig---- Joanne Wilson wrote: >> >> ---------- >> From: Brammer, Robert [AG] [mailto:rbrammer at ag.state.ia.us] >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:53 PM >> To: Brammer, Robert [AG] >> Subject: Atty. Gen. release: Jury finds IA Dept. >> for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate >> >> To News Editors. From Bob Brammer (Iowa >> Attorney General's Office – 515-281-6699.) >> Please find a release pasted below. This will be >> posted soon at >> www.IowaAttorneyGeneral.org >> . A jury entered a verdict Wednesday in this >> case in Polk County District Court. >> Best regards, Bram >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> For immediate release – Thursday, February 19, 2009. >> Contact Bob Brammer – 515-281-6699 >> >> Jury finds Iowa Department for the Blind's >> Guide Dog Policy Does Not Discriminate >> >> Des Moines. A Polk County jury has >> rejected a Des Moines woman's claim that the >> State of Iowa Department for the Blind >> discriminated against her by refusing her request >> to use a guide dog while she attended the >> Department's orientation and adjustment training program. >> >> The Department for the Blind >> orientation and training program is a >> comprehensive program that utilizes a totally >> non-visual approach to teaching blindness >> skills. Students with partial vision are >> required to wear eyeshades to prevent reliance >> upon any visual cues during training. Department >> policies prohibit the use of any visual aids >> within the orientation and training program, >> including guide dogs. The Department has no >> objection to guide dogs in other situations. >> >> Stephanie Dohmen, who is legally >> blind, attended the program for several months >> beginning in September 2000 and sought to >> re-enter the program in June 2002 accompanied by her guide dog. >> >> Dohmen claimed in her lawsuit that >> the Department's policy violated her rights under >> the Iowa Civil Rights Act and under federal laws >> that prohibit discrimination on the basis of disability. >> >> After a six-day trial, the >> eight-person jury rejected Dohmen's claims in a verdict entered Wednesday. >> >> >> The Department for the Blind, which >> was represented in the trial by the Iowa Attorney >> General's Office, argued that a totally >> non-visual approach – and training without >> assistance of a guide-dog or other visual aids – >> is the most effective approach for >> visually-impaired persons who are learning skills >> and techniques for dealing with blindness. >> >> The Department places no limitations >> upon the use of guide dogs in other settings, >> including in the Department for the Blind >> building in downtown Des Moines. For example, >> Karen Keninger, the Director of the Department, >> uses a guide dog, and the dog accompanied >> Keninger during her testimony at the trial. >> >> The orientation program typically >> includes about six months of full-time training >> in various problem-solving skills, such as >> cane-travel on public streets, using Braille, >> using computers, and dealing with many other situations. >> >> The Department for the Blind's >> orientation and adjustment program was >> established in 1959 and is considered by many to >> be one of the most effective in the country. >> >> During the trial, the State >> Department for the Blind presented testimony from >> Joanne Wilson and Frederic K. Schroeder, each a >> former Commissioner of the U.S. Rehabilitation >> Services Administration, which oversees programs >> for the blind around the country. >> >> "Iowa's orientation program >> profoundly changes lives," said Wilson, who also >> is Executive Director of the National Federation >> of the Blind. "It works. It's a cutting-edge >> program and a model for other states." Wilson is >> a Webster City native and ISU graduate who went >> through the Iowa Department for the Blind's orientation program herself. >> >> Schroeder said: "To me the central >> point is that individuals have a choice in the >> type of training they take. While programs must >> and should make reasonable accommodations, they >> cannot be required to alter the fundamentals of the program." >> >> - 30 - >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 20 21:36:40 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 13:36:40 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <7A81EAA6A818464291283D8BB0E96405@RJT> References: <7A81EAA6A818464291283D8BB0E96405@RJT> Message-ID: this sounds like a good idea as so many of the devices are manufactured in places like China. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 6:37 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > A possible option--a global approach to the accessibility of consumer > products by comprehensive legislation. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of AZNOR99 at aol.com > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:06 AM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > I was at a seminar a few weeks ago, and Dr. Maurer specifically mentioned > the lack of accessibility of televisions, cable, and satelite services. > Thus, > the NFB is aware of the problem and is exploring the best manner in which > to > resolve it for blind people. If you care strongly about this issue, I > suggest you call the National Center or Scott and discuss it with Dr. > Maurer > or > Scott. My experience is they are both very responsive. > > Ronza > > > > In a message dated 2/19/2009 10:28:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > roddj12 at hotmail.com writes: > > If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed > through > law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts > have > > to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. > > Rod Alcidonis > Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. > Roger Williams University School of Law > 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 > Bristol, RI 02809 > Cell: 718-704-4651 > Home: 401-824-8685 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > >> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete >> lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? >> I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable >> system video recorders used by all those companies. >> >> The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating >> system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a >> button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task >> to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is >> a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH >> Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate >> their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. >> >> Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it >> involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary >> depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even >> with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you >> have done. >> >> Sincerely, >> Tim Ford >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail. > com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aznor99%40aol.com > > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 > easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=htt > p:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID > %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo > .com > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV Fri Feb 20 21:43:48 2009 From: Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV (Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:43:48 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Visual Aide Message-ID: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1615A64@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov> I am of the opinion, that this "nonstandard" use of the term visual aid means, in context, anyone or anything with vision being used as an aid. To me, the crux of this issue is whether a program designed to teach blind persons how to function independently of sight means that the skills must be learned without any *visual* aid. Bennett Prows, J.D. Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:56:25 -0500 From: "Angie Matney" Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Would someone please explain this nonstandard use of the term "visual aid" to me? My dog is not a powerpoint presentation. From mikefry79 at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 22:41:08 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:41:08 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902201310g59e8125dga9b83331566ccba2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1373948790.680151235162857168.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <7556b95a0902201310g59e8125dga9b83331566ccba2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902201441k2f0a9cc7td1448bc13604dc72@mail.gmail.com> Yea Shane, I agree man. The whole point of the program seems to be to not use a guide dog. On the other hand, the lady's probably very sensitve. If she wants to use her dog, what's the big deal? Asnwering this question would probably shed light on the courts ruling. On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Shane D wrote: > I agree. I just think, from reading, that the express purpose of this > training was to volluntarily learn to live with no guide dog or cane. > To show up with one and then call it discrimination sounds extremely > stupid to me. You signed up. > > On 2/20/09, Craig R. Anderson wrote: > > I don't own a guide dog but nonetheless think the policy at issue in this > > case to be both legally unsound (why did they need a jury here anyway?) > and > > otherwise quite preposterous. It's supposedly illegal for a > governmental > > entity to deny services to an otherwise eligible recipient solely because > > the recipient uses a service animal. This is true despite any > justification > > the program's operator may advance for the discrimination. A judge could > > clearly not get away with excluding from his courtroom a blind > > witness/lawyer/juror with a guide dog by claiming that the dog's presence > > would disrupt solemn judicial proceedings. Similarly, a rehab agency > ought > > not be heard to say that a client's use of a guide dog would require some > > undue alteration of itgs orientation program. That program's purpose, > after > > all, should be not so much to imbue uninitiated participants with a > > pre-packaged "philosophy" as to impart relevant skills a student hasn't > > previously learned. A client with a guide dog might well thus dispense > with > > the curriculum's cane travel component and concentrate instead on Braille > or > > computer training -- activities with which noone seriously suggests a dog > > can interfere. I can't fathom what would be so bad about such tailoring > of > > an orientation program. Regards. > > > > Craig---- Joanne Wilson wrote: > >> > >> ---------- > >> From: Brammer, Robert [AG] [mailto:rbrammer at ag.state.ia.us] > >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:53 PM > >> To: Brammer, Robert [AG] > >> Subject: Atty. Gen. release: Jury finds IA Dept. > >> for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate > >> > >> To News Editors. From Bob Brammer (Iowa > >> Attorney General's Office – 515-281-6699.) > >> Please find a release pasted below. This will be > >> posted soon at > >> www.IowaAttorneyGeneral.org > >> . A jury entered a verdict Wednesday in this > >> case in Polk County District Court. > >> Best regards, Bram > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> For immediate release – Thursday, February 19, 2009. > >> Contact Bob Brammer – 515-281-6699 > >> > >> Jury finds Iowa Department for the Blind's > >> Guide Dog Policy Does Not Discriminate > >> > >> Des Moines. A Polk County jury has > >> rejected a Des Moines woman's claim that the > >> State of Iowa Department for the Blind > >> discriminated against her by refusing her request > >> to use a guide dog while she attended the > >> Department's orientation and adjustment training program. > >> > >> The Department for the Blind > >> orientation and training program is a > >> comprehensive program that utilizes a totally > >> non-visual approach to teaching blindness > >> skills. Students with partial vision are > >> required to wear eyeshades to prevent reliance > >> upon any visual cues during training. Department > >> policies prohibit the use of any visual aids > >> within the orientation and training program, > >> including guide dogs. The Department has no > >> objection to guide dogs in other situations. > >> > >> Stephanie Dohmen, who is legally > >> blind, attended the program for several months > >> beginning in September 2000 and sought to > >> re-enter the program in June 2002 accompanied by her guide dog. > >> > >> Dohmen claimed in her lawsuit that > >> the Department's policy violated her rights under > >> the Iowa Civil Rights Act and under federal laws > >> that prohibit discrimination on the basis of disability. > >> > >> After a six-day trial, the > >> eight-person jury rejected Dohmen's claims in a verdict entered > Wednesday. > >> > >> > >> The Department for the Blind, which > >> was represented in the trial by the Iowa Attorney > >> General's Office, argued that a totally > >> non-visual approach – and training without > >> assistance of a guide-dog or other visual aids – > >> is the most effective approach for > >> visually-impaired persons who are learning skills > >> and techniques for dealing with blindness. > >> > >> The Department places no limitations > >> upon the use of guide dogs in other settings, > >> including in the Department for the Blind > >> building in downtown Des Moines. For example, > >> Karen Keninger, the Director of the Department, > >> uses a guide dog, and the dog accompanied > >> Keninger during her testimony at the trial. > >> > >> The orientation program typically > >> includes about six months of full-time training > >> in various problem-solving skills, such as > >> cane-travel on public streets, using Braille, > >> using computers, and dealing with many other situations. > >> > >> The Department for the Blind's > >> orientation and adjustment program was > >> established in 1959 and is considered by many to > >> be one of the most effective in the country. > >> > >> During the trial, the State > >> Department for the Blind presented testimony from > >> Joanne Wilson and Frederic K. Schroeder, each a > >> former Commissioner of the U.S. Rehabilitation > >> Services Administration, which oversees programs > >> for the blind around the country. > >> > >> "Iowa's orientation program > >> profoundly changes lives," said Wilson, who also > >> is Executive Director of the National Federation > >> of the Blind. "It works. It's a cutting-edge > >> program and a model for other states." Wilson is > >> a Webster City native and ISU graduate who went > >> through the Iowa Department for the Blind's orientation program herself. > >> > >> Schroeder said: "To me the central > >> point is that individuals have a choice in the > >> type of training they take. While programs must > >> and should make reasonable accommodations, they > >> cannot be required to alter the fundamentals of the program." > >> > >> - 30 - > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 20 22:44:34 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:44:34 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policydoes not discriminate In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902201310g59e8125dga9b83331566ccba2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1373948790.680151235162857168.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <7556b95a0902201310g59e8125dga9b83331566ccba2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2888ED7A95A34558AD63D495DD32A0AD@spike> Actually, the purpose of rehabilitation programs such as this one is for people who have never adequately developed adjustment or independent living skills to blindness. If a person has already managed to obtain a guide dog and gone through the appropriate training I question with the diminished availability of resources in most states if they really need to participate in such a comprehensive program as this or ones like it. Chuck. It sounds like a person who has ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane D" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policydoes not discriminate I agree. I just think, from reading, that the express purpose of this training was to volluntarily learn to live with no guide dog or cane. To show up with one and then call it discrimination sounds extremely stupid to me. You signed up. On 2/20/09, Craig R. Anderson wrote: > I don't own a guide dog but nonetheless think the policy at issue in this > case to be both legally unsound (why did they need a jury here anyway?) > and > otherwise quite preposterous. It's supposedly illegal for a governmental > entity to deny services to an otherwise eligible recipient solely because > the recipient uses a service animal. This is true despite any > justification > the program's operator may advance for the discrimination. A judge could > clearly not get away with excluding from his courtroom a blind > witness/lawyer/juror with a guide dog by claiming that the dog's presence > would disrupt solemn judicial proceedings. Similarly, a rehab agency > ought > not be heard to say that a client's use of a guide dog would require some > undue alteration of itgs orientation program. That program's purpose, > after > all, should be not so much to imbue uninitiated participants with a > pre-packaged "philosophy" as to impart relevant skills a student hasn't > previously learned. A client with a guide dog might well thus dispense > with > the curriculum's cane travel component and concentrate instead on Braille > or > computer training -- activities with which noone seriously suggests a dog > can interfere. I can't fathom what would be so bad about such tailoring > of > an orientation program. Regards. > > Craig---- Joanne Wilson wrote: >> >> ---------- >> From: Brammer, Robert [AG] [mailto:rbrammer at ag.state.ia.us] >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:53 PM >> To: Brammer, Robert [AG] >> Subject: Atty. Gen. release: Jury finds IA Dept. >> for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate >> >> To News Editors. From Bob Brammer (Iowa >> Attorney General's Office – 515-281-6699.) >> Please find a release pasted below. This will be >> posted soon at >> www.IowaAttorneyGeneral.org >> . A jury entered a verdict Wednesday in this >> case in Polk County District Court. >> Best regards, Bram >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> For immediate release – Thursday, February 19, 2009. >> Contact Bob Brammer – 515-281-6699 >> >> Jury finds Iowa Department for the Blind's >> Guide Dog Policy Does Not Discriminate >> >> Des Moines. A Polk County jury has >> rejected a Des Moines woman's claim that the >> State of Iowa Department for the Blind >> discriminated against her by refusing her request >> to use a guide dog while she attended the >> Department's orientation and adjustment training program. >> >> The Department for the Blind >> orientation and training program is a >> comprehensive program that utilizes a totally >> non-visual approach to teaching blindness >> skills. Students with partial vision are >> required to wear eyeshades to prevent reliance >> upon any visual cues during training. Department >> policies prohibit the use of any visual aids >> within the orientation and training program, >> including guide dogs. The Department has no >> objection to guide dogs in other situations. >> >> Stephanie Dohmen, who is legally >> blind, attended the program for several months >> beginning in September 2000 and sought to >> re-enter the program in June 2002 accompanied by her guide dog. >> >> Dohmen claimed in her lawsuit that >> the Department's policy violated her rights under >> the Iowa Civil Rights Act and under federal laws >> that prohibit discrimination on the basis of disability. >> >> After a six-day trial, the >> eight-person jury rejected Dohmen's claims in a verdict entered >> Wednesday. >> >> >> The Department for the Blind, which >> was represented in the trial by the Iowa Attorney >> General's Office, argued that a totally >> non-visual approach – and training without >> assistance of a guide-dog or other visual aids – >> is the most effective approach for >> visually-impaired persons who are learning skills >> and techniques for dealing with blindness. >> >> The Department places no limitations >> upon the use of guide dogs in other settings, >> including in the Department for the Blind >> building in downtown Des Moines. For example, >> Karen Keninger, the Director of the Department, >> uses a guide dog, and the dog accompanied >> Keninger during her testimony at the trial. >> >> The orientation program typically >> includes about six months of full-time training >> in various problem-solving skills, such as >> cane-travel on public streets, using Braille, >> using computers, and dealing with many other situations. >> >> The Department for the Blind's >> orientation and adjustment program was >> established in 1959 and is considered by many to >> be one of the most effective in the country. >> >> During the trial, the State >> Department for the Blind presented testimony from >> Joanne Wilson and Frederic K. Schroeder, each a >> former Commissioner of the U.S. Rehabilitation >> Services Administration, which oversees programs >> for the blind around the country. >> >> "Iowa's orientation program >> profoundly changes lives," said Wilson, who also >> is Executive Director of the National Federation >> of the Blind. "It works. It's a cutting-edge >> program and a model for other states." Wilson is >> a Webster City native and ISU graduate who went >> through the Iowa Department for the Blind's orientation program herself. >> >> Schroeder said: "To me the central >> point is that individuals have a choice in the >> type of training they take. While programs must >> and should make reasonable accommodations, they >> cannot be required to alter the fundamentals of the program." >> >> - 30 - >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From jduncanhines at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 23:29:13 2009 From: jduncanhines at gmail.com (joe hines) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:29:13 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policydoes not discriminate References: <1373948790.680151235162857168.JavaMail.root@sz0094a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><7556b95a0902201310g59e8125dga9b83331566ccba2@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902201441k2f0a9cc7td1448bc13604dc72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d601c993b3$0adb40e0$6401a8c0@93LRNC1> but has she developed her indepence on the dog hence, She uses it as I would my cane? I would be lost without it so is her dog the same? Joe Hines jduncanhines at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Fry" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog policydoes not discriminate Yea Shane, I agree man. The whole point of the program seems to be to not use a guide dog. On the other hand, the lady's probably very sensitve. If she wants to use her dog, what's the big deal? Asnwering this question would probably shed light on the courts ruling. On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Shane D wrote: > I agree. I just think, from reading, that the express purpose of this > training was to volluntarily learn to live with no guide dog or cane. > To show up with one and then call it discrimination sounds extremely > stupid to me. You signed up. > > On 2/20/09, Craig R. Anderson wrote: > > I don't own a guide dog but nonetheless think the policy at issue in > > this > > case to be both legally unsound (why did they need a jury here anyway?) > and > > otherwise quite preposterous. It's supposedly illegal for a > governmental > > entity to deny services to an otherwise eligible recipient solely > > because > > the recipient uses a service animal. This is true despite any > justification > > the program's operator may advance for the discrimination. A judge > > could > > clearly not get away with excluding from his courtroom a blind > > witness/lawyer/juror with a guide dog by claiming that the dog's > > presence > > would disrupt solemn judicial proceedings. Similarly, a rehab agency > ought > > not be heard to say that a client's use of a guide dog would require > > some > > undue alteration of itgs orientation program. That program's purpose, > after > > all, should be not so much to imbue uninitiated participants with a > > pre-packaged "philosophy" as to impart relevant skills a student hasn't > > previously learned. A client with a guide dog might well thus dispense > with > > the curriculum's cane travel component and concentrate instead on > > Braille > or > > computer training -- activities with which noone seriously suggests a > > dog > > can interfere. I can't fathom what would be so bad about such tailoring > of > > an orientation program. Regards. > > > > Craig---- Joanne Wilson wrote: > >> > >> ---------- > >> From: Brammer, Robert [AG] [mailto:rbrammer at ag.state.ia.us] > >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:53 PM > >> To: Brammer, Robert [AG] > >> Subject: Atty. Gen. release: Jury finds IA Dept. > >> for Blind's guide dog policy does not discriminate > >> > >> To News Editors. From Bob Brammer (Iowa > >> Attorney General's Office – 515-281-6699.) > >> Please find a release pasted below. This will be > >> posted soon at > >> www.IowaAttorneyGeneral.org > >> . A jury entered a verdict Wednesday in this > >> case in Polk County District Court. > >> Best regards, Bram > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> For immediate release – Thursday, February 19, 2009. > >> Contact Bob Brammer – 515-281-6699 > >> > >> Jury finds Iowa Department for the Blind's > >> Guide Dog Policy Does Not Discriminate > >> > >> Des Moines. A Polk County jury has > >> rejected a Des Moines woman's claim that the > >> State of Iowa Department for the Blind > >> discriminated against her by refusing her request > >> to use a guide dog while she attended the > >> Department's orientation and adjustment training program. > >> > >> The Department for the Blind > >> orientation and training program is a > >> comprehensive program that utilizes a totally > >> non-visual approach to teaching blindness > >> skills. Students with partial vision are > >> required to wear eyeshades to prevent reliance > >> upon any visual cues during training. Department > >> policies prohibit the use of any visual aids > >> within the orientation and training program, > >> including guide dogs. The Department has no > >> objection to guide dogs in other situations. > >> > >> Stephanie Dohmen, who is legally > >> blind, attended the program for several months > >> beginning in September 2000 and sought to > >> re-enter the program in June 2002 accompanied by her guide dog. > >> > >> Dohmen claimed in her lawsuit that > >> the Department's policy violated her rights under > >> the Iowa Civil Rights Act and under federal laws > >> that prohibit discrimination on the basis of disability. > >> > >> After a six-day trial, the > >> eight-person jury rejected Dohmen's claims in a verdict entered > Wednesday. > >> > >> > >> The Department for the Blind, which > >> was represented in the trial by the Iowa Attorney > >> General's Office, argued that a totally > >> non-visual approach – and training without > >> assistance of a guide-dog or other visual aids – > >> is the most effective approach for > >> visually-impaired persons who are learning skills > >> and techniques for dealing with blindness. > >> > >> The Department places no limitations > >> upon the use of guide dogs in other settings, > >> including in the Department for the Blind > >> building in downtown Des Moines. For example, > >> Karen Keninger, the Director of the Department, > >> uses a guide dog, and the dog accompanied > >> Keninger during her testimony at the trial. > >> > >> The orientation program typically > >> includes about six months of full-time training > >> in various problem-solving skills, such as > >> cane-travel on public streets, using Braille, > >> using computers, and dealing with many other situations. > >> > >> The Department for the Blind's > >> orientation and adjustment program was > >> established in 1959 and is considered by many to > >> be one of the most effective in the country. > >> > >> During the trial, the State > >> Department for the Blind presented testimony from > >> Joanne Wilson and Frederic K. Schroeder, each a > >> former Commissioner of the U.S. Rehabilitation > >> Services Administration, which oversees programs > >> for the blind around the country. > >> > >> "Iowa's orientation program > >> profoundly changes lives," said Wilson, who also > >> is Executive Director of the National Federation > >> of the Blind. "It works. It's a cutting-edge > >> program and a model for other states." Wilson is > >> a Webster City native and ISU graduate who went > >> through the Iowa Department for the Blind's orientation program > >> herself. > >> > >> Schroeder said: "To me the central > >> point is that individuals have a choice in the > >> type of training they take. While programs must > >> and should make reasonable accommodations, they > >> cannot be required to alter the fundamentals of the program." > >> > >> - 30 - > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mar.cra%40comcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jduncanhines%40gmail.com From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Sun Feb 22 15:32:47 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 07:32:47 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I mention the satellite and cable boxes because they are so wide-spread. I also suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there are probably very few differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer variability as compared with a typical computer system. Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotm ail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov From lmilholland at hotmail.com Sun Feb 22 16:17:31 2009 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:17:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Other List info In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: Would someone please send the information for signing up for the technology list serve? Thanks, Locke From mikefry79 at gmail.com Sun Feb 22 17:15:18 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:15:18 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902220915u60ff23b4q94b60c4d500fb438@mail.gmail.com> It seems cable box accessibility is relevant to more visually impaired people than LSAC accessibility. On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: > I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I mention > the satellite and cable boxes because they are so wide-spread. I also > suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there are probably very few > differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. > Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or > easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen > reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech > output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer > variability as compared with a typical computer system. > > Tim Ford > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed > through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our > efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. > > Rod Alcidonis > Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. > Roger Williams University School of Law > 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 > Bristol, RI 02809 > Cell: 718-704-4651 > Home: 401-824-8685 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > > > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video > tuner/recorder? > > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and > cable > > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it > is > > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could > operate > > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of > it > > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what > you > > have done. > > > > Sincerely, > > Tim Ford > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotm > ail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp > h.ca.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Sun Feb 22 17:19:02 2009 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:19:02 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: <8F15CC49962E4E4A8E22200BA926D9D1@owner96190708e> The message below assumes that the boxes employ standard representations of text rather than graphics; even the best screen-reading software generally requires an "off-screen model" or, if not that, a way to get at straight text. If only a graphical representation of the data is present, we're blown out of the water unless and until we can persuade box manufacturers that there is an advantage to having on-board text representation of the data. Mike Freeman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 7:32 AM Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I mention the satellite and cable boxes because they are so wide-spread. I also suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there are probably very few differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer variability as compared with a typical computer system. Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotm ail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From dandrews at visi.com Sun Feb 22 19:14:13 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:14:13 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Other List info In-Reply-To: References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: We have several technology-related lists, gui-talk, nfb in computer science, and promotion of technology -- which is mostly announcements. They all can be found at www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo The main one is probably gui-talk -- to subscribe either go to: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org or send e-mail to gui-talk-request at nfbnet.org and put the word subscribe in the subject line. Dave At 10:17 AM 2/22/2009, you wrote: >Would someone please send the information for signing up for the >technology list serve? >Thanks, >Locke > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.2/1965 - Release Date: >02/21/09 15:36:00 From fairall at shellworld.net Sun Feb 22 20:21:01 2009 From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:21:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902220915u60ff23b4q94b60c4d500fb438@mail.gmail.com> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <8c58e54a0902220915u60ff23b4q94b60c4d500fb438@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually, I think the LSAC issue is more important than making cable boxes accessible to blind people. While most blind people have either cable or satellite TV, 70% of us are still unemployed. Ensuring that a blind person can enter a profession and support themselves is more important than access to entertainment such as as cable and satellite TV boxes and remotes. I own a couple of satellite radio receivers, and they're not fully accessible either. However, these are for my entertainment pleasure, not my life's work. On Sun, 22 Feb 2009, Michael Fry wrote: > It seems cable box accessibility is relevant to more visually impaired > people than LSAC accessibility. > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) > wrote: > >> I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I mention >> the satellite and cable boxes because they are so wide-spread. I also >> suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there are probably very few >> differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. >> Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or >> easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen >> reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech >> output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer >> variability as compared with a typical computer system. >> >> Tim Ford >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes >> >> If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed >> through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our >> efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. >> >> Rod Alcidonis >> Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. >> Roger Williams University School of Law >> 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 >> Bristol, RI 02809 >> Cell: 718-704-4651 >> Home: 401-824-8685 >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes >> >> >>> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete >>> lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video >> tuner/recorder? >>> I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and >> cable >>> system video recorders used by all those companies. >>> >>> The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating >>> system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a >>> button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task >>> to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it >> is >>> a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH >>> Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could >> operate >>> their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. >>> >>> Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of >> it >>> involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary >>> depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even >>> with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what >> you >>> have done. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Tim Ford >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotm >> ail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp >> h.ca.gov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40shellworld.net > > From lmilholland at hotmail.com Sun Feb 22 20:46:28 2009 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:46:28 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Other List info In-Reply-To: References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: Thanks, I appear to be signed up. Locke -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Andrews" Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 2:14 PM To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Other List info > We have several technology-related lists, gui-talk, nfb in computer > science, and promotion of technology -- which is mostly announcements. > They all can be found at www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo > > The main one is probably gui-talk -- to subscribe either go to: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org > > or send e-mail to gui-talk-request at nfbnet.org and put the word subscribe > in the subject line. > > Dave > > At 10:17 AM 2/22/2009, you wrote: >>Would someone please send the information for signing up for the >>technology list serve? >>Thanks, >>Locke >> >>_______________________________________________ >>blindlaw mailing list >>blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>blindlaw: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >> >> >> >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.2/1965 - Release Date: 02/21/09 >>15:36:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com > From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Mon Feb 23 01:28:28 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:28:28 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><8c58e54a0902220915u60ff23b4q94b60c4d500fb438@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B292@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> I suggest that the two matters are so very different that they should not be directly compared. Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Leslie Fairall Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 12:21 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes Actually, I think the LSAC issue is more important than making cable boxes accessible to blind people. While most blind people have either cable or satellite TV, 70% of us are still unemployed. Ensuring that a blind person can enter a profession and support themselves is more important than access to entertainment such as as cable and satellite TV boxes and remotes. I own a couple of satellite radio receivers, and they're not fully accessible either. However, these are for my entertainment pleasure, not my life's work. On Sun, 22 Feb 2009, Michael Fry wrote: > It seems cable box accessibility is relevant to more visually impaired > people than LSAC accessibility. > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) > wrote: > >> I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I >> mention the satellite and cable boxes because they are so >> wide-spread. I also suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there >> are probably very few differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. >> Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or >> easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen >> reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech >> output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer >> variability as compared with a typical computer system. >> >> Tim Ford >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes >> >> If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed >> through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. >> Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. >> >> Rod Alcidonis >> Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. >> Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 >> Bristol, RI 02809 >> Cell: 718-704-4651 >> Home: 401-824-8685 >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes >> >> >>> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the >>> complete lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video >> tuner/recorder? >>> I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and >> cable >>> system video recorders used by all those companies. >>> >>> The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an >>> operating system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow >>> options, a button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not >>> be a hard task to put speech output into that operating system, >>> especially since it >> is >>> a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH >>> Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could >> operate >>> their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. >>> >>> Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest >>> of >> it >>> involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary >>> depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done >>> even with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming >>> what >> you >>> have done. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Tim Ford >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40h >> otm >> ail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40 >> cdp >> h.ca.gov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%4 >> 0gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40sh > ellworld.net > > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Mon Feb 23 01:33:10 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:33:10 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <8F15CC49962E4E4A8E22200BA926D9D1@owner96190708e> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <8F15CC49962E4E4A8E22200BA926D9D1@owner96190708e> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B293@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> That's what I get for trying to apply my very low level of computer knowledge! Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 9:19 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes The message below assumes that the boxes employ standard representations of text rather than graphics; even the best screen-reading software generally requires an "off-screen model" or, if not that, a way to get at straight text. If only a graphical representation of the data is present, we're blown out of the water unless and until we can persuade box manufacturers that there is an advantage to having on-board text representation of the data. Mike Freeman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 7:32 AM Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I mention the satellite and cable boxes because they are so wide-spread. I also suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there are probably very few differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer variability as compared with a typical computer system. Tim Ford -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. Rod Alcidonis Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 Bristol, RI 02809 Cell: 718-704-4651 Home: 401-824-8685 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video tuner/recorder? > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and cable > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it is > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could operate > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of it > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what you > have done. > > Sincerely, > Tim Ford > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotm ail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix. com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp h.ca.gov From b75205 at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 01:47:32 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:47:32 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre> <4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC> <6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: The state of accessibility is extremely new and very hard to get into if you are an independent operator. Not only do you have to invent the new technology, you have to convince people who really do not want to deal with the idea of change, to change. You have to explain to IT personnel that the practices they have been doing for many years are completely useless. They do not want to admit to failure. So if you are expecting change overnight, forget it. The US government uses the oldest software they can get to make things accessible. It is a mess. So even if the software exists that doesn't mean they know how to use it. Just because some people got lucky and designed a device to be accessible doesn't mean that everyone knows how to do it and for accessibility to work you need people who actually know how to do it an they are very rare! James On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: > I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I mention > the satellite and cable boxes because they are so wide-spread. I also > suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there are probably very few > differences inside the various boxes in terms of the basic technology. > Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or > easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen > reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech > output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer > variability as compared with a typical computer system. > > Tim Ford > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed > through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. Our > efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. > > Rod Alcidonis > Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. > Roger Williams University School of Law > 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 > Bristol, RI 02809 > Cell: 718-704-4651 > Home: 401-824-8685 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes > > > > If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the complete > > lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video > tuner/recorder? > > I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and > cable > > system video recorders used by all those companies. > > > > The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an operating > > system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow options, a > > button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not be a hard task > > to put speech output into that operating system, especially since it > is > > a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH > > Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could > operate > > their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. > > > > Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest of > it > > involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary > > depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done even > > with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming what > you > > have done. > > > > Sincerely, > > Tim Ford > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotm > ail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp > h.ca.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 02:06:30 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:06:30 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination Message-ID: Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man actually said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and the hiring person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of insurance costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more than anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and besides that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what he did was about as illegal as you can get! I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just so I know what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to his boss telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of him. James From fairall at shellworld.net Mon Feb 23 12:06:59 2009 From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:06:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes In-Reply-To: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B292@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> References: <0703D991027944159D2B7B006BB25F07@labarre><4328A0DBE27948B68312D991DBBBD43B@StevePC><6648A6CF6F0142AEAED369940FE2C7A6@labarre><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28A@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B28F@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov><8c58e54a0902220915u60ff23b4q94b60c4d500fb438@mail.gmail.com> <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B292@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Message-ID: Although the two matters are different, as an organization we must determine which issue is more of a priority. As a blind person, I believe that ensuring that all of us have access to jobs and supporting ourselves is more of a priority than making cable and satellite boxes accessible. That certainly doesn't mean that we shouldn't work on this issue as well. With limited funds these days, sometimes organizations have to make tough choices which may not please everyone. On Sun, 22 Feb 2009, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) wrote: > I suggest that the two matters are so very different that they should > not be directly compared. > > Tim Ford > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Leslie Fairall > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 12:21 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satellite and Cable TV Tuner Boxes > > Actually, I think the LSAC issue is more important than making cable > boxes accessible to blind people. While most blind people have either > cable or satellite TV, 70% of us are still unemployed. Ensuring that a > blind person can enter a profession and support themselves is more > important than access to entertainment such as as cable and satellite TV > boxes and remotes. I own a couple of satellite radio receivers, and > they're not fully accessible either. However, these are for my > entertainment pleasure, not my life's work. > > > On Sun, 22 Feb 2009, Michael Fry wrote: > >> It seems cable box accessibility is relevant to more visually impaired > >> people than LSAC accessibility. >> >> On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS) >> wrote: >> >>> I fully agree that such lawsuits need to be carefully chosen. I >>> mention the satellite and cable boxes because they are so >>> wide-spread. I also suspect that, similar to an ATM machine, there >>> are probably very few differences inside the various boxes in terms > of the basic technology. >>> Hence, the solution to one company's box may be either directly or >>> easily transferable to others. Certainly with the advances of screen > >>> reading programs, it would not be that hard to come up with a speech >>> output option for these boxes, which by their nature have much fewer > >>> variability as compared with a typical computer system. >>> >>> Tim Ford >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis >>> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:11 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes >>> >>> If you guys are wishing that every access issues should be addressed >>> through law suits, let me suggest to you that this is not possible. >>> Our efforts have to be targeted, else you lose credibility quickly. >>> >>> Rod Alcidonis >>> Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009. >>> Roger Williams University School of Law 10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003 >>> Bristol, RI 02809 >>> Cell: 718-704-4651 >>> Home: 401-824-8685 >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:57 PM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] Satelitte TV Tuner Boxes >>> >>> >>>> If anyone is looking for another possible case, how about the >>>> complete lack of accessibility of my Dish Network satellite video >>> tuner/recorder? >>>> I assume the same lack of access exists for all the satellite and >>> cable >>>> system video recorders used by all those companies. >>>> >>>> The unit is essentially a computer, with a hard drive and an >>>> operating system. There are a series of menus, left and right arrow > >>>> options, a button to select, etc. It strikes me that it would not >>>> be a hard task to put speech output into that operating system, >>>> especially since it >>> is >>>> a set amount of options and commands. Just for fun, I asked DISH >>>> Network about a set of instructions so that a blind person could >>> operate >>>> their video recorder. Needless to say, they had nothing. >>>> >>>> Yes, I can change/select channels, but that is about it. The rest >>>> of >>> it >>>> involves too many steps and series of choices, and the choices vary >>>> depending upon the situation, so I doubt that much could be done >>>> even with a long series of steps to take, with no way of confirming >>>> what >>> you >>>> have done. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Tim Ford >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40h >>> otm >>> ail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40 >>> cdp >>> h.ca.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%4 >>> 0gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40sh >> ellworld.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tim.ford%40cdp > h.ca.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40shellworld.net > > From chatter8712 at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 13:50:34 2009 From: chatter8712 at gmail.com (Shane D) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:50:34 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> Absolutely the ADA. On 2/22/09, James Pepper wrote: > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man actually > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and the hiring > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of insurance > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more than > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and besides > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what he did > was about as illegal as you can get! > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just so I know > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to his boss > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of him. > > James > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > -- -Shane Website: http://www.blind-geek.com AIM: inhaddict MSN: shane at blind-geek.com Skype: chatter8712 Twitter: blind_geek From mikefry79 at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 16:34:20 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:34:20 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> I'm really sorry to hear this James. At times it can be a very tough for people like us. I want you to know that you're not alone. Keep a stiff upper lip and a positive attitude, I'm sure something better will come along. I don't have much legal advice for you. Right now NFB's number one priority should be helping us personally to take advantage of the Fed stimulus plan. NFB should be having on-line workshops, or distributing daily newsletters advising visually impaired people about the best ways to seek gainful employment by taking advantage of the recent massive infusion of federal funds into the economy. For example, where was the money most distributed too? Should we applying for state, county, or municipal jobs? What non-profits received federal funds? What agencies practice affirmative action and received federal funds? Where's the money going? Which businesses that are receivng money will be the most likely to hire visually impaired people? How to use disability affirmative action to our advantage? I think there's a tremendous opportunity for us, that we should now be seizing. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:50 AM, Shane D wrote: > Absolutely the ADA. > > On 2/22/09, James Pepper wrote: > > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man > actually > > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and the > hiring > > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of > insurance > > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more than > > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and > besides > > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what he did > > was about as illegal as you can get! > > > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just so I > know > > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to his > boss > > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of him. > > > > James > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > -Shane > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > AIM: inhaddict > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > Skype: chatter8712 > Twitter: blind_geek > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 23 17:51:09 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:51:09 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this stimulus plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. My impression was that there was very little benefit that would trickle down to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? From b75205 at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 18:49:40 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:49:40 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, I just wanted to cite a list of laws to them to explain to them and teach them that this man should not be doing this because I don't want to harm the non profit because they do good work but they should not be doing this because it is wrong. If this guy continues to do this, someone might just sue them and take them out of business and they do good work and so I thought that if I had a list of laws I could go to their boss and say, here, you guys have to fix this! Right now I am writing a book for APress explaining how to make documents forms and websites accessible because people just do not know how to do this work and I did this with the national voter registration form. Currently the EAC, the Elections Assistance commission thinks their form is accessible but in order to fill it out you have to have the full version of JAWS which means that the blind have to pay a poll tax of $1095 to fill out the voter registration form. I made it so they can fill it out using Adobe's "Read Out Loud" and Microsoft Narrator so the form is accessible to anyone using a PC running Windows and it can be filled out in about the same amount of time as a person with eyesight and they do not have to set accessibility in Adobe Reader, it is run with their default settings. All of the content is accessible and I can do this in all the languages supported by Adobe which is about 40 languages so this can be done worldwide. I had it tested by AFB Tech and the folks at the Jernigan Institute at the NFB and Jim Dickson the Vice President of the AAPD presented it to the EAC in October. The NFB is very much aware of what I can do and I am writing this book to explain exactly how to do this work, including how to use the software to make these documents, forms and websites so that we can solve this problem and train people properly to do the work! Doing something constructive. James I see this discrimination all the time and I trying to fix it. I think that by demonstrating what is wrong and showing how to fix it will shame people into action. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Michael Fry wrote: > I'm really sorry to hear this James. At times it can be a very tough for > people like us. I want you to know that you're not alone. Keep a stiff > upper lip and a positive attitude, I'm sure something better will come > along. I don't have much legal advice for you. > > Right now NFB's number one priority should be helping us personally to take > advantage of the Fed stimulus plan. NFB should be having on-line > workshops, > or distributing daily newsletters advising visually impaired people about > the best ways to seek gainful employment by taking advantage of the > recent massive infusion of federal funds into the economy. For example, > where was the money most distributed too? Should we applying for state, > county, or municipal jobs? What non-profits received federal funds? What > agencies practice affirmative action and received federal funds? Where's > the money going? Which businesses that are receivng money will be the most > likely to hire visually impaired people? How to use disability affirmative > action to our advantage? > > I think there's a tremendous opportunity for us, that we should now > be seizing. > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:50 AM, Shane D wrote: > > > Absolutely the ADA. > > > > On 2/22/09, James Pepper wrote: > > > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man > > actually > > > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and the > > hiring > > > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of > > insurance > > > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more > than > > > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and > > besides > > > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what he > did > > > was about as illegal as you can get! > > > > > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just so I > > know > > > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to his > > boss > > > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of > him. > > > > > > James > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > -- > > -Shane > > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > > AIM: inhaddict > > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > > Skype: chatter8712 > > Twitter: blind_geek > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From lmilholland at hotmail.com Mon Feb 23 19:18:12 2009 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:18:12 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: James, On the subject of website form accessibility, I recently applied for tickets to the Antiques road show. Luckily, I had a friend (my wife)around. Here is what I encountered: Please type the password shown in the image above into the field below, then click Submit. If you are unable to read the image, please ask a friend or request tickets via postcard instead. At least it's not the current Technology road show. Locke From pebreeze at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 19:31:25 2009 From: pebreeze at gmail.com (Philip Breeze) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:31:25 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind Message-ID: <88afe4410902231131u24e99b0evdaa62cba145c0cb3@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 year old sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an update on the situation and find it extremely difficult to understand. The facts are as follows: February 2008 -- I applied for my son to attend FSDB. May 2008 -- I received a letter disqualifying my son from attending. July 2008 -- I met with the school president and staff, non of whom evaluated my son's records. No person in the meeting could explain the reason for refusing him entry other than the evaluators must have seen something in his records to disqualify him. They determined that he was Trainable Mentally Handicap and could not answer the question of how they determined this. October 2008 -- I filed a complaint with Florida Department of Education. FDOE determined that FSDB acted unethically and ordered FSDB to show proof of findings. FSDB refused such saying they no longer had his records and that we need to reapply. FDOE also ordered FSDB to refrain from using the terminology Trainable Mentally Handicap as it is no longer used in the professional world. Here we are in February of 2009 and FSDB has yet to admit that they used prejudice in evaluating my child and will not accept responsibility of such even after being ordered by FDOE. FSDB to this day has never seen my son in person. I contacted several attorney's and learned that FSDB is notorious for being sued and spending millions of dollars to prevent children that are slow learners from attending. Yes, my son is developmentally delayed. He was born blind and has very low muscle tone (hypotonia). FSDB prefers to allow enrollment to those visually impaired children that are most easily educated and to accept deaf children. They *DO NOT WANT* young totally blind children. This could possibly impact their bragging rights to success. I have come to the realization the FSDB, a State of Florida public school discriminates against young blind children. They violate every aspect of IDEA and No Child Left behind. They accept federal assistance and private donations. They have a budget of $40 million dollars and only 700 children. They retain a high dollar attorney from Atlanta to keep children out. This is most blatant case of fraud, waste and abuse I have ever seen. They excuse themselves by saying that they do not have the money nor man power to educate children that have multiple disabilities and those children have other options. My options are to stay locally and have my child educated by a county that has few blind children and no experience with teaching them or to leave the state to attend a school elsewhere. I never in my mind thought that I would have to fight to get my child accepted to a school for blind children. These people work for the Governor of Florida, the FSDB board is appointed by Governor Crist. There in something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission is to educate blind children and they refuse to do so. My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer this sort of discrimination in our society. Philip Breeze From timandvickie at hotmail.com Mon Feb 23 19:36:55 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:36:55 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: oh ya, i love that. If you try to buy via ticketmaster for something and cant see the image you click a link and it lets you get around it somehow, cant remember exactly, but then will only let you by handicap seat tickets which are usually crap > From: lmilholland at hotmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:18:12 -0500 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > James, > On the subject of website form accessibility, I recently applied for tickets > to the Antiques road show. Luckily, I had a friend (my wife)around. Here > is what I encountered: > Please type the password shown in the image above into the field below, then > click Submit. > > If you are unable to read the image, please ask a friend or request tickets > via postcard instead. > > > At least it's not the current Technology road show. > > Locke > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Mon Feb 23 20:52:10 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:52:10 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9807F9A372D44F639C30ADBF2848AC9E@StevePC> No joke, that's what is happening with more and more web sites. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Locke Milholland" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:18 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > James, > On the subject of website form accessibility, I recently applied for > tickets > to the Antiques road show. Luckily, I had a friend (my wife)around. Here > is what I encountered: > Please type the password shown in the image above into the field below, > then > click Submit. > > If you are unable to read the image, please ask a friend or request > tickets > via postcard instead. > > > At least it's not the current Technology road show. > > Locke > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release Date: 02/23/09 07:17:00 From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Feb 23 21:22:11 2009 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:22:11 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A8EE03994EE4B47AF531226D7892379@hp048378e4c43a> So would I! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this stimulus > plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. My > impression was that there was very little benefit that would trickle down > to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From stiehm.law at juno.com Mon Feb 23 22:03:39 2009 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H. Stiehm) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:03:39 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind Message-ID: <20090223.170339.2012.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Philip, What you have related is on its face appalling and inexcusable. As long as you have done everything that they have asked you to do, I think it's time to contact the Governor's office directly. This is not the type of story that any government official wants the press to get a hold of. (Remember the foster children that got lost in the state system under the Bush administration? I'm sure the current governor would not want a similar story that will raise the specter of that incident.) In addition to the Governor's office you should contact your state legislators. Government employees are susceptible to the pressure that can be brought on them by the chief executive of the state as well as members of the legislature. He should not hesitate to pursue such a course of action. Patrick H. Stiehm Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, VA 22309 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:31:25 -0600 Philip Breeze writes: > Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 > year old > sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an > > > > something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission > is to > educate blind children and they refuse to do so. > > My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer > this > sort of discrimination in our society. > > Philip Breeze > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTK8PHAGEPqSm27C8DV01LcnWuMncPk1yOjtaNFhy1hgpkfraWJBs8/ From fairall at shellworld.net Mon Feb 23 23:05:12 2009 From: fairall at shellworld.net (Leslie Fairall) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:05:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <7A8EE03994EE4B47AF531226D7892379@hp048378e4c43a> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> <7A8EE03994EE4B47AF531226D7892379@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: Don't depend on the government for anything, folks. There's no such thing as a free lunch. There are always strings attached whenever the government gets involved. If you would like to look for federal jobs, go to www.usajobs.gov. As long as you have the proper education, there should be lots of positions you can qualify for. If anyone needs help or has questions about the feds, I'll be happy to answer them. On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Michael O. Hanson wrote: > So would I! > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:51 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > >> I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this stimulus >> plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. My >> impression was that there was very little benefit that would trickle down >> to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40shellworld.net > > From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 23 23:40:04 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:40:04 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> <7A8EE03994EE4B47AF531226D7892379@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: Wow; someone's been reading too much Robert A. Heinlein--except, of course, that such a thing is not physically possible... From mhanson at winternet.com Mon Feb 23 23:54:58 2009 From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:54:58 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind References: <20090223.170339.2012.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <60C80CC258DB4C98ABE24C4F1D2E3F34@hp048378e4c43a> Why not contact the press also? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick H. Stiehm" To: Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind > Philip, > > What you have related is on its face appalling and inexcusable. As long > as you have done everything that they have asked you to do, I think it's > time to contact the Governor's office directly. This is not the type of > story that any government official wants the press to get a hold of. > (Remember the foster children that got lost in the state system under the > Bush administration? I'm sure the current governor would not want a > similar story that will raise the specter of that incident.) > > In addition to the Governor's office you should contact your state > legislators. Government employees are susceptible to the pressure that > can be brought on them by the chief executive of the state as well as > members of the legislature. He should not hesitate to pursue such a > course of action. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:31:25 -0600 Philip Breeze > writes: >> Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 >> year old >> sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an >> >> >> >> something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission >> is to >> educate blind children and they refuse to do so. >> >> My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer >> this >> sort of discrimination in our society. >> >> Philip Breeze >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com >> >> > > ____________________________________________________________ > Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTK8PHAGEPqSm27C8DV01LcnWuMncPk1yOjtaNFhy1hgpkfraWJBs8/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com > From pebreeze at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 00:23:18 2009 From: pebreeze at gmail.com (Philip Breeze) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:23:18 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind In-Reply-To: <20090223.170339.2012.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> References: <20090223.170339.2012.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> Message-ID: <88afe4410902231623x715e110fkc671366f9661217a@mail.gmail.com> Hi Patrick, I appreciate your understanding and support. We have contacted the Governors office and we were referred back to the Florida Department of Education. This sytem is full of nepotism, the current Chair of the Board of Directors is the secretary for Florida State Representative Bill Proctor . Mr. Proctor resided on this board for 15 plus years. They appointment friends and family to keep things running smoothly and quietly. They recently replaced the president of the school with the vice president. The Florida School for the Deaf and Blind has a written policy to not accept children with extreme learning delays, it is published and known. We have a file over 2 inches thick that we have compiled with correspondence. Each person passes the buck. The school has been challenged by other parents in the past and when they in, the schoolw appeals and the case continues for years while the child pays the price. My understanding is that the school wins 70 percent of the time, parents win 11 percent and then it goes to appeal. They have very deep tax payers pockets. The question lies in what is extreme and what is the cause. They use the term "trainable mentally handicapped" as a catch all phrase. My 6 year old son taught himself to echo locate, to count to 100 by 2's he can easily spell over 100 words and can memorize children's books verbatim front to back. His kindergarten teacher is amazed at his memorization ability. However, he does lack in conceptual development and that is the thing I feel FSDB can teach him best. But, this developmental delay makes him seem retarded on paper. We recently brought up a psychologist with 50 years of experience in evaluating children with varying visual impairment. My son is lacking in conceptual development and I felt FSDB would be best suited for teaching him this. After speaking with various professionals that have close dealings with the school I have learned differently. A University of Florida Psychiatrist's son attended the school and said psychiatrist felt the school os sub standard in caring for children. The psycholigist that evaluated my son feels the same, as does an attorney that works with deaf children and has worked with the school in the past. With that information we have decided to stay local and put our money toward private education. This is truely as sad waste of tax payers money and most people have no clue. I now consider the Florida School for the Deaf and Blind, "Florida Token School". Their conscience is relieved in thinking that they are serving their community. If only Oprah could publish this story. Feel free to pass the information, we have documented the whole journey. Philip On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Patrick H. Stiehm wrote: > Philip, > > What you have related is on its face appalling and inexcusable. As long > as you have done everything that they have asked you to do, I think it's > time to contact the Governor's office directly. This is not the type of > story that any government official wants the press to get a hold of. > (Remember the foster children that got lost in the state system under the > Bush administration? I'm sure the current governor would not want a > similar story that will raise the specter of that incident.) > > In addition to the Governor's office you should contact your state > legislators. Government employees are susceptible to the pressure that > can be brought on them by the chief executive of the state as well as > members of the legislature. He should not hesitate to pursue such a > course of action. > > Patrick H. Stiehm > Stiehm Law Office > Alexandria, VA 22309 > 703-360-1089 (Voice) > 703-935-8266 (Fax) > > On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:31:25 -0600 Philip Breeze > writes: > > Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 > > year old > > sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an > > > > > > > > something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission > > is to > > educate blind children and they refuse to do so. > > > > My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer > > this > > sort of discrimination in our society. > > > > Philip Breeze > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju > no.com > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now! > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTK8PHAGEPqSm27C8DV01LcnWuMncPk1yOjtaNFhy1hgpkfraWJBs8/ > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Feb 24 00:34:09 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:34:09 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] U.S. Dept. of Education OCR decision re computer access in Charlotte-Mecklenburg (NC) Schools, Message-ID: >From Special Ed Connection TIP OF THE WEEK: Make sure blind students have comparable access to computers A district requires students to pass a computer skills test to graduate from high school. To accommodate students with visual impairments, the district installs screen-reading and text-magnification software on select computers. Has the district fulfilled its obligations under Section 504? The answer depends on whether students with visual impairments have comparable access to the equipment. In Charlotte-Mecklenburg (NC) Schools, 51 IDELR 196 (OCR 2008), OCR found that a North Carolina district violated Section 504 by failing to accommodate students with visual impairments. OCR recognized that the district installed screen-reading software on 12 elementary school computers. However, OCR noted that six of the classrooms and common areas used by students with visual impairments did not have screen-reading software on any of their computers. "[T]he information provided by the district shows that there are several [students with visual impairments] who were still unable to access computers at the school during the" 2007-08 school year, OCR wrote. OCR indicated that the district could resolve the compliance concern by ensuring that all students with visual impairments had access to computers. Districts must ensure that the services and facilities provided to students with disabilities are comparable to those provided to their nondisabled peers. East Allen County (IN) Sch., 19 IDELR 80 (OCR 1992). Thus, if nondisabled students have ready access to computers, the district must ensure that students with visual impairments have ready access as well. Calculate the number of computers needed. The number of accessible computers required will depend on several factors, including the number of students with visual impairments and the extent to which computers are used in the curriculum. Create a list of all eligible students with visual impairments and determine the number and location of computers needed to provide them with comparable access. Remember that the comparable access requirement applies to computers in classrooms and common areas. Identify and provide necessary equipment. Some students with visual impairments may require the use of screen-reading or text-magnification software. Others may need Braille or large-print keyboards to use computers effectively. Review the needs of students with visual impairments, and determine what software and equipment are required to provide them with comparable access. Consider the need for compensatory services. If the lack of accessible computers causes students with visual impairments to fall behind their nondisabled peers, the district must consider the need for compensatory services. This is especially true when, as in Charlotte-Mecklenburg, computers are an integral part of the curriculum. Amy E. Slater, Esq. covers special education legal issues for LRP Publications. February 12, 2009 Copyright 2009(c) LRP Publications From khagen12 at q.com Tue Feb 24 01:48:18 2009 From: khagen12 at q.com (Kathleen Hagen) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:48:18 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] U.S. Dept. of Education OCR decision re computer access in Charlotte-Mecklenburg (NC) Schools, References: Message-ID: Noel, Thank you for that informative and enlightened OCR decision. Kathy Hagen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" To: Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 6:34 PM Subject: [blindlaw] U.S. Dept. of Education OCR decision re computer access in Charlotte-Mecklenburg (NC) Schools, > >From Special Ed Connection > TIP OF THE WEEK: Make sure blind students have comparable access to > computers > > A district requires students to pass a computer skills test to graduate > from high school. To accommodate students with visual impairments, the > district installs screen-reading and text-magnification software on select > computers. Has the district fulfilled its obligations under Section 504? > > The answer depends on whether students with visual impairments have > comparable access to the equipment. > > In Charlotte-Mecklenburg (NC) Schools, 51 IDELR 196 (OCR 2008), OCR found > that a North Carolina district violated Section 504 by failing to > accommodate students with visual impairments. OCR recognized that the > district installed screen-reading software on 12 elementary school > computers. However, OCR noted that six of the classrooms and common areas > used by students with visual impairments did not have screen-reading > software on any of their computers. > > "[T]he information provided by the district shows that there are several > [students with visual impairments] who were still unable to access > computers at the school during the" 2007-08 school year, OCR wrote. OCR > indicated that the district could resolve the compliance concern by > ensuring that all students with visual impairments had access to > computers. > > Districts must ensure that the services and facilities provided to > students with disabilities are comparable to those provided to their > nondisabled peers. East Allen County (IN) Sch., 19 IDELR 80 (OCR 1992). > Thus, if nondisabled students have ready access to computers, the district > must ensure that students with visual impairments have ready access as > well. > > Calculate the number of computers needed. The number of accessible > computers required will depend on several factors, including the number of > students with visual impairments and the extent to which computers are > used in the curriculum. Create a list of all eligible students with visual > impairments and determine the number and location of computers needed to > provide them with comparable access. Remember that the comparable access > requirement applies to computers in classrooms and common areas. > Identify and provide necessary equipment. Some students with visual > impairments may require the use of screen-reading or text-magnification > software. Others may need Braille or large-print keyboards to use > computers effectively. Review the needs of students with visual > impairments, and determine what software and equipment are required to > provide them with comparable access. > Consider the need for compensatory services. If the lack of accessible > computers causes students with visual impairments to fall behind their > nondisabled peers, the district must consider the need for compensatory > services. This is especially true when, as in Charlotte-Mecklenburg, > computers are an integral part of the curriculum. > Amy E. Slater, Esq. covers special education legal issues for LRP > Publications. > > February 12, 2009 > > Copyright 2009(c) LRP Publications > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 02:08:02 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:08:02 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1B4CEBD25A484D51B458A1AEBDE8724E@spike> There are actually people out there that are just plain ignorant. Several years ago a similar question was raised by a prospective landlord when I went to look at an apartment that was for rent. In his case he just didn't know and when I answered his question there was no problem. As a consultant to nonprofits I have found that many executive directors and staff in nonprofits are somewhat ignorant when it comes to business matters. It is not always a question of discrimination. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man > actually > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and the > hiring > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of > insurance > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more than > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and besides > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what he did > was about as illegal as you can get! > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just so I > know > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to his > boss > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of him. > > James > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From langlois2 at verizon.net Tue Feb 24 03:18:52 2009 From: langlois2 at verizon.net (BRIAN LANGLOIS) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:18:52 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006201c9962e$9efe55a0$2a01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> I wouldn't worry about putting them out of business, they'll survive. Also, I'm afraid they would just yes their way through an educational conversation initiated by you. Perhaps a conversation with the manager, followed by contact with their board of directors would be in order. If no attention is paid, perhaps a formal complaint should be the next step. Brian Langlois a ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pepper" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > Well, I just wanted to cite a list of laws to them to explain to them and > teach them that this man should not be doing this because I don't want to > harm the non profit because they do good work but they should not be doing > this because it is wrong. If this guy continues to do this, someone might > just sue them and take them out of business and they do good work and so I > thought that if I had a list of laws I could go to their boss and say, here, > you guys have to fix this! > > Right now I am writing a book for APress explaining how to make documents > forms and websites accessible because people just do not know how to do this > work and I did this with the national voter registration form. Currently > the EAC, the Elections Assistance commission thinks their form is accessible > but in order to fill it out you have to have the full version of JAWS which > means that the blind have to pay a poll tax of $1095 to fill out the voter > registration form. I made it so they can fill it out using Adobe's "Read Out > Loud" and Microsoft Narrator so the form is accessible to anyone using a PC > running Windows and it can be filled out in about the same amount of time as > a person with eyesight and they do not have to set accessibility in Adobe > Reader, it is run with their default settings. All of the content is > accessible and I can do this in all the languages supported by Adobe which > is about 40 languages so this can be done worldwide. > > I had it tested by AFB Tech and the folks at the Jernigan Institute at the > NFB and Jim Dickson the Vice President of the AAPD presented it to the EAC > in October. The NFB is very much aware of what I can do and I am writing > this book to explain exactly how to do this work, including how to use the > software to make these documents, forms and websites so that we can solve > this problem and train people properly to do the work! > > Doing something constructive. > > James > > > I see this discrimination all the time and I trying to fix it. I think that > by demonstrating what is wrong and showing how to fix it will shame people > into action. > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Michael Fry wrote: > > > I'm really sorry to hear this James. At times it can be a very tough for > > people like us. I want you to know that you're not alone. Keep a stiff > > upper lip and a positive attitude, I'm sure something better will come > > along. I don't have much legal advice for you. > > > > Right now NFB's number one priority should be helping us personally to take > > advantage of the Fed stimulus plan. NFB should be having on-line > > workshops, > > or distributing daily newsletters advising visually impaired people about > > the best ways to seek gainful employment by taking advantage of the > > recent massive infusion of federal funds into the economy. For example, > > where was the money most distributed too? Should we applying for state, > > county, or municipal jobs? What non-profits received federal funds? What > > agencies practice affirmative action and received federal funds? Where's > > the money going? Which businesses that are receivng money will be the most > > likely to hire visually impaired people? How to use disability affirmative > > action to our advantage? > > > > I think there's a tremendous opportunity for us, that we should now > > be seizing. > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:50 AM, Shane D wrote: > > > > > Absolutely the ADA. > > > > > > On 2/22/09, James Pepper wrote: > > > > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man > > > actually > > > > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and the > > > hiring > > > > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of > > > insurance > > > > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more > > than > > > > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and > > > besides > > > > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what he > > did > > > > was about as illegal as you can get! > > > > > > > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just so I > > > know > > > > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to his > > > boss > > > > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of > > him. > > > > > > > > James > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmai l.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -Shane > > > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > > > AIM: inhaddict > > > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > > > Skype: chatter8712 > > > Twitter: blind_geek > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail. com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/langlois2%40verizo n.net > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release Date: 2/23/09 7:17 AM > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 04:07:19 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:07:19 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> Its my understanding that blind epople whwo are Social Security recipients would receive a $250 check. I'm not positive about the amount but this is the latest figure I heard. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this stimulus > plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. My > impression was that there was very little benefit that would trickle down > to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 04:39:06 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:39:06 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind In-Reply-To: <88afe4410902231131u24e99b0evdaa62cba145c0cb3@mail.gmail.com> References: <88afe4410902231131u24e99b0evdaa62cba145c0cb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <231783B2C8284ED9AEC57AC702D176A7@spike> perhaps a more enlightened approach would be to advocate for your son's education at the county level. There are many pros and cons about having blind children educated in residential settings as they do not foster full socialization with sighted children. The main benefit would be that your son would receive Braille instruction that might not be able to be provided by your county department of education. Not being familiar with the specifics of your county's education department I can't comment on all of the pros and cons but the laws generally encourage education in the least restrictive environment. I realize that I am probably opening a big can of worms here by posting this but I think that in planning for your son's education you need to be aware of all options. I also realize that I am showing some of my own biases toward forced county and local school districts to do what they are supposed to do and that is mainstream and accommodate students. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Breeze" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind > Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 year > old > sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an update on > the situation and find it extremely difficult to understand. The facts > are > as follows: > > February 2008 -- I applied for my son to attend FSDB. > May 2008 -- I received a letter disqualifying my son from attending. > July 2008 -- I met with the school president and staff, non of whom > evaluated my son's records. No person in the meeting could explain the > reason for refusing him entry other than the evaluators must have seen > something in his records to disqualify him. They determined that he was > Trainable Mentally Handicap and could not answer the question of how they > determined this. > October 2008 -- I filed a complaint with Florida Department of Education. > FDOE determined that FSDB acted unethically and ordered FSDB to show proof > of findings. FSDB refused such saying they no longer had his records and > that we need to reapply. FDOE also ordered FSDB to refrain from using the > terminology Trainable Mentally Handicap as it is no longer used in the > professional world. > > Here we are in February of 2009 and FSDB has yet to admit that they used > prejudice in evaluating my child and will not accept responsibility of > such > even after being ordered by FDOE. FSDB to this day has never seen my son > in > person. I contacted several attorney's and learned that FSDB is notorious > for being sued and spending millions of dollars to prevent children that > are > slow learners from attending. Yes, my son is developmentally delayed. He > was born blind and has very low muscle tone (hypotonia). FSDB prefers to > allow enrollment to those visually impaired children that are most easily > educated and to accept deaf children. They *DO NOT WANT* young totally > blind children. This could possibly impact their bragging rights to > success. > > I have come to the realization the FSDB, a State of Florida public school > discriminates against young blind children. They violate every aspect of > IDEA and No Child Left behind. They accept federal assistance and private > donations. They have a budget of $40 million dollars and only 700 > children. They retain a high dollar attorney from Atlanta to keep > children > out. This is most blatant case of fraud, waste and abuse I have ever > seen. > They excuse themselves by saying that they do not have the money nor man > power to educate children that have multiple disabilities and those > children > have other options. My options are to stay locally and have my child > educated by a county that has few blind children and no experience with > teaching them or to leave the state to attend a school elsewhere. > > I never in my mind thought that I would have to fight to get my child > accepted to a school for blind children. These people work for the > Governor > of Florida, the FSDB board is appointed by Governor Crist. There in > something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission is to > educate blind children and they refuse to do so. > > My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer this > sort of discrimination in our society. > > Philip Breeze > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 05:20:13 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:20:13 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com><7A8EE03994EE4B47AF531226D7892379@hp048378e4c43a> Message-ID: Additionally, if you are wanting to register to qualify for economic job stimulus jobs it would be a good idea to register with local employment and training programs in your area. Usually employers that receive tax credits for hiring post their jobs through state employment services or local work force development boards. Unfortunately, many local funded programs such as work force investment programs have not always done adequate outreach to blind people and others with disabilities although they are mandated to do so. On the other hand state departments of rehab or commissions don't have that great a track record for individual job development either. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leslie Fairall" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > Don't depend on the government for anything, folks. There's no such thing > as a free lunch. There are always strings attached whenever the government > gets involved. If you would like to look for federal jobs, go to > www.usajobs.gov. As long as you have the proper education, there should be > lots of positions you can qualify for. If anyone needs help or has > questions about the feds, I'll be happy to answer them. > > > On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Michael O. Hanson wrote: > >> So would I! >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:51 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination >> >> >>> I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this >>> stimulus >>> plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. My >>> impression was that there was very little benefit that would trickle >>> down >>> to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mhanson%40winternet.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fairall%40shellworld.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From mikefry79 at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 05:25:56 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:25:56 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <006201c9962e$9efe55a0$2a01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> <006201c9962e$9efe55a0$2a01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902232125p64a28efar4d7ed48e8216fd81@mail.gmail.com> The stimulus plan is desinged to create 4 million jobs. NFB needs to cordinate a significant effort to be sure at least a small fraction of those go to people who visually impaired. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 7:18 PM, BRIAN LANGLOIS wrote: > I wouldn't worry about putting them out of business, they'll survive. > Also, I'm afraid they would just yes their way through an educational > conversation initiated by you. > Perhaps a conversation with the manager, followed by contact with their > board of directors would be in order. > If no attention is paid, perhaps a formal complaint should be the next > step. > Brian Langlois > > a > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 1:49 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > > > Well, I just wanted to cite a list of laws to them to explain to them > and > > teach them that this man should not be doing this because I don't want to > > harm the non profit because they do good work but they should not be > doing > > this because it is wrong. If this guy continues to do this, someone might > > just sue them and take them out of business and they do good work and so > I > > thought that if I had a list of laws I could go to their boss and say, > here, > > you guys have to fix this! > > > > Right now I am writing a book for APress explaining how to make documents > > forms and websites accessible because people just do not know how to do > this > > work and I did this with the national voter registration form. Currently > > the EAC, the Elections Assistance commission thinks their form is > accessible > > but in order to fill it out you have to have the full version of JAWS > which > > means that the blind have to pay a poll tax of $1095 to fill out the > voter > > registration form. I made it so they can fill it out using Adobe's "Read > Out > > Loud" and Microsoft Narrator so the form is accessible to anyone using a > PC > > running Windows and it can be filled out in about the same amount of time > as > > a person with eyesight and they do not have to set accessibility in Adobe > > Reader, it is run with their default settings. All of the content is > > accessible and I can do this in all the languages supported by Adobe > which > > is about 40 languages so this can be done worldwide. > > > > I had it tested by AFB Tech and the folks at the Jernigan Institute at > the > > NFB and Jim Dickson the Vice President of the AAPD presented it to the > EAC > > in October. The NFB is very much aware of what I can do and I am > writing > > this book to explain exactly how to do this work, including how to use > the > > software to make these documents, forms and websites so that we can solve > > this problem and train people properly to do the work! > > > > Doing something constructive. > > > > James > > > > > > I see this discrimination all the time and I trying to fix it. I think > that > > by demonstrating what is wrong and showing how to fix it will shame > people > > into action. > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Michael Fry > wrote: > > > > > I'm really sorry to hear this James. At times it can be a very tough > for > > > people like us. I want you to know that you're not alone. Keep a > stiff > > > upper lip and a positive attitude, I'm sure something better will come > > > along. I don't have much legal advice for you. > > > > > > Right now NFB's number one priority should be helping us personally to > take > > > advantage of the Fed stimulus plan. NFB should be having on-line > > > workshops, > > > or distributing daily newsletters advising visually impaired people > about > > > the best ways to seek gainful employment by taking advantage of the > > > recent massive infusion of federal funds into the economy. For > example, > > > where was the money most distributed too? Should we applying for > state, > > > county, or municipal jobs? What non-profits received federal funds? > What > > > agencies practice affirmative action and received federal funds? > Where's > > > the money going? Which businesses that are receivng money will be the > most > > > likely to hire visually impaired people? How to use disability > affirmative > > > action to our advantage? > > > > > > I think there's a tremendous opportunity for us, that we should now > > > be seizing. > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:50 AM, Shane D > wrote: > > > > > > > Absolutely the ADA. > > > > > > > > On 2/22/09, James Pepper wrote: > > > > > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man > > > > actually > > > > > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and > the > > > > hiring > > > > > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of > > > > insurance > > > > > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more > > > than > > > > > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and > > > > besides > > > > > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what > he > > > did > > > > > was about as illegal as you can get! > > > > > > > > > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just > so I > > > > know > > > > > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to > his > > > > boss > > > > > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of > > > him. > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmai > l.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -Shane > > > > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com > > > > AIM: inhaddict > > > > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com > > > > Skype: chatter8712 > > > > Twitter: blind_geek > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail. > com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/langlois2%40verizo > n.net > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release Date: 2/23/09 > 7:17 AM > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 05:54:09 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:54:09 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <006201c9962e$9efe55a0$2a01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> <006201c9962e$9efe55a0$2a01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> Message-ID: <011AFEE374654939B0BE8F3F23ADF5C7@spike> Unfortunately, there are many nonprofits that think they are exempt from or above the law because they are nonprofits. A letter from an attorney or a civil rights complaint won't put an organization out of business and sometimes it is the wake-up call that they need. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "BRIAN LANGLOIS" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > I wouldn't worry about putting them out of business, they'll survive. > Also, I'm afraid they would just yes their way through an educational > conversation initiated by you. > Perhaps a conversation with the manager, followed by contact with their > board of directors would be in order. > If no attention is paid, perhaps a formal complaint should be the next > step. > Brian Langlois > > a > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pepper" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 1:49 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > >> Well, I just wanted to cite a list of laws to them to explain to them and >> teach them that this man should not be doing this because I don't want to >> harm the non profit because they do good work but they should not be >> doing >> this because it is wrong. If this guy continues to do this, someone might >> just sue them and take them out of business and they do good work and so >> I >> thought that if I had a list of laws I could go to their boss and say, > here, >> you guys have to fix this! >> >> Right now I am writing a book for APress explaining how to make documents >> forms and websites accessible because people just do not know how to do > this >> work and I did this with the national voter registration form. Currently >> the EAC, the Elections Assistance commission thinks their form is > accessible >> but in order to fill it out you have to have the full version of JAWS > which >> means that the blind have to pay a poll tax of $1095 to fill out the >> voter >> registration form. I made it so they can fill it out using Adobe's "Read > Out >> Loud" and Microsoft Narrator so the form is accessible to anyone using a > PC >> running Windows and it can be filled out in about the same amount of time > as >> a person with eyesight and they do not have to set accessibility in Adobe >> Reader, it is run with their default settings. All of the content is >> accessible and I can do this in all the languages supported by Adobe >> which >> is about 40 languages so this can be done worldwide. >> >> I had it tested by AFB Tech and the folks at the Jernigan Institute at >> the >> NFB and Jim Dickson the Vice President of the AAPD presented it to the >> EAC >> in October. The NFB is very much aware of what I can do and I am >> writing >> this book to explain exactly how to do this work, including how to use >> the >> software to make these documents, forms and websites so that we can solve >> this problem and train people properly to do the work! >> >> Doing something constructive. >> >> James >> >> >> I see this discrimination all the time and I trying to fix it. I think > that >> by demonstrating what is wrong and showing how to fix it will shame >> people >> into action. >> >> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Michael Fry >> wrote: >> >> > I'm really sorry to hear this James. At times it can be a very tough > for >> > people like us. I want you to know that you're not alone. Keep a >> > stiff >> > upper lip and a positive attitude, I'm sure something better will come >> > along. I don't have much legal advice for you. >> > >> > Right now NFB's number one priority should be helping us personally to > take >> > advantage of the Fed stimulus plan. NFB should be having on-line >> > workshops, >> > or distributing daily newsletters advising visually impaired people > about >> > the best ways to seek gainful employment by taking advantage of the >> > recent massive infusion of federal funds into the economy. For >> > example, >> > where was the money most distributed too? Should we applying for >> > state, >> > county, or municipal jobs? What non-profits received federal funds? > What >> > agencies practice affirmative action and received federal funds? > Where's >> > the money going? Which businesses that are receivng money will be the > most >> > likely to hire visually impaired people? How to use disability > affirmative >> > action to our advantage? >> > >> > I think there's a tremendous opportunity for us, that we should now >> > be seizing. >> > >> > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:50 AM, Shane D wrote: >> > >> > > Absolutely the ADA. >> > > >> > > On 2/22/09, James Pepper wrote: >> > > > Ok this often happens to me but I found it intersting that the man >> > > actually >> > > > said it to my face. I was applying for a job at a nonprofit and >> > > > the >> > > hiring >> > > > person told me that he would not hire me because he was afraid of >> > > insurance >> > > > costs. Of course I have insurance and my insurance is not any more >> > than >> > > > anyone else and I am not legally blind, just visually impaired and >> > > besides >> > > > that would not affect my insurance costs anyway and of course what > he >> > did >> > > > was about as illegal as you can get! >> > > > >> > > > I would like to know which laws he broke. This is in Texas. Just > so I >> > > know >> > > > what to say the next time this happens and I will write a letter to > his >> > > boss >> > > > telling him what a jerk this guy is and why they need to get rid of >> > him. >> > > > >> > > > James >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > blindlaw mailing list >> > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >> > > > blindlaw: >> > > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/chatter8712%40gmai > l.com >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > -Shane >> > > Website: http://www.blind-geek.com >> > > AIM: inhaddict >> > > MSN: shane at blind-geek.com >> > > Skype: chatter8712 >> > > Twitter: blind_geek >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > blindlaw mailing list >> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > > blindlaw: >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail. > com >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > blindlaw: >> > >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/langlois2%40verizo > n.net >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release Date: 2/23/09 > 7:17 AM >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 13:25:09 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 05:25:09 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> References: <754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> Message-ID: <20090224132509.GK91686@yumi.bluecherry.net> I heard specifically SSI and SSDI. I haven't heard that all people receiving social security do. I am considered a "disabled child adult" receiving social security through my deceased father. From what I understand about this (which isn't much, because frankly the SSA people I've talked to don't understand this either), MOST of what benefits exist for the blind--such as employment incentives--just do not exist for me. Lack of understanding on their part has resulted in penalties on my part in the form of withholdings to undo their mistakes, and I am warned that if I make even as much as part-time minimum wage I will quickly lose all social security and medicare benefits as well. (That situation has also gotten messed up..) Jim, can you shed some light on this by chance? I can't get one from the SSA. Joseph On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 08:07:19PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Its my understanding that blind epople whwo are Social Security > recipients would receive a $250 check. I'm not positive about the amount > but this is the latest figure I heard. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:51 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > >> I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this >> stimulus plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. >> My impression was that there was very little benefit that would >> trickle down to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 13:26:01 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 05:26:01 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> <754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> Message-ID: As an interesting caveat to that, I did not receive the last stimulus check, because my government student loans garnished it. Even though I had a a deferment with them, apparently they still consider me in arrears and therefore I didn't get Bush's stimulus, and probably won't get this one either. Just a heads-up for those others of you who might have GSL. From pebreeze at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 14:47:57 2009 From: pebreeze at gmail.com (Philip Breeze) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:47:57 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind In-Reply-To: <231783B2C8284ED9AEC57AC702D176A7@spike> References: <88afe4410902231131u24e99b0evdaa62cba145c0cb3@mail.gmail.com> <231783B2C8284ED9AEC57AC702D176A7@spike> Message-ID: <88afe4410902240647g22637c84gb6f6ea8c0eef7dea@mail.gmail.com> Chuck, in this case I agree with you. After speaking with professionals familiar with FSDB we have decided that it would benefit my son to stay where we are and he will remain in our local public school system. We have received much more assistance and friendly help than FSDB has ever attempted. It has been my experience that FSDB functions with the same attitude as the large corporations and Banks of America. They are more concerned with padding their pockets than doing the jobs they are paid to do. Thank you for your advice. On 2/23/09, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > perhaps a more enlightened approach would be to advocate for your son's > education at the county level. There are many pros and cons about having > blind children educated in residential settings as they do not foster full > socialization with sighted children. The main benefit would be that your son > would receive Braille instruction that might not be able to be provided by > your county department of education. Not being familiar with the specifics > of your county's education department I can't comment on all of the pros and > cons but the laws generally encourage education in the least restrictive > environment. I realize that I am probably opening a big can of worms here by > posting this but I think that in planning for your son's education you need > to be aware of all options. I also realize that I am showing some of my own > biases toward forced county and local school districts to do what they are > supposed to do and that is mainstream and accommodate students. > Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal > 1237 P Street > Fresno ca 93721 > 559-266-9237 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Philip Breeze" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:31 AM > Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind > > >> Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 year >> old >> sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an update on >> the situation and find it extremely difficult to understand. The facts >> are >> as follows: >> >> February 2008 -- I applied for my son to attend FSDB. >> May 2008 -- I received a letter disqualifying my son from attending. >> July 2008 -- I met with the school president and staff, non of whom >> evaluated my son's records. No person in the meeting could explain the >> reason for refusing him entry other than the evaluators must have seen >> something in his records to disqualify him. They determined that he was >> Trainable Mentally Handicap and could not answer the question of how they >> determined this. >> October 2008 -- I filed a complaint with Florida Department of Education. >> FDOE determined that FSDB acted unethically and ordered FSDB to show proof >> of findings. FSDB refused such saying they no longer had his records and >> that we need to reapply. FDOE also ordered FSDB to refrain from using the >> terminology Trainable Mentally Handicap as it is no longer used in the >> professional world. >> >> Here we are in February of 2009 and FSDB has yet to admit that they used >> prejudice in evaluating my child and will not accept responsibility of >> such >> even after being ordered by FDOE. FSDB to this day has never seen my son >> in >> person. I contacted several attorney's and learned that FSDB is notorious >> for being sued and spending millions of dollars to prevent children that >> are >> slow learners from attending. Yes, my son is developmentally delayed. He >> was born blind and has very low muscle tone (hypotonia). FSDB prefers to >> allow enrollment to those visually impaired children that are most easily >> educated and to accept deaf children. They *DO NOT WANT* young totally >> blind children. This could possibly impact their bragging rights to >> success. >> >> I have come to the realization the FSDB, a State of Florida public school >> discriminates against young blind children. They violate every aspect of >> IDEA and No Child Left behind. They accept federal assistance and private >> donations. They have a budget of $40 million dollars and only 700 >> children. They retain a high dollar attorney from Atlanta to keep >> children >> out. This is most blatant case of fraud, waste and abuse I have ever >> seen. >> They excuse themselves by saying that they do not have the money nor man >> power to educate children that have multiple disabilities and those >> children >> have other options. My options are to stay locally and have my child >> educated by a county that has few blind children and no experience with >> teaching them or to leave the state to attend a school elsewhere. >> >> I never in my mind thought that I would have to fight to get my child >> accepted to a school for blind children. These people work for the >> Governor >> of Florida, the FSDB board is appointed by Governor Crist. There in >> something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission is to >> educate blind children and they refuse to do so. >> >> My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer this >> sort of discrimination in our society. >> >> Philip Breeze >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > From JMcCarthy at nfb.org Tue Feb 24 17:04:23 2009 From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org (McCarthy, Jim) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:04:23 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <20090224132509.GK91686@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B26D5B6@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> There are two lines of inquiry in this thread I will address. The first, is Mr. Carter's understanding of the Disabled Adult Child status under Social Security. It is an unfortunate truth that all too often, staff at the Social Security Administration does a terrible job explaining their disability programs. The fact is probably that they really don't know these programs themselves and cannot, therefore explain them to us. Basically though Disabled Adult Child (DAC) status is exactly like SSDI. The primary difference is that a DAC cannot keep benefits if he or she marries someone who does not receive social security benefits. Even Supplemental Security Income benefits terminates DAC status as would social security benefits to a student under 18. Therefore, if one is a blind DAC, blindness rules including the higher SGA amount apply. Now, I will address the stimulus. There is a $250 amount to be paid to every Social Security beneficiary, or Supplemental Security Income recipient. Getting both will not get a person two $250 payments though. These are supposed to be provided between now and the end of May though it will take some time to set up the payment mechanism so it seems that most of the payments will be offered in April and May. Other funding in the legislation goes to state government agencies. Vocational Rehabilitation receives funding. This funding comes to states based on the rehab funding formula but there is no match requirement. I am not sure how Mark would prefer the funding to be given, but there is a general government aversion to handing people sums of money and letting them do as they wish. It would be pretty much impossible to track how the money was used if that were done. Those of us who deal with rehab though should start seeing a greater willingness from those agencies to serve or at least lack of money should be less of a barrier. I think that the allotment is about 15% of the total that goes to rehab, though the funding formula may create strange results in some states. The fact remains though that this is money to the states for rehab with no strings! The other disability related funding is less directly related to employment. It includes money for education and health care. Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 8:25 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination I heard specifically SSI and SSDI. I haven't heard that all people receiving social security do. I am considered a "disabled child adult" receiving social security through my deceased father. From what I understand about this (which isn't much, because frankly the SSA people I've talked to don't understand this either), MOST of what benefits exist for the blind--such as employment incentives--just do not exist for me. Lack of understanding on their part has resulted in penalties on my part in the form of withholdings to undo their mistakes, and I am warned that if I make even as much as part-time minimum wage I will quickly lose all social security and medicare benefits as well. (That situation has also gotten messed up..) Jim, can you shed some light on this by chance? I can't get one from the SSA. Joseph On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 08:07:19PM -0800, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Its my understanding that blind epople whwo are Social Security > recipients would receive a $250 check. I'm not positive about the > amount but this is the latest figure I heard. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:51 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > >> I'd like to have some more information on how, if at all, this >> stimulus plan affects me as a blind and unemployed man seeking a job. >> My impression was that there was very little benefit that would >> trickle down to me; if I'm wrong, I'd love a chance to learn otherwise? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40 >> sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjose > ph%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nf b.org From b75205 at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 20:30:23 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:30:23 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Locke: I see this all the time and I describe this stuff in the book, and I think that when people realize the hoops we have to jump through just to read simple stuff, then there will be a call to change. I have a Congrssman who is going to make a big fuss over all this and so i will see what kind of trouble I can cause in Washington! This stuff is just a disgrace, thats all it is. James On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Locke Milholland wrote: > James, > On the subject of website form accessibility, I recently applied for > tickets to the Antiques road show. Luckily, I had a friend (my wife)around. > Here is what I encountered: > Please type the password shown in the image above into the field below, > then click Submit. > > If you are unable to read the image, please ask a friend or request tickets > via postcard instead. > > > At least it's not the current Technology road show. > > Locke > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 20:36:12 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:36:12 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So you are saying that ticketmaster is categorizing all the blind into one class and designating seats based on their ability to use their website, instead of allowing them to choose where they want to sit. Ticketmaster is assuming that we cannot choose where we want to sit? I think you guys should look into this type of profiling based on their website. Thats a decision they made by coding that into the website, to profile the blind. James On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 1:36 PM, tim and vickie shaw < timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote: > > oh ya, i love that. If you try to buy via ticketmaster for something and > cant see the image you click a link and it lets you get around it somehow, > cant remember exactly, but then will only let you by handicap seat tickets > which are usually crap > > > From: lmilholland at hotmail.com > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:18:12 -0500 > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > > > James, > > On the subject of website form accessibility, I recently applied for > tickets > > to the Antiques road show. Luckily, I had a friend (my wife)around. > Here > > is what I encountered: > > Please type the password shown in the image above into the field below, > then > > click Submit. > > > > If you are unable to read the image, please ask a friend or request > tickets > > via postcard instead. > > > > > > At least it's not the current Technology road show. > > > > Locke > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live™: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. > > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From timandvickie at hotmail.com Tue Feb 24 21:45:02 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:45:02 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: its been a few years since I bought tickets on there so I Cant say for sure they still do it, but ya. it limited your seating choices big time. Kinda reminds me of when i went to see David LEtterman when i was in NY, I was toward the front of the line to get in so we would have got a pretty good seat, but tehy pulled me aside when they saw my cane and said i ddnt have to wait in line theyd go ahead and take me in and seat me and my wife. They took us in and say us in the back of the theater with a little TV infront of me hanging form the ceilign that I could even see as if that was gonna help me see lol. Woudla been way better off sitting up front. > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:36:12 -0600 > From: b75205 at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > So you are saying that ticketmaster is categorizing all the blind into one > class and designating seats based on their ability to use their website, > instead of allowing them to choose where they want to sit. Ticketmaster is > assuming that we cannot choose where we want to sit? I think you guys > should look into this type of profiling based on their website. Thats a > decision they made by coding that into the website, to profile the blind. > > James > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 1:36 PM, tim and vickie shaw < > timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > oh ya, i love that. If you try to buy via ticketmaster for something and > > cant see the image you click a link and it lets you get around it somehow, > > cant remember exactly, but then will only let you by handicap seat tickets > > which are usually crap > > > > > From: lmilholland at hotmail.com > > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:18:12 -0500 > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > > > > > James, > > > On the subject of website form accessibility, I recently applied for > > tickets > > > to the Antiques road show. Luckily, I had a friend (my wife)around. > > Here > > > is what I encountered: > > > Please type the password shown in the image above into the field below, > > then > > > click Submit. > > > > > > If you are unable to read the image, please ask a friend or request > > tickets > > > via postcard instead. > > > > > > > > > At least it's not the current Technology road show. > > > > > > Locke > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows Live™: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. > > > > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_022009 From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 24 23:04:00 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 15:04:00 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com><754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> Message-ID: <630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> the same thing happened to a friend who owed back taxes to the IRS. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:26 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > As an interesting caveat to that, I did not receive the last stimulus > check, because my government student loans garnished it. Even though I > had a a deferment with them, apparently they still consider me in arrears > and therefore I didn't get Bush's stimulus, and probably won't get this > one either. Just a heads-up for those others of you who might have GSL. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From rjs059 at peoplepc.com Wed Feb 25 01:30:14 2009 From: rjs059 at peoplepc.com (rjs059 at peoplepc.com) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 20:30:14 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind References: <20090223.170339.2012.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <88afe4410902231623x715e110fkc671366f9661217a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <024201c996e8$9ce7b620$4781fe04@rjige047kjawst> You made the best decision for your son. Sincerely, RJ Sandefur ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Breeze" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind > Hi Patrick, I appreciate your understanding and support. We have > contacted > the Governors office and we were referred back to the Florida Department > of > Education. This sytem is full of nepotism, the current Chair of the Board > of Directors is the secretary for Florida State Representative Bill > Proctor > . Mr. Proctor resided on this board for 15 plus years. They appointment > friends and family to keep things running smoothly and quietly. They > recently replaced the president of the school with the vice president. > > The Florida School for the Deaf and Blind has a written policy to not > accept > children with extreme learning delays, it is published and known. We have > a > file over 2 inches thick that we have compiled with correspondence. Each > person passes the buck. The school has been challenged by other parents > in > the past and when they in, the schoolw appeals and the case continues for > years while the child pays the price. My understanding is that the school > wins 70 percent of the time, parents win 11 percent and then it goes to > appeal. They have very deep tax payers pockets. > > The question lies in what is extreme and what is the cause. They use the > term "trainable mentally handicapped" as a catch all phrase. My 6 year > old > son taught himself to echo locate, to count to 100 by 2's he can easily > spell over 100 words and can memorize children's books verbatim front to > back. His kindergarten teacher is amazed at his memorization ability. > However, he does lack in conceptual development and that is the thing I > feel > FSDB can teach him best. But, this developmental delay makes him seem > retarded on paper. > > We recently brought up a psychologist with 50 years of experience in > evaluating children with varying visual impairment. My son is lacking in > conceptual development and I felt FSDB would be best suited for teaching > him > this. After speaking with various professionals that have close dealings > with the school I have learned differently. A University of Florida > Psychiatrist's son attended the school and said psychiatrist felt the > school > os sub standard in caring for children. The psycholigist that evaluated > my > son feels the same, as does an attorney that works with deaf children and > has worked with the school in the past. With that information we have > decided to stay local and put our money toward private education. > > This is truely as sad waste of tax payers money and most people have no > clue. I now consider the Florida School for the Deaf and Blind, "Florida > Token School". Their conscience is relieved in thinking that they are > serving their community. > > If only Oprah could publish this story. Feel free to pass the > information, > we have documented the whole journey. > > Philip > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Patrick H. Stiehm > wrote: > >> Philip, >> >> What you have related is on its face appalling and inexcusable. As long >> as you have done everything that they have asked you to do, I think it's >> time to contact the Governor's office directly. This is not the type of >> story that any government official wants the press to get a hold of. >> (Remember the foster children that got lost in the state system under the >> Bush administration? I'm sure the current governor would not want a >> similar story that will raise the specter of that incident.) >> >> In addition to the Governor's office you should contact your state >> legislators. Government employees are susceptible to the pressure that >> can be brought on them by the chief executive of the state as well as >> members of the legislature. He should not hesitate to pursue such a >> course of action. >> >> Patrick H. Stiehm >> Stiehm Law Office >> Alexandria, VA 22309 >> 703-360-1089 (Voice) >> 703-935-8266 (Fax) >> >> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:31:25 -0600 Philip Breeze >> writes: >> > Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 >> > year old >> > sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an >> > >> > >> > >> > something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission >> > is to >> > educate blind children and they refuse to do so. >> > >> > My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer >> > this >> > sort of discrimination in our society. >> > >> > Philip Breeze >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for blindlaw: >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >> no.com >> > >> > >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now! >> >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTK8PHAGEPqSm27C8DV01LcnWuMncPk1yOjtaNFhy1hgpkfraWJBs8/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1970 - Release Date: 2/24/2009 1:35 PM From mikefry79 at gmail.com Wed Feb 25 03:54:39 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:54:39 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind In-Reply-To: <024201c996e8$9ce7b620$4781fe04@rjige047kjawst> References: <20090223.170339.2012.2.stiehm.law@juno.com> <88afe4410902231623x715e110fkc671366f9661217a@mail.gmail.com> <024201c996e8$9ce7b620$4781fe04@rjige047kjawst> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902241954u702aa295r4e21bbf6f9984b2@mail.gmail.com> I likewise am sorry to hear about this situation Philip. On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 5:30 PM, wrote: > You made the best decision for your son. Sincerely, RJ Sandefur > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Breeze" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:23 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Florida School for the Deaf and Blind > > > Hi Patrick, I appreciate your understanding and support. We have >> contacted >> the Governors office and we were referred back to the Florida Department >> of >> Education. This sytem is full of nepotism, the current Chair of the Board >> of Directors is the secretary for Florida State Representative Bill >> Proctor >> . Mr. Proctor resided on this board for 15 plus years. They appointment >> friends and family to keep things running smoothly and quietly. They >> recently replaced the president of the school with the vice president. >> >> The Florida School for the Deaf and Blind has a written policy to not >> accept >> children with extreme learning delays, it is published and known. We have >> a >> file over 2 inches thick that we have compiled with correspondence. Each >> person passes the buck. The school has been challenged by other parents >> in >> the past and when they in, the schoolw appeals and the case continues for >> years while the child pays the price. My understanding is that the school >> wins 70 percent of the time, parents win 11 percent and then it goes to >> appeal. They have very deep tax payers pockets. >> >> The question lies in what is extreme and what is the cause. They use the >> term "trainable mentally handicapped" as a catch all phrase. My 6 year >> old >> son taught himself to echo locate, to count to 100 by 2's he can easily >> spell over 100 words and can memorize children's books verbatim front to >> back. His kindergarten teacher is amazed at his memorization ability. >> However, he does lack in conceptual development and that is the thing I >> feel >> FSDB can teach him best. But, this developmental delay makes him seem >> retarded on paper. >> >> We recently brought up a psychologist with 50 years of experience in >> evaluating children with varying visual impairment. My son is lacking in >> conceptual development and I felt FSDB would be best suited for teaching >> him >> this. After speaking with various professionals that have close dealings >> with the school I have learned differently. A University of Florida >> Psychiatrist's son attended the school and said psychiatrist felt the >> school >> os sub standard in caring for children. The psycholigist that evaluated >> my >> son feels the same, as does an attorney that works with deaf children and >> has worked with the school in the past. With that information we have >> decided to stay local and put our money toward private education. >> >> This is truely as sad waste of tax payers money and most people have no >> clue. I now consider the Florida School for the Deaf and Blind, "Florida >> Token School". Their conscience is relieved in thinking that they are >> serving their community. >> >> If only Oprah could publish this story. Feel free to pass the >> information, >> we have documented the whole journey. >> >> Philip >> >> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Patrick H. Stiehm > >wrote: >> >> Philip, >>> >>> What you have related is on its face appalling and inexcusable. As long >>> as you have done everything that they have asked you to do, I think it's >>> time to contact the Governor's office directly. This is not the type of >>> story that any government official wants the press to get a hold of. >>> (Remember the foster children that got lost in the state system under the >>> Bush administration? I'm sure the current governor would not want a >>> similar story that will raise the specter of that incident.) >>> >>> In addition to the Governor's office you should contact your state >>> legislators. Government employees are susceptible to the pressure that >>> can be brought on them by the chief executive of the state as well as >>> members of the legislature. He should not hesitate to pursue such a >>> course of action. >>> >>> Patrick H. Stiehm >>> Stiehm Law Office >>> Alexandria, VA 22309 >>> 703-360-1089 (Voice) >>> 703-935-8266 (Fax) >>> >>> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:31:25 -0600 Philip Breeze >>> writes: >>> > Hello everyone, a few months back I posted an entry concerning my 6 >>> > year old >>> > sons application to The Florida School for the Blind. I have an >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > something severely wrong with an organization whose primary mission >>> > is to >>> > educate blind children and they refuse to do so. >>> > >>> > My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you that continue to suffer >>> > this >>> > sort of discrimination in our society. >>> > >>> > Philip Breeze >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for blindlaw: >>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju >>> no.com< >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju%0Ano.com >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> ____________________________________________________________ >>> Purify your water with professional water treatment. Click now! >>> >>> >>> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTK8PHAGEPqSm27C8DV01LcnWuMncPk1yOjtaNFhy1hgpkfraWJBs8/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com >> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1970 - Release Date: 2/24/2009 > 1:35 PM > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 12:10:13 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 04:10:13 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have neer understood the relationship that seems to exist in the minds of sighted people between blindness and needing preferential seating. Mere blindness alone would not cause any such need, that I can figure out, but another disability that affects walking, balance or whatever might. Why must a blind person sit in a certain area of a theater, or board a plane first, or not sit in an exit row? If the argument is, "It will take you longer to find your seat because you can't see," that's plainly absurd, as anyone who's observed someone trying to find their car in a parking garage will attest to. So, why am I bombarded with requests that I stick out like a sore thumb by not only having someone lead me about by the hand, but also having that someone make sure I'm all safe in my special little seat? What gives? From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 12:12:01 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 04:12:01 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: <630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com><754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> <630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> Message-ID: Corollary: Can a government student loan garnish my SSDI? If that happens, there goes the neighborhood--anyone wanna buy a kidney? :) From angie.matney at gmail.com Wed Feb 25 14:46:44 2009 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:46:44 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] OT Seating Message-ID: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> I know some people with residual vision who prefer to sit where they can actually see what's going on. For this reason, they might ask for accessible seating, though this obviously might be different from seating that is most accessible for people who use wheel chairs. This part of the message is not directed at Mark. I wonder if we could try to have the subject lines reflecting the topic under discussion. It looks like several threads are being discussed under "job discrimination." Thanks for making a law student's life a bit less chaotic. :) Angie Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination From: Mark BurningHawk Date: 02/25/2009 7:47 AM I have neer understood the relationship that seems to exist in the minds of sighted people between blindness and needing preferential seating. Mere blindness alone would not cause any such need, that I can figure out, but another disability that affects walking, balance or whatever might. Why must a blind person sit in a certain area of a theater, or board a plane first, or not sit in an exit row? If the argument is, "It will take you longer to find your seat because you can't see," that's plainly absurd, as anyone who's observed someone trying to find their car in a parking garage will attest to. So, why am I bombarded with requests that I stick out like a sore thumb by not only having someone lead me about by the hand, but also having that someone make sure I'm all safe in my special little seat? What gives? _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Feb 25 16:40:30 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:40:30 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Employment Opportunity Message-ID: ________________________________ From: Members of the GPSLD [mailto:GOVPUBDIV at MAIL.ABANET.ORG] On Behalf Of ABA Government and Public Sector Lawyers Division Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 8:38 AM To: GOVPUBDIV at MAIL.ABANET.ORG Subject: FW: Employment Opportunity GPSLD Member: Please see below about an employment opportunity for lawyers with experience with defending or prosecuting sexual assault cases. If interested, please send your resume to Cynthia Rapp - cjrapp at supremecourt.gov - by March 20, 2009. Here is a unique and very important career opportunity for civilian attorneys who are especially skilled in the areas of special victim and sexual assault prosecution and defense. The Secretary of the Army has authorized the Judge Advocate General of the Army, LTG Scott Black, to recruit and appoint a total of seven Highly Qualified Experts in the above mentioned legal skill areas. These legal training teams share their expert knowledge of prosecution and defense of special victim and sexual assault cases with the US Army Judge Advocate prosecutors and defense attorneys responsible for prosecuting and defending Soldiers at trial by Court Martial. No prior experience with Courts Martial is required. The seven Highly Qualified Experts will be a part of a legal team consisting of active duty Judge Advocates who are experts in military justice. This legal training team will provide instruction and training at The Judge Advocate General's Legal Center and School, located on the grounds of the University of Virginia. The legal training team also travels to present the Trial Counsel Assistance Program and the Defense Counsel Assistance Program to Judge Advocate prosecutors and defense attorneys stationed abroad. The Highly Qualified Expert positions are civilian positions. The Judge Advocate General of the Army seeks attorneys who possess uncommon and recognized skills and experience associated with either trying special victim/sexual assault cases or with developing the advocacy skills for those trying these cases. For example, a state prosecutor with experience in supervising a special victim unit would possess an ideal level of expertise sought for these seven HQE positions. To assist us with finding the very best candidates to meet this important mission, we ask that you forward the contact information of those uniquely qualified candidates that you believe may be interested in serving in this special role. We also know there are current and former/retired Judge Advocates who may be qualified for such positions, although given the focus above this pool will be small. If interested, please forward their names as well. It is worth noting that potential military candidates must be fully separated from the Service; they may not be on terminal leave upon entering the position. From APrevost at Sidley.com Wed Feb 25 17:00:41 2009 From: APrevost at Sidley.com (Prevost, Ann Marie) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:00:41 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] OT Seating In-Reply-To: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> References: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have given up on theaters/stadiums that have an office for the disabled to get tickets for my daughter who is visually impaired. I have no idea how they decide on what seats to give the visually impaired, but they are simply ridiculous. They are so far away from the stage it is useless. Luckily I live in New York and I go directly to the Theater to get tickets. Of course this means we are paying a premium as seats close up are premium. Not fair. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Angie Matney Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:47 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] OT Seating I know some people with residual vision who prefer to sit where they can actually see what's going on. For this reason, they might ask for accessible seating, though this obviously might be different from seating that is most accessible for people who use wheel chairs. This part of the message is not directed at Mark. I wonder if we could try to have the subject lines reflecting the topic under discussion. It looks like several threads are being discussed under "job discrimination." Thanks for making a law student's life a bit less chaotic. :) Angie Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination From: Mark BurningHawk Date: 02/25/2009 7:47 AM I have neer understood the relationship that seems to exist in the minds of sighted people between blindness and needing preferential seating. Mere blindness alone would not cause any such need, that I can figure out, but another disability that affects walking, balance or whatever might. Why must a blind person sit in a certain area of a theater, or board a plane first, or not sit in an exit row? If the argument is, "It will take you longer to find your seat because you can't see," that's plainly absurd, as anyone who's observed someone trying to find their car in a parking garage will attest to. So, why am I bombarded with requests that I stick out like a sore thumb by not only having someone lead me about by the hand, but also having that someone make sure I'm all safe in my special little seat? What gives? _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aprevost%40sidley.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: To comply with certain U.S. Treasury regulations, we inform you that, unless expressly stated otherwise, any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication, including attachments, was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding any penalties that may be imposed on such taxpayer by the Internal Revenue Service. In addition, if any such tax advice is used or referred to by other parties in promoting, marketing or recommending any partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement, then (i) the advice should be construed as written in connection with the promotion or marketing by others of the transaction(s) or matter(s) addressed in this communication and (ii) the taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayer's particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor. **************************************************************************************************** This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately. **************************************************************************************************** From timandvickie at hotmail.com Wed Feb 25 17:05:21 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:05:21 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] OT Seating In-Reply-To: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> References: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> Message-ID: oh i have some vision to, and i do prefer a close seat so i can see, but they dont take that into account when they designate accessible seating. As far as they are concerned accessible seating is spaces for wheel chairs or seats near the back of the theater. I tried to go to a baseball game awhile back and we had already bought tickets and I asked the box office if they had any accessible seating that I could change my tickets to and they said they did but id have to pay a hire ticket cost because tehy only had the accessible seatign in a certain section that was a hight cost section. > From: angie.matney at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:46:44 -0500 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] OT Seating > > I know some people with residual vision who prefer to sit where they can actually see what's going on. For this reason, they might ask for accessible seating, though this obviously might be different from seating that is most accessible for people who use wheel chairs. > > This part of the message is not directed at Mark. I wonder if we could try to have the subject lines reflecting the topic under discussion. It looks like several threads are being discussed under "job discrimination." > > Thanks for making a law student's life a bit less chaotic. :) > > Angie > > Sent from my Nokia N82. > > -original message- > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > From: Mark BurningHawk > Date: 02/25/2009 7:47 AM > > I have neer understood the relationship that seems to exist in the > minds of sighted people between blindness and needing preferential > seating. Mere blindness alone would not cause any such need, that I > can figure out, but another disability that affects walking, balance > or whatever might. Why must a blind person sit in a certain area of a > theater, or board a plane first, or not sit in an exit row? If the > argument is, "It will take you longer to find your seat because you > can't see," that's plainly absurd, as anyone who's observed someone > trying to find their car in a parking garage will attest to. So, why > am I bombarded with requests that I stick out like a sore thumb by not > only having someone lead me about by the hand, but also having that > someone make sure I'm all safe in my special little seat? What gives? > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009 From APrevost at Sidley.com Wed Feb 25 18:07:56 2009 From: APrevost at Sidley.com (Prevost, Ann Marie) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 13:07:56 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] OT Seating In-Reply-To: References: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes it takes tremendous time and effort to get a reasonable seat at a somewhat reasonable price. It is in fact, exhausting. Sadly many people take advantage of disabled seating, parking and other perceived "perks" making those who might help the visually impaired with reasonable seating skeptical and often unwilling to help. It takes a monumental effort to get to the right person and have them listen. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 12:05 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] OT Seating oh i have some vision to, and i do prefer a close seat so i can see, but they dont take that into account when they designate accessible seating. As far as they are concerned accessible seating is spaces for wheel chairs or seats near the back of the theater. I tried to go to a baseball game awhile back and we had already bought tickets and I asked the box office if they had any accessible seating that I could change my tickets to and they said they did but id have to pay a hire ticket cost because tehy only had the accessible seatign in a certain section that was a hight cost section. > From: angie.matney at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:46:44 -0500 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] OT Seating > > I know some people with residual vision who prefer to sit where they can actually see what's going on. For this reason, they might ask for accessible seating, though this obviously might be different from seating that is most accessible for people who use wheel chairs. > > This part of the message is not directed at Mark. I wonder if we could try to have the subject lines reflecting the topic under discussion. It looks like several threads are being discussed under "job discrimination." > > Thanks for making a law student's life a bit less chaotic. :) > > Angie > > Sent from my Nokia N82. > > -original message- > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > From: Mark BurningHawk > Date: 02/25/2009 7:47 AM > > I have neer understood the relationship that seems to exist in the > minds of sighted people between blindness and needing preferential > seating. Mere blindness alone would not cause any such need, that I > can figure out, but another disability that affects walking, balance > or whatever might. Why must a blind person sit in a certain area of a > theater, or board a plane first, or not sit in an exit row? If the > argument is, "It will take you longer to find your seat because you > can't see," that's plainly absurd, as anyone who's observed someone > trying to find their car in a parking garage will attest to. So, why > am I bombarded with requests that I stick out like a sore thumb by not > only having someone lead me about by the hand, but also having that > someone make sure I'm all safe in my special little seat? What gives? > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aprevost%40sidley.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: To comply with certain U.S. Treasury regulations, we inform you that, unless expressly stated otherwise, any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication, including attachments, was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding any penalties that may be imposed on such taxpayer by the Internal Revenue Service. In addition, if any such tax advice is used or referred to by other parties in promoting, marketing or recommending any partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement, then (i) the advice should be construed as written in connection with the promotion or marketing by others of the transaction(s) or matter(s) addressed in this communication and (ii) the taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayer's particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor. **************************************************************************************************** This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately. **************************************************************************************************** From rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com Wed Feb 25 18:13:23 2009 From: rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:13:23 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] OT Seating In-Reply-To: References: <4DJtkVRPZ4wr.06KYqpBM@smtp.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001c99774$bf51f630$6901a8c0@RThomas> Check recent case law on this topic and the DOJ guidelines; the law is evolving in this area. Respectfully, Russell J. Thomas, Jr. THOMAS & ASSOCIATES www.employersattorneys.com Orange County Office 4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101 Newport Beach, California 92660 T: (949) 752-0101 F: (949) 257-4756 M: (949) 466-7238 Beverly Hills Office 9107 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 450 Beverly Hills, California 90210 T: (310) 461-3561 -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Prevost, Ann Marie Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:01 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] OT Seating I have given up on theaters/stadiums that have an office for the disabled to get tickets for my daughter who is visually impaired. I have no idea how they decide on what seats to give the visually impaired, but they are simply ridiculous. They are so far away from the stage it is useless. Luckily I live in New York and I go directly to the Theater to get tickets. Of course this means we are paying a premium as seats close up are premium. Not fair. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Angie Matney Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:47 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] OT Seating I know some people with residual vision who prefer to sit where they can actually see what's going on. For this reason, they might ask for accessible seating, though this obviously might be different from seating that is most accessible for people who use wheel chairs. This part of the message is not directed at Mark. I wonder if we could try to have the subject lines reflecting the topic under discussion. It looks like several threads are being discussed under "job discrimination." Thanks for making a law student's life a bit less chaotic. :) Angie Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination From: Mark BurningHawk Date: 02/25/2009 7:47 AM I have neer understood the relationship that seems to exist in the minds of sighted people between blindness and needing preferential seating. Mere blindness alone would not cause any such need, that I can figure out, but another disability that affects walking, balance or whatever might. Why must a blind person sit in a certain area of a theater, or board a plane first, or not sit in an exit row? If the argument is, "It will take you longer to find your seat because you can't see," that's plainly absurd, as anyone who's observed someone trying to find their car in a parking garage will attest to. So, why am I bombarded with requests that I stick out like a sore thumb by not only having someone lead me about by the hand, but also having that someone make sure I'm all safe in my special little seat? What gives? _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/aprevost%40sidley. com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: To comply with certain U.S. Treasury regulations, we inform you that, unless expressly stated otherwise, any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication, including attachments, was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding any penalties that may be imposed on such taxpayer by the Internal Revenue Service. In addition, if any such tax advice is used or referred to by other parties in promoting, marketing or recommending any partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement, then (i) the advice should be construed as written in connection with the promotion or marketing by others of the transaction(s) or matter(s) addressed in this communication and (ii) the taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayer's particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor. **************************************************************************** ************************ This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately. **************************************************************************** ************************ _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo .com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Feb 25 18:34:35 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:34:35 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Scholarship Application for Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities conference Message-ID: Scholarships are available for the ABA Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities conference. See below. ________________________________ From: CMPDL's Disability Discussion Docket (3D) [mailto:CMPDL-3D at MAIL.ABANET.ORG] On Behalf Of Phelan, William Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:18 PM To: CMPDL-3D at MAIL.ABANET.ORG Subject: Scholarship Application Available All: The application to apply for scholarships for the Second ABA National Conference on the Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities is now up: http://new.abanet.org/CALENDAR/2ND-NATIONAL-CONFERENCE-ON-EMPLOYMENT-OF-LAWYERS-WITH-DISABILITIES/Pages/ScholarshipInformation.aspx Please be sure to read the instructions in the actual document as to determine whether you are eligible and so you can fill the form out properly. Also note applications are due no later than Friday May 15, 2009. Determinations will be made shortly after that date so if you do not receive a scholarship, you are still able to register for the Conference's 'early bird' rate. Best, Bill William J. Phelan, IV, Esq. Special Projects and Technology Coordinator Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law American Bar Association 740 15th Street, NW, 9th Floor Washington, DC 20005-1022 T: 202.662.1576 F: 202.442.3439 phelanw at staff.abanet.org www.abanet.org/disability --------- [http://www.abanet.org/disability/images/3Dlogo.jpg] Disability Discussion Docket (3D) ABA Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law http://www.abanet.org/disability --------- To leave this list at any time, please send a message to listserv at mail.abanet.org. In the body of the message type "sign off cmpdl-3d." If you have any questions about 3D or the CMPDL in general, please contact William Phelan at phelanw at staff.abanet.org. From Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV Wed Feb 25 20:26:53 2009 From: Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV (Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:26:53 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] GINA Notice of Proposed rule Making Message-ID: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1615A7B@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov> Some on these lists might be interested in the notice of proposed rule making from the EEOC concerning the new Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act. /s/ Bennett Prows ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~EEOC Seeks Public Comment on Proposed Regulations Implementing Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act Commission Embarks on Historic New Area of Jurisdiction CONTACT: David Grinberg or Justine Lisser, (202) 663-4191 TTY: (202) 663-4494 WASHINGTON - Embarking on a historic new area of jurisdiction, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) today presented a Notice of Proposed Rule Making implementing employment provisions of the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008 (GINA), and urged public comment. "The addition of genetic information discrimination to the EEOC's mandate is historic, and represents the first legislative expansion of the EEOC's jurisdiction since the Americans with Disabilities Act passed in 1990," said Acting EEOC Chairman Stuart J. Ishimaru. "We welcome the opportunity to implement important provisions of this landmark legislation, and to expand the promise of equal opportunity in the workplace for everyone." Acting EEOC Vice Chair Christine M. Griffin said, "GINA is an important piece of legislation. As a deliberative body, we want to ensure that the intent of Congress is properly carried out through our regulations. Public comment on this NPRM is a critical part of that process. We look forward to a vigorous and thoughtful review." GINA, signed into law in May 2008, prohibits discrimination by health insurers and employers based on people's genetic information. The EEOC is charged with issuing regulations by May 21 implementing Title II of GINA, which prohibits the use of genetic information in employment, prohibits the intentional acquisition of genetic information about applicants and employees, and imposes strict confidentiality requirements. The EEOC opened a 60-day public comment period on the proposed rule-making at a Commission meeting today. Also at the meeting, a panel of experts hailed GINA for allowing people to advance their health care without risking their jobs. "We know that in the past, patients have passed up genetic testing that could benefit their health, and have gone to great lengths to keep genetic information secret - even from their own doctors," said Susannah Baruch, law and policy director of the Pew-supported Genetics and Public Policy Center at Johns Hopkins University. "With the passage of GINA and its implementation, we welcome a new era. There are many factors an individual may consider in deciding whether to take a genetic test, but the fear of discrimination must not be one of them." Other panelists at today's meeting included: * Karen S. Elliott, attorney with Gregory Kaplan, PLC and member, Society for Human Resource Management * Jeremy Gruber, president and executive Director, Council for Responsible Genetics * Andrew J. Imparato, president and chief executive officer, American Association of People with Disabilities * Rae T. Vann, general counsel, Equal Employment Advisory Council * Christopher J. Kuczynski, assistant legal counsel, ADA Policy Division, EEOC The EEOC enforces federal laws prohibiting employment discrimination. Further information about the EEOC is available on its Web site (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102476480387&e=001i3Pe907gVLp_Xxz4CRXPwfiLqnC lEJU11XQgXvIy5E-cOgmB6rff53cOQ60ODmDeWURiQ4lsePWZepEW2z6PYUFP3BEaexbhQQ- ao_3jDag=).
