From langlois2 at verizon.net  Tue Sep  1 02:34:57 2009
From: langlois2 at verizon.net (Brian Langlois)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:34:57 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Question About Rental Discrimination
References: <000301ca28c4$6e2f38d0$4a8daa70$@com>
	<D9D702557E8C4F2F8BB2F22FDCA7FBAE@spike>	<001401ca2905$d2c631e0$785295a0$@com>
	<AC26D127-41C6-487E-A0E0-8222309D2D03@sbcglobal.net>
	<B1CC07BDFC1B499BB166CFCD318DF66C@barney03>
	<F3711285-9013-4D45-ADD1-0ED926E81905@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <8D9D6AEA8D814A47BB60616C6E72EC95@barney03>

Well, I don't think there's a particular treatment for ignorance.
After all, that is what kept those folks from being accepted as renters.
The fire truck, of course, is a symbol of the idea that blind people are 
unsafe if they live alone.
I believe this particular incident happened back in the late 1950s.
I have no idea of what, if any, protections there were back in those days.

Brian


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Question About Rental Discrimination


> I'm still missing something here; why would a blind person burn the
> house down?  I didn't even know it was legal to privately own a fire
> truck, much less keep on residence. :)  I just don't understand the
> magical thinking that goes on between noting that someone's eyes don't
> work and extrapolating every conceivable disaster possible.  When I
> see a deaf person or a person using a wheelchair, I don't
> automatically start watching out for fires or hurricanes or falling
> bricks; the landlord sounds like he might need to be on meds. :)
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> stone_troll at sbcglobal.net
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/langlois2%40verizon.net


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep  1 14:37:29 2009
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 07:37:29 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Question About Rental Discrimination
In-Reply-To: <8D9D6AEA8D814A47BB60616C6E72EC95@barney03>
References: <000301ca28c4$6e2f38d0$4a8daa70$@com>
	<D9D702557E8C4F2F8BB2F22FDCA7FBAE@spike>	<001401ca2905$d2c631e0$785295a0$@com>
	<AC26D127-41C6-487E-A0E0-8222309D2D03@sbcglobal.net>
	<B1CC07BDFC1B499BB166CFCD318DF66C@barney03>
	<F3711285-9013-4D45-ADD1-0ED926E81905@sbcglobal.net>
	<8D9D6AEA8D814A47BB60616C6E72EC95@barney03>
Message-ID: <52E46000-CBE7-49B6-88CB-FC92FE31FCF6@sbcglobal.net>

Hi, Brian.  It seems to me that ignorance doesn't account for the  
irrationality and fervor with which people who can see react to those  
who cannot.  It's more like a fear/panic/defensive aggressive  
approach.  I have a theory that the lack of eye contact engages a  
response as old as the limbic system of the brain--fear the stranger  
who does not look at you, for he may be ill or insane or a threat.   
The blind are perceived as a threat, however nebulously.  As CJ  
Cherryh said, "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity got framed."

Mark BurningHawk
stone_troll at sbcglobal.net
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!




From b75205 at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 15:30:43 2009
From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 10:30:43 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Question About Rental Discrimination
In-Reply-To: <52E46000-CBE7-49B6-88CB-FC92FE31FCF6@sbcglobal.net>
References: <000301ca28c4$6e2f38d0$4a8daa70$@com>
	<D9D702557E8C4F2F8BB2F22FDCA7FBAE@spike>
	<001401ca2905$d2c631e0$785295a0$@com>
	<AC26D127-41C6-487E-A0E0-8222309D2D03@sbcglobal.net>
	<B1CC07BDFC1B499BB166CFCD318DF66C@barney03>
	<F3711285-9013-4D45-ADD1-0ED926E81905@sbcglobal.net>
	<8D9D6AEA8D814A47BB60616C6E72EC95@barney03>
	<52E46000-CBE7-49B6-88CB-FC92FE31FCF6@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <fe5b78280909010830j54f54986g8b23d7071d23b61c@mail.gmail.com>

If this is in Texas, you need to ask what type of shingles are on the roof!
In the 70's and 80's they shingled rooves of apartment houses with Cedar, so
there is a serious fire concern here!  This is the principal reason why
apartments burn in Texas.

And if the landlord was concerned about this, chances are he was assuming
you knew the place had cedar shingles, you see he forgot that you were
blind, that you couldn't see the shingles.  So I think he has a legitmate
concern if he has cedar shingles on the apartment.

James G. Pepper

From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Wed Sep  2 21:59:23 2009
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 16:59:23 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Part-time/Job Share Attorney Position at Microsoft/Job
 share - Ref#21196416
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F83138@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>


Rachel Black posted:

Title:  Attorney
This position is eligible for the following work arrangements:
Part-Time

Looking for some of the most interesting legal work around?  Want to be directly involved in creating excitement around a range of great Microsoft technologies, software and services throughout the world?  If so, Microsoft is looking for you!

The Server and Tools Business (STB) is looking for a part-time experienced attorney to join the Legal and Corporate Affairs (LCA) department at our global headquarters in Redmond, Washington.  STB is a thriving business with approximately US$13 billion in annual revenue.
STB develops and markets products and services that are widely used by enterprises and developer communities, such as Windows Server, SQL Server, Visual Studio, the System Center suite of systems management products and the Forefront suite of security products.

This attorney will work as part of a team to support the Developer and Platform Evangelism (DPE) organization in STB.  DPE is a critical business team that collaborates widely with other product and business teams across STB and Microsoft to evangelize and advance adoption of a broad range of Microsoft technologies, efforts which are critical to Microsoft's success as a platform technology company.  The successful candidate will need to demonstrate ingenuity, drive, and experience needed to devise creative solutions and identify "smart risks" to help achieve business goals.  The attorney will work closely with all levels of Microsoft executives, managers and employees, as well as outside customers and partners.

Primary responsibilities:
-       Work directly with executives and business development,
technology evangelist and marketing teams to analyze and address legal issues across a wide array of customer and partner programs and engagements.
-       Advise executives and other internal business clients on a broad
range of complex and rapidly developing legal and business issues, such as intellectual property (including open source software), interoperability, marketing, competition law and privacy.

-       Structure, draft, negotiate and advise on a wide range of
agreements with global business customers and partners, including agreements for strategic alliances and joint marketing, software development and collaboration, outbound and inbound licenses for software and online services and other customer and partner engagements.
-       Partner with clients to understand and advise on cutting edge
Microsoft business strategy and use of technologies.
-       Collaborate with other attorneys and legal professionals at
Microsoft to resolve cross-group issues and projects efficiently and effectively.

We are looking for an attorney who meets the following basic
requirements:
-       Admitted to practice law in the US.
-       Minimum of 6 years of law firm or relevant in-house experience.
-       Software licensing and marketing experience; familiarity with
competition law a strong plus.
-       Outstanding analytical, organizational, and communication
skills.
-       Working knowledge or strong interest in learning more about
computer software and Internet technologies.
-       Keen business sense, ability to think strategically and focus on
establishing a "trusted advisor" relationship with executives and other business clients.
-       Demonstrated ability to work efficiently, meet demanding
deadlines in a fast-paced environment, prioritize workflow and adjust to frequent workload fluctuations.
-       Strong results orientation and customer focus.
-       Desire and ability to work as part of a team.
-       Demonstrated ability to work independently with limited
supervision, working with a variety of personalities across a large number of diverse internal groups, teams and cultures.
-       Willingness to have fun.

The above description has been designed to indicate the general nature and level of work performed by an employee in this position.  The actual duties, responsibilities and qualifications may vary.  Microsoft is an Equal Opportunity Employer and supports workforce diversity.

Allison Williams  l  Senior Staffing Consultant  l  Microsoft Corporation  l  425.538.7033  l  alliwil at microsoft.com

________________________________________
View and comment online: http://www.bigtent.com/group/forum/message/21196416
HINT: When replying by email, please do not include the original message.



From ERinglein at nfb.org  Thu Sep  3 00:23:10 2009
From: ERinglein at nfb.org (Ringlein,
	Ellen)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:23:10 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Mildred Rivera-Rau featured on A B A web site
Message-ID: <auto-000117050033@mailfront2.g2host.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: KENNETH RINGLEIN [mailto:KENNETH.RINGLEIN at EEOC.GOV]
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 1:52 PM
To: Ringlein, Ellen
Subject: Mildred Rivera-Rau featured on A B A web site

The following profile of Mildred is currently posted on the American Bar
Association web site.

Lawyer Spotlight, September 2009: Mildred A. Rivera-Rau, Esq.

Blind Latina employment lawyer helps promote diversity in the federal
workforce.

With the recent rise of Sonia Sotomayor to the United States Supreme
Court, Mildred A. Rivera-Rau, Esq. has a great deal of which to be
proud. Just like Justice Sotomayor, Millie is a Puerto Rican woman with
a disability who works for the federal government. There are important
differences, however, as Millie makes her impact via the federal
government as an award-winning Attorney Advisor for the U.S. Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission in Washington, DC.

Millie was born legally blind with 20/200 vision in both eyes. After
spending some of her high school years in Puerto Rico, she attended
Cornell University and then the University of Pennsylvania School of
Law. Shortly after taking the bar exam in 1990, she was diagnosed with a
brain disorder that severely impacts her mood without medication. For
the first two years of her career she worked in a large San Francisco
law firm practicing labor and employment law. She was then recruited by
the EEOC and worked as a Trial Attorney in Baltimore for 12 years before
being asked to serve as a Special Assistant to Former EEOC Chair Cari M.
Dominguez.

During her career, she received awards from the EEOC for work on a class
action sexual harassment lawsuit, EEOC disability initiatives, and the
Commission's Spanish-language website, as well as an award from the
Maryland affiliate of the National Federation of the Blind for her
outstanding volunteer activities with blind youth. Millie recently
served a three-year term as a Commissioner for the ABA Commission on
Mental and Physical Disability Law.

Currently, Millie leads a team of EEO Analysts that review federal
agencies' equal employment opportunity programs for compliance and
provide technical assistance. She also analyzes statistics regarding
workforce composition with regard to gender, race, national origin, and
disability status. Basically, she and her team make sure that federal
entities have the programs and policies in place to ensure a
barrier-free workforce. At work she accommodates her disability with a
reader and ZoomText, a software program that enlarges text and serves as
an audible screen reader. She also is permitted to work from home when
necessary.

Becoming an employment lawyer was not a certainty. Before her first
encounter with lawyers in a courtroom during college, Millie did not
think she could be an attorney. "After watching them litigate, I
discovered that lawyers are just regular people doing regular things. I
honestly thought 'Hey, I can do that!'" she noted, "And the same thing
applies to individuals with disabilities: we are just regular people who
are capable of doing regular things. Sometimes people have to simply get
past personal preconceived notions to appreciate the opportunities that
are out there."

When comparing her two roles at the EEOC, litigation and agency
oversight, Millie finds they each have their own unique benefits,
whether for her or the diversity movement. "Litigation was more
fulfilling for me, because I was able to see the result after the
proceedings," she stated, "but on the other hand, agency oversight has
the ability to affect more people across a broader spectrum."
Either way, Millie says she has her dream job.

Web site: http://www.abanet.org/disability/spotlight/sept09.shtml 



From dandrews at visi.com  Fri Sep  4 02:42:49 2009
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:42:49 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
Message-ID: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com>


>
>
> From 
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Textbooks for the Disabled
>
>
>
>August 28, 2009
>
>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>this week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier 
>for blind, dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get 
>specialized textbooks in time for classes.
>
>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>designed to centralize the process by which electronic versions of 
>textbooks are requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. 
>Experts say it will allow disabled students to get their textbooks 
>more efficiently, help colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and 
>protect publishers' copyrights.
>
>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>texts, the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for 
>their courses can be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires 
>that colleges and universities provide disabled students equal 
>access to educational materials, but this is often easier said than 
>done. College officials have to track down and contact the publisher 
>of every textbook that each of its disabled students buys and 
>request an electronic copy. If such a copy exists -- the likelihood 
>shrinks the older the book and the smaller the publisher -- college 
>officials still have to convert the file to a format that can be 
>read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the college 
>has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the book 
>and create its own electronic version.
>
>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>format can be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate 
>director of assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and 
>science texts often arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be 
>easily read by the character-recognition software the university 
>uses to turn them into standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That 
>can take a longer amount of time to process that material internally 
>and turn it around and give that to the student efficiently," he says.
>
>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled 
>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>to have a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study 
>for tests and papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of 
>high-tech training for the California Community Colleges system. "So 
>if the book doesn't come until the term has been in session for 
>three or four weeks, that puts that student very far behind." Some 
>students have sued colleges over such delays, she says.
>
>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>and delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>accessibility affairs at AAP.
>
>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>says McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that 
>out of the transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>
>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should 
>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>with each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>system, the copyright protection agreements can be handled once, 
>during registration, and the requester's bona fides can be verified 
>by a log-in.
>
>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>process the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text 
>sometimes just scan a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of 
>disabled students in a timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>
>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>colleges to convert the same text to a readable format once it is 
>acquired. Currently "numerous schools could be doing the exact same 
>thing, converting the same text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive 
>director for higher education at the publishers' association. Under 
>the new system, "if one school has already spent the time and the 
>money to convert a file to a format, they could advise the 
>AccessText network, which could then make the info available that it 
>was still available in that format, and that school could share it 
>with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the time and 
>resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he says.
>
>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>to develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>phase, which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain 
>itself by billing member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, 
>depending on size.
>
>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the 
>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>lot more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of 
>those books don't come through those big publishers, they come 
>through specialized publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that 
>part of the problem for us."
>
>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>and is recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep  7 17:43:30 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 10:43:30 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>

While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled 
students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register as 
being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for 
producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I 
learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use of 
text materials in an available format. These skills included the supervision 
of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of 
employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in a 
timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that 
materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning to 
find and create available resources and development of increased problem 
solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or otherwise 
lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately 
compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled services 
do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of 
such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with faculty 
members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an employment 
setting.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students


>
>>
>>
>> From 
>> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>
>>
>>
>>August 28, 2009
>>
>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this 
>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind, 
>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized 
>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>
>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed 
>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are 
>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will 
>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help 
>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers' 
>>copyrights.
>>
>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional texts, 
>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses can 
>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and 
>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational 
>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials have 
>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of its 
>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy 
>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the 
>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format 
>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the 
>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the 
>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>
>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format can 
>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of 
>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often 
>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the 
>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into 
>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of 
>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that 
>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>
>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled 
>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to have 
>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests and 
>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for 
>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come 
>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts that 
>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such 
>>delays, she says.
>>
>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and 
>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility 
>>affairs at AAP.
>>
>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says 
>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the 
>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>
>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should 
>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with 
>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, the 
>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration, 
>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>
>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process 
>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just scan 
>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a 
>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>
>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to 
>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently 
>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the same 
>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at 
>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has 
>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they 
>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info 
>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school 
>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the 
>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he 
>>says.
>>
>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to 
>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase, 
>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing 
>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>
>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the 
>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot 
>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those books 
>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized 
>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for us."
>>
>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is 
>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 




From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 17:59:21 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 12:59:21 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>
Message-ID: <004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>

I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact of
the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all know
in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable push
to go paperless in the court system and firms.

I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make an
individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the way
society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really almost
non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
because of my loss of sight.

Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
predominately from a sighted person's perspective.

But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.

It was great reading your comments on this.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled 
students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register as

being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for 
producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I 
learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use of

text materials in an available format. These skills included the supervision

of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of 
employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in a

timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that 
materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning to 
find and create available resources and development of increased problem 
solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or otherwise

lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately 
compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled services

do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of 
such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with faculty 
members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an employment

setting.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students


>
>>
>>
>> From 
>>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>
>>
>>
>>August 28, 2009
>>
>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this 
>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind, 
>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized 
>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>
>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed 
>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are 
>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will 
>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help 
>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers' 
>>copyrights.
>>
>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional texts,

>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses can

>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and 
>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational 
>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials have

>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of its

>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy 
>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the 
>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format 
>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the 
>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the 
>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>
>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format can

>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of 
>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often 
>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the 
>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into 
>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of 
>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that 
>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>
>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled 
>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to have

>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests and

>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for 
>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come 
>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts that

>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such 
>>delays, she says.
>>
>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and 
>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility 
>>affairs at AAP.
>>
>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says 
>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the 
>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>
>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should 
>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with 
>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, the

>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration, 
>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>
>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process 
>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just scan

>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a 
>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>
>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to 
>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently 
>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the same

>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at 
>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has 
>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they 
>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info 
>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school 
>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the 
>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he 
>>says.
>>
>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to 
>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase, 
>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing 
>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>
>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the 
>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot 
>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those books

>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized 
>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for us."
>>
>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is 
>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net 



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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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blindlaw:
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database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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From k7uij at panix.com  Mon Sep  7 19:23:15 2009
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 12:23:15 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>
	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
Message-ID: <75D254ABDAB94A79BF92AB520D7408F1@owner96190708e>

William:

I don't believe Chuck was objecting to obtaining of electronic texts. 
What he objected to was who did the obtaining.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
of
the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
know
in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
push
to go paperless in the court system and firms.

I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
an
individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
way
society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
almost
non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
because of my loss of sight.

Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
predominately from a sighted person's perspective.

But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
be
able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.

It was great reading your comments on this.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
disabled
students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
register as

being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
use of

text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
supervision

of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
in a

timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
that
materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
to
find and create available resources and development of increased problem
solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
otherwise

lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
services

do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
faculty
members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
employment

setting.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>
>>
>>
>> From
>>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>
>>
>>
>>August 28, 2009
>>
>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>this
>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>blind,
>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>
>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>designed
>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>are
>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>copyrights.
>>
>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>texts,

>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>can

>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>have

>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>its

>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>the
>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>format
>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>
>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>can

>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>often
>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>of
>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>that
>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>
>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>have

>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>and

>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>for
>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>that

>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>delays, she says.
>>
>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>affairs at AAP.
>>
>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>the
>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>
>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>with
>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>the

>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>registration,
>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>
>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>process
>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>scan

>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>a
>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>
>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>to
>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>Currently
>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>same

>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>at
>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>they
>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>the
>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>he
>>says.
>>
>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>billing
>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>
>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>books

>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>us."
>>
>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>is
>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
il.com


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindlaw:
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From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 19:49:26 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 14:49:26 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <75D254ABDAB94A79BF92AB520D7408F1@owner96190708e>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
	<75D254ABDAB94A79BF92AB520D7408F1@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <005e01ca2ff4$52027960$f6076c20$@com>

I realize he wasn't.  I was just making an observation.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 2:23 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

William:

I don't believe Chuck was objecting to obtaining of electronic texts. 
What he objected to was who did the obtaining.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
of
the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
know
in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
push
to go paperless in the court system and firms.

I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
an
individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
way
society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
almost
non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
because of my loss of sight.

Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
predominately from a sighted person's perspective.

But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
be
able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.

It was great reading your comments on this.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
disabled
students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
register as

being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
use of

text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
supervision

of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
in a

timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
that
materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
to
find and create available resources and development of increased problem
solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
otherwise

lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
services

do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
faculty
members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
employment

setting.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>
>>
>>
>> From
>>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>
>>
>>
>>August 28, 2009
>>
>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>this
>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>blind,
>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>
>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>designed
>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>are
>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>copyrights.
>>
>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>texts,

>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>can

>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>have

>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>its

>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>the
>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>format
>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>
>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>can

>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>often
>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>of
>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>that
>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>
>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>have

>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>and

>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>for
>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>that

>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>delays, she says.
>>
>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>affairs at AAP.
>>
>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>the
>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>
>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>with
>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>the

>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>registration,
>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>
>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>process
>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>scan

>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>a
>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>
>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>to
>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>Currently
>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>same

>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>at
>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>they
>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>the
>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>he
>>says.
>>
>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>billing
>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>
>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>books

>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>us."
>>
>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>is
>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net



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blindlaw:
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il.com


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindlaw:
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_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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il.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From angie.matney at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 21:00:26 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 17:00:26 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <75D254ABDAB94A79BF92AB520D7408F1@owner96190708e>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
	<75D254ABDAB94A79BF92AB520D7408F1@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <4aa5746c.85c2f10a.52e0.021b@mx.google.com>

I see both sides of this. Theoretically, blind students and others who
cannot read standard print shouldn't have to work harder to obtain their
books. But it's a shame that students wait  for weeks and weeks while
colleges seek permission from publishers to scan and disseminate one copy of
a book, particularly when it's relatively easy to do the scanning if you
have the right equipment.

I wonder if more students would do their own scanning if VR or colleges gave
them access to more efficient OCR systems.

Angie



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 3:23 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

William:

I don't believe Chuck was objecting to obtaining of electronic texts. 
What he objected to was who did the obtaining.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
of
the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
know
in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
push
to go paperless in the court system and firms.

I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
an
individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
way
society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
almost
non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
because of my loss of sight.

Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
predominately from a sighted person's perspective.

But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
be
able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.

It was great reading your comments on this.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
disabled
students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
register as

being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
use of

text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
supervision

of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
in a

timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
that
materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
to
find and create available resources and development of increased problem
solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
otherwise

lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
services

do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
faculty
members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
employment

setting.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>
>>
>>
>> From
>>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>
>>
>>
>>August 28, 2009
>>
>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>this
>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>blind,
>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>
>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>designed
>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>are
>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>copyrights.
>>
>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>texts,

>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>can

>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>have

>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>its

>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>the
>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>format
>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>
>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>can

>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>often
>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>of
>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>that
>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>
>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>have

>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>and

>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>for
>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>that

>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>delays, she says.
>>
>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>affairs at AAP.
>>
>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>the
>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>
>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>with
>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>the

>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>registration,
>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>
>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>process
>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>scan

>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>a
>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>
>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>to
>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>Currently
>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>same

>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>at
>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>they
>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>the
>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>he
>>says.
>>
>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>billing
>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>
>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>books

>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>us."
>>
>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>is
>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net



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blindlaw:
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il.com


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



_______________________________________________
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blindlaw:
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il.com



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep  7 21:32:04 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 14:32:04 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>
	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
Message-ID: <BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>

Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make any 
difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with 
the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be doing 
this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted 
students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither 
should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support 
these processes.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact of
> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
> know
> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
> push
> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>
> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
> an
> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
> way
> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really almost
> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
> because of my loss of sight.
>
> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>
> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>
> It was great reading your comments on this.
>
> William
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register 
> as
>
> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use 
> of
>
> text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
> supervision
>
> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in 
> a
>
> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
> to
> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
> otherwise
>
> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
> services
>
> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
> faculty
> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
> employment
>
> setting.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From
>>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>August 28, 2009
>>>
>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this
>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind,
>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>
>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>copyrights.
>>>
>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>>texts,
>
>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>>can
>
>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>>have
>
>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>>its
>
>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format
>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>
>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>>can
>
>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often
>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of
>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that
>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>>have
>
>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>>and
>
>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>>that
>
>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>delays, she says.
>>>
>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>
>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>
>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>>the
>
>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration,
>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>
>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>>scan
>
>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>
>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to
>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently
>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>>same
>
>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the
>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>says.
>>>
>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing
>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>
>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>>books
>
>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>>us."
>>>
>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is
>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature
> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature
> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From k7uij at panix.com  Mon Sep  7 22:37:34 2009
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 15:37:34 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike><004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
	<BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
Message-ID: <9D12FD3EFB304279922B8E6204E6C858@owner96190708e>

Chuck:

While I agree with completely and this has been NFB's position, we've 
already lost the battle on this one in that courts have ruled that the 
ADA *requires* colleges to provide textbooks. Gets Big Rehab off the 
hook, dontchya know!

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make 
any
difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
with
the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be 
doing
this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
neither
should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
these processes.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>to
> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
> fact of
> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we 
> all
> know
> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a 
> considerable
> push
> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>
> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
> make
> an
> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
> the
> way
> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
> almost
> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
> now
> because of my loss of sight.
>
> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
> had
> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>
> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
> be
> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
> unavailable.
> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>
> It was great reading your comments on this.
>
> William
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
> disabled
> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
> register
> as
>
> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but 
> I
> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
> use
> of
>
> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
> supervision
>
> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
> of
> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
> materials in
> a
>
> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
> that
> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
> learning
> to
> find and create available resources and development of increased 
> problem
> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
> otherwise
>
> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
> services
>
> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
> of
> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
> faculty
> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
> employment
>
> setting.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
> Students
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From
>>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>August 28, 2009
>>>
>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>>this
>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>blind,
>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>
>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>designed
>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>are
>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>copyrights.
>>>
>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>texts,
>
>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>courses
>>>can
>
>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>have
>
>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>of
>>>its
>
>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>the
>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>>format
>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, 
>>>the
>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan 
>>>the
>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>
>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>format
>>>can
>
>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>often
>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>amount of
>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>that
>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>have
>
>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>tests
>>>and
>
>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>for
>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't 
>>>come
>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>that
>
>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>delays, she says.
>>>
>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>and
>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>accessibility
>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>
>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>says
>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>the
>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>
>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>with
>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>system,
>>>the
>
>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>>registration,
>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>
>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>process
>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>scan
>
>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>>a
>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>
>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>colleges to
>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>Currently
>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>same
>
>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>>at
>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>they
>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>>the
>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>>he
>>>says.
>>>
>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>to
>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>phase,
>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>>billing
>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>
>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>lot
>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>books
>
>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>specialized
>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>us."
>>>
>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>and is
>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
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> il.com
>
>
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> signature
> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
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>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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> blindlaw:
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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 23:05:43 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 19:05:43 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
	<BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
Message-ID: <4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>

Hello Chhuck,

Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
"special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
book store, buy a book, and then read it?

It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books when
the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own books
in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
going to be distributed indiscriminantly. 

To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies from
the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
publishers to meet my needs for etexts. 

My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I could
do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make any

difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with 
the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be doing 
this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted 
students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither 
should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support 
these processes.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact of
> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
> know
> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
> push
> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>
> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
> an
> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
> way
> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really almost
> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
> because of my loss of sight.
>
> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>
> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>
> It was great reading your comments on this.
>
> William
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register 
> as
>
> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use 
> of
>
> text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
> supervision
>
> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in

> a
>
> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
> to
> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
> otherwise
>
> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
> services
>
> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
> faculty
> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
> employment
>
> setting.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From
>>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>August 28, 2009
>>>
>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this
>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind,
>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>
>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>copyrights.
>>>
>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>>texts,
>
>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>>can
>
>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>>have
>
>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>>its
>
>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format
>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>
>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>>can
>
>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often
>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of
>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that
>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>>have
>
>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>>and
>
>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>>that
>
>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>delays, she says.
>>>
>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>
>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>
>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>>the
>
>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration,
>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>
>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>>scan
>
>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>
>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to
>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently
>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>>same
>
>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the
>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>says.
>>>
>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing
>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>
>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>>books
>
>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>>us."
>>>
>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is
>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature
> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
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> signature
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>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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il.com



From mhanson at winternet.com  Mon Sep  7 23:23:33 2009
From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 18:23:33 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a>

I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to 
whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I thought 
this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and 
other laws covering education of students with disabilities.


Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books 
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies 
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I 
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make 
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be 
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
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>> il.com
>>
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From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 23:28:57 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 18:28:57 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
	<BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a>
Message-ID: <009601ca3012$fccbce00$f6636a00$@com>

I'm truly enjoying this conversation.

The laws have been designed to simply give an equal access or opportunity;
not to make it easier or tilted in one side's favor or the other.  There
should be a level playing field, period.

I can understand both sides of the argument, as stated previously, but
prefer to err on the side of simply making the books available for those
students with disabilities.  They are still responsible for the work that
comes with those texts.

Again, I'm enjoying this conversation since I'm fairly new to the blind
world and though independent, find some things to not be as accessible as
they should be.  

Have a great remainder of the Labor Day holiday.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael O. Hanson
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:24 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to 
whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I thought 
this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and 
other laws covering education of students with disabilities.


Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books 
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies 
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I 
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make 
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be 
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
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>> signature
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>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>> blindlaw:
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> al.net
>
>
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> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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From k7uij at panix.com  Mon Sep  7 23:36:54 2009
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 16:36:54 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
	<BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a>
Message-ID: <587CB2074ADC4637BFCC1A818C977EE7@owner96190708e>

With great respect, I believe we're missing the point when we say 
students should have "identical access". It never was, isn't now and 
never shall be. Why? Because the only way we, the blind, will ever have 
"identical access" is for us to gain or regain sight. For most of us, 
this ain't gonna happen. I believe that all we can realistically expect 
is enough access to do the job. No one ever said blindness wasn't a 
nuisance.

but my thinking on this sort of thing is definitely old-fashioned 
although gentleman such as Steve Jacobson agree with me. And as for 
scanning, man, I'd much rather use a reader than spend time with OCR 
software!

We're all missing the point of Chuck's message, however. And that is 
that once out on the job, it is unlikely that one can get the level of 
accommodation one apparently has a right to these days in college. Is it 
doing a student a favor to get him/her used to a level of provision of 
services he/she will not experience in the world of employment? I think 
not. And this comes home to roost when the frustrated new employee, used 
to what he/she got from the DSS office, howls "discrimination" when, in 
fact, it isn't discrimination but just the real world in action.

But we're straying away from law here and marching headlong into 
philosophical debate. (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to
whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I 
thought
this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and
other laws covering education of students with disabilities.


Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books 
> for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper 
> fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to 
> the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal 
> with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going 
> to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
> not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know 
> how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my 
> own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic 
> copies
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an 
> etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be 
> weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
> also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. 
> But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't 
> make
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
> with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
> neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't 
> support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>>to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
>> fact
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we 
>> all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a 
>> considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>> make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
>> the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
>> now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
>> had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view 
>> things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, 
>> should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
>> unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>> disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>> register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here 
>> but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>> use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>> of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
>> materials
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>> that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>> learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased 
>> problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to 
>> adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>> of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>>are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it 
>>>>will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, 
>>>>help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>>courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College 
>>>>officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>>of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a 
>>>>copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>>the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, 
>>>>the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan 
>>>>the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>>format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>>amount
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>>>>to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>>tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't 
>>>>come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that 
>>>>puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>>and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>>accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>>says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>>system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes 
>>>>just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students 
>>>>in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>>colleges
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting 
>>>>the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher 
>>>>education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school 
>>>>has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that 
>>>>school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those 
>>>>colleges
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file 
>>>>themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>>to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>>phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>>lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>>specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem 
>>>>for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>>and
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
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>> il.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>> blindlaw mailing list
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>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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>> blindlaw:
>>
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
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> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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> blindlaw:
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From bspiry at comcast.net  Mon Sep  7 23:59:25 2009
From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 16:59:25 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <79D10071623E4F6BBB91EA2503648054@Freddy>

I agree fully. I’ve just finished my second week of law school and I’m still
in the chase with many supplemental materials that every one of my fellow
1Ls simply had to drop by the law school café and by. The time I’ve
continued to have to spend coordinating access to the assignments all of my
peers can simply pull out of their back pack and read for 15 minutes over a
cup of coffee is time I would sorely prefer spending on my studies. Had the
university not assisted in coordinating obtaining my text books
electronically, well suffice it to say that this would have been a
considerably more challenging entrance. Its tricky enough drinking from a
fire hose when you’ve also got to make sure the hydrant stays open so the
flow doesn’t unexpectedly dry up.
I’ve learned there is nothing noble or heroic about toughing it out with the
odds already against you, particularly when the technology and potential
exists to level the playing field. This isn’t about learning how to do
things the hard way, it’s about learning the law, or whatever discipline one
studies, on a equal footing with our peers. We face plenty of hurdles every
day that we do need to do differently and that take more effort. When there
is a way to level the field it ought to be leveled.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Angie Matney
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:06 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Hello Chhuck,

Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
"special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
book store, buy a book, and then read it?

It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books when
the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own books
in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
going to be distributed indiscriminantly. 

To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies from
the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
publishers to meet my needs for etexts. 

My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I could
do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make any

difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with 
the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be doing 
this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted 
students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither 
should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support 
these processes.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact of
> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
> know
> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
> push
> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>
> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
> an
> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
> way
> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really almost
> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
> because of my loss of sight.
>
> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>
> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>
> It was great reading your comments on this.
>
> William
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register 
> as
>
> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use 
> of
>
> text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
> supervision
>
> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in

> a
>
> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
> to
> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
> otherwise
>
> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
> services
>
> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
> faculty
> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
> employment
>
> setting.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From
>>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>August 28, 2009
>>>
>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this
>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind,
>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>
>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>copyrights.
>>>
>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>>texts,
>
>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>>can
>
>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>>have
>
>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>>its
>
>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format
>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>
>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>>can
>
>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often
>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of
>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that
>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>>have
>
>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>>and
>
>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>>that
>
>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>delays, she says.
>>>
>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>
>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>
>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>>the
>
>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration,
>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>
>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>>scan
>
>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>
>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to
>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently
>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>>same
>
>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the
>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>says.
>>>
>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing
>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>
>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>>books
>
>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>>us."
>>>
>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is
>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
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>
>
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> signature
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> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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> http://www.eset.com
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>
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> database 4397 (20090905) __________
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> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 00:01:26 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 19:01:26 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <587CB2074ADC4637BFCC1A818C977EE7@owner96190708e>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>	<BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a>
	<587CB2074ADC4637BFCC1A818C977EE7@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <009701ca3017$870911a0$951b34e0$@com>

L O L
-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:37 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

With great respect, I believe we're missing the point when we say 
students should have "identical access". It never was, isn't now and 
never shall be. Why? Because the only way we, the blind, will ever have 
"identical access" is for us to gain or regain sight. For most of us, 
this ain't gonna happen. I believe that all we can realistically expect 
is enough access to do the job. No one ever said blindness wasn't a 
nuisance.

but my thinking on this sort of thing is definitely old-fashioned 
although gentleman such as Steve Jacobson agree with me. And as for 
scanning, man, I'd much rather use a reader than spend time with OCR 
software!

We're all missing the point of Chuck's message, however. And that is 
that once out on the job, it is unlikely that one can get the level of 
accommodation one apparently has a right to these days in college. Is it 
doing a student a favor to get him/her used to a level of provision of 
services he/she will not experience in the world of employment? I think 
not. And this comes home to roost when the frustrated new employee, used 
to what he/she got from the DSS office, howls "discrimination" when, in 
fact, it isn't discrimination but just the real world in action.

But we're straying away from law here and marching headlong into 
philosophical debate. (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to
whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I 
thought
this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and
other laws covering education of students with disabilities.


Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books 
> for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper 
> fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to 
> the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal 
> with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going 
> to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
> not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know 
> how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my 
> own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic 
> copies
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an 
> etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be 
> weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
> also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. 
> But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't 
> make
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
> with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
> neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't 
> support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>>to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
>> fact
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we 
>> all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a 
>> considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>> make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
>> the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
>> now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
>> had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view 
>> things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, 
>> should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
>> unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>> disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>> register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here 
>> but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>> use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>> of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
>> materials
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>> that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>> learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased 
>> problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to 
>> adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>> of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>>are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it 
>>>>will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, 
>>>>help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>>courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College 
>>>>officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>>of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a 
>>>>copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>>the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, 
>>>>the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan 
>>>>the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>>format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>>amount
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>>>>to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>>tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't 
>>>>come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that 
>>>>puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>>and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>>accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>>says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>>system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes 
>>>>just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students 
>>>>in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>>colleges
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting 
>>>>the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher 
>>>>education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school 
>>>>has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that 
>>>>school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those 
>>>>colleges
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file 
>>>>themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>>to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>>phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>>lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>>specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem 
>>>>for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>>and
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
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>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
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>
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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 00:11:55 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 20:11:55 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <587CB2074ADC4637BFCC1A818C977EE7@owner96190708e>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>	<BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a>
	<587CB2074ADC4637BFCC1A818C977EE7@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <4aa5a14d.86c3f10a.68c4.3365@mx.google.com>

Hi Mike,

Interesting. I'm far happier with OCR software. Much easier to go back and
check things later; to search for certain words, etc. I think this is
similar to how some sighted attorneys prefer to dictate materials to be
transcribed while others prefer to do their own typing.

I do agree with you that students need to be prepared for what they are
likely to encounter in the workplace. That could very well be access to a
scanner. I'm OK with scanning my own materials, but as I said before, I also
partly agree with those who think colleges and universities should provide
this material in an accessible format.

The law firm I will be working for has administrative assistants who do my
scanning. I offered to do it; they felt that my time could be better spent.

I can't remember if I posted this before or not, but my final thought is
that VR and colleges should make sure that students have access to OCR
equipment that they are likely to use, the kind of stuff that can quickly
and accurately do a job.

Angie


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 7:37 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

With great respect, I believe we're missing the point when we say 
students should have "identical access". It never was, isn't now and 
never shall be. Why? Because the only way we, the blind, will ever have 
"identical access" is for us to gain or regain sight. For most of us, 
this ain't gonna happen. I believe that all we can realistically expect 
is enough access to do the job. No one ever said blindness wasn't a 
nuisance.

but my thinking on this sort of thing is definitely old-fashioned 
although gentleman such as Steve Jacobson agree with me. And as for 
scanning, man, I'd much rather use a reader than spend time with OCR 
software!

We're all missing the point of Chuck's message, however. And that is 
that once out on the job, it is unlikely that one can get the level of 
accommodation one apparently has a right to these days in college. Is it 
doing a student a favor to get him/her used to a level of provision of 
services he/she will not experience in the world of employment? I think 
not. And this comes home to roost when the frustrated new employee, used 
to what he/she got from the DSS office, howls "discrimination" when, in 
fact, it isn't discrimination but just the real world in action.

But we're straying away from law here and marching headlong into 
philosophical debate. (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to
whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I 
thought
this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and
other laws covering education of students with disabilities.


Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books 
> for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper 
> fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to 
> the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal 
> with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going 
> to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
> not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know 
> how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my 
> own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic 
> copies
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an 
> etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be 
> weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
> also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. 
> But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't 
> make
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
> with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
> neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't 
> support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>>to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
>> fact
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we 
>> all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a 
>> considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>> make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
>> the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
>> now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
>> had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view 
>> things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, 
>> should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
>> unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>> disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>> register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here 
>> but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>> use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>> of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
>> materials
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>> that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>> learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased 
>> problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to 
>> adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>> of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>>are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it 
>>>>will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, 
>>>>help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>>courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College 
>>>>officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>>of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a 
>>>>copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>>the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, 
>>>>the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan 
>>>>the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>>format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>>amount
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>>>>to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>>tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't 
>>>>come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that 
>>>>puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>>and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>>accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>>says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>>system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes 
>>>>just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students 
>>>>in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>>colleges
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting 
>>>>the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher 
>>>>education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school 
>>>>has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that 
>>>>school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those 
>>>>colleges
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file 
>>>>themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>>to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>>phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>>lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>>specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem 
>>>>for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>>and
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
>
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>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>
>
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> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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> blindlaw:
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>
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> blindlaw mailing list
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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 00:32:13 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 20:32:13 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <79D10071623E4F6BBB91EA2503648054@Freddy>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
	<79D10071623E4F6BBB91EA2503648054@Freddy>
Message-ID: <4aa5a60e.04c2f10a.1552.2aea@mx.google.com>

Hi Bill,

Do you have access to a duplex scanner that can scan both sides of the page
at once? I found this to be absolutely essential during law school,
particularly where supplemental materials are concerned. We *ought* to have
immediate access to materials; we don't. If you don't have a scanner, maybe
your school will extend your financial aid package to help you purchase one.
It really does simplify things, and it's something you'd be able to use on
the job. 

My scanner and OCR package could process more than 100 pages in 7 minutes,
so it saved me lots and lots of time. If you want more specific info, feel
free to write off-list.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Bill Spiry
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 7:59 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

I agree fully. I’ve just finished my second week of law school and I’m still
in the chase with many supplemental materials that every one of my fellow
1Ls simply had to drop by the law school café and by. The time I’ve
continued to have to spend coordinating access to the assignments all of my
peers can simply pull out of their back pack and read for 15 minutes over a
cup of coffee is time I would sorely prefer spending on my studies. Had the
university not assisted in coordinating obtaining my text books
electronically, well suffice it to say that this would have been a
considerably more challenging entrance. Its tricky enough drinking from a
fire hose when you’ve also got to make sure the hydrant stays open so the
flow doesn’t unexpectedly dry up.
I’ve learned there is nothing noble or heroic about toughing it out with the
odds already against you, particularly when the technology and potential
exists to level the playing field. This isn’t about learning how to do
things the hard way, it’s about learning the law, or whatever discipline one
studies, on a equal footing with our peers. We face plenty of hurdles every
day that we do need to do differently and that take more effort. When there
is a way to level the field it ought to be leveled.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Angie Matney
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:06 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Hello Chhuck,

Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
"special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
book store, buy a book, and then read it?

It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books when
the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own books
in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
going to be distributed indiscriminantly. 

To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies from
the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
publishers to meet my needs for etexts. 

My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I could
do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make any

difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with 
the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be doing 
this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted 
students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither 
should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support 
these processes.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact of
> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
> know
> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
> push
> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>
> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
> an
> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
> way
> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really almost
> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
> because of my loss of sight.
>
> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>
> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>
> It was great reading your comments on this.
>
> William
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register 
> as
>
> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use 
> of
>
> text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
> supervision
>
> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in

> a
>
> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
> to
> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
> otherwise
>
> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
> services
>
> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
> faculty
> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
> employment
>
> setting.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From
>>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>August 28, 2009
>>>
>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this
>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind,
>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>
>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>copyrights.
>>>
>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>>texts,
>
>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>>can
>
>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>>have
>
>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>>its
>
>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format
>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>
>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>>can
>
>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often
>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of
>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that
>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>>have
>
>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>>and
>
>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>>that
>
>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>delays, she says.
>>>
>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>
>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>
>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>>the
>
>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration,
>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>
>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>>scan
>
>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>
>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to
>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently
>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>>same
>
>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the
>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>says.
>>>
>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing
>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>
>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>>books
>
>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>>us."
>>>
>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is
>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep  8 06:15:06 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 23:15:06 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>

While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I was 
in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the 
same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called 
scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced through 
RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In 
many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in a 
timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not 
have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the 
odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder 
to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that some 
have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see the 
judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting 
briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in some 
states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services 
offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books 
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies 
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I 
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make 
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be 
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
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>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
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>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
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From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep  8 06:27:44 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 23:27:44 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <4aa5a14d.86c3f10a.68c4.3365@mx.google.com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>	<BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a><587CB2074ADC4637BFCC1A818C977EE7@owner96190708e>
	<4aa5a14d.86c3f10a.68c4.3365@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <0AADC0B346DC4EC09DC369E889049815@spike>

I guess I was fortunate because I had a VR counselor here in California that 
provided all the needed technology.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hi Mike,
>
> Interesting. I'm far happier with OCR software. Much easier to go back and
> check things later; to search for certain words, etc. I think this is
> similar to how some sighted attorneys prefer to dictate materials to be
> transcribed while others prefer to do their own typing.
>
> I do agree with you that students need to be prepared for what they are
> likely to encounter in the workplace. That could very well be access to a
> scanner. I'm OK with scanning my own materials, but as I said before, I 
> also
> partly agree with those who think colleges and universities should provide
> this material in an accessible format.
>
> The law firm I will be working for has administrative assistants who do my
> scanning. I offered to do it; they felt that my time could be better 
> spent.
>
> I can't remember if I posted this before or not, but my final thought is
> that VR and colleges should make sure that students have access to OCR
> equipment that they are likely to use, the kind of stuff that can quickly
> and accurately do a job.
>
> Angie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 7:37 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> With great respect, I believe we're missing the point when we say
> students should have "identical access". It never was, isn't now and
> never shall be. Why? Because the only way we, the blind, will ever have
> "identical access" is for us to gain or regain sight. For most of us,
> this ain't gonna happen. I believe that all we can realistically expect
> is enough access to do the job. No one ever said blindness wasn't a
> nuisance.
>
> but my thinking on this sort of thing is definitely old-fashioned
> although gentleman such as Steve Jacobson agree with me. And as for
> scanning, man, I'd much rather use a reader than spend time with OCR
> software!
>
> We're all missing the point of Chuck's message, however. And that is
> that once out on the job, it is unlikely that one can get the level of
> accommodation one apparently has a right to these days in college. Is it
> doing a student a favor to get him/her used to a level of provision of
> services he/she will not experience in the world of employment? I think
> not. And this comes home to roost when the frustrated new employee, used
> to what he/she got from the DSS office, howls "discrimination" when, in
> fact, it isn't discrimination but just the real world in action.
>
> But we're straying away from law here and marching headlong into
> philosophical debate. (grin)
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
> I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to
> whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I
> thought
> this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and
> other laws covering education of students with disabilities.
>
>
> Mike
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> Hello Chhuck,
>>
>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books
>> for
>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper
>> fee.
>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to
>> the
>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>
>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>> when
>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>> books
>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal
>> with
>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going
>> to
>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are
>> not
>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>
>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know
>> how I
>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my
>> own
>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic
>> copies
>> from
>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an
>> etext
>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be
>> weeks
>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>
>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I
>> also
>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>> could
>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers.
>> But I
>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't
>> make
>> any
>>
>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working
>> with
>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>> doing
>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and
>> neither
>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't
>> support
>> these processes.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need
>>>to
>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the
>>> fact
>>> of
>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we
>>> all
>>> know
>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a
>>> considerable
>>> push
>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>
>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily
>>> make
>>> an
>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to
>>> the
>>> way
>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>> almost
>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically
>>> now
>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>
>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have
>>> had
>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view
>>> things
>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>
>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not,
>>> should be
>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is
>>> unavailable.
>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>
>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that
>>> disabled
>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to
>>> register
>>> as
>>>
>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here
>>> but I
>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for
>>> use
>>> of
>>>
>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>> supervision
>>>
>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work
>>> of
>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring
>>> materials
>>> in
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring
>>> that
>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant
>>> learning
>>> to
>>> find and create available resources and development of increased
>>> problem
>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>> otherwise
>>>
>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to
>>> adequately
>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>> services
>>>
>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use
>>> of
>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>> faculty
>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>> employment
>>>
>>> setting.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>this
>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>blind,
>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is
>>>>>designed
>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks
>>>>>are
>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it
>>>>>will
>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently,
>>>>>help
>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>
>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>texts,
>>>
>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their
>>>>>courses
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College
>>>>>officials
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each
>>>>>of
>>>>>its
>>>
>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a
>>>>>copy
>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller
>>>>>the
>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>format
>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not,
>>>>>the
>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan
>>>>>the
>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>
>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable
>>>>>format
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>often
>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer
>>>>>amount
>>>>>of
>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>that
>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need
>>>>>to
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for
>>>>>tests
>>>>>and
>>>
>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training
>>>>>for
>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't
>>>>>come
>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that
>>>>>puts
>>>>>that
>>>
>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request
>>>>>and
>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for
>>>>>accessibility
>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>
>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently,"
>>>>>says
>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of
>>>>>the
>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>
>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork
>>>>>with
>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the
>>>>>system,
>>>>>the
>>>
>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>registration,
>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to
>>>>>process
>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes
>>>>>just
>>>>>scan
>>>
>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students
>>>>>in a
>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different
>>>>>colleges
>>>>>to
>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>Currently
>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting
>>>>>the
>>>>>same
>>>
>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher
>>>>>education at
>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school
>>>>>has
>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format,
>>>>>they
>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that
>>>>>school
>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those
>>>>>colleges
>>>>>the
>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file
>>>>>themselves, he
>>>>>says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million
>>>>>to
>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta
>>>>>phase,
>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>billing
>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a
>>>>>lot
>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>books
>>>
>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through
>>>>>specialized
>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem
>>>>>for
>>>>>us."
>>>>>
>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers
>>>>>and
>>>>>is
>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 08:10:43 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 04:10:43 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
	<83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>
Message-ID: <4aa61184.47c1f10a.1817.ffffa9e9@mx.google.com>

Hi Chuck,

	Remember that under the ADA, no one can be required to accept an
accommodation nhe or she does not want. A college cannot require me to allow
them to provide me with books if I want to scan them.

I think that every blind high-school student ought to have access to a
scanner and OCR software like the equipment I used in law school. But even
so, scanning is not the same as reading a book, as you suggest below.
There's additional time in preparing the materials. This can be greatly
minimized with the right equipment and software, but it is not the same as
simply being able to start reading a book as soon as you buy it. I do agree
with you that we have no real reason to expect things to be "fair." All I'm
saying is that, in principle, universities should be providing this kind of
accommodation. The reality is that few have the facilities to do it, and any
blind student who depends solely on DSS for books is probably going to fall
behind. Additionally, if a blind student gains lots of practice with
scanning, she is more likely to use it recreationally. But I fear that this
is not exactly on-topic anymore.

Angie


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I was 
in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the 
same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called 
scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced through

RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In 
many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in a

timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not 
have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the 
odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder 
to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that some

have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see the

judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting 
briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in some

states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services 
offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books 
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies 
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I 
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make 
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be 
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
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>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
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>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
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>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>
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From joramsey at cox.net  Tue Sep  8 09:38:51 2009
From: joramsey at cox.net (John )
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 05:38:51 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <4aa61184.47c1f10a.1817.ffffa9e9@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <B3C35F6BD8C841328ED12F0EFB303F30@noneeb869fea9a>

Perhaps I am confusing the difference between the educational setting and
the workplace, but it has always been my understanding of the ADA that the
accommodation is reasonable not whether or not the recipient wants the
accommodation. For instance, if the accommodation is a Toyota, the recipient
cannot simply refuse the Toyota because he prefers a Cadillac.


John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.

Gainesville, FL 32609

(352) 505-6642

 

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Angie Matney
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 4:11 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


Hi Chuck,

	Remember that under the ADA, no one can be required to accept an
accommodation nhe or she does not want. A college cannot require me to allow
them to provide me with books if I want to scan them.

I think that every blind high-school student ought to have access to a
scanner and OCR software like the equipment I used in law school. But even
so, scanning is not the same as reading a book, as you suggest below.
There's additional time in preparing the materials. This can be greatly
minimized with the right equipment and software, but it is not the same as
simply being able to start reading a book as soon as you buy it. I do agree
with you that we have no real reason to expect things to be "fair." All I'm
saying is that, in principle, universities should be providing this kind of
accommodation. The reality is that few have the facilities to do it, and any
blind student who depends solely on DSS for books is probably going to fall
behind. Additionally, if a blind student gains lots of practice with
scanning, she is more likely to use it recreationally. But I fear that this
is not exactly on-topic anymore.

Angie


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I was 
in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the 
same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called 
scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced through

RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In 
many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in a

timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not 
have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the 
odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder 
to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that some

have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see the

judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting 
briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in some

states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services 
offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently. Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books 
> for them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the 
> proper fee. They don't have to convince publishers or authors that 
> they deserve a "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them 
> as a matter of course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be 
> able to go to the book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know 
> how I would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan 
> my own books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get 
> electronic copies from the publishers, I did so. If the university 
> could have produced an etext copy of every book as soon as I bought it 
> (or nearly so), I would have gladly let them do it. I don't think that 
> would have made me less independent. The problem is, the system is 
> broken. I refused to be weeks behind in my reading because of the 
> inability of the school and the publishers to meet my needs for 
> etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
> also like having some control over the process by which I obtain the 
> books. During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental 
> text, I could do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow 
> publishers. But I still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be 
> the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't 
> make
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
> with the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges 
> shouldn't be doing this for students as it fosters dependence and 
> enables them. Sighted students don't have anyone obtaining their 
> materials for them and neither should blind students. Officially, I 
> would hope that NFB doesn't support these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>>to  lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
>>fact  of  the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many 
>>things are  electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or 
>>not.  As we all  know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>> make an individual less independent.  I think this service is 
>> catching up to the way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
>> had vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view 
>> things predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, 
>> should be able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
>> unavailable. But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>> ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>> disabled students are losing their choices to be independent by 
>> having to register as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for 
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here 
>> but I learned many valuable skills by having to procure and 
>> arrangement for use of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>> of employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
>> materials in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>> that materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>> learning to find and create available resources and development of 
>> increased problem solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled 
>> students blind or otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to 
>> adequately compete in the real world of employment when programs such 
>> disabled services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>> of such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs 
>> with faculty members as they would have to do when they are on their 
>> own in an employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>designed to centralize the process by which electronic versions of 
>>>>textbooks are requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. 
>>>>Experts say it will allow disabled students to get their textbooks 
>>>>more efficiently, help colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and 
>>>>protect publishers' copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>>courses can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and 
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational 
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College 
>>>>officials have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>>of its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a 
>>>>copy exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the 
>>>>smaller the publisher -- college officials still have to convert the 
>>>>file to a format that can be read by whatever reading aid the 
>>>>student uses. If not, the college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to 
>>>>obtain permission to scan the book and create its own electronic 
>>>>version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>>format can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of 
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by 
>>>>the character-recognition software the university uses to turn them 
>>>>into standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>>amount of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled 
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>>>>to have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>>tests and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>for the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book 
>>>>doesn't come until the term has been in session for three or four 
>>>>weeks, that puts that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such 
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>>and delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>>accessibility affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>>says McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that 
>>>>out of the transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules 
>>>>up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should 
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>with each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>>system, the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>process the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text 
>>>>sometimes just scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students 
>>>>in a timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>>colleges
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher 
>>>>education at the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if 
>>>>one school has already spent the time and the money to convert a 
>>>>file to a format, they could advise the AccessText network, which 
>>>>could then make the info available that it was still available in 
>>>>that format, and that school could share it with another school" -- 
>>>>thereby sparing those colleges the time and resources it would have 
>>>>used to convert the file themselves, he says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>>to develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>>phase, which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain 
>>>>itself by billing member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, 
>>>>depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the 
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>>lot more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of 
>>>>those books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>>specialized publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of 
>>>>the problem for us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>>and
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
>
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>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 10:46:50 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 06:46:50 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <B3C35F6BD8C841328ED12F0EFB303F30@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <4aa61184.47c1f10a.1817.ffffa9e9@mx.google.com>
	<B3C35F6BD8C841328ED12F0EFB303F30@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <4aa6361c.02c3f10a.49c4.6ff8@mx.google.com>

Hi John,

There's a difference between choosing between two accommodations and
refusing accommodation altogether. To borrow your analogy, rather than
choose between a Toyota and a Cadillac, I can, under the aDA, say, "No
thanks, I'd rather walk." This is my understanding of the law. My point was
that if I have a scanner, I do not have to go through DSS at all for texts
if I don't want to. I can just buy them and scan.

Angie

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John 
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 5:39 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Perhaps I am confusing the difference between the educational setting and
the workplace, but it has always been my understanding of the ADA that the
accommodation is reasonable not whether or not the recipient wants the
accommodation. For instance, if the accommodation is a Toyota, the recipient
cannot simply refuse the Toyota because he prefers a Cadillac.


John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.

Gainesville, FL 32609

(352) 505-6642

 

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Angie Matney
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 4:11 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


Hi Chuck,

	Remember that under the ADA, no one can be required to accept an
accommodation nhe or she does not want. A college cannot require me to allow
them to provide me with books if I want to scan them.

I think that every blind high-school student ought to have access to a
scanner and OCR software like the equipment I used in law school. But even
so, scanning is not the same as reading a book, as you suggest below.
There's additional time in preparing the materials. This can be greatly
minimized with the right equipment and software, but it is not the same as
simply being able to start reading a book as soon as you buy it. I do agree
with you that we have no real reason to expect things to be "fair." All I'm
saying is that, in principle, universities should be providing this kind of
accommodation. The reality is that few have the facilities to do it, and any
blind student who depends solely on DSS for books is probably going to fall
behind. Additionally, if a blind student gains lots of practice with
scanning, she is more likely to use it recreationally. But I fear that this
is not exactly on-topic anymore.

Angie


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I was 
in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the 
same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called 
scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced through

RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In 
many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in a

timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not 
have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the 
odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder 
to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that some

have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see the

judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting 
briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in some

states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services 
offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently. Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books 
> for them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the 
> proper fee. They don't have to convince publishers or authors that 
> they deserve a "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them 
> as a matter of course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be 
> able to go to the book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know 
> how I would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan 
> my own books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get 
> electronic copies from the publishers, I did so. If the university 
> could have produced an etext copy of every book as soon as I bought it 
> (or nearly so), I would have gladly let them do it. I don't think that 
> would have made me less independent. The problem is, the system is 
> broken. I refused to be weeks behind in my reading because of the 
> inability of the school and the publishers to meet my needs for 
> etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
> also like having some control over the process by which I obtain the 
> books. During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental 
> text, I could do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow 
> publishers. But I still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be 
> the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't 
> make
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
> with the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges 
> shouldn't be doing this for students as it fosters dependence and 
> enables them. Sighted students don't have anyone obtaining their 
> materials for them and neither should blind students. Officially, I 
> would hope that NFB doesn't support these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>>to  lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
>>fact  of  the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many 
>>things are  electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or 
>>not.  As we all  know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>> make an individual less independent.  I think this service is 
>> catching up to the way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
>> had vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view 
>> things predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, 
>> should be able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
>> unavailable. But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>> ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>> disabled students are losing their choices to be independent by 
>> having to register as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for 
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here 
>> but I learned many valuable skills by having to procure and 
>> arrangement for use of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>> of employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
>> materials in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>> that materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>> learning to find and create available resources and development of 
>> increased problem solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled 
>> students blind or otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to 
>> adequately compete in the real world of employment when programs such 
>> disabled services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>> of such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs 
>> with faculty members as they would have to do when they are on their 
>> own in an employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>designed to centralize the process by which electronic versions of 
>>>>textbooks are requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. 
>>>>Experts say it will allow disabled students to get their textbooks 
>>>>more efficiently, help colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and 
>>>>protect publishers' copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>>courses can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and 
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational 
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College 
>>>>officials have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>>of its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a 
>>>>copy exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the 
>>>>smaller the publisher -- college officials still have to convert the 
>>>>file to a format that can be read by whatever reading aid the 
>>>>student uses. If not, the college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to 
>>>>obtain permission to scan the book and create its own electronic 
>>>>version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>>format can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of 
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by 
>>>>the character-recognition software the university uses to turn them 
>>>>into standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>>amount of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled 
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>>>>to have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>>tests and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>for the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book 
>>>>doesn't come until the term has been in session for three or four 
>>>>weeks, that puts that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such 
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>>and delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>>accessibility affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>>says McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that 
>>>>out of the transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules 
>>>>up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should 
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>with each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>>system, the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>process the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text 
>>>>sometimes just scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students 
>>>>in a timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>>colleges
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher 
>>>>education at the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if 
>>>>one school has already spent the time and the money to convert a 
>>>>file to a format, they could advise the AccessText network, which 
>>>>could then make the info available that it was still available in 
>>>>that format, and that school could share it with another school" -- 
>>>>thereby sparing those colleges the time and resources it would have 
>>>>used to convert the file themselves, he says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>>to develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>>phase, which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain 
>>>>itself by billing member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, 
>>>>depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the 
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>>lot more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of 
>>>>those books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>>specialized publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of 
>>>>the problem for us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>>and
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
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>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
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From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Wed Sep  9 22:35:10 2009
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 17:35:10 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F83179@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>



________________________________
From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 1:28 PM
To: jobs at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice



________________________________
From: Hunter, Sue [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 4:07 PM
To: Maurer, Patricia; nijc at aol.com; nlove at opd.state.md.us; nmcconnell at jackscamp.com; noryrp at cox.net; nromulus at gmail.com; ntb at boglechang.com; nwpatton at law.stanford.edu; ocaaba at cox.net; omanager at lawyerscomm.org; palsd at hotmail.com; patel at fr.com; pchanster at yahoo.com; pchapman at koonz.com; pgrewal at daycasebeer.com; pkim at lordbissell.com; Maurer, Patricia; pmorrison at state.wv.us; poppy.johnston at unlv.edu; president at abaw.org; president at adc.org; president at apabala.org; president at blackwomenlawyersla.org
Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice


To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp

We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you.

Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies

 *   EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEY DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION NARCOTIC AND DANGEROUS DRUG SECTION 09-CRM-NDDS-034 This position is open for 14 days, this position closes on September 28, 2009, Eastern Standard Time.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-crm-ndds-034.htm>
Date posted: 09-09-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF SOUTH DAKOTA 09-SD-AUSA-003 Applications must be post marked by September 30, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-sd-ausa-003.htm>
Date posted: 09-09-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF NEVADA RENO BRANCH OFFICE 09-NV-AUSA-04 To receive consideration for this vacancy, resumes must be received by 5:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time on September 25, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-nv-ausa-04.htm>
Date posted: 09-09-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF NEVADA 09-NV-AUSA-05 To receive consideration for this vacancy, resumes must be received by 5:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time on September 25, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-nv-ausa-05.htm>
Date posted: 09-09-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION NATURAL RESOURCES SECTION EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEY GS-12 TO GS-15 OPEN: SEPTEMBER 4, 2009 CLOSE: SEPTEMBER 11, 2009 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: ENRD-09-043-EXC Applications must be received by Friday, September 11, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/enrd-09-043-exc.htm>
Date posted: 09-04-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION NATURAL RESOURCES SECTION EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEY GS-12 TO GS-15 OPEN: SEPTEMBER 4, 2009 CLOSE: SEPTEMBER 11, 2009 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: ENRD-09-043-EXC Applications must be received by Friday, September 11, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/enrd-09-043-exc.htm>
Date posted: 09-04-2009
 *   ATTORNEY-ADVISOR EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW FALLS CHURCH, VA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-09-0113 Applications received after September 11, 2009, will not be considered.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/eoir-09-0113.htm>
Date posted: 09-04-2009
 *   UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT 09-EDNC-AUSA-05 Positions are opened until filled. The initial cut-off date for the receipt of applications is September 10, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-ednc-ausa-05.htm>
Date posted: 09-03-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT DISTRICT OF UTAH VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-IMM-01 Applications should be postmarked no later than September 21, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-imm-01.htm>
Date posted: 09-03-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT DISTRICT OF UTAH VANCANY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-PSC-01 Applications should be postmarked no later than September 21, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-psc-01.htm>
Date posted: 09-03-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF IDAHO 09-ID-07 Applications must be postmarked no later than September 18, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-id-07.htm>
Date posted: 09-03-2009
 *   FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS OFFICE OF GENERAL COUNSEL ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL LEGAL ADMINISTRATIVE BRANCH (ATTORNEY-ADVISOR) GS-905-15 This position is open until filled, but no later than September 7, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/labchiefvacann.htm>
Date posted: 09-03-2009
 *   FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS OFFICE OF GENERAL COUNSEL SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR/GENERAL COUNSEL (ATTORNEY-ADVISOR) GS-905-15 This position is open until filled, but no later than September 7, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/specialasstvacannaug09.htm>
Date posted: 09-03-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF ALASKA 09-AK-014 Applications will be reviewed and acted upon on a rolling basis until the position is filled. No applications will be received after September 16, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-ak-014.htm>
Date posted: 09-02-2009
 *   ATTORNEY-ADVISOR EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW FALLS CHURCH, VA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-09-0108 Applications received after September 17, 2009 will not be accepted.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/eoir-09-0108.htm>
Date posted: 09-02-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON ANNOUNCEMENT #2009-5 Applications must be received in the office or post-marked no later than September 21, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-usao-2009-5.htm>
Date posted: 09-02-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 09-NDCA-E-04 Positions are open until filled.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-ndca-e-04.htm>
Date posted: 09-02-2009
 *   FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS DESIGNATION AND SENTENCE COMPUTATION CENTER GRAND PRAIRIE, TEXAS ATTORNEY-ADVISOR GS-905-12/13/14 Applicatiions must be received by September 6, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-bop-attyadv-tx.htm>
Date posted: 09-02-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 09-WDNY-009 Applications will be accepted until the position is filled, with a first cut-off date of Friday, September 11, 2009. Selections may be made from those applications received by September 11, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-wdny-009.htm>
Date posted: 08-31-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE CENTRAL DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 09-CDIL-04 Applications must be received by September 18, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-cdil-04.htm>
Date posted: 08-31-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF WISCONSIN 09-WDWI-04 To receive consideration for this vacancy, resumes must be received by 5:00 p.m. Central Standard Time on September 14, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-wdwi-04.htm>
Date posted: 08-31-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT, CONVERTIBLE TO PERMANENT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-NDNY-13 Applications must be received by September 15, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/8-09-ausa-wcc-ace-syracuse.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-NDNY-12 Applications must be received by September 15, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/8-09-immigration-plattsburgh.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT, CONVERTIBLE TO PERMANENT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-NDNY-11 Applications must be received by September 15, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/8-09-ausa-appeals-syracuse.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TWO-YEAR TERM POSITION NORTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-NDNY-10 Applications must be received by September 15, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/8-09-ausa-psc-term.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 09-WDNY-008 Applications will be accepted until the position is filled, with a first cut-off date of Friday, September 11, 2009. Selections may be made from those applications received by September 11, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-wdny-008.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA 09-NFLAUSA-04 Applications must be received by COB (5:00 Eastern) on September 11, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-nflausa-09.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ATTORNEY ADVISOR, GS-14/15 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION OFFICE OF JUSTICE FOR VICTIMS OF OVERSEAS TERRORISM Announcement closes on September 30, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-nsd-attyadv-dc.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE District of Oregon 09-OR-10 Position is open until filled, but no later than September 8, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-or-10.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS Application Process and Deadline Date: The closing date for this announcement is September 10, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/elpasoausaterm281614.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEYS(GS-0905-13/14/15) U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION GANG UNIT WASHINGTON, DC 09-CRM-GSU-033 Deadline date for submission is November 27, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/attygangunitgs131415.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE 09-WDTN-06 To receive consideration for this vacancy, resumes must be received by 5:00 p.m. Central Standard Time on September 8, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-wdtn-06.htm>
Date posted: 08-26-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF DELAWARE Position is open until filled, but applications should be submitted no later than September 18, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/psc-ausa-announcement1.htm>
Date posted: 08-26-2009
 *   VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA WASHINGTON, D.C. Position is open until filled.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/dcattorvacannounceupdated8-09.htm>
Date posted: 08-26-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA 09-EDVA-02 Position is open until filled, but resumes must be received by September 8, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-edva-02.ausa.htm>
Date posted: 08-25-2009
 *   FREEDOM OF INFORMATION/PRIVACY ACT EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY ADVISOR (GS-905-13/14/15) U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION WASHINGTON, D.C. Applications will be accepted until November 24, 2009 with the following cut off dates: the 15th and 30th of every month.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/trialattorney-foiaGS-13-14-15oeo.htm>
Date posted: 08-25-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS OFFICE OF LEGAL PROGRAMS AND POLICY STAFF ATTORNEY-ADVISOR, GS-0905-13/14 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO: 09-EOUSA-53 Open: 08/24/2009 Close: 09/11/2009<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-eousa-53.htm>
Date posted: 08-25-2009

The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information.

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From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 10 17:56:02 2009
From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:56:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] bigamy in California
Message-ID: <394542.90759.qm@web112405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

This question is for those of you who have knowledge regarding a California court's willingness to recognize foreign marriages.
 
Say Pete marries Donna.  He then takes Donna and Amanda to a country where polygamy is legal.  Pete marries Amanda. 
 
All three return to California.  Does a California court have discretion when choosing whether Pete and Amanda's marriage is valid, thereby making Pete's two marriages valid and Pete would not be a bigamist?  Would the court's decision change if Amanda had been kidnapped by Pete and Donna prior to going to the country where polygamy is legal?
 
Mike


      

From JFreeh at nfb.org  Thu Sep 10 23:07:21 2009
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:07:21 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Endorses Google Books
 Settlement Before Congress
Message-ID: <auto-000116430425@mailfront1.g2host.com>



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

cdanielsen at nfb.org


National Federation of the Blind
Endorses Google Books Settlement Before Congress




Urges Justice Department to Support Settlement



Washington, DC (September 10, 2009): The National Federation of the 
Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people 
and the leading advocate for access by the blind to digital 
information, testified before the House Judiciary Committee today 
that the proposed settlement between Google and authors and 
publishers regarding the Google Books project should be 
approved.  The Google Books settlement will make millions of titles 
available to the blind and other Americans with print disabilities, 
providing more access to the printed word than the blind have had in 
all of human history.



Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, 
told the House Judiciary Committee: "The Google settlement is, for 
the blind and many others, the next step in the democratization of 
knowledge.  That process began with the introduction of the printing 
press and then, for the blind, with the invention of Braille.  Now 
technology is available that transcends the traditional limitations 
of both print and Braille, promising to make millions of titles 
available to the blind in Braille or any other format of our 
choice.  The narrow business interests of Google's competitors must 
not be allowed to block Americans who cannot read print from all of 
the opportunities that greater access to written knowledge will make 
available to them.  It is time for the doors of the world's great 
libraries to be opened and welcome to everyone."



The National Federation of the Blind also urged the United States 
Department of Justice, which is reviewing the terms of the 
settlement, to support the agreement.



"The Google Books settlement is a major step forward in advancing the 
civil rights of blind Americans and others who cannot read print 
because it substantially increases our opportunities for education 
and employment," President Maurer said.  "The Justice Department, 
which is tasked with protecting the civil rights of all Americans, 
should respect the agreement of the parties to the settlement and 
allow its access provisions to be fully implemented.  In doing so, 
the government will send a strong message that it values the 
participation of the blind in society and believes that we should 
have access to all of the information to which our sighted friends 
and colleagues have access."



###

From rfarber at jw.com  Fri Sep 11 02:12:46 2009
From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:12:46 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Endorses Google
	Books Settlement Before Congress
In-Reply-To: <auto-000116430425@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000116430425@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <8EA167BDF4483449B67BBE3BFCB648F10D116352@pdc-mail01.jwllp.com>

Does anyone know what the proposed terms of the settlement are? 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Freeh,Jessica
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 6:07 PM
To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Endorses Google
Books Settlement Before Congress



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

cdanielsen at nfb.org


National Federation of the Blind
Endorses Google Books Settlement Before Congress




Urges Justice Department to Support Settlement



Washington, DC (September 10, 2009): The National Federation of the 
Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people 
and the leading advocate for access by the blind to digital 
information, testified before the House Judiciary Committee today 
that the proposed settlement between Google and authors and 
publishers regarding the Google Books project should be 
approved.  The Google Books settlement will make millions of titles 
available to the blind and other Americans with print disabilities, 
providing more access to the printed word than the blind have had in 
all of human history.



Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, 
told the House Judiciary Committee: "The Google settlement is, for 
the blind and many others, the next step in the democratization of 
knowledge.  That process began with the introduction of the printing 
press and then, for the blind, with the invention of Braille.  Now 
technology is available that transcends the traditional limitations 
of both print and Braille, promising to make millions of titles 
available to the blind in Braille or any other format of our 
choice.  The narrow business interests of Google's competitors must 
not be allowed to block Americans who cannot read print from all of 
the opportunities that greater access to written knowledge will make 
available to them.  It is time for the doors of the world's great 
libraries to be opened and welcome to everyone."



The National Federation of the Blind also urged the United States 
Department of Justice, which is reviewing the terms of the 
settlement, to support the agreement.



"The Google Books settlement is a major step forward in advancing the 
civil rights of blind Americans and others who cannot read print 
because it substantially increases our opportunities for education 
and employment," President Maurer said.  "The Justice Department, 
which is tasked with protecting the civil rights of all Americans, 
should respect the agreement of the parties to the settlement and 
allow its access provisions to be fully implemented.  In doing so, 
the government will send a strong message that it values the 
participation of the blind in society and believes that we should 
have access to all of the information to which our sighted friends 
and colleagues have access."



###
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.c
om


From Ronza.Othman at dhs.gov  Fri Sep 11 21:36:46 2009
From: Ronza.Othman at dhs.gov (Othman, Ronza)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 17:36:46 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Weekly DHS Update -- Statement by Secretary
	Napolitano on the 8th Anniversary of the Sept. 11,
	2001 Terrorist Attacks
Message-ID: <C7A83F855C9DFC4794B8695BC4C10E6860F7B4@ZAU1UG-0308.DHSNET.DS1.DHS>

 

 

________________________________

From: civil.liberties at dhs.gov 
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 5:25 PM
To: Othman, Ronza
Subject: Weekly DHS Update -- Statement by Secretary Napolitano on the
8th Anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks
Importance: High

 

 

 

 

 

 

STATEMENT BY SECRETARY NAPOLITANO ON THE EIGHTH ANNIVERSARY OF THE
SEPTEMBER 11, 2001, TERRORIST ATTACKS

 

"On the eighth anniversary of the terrorist attacks of September 11, our
nation pauses to remember a day of sorrow and tragedy, but also a day of
heroism and unity. Eight years later, threats to the United States and
our allies abroad are persistent and evolving. Homeland security remains
a responsibility shared by every individual, community and business.
Together, we must build a culture of resiliency and guard against
complacency, so we are better prepared for terrorist attacks or
disasters of any kind. The President has proclaimed September 11 as a
day of remembrance, and also a day of service. By serving our
communities and our country today and throughout the year, we
commemorate our past while also preparing for our future."

 

 

 

 



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From benkarpilow at gmail.com  Sat Sep 12 17:14:19 2009
From: benkarpilow at gmail.com (Ben Karpilow)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 10:14:19 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Angie, I have a scanner question for you
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><79D10071623E4F6BBB91EA2503648054@Freddy>
	<4aa5a60e.04c2f10a.1552.2aea@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <8E2BB636870244FB911C7D517F0A31B8@benbpgavlhgwwr>

Hello Angie, I'd like to ask you some questions about your duplex scanner. 
Would you contact me off list at

benkarpilow at gmail.com

Thanks, Ben


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


Hi Bill,

Do you have access to a duplex scanner that can scan both sides of the page
at once? I found this to be absolutely essential during law school,
particularly where supplemental materials are concerned. We *ought* to have
immediate access to materials; we don't. If you don't have a scanner, maybe
your school will extend your financial aid package to help you purchase one.
It really does simplify things, and it's something you'd be able to use on
the job.

My scanner and OCR package could process more than 100 pages in 7 minutes,
so it saved me lots and lots of time. If you want more specific info, feel
free to write off-list.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Bill Spiry
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 7:59 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

I agree fully. I've just finished my second week of law school and I'm still
in the chase with many supplemental materials that every one of my fellow
1Ls simply had to drop by the law school café and by. The time I've
continued to have to spend coordinating access to the assignments all of my
peers can simply pull out of their back pack and read for 15 minutes over a
cup of coffee is time I would sorely prefer spending on my studies. Had the
university not assisted in coordinating obtaining my text books
electronically, well suffice it to say that this would have been a
considerably more challenging entrance. Its tricky enough drinking from a
fire hose when you've also got to make sure the hydrant stays open so the
flow doesn't unexpectedly dry up.
I've learned there is nothing noble or heroic about toughing it out with the
odds already against you, particularly when the technology and potential
exists to level the playing field. This isn't about learning how to do
things the hard way, it's about learning the law, or whatever discipline one
studies, on a equal footing with our peers. We face plenty of hurdles every
day that we do need to do differently and that take more effort. When there
is a way to level the field it ought to be leveled.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Angie Matney
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:06 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Hello Chhuck,

Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
"special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
book store, buy a book, and then read it?

It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books when
the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own books
in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
going to be distributed indiscriminantly.

To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies from
the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
publishers to meet my needs for etexts.

My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I could
do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make any

difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be doing
this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
these processes.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact of
> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
> know
> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
> push
> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>
> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
> an
> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
> way
> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really almost
> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
> because of my loss of sight.
>
> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>
> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>
> It was great reading your comments on this.
>
> William
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register
> as
>
> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use
> of
>
> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
> supervision
>
> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in

> a
>
> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
> to
> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
> otherwise
>
> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
> services
>
> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
> faculty
> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
> employment
>
> setting.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From
>>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>August 28, 2009
>>>
>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this
>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind,
>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>
>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>copyrights.
>>>
>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>texts,
>
>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>can
>
>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>have
>
>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>its
>
>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format
>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>
>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>can
>
>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often
>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of
>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that
>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>have
>
>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>and
>
>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>that
>
>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>delays, she says.
>>>
>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>
>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>
>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>the
>
>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration,
>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>
>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>scan
>
>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>
>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to
>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently
>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>same
>
>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the
>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>says.
>>>
>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing
>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>
>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>books
>
>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>us."
>>>
>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is
>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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From jazenmazen at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 12 18:08:39 2009
From: jazenmazen at yahoo.com (Mazen)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 14:08:39 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
	<83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>
Message-ID: <005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com>

I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here. 

How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the real
world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do my
reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't read
casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.

M~


-----Original Message-----
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I was 
in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the 
same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called 
scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced through

RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In 
many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in a

timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not 
have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the 
odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder 
to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that some

have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see the

judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting 
briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in some

states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services 
offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books 
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies 
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I 
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make 
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be 
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
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>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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al.net 






From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Sep 13 06:54:07 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:54:07 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>
	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com>
Message-ID: <26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>

The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being 
required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college and 
are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges 
providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is who 
is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to 
abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials 
electronically or otherwise.

Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>
> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the 
> real
> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do my
> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't read
> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>
> M~
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I 
> was
> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced 
> through
>
> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in 
> a
>
> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the
> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder
> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that 
> some
>
> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see 
> the
>
> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in 
> some
>
> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> Hello Chhuck,
>>
>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>
>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>> when
>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>> books
>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
>> not
>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>
>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>> from
>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>
>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
>> also
>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>> could
>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But 
>> I
>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>> any
>>
>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>> doing
>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>> these processes.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>> of
>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>> know
>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>> push
>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>
>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>>> an
>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>>> way
>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>> almost
>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>
>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>
>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
>>> be
>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>
>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>>> disabled
>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>>> register
>>> as
>>>
>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>>> use
>>> of
>>>
>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>> supervision
>>>
>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>> in
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>>> that
>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>>> to
>>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>> otherwise
>>>
>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>> services
>>>
>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>> faculty
>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>> employment
>>>
>>> setting.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>this
>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>blind,
>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>>designed
>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>
>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>texts,
>>>
>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>its
>>>
>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>format
>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>
>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>often
>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>of
>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>that
>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>and
>>>
>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>>for
>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>that
>>>
>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>
>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>>the
>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>
>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>the
>>>
>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>registration,
>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>scan
>>>
>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>to
>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>Currently
>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>same
>>>
>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>>>>at
>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>>they
>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>the
>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>>>>he
>>>>>says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>billing
>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>books
>>>
>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>us."
>>>>>
>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>is
>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 07:28:51 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 02:28:51 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com>
	<26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
Message-ID: <013e01ca3443$db62d120$92287360$@com>

Wow, wow, wow....

I think both sides of this issue keep repeating the same thing and it seems
as though neither side is giving way of their thoughts.  

May I sweetly suggest that we discuss something else?

I think at this juncture, everyone who has commented knows the thoughts that
each holds regarding this issue.

Hope this doesn't offend anyone at all, but the subject line of this string
has grown cold.

Happy Sunday!

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 1:54 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being 
required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college and

are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges 
providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is who

is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to 
abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials 
electronically or otherwise.

Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>
> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the 
> real
> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do my
> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't read
> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>
> M~
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I 
> was
> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced 
> through
>
> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in

> a
>
> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the
> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder
> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that 
> some
>
> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see 
> the
>
> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in 
> some
>
> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> Hello Chhuck,
>>
>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>
>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>> when
>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>> books
>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
>> not
>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>
>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>> from
>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>
>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
>> also
>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>> could
>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But 
>> I
>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>> any
>>
>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>> doing
>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>> these processes.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>> of
>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>> know
>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>> push
>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>
>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>>> an
>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>>> way
>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>> almost
>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>
>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>
>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
>>> be
>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>
>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>>> disabled
>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>>> register
>>> as
>>>
>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>>> use
>>> of
>>>
>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>> supervision
>>>
>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>> in
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>>> that
>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>>> to
>>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>> otherwise
>>>
>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>> services
>>>
>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>> faculty
>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>> employment
>>>
>>> setting.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>this
>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>blind,
>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>>designed
>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>
>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>texts,
>>>
>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>its
>>>
>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>format
>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>
>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>often
>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>of
>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>that
>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>and
>>>
>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>>for
>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>that
>>>
>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>
>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>>the
>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>
>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>the
>>>
>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>registration,
>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>scan
>>>
>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>to
>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>Currently
>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>same
>>>
>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>>>>at
>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>>they
>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>the
>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>>>>he
>>>>>says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>billing
>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>books
>>>
>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>us."
>>>>>
>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>is
>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>>> al.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
>>> il.com
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature
>>> database 4397 (20090905) __________
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>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>>> signature
>>> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>>> blindlaw mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
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>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
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>> blindlaw:
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>
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> al.net
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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al.net 


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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 10:08:47 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 06:08:47 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com>
	<26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
Message-ID: <4aacc4aa.85c2f10a.5b99.ffffc132@mx.google.com>

Chuck,

Are students being required to use these particular materials to study? I
did not see that in the article that was posted to  the list. Again, I
believe this may be in violation of the aDA, which gives me the right to
refuse an accommodation that I don't want. To be clear, I am not stating
that the ADA says I am entitled to whatever accommodation I unilaterally
select; I'm saying that if I want no accommodation at all, I don't have to
be accommodated. If I want to scan my own books with absolutely no help from
the school, I can do that. There might be a problem if the school requires I
use a copy they have provided rduring an open-book exam. But I've never
heard of something like this.

Angie



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 2:54 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being 
required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college and

are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges 
providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is who

is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to 
abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials 
electronically or otherwise.

Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>
> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the 
> real
> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do my
> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't read
> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>
> M~
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I 
> was
> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced 
> through
>
> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in

> a
>
> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the
> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder
> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that 
> some
>
> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see 
> the
>
> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in 
> some
>
> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> Hello Chhuck,
>>
>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>
>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>> when
>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>> books
>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
>> not
>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>
>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>> from
>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>
>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
>> also
>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>> could
>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But 
>> I
>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>> any
>>
>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>> doing
>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>> these processes.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>> of
>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>> know
>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>> push
>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>
>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>>> an
>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>>> way
>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>> almost
>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>
>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>
>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
>>> be
>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>
>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>>> disabled
>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>>> register
>>> as
>>>
>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>>> use
>>> of
>>>
>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>> supervision
>>>
>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>> in
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>>> that
>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>>> to
>>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>> otherwise
>>>
>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>> services
>>>
>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>> faculty
>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>> employment
>>>
>>> setting.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>this
>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>blind,
>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>>designed
>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>
>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>texts,
>>>
>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>its
>>>
>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>format
>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>
>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>often
>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>of
>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>that
>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>and
>>>
>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>>for
>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>that
>>>
>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>
>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>>the
>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>
>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>the
>>>
>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>registration,
>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>scan
>>>
>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>to
>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>Currently
>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>same
>>>
>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>>>>at
>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>>they
>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>the
>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>>>>he
>>>>>says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>billing
>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>books
>>>
>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>us."
>>>>>
>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>is
>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>>> al.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
>>> il.com
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature
>>> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
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>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
>> il.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
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From bspiry at comcast.net  Sun Sep 13 13:41:30 2009
From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 06:41:30 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <013e01ca3443$db62d120$92287360$@com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
	<013e01ca3443$db62d120$92287360$@com>
Message-ID: <C44B0BCF41164FE0A9192CB6934730B9@Freddy>

Agreed, move on.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:29 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Wow, wow, wow....

I think both sides of this issue keep repeating the same thing and it seems
as though neither side is giving way of their thoughts.  

May I sweetly suggest that we discuss something else?

I think at this juncture, everyone who has commented knows the thoughts that
each holds regarding this issue.

Hope this doesn't offend anyone at all, but the subject line of this string
has grown cold.

Happy Sunday!

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 1:54 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being 
required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college and

are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges 
providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is who

is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to 
abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials 
electronically or otherwise.

Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>
> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the 
> real
> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do my
> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't read
> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>
> M~
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I 
> was
> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced 
> through
>
> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in

> a
>
> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the
> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder
> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that 
> some
>
> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see 
> the
>
> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in 
> some
>
> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> Hello Chhuck,
>>
>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>
>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>> when
>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>> books
>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
>> not
>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>
>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>> from
>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>
>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
>> also
>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>> could
>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But 
>> I
>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>> any
>>
>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>> doing
>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>> these processes.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>> of
>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>> know
>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>> push
>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>
>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>>> an
>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>>> way
>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>> almost
>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>
>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>
>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
>>> be
>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>
>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>>> disabled
>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>>> register
>>> as
>>>
>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>>> use
>>> of
>>>
>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>> supervision
>>>
>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>> in
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>>> that
>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>>> to
>>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>> otherwise
>>>
>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>> services
>>>
>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>> faculty
>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>> employment
>>>
>>> setting.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>this
>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>blind,
>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>>designed
>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>
>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>texts,
>>>
>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>its
>>>
>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>format
>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>
>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>often
>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>of
>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>that
>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>and
>>>
>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>>for
>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>that
>>>
>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>
>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>>the
>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>
>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>the
>>>
>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>registration,
>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>scan
>>>
>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>to
>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>Currently
>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>same
>>>
>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>>>>at
>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>>they
>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>the
>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>>>>he
>>>>>says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>billing
>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>books
>>>
>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>us."
>>>>>
>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>is
>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>
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From b75205 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 15:05:04 2009
From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:05:04 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>
	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
	<BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
	<83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>
	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com>
	<26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
Message-ID: <fe5b78280909130805t75716d45wb9acfcf989fab150@mail.gmail.com>

The other problem here is that what people deem to be accessible is not
actually accessible.  Just because a document or a webpage complies with
section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act does not make it actually accessible
to the blind.  It is infuriating when you deal with people who insist that
they followed all the rules and that the documents are certified even by the
Access Board as being accessible to the blind using the legal definition of
accessibility and yet when you actually try to use it, it is useless.

This separation between the law and reality is the problem.

James Pepper

From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Sep 13 16:20:00 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 09:20:00 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <4aacc4aa.85c2f10a.5b99.ffffc132@mx.google.com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
	<4aacc4aa.85c2f10a.5b99.ffffc132@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <AD228EB4623E4DE38A4241F0046CA4E0@spike>

while it was not in the particular article there has been some instances 
that I am aware of where students were required to use the resources of the 
college although this is an ADA violation. Some colleges attempt students 
from working independently with regard to textbooks and allowing the student 
to work out individual accommodations with faculty that are specific to 
their needs. .
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Chuck,
>
> Are students being required to use these particular materials to study? I
> did not see that in the article that was posted to  the list. Again, I
> believe this may be in violation of the aDA, which gives me the right to
> refuse an accommodation that I don't want. To be clear, I am not stating
> that the ADA says I am entitled to whatever accommodation I unilaterally
> select; I'm saying that if I want no accommodation at all, I don't have to
> be accommodated. If I want to scan my own books with absolutely no help 
> from
> the school, I can do that. There might be a problem if the school requires 
> I
> use a copy they have provided rduring an open-book exam. But I've never
> heard of something like this.
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 2:54 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being
> required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college 
> and
>
> are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges
> providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is 
> who
>
> is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to
> abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials
> electronically or otherwise.
>
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>>
>> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
>> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
>> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
>> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the
>> real
>> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do 
>> my
>> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't 
>> read
>> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
>> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
>> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>>
>> M~
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I
>> was
>> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
>> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
>> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced
>> through
>>
>> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
>> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
>> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment 
>> the
>> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit 
>> harder
>> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that
>> some
>>
>> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see
>> the
>>
>> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
>> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in
>> some
>>
>> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
>> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>> Hello Chhuck,
>>>
>>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper 
>>> fee.
>>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to 
>>> the
>>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>>
>>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>>> when
>>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>>> books
>>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going 
>>> to
>>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are
>>> not
>>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>>
>>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how 
>>> I
>>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>>> from
>>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>>
>>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I
>>> also
>>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>>> could
>>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But
>>> I
>>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>>
>>> Angie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>>> any
>>>
>>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
>>> with
>>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>>> doing
>>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
>>> neither
>>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>>> these processes.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>>> of
>>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>>> know
>>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>>> push
>>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>>>> make
>>>> an
>>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
>>>> the
>>>> way
>>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>>> almost
>>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
>>>> now
>>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>>
>>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should
>>>> be
>>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>>
>>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>>
>>>> William
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>>> Students
>>>>
>>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that
>>>> disabled
>>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to
>>>> register
>>>> as
>>>>
>>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but 
>>>> I
>>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for
>>>> use
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>>> supervision
>>>>
>>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>>>> of
>>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>>> in
>>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring
>>>> that
>>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>>>> learning
>>>> to
>>>> find and create available resources and development of increased 
>>>> problem
>>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>>> services
>>>>
>>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>>>> of
>>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>>> faculty
>>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>>> employment
>>>>
>>>> setting.
>>>> Chuck
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>>> Students
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>>blind,
>>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is
>>>>>>designed
>>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>>>>are
>>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>>texts,
>>>>
>>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>>can
>>>>
>>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>>its
>>>>
>>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>>format
>>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>>can
>>>>
>>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>>often
>>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>>>with
>>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>>registration,
>>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>>>process
>>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>>scan
>>>>
>>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>>Currently
>>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>>same
>>>>
>>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format,
>>>>>>they
>>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves,
>>>>>>he
>>>>>>says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>>billing
>>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>>books
>>>>
>>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>>us."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>>
>>>>
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From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 16:31:47 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:31:47 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <AD228EB4623E4DE38A4241F0046CA4E0@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>	<4aacc4aa.85c2f10a.5b99.ffffc132@mx.google.com>
	<AD228EB4623E4DE38A4241F0046CA4E0@spike>
Message-ID: <019501ca348f$b42742c0$1c75c840$@com>

People, can we please take this off-list?

Just a suggestion.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 11:20 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

while it was not in the particular article there has been some instances 
that I am aware of where students were required to use the resources of the 
college although this is an ADA violation. Some colleges attempt students 
from working independently with regard to textbooks and allowing the student

to work out individual accommodations with faculty that are specific to 
their needs. .
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Chuck,
>
> Are students being required to use these particular materials to study? I
> did not see that in the article that was posted to  the list. Again, I
> believe this may be in violation of the aDA, which gives me the right to
> refuse an accommodation that I don't want. To be clear, I am not stating
> that the ADA says I am entitled to whatever accommodation I unilaterally
> select; I'm saying that if I want no accommodation at all, I don't have to
> be accommodated. If I want to scan my own books with absolutely no help 
> from
> the school, I can do that. There might be a problem if the school requires

> I
> use a copy they have provided rduring an open-book exam. But I've never
> heard of something like this.
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 2:54 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being
> required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college 
> and
>
> are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges
> providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is 
> who
>
> is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to
> abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials
> electronically or otherwise.
>
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>>
>> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
>> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
>> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
>> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the
>> real
>> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do 
>> my
>> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't 
>> read
>> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
>> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
>> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>>
>> M~
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I
>> was
>> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
>> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
>> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced
>> through
>>
>> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
>> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
>> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment 
>> the
>> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit 
>> harder
>> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that
>> some
>>
>> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see
>> the
>>
>> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
>> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in
>> some
>>
>> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
>> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>> Hello Chhuck,
>>>
>>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper 
>>> fee.
>>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to 
>>> the
>>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>>
>>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>>> when
>>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>>> books
>>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going 
>>> to
>>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are
>>> not
>>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>>
>>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how 
>>> I
>>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>>> from
>>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>>
>>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I
>>> also
>>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>>> could
>>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But
>>> I
>>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>>
>>> Angie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>>> any
>>>
>>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
>>> with
>>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>>> doing
>>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
>>> neither
>>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>>> these processes.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>>> of
>>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>>> know
>>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>>> push
>>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>>>> make
>>>> an
>>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
>>>> the
>>>> way
>>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>>> almost
>>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
>>>> now
>>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>>
>>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should
>>>> be
>>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>>
>>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>>
>>>> William
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>>> Students
>>>>
>>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that
>>>> disabled
>>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to
>>>> register
>>>> as
>>>>
>>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but 
>>>> I
>>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for
>>>> use
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>>> supervision
>>>>
>>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>>>> of
>>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>>> in
>>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring
>>>> that
>>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>>>> learning
>>>> to
>>>> find and create available resources and development of increased 
>>>> problem
>>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>>> services
>>>>
>>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>>>> of
>>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>>> faculty
>>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>>> employment
>>>>
>>>> setting.
>>>> Chuck
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>>> Students
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>>blind,
>>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is
>>>>>>designed
>>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>>>>are
>>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>>texts,
>>>>
>>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>>can
>>>>
>>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>>its
>>>>
>>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>>format
>>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>>can
>>>>
>>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>>often
>>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>>>with
>>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>>registration,
>>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>>>process
>>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>>scan
>>>>
>>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>>Currently
>>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>>same
>>>>
>>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format,
>>>>>>they
>>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves,
>>>>>>he
>>>>>>says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>>billing
>>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>>books
>>>>
>>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>>us."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindlaw mailing list
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindlaw:
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>>
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>>>> al.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Sep 13 16:53:58 2009
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 09:53:58 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike><004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike><005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
	<fe5b78280909130805t75716d45wb9acfcf989fab150@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C2B411061EC45FFA2D6212300D9734D@owner96190708e>

You're absolutely right. However, there's an additional wrinkle: people 
keep innovating and coming up with technologies and appearances of 
documents and/or web pages that screen reading technology can make 
neither hide nor hair of.

I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that ultimately, to legislate 
true accessibility, one must mandate that technology stays fixed.

Ain't a-gonna happen!

Mike Freeman, President
NFB of Washington

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Pepper" <b75205 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


The other problem here is that what people deem to be accessible is not
actually accessible.  Just because a document or a webpage complies with
section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act does not make it actually 
accessible
to the blind.  It is infuriating when you deal with people who insist 
that
they followed all the rules and that the documents are certified even by 
the
Access Board as being accessible to the blind using the legal definition 
of
accessibility and yet when you actually try to use it, it is useless.

This separation between the law and reality is the problem.

James Pepper
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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 18:05:49 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:05:49 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <019501ca348f$b42742c0$1c75c840$@com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>	<4aacc4aa.85c2f10a.5b99.ffffc132@mx.google.com>	<AD228EB4623E4DE38A4241F0046CA4E0@spike>
	<019501ca348f$b42742c0$1c75c840$@com>
Message-ID: <4aad3478.c5c2f10a.4f27.ffffc008@mx.google.com>

While the mechanics of obtaining books may not be on topic, whether or not
colleges are violating the ADA by requiring students to obtain copies of
books that the college produces does seem to be on-topic, under my
understanding of the list rules.

Chuck: Then it seems we need to work on educating college administrators,
without worrying about possible negative effects of the database mentioned
in that article. I don't think we, as an organization, can fight for access
to the Kindle ("Same books, same price, same time") and condemn other
efforts to make textbooks accessible. This doesn't mean we can't also
encourage students to scan their own books.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:32 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

People, can we please take this off-list?

Just a suggestion.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 11:20 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

while it was not in the particular article there has been some instances 
that I am aware of where students were required to use the resources of the 
college although this is an ADA violation. Some colleges attempt students 
from working independently with regard to textbooks and allowing the student

to work out individual accommodations with faculty that are specific to 
their needs. .
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Chuck,
>
> Are students being required to use these particular materials to study? I
> did not see that in the article that was posted to  the list. Again, I
> believe this may be in violation of the aDA, which gives me the right to
> refuse an accommodation that I don't want. To be clear, I am not stating
> that the ADA says I am entitled to whatever accommodation I unilaterally
> select; I'm saying that if I want no accommodation at all, I don't have to
> be accommodated. If I want to scan my own books with absolutely no help 
> from
> the school, I can do that. There might be a problem if the school requires

> I
> use a copy they have provided rduring an open-book exam. But I've never
> heard of something like this.
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 2:54 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being
> required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college 
> and
>
> are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges
> providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is 
> who
>
> is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to
> abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials
> electronically or otherwise.
>
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>>
>> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
>> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
>> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
>> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the
>> real
>> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do 
>> my
>> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't 
>> read
>> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
>> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
>> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>>
>> M~
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I
>> was
>> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
>> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
>> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced
>> through
>>
>> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
>> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
>> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment 
>> the
>> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit 
>> harder
>> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that
>> some
>>
>> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see
>> the
>>
>> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
>> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in
>> some
>>
>> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
>> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>> Hello Chhuck,
>>>
>>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper 
>>> fee.
>>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to 
>>> the
>>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>>
>>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>>> when
>>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>>> books
>>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going 
>>> to
>>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are
>>> not
>>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>>
>>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how 
>>> I
>>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>>> from
>>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>>
>>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I
>>> also
>>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>>> could
>>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But
>>> I
>>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>>
>>> Angie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>>> any
>>>
>>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
>>> with
>>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>>> doing
>>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
>>> neither
>>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>>> these processes.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>>> of
>>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>>> know
>>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>>> push
>>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>>>> make
>>>> an
>>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
>>>> the
>>>> way
>>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>>> almost
>>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
>>>> now
>>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>>
>>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should
>>>> be
>>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>>
>>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>>
>>>> William
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>>> Students
>>>>
>>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that
>>>> disabled
>>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to
>>>> register
>>>> as
>>>>
>>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but 
>>>> I
>>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for
>>>> use
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>>> supervision
>>>>
>>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>>>> of
>>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>>> in
>>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring
>>>> that
>>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>>>> learning
>>>> to
>>>> find and create available resources and development of increased 
>>>> problem
>>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>>> services
>>>>
>>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>>>> of
>>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>>> faculty
>>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>>> employment
>>>>
>>>> setting.
>>>> Chuck
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>>> Students
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>>blind,
>>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is
>>>>>>designed
>>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>>>>are
>>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>>texts,
>>>>
>>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>>can
>>>>
>>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>>its
>>>>
>>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>>format
>>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>>can
>>>>
>>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>>often
>>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>>>with
>>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>>registration,
>>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>>>process
>>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>>scan
>>>>
>>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>>Currently
>>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>>same
>>>>
>>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format,
>>>>>>they
>>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves,
>>>>>>he
>>>>>>says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>>billing
>>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>>books
>>>>
>>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>>us."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 19:00:29 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:00:29 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
Message-ID: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>

Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local and/or
state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
accessible crosswalks)?  I have done some research but want to ask those who
may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
resources.

 

Thanks for any help.

 

William


From jazenmazen at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 13 19:38:39 2009
From: jazenmazen at yahoo.com (Mazen)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 15:38:39 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible Technology
In-Reply-To: <7C2B411061EC45FFA2D6212300D9734D@owner96190708e>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike><004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike><005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>	<fe5b78280909130805t75716d45wb9acfcf989fab150@mail.gmail.com>
	<7C2B411061EC45FFA2D6212300D9734D@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <009101ca34a9$cb3c8960$61b59c20$@com>

This is a very interesting question. Can there be any kind of regulation
that would make emerging consumer technologies accessible? I would posit
that the standard should require the incorporation of accessible design in
technology where doing so is not unduly burdensome. In other words, where
the cost of doing so is not prohibitive.  I think adopting such a regulation
would actually cost businesses far less than figuring out how to make
something accessible after the design is complete. 

This could include an access design assessment, analogous to an
environmental impact statement, that can be part of the development process.


A good example of where this kind of regulation would have made a difference
is in Ipods. it took apple nearly a decade to come out with an Ipod that has
voiceover. Is there any reason why this shouldn't have been part of the
original design?  

Thoughts?

M~


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Freeman [mailto:k7uij at panix.com] 
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:54 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

You're absolutely right. However, there's an additional wrinkle: people 
keep innovating and coming up with technologies and appearances of 
documents and/or web pages that screen reading technology can make 
neither hide nor hair of.

I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that ultimately, to legislate 
true accessibility, one must mandate that technology stays fixed.

Ain't a-gonna happen!

Mike Freeman, President
NFB of Washington

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Pepper" <b75205 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


The other problem here is that what people deem to be accessible is not
actually accessible.  Just because a document or a webpage complies with
section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act does not make it actually 
accessible
to the blind.  It is infuriating when you deal with people who insist 
that
they followed all the rules and that the documents are certified even by 
the
Access Board as being accessible to the blind using the legal definition 
of
accessibility and yet when you actually try to use it, it is useless.

This separation between the law and reality is the problem.

James Pepper
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com






From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 13 22:02:16 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:02:16 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
In-Reply-To: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
References: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W1DDFA96810F1E20543FD2CFE50@phx.gbl>


Wlliam, its Tim, email me at my work email. There is a group doing a basic advocacy training a week fro Monday, the 21st. One of the things covered will be dealing with elected officials. You could talk your VR Counselor into paying for transportation to the training if you needed. It will be here in the Houston area. If you email me at my work email I can forward you the information on the training and how to contact the group about the training.

 

Tim timothy.shaw at dars.state.tx.us
 
> From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:00:29 -0500
> Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
> 
> Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local and/or
> state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
> accessible crosswalks)? I have done some research but want to ask those who
> may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
> resources.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> 
> 
> William
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/

From fwlopez at comcast.net  Sun Sep 13 22:10:20 2009
From: fwlopez at comcast.net (Fred Wright Lopez)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 15:10:20 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
In-Reply-To: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
References: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
Message-ID: <D9751EC7-FA5B-4BD5-AC8B-DC518B0FA801@comcast.net>

William
Your state and county of residence would likely determine your  
approach in this matter.   I reside in a suburb near san Francisco,  
CA.  For several years I have been involved in transit issues (audible  
signal lights, curb ramp cutouts, tactile dome mats, smart crosswalks,  
paratransit and fixed route services).   For a few years I sat as my  
city's representative on a county transportation advisory committee.    
Waht I've taken away from all of this is as follows:   The State has  
retains jurisdictional responsibility for State operated bridges,  
highways and freeways in California.   For historical reasons, many  
former highways particularly in urban areas have become local streets  
or boulevards.   However, the State retains ownership and therefore  
all maintenance responsibility including that for any signal systems  
or crosswalks.   All other streets, roads and siganl systems are the  
responsibility of the local City authority (or if in an unincorporated  
area, the local County).  In each instance the Public Works Department  
has authority for maintenance of local roads, signal systems and  
crosswalks.  At the State level, the California Department of  
Transportation has the corresponding responsibility for state operated  
highways, streets, signal systems and corsswalks.

It is my understanding that every state and by extension every county  
and city that is a recipient of Federal Transportation Highway funds  
is required to develope Short and Long Term Transportation Plans.   In  
California the short range plans are five years and the long range  
plans are twenty years.   These plans must also be modified and  
updated in accordance with changed circumstances.   Most large urban  
areas have Metropolitan Transportation Agencies, which serve as  
repositories for all Transportation Plans form local county  
transportation agencies.   The Federal Highway Transportation Agency  
has a web site with extensive ADA compliance information.   In sum,  
State, County and local municipalities must assure that their streets,  
roads and pedestrian crossings are complaint with the Americans with  
Disabilities Act...   For at least   a decade or two, these  
jurisdictions have been required to complete an inventory of streets,  
roads and pedestrian corssing that do or do not meet ADA compliance  
standards and specify plans for correction.

How individual jurisdictions go about this ADA compliance is both at  
times a mystery and baffling.  Many jurisdictions through responding  
to local pressure have undertaken extensive ADA correctie actions.    
San Francisco, Berkeley and Oakland for example have for decades  
installed and maintained audible signal systems, curb cutouts and  
other other ADA complaint measures.  Yet smaller jurisdictions simply  
ignore these ADA requirements or continually postpone them citing  
financial constrains.  Absent local citizen pressure or the filing of  
a legal complaint for ADA non compliance no corrective action is taken.

With regard to corsswalks, if it is a local issue, your best coruse of  
action is to approach your local public works department in your city  
and aks for the short or long term transit plan and for any vehicle or  
pedestrain flow studies that pertain to said crosswalk or lack there  
of.   In my experience, the engineers at these public works  
departments are friendly and generally aware that many of their  
streets are non ADA compliant but will tell you that the problem is  
MONEY and PRIORITIES.   If its a state road, the State Transportation  
Agency will have simailr data on the lcoal road or intersection of  
concern to you.

If you are trying to get a crosswalk, a stop sign or a city signal  
light (hopefully one that is audible) that you should only go to your  
local city council person or state representative after you have done  
your research, spoken with the traffic engineers in your city, county  
or State Transportation agency.   The best success I have had locally  
is when I have been abel to build coalitions with seniors, the  
disabled, local schools and parents and churches.

Hope this is of some help.


Fred W. Lopez

On Sep 13, 2009, at 12:00 PM, WB wrote:

> Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local  
> and/or
> state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
> accessible crosswalks)?  I have done some research but want to ask  
> those who
> may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
> resources.
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> William
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fwlopez%40comcast.net



From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Sep 13 22:37:59 2009
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 15:37:59 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible Technology
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike><004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike><005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>	<fe5b78280909130805t75716d45wb9acfcf989fab150@mail.gmail.com><7C2B411061EC45FFA2D6212300D9734D@owner96190708e>
	<009101ca34a9$cb3c8960$61b59c20$@com>
Message-ID: <A80630746157473D947446EC9A93F42D@owner96190708e>

Believe me: there'd be arguments as to what accessibility actually 
means, whether any design was or was not accessible and on and on ad 
nauseum. "Accessibility" is best understood in the negative, that is, we 
all know something is *not* accessible. It is far less easy to define 
when something truly is accessible in that this requires us to assess 
user competence with accessibility tools as well as whether any given 
task can be made easily accessible without disrupting the existing 
technology. Example: the iPhone accessible interface is absolutely 
different from the regular interface. IN the case of something like 
making an insulin pump fully accessible, much care and thought needs to 
go into such things as how to verbally make accesssible trend graphs 
etc. (Same for  continuous bg monitors.)

Anyway, I think accessibility is sort of like the late Potter Stewart's 
definition of porn: I can't define it but I know it when I see it!

Mike Freeman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:38 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible Technology


This is a very interesting question. Can there be any kind of regulation
that would make emerging consumer technologies accessible? I would posit
that the standard should require the incorporation of accessible design 
in
technology where doing so is not unduly burdensome. In other words, 
where
the cost of doing so is not prohibitive.  I think adopting such a 
regulation
would actually cost businesses far less than figuring out how to make
something accessible after the design is complete.

This could include an access design assessment, analogous to an
environmental impact statement, that can be part of the development 
process.


A good example of where this kind of regulation would have made a 
difference
is in Ipods. it took apple nearly a decade to come out with an Ipod that 
has
voiceover. Is there any reason why this shouldn't have been part of the
original design?

Thoughts?

M~


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Freeman [mailto:k7uij at panix.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:54 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

You're absolutely right. However, there's an additional wrinkle: people
keep innovating and coming up with technologies and appearances of
documents and/or web pages that screen reading technology can make
neither hide nor hair of.

I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that ultimately, to legislate
true accessibility, one must mandate that technology stays fixed.

Ain't a-gonna happen!

Mike Freeman, President
NFB of Washington

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Pepper" <b75205 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


The other problem here is that what people deem to be accessible is not
actually accessible.  Just because a document or a webpage complies with
section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act does not make it actually
accessible
to the blind.  It is infuriating when you deal with people who insist
that
they followed all the rules and that the documents are certified even by
the
Access Board as being accessible to the blind using the legal definition
of
accessibility and yet when you actually try to use it, it is useless.

This separation between the law and reality is the problem.

James Pepper
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com





_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com



From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 23:18:13 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:18:13 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
In-Reply-To: <D9751EC7-FA5B-4BD5-AC8B-DC518B0FA801@comcast.net>
References: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
	<D9751EC7-FA5B-4BD5-AC8B-DC518B0FA801@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <01c401ca34c8$7c559ed0$7500dc70$@com>

Fred,

That was a great help!  You gave me a few other ideas that I hadn't thought
of...Thanks so much!  You're appreciated.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Wright Lopez
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 5:10 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals

William
Your state and county of residence would likely determine your  
approach in this matter.   I reside in a suburb near san Francisco,  
CA.  For several years I have been involved in transit issues (audible  
signal lights, curb ramp cutouts, tactile dome mats, smart crosswalks,  
paratransit and fixed route services).   For a few years I sat as my  
city's representative on a county transportation advisory committee.    
Waht I've taken away from all of this is as follows:   The State has  
retains jurisdictional responsibility for State operated bridges,  
highways and freeways in California.   For historical reasons, many  
former highways particularly in urban areas have become local streets  
or boulevards.   However, the State retains ownership and therefore  
all maintenance responsibility including that for any signal systems  
or crosswalks.   All other streets, roads and siganl systems are the  
responsibility of the local City authority (or if in an unincorporated  
area, the local County).  In each instance the Public Works Department  
has authority for maintenance of local roads, signal systems and  
crosswalks.  At the State level, the California Department of  
Transportation has the corresponding responsibility for state operated  
highways, streets, signal systems and corsswalks.

It is my understanding that every state and by extension every county  
and city that is a recipient of Federal Transportation Highway funds  
is required to develope Short and Long Term Transportation Plans.   In  
California the short range plans are five years and the long range  
plans are twenty years.   These plans must also be modified and  
updated in accordance with changed circumstances.   Most large urban  
areas have Metropolitan Transportation Agencies, which serve as  
repositories for all Transportation Plans form local county  
transportation agencies.   The Federal Highway Transportation Agency  
has a web site with extensive ADA compliance information.   In sum,  
State, County and local municipalities must assure that their streets,  
roads and pedestrian crossings are complaint with the Americans with  
Disabilities Act...   For at least   a decade or two, these  
jurisdictions have been required to complete an inventory of streets,  
roads and pedestrian corssing that do or do not meet ADA compliance  
standards and specify plans for correction.

How individual jurisdictions go about this ADA compliance is both at  
times a mystery and baffling.  Many jurisdictions through responding  
to local pressure have undertaken extensive ADA correctie actions.    
San Francisco, Berkeley and Oakland for example have for decades  
installed and maintained audible signal systems, curb cutouts and  
other other ADA complaint measures.  Yet smaller jurisdictions simply  
ignore these ADA requirements or continually postpone them citing  
financial constrains.  Absent local citizen pressure or the filing of  
a legal complaint for ADA non compliance no corrective action is taken.

With regard to corsswalks, if it is a local issue, your best coruse of  
action is to approach your local public works department in your city  
and aks for the short or long term transit plan and for any vehicle or  
pedestrain flow studies that pertain to said crosswalk or lack there  
of.   In my experience, the engineers at these public works  
departments are friendly and generally aware that many of their  
streets are non ADA compliant but will tell you that the problem is  
MONEY and PRIORITIES.   If its a state road, the State Transportation  
Agency will have simailr data on the lcoal road or intersection of  
concern to you.

If you are trying to get a crosswalk, a stop sign or a city signal  
light (hopefully one that is audible) that you should only go to your  
local city council person or state representative after you have done  
your research, spoken with the traffic engineers in your city, county  
or State Transportation agency.   The best success I have had locally  
is when I have been abel to build coalitions with seniors, the  
disabled, local schools and parents and churches.

Hope this is of some help.


Fred W. Lopez

On Sep 13, 2009, at 12:00 PM, WB wrote:

> Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local  
> and/or
> state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
> accessible crosswalks)?  I have done some research but want to ask  
> those who
> may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
> resources.
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> William
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fwlopez%40comcast.
net


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
il.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 23:23:22 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:23:22 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W1DDFA96810F1E20543FD2CFE50@phx.gbl>
References: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
	<BAY139-W1DDFA96810F1E20543FD2CFE50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <01c601ca34c9$33818ec0$9a84ac40$@com>

Thanks Tim.  I just shot you an e-mail.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tim Shaw
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 5:02 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals


Wlliam, its Tim, email me at my work email. There is a group doing a basic
advocacy training a week fro Monday, the 21st. One of the things covered
will be dealing with elected officials. You could talk your VR Counselor
into paying for transportation to the training if you needed. It will be
here in the Houston area. If you email me at my work email I can forward you
the information on the training and how to contact the group about the
training.

 

Tim timothy.shaw at dars.state.tx.us
 
> From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:00:29 -0500
> Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
> 
> Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local
and/or
> state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
> accessible crosswalks)? I have done some research but want to ask those
who
> may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
> resources.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> 
> 
> William
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot
mail.com

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
il.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 14 05:52:59 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:52:59 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
In-Reply-To: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
References: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
Message-ID: <4758FD7C22C64B07A265DDF92117994B@spike>

I have done quite a bit of work with legislators and city councils on 
various topics. You can contact me of list by email or by phone to discuss 
this.
Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals


> Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local 
> and/or
> state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
> accessible crosswalks)?  I have done some research but want to ask those 
> who
> may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
> resources.
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> William
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 




From JFreeh at nfb.org  Mon Sep 14 16:29:57 2009
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:29:57 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind and Motorola to
 Cooperate on Making Cell Phones Accessible to the Blind
Message-ID: <auto-000118660622@mailfront2.g2host.com>



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

<mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org



Jennifer Erickson

Motorola, Inc.

(847) 435-5320

Jennifer.erickson at motorola.com


National Federation of the Blind and Motorola
  to Cooperate on Making Cell Phones Accessible to the Blind



Baltimore, Maryland and Libertyville, Illinois (September 14, 2009): 
The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest 
organization of blind people and the leading advocate for making 
mainstream devices accessible to the blind, and Motorola Inc., a 
leading manufacturer of cell phones and other mobile communications 
devices, announced today that they have entered into a cooperation 
agreement to promote technologies that improve the accessibility of 
cell phones to blind consumers.



Certain future Motorola cell phones will provide verbal readouts of 
information such as the time and date, battery level, signal 
strength, user's phone number, caller ID information for incoming 
calls, missed and received calls, and voice mail alerts.  Blind users 
will also be able to take advantage of verbal readouts and 
voice-command features for ring tone status, inputting and accessing 
contacts, and various other settings.  Motorola expects these cell 
phones to be available in 2010.  The parties have also agreed to work 
together to make additional phones and features accessible to blind users.



Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, 
said: "In an age where productivity and success increasingly depend 
on access to mobile technology such as cellular telephones, it is 
critical that blind Americans have equal access to today's cell 
phones through user interfaces that do not require vision.  The 
National Federation of the Blind appreciates Motorola's commitment to 
making the features of its cell phone products accessible to blind 
users without the need for third-party software, and we look forward 
to working together with Motorola to make future improvements to the 
accessibility of telecommunication technology."



###





From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 17:09:41 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:09:41 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind and Motorola to
	Cooperate on Making Cell Phones Accessible to the Blind
In-Reply-To: <auto-000118660622@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000118660622@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <00fa01ca355e$2880fb60$7982f220$@com>

This is really great.  Between this, I-Phone and the various other mobile
phones, we are definitely coming a long way.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>)
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 11:30 AM
To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind and Motorola to
Cooperate on Making Cell Phones Accessible to the Blind



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

<mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org



Jennifer Erickson

Motorola, Inc.

(847) 435-5320

Jennifer.erickson at motorola.com


National Federation of the Blind and Motorola
  to Cooperate on Making Cell Phones Accessible to the Blind



Baltimore, Maryland and Libertyville, Illinois (September 14, 2009): 
The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest 
organization of blind people and the leading advocate for making 
mainstream devices accessible to the blind, and Motorola Inc., a 
leading manufacturer of cell phones and other mobile communications 
devices, announced today that they have entered into a cooperation 
agreement to promote technologies that improve the accessibility of 
cell phones to blind consumers.



Certain future Motorola cell phones will provide verbal readouts of 
information such as the time and date, battery level, signal 
strength, user's phone number, caller ID information for incoming 
calls, missed and received calls, and voice mail alerts.  Blind users 
will also be able to take advantage of verbal readouts and 
voice-command features for ring tone status, inputting and accessing 
contacts, and various other settings.  Motorola expects these cell 
phones to be available in 2010.  The parties have also agreed to work 
together to make additional phones and features accessible to blind users.



Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, 
said: "In an age where productivity and success increasingly depend 
on access to mobile technology such as cellular telephones, it is 
critical that blind Americans have equal access to today's cell 
phones through user interfaces that do not require vision.  The 
National Federation of the Blind appreciates Motorola's commitment to 
making the features of its cell phone products accessible to blind 
users without the need for third-party software, and we look forward 
to working together with Motorola to make future improvements to the 
accessibility of telecommunication technology."



###




_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
il.com



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 14 19:34:51 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:34:51 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: DREDF eNews Flash - Trial Starts against Social
	Security
Message-ID: <F58A24F769F64CC49C7C780797BAAB31@spike>

News Flash | September 2009        Thought this would be of interest.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Susan Henderson 
To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net 
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 5:44 AM
Subject: DREDF eNews Flash - Trial Starts against Social Security


     NEWS FLASH

      ACB vs. SSA
      Trial Begins
     
      September 14, 2009  


        Dear Friends,

        After four years of litigation, DREDF and co-counsel Howrey LLP, head to trial this morning, September 14, 2009, on behalf of the American Council of the Blind (ACB) and a class of 3,000,000 blind and visually impaired plaintiffs. In a class action lawsuit filed under Section 504, plaintiffs are challenging the Social Security Administration's (SSA) failure to provide its communications in alternative formats that would enable people with visual impairments to have equal access to the agency's programs.

        SSA's failure to provide alternative formats has resulted in the loss of critical benefits, privacy and dignity for individuals who depend on Social Security benefits.

        The trial begins at 7:30 a.m., before Judge William Alsup, in Courtroom 9, at the US District Court for the Northern District of California, 450 Golden Gate Avenue, San Francisco, CA. The trial is expected to last for about two weeks.

        © 2009 








--------------------------------------------------------------------------

       

      Combined Federal Campaign #11944


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Support DREDF when you shop.

      Changing the Present

      iGive


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      CONTACT DREDF:
      info at dredf.org 
      www.dredf.org
      2212 Sixth Street
      Berkeley, CA 94710
      510-644-2555
     
      





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are subscribed to this list as ckrugman at sbcglobal.net. Click here to unsubscribe, or send email to unsubscribe.379751.290629534.3430408932793559041-ckrugman_sbcglobal.net at en.groundspring.org. Our postal address is 
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United States


From benkarpilow at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 20:53:23 2009
From: benkarpilow at gmail.com (Ben Karpilow)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:53:23 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
References: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
Message-ID: <0EB2B8E1981F4FBEB691E01DCF34B38E@benbpgavlhgwwr>

Here in Santa Rosa California, the City has an ADA coordinator whose job it 
is to monitor and  facilitate ADA compliance. Recently,  the City's ADA 
coordinator distributed a questionairre  asking for citizen input regarding 
accessibility. Using that feedback, the City conducted an assessment and 
determined which locations warranted expenditure of funds set aside for ADA 
compliance.  In this way, the City was able to target locations deemed most 
inaccissible by its citizens, a most proper way of doing things, I think. I 
Hope this helps.

Ben

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals


> Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local 
> and/or
> state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
> accessible crosswalks)?  I have done some research but want to ask those 
> who
> may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
> resources.
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> William
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/benkarpilow%40gmail.com 



From Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV  Tue Sep 15 15:08:41 2009
From: Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV (Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR))
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 11:08:41 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Civil Rights Analyst Jobs at HHS/OCR
Message-ID: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1016DF88B@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>

I am posting the following job announcements for two positions within
the Office for Civil Rights, Department of Health and Human Services.
The web site will let you look at the specific announcement and duties
of the Civil Rights analyst positions.  Essentially, they are subject
matter experts on specific Civil Rights areas, i.e. health disparities,
Olmstead disability work, etc.

 

Announcement Number:  

 

HHS-OS-14-2009-0019 (DE) status and non status can apply under DE 

http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=83229646&JobTitle=Senior+He
alth+Information+Technology+and+Privacy+Specialist&vw=d&brd=3876&ss=0&Fe
dEmp=Y&FedPub=Y&q=HHS-OS-14-2009-0018&pg=1&re=0&AVSDM=2009-09-08+00:03:0
0 

 

http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=83199662&JobTitle=Deputy+Re
gional+Manager&q=HHS-OS-14-2009-0008+&sort=rv,-dtex&vw=b&re=134&FedEmp=N
&FedPub=Y&jbf565=&caller=default.aspx&AVSDM=2009-09-03+10:52:00

USAJOBS - Search Jobs  

 

HHS-OS-14-2009-0020 (MP) status candidates only   

USAJOBS - Search Jobs 

 

Title: Civil Rights Analyst- GS-0160-14 

 

Promotion potentials: None 

 

Opening date: Thursday, September 10, 2009 

 

Closing date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 

 

Location:  Washington, DC 

 

Number positions: 2  

 

Civil Rights Analyst  

 

table with 2 columns and 4 rows

SALARY RANGE: 102,721.00 - 133,543.00 USD /year 

 

OPEN PERIOD: Thursday, September 10, 2009

to Wednesday, September 30, 2009  

 

SERIES & GRADE: GS-0160-14/14 

 

POSITION INFORMATION: Full Time Permanent  

 

PROMOTION POTENTIAL: 14 

 

DUTY LOCATIONS:   vacancy(s) in one of the following locations:   2
vacancies - Washington DC, DC  

 

WHO MAY BE CONSIDERED:   

 

This is a competitive vacancy, open to all United States citizens, 

 

advertised under the Delegated Examining Authority. 

 

 

This vacancy is concurrently advertised under merit promotion 

 

(MP) procedures for status candidates under announcement HHS-OS-14-

 

2009-0020. Candidates who wish to be considered under both 

 

procedures 

 

MUST apply to both vacancies. 

table end

 

  

 


From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 02:12:05 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:12:05 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] JAWS Compatible Yahoo Messenger
Message-ID: <02da01ca373c$456c4790$d044d6b0$@com>

Good evening folks.  I know this is not the regular topic on here, but could
anyone tell me which version of yahoo messenger is compatible with JAWS and
where I can download it?

 

Thanks!

