From t.l.cantrell at comcast.net  Thu Apr  1 02:41:57 2010
From: t.l.cantrell at comcast.net (Tammy Cantrell)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:41:57 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question
Message-ID: <74D1A6A637564CACAC3B7E070F25B36C@owner1b4ab732f>

I have a legal question I need some input on from those that know more about this than I do.  I'll give you the situation 1st and then the question.
    Situation:
    A totally blind person lives in an apartment complex.  The US Postal Service delivers mail to each apartment.  For out going mail, there used to be a drop box within the complex.  It was close to the office area but was still available.
    Now the Postal Service has removed the drop box for the out going mail.  The only way this blind person has of sending mail is either stand around and wait for the mail carrier, entrust the out going mail to somebody else to drop off or (here's the best one)  make an appointment with Access which is their Paratransit service, pay $3.50 one way spend 3 plus hours and deliver the letter, then pay $3.50 again to return home.  
    The removal of the out going drop box was not at the request of the Apartment Complex.  The Postal Service stated that the drop box was not cost effective, therefore, it had to be removed.
    Question:
    What legal steps can be taken to resolve this situation.
    There has already been useless conversations with the local Post Office.  I would be very interested in hearing your suggestions.
    Thanks so much for your assistance! 


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Apr  1 05:49:29 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 22:49:29 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question
In-Reply-To: <74D1A6A637564CACAC3B7E070F25B36C@owner1b4ab732f>
References: <74D1A6A637564CACAC3B7E070F25B36C@owner1b4ab732f>
Message-ID: <F2D2D830E33943A0B8404D74771CB46F@spike>

This has been a trend that has been happening with the Post Office for the 
past several years. AS the blind person is not specifically being 
discriminated against and all residents are doing without the drop box I 
doubt that this would come under the ADA. There have been times that I have 
contacted the Post Office to let them know when I had outgoing mail to be 
picked up such as Braille books to be returned to the library and left them 
outside my door for the mailman to pick up. The local Post office station 
has been receptive to this procedure. For other mail I live within walking 
distance to a Post Office or else will mail it from one of the offices I 
work out of.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tammy Cantrell" <t.l.cantrell at comcast.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 7:41 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question


>I have a legal question I need some input on from those that know more 
>about this than I do.  I'll give you the situation 1st and then the 
>question.
>    Situation:
>    A totally blind person lives in an apartment complex.  The US Postal 
> Service delivers mail to each apartment.  For out going mail, there used 
> to be a drop box within the complex.  It was close to the office area but 
> was still available.
>    Now the Postal Service has removed the drop box for the out going mail. 
> The only way this blind person has of sending mail is either stand around 
> and wait for the mail carrier, entrust the out going mail to somebody else 
> to drop off or (here's the best one)  make an appointment with Access 
> which is their Paratransit service, pay $3.50 one way spend 3 plus hours 
> and deliver the letter, then pay $3.50 again to return home.
>    The removal of the out going drop box was not at the request of the 
> Apartment Complex.  The Postal Service stated that the drop box was not 
> cost effective, therefore, it had to be removed.
>    Question:
>    What legal steps can be taken to resolve this situation.
>    There has already been useless conversations with the local Post 
> Office.  I would be very interested in hearing your suggestions.
>    Thanks so much for your assistance!
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Apr  1 06:42:34 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 23:42:34 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Telework firm urges training on hiring of disabled
	workers
Message-ID: <09BBB7B05CAA4BCD9E074933E7C3633B@spike>

Washington Post (Washington DC)
March 28, 2010


Telework firm urges federal training on hiring disabled workers



By Ed O'Keefe<
http://projects
. washingtonpost. com/staff/ articles/ ed+o%27keefe/>
Washington Post Staff Writer


Almost half of human resources officials responsible for hiring and retaining
federal workers say they have not received adequate training on how to manage
and retain employees with severe disabilities, according to the results of a
survey by the Telework Exchange and the Federal Managers Association set for
release Monday. Many are also unfamiliar with mandates designed to promote the
hiring of disabled applicants and hiring rules that allow for the noncompetitive
hiring of disabled people.


Though 71 percent of the respondents said their agencies are committed to hiring
disabled workers, 40 percent said they have not received adequate training to
effectively manage disabled employees, according to the survey. The Telework
Exchange, continuing its push for advancing teleworking, and the Federal
Managers Association partnered on the study in advance of a conference set for
next week that will press the Obama administration on the teleworking option for
federal workers.


"Telework is certainly one way that would allow many people with disabilities to
utilize their talents on behalf of the government, while overcoming barriers
that may keep them out of the workplace," said Todd Wells, executive director of
the Federal Managers Association.


The survey also noted that 45 percent of federal hiring managers surveyed said
they have not received adequate training on retaining disabled employees. The
voluntary online survey of 513 federal hiring officers from across the
government was taken between Jan. 25 and Feb. 5, roughly a month before the
Office of Personnel Management held a training session for more than 600 federal
hiring managers about hiring and retaining disabled workers.


During the session OPM unveiled a new online training tool for hiring officials
that instructs them on how to use Schedule A, a noncompetitive hiring waiver
that permits agencies to hire severely disabled individuals, an OPM spokesman
said. The agency is developing a similar training tool for disabled applicants
wishing to be hired under the waiver.
"We are working diligently to attract and hire individuals with disabilities, "
OPM spokesman Edmund Byrnes said in a statement.


OPM and the Labor Department's Office of Disability Policy also will hold a
hiring fair on April 26 at the Washington Convention Center. More than 70
agencies with job openings have been invited to search a database with more than
4,000 resumes of disabled applicants. Agencies are encouraged to schedule
interviews with disabled applicants at the April event, OPM said.


A House committee last week approved a bill that would require the federal
government to develop plans to expand the policy across the federal workforce.
Agencies would be required to hire a telework managing officer, responsible for
overseeing implementation of the policy. By the end of fiscal 2011 OPM Director
John Berry, a teleworking advocate, hopes to double the number of teleworkers
from the 102,900 of fiscal year 2009.


The White House said Kareem Dale, President Obama's special assistant on
disability policy, will address the survey's findings at next week's conference.


Source: 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/28/AR20100328 02856.\html

From LBlake at nfb.org  Thu Apr  1 14:18:08 2010
From: LBlake at nfb.org (Blake, Lou Ann)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 10:18:08 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] 2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium
Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B0243F54C@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local>

ONE WEEK LEFT TO REGISTER!

 

Registration Deadline is April 8, 2010

 

2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium

 

Equality, Difference, and the Right to Live in the World

 

A Cross-Disability Symposium

 

April 15-16, 2010

at the

National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute

Baltimore, Maryland

 

Join many of the nation's leading disability rights advocates and
scholars in a cross-disability consideration of the concepts of equality
and difference as they relate to people with disabilities in

 

*        ADA/Rehabilitation Act

*        class actions & litigation issues

*        employment, 

*        education, 

*        medical treatment, and 

*        access to technology

 

 

KEYNOTE SPEAKERS:

 

Tom Perez

United States Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights 

 

Tony Coelho, Chairman of the Board

American Association of People with Disabilities

 

With an expanded format to incorporate workshops, the 2010 symposium
will provide more time for discussion, collaboration, and networking
with lawyers and other advocates who represent clients with a broad
range of disabilities.

 

2010 plenary session speakers will be:

 

*	Adrienne Asch, Director, Center for Ethics, Yeshiva University
*	Dan Brock, Director, Division of Medical Ethics, Harvard Medical
School
*	Richard Brown, Chief Judge, Wisconsin Court of Appeals
*	David Ferleger, Esquire, Law Office of David Ferleger
*	Dan Goldstein, Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP
*	Andrew Imparato, President and CEO, American Association of
People with Disabilities
*	Leslie Seid Margolis, Managing Attorney, Education Unit,
Maryland Disability Law Center
*	Mark Weber, Vincent dePaul Professor of Law, DePaul University
College of Law

 

2010 workshop facilitators will be:

 

*	Charles Brown, Director, Volunteer Lawyers for the Blind,
American Action Fund for Blind Children and Adults
*	Ira Burnim, Legal Director, Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law
*	Claudia Center, Senior Staff Attorney, The Legal Aid Society
Employment Law Center
*	Marc Charmatz, Senior Attorney, National Association of the Deaf
*	Robert Dinerstein, Professor of Law and Director of Clinical
Programs,  American University Washington College of Law
*	Eve Hill, Senior Vice President, Burton Blatt Institute
*	Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP
*	Christopher Kuczynski, Esquire, Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission
*	Jennifer Mathis, Deputy Legal Director, Bazelon Center for
Mental Health Law
*	Ruby Moore, Executive Director, Georgia Advocacy Office, Inc.
*	Ari Ne'eman, President, Autistic Self-Advocacy Network
*	Steven Schwartz, Executive Director, Center for Public
Representation

 

Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights Tom Perez and Tony Coelho,
Chairman of the Board for the American Association of People with
Disabilities, will be the keynote speakers.

 

Documentation for CLE credits will be provided.

 

Registration fee: $175

Student registration fee: $25

 

A limited number of scholarships to cover the registration fee will be
available to individuals with demonstrated financial need.

 

To learn more about the symposium and symposium sponsorship
opportunities, view the agenda, and register online, please visit
http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Law_Symposium.asp
<http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Law_Symposium.asp> .  You may also download from
this Web site a registration form to mail or fax.  Hotel information is
also available on the symposium Web site.