# # # From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 25 23:08:28 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:08:28 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com><754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike><630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> Message-ID: Social Security disability payments can be garnished whereas SSI payments cannot. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:12 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > Corollary: Can a government student loan garnish my SSDI? If that > happens, there goes the neighborhood--anyone wanna buy a kidney? :) > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Wed Feb 25 23:10:05 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:10:05 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Former NCD Advisory Committee Members Honored Message-ID: Congrats, Stephanie! Former NCD Advisory Committee Members Honored Former NCD Youth Advisory Committee members Stephanie Enyart and Victor Pineda are winners of the American Association of People with Disabilities (AAPD) 2009 Paul G. Hearne Award. Ms. Enyart is a recent UCLA graduate and founding member and president of the National Association of Law Students with Disabilities. Mr. Pineda is a doctoral candidate, founder and president of the Victor Pineda Foundation, an educational nonprofit, and manages The Disability Media Initiative. The AAPD award (http://aapd.com/Communications/2009LeadershipWinner.html) recognizes young leaders. Congratulations to both. From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Wed Feb 25 23:55:22 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com> <8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com> <754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike> <630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> Message-ID: <41CB34ECE4FF4361B1E51BD48A553E59@StevePC> "Good, if you don't pay back federal or state loans, they should be garnished. Just because your blind, does not mean you should not have to pay back loans to any entity! As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should be eligible for garnishment. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > Social Security disability payments can be garnished whereas SSI payments > cannot. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark BurningHawk" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:12 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > >> Corollary: Can a government student loan garnish my SSDI? If that >> happens, there goes the neighborhood--anyone wanna buy a kidney? :) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 06:40:00 From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 00:20:03 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:20:03 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination In-Reply-To: References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com><754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike><630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> Message-ID: Thanks for that fact. From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Thu Feb 26 00:27:54 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:27:54 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA Message-ID: >From Special Ed Connection Key points: 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to whether accommodation reasonable Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. Jenkins v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, which rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in light of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into court, according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in Austin, Texas. "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," he said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as someone with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the core requirement of the ADA. The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And on that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and rule against Jenkins again. "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how quick you are, is how quickly you process." But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are requesting is reasonable, Martín said. "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able to argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this is not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the case. That's the fundamental analytical shift." Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with qualifying disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." Martín did not go that far in his remarks. "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed . . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light of the new law,'" he said. Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín said. "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as to whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, then that should be rethought altogether." Special Ed Connection® related stories: College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations (Feb. 24) *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act Roundup. Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special education issues for LRP Publications. February 24, 2009 Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications From angie at mpmail.net Thu Feb 26 00:58:40 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:58:40 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <41CB34ECE4FF4361B1E51BD48A553E59@StevePC> Message-ID: Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a difference. Angie On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >be eligible for garnishment. From heyitslu at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 01:36:32 2009 From: heyitslu at gmail.com (Alex) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:36:32 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination Message-ID: Back to the subject of the interview in which higher insurance premiums would be the cost of hiring a blind person,... Because this is the way I usually handle these episodes, I would have answered with a question,... "When did wearing glasses cause insurance premiums to increase? And, if your insurance carrier increases premiums because a blind person is working here, you might want to search for another option because there are some out there who have heard of the ADA and for that matter have some shred of common sense." I realize that would not have gotten me the job either, but I got my first job after answering the call for an interview by telling my future employer that if she was not willing to hire a blind person to work for her, I would like to decline the interview. I had been on many interviews over an 18 month period and felt that some would just not take a chance on hiring me because I am blind. Well, she interviewed and hired me but in one of my evaluations explained that I would not be trained to do my job because I would not be able to see the training materials or be able to travel to the training site. Following the evaluation, I quickly found another job because I had realized I would not have a bright future with a company with such interesting ideas about why people should or should not be trained. Lucy From mikefry79 at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 01:39:14 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:39:14 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] GINA Notice of Proposed rule Making In-Reply-To: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1615A7B@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov> References: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1615A7B@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902251739i431fc927yad077e3a6ee743a1@mail.gmail.com> This is neat to know about. The USDA has a site where it's possible to submit comments via email and read all public comments submitted. Here, it looks like EEOC just had a meeting and will make the transcripts avaliable online. Am I missing something here? It doesn't seem like public comment if you've to go to the meeting to make your public comment. On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR) < Bennett.Prows at hhs.gov> wrote: > Some on these lists might be interested in the notice of proposed rule > making from the EEOC concerning the new Genetic Information > Nondiscrimination Act. > > > > /s/ > > > > Bennett Prows > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~EEOC Seeks Public Comment > on Proposed Regulations Implementing Genetic Information > Nondiscrimination Act > > > > Commission Embarks on Historic New Area of Jurisdiction > > > > > > CONTACT: David Grinberg or Justine > > Lisser, (202) 663-4191 > > > > > > TTY: (202) 663-4494 > > > > > > WASHINGTON - Embarking on a historic new area of jurisdiction, the U.S. > Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) today presented a Notice > of Proposed Rule Making implementing employment provisions of the > Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008 (GINA), and urged > public comment. > > > > "The addition of genetic information > > discrimination to the EEOC's mandate is > > historic, and represents the first > > legislative expansion of the EEOC's > > jurisdiction since the Americans with > > Disabilities Act passed in 1990," said Acting EEOC Chairman Stuart J. > Ishimaru. "We welcome the opportunity to implement important provisions > of this landmark legislation, and to expand the promise of equal > opportunity in the workplace for everyone." > > > > Acting EEOC Vice Chair Christine M. Griffin said, "GINA is an important > piece of legislation. As a deliberative body, we want to ensure that > the intent of Congress is properly carried out through our regulations. > > Public comment on this NPRM is a critical part of that process. We look > forward to a vigorous and thoughtful review." > > > > GINA, signed into law in May 2008, prohibits discrimination by health > insurers and employers based on people's genetic information. The EEOC > is charged with issuing regulations by May 21 implementing Title II of > GINA, which prohibits the use of genetic information in employment, > prohibits the intentional acquisition of genetic information about > applicants and employees, and imposes strict confidentiality > requirements. > > > > The EEOC opened a 60-day public comment > > period on the proposed rule-making at a > > Commission meeting today. Also at the > > meeting, a panel of experts hailed GINA for allowing people to advance > their health care without risking their jobs. > > > > "We know that in the past, patients have passed up genetic testing that > could benefit their health, and have gone to great lengths to keep > genetic information secret - even from their own doctors," said Susannah > Baruch, law and policy director of the Pew-supported Genetics and Public > Policy Center at Johns Hopkins University. "With the passage of GINA > and its implementation, we welcome a new era. There are many factors an > individual may consider in deciding whether to take a genetic test, but > the fear of discrimination must not be one of them." > > > > Other panelists at today's meeting included: > > > > > > > > * Karen S. Elliott, attorney with Gregory Kaplan, PLC and member, > Society for Human Resource Management > > > > * Jeremy Gruber, president and executive Director, Council for > Responsible Genetics > > > > * Andrew J. Imparato, president and chief executive officer, American > Association of People with Disabilities > > > > * Rae T. Vann, general counsel, Equal > > Employment Advisory Council > > > > * Christopher J. Kuczynski, assistant > > legal counsel, ADA Policy Division, EEOC > > > > > > The EEOC enforces federal laws prohibiting > > employment discrimination. Further > > information about the EEOC is available on its Web site > (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102476480387&e=001i3Pe907gVLp_Xxz4CRXPwfiLqnC > lEJU11XQgXvIy5E-cOgmB6rff53cOQ60ODmDeWURiQ4lsePWZepEW2z6PYUFP3BEaexbhQQ- > ao_3jDag=). > > > >
# # # > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From heyitslu at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 01:50:40 2009 From: heyitslu at gmail.com (Alex) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:50:40 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Homework Accessibility? Message-ID: I posed these concerns and questions on the Blind Parents' list but thought I would post here as well for additional advice. I am a blind, single mother of an autistic, four-year-old boy currently attending a special education pre-school program at an elementary school. He will enter Kindergarten in the fall. Because the school for which we are zoned does not have a pre-school program, he is currently attending out of zone. I am trying to move into that school zone, but with the housing market being what it is, I am not sure that the move will take place before the beginning of the 2009/2010 school year. the pre-school teacher provides e-mailed notes regarding my son's progress when I ask for them and sends exercises for homework when appropriate. the speech therapist is willing to work with me to make homework accessible; however, we are having some difficulty with coming up with a way to label pictures. There is no Vision rehabilitation Teacher at this school and may not be one in the school system (no one seems to know). My concern is that I will be the one responsible for assisting my son in completing homework assignments. although he is verbal to a degree, he is not able to tell me with any accuracy the events of his day or relate a story. He is reading some but not enough to read a homework assignment. My questions are: Is the school system obligated to make homework assignments accessible for me? If so, under what law? (the pre-school teacher has been thinking of putting my son under 504 to ensure that progress reports, IEP's, and homework will be provided to me in an accessible format. Is this the best option? If not, what is? what type of language needs to be in the IEP to ensure accessibility for me as the primary care giver? This really needs to be tight because the school for which we are zoned is not known as having a great special ed program. The IEP will be written in March. thank you for any advice and reccomendations. Lucy From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Thu Feb 26 02:20:55 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:20:55 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> Message-ID: You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > difference. > > Angie > > On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >>As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >>be eligible for garnishment. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 06:40:00 From angie.matney at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 04:34:27 2009 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:34:27 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] ot SSI payments Message-ID: I don't think this list is the place for a drawn out discussion on this topic, but I'm curious. Are you suggesting that someone who receives SSI shouldn't have the opportunity to go to college? It seems to me that this would perpetuate class differences and severely limit opportunities for people with disabilities. Respectfully, Angie Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments From: "Steve P. Deeley" Date: 02/25/2009 11:21 PM You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > difference. > > Angie > > On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >>As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >>be eligible for garnishment. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 06:40:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From angie.matney at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 04:34:33 2009 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:34:33 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] ot SSI payments Message-ID: Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments From: "Steve P. Deeley" Date: 02/25/2009 11:21 PM You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > difference. > > Angie > > On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >>As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >>be eligible for garnishment. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 06:40:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 05:27:07 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 05:27:07 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] ot SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also jsut because someone is on SSI now doesnt mean they always have been they could have taken out a loan when they were in a much better situation, and the state of the economy has driven them to unemployment > From: angie.matney at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:34:27 -0500 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ot SSI payments > > > I don't think this list is the place for a drawn out discussion on this topic, but I'm curious. Are you suggesting that someone who receives SSI shouldn't have the opportunity to go to college? It seems to me that this would perpetuate class differences and severely limit opportunities for people with disabilities. > > Respectfully, > > Angie > > Sent from my Nokia N82. > > -original message- > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > From: "Steve P. Deeley" > Date: 02/25/2009 11:21 PM > > You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. > After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Angie Matney" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > > someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > > disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > > person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > > difference. > > > > Angie > > > > On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > > >>As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should > >>be eligible for garnishment. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 > 06:40:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®:…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009 From b75205 at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 15:25:59 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:25:59 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Scott: I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those who do not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says my process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the form would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any manual entry of data. If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see what I can do! James Pepper On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California Court. > ************** > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > Disability Rights Advocates > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the Blind > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > Plaintiffs, > > v. > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > Defendant. > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF THE > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, seeks > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law School > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to take > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind law > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal access to > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, advantages > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test preparation > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers that > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and LSAT > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities, > and privileges of lsac.org. > > JURISDICTION > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons Act > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. Civ. > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and California > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates its > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > VENUE > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the acts > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights of > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons in > Alameda County. > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and practice > materials. > > PARTIES > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter "NFB") > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico. > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind persons. > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive agencies of > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on behalf > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to promote > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their efforts > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) removing > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created by > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have long > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, so > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > States, including the state of California, and many of its members would use > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by > the blind. > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation and > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its headquarters in > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to the > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school admissions > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided by > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > FACTS > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. Lsac.org > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive services > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application process, and > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also serves as > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to > ABA-accredited law schools. > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > a.. Register for the LSAT > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > schools > e.. Apply online to law schools > f.. Register for law school forums > g.. Have 24-hour file access > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and the > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits and > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. Goraya, > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently apply to > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org. > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction with > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a refreshable > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind persons > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > products and services contained therein. > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at least > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web Consortium, > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent free > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading software. > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow users > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize the > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online law > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack these > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to the > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on the > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly "tagged." > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions and > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As a > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind > visitor to navigate. > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, available > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than 40 > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer the > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible to > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary hurdles > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared to > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select and > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of the > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. Lsac.org > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access to > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and > facilities of lsac.org. > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the Blind > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. LSAC > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals with > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the general > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other places to > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, is > an > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general public > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal access > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to > blind people in an accessible format. > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and equal > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC and > lsac.org. > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the rights > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or obvious > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this time > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and > duties and act accordingly. > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining and/or > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required by > law; > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs as > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., California > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > Procedure § 1021.5. > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems just > and proper. > > > > DATED: > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > By: > ____________________________ > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 15:34:08 2009 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:34:08 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA References: Message-ID: <00b401c99827$aac9fb00$2c0110ac@notebook> what kind of doctor does he want to become? i don't want a doc to botch a surgery. Bryan Schulz The BEST Solution www.best-acts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:27 PM Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA >From Special Ed Connection Key points: 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to whether accommodation reasonable Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. Jenkins v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, which rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in light of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into court, according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in Austin, Texas. "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," he said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as someone with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the core requirement of the ADA. The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And on that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and rule against Jenkins again. "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how quick you are, is how quickly you process." But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are requesting is reasonable, Martín said. "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able to argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this is not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the case. That's the fundamental analytical shift." Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with qualifying disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." Martín did not go that far in his remarks. "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed . . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light of the new law,'" he said. Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín said. "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as to whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, then that should be rethought altogether." Special Ed Connection® related stories: College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations (Feb. 24) *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act Roundup. Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special education issues for LRP Publications. February 24, 2009 Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 16:25:44 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:25:44 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> Message-ID: <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on a blindness-related mailing list to date. If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university education--say the first person in your single-parent family to finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not granted, you're in trouble. Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion would be in order. I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's current and previous homes, combined. Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. Joseph On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. > After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > >> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow >> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to >> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the >> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a >> difference. >> >> Angie >> >> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >> >>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >>> be eligible for garnishment. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 > 06:40:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 17:43:16 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:43:16 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> In my case, I had an education from Dartmouth before realizing that I would have quite a large outstanding debt from Stafford loans. I didn't really understood what that meant until I hit the real world and started paying bills. It was at about this time that I confirmed my own theory about the uselessness of my education and the rampancy of unemployment, especially for a young blind guy with too much talent and not nearly enough tact. If I, at age 19 or 20, before graduating, had realized the ramifications, I wouldn't have signed the paper stating that I'd pay them back. However, for whatever reason, I didn't realize it, and now I am poorer than ever and have about the same amount of debt as I did 18 years ago upon graduation. I'm not interested in a debate about why this is or whose responsibility for which thing is whose; I just asked a question which could very immediately impact me, if ever the William D. Ford loan people decide to get nasty ... nastier... From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 18:25:10 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:25:10 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> Missed the earlier thread on this but: Had a situation in 98 where I managed to have "cancelled" 70+K of student loans. Vehicle for this was federal code but I cannot remember which one. I remember researching "student loans" and went right to it though. Anyways, the individual was blind and was so when he signed his student loans. However, the federal code stated if such an individual's disability increases (may have used the word "substantially") after signing the promissory note(s) AND they are unable to find "substantial gainful employment," a mere doctor's signature on a form and some threats at suit get your loans "cancelled." The cancelled part is important because it doesn't reference on your credit the loans were not paid back but rather only cancelled and a zero balance. Don't see why your situation might not work with a kind physician's help. Good luck. James Law Office of J. William Weisberg 980 9th Street - 16th Floor Sacramento, California 95814 V: 916.425.1010 F: 916.374.7667 This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark BurningHawk Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:43 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments In my case, I had an education from Dartmouth before realizing that I would have quite a large outstanding debt from Stafford loans. I didn't really understood what that meant until I hit the real world and started paying bills. It was at about this time that I confirmed my own theory about the uselessness of my education and the rampancy of unemployment, especially for a young blind guy with too much talent and not nearly enough tact. If I, at age 19 or 20, before graduating, had realized the ramifications, I wouldn't have signed the paper stating that I'd pay them back. However, for whatever reason, I didn't realize it, and now I am poorer than ever and have about the same amount of debt as I did 18 years ago upon graduation. I'm not interested in a debate about why this is or whose responsibility for which thing is whose; I just asked a question which could very immediately impact me, if ever the William D. Ford loan people decide to get nasty ... nastier... _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 0sbcglobal.net From pebreeze at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 18:57:55 2009 From: pebreeze at gmail.com (Philip Breeze) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:57:55 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA In-Reply-To: <00b401c99827$aac9fb00$2c0110ac@notebook> References: <00b401c99827$aac9fb00$2c0110ac@notebook> Message-ID: <88afe4410902261057p10a67b5ds99083274dbb74c09@mail.gmail.com> Don't worry Bryan, there are enough sighted doctors that can botch your surgery. Open your yellow pages to the physician reference, there you will find many doctors that are not surgeons that could easily perform their jobs without sight. A very small percentage of doctors are surgeons. Go see a psychiatrist and have him close his eyes, I bet he can still analyze you. Many people in the past and still to this day think that a person needs sight to program computers and develop web pages. On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Bryan Schulz wrote: > what kind of doctor does he want to become? > i don't want a doc to botch a surgery. > > Bryan Schulz > The BEST Solution > www.best-acts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" < > Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:27 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case > in light of ADAAA > > > From Special Ed Connection >> > > Key points: > > 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA > Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test > Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to whether > accommodation reasonable > Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA > > On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra > time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. Jenkins > v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). > > The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, > not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been > granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. > > Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of > interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, which > rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in light > of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. > National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). > > Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about > accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into court, > according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in > Austin, Texas. > > "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," he > said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as someone > with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the > core requirement of the ADA. > > The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation > for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And on > that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. > > After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able > to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and rule > against Jenkins again. > > "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how > quick you are, is how quickly you process." > > But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its > purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a > disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are > requesting is reasonable, Martín said. > > "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able to > argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable > accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this is > not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the case. > That's the fundamental analytical shift." > > Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, > declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will > continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with qualifying > disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. > > The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules > for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, > public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. > > The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' > ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. > "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." > > Martín did not go that far in his remarks. > > "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed . > . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light of > the new law,'" he said. > > Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín said. > "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as to > whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, then > that should be rethought altogether." > > Special Ed Connection® related stories: > > College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations > (Feb. 24) > *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act > Roundup. > > Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special > education issues for LRP Publications. > > February 24, 2009 > > Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 18:58:20 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:58:20 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: I myself have been very lucky, in Texas the state waives tuitiona nd fees to state colleges, but now that I am trying to get into law school it seems they are not going to do it for graduate school/law school like they did for my Bachelors even though there is nothing in the legislation about what level of post secondary education they are supposed to cover, simply that they are supposed to cover it for blind individuals. If I can not get them to waive my tution and fees I am going to ahve no other choice but tio take out loans after I apply for every scholarship possible taht is. > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:25:44 -0800 > From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on > a blindness-related mailing list to date. > > If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university > education--say the first person in your single-parent family to > finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university > is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. > > If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find > work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial > irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an > insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should > have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to > pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan > payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not > granted, you're in trouble. > > Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have > descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding > employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion > would be in order. > > I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another > $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted > a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's > current and previous homes, combined. > > Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would > be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. > > Joseph > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > > unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. > > After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > > Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > > Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > > >> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > >> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > >> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > >> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > >> difference. > >> > >> Angie > >> > >> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> > >>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should > >>> be eligible for garnishment. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 > > 06:40:00 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 19:03:19 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:03:19 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in the time they are allow. 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I finished everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®:…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009 From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 20:40:36 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:40:36 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> Message-ID: <2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> Problems with this: I was born blind, and thus was blind at the time of taking out the loans, going through college, etc. I am, however, losing my hearing, and have incurred such hearing loss that my ability to work is severely impacted. Upon obtaining the forms to cancel my loan, I discovered that I not only had to fill out this form, but in three years, I will be assessed again to see whether in fact I have made substantial monetary gain in that time. Essentially, I have to stay out of work for three years, and I am hoping to find work *SOMEWHERE*. Also, since I now no longer have health insurance, I can't afford the doctor visit to get the form signed that states that I have a disability that substantially impairs my ability to work... From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 20:41:58 2009 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:41:58 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcase in light of ADAAA References: <00b401c99827$aac9fb00$2c0110ac@notebook> <88afe4410902261057p10a67b5ds99083274dbb74c09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <022601c99852$ad1933a0$2c0110ac@notebook> no, you don't get the point of my question. if he is in psych, i don't care but if he's wanting to do something involved with internal procedures, i would demand another doc. Bryan Schulz The BEST Solution www.best-acts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Breeze" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcase in light of ADAAA Don't worry Bryan, there are enough sighted doctors that can botch your surgery. Open your yellow pages to the physician reference, there you will find many doctors that are not surgeons that could easily perform their jobs without sight. A very small percentage of doctors are surgeons. Go see a psychiatrist and have him close his eyes, I bet he can still analyze you. Many people in the past and still to this day think that a person needs sight to program computers and develop web pages. On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Bryan Schulz wrote: > what kind of doctor does he want to become? > i don't want a doc to botch a surgery. > > Bryan Schulz > The BEST Solution > www.best-acts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" < > Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:27 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case > in light of ADAAA > > > From Special Ed Connection >> > > Key points: > > 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA > Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test > Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to > whether > accommodation reasonable > Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA > > On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra > time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. > Jenkins > v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). > > The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, > not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been > granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. > > Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of > interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, > which > rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in > light > of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. > National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). > > Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about > accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into > court, > according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in > Austin, Texas. > > "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," > he > said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as > someone > with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the > core requirement of the ADA. > > The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation > for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And > on > that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. > > After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able > to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and > rule > against Jenkins again. > > "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how > quick you are, is how quickly you process." > > But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its > purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a > disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are > requesting is reasonable, Martín said. > > "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able > to > argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable > accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this > is > not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the > case. > That's the fundamental analytical shift." > > Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, > declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will > continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with > qualifying > disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. > > The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules > for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, > public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. > > The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' > ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. > "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." > > Martín did not go that far in his remarks. > > "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed > . > . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light > of > the new law,'" he said. > > Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín > said. > "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as > to > whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, > then > that should be rethought altogether." > > Special Ed Connection® related stories: > > College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations > (Feb. 24) > *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act > Roundup. > > Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special > education issues for LRP Publications. > > February 24, 2009 > > Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Thu Feb 26 20:49:55 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:49:55 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you get a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on > a blindness-related mailing list to date. > > If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university > education--say the first person in your single-parent family to > finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university > is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. > > If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find > work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial > irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an > insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should > have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to > pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan > payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not > granted, you're in trouble. > > Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have > descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding > employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion > would be in order. > > I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another > $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted > a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's > current and previous homes, combined. > > Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would > be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. > > Joseph > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >> You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are >> unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. >> After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. >> Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM >> Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments >> >> >>> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow >>> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to >>> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the >>> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a >>> difference. >>> >>> Angie >>> >>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >>> >>>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >>>> be eligible for garnishment. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 >> 06:40:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 07:03:00 From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 21:42:03 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:42:03 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] doctors In-Reply-To: <88afe4410902261057p10a67b5ds99083274dbb74c09@mail.gmail.com> References: <00b401c99827$aac9fb00$2c0110ac@notebook> <88afe4410902261057p10a67b5ds99083274dbb74c09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: speaking of medical and mistakes. I am so tired of dealing with Medicaid and the companies they contract with to provide insurance. Picked my suplimental insurance plan from the oens they offered me because the booklet the company provided said my specialists where in their plan. Tried to go see the PCP they assigned me only to find out they were a geriatrics specialist, something I am about 30 years away form needing. Then i got a PCP that was appropriate, went to get referrals,, only to be told me specialists WERENT in the insurance network and never had been. Called Medicaid to change plans and was told it would take up to 45 days to process the change. Got the change made to a provider netowrk I foun out my specialists ARE in, but Medicaid assigned mea PCP that isnt even a doctor its a pediatric nurse practitioner. does ANYONE know how to do their job right? arg. Now im gonna have to call and delay my apointment at my specialist next week because in the three months since i scheduled the appointment I ahvent been able to straighten all this junk out. So I am going to be putting off a vital surgery yet again taht I ahve been trying to get for over a year. > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:57:55 -0600 > From: pebreeze at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA > > Don't worry Bryan, there are enough sighted doctors that can botch your > surgery. Open your yellow pages to the physician reference, there you will > find many doctors that are not surgeons that could easily perform their jobs > without sight. A very small percentage of doctors are surgeons. Go see a > psychiatrist and have him close his eyes, I bet he can still analyze you. > Many people in the past and still to this day think that a person needs > sight to program computers and develop web pages. > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Bryan Schulz wrote: > > > what kind of doctor does he want to become? > > i don't want a doc to botch a surgery. > > > > Bryan Schulz > > The BEST Solution > > www.best-acts.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" < > > Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:27 PM > > Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case > > in light of ADAAA > > > > > > From Special Ed Connection > >> > > > > Key points: > > > > 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA > > Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test > > Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to whether > > accommodation reasonable > > Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA > > > > On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra > > time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. Jenkins > > v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). > > > > The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, > > not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been > > granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. > > > > Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of > > interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, which > > rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in light > > of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. > > National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). > > > > Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about > > accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into court, > > according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in > > Austin, Texas. > > > > "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," he > > said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as someone > > with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the > > core requirement of the ADA. > > > > The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation > > for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And on > > that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. > > > > After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able > > to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and rule > > against Jenkins again. > > > > "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how > > quick you are, is how quickly you process." > > > > But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its > > purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a > > disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are > > requesting is reasonable, Martín said. > > > > "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able to > > argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable > > accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this is > > not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the case. > > That's the fundamental analytical shift." > > > > Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, > > declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will > > continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with qualifying > > disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. > > > > The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules > > for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, > > public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. > > > > The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' > > ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. > > "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." > > > > Martín did not go that far in his remarks. > > > > "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed . > > . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light of > > the new law,'" he said. > > > > Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín said. > > "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as to > > whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, then > > that should be rethought altogether." > > > > Special Ed Connection® related stories: > > > > College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations > > (Feb. 24) > > *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act > > Roundup. > > > > Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special > > education issues for LRP Publications. > > > > February 24, 2009 > > > > Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009 From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 21:47:34 2009 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:47:34 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <02bd01c9985b$d5da28e0$2c0110ac@notebook> hi, that's how it should be. it seems blind people are always looking for a loop hole. we want special schedule appointments for fed/state jobs but the necessary education should be on somebody elses dime. Bryan Schulz The BEST Solution www.best-acts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "tim and vickie shaw" To: Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments I myself have been very lucky, in Texas the state waives tuitiona nd fees to state colleges, but now that I am trying to get into law school it seems they are not going to do it for graduate school/law school like they did for my Bachelors even though there is nothing in the legislation about what level of post secondary education they are supposed to cover, simply that they are supposed to cover it for blind individuals. If I can not get them to waive my tution and fees I am going to ahve no other choice but tio take out loans after I apply for every scholarship possible taht is. > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:25:44 -0800 > From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on > a blindness-related mailing list to date. > > If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university > education--say the first person in your single-parent family to > finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university > is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. > > If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find > work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial > irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an > insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should > have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to > pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan > payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not > granted, you're in trouble. > > Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have > descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding > employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion > would be in order. > > I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another > $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted > a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's > current and previous homes, combined. > > Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would > be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. > > Joseph > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > > unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so > > much. > > After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > > Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > > Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > > >> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > >> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > >> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > >> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > >> difference. > >> > >> Angie > >> > >> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> > >>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should > >>> be eligible for garnishment. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: > > 02/25/09 > > 06:40:00 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ ItÂ’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 21:51:42 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:51:42 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> <2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: you dont have a specialist or doctor youve been to in the past thaat woudl fill otu the papers for you? my cornea specialist fills out such forms for me without me having to go in for a visit./ > From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:40:36 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > Problems with this: I was born blind, and thus was blind at the time > of taking out the loans, going through college, etc. I am, however, > losing my hearing, and have incurred such hearing loss that my ability > to work is severely impacted. Upon obtaining the forms to cancel my > loan, I discovered that I not only had to fill out this form, but in > three years, I will be assessed again to see whether in fact I have > made substantial monetary gain in that time. Essentially, I have to > stay out of work for three years, and I am hoping to find work > *SOMEWHERE*. Also, since I now no longer have health insurance, I > can't afford the doctor visit to get the form signed that states that > I have a disability that substantially impairs my ability to work... > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 26 22:04:12 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:04:12 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> <2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <2907B3FE-31F0-42A9-A5C2-6C3A33D1FA26@sbcglobal.net> The only place around here that accepts MediCal, California's version of Medicaid, was a health center / clinic. Since I no longer receive or qualify for MediCal, and since I didn't have an individual primary care physician at this clinic, they won't just see me to sign the paper based on past records. I don't have a personal physician per se. From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 22:17:32 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:17:32 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: ofcourse you should, but i think the fact that it is harder for a blind person to find an employer willing to hire them sould be taken into account when deffering payment until a job is found as they WILL defer payment for a year for normal students, it could take much longer than a year for a person with a disability that cant find someone willign to "take a chance" on them to find a job. I have been looking for work for almost two years now. I did have a job after cololege, and i dotn have student loans, but jsut saying. > From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:49:55 -0500 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you get > a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "T. Joseph Carter" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:25 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on > > a blindness-related mailing list to date. > > > > If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university > > education--say the first person in your single-parent family to > > finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university > > is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. > > > > If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find > > work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial > > irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an > > insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should > > have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to > > pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan > > payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not > > granted, you're in trouble. > > > > Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have > > descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding > > employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion > > would be in order. > > > > I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another > > $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted > > a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's > > current and previous homes, combined. > > > > Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would > > be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. > > > > Joseph > > > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > >> unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. > >> After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > >> Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > >> Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > >> > >> > >>> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > >>> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > >>> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > >>> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > >>> difference. > >>> > >>> Angie > >>> > >>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >>> > >>>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should > >>>> be eligible for garnishment. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> blindlaw: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 > >> 06:40:00 > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 > 07:03:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 From lmilholland at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 22:23:18 2009 From: lmilholland at hotmail.com (Locke Milholland) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:23:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: "Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans." absolutely True, with some exceptions. 15 chapters of Title 11, aka the Bankruptcy code for starters. Locke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you > get a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: >>> 02/25/09 >>> 06:40:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 > 07:03:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com > From timandvickie at hotmail.com Thu Feb 26 23:13:27 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:13:27 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <02bd01c9985b$d5da28e0$2c0110ac@notebook> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <02bd01c9985b$d5da28e0$2c0110ac@notebook> Message-ID: its not a loop hole its a program established to try and get blind people off of SSI, mediaid, est. > From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:47:34 -0600 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > hi, > > that's how it should be. > it seems blind people are always looking for a loop hole. > we want special schedule appointments for fed/state jobs but the necessary > education should be on somebody elses dime. > > Bryan Schulz > The BEST Solution > www.best-acts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tim and vickie shaw" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:58 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > I myself have been very lucky, in Texas the state waives tuitiona nd fees to > state colleges, but now that I am trying to get into law school it seems > they are not going to do it for graduate school/law school like they did for > my Bachelors even though there is nothing in the legislation about what > level of post secondary education they are supposed to cover, simply that > they are supposed to cover it for blind individuals. If I can not get them > to waive my tution and fees I am going to ahve no other choice but tio take > out loans after I apply for every scholarship possible taht is. > > > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:25:44 -0800 > > From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on > > a blindness-related mailing list to date. > > > > If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university > > education--say the first person in your single-parent family to > > finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university > > is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. > > > > If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find > > work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial > > irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an > > insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should > > have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to > > pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan > > payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not > > granted, you're in trouble. > > > > Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have > > descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding > > employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion > > would be in order. > > > > I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another > > $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted > > a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's > > current and previous homes, combined. > > > > Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would > > be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. > > > > Joseph > > > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > > You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > > > unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so > > > much. > > > After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > > > Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > > > Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > > > > > >> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > > >> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > > >> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > > >> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > > >> difference. > > >> > > >> Angie > > >> > > >> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > >> > > >>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should > > >>> be eligible for garnishment. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> blindlaw mailing list > > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >> blindlaw: > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: > > > 02/25/09 > > > 06:40:00 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_022009 From angie at mpmail.net Thu Feb 26 23:19:25 2009 From: angie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:19:25 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Deferring a loan for an SSI recipient until that person has a job is not a "pass card." BTW, people other than blind people get SSI. SSI is not something that can be garnished because its purpose is to help people meet their basic necessities so that they are not starving out in the street. On the other hand, SSDI is like an insurance payment (that's actually what the "I" stands for in SSDI, but not in SSI). Someone could win the lottery and still continue to receive their SSDI payments. That is why SSDI can be garnished. On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:49:55 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you get >a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? >----- Original Message ----- From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 00:32:53 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:32:53 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net><4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> Message-ID: This process including the relevant code sections was part of a thread on this topic about 6 months ago on this list. Unfortunately, that part of it is stored on another computer as I was in the process of changing computers and that computer is now at a satellite office I use from time to time and not so accessible. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments Missed the earlier thread on this but: Had a situation in 98 where I managed to have "cancelled" 70+K of student loans. Vehicle for this was federal code but I cannot remember which one. I remember researching "student loans" and went right to it though. Anyways, the individual was blind and was so when he signed his student loans. However, the federal code stated if such an individual's disability increases (may have used the word "substantially") after signing the promissory note(s) AND they are unable to find "substantial gainful employment," a mere doctor's signature on a form and some threats at suit get your loans "cancelled." The cancelled part is important because it doesn't reference on your credit the loans were not paid back but rather only cancelled and a zero balance. Don't see why your situation might not work with a kind physician's help. Good luck. James Law Office of J. William Weisberg 980 9th Street - 16th Floor Sacramento, California 95814 V: 916.425.1010 F: 916.374.7667 This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark BurningHawk Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:43 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments In my case, I had an education from Dartmouth before realizing that I would have quite a large outstanding debt from Stafford loans. I didn't really understood what that meant until I hit the real world and started paying bills. It was at about this time that I confirmed my own theory about the uselessness of my education and the rampancy of unemployment, especially for a young blind guy with too much talent and not nearly enough tact. If I, at age 19 or 20, before graduating, had realized the ramifications, I wouldn't have signed the paper stating that I'd pay them back. However, for whatever reason, I didn't realize it, and now I am poorer than ever and have about the same amount of debt as I did 18 years ago upon graduation. I'm not interested in a debate about why this is or whose responsibility for which thing is whose; I just asked a question which could very immediately impact me, if ever the William D. Ford loan people decide to get nasty ... nastier... _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 0sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Fri Feb 27 00:40:12 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:40:12 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <0KFP00DQU7KWA3N0@mta2.manage.insightcom.com> References: <0KFP00DQU7KWA3N0@mta2.manage.insightcom.com> Message-ID: <612349CCCCB647938BAF65610C83BB65@StevePC> What if they never work?? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Deferring a loan for an SSI recipient until that person has a job is not a > "pass card." BTW, people other than blind people get SSI. SSI is not > something that can be garnished because its purpose is to help people meet > their basic necessities so that > they are not starving out in the street. On the other hand, SSDI is like > an insurance payment (that's actually what the "I" stands for in SSDI, but > not in SSI). Someone could win the lottery and still continue to receive > their SSDI payments. That is why > SSDI can be garnished. > > > > On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:49:55 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >>Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you >>get >>a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? >>----- Original Message ----- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1974 - Release Date: 02/26/09 14:51:00 From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Fri Feb 27 00:41:13 2009 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:41:13 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <02bd01c9985b$d5da28e0$2c0110ac@notebook> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <02bd01c9985b$d5da28e0$2c0110ac@notebook> Message-ID: <8C3255CA7C77452D977FA9D2E7C74622@StevePC> I agree Brian. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments hi, that's how it should be. it seems blind people are always looking for a loop hole. we want special schedule appointments for fed/state jobs but the necessary education should be on somebody elses dime. Bryan Schulz The BEST Solution www.best-acts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "tim and vickie shaw" To: Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments I myself have been very lucky, in Texas the state waives tuitiona nd fees to state colleges, but now that I am trying to get into law school it seems they are not going to do it for graduate school/law school like they did for my Bachelors even though there is nothing in the legislation about what level of post secondary education they are supposed to cover, simply that they are supposed to cover it for blind individuals. If I can not get them to waive my tution and fees I am going to ahve no other choice but tio take out loans after I apply for every scholarship possible taht is. > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:25:44 -0800 > From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on > a blindness-related mailing list to date. > > If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university > education--say the first person in your single-parent family to > finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university > is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. > > If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find > work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial > irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an > insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should > have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to > pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan > payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not > granted, you're in trouble. > > Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have > descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding > employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion > would be in order. > > I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another > $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted > a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's > current and previous homes, combined. > > Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would > be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. > > Joseph > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are > > unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so > > much. > > After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. > > Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM > > Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > > >> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow > >> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to > >> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the > >> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a > >> difference. > >> > >> Angie > >> > >> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> > >>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should > >>> be eligible for garnishment. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: > > 02/25/09 > > 06:40:00 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ ItÂ’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1974 - Release Date: 02/26/09 14:51:00 From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 01:14:59 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:14:59 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net><4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net><317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> <2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: you can always get the form signed by a doctor that treated or evaluated you in the past or go to a county medical facility for such an evaluation. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Problems with this: I was born blind, and thus was blind at the time of > taking out the loans, going through college, etc. I am, however, losing > my hearing, and have incurred such hearing loss that my ability to work > is severely impacted. Upon obtaining the forms to cancel my loan, I > discovered that I not only had to fill out this form, but in three years, > I will be assessed again to see whether in fact I have made substantial > monetary gain in that time. Essentially, I have to stay out of work for > three years, and I am hoping to find work *SOMEWHERE*. Also, since I now > no longer have health insurance, I can't afford the doctor visit to get > the form signed that states that I have a disability that substantially > impairs my ability to work... > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 01:19:14 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:19:14 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <2907B3FE-31F0-42A9-A5C2-6C3A33D1FA26@sbcglobal.net> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net><4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net><317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg><2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> <2907B3FE-31F0-42A9-A5C2-6C3A33D1FA26@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Contact me off list as I may have some ideas if I know where you are in California. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > The only place around here that accepts MediCal, California's version of > Medicaid, was a health center / clinic. Since I no longer receive or > qualify for MediCal, and since I didn't have an individual primary care > physician at this clinic, they won't just see me to sign the paper based > on past records. I don't have a personal physician per se. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 01:26:34 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:26:34 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcasein light of ADAAA In-Reply-To: <022601c99852$ad1933a0$2c0110ac@notebook> References: <00b401c99827$aac9fb00$2c0110ac@notebook><88afe4410902261057p10a67b5ds99083274dbb74c09@mail.gmail.com> <022601c99852$ad1933a0$2c0110ac@notebook> Message-ID: <61D5D43034C2477CB96DBB287F9647EB@spike> If I recall there was nothing in this court ruling that even stated that the party had a visual impairment. I don't recall the decision stating what the nature of the disability was. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcasein light of ADAAA no, you don't get the point of my question. if he is in psych, i don't care but if he's wanting to do something involved with internal procedures, i would demand another doc. Bryan Schulz The BEST Solution www.best-acts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Breeze" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcase in light of ADAAA Don't worry Bryan, there are enough sighted doctors that can botch your surgery. Open your yellow pages to the physician reference, there you will find many doctors that are not surgeons that could easily perform their jobs without sight. A very small percentage of doctors are surgeons. Go see a psychiatrist and have him close his eyes, I bet he can still analyze you. Many people in the past and still to this day think that a person needs sight to program computers and develop web pages. On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Bryan Schulz wrote: > what kind of doctor does he want to become? > i don't want a doc to botch a surgery. > > Bryan Schulz > The BEST Solution > www.best-acts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" < > Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:27 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case > in light of ADAAA > > > From Special Ed Connection >> > > Key points: > > 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA > Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test > Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to > whether > accommodation reasonable > Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA > > On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra > time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. > Jenkins > v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). > > The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, > not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been > granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. > > Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of > interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, > which > rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in > light > of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. > National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). > > Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about > accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into > court, > according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in > Austin, Texas. > > "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," > he > said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as > someone > with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the > core requirement of the ADA. > > The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation > for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And > on > that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. > > After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able > to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and > rule > against Jenkins again. > > "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how > quick you are, is how quickly you process." > > But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its > purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a > disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are > requesting is reasonable, Martín said. > > "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able > to > argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable > accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this > is > not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the > case. > That's the fundamental analytical shift." > > Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, > declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will > continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with > qualifying > disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. > > The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules > for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, > public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. > > The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' > ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. > "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." > > Martín did not go that far in his remarks. > > "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed > . > . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light > of > the new law,'" he said. > > Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín > said. > "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as > to > whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, > then > that should be rethought altogether." > > Special Ed Connection® related stories: > > College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations > (Feb. 24) > *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act > Roundup. > > Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special > education issues for LRP Publications. > > February 24, 2009 > > Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 01:41:47 2009 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:41:47 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <701D3CB569034C898E539A9693401ED8@spike> However, under the new bankruptcy laws student loans are not necessarily discharged under bankruptcy. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Locke Milholland" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > "Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans." > > absolutely True, with some exceptions. > 15 chapters of Title 11, aka the Bankruptcy code for starters. > > Locke > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve P. Deeley" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 3:49 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > >> Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you >> get a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to >> convey? > your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: >>>> 02/25/09 >>>> 06:40:00 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 >> 07:03:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From bspiry at comcast.net Fri Feb 27 01:47:50 2009 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000b01c9987d$66802d60$33808820$@net> Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare for the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be appreciated. In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for additional time? I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. Bill Spiry 541-510-2623 Springfield Oregon -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in the time they are allow. 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I finished everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. _________________________________________________________________ Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore _022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From bspiry at comcast.net Fri Feb 27 01:52:45 2009 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:52:45 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> James, I'd be very interested in what you are doing with this. I'll be taking the LSAT in June, and I've found the LSAC sampel LSAT test to be miserably inaccessible with JAWS, blended columns, ordering and tagging is a mess, just about totally impossible to read it with any comprehensible clarity. If you've found a way to sort or rearrange the PDF in some way to make it useable, I'd sure appreciate getting a piece of that. I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. Bill Spiry 541-510-2623 Springfield Oregon -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Pepper Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:26 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint Scott: I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those who do not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says my process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the form would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any manual entry of data. If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see what I can do! James Pepper On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California Court. > ************** > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > Disability Rights Advocates > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the Blind > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > Plaintiffs, > > v. > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > Defendant. > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF THE > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, seeks > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law School > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to take > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind law > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal access to > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, advantages > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test preparation > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers that > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and LSAT > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities, > and privileges of lsac.org. > > JURISDICTION > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons Act > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. Civ. > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and California > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates its > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > VENUE > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the acts > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights of > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons in > Alameda County. > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and practice > materials. > > PARTIES > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter "NFB") > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico. > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind persons. > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive agencies of > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on behalf > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to promote > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their efforts > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) removing > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created by > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have long > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, so > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > States, including the state of California, and many of its members would use > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by > the blind. > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation and > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its headquarters in > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to the > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school admissions > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided by > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > FACTS > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. Lsac.org > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive services > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application process, and > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also serves as > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to > ABA-accredited law schools. > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > a.. Register for the LSAT > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > schools > e.. Apply online to law schools > f.. Register for law school forums > g.. Have 24-hour file access > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and the > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits and > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. Goraya, > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently apply to > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org. > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction with > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a refreshable > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind persons > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > products and services contained therein. > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at least > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web Consortium, > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent free > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading software. > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow users > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize the > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online law > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack these > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to the > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on the > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly "tagged." > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions and > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As a > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind > visitor to navigate. > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, available > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than 40 > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer the > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible to > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary hurdles > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared to > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select and > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of the > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions of > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. Lsac.org > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access to > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and > facilities of lsac.org. > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the Blind > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. LSAC > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals with > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the general > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other places to > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, is > an > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general public > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal access > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to > blind people in an accessible format. > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and equal > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC and > lsac.org. > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the rights > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or obvious > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available to > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > incorporated by reference. > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this time > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and > duties and act accordingly. > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining and/or > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required by > law; > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs as > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., California > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > Procedure § 1021.5. > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems just > and proper. > > > > DATED: > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > By: > ____________________________ > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From timandvickie at hotmail.com Fri Feb 27 02:28:45 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:28:45 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: <000b01c9987d$66802d60$33808820$@net> References: <000b01c9987d$66802d60$33808820$@net> Message-ID: i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > From: bspiry at comcast.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare for > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > appreciated. > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > additional time? > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > Bill Spiry > 541-510-2623 > Springfield Oregon > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in the > time they are allow. > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I finished > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®:…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009 From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 03:18:07 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:18:07 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com> <20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <20090227031807.GB12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> What part of "I said compassion, not forgiveness of debt" is unclear to you? We're talking about garnishment of subsistence living funds which are NOT ELIGIBLE FOR GARNISHMENT because they represent the absolute minimum amount needed to survive. Do blind people deserve a pass? No. Do people on SSI "deserve" a pass? Again, no. However, SSI exists as a safety net--making it unsafe is counter-productive. Meaningful Social Security reform would make that safety net contingent upon good faith effort to either seek employment or make yourself more employable, but that's not the same as saying that we'll leave a person without the ability to buy food and pay rent. Buying iPods and flat screen TVs, on the other hand... But I don't know many people on SSI who regularly purchase such things, either. Joseph On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 03:49:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you > get a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to > convey? > ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:25 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > >> That is about the most class-warfare-inducing statement I've read on >> a blindness-related mailing list to date. >> >> If you are not of reasonable financial means to pay for a university >> education--say the first person in your single-parent family to >> finish high school, an undergraduate education at a public university >> is going to rack up about $40,000 in student loans. >> >> If, upon completion of that undergraduate education, you cannot find >> work because there simply are no jobs as a result of financial >> irresponsibility on the part of people for whom $40,000 remains an >> insignificant figure, you are left with a debt you cannot--but should >> have been able to--repay. If you're depending on Social Security to >> pay the rent, you're going to be in a world of hurt when your loan >> payments become due. If you cannot pay and your petitions are not >> granted, you're in trouble. >> >> Given the cost of law school and that several on this list have >> descried the difficulty and frustration associated with finding >> employment after passing the bar, one might think a little compassion >> would be in order. >> >> I said compassion, not forgiveness of the debt. If I rack up another >> $150,000 in loans in law school (as is likely), I have still accepted >> a huge financial responsibility--one worth more than my family's >> current and previous homes, combined. >> >> Of course, I am confident that I will be employed, otherwise I would >> be much more hesitant to accept such a responsibility. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:20:55PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >>> You know what, individuals should not be taking out loans that they are >>> unable to repay nor, should individuals be leveraging themselves so much. >>> After all, that is what has our economy in its present condition. >>> Individuals on SSI should not be borrowing money in the first place. >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:58 PM >>> Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments >>> >>> >>>> Well, since SSI is really only designed to allow >>>> someone to subsist on the least possible amount of cash, I'd have to >>>> disagree with you. SSDI payments, on the other hand, are related to the >>>> person's employment status, not their financial need. There's a >>>> difference. >>>> >>>> Angie >>>> >>>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:22 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >>>> >>>>> As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments should >>>>> be eligible for garnishment. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 >>> 06:40:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 > 07:03:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 03:35:16 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:35:16 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <612349CCCCB647938BAF65610C83BB65@StevePC> References: <0KFP00DQU7KWA3N0@mta2.manage.insightcom.com> <612349CCCCB647938BAF65610C83BB65@StevePC> Message-ID: <20090227033516.GC12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> And what if the recipient of the loan has no family and gets hit by a bus tomorrow? What do you garnish then? If they don't get a job, then they don't. If SSI allows them to sit on SSI collecting subsistence-level money without ever contributing anything to society, that can and should be fixed--but not by allowing garnishment of SSI. Joseph On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 07:40:12PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > What if they never work?? > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:19 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > >> Deferring a loan for an SSI recipient until that person has a job is >> not a "pass card." BTW, people other than blind people get SSI. SSI is >> not something that can be garnished because its purpose is to help >> people meet their basic necessities so that >> they are not starving out in the street. On the other hand, SSDI is >> like an insurance payment (that's actually what the "I" stands for in >> SSDI, but not in SSI). Someone could win the lottery and still continue >> to receive their SSDI payments. That is why >> SSDI can be garnished. >> >> >> >> On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:49:55 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: >> >>> Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do >>> you get >>> a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1974 - Release Date: 02/26/09 > 14:51:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 04:06:42 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:06:42 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> References: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> Message-ID: <20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> James, That's certainly a legal approach that you could validly take--and I do not think the provisions that allow it should be repealed because they serve a valid and legitimate purpose for those who genuinely become disabled and are consequently unable to repay their student loans. That said--and I do not know the circumstances affecting your client--I think it is not a moral thing for someone who was blind when they began college to attempt to use blindness in this way under almost any circumstances I can imagine. I cannot imagine that I ever would take that road myself. Joseph On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:25:10AM -0800, James Weisberg wrote: >Missed the earlier thread on this but: > >Had a situation in 98 where I managed to have "cancelled" 70+K of student >loans. Vehicle for this was federal code but I cannot remember which one. >I remember researching "student loans" and went right to it though. >Anyways, the individual was blind and was so when he signed his student >loans. However, the federal code stated if such an individual's disability >increases (may have used the word "substantially") after signing the >promissory note(s) AND they are unable to find "substantial gainful >employment," a mere doctor's signature on a form and some threats at suit >get your loans "cancelled." The cancelled part is important because it >doesn't reference on your credit the loans were not paid back but rather >only cancelled and a zero balance. Don't see why your situation might not >work with a kind physician's help. Good luck. > >James > >Law Office of J. William Weisberg >980 9th Street - 16th Floor >Sacramento, California 95814 >V: 916.425.1010 >F: 916.374.7667 > > > >This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are >not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain >this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the >sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This >message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications >Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Mark BurningHawk >Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:43 AM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > >In my case, I had an education from Dartmouth before realizing that I >would have quite a large outstanding debt from Stafford loans. I >didn't really understood what that meant until I hit the real world >and started paying bills. It was at about this time that I confirmed >my own theory about the uselessness of my education and the rampancy >of unemployment, especially for a young blind guy with too much talent >and not nearly enough tact. If I, at age 19 or 20, before graduating, >had realized the ramifications, I wouldn't have signed the paper >stating that I'd pay them back. However, for whatever reason, I >didn't realize it, and now I am poorer than ever and have about the >same amount of debt as I did 18 years ago upon graduation. I'm not >interested in a debate about why this is or whose responsibility for >which thing is whose; I just asked a question which could very >immediately impact me, if ever the William D. Ford loan people decide >to get nasty ... nastier... > > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 >0sbcglobal.net > > >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From timandvickie at hotmail.com Fri Feb 27 04:22:29 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 04:22:29 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <20090227033516.GC12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <0KFP00DQU7KWA3N0@mta2.manage.insightcom.com> <612349CCCCB647938BAF65610C83BB65@StevePC> <20090227033516.GC12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: honestly i dont know how people live off SSI unless they flat out lie to the SSA the most i have EVER gotten from them is 367 a month I ahve never managed to get them to pay the full amount allowed. At the moment I only get 116 a month and I ahve been fighting them for 56 months tryin gto ge tthrough the red tape to get them to pay me the higher amoutn i sould be getting > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:35:16 -0800 > From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > And what if the recipient of the loan has no family and gets hit by a > bus tomorrow? What do you garnish then? > > If they don't get a job, then they don't. If SSI allows them to sit > on SSI collecting subsistence-level money without ever contributing > anything to society, that can and should be fixed--but not by > allowing garnishment of SSI. > > Joseph > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 07:40:12PM -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > > What if they never work?? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angie Matney" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:19 PM > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > > >> Deferring a loan for an SSI recipient until that person has a job is > >> not a "pass card." BTW, people other than blind people get SSI. SSI is > >> not something that can be garnished because its purpose is to help > >> people meet their basic necessities so that > >> they are not starving out in the street. On the other hand, SSDI is > >> like an insurance payment (that's actually what the "I" stands for in > >> SSDI, but not in SSI). Someone could win the lottery and still continue > >> to receive their SSDI payments. That is why > >> SSDI can be garnished. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:49:55 -0500, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> > >>> Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do > >>> you get > >>> a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to convey? > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1974 - Release Date: 02/26/09 > > 14:51:00 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 From bspiry at comcast.net Fri Feb 27 05:47:31 2009 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:47:31 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: References: <000b01c9987d$66802d60$33808820$@net> Message-ID: <001601c9989e$e247c9a0$a6d75ce0$@net> Were you able to find some practice tests that were readable using a screen reader like JAWS? The practice test on the LSAC site are crummy for accessibility. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:29 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > From: bspiry at comcast.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare for > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > appreciated. > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > additional time? > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > Bill Spiry > 541-510-2623 > Springfield Oregon > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in the > time they are allow. > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I finished > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot mail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore _022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From timandvickie at hotmail.com Fri Feb 27 06:18:02 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 06:18:02 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: <001601c9989e$e247c9a0$a6d75ce0$@net> References: <000b01c9987d$66802d60$33808820$@net> <001601c9989e$e247c9a0$a6d75ce0$@net> Message-ID: i dont use a screen reader, just magnifier > From: bspiry at comcast.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:47:31 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > Were you able to find some practice tests that were readable using a screen > reader like JAWS? The practice test on the LSAC site are crummy for > accessibility. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:29 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest > bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I > could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > > > From: bspiry at comcast.net > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare > for > > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > > appreciated. > > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > > additional time? > > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > > Bill Spiry > > 541-510-2623 > > Springfield Oregon > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in > the > > time they are allow. > > > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. > > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if > > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I > finished > > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > > > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > > _022009 > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > et > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot > mail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 07:13:52 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:13:52 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net><4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net><317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg><2FEFBFEE-CADC-4BCF-A7DC-566696EF5E54@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <95C741B67C4140089E51658582B86C50@JamesWeisberg> My suggestion would be to seek out a compassionate doc, develop a respectful relationship. Explain the situation and ask if he/she would be willing to help you. My guess is most kind compassionate docs would lean towards a "yes." This can EVEN be done in Cal with Medi-Cal!! James Law Office of J. William Weisberg 980 9th Street - 16th Floor Sacramento, California 95814 V: 916.425.1010 F: 916.374.7667 This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 5:15 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments you can always get the form signed by a doctor that treated or evaluated you in the past or go to a county medical facility for such an evaluation. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > Problems with this: I was born blind, and thus was blind at the time of > taking out the loans, going through college, etc. I am, however, losing > my hearing, and have incurred such hearing loss that my ability to work > is severely impacted. Upon obtaining the forms to cancel my loan, I > discovered that I not only had to fill out this form, but in three years, > I will be assessed again to see whether in fact I have made substantial > monetary gain in that time. Essentially, I have to stay out of work for > three years, and I am hoping to find work *SOMEWHERE*. Also, since I now > no longer have health insurance, I can't afford the doctor visit to get > the form signed that states that I have a disability that substantially > impairs my ability to work... > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob al.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 0sbcglobal.net From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 07:23:52 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:23:52 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <701D3CB569034C898E539A9693401ED8@spike> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <701D3CB569034C898E539A9693401ED8@spike> Message-ID: <00C11257FFE64F2CA32E03EEFE6C43EC@JamesWeisberg> Steve: Personal responsibility is important. Agreed. But who takes responsibility for society stigmatizing and stereotyping the blind so they experience such hardship in the form of hiring discrimination? If society's discrimination prevents one from "substantial gainful employment" should not this same society relieve such a blind person of the burden of repayment of such loans? Curious to know if you believe someone who avails themselves of such relief is avoiding personal responsibility? Respectfully, James Law Office of J. William Weisberg 980 9th Street - 16th Floor Sacramento, California 95814 V: 916.425.1010 F: 916.374.7667 This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 5:42 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments However, under the new bankruptcy laws student loans are not necessarily discharged under bankruptcy. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Locke Milholland" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > "Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans." > > absolutely True, with some exceptions. > 15 chapters of Title 11, aka the Bankruptcy code for starters. > > Locke > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve P. Deeley" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 3:49 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > >> Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you >> get a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to >> convey? > your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: >>>> 02/25/09 >>>> 06:40:00 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40g mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 >> 07:03:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotm ail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob al.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 0sbcglobal.net From timandvickie at hotmail.com Fri Feb 27 08:49:56 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 08:49:56 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <00C11257FFE64F2CA32E03EEFE6C43EC@JamesWeisberg> References: <0KFN0028PFEPVX80@mta1.manage.insightcom.com><20090226162544.GA12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <701D3CB569034C898E539A9693401ED8@spike> <00C11257FFE64F2CA32E03EEFE6C43EC@JamesWeisberg> Message-ID: i wish they would give the blidn a chance to "Serve their country" in order to earn collegee tuition like they do with letting people serve in the military to earn goign to college. I would ahve enlisted if I had the chance > From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:23:52 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > Steve: > > Personal responsibility is important. Agreed. But who takes responsibility > for society stigmatizing and stereotyping the blind so they experience such > hardship in the form of hiring discrimination? If society's discrimination > prevents one from "substantial gainful employment" should not this same > society relieve such a blind person of the burden of repayment of such > loans? Curious to know if you believe someone who avails themselves of such > relief is avoiding personal responsibility? > > Respectfully, > > James > > Law Office of J. William Weisberg > 980 9th Street - 16th Floor > Sacramento, California 95814 > V: 916.425.1010 > F: 916.374.7667 > > > > This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are > not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain > this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the > sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications > Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 5:42 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > However, under the new bankruptcy laws student loans are not necessarily > discharged under bankruptcy. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Locke Milholland" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 2:23 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > "Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans." > > > > absolutely True, with some exceptions. > > 15 chapters of Title 11, aka the Bankruptcy code for starters. > > > > Locke > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve P. Deeley" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 3:49 PM > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments > > > > > >> Everyone needs to take responsibility for repaying their loans. Do you > >> get a pass card if you are blind? Is that what your attempting to > >> convey? > > your account info for > >>>>> blindlaw: > >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in > sightbb.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. > >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>>> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: > >>>> 02/25/09 > >>>> 06:40:00 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> blindlaw mailing list > >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> blindlaw: > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40g > mail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> blindlaw mailing list > >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> blindlaw: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in > sightbb.com > >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > >> > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 > > >> 07:03:00 > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> blindlaw: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lmilholland%40hotm > ail.com > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob > al.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 > 0sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009 From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 09:56:18 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 03:56:18 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> References: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> Message-ID: Looking at this test, this is not a big deal to format this for JAWS 8. Its tedious but it can be done. I will start it this weekend, it might take a week or two to lay out depending on my work load. It will also work with a combination of Narrator and Read out Loud so that people who cannot afford screen readers can use it. That is always a good selling point to government regulators. AFB tech says my format works with Window Eyes but I don't have the program. Really I don't see what their problem is in making this accessible. They probably just do not know how to do it. What they have right now is a mess. James On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Bill Spiry wrote: > James, I'd be very interested in what you are doing with this. I'll be > taking the LSAT in June, and I've found the LSAC sampel LSAT test to be > miserably inaccessible with JAWS, blended columns, ordering and tagging is > a > mess, just about totally impossible to read it with any comprehensible > clarity. > > If you've found a way to sort or rearrange the PDF in some way to make it > useable, I'd sure appreciate getting a piece of that. I look forward to > hearing from you. > Thanks. > Bill Spiry > 541-510-2623 > Springfield Oregon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Pepper > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:26 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > Scott: > I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC > website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a > combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those who > do > not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says my > process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. > > It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the form > would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any manual > entry of data. > > If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see what > I > can do! > > James Pepper > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre > wrote: > > > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California Court. > > ************** > > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > > > Disability Rights Advocates > > > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the > Blind > > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs, > > > > v. > > > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > > > Defendant. > > > > > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF > THE > > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, > seeks > > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law > School > > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to > take > > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind > law > > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal access > to > > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" > > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the > > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, advantages > > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test > > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test preparation > > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers > that > > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and > LSAT > > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without > > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, > > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities, > > and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > JURISDICTION > > > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons Act > > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. Civ. > > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil > > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and > California > > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates its > > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > VENUE > > > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the > acts > > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights of > > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons > in > > Alameda County. > > > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and > practice > > materials. > > > > PARTIES > > > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter > "NFB") > > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly > > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal > > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto > Rico. > > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind persons. > > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive agencies > of > > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on > behalf > > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to > promote > > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their > efforts > > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) > removing > > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs > > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created by > > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have > long > > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, so > > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > > States, including the state of California, and many of its members would > use > > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by > > the blind. > > > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation > and > > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters > > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its headquarters > in > > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to > the > > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school > admissions > > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a > > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided by > > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > > > FACTS > > > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. > Lsac.org > > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive services > > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, > lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application > process, and > > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also serves > as > > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to > > ABA-accredited law schools. > > > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > > > a.. Register for the LSAT > > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > > schools > > e.. Apply online to law schools > > f.. Register for law school forums > > g.. Have 24-hour file access > > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to > > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that > > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the > > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and the > > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits > and > > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. > Goraya, > > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure > > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind > > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently apply > to > > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the > > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org > . > > > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction > with > > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a > refreshable > > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. > > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind > persons > > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > > products and services contained therein. > > > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at > least > > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web > Consortium, > > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed > > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines > > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent > free > > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading > software. > > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and > > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow > users > > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be > > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize > the > > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to > > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access > > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online > law > > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack > these > > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to the > > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on the > > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly > "tagged." > > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions and > > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As > a > > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind > > visitor to navigate. > > > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, > available > > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the > > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than > 40 > > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer the > > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible to > > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary > hurdles > > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared > to > > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select > and > > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of > the > > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the > > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions > of > > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. > Lsac.org > > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access > to > > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and > > facilities of lsac.org. > > > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the > Blind > > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. > LSAC > > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal > > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) > > > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > incorporated by reference. > > > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals with > > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the general > > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other places > to > > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and > > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, > is > > an > > > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general > public > > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal > access > > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available > to > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > incorporated by reference. > > > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, > > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and > equal > > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC > and > > lsac.org. > > > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the > rights > > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or > obvious > > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available > to > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > incorporated by reference. > > > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website > > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil > > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this > time > > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and > > duties and act accordingly. > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining > and/or > > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and > > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required > by > > law; > > > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs as > > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., California > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > > Procedure § 1021.5. > > > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems > just > > and proper. > > > > > > > > DATED: > > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > > > > > > By: > > ____________________________ > > > > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > > Denver, Colorado 80222 > > 303 504-5979 (voice) > > 303 757-3640 (fax) > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may > not > > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this > message > > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. > This > > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From JMcCarthy at nfb.org Fri Feb 27 13:40:43 2009 From: JMcCarthy at nfb.org (McCarthy, Jim) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 08:40:43 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course toreviewcasein light of ADAAA In-Reply-To: <61D5D43034C2477CB96DBB287F9647EB@spike> Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B26D5D8@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> We are spending a lot of time deciding if we would or wouldn't have this person perform medical services on us. Though that may be an interesting discussion regarding how comfortable we with blindness are with people having our disability or other disabilities performing complicated procedures, that is not really the importance of the case. As to Chuck's question, I think the person had a learning disability that he asserted caused him to process read material slower than others and required extra time as a result. The original decision, I think, was that he did not have a disability under the ADA so there was no requirement to consider his request. The decision of the 6th circuit was that because of the ADA amendments, it is clear that he has a disability. Now the question is whether or not he should be accommodated in the manner he wants. He has not won yet and he might not. The arguments going forward will be many of those we are having here. Maybe someone who is slow at reading or processing is steady as can be under surgical conditions or other high stress conditions of the practice of medicine and maybe too the person is competent to complete the school education and will do a type of practice not so high stress performance. Perhaps the test advocates can argue successfully that performance of the test under those time limits really is a critical factor. Many of us on this list never had to take the LSAT at all. Others of us who took it did so with accommodations like extra time. Perhaps still others had no time accommodations at all. Those who are practicing an those who went to law school know that reading is a big part of what you do in school and in practice. Many got extra time or did not have to take the test at all, and yet I think most of us believe that it would not be correct practice despite some cases to the contrary to seek extra time from judges because of blindness and whatever challenges we think that might cause. There is an obligation to represent your clients completely regardless. I guess my point is that the career expectations should be the same for people with or without disabilities. This guy may or may not get the chance to take the test the way he thinks he needs and I guess we will see. Jim McCarthy -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:27 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course toreviewcasein light of ADAAA If I recall there was nothing in this court ruling that even stated that the party had a visual impairment. I don't recall the decision stating what the nature of the disability was. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Schulz" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcasein light of ADAAA no, you don't get the point of my question. if he is in psych, i don't care but if he's wanting to do something involved with internal procedures, i would demand another doc. Bryan Schulz The BEST Solution www.best-acts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Breeze" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to reviewcase in light of ADAAA Don't worry Bryan, there are enough sighted doctors that can botch your surgery. Open your yellow pages to the physician reference, there you will find many doctors that are not surgeons that could easily perform their jobs without sight. A very small percentage of doctors are surgeons. Go see a psychiatrist and have him close his eyes, I bet he can still analyze you. Many people in the past and still to this day think that a person needs sight to program computers and develop web pages. On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Bryan Schulz wrote: > what kind of doctor does he want to become? > i don't want a doc to botch a surgery. > > Bryan Schulz > The BEST Solution > www.best-acts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nightingale, Noel" < > Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:27 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case > in light of ADAAA > > > From Special Ed Connection >> > > Key points: > > 6th Court of Appeals told lower course to review case in light of ADAAA > Lower court denied request for extra time to take medical licensing test > Congress seeks to move focus from whether student has disability to > whether > accommodation reasonable > Ruling on testing accommodations shows effect of ADAAA > > On its face, a court ruling that renewed a man's hopes of getting extra > time on a medical licensing test does not affect special education. > Jenkins > v. National Board of Medical Examiners, 109 LRP 7480 (6th Cir. 2009). > > The U.S. Medical Licensing Examination, after all, is a professional test, > not an academic one, and the plaintiff, Kirk Jenkins, previously had been > granted extra time on the ACT and the Medical College Admission Test. > > Nonetheless, the decision by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals may be of > interest to special educators because the court told the lower court, > which > rejected Jenkins' claim in February 2008, to make a fresh analysis in > light > of the ADA Amendments Act, which became effective Jan. 1. Jenkins v. > National Board of Medical Examiners, 108 LRP 10254 (W.D. Ky. 2008). > > Thus, the appeals court ruling is a reminder that decisions about > accommodations will be reviewed under a new standard if they get into > court, > according to Jose Martín, an attorney at Richards, Lindsay & Martín in > Austin, Texas. > > "This case is going to be interesting on remand more than at this time," > he > said. "Under the relaxed standard, this man is going to qualify" as > someone > with a disability that substantially limits a major life activity -- the > core requirement of the ADA. > > The question will then be whether extra time is a reasonable accommodation > for someone who, like Jenkins, has a reading disability, Martín said. And > on > that point, the outcome could go either way, he said. > > After all, he said, the lower court might say that doctors need to be able > to process written information quickly, especially in an emergency, and > rule > against Jenkins again. > > "Not all tests can be untimed," Martín said. "Part of being smart is how > quick you are, is how quickly you process." > > But if that is what the case turns on, Congress will have achieved its > purpose, which was to shift the discussion from whether someone has a > disability and how severe it is to whether the accommodation they are > requesting is reasonable, Martín said. > > "The Congress wants this kid to be able to get into court and to be able > to > argue [that getting extra time to take the test is] a reasonable > accommodation . . . and they want the medical examiners to say, 'No, this > is > not a reasonable accommodation,'" Martín said. "That's the news of the > case. > That's the fundamental analytical shift." > > Ken Cotton, a spokesman for the National Board of Medical Examiners, > declined to comment on the Jenkins case. The board "has been and will > continue to provide reasonable accommodations to applicants with > qualifying > disabilities as defined by the" ADAAA he said in an e-mail. > > The Jenkins case, while still in a preliminary stage, shows that the rules > for granting accommodations have changed, according to Robert Schaeffer, > public education director for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing. > > The District Court ruling put "an arbitrary hurdle in front of Jenkins' > ability to pursue the occupation for which he has been trained," he said. > "This is an example of why Congress passed the amendments." > > Martín did not go that far in his remarks. > > "All the 6th Circuit is saying is, 'Hey, lower court, the law has changed > . > . . and you need to readdress the claims made by this young man in light > of > the new law,'" he said. > > Nonetheless, testing organizations "have some thinking to do," Martín > said. > "To the extent that they've been applying a more restrictive analysis as > to > whether we should even talk about your [request for an] accommodation, > then > that should be rethought altogether." > > Special Ed Connection® related stories: > > College Board says ADAAA has not affected its decisions on accommodations > (Feb. 24) > *For more stories and guidance on this topic, see the ADA Amendments Act > Roundup. > > Mark W. Sherman, a Washington bureau correspondent, covers special > education issues for LRP Publications. > > February 24, 2009 > > Copyright 2009 © LRP Publications > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pebreeze%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jmccarthy%40nfb.org From angie.matney at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 15:17:08 2009 From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:17:08 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit Message-ID: There are books with actual LSAT's on Bookshare. HTH, Angie Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit From: "Bill Spiry" Date: 02/27/2009 1:58 AM Were you able to find some practice tests that were readable using a screen reader like JAWS? The practice test on the LSAC site are crummy for accessibility. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:29 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > From: bspiry at comcast.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare for > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > appreciated. > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > additional time? > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > Bill Spiry > 541-510-2623 > Springfield Oregon > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in the > time they are allow. > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I finished > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot mail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore _022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 15:37:53 2009 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:37:53 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> <20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> Okay, since I started this somehow, I want to clarify two points: First point: I do\ not wish to use blindness as a reason for not working, since I was blind when I went to college. In light of my progressive and now severe hearing loss, however, and the compounded difficulties in obtaining that employment, I wish to be either left alone, or put on a drastically reduced pay schedule, until and unless I acquire a job that allows me, as was the original intent, to pay the loans back without unduly stressing myself financially or domestically. Second point, call it B: I do not wish or wish to seem to espouse the moral stance that blind people, myself or anyone else, should be given a get out of debt free card. As stated above, if an arrangement whereby I could pay $20 per month were reached, I should be most timely with these payments, as they do not unduly stress me, until such time as I have acquired that dream job in the adaptive tech field in which my true genius can shine, and in which I am *PAID* congruent with my genius... Or until I win the lottery, sell a body organ, compose, arrange and produce that one-hit wonder song, ... I trust this is clear. Point Number Gamma: There is *NO!* point letter three! From bspiry at comcast.net Fri Feb 27 15:45:19 2009 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:45:19 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> Message-ID: <002701c998f2$64c17f40$2e447dc0$@net> If you'd be willing to share a copy once you've reformatted, I'd certainly appreciate it. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Pepper Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 1:56 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint Looking at this test, this is not a big deal to format this for JAWS 8. Its tedious but it can be done. I will start it this weekend, it might take a week or two to lay out depending on my work load. It will also work with a combination of Narrator and Read out Loud so that people who cannot afford screen readers can use it. That is always a good selling point to government regulators. AFB tech says my format works with Window Eyes but I don't have the program. Really I don't see what their problem is in making this accessible. They probably just do not know how to do it. What they have right now is a mess. James On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Bill Spiry wrote: > James, I'd be very interested in what you are doing with this. I'll be > taking the LSAT in June, and I've found the LSAC sampel LSAT test to be > miserably inaccessible with JAWS, blended columns, ordering and tagging is > a > mess, just about totally impossible to read it with any comprehensible > clarity. > > If you've found a way to sort or rearrange the PDF in some way to make it > useable, I'd sure appreciate getting a piece of that. I look forward to > hearing from you. > Thanks. > Bill Spiry > 541-510-2623 > Springfield Oregon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Pepper > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:26 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > Scott: > I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC > website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a > combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those who > do > not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says my > process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. > > It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the form > would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any manual > entry of data. > > If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see what > I > can do! > > James Pepper > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre > wrote: > > > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California Court. > > ************** > > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > > > Disability Rights Advocates > > > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the > Blind > > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs, > > > > v. > > > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > > > Defendant. > > > > > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF > THE > > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, > seeks > > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law > School > > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to > take > > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind > law > > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal access > to > > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" > > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the > > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, advantages > > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test > > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test preparation > > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers > that > > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and > LSAT > > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without > > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, > > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, facilities, > > and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > JURISDICTION > > > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons Act > > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. Civ. > > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil > > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and > California > > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates its > > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > VENUE > > > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the > acts > > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights of > > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons > in > > Alameda County. > > > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and > practice > > materials. > > > > PARTIES > > > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter > "NFB") > > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly > > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal > > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto > Rico. > > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind persons. > > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive agencies > of > > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on > behalf > > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to > promote > > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their > efforts > > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) > removing > > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs > > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created by > > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have > long > > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, so > > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > > States, including the state of California, and many of its members would > use > > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by > > the blind. > > > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation > and > > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters > > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its headquarters > in > > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to > the > > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school > admissions > > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a > > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided by > > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > > > FACTS > > > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. > Lsac.org > > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive services > > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, > lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application > process, and > > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also serves > as > > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to > > ABA-accredited law schools. > > > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > > > a.. Register for the LSAT > > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > > schools > > e.. Apply online to law schools > > f.. Register for law school forums > > g.. Have 24-hour file access > > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to > > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that > > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the > > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and the > > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits > and > > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. > Goraya, > > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure > > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind > > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently apply > to > > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the > > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org > . > > > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction > with > > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a > refreshable > > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. > > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind > persons > > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > > products and services contained therein. > > > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at > least > > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web > Consortium, > > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed > > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines > > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent > free > > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading > software. > > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and > > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow > users > > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be > > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize > the > > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to > > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access > > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online > law > > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack > these > > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to the > > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on the > > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly > "tagged." > > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions and > > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As > a > > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind > > visitor to navigate. > > > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, > available > > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the > > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than > 40 > > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer the > > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible to > > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary > hurdles > > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared > to > > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select > and > > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of > the > > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the > > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions > of > > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. > Lsac.org > > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access > to > > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and > > facilities of lsac.org. > > > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the > Blind > > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. > LSAC > > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal > > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) > > > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > incorporated by reference. > > > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals with > > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the general > > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other places > to > > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and > > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, > is > > an > > > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general > public > > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal > access > > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available > to > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > incorporated by reference. > > > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, > > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and > equal > > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC > and > > lsac.org. > > > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the > rights > > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or > obvious > > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available > to > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > incorporated by reference. > > > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website > > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil > > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this > time > > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and > > duties and act accordingly. > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining > and/or > > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and > > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required > by > > law; > > > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs as > > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., California > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > > Procedure § 1021.5. > > > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems > just > > and proper. > > > > > > > > DATED: > > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > > > > > > By: > > ____________________________ > > > > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > > Denver, Colorado 80222 > > 303 504-5979 (voice) > > 303 757-3640 (fax) > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may > not > > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this > message > > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. > This > > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov Fri Feb 27 16:02:50 2009 From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 08:02:50 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments, Purpose of This List In-Reply-To: References: <00C11257FFE64F2CA32E03EEFE6C43EC@JamesWeisberg> Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60315B317@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov> Hi Group, While I genuinely understand the importance of this discussion, all but a few tiny pieces of the posts on this thread have been unrelated to the legal focus of this list. Yes, social policy is often intertwined with law as it needs to be, but there are some two dozen notes just in the past 24 hours on this thread, with precious little new being mentioned on the legal front. There was some very useful specifics about which kinds of payments can or cannot be garnished, and on federal law provisions for getting student loans cancelled under certain circumstances. However, those two legal aspects were almost totally lost in all the volume of discussion on other aspects of this issue. I apologize for even mentioning all this, but the reality is that if notes on a list become fairly wide off the mark of the intended purpose of the list, then people find it hard to come up with the time to read through all the long strings looking for something they can apply to their legal practice or experience. Sincerely, Tim Ford From timandvickie at hotmail.com Fri Feb 27 18:11:05 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:11:05 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: <002701c998f2$64c17f40$2e447dc0$@net> References: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> <002701c998f2$64c17f40$2e447dc0$@net> Message-ID: if you have the full version of adobe you could always convert from pdf to word then change from ultiple columns to one;) > From: bspiry at comcast.