 

William


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Fri Sep 18 06:44:49 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:44:49 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Eoc approves proposed regulations for public comment
Message-ID: <D4E598E91B6241D99FE847E856694C2D@spike>

        FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE � 
CONTACT:� Justine Lisser
Wednesday, Sept. 16, 2009 
Charles Robbins (202) 663-4191
�
COMMISSION APPROVES PROPOSED ADA REGULATIONS FOR PUBLIC COMMENT
New Regulations Conform to Changes Made by ADA Amendments Act of 2008
�
WASHINGTON:  The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) today approved a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) revising its regulations to provide that an individual seeking protection under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) establish that he or she has a disability consistent with the original, expansive intent of Congress when it enacted the ADA in 1990.� The NPRM, approved by 2-1 vote, carries a 60-day period for public comment.
�
The NPRM makes several significant changes to the definition of the term "disability"� necessitated by enactment of the ADA Amendments Act of 2008.� The NPRM is posted on the Commission's website, www.eeoc.gov, along with a question-and-answer guide about the proposal and instructions for submitting public comments. 
�
"Today's Commission action marks a key step in implementing the landmark Amendments Act, which will smooth the road for those trying to establish disability under the ADA," said Acting EEOC Chairman Stuart J. Ishimaru.  "The Commission acted following careful and thorough deliberations, and we look forward to reviewing any and all public comments before issuing our final regulation."
� 
Acting EEOC Vice Chair Christine M. Griffin said, "Congress recognized that the intent of the ADA was being misread, that its goals were being compromised, and that action had to be taken.� These regulations will shift the focus of the courts away from further narrowing the definition of disability, and put it back where Congress intended when the ADA was enacted in 1990."
� 
The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), an antidiscrimination statute, was signed into law in July 1990. The EEOC is responsible for enforcing Title I of the ADA, which prohibits employment discrimination against individuals with disabilities. The statute requires employers to make reasonable accommodations to employees and job applicants with disabilities, defined as people with mental or physical impairments that substantially limit a major life activity, persons with a record of a disability, or who, while not actually disabled, are regarded as disabled.
� 
The ADA Amendments Act, which went into effect Jan. 1, 2009, states that Congress expects the EEOC to revise its regulations to conform to changes made by the Act, and expressly authorizes the EEOC to do so.� The new law rejected the holdings in several Supreme Court decisions and portions of EEOC's ADA regulations that Congress believed construed the definition of "disability"� too narrowly, preventing individuals with impairments such as cancer, diabetes, epilepsy, multiple sclerosis, muscular dystrophy, post-traumatic stress disorder, and bipolar disorder from bringing discrimination claims.� The ADA Amendments Act (ADAAA) and the proposed rule make it easier for an individual alleging employment discrimination based on disability to establish that he or she meets the ADA's definition of "disability."� The ADA Amendments Act also modifies the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, which prohibits employment discrimination in the federal workforce on the basis of disability.

The EEOC voted June 17 to adopt the rules changes, which then went to the Office of Management and Budget for review, and to federal agencies.

Consistent with the ADAAA, the NPRM emphasizes that the definition of disability -- an impairment that poses a substantial limitation in a major life activity -- must be construed in favor of broad coverage of individuals to the maximum extent permitted by the terms of the ADA, and should not require extensive analysis; that major life activities include "major bodily functions"; that mitigating measures, such as medications and devices that people use to reduce or eliminate the effects of an impairment, are not to be considered when determining whether someone has a disability; and that impairments that are episodic or in remission, such as epilepsy, cancer, and many kinds of psychiatric impairments, are disabilities if they would "substantially limit"� major life activities when active.� The regulation also provides a more straightforward way of demonstrating a substantial limitation in the major life activity of working, and implements the ADAAA's new standard for determining whether someone is "regarded as" as having a disability.� 
�
The 60-day public comment period on the proposed rule-making will officially commence upon publication of the NPRM in the Federal Register, which is expected to be published the week of September 21, 2009.� The EEOC encourages the public to offer its views and suggestions.
�
The EEOC is responsible for enforcing federal laws prohibiting employment discrimination. Further information about the EEOC is available on its web site at www.eeoc.gov.

 

From Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov  Fri Sep 18 18:54:23 2009
From: Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov (Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC))
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:54:23 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: EEOC sets date to release amended ADA
Message-ID: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE107ED7271@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>

 

 

From: ADA-OSU [mailto:ada-osu at osu.edu] 
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 2:43 PM
To: ADA-OSU
Subject: EEOC sets date to release amended ADA

 

The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) has approved the
proposed ADA regulations for public comment.  These proposed regulations
make changes to the definition of disability as a result of the ADA
Amendments Act.  The 60-day comment period will begin upon the actual
upon publication of the NPRM in the Federal Register, which is expected
to be published the week of September 21, 2009.  Please note that EEOC
is encouraging the public to offer its view and suggestions during the
60-day public comment period.   A question and answer guide is also
available on the EEOC website at
http://eeoc.gov/policy/docs/qanda_adaaa_nprm.html
<http://eeoc.gov/policy/docs/qanda_adaaa_nprm.html> 


From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 21:19:41 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 16:19:41 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Paralegal Job Interview
Message-ID: <003301ca396e$ea132730$be397590$@com>

Good afternoon all!

 

For awhile, I've placed posts on the list seeking out suggestions on how to
get back into the legal field as a paralegal after losing my sight nearly
two years ago.

 

Since Thursday evening, I have heard from three different firms.  One
interview is Monday evening, the second is Tuesday afternoon and the third
has not been scheduled yet.

 

I'm a bit nervous, not with my skill set, but in overcoming the thoughts by
some that blind people cannot work adequately.  I do not wish to start a
conversation about philosophical matters, but rather if any of you would
have suggestions as to how to make these interviews be more effective.

 

I will focus primarily on my skills and knowledge.  I will, at the time of
my interview, face head on the issue of blindness.  My thought was to take
my laptop with me to showcase just how I would be able to perform work since
most don't know of screen readers, etc.  This is just a thought of mine.  If
any of you have better suggestions, please do share.this is my first foray
since losing my sight and could use the assistance.

 

Thanks!

 

William


From rfarber at jw.com  Sat Sep 19 22:47:15 2009
From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:47:15 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Paralegal Job Interview
In-Reply-To: <003301ca396e$ea132730$be397590$@com>
References: <003301ca396e$ea132730$be397590$@com>
Message-ID: <8EA167BDF4483449B67BBE3BFCB648F10D414662@pdc-mail01.jwllp.com>

That's great.  What are the firms?  Perhaps I know someone at them.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:20 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Paralegal Job Interview

Good afternoon all!

 

For awhile, I've placed posts on the list seeking out suggestions on how
to
get back into the legal field as a paralegal after losing my sight
nearly
two years ago.

 

Since Thursday evening, I have heard from three different firms.  One
interview is Monday evening, the second is Tuesday afternoon and the
third
has not been scheduled yet.

 

I'm a bit nervous, not with my skill set, but in overcoming the thoughts
by
some that blind people cannot work adequately.  I do not wish to start a
conversation about philosophical matters, but rather if any of you would
have suggestions as to how to make these interviews be more effective.

 

I will focus primarily on my skills and knowledge.  I will, at the time
of
my interview, face head on the issue of blindness.  My thought was to
take
my laptop with me to showcase just how I would be able to perform work
since
most don't know of screen readers, etc.  This is just a thought of mine.
If
any of you have better suggestions, please do share.this is my first
foray
since losing my sight and could use the assistance.

 

Thanks!

 

William

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.c
om


From sarahandfamily at live.com  Mon Sep 21 18:23:36 2009
From: sarahandfamily at live.com (Sarah)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:23:36 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] law school information
Message-ID: <BLU142-DS5B3202C9A4389D526CCE6B7DD0@phx.gbl>

        Hello. I plan to graduate college in 2011. When do I need to start applying to law schools? How many schools should I apply to? Is there anything I can do now to prepare for the LSAT's? Is the material available in an accessible format?  Thank you. 
    Sarah 

From jts220 at charter.net  Mon Sep 21 19:14:21 2009
From: jts220 at charter.net (jts220 at charter.net)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:14:21 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] law school information
In-Reply-To: <BLU142-DS5B3202C9A4389D526CCE6B7DD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20090921151421.3AB2V.5415625.root@mp08>

Sarah:
Start applying next year.  Before you take the LSAT.  Take a prep course for the LSAT.  I did not and bombed it.  I took the bar prep course and passed with flying colors.  Don't know if the test is available in different format but I would think it must be.
Josh Smith, Esq.
---- Sarah <sarahandfamily at live.com> wrote: 
>         Hello. I plan to graduate college in 2011. When do I need to start applying to law schools? How many schools should I apply to? Is there anything I can do now to prepare for the LSAT's? Is the material available in an accessible format?  Thank you. 
>     Sarah 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jts220%40charter.net



From info at michaelhingson.com  Tue Sep 22 03:08:48 2009
From: info at michaelhingson.com (Michael Hingson)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 22:08:48 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] On-line Demonstrations of KNFB Reader Mobile Software
 and Nokia N86
Message-ID: <auto-000118121520@mailfront1.g2host.com>

The National Federation of the Blind and The Michael Hingson Group 
will hold online demonstrations and discussions of the KnfbReader 
Mobile this Friday afternoon, September 25, 2009, and Saturday, 
September 26, 2009.  The purpose of these meetings is to showcase the 
KnfbReader Mobile using the new Nokia N86 platform.  "We are excited 
about the possibilities afforded by the Nokia N86 and its ability to 
support the KnfbReader Mobile in the future", states Michael Hingson 
president of The Michael Hingson Group.

During these online sessions we will discuss the features of the 
KnfbReader Mobile as well as pricing and availability with the Nokia 
N86.  The N86 has many new and interesting features not available on 
earlier platforms supported by the KnfbReader Mobile.  These sessions 
will be of interest both to existing users as well as those who are 
interested in purchasing a Reader in the future.  After opening 
presentations Michael Hingson will take questions on all aspects of 
the reader.  Those who received this announcement are invited to 
encourage their friends and colleagues to join the session so that as 
many as possible can learn about this amazing device which is 
changing the lives of many blind people throughout the world.

If you have questions or want to learn more about decay NFB reader 
mobile please contact: Michael Hingson
   Email:  <mailto:info at michaelhingson.com>info at michaelhingson.com
   (415) 827-4084

   Date:  Friday September 25, 2009.

   Time:  2:00 P.M. Pacific, 3:00 P.M. Mountain, 4:00 P.M. Central, 
5:00 P.M. Eastern, and elsewhere in the world 21:00 GMT Friday September 25.

   Date:  Saturday September 26, 2009.

   Time:  10:00 A.M. Pacific, 11:00 A.M. Mountain, 12:00 P.M. 
Central, 1:00 P.M. Eastern, and elsewhere in the world 18:00 GMT 
Saturday September 26.


   Where:  KnfbReader Mobile conference room: which you can locate by 
clicking on the following 
link: 
<http://74.208.96.53/masteradmin/room.asp?id=rsb18eeae3cfd2>Enter the 
Conference Room Here

   Or, alternatively,

   <http://74.208.96.53/masteradmin/room.asp?id=rsb18eeae3cfd2>http://74.208.96.53/masteradmin/room.asp?id=rsb18eeae3cfd2.

After reaching the conference room entry page follow the instructions 
to enter the conference room itself.  No password is required.

   We will record the event and put it on Michael Hingson's web site 
<http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com 
so if you are unable to participate live at the above times then you 
may download the presentation or podcast from the website listed above.
   This online interactive program requires no password, is free of
   Charge, and open to anyone worldwide having an Internet connection, a
   Computer, speakers, and a sound card. Those with microphones can
   interact audibly with the presenters and others in the virtual
   audience.

   If you are a first-time user of the Talking Communities online
   conferencing software, there is a small, safe software program that
   you need to download and then run. A link to the software is available
   On the entry screen to the online conference room.



The Michael Hingson Group
      "Speaking with Vision"
                  Michael Hingson, President
                          (415) 827-4084
                    <mailto:info at michaelhingson.com>info at michaelhingson.com
                    www.michaelhingson.com


for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
<http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com/>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
<http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com/>
http://michaelhingson.com/images/knfbReader-michael_hingson.jpg

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From agtolentino at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 08:01:14 2009
From: agtolentino at gmail.com (Aser Tolentino)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:01:14 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
Message-ID: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive technology
question. I’m a 3L in Northern California, and have been interning with area
DA’s offices. I started out in one office working misdemeanor files; that
office paired me with an intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a
different office where I helped the felony unit out with research and
preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with one of those
big office scanners, which I then ran through Kurzweil 1000 OCR. I’m now at
a third office that doesn’t have one of those wonderful multifunction
scanners readily at hand and am thinking my Canon flatbed isn’t up to the
task when I’m handed a file an inch thick.



I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I committed myself
though, I figured I’d ask if there was something in the OCR solutions market
that was better/faster: is there something purpose-built to handle this sort
of thing?



Any advice, including telling me I’m going about this all wrong (perhaps
especially that), would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks,

Aser

From roddj12 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 22 08:27:25 2009
From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 04:27:25 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
In-Reply-To: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT128-DS1812D3AEB0BA81BF2748ADBBDC0@phx.gbl>


Aser, the scanner you are thinking about in my view, is too slow for the 
type of work you need it for. I would suggest that you go with a much 
higher-end scanner, like the Fujitsu 6140, and up. Angie has had great 
success with the ABBYY finereader, I haven't used it but based on her 
experience, if you can I would add that to the package. Good luck.

Rod Alcidonis, J.D.




--------------------------------------------------
From: "Aser Tolentino" <agtolentino at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:01 AM
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR

> Hi All,
>
> This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive technology
> question. IÂ’m a 3L in Northern California, and have been interning with 
> area
> DAÂ’s offices. I started out in one office working misdemeanor files; that
> office paired me with an intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a
> different office where I helped the felony unit out with research and
> preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with one of those
> big office scanners, which I then ran through Kurzweil 1000 OCR. IÂ’m now 
> at
> a third office that doesnÂ’t have one of those wonderful multifunction
> scanners readily at hand and am thinking my Canon flatbed isnÂ’t up to the
> task when IÂ’m handed a file an inch thick.
>
>
>
> I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
> ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I committed 
> myself
> though, I figured IÂ’d ask if there was something in the OCR solutions 
> market
> that was better/faster: is there something purpose-built to handle this 
> sort
> of thing?
>
>
>
> Any advice, including telling me IÂ’m going about this all wrong (perhaps
> especially that), would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aser
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com
> 


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 13:25:22 2009
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:25:22 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
In-Reply-To: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <330F7707970647FC9687A04774628A51@Rufus>

Don't use Kurzweil.  ABBYY Finereader or OmniPro are both commercial , less
expensive and a lot better.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aser Tolentino
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:01 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR

Hi All,

This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive 
technology question. I'm a 3L in Northern California, and have 
been interning with area DA's offices. I started out in one 
office working misdemeanor files; that office paired me with an 
intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a different office 
where I helped the felony unit out with research and 
preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with 
one of those big office scanners, which I then ran through 
Kurzweil 1000 OCR. I'm now at a third office that doesn't have 
one of those wonderful multifunction scanners readily at hand 
and am thinking my Canon flatbed isn't up to the task when I'm 
handed a file an inch thick.



I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I 
committed myself though, I figured I'd ask if there was 
something in the OCR solutions market that was better/faster: 
is there something purpose-built to handle this sort of thing?



Any advice, including telling me I'm going about this all wrong 
(perhaps especially that), would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks,

Aser
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

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virus signature database 4447 (20090922) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4447 (20090922) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 22 13:26:54 2009
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:26:54 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
References: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D87BD2AF3E742548BE9D6DA086C2A97@D3DTZP41>

Hello Aser:

     If a scanner has twain drivers, it is likely compatible with either 
K1000 or OpenBook. Also ask the technical support people who support these 
products, they may have dealt with this issue before. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aser Tolentino" <agtolentino at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 3:01 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR


Hi All,

This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive technology
question. IÂ’m a 3L in Northern California, and have been interning with area
DAÂ’s offices. I started out in one office working misdemeanor files; that
office paired me with an intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a
different office where I helped the felony unit out with research and
preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with one of those
big office scanners, which I then ran through Kurzweil 1000 OCR. IÂ’m now at
a third office that doesnÂ’t have one of those wonderful multifunction
scanners readily at hand and am thinking my Canon flatbed isnÂ’t up to the
task when IÂ’m handed a file an inch thick.



I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I committed myself
though, I figured IÂ’d ask if there was something in the OCR solutions market
that was better/faster: is there something purpose-built to handle this sort
of thing?



Any advice, including telling me IÂ’m going about this all wrong (perhaps
especially that), would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks,

Aser
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net 



From agtolentino at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 02:33:15 2009
From: agtolentino at gmail.com (Aser Tolentino)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:33:15 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
In-Reply-To: <5D87BD2AF3E742548BE9D6DA086C2A97@D3DTZP41>
References: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<5D87BD2AF3E742548BE9D6DA086C2A97@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <c9f7bbbb0909221933g6520776bm9c956c796b4fb884@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the advice. I now have a better idea what I'm facing. I guess
half measures won't do.

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 6:26 AM, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>wrote:

> Hello Aser:
>
>    If a scanner has twain drivers, it is likely compatible with either
> K1000 or OpenBook. Also ask the technical support people who support these
> products, they may have dealt with this issue before. Hope this helps.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" <agtolentino at gmail.com
> >
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 3:01 AM
> Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive technology
> question. I’m a 3L in Northern California, and have been interning with
> area
> DA’s offices. I started out in one office working misdemeanor files; that
> office paired me with an intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a
> different office where I helped the felony unit out with research and
> preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with one of those
> big office scanners, which I then ran through Kurzweil 1000 OCR. I’m now at
> a third office that doesn’t have one of those wonderful multifunction
> scanners readily at hand and am thinking my Canon flatbed isn’t up to the
> task when I’m handed a file an inch thick.
>
>
>
> I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
> ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I committed myself
> though, I figured I’d ask if there was something in the OCR solutions
> market
> that was better/faster: is there something purpose-built to handle this
> sort
> of thing?
>
>
>
> Any advice, including telling me I’m going about this all wrong (perhaps
> especially that), would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aser
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com
>

From JFreeh at nfb.org  Thu Sep 24 04:41:53 2009
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:41:53 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Washington Post article on silent cars
Message-ID: <auto-000118525535@mailfront1.g2host.com>

The following article on the danger posed by silent cars appeared 
today on the front page of the Washington Post.


Washington Post
The Deadly Silence of the Electric Car

Automakers Propose Vroom-Vroom Substitutes to Alert Pedestrians
Byline: Peter Whoriskey
Publication Date: 09/23/2009
<http://c.moreover.com/click/here.pl?z2220551574&z=950243970>Link to Article



After years of trying to make cars sound as if they were riding on 
air, engineers are considering how they might bring back some noise. 
They're trying to make some of them -- those silent hybrids -- more audible.

But how?

A team of engineers developing the Leaf, the forthcoming electric car 
from Nissan and a front-runner in the race for a mass-market electric 
car, have recently been presenting their ideas for artificial noises 
to government officials and focus groups.

Maybe Chime Number 22?

Melody Number 39?

Perhaps a futuristic whirring like the aircraft in 'Blade Runner'? As 
hybrids proliferate and major automakers such as Nissan and General 
Motors prepare to launch battery electric vehicles next year, some 
automakers are seeking to address concerns in the United States and 
Japan that the nearly noiseless vehicles may be so quiet that they 
pose a threat to pedestrians.

At a meeting earlier this month and another over the summer, Nissan 
presented the chime, the melody and a futuristic whir to the National 
Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which has recently gathered 
evidence that the vehicles may pose a safety risk.

Regulatory committees in the United States and Japan are also 
studying complaints about the cars, and Congress is weighing a 
measure requiring vehicles to issue 'non-visual' warnings to 
pedestrians. 'We are studying potential artificial noises that can be 
added to the vehicle,' said Scott Becker, a Nissan senior vice president.

But the nascent industry is divided over whether safety sounds should 
be added to the quiet cars and, if so, what those noises should be. 
'Frankly, we've been working for 30 years to make cars quiet -- never 
thinking they could become too quiet,' said Robert Strassburger, vice 
president for vehicle safety at the Alliance of Automobile 
Manufacturers, an industry group that has been working to address the 
concerns. But now 'those vehicles may be difficult to detect.' Hybrid 
vehicles typically operate on hushed battery-powered electric motors 
when idling and traveling at low speeds. At higher speeds, the 
noisier internal-combustion engine kicks in. Toyota, which makes the 
popular hybrid Prius, a small car that runs very quietly at low 
speeds, does not add artificial sounds.

Cars like Tesla's Roadster, Nissan's Leaf and General Motors' Volt, 
which will depend on battery electric power, may be even quieter.

Officials at Tesla say they have no intention of implementing 'fake 
noises.' The company already makes the $109,000 electric Roadster, a 
luxury product popular with eco-conscious celebrity customers. 'We 
have delivered more than 700 cars, and our customers overwhelmingly 
say the relative quiet of the powertrain is one of the most appealing 
aspects of the car,' said Tesla spokeswoman Rachel Konrad. 'Thanks to 
widespread electric vehicle adoption, we will all enjoy far less 
noise pollution in the future.' Evidence that the hybrid sales spurt 
poses a safety threat has been scant, in part because the phenomenon 
is new and the hybrid cars represent only a small fraction of the 
more than 230 million vehicles on the road, transportation officials said.

But an as-yet-unreleased NHTSA study of accidents in 12 states 
compares accident rates for some hybrid vehicles and their internal 
combustion engine counterparts.

Covering more than 8,000 hybrid electric vehicles and nearly 600,000 
gasoline-fueled cars, the analysis suggests that during certain 
low-speed maneuvers such as turning and backing up, hybrid vehicles 
are 50 percent more likely to be involved in an accident with a 
pedestrian, said Ronald Medford, acting deputy administrator of 
NHTSA. 'We certainly know that blind pedestrians rely heavily on the 
sound of vehicles as a means of determining when it is safe to cross 
the road,' Medford said. 'But all of us are susceptible.' The 
potential problem arises at speeds less than 15 mph, when the 
electric and hybrid vehicles are notably quiet, almost silent. At 
higher speeds, the rush of air and the slap of tires makes the 
electrics almost as noisy as their gasoline-powered counterparts.

Rep. Edolphus Towns (D-N.Y.) has introduced a bill that would require 
the Department of Transportation to establish a safety standard under 
which cars would have to be equipped to issue 'non-visual alerts' so 
that pedestrians can determine the vehicle's location, motion and speed.

It has garnered 139 sponsors, among them Cliff Stearns (R-Fla.), who 
says he has been startled by a quiet car. 'I was down in Florida in 
the parking lot of a shopping center, and I was wheeling my groceries 
with my wife, and I didn't hear a car come up behind me,' Stearns 
told reporters. 'If all the cars are silent in the future, it does 
pose a problem.' But if electric cars are to be equipped with sound, 
there is little agreement over what the sound should be, how loud it 
ought to be and whether manufacturers should be allowed to create 
their own distinctive audio tracks.

Some automakers are already experimenting with or planning to develop noises.

The Fisker Karma, a luxury electric vehicle, will have an integrated 
audio system that will both alert pedestrians and give the car a 
'distinctive audio signature' that will be 'reflective of the car's 
advanced technology,' a spokesman said. Officials with the National 
Federation of the Blind, which has pressed the safety issue with 
automakers and regulators, have advocated that electric cars make 
sounds similar to those of gas-powered cars. 'Society is conditioned 
to that sound,' said John Pare, director of strategic initiatives for 
the group.

There is some concern that if a variety of noises are permitted, then 
electric cars could merely add another layer to the urban cacophony, 
potentially conflicting with state and local laws governing decibel 
levels. 'If we all do it differently, we will confuse the heck out of 
the consumer,'' said Nancy Gioia, director of hybrid and sustainable 
technology at Ford.

Nissan declined to release the audio tracks being considered but said 
it would make its final decision in consultation with regulators.

It is also seeking approval from drivers, some of whom have been 
fussy about the various sounds tested. 'They are too flat and 
irritating in hearing for more than even five minutes,' one 
respondent in a Nissan test said. 'Monotonous sound makes me sleepy,' 
said another.

Said Pare: 'We are certain that there is a safe level of sound that 
isn't burdensome to society.'


From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 24 15:02:27 2009
From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:02:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] firstlawjob.com?
Message-ID: <120103.38482.qm@web112403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I was on Craig's List yesterday looking for legal employment for lawyers in the northern Virginia/D.C. area.
I came across a posting from a web site called firstlawjob.com. I checked out the site and both it and the Craig's List posting say that you apply to the company and they contact firms and other entities on your behalf. (One of their recruiters interview you via telephone to see what fields you're interested in.)
Unfortunately, it costs $199 for a six-month period to have this agency work on your behalf. Right now, it's $89 to sign up.
 
Has anyone heard of this site? Has anyone used this web site to obtain employment? Has anyone obtained employment using this web site? Is it a scam and should I be leary because of the fee and it being on Craig's List? Of course, companies have to make money somehow. I just can't help but think that it could be a Craig's List scam.
 
Thanks.
 
Mike


      

From Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov  Thu Sep 24 15:06:50 2009
From: Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov (Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC))
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:06:50 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009
Message-ID: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE107F9EB77@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>

See the attached release regarding a national award I am receiving this
weekend on the 26th in Florida. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Gary

-------------- next part --------------
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From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Thu Sep 24 17:29:23 2009
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:29:23 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009
References: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE107F9EB77@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <F48B7105605547768728B6E937C5A9B3@labarre>

Congrats and enjoy the experience this weekend!
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC)" <Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov>
To: "Laura at work" <atco_optraining at msn.com>; "Smith, Laura R (CMS/OSORA)" 
<Laura.Smith2 at cms.hhs.gov>; <laura.smitherman at baltsun.com>; 
<jbeasley at gazette.net>; "Hunter, Deborah J. (CMS/CPC)" 
<Deborah.Hunter at cms.hhs.gov>; "Edouard De Tinguy" <EdeTinguy at gmfus.org>; 
"Emily Robichaux" <ERobichaux at gmfus.org>; <slovering at acb.org>; "ADR Section" 
<msbaadr at lists.msba.org>; <mandrews at mail.mchr.state.md.us>; "Mitch 
Pomerantz" <mitch.pomerantz at earthlink.net>; "Michael W Moran" 
<michael754 at verizon.net>; <Pringle at fr.com>; "Cathy Raggio" 
<CRaggio at mdod.state.md.us>; <louise.dempsey at law.csuohio.edu>; "Susan Garber" 
<info at matcoop.org>; "Bryson, Stacey L. (CMS/OEOCR)" 
<Stacey.Bryson at cms.hhs.gov>; <speilaw at inebraska.com>; 
<steven.steinglass at law.csuohio.edu>; "Goldberg, Alan" <agoldber at jhsph.edu>; 
"Barrett, Pshon (USAMSS)" <Pshon.Barrett at usdoj.gov>; <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>; 
<cag at carolineagriffin.com>; "Cathy Raggio" <CRaggio at mdod.state.md.us>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:06 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009


See the attached release regarding a national award I am receiving this
weekend on the 26th in Florida. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Gary




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From Cathryn.Bonnette at va.gov  Thu Sep 24 18:18:00 2009
From: Cathryn.Bonnette at va.gov (Bonnette, Cathryn (ORM))
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:18:00 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009
In-Reply-To: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE107F9EB77@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
References: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE107F9EB77@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <ADF1A8970DE96E49BE5360B69BE1242D047D66AA@VANCRMSGA4.vha.med.va.gov>

So that means you will be very hard to catch for conversation this
week(?)

Cathryn Bonnette
ADR Program Specialist
U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (08)
Office of Resolution Management (ORM)
1575 I Street, NW-10th Floor
Washington, DC 20005
Office 202-461-0513
Fax 202-501-2885
 
http://www.va.gov/orm/
http://www.va.gov/orm/ADR.asp
cathryn.bonnette at va.gov
 
"This e-mail and any attachments are intended only for the use of the
addressee (s) named herein and may contain privileged and/or
confidential information. 
If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, ou are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail,
and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please notify me by return e-mail and via
telephone at (202) 461-0513 and permanently delete the original and any
copy of any e-mail and any printout thereof."
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC)
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:07 AM
To: Laura at work; Smith, Laura R (CMS/OSORA);
laura.smitherman at baltsun.com; jbeasley at gazette.net; Hunter, Deborah J.
(CMS/CPC); Edouard De Tinguy; Emily Robichaux; slovering at acb.org; ADR
Section; mandrews at mail.mchr.state.md.us; Mitch Pomerantz; Michael W
Moran; Pringle at fr.com; Cathy Raggio; louise.dempsey at law.csuohio.edu;
Susan Garber; Bryson, Stacey L. (CMS/OEOCR); speilaw at inebraska.com;
steven.steinglass at law.csuohio.edu; Goldberg, Alan; Barrett, Pshon
(USAMSS); blindlaw at nfbnet.org; cag at carolineagriffin.com; Cathy Raggio
Subject: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009

See the attached release regarding a national award I am receiving this
weekend on the 26th in Florida. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Gary




From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Thu Sep 24 18:33:21 2009
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:33:21 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F832C6@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>



________________________________
From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:05 AM
To: jobs at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice



________________________________
From: Hunter, Sue [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:27 PM
To: Maurer, Patricia; nijc at aol.com; nlove at opd.state.md.us; nmcconnell at jackscamp.com; noconnell at tabinc.org; noryrp at cox.net; nromulus at gmail.com; ntb at boglechang.com; nwpatton at law.stanford.edu; ocaaba at cox.net; omanager at lawyerscomm.org; palsd at hotmail.com; patel at fr.com; pchanster at yahoo.com; pchapman at koonz.com; pgrewal at daycasebeer.com; pkim at lordbissell.com; Maurer, Patricia; pmorrison at state.wv.us; poppy.johnston at unlv.edu; president at abaw.org; president at adc.org
Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice


To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp

We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you.

Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies

 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 09-WDAR-02 Interested applicants should send a cover letter, detailed resume, and writing sample, postmarked no later than October 7, 2009:<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-usao-wdar-02.htm>
Date posted: 09-22-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 09-WDAR-01 Interested applicants should send a cover letter, detailed resume, and writing sample, postmarked no later than October 7, 2009:<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-usao-wdar-01.htm>
Date posted: 09-22-2009
 *   EXPERIENCED WHITE-COLLAR CRIMINAL ATTORNEYS (GS-0905-13/14/15) FRAUD SECTION CRIMINAL DIVISION U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WASHINGTON, DC 09-CRM-FRD-040 Applications will be accepted until October 5, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-crm-frd-40.htm>
Date posted: 09-22-2009
 *   FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS SOUTH CENTRAL REGIONAL OFFICE CONSOLIDATED LEGAL CENTER DALLAS, TEXAS SENIOR ATTORNEY-ADVISOR GS-905-14 This position is open until filled, but no later than September 26, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-bop-scro-conslegalctr.htm>
Date posted: 09-22-2009
 *   ASSISTANT DEPUTY CHIEF, LITIGATION UNIT NARCOTIC AND DANGEROUS DRUG SECTION CRIMINAL DIVISION DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WASHINGTON, D.C. 09-CRM-NDDS-039 This position is open for 14 days. This position closes at midnight on October 2, 2009, Eastern Standard time.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-crm-ndds-039.htm>
Date posted: 09-18-2009
 *   TRIAL ATTORNEY, POLICY UNIT NARCOTIC AND DANGEROUS DRUG SECTION CRIMINAL DIVISION DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WASHINGTON, D.C. 09-CRM-NDDS-038 This position is open for 14 days. This position closes at midnight on October 2, 2009, Eastern Standard time.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-crm-ndds-038.htm>
Date posted: 09-18-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: NDOH-09-02 Applications must be received no later than September 23, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/ndoh-09-02.htm>
Date posted: 09-17-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR U.S. TRUSTEES WASHINGTON, D.C. (1) EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY (GENERAL ADMINISTRATIVE AND BANKRUPTCY LAW)/GS-14/15 ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-37-1400 Applications must be postmarked by the closing date of October 2, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-37-14001.htm>
Date posted: 09-17-2009
 *   SPECIAL ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA HONORABLE JOYCE WHITE VANCE ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 09-NDAL-03 All applications/resumes must be postmarked by September 25, 2009<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-ndal-03.htm>
Date posted: 09-16-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT #09-EDTN-AUSA-09 Applications must be received by Tuesday, October 6, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-edtn-ausa-09.htm>
Date posted: 09-16-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF PRIVACY AND CIVIL LIBERTIES ATTORNEY-ADVISOR / GS-14-15 ANNOUNCEMENT: OPCL-ATY-09-001A This position is amended to include consideration at the GS-14 and GS-15 levels and to extend the closing date until September 25, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/attyadv14-15.htm>
Date posted: 09-15-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION ATTORNEY ADVISOR, GS-905-13/14/15 09-CRM-AFMLS-036 All applications must be received by October 9, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-crm-afmls-036.htm>
Date posted: 09-15-2009
 *   U .S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION TRIAL ATTORNEY, GS-13/14/15 09-CRM-AFMLS-037 All applications must be received by October 9, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-crm-afmls-037.htm>
Date posted: 09-15-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 09-SDTX-06 (AUSA - TERM APPT) Applications must be received by September 22, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-sdtx-06.htm>
Date posted: 09-15-2009
 *   U.S.DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF CHIEF COUNSEL DOMESTIC CRIMINAL LAW SECTION EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY/GS-14 to GS-15 Applications must be received by October 12, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-dea-occ-domcrimelaw.htm>
Date posted: 09-15-2009
 *   EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY(GS-0905-13/14/15) PUBLIC INTEGRITY SECTION WASHINGTON, DC Applications must be postmarked by October 16, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/attorneypings131415-2.htm>
Date posted: 09-11-2009
 *   ATTORNEY-ADVISOR GS-905-14/15 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. OIG-2008-62 WASHINGTON, DC Closing date September 8, 2010.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/oig-2008-62.htm>
Date posted: 09-10-2009
 *   UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-MN-12 The position is opened until filled. The initial cut-off date for the receipt of applications is October 2, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-mn-12.htm>
Date posted: 09-10-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF CHIEF COUNSEL OPERATIONAL LAW DIVISION SUPERVISORY ATTORNEY/GS 15 Applications must be received by September 24, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/aco.htm>
Date posted: 09-10-2009

The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information.

-------------- next part --------------
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From Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov  Thu Sep 24 19:31:25 2009
From: Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov (Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC))
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:31:25 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] [blind law] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009
In-Reply-To: <ADF1A8970DE96E49BE5360B69BE1242D047D66AA@VANCRMSGA4.vha.med.va.gov>
References: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE107F9EB77@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
	<ADF1A8970DE96E49BE5360B69BE1242D047D66AA@VANCRMSGA4.vha.med.va.gov>
Message-ID: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE1080391CB@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>

Probably so, up through Thursday next week. Thanks.
G




-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Bonnette, Cathryn (ORM)
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 2:18 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009

So that means you will be very hard to catch for conversation this
week(?)

Cathryn Bonnette
ADR Program Specialist
U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (08)
Office of Resolution Management (ORM)
1575 I Street, NW-10th Floor
Washington, DC 20005
Office 202-461-0513
Fax 202-501-2885
 
http://www.va.gov/orm/
http://www.va.gov/orm/ADR.asp
cathryn.bonnette at va.gov
 
"This e-mail and any attachments are intended only for the use of the
addressee (s) named herein and may contain privileged and/or
confidential information. 
If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, ou are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail,
and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please notify me by return e-mail and via
telephone at (202) 461-0513 and permanently delete the original and any
copy of any e-mail and any printout thereof."
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC)
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:07 AM
To: Laura at work; Smith, Laura R (CMS/OSORA);
laura.smitherman at baltsun.com; jbeasley at gazette.net; Hunter, Deborah J.
(CMS/CPC); Edouard De Tinguy; Emily Robichaux; slovering at acb.org; ADR
Section; mandrews at mail.mchr.state.md.us; Mitch Pomerantz; Michael W
Moran; Pringle at fr.com; Cathy Raggio; louise.dempsey at law.csuohio.edu;
Susan Garber; Bryson, Stacey L. (CMS/OEOCR); speilaw at inebraska.com;
steven.steinglass at law.csuohio.edu; Goldberg, Alan; Barrett, Pshon
(USAMSS); blindlaw at nfbnet.org; cag at carolineagriffin.com; Cathy Raggio
Subject: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009

See the attached release regarding a national award I am receiving this
weekend on the 26th in Florida. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Gary



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gary.norman%40
cms.hhs.gov




From Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov  Thu Sep 24 19:48:25 2009
From: Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov (Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC))
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:48:25 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Question About SSA Representation
Message-ID: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE10803921B@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>

Greetings:

I have a good friend whose husband may be sufficiently impaired as to be
disabled, especially, as I would think would be the circumstance, under
the ADA Amendments Ac. Her husband may be filing for disability. I
cannot represent the husband as I am a federal employee. And ultimately
the friend believes outside counsel, (she is also an attorney) would be
appropriate. She is copied. As such, she is seeking legal counsel
regarding SSA - SSDI - legal issues. She and her husband reside here in
Baltimore. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Gary Norman


From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Thu Sep 24 21:11:05 2009
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:11:05 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Technology and Liberty Project Director,
 ALCU of Washington, job announcement
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F832CE@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>


Link:
http://www.aclu-wa.org/AboutUs/jobs/techlibdirector.cfm

Text:
Technology and Liberty Project Director

The ACLU of Washington is a non-profit, public interest organization devoted to protecting civil liberties and civil rights. Its staff of 27 employees and numerous volunteers work in a fast-paced, friendly and professional office.

The ACLU seeks a self-motivated public policy advocate to lead its work to protect civil liberties in the face of society's increasingly advanced technologies. Using strategies of education, advocacy, coalition building, and legal efforts, the Technology and Liberty Director advances a civil liberties perspective on such issues as RFID, data aggregation, surveillance technologies, and online free speech. The Technology and Liberty Director works closely and collaboratively with senior ACLU staff, and has significant interaction with the national ACLU Technology and Liberty Project. The position reports to the Executive Director through the Deputy Director.

Responsibilities

Regular responsibilities will include the following work:

Research and analyze technology-related proposals by government and industry, including those related to the domestic war on terrorism

In collaboration with senior staff, develop positions and strategies to respond to civil liberties and technology issues.

Conduct outreach and public education to stakeholders through speaking engagements, media work, and visits with ACLU supporters.

Provide expertise to policymakers, the press, and coalition partners.

Cultivate relationships and develop positioning materials for government officials leading technology related policy efforts.

Forge coalitions with local partners, including technology companies, grassroots groups, public interest groups, academics, and other technology experts.

Create educational materials for use with community stakeholders and ACLU constituents.

Build ACLU-WA's pool of subject matter experts and volunteers interested in technology and liberty issues.

Recruit and supervise interns and volunteers working on technology policy and issues.

Assist in other activities as assigned. Help maintain a positive, respectful, welcoming, and professional work environment for employees, interns and volunteers.

Qualifications:

A law degree or an advanced public policy degree.

Work or academic experience in a technology-related field, along with significant public policy experience.

Demonstrated skills as an articulate public advocate.

Excellent analysis, writing, and research skills. Prior experience simplifying and communicating technical issues to non-technical audiences.

Strong project management, organization and collaboration skills.

Strong commitment to and understanding of civil liberties and civil rights.

Ability to work cooperatively on a variety of projects with a broad range of individuals and community organizations.

Ability to work independently and under pressure, to attend occasional evening meetings and sometimes to work long or irregular hours.

A commitment to diversity; a personal approach that values the individual and respects differences of race, ethnicity, age, gender, sexual orientation, religion, ability, and socio-economic circumstance.

Compensation:

Salary will be based on experience and the parameters of the ACLU's compensation policies. Excellent benefits package includes three weeks paid vacation to start, medical and dental insurance, pension plan, long-term disability insurance and ten paid holidays.

To apply:

Applicants should email a cover letter and resume to the Screening Committee at Jobs at aclu-wa.org. Please put "TLP" in the subject line.

Applications may also be submitted by mail to:

Technology and Liberty Project Director Search Committee
ACLU of Washington
705 2nd Avenue, Suite 300
Seattle, WA 98104-1799

Please do not send materials by both email and postal mail. Applications will be accepted until the position is filled, at which time the job announcement will be removed from our website, www.aclu-wa.org/aboutus/jobs.

The ACLU is an affirmative action/equal opportunity employer and encourages individuals of every race, creed, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, and gender identity to apply.

The ACLU of Washington comprises two separate corporate entities, the American Civil Liberties Union of Washington and the American Civil Liberties Union of Washington Foundation. The two corporations share the same overall mission, office space, and employees. This job posting refers collectively to the two organizations under the name "ACLU of Washington."


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 22:33:00 2009
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:33:00 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
Message-ID: <6BA28B150790447A94EDDEDE7D0C7680@Rufus>

Hello all,

So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I would
have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the
nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December and
faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so why, after
all this trouble, am I still on the fence?

I'm currently the development director for a national organization.  On the
side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started a
little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great that I'm
going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base of customers
before the website is even finished gives me hope that something will come
of it.

I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill set.
I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge national
partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree would allow me
the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding another
good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a law degree to
excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely make me better, more
competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time program
and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I went to law
school just because it was the cool thing to do.  Sometimes my master's
degree seems like enough, and then there are times I wonder if I'm not
selling myself short because I did not jump for the extra hoop.

Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing attorneys as
to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the prospect
of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal representation is
out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally help people with cases of
discrimination and the like, especially with attorneys costing as much as
they do, but at the end of the day I have to be honest in my feelings that
if I went to law school it would be to better understand contracts and the
laws that govern business transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of
saying I'm interested in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not
become so boring since my early college days when I thought I wanted to
defend criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no
choices, but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.

Thanks in advance for any and all input.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4455 (20090924) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com  Thu Sep 24 23:21:45 2009
From: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com (ray wayne)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:21:45 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Question About SSA Representation
In-Reply-To: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE10803921B@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
References: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE10803921B@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <20090924232145.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com>

I expect that people closer to your home will reply, but in the meantime, here's what I know, or think I know. 

Social Security has its own definitions, both of disability and of blindness.  To my knowledge, neither was affected by the ADA amendments.  Also, if the guy is legally blind, that is a separate category and is usually easier to prove than most other disabilities are.  Also, there are aspects of benefits that apply to blind people and not to people with other disabilities, one being the amounts one can earn without losing benefits.  So if he has blindness and some other disability or disabilities, go with blindness.  

Finally, he doesn't have to have a lawyer, though it is a good idea to have someone who is experienced in advocating for Social Security applicants and recipients. 

Good luck! 

Ray Wayne, New York City



----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC)" <Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov>
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org, speilaw at inebraska.com, "Day Also-Mohamed" <dayalmohamed at gmail.com>, "Elaine Gardner" <Elaine_Gardner at washlaw.org>, mbrunson at acb.org
Date: Thursday, Sep 24, 2009 16:30:43
Subject: [bllaw] Question About SSA Representation

>
>
> Greetings:
> 
> I have a good friend whose husband may be sufficiently impaired as to be
> disabled, especially, as I would think would be the circumstance, under
> the ADA Amendments Ac. Her husband may be filing for disability. I
> cannot represent the husband as I am a federal employee. And ultimately
> the friend believes outside counsel, (she is also an attorney) would be
> appropriate. She is copied. As such, she is seeking legal counsel
> regarding SSA �� SSDI �� legal issues. She and her husband reside here in
> Baltimore. Thanks.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Gary Norman
> 
> _______________________________________________
> bllaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for bllaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com


From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 23:48:09 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:48:09 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Question About SSA Representation
In-Reply-To: <20090924232145.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com>
References: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE10803921B@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
	<20090924232145.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <01f601ca3d71$7aeb9a20$70c2ce60$@com>

I agree with Ray.  You do not need an attorney.  Since blindness is one of
the easier disabilities to prove, then I would suggest filing the initial
application on your own.  This will allow you to be able to keep all of your
back pay benefits, should there be any, rather than paying the 25% to an
attorney.  

Filing the initial application is the easiest step and does not require the
use of an attorney or representative.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ray wayne
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:22 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Question About SSA Representation

I expect that people closer to your home will reply, but in the meantime,
here's what I know, or think I know. 

Social Security has its own definitions, both of disability and of
blindness.  To my knowledge, neither was affected by the ADA amendments.
Also, if the guy is legally blind, that is a separate category and is
usually easier to prove than most other disabilities are.  Also, there are
aspects of benefits that apply to blind people and not to people with other
disabilities, one being the amounts one can earn without losing benefits.
So if he has blindness and some other disability or disabilities, go with
blindness.  

Finally, he doesn't have to have a lawyer, though it is a good idea to have
someone who is experienced in advocating for Social Security applicants and
recipients. 

Good luck! 

Ray Wayne, New York City



----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC)" <Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov>
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org, speilaw at inebraska.com, "Day Also-Mohamed"
<dayalmohamed at gmail.com>, "Elaine Gardner" <Elaine_Gardner at washlaw.org>,
mbrunson at acb.org
Date: Thursday, Sep 24, 2009 16:30:43
Subject: [bllaw] Question About SSA Representation

>
>
> Greetings:
> 
> I have a good friend whose husband may be sufficiently impaired as to 
> be disabled, especially, as I would think would be the circumstance, 
> under the ADA Amendments Ac. Her husband may be filing for disability. 
> I cannot represent the husband as I am a federal employee. And 
> ultimately the friend believes outside counsel, (she is also an 
> attorney) would be appropriate. She is copied. As such, she is seeking 
> legal counsel regarding SSA  SSDI  legal issues. She and her husband 
> reside here in Baltimore. Thanks.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Gary Norman
> 
> _______________________________________________
> bllaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
bllaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40ny
> c.rr.com




From angie.matney at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 00:21:42 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:21:42 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
In-Reply-To: <6BA28B150790447A94EDDEDE7D0C7680@Rufus>
References: <6BA28B150790447A94EDDEDE7D0C7680@Rufus>
Message-ID: <4abc0d10.48c3f10a.6575.1b8f@mx.google.com>

Hi Joe,

Hey,  corporate law? Boring? I resemble that remark! *smile*

Given the job prospects for lawyers these days, and given that you are happy
doing what you are doing, I'd consider taking the exam but not applying this
year. Your score is good for five years, after all.

Either way, congrats on dealing with LSAC!

Angie



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:33 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Hello all,

So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I would
have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the
nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December and
faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so why, after
all this trouble, am I still on the fence?

I'm currently the development director for a national organization.  On the
side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started a
little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great that I'm
going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base of customers
before the website is even finished gives me hope that something will come
of it.

I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill set.
I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge national
partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree would allow me
the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding another
good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a law degree to
excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely make me better, more
competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time program
and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I went to law
school just because it was the cool thing to do.  Sometimes my master's
degree seems like enough, and then there are times I wonder if I'm not
selling myself short because I did not jump for the extra hoop.

Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing attorneys as
to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the prospect
of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal representation is
out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally help people with cases of
discrimination and the like, especially with attorneys costing as much as
they do, but at the end of the day I have to be honest in my feelings that
if I went to law school it would be to better understand contracts and the
laws that govern business transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of
saying I'm interested in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not
become so boring since my early college days when I thought I wanted to
defend criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no
choices, but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.

Thanks in advance for any and all input.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4455 (20090924) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 


_______________________________________________
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il.com



From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 01:06:07 2009
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:06:07 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
In-Reply-To: <4abc0d10.48c3f10a.6575.1b8f@mx.google.com>
References: <6BA28B150790447A94EDDEDE7D0C7680@Rufus>
	<4abc0d10.48c3f10a.6575.1b8f@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <8c58e54a0909241806v69276c43qfe1a0f8d2af801c2@mail.gmail.com>

Ditto on Angie's comments from me, Joe.  In my humble opinion law school
goes an inch deep and a mile long.  Law school will teach you to be a jack
of many legal specialties but a master of none.  Law school alone will
almost certainly not make you more expert at your grant-writing specialty
without coupling that knowledge with hands on experience.  Based on my
experience (which is not much) it's my opinion that in the aggregate over
time there's a 51% chance (i.e. just barely more likely than not) that a law
degree will not pay off monetarily because you already have a strong skill
set that pays you well.
Mike


On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 5:21 PM, Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> Hey,  corporate law? Boring? I resemble that remark! *smile*
>
> Given the job prospects for lawyers these days, and given that you are
> happy
> doing what you are doing, I'd consider taking the exam but not applying
> this
> year. Your score is good for five years, after all.
>
> Either way, congrats on dealing with LSAC!
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:33 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
>
> Hello all,
>
> So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I would
> have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the
> nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December and
> faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so why, after
> all this trouble, am I still on the fence?
>
> I'm currently the development director for a national organization.  On the
> side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started a
> little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great that I'm
> going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base of customers
> before the website is even finished gives me hope that something will come
> of it.
>
> I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill set.
> I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge national
> partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree would allow me
> the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding another
> good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a law degree to
> excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely make me better, more
> competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time
> program
> and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I went to law
> school just because it was the cool thing to do.  Sometimes my master's
> degree seems like enough, and then there are times I wonder if I'm not
> selling myself short because I did not jump for the extra hoop.
>
> Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing attorneys as
> to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the prospect
> of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal representation
> is
> out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally help people with cases
> of
> discrimination and the like, especially with attorneys costing as much as
> they do, but at the end of the day I have to be honest in my feelings that
> if I went to law school it would be to better understand contracts and the
> laws that govern business transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of
> saying I'm interested in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not
> become so boring since my early college days when I thought I wanted to
> defend criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no
> choices, but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all input.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 4455 (20090924) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com
>

From rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 25 02:56:59 2009
From: rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:56:59 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0909241806v69276c43qfe1a0f8d2af801c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6BA28B150790447A94EDDEDE7D0C7680@Rufus><4abc0d10.48c3f10a.6575.1b8f@mx.google.com>
	<8c58e54a0909241806v69276c43qfe1a0f8d2af801c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6F9F8E9AA6B7421AB1E3E5E3B1AE6469@russ>


If you have gone this far, take the test and see what you get. If the score
is high, you will know that law is in your blood. On the other hand, if your
score is in the middle, or lower, this might be a subtle suggestion to keep
doing what you are doing.  Law school will demand a considerable amount of
your time. Thus, unless you really want it, don't do it. 


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Fry
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:06 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Ditto on Angie's comments from me, Joe.  In my humble opinion law school
goes an inch deep and a mile long.  Law school will teach you to be a jack
of many legal specialties but a master of none.  Law school alone will
almost certainly not make you more expert at your grant-writing specialty
without coupling that knowledge with hands on experience.  Based on my
experience (which is not much) it's my opinion that in the aggregate over
time there's a 51% chance (i.e. just barely more likely than not) that a law
degree will not pay off monetarily because you already have a strong skill
set that pays you well.
Mike


On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 5:21 PM, Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> Hey,  corporate law? Boring? I resemble that remark! *smile*
>
> Given the job prospects for lawyers these days, and given that you are
> happy
> doing what you are doing, I'd consider taking the exam but not applying
> this
> year. Your score is good for five years, after all.
>
> Either way, congrats on dealing with LSAC!
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:33 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
>
> Hello all,
>
> So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I
would
> have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the
> nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December and
> faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so why,
after
> all this trouble, am I still on the fence?
>
> I'm currently the development director for a national organization.  On
the
> side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started a
> little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great that I'm
> going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base of customers
> before the website is even finished gives me hope that something will come
> of it.
>
> I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill
set.
> I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge national
> partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree would allow
me
> the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding another
> good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a law degree to
> excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely make me better,
more
> competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time
> program
> and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I went to law
> school just because it was the cool thing to do.  Sometimes my master's
> degree seems like enough, and then there are times I wonder if I'm not
> selling myself short because I did not jump for the extra hoop.
>
> Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing attorneys
as
> to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the prospect
> of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal representation
> is
> out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally help people with cases
> of
> discrimination and the like, especially with attorneys costing as much as
> they do, but at the end of the day I have to be honest in my feelings that
> if I went to law school it would be to better understand contracts and the
> laws that govern business transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of
> saying I'm interested in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not
> become so boring since my early college days when I thought I wanted to
> defend criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no
> choices, but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all input.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 4455 (20090924) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.
com
>
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo
.com




From joramsey at cox.net  Fri Sep 25 06:00:11 2009
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 02:00:11 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
In-Reply-To: <6F9F8E9AA6B7421AB1E3E5E3B1AE6469@russ>
Message-ID: <0579086169484535A4F7CC8B0905F707@noneeb869fea9a>

Year after year, thread after worn out thread on the topic of the LSAT, I am
amazed that people still seem to honestly believe that there is anything
more than a coincidental correlation between the LSAT and the odds that a
person will successfully complete law school.
I cannot tell you how many successful attorneys that I know who did not do
well on the LSAT and are very effective attorneys. There is no legitimate
correlation between the LSAT and successfully completing law school. You can
just as easily have prospective applicants pan for gold and say that those
who find gold will be successful law school candidates.
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.

Gainesville, FL 32609

(352) 505-6642

 

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:57 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice



If you have gone this far, take the test and see what you get. If the score
is high, you will know that law is in your blood. On the other hand, if your
score is in the middle, or lower, this might be a subtle suggestion to keep
doing what you are doing.  Law school will demand a considerable amount of
your time. Thus, unless you really want it, don't do it. 


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Fry
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:06 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Ditto on Angie's comments from me, Joe.  In my humble opinion law school
goes an inch deep and a mile long.  Law school will teach you to be a jack
of many legal specialties but a master of none.  Law school alone will
almost certainly not make you more expert at your grant-writing specialty
without coupling that knowledge with hands on experience.  Based on my
experience (which is not much) it's my opinion that in the aggregate over
time there's a 51% chance (i.e. just barely more likely than not) that a law
degree will not pay off monetarily because you already have a strong skill
set that pays you well. Mike


On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 5:21 PM, Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> Hey,  corporate law? Boring? I resemble that remark! *smile*
>
> Given the job prospects for lawyers these days, and given that you are 
> happy doing what you are doing, I'd consider taking the exam but not 
> applying this
> year. Your score is good for five years, after all.
>
> Either way, congrats on dealing with LSAC!
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:33 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
>
> Hello all,
>
> So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I
would
> have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the 
> nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December 
> and faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so 
> why,
after
> all this trouble, am I still on the fence?
>
> I'm currently the development director for a national organization.  
> On
the
> side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started 
> a little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great 
> that I'm going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base 
> of customers before the website is even finished gives me hope that 
> something will come of it.
>
> I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill
set.
> I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge 
> national partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree 
> would allow
me
> the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding 
> another good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a 
> law degree to excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely 
> make me better,
more
> competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time 
> program and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I 
> went to law school just because it was the cool thing to do.  
> Sometimes my master's degree seems like enough, and then there are 
> times I wonder if I'm not selling myself short because I did not jump 
> for the extra hoop.
>
> Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing 
> attorneys
as
> to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the 
> prospect of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal 
> representation is out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally 
> help people with cases of
> discrimination and the like, especially with attorneys costing as much as
> they do, but at the end of the day I have to be honest in my feelings that
> if I went to law school it would be to better understand contracts and the
> laws that govern business transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of
> saying I'm interested in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not
> become so boring since my early college days when I thought I wanted to
> defend criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no
> choices, but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all input.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the 
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 4455 (20090924) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.
com
>
_______________________________________________
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blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjtlawfirm%40yahoo
.com



_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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From cdborne at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 06:31:12 2009
From: cdborne at gmail.com (Craig Borne)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 02:31:12 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
In-Reply-To: <0579086169484535A4F7CC8B0905F707@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <6F9F8E9AA6B7421AB1E3E5E3B1AE6469@russ>
	<0579086169484535A4F7CC8B0905F707@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <7F485738F67847CFA617030D2F568709@CraigPC>

John,
Do you do any copyright law in Florida?
Craig 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John Ramsey
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 2:00 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Year after year, thread after worn out thread on the topic of the LSAT, I am
amazed that people still seem to honestly believe that there is anything
more than a coincidental correlation between the LSAT and the odds that a
person will successfully complete law school.
I cannot tell you how many successful attorneys that I know who did not do
well on the LSAT and are very effective attorneys. There is no legitimate
correlation between the LSAT and successfully completing law school. You can
just as easily have prospective applicants pan for gold and say that those
who find gold will be successful law school candidates.
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.

Gainesville, FL 32609

(352) 505-6642

 

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:57 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice



If you have gone this far, take the test and see what you get. If the score
is high, you will know that law is in your blood. On the other hand, if your
score is in the middle, or lower, this might be a subtle suggestion to keep
doing what you are doing.  Law school will demand a considerable amount of
your time. Thus, unless you really want it, don't do it. 


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Fry
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:06 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Ditto on Angie's comments from me, Joe.  In my humble opinion law school
goes an inch deep and a mile long.  Law school will teach you to be a jack
of many legal specialties but a master of none.  Law school alone will
almost certainly not make you more expert at your grant-writing specialty
without coupling that knowledge with hands on experience.  Based on my
experience (which is not much) it's my opinion that in the aggregate over
time there's a 51% chance (i.e. just barely more likely than not) that a law
degree will not pay off monetarily because you already have a strong skill
set that pays you well. Mike


On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 5:21 PM, Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> Hey,  corporate law? Boring? I resemble that remark! *smile*
>
> Given the job prospects for lawyers these days, and given that you are 
> happy doing what you are doing, I'd consider taking the exam but not 
> applying this year. Your score is good for five years, after all.
>
> Either way, congrats on dealing with LSAC!
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:33 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
>
> Hello all,
>
> So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I
would
> have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the 
> nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December 
> and faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so 
> why,
after
> all this trouble, am I still on the fence?
>
> I'm currently the development director for a national organization.  
> On
the
> side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started 
> a little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great 
> that I'm going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base 
> of customers before the website is even finished gives me hope that 
> something will come of it.
>
> I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill
set.
> I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge 
> national partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree 
> would allow
me
> the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding 
> another good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a 
> law degree to excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely 
> make me better,
more
> competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time 
> program and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I 
> went to law school just because it was the cool thing to do.
> Sometimes my master's degree seems like enough, and then there are 
> times I wonder if I'm not selling myself short because I did not jump 
> for the extra hoop.
>
> Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing 
> attorneys
as
> to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the 
> prospect of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal 
> representation is out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally 
> help people with cases of discrimination and the like, especially with 
> attorneys costing as much as they do, but at the end of the day I have 
> to be honest in my feelings that if I went to law school it would be 
> to better understand contracts and the laws that govern business 
> transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of saying I'm interested 
> in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not become so boring 
> since my early college days when I thought I wanted to defend 
> criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no choices, 
> but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all input.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the 
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 4455 (20090924) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
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> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
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com
>
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From joramsey at cox.net  Fri Sep 25 07:44:35 2009
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 03:44:35 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
In-Reply-To: <7F485738F67847CFA617030D2F568709@CraigPC>
Message-ID: <6F419E7E73FA4AB4854C16A518862248@noneeb869fea9a>

Craig, Actually I do not do any copyright law at all but I do have a contact
who does do copyright law here in Florida. Contact me and I will see if I
can help you.
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.

Gainesville, FL 32609

(352) 505-6642

 

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Craig Borne
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 2:31 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice


John,
Do you do any copyright law in Florida?
Craig 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John Ramsey
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 2:00 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Year after year, thread after worn out thread on the topic of the LSAT, I am
amazed that people still seem to honestly believe that there is anything
more than a coincidental correlation between the LSAT and the odds that a
person will successfully complete law school. I cannot tell you how many
successful attorneys that I know who did not do well on the LSAT and are
very effective attorneys. There is no legitimate correlation between the
LSAT and successfully completing law school. You can just as easily have
prospective applicants pan for gold and say that those who find gold will be
successful law school candidates. John

John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.

Gainesville, FL 32609

(352) 505-6642

 

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:57 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice



If you have gone this far, take the test and see what you get. If the score
is high, you will know that law is in your blood. On the other hand, if your
score is in the middle, or lower, this might be a subtle suggestion to keep
doing what you are doing.  Law school will demand a considerable amount of
your time. Thus, unless you really want it, don't do it. 


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Fry
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:06 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Ditto on Angie's comments from me, Joe.  In my humble opinion law school
goes an inch deep and a mile long.  Law school will teach you to be a jack
of many legal specialties but a master of none.  Law school alone will
almost certainly not make you more expert at your grant-writing specialty
without coupling that knowledge with hands on experience.  Based on my
experience (which is not much) it's my opinion that in the aggregate over
time there's a 51% chance (i.e. just barely more likely than not) that a law
degree will not pay off monetarily because you already have a strong skill
set that pays you well. Mike


On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 5:21 PM, Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> Hey,  corporate law? Boring? I resemble that remark! *smile*
>
> Given the job prospects for lawyers these days, and given that you are
> happy doing what you are doing, I'd consider taking the exam but not 
> applying this year. Your score is good for five years, after all.
>
> Either way, congrats on dealing with LSAC!
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:33 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
>
> Hello all,
>
> So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I
would
> have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the
> nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December 
> and faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so 
> why,
after
> all this trouble, am I still on the fence?
>
> I'm currently the development director for a national organization.
> On
the
> side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started
> a little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great 
> that I'm going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base 
> of customers before the website is even finished gives me hope that 
> something will come of it.
>
> I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill
set.
> I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge
> national partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree 
> would allow
me
> the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding
> another good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a 
> law degree to excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely 
> make me better,
more
> competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time
> program and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I 
> went to law school just because it was the cool thing to do.
> Sometimes my master's degree seems like enough, and then there are 
> times I wonder if I'm not selling myself short because I did not jump 
> for the extra hoop.
>
> Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing
> attorneys
as
> to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the
> prospect of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal 
> representation is out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally 
> help people with cases of discrimination and the like, especially with 
> attorneys costing as much as they do, but at the end of the day I have 
> to be honest in my feelings that if I went to law school it would be 
> to better understand contracts and the laws that govern business 
> transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of saying I'm interested 
> in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not become so boring 
> since my early college days when I thought I wanted to defend 
> criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no choices, 
> but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all input.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 4455 (20090924) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.
com
>
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blindlaw:
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.com



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m


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blindlaw:
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From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Fri Sep 25 15:45:01 2009
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:45:01 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law
 attorney - Ref#24614188
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F832DB@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>

Volunteer opportunities 

-----Original Message-----
From: sender at lists.bigtent.com [mailto:sender at lists.bigtent.com] On Behalf Of Anonymous
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:00 PM
To: MAMAS Mother Attorneys Mentoring Assoc. of Seattle General Discussion
Subject: [mamas_general] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law attorney - Ref#24614188

Anonymous posted:

A colleague whose son has severe diabetes has passed this along to me.  If you're interested, I'll put you in touch with him.