 

For additional information, contact:

 

Lou Ann Blake, JD

Law Symposium Coordinator

Jacobus tenBroek Library

Jernigan Institute

NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND

200 East Wells Street

at Jernigan Place

Baltimore, Maryland 21230

Telephone: 410-659-9314, ext. 2221

E-mail: lblake at nfb.org

 

 

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND LAWYERS

2010 SPRING MEETING

 

Do you have all your continuing legal education credits?  Do you want to
learn about disability law and issues impacting blind lawyers
specifically?

 

Join the National Association of Blind Lawyers (NABL) members for an
interactive Seminar in connection with the 2010 Jacobus tenBroek
Disability Law Symposium on Friday April 16th at 2:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.
Ever wondered how to deal with interviewing, hiring, and firing
employees including readers?  Want to talk about nuts and bolts like
handling exhibits?

 

If you sign up for both the seminar and the tenBroek Symposium which
takes place on April 15th and the morning of the 16th, you will receive
a discount on the NABL seminar.  Both the Symposium and the Seminar will
take place at the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute,
200 East Wells St. at Jernigan Place in Baltimore, Maryland.  

 

This Seminar is open to all. Seminar topics will include:

 

1. An update on recent case law affecting blind Americans;

2. Learning Braille and losing vision after becoming a lawyer;

3. Tips and tricks - trial techniques, examination of case files and
other documents, and   

    supervision of attorneys and other staff; 

4. Research tools accessible to blind attorneys; and 

5. Interviewing, selecting, and terminating staff. 

 

Admission to the NABL Seminar is $25 for those who have registered for
the tenBroek Symposium and $50 for those who have not.  For students,
admission is free.  Lunch will be provided.  For those seeking CLE,
certificates will be available.  

 

Don't miss this exciting opportunity to learn from and interact with
fellow blind and visually impaired attorneys, law students and others.  

 

For further information, or to register, contact Scott LaBarre,
President, NABL at slabarre at labarrelaw.com or 303 504-5979.  You should
register by April 8th or the cost of the seminar will increase by
$15.00.

 


From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Thu Apr  1 15:18:08 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 09:18:08 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: 2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium
Message-ID: <8BA97FA30E3849A893DF7F73F13037B3@labarre>

As you will see below, there is one week left to register for the tenBroek Syposium and the follow-on meeting of the National Association of Blind Lawyers.  Please get your registrations into us as soon as possible.
Thanks, 
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.
*******************


ONE WEEK LEFT TO REGISTER!

 

Registration Deadline is April 8, 2010

 

2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium

 

Equality, Difference, and the Right to Live in the World

 

A Cross-Disability Symposium

 

April 15-16, 2010

at the

National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute

Baltimore, Maryland

 

Join many of the nation's leading disability rights advocates and scholars in a cross-disability consideration of the concepts of equality and difference as they relate to people with disabilities in

 

·        ADA/Rehabilitation Act

·        class actions & litigation issues

·        employment, 

·        education, 

·        medical treatment, and 

·        access to technology

 

 

KEYNOTE SPEAKERS:

 

Tom Perez

United States Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights 

 

Tony Coelho, Chairman of the Board

American Association of People with Disabilities

 

With an expanded format to incorporate workshops, the 2010 symposium will provide more time for discussion, collaboration, and networking with lawyers and other advocates who represent clients with a broad range of disabilities.

 

2010 plenary session speakers will be:

 

  a.. Adrienne Asch, Director, Center for Ethics, Yeshiva University 
  b.. Dan Brock, Director, Division of Medical Ethics, Harvard Medical School 
  c.. Richard Brown, Chief Judge, Wisconsin Court of Appeals 
  d.. David Ferleger, Esquire, Law Office of David Ferleger 
  e.. Dan Goldstein, Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP 
  f.. Andrew Imparato, President and CEO, American Association of People with Disabilities 
  g.. Leslie Seid Margolis, Managing Attorney, Education Unit, Maryland Disability Law Center 
  h.. Mark Weber, Vincent dePaul Professor of Law, DePaul University College of Law
 

2010 workshop facilitators will be:

 

  a.. Charles Brown, Director, Volunteer Lawyers for the Blind, American Action Fund for Blind Children and Adults 
  b.. Ira Burnim, Legal Director, Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law 
  c.. Claudia Center, Senior Staff Attorney, The Legal Aid Society Employment Law Center 
  d.. Marc Charmatz, Senior Attorney, National Association of the Deaf 
  e.. Robert Dinerstein, Professor of Law and Director of Clinical Programs,  American University Washington College of Law 
  f.. Eve Hill, Senior Vice President, Burton Blatt Institute 
  g.. Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP 
  h.. Christopher Kuczynski, Esquire, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission 
  i.. Jennifer Mathis, Deputy Legal Director, Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law 
  j.. Ruby Moore, Executive Director, Georgia Advocacy Office, Inc. 
  k.. Ari Ne'eman, President, Autistic Self-Advocacy Network 
  l.. Steven Schwartz, Executive Director, Center for Public Representation
 

Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights Tom Perez and Tony Coelho, Chairman of the Board for the American Association of People with Disabilities, will be the keynote speakers.

 

Documentation for CLE credits will be provided.

 

Registration fee: $175

Student registration fee: $25

 

A limited number of scholarships to cover the registration fee will be available to individuals with demonstrated financial need.

 

To learn more about the symposium and symposium sponsorship opportunities, view the agenda, and register online, please visit http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Law_Symposium.asp.  You may also download from this Web site a registration form to mail or fax.  Hotel information is also available on the symposium Web site.

 

For additional information, contact:

 

Lou Ann Blake, JD

Law Symposium Coordinator

Jacobus tenBroek Library

Jernigan Institute

NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND

200 East Wells Street

at Jernigan Place

Baltimore, Maryland 21230

Telephone: 410-659-9314, ext. 2221

E-mail: lblake at nfb.org

 

 

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND LAWYERS

2010 SPRING MEETING

 

Do you have all your continuing legal education credits?  Do you want to learn about disability law and issues impacting blind lawyers specifically?

 

Join the National Association of Blind Lawyers (NABL) members for an interactive Seminar in connection with the 2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium on Friday April 16th at 2:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.  Ever wondered how to deal with interviewing, hiring, and firing employees including readers?  Want to talk about nuts and bolts like handling exhibits?

 

If you sign up for both the seminar and the tenBroek Symposium which takes place on April 15th and the morning of the 16th, you will receive a discount on the NABL seminar.  Both the Symposium and the Seminar will take place at the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, 200 East Wells St. at Jernigan Place in Baltimore, Maryland.  

 

This Seminar is open to all. Seminar topics will include:

 

1. An update on recent case law affecting blind Americans;

2. Learning Braille and losing vision after becoming a lawyer;

3. Tips and tricks - trial techniques, examination of case files and other documents, and   

    supervision of attorneys and other staff; 

4. Research tools accessible to blind attorneys; and 

5. Interviewing, selecting, and terminating staff. 

 

Admission to the NABL Seminar is $25 for those who have registered for the tenBroek Symposium and $50 for those who have not.  For students, admission is free.  Lunch will be provided.  For those seeking CLE, certificates will be available.  

 

Don't miss this exciting opportunity to learn from and interact with fellow blind and visually impaired attorneys, law students and others.  

 

For further information, or to register, contact Scott LaBarre, President, NABL at slabarre at labarrelaw.com or 303 504-5979.  You should register by April 8th or the cost of the seminar will increase by $15.00.

 

From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Thu Apr  1 15:16:49 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:16:49 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question
In-Reply-To: <74D1A6A637564CACAC3B7E070F25B36C@owner1b4ab732f>
References: <74D1A6A637564CACAC3B7E070F25B36C@owner1b4ab732f>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6CF2@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

The drop (outgoing) box at our condominium complex was also removed a
few years ago, due to thefts from our community mailboxes (incoming - so
not really seeing the connection there!).  Fortunately, the Homeowners
Association has an office in the complex, with a full-time secretary,
who agreed to place resident mail in the office outgoing basket, which
still exists due to the fact that the mailman must go into the office to
deliver items to the HOA.  It's not a legal/law solution, and I  am not
sure if your apartment manager is equally trustworthy and/or willing to
do this, but it has worked in our community.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Tammy Cantrell
Sent: Wednesday, 31 March, 2010 7:42 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question

I have a legal question I need some input on from those that know more
about this than I do.  I'll give you the situation 1st and then the
question.
    Situation:
    A totally blind person lives in an apartment complex.  The US Postal
Service delivers mail to each apartment.  For out going mail, there used
to be a drop box within the complex.  It was close to the office area
but was still available.
    Now the Postal Service has removed the drop box for the out going
mail.  The only way this blind person has of sending mail is either
stand around and wait for the mail carrier, entrust the out going mail
to somebody else to drop off or (here's the best one)  make an
appointment with Access which is their Paratransit service, pay $3.50
one way spend 3 plus hours and deliver the letter, then pay $3.50 again
to return home.  
    The removal of the out going drop box was not at the request of the
Apartment Complex.  The Postal Service stated that the drop box was not
cost effective, therefore, it had to be removed.
    Question:
    What legal steps can be taken to resolve this situation.
    There has already been useless conversations with the local Post
Office.  I would be very interested in hearing your suggestions.
    Thanks so much for your assistance! 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
pima.gov




From mike.sandi at att.net  Thu Apr  1 16:29:15 2010
From: mike.sandi at att.net (Michael Groat)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 09:29:15 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along with the
	changing color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <034501cad059$730318d0$59094a70$@com>
References: <67ba2.6a1c5023.38e146eb@aol.com>	<47359EDB-A5DC-48DE-B38B-9E8D775E83E8@sbcglobal.net><auto-000145731384@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<034501cad059$730318d0$59094a70$@com>
Message-ID: <14766A2ED7204F73AF5DA6F764A1F483@PUTTPUTT>

Hello All,
I'm confused.  In reading the string of the emails, there are a few things
that constantly stand out and that is that it appears that many are trying
to avoid acknowledging their blindness.  I understand only too well about
desiring to hang on to sight as long as possible.  