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:45:19 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > If you'd be willing to share a copy once you've reformatted, I'd certainly > appreciate it. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Pepper > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 1:56 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > Looking at this test, this is not a big deal to format this for JAWS 8. Its > tedious but it can be done. I will start it this weekend, it might take a > week or two to lay out depending on my work load. It will also work with a > combination of Narrator and Read out Loud so that people who cannot afford > screen readers can use it. That is always a good selling point to > government regulators. AFB tech says my format works with Window Eyes but I > don't have the program. > Really I don't see what their problem is in making this accessible. They > probably just do not know how to do it. What they have right now is a mess. > > James > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Bill Spiry wrote: > > > James, I'd be very interested in what you are doing with this. I'll be > > taking the LSAT in June, and I've found the LSAC sampel LSAT test to be > > miserably inaccessible with JAWS, blended columns, ordering and tagging is > > a > > mess, just about totally impossible to read it with any comprehensible > > clarity. > > > > If you've found a way to sort or rearrange the PDF in some way to make it > > useable, I'd sure appreciate getting a piece of that. I look forward to > > hearing from you. > > Thanks. > > Bill Spiry > > 541-510-2623 > > Springfield Oregon > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > Behalf Of James Pepper > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:26 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > Scott: > > I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC > > website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a > > combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those who > > do > > not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says my > > process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. > > > > It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the form > > would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any manual > > entry of data. > > > > If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see what > > I > > can do! > > > > James Pepper > > > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre > > wrote: > > > > > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California > Court. > > > ************** > > > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > > > > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > > > > > Disability Rights Advocates > > > > > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > > > > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > > > > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > > > > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > > > > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > > > > > > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > > > > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > > > > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > > > > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > > > > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > > > > > > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > > > > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > > > > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > > > > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > > > > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > > > > > > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > > > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > > > > > > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the > > Blind > > > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs, > > > > > > v. > > > > > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > > > > > Defendant. > > > > > > > > > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF > > THE > > > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > > > > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > > > > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > > > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, > > seeks > > > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law > > School > > > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking to > > take > > > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a blind > > law > > > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal > access > > to > > > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > > > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter "lsac.org" > > > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and the > > > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > > > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, > advantages > > > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > > > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions Test > > > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test > preparation > > > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers > > that > > > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants and > > LSAT > > > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials without > > > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. Goraya, > > > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, > facilities, > > > and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > > > JURISDICTION > > > > > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons > Act > > > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. > Civ. > > > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > > > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California Civil > > > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and > > California > > > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > > > > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > > > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > > > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates > its > > > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > > > > > VENUE > > > > > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > > > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > > > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the > > acts > > > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the rights > of > > > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to patrons > > in > > > Alameda County. > > > > > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > > > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and > > practice > > > materials. > > > > > > PARTIES > > > > > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter > > "NFB") > > > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > > > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation duly > > > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its principal > > > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > > > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto > > Rico. > > > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind > persons. > > > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive > agencies > > of > > > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on > > behalf > > > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to > > promote > > > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their > > efforts > > > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) > > removing > > > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken beliefs > > > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations created > by > > > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > > > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have > > long > > > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the blind, > so > > > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > > > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > > > States, including the state of California, and many of its members would > > use > > > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently usable by > > > the blind. > > > > > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > > > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > > > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California corporation > > and > > > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local chapters > > > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its > headquarters > > in > > > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > > > > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > > > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to > > the > > > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > > > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school > > admissions > > > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, a > > > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided > by > > > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > > > > > FACTS > > > > > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. > > Lsac.org > > > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive > services > > > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > > > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > > > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, > > lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application > > process, and > > > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also > serves > > as > > > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying to > > > ABA-accredited law schools. > > > > > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > > > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > > > > > a.. Register for the LSAT > > > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > > > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > > > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > > > schools > > > e.. Apply online to law schools > > > f.. Register for law school forums > > > g.. Have 24-hour file access > > > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > > > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted to > > > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in that > > > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for the > > > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > > > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and > the > > > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > > > > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the benefits > > and > > > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. > > Goraya, > > > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's failure > > > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, blind > > > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently > apply > > to > > > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format the > > > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through lsac.org > > . > > > > > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction > > with > > > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a > > refreshable > > > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer screen. > > > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind > > persons > > > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > > > products and services contained therein. > > > > > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > > > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at > > least > > > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > > > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > > > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web > > Consortium, > > > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has developed > > > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > > > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > > > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These guidelines > > > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > > > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > > > > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent > > free > > > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading > > software. > > > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > > > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables and > > > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow > > users > > > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must be > > > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and vocalize > > the > > > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > > > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed to > > > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > > > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with screen-access > > > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online > > law > > > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, lack > > these > > > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to > the > > > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > > > > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on > the > > > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly > > "tagged." > > > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions > and > > > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. As > > a > > > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a blind > > > visitor to navigate. > > > > > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, > > available > > > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to the > > > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more than > > 40 > > > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer > the > > > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats accessible > to > > > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > > > > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > > > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary > > hurdles > > > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school compared > > to > > > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > > > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > > > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to select > > and > > > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content of > > the > > > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of the > > > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered versions > > of > > > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. > > Lsac.org > > > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal access > > to > > > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, and > > > facilities of lsac.org. > > > > > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the > > Blind > > > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. > > LSAC > > > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > > > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue legal > > > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > > > > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons Act) > > > > > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals > with > > > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the > general > > > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other > places > > to > > > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and > > > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > > > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > > > > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, > > is > > > an > > > > > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general > > public > > > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > > > > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > > > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal > > access > > > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > > > > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available > > to > > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > > > > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > > > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, > facilities, > > > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > > > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > > > > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > > > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > > > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > > > > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > > > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and > > equal > > > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of LSAC > > and > > > lsac.org. > > > > > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > > > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the > > rights > > > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or > > obvious > > > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > > > > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief requiring > > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to make > > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons available > > to > > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > > > > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > > > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > > > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > > > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and website > > > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil > > > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > > > > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this > > time > > > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights and > > > duties and act accordingly. > > > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > > > > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > > > > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > > > > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining > > and/or > > > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind and > > > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as required > > by > > > law; > > > > > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs > as > > > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., > California > > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > > > Procedure § 1021.5. > > > > > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems > > just > > > and proper. > > > > > > > > > > > > DATED: > > > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By: > > > ____________________________ > > > > > > > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > > > > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > > > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > > > Denver, Colorado 80222 > > > 303 504-5979 (voice) > > > 303 757-3640 (fax) > > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > > > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > > > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may > > not > > > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this > > message > > > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. > > This > > > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > > > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > et > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 From mikefry79 at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 19:36:23 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:36:23 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> References: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> <20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902271136u417c05b5s6ee72e015fc13552@mail.gmail.com> Good luck Mark I sincerely hope that you're able to write the loans off. Hopefully, you'll be able to use the same method that J. William Weisberg described above to get rid of his. In any event try not to let it stress you out to much because even in the worse case scenario there's not debtors prison or anything like that. On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 7:37 AM, Mark BurningHawk wrote: > Okay, since I started this somehow, I want to clarify two points: > First point: I do\ not wish to use blindness as a reason for not working, > since I was blind when I went to college. In light of my progressive and > now severe hearing loss, however, and the compounded difficulties in > obtaining that employment, I wish to be either left alone, or put on a > drastically reduced pay schedule, until and unless I acquire a job that > allows me, as was the original intent, to pay the loans back without unduly > stressing myself financially or domestically. > Second point, call it B: I do not wish or wish to seem to espouse the > moral stance that blind people, myself or anyone else, should be given a get > out of debt free card. As stated above, if an arrangement whereby I could > pay $20 per month were reached, I should be most timely with these payments, > as they do not unduly stress me, until such time as I have acquired that > dream job in the adaptive tech field in which my true genius can shine, and > in which I am *PAID* congruent with my genius... Or until I win the > lottery, sell a body organ, compose, arrange and produce that one-hit wonder > song, ... I trust this is clear. > Point Number Gamma: There is *NO!* point letter three! > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From mikefry79 at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 19:54:40 2009 From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:54:40 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c58e54a0902271154p7e9b0c63uab8a502fb4d51ab3@mail.gmail.com> My advice, Bill, is to ask for at least double time to take the test, my experience was that I needed every minute of it. In addition, take the Kaplan Review course for the LSAT. It improved my score by at least 10 points. Plus Kaplan will accomodate your disability and give you experience using the accomdations while taking the practice tests. You only want to take the LSAT once because it's a pain in the ass and if you take the test multiple times LSAC will average the scores together. Mike Feb 27, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Angie Matney wrote: > There are books with actual LSAT's on Bookshare. > > HTH, > > Angie > > Sent from my Nokia N82. > > -original message- > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > From: "Bill Spiry" > Date: 02/27/2009 1:58 AM > > Were you able to find some practice tests that were readable using a screen > reader like JAWS? The practice test on the LSAC site are crummy for > accessibility. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:29 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest > bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I > could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > > > From: bspiry at comcast.net > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare > for > > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > > appreciated. > > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > > additional time? > > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > > Bill Spiry > > 541-510-2623 > > Springfield Oregon > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in > the > > time they are allow. > > > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra > time. > > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea > if > > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I > finished > > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > > > > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > > _022009 > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > et > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot > mail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com > From b75205 at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 21:01:52 2009 From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:01:52 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> <002701c998f2$64c17f40$2e447dc0$@net> Message-ID: This is a pdf file, you should not have to convert it to text to make it work. Besides if this file was laid out properly you could convert it to one column using Reflow. No, the problem here is how the PDF was laid out and this is a common problem in many documents. They did not use the right programs to lay it out and turn it into a PDF files. For instance question number three in reflow is thus: 3.Ifthethirddigitofanacceptableproductcodeisnot0,whichoneofthefollowingmustbetrue? I can make the form accessible so you do not have to get someone to help you fill that out. I will put into my book a section on how to fix the LSAT. This actually is a common layout problem that I see a lot in forms and documents so this would be a good example to illustrate the solution. I will use a government form to illustrate that chapter but the LSAT is doing the same thing. The only set of questions that will be a distinct problem are the visual logic questions. They are map questions but what they really are is a set of visual logic questions where you have to be able to see to work them out. They seem to be the same sort of thing you find in IQ tests where you have to arrange a set of blocks to form an object, with the exception that they include objects that do not apply, shapes that would interfere with the structure of the set of blocks. In the IQ test it measures your ability to handle 3 dimensions and I think a similar test should be used in the LSAT test. I ran into a lot of this type of testing in Architecture School. It is a big problem if you cannot think in three dimensions. My church is expanding its ampitheatre and they were all convinced that they would have a set of new hallways on the plans so that people could enter the theatre at the bottom of the hall so that they could use elevators for the disabled people. But the hallways were actually the stairs for the theatre where people got into the seats and they realized once if was built that they had no way to get people to the bottom of the theatre unless they opened up a storage closet and turned it into a hallway. The funny thing is that in the renovation, they did it again! They got the steps mixed up with the hallways on the plans. They just cannot think 3 dimensionally. So clearly this question will have to be redone. There is a map on the National Voter Registration form and this was a big contentious problem especially for the state of Arkansas which insisted that the blind were able to do this in the past on their voter registration form. Of course everyone got help to make this map. On the form you are to located two sets of lines which indicate cross streets. You are to label these cross streets with the names of your closest cross streets, then you place an X on the form of your home's position relative to these cross streets. Then you place marks and write in the locations of your police stations, court houses and other landmarks onto this map. I suggested that this be replaced by a form field where people describe where they live relative to the nearest cross street. Arkansas insisted on the map so their poll workers could find the applicant and so the blind must get assistance in Arkansas to fill out their applications form. The National Form also requires the blind to get assistance to fill out the form. I suggested using GPS. I made the form so there is no need for assistance. You just fill it out, like anyone else and you don't have to go all over the document to find the content, it is right there in front of you. So I will look at the LSAT and lay it out properly. See what I can do to solve this problem. The key here is to make sur ethey understand that the blind can do this all by themselves, they do not need assistance. This attitude of insisting they have help is why nobody goes the extra mile and make documents forms and tests completely accessible. They just do not have the right atttitude! James Pepper On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 12:11 PM, tim and vickie shaw < timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote: > > if you have the full version of adobe you could always convert from pdf to > word then change from ultiple columns to one;) > > > From: bspiry at comcast.net > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:45:19 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > If you'd be willing to share a copy once you've reformatted, I'd > certainly > > appreciate it. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > Behalf Of James Pepper > > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 1:56 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > Looking at this test, this is not a big deal to format this for JAWS 8. > Its > > tedious but it can be done. I will start it this weekend, it might take a > > week or two to lay out depending on my work load. It will also work with > a > > combination of Narrator and Read out Loud so that people who cannot > afford > > screen readers can use it. That is always a good selling point to > > government regulators. AFB tech says my format works with Window Eyes but > I > > don't have the program. > > Really I don't see what their problem is in making this accessible. They > > probably just do not know how to do it. What they have right now is a > mess. > > > > James > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Bill Spiry wrote: > > > > > James, I'd be very interested in what you are doing with this. I'll be > > > taking the LSAT in June, and I've found the LSAC sampel LSAT test to be > > > miserably inaccessible with JAWS, blended columns, ordering and tagging > is > > > a > > > mess, just about totally impossible to read it with any comprehensible > > > clarity. > > > > > > If you've found a way to sort or rearrange the PDF in some way to make > it > > > useable, I'd sure appreciate getting a piece of that. I look forward to > > > hearing from you. > > > Thanks. > > > Bill Spiry > > > 541-510-2623 > > > Springfield Oregon > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > > Behalf Of James Pepper > > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:26 AM > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > > > Scott: > > > I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC > > > website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a > > > combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those > who > > > do > > > not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says > my > > > process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. > > > > > > It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the > form > > > would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any > manual > > > entry of data. > > > > > > If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see > what > > > I > > > can do! > > > > > > James Pepper > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California > > Court. > > > > ************** > > > > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > > > > > > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > > > > > > > Disability Rights Advocates > > > > > > > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > > > > > > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > > > > > > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > > > > > > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > > > > > > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > > > > > > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > > > > > > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > > > > > > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > > > > > > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > > > > > > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > > > > > > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > > > > > > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > > > > > > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > > > > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the > > > Blind > > > > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs, > > > > > > > > v. > > > > > > > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > > > > > > > Defendant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF > > > THE > > > > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > > > > > > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > > > > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, > > > seeks > > > > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law > > > School > > > > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking > to > > > take > > > > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a > blind > > > law > > > > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal > > access > > > to > > > > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > > > > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter " > lsac.org" > > > > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and > the > > > > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > > > > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, > > advantages > > > > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > > > > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions > Test > > > > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test > > preparation > > > > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers > > > that > > > > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants > and > > > LSAT > > > > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials > without > > > > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. > Goraya, > > > > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, > > facilities, > > > > and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > JURISDICTION > > > > > > > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons > > Act > > > > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. > > Civ. > > > > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > > > > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California > Civil > > > > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and > > > California > > > > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > > > > > > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > > > > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > > > > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates > > its > > > > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > VENUE > > > > > > > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > > > > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > > > > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the > > > acts > > > > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the > rights > > of > > > > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to > patrons > > > in > > > > Alameda County. > > > > > > > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > > > > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and > > > practice > > > > materials. > > > > > > > > PARTIES > > > > > > > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter > > > "NFB") > > > > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > > > > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation > duly > > > > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its > principal > > > > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > > > > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto > > > Rico. > > > > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind > > persons. > > > > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive > > agencies > > > of > > > > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on > > > behalf > > > > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to > > > promote > > > > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their > > > efforts > > > > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) > > > removing > > > > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken > beliefs > > > > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations > created > > by > > > > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > > > > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have > > > long > > > > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the > blind, > > so > > > > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > > > > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > > > > States, including the state of California, and many of its members > would > > > use > > > > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently > usable by > > > > the blind. > > > > > > > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > > > > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > > > > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California > corporation > > > and > > > > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local > chapters > > > > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its > > headquarters > > > in > > > > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > > > > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to > > > the > > > > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > > > > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school > > > admissions > > > > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, > a > > > > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided > > by > > > > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > > > > > > > FACTS > > > > > > > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. > > > Lsac.org > > > > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive > > services > > > > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > > > > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > > > > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, > > > lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application > > > process, and > > > > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also > > serves > > > as > > > > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying > to > > > > ABA-accredited law schools. > > > > > > > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > > > > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > > > > > > > a.. Register for the LSAT > > > > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > > > > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > > > > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > > > > schools > > > > e.. Apply online to law schools > > > > f.. Register for law school forums > > > > g.. Have 24-hour file access > > > > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > > > > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted > to > > > > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in > that > > > > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for > the > > > > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > > > > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and > > the > > > > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > > > > > > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the > benefits > > > and > > > > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. > > > Goraya, > > > > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's > failure > > > > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, > blind > > > > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently > > apply > > > to > > > > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format > the > > > > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through > lsac.org > > > . > > > > > > > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction > > > with > > > > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a > > > refreshable > > > > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer > screen. > > > > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind > > > persons > > > > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > > > > products and services contained therein. > > > > > > > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > > > > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at > > > least > > > > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > > > > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > > > > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web > > > Consortium, > > > > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has > developed > > > > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > > > > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > > > > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These > guidelines > > > > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > > > > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > > > > > > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent > > > free > > > > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading > > > software. > > > > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > > > > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables > and > > > > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow > > > users > > > > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must > be > > > > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and > vocalize > > > the > > > > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > > > > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed > to > > > > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > > > > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with > screen-access > > > > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online > > > law > > > > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, > lack > > > these > > > > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to > > the > > > > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > > > > > > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on > > the > > > > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly > > > "tagged." > > > > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions > > and > > > > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. > As > > > a > > > > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a > blind > > > > visitor to navigate. > > > > > > > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, > > > available > > > > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to > the > > > > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more > than > > > 40 > > > > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer > > the > > > > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats > accessible > > to > > > > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > > > > > > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > > > > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary > > > hurdles > > > > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school > compared > > > to > > > > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > > > > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > > > > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to > select > > > and > > > > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content > of > > > the > > > > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of > the > > > > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered > versions > > > of > > > > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. > > > Lsac.org > > > > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal > access > > > to > > > > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, > and > > > > facilities of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the > > > Blind > > > > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. > > > LSAC > > > > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > > > > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue > legal > > > > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > > > > > > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons > Act) > > > > > > > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals > > with > > > > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the > > general > > > > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other > > places > > > to > > > > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions > and > > > > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > > > > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > > > > > > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, > > > is > > > > an > > > > > > > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general > > > public > > > > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > > > > > > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > > > > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal > > > access > > > > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief > requiring > > > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to > make > > > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons > available > > > to > > > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > > > > > > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > > > > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, > > facilities, > > > > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > > > > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > > > > > > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > > > > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > > > > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > > > > > > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > > > > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and > > > equal > > > > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of > LSAC > > > and > > > > lsac.org. > > > > > > > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > > > > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the > > > rights > > > > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or > > > obvious > > > > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > > > > > > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief > requiring > > > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to > make > > > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons > available > > > to > > > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > > > > > > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > > > > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > > > > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > > > > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and > website > > > > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California > Civil > > > > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > > > > > > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this > > > time > > > > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights > and > > > > duties and act accordingly. > > > > > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > > > > > > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > > > > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > > > > > > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > > > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > > > > > > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining > > > and/or > > > > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind > and > > > > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as > required > > > by > > > > law; > > > > > > > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs > > as > > > > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., > > California > > > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > > > > Procedure § 1021.5. > > > > > > > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems > > > just > > > > and proper. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DATED: > > > > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By: > > > > ____________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > > > > > > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > > > > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > > > > Denver, Colorado 80222 > > > > 303 504-5979 (voice) > > > > 303 757-3640 (fax) > > > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > > > > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > > > > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you > may > > > not > > > > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this > > > message > > > > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > > > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. > > > This > > > > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > > > > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > > et > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > et > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 27 22:24:44 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:24:44 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902271136u417c05b5s6ee72e015fc13552@mail.gmail.com> References: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net><317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg><20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net><155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> <8c58e54a0902271136u417c05b5s6ee72e015fc13552@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5770A30169DF4472962486B93FF6616B@JamesWeisberg> Mark: I specifically remember the code stating "if the debtor is disabled when they sign their promissory note, AND subsequently their disability becomes substantially worse . . . ," the debtor may avail themselves of the provisions of the code on cancellation I described earlier. This was the facts in the case I handled. Further, under this standard, if a second disability like hearing loss set in after the note was signed you're golden. That combined with your vision issues certainly would meet the standard. Time to shop for a doc Mark! That code provision is there for such situations. James Law Office of J. William Weisberg 980 9th Street - 16th Floor Sacramento, California 95814 V: 916.425.1010 F: 916.374.7667 This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Fry Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:36 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments Good luck Mark I sincerely hope that you're able to write the loans off. Hopefully, you'll be able to use the same method that J. William Weisberg described above to get rid of his. In any event try not to let it stress you out to much because even in the worse case scenario there's not debtors prison or anything like that. On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 7:37 AM, Mark BurningHawk wrote: > Okay, since I started this somehow, I want to clarify two points: > First point: I do\ not wish to use blindness as a reason for not working, > since I was blind when I went to college. In light of my progressive and > now severe hearing loss, however, and the compounded difficulties in > obtaining that employment, I wish to be either left alone, or put on a > drastically reduced pay schedule, until and unless I acquire a job that > allows me, as was the original intent, to pay the loans back without unduly > stressing myself financially or domestically. > Second point, call it B: I do not wish or wish to seem to espouse the > moral stance that blind people, myself or anyone else, should be given a get > out of debt free card. As stated above, if an arrangement whereby I could > pay $20 per month were reached, I should be most timely with these payments, > as they do not unduly stress me, until such time as I have acquired that > dream job in the adaptive tech field in which my true genius can shine, and > in which I am *PAID* congruent with my genius... Or until I win the > lottery, sell a body organ, compose, arrange and produce that one-hit wonder > song, ... I trust this is clear. > Point Number Gamma: There is *NO!* point letter three! > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail. com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 0sbcglobal.net From timandvickie at hotmail.com Sat Feb 28 00:40:34 2009 From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (tim and vickie shaw) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:40:34 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c9987e$1625ff60$4271fe20$@net> <002701c998f2$64c17f40$2e447dc0$@net> Message-ID: oh i just remembred something iw anted ot ask everyoen about when they took teir lsat. Section 2 of my test wasnt there. it said "this section has been deleted" and when they test proctors tried to call LSAT to find out why and what to do all they would say is "the section was deleted on purpose, but we cant say why for confidentiality reasons" does anyone have any idea what this may be about? > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:01:52 -0600 > From: b75205 at gmail.com > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > This is a pdf file, you should not have to convert it to text to make it > work. Besides if this file was laid out properly you could convert it to one > column using Reflow. No, the problem here is how the PDF was laid out and > this is a common problem in many documents. They did not use the right > programs to lay it out and turn it into a PDF files. > > For instance question number three in reflow is thus: > 3.Ifthethirddigitofanacceptableproductcodeisnot0,whichoneofthefollowingmustbetrue? > I can make the form accessible so you do not have to get someone to help you > fill that out. > > I will put into my book a section on how to fix the LSAT. This actually is a > common layout problem that I see a lot in forms and documents so this would > be a good example to illustrate the solution. I will use a government form > to illustrate that chapter but the LSAT is doing the same thing. > > The only set of questions that will be a distinct problem are the visual > logic questions. They are map questions but what they really are is a set of > visual logic questions where you have to be able to see to work them out. > > They seem to be the same sort of thing you find in IQ tests where you have > to arrange a set of blocks to form an object, with the exception that they > include objects that do not apply, shapes that would interfere with the > structure of the set of blocks. In the IQ test it measures your ability to > handle 3 dimensions and I think a similar test should be used in the LSAT > test. > > I ran into a lot of this type of testing in Architecture School. It is a > big problem if you cannot think in three dimensions. My church is expanding > its ampitheatre and they were all convinced that they would have a set of > new hallways on the plans so that people could enter the theatre at the > bottom of the hall so that they could use elevators for the disabled > people. But the hallways were actually the stairs for the theatre where > people got into the seats and they realized once if was built that they had > no way to get people to the bottom of the theatre unless they opened up a > storage closet and turned it into a hallway. > > The funny thing is that in the renovation, they did it again! They got the > steps mixed up with the hallways on the plans. They just cannot think 3 > dimensionally. > > So clearly this question will have to be redone. There is a map on the > National Voter Registration form and this was a big contentious problem > especially for the state of Arkansas which insisted that the blind were able > to do this in the past on their voter registration form. Of course everyone > got help to make this map. > > On the form you are to located two sets of lines which indicate cross > streets. You are to label these cross streets with the names of your > closest cross streets, then you place an X on the form of your home's > position relative to these cross streets. Then you place marks and write in > the locations of your police stations, court houses and other landmarks onto > this map. > > I suggested that this be replaced by a form field where people describe > where they live relative to the nearest cross street. Arkansas insisted on > the map so their poll workers could find the applicant and so the blind must > get assistance in Arkansas to fill out their applications form. The > National Form also requires the blind to get assistance to fill out the > form. > > I suggested using GPS. > > I made the form so there is no need for assistance. You just fill it out, > like anyone else and you don't have to go all over the document to find the > content, it is right there in front of you. > > So I will look at the LSAT and lay it out properly. See what I can do to > solve this problem. The key here is to make sur ethey understand that the > blind can do this all by themselves, they do not need assistance. This > attitude of insisting they have help is why nobody goes the extra mile and > make documents forms and tests completely accessible. They just do not have > the right atttitude! > > James Pepper > > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 12:11 PM, tim and vickie shaw < > timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > if you have the full version of adobe you could always convert from pdf to > > word then change from ultiple columns to one;) > > > > > From: bspiry at comcast.net > > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:45:19 -0800 > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > > > If you'd be willing to share a copy once you've reformatted, I'd > > certainly > > > appreciate it. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > > On > > > Behalf Of James Pepper > > > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 1:56 AM > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > > > Looking at this test, this is not a big deal to format this for JAWS 8. > > Its > > > tedious but it can be done. I will start it this weekend, it might take a > > > week or two to lay out depending on my work load. It will also work with > > a > > > combination of Narrator and Read out Loud so that people who cannot > > afford > > > screen readers can use it. That is always a good selling point to > > > government regulators. AFB tech says my format works with Window Eyes but > > I > > > don't have the program. > > > Really I don't see what their problem is in making this accessible. They > > > probably just do not know how to do it. What they have right now is a > > mess. > > > > > > James > > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Bill Spiry wrote: > > > > > > > James, I'd be very interested in what you are doing with this. I'll be > > > > taking the LSAT in June, and I've found the LSAC sampel LSAT test to be > > > > miserably inaccessible with JAWS, blended columns, ordering and tagging > > is > > > > a > > > > mess, just about totally impossible to read it with any comprehensible > > > > clarity. > > > > > > > > If you've found a way to sort or rearrange the PDF in some way to make > > it > > > > useable, I'd sure appreciate getting a piece of that. I look forward to > > > > hearing from you. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Bill Spiry > > > > 541-510-2623 > > > > Springfield Oregon > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > > On > > > > Behalf Of James Pepper > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:26 AM > > > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] nfb v. lsac complaint > > > > > > > > Scott: > > > > I just downloaded the SamplePTJune07.pdf the sample test from the LSAC > > > > website and I can make that document accessible to JAWS and also to a > > > > combination of Adobe's Read out Loud and Microsoft Narrator for those > > who > > > > do > > > > not have a screen reader and who do not require braille. AFB Tech says > > my > > > > process works for Window Eyes, but I do not have Window Eyes. > > > > > > > > It would take a while to lay it all out but it can be done. And the > > form > > > > would be automated so they would not be able to complain about any > > manual > > > > entry of data. > > > > > > > > If you all have a more up to date test, send me a copy and I will see > > what > > > > I > > > > can do! > > > > > > > > James Pepper > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Scott C. LaBarre > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Below I am sharing the complaint that we filed today in California > > > Court. > > > > > ************** > > > > > LaurEnce W. paradis (California Bar No. 122336) > > > > > > > > > > Anna levine (California Bar No. 227881) > > > > > > > > > > Disability Rights Advocates > > > > > > > > > > 2001 Center Street, Third Floor > > > > > > > > > > Berkeley, California 94704 > > > > > > > > > > Telephone: (510) 665-8644 > > > > > > > > > > Facsimile: (510) 665-8511 > > > > > > > > > > TTY: (510) 665-8716 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SCOTT LABARRE (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > > > > > LABARRE LAW OFFICES, P.C. > > > > > > > > > > 1660 S. Albion Street, Ste 918 > > > > > > > > > > Denver, Colo 80222 > > > > > > > > > > Telephone: (303) 504-5979 > > > > > > > > > > Fax: (303) 757-3640 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DANIEL F. GOLDSTEIN (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > > > > > MEHGAN Sidhu (to seek pro hac vice admission) > > > > > > > > > > Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP > > > > > > > > > > 120 E. Baltimore St., Suite 1700 > > > > > > > > > > Baltimore, MD 21202 > > > > > > > > > > Telephone: (410) 962-1030 > > > > > > > > > > Fax: (410) 385-0869 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA > > > > > COUNTY OF ALAMEDA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > National Federation of the Blind, the National Federation of the > > > > Blind > > > > > of CALIFORNIA, and DEEPA GORAYA, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs, > > > > > > > > > > v. > > > > > > > > > > LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL, INC., > > > > > > > > > > Defendant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case No.: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > COMPLAINT FOR INJUNCTIVE AND DECLARATORY RELIEF FOR VIOLATIONS OF > > > > THE > > > > > CALIFORNIA DISABLED PERSONS ACT AND UNRUH CIVIL RIGHTS ACT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > INTRODUCTION > > > > > > > > > > Plaintiffs complain of Defendant and allege herein as follows: > > > > > > > > > > 1. This action, brought by the National Federation of the Blind, > > > > > the National Federation of the Blind of California, and Deepa Goraya, > > > > seeks > > > > > to put an end to civil rights violations committed by defendant Law > > > > School > > > > > Admissions Council (hereafter "LSAC") against blind persons seeking > > to > > > > take > > > > > the LSAT exam and apply to law schools. Plaintiff Deepa Goraya, a > > blind > > > > law > > > > > school applicant in California, has been and is being denied equal > > > access > > > > to > > > > > the accommodations, advantages, and facilities LSAC provides its > > > > > non-disabled customers through http://www.lsac.org (hereafter " > > lsac.org" > > > > > and "the website"). Plaintiffs National Federation of the Blind and > > the > > > > > National Federation of the Blind of California have members who are > > > > > similarly denied full and equal access to such accommodations, > > > advantages > > > > > and facilities. Lsac.org is currently the only place online where > > > > > prospective law students can register for the Law School Admissions > > Test > > > > > ("LSAT"), apply to law schools, and obtain official LSAT test > > > preparation > > > > > materials and information. Lsac.org contains multiple access barriers > > > > that > > > > > make it difficult if not impossible for blind law school applicants > > and > > > > LSAT > > > > > test takers to use the website and to obtain practice materials > > without > > > > > sighted assistance. LSAC thus excludes the blind, including Ms. > > Goraya, > > > > > from full and equal access to the accommodations, advantages, > > > facilities, > > > > > and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > > > JURISDICTION > > > > > > > > > > 2. This is a civil action under California's Disabled Persons > > > Act > > > > > (Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq.) and the Unruh Civil Rights Act (Cal. > > > Civ. > > > > > Code §§ 51, et seq.) and for declaratory relief. This Court has > > > > > jurisdiction over the claims alleged herein pursuant to California > > Civil > > > > > Code §§ 54, et seq. and California Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and > > > > California > > > > > Code of Civil Procedure section 1060. > > > > > > > > > > 3. This Court has jurisdiction over LSAC because LSAC is a > > > > > corporation authorized to do business in California and LSAC conducts > > > > > substantial business in California. LSAC owns, maintains and operates > > > its > > > > > website, lsac.org, throughout California and in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > VENUE > > > > > > > > > > 4. Venue is proper in Alameda County because liability arises in > > > > > part in Alameda County, where the National Federation of the Blind of > > > > > California has its headquarters. LSAC has been and is committing the > > > > acts > > > > > alleged herein in Alameda County, has been and is violating the > > rights > > > of > > > > > patrons in Alameda County, and has been and is causing injury to > > patrons > > > > in > > > > > Alameda County. > > > > > > > > > > 5. Plaintiff Goraya is a California citizen and has experienced > > > > > injury in California as a result of LSAC's inaccessible website and > > > > practice > > > > > materials. > > > > > > > > > > PARTIES > > > > > > > > > > 6. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind (hereafter > > > > "NFB") > > > > > is a national advocacy organization. The NFB, the oldest and largest > > > > > national organization of blind persons, is a non-profit corporation > > duly > > > > > organized under the laws of the District of Columbia with its > > principal > > > > > place of business in Baltimore, Maryland. It has affiliates in all 50 > > > > > states (including California) as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto > > > > Rico. > > > > > The vast majority of the approximately 50,000 members are blind > > > persons. > > > > > The NFB is widely recognized by the public, Congress, executive > > > agencies > > > > of > > > > > government and the courts as a collective and representative voice on > > > > behalf > > > > > of blind Americans and their families. The purpose of the NFB is to > > > > promote > > > > > the general welfare of the blind by (1) assisting the blind in their > > > > efforts > > > > > to integrate themselves into society on terms of equality and (2) > > > > removing > > > > > barriers and changing social attitudes, stereotypes and mistaken > > beliefs > > > > > that sighted and blind persons hold concerning the limitations > > created > > > by > > > > > blindness resulting in the denial of opportunity to blind persons in > > > > > virtually every sphere of life. The NFB and many of its members have > > > > long > > > > > been actively involved in promoting adaptive technology for the > > blind, > > > so > > > > > that blind persons can live and work independently in today's > > > > > technology-dependent world. NFB members reside throughout the United > > > > > States, including the state of California, and many of its members > > would > > > > use > > > > > the services of lsac.org if this website is made independently > > usable by > > > > > the blind. > > > > > > > > > > 7. Plaintiff the National Federation of the Blind of California > > > > > (hereafter "NFB of California") is a state affiliate of the National > > > > > Federation of the Blind. NFB of California is a California > > corporation > > > > and > > > > > carries out NFB's objectives at the state level. It has local > > chapters > > > > > throughout California, including Alameda County, and has its > > > headquarters > > > > in > > > > > Fremont, California, in Alameda County. > > > > > > > > > > 8. Plaintiff Goraya is a member of the NFB and the NFB of > > > > > California. She is blind and has been denied full and equal access to > > > > the > > > > > accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > > > 9. Defendant LSAC, is a non-profit corporation > > > > > established to coordinate, facilitate, and enhance the law school > > > > admissions > > > > > process. LSAC owns, operates and/or maintains the website lsac.com, > > a > > > > > public accommodation. Plaintiffs seek access to the services provided > > > by > > > > > LSAC in California through lsac.org. > > > > > > > > > > FACTS > > > > > > > > > > 10. Lsac.org is owned, controlled and/or operated by LSAC. > > > > Lsac.org > > > > > is a public accommodation that offers its visitors comprehensive > > > services > > > > > for applying to law school. The website functions as the official > > > > > destination for guiding prospective law school applicants through the > > > > > fundamental steps of applying to law school. Among its services, > > > > lsac.orgoffers information about the LSAT and law school application > > > > process, and > > > > > extensive LSAT preparation materials and resources. Lsac.org also > > > serves > > > > as > > > > > the exclusive online means for registering for the LSAT and applying > > to > > > > > ABA-accredited law schools. > > > > > > > > > > 11. According to the website, lsac.org's online services enable > > > > > prospective law students to do the following, among other things: > > > > > > > > > > a.. Register for the LSAT > > > > > b.. Register for the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service) > > > > > c.. Purchase publications and test preparation materials > > > > > d.. Have access to electronic applications for all ABA-approved law > > > > > schools > > > > > e.. Apply online to law schools > > > > > f.. Register for law school forums > > > > > g.. Have 24-hour file access > > > > > 12. In addition to facilitating the LSAT and law school application > > > > > processes, a significant portion of the lsac.org website is devoted > > to > > > > > preparing students to take the LSAT. Among the services offered in > > that > > > > > regard are online information guides that explain how to prepare for > > the > > > > > LSAT and free, downloadable sample practice tests and test questions. > > > > > Lsac.org also offers for a fee an online LSAT practice test tool and > > > the > > > > > opportunity to purchase more than 40 official LSAT practice tests. > > > > > > > > > > 13. While sighted visitors to lsac.org can easily obtain the > > benefits > > > > and > > > > > advantages offered by the website, blind individuals, including Ms. > > > > Goraya, > > > > > have been and are being denied access to lsac.org due to LSAC's > > failure > > > > > and refusal to remove access barriers to lsac.org. Specifically, > > blind > > > > > visitors to the website, including Ms. Goraya, cannot independently > > > apply > > > > to > > > > > law school, register for the LSAT, or obtain in an accessible format > > the > > > > > LSAT preparation materials and practice tests available through > > lsac.org > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > 14. The blind access websites by using keyboards in conjunction > > > > with > > > > > screen-reading software. This software vocalizes or conveys to a > > > > refreshable > > > > > Braille display information that appears visually on a computer > > screen. > > > > > Unless websites are designed to allow for use in this manner, blind > > > > persons > > > > > are unable to fully access the internet websites and the information, > > > > > products and services contained therein. > > > > > > > > > > 15. There are well-established guidelines for making websites > > > > > accessible to the blind. These guidelines have been in place for at > > > > least > > > > > several years and have been followed successfully by other public > > > > > accommodations in making their online services accessible. The Web > > > > > Accessibility Initiative (WAI), a project of the World Wide Web > > > > Consortium, > > > > > which is the leading standards organization for the Web, has > > developed > > > > > guidelines for making information that is reached via the internet > > > > > accessible. The federal government has also promulgated accessibility > > > > > standards under Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. These > > guidelines > > > > > have long been readily available via the internet so that any public > > > > > accommodation could easily secure the necessary information. > > > > > > > > > > 16. Lsac.org contains a variety of access barriers that prevent > > > > free > > > > > and full use by blind persons using keyboards and screen reading > > > > software. > > > > > These barriers include but are not limited to: lack of or improperly > > > > > labeled form controls; faulty keyboard navigation; and use of tables > > and > > > > > charts that are not formatted for accessibility. Form controls allow > > > > users > > > > > to input data on online forms and applications. These controls must > > be > > > > > coded and labeled to allow screen-access software to detect and > > vocalize > > > > the > > > > > requested information. Keyboard navigation refers to the ability to > > > > > successfully navigate a website using keyboard commands, as opposed > > to > > > > > requiring a mouse as the exclusive means for navigation of the site. > > > > > Further, charts and tables must be formatted to work with > > screen-access > > > > > software. Much of the lsac.org website, and in particular the online > > > > law > > > > > school application and LSAT registration sections of the website, > > lack > > > > these > > > > > fundamental accessibility components. As a result, blind visitors to > > > the > > > > > website cannot independently use those and other critical features. > > > > > > > > > > 17. Lsac.org's test preparation materials that are available on > > > the > > > > > website in Adobe Portable Document (PDF) format, are not properly > > > > "tagged." > > > > > This means that the headings, paragraphs, tables, image descriptions > > > and > > > > > form controls are not easily discernable to screen-reading software. > > As > > > > a > > > > > result, these materials are cumbersome, if not impossible, for a > > blind > > > > > visitor to navigate. > > > > > > > > > > 18. Finally, lsac.org fails to offer LSAT practice tests, > > > > available > > > > > as part of its test preparation services, in formats accessible to > > the > > > > > blind. While the sighted can easily use the website to obtain more > > than > > > > 40 > > > > > formerly administered LSAT practice tests, the website fails to offer > > > the > > > > > opportunity to purchase these practice materials in formats > > accessible > > > to > > > > > the blind, such as Braille or an accessible electronic format. > > > > > > > > > > 19. As a result of lsac.org's accessibility barriers, blind law > > > > > school applicants, including Ms. Goraya, must go over extraordinary > > > > hurdles > > > > > to register and prepare for the LSAT and to apply to law school > > compared > > > > to > > > > > their sighted counterparts. After unsuccessfully attempting to use > > > > > lsac.org independently to register for the LSAT and fill out her law > > > > > school applications, for example, Plaintiff Goraya was forced to > > select > > > > and > > > > > rely upon a reader for over 50 hours simply to read aloud the content > > of > > > > the > > > > > website and complete her law school applications. Moreover, none of > > the > > > > > LSAT practice materials, which include previously administered > > versions > > > > of > > > > > the test, were available to her in accessible electronic formats. > > > > Lsac.org > > > > > thus contains numerous access barriers which deny full and equal > > access > > > > to > > > > > Plaintiff, who would otherwise use the accommodations, advantages, > > and > > > > > facilities of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > > > 20. On December 10, 2008, Plaintiff National Federation of the > > > > Blind > > > > > notified LSAC of the unlawful accessibility barriers on its website. > > > > LSAC > > > > > responded by setting up and then canceling a meeting with the NFB. On > > > > > January 22, 2009, the NFB notified LSAC that it intended to pursue > > legal > > > > > action against LSAC for the unlawful barriers on its website. > > > > > > > > > > FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > > > > > (Violation of Cal. Civ. Code §§ 54, et seq. - the Disabled Persons > > Act) > > > > > > > > > > 21. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > > > > > 22. The Disabled Persons Act ("DPA") requires that individuals > > > with > > > > > disabilities have "full and equal access, as other members of the > > > general > > > > > public, to accommodations, advantages, facilities, . . . and other > > > places > > > > to > > > > > which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions > > and > > > > > limitations established by law, or state or federal regulation, and > > > > > applicable alike to all persons." Cal. Civ. Code 54.1(a)(1). > > > > > > > > > > 23. Lsac.org, which is owned, operated and/or maintained by LSAC, > > > > is > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > accommodation, advantage, facility and/or place to which the general > > > > public > > > > > is invited, as those terms are used in Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1). > > > > > > > > > > 24. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the DPA, including > > > > > Cal. Civ. Code § 54.1(a)(1), by denying the Plaintiffs full and equal > > > > access > > > > > to the accommodations, advantages and facilities of lsac.org. > > > > > > > > > > 25. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > > > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief > > requiring > > > > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to > > make > > > > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons > > available > > > > to > > > > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > > > SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > > > > > (Violation of Cal.Civ. Code §§ 51, et seq. - The Unruh Act) > > > > > > > > > > 26. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > > > > > 27. California's Unruh Act requires that individuals with > > > > > disabilities have "full and equal accommodations, advantages, > > > facilities, > > > > > privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind > > > > > whatsoever." Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b). > > > > > > > > > > 28. LSAC and Lsac.org are business establishments as that term is > > > > > used in Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b) and lsac.org is an accommodation, > > > > > advantage, facility, privilege and service of LSAC. > > > > > > > > > > 29. Defendant's conduct alleged herein violates the Unruh Act, > > > > > including Cal. Civ. Code § 51(b), by denying Plaintiffs the full and > > > > equal > > > > > accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services of > > LSAC > > > > and > > > > > lsac.org. > > > > > > > > > > 30. Defendant violated the Unruh Act intentionally and/or with > > > > > deliberate indifference to the likelihood that it was violating the > > > > rights > > > > > of blind people and/or Defendant's violations were so intuitive or > > > > obvious > > > > > that noncompliance could not be other than intentional. > > > > > > > > > > 31. As a result of Defendant's conduct, the NFB, the NFB of > > > > > California, and Ms. Goraya are entitled to injunctive relief > > requiring > > > > > Defendant to make lsac.org accessible to blind individuals, and to > > make > > > > > the LSAT test practice materials offered to lsac.org patrons > > available > > > > to > > > > > blind people in an accessible format. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION > > > > > > > > > > (Declaratory Relief, Cal. Civ. Proc. § 1060 ) > > > > > > > > > > 32. The allegations contained in the previous paragraphs are > > > > > incorporated by reference. > > > > > > > > > > 33. On information and belief, Defendants contend that they may > > > > > lawfully deny Plaintiffs access to their website and its contents. > > > > > Plaintiffs contend that lsac.org, which LSAC owns, operates, and/or > > > > > controls, must provide blind patrons access to its website and > > website > > > > > contents under California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq. and California > > Civil > > > > > Code §§ 51, et seq., which prohibit discrimination against the blind. > > > > > > > > > > 34. A judicial declaration is necessary and appropriate at this > > > > time > > > > > in order that each of the parties may know their respective rights > > and > > > > > duties and act accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request relief as set forth below. > > > > > > > > > > RELIEF REQUESTED > > > > > > > > > > WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs pray for judgment as follows: > > > > > > > > > > 1. An order enjoining LSAC from violating California > > > > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq. and §§ 54, et seq.; > > > > > > > > > > 2. A declaration that LSAC is owning, maintaining > > > > and/or > > > > > operating lsac.org in a manner which discriminates against the blind > > and > > > > > which fails to provide access for persons with disabilities as > > required > > > > by > > > > > law; > > > > > > > > > > 3. Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys' fees and costs > > > as > > > > > authorized by California California Civil Code §§ 54, et seq., > > > California > > > > > Civil Code §§ 51, et seq., and pursuant to California Code of Civil > > > > > Procedure § 1021.5. > > > > > > > > > > 4. Such other and further relief as the Court deems > > > > just > > > > > and proper. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DATED: > > > > > DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATES > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By: > > > > > ____________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Laurence W. Paradis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > > > > > > > > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > > > > > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > > > > > Denver, Colorado 80222 > > > > > 303 504-5979 (voice) > > > > > 303 757-3640 (fax) > > > > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > > > > > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > > > > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > > > > > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you > > may > > > > not > > > > > read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this > > > > message > > > > > in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > > > > > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. > > > > This > > > > > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > > > > > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > > > et > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > > blindlaw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > > et > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. > > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b75205%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Same_022009 From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Sat Feb 28 00:40:59 2009 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:40:59 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Homework Accessibility? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lucy: As a general rule, all recipients of federal financial assistance, like school districts, are required by Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act and Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act to make their programs and activities accessible. The complexity comes in applying the general rule to specific cases. I suggest that you call the U.S. Department of Education Office for civil Rights assigned to your state, which can be found by going to its website at www.ed.gov/ocr. You can discuss your specific circumstances with that office. Noel Nightingale -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Alex Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 5:51 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] Homework Accessibility? I posed these concerns and questions on the Blind Parents' list but thought I would post here as well for additional advice. I am a blind, single mother of an autistic, four-year-old boy currently attending a special education pre-school program at an elementary school. He will enter Kindergarten in the fall. Because the school for which we are zoned does not have a pre-school program, he is currently attending out of zone. I am trying to move into that school zone, but with the housing market being what it is, I am not sure that the move will take place before the beginning of the 2009/2010 school year. the pre-school teacher provides e-mailed notes regarding my son's progress when I ask for them and sends exercises for homework when appropriate. the speech therapist is willing to work with me to make homework accessible; however, we are having some difficulty with coming up with a way to label pictures. There is no Vision rehabilitation Teacher at this school and may not be one in the school system (no one seems to know). My concern is that I will be the one responsible for assisting my son in completing homework assignments. although he is verbal to a degree, he is not able to tell me with any accuracy the events of his day or relate a story. He is reading some but not enough to read a homework assignment. My questions are: Is the school system obligated to make homework assignments accessible for me? If so, under what law? (the pre-school teacher has been thinking of putting my son under 504 to ensure that progress reports, IEP's, and homework will be provided to me in an accessible format. Is this the best option? If not, what is? what type of language needs to be in the IEP to ensure accessibility for me as the primary care giver? This really needs to be tight because the school for which we are zoned is not known as having a great special ed program. The IEP will be written in March. thank you for any advice and reccomendations. Lucy _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sat Feb 28 01:57:17 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:57:17 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> References: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net> <317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg> <20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net> <155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20090228015717.GC17300@yumi.bluecherry.net> Mark, Acquiring a second disability which substantially reduces your employability (I can only imagine, but it seems that deaf-blindness has got to be the most frustrating combination of disabilities out there) is precisely the intent of the forgiveness of loans on the basis of a disabling condition that provides a significant barrier to employment. I see no moral objection to you applying for loan forgiveness, given your circumstances. In terms of the massive bailouts asked for and given in the past twelve months, for you to seek loan forgiveness at this time seems like the first one I've come across that I consider to be necessary as a matter of real (not fluffy) social justice. Joseph On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 07:37:53AM -0800, Mark BurningHawk wrote: > Okay, since I started this somehow, I want to clarify two points: > First point: I do\ not wish to use blindness as a reason for not > working, since I was blind when I went to college. In light of my > progressive and now severe hearing loss, however, and the compounded > difficulties in obtaining that employment, I wish to be either left > alone, or put on a drastically reduced pay schedule, until and unless I > acquire a job that allows me, as was the original intent, to pay the > loans back without unduly stressing myself financially or domestically. > Second point, call it B: I do not wish or wish to seem to espouse the > moral stance that blind people, myself or anyone else, should be given a > get out of debt free card. As stated above, if an arrangement whereby I > could pay $20 per month were reached, I should be most timely with these > payments, as they do not unduly stress me, until such time as I have > acquired that dream job in the adaptive tech field in which my true > genius can shine, and in which I am *PAID* congruent with my genius... > Or until I win the lottery, sell a body organ, compose, arrange and > produce that one-hit wonder song, ... I trust this is clear. > Point Number Gamma: There is *NO!* point letter three! > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From bspiry at comcast.net Sat Feb 28 02:07:21 2009 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:07:21 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000801c99949$4a586860$df093920$@net> Excellent, thanks. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Angie Matney Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 7:17 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit There are books with actual LSAT's on Bookshare. HTH, Angie Sent from my Nokia N82. -original message- Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit From: "Bill Spiry" Date: 02/27/2009 1:58 AM Were you able to find some practice tests that were readable using a screen reader like JAWS? The practice test on the LSAC site are crummy for accessibility. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:29 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > From: bspiry at comcast.net > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare for > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > appreciated. > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > additional time? > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > Bill Spiry > 541-510-2623 > Springfield Oregon > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in the > time they are allow. > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra time. > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea if > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I finished > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot mail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore _022009 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From bspiry at comcast.net Sat Feb 28 02:10:03 2009 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:10:03 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0902271154p7e9b0c63uab8a502fb4d51ab3@mail.gmail.com> References: <8c58e54a0902271154p7e9b0c63uab8a502fb4d51ab3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901c99949$ab614230$0223c690$@net> Thanks, good advice. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Fry Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:55 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit My advice, Bill, is to ask for at least double time to take the test, my experience was that I needed every minute of it. In addition, take the Kaplan Review course for the LSAT. It improved my score by at least 10 points. Plus Kaplan will accomodate your disability and give you experience using the accomdations while taking the practice tests. You only want to take the LSAT once because it's a pain in the ass and if you take the test multiple times LSAC will average the scores together. Mike Feb 27, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Angie Matney wrote: > There are books with actual LSAT's on Bookshare. > > HTH, > > Angie > > Sent from my Nokia N82. > > -original message- > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > From: "Bill Spiry" > Date: 02/27/2009 1:58 AM > > Were you able to find some practice tests that were readable using a screen > reader like JAWS? The practice test on the LSAC site are crummy for > accessibility. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:29 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > i asked for time and a half on each section, and for a 15 minute rest > bestween sections. I didnt take any courses, just did every practice test I > could come across as well as reading wahtever "guides" I could find online. > > > From: bspiry at comcast.net > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:47:50 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > > Hi, I'll be taking the LSAT this June, wondering what you did to prepare > for > > the test in terms of test prep training? Were you able to find any prep > > courses that were friendly to a person with blindness? Any input would be > > appreciated. > > In your request for accommodation in testing, what did you request for > > additional time? > > I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. > > Bill Spiry > > 541-510-2623 > > Springfield Oregon > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > Behalf Of tim and vickie shaw > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:03 AM > > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Time limit > > > > > > Man after taking the LSAT I have only two thoughts in mind. > > > > > > > > 1. I dont know how people without accoodations finish those sectiosn in > the > > time they are allow. > > > > 2. Perhpas I wasnt given the extra time i was supposed to. > > > > > > > > I usually ask for extra time on tests, but this is the first time I have > > EVER used it, or i think i did. Usually i still finish well within the > > normal time limit, often beating meany people who werent given extra > time. > > Since I wasnt allowed to wear a watch per the test rules I have no idea > if > > I was given the extra time I was supposed to have or not. Oh well I > finished > > everyting, jsut didnt have time to look back over my answer at all. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > > > > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > > _022009 > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > > et > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot > mail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT HotmailR:.more than just e-mail. > > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore > _022009 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail. com > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sat Feb 28 02:18:06 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:18:06 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] 6th Court of Appeals told lower course toreviewcasein light of ADAAA In-Reply-To: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B26D5D8@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> References: <61D5D43034C2477CB96DBB287F9647EB@spike> <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B26D5D8@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: <20090228021806.GD17300@yumi.bluecherry.net> Jim, While I agree with you that we should not be asking for extra time in the workplace or things such as that, the university setting poses some unique challenges that warrant additional accommodations that we would not utilize in our careers. Namely: 1. Use of aids and adaptive techniques. In the workplace, we can and will use what our employer provides, and whatever else we can attain for ourselves. In the university setting, you will use only what the university deems is appropriate. Even when they determine that a desired accommodation is appropriate (reader, for example), they will generally not allow you to use a reader you have trained and work well with in the name of academic integrity. 2. Policy considerations. When I began at Western Oregon University in 2007, I was told that the university faculty were prohibited from providing disability accommodations of any sort to students. Union contracts state that this Bargaining Unit work was the responsibility of the appropriate employees and may not be performed by anyone else. Textbook publishers, in addition, will send electronic textbooks to a DSO, but not to a student, regardless of the student's disability and willingness to demonstrate it. Such policies generally do not exist in the workplace, and any effort you can take to reduce or eliminate the effects of your disability without your employer's involvement is almost universally regarded as a positive trait. 3. Deadlines and time limits. While these exist in the real world, they're far more arbitrary in academia. Life doesn't usually present multiple choice questions, and you aren't asked to choose the best one based on the text. Instead, you must determine the best answer you can based on what you know, and apply it. 4. Basically good work versus point thresholds. Academia is full of cases where you must make a certain point cutoff to satisfy some requirement (such as a particular letter grade), and there is a significant consequence to a B+ versus an A-, even if that consequence is caused by a point representing 0.2% of the grade. In the workplace, you're generally doing what you should be doing, or you aren't. Even performance evaluations are geared toward that question. I think I would accept extra time on the LSAT since I won't know until I show up to take it what sort of hoops I'll have to jump through at the last second to actually be able to take the thing since in the so-called real world, even if my deadline is tomorrow at 9am, I still can take my work home and do whatever I have to do tonight to get it done. That's not an option with high stakes testing. Joseph On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 08:40:43AM -0500, McCarthy, Jim wrote: >We are spending a lot of time deciding if we would or wouldn't have this person perform medical services on us. Though that may be an interesting discussion regarding how comfortable we with blindness are with people having our disability or other disabilities performing complicated procedures, that is not really the importance of the case. As to Chuck's question, I think the person had a learning disability that he asserted caused him to process read material slower than others and required extra time as a result. The original decision, I think, was that he did not have a disability under the ADA so there was no requirement to consider his request. The decision of the 6th circuit was that because of the ADA amendments, it is clear that he has a disability. Now the question is whether or not he should be accommodated in the manner he wants. He has not won yet and he might not. The arguments going forward will be many of those we are having here. Maybe someone who is slow at reading or processing is steady as can be under surgical conditions or other high stress conditions of the practice of medicine and maybe too the person is competent to complete the school education and will do a type of practice not so high stress performance. Perhaps the test advocates can argue successfully that performance of the test under those time limits really is a critical factor. > >Many of us on this list never had to take the LSAT at all. Others of us who took it did so with accommodations like extra time. Perhaps still others had no time accommodations at all. Those who are practicing an those who went to law school know that reading is a big part of what you do in school and in practice. Many got extra time or did not have to take the test at all, and yet I think most of us believe that it would not be correct practice despite some cases to the contrary to seek extra time from judges because of blindness and whatever challenges we think that might cause. There is an obligation to represent your clients completely regardless. I guess my point is that the career expectations should be the same for people with or without disabilities. This guy may or may not get the chance to take the test the way he thinks he needs and I guess we will see. >Jim McCarthy From theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 28 02:25:27 2009 From: theweisberggroup at sbcglobal.net (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:25:27 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] SSI payments In-Reply-To: <20090228015717.GC17300@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <4D94E93C-0FCF-4570-AF7E-DC06A2CEA572@sbcglobal.net><317BBD0766B3409C924863F3A6C9074A@JamesWeisberg><20090227040642.GD12144@yumi.bluecherry.net><155F1D0C-10B9-4D8A-AF24-26A1D8D75D8E@sbcglobal.net> <20090228015717.GC17300@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Fact. Law Office of J. William Weisberg 980 9th Street - 16th Floor Sacramento, California 95814 V: 916.425.1010 F: 916.374.7667 This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 916-425-1010 and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 5:57 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] SSI payments Mark, Acquiring a second disability which substantially reduces your employability (I can only imagine, but it seems that deaf-blindness has got to be the most frustrating combination of disabilities out there) is precisely the intent of the forgiveness of loans on the basis of a disabling condition that provides a significant barrier to employment. I see no moral objection to you applying for loan forgiveness, given your circumstances. In terms of the massive bailouts asked for and given in the past twelve months, for you to seek loan forgiveness at this time seems like the first one I've come across that I consider to be necessary as a matter of real (not fluffy) social justice. Joseph On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 07:37:53AM -0800, Mark BurningHawk wrote: > Okay, since I started this somehow, I want to clarify two points: > First point: I do\ not wish to use blindness as a reason for not > working, since I was blind when I went to college. In light of my > progressive and now severe hearing loss, however, and the compounded > difficulties in obtaining that employment, I wish to be either left > alone, or put on a drastically reduced pay schedule, until and unless I > acquire a job that allows me, as was the original intent, to pay the > loans back without unduly stressing myself financially or domestically. > Second point, call it B: I do not wish or wish to seem to espouse the > moral stance that blind people, myself or anyone else, should be given a > get out of debt free card. As stated above, if an arrangement whereby I > could pay $20 per month were reached, I should be most timely with these > payments, as they do not unduly stress me, until such time as I have > acquired that dream job in the adaptive tech field in which my true > genius can shine, and in which I am *PAID* congruent with my genius... > Or until I win the lottery, sell a body organ, compose, arrange and > produce that one-hit wonder song, ... I trust this is clear. > Point Number Gamma: There is *NO!* point letter three! > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/theweisberggroup%4 0sbcglobal.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 28 13:11:27 2009 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 05:11:27 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] job discrimination References: <7556b95a0902230550q24079427g8e9cb51525cc4078@mail.gmail.com><8c58e54a0902230834j202f12f9qadd88aa04a7b40ce@mail.gmail.com><754338AF8C224B3481F8F25E5ABA3213@spike><630BFADC2F28452286D21B7453788104@spike> <41CB34ECE4FF4361B1E51BD48A553E59@StevePC> Message-ID: <007001c999a6$10cbc3a0$6401a8c0@server> Steve, Your position seems very aggressive. I am curious about your background. Are you a lawyer or law student? If not, what sort of work do you do? This information will help me understand what is underlying your response. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > "Good, if you don't pay back federal or state loans, they should be > garnished. Just because your blind, does not mean you should not have to > pay back loans to any entity! As far as I'm concerned, SSi payments > should be eligible for garnishment. > > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:08 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination > > >> Social Security disability payments can be garnished whereas SSI payments >> cannot. >> Chuck >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mark BurningHawk" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:12 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] job discrimination >> >> >>> Corollary: Can a government student loan garnish my SSDI? If that >>> happens, there goes the neighborhood--anyone wanna buy a kidney? :) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 > 06:40:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net