"The American Diabetes Association is looking for attorney volunteers to help parents if they have issues at school with their diabetic child.  They offer training in D.C. and also offer scholarships to pay for the trip/hotel.  It is very good ADA training and you also get on a mailing list for a large variety of ADA related case law and issues. Very educational and good for networking.  Referrals for Washington State for actual school issues tend to be very low and it usually is just a meeting with the School superintendent to "educate" them on the Federal and State law."

________________________________________
View and comment online: http://www.bigtent.com/group/forum/message/24614188?md=MTE3OTgzMDM=
HINT: When replying by email, please do not include the original message.


________________________________________
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From jweisberg at screncilaw.com  Fri Sep 25 17:26:13 2009
From: jweisberg at screncilaw.com (James Weisberg)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:26:13 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law
	attorney - Ref#24614188
In-Reply-To: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F832DB@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>
References: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F832DB@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>
Message-ID: <FC50B49ED94B8A45A9AA3CE6D096CAED1F3CB7@2K3FS1.screnci.local>

Can contact info for this be forwarded to me?  Thanks.

James W. Weisberg, Esq. 
Law Office of Stephen W. Screnci, P.A.
2200 N.W. Boca Raton Blvd., Ste. 210
Boca Raton, Florida  33431
V:  (561) 300-3390
F:  (561) 300-3391
Email:  JWeisberg at screncilaw.com

Admitted in Wisconsin
Nationwide Practice Limited to Immigration Matters‡ 

‡Representing clients from all states throughout the world. We may be retained to represent you, a family member, a friend, an employer, or an employee regardless of your location because the practice of immigration law is federally regulated and not state specific. Sperry v. Florida, 373 U.S. 379 (1963).

This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in this message. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message from your system.

This exchange of information does not create an attorney-client relationship nor does it constitute legal advice.  The Law Office of Stephen W. Screnci, P.A. expects the recipient will independently evaluate this information in accordance with this disclaimer.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 11:45 AM
To: 'blindlaw at nfbnet.org'
Subject: [blindlaw] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law attorney - Ref#24614188

Volunteer opportunities 

-----Original Message-----
From: sender at lists.bigtent.com [mailto:sender at lists.bigtent.com] On Behalf Of Anonymous
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:00 PM
To: MAMAS Mother Attorneys Mentoring Assoc. of Seattle General Discussion
Subject: [mamas_general] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law attorney - Ref#24614188

Anonymous posted:

A colleague whose son has severe diabetes has passed this along to me.  If you're interested, I'll put you in touch with him.

"The American Diabetes Association is looking for attorney volunteers to help parents if they have issues at school with their diabetic child.  They offer training in D.C. and also offer scholarships to pay for the trip/hotel.  It is very good ADA training and you also get on a mailing list for a large variety of ADA related case law and issues. Very educational and good for networking.  Referrals for Washington State for actual school issues tend to be very low and it usually is just a meeting with the School superintendent to "educate" them on the Federal and State law."

________________________________________
View and comment online: http://www.bigtent.com/group/forum/message/24614188?md=MTE3OTgzMDM=
HINT: When replying by email, please do not include the original message.


________________________________________
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The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

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The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com
 


From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Fri Sep 25 19:42:56 2009
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:42:56 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school
	law	attorney - Ref#24614188
In-Reply-To: <FC50B49ED94B8A45A9AA3CE6D096CAED1F3CB7@2K3FS1.screnci.local>
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F832ED@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>

I would just call the ADA 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 10:26 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law attorney - Ref#24614188

Can contact info for this be forwarded to me?  Thanks.

James W. Weisberg, Esq. 
Law Office of Stephen W. Screnci, P.A.
2200 N.W. Boca Raton Blvd., Ste. 210
Boca Raton, Florida  33431
V:  (561) 300-3390
F:  (561) 300-3391
Email:  JWeisberg at screncilaw.com

Admitted in Wisconsin
Nationwide Practice Limited to Immigration Matters‡ 

‡Representing clients from all states throughout the world. We may be retained to represent you, a family member, a friend, an employer, or an employee regardless of your location because the practice of immigration law is federally regulated and not state specific. Sperry v. Florida, 373 U.S. 379 (1963).

This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in this message. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message from your system.

This exchange of information does not create an attorney-client relationship nor does it constitute legal advice.  The Law Office of Stephen W. Screnci, P.A. expects the recipient will independently evaluate this information in accordance with this disclaimer.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 11:45 AM
To: 'blindlaw at nfbnet.org'
Subject: [blindlaw] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law attorney - Ref#24614188

Volunteer opportunities 

-----Original Message-----
From: sender at lists.bigtent.com [mailto:sender at lists.bigtent.com] On Behalf Of Anonymous
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:00 PM
To: MAMAS Mother Attorneys Mentoring Assoc. of Seattle General Discussion
Subject: [mamas_general] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law attorney - Ref#24614188

Anonymous posted:

A colleague whose son has severe diabetes has passed this along to me.  If you're interested, I'll put you in touch with him.

"The American Diabetes Association is looking for attorney volunteers to help parents if they have issues at school with their diabetic child.  They offer training in D.C. and also offer scholarships to pay for the trip/hotel.  It is very good ADA training and you also get on a mailing list for a large variety of ADA related case law and issues. Very educational and good for networking.  Referrals for Washington State for actual school issues tend to be very low and it usually is just a meeting with the School superintendent to "educate" them on the Federal and State law."

________________________________________
View and comment online: http://www.bigtent.com/group/forum/message/24614188?md=MTE3OTgzMDM=
HINT: When replying by email, please do not include the original message.


________________________________________
You received this email because you (noel.nightingale at ed.gov) are a member of the BigTent group MAMAS Mother Attorneys Mentoring Assoc. of Seattle.

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Unsubscribe or leave this group: https://www.bigtent.com/unsubscribe/11798303?key=w0KPJ2wQbmVZjvnPXZxC%2BMzrsrw1umPHXvbfKtdo1RQ%3D&md=MTE3OTgzMDM=

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From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 15:05:42 2009
From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 08:05:42 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
In-Reply-To: <SNT128-DS1812D3AEB0BA81BF2748ADBBDC0@phx.gbl>
References: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<SNT128-DS1812D3AEB0BA81BF2748ADBBDC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20090926150542.GD22828@yumi.bluecherry.net>

The ScanSnap S1500 has a mere 20 sheet per minute rate.  I'll agree 
that it sounds like it might not be enough.  Another advantage of the 
fi-6140 is that it's got proper SANE drivers.

I don't know if ScanSnap Manager works with a screen reader (if 
someone here can tell me that it does, great!)

I use a ScanSnap on the Mac and love it.  If you don't need the 60 
sheets per minute scanning, it might be just the tool you need.  Just 
remember you're not going to get 60-120 images per minute through OCR 
on pretty much any desktop out there.

Joseph

-- 
How many children in America are not taught how to read?
If they are blind, the answer is 90%--more than 52,000 children!
Find out how you can help: http://www.braille.org/


On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 04:27:25AM -0400, Rod Alcidonis wrote:
>
>Aser, the scanner you are thinking about in my view, is too slow for 
>the type of work you need it for. I would suggest that you go with a 
>much higher-end scanner, like the Fujitsu 6140, and up. Angie has had 
>great success with the ABBYY finereader, I haven't used it but based 
>on her experience, if you can I would add that to the package. Good 
>luck.
>
>Rod Alcidonis, J.D.
>
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>From: "Aser Tolentino" <agtolentino at gmail.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:01 AM
>To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive technology
>>question. I’m a 3L in Northern California, and have been interning 
>>with area
>>DA’s offices. I started out in one office working misdemeanor files; that
>>office paired me with an intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a
>>different office where I helped the felony unit out with research and
>>preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with one of those
>>big office scanners, which I then ran through Kurzweil 1000 OCR. 
>>I’m now at
>>a third office that doesn’t have one of those wonderful multifunction
>>scanners readily at hand and am thinking my Canon flatbed isn’t up to the
>>task when I’m handed a file an inch thick.
>>
>>
>>
>>I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
>>ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I 
>>committed myself
>>though, I figured I’d ask if there was something in the OCR 
>>solutions market
>>that was better/faster: is there something purpose-built to handle 
>>this sort
>>of thing?
>>
>>
>>
>>Any advice, including telling me I’m going about this all wrong (perhaps
>>especially that), would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Aser
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindlaw mailing list
>>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>for blindlaw:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindlaw mailing list
>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com


From daydreamingncolor at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 23:24:51 2009
From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com (Aziza C)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
Message-ID: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,
I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
at his current age?

Thank you.
Aziza Cano
California Association of Blind Students Secretary
Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
Chapter President
Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative


From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 00:48:58 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 00:48:58 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>


Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name of the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
 
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> Hi everyone,
> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> at his current age?
> 
> Thank you.
> Aziza Cano
> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> Chapter President
> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web.  Try  Bing™ now
http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try bing_1x1

From daydreamingncolor at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 00:52:16 2009
From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com (Aziza C)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 17:52:16 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>

Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
label yet?

On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name of
> the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
>
>> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
>> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
>> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
>> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
>> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
>> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
>> at his current age?
>>
>> Thank you.
>> Aziza Cano
>> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
>> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
>> Chapter President
>> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>  		 	   		
> _________________________________________________________________
> Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web.  Try  Bing™ now
> http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
> bing_1x1
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
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>


From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 01:20:51 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 01:20:51 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W20AC15B938B93442857FE5CFD70@phx.gbl>


he can list his home address as the address of the corporation until he has another location
 
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 17:52:16 -0700
> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
> label yet?
> 
> On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name of
> > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
> >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> >>
> >> Hi everyone,
> >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> >> at his current age?
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >> Aziza Cano
> >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> >> Chapter President
> >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> blindlaw mailing list
> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> blindlaw:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
> > http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
> > bing_1x1
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > blindlaw:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Bing™  brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place.   Try it now.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MLOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1

From daydreamingncolor at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 01:25:51 2009
From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com (Aziza C)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 18:25:51 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W20AC15B938B93442857FE5CFD70@phx.gbl>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>
	<632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W20AC15B938B93442857FE5CFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <632092010909261825nebf74cxb26a90cc06caa921@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the information. If you think of anything else that might
be useful, don't hesitate to email me. I appreciate the help.

On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> he can list his home address as the address of the corporation until he has
> another location
>
>> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 17:52:16 -0700
>> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>>
>> Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
>> label yet?
>>
>> On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name
>> > of
>> > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
>> >
>> >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
>> >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
>> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>> >>
>> >> Hi everyone,
>> >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
>> >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
>> >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
>> >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
>> >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
>> >> at his current age?
>> >>
>> >> Thank you.
>> >> Aziza Cano
>> >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
>> >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
>> >> Chapter President
>> >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> blindlaw mailing list
>> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> blindlaw:
>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
>> > http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
>> > bing_1x1
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > blindlaw mailing list
>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > blindlaw:
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>  		 	   		
> _________________________________________________________________
> Bing™  brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place.   Try it
> now.
> http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MLOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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From roddj12 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 02:58:38 2009
From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 22:58:38 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT128-DS193FDFD1ECCD5FD7135328BBD70@phx.gbl>


Minors aren't permitted to enter into valid contracts. A contract entered 
into with a minor is only enforceable against the other party, not against 
the minor.
Rod Alcidonis, J.D.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 7:24 PM
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors

> Hi everyone,
> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> at his current age?
>
> Thank you.
> Aziza Cano
> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> Chapter President
> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com
> 


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Sep 27 03:04:39 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:04:39 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>
	<632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <88CF2AADE5E147408ECA588F92C9D411@spike>

What would pose more of a problem is that a minor unless they are 
emancipated does not have the capacity to enter in to any legal contracts 
that are binding in most states.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors


Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
label yet?

On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name of
> the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
>
>> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
>> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
>> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
>> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
>> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
>> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
>> at his current age?
>>
>> Thank you.
>> Aziza Cano
>> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
>> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
>> Chapter President
>> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web.  Try  Bing™ now
> http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
> bing_1x1
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 




From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 03:39:03 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 03:39:03 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <88CF2AADE5E147408ECA588F92C9D411@spike>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>
	<632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>


ah but if he incorporates then it is the corporation entering into the contract, not him, and a minor can enter intoa contract as an a- hehgent of a company. otherwise when you didnt return your movies to blockbuster on time you could say oh we dont have a valid contract. I would say ncorporate and list another person as swell as him as owner and management of the company, and then once he turns 18 they can just hand oer total owenership to him. He could even say they only owned like 5% of the company if he was worried about themt rying to take control of the cmpany.
 
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:04:39 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> What would pose more of a problem is that a minor unless they are 
> emancipated does not have the capacity to enter in to any legal contracts 
> that are binding in most states.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> 
> Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
> label yet?
> 
> On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name of
> > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
> >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> >>
> >> Hi everyone,
> >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> >> at his current age?
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >> Aziza Cano
> >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> >> Chapter President
> >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> blindlaw mailing list
> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> blindlaw:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
> > http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
> > bing_1x1
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > blindlaw:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290

From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 03:44:22 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 22:44:22 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>	<632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <014101ca3f24$cfa32ab0$6ee98010$@com>

I agree with Tim.  I've seen it done that way before.

Also, I'm not sure how far reaching this is but I was under the impression
that a contract that was entered into by a minor became enforceable when
they acted upon it.  Example, when minors sign up for the BMG music catalog.
If they never make an initial payment, it is not enforceable.  If they make
one payment, it is enforceable.  I knew this to be the law in Texas a few
years back but am not sure if it has changed or if I was mistaken.

Can someone who knows Texas law clarify that for me?

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tim Shaw
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 10:39 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors


ah but if he incorporates then it is the corporation entering into the
contract, not him, and a minor can enter intoa contract as an a- hehgent of
a company. otherwise when you didnt return your movies to blockbuster on
time you could say oh we dont have a valid contract. I would say ncorporate
and list another person as swell as him as owner and management of the
company, and then once he turns 18 they can just hand oer total owenership
to him. He could even say they only owned like 5% of the company if he was
worried about themt rying to take control of the cmpany.
 
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:04:39 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> What would pose more of a problem is that a minor unless they are 
> emancipated does not have the capacity to enter in to any legal contracts 
> that are binding in most states.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> 
> Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
> label yet?
> 
> On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name
of
> > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
> >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> >>
> >> Hi everyone,
> >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> >> at his current age?
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >> Aziza Cano
> >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> >> Chapter President
> >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> blindlaw mailing list
> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> blindlaw:
> >>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot
mail.com
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try BingT now
> >
http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_t
ry
> > bing_1x1
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > blindlaw:
> >
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%
40gmail.com
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot
mail.com
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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blindlaw:
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il.com



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Sep 27 03:53:34 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:53:34 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl><632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3AA43CE8D8A74743BB9315C77C5DF6C5@spike>

A minor does not have the capacity to be an agent of a corporation. This is 
why many companies will require that when a minor receives or requests a 
service such your example of renting movies a parent's name is on the 
account as they are actually liable for the incurred fees or fines.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors



ah but if he incorporates then it is the corporation entering into the 
contract, not him, and a minor can enter intoa contract as an a- hehgent of 
a company. otherwise when you didnt return your movies to blockbuster on 
time you could say oh we dont have a valid contract. I would say ncorporate 
and list another person as swell as him as owner and management of the 
company, and then once he turns 18 they can just hand oer total owenership 
to him. He could even say they only owned like 5% of the company if he was 
worried about themt rying to take control of the cmpany.

> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:04:39 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>
> What would pose more of a problem is that a minor unless they are
> emancipated does not have the capacity to enter in to any legal contracts
> that are binding in most states.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>
>
> Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
> label yet?
>
> On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name 
> > of
> > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
> >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> >>
> >> Hi everyone,
> >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> >> at his current age?
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >> Aziza Cano
> >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> >> Chapter President
> >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> blindlaw mailing list
> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> blindlaw:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
> > http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
> > bing_1x1
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > blindlaw:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC thatÂ’s right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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From roddj12 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 04:24:00 2009
From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 00:24:00 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <3AA43CE8D8A74743BB9315C77C5DF6C5@spike>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl><632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>
	<3AA43CE8D8A74743BB9315C77C5DF6C5@spike>
Message-ID: <SNT128-DS1996AA34C2572C6DC8F0B4BBD70@phx.gbl>


Chuck:

Be careful. You are mixing different bodies of law here. Under an agency 
theory, a minor may not be able to serve as an agent of a corporation. Tim, 
on the other hand, is refering to the laws of incorpiration, which goes to 
the formation of a corporate entity. Having now thought about it, I think 
Tim is right.

Rod Alcidonis, J.D.


--------------------------------------------------
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 11:53 PM
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors

> A minor does not have the capacity to be an agent of a corporation. This 
> is why many companies will require that when a minor receives or requests 
> a service such your example of renting movies a parent's name is on the 
> account as they are actually liable for the incurred fees or fines.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 8:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>
>
>
> ah but if he incorporates then it is the corporation entering into the 
> contract, not him, and a minor can enter intoa contract as an a- hehgent 
> of a company. otherwise when you didnt return your movies to blockbuster 
> on time you could say oh we dont have a valid contract. I would say 
> ncorporate and list another person as swell as him as owner and management 
> of the company, and then once he turns 18 they can just hand oer total 
> owenership to him. He could even say they only owned like 5% of the 
> company if he was worried about themt rying to take control of the cmpany.
>
>> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:04:39 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>>
>> What would pose more of a problem is that a minor unless they are
>> emancipated does not have the capacity to enter in to any legal contracts
>> that are binding in most states.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>>
>>
>> Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
>> label yet?
>>
>> On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name 
>> > of
>> > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
>> >
>> >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
>> >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
>> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>> >>
>> >> Hi everyone,
>> >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
>> >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
>> >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
>> >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
>> >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
>> >> at his current age?
>> >>
>> >> Thank you.
>> >> Aziza Cano
>> >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
>> >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
>> >> Chapter President
>> >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> blindlaw mailing list
>> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> blindlaw:
>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
>> > http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
>> > bing_1x1
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > blindlaw mailing list
>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > blindlaw:
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC thatÂ’s right for you.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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>
>
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> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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> 


From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 05:09:03 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 05:09:03 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <3AA43CE8D8A74743BB9315C77C5DF6C5@spike>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl><632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W2671321C7216DE4EB8EB49CFD70@phx.gbl>


I wasnt referring to the minor I was referring them as the one setting up the account at the movie rental store on behalf of the company, renting the movies to the customer, etc. There in fact they ARE acting as the agent of the company in the transation and agreement.
 
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:53:34 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> A minor does not have the capacity to be an agent of a corporation. This is 
> why many companies will require that when a minor receives or requests a 
> service such your example of renting movies a parent's name is on the 
> account as they are actually liable for the incurred fees or fines.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 8:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> 
> 
> ah but if he incorporates then it is the corporation entering into the 
> contract, not him, and a minor can enter intoa contract as an a- hehgent of 
> a company. otherwise when you didnt return your movies to blockbuster on 
> time you could say oh we dont have a valid contract. I would say ncorporate 
> and list another person as swell as him as owner and management of the 
> company, and then once he turns 18 they can just hand oer total owenership 
> to him. He could even say they only owned like 5% of the company if he was 
> worried about themt rying to take control of the cmpany.
> 
> > From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:04:39 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> >
> > What would pose more of a problem is that a minor unless they are
> > emancipated does not have the capacity to enter in to any legal contracts
> > that are binding in most states.
> > Chuck
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
> > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> >
> >
> > Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
> > label yet?
> >
> > On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name 
> > > of
> > > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
> > >
> > >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
> > >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> > >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> > >>
> > >> Hi everyone,
> > >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> > >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> > >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> > >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> > >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> > >> at his current age?
> > >>
> > >> Thank you.
> > >> Aziza Cano
> > >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> > >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> > >> Chapter President
> > >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> blindlaw mailing list
> > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > >> blindlaw:
> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
> > > http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
> > > bing_1x1
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > blindlaw mailing list
> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > blindlaw:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > blindlaw:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> > blindlaw:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009

From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 19:37:34 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:37:34 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
Message-ID: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>

Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm.  There was a pre-interview
questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
appointment.  I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
attorney.  On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, vision,
etc.

 

As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation.  The banter back
and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.

 

My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we have
to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA?  I was under the assumption
that we do to cover ourselves.  I was curious since the question was posed
on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.

 

Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
regarding disability.  I'm simply asking for future reference.


From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 20:49:31 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 20:49:31 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
In-Reply-To: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W22D274ED02A6657F9EF762CFD70@phx.gbl>


You have to bring it up. I am guessing, and its just a guess, that that questioning on the form is for some non selection related reason such as statistics, or they could contract with the government in some capacity at which point hiring disabled individuals cangive them a leg up.
 
> From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:37:34 -0500
> Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
> 
> Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm. There was a pre-interview
> questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
> appointment. I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
> attorney. On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, vision,
> etc.
> 
> 
> 
> As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
> discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
> interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation. The banter back
> and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.
> 
> 
> 
> My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we have
> to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA? I was under the assumption
> that we do to cover ourselves. I was curious since the question was posed
> on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
> not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.
> 
> 
> 
> Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
> regarding disability. I'm simply asking for future reference.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290

From dandrews at visi.com  Sun Sep 27 21:42:20 2009
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:42:20 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
In-Reply-To: <330F7707970647FC9687A04774628A51@Rufus>
References: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<330F7707970647FC9687A04774628A51@Rufus>
Message-ID: <auto-000120651135@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Some people are mixing up apples and oranges, so to say.  There are 
two issues, the scanner, and the OCR software.  The scanner takes a 
picture of a document, and the software processes that picture 
turning it into words.  Given a fast computer with lots of memory, 
the thing that makes the most difference is the scanner.  You can get 
a slow one for $100, but a really fast industrial-strength one will 
be thousands of dollars.

Dave

At 08:25 AM 9/22/2009, you wrote:
>Don't use Kurzweil.  ABBYY Finereader or OmniPro are both commercial , less
>expensive and a lot better.
>
>Joe Orozco
>
>"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
>crowd."--Max Lucado
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aser Tolentino
>Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:01 AM
>To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
>
>Hi All,
>
>This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive
>technology question. I'm a 3L in Northern California, and have
>been interning with area DA's offices. I started out in one
>office working misdemeanor files; that office paired me with an
>intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a different office
>where I helped the felony unit out with research and
>preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with
>one of those big office scanners, which I then ran through
>Kurzweil 1000 OCR. I'm now at a third office that doesn't have
>one of those wonderful multifunction scanners readily at hand
>and am thinking my Canon flatbed isn't up to the task when I'm
>handed a file an inch thick.
>
>
>
>I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
>ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I
>committed myself though, I figured I'd ask if there was
>something in the OCR solutions market that was better/faster:
>is there something purpose-built to handle this sort of thing?
>
>
>
>Any advice, including telling me I'm going about this all wrong
>(perhaps especially that), would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Aser
>_______________________________________________
>blindlaw mailing list
>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>info for blindlaw:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
>co%40gmail.com
>
>
>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of
>virus signature database 4447 (20090922) __________
>
>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
>database 4447 (20090922) __________
>
>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindlaw mailing list
>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindlaw:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com
>
>
>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>signature database 4448 (20090922) __________
>
>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
>http://www.eset.com



From dandrews at visi.com  Sun Sep 27 21:51:18 2009
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:51:18 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W22D274ED02A6657F9EF762CFD70@phx.gbl>
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
	<BAY139-W22D274ED02A6657F9EF762CFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <auto-000120651526@mailfront2.g2host.com>

You are assuming that the questions on the form are there for proper 
and legal reasons.  It isn't necessarily so!

Dave

At 03:49 PM 9/27/2009, you wrote:

>You have to bring it up. I am guessing, and its just a guess, that 
>that questioning on the form is for some non selection related 
>reason such as statistics, or they could contract with the 
>government in some capacity at which point hiring disabled 
>individuals cangive them a leg up.
>
> > From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com
> > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:37:34 -0500
> > Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
> >
> > Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm. There was a pre-interview
> > questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
> > appointment. I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
> > attorney. On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, vision,
> > etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
> > discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
> > interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation. The banter back
> > and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.
> >
> >
> >
> > My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or 
> do we have
> > to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA? I was under the assumption
> > that we do to cover ourselves. I was curious since the question was posed
> > on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
> > not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.
> >
> >
> >
> > Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
> > regarding disability. I'm simply asking for future reference.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for blindlaw:
> > 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.
>http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
>_______________________________________________
>blindlaw mailing list
>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindlaw:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com
>
>
>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>signature database 4462 (20090927) __________
>
>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
>http://www.eset.com



From rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com  Mon Sep 28 01:42:36 2009
From: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com (ray wayne)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:42:36 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
In-Reply-To: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
Message-ID: <20090928014236.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com>

In what universe are these people practicing law?  Those questions are illegal in this one, unless they are job-related, and they are not in this instance. 

Ray Wayne



----- Original Message -----
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'Ationfbnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Date: Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 16:28:42
Subject: [bllaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire

>
>
> Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm.  There was a pre-interview
> questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
> appointment.  I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
> attorney.  On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, vision,
> etc.
> 
>  
> 
> As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
> discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
> interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation.  The banter back
> and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.
> 
>  
> 
> My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we have
> to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA?  I was under the assumption
> that we do to cover ourselves.  I was curious since the question was posed
> on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
> not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.
> 
>  
> 
> Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
> regarding disability.  I'm simply asking for future reference.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> bllaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for bllaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com


From keith-vick at msn.com  Mon Sep 28 03:42:52 2009
From: keith-vick at msn.com (Keith Vick)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:42:52 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
In-Reply-To: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
Message-ID: <BLU137-DS792DD488FA03B7111E63E84D60@phx.gbl>

I have even worse horror stories than yours.  If you are curious, please
feel free to contact me offline.  




-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 3:38 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire

Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm.  There was a pre-interview
questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
appointment.  I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
attorney.  On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, vision,
etc.

 

As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation.  The banter back
and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.

 

My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we have
to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA?  I was under the assumption
that we do to cover ourselves.  I was curious since the question was posed
on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.

 

Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
regarding disability.  I'm simply asking for future reference.

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/keith-vick%40msn.c
om



From keith-vick at msn.com  Mon Sep 28 04:14:52 2009
From: keith-vick at msn.com (Keith Vick)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 00:14:52 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
In-Reply-To: <20090928014236.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com>
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
	<20090928014236.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BLU137-DS75F887A2985551085A17184D60@phx.gbl>

Probably the universe in which agencies are not enforcing the laws - like
our present one.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ray wayne
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 9:43 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire

In what universe are these people practicing law?  Those questions are
illegal in this one, unless they are job-related, and they are not in this
instance. 

Ray Wayne



----- Original Message -----
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'Ationfbnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Date: Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 16:28:42
Subject: [bllaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire

>
>
> Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm.  There was a
pre-interview
> questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
> appointment.  I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
> attorney.  On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing,
vision,
> etc.
> 
>  
> 
> As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
> discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
> interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation.  The banter
back
> and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.
> 
>  
> 
> My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we
have
> to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA?  I was under the assumption
> that we do to cover ourselves.  I was curious since the question was posed
> on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
> not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.
> 
>  
> 
> Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
> regarding disability.  I'm simply asking for future reference.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> bllaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
bllaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c
om

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/keith-vick%40msn.c
om



From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Mon Sep 28 15:34:26 2009
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:34:26 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
Message-ID: <476D8F332AA84AD3B08D80272F89F8BB@labarre>

A preinterview questionaire as you have described is patently unlawful.  If, 
however, the information is being gathered on a confidential and voluntary 
basis, it may not be unlawful.  As we like to say, it all depends.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:37 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire


> Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm.  There was a 
> pre-interview
> questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
> appointment.  I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
> attorney.  On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, 
> vision,
> etc.
>
>
>
> As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
> discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
> interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation.  The banter 
> back
> and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.
>
>
>
> My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we 
> have
> to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA?  I was under the assumption
> that we do to cover ourselves.  I was curious since the question was posed
> on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
> not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.
>
>
>
> Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
> regarding disability.  I'm simply asking for future reference.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 15:48:31 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:48:31 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
In-Reply-To: <476D8F332AA84AD3B08D80272F89F8BB@labarre>
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
	<476D8F332AA84AD3B08D80272F89F8BB@labarre>
Message-ID: <009301ca4053$25360180$6fa20480$@com>

If I had received this questionnaire and been able to actually read it
before the interview, I would have been confused as to what to do.  The
reason I say this is because it had a blurb at the end that said if any
information was falsified, it would affect the interview.  There was nothing
said about the disability questions being voluntary.

How should I handle this if I come across it in the future?  Do I leave that
blank even though I cannot hide the fact that I'm blind.  I know that sounds
silly to some, but I'm really unsure as to how to handle this specific
situation.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:34 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire

A preinterview questionaire as you have described is patently unlawful.  If,

however, the information is being gathered on a confidential and voluntary 
basis, it may not be unlawful.  As we like to say, it all depends.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:37 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire


> Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm.  There was a 
> pre-interview
> questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
> appointment.  I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
> attorney.  On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, 
> vision,
> etc.
>
>
>
> As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
> discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
> interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation.  The banter 
> back
> and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.
>
>
>
> My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we 
> have
> to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA?  I was under the assumption
> that we do to cover ourselves.  I was curious since the question was posed
> on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
> not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.
>
>
>
> Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
> regarding disability.  I'm simply asking for future reference.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarre
law.com
> 



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il.com



From ahuffman6 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 18:14:06 2009
From: ahuffman6 at gmail.com (F. Allen Huffman)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:14:06 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] law school information
Message-ID: <012401ca4067$81888f20$0201a8c0@ALLEN>

            Sarah, I know for a fact the LSAT is available in braile. I am trying to apply for the disability accomadations now so I can get it that way . It is a bit of an arduous process.  Their are alot of forms you have to fill out, They want documentation of special education services and accomadations you recieved inelementary and secondary school and in college. They also want test scores such as your SAT and ACT scores, and  documentation about your accomadations for those tests. Depending on when you took them you may need to pay  a fee to get that information. It takes time to get it all so you may want to start soon. You can go to www.lsac.org and  clikc on the linc for disability accomadations.  Or you can call 215-9681001 and press six to get instructions  on their phone system,  then pres 4 to talk to someone about disability accomadations. They won't consider your request for accomadations  until you actually register for the LSAT, but I'd suggest beginning to get the do        cumentation now, before you register. It can take time, and if you get it now you won't be in the position I was in of having registered for the test, paid the fee , but then  not being able to take it because you didn't apply for the accomadations in time. As far as prep mateerial, their is an electronic study guide made by a company called mometrix media. You can google the name and you should find them. The study  gide  costs about 50 dollars. They told me it works with  job access with speech (jaws) and they sent me a sample page that appears to read ok. Just thought it might be something to chekc in to. 

From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 20:40:03 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:40:03 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
Message-ID: <00dd01ca407b$df268880$9d739980$@com>

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording below.  The
questions about hearing and vision impairments were not voluntary questions
and the wording below is what needed to be signed.  Please let me know your
thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS APPLICATION. I
UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE
FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO
DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND
SALARY. BE TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 21:36:55 2009
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:36:55 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <00dd01ca407b$df268880$9d739980$@com>
Message-ID: <7F3D96E906A64EE6B7D7120889E6F21A@Rufus>

This does not directly answer your question, and for that I apologize.  Yet
I remember having to disclose my disability when applying for federal
positions.  The language below in your post sounds a lot like the type of
rhetoric I encountered when applying for said federal positions.  I did not
really felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing.  Is that legal?  I've
seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private sector, but I was a
little appalled when the government itself was putting me in a corner.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording 
below.  The questions about hearing and vision impairments were 
not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to 
be signed.  Please let me know your thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS 
APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF 
FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND 
AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. 
REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE 
TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From keith-vick at msn.com  Mon Sep 28 21:43:42 2009
From: keith-vick at msn.com (Keith Vick)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:43:42 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <00dd01ca407b$df268880$9d739980$@com>
References: <00dd01ca407b$df268880$9d739980$@com>
Message-ID: <BLU137-DS1127D4C525A40A05300B684D60@phx.gbl>

Hi William,

As a preliminary note, the clause is bizarre to me because it is a mixture
of a 'for cause' termination clause and at will employment notice.  If the
firm is retaining you on an 'at will basis' it seems that the " I UNDERSTAND
THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR
DISMISSAL" clause is unnecessary.  Depending on that law of your state, the
'for cause' could be read as abrogating the 'at will' employment doctrine
but I doubt it. 

Regarding the legality of the authorization for investigation and questions
regarding your disability, this EEOC site seems helpful:

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/jobapplicant.html

In pertinent part, the site states that "The ADA prohibits employers from
asking questions that are likely to reveal the existence of a disability
before making a job offer (i.e., the pre-offer period). This prohibition
covers written questionnaires and inquiries made during interviews, as well
as medical examinations. However, such questions and medical examinations
are permitted after extending a job offer but before the individual begins
work (i.e., the post-offer period)."

I would say that a questionnaire that explicitly requires you to provide
information about your disability constitutes "...questions that are likely
to reveal the existence of a disability before making a job offer." 

I do think that some states have a procedure in which employees with
disabilities are required to notify their employers in writing before the
employer's duty to provide reasonable accommodations arises.  But that
doesn't seem to be applicable here since this is a pre-hiring questionnaire
not a post hiring request for accommodations.  Also, it seems the ADA would
preempt any possible state law authorizing such questions - if the law firm
was actually relying on any such state law.  My guess is that there is no
such state law.

As for the actual ADA statute that the EEOC is referring to, I can only
suggest further research on your part.  

Warmest regards,

Keith Vick


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording below.  The
questions about hearing and vision impairments were not voluntary questions
and the wording below is what needed to be signed.  Please let me know your
thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS APPLICATION. I
UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE
FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO
DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND
SALARY. BE TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/keith-vick%40msn.c
om



From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 22:05:51 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:05:51 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <BLU137-DS1127D4C525A40A05300B684D60@phx.gbl>
References: <00dd01ca407b$df268880$9d739980$@com>
	<BLU137-DS1127D4C525A40A05300B684D60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00ea01ca4087$dcf8dca0$96ea95e0$@com>

Keith,

Thanks for that information.  I really appreciate it.  I had reviewed the
site that you referenced in your e-mail and found it very useful.

I'm thinking after doing all this reading I should get back into labor and
employment law.  This was an area that we never covered in the few years I
worked in the particular area of law.

Thanks again!

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Keith Vick
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:44 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Hi William,

As a preliminary note, the clause is bizarre to me because it is a mixture
of a 'for cause' termination clause and at will employment notice.  If the
firm is retaining you on an 'at will basis' it seems that the " I UNDERSTAND
THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR
DISMISSAL" clause is unnecessary.  Depending on that law of your state, the
'for cause' could be read as abrogating the 'at will' employment doctrine
but I doubt it. 

Regarding the legality of the authorization for investigation and questions
regarding your disability, this EEOC site seems helpful:

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/jobapplicant.html

In pertinent part, the site states that "The ADA prohibits employers from
asking questions that are likely to reveal the existence of a disability
before making a job offer (i.e., the pre-offer period). This prohibition
covers written questionnaires and inquiries made during interviews, as well
as medical examinations. However, such questions and medical examinations
are permitted after extending a job offer but before the individual begins
work (i.e., the post-offer period)."

I would say that a questionnaire that explicitly requires you to provide
information about your disability constitutes "...questions that are likely
to reveal the existence of a disability before making a job offer." 

I do think that some states have a procedure in which employees with
disabilities are required to notify their employers in writing before the
employer's duty to provide reasonable accommodations arises.  But that
doesn't seem to be applicable here since this is a pre-hiring questionnaire
not a post hiring request for accommodations.  Also, it seems the ADA would
preempt any possible state law authorizing such questions - if the law firm
was actually relying on any such state law.  My guess is that there is no
such state law.

As for the actual ADA statute that the EEOC is referring to, I can only
suggest further research on your part.  

Warmest regards,

Keith Vick


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording below.  The
questions about hearing and vision impairments were not voluntary questions
and the wording below is what needed to be signed.  Please let me know your
thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS APPLICATION. I
UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE
FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO
DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND
SALARY. BE TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/keith-vick%40msn.c
om


_______________________________________________
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blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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il.com



From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 22:09:37 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:09:37 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <7F3D96E906A64EE6B7D7120889E6F21A@Rufus>
References: <00dd01ca407b$df268880$9d739980$@com>
	<7F3D96E906A64EE6B7D7120889E6F21A@Rufus>
Message-ID: <00eb01ca4088$60848d30$218da790$@com>

Joe,

I've experienced that with the government applications that I've reviewed as
well.  Where they "get" you at is that they say the positions are priority
placement, or whatever term they use.  For instance, the DOJ within the past
couple months has made a push to hire individuals with disabilities and you
must submit a Schedule A letter so they know to put you n the pile for that
priority placement.

So, it's a bit confusiong as to what to do.  If you truly want the job, you
disclose with the government...but in the private sector, it's not
necessarily good to be asked the questions.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:37 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

This does not directly answer your question, and for that I apologize.  Yet
I remember having to disclose my disability when applying for federal
positions.  The language below in your post sounds a lot like the type of
rhetoric I encountered when applying for said federal positions.  I did not
really felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing.  Is that legal?  I've
seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private sector, but I was a
little appalled when the government itself was putting me in a corner.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording 
below.  The questions about hearing and vision impairments were 
not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to 
be signed.  Please let me know your thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS 
APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF 
FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND 
AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. 
REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE 
TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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il.com



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 04:20:16 2009
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:20:16 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <00eb01ca4088$60848d30$218da790$@com>
Message-ID: <37E0056E89B44AA0B3C3839138059825@Rufus>

Well I mean if I'm using Schedule A to apply, I think they have the right to
ask me what disability I'm claiming.  If, however, I'm applying in the
general pool, I don't think it's any of their business.  As I told Keith
off-list, I did get some interviews, and so I won't say my disclosure closed
off opportunities, but since it is not part of a line of questioning that is
optional I felt just a wee bit annoyed with Big Brother asking me to be
honest about whether or not I had an impairment.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:10 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Joe,

I've experienced that with the government applications that 
I've reviewed as well.  Where they "get" you at is that they 
say the positions are priority placement, or whatever term they 
use.  For instance, the DOJ within the past couple months has 
made a push to hire individuals with disabilities and you must 
submit a Schedule A letter so they know to put you n the pile 
for that priority placement.

So, it's a bit confusiong as to what to do.  If you truly want 
the job, you disclose with the government...but in the private 
sector, it's not necessarily good to be asked the questions.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:37 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

This does not directly answer your question, and for that I 
apologize.  Yet I remember having to disclose my disability 
when applying for federal positions.  The language below in 
your post sounds a lot like the type of rhetoric I encountered 
when applying for said federal positions.  I did not really 
felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing.  Is that legal? 
 I've seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private 
sector, but I was a little appalled when the government itself 
was putting me in a corner.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on 
the crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording 
below.  The questions about hearing and vision impairments were 
not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to 
be signed.  Please let me know your thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS 
APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF 
FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND 
AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. 
REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE 
TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature
database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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erse08%40gma
il.com


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
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info for blindlaw:
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co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 05:22:34 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:22:34 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <37E0056E89B44AA0B3C3839138059825@Rufus>
References: <00eb01ca4088$60848d30$218da790$@com>
	<37E0056E89B44AA0B3C3839138059825@Rufus>
Message-ID: <000901ca40c4$de3b5b00$9ab21100$@com>

I'm not quite sure how I really feel about the government asking.  It's a
bit strange for me because I'm having such a difficult time in the private
sector finding employment, that I'm almost readily willing to file the
Schedule A so I can get an upper hand (or so they say) in obtaining
employment.

I'm not sure how many blind paralegals there are in the list, but I don't
know of many and it seems like attorneys in my part of the world are really
loathe to hire a blind paralegal.  It seems like they have never seen one of
us before.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:20 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Well I mean if I'm using Schedule A to apply, I think they have the right to
ask me what disability I'm claiming.  If, however, I'm applying in the
general pool, I don't think it's any of their business.  As I told Keith
off-list, I did get some interviews, and so I won't say my disclosure closed
off opportunities, but since it is not part of a line of questioning that is
optional I felt just a wee bit annoyed with Big Brother asking me to be
honest about whether or not I had an impairment.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:10 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Joe,

I've experienced that with the government applications that 
I've reviewed as well.  Where they "get" you at is that they 
say the positions are priority placement, or whatever term they 
use.  For instance, the DOJ within the past couple months has 
made a push to hire individuals with disabilities and you must 
submit a Schedule A letter so they know to put you n the pile 
for that priority placement.

So, it's a bit confusiong as to what to do.  If you truly want 
the job, you disclose with the government...but in the private 
sector, it's not necessarily good to be asked the questions.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:37 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

This does not directly answer your question, and for that I 
apologize.  Yet I remember having to disclose my disability 
when applying for federal positions.  The language below in 
your post sounds a lot like the type of rhetoric I encountered 
when applying for said federal positions.  I did not really 
felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing.  Is that legal? 
 I've seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private 
sector, but I was a little appalled when the government itself 
was putting me in a corner.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on 
the crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording 
below.  The questions about hearing and vision impairments were 
not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to 
be signed.  Please let me know your thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS 
APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF 
FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND 
AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. 
REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE 
TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

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http://www.eset.com
 
 

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virus signature
database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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_______________________________________________
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From craig.borne at dot.gov  Tue Sep 29 12:16:29 2009
From: craig.borne at dot.gov (craig.borne at dot.gov)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:16:29 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Vacancy announcement: Paralegal for C10
Message-ID: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E75E2EB@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov>

 

Dear Colleagues:

 

Our office has a vacancy announcement for a Paralegal Specialist
(Ethics) GS-9/11 which closes on October 7th.  Please see the link below
for further details.

 

Thanks,

 

Brenda J. Gilliam

Office of the General Counsel (C-18)

Office of the Secretary

US Department of Transportation

1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE, W94-205

Washington, DC  20590

(202) 366-6984 (Voice)

(202) 366-9170 (Facsimile)

 

Note: This email and any attached electronic documents are intended for
the sole use of the individual and entity to whom it is addressed, and
may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from
disclosure under applicable law.  If you are not the intended recipient,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
duplication of this transmission by anyone or to anyone other than the
intended addressee, or their designated agent, is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the
sender by return email or on (202) 366-6984.

 

 

 

 

________________________________

From: Kaleta, Judy (OST) 
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 12:15 PM
To: Angermann, Bonnie (OST); Arsenlis, Maria (OST); Carlson, Terence
(OST); Gilliam, Brenda (OST); Hearns, Marilyn (OST); Huezo, Hector
(OST); Kaufman, Fern (OST); Langan-Feirson, MaryKay (OST); Moore,
Kimberly (OST); Register, Bill (OST); Rosen, Debra (OST)
Subject: Vacancy announcement: Paralegal for C10

Follow the link below to the vacancy announcement. The announcement
closes on October 7.  

 

http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=83544163&JobTitle=Paralegal
+Specialist+(Ethics)%2c+GS-0950-9+%2f+11&jbf574=TD*&FedEmp=N&FedPub=Y&vw
=d&re=0&caller=basic.aspx&pg=1&cnme=20590&rad=10&rad_units=miles&rfn=1&A
VSDM=2009-09-23+00%3a03%3a00

 

 

Judith S. Kaleta

Assistant General Counsel for General Law

U.S. Department of Transportation

W94-306

1200 New Jersey Avenue, S.E.

Washington, DC 20590

 


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep 29 13:41:34 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 06:41:34 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <000901ca40c4$de3b5b00$9ab21100$@com>
References: <00eb01ca4088$60848d30$218da790$@com><37E0056E89B44AA0B3C3839138059825@Rufus>
	<000901ca40c4$de3b5b00$9ab21100$@com>
Message-ID: <21E6420546F745E6B6CC7575AD50EBEC@spike>

that's very true, many attorneys that I come in contact with are very 
surprised that i'm a blind paralegal and I constantly have to explain to 
them how I perform various tasks. As far as applying with the Schedule A for 
the government you got to do whatever it takes to get a job in today's job 
market and if means disclosing a disability you do it as an attempt to get 
hired. If there are ramifications as a result of disclosure that becomes 
another issue that can be dealt with through legal channels.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2


> I'm not quite sure how I really feel about the government asking.  It's a
> bit strange for me because I'm having such a difficult time in the private
> sector finding employment, that I'm almost readily willing to file the
> Schedule A so I can get an upper hand (or so they say) in obtaining
> employment.
>
> I'm not sure how many blind paralegals there are in the list, but I don't
> know of many and it seems like attorneys in my part of the world are 
> really
> loathe to hire a blind paralegal.  It seems like they have never seen one 
> of
> us before.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:20 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
>
> Well I mean if I'm using Schedule A to apply, I think they have the right 
> to
> ask me what disability I'm claiming.  If, however, I'm applying in the
> general pool, I don't think it's any of their business.  As I told Keith
> off-list, I did get some interviews, and so I won't say my disclosure 
> closed
> off opportunities, but since it is not part of a line of questioning that 
> is
> optional I felt just a wee bit annoyed with Big Brother asking me to be
> honest about whether or not I had an impairment.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:10 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
>
> Joe,
>
> I've experienced that with the government applications that
> I've reviewed as well.  Where they "get" you at is that they
> say the positions are priority placement, or whatever term they
> use.  For instance, the DOJ within the past couple months has
> made a push to hire individuals with disabilities and you must
> submit a Schedule A letter so they know to put you n the pile
> for that priority placement.
>
> So, it's a bit confusiong as to what to do.  If you truly want
> the job, you disclose with the government...but in the private
> sector, it's not necessarily good to be asked the questions.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:37 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
>
> This does not directly answer your question, and for that I
> apologize.  Yet I remember having to disclose my disability
> when applying for federal positions.  The language below in
> your post sounds a lot like the type of rhetoric I encountered
> when applying for said federal positions.  I did not really
> felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing.  Is that legal?
> I've seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private
> sector, but I was a little appalled when the government itself
> was putting me in a corner.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on
> the crowd."--Max Lucado
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording
> below.  The questions about hearing and vision impairments were
> not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to
> be signed.  Please let me know your thoughts about this language.
>
>
>
> Statement reads:
>
>
>
> I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS
> APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF
> FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND
> AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY.
> REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE
> TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
> co%40gmail.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of
> virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of
> virus signature
> database 4465 (20090928) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniv
> erse08%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
> co%40gmail.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of
> virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature
> database 4465 (20090928) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 29 15:40:00 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:40:00 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <37E0056E89B44AA0B3C3839138059825@Rufus>
References: <00eb01ca4088$60848d30$218da790$@com>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W9AE41AA7953BFAE0CE347CFD50@phx.gbl>


Well one benefit of discolsing to the govenment is they can call up their agency in charge of accomodations for civilian personnel and get a better understanding of your disability. A group taht form my experience is very supportive. So therefore they have alot clearer image instead of going on misconceptions they may have jsut because of ignorance.
 
> From: jsorozco at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:20:16 -0400
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> Well I mean if I'm using Schedule A to apply, I think they have the right to
> ask me what disability I'm claiming. If, however, I'm applying in the
> general pool, I don't think it's any of their business. As I told Keith
> off-list, I did get some interviews, and so I won't say my disclosure closed
> off opportunities, but since it is not part of a line of questioning that is
> optional I felt just a wee bit annoyed with Big Brother asking me to be
> honest about whether or not I had an impairment.
> 
> Joe Orozco
> 
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:10 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> Joe,
> 
> I've experienced that with the government applications that 
> I've reviewed as well. Where they "get" you at is that they 
> say the positions are priority placement, or whatever term they 
> use. For instance, the DOJ within the past couple months has 
> made a push to hire individuals with disabilities and you must 
> submit a Schedule A letter so they know to put you n the pile 
> for that priority placement.
> 
> So, it's a bit confusiong as to what to do. If you truly want 
> the job, you disclose with the government...but in the private 
> sector, it's not necessarily good to be asked the questions.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:37 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> This does not directly answer your question, and for that I 
> apologize. Yet I remember having to disclose my disability 
> when applying for federal positions. The language below in 
> your post sounds a lot like the type of rhetoric I encountered 
> when applying for said federal positions. I did not really 
> felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing. Is that legal? 
> I've seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private 
> sector, but I was a little appalled when the government itself 
> was putting me in a corner.
> 
> Joe Orozco
> 
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on 
> the crowd."--Max Lucado 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> Folks,
> 
> 
> 
> I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording 
> below. The questions about hearing and vision impairments were 
> not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to 
> be signed. Please let me know your thoughts about this language.
> 
> 
> 
> Statement reads:
> 
> 
> 
> I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS 
> APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF 
> FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND 
> AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. 
> REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE 
> TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
> info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
> co%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
> virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
> virus signature
> database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniv
> erse08%40gma
> il.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
> info for blindlaw:
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> co%40gmail.com
> 
> 
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> virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
 		 	   		  
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From ms at browngold.com  Tue Sep 29 16:13:36 2009
From: ms at browngold.com (Mehgan Sidhu)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:13:36 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] BGL Disability Rights Fellowship
Message-ID: <F0078745BDA1D442B9BA19143FEA66CD47F7C6DD45@BALT-X1-EXCH01.BGL.root>

Dear All,

Brown, Goldstein & Levy is pleased to announce that we are accepting applications for our second annual disability rights fellowship, to start in September 2010.  I've pasted the announcement below and hope that many of you will apply and spread the word.  Please let me know if you have any questions.

Announcement:

In September 2009, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP welcomed its first disability rights fellow.  We are now accepting applications for next year's fellowship.  The Fellowship offers a recent law-school graduate or judicial clerk (0-3 years out) with a disability the opportunity to participate in all phases of disability rights litigation at our firm in Baltimore, Maryland.  Brown, Goldstein & Levy is a 16-lawyer, Baltimore-based law firm devoted principally to litigation.  The firm has developed a national reputation for its high-profile, high-impact disability rights cases.  The one-year fellowship will begin in September 2010. The application deadline is November 16, 2009.   Please visit our website for additional details about the fellowship and the firm and to download an application: www.browngold.com<http://www.browngold.com/>.


Mehgan Sidhu
Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP
120 East Baltimore Street, Suite 1700
Baltimore, Maryland 21202
410-962-1030 x1324
410-385-0869 (fax)
ms at browngold.com<mailto:ms at browngold.com>
www.browngold.com<http://www.browngold.com/>

Confidentiality Notice

This e-mail may contain confidential information that may also be legally privileged and that is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named above.  If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of the recipient, please be advised that any dissemination or copying of this e-mail, or taking of any action in reliance on the information contained herein, is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify me immediately by use of the reply button, and then delete the e-mail from your system.  Thank you!


From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Tue Sep 29 16:43:39 2009
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 10:43:39 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw:  BGL Disability Rights Fellowship
Message-ID: <6943B7189E1343F680E32C5B404F5BE8@labarre>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mehgan Sidhu" <ms at browngold.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 10:13 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] BGL Disability Rights Fellowship


> Dear All,
>
> Brown, Goldstein & Levy is pleased to announce that we are accepting 
> applications for our second annual disability rights fellowship, to start 
> in September 2010.  I've pasted the announcement below and hope that many 
> of you will apply and spread the word.  Please let me know if you have any 
> questions.
>
> Announcement:
>
> In September 2009, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP welcomed its first 
> disability rights fellow.  We are now accepting applications for next 
> year's fellowship.  The Fellowship offers a recent law-school graduate or 
> judicial clerk (0-3 years out) with a disability the opportunity to 
> participate in all phases of disability rights litigation at our firm in 
> Baltimore, Maryland.  Brown, Goldstein & Levy is a 16-lawyer, 
> Baltimore-based law firm devoted principally to litigation.  The firm has 
> developed a national reputation for its high-profile, high-impact 
> disability rights cases.  The one-year fellowship will begin in September 
> 2010. The application deadline is November 16, 2009.   Please visit our 
> website for additional details about the fellowship and the firm and to 
> download an application: www.browngold.com<http://www.browngold.com/>.
>
>
> Mehgan Sidhu
> Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP
> 120 East Baltimore Street, Suite 1700
> Baltimore, Maryland 21202
> 410-962-1030 x1324
> 410-385-0869 (fax)
> ms at browngold.com<mailto:ms at browngold.com>
> www.browngold.com<http://www.browngold.com/>
>
> Confidentiality Notice
>
> This e-mail may contain confidential information that may also be legally 
> privileged and that is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named 
> above.  If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of 
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From craig.borne at dot.gov  Tue Sep 29 16:46:00 2009
From: craig.borne at dot.gov (craig.borne at dot.gov)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:46:00 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W9AE41AA7953BFAE0CE347CFD50@phx.gbl>
References: <00eb01ca4088$60848d30$218da790$@com>
	<BAY139-W9AE41AA7953BFAE0CE347CFD50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E75E397@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov>

...and don't forget that most Federal agencies have to complete a report
under the EEOC's Management Directive (MD) 715, which analyzes
affirmative employment actions.  One category in the MD-715 is persons
with target or "severe" disabilities, which would include blindness.  

In order to help Federal agencies boost their numbers in this area, many
are very interested in hiring disabled folks.  Besides, Schedule A
hiring is non-competitive, which means the agency doesn't need to go
through all of the HR hiring mess.

Craig

Craig Borne
NHTSA/DOT
(202) 493-0627 
craig.borne at dot.gov
 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Tim Shaw
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:40 AM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2


Well one benefit of discolsing to the govenment is they can call up
their agency in charge of accomodations for civilian personnel and get a
better understanding of your disability. A group taht form my experience
is very supportive. So therefore they have alot clearer image instead of
going on misconceptions they may have jsut because of ignorance.
 
> From: jsorozco at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:20:16 -0400
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> Well I mean if I'm using Schedule A to apply, I think they have the
right to
> ask me what disability I'm claiming. If, however, I'm applying in the
> general pool, I don't think it's any of their business. As I told
Keith
> off-list, I did get some interviews, and so I won't say my disclosure
closed
> off opportunities, but since it is not part of a line of questioning
that is
> optional I felt just a wee bit annoyed with Big Brother asking me to
be
> honest about whether or not I had an impairment.
> 
> Joe Orozco
> 
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:10 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> Joe,
> 
> I've experienced that with the government applications that 
> I've reviewed as well. Where they "get" you at is that they 
> say the positions are priority placement, or whatever term they 
> use. For instance, the DOJ within the past couple months has 
> made a push to hire individuals with disabilities and you must 
> submit a Schedule A letter so they know to put you n the pile 
> for that priority placement.
> 
> So, it's a bit confusiong as to what to do. If you truly want 
> the job, you disclose with the government...but in the private 
> sector, it's not necessarily good to be asked the questions.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:37 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> This does not directly answer your question, and for that I 
> apologize. Yet I remember having to disclose my disability 
> when applying for federal positions. The language below in 
> your post sounds a lot like the type of rhetoric I encountered 
> when applying for said federal positions. I did not really 
> felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing. Is that legal? 
> I've seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private 
> sector, but I was a little appalled when the government itself 
> was putting me in a corner.
> 
> Joe Orozco
> 
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on 
> the crowd."--Max Lucado 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> Folks,
> 
> 
> 
> I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording 
> below. The questions about hearing and vision impairments were 
> not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to 
> be signed. Please let me know your thoughts about this language.
> 
> 
> 
> Statement reads:
> 
> 
> 
> I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS 
> APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF 
> FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND 
> AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. 
> REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE 
> TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
> info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
> co%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
> virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
> virus signature
> database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniv
> erse08%40gma
> il.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
> info for blindlaw:
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> co%40gmail.com
> 
> 
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> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
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signature
> database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%4
0hotmail.com
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail(r) has ever-growing storage! Don't worry about storage limits.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tut
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From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov  Wed Sep 30 14:49:45 2009
From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS))
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 07:49:45 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject)
Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60413E1D9@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov>

Test	Please ignore, I am just testing a distribution rule.


From bjsexton at comcast.net  Wed Sep 30 17:42:02 2009
From: bjsexton at comcast.net (Bruce Sexton Jr.)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:42:02 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject)
References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60413E1D9@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov>
Message-ID: <59E75F8EAB48470BAB9D6E4843DA1648@SLIM>

Hello,

I am enrolled in a LSAT preparation class.  It's going well!  Do any of you 
have tricks you've used to diagram for logical reasoning and or logic games? 
I know Deepa has used a magnet board, but I am interested in how other 
people have diagrammed so that all the information is represented, and all 
connections and inferences can be made.  The teacher is using dashes, arrows 
and offshoots that divide two things, very much like a family tree!  Any 
tips or tricks are greatly appreciated!

Thank You,
Bruce Sexton Jr.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" <Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:49 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject)


> Test Please ignore, I am just testing a distribution rule.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bjsexton%40comcast.net 



From langlois2 at verizon.net  Tue Sep  1 02:34:57 2009
From: langlois2 at verizon.net (Brian Langlois)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:34:57 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Question About Rental Discrimination
References: <000301ca28c4$6e2f38d0$4a8daa70$@com>
	<D9D702557E8C4F2F8BB2F22FDCA7FBAE@spike>	<001401ca2905$d2c631e0$785295a0$@com>
	<AC26D127-41C6-487E-A0E0-8222309D2D03@sbcglobal.net>
	<B1CC07BDFC1B499BB166CFCD318DF66C@barney03>
	<F3711285-9013-4D45-ADD1-0ED926E81905@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <8D9D6AEA8D814A47BB60616C6E72EC95@barney03>

Well, I don't think there's a particular treatment for ignorance.
After all, that is what kept those folks from being accepted as renters.
The fire truck, of course, is a symbol of the idea that blind people are 
unsafe if they live alone.
I believe this particular incident happened back in the late 1950s.
I have no idea of what, if any, protections there were back in those days.

Brian


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Question About Rental Discrimination


> I'm still missing something here; why would a blind person burn the
> house down?  I didn't even know it was legal to privately own a fire
> truck, much less keep on residence. :)  I just don't understand the
> magical thinking that goes on between noting that someone's eyes don't
> work and extrapolating every conceivable disaster possible.  When I
> see a deaf person or a person using a wheelchair, I don't
> automatically start watching out for fires or hurricanes or falling
> bricks; the landlord sounds like he might need to be on meds. :)
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> stone_troll at sbcglobal.net
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/langlois2%40verizon.net


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.73/2338 - Release Date: 08/31/09 
17:52:00




From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep  1 14:37:29 2009
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 07:37:29 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Question About Rental Discrimination
In-Reply-To: <8D9D6AEA8D814A47BB60616C6E72EC95@barney03>
References: <000301ca28c4$6e2f38d0$4a8daa70$@com>
	<D9D702557E8C4F2F8BB2F22FDCA7FBAE@spike>	<001401ca2905$d2c631e0$785295a0$@com>
	<AC26D127-41C6-487E-A0E0-8222309D2D03@sbcglobal.net>
	<B1CC07BDFC1B499BB166CFCD318DF66C@barney03>
	<F3711285-9013-4D45-ADD1-0ED926E81905@sbcglobal.net>
	<8D9D6AEA8D814A47BB60616C6E72EC95@barney03>
Message-ID: <52E46000-CBE7-49B6-88CB-FC92FE31FCF6@sbcglobal.net>

Hi, Brian.  It seems to me that ignorance doesn't account for the  
irrationality and fervor with which people who can see react to those  
who cannot.  It's more like a fear/panic/defensive aggressive  
approach.  I have a theory that the lack of eye contact engages a  
response as old as the limbic system of the brain--fear the stranger  
who does not look at you, for he may be ill or insane or a threat.   
The blind are perceived as a threat, however nebulously.  As CJ  
Cherryh said, "Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity got framed."

Mark BurningHawk
stone_troll at sbcglobal.net
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!




From b75205 at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 15:30:43 2009
From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 10:30:43 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Question About Rental Discrimination
In-Reply-To: <52E46000-CBE7-49B6-88CB-FC92FE31FCF6@sbcglobal.net>
References: <000301ca28c4$6e2f38d0$4a8daa70$@com>
	<D9D702557E8C4F2F8BB2F22FDCA7FBAE@spike>
	<001401ca2905$d2c631e0$785295a0$@com>
	<AC26D127-41C6-487E-A0E0-8222309D2D03@sbcglobal.net>
	<B1CC07BDFC1B499BB166CFCD318DF66C@barney03>
	<F3711285-9013-4D45-ADD1-0ED926E81905@sbcglobal.net>
	<8D9D6AEA8D814A47BB60616C6E72EC95@barney03>
	<52E46000-CBE7-49B6-88CB-FC92FE31FCF6@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <fe5b78280909010830j54f54986g8b23d7071d23b61c@mail.gmail.com>

If this is in Texas, you need to ask what type of shingles are on the roof!
In the 70's and 80's they shingled rooves of apartment houses with Cedar, so
there is a serious fire concern here!  This is the principal reason why
apartments burn in Texas.