What is wrong with using a White Cane and acknowledging one's vision loss?
>From my perspective, just carrying a white cane is the worst thing a person
can do.  Just carrying a white cane causes confusion for the sighted.  One
is either Vision Impaired or not.  If one is Vision Impaired, then why
aren't they using the white came.  Most of the sighted don't understand that
there a myriad of variations of vision impairment.  The Vision Impaired need
to think about what is seen by the sighted and not from their own viewpoint.
What may be logical to one may be confusing to another.  This is especially
true when it is between the Visually Impaired and the sighted where the
white cane is concerned.  Why not use the white cane and let people know
what you can do on your own?  

Many of the emails appear that many people are not addressing the whole
picture.  I have found that by using my white cane that many people do
acknowledge it and I am getting there respect by doing things on my own.
Yes, I have also received the comments of "may I be of assistance" or let me
help you".  One must remember that there many people that try to be a Good
Samaritan to everyone and they should not be insulted for their efforts,
even if we don't care for it.  When I come a cross a person that doesn't
know about the white cane, I then have the opportunity to inform them, which
will make it better for the next blind person.  Even if one is not totally
blind, the white cane needs to be used.  

I have found that by using my white cane (even though I have some peripheral
vision) and doing what I can on my own, that I am being accepted as is,
which reality is.

By acknowledging your blindness by using the white cane, you will be
accepted in time.  Remember, you need to help train the SIGHTED.

I have seen some of the emails addressing changing the color of the white
cane.  I am not sure just how the law is written, but there may be a legal
issue with changing the color of the cane.  

The white cane is universally accepted, so what is the problem with leaving
the dame white?  Is this idea just another way to avoid acknowledging one's
vision loss?  The white color is the most reflective color and that is part
of the safety issue.  

It also appears that many of the Vision Impaired is letting their Print
Impairment affect their view of the sighted and reality.  

The key to acceptance is to acknowledge and deal with one's vision
impairment.   


Being Accepted as an equal is the goal for all of us.  How one goes about
getting that acceptance may very well be the 'if and when' the acceptance is
obtained.  

Is there an EGO problem with using the white cane?
Michael



  

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 3:37 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness

>From my reading of Mark's statement....and he can defend his own....but I
didn't see where he said not to use a cane.

One problem in this e-mail  trail and others is that many times, myself
included, read what we want to out of a person's statement rather than what
they really said.  I guess, as in court, yowe cannot come to an amicable
resolution if the facts are not taken into consideration.

I'm sure there will be a statement regarding this one that may take a word
or two out of context.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of David Andrews
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 2:38 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness

Mark:

I suppose it is a goal to "blend in and not stand out" as you say, 
but not just in a physical sense.  I want to be a part of society, an 
equal, getting the bad and the good do along with my sighted 
counterparts.  With the tools available to me today, cane, dog etc., 
I will always stand out some.  So instead of trying to hide that I 
need to be proud of my blindness and promote a positive attitude 
towards those tools and blind people, so the stigma goes away.  There 
is a stigma because we are not equals -- our unemployment rate etc. 
prove that.  When we change that it won't matter that we carry a 
cane, use a dog etc.  We won't change attitudes by not using canes 
and the like though.

Dave

At 08:00 PM 3/28/2010, you wrote:
>I'm not quibbling with the white cane as a mobility tool.  However,
>recently a thread started here about carrying a white cane merely to
>identify oneself as blind, so as not to cause confusion when being
>unable to read name tags, etc., at a symposium or whatever.  It was
>put forth that canes should be carried, in addition to any value they
>may have as a mobility aid, merely to identify a blind person as
>blind, and to allow the sighted to give them a "handicap," in not
>being able to read name tags.  For this purpose, a sign declaring "I
>am blind, please act accordingly," would serve just as well, it seems
>to me, and the white cane then becomes a stigma-maker, not a tool.
>For purposes of this discussion, the "white," color of the cane
>becomes the "distress cry of the blind," or something; the identifying
>mark by which blind people are known and warn their surroundings that
>they are in fact in need of a handicap.  This is one reason why I want
>to use a cane that's other than white with a red tip.  It is very true
>that, even with my guide dog, when I wear sunglasses, I am often
>mistaken for a dog-walker, not a guide dog user.  It's like that old
>left-handed compliment, "No one would know you're blind, you do that
>so well."  That infuriates me when it's said to me.  It seems that
>some here are trying to avoid just this situation--being mistaken for
>a sighted person--when I should think that was the ultimate goal of
>any blind person--to blend in and not stand out.


_______________________________________________
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et



From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Thu Apr  1 17:08:31 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 10:08:31 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along with
 the changing color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <14766A2ED7204F73AF5DA6F764A1F483@PUTTPUTT>
References: <67ba2.6a1c5023.38e146eb@aol.com>
	<47359EDB-A5DC-48DE-B38B-9E8D775E83E8@sbcglobal.net><auto-000145731384@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<034501cad059$730318d0$59094a70$@com>
	<14766A2ED7204F73AF5DA6F764A1F483@PUTTPUTT>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6CF5@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

I have to admit sharing some ( a lot) of your confusion / amusement with
that - I too have a fair amount of peripheral vision, but tend to use
the cane outside (bright light makes it almost as difficult to see as
dimness) and in unfamiliar settings to avoid tripping, breaking things,
etc.  When people then see me pull out my portable video magnifier and
write things down (albeit in huge letters) they are confused and even
hostile at times.  I simply explain the situation and even joke (as is
true) that I used to think white canes were only used by folks with no
vision.  Until confronted with the reality that is what it is, a fair
majority of people neither know nor understand that "visually impaired"
includes folks with some usable sight.  

I'm not thrilled about using a cane, just as I wasn't thrilled using
crutches when I had unexpected foot surgery - but I can still see having
a little fun with it (like the strap decoration suggestion) so long as
it neither destroys it's purpose or usefulness.  Just a thought....

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Michael Groat
Sent: Thursday, 01 April, 2010 9:29 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along with
the changing color of the cane

Hello All,
I'm confused.  In reading the string of the emails, there are a few
things
that constantly stand out and that is that it appears that many are
trying
to avoid acknowledging their blindness.  I understand only too well
about
desiring to hang on to sight as long as possible.  

What is wrong with using a White Cane and acknowledging one's vision
loss?
>From my perspective, just carrying a white cane is the worst thing a
person
can do.  Just carrying a white cane causes confusion for the sighted.
One
is either Vision Impaired or not.  If one is Vision Impaired, then why
aren't they using the white came.  Most of the sighted don't understand
that
there a myriad of variations of vision impairment.  The Vision Impaired
need
to think about what is seen by the sighted and not from their own
viewpoint.
What may be logical to one may be confusing to another.  This is
especially
true when it is between the Visually Impaired and the sighted where the
white cane is concerned.  Why not use the white cane and let people know
what you can do on your own?  

Many of the emails appear that many people are not addressing the whole
picture.  I have found that by using my white cane that many people do
acknowledge it and I am getting there respect by doing things on my own.
Yes, I have also received the comments of "may I be of assistance" or
let me
help you".  One must remember that there many people that try to be a
Good
Samaritan to everyone and they should not be insulted for their efforts,
even if we don't care for it.  When I come a cross a person that doesn't
know about the white cane, I then have the opportunity to inform them,
which
will make it better for the next blind person.  Even if one is not
totally
blind, the white cane needs to be used.  

I have found that by using my white cane (even though I have some
peripheral
vision) and doing what I can on my own, that I am being accepted as is,
which reality is.

By acknowledging your blindness by using the white cane, you will be
accepted in time.  Remember, you need to help train the SIGHTED.

I have seen some of the emails addressing changing the color of the
white
cane.  I am not sure just how the law is written, but there may be a
legal
issue with changing the color of the cane.  

The white cane is universally accepted, so what is the problem with
leaving
the dame white?  Is this idea just another way to avoid acknowledging
one's
vision loss?  The white color is the most reflective color and that is
part
of the safety issue.  

It also appears that many of the Vision Impaired is letting their Print
Impairment affect their view of the sighted and reality.  

The key to acceptance is to acknowledge and deal with one's vision
impairment.   


Being Accepted as an equal is the goal for all of us.  How one goes
about
getting that acceptance may very well be the 'if and when' the
acceptance is
obtained.  

Is there an EGO problem with using the white cane?
Michael



  

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 3:37 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness

>From my reading of Mark's statement....and he can defend his own....but
I
didn't see where he said not to use a cane.

One problem in this e-mail  trail and others is that many times, myself
included, read what we want to out of a person's statement rather than
what
they really said.  I guess, as in court, yowe cannot come to an amicable
resolution if the facts are not taken into consideration.

