[blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students

Angie Matney angie.matney at gmail.com
Tue Sep 8 10:46:50 UTC 2009


Hi John,

There's a difference between choosing between two accommodations and
refusing accommodation altogether. To borrow your analogy, rather than
choose between a Toyota and a Cadillac, I can, under the aDA, say, "No
thanks, I'd rather walk." This is my understanding of the law. My point was
that if I have a scanner, I do not have to go through DSS at all for texts
if I don't want to. I can just buy them and scan.

Angie

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John 
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 5:39 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

Perhaps I am confusing the difference between the educational setting and
the workplace, but it has always been my understanding of the ADA that the
accommodation is reasonable not whether or not the recipient wants the
accommodation. For instance, if the accommodation is a Toyota, the recipient
cannot simply refuse the Toyota because he prefers a Cadillac.


John A. Ramsey Jr., Esq.

Gainesville, FL 32609

(352) 505-6642

 

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Angie Matney
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 4:11 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students


Hi Chuck,

	Remember that under the ADA, no one can be required to accept an
accommodation nhe or she does not want. A college cannot require me to allow
them to provide me with books if I want to scan them.

I think that every blind high-school student ought to have access to a
scanner and OCR software like the equipment I used in law school. But even
so, scanning is not the same as reading a book, as you suggest below.
There's additional time in preparing the materials. This can be greatly
minimized with the right equipment and software, but it is not the same as
simply being able to start reading a book as soon as you buy it. I do agree
with you that we have no real reason to expect things to be "fair." All I'm
saying is that, in principle, universities should be providing this kind of
accommodation. The reality is that few have the facilities to do it, and any
blind student who depends solely on DSS for books is probably going to fall
behind. Additionally, if a blind student gains lots of practice with
scanning, she is more likely to use it recreationally. But I fear that this
is not exactly on-topic anymore.

Angie


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
Students

While it is nice to have the option of an E-text book and at the time I was 
in school they were just beginning to come in to the market you have the 
same option of reading a book as a sighted student. As you say its called 
scanning it or if you are lucky having it available already produced through

RFB&D or Bookshare. There is always the option of having it recorded. In 
many instances I located local readers to recording and it was all done in a

timely manner where I didn't fall behind in coursework. Yes, it might not 
have been an equal or fair process but in the real world of employment the 
odds aren't always equal or fair and some people have to work a bit harder 
to attain their goals. It is no different with sighted students in that some

have to study more to get their A in a particular class and we don't see the

judges giving blind attorneys accommodations or extra time in submitting 
briefs or motions because they are blind. I guess my concern is that in some

states and colleges disabled students are required to accept the services 
offered by the college and are discouraged from acting independently. Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hello Chhuck,
>
> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books 
> for them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the 
> proper fee. They don't have to convince publishers or authors that 
> they deserve a "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them 
> as a matter of course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be 
> able to go to the book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>
> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
> when
> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own 
> books
> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal with
> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going to
> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are not
> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>
> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know 
> how I would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan 
> my own books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get 
> electronic copies from the publishers, I did so. If the university 
> could have produced an etext copy of every book as soon as I bought it 
> (or nearly so), I would have gladly let them do it. I don't think that 
> would have made me less independent. The problem is, the system is 
> broken. I refused to be weeks behind in my reading because of the 
> inability of the school and the publishers to meet my needs for 
> etexts.
>
> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I 
> also like having some control over the process by which I obtain the 
> books. During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental 
> text, I could do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow 
> publishers. But I still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be 
> the way it is.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
> Students
>
> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't 
> make
> any
>
> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working 
> with the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges 
> shouldn't be doing this for students as it fosters dependence and 
> enables them. Sighted students don't have anyone obtaining their 
> materials for them and neither should blind students. Officially, I 
> would hope that NFB doesn't support these processes.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need 
>>to  lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the 
>>fact  of  the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many 
>>things are  electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or 
>>not.  As we all  know
>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a considerable
>> push
>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>
>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily 
>> make an individual less independent.  I think this service is 
>> catching up to the way
>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really 
>> almost
>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically now
>> because of my loss of sight.
>>
>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have 
>> had vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view 
>> things predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>
>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not, 
>> should be able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is 
>> unavailable. But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>
>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>
>> William
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>> ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that 
>> disabled students are losing their choices to be independent by 
>> having to register as
>>
>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for 
>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here 
>> but I learned many valuable skills by having to procure and 
>> arrangement for use of
>>
>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the 
>> supervision
>>
>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work 
>> of employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring 
>> materials in
>
>> a
>>
>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring 
>> that materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant 
>> learning to find and create available resources and development of 
>> increased problem solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled 
>> students blind or otherwise
>>
>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to 
>> adequately compete in the real world of employment when programs such 
>> disabled services
>>
>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use 
>> of such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs 
>> with faculty members as they would have to do when they are on their 
>> own in an employment
>>
>> setting.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>
>
<http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>
>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>this
>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for 
>>>>blind,
>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>
>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is 
>>>>designed to centralize the process by which electronic versions of 
>>>>textbooks are requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. 
>>>>Experts say it will allow disabled students to get their textbooks 
>>>>more efficiently, help colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and 
>>>>protect publishers' copyrights.
>>>>
>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional 
>>>>texts,
>>
>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their 
>>>>courses can
>>
>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and 
>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational 
>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College 
>>>>officials have
>>
>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each 
>>>>of its
>>
>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a 
>>>>copy exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the 
>>>>smaller the publisher -- college officials still have to convert the 
>>>>file to a format that can be read by whatever reading aid the 
>>>>student uses. If not, the college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to 
>>>>obtain permission to scan the book and create its own electronic 
>>>>version.
>>>>
>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable 
>>>>format can
>>
>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of 
>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts 
>>>>often arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by 
>>>>the character-recognition software the university uses to turn them 
>>>>into standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer 
>>>>amount of
>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give 
>>>>that
>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled 
>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need 
>>>>to have
>>
>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for 
>>>>tests and
>>
>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training 
>>>>for the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book 
>>>>doesn't come until the term has been in session for three or four 
>>>>weeks, that puts that
>>
>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such 
>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request 
>>>>and delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for 
>>>>accessibility affairs at AAP.
>>>>
>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently," 
>>>>says McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that 
>>>>out of the transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules 
>>>>up front."
>>>>
>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should 
>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork 
>>>>with each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the 
>>>>system, the
>>
>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>registration,
>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>
>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to 
>>>>process the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text 
>>>>sometimes just scan
>>
>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students 
>>>>in a timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>
>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different 
>>>>colleges
>>>>to
>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired. 
>>>>Currently
>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting the
>>>>same
>>
>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher 
>>>>education at the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if 
>>>>one school has already spent the time and the money to convert a 
>>>>file to a format, they could advise the AccessText network, which 
>>>>could then make the info available that it was still available in 
>>>>that format, and that school could share it with another school" -- 
>>>>thereby sparing those colleges the time and resources it would have 
>>>>used to convert the file themselves, he says.
>>>>
>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million 
>>>>to develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta 
>>>>phase, which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain 
>>>>itself by billing member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, 
>>>>depending on size.
>>>>
>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the 
>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a 
>>>>lot more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of 
>>>>those books
>>
>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through 
>>>>specialized publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of 
>>>>the problem for us."
>>>>
>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers 
>>>>and
>>>>is
>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
>> il.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
>> signature database 4397 (20090905) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
>> signature database 4397 (20090905) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
il.com


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gma
il.com





More information about the BlindLaw mailing list