And if the landlord was concerned about this, chances are he was assuming
you knew the place had cedar shingles, you see he forgot that you were
blind, that you couldn't see the shingles.  So I think he has a legitmate
concern if he has cedar shingles on the apartment.

James G. Pepper

From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Wed Sep  2 21:59:23 2009
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 16:59:23 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Part-time/Job Share Attorney Position at Microsoft/Job
 share - Ref#21196416
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F83138@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>


Rachel Black posted:

Title:  Attorney
This position is eligible for the following work arrangements:
Part-Time

Looking for some of the most interesting legal work around?  Want to be directly involved in creating excitement around a range of great Microsoft technologies, software and services throughout the world?  If so, Microsoft is looking for you!

The Server and Tools Business (STB) is looking for a part-time experienced attorney to join the Legal and Corporate Affairs (LCA) department at our global headquarters in Redmond, Washington.  STB is a thriving business with approximately US$13 billion in annual revenue.
STB develops and markets products and services that are widely used by enterprises and developer communities, such as Windows Server, SQL Server, Visual Studio, the System Center suite of systems management products and the Forefront suite of security products.

This attorney will work as part of a team to support the Developer and Platform Evangelism (DPE) organization in STB.  DPE is a critical business team that collaborates widely with other product and business teams across STB and Microsoft to evangelize and advance adoption of a broad range of Microsoft technologies, efforts which are critical to Microsoft's success as a platform technology company.  The successful candidate will need to demonstrate ingenuity, drive, and experience needed to devise creative solutions and identify "smart risks" to help achieve business goals.  The attorney will work closely with all levels of Microsoft executives, managers and employees, as well as outside customers and partners.

Primary responsibilities:
-       Work directly with executives and business development,
technology evangelist and marketing teams to analyze and address legal issues across a wide array of customer and partner programs and engagements.
-       Advise executives and other internal business clients on a broad
range of complex and rapidly developing legal and business issues, such as intellectual property (including open source software), interoperability, marketing, competition law and privacy.

-       Structure, draft, negotiate and advise on a wide range of
agreements with global business customers and partners, including agreements for strategic alliances and joint marketing, software development and collaboration, outbound and inbound licenses for software and online services and other customer and partner engagements.
-       Partner with clients to understand and advise on cutting edge
Microsoft business strategy and use of technologies.
-       Collaborate with other attorneys and legal professionals at
Microsoft to resolve cross-group issues and projects efficiently and effectively.

We are looking for an attorney who meets the following basic
requirements:
-       Admitted to practice law in the US.
-       Minimum of 6 years of law firm or relevant in-house experience.
-       Software licensing and marketing experience; familiarity with
competition law a strong plus.
-       Outstanding analytical, organizational, and communication
skills.
-       Working knowledge or strong interest in learning more about
computer software and Internet technologies.
-       Keen business sense, ability to think strategically and focus on
establishing a "trusted advisor" relationship with executives and other business clients.
-       Demonstrated ability to work efficiently, meet demanding
deadlines in a fast-paced environment, prioritize workflow and adjust to frequent workload fluctuations.
-       Strong results orientation and customer focus.
-       Desire and ability to work as part of a team.
-       Demonstrated ability to work independently with limited
supervision, working with a variety of personalities across a large number of diverse internal groups, teams and cultures.
-       Willingness to have fun.

The above description has been designed to indicate the general nature and level of work performed by an employee in this position.  The actual duties, responsibilities and qualifications may vary.  Microsoft is an Equal Opportunity Employer and supports workforce diversity.

Allison Williams  l  Senior Staffing Consultant  l  Microsoft Corporation  l  425.538.7033  l  alliwil at microsoft.com

________________________________________
View and comment online: http://www.bigtent.com/group/forum/message/21196416
HINT: When replying by email, please do not include the original message.



From ERinglein at nfb.org  Thu Sep  3 00:23:10 2009
From: ERinglein at nfb.org (Ringlein,
	Ellen)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:23:10 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Mildred Rivera-Rau featured on A B A web site
Message-ID: <auto-000117050033@mailfront2.g2host.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: KENNETH RINGLEIN [mailto:KENNETH.RINGLEIN at EEOC.GOV]
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 1:52 PM
To: Ringlein, Ellen
Subject: Mildred Rivera-Rau featured on A B A web site

The following profile of Mildred is currently posted on the American Bar
Association web site.

Lawyer Spotlight, September 2009: Mildred A. Rivera-Rau, Esq.

Blind Latina employment lawyer helps promote diversity in the federal
workforce.

With the recent rise of Sonia Sotomayor to the United States Supreme
Court, Mildred A. Rivera-Rau, Esq. has a great deal of which to be
proud. Just like Justice Sotomayor, Millie is a Puerto Rican woman with
a disability who works for the federal government. There are important
differences, however, as Millie makes her impact via the federal
government as an award-winning Attorney Advisor for the U.S. Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission in Washington, DC.

Millie was born legally blind with 20/200 vision in both eyes. After
spending some of her high school years in Puerto Rico, she attended
Cornell University and then the University of Pennsylvania School of
Law. Shortly after taking the bar exam in 1990, she was diagnosed with a
brain disorder that severely impacts her mood without medication. For
the first two years of her career she worked in a large San Francisco
law firm practicing labor and employment law. She was then recruited by
the EEOC and worked as a Trial Attorney in Baltimore for 12 years before
being asked to serve as a Special Assistant to Former EEOC Chair Cari M.
Dominguez.

During her career, she received awards from the EEOC for work on a class
action sexual harassment lawsuit, EEOC disability initiatives, and the
Commission's Spanish-language website, as well as an award from the
Maryland affiliate of the National Federation of the Blind for her
outstanding volunteer activities with blind youth. Millie recently
served a three-year term as a Commissioner for the ABA Commission on
Mental and Physical Disability Law.

Currently, Millie leads a team of EEO Analysts that review federal
agencies' equal employment opportunity programs for compliance and
provide technical assistance. She also analyzes statistics regarding
workforce composition with regard to gender, race, national origin, and
disability status. Basically, she and her team make sure that federal
entities have the programs and policies in place to ensure a
barrier-free workforce. At work she accommodates her disability with a
reader and ZoomText, a software program that enlarges text and serves as
an audible screen reader. She also is permitted to work from home when
necessary.

Becoming an employment lawyer was not a certainty. Before her first
encounter with lawyers in a courtroom during college, Millie did not
think she could be an attorney. "After watching them litigate, I
discovered that lawyers are just regular people doing regular things. I
honestly thought 'Hey, I can do that!'" she noted, "And the same thing
applies to individuals with disabilities: we are just regular people who
are capable of doing regular things. Sometimes people have to simply get
past personal preconceived notions to appreciate the opportunities that
are out there."

When comparing her two roles at the EEOC, litigation and agency
oversight, Millie finds they each have their own unique benefits,
whether for her or the diversity movement. "Litigation was more
fulfilling for me, because I was able to see the result after the
proceedings," she stated, "but on the other hand, agency oversight has
the ability to affect more people across a broader spectrum."
Either way, Millie says she has her dream job.

Web site: http://www.abanet.org/disability/spotlight/sept09.shtml 



From dandrews at visi.com  Fri Sep  4 02:42:49 2009
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:42:49 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
Message-ID: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com>


>
>
> From 
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Textbooks for the Disabled
>
>
>
>August 28, 2009
>
>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>this week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier 
>for blind, dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get 
>specialized textbooks in time for classes.
>
>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>designed to centralize the process by which electronic versions of 
>textbooks are requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. 
>Experts say it will allow disabled students to get their textbooks 
>more efficiently, help colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and 
>protect publishers' copyrights.
>
>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>texts, the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for 
>their courses can be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires 
>that colleges and universities provide disabled students equal 
>access to educational materials, but this is often easier said than 
>done. College officials have to track down and contact the publisher 
>of every textbook that each of its disabled students buys and 
>request an electronic copy. If such a copy exists -- the likelihood 
>shrinks the older the book and the smaller the publisher -- college 
>officials still have to convert the file to a format that can be 
>read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the college 
>has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the book 
>and create its own electronic version.
>
>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>format can be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate 
>director of assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and 
>science texts often arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be 
>easily read by the character-recognition software the university 
>uses to turn them into standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That 
>can take a longer amount of time to process that material internally 
>and turn it around and give that to the student efficiently," he says.
>
>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled 
>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>to have a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study 
>for tests and papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of 
>high-tech training for the California Community Colleges system. "So 
>if the book doesn't come until the term has been in session for 
>three or four weeks, that puts that student very far behind." Some 
>students have sued colleges over such delays, she says.
>
>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>and delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>accessibility affairs at AAP.
>
>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>says McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that 
>out of the transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>
>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should 
>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>with each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>system, the copyright protection agreements can be handled once, 
>during registration, and the requester's bona fides can be verified 
>by a log-in.
>
>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>process the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text 
>sometimes just scan a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of 
>disabled students in a timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>
>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>colleges to convert the same text to a readable format once it is 
>acquired. Currently "numerous schools could be doing the exact same 
>thing, converting the same text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive 
>director for higher education at the publishers' association. Under 
>the new system, "if one school has already spent the time and the 
>money to convert a file to a format, they could advise the 
>AccessText network, which could then make the info available that it 
>was still available in that format, and that school could share it 
>with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the time and 
>resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he says.
>
>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>to develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>phase, which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain 
>itself by billing member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, 
>depending on size.
>
>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the 
>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>lot more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of 
>those books don't come through those big publishers, they come 
>through specialized publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that 
>part of the problem for us."
>
>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>and is recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep  7 17:43:30 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 10:43:30 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>

While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled 
students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register as 
being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for 
producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I 
learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use of 
text materials in an available format. These skills included the supervision 
of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of 
employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in a 
timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that 
materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning to 
find and create available resources and development of increased problem 
solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or otherwise 
lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately 
compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled services 
do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of 
such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with faculty 
members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an employment 
setting.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students


>
>>
>>
>> From 
>> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>
>>
>>
>>August 28, 2009
>>
>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this 
>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind, 
>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized 
>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>
>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed 
>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are 
>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will 
>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help 
>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers' 
>>copyrights.
>>
>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional texts, 
>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses can 
>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and 
>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational 
>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials have 
>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of its 
>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy 
>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the 
>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format 
>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the 
>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the 
>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>
>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format can 
>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of 
>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often 
>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the 
>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into 
>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of 
>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that 
>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>
>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled 
>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to have 
>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests and 
>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for 
>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come 
>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts that 
>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such 
>>delays, she says.
>>
>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and 
>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility 
>>affairs at AAP.
>>
>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says 
>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the 
>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>
>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should 
>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with 
>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, the 
>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration, 
>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>
>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process 
>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just scan 
>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a 
>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>
>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to 
>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently 
>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the same 
>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at 
>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has 
>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they 
>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info 
>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school 
>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the 
>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he 
>>says.
>>
>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to 
>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase, 
>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing 
>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>
>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the 
>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot 
>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those books 
>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized 
>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for us."
>>
>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is 
>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 




From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 17:59:21 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 12:59:21 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>
Message-ID: <004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>

I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact of
the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all know
in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable push
to go paperless in the court system and firms.

I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make an
individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the way
society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really almost
non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
because of my loss of sight.

Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
predominately from a sighted person's perspective.

But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.

It was great reading your comments on this.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled 
students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register as

being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for 
producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I 
learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use of

text materials in an available format. These skills included the supervision

of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of 
employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in a

timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that 
materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning to 
find and create available resources and development of increased problem 
solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or otherwise

lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately 
compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled services

do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of 
such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with faculty 
members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an employment

setting.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students


>
>>
>>
>> From 
>>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>
>>
>>
>>August 28, 2009
>>
>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this 
>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind, 
>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized 
>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>
>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed 
>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are 
>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will 
>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help 
>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers' 
>>copyrights.
>>
>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional texts,

>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses can

>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and 
>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational 
>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials have

>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of its

>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy 
>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the 
>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format 
>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the 
>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the 
>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>
>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format can

>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of 
>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often 
>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the 
>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into 
>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of 
>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that 
>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>
>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled 
>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to have

>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests and

>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for 
>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come 
>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts that

>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such 
>>delays, she says.
>>
>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and 
>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility 
>>affairs at AAP.
>>
>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says 
>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the 
>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>
>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should 
>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with 
>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, the

>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration, 
>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>
>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process 
>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just scan

>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a 
>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>
>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to 
>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently 
>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the same

>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at 
>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has 
>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they 
>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info 
>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school 
>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the 
>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he 
>>says.
>>
>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to 
>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase, 
>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing 
>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>
>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the 
>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot 
>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those books

>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized 
>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for us."
>>
>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is 
>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net 



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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il.com
 

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From k7uij at panix.com  Mon Sep  7 19:23:15 2009
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 12:23:15 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>
	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
Message-ID: <75D254ABDAB94A79BF92AB520D7408F1@owner96190708e>

William:

I don't believe Chuck was objecting to obtaining of electronic texts. 
What he objected to was who did the obtaining.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
of
the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
know
in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
push
to go paperless in the court system and firms.

I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
an
individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
way
society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
almost
non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
because of my loss of sight.

Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
predominately from a sighted person's perspective.

But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
be
able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.

It was great reading your comments on this.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
disabled
students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
register as

being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
use of

text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
supervision

of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
in a

timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
that
materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
to
find and create available resources and development of increased problem
solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
otherwise

lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
services

do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
faculty
members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
employment

setting.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>
>>
>>
>> From
>>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>
>>
>>
>>August 28, 2009
>>
>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>this
>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>blind,
>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>
>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>designed
>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>are
>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>copyrights.
>>
>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>texts,

>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>can

>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>have

>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>its

>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>the
>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>format
>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>
>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>can

>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>often
>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>of
>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>that
>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>
>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>have

>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>and

>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>for
>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>that

>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>delays, she says.
>>
>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>affairs at AAP.
>>
>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>the
>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>
>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>with
>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>the

>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>registration,
>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>
>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>process
>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>scan

>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>a
>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>
>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>to
>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>Currently
>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>same

>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>at
>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>they
>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>the
>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>he
>>says.
>>
>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>billing
>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>
>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>books

>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>us."
>>
>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>is
>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 19:49:26 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 14:49:26 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <75D254ABDAB94A79BF92AB520D7408F1@owner96190708e>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
	<75D254ABDAB94A79BF92AB520D7408F1@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <005e01ca2ff4$52027960$f6076c20$@com>

I realize he wasn't.  I was just making an observation.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 2:23 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

William:

I don't believe Chuck was objecting to obtaining of electronic texts. 
What he objected to was who did the obtaining.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
of
the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
know
in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
push
to go paperless in the court system and firms.

I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
an
individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
way
society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
almost
non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
because of my loss of sight.

Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
predominately from a sighted person's perspective.

But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
be
able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.

It was great reading your comments on this.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
disabled
students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
register as

being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
use of

text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
supervision

of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
in a

timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
that
materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
to
find and create available resources and development of increased problem
solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
otherwise

lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
services

do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
faculty
members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
employment

setting.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>
>>
>>
>> From
>>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>
>>
>>
>>August 28, 2009
>>
>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>this
>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>blind,
>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>
>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>designed
>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>are
>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>copyrights.
>>
>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>texts,

>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>can

>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>have

>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>its

>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>the
>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>format
>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>
>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>can

>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>often
>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>of
>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>that
>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>
>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>have

>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>and

>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>for
>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>that

>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>delays, she says.
>>
>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>affairs at AAP.
>>
>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>the
>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>
>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>with
>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>the

>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>registration,
>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>
>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>process
>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>scan

>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>a
>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>
>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>to
>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>Currently
>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>same

>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>at
>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>they
>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>the
>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>he
>>says.
>>
>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>billing
>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>
>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>books

>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>us."
>>
>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>is
>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net



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signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



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signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



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blindlaw:
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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il.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

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http://www.eset.com
 



From angie.matney at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 21:00:26 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 17:00:26 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <75D254ABDAB94A79BF92AB520D7408F1@owner96190708e>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
	<75D254ABDAB94A79BF92AB520D7408F1@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <4aa5746c.85c2f10a.52e0.021b@mx.google.com>

I see both sides of this. Theoretically, blind students and others who
cannot read standard print shouldn't have to work harder to obtain their
books. But it's a shame that students wait  for weeks and weeks while
colleges seek permission from publishers to scan and disseminate one copy of
a book, particularly when it's relatively easy to do the scanning if you
have the right equipment.

I wonder if more students would do their own scanning if VR or colleges gave
them access to more efficient OCR systems.

Angie



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 3:23 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

William:

I don't believe Chuck was objecting to obtaining of electronic texts. 
What he objected to was who did the obtaining.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
of
the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
know
in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
push
to go paperless in the court system and firms.

I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
an
individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
way
society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
almost
non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
because of my loss of sight.

Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
predominately from a sighted person's perspective.

But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
be
able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.

It was great reading your comments on this.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
disabled
students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
register as

being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
use of

text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
supervision

of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
in a

timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
that
materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
to
find and create available resources and development of increased problem
solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
otherwise

lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
services

do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
faculty
members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
employment

setting.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>
>>
>>
>> From
>>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>
>>
>>
>>August 28, 2009
>>
>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>this
>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>blind,
>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>
>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>designed
>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>are
>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>copyrights.
>>
>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>texts,

>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>can

>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>have

>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>its

>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>the
>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>format
>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>
>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>can

>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>often
>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>of
>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>that
>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>
>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>have

>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>and

>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>for
>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>that

>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>delays, she says.
>>
>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>affairs at AAP.
>>
>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>the
>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>
>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>with
>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>the

>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>registration,
>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>
>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>process
>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>scan

>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>a
>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>
>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>to
>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>Currently
>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>same

>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>at
>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>they
>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>the
>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>he
>>says.
>>
>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>billing
>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>
>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>books

>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>us."
>>
>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>is
>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net



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il.com


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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blindlaw:
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blindlaw:
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il.com



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep  7 21:32:04 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 14:32:04 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>
	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
Message-ID: <BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>

Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make any 
difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with 
the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be doing 
this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted 
students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither 
should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support 
these processes.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact of
> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
> know
> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
> push
> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>
> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
> an
> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
> way
> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really almost
> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
> because of my loss of sight.
>
> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>
> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>
> It was great reading your comments on this.
>
> William
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register 
> as
>
> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use 
> of
>
> text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
> supervision
>
> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in 
> a
>
> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
> to
> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
> otherwise
>
> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
> services
>
> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
> faculty
> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
> employment
>
> setting.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From
>>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>August 28, 2009
>>>
>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this
>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind,
>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>
>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>copyrights.
>>>
>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>>texts,
>
>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>>can
>
>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>>have
>
>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>>its
>
>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format
>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>
>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>>can
>
>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often
>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of
>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that
>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>>have
>
>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>>and
>
>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>>that
>
>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>delays, she says.
>>>
>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>
>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>
>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>>the
>
>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration,
>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>
>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>>scan
>
>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>
>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to
>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently
>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>>same
>
>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the
>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>says.
>>>
>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing
>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>
>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>>books
>
>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>>us."
>>>
>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is
>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
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> il.com
>
>
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> signature
> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
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> signature
> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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> blindlaw:
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From k7uij at panix.com  Mon Sep  7 22:37:34 2009
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 15:37:34 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike><004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
	<BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
Message-ID: <9D12FD3EFB304279922B8E6204E6C858@owner96190708e>

Chuck:

While I agree with completely and this has been NFB's position, we've 
already lost the battle on this one in that courts have ruled that the 
ADA *requires* colleges to provide textbooks. Gets Big Rehab off the 
hook, dontchya know!

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make 
any
difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
with
the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be 
doing
this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
neither
should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
these processes.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>to
> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
> fact of
> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we 
> all
> know
> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a 
> considerable
> push
> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>
> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
> make
> an
> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
> the
> way
> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
> almost
> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
> now
> because of my loss of sight.
>
> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
> had
> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>
> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
> be
> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
> unavailable.
> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>
> It was great reading your comments on this.
>
> William
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
> disabled
> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
> register
> as
>
> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but 
> I
> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
> use
> of
>
> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
> supervision
>
> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
> of
> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
> materials in
> a
>
> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
> that
> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
> learning
> to
> find and create available resources and development of increased 
> problem
> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
> otherwise
>
> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
> services
>
> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
> of
> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
> faculty
> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
> employment
>
> setting.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
> Students
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From
>>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>August 28, 2009
>>>
>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>>this
>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>blind,
>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>
>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>designed
>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>are
>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>copyrights.
>>>
>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>texts,
>
>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>courses
>>>can
>
>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>have
>
>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>of
>>>its
>
>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>the
>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>>format
>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, 
>>>the
>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan 
>>>the
>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>
>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>format
>>>can
>
>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>often
>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>amount of
>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>that
>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>have
>
>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>tests
>>>and
>
>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>for
>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't 
>>>come
>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>that
>
>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>delays, she says.
>>>
>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>and
>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>accessibility
>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>
>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>says
>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>the
>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>
>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>with
>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>system,
>>>the
>
>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>>registration,
>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>
>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>process
>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>scan
>
>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>>a
>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>
>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>colleges to
>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>Currently
>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>same
>
>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>>at
>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>they
>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>>the
>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>>he
>>>says.
>>>
>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>to
>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>phase,
>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>>billing
>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>
>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>lot
>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>books
>
>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>specialized
>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>us."
>>>
>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>and is
>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net


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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindlaw:
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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 23:05:43 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 19:05:43 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
	<BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
Message-ID: <4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>

Hello Chhuck,

Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
"special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
book store, buy a book, and then read it?

It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books when
the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own books
in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
going to be distributed indiscriminantly. 

To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies from
the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
publishers to meet my needs for etexts. 

My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I could
do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make any

difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with 
the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be doing 
this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted 
students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither 
should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support 
these processes.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact of
> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
> know
> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
> push
> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>
> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
> an
> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
> way
> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really almost
> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
> because of my loss of sight.
>
> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>
> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>
> It was great reading your comments on this.
>
> William
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register 
> as
>
> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use 
> of
>
> text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
> supervision
>
> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in

> a
>
> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
> to
> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
> otherwise
>
> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
> services
>
> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
> faculty
> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
> employment
>
> setting.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From
>>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>August 28, 2009
>>>
>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this
>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind,
>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>
>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>copyrights.
>>>
>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>>texts,
>
>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>>can
>
>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>>have
>
>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>>its
>
>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format
>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>
>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>>can
>
>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often
>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of
>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that
>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>>have
>
>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>>and
>
>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>>that
>
>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>delays, she says.
>>>
>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>
>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>
>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>>the
>
>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration,
>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>
>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>>scan
>
>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>
>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to
>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently
>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>>same
>
>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the
>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>says.
>>>
>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing
>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>
>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>>books
>
>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>>us."
>>>
>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is
>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
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> il.com
>
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From mhanson at winternet.com  Mon Sep  7 23:23:33 2009
From: mhanson at winternet.com (Michael O. Hanson)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 18:23:33 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a>

I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to 
whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I thought 
this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and 
other laws covering education of students with disabilities.


Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books 
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies 
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I 
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make 
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be 
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
>> il.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
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> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindlaw:
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> 




From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 23:28:57 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 18:28:57 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
	<BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a>
Message-ID: <009601ca3012$fccbce00$f6636a00$@com>

I'm truly enjoying this conversation.

The laws have been designed to simply give an equal access or opportunity;
not to make it easier or tilted in one side's favor or the other.  There
should be a level playing field, period.

I can understand both sides of the argument, as stated previously, but
prefer to err on the side of simply making the books available for those
students with disabilities.  They are still responsible for the work that
comes with those texts.

Again, I'm enjoying this conversation since I'm fairly new to the blind
world and though independent, find some things to not be as accessible as
they should be.  

Have a great remainder of the Labor Day holiday.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael O. Hanson
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:24 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to 
whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I thought 
this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and 
other laws covering education of students with disabilities.


Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books 
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies 
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I 
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make 
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be 
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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From k7uij at panix.com  Mon Sep  7 23:36:54 2009
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 16:36:54 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
	<BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a>
Message-ID: <587CB2074ADC4637BFCC1A818C977EE7@owner96190708e>

With great respect, I believe we're missing the point when we say 
students should have "identical access". It never was, isn't now and 
never shall be. Why? Because the only way we, the blind, will ever have 
"identical access" is for us to gain or regain sight. For most of us, 
this ain't gonna happen. I believe that all we can realistically expect 
is enough access to do the job. No one ever said blindness wasn't a 
nuisance.

but my thinking on this sort of thing is definitely old-fashioned 
although gentleman such as Steve Jacobson agree with me. And as for 
scanning, man, I'd much rather use a reader than spend time with OCR 
software!

We're all missing the point of Chuck's message, however. And that is 
that once out on the job, it is unlikely that one can get the level of 
accommodation one apparently has a right to these days in college. Is it 
doing a student a favor to get him/her used to a level of provision of 
services he/she will not experience in the world of employment? I think 
not. And this comes home to roost when the frustrated new employee, used 
to what he/she got from the DSS office, howls "discrimination" when, in 
fact, it isn't discrimination but just the real world in action.

But we're straying away from law here and marching headlong into 
philosophical debate. (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to
whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I 
thought
this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and
other laws covering education of students with disabilities.


Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books 
> for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper 
> fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to 
> the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal 
> with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going 
> to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
> not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know 
> how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my 
> own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic 
> copies
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an 
> etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be 
> weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
> also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. 
> But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't 
> make
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
> with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
> neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't 
> support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>>to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
>> fact
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we 
>> all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a 
>> considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>> make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
>> the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
>> now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
>> had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view 
>> things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, 
>> should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
>> unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>> disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>> register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here 
>> but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>> use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>> of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
>> materials
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>> that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>> learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased 
>> problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to 
>> adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>> of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>>are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it 
>>>>will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, 
>>>>help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>>courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College 
>>>>officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>>of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a 
>>>>copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>>the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, 
>>>>the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan 
>>>>the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>>format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>>amount
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>>>>to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>>tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't 
>>>>come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that 
>>>>puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>>and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>>accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>>says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>>system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes 
>>>>just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students 
>>>>in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>>colleges
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting 
>>>>the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher 
>>>>education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school 
>>>>has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that 
>>>>school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those 
>>>>colleges
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file 
>>>>themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>>to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>>phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>>lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>>specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem 
>>>>for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>>and
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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>>> for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
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>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
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From bspiry at comcast.net  Mon Sep  7 23:59:25 2009
From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 16:59:25 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <79D10071623E4F6BBB91EA2503648054@Freddy>

I agree fully. I’ve just finished my second week of law school and I’m still
in the chase with many supplemental materials that every one of my fellow
1Ls simply had to drop by the law school café and by. The time I’ve
continued to have to spend coordinating access to the assignments all of my
peers can simply pull out of their back pack and read for 15 minutes over a
cup of coffee is time I would sorely prefer spending on my studies. Had the
university not assisted in coordinating obtaining my text books
electronically, well suffice it to say that this would have been a
considerably more challenging entrance. Its tricky enough drinking from a
fire hose when you’ve also got to make sure the hydrant stays open so the
flow doesn’t unexpectedly dry up.
I’ve learned there is nothing noble or heroic about toughing it out with the
odds already against you, particularly when the technology and potential
exists to level the playing field. This isn’t about learning how to do
things the hard way, it’s about learning the law, or whatever discipline one
studies, on a equal footing with our peers. We face plenty of hurdles every
day that we do need to do differently and that take more effort. When there
is a way to level the field it ought to be leveled.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Angie Matney
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:06 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Hello Chhuck,

Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
"special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
book store, buy a book, and then read it?

It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books when
the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own books
in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
going to be distributed indiscriminantly. 

To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies from
the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
publishers to meet my needs for etexts. 

My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I could
do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make any

difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with 
the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be doing 
this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted 
students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither 
should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support 
these processes.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact of
> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
> know
> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
> push
> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>
> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
> an
> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
> way
> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really almost
> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
> because of my loss of sight.
>
> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>
> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>
> It was great reading your comments on this.
>
> William
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register 
> as
>
> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use 
> of
>
> text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
> supervision
>
> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in

> a
>
> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
> to
> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
> otherwise
>
> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
> services
>
> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
> faculty
> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
> employment
>
> setting.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From
>>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>August 28, 2009
>>>
>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this
>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind,
>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>
>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>copyrights.
>>>
>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>>texts,
>
>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>>can
>
>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>>have
>
>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>>its
>
>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format
>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>
>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>>can
>
>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often
>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of
>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that
>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>>have
>
>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>>and
>
>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>>that
>
>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>delays, she says.
>>>
>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>
>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>
>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>>the
>
>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration,
>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>
>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>>scan
>
>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>
>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to
>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently
>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>>same
>
>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the
>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>says.
>>>
>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing
>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>
>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>>books
>
>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>>us."
>>>
>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is
>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 00:01:26 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 19:01:26 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <587CB2074ADC4637BFCC1A818C977EE7@owner96190708e>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>	<BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a>
	<587CB2074ADC4637BFCC1A818C977EE7@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <009701ca3017$870911a0$951b34e0$@com>

L O L
-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:37 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

With great respect, I believe we're missing the point when we say 
students should have "identical access". It never was, isn't now and 
never shall be. Why? Because the only way we, the blind, will ever have 
"identical access" is for us to gain or regain sight. For most of us, 
this ain't gonna happen. I believe that all we can realistically expect 
is enough access to do the job. No one ever said blindness wasn't a 
nuisance.

but my thinking on this sort of thing is definitely old-fashioned 
although gentleman such as Steve Jacobson agree with me. And as for 
scanning, man, I'd much rather use a reader than spend time with OCR 
software!

We're all missing the point of Chuck's message, however. And that is 
that once out on the job, it is unlikely that one can get the level of 
accommodation one apparently has a right to these days in college. Is it 
doing a student a favor to get him/her used to a level of provision of 
services he/she will not experience in the world of employment? I think 
not. And this comes home to roost when the frustrated new employee, used 
to what he/she got from the DSS office, howls "discrimination" when, in 
fact, it isn't discrimination but just the real world in action.

But we're straying away from law here and marching headlong into 
philosophical debate. (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to
whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I 
thought
this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and
other laws covering education of students with disabilities.


Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books 
> for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper 
> fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to 
> the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal 
> with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going 
> to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
> not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know 
> how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my 
> own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic 
> copies
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an 
> etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be 
> weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
> also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. 
> But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't 
> make
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
> with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
> neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't 
> support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>>to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
>> fact
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we 
>> all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a 
>> considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>> make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
>> the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
>> now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
>> had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view 
>> things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, 
>> should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
>> unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>> disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>> register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here 
>> but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>> use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>> of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
>> materials
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>> that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>> learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased 
>> problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to 
>> adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>> of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>>are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it 
>>>>will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, 
>>>>help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>>courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College 
>>>>officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>>of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a 
>>>>copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>>the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, 
>>>>the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan 
>>>>the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>>format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>>amount
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>>>>to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>>tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't 
>>>>come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that 
>>>>puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>>and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>>accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>>says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>>system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes 
>>>>just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students 
>>>>in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>>colleges
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting 
>>>>the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher 
>>>>education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school 
>>>>has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that 
>>>>school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those 
>>>>colleges
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file 
>>>>themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>>to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>>phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>>lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>>specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem 
>>>>for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>>and
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 00:11:55 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 20:11:55 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <587CB2074ADC4637BFCC1A818C977EE7@owner96190708e>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>	<BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a>
	<587CB2074ADC4637BFCC1A818C977EE7@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <4aa5a14d.86c3f10a.68c4.3365@mx.google.com>

Hi Mike,

Interesting. I'm far happier with OCR software. Much easier to go back and
check things later; to search for certain words, etc. I think this is
similar to how some sighted attorneys prefer to dictate materials to be
transcribed while others prefer to do their own typing.

I do agree with you that students need to be prepared for what they are
likely to encounter in the workplace. That could very well be access to a
scanner. I'm OK with scanning my own materials, but as I said before, I also
partly agree with those who think colleges and universities should provide
this material in an accessible format.

The law firm I will be working for has administrative assistants who do my
scanning. I offered to do it; they felt that my time could be better spent.

I can't remember if I posted this before or not, but my final thought is
that VR and colleges should make sure that students have access to OCR
equipment that they are likely to use, the kind of stuff that can quickly
and accurately do a job.

Angie


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 7:37 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

With great respect, I believe we're missing the point when we say 
students should have "identical access". It never was, isn't now and 
never shall be. Why? Because the only way we, the blind, will ever have 
"identical access" is for us to gain or regain sight. For most of us, 
this ain't gonna happen. I believe that all we can realistically expect 
is enough access to do the job. No one ever said blindness wasn't a 
nuisance.

but my thinking on this sort of thing is definitely old-fashioned 
although gentleman such as Steve Jacobson agree with me. And as for 
scanning, man, I'd much rather use a reader than spend time with OCR 
software!

We're all missing the point of Chuck's message, however. And that is 
that once out on the job, it is unlikely that one can get the level of 
accommodation one apparently has a right to these days in college. Is it 
doing a student a favor to get him/her used to a level of provision of 
services he/she will not experience in the world of employment? I think 
not. And this comes home to roost when the frustrated new employee, used 
to what he/she got from the DSS office, howls "discrimination" when, in 
fact, it isn't discrimination but just the real world in action.

But we're straying away from law here and marching headlong into 
philosophical debate. (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to
whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I 
thought
this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and
other laws covering education of students with disabilities.


Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books 
> for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper 
> fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to 
> the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal 
> with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going 
> to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
> not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know 
> how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my 
> own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic 
> copies
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an 
> etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be 
> weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
> also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. 
> But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't 
> make
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
> with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
> neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't 
> support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>>to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
>> fact
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we 
>> all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a 
>> considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>> make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
>> the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
>> now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
>> had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view 
>> things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, 
>> should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
>> unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>> disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>> register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here 
>> but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>> use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>> of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
>> materials
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>> that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>> learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased 
>> problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to 
>> adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>> of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>>are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it 
>>>>will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, 
>>>>help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>>courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College 
>>>>officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>>of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a 
>>>>copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>>the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, 
>>>>the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan 
>>>>the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>>format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>>amount
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>>>>to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>>tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't 
>>>>come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that 
>>>>puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>>and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>>accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>>says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>>system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes 
>>>>just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students 
>>>>in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>>colleges
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting 
>>>>the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher 
>>>>education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school 
>>>>has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that 
>>>>school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those 
>>>>colleges
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file 
>>>>themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>>to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>>phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>>lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>>specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem 
>>>>for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>>and
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> blindlaw:
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>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> signature
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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 00:32:13 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 20:32:13 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <79D10071623E4F6BBB91EA2503648054@Freddy>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
	<79D10071623E4F6BBB91EA2503648054@Freddy>
Message-ID: <4aa5a60e.04c2f10a.1552.2aea@mx.google.com>

Hi Bill,

Do you have access to a duplex scanner that can scan both sides of the page
at once? I found this to be absolutely essential during law school,
particularly where supplemental materials are concerned. We *ought* to have
immediate access to materials; we don't. If you don't have a scanner, maybe
your school will extend your financial aid package to help you purchase one.
It really does simplify things, and it's something you'd be able to use on
the job. 

My scanner and OCR package could process more than 100 pages in 7 minutes,
so it saved me lots and lots of time. If you want more specific info, feel
free to write off-list.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Bill Spiry
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 7:59 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

I agree fully. I’ve just finished my second week of law school and I’m still
in the chase with many supplemental materials that every one of my fellow
1Ls simply had to drop by the law school café and by. The time I’ve
continued to have to spend coordinating access to the assignments all of my
peers can simply pull out of their back pack and read for 15 minutes over a
cup of coffee is time I would sorely prefer spending on my studies. Had the
university not assisted in coordinating obtaining my text books
electronically, well suffice it to say that this would have been a
considerably more challenging entrance. Its tricky enough drinking from a
fire hose when you’ve also got to make sure the hydrant stays open so the
flow doesn’t unexpectedly dry up.
I’ve learned there is nothing noble or heroic about toughing it out with the
odds already against you, particularly when the technology and potential
exists to level the playing field. This isn’t about learning how to do
things the hard way, it’s about learning the law, or whatever discipline one
studies, on a equal footing with our peers. We face plenty of hurdles every
day that we do need to do differently and that take more effort. When there
is a way to level the field it ought to be leveled.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Angie Matney
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:06 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Hello Chhuck,

Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
"special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
book store, buy a book, and then read it?

It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books when
the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own books
in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
going to be distributed indiscriminantly. 

To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies from
the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
publishers to meet my needs for etexts. 

My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I could
do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make any

difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with 
the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be doing 
this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted 
students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither 
should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support 
these processes.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact of
> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all 
> know
> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable 
> push
> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>
> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make 
> an
> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the 
> way
> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really almost
> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
> because of my loss of sight.
>
> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>
> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>
> It was great reading your comments on this.
>
> William
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register 
> as
>
> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use 
> of
>
> text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
> supervision
>
> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in

> a
>
> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning 
> to
> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or 
> otherwise
>
> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled 
> services
>
> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with 
> faculty
> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an 
> employment
>
> setting.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From
>>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>August 28, 2009
>>>
>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this
>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind,
>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>
>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>copyrights.
>>>
>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>>texts,
>
>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses 
>>>can
>
>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials 
>>>have
>
>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of 
>>>its
>
>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format
>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>
>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format 
>>>can
>
>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often
>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of
>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that
>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to 
>>>have
>
>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests 
>>>and
>
>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts 
>>>that
>
>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>delays, she says.
>>>
>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>
>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>
>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system, 
>>>the
>
>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration,
>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>
>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just 
>>>scan
>
>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>
>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to
>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently
>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the 
>>>same
>
>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the
>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>says.
>>>
>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing
>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>
>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those 
>>>books
>
>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for 
>>>us."
>>>
>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is
>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
> il.com
>
>
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>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep  8 06:15:06 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 23:15:06 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>

While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I was 
in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the 
same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called 
scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced through 
RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In 
many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in a 
timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not 
have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the 
odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder 
to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that some 
have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see the 
judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting 
briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in some 
states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services 
offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books 
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies 
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I 
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make 
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be 
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
>> il.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
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From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep  8 06:27:44 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 23:27:44 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <4aa5a14d.86c3f10a.68c4.3365@mx.google.com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>	<BBBDC76119034F77979315673B306241@hp048378e4c43a><587CB2074ADC4637BFCC1A818C977EE7@owner96190708e>
	<4aa5a14d.86c3f10a.68c4.3365@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <0AADC0B346DC4EC09DC369E889049815@spike>

I guess I was fortunate because I had a VR counselor here in California that 
provided all the needed technology.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hi Mike,
>
> Interesting. I'm far happier with OCR software. Much easier to go back and
> check things later; to search for certain words, etc. I think this is
> similar to how some sighted attorneys prefer to dictate materials to be
> transcribed while others prefer to do their own typing.
>
> I do agree with you that students need to be prepared for what they are
> likely to encounter in the workplace. That could very well be access to a
> scanner. I'm OK with scanning my own materials, but as I said before, I 
> also
> partly agree with those who think colleges and universities should provide
> this material in an accessible format.
>
> The law firm I will be working for has administrative assistants who do my
> scanning. I offered to do it; they felt that my time could be better 
> spent.
>
> I can't remember if I posted this before or not, but my final thought is
> that VR and colleges should make sure that students have access to OCR
> equipment that they are likely to use, the kind of stuff that can quickly
> and accurately do a job.
>
> Angie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 7:37 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> With great respect, I believe we're missing the point when we say
> students should have "identical access". It never was, isn't now and
> never shall be. Why? Because the only way we, the blind, will ever have
> "identical access" is for us to gain or regain sight. For most of us,
> this ain't gonna happen. I believe that all we can realistically expect
> is enough access to do the job. No one ever said blindness wasn't a
> nuisance.
>
> but my thinking on this sort of thing is definitely old-fashioned
> although gentleman such as Steve Jacobson agree with me. And as for
> scanning, man, I'd much rather use a reader than spend time with OCR
> software!
>
> We're all missing the point of Chuck's message, however. And that is
> that once out on the job, it is unlikely that one can get the level of
> accommodation one apparently has a right to these days in college. Is it
> doing a student a favor to get him/her used to a level of provision of
> services he/she will not experience in the world of employment? I think
> not. And this comes home to roost when the frustrated new employee, used
> to what he/she got from the DSS office, howls "discrimination" when, in
> fact, it isn't discrimination but just the real world in action.
>
> But we're straying away from law here and marching headlong into
> philosophical debate. (grin)
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
> I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to
> whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I
> thought
> this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and
> other laws covering education of students with disabilities.
>
>
> Mike
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> Hello Chhuck,
>>
>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books
>> for
>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper
>> fee.
>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to
>> the
>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>
>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>> when
>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>> books
>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal
>> with
>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going
>> to
>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are
>> not
>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>
>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know
>> how I
>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my
>> own
>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic
>> copies
>> from
>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an
>> etext
>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be
>> weeks
>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>
>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I
>> also
>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>> could
>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers.
>> But I
>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't
>> make
>> any
>>
>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working
>> with
>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>> doing
>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and
>> neither
>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't
>> support
>> these processes.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need
>>>to
>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the
>>> fact
>>> of
>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we
>>> all
>>> know
>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a
>>> considerable
>>> push
>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>
>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily
>>> make
>>> an
>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to
>>> the
>>> way
>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>> almost
>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically
>>> now
>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>
>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have
>>> had
>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view
>>> things
>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>
>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not,
>>> should be
>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is
>>> unavailable.
>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>
>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that
>>> disabled
>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to
>>> register
>>> as
>>>
>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here
>>> but I
>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for
>>> use
>>> of
>>>
>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>> supervision
>>>
>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work
>>> of
>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring
>>> materials
>>> in
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring
>>> that
>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant
>>> learning
>>> to
>>> find and create available resources and development of increased
>>> problem
>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>> otherwise
>>>
>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to
>>> adequately
>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>> services
>>>
>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use
>>> of
>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>> faculty
>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>> employment
>>>
>>> setting.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>this
>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>blind,
>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is
>>>>>designed
>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks
>>>>>are
>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it
>>>>>will
>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently,
>>>>>help
>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>
>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>texts,
>>>
>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their
>>>>>courses
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College
>>>>>officials
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each
>>>>>of
>>>>>its
>>>
>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a
>>>>>copy
>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller
>>>>>the
>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>format
>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not,
>>>>>the
>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan
>>>>>the
>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>
>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable
>>>>>format
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>often
>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer
>>>>>amount
>>>>>of
>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>that
>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need
>>>>>to
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for
>>>>>tests
>>>>>and
>>>
>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training
>>>>>for
>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't
>>>>>come
>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that
>>>>>puts
>>>>>that
>>>
>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request
>>>>>and
>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for
>>>>>accessibility
>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>
>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently,"
>>>>>says
>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of
>>>>>the
>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>
>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork
>>>>>with
>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the
>>>>>system,
>>>>>the
>>>
>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>registration,
>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to
>>>>>process
>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes
>>>>>just
>>>>>scan
>>>
>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students
>>>>>in a
>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different
>>>>>colleges
>>>>>to
>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>Currently
>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting
>>>>>the
>>>>>same
>>>
>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher
>>>>>education at
>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school
>>>>>has
>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format,
>>>>>they
>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that
>>>>>school
>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those
>>>>>colleges
>>>>>the
>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file
>>>>>themselves, he
>>>>>says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million
>>>>>to
>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta
>>>>>phase,
>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>billing
>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a
>>>>>lot
>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>books
>>>
>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through
>>>>>specialized
>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem
>>>>>for
>>>>>us."
>>>>>
>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers
>>>>>and
>>>>>is
>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>>> al.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 08:10:43 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 04:10:43 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
	<83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>
Message-ID: <4aa61184.47c1f10a.1817.ffffa9e9@mx.google.com>

Hi Chuck,

	Remember that under the ADA, no one can be required to accept an
accommodation nhe or she does not want. A college cannot require me to allow
them to provide me with books if I want to scan them.

I think that every blind high-school student ought to have access to a
scanner and OCR software like the equipment I used in law school. But even
so, scanning is not the same as reading a book, as you suggest below.
There's additional time in preparing the materials. This can be greatly
minimized with the right equipment and software, but it is not the same as
simply being able to start reading a book as soon as you buy it. I do agree
with you that we have no real reason to expect things to be "fair." All I'm
saying is that, in principle, universities should be providing this kind of
accommodation. The reality is that few have the facilities to do it, and any
blind student who depends solely on DSS for books is probably going to fall
behind. Additionally, if a blind student gains lots of practice with
scanning, she is more likely to use it recreationally. But I fear that this
is not exactly on-topic anymore.

Angie


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I was 
in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the 
same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called 
scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced through

RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In 
many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in a

timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not 
have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the 
odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder 
to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that some

have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see the

judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting 
briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in some

states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services 
offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books 
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies 
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I 
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make 
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be 
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
>> il.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 4397 (20090905) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
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>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
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From joramsey at cox.net  Tue Sep  8 09:38:51 2009
From: joramsey at cox.net (John )
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 05:38:51 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <4aa61184.47c1f10a.1817.ffffa9e9@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <B3C35F6BD8C841328ED12F0EFB303F30@noneeb869fea9a>

Perhaps I am confusing the difference between the educational setting and
the workplace, but it has always been my understanding of the ADA that the
accommodation is reasonable not whether or not the recipient wants the
accommodation. For instance, if the accommodation is a Toyota, the recipient
cannot simply refuse the Toyota because he prefers a Cadillac.


John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.

Gainesville, FL 32609

(352) 505-6642

 

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
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communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
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-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Angie Matney
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 4:11 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


Hi Chuck,

	Remember that under the ADA, no one can be required to accept an
accommodation nhe or she does not want. A college cannot require me to allow
them to provide me with books if I want to scan them.

I think that every blind high-school student ought to have access to a
scanner and OCR software like the equipment I used in law school. But even
so, scanning is not the same as reading a book, as you suggest below.
There's additional time in preparing the materials. This can be greatly
minimized with the right equipment and software, but it is not the same as
simply being able to start reading a book as soon as you buy it. I do agree
with you that we have no real reason to expect things to be "fair." All I'm
saying is that, in principle, universities should be providing this kind of
accommodation. The reality is that few have the facilities to do it, and any
blind student who depends solely on DSS for books is probably going to fall
behind. Additionally, if a blind student gains lots of practice with
scanning, she is more likely to use it recreationally. But I fear that this
is not exactly on-topic anymore.

Angie


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I was 
in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the 
same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called 
scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced through

RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In 
many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in a

timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not 
have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the 
odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder 
to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that some

have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see the

judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting 
briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in some

states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services 
offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently. Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books 
> for them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the 
> proper fee. They don't have to convince publishers or authors that 
> they deserve a "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them 
> as a matter of course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be 
> able to go to the book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know 
> how I would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan 
> my own books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get 
> electronic copies from the publishers, I did so. If the university 
> could have produced an etext copy of every book as soon as I bought it 
> (or nearly so), I would have gladly let them do it. I don't think that 
> would have made me less independent. The problem is, the system is 
> broken. I refused to be weeks behind in my reading because of the 
> inability of the school and the publishers to meet my needs for 
> etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
> also like having some control over the process by which I obtain the 
> books. During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental 
> text, I could do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow 
> publishers. But I still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be 
> the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't 
> make
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
> with the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges 
> shouldn't be doing this for students as it fosters dependence and 
> enables them. Sighted students don't have anyone obtaining their 
> materials for them and neither should blind students. Officially, I 
> would hope that NFB doesn't support these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>>to  lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
>>fact  of  the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many 
>>things are  electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or 
>>not.  As we all  know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>> make an individual less independent.  I think this service is 
>> catching up to the way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
>> had vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view 
>> things predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, 
>> should be able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
>> unavailable. But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>> ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>> disabled students are losing their choices to be independent by 
>> having to register as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for 
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here 
>> but I learned many valuable skills by having to procure and 
>> arrangement for use of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>> of employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
>> materials in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>> that materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>> learning to find and create available resources and development of 
>> increased problem solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled 
>> students blind or otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to 
>> adequately compete in the real world of employment when programs such 
>> disabled services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>> of such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs 
>> with faculty members as they would have to do when they are on their 
>> own in an employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>designed to centralize the process by which electronic versions of 
>>>>textbooks are requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. 
>>>>Experts say it will allow disabled students to get their textbooks 
>>>>more efficiently, help colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and 
>>>>protect publishers' copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>>courses can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and 
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational 
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College 
>>>>officials have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>>of its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a 
>>>>copy exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the 
>>>>smaller the publisher -- college officials still have to convert the 
>>>>file to a format that can be read by whatever reading aid the 
>>>>student uses. If not, the college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to 
>>>>obtain permission to scan the book and create its own electronic 
>>>>version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>>format can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of 
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by 
>>>>the character-recognition software the university uses to turn them 
>>>>into standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>>amount of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled 
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>>>>to have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>>tests and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>for the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book 
>>>>doesn't come until the term has been in session for three or four 
>>>>weeks, that puts that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such 
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>>and delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>>accessibility affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>>says McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that 
>>>>out of the transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules 
>>>>up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should 
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>with each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>>system, the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>process the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text 
>>>>sometimes just scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students 
>>>>in a timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>>colleges
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher 
>>>>education at the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if 
>>>>one school has already spent the time and the money to convert a 
>>>>file to a format, they could advise the AccessText network, which 
>>>>could then make the info available that it was still available in 
>>>>that format, and that school could share it with another school" -- 
>>>>thereby sparing those colleges the time and resources it would have 
>>>>used to convert the file themselves, he says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>>to develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>>phase, which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain 
>>>>itself by billing member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, 
>>>>depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the 
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>>lot more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of 
>>>>those books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>>specialized publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of 
>>>>the problem for us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>>and
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 10:46:50 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 06:46:50 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <B3C35F6BD8C841328ED12F0EFB303F30@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <4aa61184.47c1f10a.1817.ffffa9e9@mx.google.com>
	<B3C35F6BD8C841328ED12F0EFB303F30@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <4aa6361c.02c3f10a.49c4.6ff8@mx.google.com>

Hi John,

There's a difference between choosing between two accommodations and
refusing accommodation altogether. To borrow your analogy, rather than
choose between a Toyota and a Cadillac, I can, under the aDA, say, "No
thanks, I'd rather walk." This is my understanding of the law. My point was
that if I have a scanner, I do not have to go through DSS at all for texts
if I don't want to. I can just buy them and scan.

Angie

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John 
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 5:39 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Perhaps I am confusing the difference between the educational setting and
the workplace, but it has always been my understanding of the ADA that the
accommodation is reasonable not whether or not the recipient wants the
accommodation. For instance, if the accommodation is a Toyota, the recipient
cannot simply refuse the Toyota because he prefers a Cadillac.


John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.

Gainesville, FL 32609

(352) 505-6642

 

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
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aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
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-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Angie Matney
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 4:11 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


Hi Chuck,

	Remember that under the ADA, no one can be required to accept an
accommodation nhe or she does not want. A college cannot require me to allow
them to provide me with books if I want to scan them.

I think that every blind high-school student ought to have access to a
scanner and OCR software like the equipment I used in law school. But even
so, scanning is not the same as reading a book, as you suggest below.
There's additional time in preparing the materials. This can be greatly
minimized with the right equipment and software, but it is not the same as
simply being able to start reading a book as soon as you buy it. I do agree
with you that we have no real reason to expect things to be "fair." All I'm
saying is that, in principle, universities should be providing this kind of
accommodation. The reality is that few have the facilities to do it, and any
blind student who depends solely on DSS for books is probably going to fall
behind. Additionally, if a blind student gains lots of practice with
scanning, she is more likely to use it recreationally. But I fear that this
is not exactly on-topic anymore.

Angie


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I was 
in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the 
same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called 
scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced through

RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In 
many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in a

timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not 
have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the 
odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder 
to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that some

have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see the

judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting 
briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in some

states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services 
offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently. Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books 
> for them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the 
> proper fee. They don't have to convince publishers or authors that 
> they deserve a "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them 
> as a matter of course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be 
> able to go to the book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know 
> how I would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan 
> my own books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get 
> electronic copies from the publishers, I did so. If the university 
> could have produced an etext copy of every book as soon as I bought it 
> (or nearly so), I would have gladly let them do it. I don't think that 
> would have made me less independent. The problem is, the system is 
> broken. I refused to be weeks behind in my reading because of the 
> inability of the school and the publishers to meet my needs for 
> etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
> also like having some control over the process by which I obtain the 
> books. During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental 
> text, I could do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow 
> publishers. But I still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be 
> the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't 
> make
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
> with the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges 
> shouldn't be doing this for students as it fosters dependence and 
> enables them. Sighted students don't have anyone obtaining their 
> materials for them and neither should blind students. Officially, I 
> would hope that NFB doesn't support these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>>to  lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
>>fact  of  the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many 
>>things are  electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or 
>>not.  As we all  know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>> make an individual less independent.  I think this service is 
>> catching up to the way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
>> had vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view 
>> things predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, 
>> should be able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
>> unavailable. But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>> ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>> disabled students are losing their choices to be independent by 
>> having to register as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for 
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here 
>> but I learned many valuable skills by having to procure and 
>> arrangement for use of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>> of employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
>> materials in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>> that materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>> learning to find and create available resources and development of 
>> increased problem solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled 
>> students blind or otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to 
>> adequately compete in the real world of employment when programs such 
>> disabled services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>> of such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs 
>> with faculty members as they would have to do when they are on their 
>> own in an employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>designed to centralize the process by which electronic versions of 
>>>>textbooks are requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. 
>>>>Experts say it will allow disabled students to get their textbooks 
>>>>more efficiently, help colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and 
>>>>protect publishers' copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>>courses can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and 
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational 
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College 
>>>>officials have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>>of its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a 
>>>>copy exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the 
>>>>smaller the publisher -- college officials still have to convert the 
>>>>file to a format that can be read by whatever reading aid the 
>>>>student uses. If not, the college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to 
>>>>obtain permission to scan the book and create its own electronic 
>>>>version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>>format can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of 
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by 
>>>>the character-recognition software the university uses to turn them 
>>>>into standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>>amount of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled 
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>>>>to have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>>tests and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>for the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book 
>>>>doesn't come until the term has been in session for three or four 
>>>>weeks, that puts that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such 
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>>and delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>>accessibility affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>>says McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that 
>>>>out of the transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules 
>>>>up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should 
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>with each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>>system, the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>process the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text 
>>>>sometimes just scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students 
>>>>in a timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>>colleges
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher 
>>>>education at the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if 
>>>>one school has already spent the time and the money to convert a 
>>>>file to a format, they could advise the AccessText network, which 
>>>>could then make the info available that it was still available in 
>>>>that format, and that school could share it with another school" -- 
>>>>thereby sparing those colleges the time and resources it would have 
>>>>used to convert the file themselves, he says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>>to develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>>phase, which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain 
>>>>itself by billing member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, 
>>>>depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the 
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>>lot more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of 
>>>>those books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>>specialized publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of 
>>>>the problem for us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>>and
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
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From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Wed Sep  9 22:35:10 2009
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 17:35:10 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F83179@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>



________________________________
From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 1:28 PM
To: jobs at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice



________________________________
From: Hunter, Sue [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 4:07 PM
To: Maurer, Patricia; nijc at aol.com; nlove at opd.state.md.us; nmcconnell at jackscamp.com; noryrp at cox.net; nromulus at gmail.com; ntb at boglechang.com; nwpatton at law.stanford.edu; ocaaba at cox.net; omanager at lawyerscomm.org; palsd at hotmail.com; patel at fr.com; pchanster at yahoo.com; pchapman at koonz.com; pgrewal at daycasebeer.com; pkim at lordbissell.com; Maurer, Patricia; pmorrison at state.wv.us; poppy.johnston at unlv.edu; president at abaw.org; president at adc.org; president at apabala.org; president at blackwomenlawyersla.org
Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice


To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp

We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you.

Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies

 *   EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEY DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION NARCOTIC AND DANGEROUS DRUG SECTION 09-CRM-NDDS-034 This position is open for 14 days, this position closes on September 28, 2009, Eastern Standard Time.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-crm-ndds-034.htm>
Date posted: 09-09-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF SOUTH DAKOTA 09-SD-AUSA-003 Applications must be post marked by September 30, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-sd-ausa-003.htm>
Date posted: 09-09-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF NEVADA RENO BRANCH OFFICE 09-NV-AUSA-04 To receive consideration for this vacancy, resumes must be received by 5:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time on September 25, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-nv-ausa-04.htm>
Date posted: 09-09-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF NEVADA 09-NV-AUSA-05 To receive consideration for this vacancy, resumes must be received by 5:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time on September 25, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-nv-ausa-05.htm>
Date posted: 09-09-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION NATURAL RESOURCES SECTION EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEY GS-12 TO GS-15 OPEN: SEPTEMBER 4, 2009 CLOSE: SEPTEMBER 11, 2009 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: ENRD-09-043-EXC Applications must be received by Friday, September 11, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/enrd-09-043-exc.htm>
Date posted: 09-04-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION NATURAL RESOURCES SECTION EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEY GS-12 TO GS-15 OPEN: SEPTEMBER 4, 2009 CLOSE: SEPTEMBER 11, 2009 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: ENRD-09-043-EXC Applications must be received by Friday, September 11, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/enrd-09-043-exc.htm>
Date posted: 09-04-2009
 *   ATTORNEY-ADVISOR EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW FALLS CHURCH, VA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-09-0113 Applications received after September 11, 2009, will not be considered.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/eoir-09-0113.htm>
Date posted: 09-04-2009
 *   UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT 09-EDNC-AUSA-05 Positions are opened until filled. The initial cut-off date for the receipt of applications is September 10, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-ednc-ausa-05.htm>
Date posted: 09-03-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT DISTRICT OF UTAH VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-IMM-01 Applications should be postmarked no later than September 21, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-imm-01.htm>
Date posted: 09-03-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT DISTRICT OF UTAH VANCANY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-PSC-01 Applications should be postmarked no later than September 21, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-psc-01.htm>
Date posted: 09-03-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF IDAHO 09-ID-07 Applications must be postmarked no later than September 18, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-id-07.htm>
Date posted: 09-03-2009
 *   FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS OFFICE OF GENERAL COUNSEL ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL LEGAL ADMINISTRATIVE BRANCH (ATTORNEY-ADVISOR) GS-905-15 This position is open until filled, but no later than September 7, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/labchiefvacann.htm>
Date posted: 09-03-2009
 *   FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS OFFICE OF GENERAL COUNSEL SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR/GENERAL COUNSEL (ATTORNEY-ADVISOR) GS-905-15 This position is open until filled, but no later than September 7, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/specialasstvacannaug09.htm>
Date posted: 09-03-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF ALASKA 09-AK-014 Applications will be reviewed and acted upon on a rolling basis until the position is filled. No applications will be received after September 16, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-ak-014.htm>
Date posted: 09-02-2009
 *   ATTORNEY-ADVISOR EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW FALLS CHURCH, VA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-09-0108 Applications received after September 17, 2009 will not be accepted.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/eoir-09-0108.htm>
Date posted: 09-02-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON ANNOUNCEMENT #2009-5 Applications must be received in the office or post-marked no later than September 21, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-usao-2009-5.htm>
Date posted: 09-02-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 09-NDCA-E-04 Positions are open until filled.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-ndca-e-04.htm>
Date posted: 09-02-2009
 *   FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS DESIGNATION AND SENTENCE COMPUTATION CENTER GRAND PRAIRIE, TEXAS ATTORNEY-ADVISOR GS-905-12/13/14 Applicatiions must be received by September 6, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-bop-attyadv-tx.htm>
Date posted: 09-02-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 09-WDNY-009 Applications will be accepted until the position is filled, with a first cut-off date of Friday, September 11, 2009. Selections may be made from those applications received by September 11, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-wdny-009.htm>
Date posted: 08-31-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE CENTRAL DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 09-CDIL-04 Applications must be received by September 18, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-cdil-04.htm>
Date posted: 08-31-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF WISCONSIN 09-WDWI-04 To receive consideration for this vacancy, resumes must be received by 5:00 p.m. Central Standard Time on September 14, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-wdwi-04.htm>
Date posted: 08-31-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT, CONVERTIBLE TO PERMANENT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-NDNY-13 Applications must be received by September 15, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/8-09-ausa-wcc-ace-syracuse.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-NDNY-12 Applications must be received by September 15, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/8-09-immigration-plattsburgh.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT, CONVERTIBLE TO PERMANENT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-NDNY-11 Applications must be received by September 15, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/8-09-ausa-appeals-syracuse.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TWO-YEAR TERM POSITION NORTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-NDNY-10 Applications must be received by September 15, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/8-09-ausa-psc-term.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 09-WDNY-008 Applications will be accepted until the position is filled, with a first cut-off date of Friday, September 11, 2009. Selections may be made from those applications received by September 11, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-wdny-008.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA 09-NFLAUSA-04 Applications must be received by COB (5:00 Eastern) on September 11, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-nflausa-09.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ATTORNEY ADVISOR, GS-14/15 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION OFFICE OF JUSTICE FOR VICTIMS OF OVERSEAS TERRORISM Announcement closes on September 30, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-nsd-attyadv-dc.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE District of Oregon 09-OR-10 Position is open until filled, but no later than September 8, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-or-10.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS Application Process and Deadline Date: The closing date for this announcement is September 10, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/elpasoausaterm281614.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEYS(GS-0905-13/14/15) U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION GANG UNIT WASHINGTON, DC 09-CRM-GSU-033 Deadline date for submission is November 27, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/attygangunitgs131415.htm>
Date posted: 08-28-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE 09-WDTN-06 To receive consideration for this vacancy, resumes must be received by 5:00 p.m. Central Standard Time on September 8, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-wdtn-06.htm>
Date posted: 08-26-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF DELAWARE Position is open until filled, but applications should be submitted no later than September 18, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/psc-ausa-announcement1.htm>
Date posted: 08-26-2009
 *   VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA WASHINGTON, D.C. Position is open until filled.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/dcattorvacannounceupdated8-09.htm>
Date posted: 08-26-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA 09-EDVA-02 Position is open until filled, but resumes must be received by September 8, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-edva-02.ausa.htm>
Date posted: 08-25-2009
 *   FREEDOM OF INFORMATION/PRIVACY ACT EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY ADVISOR (GS-905-13/14/15) U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION WASHINGTON, D.C. Applications will be accepted until November 24, 2009 with the following cut off dates: the 15th and 30th of every month.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/trialattorney-foiaGS-13-14-15oeo.htm>
Date posted: 08-25-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS OFFICE OF LEGAL PROGRAMS AND POLICY STAFF ATTORNEY-ADVISOR, GS-0905-13/14 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO: 09-EOUSA-53 Open: 08/24/2009 Close: 09/11/2009<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-eousa-53.htm>
Date posted: 08-25-2009

The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information.