I'm sure there will be a statement regarding this one that may take a
word
or two out of context.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
Behalf Of David Andrews
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 2:38 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness

Mark:

I suppose it is a goal to "blend in and not stand out" as you say, 
but not just in a physical sense.  I want to be a part of society, an 
equal, getting the bad and the good do along with my sighted 
counterparts.  With the tools available to me today, cane, dog etc., 
I will always stand out some.  So instead of trying to hide that I 
need to be proud of my blindness and promote a positive attitude 
towards those tools and blind people, so the stigma goes away.  There 
is a stigma because we are not equals -- our unemployment rate etc. 
prove that.  When we change that it won't matter that we carry a 
cane, use a dog etc.  We won't change attitudes by not using canes 
and the like though.

Dave

At 08:00 PM 3/28/2010, you wrote:
>I'm not quibbling with the white cane as a mobility tool.  However,
>recently a thread started here about carrying a white cane merely to
>identify oneself as blind, so as not to cause confusion when being
>unable to read name tags, etc., at a symposium or whatever.  It was
>put forth that canes should be carried, in addition to any value they
>may have as a mobility aid, merely to identify a blind person as
>blind, and to allow the sighted to give them a "handicap," in not
>being able to read name tags.  For this purpose, a sign declaring "I
>am blind, please act accordingly," would serve just as well, it seems
>to me, and the white cane then becomes a stigma-maker, not a tool.
>For purposes of this discussion, the "white," color of the cane
>becomes the "distress cry of the blind," or something; the identifying
>mark by which blind people are known and warn their surroundings that
>they are in fact in need of a handicap.  This is one reason why I want
>to use a cane that's other than white with a red tip.  It is very true
>that, even with my guide dog, when I wear sunglasses, I am often
>mistaken for a dog-walker, not a guide dog user.  It's like that old
>left-handed compliment, "No one would know you're blind, you do that
>so well."  That infuriates me when it's said to me.  It seems that
>some here are trying to avoid just this situation--being mistaken for
>a sighted person--when I should think that was the ultimate goal of
>any blind person--to blend in and not stand out.


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%4
0gma
il.com


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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mike.sandi%40a
tt.n
et


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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pima.gov




From jsorozco at gmail.com  Thu Apr  1 17:51:40 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:51:40 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along with
	thechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <14766A2ED7204F73AF5DA6F764A1F483@PUTTPUTT>
Message-ID: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>

Michael,

Your message is mostly confusing to me.  Still, I'll say for my part that to
me the cane is a mobility aid, nothing more symbolic than a tool to help me
avoid obstacles.  While it certainly tells people that I am blind, I do not
mean for it to act as a banner for equality or acceptance.  Senior citizens
do not need to use a standard walking stick to signal to the public that
they are senior citizens and may require some assistance.  Pedestrians do
not need to wear reflective material to alert the public of their presence
on streets.  Frankly, I don't understand the concept behind safety in
reflective material for the cane, because blind people should strive to be
cautious travelers with or without the false sense of security from this
reflective material.  Not even a year ago a good friend of mine in Texas was
struck by a car with his cane fully extended.  If we're running the same
risk, why should blind people be confined to a specific image the public
deems necessary for our safety?  To me it's a label that may have been
relevant when these laws were passed in a prior era, but times have changed.
People do not like to be labeled.  People want to integrate into society
without the glaring use of reminders the general public feels it needs to
impose on people with disabilities, but most important, it's not a proposal
for a change in laws in the first place.  The discussion spun out of a few
individuals' contemplation to do something unique to their mobility tools.
I do not buy the argument that the general public would wake up one day and
be totally overwhelmed by the sight of blind people strolling about with
different colored canes.  At the bottom line rests the simple reality that
you respect your fellow man, and if you are approaching said fellow man in a
vehicle, you are careful driving past or around them regardless of whether
their cane is white, orange or whether they do not use a cane at all.
Anything less is suggesting we would think less of physically disabled
people if they one day decided to move about in little red wagons instead of
traditional wheelchairs.

Respectfully,

Joe Orozco

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Groat
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:29 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness 
along with thechanging color of the cane

Hello All,
I'm confused.  In reading the string of the emails, there are a 
few things
that constantly stand out and that is that it appears that many 
are trying
to avoid acknowledging their blindness.  I understand only too 
well about
desiring to hang on to sight as long as possible.  

What is wrong with using a White Cane and acknowledging one's 
vision loss?
>From my perspective, just carrying a white cane is the worst 
thing a person
can do.  Just carrying a white cane causes confusion for the 
sighted.  One
is either Vision Impaired or not.  If one is Vision Impaired, then why
aren't they using the white came.  Most of the sighted don't 
understand that
there a myriad of variations of vision impairment.  The Vision 
Impaired need
to think about what is seen by the sighted and not from their 
own viewpoint.
What may be logical to one may be confusing to another.  This 
is especially
true when it is between the Visually Impaired and the sighted where the
white cane is concerned.  Why not use the white cane and let people know
what you can do on your own?  

Many of the emails appear that many people are not addressing the whole
picture.  I have found that by using my white cane that many people do
acknowledge it and I am getting there respect by doing things on my own.
Yes, I have also received the comments of "may I be of 
assistance" or let me
help you".  One must remember that there many people that try 
to be a Good
Samaritan to everyone and they should not be insulted for their efforts,
even if we don't care for it.  When I come a cross a person that doesn't
know about the white cane, I then have the opportunity to 
inform them, which
will make it better for the next blind person.  Even if one is 
not totally
blind, the white cane needs to be used.  

I have found that by using my white cane (even though I have 
some peripheral
vision) and doing what I can on my own, that I am being accepted as is,
which reality is.

By acknowledging your blindness by using the white cane, you will be
accepted in time.  Remember, you need to help train the SIGHTED.

I have seen some of the emails addressing changing the color of 
the white
cane.  I am not sure just how the law is written, but there may 
be a legal
issue with changing the color of the cane.  

The white cane is universally accepted, so what is the problem 
with leaving
the dame white?  Is this idea just another way to avoid 
acknowledging one's
vision loss?  The white color is the most reflective color and 
that is part
of the safety issue.  

It also appears that many of the Vision Impaired is letting their Print
Impairment affect their view of the sighted and reality.  

The key to acceptance is to acknowledge and deal with one's vision
impairment.   


Being Accepted as an equal is the goal for all of us.  How one 
goes about
getting that acceptance may very well be the 'if and when' the 
acceptance is
obtained.  

Is there an EGO problem with using the white cane?
Michael



  

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 3:37 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness

>From my reading of Mark's statement....and he can defend his 
own....but I
didn't see where he said not to use a cane.

One problem in this e-mail  trail and others is that many times, myself
included, read what we want to out of a person's statement 
rather than what
they really said.  I guess, as in court, yowe cannot come to an amicable
resolution if the facts are not taken into consideration.

I'm sure there will be a statement regarding this one that may 
take a word
or two out of context.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of David Andrews
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 2:38 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness

Mark:

I suppose it is a goal to "blend in and not stand out" as you say, 
but not just in a physical sense.  I want to be a part of society, an 
equal, getting the bad and the good do along with my sighted 
counterparts.  With the tools available to me today, cane, dog etc., 
I will always stand out some.  So instead of trying to hide that I 
need to be proud of my blindness and promote a positive attitude 
towards those tools and blind people, so the stigma goes away.  There 
is a stigma because we are not equals -- our unemployment rate etc. 
prove that.  When we change that it won't matter that we carry a 
cane, use a dog etc.  We won't change attitudes by not using canes 
and the like though.

Dave

At 08:00 PM 3/28/2010, you wrote:
>I'm not quibbling with the white cane as a mobility tool.  However,
>recently a thread started here about carrying a white cane merely to
>identify oneself as blind, so as not to cause confusion when being
>unable to read name tags, etc., at a symposium or whatever.  It was
>put forth that canes should be carried, in addition to any value they
>may have as a mobility aid, merely to identify a blind person as
>blind, and to allow the sighted to give them a "handicap," in not
>being able to read name tags.  For this purpose, a sign declaring "I
>am blind, please act accordingly," would serve just as well, it seems
>to me, and the white cane then becomes a stigma-maker, not a tool.
>For purposes of this discussion, the "white," color of the cane
>becomes the "distress cry of the blind," or something; the identifying
>mark by which blind people are known and warn their surroundings that
>they are in fact in need of a handicap.  This is one reason why I want
>to use a cane that's other than white with a red tip.  It is very true
>that, even with my guide dog, when I wear sunglasses, I am often
>mistaken for a dog-walker, not a guide dog user.  It's like that old
>left-handed compliment, "No one would know you're blind, you do that
>so well."  That infuriates me when it's said to me.  It seems that
>some here are trying to avoid just this situation--being mistaken for
>a sighted person--when I should think that was the ultimate goal of
>any blind person--to blend in and not stand out.


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniv
erse08%40gma
il.com


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mike.s
andi%40att.n
et


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

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virus signature database 4993 (20100401) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4993 (20100401) __________

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From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Thu Apr  1 19:58:22 2010
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:58:22 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along with
	thechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>
References: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>
Message-ID: <F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>

Can't resist:

I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool  
because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't  
like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor  
do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and  
helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,  
designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing  
for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve  
more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have  
pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed  
now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes  
a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak  
softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)

Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device  
to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very  
narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,  
I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping  
purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,  
as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I  
just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of  
the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,  
however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person  
who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,  
possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling  
that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the  
whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I  
am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or  
is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify  
with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I  
grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming  
obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is  
another thing altogether.

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Thu Apr  1 20:17:01 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:17:01 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along
	withthechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>
References: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>
	<F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>

Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever color traffic 
lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of uniformity???

