[blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students

Mike Freeman k7uij at panix.com
Mon Sep 7 23:36:54 UTC 2009 

With great respect, I believe we're missing the point when we say 
students should have "identical access". It never was, isn't now and 
never shall be. Why? Because the only way we, the blind, will ever have 
"identical access" is for us to gain or regain sight. For most of us, 
this ain't gonna happen. I believe that all we can realistically expect 
is enough access to do the job. No one ever said blindness wasn't a 
nuisance.

but my thinking on this sort of thing is definitely old-fashioned 
although gentleman such as Steve Jacobson agree with me. And as for 
scanning, man, I'd much rather use a reader than spend time with OCR 
software!

We're all missing the point of Chuck's message, however. And that is 
that once out on the job, it is unlikely that one can get the level of 
accommodation one apparently has a right to these days in college. Is it 
doing a student a favor to get him/her used to a level of provision of 
services he/she will not experience in the world of employment? I think 
not. And this comes home to roost when the frustrated new employee, used 
to what he/she got from the DSS office, howls "discrimination" when, in 
fact, it isn't discrimination but just the real world in action.

But we're straying away from law here and marching headlong into 
philosophical debate. (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to
whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I 
thought
this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and
other laws covering education of students with disabilities.


Mike
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books 
> for
> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper 
> fee.
> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to 
> the
> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal 
> with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going 
> to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are 
> not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know 
> how I
> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my 
> own
> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic 
> copies
> from
> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an 
> etext
> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be 
> weeks
> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
> also
> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
> could
> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers. 
> But I
> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't 
> make
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
> with
> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
> doing
> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and 
> neither
> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't 
> support
> these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>>to
>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
>> fact
>> of
>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we 
>> all
>> know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a 
>> considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>> make
>> an
>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to 
>> the
>> way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically 
>> now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
>> had
>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view 
>> things
>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, 
>> should be
>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
>> unavailable.
>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>> disabled
>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to 
>> register
>> as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here 
>> but I
>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for 
>> use
>> of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>> of
>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
>> materials
>> in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>> that
>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>> learning
>> to
>> find and create available resources and development of increased 
>> problem
>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>> otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to 
>> adequately
>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>> services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>> of
>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>> faculty
>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>> employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>designed
>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks 
>>>>are
>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it 
>>>>will
>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently, 
>>>>help
>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>>courses
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College 
>>>>officials
>>>>have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>>of
>>>>its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a 
>>>>copy
>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller 
>>>>the
>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>format
>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not, 
>>>>the
>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan 
>>>>the
>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>>format
>>>>can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>often
>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>>amount
>>>>of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>>>>to
>>>>have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>>tests
>>>>and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>for
>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't 
>>>>come
>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that 
>>>>puts
>>>>that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>>and
>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>>accessibility
>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>>says
>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of 
>>>>the
>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>with
>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>>system,
>>>>the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>process
>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes 
>>>>just
>>>>scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students 
>>>>in a
>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>>colleges
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting 
>>>>the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher 
>>>>education at
>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school 
>>>>has
>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format, 
>>>>they
>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that 
>>>>school
>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those 
>>>>colleges
>>>>the
>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file 
>>>>themselves, he
>>>>says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>>to
>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>>phase,
>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>billing
>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>>lot
>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>>specialized
>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem 
>>>>for
>>>>us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>>and
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
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