-------------- next part --------------
_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov

From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 10 17:56:02 2009
From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:56:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] bigamy in California
Message-ID: <394542.90759.qm@web112405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

This question is for those of you who have knowledge regarding a California court's willingness to recognize foreign marriages.
 
Say Pete marries Donna.  He then takes Donna and Amanda to a country where polygamy is legal.  Pete marries Amanda. 
 
All three return to California.  Does a California court have discretion when choosing whether Pete and Amanda's marriage is valid, thereby making Pete's two marriages valid and Pete would not be a bigamist?  Would the court's decision change if Amanda had been kidnapped by Pete and Donna prior to going to the country where polygamy is legal?
 
Mike


      

From JFreeh at nfb.org  Thu Sep 10 23:07:21 2009
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:07:21 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Endorses Google Books
 Settlement Before Congress
Message-ID: <auto-000116430425@mailfront1.g2host.com>



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

cdanielsen at nfb.org


National Federation of the Blind
Endorses Google Books Settlement Before Congress




Urges Justice Department to Support Settlement



Washington, DC (September 10, 2009): The National Federation of the 
Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people 
and the leading advocate for access by the blind to digital 
information, testified before the House Judiciary Committee today 
that the proposed settlement between Google and authors and 
publishers regarding the Google Books project should be 
approved.  The Google Books settlement will make millions of titles 
available to the blind and other Americans with print disabilities, 
providing more access to the printed word than the blind have had in 
all of human history.



Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, 
told the House Judiciary Committee: "The Google settlement is, for 
the blind and many others, the next step in the democratization of 
knowledge.  That process began with the introduction of the printing 
press and then, for the blind, with the invention of Braille.  Now 
technology is available that transcends the traditional limitations 
of both print and Braille, promising to make millions of titles 
available to the blind in Braille or any other format of our 
choice.  The narrow business interests of Google's competitors must 
not be allowed to block Americans who cannot read print from all of 
the opportunities that greater access to written knowledge will make 
available to them.  It is time for the doors of the world's great 
libraries to be opened and welcome to everyone."



The National Federation of the Blind also urged the United States 
Department of Justice, which is reviewing the terms of the 
settlement, to support the agreement.



"The Google Books settlement is a major step forward in advancing the 
civil rights of blind Americans and others who cannot read print 
because it substantially increases our opportunities for education 
and employment," President Maurer said.  "The Justice Department, 
which is tasked with protecting the civil rights of all Americans, 
should respect the agreement of the parties to the settlement and 
allow its access provisions to be fully implemented.  In doing so, 
the government will send a strong message that it values the 
participation of the blind in society and believes that we should 
have access to all of the information to which our sighted friends 
and colleagues have access."



###

From rfarber at jw.com  Fri Sep 11 02:12:46 2009
From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:12:46 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Endorses Google
	Books Settlement Before Congress
In-Reply-To: <auto-000116430425@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000116430425@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <8EA167BDF4483449B67BBE3BFCB648F10D116352@pdc-mail01.jwllp.com>

Does anyone know what the proposed terms of the settlement are? 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Freeh,Jessica
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 6:07 PM
To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind Endorses Google
Books Settlement Before Congress



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

cdanielsen at nfb.org


National Federation of the Blind
Endorses Google Books Settlement Before Congress




Urges Justice Department to Support Settlement



Washington, DC (September 10, 2009): The National Federation of the 
Blind, the nation's oldest and largest organization of blind people 
and the leading advocate for access by the blind to digital 
information, testified before the House Judiciary Committee today 
that the proposed settlement between Google and authors and 
publishers regarding the Google Books project should be 
approved.  The Google Books settlement will make millions of titles 
available to the blind and other Americans with print disabilities, 
providing more access to the printed word than the blind have had in 
all of human history.



Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, 
told the House Judiciary Committee: "The Google settlement is, for 
the blind and many others, the next step in the democratization of 
knowledge.  That process began with the introduction of the printing 
press and then, for the blind, with the invention of Braille.  Now 
technology is available that transcends the traditional limitations 
of both print and Braille, promising to make millions of titles 
available to the blind in Braille or any other format of our 
choice.  The narrow business interests of Google's competitors must 
not be allowed to block Americans who cannot read print from all of 
the opportunities that greater access to written knowledge will make 
available to them.  It is time for the doors of the world's great 
libraries to be opened and welcome to everyone."



The National Federation of the Blind also urged the United States 
Department of Justice, which is reviewing the terms of the 
settlement, to support the agreement.



"The Google Books settlement is a major step forward in advancing the 
civil rights of blind Americans and others who cannot read print 
because it substantially increases our opportunities for education 
and employment," President Maurer said.  "The Justice Department, 
which is tasked with protecting the civil rights of all Americans, 
should respect the agreement of the parties to the settlement and 
allow its access provisions to be fully implemented.  In doing so, 
the government will send a strong message that it values the 
participation of the blind in society and believes that we should 
have access to all of the information to which our sighted friends 
and colleagues have access."



###
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.c
om


From Ronza.Othman at dhs.gov  Fri Sep 11 21:36:46 2009
From: Ronza.Othman at dhs.gov (Othman, Ronza)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 17:36:46 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Weekly DHS Update -- Statement by Secretary
	Napolitano on the 8th Anniversary of the Sept. 11,
	2001 Terrorist Attacks
Message-ID: <C7A83F855C9DFC4794B8695BC4C10E6860F7B4@ZAU1UG-0308.DHSNET.DS1.DHS>

 

 

________________________________

From: civil.liberties at dhs.gov 
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 5:25 PM
To: Othman, Ronza
Subject: Weekly DHS Update -- Statement by Secretary Napolitano on the
8th Anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks
Importance: High

 

 

 

 

 

 

STATEMENT BY SECRETARY NAPOLITANO ON THE EIGHTH ANNIVERSARY OF THE
SEPTEMBER 11, 2001, TERRORIST ATTACKS

 

"On the eighth anniversary of the terrorist attacks of September 11, our
nation pauses to remember a day of sorrow and tragedy, but also a day of
heroism and unity. Eight years later, threats to the United States and
our allies abroad are persistent and evolving. Homeland security remains
a responsibility shared by every individual, community and business.
Together, we must build a culture of resiliency and guard against
complacency, so we are better prepared for terrorist attacks or
disasters of any kind. The President has proclaimed September 11 as a
day of remembrance, and also a day of service. By serving our
communities and our country today and throughout the year, we
commemorate our past while also preparing for our future."

 

 

 

 



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From benkarpilow at gmail.com  Sat Sep 12 17:14:19 2009
From: benkarpilow at gmail.com (Ben Karpilow)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 10:14:19 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Angie, I have a scanner question for you
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><79D10071623E4F6BBB91EA2503648054@Freddy>
	<4aa5a60e.04c2f10a.1552.2aea@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <8E2BB636870244FB911C7D517F0A31B8@benbpgavlhgwwr>

Hello Angie, I'd like to ask you some questions about your duplex scanner. 
Would you contact me off list at

benkarpilow at gmail.com

Thanks, Ben


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


Hi Bill,

Do you have access to a duplex scanner that can scan both sides of the page
at once? I found this to be absolutely essential during law school,
particularly where supplemental materials are concerned. We *ought* to have
immediate access to materials; we don't. If you don't have a scanner, maybe
your school will extend your financial aid package to help you purchase one.
It really does simplify things, and it's something you'd be able to use on
the job.

My scanner and OCR package could process more than 100 pages in 7 minutes,
so it saved me lots and lots of time. If you want more specific info, feel
free to write off-list.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Bill Spiry
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 7:59 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

I agree fully. I've just finished my second week of law school and I'm still
in the chase with many supplemental materials that every one of my fellow
1Ls simply had to drop by the law school café and by. The time I've
continued to have to spend coordinating access to the assignments all of my
peers can simply pull out of their back pack and read for 15 minutes over a
cup of coffee is time I would sorely prefer spending on my studies. Had the
university not assisted in coordinating obtaining my text books
electronically, well suffice it to say that this would have been a
considerably more challenging entrance. Its tricky enough drinking from a
fire hose when you've also got to make sure the hydrant stays open so the
flow doesn't unexpectedly dry up.
I've learned there is nothing noble or heroic about toughing it out with the
odds already against you, particularly when the technology and potential
exists to level the playing field. This isn't about learning how to do
things the hard way, it's about learning the law, or whatever discipline one
studies, on a equal footing with our peers. We face plenty of hurdles every
day that we do need to do differently and that take more effort. When there
is a way to level the field it ought to be leveled.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Angie Matney
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:06 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Hello Chhuck,

Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
"special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
book store, buy a book, and then read it?

It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books when
the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own books
in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
going to be distributed indiscriminantly.

To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies from
the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
publishers to meet my needs for etexts.

My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I could
do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make any

difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be doing
this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
these processes.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact of
> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
> know
> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
> push
> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>
> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
> an
> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
> way
> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really almost
> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
> because of my loss of sight.
>
> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>
> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>
> It was great reading your comments on this.
>
> William
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register
> as
>
> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use
> of
>
> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
> supervision
>
> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials in

> a
>
> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
> to
> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
> otherwise
>
> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
> services
>
> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
> faculty
> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
> employment
>
> setting.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From
>>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>August 28, 2009
>>>
>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia this
>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for blind,
>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>
>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>copyrights.
>>>
>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>texts,
>
>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>can
>
>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>have
>
>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>its
>
>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a format
>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>
>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>can
>
>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts often
>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount of
>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give that
>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>have
>
>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>and
>
>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>that
>
>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>delays, she says.
>>>
>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>
>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>
>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>the
>
>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during registration,
>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>
>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>scan
>
>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>
>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges to
>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. Currently
>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>same
>
>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges the
>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>says.
>>>
>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by billing
>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>
>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>books
>
>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>us."
>>>
>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and is
>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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> al.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
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From jazenmazen at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 12 18:08:39 2009
From: jazenmazen at yahoo.com (Mazen)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 14:08:39 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
	<83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>
Message-ID: <005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com>

I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here. 

How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the real
world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do my
reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't read
casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.

M~


-----Original Message-----
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I was 
in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the 
same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called 
scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced through

RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In 
many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in a

timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not 
have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the 
odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder 
to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that some

have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see the

judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting 
briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in some

states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services 
offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books 
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies 
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I 
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make 
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be 
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact 
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia 
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a 
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount 
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during 
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges 
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges 
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by 
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and 
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
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>>
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>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Sep 13 06:54:07 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:54:07 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>
	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com>
Message-ID: <26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>

The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being 
required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college and 
are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges 
providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is who 
is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to 
abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials 
electronically or otherwise.

Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>
> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the 
> real
> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do my
> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't read
> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>
> M~
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I 
> was
> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced 
> through
>
> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in 
> a
>
> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the
> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder
> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that 
> some
>
> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see 
> the
>
> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in 
> some
>
> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> Hello Chhuck,
>>
>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>
>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>> when
>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>> books
>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
>> not
>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>
>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>> from
>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>
>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
>> also
>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>> could
>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But 
>> I
>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>> any
>>
>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>> doing
>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>> these processes.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>> of
>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>> know
>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>> push
>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>
>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>>> an
>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>>> way
>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>> almost
>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>
>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>
>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
>>> be
>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>
>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>>> disabled
>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>>> register
>>> as
>>>
>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>>> use
>>> of
>>>
>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>> supervision
>>>
>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>> in
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>>> that
>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>>> to
>>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>> otherwise
>>>
>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>> services
>>>
>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>> faculty
>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>> employment
>>>
>>> setting.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>this
>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>blind,
>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>>designed
>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>
>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>texts,
>>>
>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>its
>>>
>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>format
>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>
>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>often
>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>of
>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>that
>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>and
>>>
>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>>for
>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>that
>>>
>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>
>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>>the
>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>
>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>the
>>>
>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>registration,
>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>scan
>>>
>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>to
>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>Currently
>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>same
>>>
>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>>>>at
>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>>they
>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>the
>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>>>>he
>>>>>says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>billing
>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>books
>>>
>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>us."
>>>>>
>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>is
>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>>> al.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
>>> il.com
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
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>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
>> il.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 07:28:51 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 02:28:51 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com>
	<26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
Message-ID: <013e01ca3443$db62d120$92287360$@com>

Wow, wow, wow....

I think both sides of this issue keep repeating the same thing and it seems
as though neither side is giving way of their thoughts.  

May I sweetly suggest that we discuss something else?

I think at this juncture, everyone who has commented knows the thoughts that
each holds regarding this issue.

Hope this doesn't offend anyone at all, but the subject line of this string
has grown cold.

Happy Sunday!

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 1:54 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being 
required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college and

are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges 
providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is who

is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to 
abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials 
electronically or otherwise.

Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>
> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the 
> real
> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do my
> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't read
> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>
> M~
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I 
> was
> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced 
> through
>
> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in

> a
>
> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the
> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder
> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that 
> some
>
> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see 
> the
>
> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in 
> some
>
> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> Hello Chhuck,
>>
>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>
>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>> when
>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>> books
>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
>> not
>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>
>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>> from
>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>
>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
>> also
>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>> could
>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But 
>> I
>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>> any
>>
>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>> doing
>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>> these processes.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>> of
>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>> know
>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>> push
>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>
>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>>> an
>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>>> way
>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>> almost
>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>
>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>
>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
>>> be
>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>
>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>>> disabled
>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>>> register
>>> as
>>>
>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>>> use
>>> of
>>>
>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>> supervision
>>>
>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>> in
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>>> that
>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>>> to
>>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>> otherwise
>>>
>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>> services
>>>
>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>> faculty
>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>> employment
>>>
>>> setting.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>this
>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>blind,
>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>>designed
>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>
>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>texts,
>>>
>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>its
>>>
>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>format
>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>
>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>often
>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>of
>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>that
>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>and
>>>
>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>>for
>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>that
>>>
>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>
>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>>the
>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>
>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>the
>>>
>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>registration,
>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>scan
>>>
>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>to
>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>Currently
>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>same
>>>
>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>>>>at
>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>>they
>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>the
>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>>>>he
>>>>>says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>billing
>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>books
>>>
>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>us."
>>>>>
>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>is
>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 10:08:47 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 06:08:47 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com>
	<26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
Message-ID: <4aacc4aa.85c2f10a.5b99.ffffc132@mx.google.com>

Chuck,

Are students being required to use these particular materials to study? I
did not see that in the article that was posted to  the list. Again, I
believe this may be in violation of the aDA, which gives me the right to
refuse an accommodation that I don't want. To be clear, I am not stating
that the ADA says I am entitled to whatever accommodation I unilaterally
select; I'm saying that if I want no accommodation at all, I don't have to
be accommodated. If I want to scan my own books with absolutely no help from
the school, I can do that. There might be a problem if the school requires I
use a copy they have provided rduring an open-book exam. But I've never
heard of something like this.

Angie



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 2:54 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being 
required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college and

are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges 
providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is who

is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to 
abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials 
electronically or otherwise.

Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>
> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the 
> real
> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do my
> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't read
> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>
> M~
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I 
> was
> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced 
> through
>
> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in

> a
>
> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the
> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder
> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that 
> some
>
> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see 
> the
>
> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in 
> some
>
> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> Hello Chhuck,
>>
>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>
>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>> when
>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>> books
>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
>> not
>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>
>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>> from
>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>
>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
>> also
>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>> could
>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But 
>> I
>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>> any
>>
>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>> doing
>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>> these processes.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>> of
>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>> know
>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>> push
>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>
>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>>> an
>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>>> way
>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>> almost
>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>
>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>
>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
>>> be
>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>
>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>>> disabled
>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>>> register
>>> as
>>>
>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>>> use
>>> of
>>>
>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>> supervision
>>>
>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>> in
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>>> that
>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>>> to
>>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>> otherwise
>>>
>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>> services
>>>
>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>> faculty
>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>> employment
>>>
>>> setting.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>this
>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>blind,
>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>>designed
>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>
>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>texts,
>>>
>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>its
>>>
>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>format
>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>
>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>often
>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>of
>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>that
>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>and
>>>
>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>>for
>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>that
>>>
>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>
>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>>the
>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>
>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>the
>>>
>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>registration,
>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>scan
>>>
>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>to
>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>Currently
>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>same
>>>
>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>>>>at
>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>>they
>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>the
>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>>>>he
>>>>>says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>billing
>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>books
>>>
>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>us."
>>>>>
>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>is
>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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>>> al.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
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From bspiry at comcast.net  Sun Sep 13 13:41:30 2009
From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 06:41:30 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <013e01ca3443$db62d120$92287360$@com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
	<013e01ca3443$db62d120$92287360$@com>
Message-ID: <C44B0BCF41164FE0A9192CB6934730B9@Freddy>

Agreed, move on.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:29 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Wow, wow, wow....

I think both sides of this issue keep repeating the same thing and it seems
as though neither side is giving way of their thoughts.  

May I sweetly suggest that we discuss something else?

I think at this juncture, everyone who has commented knows the thoughts that
each holds regarding this issue.

Hope this doesn't offend anyone at all, but the subject line of this string
has grown cold.

Happy Sunday!

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 1:54 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being 
required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college and

are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges 
providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is who

is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to 
abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials 
electronically or otherwise.

Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>
> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the 
> real
> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do my
> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't read
> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>
> M~
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I 
> was
> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced 
> through
>
> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in

> a
>
> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the
> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder
> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that 
> some
>
> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see 
> the
>
> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in 
> some
>
> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> Hello Chhuck,
>>
>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper fee.
>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to the
>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>
>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>> when
>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>> books
>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
>> not
>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>
>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how I
>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>> from
>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>
>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
>> also
>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>> could
>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But 
>> I
>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>> any
>>
>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working with
>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>> doing
>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and neither
>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>> these processes.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>> of
>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>> know
>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>> push
>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>
>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily make
>>> an
>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to the
>>> way
>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>> almost
>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>
>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>
>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should 
>>> be
>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>
>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>>> disabled
>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>>> register
>>> as
>>>
>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but I
>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>>> use
>>> of
>>>
>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>> supervision
>>>
>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work of
>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>> in
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>>> that
>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant learning
>>> to
>>> find and create available resources and development of increased problem
>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>> otherwise
>>>
>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>> services
>>>
>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use of
>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>> faculty
>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>> employment
>>>
>>> setting.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>this
>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>blind,
>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>>designed
>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks are
>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>
>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>texts,
>>>
>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>its
>>>
>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller the
>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>format
>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>
>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>often
>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>of
>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>that
>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>and
>>>
>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>>for
>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>that
>>>
>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>
>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>>the
>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>
>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork with
>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>the
>>>
>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>registration,
>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to process
>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>scan
>>>
>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in a
>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>to
>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>Currently
>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>same
>>>
>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education 
>>>>>at
>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>>they
>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>the
>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves, 
>>>>>he
>>>>>says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>billing
>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>books
>>>
>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>us."
>>>>>
>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>is
>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
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>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>>> al.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>
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>>> blindlaw:
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>>
>
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>> al.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
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From b75205 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 15:05:04 2009
From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:05:04 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>
	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com>
	<BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>
	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com>
	<83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>
	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com>
	<26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
Message-ID: <fe5b78280909130805t75716d45wb9acfcf989fab150@mail.gmail.com>

The other problem here is that what people deem to be accessible is not
actually accessible.  Just because a document or a webpage complies with
section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act does not make it actually accessible
to the blind.  It is infuriating when you deal with people who insist that
they followed all the rules and that the documents are certified even by the
Access Board as being accessible to the blind using the legal definition of
accessibility and yet when you actually try to use it, it is useless.

This separation between the law and reality is the problem.

James Pepper

From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Sep 13 16:20:00 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 09:20:00 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <4aacc4aa.85c2f10a.5b99.ffffc132@mx.google.com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
	<4aacc4aa.85c2f10a.5b99.ffffc132@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <AD228EB4623E4DE38A4241F0046CA4E0@spike>

while it was not in the particular article there has been some instances 
that I am aware of where students were required to use the resources of the 
college although this is an ADA violation. Some colleges attempt students 
from working independently with regard to textbooks and allowing the student 
to work out individual accommodations with faculty that are specific to 
their needs. .
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Chuck,
>
> Are students being required to use these particular materials to study? I
> did not see that in the article that was posted to  the list. Again, I
> believe this may be in violation of the aDA, which gives me the right to
> refuse an accommodation that I don't want. To be clear, I am not stating
> that the ADA says I am entitled to whatever accommodation I unilaterally
> select; I'm saying that if I want no accommodation at all, I don't have to
> be accommodated. If I want to scan my own books with absolutely no help 
> from
> the school, I can do that. There might be a problem if the school requires 
> I
> use a copy they have provided rduring an open-book exam. But I've never
> heard of something like this.
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 2:54 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being
> required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college 
> and
>
> are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges
> providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is 
> who
>
> is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to
> abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials
> electronically or otherwise.
>
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>>
>> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
>> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
>> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
>> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the
>> real
>> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do 
>> my
>> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't 
>> read
>> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
>> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
>> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>>
>> M~
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I
>> was
>> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
>> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
>> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced
>> through
>>
>> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
>> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
>> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment 
>> the
>> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit 
>> harder
>> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that
>> some
>>
>> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see
>> the
>>
>> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
>> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in
>> some
>>
>> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
>> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>> Hello Chhuck,
>>>
>>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper 
>>> fee.
>>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to 
>>> the
>>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>>
>>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>>> when
>>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>>> books
>>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going 
>>> to
>>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are
>>> not
>>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>>
>>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how 
>>> I
>>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>>> from
>>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>>
>>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I
>>> also
>>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>>> could
>>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But
>>> I
>>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>>
>>> Angie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>>> any
>>>
>>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
>>> with
>>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>>> doing
>>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
>>> neither
>>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>>> these processes.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>>> of
>>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>>> know
>>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>>> push
>>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>>>> make
>>>> an
>>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
>>>> the
>>>> way
>>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>>> almost
>>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
>>>> now
>>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>>
>>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should
>>>> be
>>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>>
>>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>>
>>>> William
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>>> Students
>>>>
>>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that
>>>> disabled
>>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to
>>>> register
>>>> as
>>>>
>>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but 
>>>> I
>>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for
>>>> use
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>>> supervision
>>>>
>>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>>>> of
>>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>>> in
>>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring
>>>> that
>>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>>>> learning
>>>> to
>>>> find and create available resources and development of increased 
>>>> problem
>>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>>> services
>>>>
>>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>>>> of
>>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>>> faculty
>>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>>> employment
>>>>
>>>> setting.
>>>> Chuck
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>>> Students
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>>blind,
>>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is
>>>>>>designed
>>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>>>>are
>>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>>texts,
>>>>
>>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>>can
>>>>
>>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>>its
>>>>
>>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>>format
>>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>>can
>>>>
>>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>>often
>>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>>>with
>>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>>registration,
>>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>>>process
>>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>>scan
>>>>
>>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>>Currently
>>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>>same
>>>>
>>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format,
>>>>>>they
>>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves,
>>>>>>he
>>>>>>says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>>billing
>>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>>books
>>>>
>>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>>us."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>>>> al.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
>>>> il.com
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>>> al.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
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>>> il.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 16:31:47 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:31:47 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <AD228EB4623E4DE38A4241F0046CA4E0@spike>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>	<4aacc4aa.85c2f10a.5b99.ffffc132@mx.google.com>
	<AD228EB4623E4DE38A4241F0046CA4E0@spike>
Message-ID: <019501ca348f$b42742c0$1c75c840$@com>

People, can we please take this off-list?

Just a suggestion.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 11:20 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

while it was not in the particular article there has been some instances 
that I am aware of where students were required to use the resources of the 
college although this is an ADA violation. Some colleges attempt students 
from working independently with regard to textbooks and allowing the student

to work out individual accommodations with faculty that are specific to 
their needs. .
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Chuck,
>
> Are students being required to use these particular materials to study? I
> did not see that in the article that was posted to  the list. Again, I
> believe this may be in violation of the aDA, which gives me the right to
> refuse an accommodation that I don't want. To be clear, I am not stating
> that the ADA says I am entitled to whatever accommodation I unilaterally
> select; I'm saying that if I want no accommodation at all, I don't have to
> be accommodated. If I want to scan my own books with absolutely no help 
> from
> the school, I can do that. There might be a problem if the school requires

> I
> use a copy they have provided rduring an open-book exam. But I've never
> heard of something like this.
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 2:54 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being
> required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college 
> and
>
> are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges
> providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is 
> who
>
> is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to
> abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials
> electronically or otherwise.
>
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>>
>> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
>> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
>> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
>> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the
>> real
>> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do 
>> my
>> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't 
>> read
>> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
>> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
>> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>>
>> M~
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I
>> was
>> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
>> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
>> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced
>> through
>>
>> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
>> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
>> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment 
>> the
>> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit 
>> harder
>> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that
>> some
>>
>> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see
>> the
>>
>> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
>> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in
>> some
>>
>> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
>> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>> Hello Chhuck,
>>>
>>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper 
>>> fee.
>>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to 
>>> the
>>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>>
>>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>>> when
>>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>>> books
>>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going 
>>> to
>>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are
>>> not
>>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>>
>>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how 
>>> I
>>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>>> from
>>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>>
>>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I
>>> also
>>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>>> could
>>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But
>>> I
>>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>>
>>> Angie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>>> any
>>>
>>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
>>> with
>>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>>> doing
>>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
>>> neither
>>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>>> these processes.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>>> of
>>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>>> know
>>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>>> push
>>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>>>> make
>>>> an
>>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
>>>> the
>>>> way
>>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>>> almost
>>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
>>>> now
>>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>>
>>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should
>>>> be
>>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>>
>>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>>
>>>> William
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>>> Students
>>>>
>>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that
>>>> disabled
>>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to
>>>> register
>>>> as
>>>>
>>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but 
>>>> I
>>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for
>>>> use
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>>> supervision
>>>>
>>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>>>> of
>>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>>> in
>>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring
>>>> that
>>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>>>> learning
>>>> to
>>>> find and create available resources and development of increased 
>>>> problem
>>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>>> services
>>>>
>>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>>>> of
>>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>>> faculty
>>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>>> employment
>>>>
>>>> setting.
>>>> Chuck
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>>> Students
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>>blind,
>>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is
>>>>>>designed
>>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>>>>are
>>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>>texts,
>>>>
>>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>>can
>>>>
>>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>>its
>>>>
>>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>>format
>>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>>can
>>>>
>>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>>often
>>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>>>with
>>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>>registration,
>>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>>>process
>>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>>scan
>>>>
>>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>>Currently
>>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>>same
>>>>
>>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format,
>>>>>>they
>>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves,
>>>>>>he
>>>>>>says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>>billing
>>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>>books
>>>>
>>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>>us."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>>>> al.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Sep 13 16:53:58 2009
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 09:53:58 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike><004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike><005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>
	<fe5b78280909130805t75716d45wb9acfcf989fab150@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C2B411061EC45FFA2D6212300D9734D@owner96190708e>

You're absolutely right. However, there's an additional wrinkle: people 
keep innovating and coming up with technologies and appearances of 
documents and/or web pages that screen reading technology can make 
neither hide nor hair of.

I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that ultimately, to legislate 
true accessibility, one must mandate that technology stays fixed.

Ain't a-gonna happen!

Mike Freeman, President
NFB of Washington

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Pepper" <b75205 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


The other problem here is that what people deem to be accessible is not
actually accessible.  Just because a document or a webpage complies with
section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act does not make it actually 
accessible
to the blind.  It is infuriating when you deal with people who insist 
that
they followed all the rules and that the documents are certified even by 
the
Access Board as being accessible to the blind using the legal definition 
of
accessibility and yet when you actually try to use it, it is useless.

This separation between the law and reality is the problem.

James Pepper
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindlaw:
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From angie.matney at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 18:05:49 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:05:49 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
In-Reply-To: <019501ca348f$b42742c0$1c75c840$@com>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike>	<004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike>	<4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike>	<005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>	<4aacc4aa.85c2f10a.5b99.ffffc132@mx.google.com>	<AD228EB4623E4DE38A4241F0046CA4E0@spike>
	<019501ca348f$b42742c0$1c75c840$@com>
Message-ID: <4aad3478.c5c2f10a.4f27.ffffc008@mx.google.com>

While the mechanics of obtaining books may not be on topic, whether or not
colleges are violating the ADA by requiring students to obtain copies of
books that the college produces does seem to be on-topic, under my
understanding of the list rules.

Chuck: Then it seems we need to work on educating college administrators,
without worrying about possible negative effects of the database mentioned
in that article. I don't think we, as an organization, can fight for access
to the Kindle ("Same books, same price, same time") and condemn other
efforts to make textbooks accessible. This doesn't mean we can't also
encourage students to scan their own books.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:32 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

People, can we please take this off-list?

Just a suggestion.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 11:20 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

while it was not in the particular article there has been some instances 
that I am aware of where students were required to use the resources of the 
college although this is an ADA violation. Some colleges attempt students 
from working independently with regard to textbooks and allowing the student

to work out individual accommodations with faculty that are specific to 
their needs. .
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Chuck,
>
> Are students being required to use these particular materials to study? I
> did not see that in the article that was posted to  the list. Again, I
> believe this may be in violation of the aDA, which gives me the right to
> refuse an accommodation that I don't want. To be clear, I am not stating
> that the ADA says I am entitled to whatever accommodation I unilaterally
> select; I'm saying that if I want no accommodation at all, I don't have to
> be accommodated. If I want to scan my own books with absolutely no help 
> from
> the school, I can do that. There might be a problem if the school requires

> I
> use a copy they have provided rduring an open-book exam. But I've never
> heard of something like this.
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 2:54 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> The issue in question is that in some colleges disabled students are being
> required to study or obtain materials on terms determined by the college 
> and
>
> are discouraged from functioning independently. In many instances colleges
> providing service are unable to do this in a timely manner. The issue is 
> who
>
> is controlling access to the service. As a student I am not willing to
> abrogate responsibility to someone else for obtaining materials
> electronically or otherwise.
>
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> I'm somewhat baffled by what appears to be a generational divide here.
>>
>> How exactly does it foster dependence to provide equal access to the same
>> books in the same time as every other student? Law school is challenging
>> enough; we shouldn't be asking our blind students to face unnecessary
>> barriers for the  supposed benefit that they will have to do so in the
>> real
>> world. In the real world where I work,  I use Westlaw and Lexus, and do 
>> my
>> reading almost entirely electronically. I would also add that I don't 
>> read
>> casebooks in the practice of law nor do I have any need to get materials
>> from RFB. . So it seems like nothing more than hazing to require that
>> students in 2009 have to live by 1970s expectations.
>>
>> M~
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net [mailto:ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I
>> was
>> in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the
>> same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called
>> scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced
>> through
>>
>> RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In
>> many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done 
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not
>> have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment 
>> the
>> odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit 
>> harder
>> to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that
>> some
>>
>> have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see
>> the
>>
>> judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting
>> briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in
>> some
>>
>> states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services
>> offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>> Hello Chhuck,
>>>
>>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books for
>>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper 
>>> fee.
>>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to 
>>> the
>>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>>
>>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>>> when
>>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>>> books
>>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
>>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going 
>>> to
>>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are
>>> not
>>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>>
>>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know how 
>>> I
>>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my own
>>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic copies
>>> from
>>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an etext
>>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be weeks
>>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>>
>>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I
>>> also
>>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>>> could
>>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. But
>>> I
>>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>>
>>> Angie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't make
>>> any
>>>
>>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
>>> with
>>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>>> doing
>>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
>>> neither
>>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't support
>>> these processes.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need to
>>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the fact
>>>> of
>>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we all
>>>> know
>>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>>>> push
>>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>>>> make
>>>> an
>>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
>>>> the
>>>> way
>>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>>> almost
>>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
>>>> now
>>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have had
>>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view things
>>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>>
>>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, should
>>>> be
>>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is unavailable.
>>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>>
>>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>>
>>>> William
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>>> Students
>>>>
>>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that
>>>> disabled
>>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to
>>>> register
>>>> as
>>>>
>>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here but 
>>>> I
>>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for
>>>> use
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>>> supervision
>>>>
>>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>>>> of
>>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring materials
>>>> in
>>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring
>>>> that
>>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>>>> learning
>>>> to
>>>> find and create available resources and development of increased 
>>>> problem
>>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>>> otherwise
>>>>
>>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to adequately
>>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>>> services
>>>>
>>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>>>> of
>>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>>> faculty
>>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>>> employment
>>>>
>>>> setting.
>>>> Chuck
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>>> Students
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>>blind,
>>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is
>>>>>>designed
>>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>>>>are
>>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it will
>>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, help
>>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>>texts,
>>>>
>>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their courses
>>>>>>can
>>>>
>>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College officials
>>>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each of
>>>>>>its
>>>>
>>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a copy
>>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>>format
>>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, the
>>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan the
>>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable format
>>>>>>can
>>>>
>>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>>often
>>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer amount
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need to
>>>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for tests
>>>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't come
>>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that puts
>>>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request and
>>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for accessibility
>>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," says
>>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>>>with
>>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the system,
>>>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>>registration,
>>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>>>process
>>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes just
>>>>>>scan
>>>>
>>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students in 
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different colleges
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>>Currently
>>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>>>same
>>>>
>>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher education
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school has
>>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format,
>>>>>>they
>>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that school
>>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those colleges
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file themselves,
>>>>>>he
>>>>>>says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million to
>>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta phase,
>>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>>billing
>>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a lot
>>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>>books
>>>>
>>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through specialized
>>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem for
>>>>>>us."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers and
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>>>> al.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 19:00:29 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:00:29 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
Message-ID: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>

Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local and/or
state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
accessible crosswalks)?  I have done some research but want to ask those who
may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
resources.

 

Thanks for any help.

 

William


From jazenmazen at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 13 19:38:39 2009
From: jazenmazen at yahoo.com (Mazen)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 15:38:39 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible Technology
In-Reply-To: <7C2B411061EC45FFA2D6212300D9734D@owner96190708e>
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike><004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike><005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>	<fe5b78280909130805t75716d45wb9acfcf989fab150@mail.gmail.com>
	<7C2B411061EC45FFA2D6212300D9734D@owner96190708e>
Message-ID: <009101ca34a9$cb3c8960$61b59c20$@com>

This is a very interesting question. Can there be any kind of regulation
that would make emerging consumer technologies accessible? I would posit
that the standard should require the incorporation of accessible design in
technology where doing so is not unduly burdensome. In other words, where
the cost of doing so is not prohibitive.  I think adopting such a regulation
would actually cost businesses far less than figuring out how to make
something accessible after the design is complete. 

This could include an access design assessment, analogous to an
environmental impact statement, that can be part of the development process.


A good example of where this kind of regulation would have made a difference
is in Ipods. it took apple nearly a decade to come out with an Ipod that has
voiceover. Is there any reason why this shouldn't have been part of the
original design?  

Thoughts?

M~


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Freeman [mailto:k7uij at panix.com] 
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:54 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

You're absolutely right. However, there's an additional wrinkle: people 
keep innovating and coming up with technologies and appearances of 
documents and/or web pages that screen reading technology can make 
neither hide nor hair of.

I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that ultimately, to legislate 
true accessibility, one must mandate that technology stays fixed.

Ain't a-gonna happen!

Mike Freeman, President
NFB of Washington

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Pepper" <b75205 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


The other problem here is that what people deem to be accessible is not
actually accessible.  Just because a document or a webpage complies with
section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act does not make it actually 
accessible
to the blind.  It is infuriating when you deal with people who insist 
that
they followed all the rules and that the documents are certified even by 
the
Access Board as being accessible to the blind using the legal definition 
of
accessibility and yet when you actually try to use it, it is useless.

This separation between the law and reality is the problem.

James Pepper
_______________________________________________
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From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 13 22:02:16 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:02:16 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
In-Reply-To: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
References: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W1DDFA96810F1E20543FD2CFE50@phx.gbl>


Wlliam, its Tim, email me at my work email. There is a group doing a basic advocacy training a week fro Monday, the 21st. One of the things covered will be dealing with elected officials. You could talk your VR Counselor into paying for transportation to the training if you needed. It will be here in the Houston area. If you email me at my work email I can forward you the information on the training and how to contact the group about the training.

 

Tim timothy.shaw at dars.state.tx.us
 
> From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:00:29 -0500
> Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
> 
> Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local and/or
> state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
> accessible crosswalks)? I have done some research but want to ask those who
> may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
> resources.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> 
> 
> William
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/

From fwlopez at comcast.net  Sun Sep 13 22:10:20 2009
From: fwlopez at comcast.net (Fred Wright Lopez)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 15:10:20 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
In-Reply-To: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
References: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
Message-ID: <D9751EC7-FA5B-4BD5-AC8B-DC518B0FA801@comcast.net>

William
Your state and county of residence would likely determine your  
approach in this matter.   I reside in a suburb near san Francisco,  
CA.  For several years I have been involved in transit issues (audible  
signal lights, curb ramp cutouts, tactile dome mats, smart crosswalks,  
paratransit and fixed route services).   For a few years I sat as my  
city's representative on a county transportation advisory committee.    
Waht I've taken away from all of this is as follows:   The State has  
retains jurisdictional responsibility for State operated bridges,  
highways and freeways in California.   For historical reasons, many  
former highways particularly in urban areas have become local streets  
or boulevards.   However, the State retains ownership and therefore  
all maintenance responsibility including that for any signal systems  
or crosswalks.   All other streets, roads and siganl systems are the  
responsibility of the local City authority (or if in an unincorporated  
area, the local County).  In each instance the Public Works Department  
has authority for maintenance of local roads, signal systems and  
crosswalks.  At the State level, the California Department of  
Transportation has the corresponding responsibility for state operated  
highways, streets, signal systems and corsswalks.

It is my understanding that every state and by extension every county  
and city that is a recipient of Federal Transportation Highway funds  
is required to develope Short and Long Term Transportation Plans.   In  
California the short range plans are five years and the long range  
plans are twenty years.   These plans must also be modified and  
updated in accordance with changed circumstances.   Most large urban  
areas have Metropolitan Transportation Agencies, which serve as  
repositories for all Transportation Plans form local county  
transportation agencies.   The Federal Highway Transportation Agency  
has a web site with extensive ADA compliance information.   In sum,  
State, County and local municipalities must assure that their streets,  
roads and pedestrian crossings are complaint with the Americans with  
Disabilities Act...   For at least   a decade or two, these  
jurisdictions have been required to complete an inventory of streets,  
roads and pedestrian corssing that do or do not meet ADA compliance  
standards and specify plans for correction.

How individual jurisdictions go about this ADA compliance is both at  
times a mystery and baffling.  Many jurisdictions through responding  
to local pressure have undertaken extensive ADA correctie actions.    
San Francisco, Berkeley and Oakland for example have for decades  
installed and maintained audible signal systems, curb cutouts and  
other other ADA complaint measures.  Yet smaller jurisdictions simply  
ignore these ADA requirements or continually postpone them citing  
financial constrains.  Absent local citizen pressure or the filing of  
a legal complaint for ADA non compliance no corrective action is taken.

With regard to corsswalks, if it is a local issue, your best coruse of  
action is to approach your local public works department in your city  
and aks for the short or long term transit plan and for any vehicle or  
pedestrain flow studies that pertain to said crosswalk or lack there  
of.   In my experience, the engineers at these public works  
departments are friendly and generally aware that many of their  
streets are non ADA compliant but will tell you that the problem is  
MONEY and PRIORITIES.   If its a state road, the State Transportation  
Agency will have simailr data on the lcoal road or intersection of  
concern to you.

If you are trying to get a crosswalk, a stop sign or a city signal  
light (hopefully one that is audible) that you should only go to your  
local city council person or state representative after you have done  
your research, spoken with the traffic engineers in your city, county  
or State Transportation agency.   The best success I have had locally  
is when I have been abel to build coalitions with seniors, the  
disabled, local schools and parents and churches.

Hope this is of some help.


Fred W. Lopez

On Sep 13, 2009, at 12:00 PM, WB wrote:

> Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local  
> and/or
> state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
> accessible crosswalks)?  I have done some research but want to ask  
> those who
> may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
> resources.
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> William
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fwlopez%40comcast.net



From k7uij at panix.com  Sun Sep 13 22:37:59 2009
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 15:37:59 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible Technology
References: <auto-000117245687@mailfront2.g2host.com><0F04FCD67AD04E50BBCEFBE88B18640C@spike><004b01ca2fe4$f14bdc10$d3e39430$@com><BF44CF3A3C5B48C3A5686B871D56AC5D@spike><4aa591c9.02c3f10a.3629.ffffe495@mx.google.com><83CAA5A591B34E90A1FDC671C640EE6F@spike><005801ca33d4$0fc62e50$2f528af0$@com><26DF3ADC32444453B7B53D64E4A9B4E8@spike>	<fe5b78280909130805t75716d45wb9acfcf989fab150@mail.gmail.com><7C2B411061EC45FFA2D6212300D9734D@owner96190708e>
	<009101ca34a9$cb3c8960$61b59c20$@com>
Message-ID: <A80630746157473D947446EC9A93F42D@owner96190708e>

Believe me: there'd be arguments as to what accessibility actually 
means, whether any design was or was not accessible and on and on ad 
nauseum. "Accessibility" is best understood in the negative, that is, we 
all know something is *not* accessible. It is far less easy to define 
when something truly is accessible in that this requires us to assess 
user competence with accessibility tools as well as whether any given 
task can be made easily accessible without disrupting the existing 
technology. Example: the iPhone accessible interface is absolutely 
different from the regular interface. IN the case of something like 
making an insulin pump fully accessible, much care and thought needs to 
go into such things as how to verbally make accesssible trend graphs 
etc. (Same for  continuous bg monitors.)

Anyway, I think accessibility is sort of like the late Potter Stewart's 
definition of porn: I can't define it but I know it when I see it!

Mike Freeman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mazen" <jazenmazen at yahoo.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:38 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Accessible Technology


This is a very interesting question. Can there be any kind of regulation
that would make emerging consumer technologies accessible? I would posit
that the standard should require the incorporation of accessible design 
in
technology where doing so is not unduly burdensome. In other words, 
where
the cost of doing so is not prohibitive.  I think adopting such a 
regulation
would actually cost businesses far less than figuring out how to make
something accessible after the design is complete.

This could include an access design assessment, analogous to an
environmental impact statement, that can be part of the development 
process.


A good example of where this kind of regulation would have made a 
difference
is in Ipods. it took apple nearly a decade to come out with an Ipod that 
has
voiceover. Is there any reason why this shouldn't have been part of the
original design?

Thoughts?

M~


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Freeman [mailto:k7uij at panix.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:54 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

You're absolutely right. However, there's an additional wrinkle: people
keep innovating and coming up with technologies and appearances of
documents and/or web pages that screen reading technology can make
neither hide nor hair of.

I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that ultimately, to legislate
true accessibility, one must mandate that technology stays fixed.

Ain't a-gonna happen!

Mike Freeman, President
NFB of Washington

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Pepper" <b75205 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


The other problem here is that what people deem to be accessible is not
actually accessible.  Just because a document or a webpage complies with
section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act does not make it actually
accessible
to the blind.  It is infuriating when you deal with people who insist
that
they followed all the rules and that the documents are certified even by
the
Access Board as being accessible to the blind using the legal definition
of
accessibility and yet when you actually try to use it, it is useless.

This separation between the law and reality is the problem.

James Pepper
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From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 23:18:13 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:18:13 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
In-Reply-To: <D9751EC7-FA5B-4BD5-AC8B-DC518B0FA801@comcast.net>
References: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
	<D9751EC7-FA5B-4BD5-AC8B-DC518B0FA801@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <01c401ca34c8$7c559ed0$7500dc70$@com>

Fred,

That was a great help!  You gave me a few other ideas that I hadn't thought
of...Thanks so much!  You're appreciated.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Wright Lopez
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 5:10 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals

William
Your state and county of residence would likely determine your  
approach in this matter.   I reside in a suburb near san Francisco,  
CA.  For several years I have been involved in transit issues (audible  
signal lights, curb ramp cutouts, tactile dome mats, smart crosswalks,  
paratransit and fixed route services).   For a few years I sat as my  
city's representative on a county transportation advisory committee.    
Waht I've taken away from all of this is as follows:   The State has  
retains jurisdictional responsibility for State operated bridges,  
highways and freeways in California.   For historical reasons, many  
former highways particularly in urban areas have become local streets  
or boulevards.   However, the State retains ownership and therefore  
all maintenance responsibility including that for any signal systems  
or crosswalks.   All other streets, roads and siganl systems are the  
responsibility of the local City authority (or if in an unincorporated  
area, the local County).  In each instance the Public Works Department  
has authority for maintenance of local roads, signal systems and  
crosswalks.  At the State level, the California Department of  
Transportation has the corresponding responsibility for state operated  
highways, streets, signal systems and corsswalks.

It is my understanding that every state and by extension every county  
and city that is a recipient of Federal Transportation Highway funds  
is required to develope Short and Long Term Transportation Plans.   In  
California the short range plans are five years and the long range  
plans are twenty years.   These plans must also be modified and  
updated in accordance with changed circumstances.   Most large urban  
areas have Metropolitan Transportation Agencies, which serve as  
repositories for all Transportation Plans form local county  
transportation agencies.   The Federal Highway Transportation Agency  
has a web site with extensive ADA compliance information.   In sum,  
State, County and local municipalities must assure that their streets,  
roads and pedestrian crossings are complaint with the Americans with  
Disabilities Act...   For at least   a decade or two, these  
jurisdictions have been required to complete an inventory of streets,  
roads and pedestrian corssing that do or do not meet ADA compliance  
standards and specify plans for correction.

How individual jurisdictions go about this ADA compliance is both at  
times a mystery and baffling.  Many jurisdictions through responding  
to local pressure have undertaken extensive ADA correctie actions.    
San Francisco, Berkeley and Oakland for example have for decades  
installed and maintained audible signal systems, curb cutouts and  
other other ADA complaint measures.  Yet smaller jurisdictions simply  
ignore these ADA requirements or continually postpone them citing  
financial constrains.  Absent local citizen pressure or the filing of  
a legal complaint for ADA non compliance no corrective action is taken.

With regard to corsswalks, if it is a local issue, your best coruse of  
action is to approach your local public works department in your city  
and aks for the short or long term transit plan and for any vehicle or  
pedestrain flow studies that pertain to said crosswalk or lack there  
of.   In my experience, the engineers at these public works  
departments are friendly and generally aware that many of their  
streets are non ADA compliant but will tell you that the problem is  
MONEY and PRIORITIES.   If its a state road, the State Transportation  
Agency will have simailr data on the lcoal road or intersection of  
concern to you.

If you are trying to get a crosswalk, a stop sign or a city signal  
light (hopefully one that is audible) that you should only go to your  
local city council person or state representative after you have done  
your research, spoken with the traffic engineers in your city, county  
or State Transportation agency.   The best success I have had locally  
is when I have been abel to build coalitions with seniors, the  
disabled, local schools and parents and churches.

Hope this is of some help.


Fred W. Lopez

On Sep 13, 2009, at 12:00 PM, WB wrote:

> Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local  
> and/or
> state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
> accessible crosswalks)?  I have done some research but want to ask  
> those who
> may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
> resources.
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> William
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/fwlopez%40comcast.
net


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
il.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 23:23:22 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:23:22 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W1DDFA96810F1E20543FD2CFE50@phx.gbl>
References: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
	<BAY139-W1DDFA96810F1E20543FD2CFE50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <01c601ca34c9$33818ec0$9a84ac40$@com>

Thanks Tim.  I just shot you an e-mail.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tim Shaw
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 5:02 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals


Wlliam, its Tim, email me at my work email. There is a group doing a basic
advocacy training a week fro Monday, the 21st. One of the things covered
will be dealing with elected officials. You could talk your VR Counselor
into paying for transportation to the training if you needed. It will be
here in the Houston area. If you email me at my work email I can forward you
the information on the training and how to contact the group about the
training.

 

Tim timothy.shaw at dars.state.tx.us
 
> From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:00:29 -0500
> Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
> 
> Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local
and/or
> state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
> accessible crosswalks)? I have done some research but want to ask those
who
> may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
> resources.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> 
> 
> William
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot
mail.com

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

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database 4397 (20090905) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 14 05:52:59 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:52:59 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
In-Reply-To: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
References: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
Message-ID: <4758FD7C22C64B07A265DDF92117994B@spike>

I have done quite a bit of work with legislators and city councils on 
various topics. You can contact me of list by email or by phone to discuss 
this.
Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals


> Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local 
> and/or
> state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
> accessible crosswalks)?  I have done some research but want to ask those 
> who
> may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
> resources.
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> William
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 




From JFreeh at nfb.org  Mon Sep 14 16:29:57 2009
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:29:57 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind and Motorola to
 Cooperate on Making Cell Phones Accessible to the Blind
Message-ID: <auto-000118660622@mailfront2.g2host.com>



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

<mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org



Jennifer Erickson

Motorola, Inc.

(847) 435-5320

Jennifer.erickson at motorola.com


National Federation of the Blind and Motorola
  to Cooperate on Making Cell Phones Accessible to the Blind



Baltimore, Maryland and Libertyville, Illinois (September 14, 2009): 
The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest 
organization of blind people and the leading advocate for making 
mainstream devices accessible to the blind, and Motorola Inc., a 
leading manufacturer of cell phones and other mobile communications 
devices, announced today that they have entered into a cooperation 
agreement to promote technologies that improve the accessibility of 
cell phones to blind consumers.



Certain future Motorola cell phones will provide verbal readouts of 
information such as the time and date, battery level, signal 
strength, user's phone number, caller ID information for incoming 
calls, missed and received calls, and voice mail alerts.  Blind users 
will also be able to take advantage of verbal readouts and 
voice-command features for ring tone status, inputting and accessing 
contacts, and various other settings.  Motorola expects these cell 
phones to be available in 2010.  The parties have also agreed to work 
together to make additional phones and features accessible to blind users.



Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, 
said: "In an age where productivity and success increasingly depend 
on access to mobile technology such as cellular telephones, it is 
critical that blind Americans have equal access to today's cell 
phones through user interfaces that do not require vision.  The 
National Federation of the Blind appreciates Motorola's commitment to 
making the features of its cell phone products accessible to blind 
users without the need for third-party software, and we look forward 
to working together with Motorola to make future improvements to the 
accessibility of telecommunication technology."



###





From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 17:09:41 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:09:41 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind and Motorola to
	Cooperate on Making Cell Phones Accessible to the Blind
In-Reply-To: <auto-000118660622@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000118660622@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <00fa01ca355e$2880fb60$7982f220$@com>

This is really great.  Between this, I-Phone and the various other mobile
phones, we are definitely coming a long way.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Freeh, Jessica (by way of David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>)
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 11:30 AM
To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind and Motorola to
Cooperate on Making Cell Phones Accessible to the Blind



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

<mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org



Jennifer Erickson

Motorola, Inc.

(847) 435-5320

Jennifer.erickson at motorola.com


National Federation of the Blind and Motorola
  to Cooperate on Making Cell Phones Accessible to the Blind



Baltimore, Maryland and Libertyville, Illinois (September 14, 2009): 
The National Federation of the Blind, the nation's oldest and largest 
organization of blind people and the leading advocate for making 
mainstream devices accessible to the blind, and Motorola Inc., a 
leading manufacturer of cell phones and other mobile communications 
devices, announced today that they have entered into a cooperation 
agreement to promote technologies that improve the accessibility of 
cell phones to blind consumers.



Certain future Motorola cell phones will provide verbal readouts of 
information such as the time and date, battery level, signal 
strength, user's phone number, caller ID information for incoming 
calls, missed and received calls, and voice mail alerts.  Blind users 
will also be able to take advantage of verbal readouts and 
voice-command features for ring tone status, inputting and accessing 
contacts, and various other settings.  Motorola expects these cell 
phones to be available in 2010.  The parties have also agreed to work 
together to make additional phones and features accessible to blind users.



Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, 
said: "In an age where productivity and success increasingly depend 
on access to mobile technology such as cellular telephones, it is 
critical that blind Americans have equal access to today's cell 
phones through user interfaces that do not require vision.  The 
National Federation of the Blind appreciates Motorola's commitment to 
making the features of its cell phone products accessible to blind 
users without the need for third-party software, and we look forward 
to working together with Motorola to make future improvements to the 
accessibility of telecommunication technology."



###




_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
il.com



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 14 19:34:51 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:34:51 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: DREDF eNews Flash - Trial Starts against Social
	Security
Message-ID: <F58A24F769F64CC49C7C780797BAAB31@spike>

News Flash | September 2009        Thought this would be of interest.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Susan Henderson 
To: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net 
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 5:44 AM
Subject: DREDF eNews Flash - Trial Starts against Social Security


     NEWS FLASH

      ACB vs. SSA
      Trial Begins
     
      September 14, 2009  


        Dear Friends,

        After four years of litigation, DREDF and co-counsel Howrey LLP, head to trial this morning, September 14, 2009, on behalf of the American Council of the Blind (ACB) and a class of 3,000,000 blind and visually impaired plaintiffs. In a class action lawsuit filed under Section 504, plaintiffs are challenging the Social Security Administration's (SSA) failure to provide its communications in alternative formats that would enable people with visual impairments to have equal access to the agency's programs.

        SSA's failure to provide alternative formats has resulted in the loss of critical benefits, privacy and dignity for individuals who depend on Social Security benefits.

        The trial begins at 7:30 a.m., before Judge William Alsup, in Courtroom 9, at the US District Court for the Northern District of California, 450 Golden Gate Avenue, San Francisco, CA. The trial is expected to last for about two weeks.

        © 2009 








--------------------------------------------------------------------------

       

      Combined Federal Campaign #11944


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Support DREDF when you shop.

      Changing the Present

      iGive


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      CONTACT DREDF:
      info at dredf.org 
      www.dredf.org
      2212 Sixth Street
      Berkeley, CA 94710
      510-644-2555
     
      





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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United States


From benkarpilow at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 20:53:23 2009
From: benkarpilow at gmail.com (Ben Karpilow)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:53:23 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals
References: <01ad01ca34a4$785ad4e0$69107ea0$@com>
Message-ID: <0EB2B8E1981F4FBEB691E01DCF34B38E@benbpgavlhgwwr>

Here in Santa Rosa California, the City has an ADA coordinator whose job it 
is to monitor and  facilitate ADA compliance. Recently,  the City's ADA 
coordinator distributed a questionairre  asking for citizen input regarding 
accessibility. Using that feedback, the City conducted an assessment and 
determined which locations warranted expenditure of funds set aside for ADA 
compliance.  In this way, the City was able to target locations deemed most 
inaccissible by its citizens, a most proper way of doing things, I think. I 
Hope this helps.

Ben

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Municipal and Legislative Proposals


> Does anyone in the list have experience with approaching their local 
> and/or
> state legislature with proposals to improve various issue points (i.e.
> accessible crosswalks)?  I have done some research but want to ask those 
> who
> may have experience in this for their suggestions as to approach and
> resources.
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> William
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/benkarpilow%40gmail.com 



From Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV  Tue Sep 15 15:08:41 2009
From: Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV (Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR))
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 11:08:41 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Civil Rights Analyst Jobs at HHS/OCR
Message-ID: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1016DF88B@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>

I am posting the following job announcements for two positions within
the Office for Civil Rights, Department of Health and Human Services.
The web site will let you look at the specific announcement and duties
of the Civil Rights analyst positions.  Essentially, they are subject
matter experts on specific Civil Rights areas, i.e. health disparities,
Olmstead disability work, etc.

 

Announcement Number:  

 

HHS-OS-14-2009-0019 (DE) status and non status can apply under DE 

http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=83229646&JobTitle=Senior+He
alth+Information+Technology+and+Privacy+Specialist&vw=d&brd=3876&ss=0&Fe
dEmp=Y&FedPub=Y&q=HHS-OS-14-2009-0018&pg=1&re=0&AVSDM=2009-09-08+00:03:0
0 

 

http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=83199662&JobTitle=Deputy+Re
gional+Manager&q=HHS-OS-14-2009-0008+&sort=rv,-dtex&vw=b&re=134&FedEmp=N
&FedPub=Y&jbf565=&caller=default.aspx&AVSDM=2009-09-03+10:52:00

USAJOBS - Search Jobs  

 

HHS-OS-14-2009-0020 (MP) status candidates only   

USAJOBS - Search Jobs 

 

Title: Civil Rights Analyst- GS-0160-14 

 

Promotion potentials: None 

 

Opening date: Thursday, September 10, 2009 

 

Closing date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 

 

Location:  Washington, DC 

 

Number positions: 2  

 

Civil Rights Analyst  

 

table with 2 columns and 4 rows

SALARY RANGE: 102,721.00 - 133,543.00 USD /year 

 

OPEN PERIOD: Thursday, September 10, 2009

to Wednesday, September 30, 2009  

 

SERIES & GRADE: GS-0160-14/14 

 

POSITION INFORMATION: Full Time Permanent  

 

PROMOTION POTENTIAL: 14 

 

DUTY LOCATIONS:   vacancy(s) in one of the following locations:   2
vacancies - Washington DC, DC  

 

WHO MAY BE CONSIDERED:   

 

This is a competitive vacancy, open to all United States citizens, 

 

advertised under the Delegated Examining Authority. 

 

 

This vacancy is concurrently advertised under merit promotion 

 

(MP) procedures for status candidates under announcement HHS-OS-14-

 

2009-0020. Candidates who wish to be considered under both 

 

procedures 

 

MUST apply to both vacancies. 

table end

 

  

 


From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 02:12:05 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:12:05 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] JAWS Compatible Yahoo Messenger
Message-ID: <02da01ca373c$456c4790$d044d6b0$@com>

Good evening folks.  I know this is not the regular topic on here, but could
anyone tell me which version of yahoo messenger is compatible with JAWS and
where I can download it?

 

Thanks!