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along 
withthechanging color of the cane


> Can't resist:
>
> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>
> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
> another thing altogether.
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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06:35:00



From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Thu Apr  1 21:33:15 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 15:33:15 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness
	alongwiththechanging color of the cane
References: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus><F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>
	<10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
Message-ID: <CF88DE229BE5481C86768398F8EB2A8C@labarre>

I do believe we have circled and circled again these arguments and think we 
need to move on.  It is an interesting philosophical discussion that we 
should have sometime over drinks or your favorite beverage.  However, the 
discussion has strayed away from the primary mission of this list.
Respectfully,
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.
President
National Association of Blind Lawyers
LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness 
alongwiththechanging color of the cane


> Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever color 
> traffic lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of 
> uniformity???
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along 
> withthechanging color of the cane
>
>
>> Can't resist:
>>
>> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
>> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
>> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
>> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
>> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
>> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
>> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
>> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
>> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
>> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
>> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
>> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>>
>> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
>> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
>> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
>> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
>> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
>> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
>> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
>> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
>> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
>> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
>> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
>> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
>> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
>> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
>> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
>> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
>> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
>> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
>> another thing altogether.
>>
>> Mark BurningHawk
>> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
>> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
>> Namaste!
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2783 - Release Date: 04/01/10 
> 06:35:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From jsorozco at gmail.com  Thu Apr  1 21:51:14 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 17:51:14 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness
	alongwiththechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
Message-ID: <CC3315920A374A208AB43F102CE100C9@Rufus>

The question was not directed at me, but I feel the counter argument here
may be a little stretched.  Traffic lights are for the safety of the whole.
White canes are for the identification of a few.  The government could have
just as easily decreed that canes should be a glaring yellow and achieve the
same level of safety it sought in limiting canes to the color white.  It is
my uneducated opinion that the government merely labeled these laws "White
Cane laws" because they were literally translating the image of the cane,
not because there was any real value in dictating that the canes be white.
We're talking about a person's independent choice of mobility assistance,
not the universal symbol of something like the handicap sticker for parking.
After all, service dogs are service dogs regardless of the breed or style of
harness the dog uses.

Joe Orozco

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 4:17 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness 
alongwiththechanging color of the cane

Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever 
color traffic 
lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of uniformity???

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along 
withthechanging color of the cane


> Can't resist:
>
> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>
> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
> another thing altogether.
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep
.deeley%40insightbb.com


----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2783 - Release Date: 
04/01/10 
06:35:00


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4993 (20100401) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com  Thu Apr  1 22:41:45 2010
From: rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 15:41:45 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and
	Blindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <CC3315920A374A208AB43F102CE100C9@Rufus>
References: <10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
	<CC3315920A374A208AB43F102CE100C9@Rufus>
Message-ID: <247C1B70E46741199F9DB3BD0B5EAAE2@RThomas>

The color white is easier for drivers to see. Using a different color cane
defeats this purpose. The laws are called "white cane" laws for a very good
reason. 

As blind people, We use a cane for mobility. Deaf people use hearing aids;
people with mobility impairments use wheelchairs; some people use contact
lenses. What is the problem? What is the issue?  We use a cane because we
need to.



Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:51 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and
Blindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane

The question was not directed at me, but I feel the counter argument here
may be a little stretched.  Traffic lights are for the safety of the whole.
White canes are for the identification of a few.  The government could have
just as easily decreed that canes should be a glaring yellow and achieve the
same level of safety it sought in limiting canes to the color white.  It is
my uneducated opinion that the government merely labeled these laws "White
Cane laws" because they were literally translating the image of the cane,
not because there was any real value in dictating that the canes be white.
We're talking about a person's independent choice of mobility assistance,
not the universal symbol of something like the handicap sticker for parking.
After all, service dogs are service dogs regardless of the breed or style of
harness the dog uses.

Joe Orozco

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 4:17 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness 
alongwiththechanging color of the cane

Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever 
color traffic 
lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of uniformity???

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along 
withthechanging color of the cane


> Can't resist:
>
> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>
> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
> another thing altogether.
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep
.deeley%40insightbb.com


----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2783 - Release Date: 
04/01/10 
06:35:00


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 4993 (20100401) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4993 (20100401) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
rm.com





From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Thu Apr  1 23:38:46 2010
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:38:46 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along
	withthechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
References: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>
	<F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>
	<10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
Message-ID: <078C7213-B330-4D0F-A92E-02A508E38C84@sbcglobal.net>

Steve, that's a very inaccurate comparison.
First, the traffic light does not advertise to those around it that it  
needs help.  Traffic lights are designed to tell people what to do.   
The white of a white cane is designed to signal to all that a blind  
person is around.  A traffic light signals stop and go; a white cane  
signals "look out, I'm here!" some people don't want to tell everyone  
they're there.

Yes, I know the meaning of uniformity, and I understand it has its  
place; in this case, I reject it, which is my decision.  If it's  
uniformity you want, I suggest you move to a country that does not  
promote individualism and oppresses its members.
D
Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Fri Apr  2 00:20:51 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 20:20:51 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes
	andBlindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <247C1B70E46741199F9DB3BD0B5EAAE2@RThomas>
Message-ID: <C248E4CBCC3B4562899A1006FC0E9432@Rufus>

Okay, last response before Scott LaBarre comes after me with his own cane.
I don't understand why drivers need to identify people with the white cane.
It's understandable why bicyclists need to possess certain reflective
material to be spotted on the road, but unless blind people are going to be
walking willy-nilly in the middle of the street, what is the point of
drivers being able to see the white cane?  This argument suggests blind
people are not sufficiently good travelers and require drivers to be extra
alert of blind pedestrians.  Either we all undergo orientation and mobility
lessons to feel confident on the streets and show the public we can be
trusted to cross said streets, or we show the public that we need to be
handled with care, requiring the color white for no other reason than it
helps drivers pick us out.  I don't think anyone has thus far debated the
use of the cane itself.

Thanks for the lively discussion!

Joe Orozco

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 6:42 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes 
andBlindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane

The color white is easier for drivers to see. Using a different 
color cane
defeats this purpose. The laws are called "white cane" laws for 
a very good
reason. 

As blind people, We use a cane for mobility. Deaf people use 
hearing aids;
people with mobility impairments use wheelchairs; some people 
use contact
lenses. What is the problem? What is the issue?  We use a cane 
because we
need to.



Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:51 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and
Blindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane

The question was not directed at me, but I feel the counter 
argument here
may be a little stretched.  Traffic lights are for the safety 
of the whole.
White canes are for the identification of a few.  The 
government could have
just as easily decreed that canes should be a glaring yellow 
and achieve the
same level of safety it sought in limiting canes to the color 
white.  It is
my uneducated opinion that the government merely labeled these 
laws "White
Cane laws" because they were literally translating the image of 
the cane,
not because there was any real value in dictating that the 
canes be white.
We're talking about a person's independent choice of mobility 
assistance,
not the universal symbol of something like the handicap sticker 
for parking.
After all, service dogs are service dogs regardless of the 
breed or style of
harness the dog uses.

Joe Orozco

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up 
their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 4:17 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness 
alongwiththechanging color of the cane

Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever 
color traffic 
lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of uniformity???

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along 
withthechanging color of the cane


> Can't resist:
>
> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>
> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
> another thing altogether.
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep
.deeley%40insightbb.com


----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2783 - Release Date: 
04/01/10 
06:35:00


_______________________________________________
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From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Fri Apr  2 00:57:52 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 20:57:52 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness
	alongwiththechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <078C7213-B330-4D0F-A92E-02A508E38C84@sbcglobal.net>
References: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>
	<F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>
	<10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
	<078C7213-B330-4D0F-A92E-02A508E38C84@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <C7E7E11D21F54F84AC3BDC00E3617C32@StevePC>

Why don't we just drop this particular thread.  Good luck on handling things 
the way you think they should be handled.
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness 
alongwiththechanging color of the cane


> Steve, that's a very inaccurate comparison.
> First, the traffic light does not advertise to those around it that it
> needs help.  Traffic lights are designed to tell people what to do.
> The white of a white cane is designed to signal to all that a blind
> person is around.  A traffic light signals stop and go; a white cane
> signals "look out, I'm here!" some people don't want to tell everyone
> they're there.
>
> Yes, I know the meaning of uniformity, and I understand it has its
> place; in this case, I reject it, which is my decision.  If it's
> uniformity you want, I suggest you move to a country that does not
> promote individualism and oppresses its members.
> D
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


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From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Fri Apr  2 00:58:23 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 20:58:23 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes
	andBlindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <247C1B70E46741199F9DB3BD0B5EAAE2@RThomas>
References: <10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
	<CC3315920A374A208AB43F102CE100C9@Rufus>
	<247C1B70E46741199F9DB3BD0B5EAAE2@RThomas>
Message-ID: <1077AA37F3EC49C9ABC13D2C8AE709CB@StevePC>

The guy doesn't get it!