 

William


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Fri Sep 18 06:44:49 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:44:49 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Eoc approves proposed regulations for public comment
Message-ID: <D4E598E91B6241D99FE847E856694C2D@spike>

        FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE � 
CONTACT:� Justine Lisser
Wednesday, Sept. 16, 2009 
Charles Robbins (202) 663-4191
�
COMMISSION APPROVES PROPOSED ADA REGULATIONS FOR PUBLIC COMMENT
New Regulations Conform to Changes Made by ADA Amendments Act of 2008
�
WASHINGTON:  The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) today approved a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) revising its regulations to provide that an individual seeking protection under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) establish that he or she has a disability consistent with the original, expansive intent of Congress when it enacted the ADA in 1990.� The NPRM, approved by 2-1 vote, carries a 60-day period for public comment.
�
The NPRM makes several significant changes to the definition of the term "disability"� necessitated by enactment of the ADA Amendments Act of 2008.� The NPRM is posted on the Commission's website, www.eeoc.gov, along with a question-and-answer guide about the proposal and instructions for submitting public comments. 
�
"Today's Commission action marks a key step in implementing the landmark Amendments Act, which will smooth the road for those trying to establish disability under the ADA," said Acting EEOC Chairman Stuart J. Ishimaru.  "The Commission acted following careful and thorough deliberations, and we look forward to reviewing any and all public comments before issuing our final regulation."
� 
Acting EEOC Vice Chair Christine M. Griffin said, "Congress recognized that the intent of the ADA was being misread, that its goals were being compromised, and that action had to be taken.� These regulations will shift the focus of the courts away from further narrowing the definition of disability, and put it back where Congress intended when the ADA was enacted in 1990."
� 
The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), an antidiscrimination statute, was signed into law in July 1990. The EEOC is responsible for enforcing Title I of the ADA, which prohibits employment discrimination against individuals with disabilities. The statute requires employers to make reasonable accommodations to employees and job applicants with disabilities, defined as people with mental or physical impairments that substantially limit a major life activity, persons with a record of a disability, or who, while not actually disabled, are regarded as disabled.
� 
The ADA Amendments Act, which went into effect Jan. 1, 2009, states that Congress expects the EEOC to revise its regulations to conform to changes made by the Act, and expressly authorizes the EEOC to do so.� The new law rejected the holdings in several Supreme Court decisions and portions of EEOC's ADA regulations that Congress believed construed the definition of "disability"� too narrowly, preventing individuals with impairments such as cancer, diabetes, epilepsy, multiple sclerosis, muscular dystrophy, post-traumatic stress disorder, and bipolar disorder from bringing discrimination claims.� The ADA Amendments Act (ADAAA) and the proposed rule make it easier for an individual alleging employment discrimination based on disability to establish that he or she meets the ADA's definition of "disability."� The ADA Amendments Act also modifies the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, which prohibits employment discrimination in the federal workforce on the basis of disability.

The EEOC voted June 17 to adopt the rules changes, which then went to the Office of Management and Budget for review, and to federal agencies.

Consistent with the ADAAA, the NPRM emphasizes that the definition of disability -- an impairment that poses a substantial limitation in a major life activity -- must be construed in favor of broad coverage of individuals to the maximum extent permitted by the terms of the ADA, and should not require extensive analysis; that major life activities include "major bodily functions"; that mitigating measures, such as medications and devices that people use to reduce or eliminate the effects of an impairment, are not to be considered when determining whether someone has a disability; and that impairments that are episodic or in remission, such as epilepsy, cancer, and many kinds of psychiatric impairments, are disabilities if they would "substantially limit"� major life activities when active.� The regulation also provides a more straightforward way of demonstrating a substantial limitation in the major life activity of working, and implements the ADAAA's new standard for determining whether someone is "regarded as" as having a disability.� 
�
The 60-day public comment period on the proposed rule-making will officially commence upon publication of the NPRM in the Federal Register, which is expected to be published the week of September 21, 2009.� The EEOC encourages the public to offer its views and suggestions.
�
The EEOC is responsible for enforcing federal laws prohibiting employment discrimination. Further information about the EEOC is available on its web site at www.eeoc.gov.

 

From Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov  Fri Sep 18 18:54:23 2009
From: Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov (Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC))
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:54:23 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: EEOC sets date to release amended ADA
Message-ID: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE107ED7271@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>

 

 

From: ADA-OSU [mailto:ada-osu at osu.edu] 
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 2:43 PM
To: ADA-OSU
Subject: EEOC sets date to release amended ADA

 

The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) has approved the
proposed ADA regulations for public comment.  These proposed regulations
make changes to the definition of disability as a result of the ADA
Amendments Act.  The 60-day comment period will begin upon the actual
upon publication of the NPRM in the Federal Register, which is expected
to be published the week of September 21, 2009.  Please note that EEOC
is encouraging the public to offer its view and suggestions during the
60-day public comment period.   A question and answer guide is also
available on the EEOC website at
http://eeoc.gov/policy/docs/qanda_adaaa_nprm.html
<http://eeoc.gov/policy/docs/qanda_adaaa_nprm.html> 


From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 21:19:41 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 16:19:41 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Paralegal Job Interview
Message-ID: <003301ca396e$ea132730$be397590$@com>

Good afternoon all!

 

For awhile, I've placed posts on the list seeking out suggestions on how to
get back into the legal field as a paralegal after losing my sight nearly
two years ago.

 

Since Thursday evening, I have heard from three different firms.  One
interview is Monday evening, the second is Tuesday afternoon and the third
has not been scheduled yet.

 

I'm a bit nervous, not with my skill set, but in overcoming the thoughts by
some that blind people cannot work adequately.  I do not wish to start a
conversation about philosophical matters, but rather if any of you would
have suggestions as to how to make these interviews be more effective.

 

I will focus primarily on my skills and knowledge.  I will, at the time of
my interview, face head on the issue of blindness.  My thought was to take
my laptop with me to showcase just how I would be able to perform work since
most don't know of screen readers, etc.  This is just a thought of mine.  If
any of you have better suggestions, please do share.this is my first foray
since losing my sight and could use the assistance.

 

Thanks!

 

William


From rfarber at jw.com  Sat Sep 19 22:47:15 2009
From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:47:15 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Paralegal Job Interview
In-Reply-To: <003301ca396e$ea132730$be397590$@com>
References: <003301ca396e$ea132730$be397590$@com>
Message-ID: <8EA167BDF4483449B67BBE3BFCB648F10D414662@pdc-mail01.jwllp.com>

That's great.  What are the firms?  Perhaps I know someone at them.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:20 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Paralegal Job Interview

Good afternoon all!

 

For awhile, I've placed posts on the list seeking out suggestions on how
to
get back into the legal field as a paralegal after losing my sight
nearly
two years ago.

 

Since Thursday evening, I have heard from three different firms.  One
interview is Monday evening, the second is Tuesday afternoon and the
third
has not been scheduled yet.

 

I'm a bit nervous, not with my skill set, but in overcoming the thoughts
by
some that blind people cannot work adequately.  I do not wish to start a
conversation about philosophical matters, but rather if any of you would
have suggestions as to how to make these interviews be more effective.

 

I will focus primarily on my skills and knowledge.  I will, at the time
of
my interview, face head on the issue of blindness.  My thought was to
take
my laptop with me to showcase just how I would be able to perform work
since
most don't know of screen readers, etc.  This is just a thought of mine.
If
any of you have better suggestions, please do share.this is my first
foray
since losing my sight and could use the assistance.

 

Thanks!

 

William

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.c
om


From sarahandfamily at live.com  Mon Sep 21 18:23:36 2009
From: sarahandfamily at live.com (Sarah)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:23:36 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] law school information
Message-ID: <BLU142-DS5B3202C9A4389D526CCE6B7DD0@phx.gbl>

        Hello. I plan to graduate college in 2011. When do I need to start applying to law schools? How many schools should I apply to? Is there anything I can do now to prepare for the LSAT's? Is the material available in an accessible format?  Thank you. 
    Sarah 

From jts220 at charter.net  Mon Sep 21 19:14:21 2009
From: jts220 at charter.net (jts220 at charter.net)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:14:21 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] law school information
In-Reply-To: <BLU142-DS5B3202C9A4389D526CCE6B7DD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20090921151421.3AB2V.5415625.root@mp08>

Sarah:
Start applying next year.  Before you take the LSAT.  Take a prep course for the LSAT.  I did not and bombed it.  I took the bar prep course and passed with flying colors.  Don't know if the test is available in different format but I would think it must be.
Josh Smith, Esq.
---- Sarah <sarahandfamily at live.com> wrote: 
>         Hello. I plan to graduate college in 2011. When do I need to start applying to law schools? How many schools should I apply to? Is there anything I can do now to prepare for the LSAT's? Is the material available in an accessible format?  Thank you. 
>     Sarah 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jts220%40charter.net



From info at michaelhingson.com  Tue Sep 22 03:08:48 2009
From: info at michaelhingson.com (Michael Hingson)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 22:08:48 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] On-line Demonstrations of KNFB Reader Mobile Software
 and Nokia N86
Message-ID: <auto-000118121520@mailfront1.g2host.com>

The National Federation of the Blind and The Michael Hingson Group 
will hold online demonstrations and discussions of the KnfbReader 
Mobile this Friday afternoon, September 25, 2009, and Saturday, 
September 26, 2009.  The purpose of these meetings is to showcase the 
KnfbReader Mobile using the new Nokia N86 platform.  "We are excited 
about the possibilities afforded by the Nokia N86 and its ability to 
support the KnfbReader Mobile in the future", states Michael Hingson 
president of The Michael Hingson Group.

During these online sessions we will discuss the features of the 
KnfbReader Mobile as well as pricing and availability with the Nokia 
N86.  The N86 has many new and interesting features not available on 
earlier platforms supported by the KnfbReader Mobile.  These sessions 
will be of interest both to existing users as well as those who are 
interested in purchasing a Reader in the future.  After opening 
presentations Michael Hingson will take questions on all aspects of 
the reader.  Those who received this announcement are invited to 
encourage their friends and colleagues to join the session so that as 
many as possible can learn about this amazing device which is 
changing the lives of many blind people throughout the world.

If you have questions or want to learn more about decay NFB reader 
mobile please contact: Michael Hingson
   Email:  <mailto:info at michaelhingson.com>info at michaelhingson.com
   (415) 827-4084

   Date:  Friday September 25, 2009.

   Time:  2:00 P.M. Pacific, 3:00 P.M. Mountain, 4:00 P.M. Central, 
5:00 P.M. Eastern, and elsewhere in the world 21:00 GMT Friday September 25.

   Date:  Saturday September 26, 2009.

   Time:  10:00 A.M. Pacific, 11:00 A.M. Mountain, 12:00 P.M. 
Central, 1:00 P.M. Eastern, and elsewhere in the world 18:00 GMT 
Saturday September 26.


   Where:  KnfbReader Mobile conference room: which you can locate by 
clicking on the following 
link: 
<http://74.208.96.53/masteradmin/room.asp?id=rsb18eeae3cfd2>Enter the 
Conference Room Here

   Or, alternatively,

   <http://74.208.96.53/masteradmin/room.asp?id=rsb18eeae3cfd2>http://74.208.96.53/masteradmin/room.asp?id=rsb18eeae3cfd2.

After reaching the conference room entry page follow the instructions 
to enter the conference room itself.  No password is required.

   We will record the event and put it on Michael Hingson's web site 
<http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com 
so if you are unable to participate live at the above times then you 
may download the presentation or podcast from the website listed above.
   This online interactive program requires no password, is free of
   Charge, and open to anyone worldwide having an Internet connection, a
   Computer, speakers, and a sound card. Those with microphones can
   interact audibly with the presenters and others in the virtual
   audience.

   If you are a first-time user of the Talking Communities online
   conferencing software, there is a small, safe software program that
   you need to download and then run. A link to the software is available
   On the entry screen to the online conference room.



The Michael Hingson Group
      "Speaking with Vision"
                  Michael Hingson, President
                          (415) 827-4084
                    <mailto:info at michaelhingson.com>info at michaelhingson.com
                    www.michaelhingson.com


for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
<http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com/>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
<http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com/>
http://michaelhingson.com/images/knfbReader-michael_hingson.jpg

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From agtolentino at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 08:01:14 2009
From: agtolentino at gmail.com (Aser Tolentino)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:01:14 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
Message-ID: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive technology
question. I’m a 3L in Northern California, and have been interning with area
DA’s offices. I started out in one office working misdemeanor files; that
office paired me with an intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a
different office where I helped the felony unit out with research and
preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with one of those
big office scanners, which I then ran through Kurzweil 1000 OCR. I’m now at
a third office that doesn’t have one of those wonderful multifunction
scanners readily at hand and am thinking my Canon flatbed isn’t up to the
task when I’m handed a file an inch thick.



I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I committed myself
though, I figured I’d ask if there was something in the OCR solutions market
that was better/faster: is there something purpose-built to handle this sort
of thing?



Any advice, including telling me I’m going about this all wrong (perhaps
especially that), would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks,

Aser

From roddj12 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 22 08:27:25 2009
From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 04:27:25 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
In-Reply-To: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT128-DS1812D3AEB0BA81BF2748ADBBDC0@phx.gbl>


Aser, the scanner you are thinking about in my view, is too slow for the 
type of work you need it for. I would suggest that you go with a much 
higher-end scanner, like the Fujitsu 6140, and up. Angie has had great 
success with the ABBYY finereader, I haven't used it but based on her 
experience, if you can I would add that to the package. Good luck.

Rod Alcidonis, J.D.




--------------------------------------------------
From: "Aser Tolentino" <agtolentino at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:01 AM
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR

> Hi All,
>
> This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive technology
> question. IÂ’m a 3L in Northern California, and have been interning with 
> area
> DAÂ’s offices. I started out in one office working misdemeanor files; that
> office paired me with an intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a
> different office where I helped the felony unit out with research and
> preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with one of those
> big office scanners, which I then ran through Kurzweil 1000 OCR. IÂ’m now 
> at
> a third office that doesnÂ’t have one of those wonderful multifunction
> scanners readily at hand and am thinking my Canon flatbed isnÂ’t up to the
> task when IÂ’m handed a file an inch thick.
>
>
>
> I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
> ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I committed 
> myself
> though, I figured IÂ’d ask if there was something in the OCR solutions 
> market
> that was better/faster: is there something purpose-built to handle this 
> sort
> of thing?
>
>
>
> Any advice, including telling me IÂ’m going about this all wrong (perhaps
> especially that), would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aser
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com
> 


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 13:25:22 2009
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:25:22 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
In-Reply-To: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <330F7707970647FC9687A04774628A51@Rufus>

Don't use Kurzweil.  ABBYY Finereader or OmniPro are both commercial , less
expensive and a lot better.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aser Tolentino
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:01 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR

Hi All,

This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive 
technology question. I'm a 3L in Northern California, and have 
been interning with area DA's offices. I started out in one 
office working misdemeanor files; that office paired me with an 
intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a different office 
where I helped the felony unit out with research and 
preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with 
one of those big office scanners, which I then ran through 
Kurzweil 1000 OCR. I'm now at a third office that doesn't have 
one of those wonderful multifunction scanners readily at hand 
and am thinking my Canon flatbed isn't up to the task when I'm 
handed a file an inch thick.



I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I 
committed myself though, I figured I'd ask if there was 
something in the OCR solutions market that was better/faster: 
is there something purpose-built to handle this sort of thing?



Any advice, including telling me I'm going about this all wrong 
(perhaps especially that), would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks,

Aser
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 4447 (20090922) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4447 (20090922) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 22 13:26:54 2009
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:26:54 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
References: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D87BD2AF3E742548BE9D6DA086C2A97@D3DTZP41>

Hello Aser:

     If a scanner has twain drivers, it is likely compatible with either 
K1000 or OpenBook. Also ask the technical support people who support these 
products, they may have dealt with this issue before. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aser Tolentino" <agtolentino at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 3:01 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR


Hi All,

This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive technology
question. IÂ’m a 3L in Northern California, and have been interning with area
DAÂ’s offices. I started out in one office working misdemeanor files; that
office paired me with an intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a
different office where I helped the felony unit out with research and
preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with one of those
big office scanners, which I then ran through Kurzweil 1000 OCR. IÂ’m now at
a third office that doesnÂ’t have one of those wonderful multifunction
scanners readily at hand and am thinking my Canon flatbed isnÂ’t up to the
task when IÂ’m handed a file an inch thick.



I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I committed myself
though, I figured IÂ’d ask if there was something in the OCR solutions market
that was better/faster: is there something purpose-built to handle this sort
of thing?



Any advice, including telling me IÂ’m going about this all wrong (perhaps
especially that), would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks,

Aser
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net 



From agtolentino at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 02:33:15 2009
From: agtolentino at gmail.com (Aser Tolentino)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:33:15 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
In-Reply-To: <5D87BD2AF3E742548BE9D6DA086C2A97@D3DTZP41>
References: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<5D87BD2AF3E742548BE9D6DA086C2A97@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <c9f7bbbb0909221933g6520776bm9c956c796b4fb884@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the advice. I now have a better idea what I'm facing. I guess
half measures won't do.

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 6:26 AM, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>wrote:

> Hello Aser:
>
>    If a scanner has twain drivers, it is likely compatible with either
> K1000 or OpenBook. Also ask the technical support people who support these
> products, they may have dealt with this issue before. Hope this helps.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" <agtolentino at gmail.com
> >
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 3:01 AM
> Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive technology
> question. I’m a 3L in Northern California, and have been interning with
> area
> DA’s offices. I started out in one office working misdemeanor files; that
> office paired me with an intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a
> different office where I helped the felony unit out with research and
> preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with one of those
> big office scanners, which I then ran through Kurzweil 1000 OCR. I’m now at
> a third office that doesn’t have one of those wonderful multifunction
> scanners readily at hand and am thinking my Canon flatbed isn’t up to the
> task when I’m handed a file an inch thick.
>
>
>
> I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
> ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I committed myself
> though, I figured I’d ask if there was something in the OCR solutions
> market
> that was better/faster: is there something purpose-built to handle this
> sort
> of thing?
>
>
>
> Any advice, including telling me I’m going about this all wrong (perhaps
> especially that), would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aser
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com
>

From JFreeh at nfb.org  Thu Sep 24 04:41:53 2009
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:41:53 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Washington Post article on silent cars
Message-ID: <auto-000118525535@mailfront1.g2host.com>

The following article on the danger posed by silent cars appeared 
today on the front page of the Washington Post.


Washington Post
The Deadly Silence of the Electric Car

Automakers Propose Vroom-Vroom Substitutes to Alert Pedestrians
Byline: Peter Whoriskey
Publication Date: 09/23/2009
<http://c.moreover.com/click/here.pl?z2220551574&z=950243970>Link to Article



After years of trying to make cars sound as if they were riding on 
air, engineers are considering how they might bring back some noise. 
They're trying to make some of them -- those silent hybrids -- more audible.

But how?

A team of engineers developing the Leaf, the forthcoming electric car 
from Nissan and a front-runner in the race for a mass-market electric 
car, have recently been presenting their ideas for artificial noises 
to government officials and focus groups.

Maybe Chime Number 22?

Melody Number 39?

Perhaps a futuristic whirring like the aircraft in 'Blade Runner'? As 
hybrids proliferate and major automakers such as Nissan and General 
Motors prepare to launch battery electric vehicles next year, some 
automakers are seeking to address concerns in the United States and 
Japan that the nearly noiseless vehicles may be so quiet that they 
pose a threat to pedestrians.

At a meeting earlier this month and another over the summer, Nissan 
presented the chime, the melody and a futuristic whir to the National 
Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which has recently gathered 
evidence that the vehicles may pose a safety risk.

Regulatory committees in the United States and Japan are also 
studying complaints about the cars, and Congress is weighing a 
measure requiring vehicles to issue 'non-visual' warnings to 
pedestrians. 'We are studying potential artificial noises that can be 
added to the vehicle,' said Scott Becker, a Nissan senior vice president.

But the nascent industry is divided over whether safety sounds should 
be added to the quiet cars and, if so, what those noises should be. 
'Frankly, we've been working for 30 years to make cars quiet -- never 
thinking they could become too quiet,' said Robert Strassburger, vice 
president for vehicle safety at the Alliance of Automobile 
Manufacturers, an industry group that has been working to address the 
concerns. But now 'those vehicles may be difficult to detect.' Hybrid 
vehicles typically operate on hushed battery-powered electric motors 
when idling and traveling at low speeds. At higher speeds, the 
noisier internal-combustion engine kicks in. Toyota, which makes the 
popular hybrid Prius, a small car that runs very quietly at low 
speeds, does not add artificial sounds.

Cars like Tesla's Roadster, Nissan's Leaf and General Motors' Volt, 
which will depend on battery electric power, may be even quieter.

Officials at Tesla say they have no intention of implementing 'fake 
noises.' The company already makes the $109,000 electric Roadster, a 
luxury product popular with eco-conscious celebrity customers. 'We 
have delivered more than 700 cars, and our customers overwhelmingly 
say the relative quiet of the powertrain is one of the most appealing 
aspects of the car,' said Tesla spokeswoman Rachel Konrad. 'Thanks to 
widespread electric vehicle adoption, we will all enjoy far less 
noise pollution in the future.' Evidence that the hybrid sales spurt 
poses a safety threat has been scant, in part because the phenomenon 
is new and the hybrid cars represent only a small fraction of the 
more than 230 million vehicles on the road, transportation officials said.

But an as-yet-unreleased NHTSA study of accidents in 12 states 
compares accident rates for some hybrid vehicles and their internal 
combustion engine counterparts.

Covering more than 8,000 hybrid electric vehicles and nearly 600,000 
gasoline-fueled cars, the analysis suggests that during certain 
low-speed maneuvers such as turning and backing up, hybrid vehicles 
are 50 percent more likely to be involved in an accident with a 
pedestrian, said Ronald Medford, acting deputy administrator of 
NHTSA. 'We certainly know that blind pedestrians rely heavily on the 
sound of vehicles as a means of determining when it is safe to cross 
the road,' Medford said. 'But all of us are susceptible.' The 
potential problem arises at speeds less than 15 mph, when the 
electric and hybrid vehicles are notably quiet, almost silent. At 
higher speeds, the rush of air and the slap of tires makes the 
electrics almost as noisy as their gasoline-powered counterparts.

Rep. Edolphus Towns (D-N.Y.) has introduced a bill that would require 
the Department of Transportation to establish a safety standard under 
which cars would have to be equipped to issue 'non-visual alerts' so 
that pedestrians can determine the vehicle's location, motion and speed.

It has garnered 139 sponsors, among them Cliff Stearns (R-Fla.), who 
says he has been startled by a quiet car. 'I was down in Florida in 
the parking lot of a shopping center, and I was wheeling my groceries 
with my wife, and I didn't hear a car come up behind me,' Stearns 
told reporters. 'If all the cars are silent in the future, it does 
pose a problem.' But if electric cars are to be equipped with sound, 
there is little agreement over what the sound should be, how loud it 
ought to be and whether manufacturers should be allowed to create 
their own distinctive audio tracks.

Some automakers are already experimenting with or planning to develop noises.

The Fisker Karma, a luxury electric vehicle, will have an integrated 
audio system that will both alert pedestrians and give the car a 
'distinctive audio signature' that will be 'reflective of the car's 
advanced technology,' a spokesman said. Officials with the National 
Federation of the Blind, which has pressed the safety issue with 
automakers and regulators, have advocated that electric cars make 
sounds similar to those of gas-powered cars. 'Society is conditioned 
to that sound,' said John Pare, director of strategic initiatives for 
the group.

There is some concern that if a variety of noises are permitted, then 
electric cars could merely add another layer to the urban cacophony, 
potentially conflicting with state and local laws governing decibel 
levels. 'If we all do it differently, we will confuse the heck out of 
the consumer,'' said Nancy Gioia, director of hybrid and sustainable 
technology at Ford.

Nissan declined to release the audio tracks being considered but said 
it would make its final decision in consultation with regulators.

It is also seeking approval from drivers, some of whom have been 
fussy about the various sounds tested. 'They are too flat and 
irritating in hearing for more than even five minutes,' one 
respondent in a Nissan test said. 'Monotonous sound makes me sleepy,' 
said another.

Said Pare: 'We are certain that there is a safe level of sound that 
isn't burdensome to society.'


From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 24 15:02:27 2009
From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:02:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] firstlawjob.com?
Message-ID: <120103.38482.qm@web112403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I was on Craig's List yesterday looking for legal employment for lawyers in the northern Virginia/D.C. area.
I came across a posting from a web site called firstlawjob.com. I checked out the site and both it and the Craig's List posting say that you apply to the company and they contact firms and other entities on your behalf. (One of their recruiters interview you via telephone to see what fields you're interested in.)
Unfortunately, it costs $199 for a six-month period to have this agency work on your behalf. Right now, it's $89 to sign up.
 
Has anyone heard of this site? Has anyone used this web site to obtain employment? Has anyone obtained employment using this web site? Is it a scam and should I be leary because of the fee and it being on Craig's List? Of course, companies have to make money somehow. I just can't help but think that it could be a Craig's List scam.
 
Thanks.
 
Mike


      

From Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov  Thu Sep 24 15:06:50 2009
From: Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov (Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC))
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:06:50 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009
Message-ID: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE107F9EB77@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>

See the attached release regarding a national award I am receiving this
weekend on the 26th in Florida. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Gary

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From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Thu Sep 24 17:29:23 2009
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:29:23 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009
References: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE107F9EB77@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <F48B7105605547768728B6E937C5A9B3@labarre>

Congrats and enjoy the experience this weekend!
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC)" <Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov>
To: "Laura at work" <atco_optraining at msn.com>; "Smith, Laura R (CMS/OSORA)" 
<Laura.Smith2 at cms.hhs.gov>; <laura.smitherman at baltsun.com>; 
<jbeasley at gazette.net>; "Hunter, Deborah J. (CMS/CPC)" 
<Deborah.Hunter at cms.hhs.gov>; "Edouard De Tinguy" <EdeTinguy at gmfus.org>; 
"Emily Robichaux" <ERobichaux at gmfus.org>; <slovering at acb.org>; "ADR Section" 
<msbaadr at lists.msba.org>; <mandrews at mail.mchr.state.md.us>; "Mitch 
Pomerantz" <mitch.pomerantz at earthlink.net>; "Michael W Moran" 
<michael754 at verizon.net>; <Pringle at fr.com>; "Cathy Raggio" 
<CRaggio at mdod.state.md.us>; <louise.dempsey at law.csuohio.edu>; "Susan Garber" 
<info at matcoop.org>; "Bryson, Stacey L. (CMS/OEOCR)" 
<Stacey.Bryson at cms.hhs.gov>; <speilaw at inebraska.com>; 
<steven.steinglass at law.csuohio.edu>; "Goldberg, Alan" <agoldber at jhsph.edu>; 
"Barrett, Pshon (USAMSS)" <Pshon.Barrett at usdoj.gov>; <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>; 
<cag at carolineagriffin.com>; "Cathy Raggio" <CRaggio at mdod.state.md.us>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:06 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009


See the attached release regarding a national award I am receiving this
weekend on the 26th in Florida. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Gary




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From Cathryn.Bonnette at va.gov  Thu Sep 24 18:18:00 2009
From: Cathryn.Bonnette at va.gov (Bonnette, Cathryn (ORM))
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:18:00 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009
In-Reply-To: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE107F9EB77@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
References: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE107F9EB77@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <ADF1A8970DE96E49BE5360B69BE1242D047D66AA@VANCRMSGA4.vha.med.va.gov>

So that means you will be very hard to catch for conversation this
week(?)

Cathryn Bonnette
ADR Program Specialist
U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (08)
Office of Resolution Management (ORM)
1575 I Street, NW-10th Floor
Washington, DC 20005
Office 202-461-0513
Fax 202-501-2885
 
http://www.va.gov/orm/
http://www.va.gov/orm/ADR.asp
cathryn.bonnette at va.gov
 
"This e-mail and any attachments are intended only for the use of the
addressee (s) named herein and may contain privileged and/or
confidential information. 
If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, ou are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail,
and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please notify me by return e-mail and via
telephone at (202) 461-0513 and permanently delete the original and any
copy of any e-mail and any printout thereof."
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC)
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:07 AM
To: Laura at work; Smith, Laura R (CMS/OSORA);
laura.smitherman at baltsun.com; jbeasley at gazette.net; Hunter, Deborah J.
(CMS/CPC); Edouard De Tinguy; Emily Robichaux; slovering at acb.org; ADR
Section; mandrews at mail.mchr.state.md.us; Mitch Pomerantz; Michael W
Moran; Pringle at fr.com; Cathy Raggio; louise.dempsey at law.csuohio.edu;
Susan Garber; Bryson, Stacey L. (CMS/OEOCR); speilaw at inebraska.com;
steven.steinglass at law.csuohio.edu; Goldberg, Alan; Barrett, Pshon
(USAMSS); blindlaw at nfbnet.org; cag at carolineagriffin.com; Cathy Raggio
Subject: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009

See the attached release regarding a national award I am receiving this
weekend on the 26th in Florida. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Gary




From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Thu Sep 24 18:33:21 2009
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:33:21 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F832C6@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>



________________________________
From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:05 AM
To: jobs at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice



________________________________
From: Hunter, Sue [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:27 PM
To: Maurer, Patricia; nijc at aol.com; nlove at opd.state.md.us; nmcconnell at jackscamp.com; noconnell at tabinc.org; noryrp at cox.net; nromulus at gmail.com; ntb at boglechang.com; nwpatton at law.stanford.edu; ocaaba at cox.net; omanager at lawyerscomm.org; palsd at hotmail.com; patel at fr.com; pchanster at yahoo.com; pchapman at koonz.com; pgrewal at daycasebeer.com; pkim at lordbissell.com; Maurer, Patricia; pmorrison at state.wv.us; poppy.johnston at unlv.edu; president at abaw.org; president at adc.org
Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice


To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp

We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you.

Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies

 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 09-WDAR-02 Interested applicants should send a cover letter, detailed resume, and writing sample, postmarked no later than October 7, 2009:<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-usao-wdar-02.htm>
Date posted: 09-22-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 09-WDAR-01 Interested applicants should send a cover letter, detailed resume, and writing sample, postmarked no later than October 7, 2009:<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-usao-wdar-01.htm>
Date posted: 09-22-2009
 *   EXPERIENCED WHITE-COLLAR CRIMINAL ATTORNEYS (GS-0905-13/14/15) FRAUD SECTION CRIMINAL DIVISION U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WASHINGTON, DC 09-CRM-FRD-040 Applications will be accepted until October 5, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-crm-frd-40.htm>
Date posted: 09-22-2009
 *   FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS SOUTH CENTRAL REGIONAL OFFICE CONSOLIDATED LEGAL CENTER DALLAS, TEXAS SENIOR ATTORNEY-ADVISOR GS-905-14 This position is open until filled, but no later than September 26, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-bop-scro-conslegalctr.htm>
Date posted: 09-22-2009
 *   ASSISTANT DEPUTY CHIEF, LITIGATION UNIT NARCOTIC AND DANGEROUS DRUG SECTION CRIMINAL DIVISION DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WASHINGTON, D.C. 09-CRM-NDDS-039 This position is open for 14 days. This position closes at midnight on October 2, 2009, Eastern Standard time.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-crm-ndds-039.htm>
Date posted: 09-18-2009
 *   TRIAL ATTORNEY, POLICY UNIT NARCOTIC AND DANGEROUS DRUG SECTION CRIMINAL DIVISION DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WASHINGTON, D.C. 09-CRM-NDDS-038 This position is open for 14 days. This position closes at midnight on October 2, 2009, Eastern Standard time.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-crm-ndds-038.htm>
Date posted: 09-18-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: NDOH-09-02 Applications must be received no later than September 23, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/ndoh-09-02.htm>
Date posted: 09-17-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR U.S. TRUSTEES WASHINGTON, D.C. (1) EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY (GENERAL ADMINISTRATIVE AND BANKRUPTCY LAW)/GS-14/15 ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-37-1400 Applications must be postmarked by the closing date of October 2, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-37-14001.htm>
Date posted: 09-17-2009
 *   SPECIAL ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA HONORABLE JOYCE WHITE VANCE ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 09-NDAL-03 All applications/resumes must be postmarked by September 25, 2009<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-ndal-03.htm>
Date posted: 09-16-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT #09-EDTN-AUSA-09 Applications must be received by Tuesday, October 6, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-edtn-ausa-09.htm>
Date posted: 09-16-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF PRIVACY AND CIVIL LIBERTIES ATTORNEY-ADVISOR / GS-14-15 ANNOUNCEMENT: OPCL-ATY-09-001A This position is amended to include consideration at the GS-14 and GS-15 levels and to extend the closing date until September 25, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/attyadv14-15.htm>
Date posted: 09-15-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION ATTORNEY ADVISOR, GS-905-13/14/15 09-CRM-AFMLS-036 All applications must be received by October 9, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-crm-afmls-036.htm>
Date posted: 09-15-2009
 *   U .S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION TRIAL ATTORNEY, GS-13/14/15 09-CRM-AFMLS-037 All applications must be received by October 9, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-crm-afmls-037.htm>
Date posted: 09-15-2009
 *   ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 09-SDTX-06 (AUSA - TERM APPT) Applications must be received by September 22, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-sdtx-06.htm>
Date posted: 09-15-2009
 *   U.S.DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF CHIEF COUNSEL DOMESTIC CRIMINAL LAW SECTION EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY/GS-14 to GS-15 Applications must be received by October 12, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-dea-occ-domcrimelaw.htm>
Date posted: 09-15-2009
 *   EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY(GS-0905-13/14/15) PUBLIC INTEGRITY SECTION WASHINGTON, DC Applications must be postmarked by October 16, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/attorneypings131415-2.htm>
Date posted: 09-11-2009
 *   ATTORNEY-ADVISOR GS-905-14/15 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. OIG-2008-62 WASHINGTON, DC Closing date September 8, 2010.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/oig-2008-62.htm>
Date posted: 09-10-2009
 *   UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA TWO-YEAR TERM APPOINTMENT VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 09-MN-12 The position is opened until filled. The initial cut-off date for the receipt of applications is October 2, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/09-mn-12.htm>
Date posted: 09-10-2009
 *   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF CHIEF COUNSEL OPERATIONAL LAW DIVISION SUPERVISORY ATTORNEY/GS 15 Applications must be received by September 24, 2009.<http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/jobs/aco.htm>
Date posted: 09-10-2009

The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information.

-------------- next part --------------
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs:
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From Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov  Thu Sep 24 19:31:25 2009
From: Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov (Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC))
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:31:25 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] [blind law] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009
In-Reply-To: <ADF1A8970DE96E49BE5360B69BE1242D047D66AA@VANCRMSGA4.vha.med.va.gov>
References: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE107F9EB77@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
	<ADF1A8970DE96E49BE5360B69BE1242D047D66AA@VANCRMSGA4.vha.med.va.gov>
Message-ID: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE1080391CB@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>

Probably so, up through Thursday next week. Thanks.
G




-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Bonnette, Cathryn (ORM)
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 2:18 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009

So that means you will be very hard to catch for conversation this
week(?)

Cathryn Bonnette
ADR Program Specialist
U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (08)
Office of Resolution Management (ORM)
1575 I Street, NW-10th Floor
Washington, DC 20005
Office 202-461-0513
Fax 202-501-2885
 
http://www.va.gov/orm/
http://www.va.gov/orm/ADR.asp
cathryn.bonnette at va.gov
 
"This e-mail and any attachments are intended only for the use of the
addressee (s) named herein and may contain privileged and/or
confidential information. 
If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, ou are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail,
and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please notify me by return e-mail and via
telephone at (202) 461-0513 and permanently delete the original and any
copy of any e-mail and any printout thereof."
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC)
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:07 AM
To: Laura at work; Smith, Laura R (CMS/OSORA);
laura.smitherman at baltsun.com; jbeasley at gazette.net; Hunter, Deborah J.
(CMS/CPC); Edouard De Tinguy; Emily Robichaux; slovering at acb.org; ADR
Section; mandrews at mail.mchr.state.md.us; Mitch Pomerantz; Michael W
Moran; Pringle at fr.com; Cathy Raggio; louise.dempsey at law.csuohio.edu;
Susan Garber; Bryson, Stacey L. (CMS/OEOCR); speilaw at inebraska.com;
steven.steinglass at law.csuohio.edu; Goldberg, Alan; Barrett, Pshon
(USAMSS); blindlaw at nfbnet.org; cag at carolineagriffin.com; Cathy Raggio
Subject: [blindlaw] Ten Outstanding Young Americans 2009

See the attached release regarding a national award I am receiving this
weekend on the 26th in Florida. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Gary



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/gary.norman%40
cms.hhs.gov




From Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov  Thu Sep 24 19:48:25 2009
From: Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov (Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC))
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:48:25 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Question About SSA Representation
Message-ID: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE10803921B@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>

Greetings:

I have a good friend whose husband may be sufficiently impaired as to be
disabled, especially, as I would think would be the circumstance, under
the ADA Amendments Ac. Her husband may be filing for disability. I
cannot represent the husband as I am a federal employee. And ultimately
the friend believes outside counsel, (she is also an attorney) would be
appropriate. She is copied. As such, she is seeking legal counsel
regarding SSA - SSDI - legal issues. She and her husband reside here in
Baltimore. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Gary Norman


From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Thu Sep 24 21:11:05 2009
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:11:05 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Technology and Liberty Project Director,
 ALCU of Washington, job announcement
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F832CE@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>


Link:
http://www.aclu-wa.org/AboutUs/jobs/techlibdirector.cfm

Text:
Technology and Liberty Project Director

The ACLU of Washington is a non-profit, public interest organization devoted to protecting civil liberties and civil rights. Its staff of 27 employees and numerous volunteers work in a fast-paced, friendly and professional office.

The ACLU seeks a self-motivated public policy advocate to lead its work to protect civil liberties in the face of society's increasingly advanced technologies. Using strategies of education, advocacy, coalition building, and legal efforts, the Technology and Liberty Director advances a civil liberties perspective on such issues as RFID, data aggregation, surveillance technologies, and online free speech. The Technology and Liberty Director works closely and collaboratively with senior ACLU staff, and has significant interaction with the national ACLU Technology and Liberty Project. The position reports to the Executive Director through the Deputy Director.

Responsibilities

Regular responsibilities will include the following work:

Research and analyze technology-related proposals by government and industry, including those related to the domestic war on terrorism

In collaboration with senior staff, develop positions and strategies to respond to civil liberties and technology issues.

Conduct outreach and public education to stakeholders through speaking engagements, media work, and visits with ACLU supporters.

Provide expertise to policymakers, the press, and coalition partners.

Cultivate relationships and develop positioning materials for government officials leading technology related policy efforts.

Forge coalitions with local partners, including technology companies, grassroots groups, public interest groups, academics, and other technology experts.

Create educational materials for use with community stakeholders and ACLU constituents.

Build ACLU-WA's pool of subject matter experts and volunteers interested in technology and liberty issues.

Recruit and supervise interns and volunteers working on technology policy and issues.

Assist in other activities as assigned. Help maintain a positive, respectful, welcoming, and professional work environment for employees, interns and volunteers.

Qualifications:

A law degree or an advanced public policy degree.

Work or academic experience in a technology-related field, along with significant public policy experience.

Demonstrated skills as an articulate public advocate.

Excellent analysis, writing, and research skills. Prior experience simplifying and communicating technical issues to non-technical audiences.

Strong project management, organization and collaboration skills.

Strong commitment to and understanding of civil liberties and civil rights.

Ability to work cooperatively on a variety of projects with a broad range of individuals and community organizations.

Ability to work independently and under pressure, to attend occasional evening meetings and sometimes to work long or irregular hours.

A commitment to diversity; a personal approach that values the individual and respects differences of race, ethnicity, age, gender, sexual orientation, religion, ability, and socio-economic circumstance.

Compensation:

Salary will be based on experience and the parameters of the ACLU's compensation policies. Excellent benefits package includes three weeks paid vacation to start, medical and dental insurance, pension plan, long-term disability insurance and ten paid holidays.

To apply:

Applicants should email a cover letter and resume to the Screening Committee at Jobs at aclu-wa.org. Please put "TLP" in the subject line.

Applications may also be submitted by mail to:

Technology and Liberty Project Director Search Committee
ACLU of Washington
705 2nd Avenue, Suite 300
Seattle, WA 98104-1799

Please do not send materials by both email and postal mail. Applications will be accepted until the position is filled, at which time the job announcement will be removed from our website, www.aclu-wa.org/aboutus/jobs.

The ACLU is an affirmative action/equal opportunity employer and encourages individuals of every race, creed, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, and gender identity to apply.

The ACLU of Washington comprises two separate corporate entities, the American Civil Liberties Union of Washington and the American Civil Liberties Union of Washington Foundation. The two corporations share the same overall mission, office space, and employees. This job posting refers collectively to the two organizations under the name "ACLU of Washington."


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 22:33:00 2009
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:33:00 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
Message-ID: <6BA28B150790447A94EDDEDE7D0C7680@Rufus>

Hello all,

So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I would
have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the
nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December and
faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so why, after
all this trouble, am I still on the fence?

I'm currently the development director for a national organization.  On the
side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started a
little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great that I'm
going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base of customers
before the website is even finished gives me hope that something will come
of it.

I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill set.
I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge national
partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree would allow me
the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding another
good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a law degree to
excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely make me better, more
competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time program
and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I went to law
school just because it was the cool thing to do.  Sometimes my master's
degree seems like enough, and then there are times I wonder if I'm not
selling myself short because I did not jump for the extra hoop.

Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing attorneys as
to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the prospect
of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal representation is
out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally help people with cases of
discrimination and the like, especially with attorneys costing as much as
they do, but at the end of the day I have to be honest in my feelings that
if I went to law school it would be to better understand contracts and the
laws that govern business transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of
saying I'm interested in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not
become so boring since my early college days when I thought I wanted to
defend criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no
choices, but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.

Thanks in advance for any and all input.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4455 (20090924) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com  Thu Sep 24 23:21:45 2009
From: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com (ray wayne)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:21:45 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Question About SSA Representation
In-Reply-To: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE10803921B@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
References: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE10803921B@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <20090924232145.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com>

I expect that people closer to your home will reply, but in the meantime, here's what I know, or think I know. 

Social Security has its own definitions, both of disability and of blindness.  To my knowledge, neither was affected by the ADA amendments.  Also, if the guy is legally blind, that is a separate category and is usually easier to prove than most other disabilities are.  Also, there are aspects of benefits that apply to blind people and not to people with other disabilities, one being the amounts one can earn without losing benefits.  So if he has blindness and some other disability or disabilities, go with blindness.  

Finally, he doesn't have to have a lawyer, though it is a good idea to have someone who is experienced in advocating for Social Security applicants and recipients. 

Good luck! 

Ray Wayne, New York City



----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC)" <Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov>
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org, speilaw at inebraska.com, "Day Also-Mohamed" <dayalmohamed at gmail.com>, "Elaine Gardner" <Elaine_Gardner at washlaw.org>, mbrunson at acb.org
Date: Thursday, Sep 24, 2009 16:30:43
Subject: [bllaw] Question About SSA Representation

>
>
> Greetings:
> 
> I have a good friend whose husband may be sufficiently impaired as to be
> disabled, especially, as I would think would be the circumstance, under
> the ADA Amendments Ac. Her husband may be filing for disability. I
> cannot represent the husband as I am a federal employee. And ultimately
> the friend believes outside counsel, (she is also an attorney) would be
> appropriate. She is copied. As such, she is seeking legal counsel
> regarding SSA �� SSDI �� legal issues. She and her husband reside here in
> Baltimore. Thanks.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Gary Norman
> 
> _______________________________________________
> bllaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for bllaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com


From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 23:48:09 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:48:09 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Question About SSA Representation
In-Reply-To: <20090924232145.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com>
References: <BBA045412218F84A8C4ED7B65BED5EE10803921B@AVN3VS002.ees.hhs.gov>
	<20090924232145.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <01f601ca3d71$7aeb9a20$70c2ce60$@com>

I agree with Ray.  You do not need an attorney.  Since blindness is one of
the easier disabilities to prove, then I would suggest filing the initial
application on your own.  This will allow you to be able to keep all of your
back pay benefits, should there be any, rather than paying the 25% to an
attorney.  

Filing the initial application is the easiest step and does not require the
use of an attorney or representative.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ray wayne
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:22 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Question About SSA Representation

I expect that people closer to your home will reply, but in the meantime,
here's what I know, or think I know. 

Social Security has its own definitions, both of disability and of
blindness.  To my knowledge, neither was affected by the ADA amendments.
Also, if the guy is legally blind, that is a separate category and is
usually easier to prove than most other disabilities are.  Also, there are
aspects of benefits that apply to blind people and not to people with other
disabilities, one being the amounts one can earn without losing benefits.
So if he has blindness and some other disability or disabilities, go with
blindness.  

Finally, he doesn't have to have a lawyer, though it is a good idea to have
someone who is experienced in advocating for Social Security applicants and
recipients. 

Good luck! 

Ray Wayne, New York City



----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman, Gary C. (CMS/CBC)" <Gary.Norman at cms.hhs.gov>
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org, speilaw at inebraska.com, "Day Also-Mohamed"
<dayalmohamed at gmail.com>, "Elaine Gardner" <Elaine_Gardner at washlaw.org>,
mbrunson at acb.org
Date: Thursday, Sep 24, 2009 16:30:43
Subject: [bllaw] Question About SSA Representation

>
>
> Greetings:
> 
> I have a good friend whose husband may be sufficiently impaired as to 
> be disabled, especially, as I would think would be the circumstance, 
> under the ADA Amendments Ac. Her husband may be filing for disability. 
> I cannot represent the husband as I am a federal employee. And 
> ultimately the friend believes outside counsel, (she is also an 
> attorney) would be appropriate. She is copied. As such, she is seeking 
> legal counsel regarding SSA  SSDI  legal issues. She and her husband 
> reside here in Baltimore. Thanks.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Gary Norman
> 
> _______________________________________________
> bllaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
bllaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40ny
> c.rr.com




From angie.matney at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 00:21:42 2009
From: angie.matney at gmail.com (Angie Matney)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:21:42 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
In-Reply-To: <6BA28B150790447A94EDDEDE7D0C7680@Rufus>
References: <6BA28B150790447A94EDDEDE7D0C7680@Rufus>
Message-ID: <4abc0d10.48c3f10a.6575.1b8f@mx.google.com>

Hi Joe,

Hey,  corporate law? Boring? I resemble that remark! *smile*

Given the job prospects for lawyers these days, and given that you are happy
doing what you are doing, I'd consider taking the exam but not applying this
year. Your score is good for five years, after all.

Either way, congrats on dealing with LSAC!

Angie



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:33 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Hello all,

So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I would
have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the
nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December and
faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so why, after
all this trouble, am I still on the fence?

I'm currently the development director for a national organization.  On the
side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started a
little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great that I'm
going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base of customers
before the website is even finished gives me hope that something will come
of it.

I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill set.
I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge national
partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree would allow me
the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding another
good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a law degree to
excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely make me better, more
competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time program
and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I went to law
school just because it was the cool thing to do.  Sometimes my master's
degree seems like enough, and then there are times I wonder if I'm not
selling myself short because I did not jump for the extra hoop.

Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing attorneys as
to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the prospect
of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal representation is
out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally help people with cases of
discrimination and the like, especially with attorneys costing as much as
they do, but at the end of the day I have to be honest in my feelings that
if I went to law school it would be to better understand contracts and the
laws that govern business transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of
saying I'm interested in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not
become so boring since my early college days when I thought I wanted to
defend criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no
choices, but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.

Thanks in advance for any and all input.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4455 (20090924) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
il.com



From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 01:06:07 2009
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:06:07 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
In-Reply-To: <4abc0d10.48c3f10a.6575.1b8f@mx.google.com>
References: <6BA28B150790447A94EDDEDE7D0C7680@Rufus>
	<4abc0d10.48c3f10a.6575.1b8f@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <8c58e54a0909241806v69276c43qfe1a0f8d2af801c2@mail.gmail.com>

Ditto on Angie's comments from me, Joe.  In my humble opinion law school
goes an inch deep and a mile long.  Law school will teach you to be a jack
of many legal specialties but a master of none.  Law school alone will
almost certainly not make you more expert at your grant-writing specialty
without coupling that knowledge with hands on experience.  Based on my
experience (which is not much) it's my opinion that in the aggregate over
time there's a 51% chance (i.e. just barely more likely than not) that a law
degree will not pay off monetarily because you already have a strong skill
set that pays you well.
Mike


On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 5:21 PM, Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> Hey,  corporate law? Boring? I resemble that remark! *smile*
>
> Given the job prospects for lawyers these days, and given that you are
> happy
> doing what you are doing, I'd consider taking the exam but not applying
> this
> year. Your score is good for five years, after all.
>
> Either way, congrats on dealing with LSAC!
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:33 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
>
> Hello all,
>
> So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I would
> have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the
> nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December and
> faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so why, after
> all this trouble, am I still on the fence?
>
> I'm currently the development director for a national organization.  On the
> side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started a
> little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great that I'm
> going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base of customers
> before the website is even finished gives me hope that something will come
> of it.
>
> I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill set.
> I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge national
> partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree would allow me
> the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding another
> good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a law degree to
> excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely make me better, more
> competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time
> program
> and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I went to law
> school just because it was the cool thing to do.  Sometimes my master's
> degree seems like enough, and then there are times I wonder if I'm not
> selling myself short because I did not jump for the extra hoop.
>
> Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing attorneys as
> to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the prospect
> of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal representation
> is
> out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally help people with cases
> of
> discrimination and the like, especially with attorneys costing as much as
> they do, but at the end of the day I have to be honest in my feelings that
> if I went to law school it would be to better understand contracts and the
> laws that govern business transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of
> saying I'm interested in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not
> become so boring since my early college days when I thought I wanted to
> defend criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no
> choices, but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all input.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 4455 (20090924) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com
>

From rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 25 02:56:59 2009
From: rjtlawfirm at yahoo.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:56:59 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
In-Reply-To: <8c58e54a0909241806v69276c43qfe1a0f8d2af801c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6BA28B150790447A94EDDEDE7D0C7680@Rufus><4abc0d10.48c3f10a.6575.1b8f@mx.google.com>
	<8c58e54a0909241806v69276c43qfe1a0f8d2af801c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6F9F8E9AA6B7421AB1E3E5E3B1AE6469@russ>


If you have gone this far, take the test and see what you get. If the score
is high, you will know that law is in your blood. On the other hand, if your
score is in the middle, or lower, this might be a subtle suggestion to keep
doing what you are doing.  Law school will demand a considerable amount of
your time. Thus, unless you really want it, don't do it. 


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Fry
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:06 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Ditto on Angie's comments from me, Joe.  In my humble opinion law school
goes an inch deep and a mile long.  Law school will teach you to be a jack
of many legal specialties but a master of none.  Law school alone will
almost certainly not make you more expert at your grant-writing specialty
without coupling that knowledge with hands on experience.  Based on my
experience (which is not much) it's my opinion that in the aggregate over
time there's a 51% chance (i.e. just barely more likely than not) that a law
degree will not pay off monetarily because you already have a strong skill
set that pays you well.
Mike


On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 5:21 PM, Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> Hey,  corporate law? Boring? I resemble that remark! *smile*
>
> Given the job prospects for lawyers these days, and given that you are
> happy
> doing what you are doing, I'd consider taking the exam but not applying
> this
> year. Your score is good for five years, after all.
>
> Either way, congrats on dealing with LSAC!
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:33 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
>
> Hello all,
>
> So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I
would
> have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the
> nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December and
> faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so why,
after
> all this trouble, am I still on the fence?
>
> I'm currently the development director for a national organization.  On
the
> side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started a
> little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great that I'm
> going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base of customers
> before the website is even finished gives me hope that something will come
> of it.
>
> I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill
set.
> I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge national
> partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree would allow
me
> the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding another
> good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a law degree to
> excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely make me better,
more
> competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time
> program
> and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I went to law
> school just because it was the cool thing to do.  Sometimes my master's
> degree seems like enough, and then there are times I wonder if I'm not
> selling myself short because I did not jump for the extra hoop.
>
> Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing attorneys
as
> to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the prospect
> of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal representation
> is
> out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally help people with cases
> of
> discrimination and the like, especially with attorneys costing as much as
> they do, but at the end of the day I have to be honest in my feelings that
> if I went to law school it would be to better understand contracts and the
> laws that govern business transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of
> saying I'm interested in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not
> become so boring since my early college days when I thought I wanted to
> defend criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no
> choices, but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all input.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 4455 (20090924) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
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>
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From joramsey at cox.net  Fri Sep 25 06:00:11 2009
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 02:00:11 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
In-Reply-To: <6F9F8E9AA6B7421AB1E3E5E3B1AE6469@russ>
Message-ID: <0579086169484535A4F7CC8B0905F707@noneeb869fea9a>

Year after year, thread after worn out thread on the topic of the LSAT, I am
amazed that people still seem to honestly believe that there is anything
more than a coincidental correlation between the LSAT and the odds that a
person will successfully complete law school.
I cannot tell you how many successful attorneys that I know who did not do
well on the LSAT and are very effective attorneys. There is no legitimate
correlation between the LSAT and successfully completing law school. You can
just as easily have prospective applicants pan for gold and say that those
who find gold will be successful law school candidates.
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.

Gainesville, FL 32609

(352) 505-6642

 

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:57 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice



If you have gone this far, take the test and see what you get. If the score
is high, you will know that law is in your blood. On the other hand, if your
score is in the middle, or lower, this might be a subtle suggestion to keep
doing what you are doing.  Law school will demand a considerable amount of
your time. Thus, unless you really want it, don't do it. 


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Fry
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:06 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Ditto on Angie's comments from me, Joe.  In my humble opinion law school
goes an inch deep and a mile long.  Law school will teach you to be a jack
of many legal specialties but a master of none.  Law school alone will
almost certainly not make you more expert at your grant-writing specialty
without coupling that knowledge with hands on experience.  Based on my
experience (which is not much) it's my opinion that in the aggregate over
time there's a 51% chance (i.e. just barely more likely than not) that a law
degree will not pay off monetarily because you already have a strong skill
set that pays you well. Mike


On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 5:21 PM, Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> Hey,  corporate law? Boring? I resemble that remark! *smile*
>
> Given the job prospects for lawyers these days, and given that you are 
> happy doing what you are doing, I'd consider taking the exam but not 
> applying this
> year. Your score is good for five years, after all.
>
> Either way, congrats on dealing with LSAC!
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:33 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
>
> Hello all,
>
> So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I
would
> have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the 
> nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December 
> and faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so 
> why,
after
> all this trouble, am I still on the fence?
>
> I'm currently the development director for a national organization.  
> On
the
> side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started 
> a little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great 
> that I'm going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base 
> of customers before the website is even finished gives me hope that 
> something will come of it.
>
> I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill
set.
> I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge 
> national partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree 
> would allow
me
> the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding 
> another good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a 
> law degree to excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely 
> make me better,
more
> competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time 
> program and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I 
> went to law school just because it was the cool thing to do.  
> Sometimes my master's degree seems like enough, and then there are 
> times I wonder if I'm not selling myself short because I did not jump 
> for the extra hoop.
>
> Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing 
> attorneys
as
> to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the 
> prospect of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal 
> representation is out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally 
> help people with cases of
> discrimination and the like, especially with attorneys costing as much as
> they do, but at the end of the day I have to be honest in my feelings that
> if I went to law school it would be to better understand contracts and the
> laws that govern business transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of
> saying I'm interested in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not
> become so boring since my early college days when I thought I wanted to
> defend criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no
> choices, but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all input.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the 
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 4455 (20090924) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.
com
>
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blindlaw:
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.com



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From cdborne at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 06:31:12 2009
From: cdborne at gmail.com (Craig Borne)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 02:31:12 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
In-Reply-To: <0579086169484535A4F7CC8B0905F707@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <6F9F8E9AA6B7421AB1E3E5E3B1AE6469@russ>
	<0579086169484535A4F7CC8B0905F707@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <7F485738F67847CFA617030D2F568709@CraigPC>

John,
Do you do any copyright law in Florida?
Craig 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John Ramsey
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 2:00 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Year after year, thread after worn out thread on the topic of the LSAT, I am
amazed that people still seem to honestly believe that there is anything
more than a coincidental correlation between the LSAT and the odds that a
person will successfully complete law school.
I cannot tell you how many successful attorneys that I know who did not do
well on the LSAT and are very effective attorneys. There is no legitimate
correlation between the LSAT and successfully completing law school. You can
just as easily have prospective applicants pan for gold and say that those
who find gold will be successful law school candidates.
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.

Gainesville, FL 32609

(352) 505-6642

 

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:57 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice



If you have gone this far, take the test and see what you get. If the score
is high, you will know that law is in your blood. On the other hand, if your
score is in the middle, or lower, this might be a subtle suggestion to keep
doing what you are doing.  Law school will demand a considerable amount of
your time. Thus, unless you really want it, don't do it. 


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Fry
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:06 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Ditto on Angie's comments from me, Joe.  In my humble opinion law school
goes an inch deep and a mile long.  Law school will teach you to be a jack
of many legal specialties but a master of none.  Law school alone will
almost certainly not make you more expert at your grant-writing specialty
without coupling that knowledge with hands on experience.  Based on my
experience (which is not much) it's my opinion that in the aggregate over
time there's a 51% chance (i.e. just barely more likely than not) that a law
degree will not pay off monetarily because you already have a strong skill
set that pays you well. Mike


On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 5:21 PM, Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> Hey,  corporate law? Boring? I resemble that remark! *smile*
>
> Given the job prospects for lawyers these days, and given that you are 
> happy doing what you are doing, I'd consider taking the exam but not 
> applying this year. Your score is good for five years, after all.
>
> Either way, congrats on dealing with LSAC!
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:33 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
>
> Hello all,
>
> So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I
would
> have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the 
> nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December 
> and faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so 
> why,
after
> all this trouble, am I still on the fence?
>
> I'm currently the development director for a national organization.  
> On
the
> side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started 
> a little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great 
> that I'm going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base 
> of customers before the website is even finished gives me hope that 
> something will come of it.
>
> I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill
set.
> I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge 
> national partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree 
> would allow
me
> the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding 
> another good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a 
> law degree to excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely 
> make me better,
more
> competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time 
> program and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I 
> went to law school just because it was the cool thing to do.
> Sometimes my master's degree seems like enough, and then there are 
> times I wonder if I'm not selling myself short because I did not jump 
> for the extra hoop.
>
> Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing 
> attorneys
as
> to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the 
> prospect of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal 
> representation is out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally 
> help people with cases of discrimination and the like, especially with 
> attorneys costing as much as they do, but at the end of the day I have 
> to be honest in my feelings that if I went to law school it would be 
> to better understand contracts and the laws that govern business 
> transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of saying I'm interested 
> in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not become so boring 
> since my early college days when I thought I wanted to defend 
> criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no choices, 
> but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all input.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the 
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 4455 (20090924) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.
com
>
_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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.com



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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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m



From joramsey at cox.net  Fri Sep 25 07:44:35 2009
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 03:44:35 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
In-Reply-To: <7F485738F67847CFA617030D2F568709@CraigPC>
Message-ID: <6F419E7E73FA4AB4854C16A518862248@noneeb869fea9a>

Craig, Actually I do not do any copyright law at all but I do have a contact
who does do copyright law here in Florida. Contact me and I will see if I
can help you.
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.

Gainesville, FL 32609

(352) 505-6642

 

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Craig Borne
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 2:31 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice


John,
Do you do any copyright law in Florida?
Craig 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John Ramsey
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 2:00 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Year after year, thread after worn out thread on the topic of the LSAT, I am
amazed that people still seem to honestly believe that there is anything
more than a coincidental correlation between the LSAT and the odds that a
person will successfully complete law school. I cannot tell you how many
successful attorneys that I know who did not do well on the LSAT and are
very effective attorneys. There is no legitimate correlation between the
LSAT and successfully completing law school. You can just as easily have
prospective applicants pan for gold and say that those who find gold will be
successful law school candidates. John

John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.

Gainesville, FL 32609

(352) 505-6642

 

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:57 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice



If you have gone this far, take the test and see what you get. If the score
is high, you will know that law is in your blood. On the other hand, if your
score is in the middle, or lower, this might be a subtle suggestion to keep
doing what you are doing.  Law school will demand a considerable amount of
your time. Thus, unless you really want it, don't do it. 


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Fry
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:06 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Career Advice

Ditto on Angie's comments from me, Joe.  In my humble opinion law school
goes an inch deep and a mile long.  Law school will teach you to be a jack
of many legal specialties but a master of none.  Law school alone will
almost certainly not make you more expert at your grant-writing specialty
without coupling that knowledge with hands on experience.  Based on my
experience (which is not much) it's my opinion that in the aggregate over
time there's a 51% chance (i.e. just barely more likely than not) that a law
degree will not pay off monetarily because you already have a strong skill
set that pays you well. Mike


On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 5:21 PM, Angie Matney <angie.matney at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> Hey,  corporate law? Boring? I resemble that remark! *smile*
>
> Given the job prospects for lawyers these days, and given that you are
> happy doing what you are doing, I'd consider taking the exam but not 
> applying this year. Your score is good for five years, after all.
>
> Either way, congrats on dealing with LSAC!
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:33 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Career Advice
>
> Hello all,
>
> So I got accepted for accommodations on the LSAT.  If I still drank I
would
> have treated myself to a good stiff drink or three for overcoming the
> nonsense that is LSAC.  Now, I'm finally taking the exam in December 
> and faced with the very real prospect of applying for law school, so 
> why,
after
> all this trouble, am I still on the fence?
>
> I'm currently the development director for a national organization.
> On
the
> side I've gotten so good at managing grant projects that I've started
> a little company doing freelance writing.  It's not going so great 
> that I'm going to quit my day job, but considering I have a good base 
> of customers before the website is even finished gives me hope that 
> something will come of it.
>
> I think I'd like a law degree because I would like to enhance my skill
set.
> I routinely work on state and federal grant proposals and forge
> national partnerships between large nonprofits.  I think a law degree 
> would allow
me
> the opportunity to negotiate contracts between businesses, adding
> another good facet to my little business operation, but do I need a 
> law degree to excel in this arena?  I want a law degree to genuinely 
> make me better,
more
> competitive, but I do not want to dedicate four years to a part-time
> program and discover many thousands of dollars in tuition later that I 
> went to law school just because it was the cool thing to do.
> Sometimes my master's degree seems like enough, and then there are 
> times I wonder if I'm not selling myself short because I did not jump 
> for the extra hoop.
>
> Anyway, I would appreciate any concrete advice from practicing
> attorneys
as
> to their own satisfaction with their legal education.  I like the
> prospect of being able to represent vulnerable populations if legal 
> representation is out of reach.  I'd like to be able to occasionally 
> help people with cases of discrimination and the like, especially with 
> attorneys costing as much as they do, but at the end of the day I have 
> to be honest in my feelings that if I went to law school it would be 
> to better understand contracts and the laws that govern business 
> transactions.  I suppose this is a timid way of saying I'm interested 
> in corporate law, but gees, I should hope I have not become so boring 
> since my early college days when I thought I wanted to defend 
> criminals.  I'm taking the exam, because without it I have no choices, 
> but ultimately I want to make sure I'm making a good decision.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all input.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 4455 (20090924) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.
com
>
_______________________________________________
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From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Fri Sep 25 15:45:01 2009
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:45:01 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law
 attorney - Ref#24614188
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F832DB@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>

Volunteer opportunities 

-----Original Message-----
From: sender at lists.bigtent.com [mailto:sender at lists.bigtent.com] On Behalf Of Anonymous
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:00 PM
To: MAMAS Mother Attorneys Mentoring Assoc. of Seattle General Discussion
Subject: [mamas_general] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law attorney - Ref#24614188

Anonymous posted:

A colleague whose son has severe diabetes has passed this along to me.  If you're interested, I'll put you in touch with him.