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes 
andBlindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane


> The color white is easier for drivers to see. Using a different color cane
> defeats this purpose. The laws are called "white cane" laws for a very 
> good
> reason.
>
> As blind people, We use a cane for mobility. Deaf people use hearing aids;
> people with mobility impairments use wheelchairs; some people use contact
> lenses. What is the problem? What is the issue?  We use a cane because we
> need to.
>
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
>
>
> Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
>
> THOMAS & ASSOCIATES
>
> www.californiaemployersattorneys.com
>
>
>
> Orange County Office
>
> 4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101
>
> Newport Beach, California 92660
>
> T: (949) 752-0101
>
> F: (949) 257-4756
>
> M: (949) 466-7238
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:51 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and
> Blindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane
>
> The question was not directed at me, but I feel the counter argument here
> may be a little stretched.  Traffic lights are for the safety of the 
> whole.
> White canes are for the identification of a few.  The government could 
> have
> just as easily decreed that canes should be a glaring yellow and achieve 
> the
> same level of safety it sought in limiting canes to the color white.  It 
> is
> my uneducated opinion that the government merely labeled these laws "White
> Cane laws" because they were literally translating the image of the cane,
> not because there was any real value in dictating that the canes be white.
> We're talking about a person's independent choice of mobility assistance,
> not the universal symbol of something like the handicap sticker for 
> parking.
> After all, service dogs are service dogs regardless of the breed or style 
> of
> harness the dog uses.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 4:17 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness
> alongwiththechanging color of the cane
>
> Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever
> color traffic
> lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of uniformity???
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along
> withthechanging color of the cane
>
>
>> Can't resist:
>>
>> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
>> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
>> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
>> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
>> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
>> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
>> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
>> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
>> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
>> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
>> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
>> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>>
>> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
>> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
>> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
>> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
>> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
>> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
>> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
>> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
>> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
>> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
>> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
>> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
>> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
>> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
>> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
>> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
>> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
>> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
>> another thing altogether.
>>
>> Mark BurningHawk
>> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
>> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
>> Namaste!
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep
> .deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
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> 06:35:00
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>
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>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
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>
>
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> database 4993 (20100401) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
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>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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06:35:00



From shaunreim at gmail.com  Fri Apr  2 01:17:31 2010
From: shaunreim at gmail.com (ShaunR)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 19:17:31 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along
	withthechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
References: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>
	<F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>
	<10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
Message-ID: <h2m7805eb4d1004011817od61f66d2q8f79b0f9d1faa897@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I'm new to the list, and it's been interesting following this
conversation thread. I can definitely see the merit in both points of
view, and ultimately, it seems to come down to one's personal
perspective. I for one enjoy the communication aspect of my white
cane, despite the stigma/preconceived notions that it brings, but I
see nothing wrong with a person deciding to change the color of their
cane if they choose. Yes, they may be losing an- at times- useful
communication tool, but the white cane does come with real downsides,
and they should feel free to abandon it if they wish.

Personally, I like the communicative power of the white cane I carry.
Before I began carrying a cane, I constantly found myself in awkward
situations with sighted people. Whether I was bumping into people,
missing extended hands, mysteriously tripping over stuff, stepping on
toes or the legs of people sitting on the ground or having thrown
items bounce off me, I always struggled with the problem of when and
when not to provide information about my eyesight. Half the time, when
I did decide to let them in on it, I found that they didn't really
understand the explanation anyway. The white cane cuts through all
that mucky nonsense with people I don't know, and people I do know
well develop a strong sense of my strengths and weaknesses despite it.

I remember this time I was at a train station in Venice Italy trying
to keep up with my wife and brother-in-law. We were in a tunnel under
the train tracks, and the only light coming into the environment was
from stairwells that went up to the surface. My wife and
brother-in-law could see well, but being nightblind, I couldn't. I was
walking pretty fast, and I bumped into this HUGE guy who stepped out
of a stairwell and right in front of me. I said sorry, but he just
stood there staring at me like he wanted to kill me. Luckily, I booked
it out of there in a hurry, but if I'd stuck around he might have
pummeled me. In that situation, a weapon probably wouldn't have helped
me (he would have just took it away and used it on me), but a white
cane would have diffused the situation instantly.

I like that.

Seriously, though, to each there own. Both arguments have merit.

Shaun Reimers


On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Steve P. Deeley
<stevep.deeley at insightbb.com> wrote:
> Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever color traffic
> lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of uniformity???
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk"
> <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along
> withthechanging color of the cane
>
>
>> Can't resist:
>>
>> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
>> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
>> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
>> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
>> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
>> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
>> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
>> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
>> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
>> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
>> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
>> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>>
>> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
>> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
>> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
>> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
>> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
>> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
>> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
>> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
>> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
>> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
>> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
>> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
>> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
>> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
>> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
>> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
>> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
>> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
>> another thing altogether.
>>
>> Mark BurningHawk
>> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
>> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
>> Namaste!
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2783 - Release Date: 04/01/10
> 06:35:00
>
>
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>


From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Fri Apr  2 01:26:46 2010
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 18:26:46 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes
	andBlindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <C248E4CBCC3B4562899A1006FC0E9432@Rufus>
References: <C248E4CBCC3B4562899A1006FC0E9432@Rufus>
Message-ID: <25C00711-C2C8-44F3-BE95-7CCFD4F8A641@sbcglobal.net>

I personally did not work with a mobility instructor when learning to  
navigate streets, except when a very small child, on basic cane  
technique, and a bit in 2008, at which time the person said she had  
nothing she could teach me.  I agree 100$ that the only reason a blind  
person needs to be easy to spot is because of the assumption that said  
blind person is a poor traveler or a liability; this is why I rail  
against the white reflective color; that, and it makes you an easier  
target for those who would mess with you--and yes, people *WILL* mug,  
rob, or try to beat up blind people; no one is untouchable these days,  
don't kid yourself.  This is just one of the stigma that the *WHITE*  
in the white cane carries and that I avoid like the plague.  I can be  
just as competent, and not stand out as much, with a cedar staff or,  
for that matter, a branch cut from a tree, if need be (did that once,  
in an emergency), and no one questions my competence.  Now, though,  
with my hearing loss becoming quite the nuisance, I might choose to  
use a white one, because while I am highly skilled, I'm not stupid or  
too proud to realize that I, with a dual disability, might in fact be  
a liability. So, if you want people to notice you, by all means, wear  
a white vest an carry a white cane and so on.  But, for as long as I  
can, whenever I can, I will reject this and the other stigma...

Okay, sorry Scott; I'm done. again.  Until I'm not. again. :)

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From k7uij at panix.com  Fri Apr  2 02:22:16 2010
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 19:22:16 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question
References: <74D1A6A637564CACAC3B7E070F25B36C@owner1b4ab732f>
	<F2D2D830E33943A0B8404D74771CB46F@spike>
Message-ID: <2008999F40564DDB85F3A126A00A5083@owner1e06aeb63>

The ADA wouldn't apply in any event as it does not apply to the Federal 
government. I agree with Chuck but were any statute to apply, it would be 
Section 504 of the Rehab Act of 1973 as Amended.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Postal question


> This has been a trend that has been happening with the Post Office for the 
> past several years. AS the blind person is not specifically being 
> discriminated against and all residents are doing without the drop box I 
> doubt that this would come under the ADA. There have been times that I 
> have contacted the Post Office to let them know when I had outgoing mail 
> to be picked up such as Braille books to be returned to the library and 
> left them outside my door for the mailman to pick up. The local Post 
> office station has been receptive to this procedure. For other mail I live 
> within walking distance to a Post Office or else will mail it from one of 
> the offices I work out of.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tammy Cantrell" <t.l.cantrell at comcast.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 7:41 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question
>
>
>>I have a legal question I need some input on from those that know more 
>>about this than I do.  I'll give you the situation 1st and then the 
>>question.
>>    Situation:
>>    A totally blind person lives in an apartment complex.  The US Postal 
>> Service delivers mail to each apartment.  For out going mail, there used 
>> to be a drop box within the complex.  It was close to the office area but 
>> was still available.
>>    Now the Postal Service has removed the drop box for the out going 
>> mail. The only way this blind person has of sending mail is either stand 
>> around and wait for the mail carrier, entrust the out going mail to 
>> somebody else to drop off or (here's the best one)  make an appointment 
>> with Access which is their Paratransit service, pay $3.50 one way spend 3 
>> plus hours and deliver the letter, then pay $3.50 again to return home.
>>    The removal of the out going drop box was not at the request of the 
>> Apartment Complex.  The Postal Service stated that the drop box was not 
>> cost effective, therefore, it had to be removed.
>>    Question:
>>    What legal steps can be taken to resolve this situation.
>>    There has already been useless conversations with the local Post 
>> Office.  I would be very interested in hearing your suggestions.
>>    Thanks so much for your assistance!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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> blindlaw:
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From dandrews at visi.com  Fri Apr  2 03:08:42 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 22:08:42 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] On Topic
Message-ID: <auto-000147059113@mailfront1.g2host.com>

OK OK, this is not the cane discussion list, or the color of my cane 
discussion list.  Let's stick to the law and blindness, this one has 
drifted far enough and gone on long enough.