"The American Diabetes Association is looking for attorney volunteers to help parents if they have issues at school with their diabetic child.  They offer training in D.C. and also offer scholarships to pay for the trip/hotel.  It is very good ADA training and you also get on a mailing list for a large variety of ADA related case law and issues. Very educational and good for networking.  Referrals for Washington State for actual school issues tend to be very low and it usually is just a meeting with the School superintendent to "educate" them on the Federal and State law."

________________________________________
View and comment online: http://www.bigtent.com/group/forum/message/24614188?md=MTE3OTgzMDM=
HINT: When replying by email, please do not include the original message.


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From jweisberg at screncilaw.com  Fri Sep 25 17:26:13 2009
From: jweisberg at screncilaw.com (James Weisberg)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:26:13 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law
	attorney - Ref#24614188
In-Reply-To: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F832DB@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>
References: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F832DB@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>
Message-ID: <FC50B49ED94B8A45A9AA3CE6D096CAED1F3CB7@2K3FS1.screnci.local>

Can contact info for this be forwarded to me?  Thanks.

James W. Weisberg, Esq. 
Law Office of Stephen W. Screnci, P.A.
2200 N.W. Boca Raton Blvd., Ste. 210
Boca Raton, Florida  33431
V:  (561) 300-3390
F:  (561) 300-3391
Email:  JWeisberg at screncilaw.com

Admitted in Wisconsin
Nationwide Practice Limited to Immigration Matters‡ 

‡Representing clients from all states throughout the world. We may be retained to represent you, a family member, a friend, an employer, or an employee regardless of your location because the practice of immigration law is federally regulated and not state specific. Sperry v. Florida, 373 U.S. 379 (1963).

This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in this message. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message from your system.

This exchange of information does not create an attorney-client relationship nor does it constitute legal advice.  The Law Office of Stephen W. Screnci, P.A. expects the recipient will independently evaluate this information in accordance with this disclaimer.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 11:45 AM
To: 'blindlaw at nfbnet.org'
Subject: [blindlaw] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law attorney - Ref#24614188

Volunteer opportunities 

-----Original Message-----
From: sender at lists.bigtent.com [mailto:sender at lists.bigtent.com] On Behalf Of Anonymous
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:00 PM
To: MAMAS Mother Attorneys Mentoring Assoc. of Seattle General Discussion
Subject: [mamas_general] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law attorney - Ref#24614188

Anonymous posted:

A colleague whose son has severe diabetes has passed this along to me.  If you're interested, I'll put you in touch with him.

"The American Diabetes Association is looking for attorney volunteers to help parents if they have issues at school with their diabetic child.  They offer training in D.C. and also offer scholarships to pay for the trip/hotel.  It is very good ADA training and you also get on a mailing list for a large variety of ADA related case law and issues. Very educational and good for networking.  Referrals for Washington State for actual school issues tend to be very low and it usually is just a meeting with the School superintendent to "educate" them on the Federal and State law."

________________________________________
View and comment online: http://www.bigtent.com/group/forum/message/24614188?md=MTE3OTgzMDM=
HINT: When replying by email, please do not include the original message.


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From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Fri Sep 25 19:42:56 2009
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:42:56 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school
	law	attorney - Ref#24614188
In-Reply-To: <FC50B49ED94B8A45A9AA3CE6D096CAED1F3CB7@2K3FS1.screnci.local>
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED4D93F832ED@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>

I would just call the ADA 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 10:26 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law attorney - Ref#24614188

Can contact info for this be forwarded to me?  Thanks.

James W. Weisberg, Esq. 
Law Office of Stephen W. Screnci, P.A.
2200 N.W. Boca Raton Blvd., Ste. 210
Boca Raton, Florida  33431
V:  (561) 300-3390
F:  (561) 300-3391
Email:  JWeisberg at screncilaw.com

Admitted in Wisconsin
Nationwide Practice Limited to Immigration Matters‡ 

‡Representing clients from all states throughout the world. We may be retained to represent you, a family member, a friend, an employer, or an employee regardless of your location because the practice of immigration law is federally regulated and not state specific. Sperry v. Florida, 373 U.S. 379 (1963).

This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in this message. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message from your system.

This exchange of information does not create an attorney-client relationship nor does it constitute legal advice.  The Law Office of Stephen W. Screnci, P.A. expects the recipient will independently evaluate this information in accordance with this disclaimer.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 11:45 AM
To: 'blindlaw at nfbnet.org'
Subject: [blindlaw] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law attorney - Ref#24614188

Volunteer opportunities 

-----Original Message-----
From: sender at lists.bigtent.com [mailto:sender at lists.bigtent.com] On Behalf Of Anonymous
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:00 PM
To: MAMAS Mother Attorneys Mentoring Assoc. of Seattle General Discussion
Subject: [mamas_general] Volunteer opportunity for disability / school law attorney - Ref#24614188

Anonymous posted:

A colleague whose son has severe diabetes has passed this along to me.  If you're interested, I'll put you in touch with him.

"The American Diabetes Association is looking for attorney volunteers to help parents if they have issues at school with their diabetic child.  They offer training in D.C. and also offer scholarships to pay for the trip/hotel.  It is very good ADA training and you also get on a mailing list for a large variety of ADA related case law and issues. Very educational and good for networking.  Referrals for Washington State for actual school issues tend to be very low and it usually is just a meeting with the School superintendent to "educate" them on the Federal and State law."

________________________________________
View and comment online: http://www.bigtent.com/group/forum/message/24614188?md=MTE3OTgzMDM=
HINT: When replying by email, please do not include the original message.


________________________________________
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From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 15:05:42 2009
From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 08:05:42 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
In-Reply-To: <SNT128-DS1812D3AEB0BA81BF2748ADBBDC0@phx.gbl>
References: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<SNT128-DS1812D3AEB0BA81BF2748ADBBDC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20090926150542.GD22828@yumi.bluecherry.net>

The ScanSnap S1500 has a mere 20 sheet per minute rate.  I'll agree 
that it sounds like it might not be enough.  Another advantage of the 
fi-6140 is that it's got proper SANE drivers.

I don't know if ScanSnap Manager works with a screen reader (if 
someone here can tell me that it does, great!)

I use a ScanSnap on the Mac and love it.  If you don't need the 60 
sheets per minute scanning, it might be just the tool you need.  Just 
remember you're not going to get 60-120 images per minute through OCR 
on pretty much any desktop out there.

Joseph

-- 
How many children in America are not taught how to read?
If they are blind, the answer is 90%--more than 52,000 children!
Find out how you can help: http://www.braille.org/


On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 04:27:25AM -0400, Rod Alcidonis wrote:
>
>Aser, the scanner you are thinking about in my view, is too slow for 
>the type of work you need it for. I would suggest that you go with a 
>much higher-end scanner, like the Fujitsu 6140, and up. Angie has had 
>great success with the ABBYY finereader, I haven't used it but based 
>on her experience, if you can I would add that to the package. Good 
>luck.
>
>Rod Alcidonis, J.D.
>
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>From: "Aser Tolentino" <agtolentino at gmail.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:01 AM
>To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive technology
>>question. I’m a 3L in Northern California, and have been interning 
>>with area
>>DA’s offices. I started out in one office working misdemeanor files; that
>>office paired me with an intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a
>>different office where I helped the felony unit out with research and
>>preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with one of those
>>big office scanners, which I then ran through Kurzweil 1000 OCR. 
>>I’m now at
>>a third office that doesn’t have one of those wonderful multifunction
>>scanners readily at hand and am thinking my Canon flatbed isn’t up to the
>>task when I’m handed a file an inch thick.
>>
>>
>>
>>I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
>>ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I 
>>committed myself
>>though, I figured I’d ask if there was something in the OCR 
>>solutions market
>>that was better/faster: is there something purpose-built to handle 
>>this sort
>>of thing?
>>
>>
>>
>>Any advice, including telling me I’m going about this all wrong (perhaps
>>especially that), would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Aser
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindlaw mailing list
>>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>for blindlaw:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com
>>
>
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>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
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From daydreamingncolor at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 23:24:51 2009
From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com (Aziza C)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
Message-ID: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,
I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
at his current age?

Thank you.
Aziza Cano
California Association of Blind Students Secretary
Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
Chapter President
Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative


From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 00:48:58 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 00:48:58 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>


Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name of the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
 
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> Hi everyone,
> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> at his current age?
> 
> Thank you.
> Aziza Cano
> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> Chapter President
> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
 		 	   		  
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From daydreamingncolor at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 00:52:16 2009
From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com (Aziza C)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 17:52:16 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>

Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
label yet?

On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name of
> the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
>
>> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
>> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
>> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
>> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
>> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
>> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
>> at his current age?
>>
>> Thank you.
>> Aziza Cano
>> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
>> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
>> Chapter President
>> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>  		 	   		
> _________________________________________________________________
> Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web.  Try  Bing™ now
> http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
> bing_1x1
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> blindlaw mailing list
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>


From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 01:20:51 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 01:20:51 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W20AC15B938B93442857FE5CFD70@phx.gbl>


he can list his home address as the address of the corporation until he has another location
 
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 17:52:16 -0700
> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
> label yet?
> 
> On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name of
> > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
> >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> >>
> >> Hi everyone,
> >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> >> at his current age?
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >> Aziza Cano
> >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> >> Chapter President
> >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> blindlaw mailing list
> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> blindlaw:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
> > http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
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> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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> > blindlaw:
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> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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_________________________________________________________________
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http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MLOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1

From daydreamingncolor at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 01:25:51 2009
From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com (Aziza C)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 18:25:51 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W20AC15B938B93442857FE5CFD70@phx.gbl>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>
	<632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W20AC15B938B93442857FE5CFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <632092010909261825nebf74cxb26a90cc06caa921@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the information. If you think of anything else that might
be useful, don't hesitate to email me. I appreciate the help.

On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> he can list his home address as the address of the corporation until he has
> another location
>
>> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 17:52:16 -0700
>> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>>
>> Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
>> label yet?
>>
>> On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name
>> > of
>> > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
>> >
>> >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
>> >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
>> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>> >>
>> >> Hi everyone,
>> >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
>> >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
>> >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
>> >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
>> >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
>> >> at his current age?
>> >>
>> >> Thank you.
>> >> Aziza Cano
>> >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
>> >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
>> >> Chapter President
>> >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> blindlaw mailing list
>> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> blindlaw:
>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
>> > http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
>> > bing_1x1
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > blindlaw mailing list
>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > blindlaw:
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>  		 	   		
> _________________________________________________________________
> Bing™  brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place.   Try it
> now.
> http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MLOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
>


From roddj12 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 02:58:38 2009
From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 22:58:38 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT128-DS193FDFD1ECCD5FD7135328BBD70@phx.gbl>


Minors aren't permitted to enter into valid contracts. A contract entered 
into with a minor is only enforceable against the other party, not against 
the minor.
Rod Alcidonis, J.D.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 7:24 PM
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors

> Hi everyone,
> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> at his current age?
>
> Thank you.
> Aziza Cano
> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> Chapter President
> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/roddj12%40hotmail.com
> 


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Sep 27 03:04:39 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:04:39 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>
	<632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <88CF2AADE5E147408ECA588F92C9D411@spike>

What would pose more of a problem is that a minor unless they are 
emancipated does not have the capacity to enter in to any legal contracts 
that are binding in most states.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors


Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
label yet?

On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name of
> the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
>
>> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
>> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
>> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
>> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
>> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
>> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
>> at his current age?
>>
>> Thank you.
>> Aziza Cano
>> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
>> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
>> Chapter President
>> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web.  Try  Bing™ now
> http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
> bing_1x1
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 




From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 03:39:03 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 03:39:03 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <88CF2AADE5E147408ECA588F92C9D411@spike>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>
	<632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>


ah but if he incorporates then it is the corporation entering into the contract, not him, and a minor can enter intoa contract as an a- hehgent of a company. otherwise when you didnt return your movies to blockbuster on time you could say oh we dont have a valid contract. I would say ncorporate and list another person as swell as him as owner and management of the company, and then once he turns 18 they can just hand oer total owenership to him. He could even say they only owned like 5% of the company if he was worried about themt rying to take control of the cmpany.
 
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:04:39 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> What would pose more of a problem is that a minor unless they are 
> emancipated does not have the capacity to enter in to any legal contracts 
> that are binding in most states.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> 
> Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
> label yet?
> 
> On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name of
> > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
> >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> >>
> >> Hi everyone,
> >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> >> at his current age?
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >> Aziza Cano
> >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> >> Chapter President
> >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> blindlaw mailing list
> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> blindlaw:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
> > http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
> > bing_1x1
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > blindlaw:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290

From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 03:44:22 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 22:44:22 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl>	<632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <014101ca3f24$cfa32ab0$6ee98010$@com>

I agree with Tim.  I've seen it done that way before.

Also, I'm not sure how far reaching this is but I was under the impression
that a contract that was entered into by a minor became enforceable when
they acted upon it.  Example, when minors sign up for the BMG music catalog.
If they never make an initial payment, it is not enforceable.  If they make
one payment, it is enforceable.  I knew this to be the law in Texas a few
years back but am not sure if it has changed or if I was mistaken.

Can someone who knows Texas law clarify that for me?

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tim Shaw
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 10:39 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors


ah but if he incorporates then it is the corporation entering into the
contract, not him, and a minor can enter intoa contract as an a- hehgent of
a company. otherwise when you didnt return your movies to blockbuster on
time you could say oh we dont have a valid contract. I would say ncorporate
and list another person as swell as him as owner and management of the
company, and then once he turns 18 they can just hand oer total owenership
to him. He could even say they only owned like 5% of the company if he was
worried about themt rying to take control of the cmpany.
 
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:04:39 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> What would pose more of a problem is that a minor unless they are 
> emancipated does not have the capacity to enter in to any legal contracts 
> that are binding in most states.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> 
> Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
> label yet?
> 
> On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name
of
> > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
> >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> >>
> >> Hi everyone,
> >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> >> at his current age?
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >> Aziza Cano
> >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> >> Chapter President
> >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> blindlaw mailing list
> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> blindlaw:
> >>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot
mail.com
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try BingT now
> >
http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_t
ry
> > bing_1x1
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > blindlaw:
> >
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%
40gmail.com
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hot
mail.com
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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blindlaw:
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il.com



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Sep 27 03:53:34 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:53:34 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl><632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3AA43CE8D8A74743BB9315C77C5DF6C5@spike>

A minor does not have the capacity to be an agent of a corporation. This is 
why many companies will require that when a minor receives or requests a 
service such your example of renting movies a parent's name is on the 
account as they are actually liable for the incurred fees or fines.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors



ah but if he incorporates then it is the corporation entering into the 
contract, not him, and a minor can enter intoa contract as an a- hehgent of 
a company. otherwise when you didnt return your movies to blockbuster on 
time you could say oh we dont have a valid contract. I would say ncorporate 
and list another person as swell as him as owner and management of the 
company, and then once he turns 18 they can just hand oer total owenership 
to him. He could even say they only owned like 5% of the company if he was 
worried about themt rying to take control of the cmpany.

> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:04:39 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>
> What would pose more of a problem is that a minor unless they are
> emancipated does not have the capacity to enter in to any legal contracts
> that are binding in most states.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>
>
> Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
> label yet?
>
> On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name 
> > of
> > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
> >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> >>
> >> Hi everyone,
> >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> >> at his current age?
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >> Aziza Cano
> >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> >> Chapter President
> >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> blindlaw mailing list
> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> blindlaw:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
> > http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
> > bing_1x1
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > blindlaw:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
>
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_________________________________________________________________
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From roddj12 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 04:24:00 2009
From: roddj12 at hotmail.com (Rod Alcidonis)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 00:24:00 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <3AA43CE8D8A74743BB9315C77C5DF6C5@spike>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl><632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>
	<3AA43CE8D8A74743BB9315C77C5DF6C5@spike>
Message-ID: <SNT128-DS1996AA34C2572C6DC8F0B4BBD70@phx.gbl>


Chuck:

Be careful. You are mixing different bodies of law here. Under an agency 
theory, a minor may not be able to serve as an agent of a corporation. Tim, 
on the other hand, is refering to the laws of incorpiration, which goes to 
the formation of a corporate entity. Having now thought about it, I think 
Tim is right.

Rod Alcidonis, J.D.


--------------------------------------------------
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 11:53 PM
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors

> A minor does not have the capacity to be an agent of a corporation. This 
> is why many companies will require that when a minor receives or requests 
> a service such your example of renting movies a parent's name is on the 
> account as they are actually liable for the incurred fees or fines.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 8:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>
>
>
> ah but if he incorporates then it is the corporation entering into the 
> contract, not him, and a minor can enter intoa contract as an a- hehgent 
> of a company. otherwise when you didnt return your movies to blockbuster 
> on time you could say oh we dont have a valid contract. I would say 
> ncorporate and list another person as swell as him as owner and management 
> of the company, and then once he turns 18 they can just hand oer total 
> owenership to him. He could even say they only owned like 5% of the 
> company if he was worried about themt rying to take control of the cmpany.
>
>> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:04:39 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>>
>> What would pose more of a problem is that a minor unless they are
>> emancipated does not have the capacity to enter in to any legal contracts
>> that are binding in most states.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>>
>>
>> Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
>> label yet?
>>
>> On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name 
>> > of
>> > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
>> >
>> >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
>> >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
>> >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
>> >>
>> >> Hi everyone,
>> >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
>> >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
>> >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
>> >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
>> >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
>> >> at his current age?
>> >>
>> >> Thank you.
>> >> Aziza Cano
>> >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
>> >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
>> >> Chapter President
>> >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> blindlaw mailing list
>> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> blindlaw:
>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
>> > http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
>> > bing_1x1
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > blindlaw mailing list
>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > blindlaw:
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC thatÂ’s right for you.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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> blindlaw:
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From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 05:09:03 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 05:09:03 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
In-Reply-To: <3AA43CE8D8A74743BB9315C77C5DF6C5@spike>
References: <632092010909261624o315960cdr5b1d1eec227a0106@mail.gmail.com><BAY139-W22F2CE899C14FE132FADA8CFD70@phx.gbl><632092010909261752j73787d1y71cf0be4a4c29087@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY139-W18779EEB956C8E9287BE6ECFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W2671321C7216DE4EB8EB49CFD70@phx.gbl>


I wasnt referring to the minor I was referring them as the one setting up the account at the movie rental store on behalf of the company, renting the movies to the customer, etc. There in fact they ARE acting as the agent of the company in the transation and agreement.
 
> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:53:34 -0700
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> A minor does not have the capacity to be an agent of a corporation. This is 
> why many companies will require that when a minor receives or requests a 
> service such your example of renting movies a parent's name is on the 
> account as they are actually liable for the incurred fees or fines.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 8:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> 
> 
> 
> ah but if he incorporates then it is the corporation entering into the 
> contract, not him, and a minor can enter intoa contract as an a- hehgent of 
> a company. otherwise when you didnt return your movies to blockbuster on 
> time you could say oh we dont have a valid contract. I would say ncorporate 
> and list another person as swell as him as owner and management of the 
> company, and then once he turns 18 they can just hand oer total owenership 
> to him. He could even say they only owned like 5% of the company if he was 
> worried about themt rying to take control of the cmpany.
> 
> > From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:04:39 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> >
> > What would pose more of a problem is that a minor unless they are
> > emancipated does not have the capacity to enter in to any legal contracts
> > that are binding in most states.
> > Chuck
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Aziza C" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
> > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> >
> >
> > Would that pose a problem considering their is not a location for this
> > label yet?
> >
> > On 9/26/09, Tim Shaw <timandvickie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Id say incorporate and then get all the liscences and stuff in the name 
> > > of
> > > the company as the corporation is its own intentity;)
> > >
> > >> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0700
> > >> From: daydreamingncolor at gmail.com
> > >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > >> Subject: [blindlaw] Businesses owned by Minors
> > >>
> > >> Hi everyone,
> > >> I was wondering if there were any laws preventing minors from owning
> > >> companies/businesses. A friend of mine, aged seventeen, is hoping to
> > >> start his own record label; so I pulled up a business plan, and an
> > >> outline of what licences need to be filed for and all that fun stuff.
> > >> My question is can he be a holder of a business and or retail licence
> > >> at his current age?
> > >>
> > >> Thank you.
> > >> Aziza Cano
> > >> California Association of Blind Students Secretary
> > >> Young Energetic Students Supporting Independence, NFBC Channel Islands
> > >> Chapter President
> > >> Tack-Tiles Registered Sales Representative
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> blindlaw mailing list
> > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > >> blindlaw:
> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
> > > http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try
> > > bing_1x1
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > blindlaw mailing list
> > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > blindlaw:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daydreamingncolor%40gmail.com
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > blindlaw:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> > blindlaw:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009

From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 19:37:34 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:37:34 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
Message-ID: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>

Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm.  There was a pre-interview
questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
appointment.  I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
attorney.  On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, vision,
etc.

 

As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation.  The banter back
and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.

 

My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we have
to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA?  I was under the assumption
that we do to cover ourselves.  I was curious since the question was posed
on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.

 

Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
regarding disability.  I'm simply asking for future reference.


From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 27 20:49:31 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 20:49:31 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
In-Reply-To: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W22D274ED02A6657F9EF762CFD70@phx.gbl>


You have to bring it up. I am guessing, and its just a guess, that that questioning on the form is for some non selection related reason such as statistics, or they could contract with the government in some capacity at which point hiring disabled individuals cangive them a leg up.
 
> From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:37:34 -0500
> Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
> 
> Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm. There was a pre-interview
> questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
> appointment. I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
> attorney. On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, vision,
> etc.
> 
> 
> 
> As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
> discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
> interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation. The banter back
> and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.
> 
> 
> 
> My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we have
> to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA? I was under the assumption
> that we do to cover ourselves. I was curious since the question was posed
> on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
> not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.
> 
> 
> 
> Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
> regarding disability. I'm simply asking for future reference.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290

From dandrews at visi.com  Sun Sep 27 21:42:20 2009
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:42:20 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
In-Reply-To: <330F7707970647FC9687A04774628A51@Rufus>
References: <c9f7bbbb0909220101m5fc890exb4ce37c4d0a071ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<330F7707970647FC9687A04774628A51@Rufus>
Message-ID: <auto-000120651135@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Some people are mixing up apples and oranges, so to say.  There are 
two issues, the scanner, and the OCR software.  The scanner takes a 
picture of a document, and the software processes that picture 
turning it into words.  Given a fast computer with lots of memory, 
the thing that makes the most difference is the scanner.  You can get 
a slow one for $100, but a really fast industrial-strength one will 
be thousands of dollars.

Dave

At 08:25 AM 9/22/2009, you wrote:
>Don't use Kurzweil.  ABBYY Finereader or OmniPro are both commercial , less
>expensive and a lot better.
>
>Joe Orozco
>
>"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
>crowd."--Max Lucado
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aser Tolentino
>Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:01 AM
>To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>Subject: [blindlaw] High-Volume OCR
>
>Hi All,
>
>This is probably a bit off topic, but I had an assistive
>technology question. I'm a 3L in Northern California, and have
>been interning with area DA's offices. I started out in one
>office working misdemeanor files; that office paired me with an
>intern to act as a reader. I signed on with a different office
>where I helped the felony unit out with research and
>preliminary hearings; they let me scan case files to PDF with
>one of those big office scanners, which I then ran through
>Kurzweil 1000 OCR. I'm now at a third office that doesn't have
>one of those wonderful multifunction scanners readily at hand
>and am thinking my Canon flatbed isn't up to the task when I'm
>handed a file an inch thick.
>
>
>
>I was thinking of getting one of those high-speed scanners (e.g. Fujitsu
>ScanSnap) to create PDFs to feed to Kurzweil. But before I
>committed myself though, I figured I'd ask if there was
>something in the OCR solutions market that was better/faster:
>is there something purpose-built to handle this sort of thing?
>
>
>
>Any advice, including telling me I'm going about this all wrong
>(perhaps especially that), would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Aser
>_______________________________________________
>blindlaw mailing list
>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>info for blindlaw:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
>co%40gmail.com
>
>
>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of
>virus signature database 4447 (20090922) __________
>
>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
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>database 4447 (20090922) __________
>
>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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>
>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
>http://www.eset.com



From dandrews at visi.com  Sun Sep 27 21:51:18 2009
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:51:18 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W22D274ED02A6657F9EF762CFD70@phx.gbl>
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
	<BAY139-W22D274ED02A6657F9EF762CFD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <auto-000120651526@mailfront2.g2host.com>

You are assuming that the questions on the form are there for proper 
and legal reasons.  It isn't necessarily so!

Dave

At 03:49 PM 9/27/2009, you wrote:

>You have to bring it up. I am guessing, and its just a guess, that 
>that questioning on the form is for some non selection related 
>reason such as statistics, or they could contract with the 
>government in some capacity at which point hiring disabled 
>individuals cangive them a leg up.
>
> > From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com
> > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:37:34 -0500
> > Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
> >
> > Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm. There was a pre-interview
> > questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
> > appointment. I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
> > attorney. On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, vision,
> > etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
> > discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
> > interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation. The banter back
> > and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.
> >
> >
> >
> > My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or 
> do we have
> > to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA? I was under the assumption
> > that we do to cover ourselves. I was curious since the question was posed
> > on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
> > not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.
> >
> >
> >
> > Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
> > regarding disability. I'm simply asking for future reference.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > blindlaw mailing list
> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for blindlaw:
> > 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.
>http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
>_______________________________________________
>blindlaw mailing list
>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindlaw:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com
>
>
>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>signature database 4462 (20090927) __________
>
>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
>http://www.eset.com



From rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com  Mon Sep 28 01:42:36 2009
From: rwayne1 at nyc.rr.com (ray wayne)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:42:36 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
In-Reply-To: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
Message-ID: <20090928014236.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com>

In what universe are these people practicing law?  Those questions are illegal in this one, unless they are job-related, and they are not in this instance. 

Ray Wayne



----- Original Message -----
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'Ationfbnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Date: Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 16:28:42
Subject: [bllaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire

>
>
> Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm.  There was a pre-interview
> questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
> appointment.  I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
> attorney.  On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, vision,
> etc.
> 
>  
> 
> As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
> discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
> interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation.  The banter back
> and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.
> 
>  
> 
> My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we have
> to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA?  I was under the assumption
> that we do to cover ourselves.  I was curious since the question was posed
> on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
> not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.
> 
>  
> 
> Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
> regarding disability.  I'm simply asking for future reference.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> bllaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for bllaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.com


From keith-vick at msn.com  Mon Sep 28 03:42:52 2009
From: keith-vick at msn.com (Keith Vick)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:42:52 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
In-Reply-To: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
Message-ID: <BLU137-DS792DD488FA03B7111E63E84D60@phx.gbl>

I have even worse horror stories than yours.  If you are curious, please
feel free to contact me offline.  




-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 3:38 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire

Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm.  There was a pre-interview
questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
appointment.  I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
attorney.  On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, vision,
etc.

 

As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation.  The banter back
and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.

 

My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we have
to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA?  I was under the assumption
that we do to cover ourselves.  I was curious since the question was posed
on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.

 

Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
regarding disability.  I'm simply asking for future reference.

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/keith-vick%40msn.c
om



From keith-vick at msn.com  Mon Sep 28 04:14:52 2009
From: keith-vick at msn.com (Keith Vick)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 00:14:52 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
In-Reply-To: <20090928014236.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com>
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
	<20090928014236.rwayne1@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BLU137-DS75F887A2985551085A17184D60@phx.gbl>

Probably the universe in which agencies are not enforcing the laws - like
our present one.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ray wayne
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 9:43 PM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire

In what universe are these people practicing law?  Those questions are
illegal in this one, unless they are job-related, and they are not in this
instance. 

Ray Wayne



----- Original Message -----
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'Ationfbnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Date: Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 16:28:42
Subject: [bllaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire

>
>
> Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm.  There was a
pre-interview
> questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
> appointment.  I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
> attorney.  On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing,
vision,
> etc.
> 
>  
> 
> As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
> discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
> interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation.  The banter
back
> and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.
> 
>  
> 
> My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we
have
> to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA?  I was under the assumption
> that we do to cover ourselves.  I was curious since the question was posed
> on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
> not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.
> 
>  
> 
> Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
> regarding disability.  I'm simply asking for future reference.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> bllaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
bllaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rwayne1%40nyc.rr.c
om

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/keith-vick%40msn.c
om



From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Mon Sep 28 15:34:26 2009
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:34:26 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
Message-ID: <476D8F332AA84AD3B08D80272F89F8BB@labarre>

A preinterview questionaire as you have described is patently unlawful.  If, 
however, the information is being gathered on a confidential and voluntary 
basis, it may not be unlawful.  As we like to say, it all depends.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:37 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire


> Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm.  There was a 
> pre-interview
> questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
> appointment.  I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
> attorney.  On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, 
> vision,
> etc.
>
>
>
> As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
> discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
> interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation.  The banter 
> back
> and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.
>
>
>
> My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we 
> have
> to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA?  I was under the assumption
> that we do to cover ourselves.  I was curious since the question was posed
> on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
> not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.
>
>
>
> Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
> regarding disability.  I'm simply asking for future reference.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 15:48:31 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:48:31 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire
In-Reply-To: <476D8F332AA84AD3B08D80272F89F8BB@labarre>
References: <01b401ca3fa9$fa1d2f40$ee578dc0$@com>
	<476D8F332AA84AD3B08D80272F89F8BB@labarre>
Message-ID: <009301ca4053$25360180$6fa20480$@com>

If I had received this questionnaire and been able to actually read it
before the interview, I would have been confused as to what to do.  The
reason I say this is because it had a blurb at the end that said if any
information was falsified, it would affect the interview.  There was nothing
said about the disability questions being voluntary.

How should I handle this if I come across it in the future?  Do I leave that
blank even though I cannot hide the fact that I'm blind.  I know that sounds
silly to some, but I'm really unsure as to how to handle this specific
situation.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:34 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire

A preinterview questionaire as you have described is patently unlawful.  If,

however, the information is being gathered on a confidential and voluntary 
basis, it may not be unlawful.  As we like to say, it all depends.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged

information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com,

and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments

are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:37 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire


> Recently, I went on an interview with a law firm.  There was a 
> pre-interview
> questionnaire that was to be filled out when you go to your interview
> appointment.  I was not able to complete this before meeting with the
> attorney.  On the form, it asked if you have impairments to hearing, 
> vision,
> etc.
>
>
>
> As I was unable to fill in the form before my meeting, the attorney and I
> discussed my vision impairment and assistive technology during the
> interview.at my initializing of that piece of conversation.  The banter 
> back
> and forth regarding this issue seems to have gone well.
>
>
>
> My question is, are companies allowed to bring up a disability or do we 
> have
> to bring it up first to be covered by the ADA?  I was under the assumption
> that we do to cover ourselves.  I was curious since the question was posed
> on the pre-interview form and from what I can tell, these disabilities are
> not a detriment to the particular position they are attempting to fill.
>
>
>
> Please note, that this firm has not given me any particular negative vibe
> regarding disability.  I'm simply asking for future reference.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarre
law.com
> 



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
il.com



From ahuffman6 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 18:14:06 2009
From: ahuffman6 at gmail.com (F. Allen Huffman)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:14:06 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] law school information
Message-ID: <012401ca4067$81888f20$0201a8c0@ALLEN>

            Sarah, I know for a fact the LSAT is available in braile. I am trying to apply for the disability accomadations now so I can get it that way . It is a bit of an arduous process.  Their are alot of forms you have to fill out, They want documentation of special education services and accomadations you recieved inelementary and secondary school and in college. They also want test scores such as your SAT and ACT scores, and  documentation about your accomadations for those tests. Depending on when you took them you may need to pay  a fee to get that information. It takes time to get it all so you may want to start soon. You can go to www.lsac.org and  clikc on the linc for disability accomadations.  Or you can call 215-9681001 and press six to get instructions  on their phone system,  then pres 4 to talk to someone about disability accomadations. They won't consider your request for accomadations  until you actually register for the LSAT, but I'd suggest beginning to get the do        cumentation now, before you register. It can take time, and if you get it now you won't be in the position I was in of having registered for the test, paid the fee , but then  not being able to take it because you didn't apply for the accomadations in time. As far as prep mateerial, their is an electronic study guide made by a company called mometrix media. You can google the name and you should find them. The study  gide  costs about 50 dollars. They told me it works with  job access with speech (jaws) and they sent me a sample page that appears to read ok. Just thought it might be something to chekc in to. 

From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 20:40:03 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:40:03 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
Message-ID: <00dd01ca407b$df268880$9d739980$@com>

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording below.  The
questions about hearing and vision impairments were not voluntary questions
and the wording below is what needed to be signed.  Please let me know your
thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS APPLICATION. I
UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE
FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO
DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND
SALARY. BE TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 21:36:55 2009
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:36:55 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <00dd01ca407b$df268880$9d739980$@com>
Message-ID: <7F3D96E906A64EE6B7D7120889E6F21A@Rufus>

This does not directly answer your question, and for that I apologize.  Yet
I remember having to disclose my disability when applying for federal
positions.  The language below in your post sounds a lot like the type of
rhetoric I encountered when applying for said federal positions.  I did not
really felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing.  Is that legal?  I've
seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private sector, but I was a
little appalled when the government itself was putting me in a corner.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording 
below.  The questions about hearing and vision impairments were 
not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to 
be signed.  Please let me know your thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS 
APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF 
FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND 
AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. 
REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE 
TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From keith-vick at msn.com  Mon Sep 28 21:43:42 2009
From: keith-vick at msn.com (Keith Vick)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:43:42 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <00dd01ca407b$df268880$9d739980$@com>
References: <00dd01ca407b$df268880$9d739980$@com>
Message-ID: <BLU137-DS1127D4C525A40A05300B684D60@phx.gbl>

Hi William,

As a preliminary note, the clause is bizarre to me because it is a mixture
of a 'for cause' termination clause and at will employment notice.  If the
firm is retaining you on an 'at will basis' it seems that the " I UNDERSTAND
THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR
DISMISSAL" clause is unnecessary.  Depending on that law of your state, the
'for cause' could be read as abrogating the 'at will' employment doctrine
but I doubt it. 

Regarding the legality of the authorization for investigation and questions
regarding your disability, this EEOC site seems helpful:

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/jobapplicant.html

In pertinent part, the site states that "The ADA prohibits employers from
asking questions that are likely to reveal the existence of a disability
before making a job offer (i.e., the pre-offer period). This prohibition
covers written questionnaires and inquiries made during interviews, as well
as medical examinations. However, such questions and medical examinations
are permitted after extending a job offer but before the individual begins
work (i.e., the post-offer period)."

I would say that a questionnaire that explicitly requires you to provide
information about your disability constitutes "...questions that are likely
to reveal the existence of a disability before making a job offer." 

I do think that some states have a procedure in which employees with
disabilities are required to notify their employers in writing before the
employer's duty to provide reasonable accommodations arises.  But that
doesn't seem to be applicable here since this is a pre-hiring questionnaire
not a post hiring request for accommodations.  Also, it seems the ADA would
preempt any possible state law authorizing such questions - if the law firm
was actually relying on any such state law.  My guess is that there is no
such state law.

As for the actual ADA statute that the EEOC is referring to, I can only
suggest further research on your part.  

Warmest regards,

Keith Vick


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording below.  The
questions about hearing and vision impairments were not voluntary questions
and the wording below is what needed to be signed.  Please let me know your
thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS APPLICATION. I
UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE
FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO
DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND
SALARY. BE TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/keith-vick%40msn.c
om



From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 22:05:51 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:05:51 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <BLU137-DS1127D4C525A40A05300B684D60@phx.gbl>
References: <00dd01ca407b$df268880$9d739980$@com>
	<BLU137-DS1127D4C525A40A05300B684D60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00ea01ca4087$dcf8dca0$96ea95e0$@com>

Keith,

Thanks for that information.  I really appreciate it.  I had reviewed the
site that you referenced in your e-mail and found it very useful.

I'm thinking after doing all this reading I should get back into labor and
employment law.  This was an area that we never covered in the few years I
worked in the particular area of law.

Thanks again!

William

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Keith Vick
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:44 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Hi William,

As a preliminary note, the clause is bizarre to me because it is a mixture
of a 'for cause' termination clause and at will employment notice.  If the
firm is retaining you on an 'at will basis' it seems that the " I UNDERSTAND
THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR
DISMISSAL" clause is unnecessary.  Depending on that law of your state, the
'for cause' could be read as abrogating the 'at will' employment doctrine
but I doubt it. 

Regarding the legality of the authorization for investigation and questions
regarding your disability, this EEOC site seems helpful:

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/jobapplicant.html

In pertinent part, the site states that "The ADA prohibits employers from
asking questions that are likely to reveal the existence of a disability
before making a job offer (i.e., the pre-offer period). This prohibition
covers written questionnaires and inquiries made during interviews, as well
as medical examinations. However, such questions and medical examinations
are permitted after extending a job offer but before the individual begins
work (i.e., the post-offer period)."

I would say that a questionnaire that explicitly requires you to provide
information about your disability constitutes "...questions that are likely
to reveal the existence of a disability before making a job offer." 

I do think that some states have a procedure in which employees with
disabilities are required to notify their employers in writing before the
employer's duty to provide reasonable accommodations arises.  But that
doesn't seem to be applicable here since this is a pre-hiring questionnaire
not a post hiring request for accommodations.  Also, it seems the ADA would
preempt any possible state law authorizing such questions - if the law firm
was actually relying on any such state law.  My guess is that there is no
such state law.

As for the actual ADA statute that the EEOC is referring to, I can only
suggest further research on your part.  

Warmest regards,

Keith Vick


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording below.  The
questions about hearing and vision impairments were not voluntary questions
and the wording below is what needed to be signed.  Please let me know your
thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS APPLICATION. I
UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE
FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO
DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND
SALARY. BE TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 

_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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om


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From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 22:09:37 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:09:37 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <7F3D96E906A64EE6B7D7120889E6F21A@Rufus>
References: <00dd01ca407b$df268880$9d739980$@com>
	<7F3D96E906A64EE6B7D7120889E6F21A@Rufus>
Message-ID: <00eb01ca4088$60848d30$218da790$@com>

Joe,

I've experienced that with the government applications that I've reviewed as
well.  Where they "get" you at is that they say the positions are priority
placement, or whatever term they use.  For instance, the DOJ within the past
couple months has made a push to hire individuals with disabilities and you
must submit a Schedule A letter so they know to put you n the pile for that
priority placement.

So, it's a bit confusiong as to what to do.  If you truly want the job, you
disclose with the government...but in the private sector, it's not
necessarily good to be asked the questions.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:37 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

This does not directly answer your question, and for that I apologize.  Yet
I remember having to disclose my disability when applying for federal
positions.  The language below in your post sounds a lot like the type of
rhetoric I encountered when applying for said federal positions.  I did not
really felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing.  Is that legal?  I've
seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private sector, but I was a
little appalled when the government itself was putting me in a corner.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording 
below.  The questions about hearing and vision impairments were 
not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to 
be signed.  Please let me know your thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS 
APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF 
FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND 
AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. 
REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE 
TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 


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From jsorozco at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 04:20:16 2009
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:20:16 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <00eb01ca4088$60848d30$218da790$@com>
Message-ID: <37E0056E89B44AA0B3C3839138059825@Rufus>

Well I mean if I'm using Schedule A to apply, I think they have the right to
ask me what disability I'm claiming.  If, however, I'm applying in the
general pool, I don't think it's any of their business.  As I told Keith
off-list, I did get some interviews, and so I won't say my disclosure closed
off opportunities, but since it is not part of a line of questioning that is
optional I felt just a wee bit annoyed with Big Brother asking me to be
honest about whether or not I had an impairment.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:10 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Joe,

I've experienced that with the government applications that 
I've reviewed as well.  Where they "get" you at is that they 
say the positions are priority placement, or whatever term they 
use.  For instance, the DOJ within the past couple months has 
made a push to hire individuals with disabilities and you must 
submit a Schedule A letter so they know to put you n the pile 
for that priority placement.

So, it's a bit confusiong as to what to do.  If you truly want 
the job, you disclose with the government...but in the private 
sector, it's not necessarily good to be asked the questions.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:37 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

This does not directly answer your question, and for that I 
apologize.  Yet I remember having to disclose my disability 
when applying for federal positions.  The language below in 
your post sounds a lot like the type of rhetoric I encountered 
when applying for said federal positions.  I did not really 
felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing.  Is that legal? 
 I've seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private 
sector, but I was a little appalled when the government itself 
was putting me in a corner.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on 
the crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording 
below.  The questions about hearing and vision impairments were 
not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to 
be signed.  Please let me know your thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS 
APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF 
FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND 
AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. 
REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE 
TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature
database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 


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__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

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database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From mruniverse08 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 05:22:34 2009
From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:22:34 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <37E0056E89B44AA0B3C3839138059825@Rufus>
References: <00eb01ca4088$60848d30$218da790$@com>
	<37E0056E89B44AA0B3C3839138059825@Rufus>
Message-ID: <000901ca40c4$de3b5b00$9ab21100$@com>

I'm not quite sure how I really feel about the government asking.  It's a
bit strange for me because I'm having such a difficult time in the private
sector finding employment, that I'm almost readily willing to file the
Schedule A so I can get an upper hand (or so they say) in obtaining
employment.

I'm not sure how many blind paralegals there are in the list, but I don't
know of many and it seems like attorneys in my part of the world are really
loathe to hire a blind paralegal.  It seems like they have never seen one of
us before.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:20 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Well I mean if I'm using Schedule A to apply, I think they have the right to
ask me what disability I'm claiming.  If, however, I'm applying in the
general pool, I don't think it's any of their business.  As I told Keith
off-list, I did get some interviews, and so I won't say my disclosure closed
off opportunities, but since it is not part of a line of questioning that is
optional I felt just a wee bit annoyed with Big Brother asking me to be
honest about whether or not I had an impairment.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:10 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Joe,

I've experienced that with the government applications that 
I've reviewed as well.  Where they "get" you at is that they 
say the positions are priority placement, or whatever term they 
use.  For instance, the DOJ within the past couple months has 
made a push to hire individuals with disabilities and you must 
submit a Schedule A letter so they know to put you n the pile 
for that priority placement.

So, it's a bit confusiong as to what to do.  If you truly want 
the job, you disclose with the government...but in the private 
sector, it's not necessarily good to be asked the questions.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:37 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

This does not directly answer your question, and for that I 
apologize.  Yet I remember having to disclose my disability 
when applying for federal positions.  The language below in 
your post sounds a lot like the type of rhetoric I encountered 
when applying for said federal positions.  I did not really 
felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing.  Is that legal? 
 I've seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private 
sector, but I was a little appalled when the government itself 
was putting me in a corner.

Joe Orozco

"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on 
the crowd."--Max Lucado 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2

Folks,

 

I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording 
below.  The questions about hearing and vision impairments were 
not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to 
be signed.  Please let me know your thoughts about this language.

 

Statement reads:

 

I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS 
APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF 
FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND 
AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. 
REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE 
TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.

 

 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature
database 4465 (20090928) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 


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blindlaw mailing list
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__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

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From craig.borne at dot.gov  Tue Sep 29 12:16:29 2009
From: craig.borne at dot.gov (craig.borne at dot.gov)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:16:29 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Vacancy announcement: Paralegal for C10
Message-ID: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E75E2EB@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov>

 

Dear Colleagues:

 

Our office has a vacancy announcement for a Paralegal Specialist
(Ethics) GS-9/11 which closes on October 7th.  Please see the link below
for further details.

 

Thanks,

 

Brenda J. Gilliam

Office of the General Counsel (C-18)

Office of the Secretary

US Department of Transportation

1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE, W94-205

Washington, DC  20590

(202) 366-6984 (Voice)

(202) 366-9170 (Facsimile)

 

Note: This email and any attached electronic documents are intended for
the sole use of the individual and entity to whom it is addressed, and
may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from
disclosure under applicable law.  If you are not the intended recipient,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
duplication of this transmission by anyone or to anyone other than the
intended addressee, or their designated agent, is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the
sender by return email or on (202) 366-6984.

 

 

 

 

________________________________

From: Kaleta, Judy (OST) 
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 12:15 PM
To: Angermann, Bonnie (OST); Arsenlis, Maria (OST); Carlson, Terence
(OST); Gilliam, Brenda (OST); Hearns, Marilyn (OST); Huezo, Hector
(OST); Kaufman, Fern (OST); Langan-Feirson, MaryKay (OST); Moore,
Kimberly (OST); Register, Bill (OST); Rosen, Debra (OST)
Subject: Vacancy announcement: Paralegal for C10

Follow the link below to the vacancy announcement. The announcement
closes on October 7.  

 

http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=83544163&JobTitle=Paralegal
+Specialist+(Ethics)%2c+GS-0950-9+%2f+11&jbf574=TD*&FedEmp=N&FedPub=Y&vw
=d&re=0&caller=basic.aspx&pg=1&cnme=20590&rad=10&rad_units=miles&rfn=1&A
VSDM=2009-09-23+00%3a03%3a00

 

 

Judith S. Kaleta

Assistant General Counsel for General Law

U.S. Department of Transportation

W94-306

1200 New Jersey Avenue, S.E.

Washington, DC 20590

 


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep 29 13:41:34 2009
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 06:41:34 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <000901ca40c4$de3b5b00$9ab21100$@com>
References: <00eb01ca4088$60848d30$218da790$@com><37E0056E89B44AA0B3C3839138059825@Rufus>
	<000901ca40c4$de3b5b00$9ab21100$@com>
Message-ID: <21E6420546F745E6B6CC7575AD50EBEC@spike>

that's very true, many attorneys that I come in contact with are very 
surprised that i'm a blind paralegal and I constantly have to explain to 
them how I perform various tasks. As far as applying with the Schedule A for 
the government you got to do whatever it takes to get a job in today's job 
market and if means disclosing a disability you do it as an attempt to get 
hired. If there are ramifications as a result of disclosure that becomes 
another issue that can be dealt with through legal channels.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2


> I'm not quite sure how I really feel about the government asking.  It's a
> bit strange for me because I'm having such a difficult time in the private
> sector finding employment, that I'm almost readily willing to file the
> Schedule A so I can get an upper hand (or so they say) in obtaining
> employment.
>
> I'm not sure how many blind paralegals there are in the list, but I don't
> know of many and it seems like attorneys in my part of the world are 
> really
> loathe to hire a blind paralegal.  It seems like they have never seen one 
> of
> us before.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:20 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
>
> Well I mean if I'm using Schedule A to apply, I think they have the right 
> to
> ask me what disability I'm claiming.  If, however, I'm applying in the
> general pool, I don't think it's any of their business.  As I told Keith
> off-list, I did get some interviews, and so I won't say my disclosure 
> closed
> off opportunities, but since it is not part of a line of questioning that 
> is
> optional I felt just a wee bit annoyed with Big Brother asking me to be
> honest about whether or not I had an impairment.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:10 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
>
> Joe,
>
> I've experienced that with the government applications that
> I've reviewed as well.  Where they "get" you at is that they
> say the positions are priority placement, or whatever term they
> use.  For instance, the DOJ within the past couple months has
> made a push to hire individuals with disabilities and you must
> submit a Schedule A letter so they know to put you n the pile
> for that priority placement.
>
> So, it's a bit confusiong as to what to do.  If you truly want
> the job, you disclose with the government...but in the private
> sector, it's not necessarily good to be asked the questions.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:37 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
>
> This does not directly answer your question, and for that I
> apologize.  Yet I remember having to disclose my disability
> when applying for federal positions.  The language below in
> your post sounds a lot like the type of rhetoric I encountered
> when applying for said federal positions.  I did not really
> felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing.  Is that legal?
> I've seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private
> sector, but I was a little appalled when the government itself
> was putting me in a corner.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on
> the crowd."--Max Lucado
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording
> below.  The questions about hearing and vision impairments were
> not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to
> be signed.  Please let me know your thoughts about this language.
>
>
>
> Statement reads:
>
>
>
> I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS
> APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF
> FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND
> AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY.
> REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE
> TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
> co%40gmail.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of
> virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of
> virus signature
> database 4465 (20090928) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
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> erse08%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
> co%40gmail.com
>
>
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> virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
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>
>
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> signature
> database 4465 (20090928) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
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> blindlaw:
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From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 29 15:40:00 2009
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:40:00 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <37E0056E89B44AA0B3C3839138059825@Rufus>
References: <00eb01ca4088$60848d30$218da790$@com>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W9AE41AA7953BFAE0CE347CFD50@phx.gbl>


Well one benefit of discolsing to the govenment is they can call up their agency in charge of accomodations for civilian personnel and get a better understanding of your disability. A group taht form my experience is very supportive. So therefore they have alot clearer image instead of going on misconceptions they may have jsut because of ignorance.
 
> From: jsorozco at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:20:16 -0400
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> Well I mean if I'm using Schedule A to apply, I think they have the right to
> ask me what disability I'm claiming. If, however, I'm applying in the
> general pool, I don't think it's any of their business. As I told Keith
> off-list, I did get some interviews, and so I won't say my disclosure closed
> off opportunities, but since it is not part of a line of questioning that is
> optional I felt just a wee bit annoyed with Big Brother asking me to be
> honest about whether or not I had an impairment.
> 
> Joe Orozco
> 
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:10 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> Joe,
> 
> I've experienced that with the government applications that 
> I've reviewed as well. Where they "get" you at is that they 
> say the positions are priority placement, or whatever term they 
> use. For instance, the DOJ within the past couple months has 
> made a push to hire individuals with disabilities and you must 
> submit a Schedule A letter so they know to put you n the pile 
> for that priority placement.
> 
> So, it's a bit confusiong as to what to do. If you truly want 
> the job, you disclose with the government...but in the private 
> sector, it's not necessarily good to be asked the questions.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:37 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> This does not directly answer your question, and for that I 
> apologize. Yet I remember having to disclose my disability 
> when applying for federal positions. The language below in 
> your post sounds a lot like the type of rhetoric I encountered 
> when applying for said federal positions. I did not really 
> felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing. Is that legal? 
> I've seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private 
> sector, but I was a little appalled when the government itself 
> was putting me in a corner.
> 
> Joe Orozco
> 
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on 
> the crowd."--Max Lucado 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> Folks,
> 
> 
> 
> I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording 
> below. The questions about hearing and vision impairments were 
> not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to 
> be signed. Please let me know your thoughts about this language.
> 
> 
> 
> Statement reads:
> 
> 
> 
> I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS 
> APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF 
> FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND 
> AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. 
> REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE 
> TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
> info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
> co%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
> virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
> virus signature
> database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniv
> erse08%40gma
> il.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
> info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
> co%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
> virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%40hotmail.com
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
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From ms at browngold.com  Tue Sep 29 16:13:36 2009
From: ms at browngold.com (Mehgan Sidhu)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:13:36 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] BGL Disability Rights Fellowship
Message-ID: <F0078745BDA1D442B9BA19143FEA66CD47F7C6DD45@BALT-X1-EXCH01.BGL.root>

Dear All,

Brown, Goldstein & Levy is pleased to announce that we are accepting applications for our second annual disability rights fellowship, to start in September 2010.  I've pasted the announcement below and hope that many of you will apply and spread the word.  Please let me know if you have any questions.

Announcement:

In September 2009, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP welcomed its first disability rights fellow.  We are now accepting applications for next year's fellowship.  The Fellowship offers a recent law-school graduate or judicial clerk (0-3 years out) with a disability the opportunity to participate in all phases of disability rights litigation at our firm in Baltimore, Maryland.  Brown, Goldstein & Levy is a 16-lawyer, Baltimore-based law firm devoted principally to litigation.  The firm has developed a national reputation for its high-profile, high-impact disability rights cases.  The one-year fellowship will begin in September 2010. The application deadline is November 16, 2009.   Please visit our website for additional details about the fellowship and the firm and to download an application: www.browngold.com<http://www.browngold.com/>.


Mehgan Sidhu
Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP
120 East Baltimore Street, Suite 1700
Baltimore, Maryland 21202
410-962-1030 x1324
410-385-0869 (fax)
ms at browngold.com<mailto:ms at browngold.com>
www.browngold.com<http://www.browngold.com/>

Confidentiality Notice

This e-mail may contain confidential information that may also be legally privileged and that is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named above.  If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of the recipient, please be advised that any dissemination or copying of this e-mail, or taking of any action in reliance on the information contained herein, is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify me immediately by use of the reply button, and then delete the e-mail from your system.  Thank you!


From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Tue Sep 29 16:43:39 2009
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 10:43:39 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw:  BGL Disability Rights Fellowship
Message-ID: <6943B7189E1343F680E32C5B404F5BE8@labarre>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mehgan Sidhu" <ms at browngold.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 10:13 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] BGL Disability Rights Fellowship


> Dear All,
>
> Brown, Goldstein & Levy is pleased to announce that we are accepting 
> applications for our second annual disability rights fellowship, to start 
> in September 2010.  I've pasted the announcement below and hope that many 
> of you will apply and spread the word.  Please let me know if you have any 
> questions.
>
> Announcement:
>
> In September 2009, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP welcomed its first 
> disability rights fellow.  We are now accepting applications for next 
> year's fellowship.  The Fellowship offers a recent law-school graduate or 
> judicial clerk (0-3 years out) with a disability the opportunity to 
> participate in all phases of disability rights litigation at our firm in 
> Baltimore, Maryland.  Brown, Goldstein & Levy is a 16-lawyer, 
> Baltimore-based law firm devoted principally to litigation.  The firm has 
> developed a national reputation for its high-profile, high-impact 
> disability rights cases.  The one-year fellowship will begin in September 
> 2010. The application deadline is November 16, 2009.   Please visit our 
> website for additional details about the fellowship and the firm and to 
> download an application: www.browngold.com<http://www.browngold.com/>.
>
>
> Mehgan Sidhu
> Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP
> 120 East Baltimore Street, Suite 1700
> Baltimore, Maryland 21202
> 410-962-1030 x1324
> 410-385-0869 (fax)
> ms at browngold.com<mailto:ms at browngold.com>
> www.browngold.com<http://www.browngold.com/>
>
> Confidentiality Notice
>
> This e-mail may contain confidential information that may also be legally 
> privileged and that is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named 
> above.  If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of 
> the recipient, please be advised that any dissemination or copying of this 
> e-mail, or taking of any action in reliance on the information contained 
> herein, is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail in 
> error, please notify me immediately by use of the reply button, and then 
> delete the e-mail from your system.  Thank you!
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From craig.borne at dot.gov  Tue Sep 29 16:46:00 2009
From: craig.borne at dot.gov (craig.borne at dot.gov)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:46:00 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W9AE41AA7953BFAE0CE347CFD50@phx.gbl>
References: <00eb01ca4088$60848d30$218da790$@com>
	<BAY139-W9AE41AA7953BFAE0CE347CFD50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <61017FCC3706464B8ACB770A8038174E75E397@OSTMAIL03VS3.ad.dot.gov>

...and don't forget that most Federal agencies have to complete a report
under the EEOC's Management Directive (MD) 715, which analyzes
affirmative employment actions.  One category in the MD-715 is persons
with target or "severe" disabilities, which would include blindness.  

In order to help Federal agencies boost their numbers in this area, many
are very interested in hiring disabled folks.  Besides, Schedule A
hiring is non-competitive, which means the agency doesn't need to go
through all of the HR hiring mess.

Craig

Craig Borne
NHTSA/DOT
(202) 493-0627 
craig.borne at dot.gov
 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Tim Shaw
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:40 AM
To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2


Well one benefit of discolsing to the govenment is they can call up
their agency in charge of accomodations for civilian personnel and get a
better understanding of your disability. A group taht form my experience
is very supportive. So therefore they have alot clearer image instead of
going on misconceptions they may have jsut because of ignorance.
 
> From: jsorozco at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:20:16 -0400
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> Well I mean if I'm using Schedule A to apply, I think they have the
right to
> ask me what disability I'm claiming. If, however, I'm applying in the
> general pool, I don't think it's any of their business. As I told
Keith
> off-list, I did get some interviews, and so I won't say my disclosure
closed
> off opportunities, but since it is not part of a line of questioning
that is
> optional I felt just a wee bit annoyed with Big Brother asking me to
be
> honest about whether or not I had an impairment.
> 
> Joe Orozco
> 
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the
> crowd."--Max Lucado 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:10 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> Joe,
> 
> I've experienced that with the government applications that 
> I've reviewed as well. Where they "get" you at is that they 
> say the positions are priority placement, or whatever term they 
> use. For instance, the DOJ within the past couple months has 
> made a push to hire individuals with disabilities and you must 
> submit a Schedule A letter so they know to put you n the pile 
> for that priority placement.
> 
> So, it's a bit confusiong as to what to do. If you truly want 
> the job, you disclose with the government...but in the private 
> sector, it's not necessarily good to be asked the questions.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:37 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> This does not directly answer your question, and for that I 
> apologize. Yet I remember having to disclose my disability 
> when applying for federal positions. The language below in 
> your post sounds a lot like the type of rhetoric I encountered 
> when applying for said federal positions. I did not really 
> felt I had a choice when it came to disclosing. Is that legal? 
> I've seen similar questionnaires when applying in the private 
> sector, but I was a little appalled when the government itself 
> was putting me in a corner.
> 
> Joe Orozco
> 
> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on 
> the crowd."--Max Lucado 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of WB
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:40 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: [blindlaw] Pre-Interview Questionnaire Part 2
> 
> Folks,
> 
> 
> 
> I went back into the questionnaire and copied the wording 
> below. The questions about hearing and vision impairments were 
> not voluntary questions and the wording below is what needed to 
> be signed. Please let me know your thoughts about this language.
> 
> 
> 
> Statement reads:
> 
> 
> 
> I AUTHORIZE INVESTIGATION OF ALL STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS 
> APPLICATION. I UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTATION OR OMISSION OF 
> FACTS CALLED FOR IS CAUSE FOR DISMISSAL. FURTHER. I UNDERSTAND 
> AND AGREE THAT MY EMPLOYMENT IS FOR NO DEFINITE PERIOD AND MAY. 
> REGARDLESS OF THE DATE OF PAYMENT OF MY WAGES AND SALARY. BE 
> TERMINATED AT ANY TIME WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS NOTICE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
> info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
> co%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
> virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
> virus signature
> database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniv
> erse08%40gma
> il.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
> info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
> co%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
> virus signature database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature
> database 4465 (20090928) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/timandvickie%4
0hotmail.com
 		 	   		  
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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dot.gov


From Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov  Wed Sep 30 14:49:45 2009
From: Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov (Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS))
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 07:49:45 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject)
Message-ID: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60413E1D9@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov>

Test	Please ignore, I am just testing a distribution rule.


From bjsexton at comcast.net  Wed Sep 30 17:42:02 2009
From: bjsexton at comcast.net (Bruce Sexton Jr.)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:42:02 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject)
References: <839F18076C66C345BD1C0A4ACA67A1F60413E1D9@dhsexcmsg12.intra.dhs.ca.gov>
Message-ID: <59E75F8EAB48470BAB9D6E4843DA1648@SLIM>

Hello,

I am enrolled in a LSAT preparation class.  It's going well!  Do any of you 
have tricks you've used to diagram for logical reasoning and or logic games? 
I know Deepa has used a magnet board, but I am interested in how other 
people have diagrammed so that all the information is represented, and all 
connections and inferences can be made.  The teacher is using dashes, arrows 
and offshoots that divide two things, very much like a family tree!  Any 
tips or tricks are greatly appreciated!

Thank You,
Bruce Sexton Jr.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ford, Tim (CDPH-OLS)" <Tim.Ford at cdph.ca.gov>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:49 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject)


> Test Please ignore, I am just testing a distribution rule.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bjsexton%40comcast.net