David Andrews, List Owner



From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Fri Apr  2 13:41:32 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 07:41:32 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] On Topic
References: <auto-000147059113@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <28F501C4BB4F4884AA55984C99CA3ACB@labarre>

Agreed, I think that the discussion of the law relevant to the color of 
one's cane has been exhausted.  The rest, although an interesting 
philosophical discussion, is not germane to this list.  It may be an 
interesting topic for some of our other discussion lists and I am sure a 
whole bunch of folks would be happy to engage in that philosophical debate. 
As the last point on this topic, I should mention that our founder, Dr. 
tenBroek, did a great deal of work in the 40's, 50's, and 60's to get "white 
cane" statutes adopted so that the cane and dog  were recognized as mobility 
tools for the blind.  Additionally, those statutes were designed to extend 
civil rights protections to our population as well.  In fact, Dr. tenBroek 
attempted to get disability protection into the  landmark Civil Rights Act 
of 1964.  I wish I could have met Dr. tenBroek because he truly was a man 
way ahead of his time.  His teachings and legal arguments are still the 
foundation of our legal advocacy today.  Again, I thank everyone for  the 
interesting discussion and now it's time to move onto new topics. 
Additionally, I wish all of you a terrific  holiday weekend!
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.
President, NABL
LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 9:08 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] On Topic


> OK OK, this is not the cane discussion list, or the color of my cane 
> discussion list.  Let's stick to the law and blindness, this one has 
> drifted far enough and gone on long enough.
>
> David Andrews, List Owner
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From khagen12 at q.com  Fri Apr  2 20:39:32 2010
From: khagen12 at q.com (kathleen hagen)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:39:32 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
References: <auto-000018901081@mailback2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP371D49551E121D46F3CFD6C91C0@phx.gbl>

Hi Steve,

Question.  I just upgraded my Verizon and am getting an HTC Ozone, as they 
call their brand.  Anyway, do I order the Mobile Speaks software separately? 
If so, where from, and how do I install it?
Thanks for any help you can give.
Kathy Hagen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access


> Cathryn,
>
> Like Joe, I am also using an accessible cellphone through Sprint.  Maybe I 
> can shed a little light on a couple of things.
>
> First, the KNFB Reader phone is as expensive as it is mostly because of 
> the KNFB reader software rather than the phone.  However the total price 
> has come down
> to around $1,500.  Of this, $995 is for the software that converts print 
> into spoken text.  That is about the same price as the K-1000 software 
> that performs that
> function on a personal computer.  Speaking very generally, the phone 
> itself is roughly $300 and the software or "screen reader" that makes the 
> phone functions talk
> is around another $200.  The price estimated here for the phone is based 
> upon buying a phone from a dealer without going through a phone company. 
> Generally if
> you buy a phone through a service provider and sign a two year contract or 
> renew one for two years, the phone company in effect subsidizes the cost 
> of a new
> phone by $150 or $200 or so.  Therefore, if you sign a new contract or 
> extend an existing one, it is very possible that you can get a phone that 
> can be made
> accessible for $100 or so, but you still have to buy a "screen reader" for 
> the phone which will probably cost you another $200.
>
> However, as Joe mentioned, there are some phones out there which have some 
> speech built in.  These phones can cost you less than $100 with a new 
> contract or
> an extension, and no screen reader is required.  However, phones with 
> built-in speech generally cannot handle e-mail or web browsing, but they 
> can usually handle
> text messaging now and allow access to your contacts.  I believe that 
> Sprint still has the LG Rumor 2 and the LG Lotus and there could be others 
> by now that fit this
> category.
>
> You cannot add a screen reader to just any phone.  Like computers, the 
> more advanced phones have "operating systems," and some of these do allow 
> a screen
> reader to be added.  The most common operating system on phones that can 
> be used with Sprint and Verizon is called Windows Mobile.  There is a 
> screen reader
> called Mobile Speak that works with many of these phones.  Such phones are 
> sometimes called SmartPhones or Pocket PC's.  Common brands include 
> Samsung
> and Joe mentioned and also HTC but there are others.  Many of the Palm 
> phones cannot be used with a screen reader.
>
> Many of the phones that work on T-Mobil and AT&T use the Simbian operating 
> system.  There is another screen reader that is used on these phones 
> called TALKS.
> However, Mobile Speak also works on some of these phones, and TALKS works 
> on certain Verizon phones now.  Phones made by Nokia are most common in 
> this
> category, but not all Nokia phones are capablt of supporting a screen 
> reader.
>
> I just went through the process of buying an HTC Snap phone which I use on 
> Sprint with Mobile Speak, and I found the whole business to be confusing 
> at best.
> Therefore, I hope the above helps a little, but keep in mind that 
> something I have written could easily have become out of date since I 
> started this note.  <smile>
> Still, if you can keep in mind that some phones are simply not accessible, 
> some have some built-in accessibility for basics, and some that use 
> Windows Mobile or
> Simbian operating systems can be made accessible with the addition of a 
> screen reader, you will be off to a good start.  Then also remember that 
> you can usually get
> a big discount buying a phone from a service provider with a new contract 
> or contract extension.  Good luck.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson  ,
>
> On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:03:52 -0400, Cathryn Bonnette wrote:
>
>>Thanks much- Do you know if it is possible to purchase the voice software 
>>to
>>install on a cell?
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>Behalf Of Joe Orozco
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:47 AM
>>To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>
>>I have a Samsung Intrepid through Sprint.  I switched over from Verizon,
>>better deal on unlimited data plan.  The only advantage through Verizon, I
>>think, is that you can purchase their HTC Ozone with Mobile Speak 
>>installed.
>>Someone can correct me on that, and Verizon also carries the LG line that
>>provides moderate accessibility.  I also live in DC and both carriers are
>>the best ones here in terms of reception.
>
>>Joe Orozco
>
>>"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>>some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cathryn Bonnette
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:03 AM
>>To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>>Subject: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>
>>Greetings to All:
>
>>
>
>>Wondering if anyone can offer guidance on good deals, best
>>companies, etc.
>>for cell phones or cell/internet packages.  I confess I don't
>>have $2,000.00
>>to spend on the KNFB version, though it sounds great.  I have heard the
>>frustration from Verizon employees in their center for customers with
>>disabilities that no one listens to their attempts to advocate.
>> I observed
>>yesterday that several cell phones using "Talks" voice software are no
>>longer available.
>
>>
>
>>I'm hoping to shortcut similar research on several companies by seeking
>>wisdom from the group.
>
>>
>
>>Thanks in advance for any tips you may have to offer, and thanks for
>>listening-
>
>>
>
>>Cathryn
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindlaw mailing list
>>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>info for blindlaw:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
>>co%40gmail.com
>>
>
>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of
>>virus signature database 4984 (20100330) __________
>
>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>>http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>
>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
>>signature
>>database 4985 (20100330) __________
>
>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>>http://www.eset.com
>>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindlaw mailing list
>>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>blindlaw:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cathrynisfinally%4
>>0verizon.net
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2777 - Release Date: 03/30/10
>>06:32:00
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindlaw mailing list
>>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>blindlaw:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 4986 (20100330) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> 


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4995 (20100402) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com





From khagen12 at q.com  Fri Apr  2 21:04:25 2010
From: khagen12 at q.com (kathleen hagen)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 15:04:25 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
References: <auto-000018901081@mailback2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP33E746BE48F8C8516A4B16C91C0@phx.gbl>

Oops.  I didn't mean that last message asking for more info about mobile 
speak to go to the whole list. Just to Steve Jacobson.  Sorry.
Kathy Hagen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access


> Cathryn,
>
> Like Joe, I am also using an accessible cellphone through Sprint.  Maybe I 
> can shed a little light on a couple of things.
>
> First, the KNFB Reader phone is as expensive as it is mostly because of 
> the KNFB reader software rather than the phone.  However the total price 
> has come down
> to around $1,500.  Of this, $995 is for the software that converts print 
> into spoken text.  That is about the same price as the K-1000 software 
> that performs that
> function on a personal computer.  Speaking very generally, the phone 
> itself is roughly $300 and the software or "screen reader" that makes the 
> phone functions talk
> is around another $200.  The price estimated here for the phone is based 
> upon buying a phone from a dealer without going through a phone company. 
> Generally if
> you buy a phone through a service provider and sign a two year contract or 
> renew one for two years, the phone company in effect subsidizes the cost 
> of a new
> phone by $150 or $200 or so.  Therefore, if you sign a new contract or 
> extend an existing one, it is very possible that you can get a phone that 
> can be made
> accessible for $100 or so, but you still have to buy a "screen reader" for 
> the phone which will probably cost you another $200.
>
> However, as Joe mentioned, there are some phones out there which have some 
> speech built in.  These phones can cost you less than $100 with a new 
> contract or
> an extension, and no screen reader is required.  However, phones with 
> built-in speech generally cannot handle e-mail or web browsing, but they 
> can usually handle
> text messaging now and allow access to your contacts.  I believe that 
> Sprint still has the LG Rumor 2 and the LG Lotus and there could be others 
> by now that fit this
> category.
>
> You cannot add a screen reader to just any phone.  Like computers, the 
> more advanced phones have "operating systems," and some of these do allow 
> a screen
> reader to be added.  The most common operating system on phones that can 
> be used with Sprint and Verizon is called Windows Mobile.  There is a 
> screen reader
> called Mobile Speak that works with many of these phones.  Such phones are 
> sometimes called SmartPhones or Pocket PC's.  Common brands include 
> Samsung
> and Joe mentioned and also HTC but there are others.  Many of the Palm 
> phones cannot be used with a screen reader.
>
> Many of the phones that work on T-Mobil and AT&T use the Simbian operating 
> system.  There is another screen reader that is used on these phones 
> called TALKS.
> However, Mobile Speak also works on some of these phones, and TALKS works 
> on certain Verizon phones now.  Phones made by Nokia are most common in 
> this
> category, but not all Nokia phones are capablt of supporting a screen 
> reader.
>
> I just went through the process of buying an HTC Snap phone which I use on 
> Sprint with Mobile Speak, and I found the whole business to be confusing 
> at best.
> Therefore, I hope the above helps a little, but keep in mind that 
> something I have written could easily have become out of date since I 
> started this note.  <smile>
> Still, if you can keep in mind that some phones are simply not accessible, 
> some have some built-in accessibility for basics, and some that use 
> Windows Mobile or
> Simbian operating systems can be made accessible with the addition of a 
> screen reader, you will be off to a good start.  Then also remember that 
> you can usually get
> a big discount buying a phone from a service provider with a new contract 
> or contract extension.  Good luck.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson  ,
>
> On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:03:52 -0400, Cathryn Bonnette wrote:
>
>>Thanks much- Do you know if it is possible to purchase the voice software 
>>to
>>install on a cell?
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>Behalf Of Joe Orozco
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:47 AM
>>To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>
>>I have a Samsung Intrepid through Sprint.  I switched over from Verizon,
>>better deal on unlimited data plan.  The only advantage through Verizon, I
>>think, is that you can purchase their HTC Ozone with Mobile Speak 
>>installed.
>>Someone can correct me on that, and Verizon also carries the LG line that
>>provides moderate accessibility.  I also live in DC and both carriers are
>>the best ones here in terms of reception.
>
>>Joe Orozco
>
>>"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>>some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cathryn Bonnette
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:03 AM
>>To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>>Subject: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>
>>Greetings to All:
>
>>
>
>>Wondering if anyone can offer guidance on good deals, best
>>companies, etc.
>>for cell phones or cell/internet packages.  I confess I don't
>>have $2,000.00
>>to spend on the KNFB version, though it sounds great.  I have heard the
>>frustration from Verizon employees in their center for customers with
>>disabilities that no one listens to their attempts to advocate.
>> I observed
>>yesterday that several cell phones using "Talks" voice software are no
>>longer available.
>
>>
>
>>I'm hoping to shortcut similar research on several companies by seeking
>>wisdom from the group.
>
>>
>
>>Thanks in advance for any tips you may have to offer, and thanks for
>>listening-
>
>>
>
>>Cathryn
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindlaw mailing list
>>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>info for blindlaw:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
>>co%40gmail.com
>>
>
>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of
>>virus signature database 4984 (20100330) __________
>
>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>>http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>
>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
>>signature
>>database 4985 (20100330) __________
>
>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>>http://www.eset.com
>>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindlaw mailing list
>>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>blindlaw:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cathrynisfinally%4
>>0verizon.net
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2777 - Release Date: 03/30/10
>>06:32:00
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindlaw mailing list
>>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>blindlaw:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/khagen12%40q.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 4986 (20100330) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> 


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4995 (20100402) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com





From joramsey at cox.net  Sat Apr  3 19:34:06 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:34:06 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
Message-ID: <88CA19DA66AA41F5ABFC16C522E8EC66@noneeb869fea9a>

Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a problem. When
the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to discover
what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
Cordially,
John
 

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453


This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 

 
 
 

From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Sun Apr  4 00:26:34 2010
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:26:34 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
References: <88CA19DA66AA41F5ABFC16C522E8EC66@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <C845F2261B8943E3A9AD71FC9FD6A834@none8a46117901>

    Hi John:
I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience in a 
challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse party.
The few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue with the 
State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them (usually the attorney 
general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem for 
me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the 
unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be used 
as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on their 
printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF 
that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader.
With all due respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all 
PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you 
what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that 
assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive 
technology can handle it from there.
Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like, 
because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before.
This issue is fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list 
posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it 
all.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a problem. 
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2788 - Release Date: 04/03/10 
18:32:00



From dravant at ameritech.net  Sun Apr  4 02:01:42 2010
From: dravant at ameritech.net (denise avant)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 21:01:42 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <C845F2261B8943E3A9AD71FC9FD6A834@none8a46117901>
References: <88CA19DA66AA41F5ABFC16C522E8EC66@noneeb869fea9a>
	<C845F2261B8943E3A9AD71FC9FD6A834@none8a46117901>
Message-ID: <000901cad39a$c60e4a10$522ade30$@net>

Hello,
I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office.
However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels, and I
have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or regular adobe.
Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant Attorney Generals are
very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file. But this is done on an
individual basis. I'm not certain there is an overall policy by the offices
itself to do that.
Things may be different at the federal level as the various prosecutors and
defense as well as the courts have communicated in an electronic manner for
years.
If you have not already done so, perhaps you should find someone in the
public defenders office and other offices to explain why your assistive
technology cannot handle their documents.
Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an attempt
to educate and see if this gets the job done.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Ross Doerr
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery

    Hi John:
I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience in a 
challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse party.
The few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue with the 
State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them (usually the attorney 
general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem for 
me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the 
unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be used 
as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on their 
printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF 
that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader.
With all due respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all 
PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you 
what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that 
assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive 
technology can handle it from there.
Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like, 
because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before.
This issue is fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list 
posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it 
all.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a problem. 
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn
er.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2788 - Release Date: 04/03/10 
18:32:00


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritec
h.net
 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 4997 (20100403) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 4997 (20100403) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com
 


From dravant at ameritech.net  Sun Apr  4 03:26:06 2010
From: dravant at ameritech.net (denise avant)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 22:26:06 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA AND DISCOVERY
Message-ID: <000301cad3a6$90ac6710$b2053530$@net>

HELLO,

Just one more thing. If you have openbook, you may try to use the freedom
import printer to pull in the document, so that you can read it. I think
k1000 has a similar feature.

 


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Apr  4 08:10:06 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 01:10:06 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <88CA19DA66AA41F5ABFC16C522E8EC66@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <88CA19DA66AA41F5ABFC16C522E8EC66@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <2532D51C496D4D09A4D060348B702934@spike>

If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be sent 
through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in to a 
PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if the 
documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by OCR 
software.
Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a problem. 
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From joramsey at cox.net  Sun Apr  4 12:20:06 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 08:20:06 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <000901cad39a$c60e4a10$522ade30$@net>
Message-ID: <4661C33BFC4244589A4D50223A62DA36@noneeb869fea9a>

Hello Denise,
I truly appreciate your suggestion and am in the process of doing that,
however, in the meantime, my client has already suffered one adverse ruling
based on a handwritten image scanned into a computer with no readily
identifiable title. Also, as I have already mentioned, all of their PDF
files are in accessible whereas most every other PDF image I receive is
accessible. It is definitely in whatever method of scanning that they are
using.
I will keep you posted.
Cordially,
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of denise avant
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:02 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


Hello,
I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office.
However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels, and I
have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or regular adobe.
Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant Attorney Generals are
very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file. But this is done on an
individual basis. I'm not certain there is an overall policy by the offices
itself to do that. Things may be different at the federal level as the
various prosecutors and defense as well as the courts have communicated in
an electronic manner for years. If you have not already done so, perhaps you
should find someone in the public defenders office and other offices to
explain why your assistive technology cannot handle their documents.
Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an attempt
to educate and see if this gets the job done.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Ross Doerr
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery

    Hi John:
I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience in a 
challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse party. The
few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue with the 
State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them (usually the attorney 
general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem for 
me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the 
unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be used 
as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on their 
printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF 
that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader. With all due
respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all 
PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you 
what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that 
assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive 
technology can handle it from there.
Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like, 
because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before. This issue is
fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list 
posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it 
all.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a 
> problem.
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn
er.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2788 - Release Date: 04/03/10 
18:32:00


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritec
h.net
 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 4997 (20100403) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 4997 (20100403) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com
 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net



From joramsey at cox.net  Sun Apr  4 12:22:49 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 08:22:49 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <2532D51C496D4D09A4D060348B702934@spike>
Message-ID: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>

That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original
handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind
practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely manner.
I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is required or
should be required to provide the text documents in an accessible format. I
am sure the ultimate answer is yes.


John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be sent

through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in to a

PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if the

documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by OCR 
software.
Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a 
> problem.
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net



From lists at zufelt.ca  Sun Apr  4 13:15:13 2010
From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 09:15:13 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <7C4A1CAC-08BE-4FE4-8215-935EE474843B@zufelt.ca>

I find this thread to be quite interesting.  To expand for a moment, I was speaking to a woman in Canada last fall who was in a civil action with a non-governmental body.  The woman was blind and the question arose as to whether the other party in her case was responsible for providing submissions and documents in an accessible form.  There was no judicial treatment o the issue.  However, the accessibility centre at the courthouse at which she was dealing was able to provide some services to assist her.  This was after suggesting that she obtain a volunteer from a charity to assist her with reading the documents.


Everett Zufelt
http://zufelt.ca

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt



On 2010-04-04, at 8:22 AM, John Ramsey wrote:

> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original
> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind
> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely manner.
> I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is required or
> should be required to provide the text documents in an accessible format. I
> am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
> 
> 
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
> 
> P.O. Box 6063
> 
> Gainesville, FL 32627   
> 
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
> 
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
> 
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
> 
> 
> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be sent
> 
> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in to a
> 
> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if the
> 
> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by OCR 
> software.
> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
> 
> 
>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a 
>> problem.
>> When
>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
>> discover
>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>> Cordially,
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>> 
>> P.O. Box 6063
>> 
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>> 
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>> 
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>> 
>> 
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca


From joramsey at cox.net  Sun Apr  4 13:43:26 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 09:43:26 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <7C4A1CAC-08BE-4FE4-8215-935EE474843B@zufelt.ca>
Message-ID: <8DC8F3A0521A488C92C53320E485758C@noneeb869fea9a>

Hello Everett,
That is unfortunately the easy answer, however, seeking qualified volunteer
readers arose a few years ago when I was taking the bar exam and that was
found to be inadequate in defense of allowing me to use my own reader.
Also, since this discovery originates with the State, I am quite sure that
the short answer of having me seek volunteers is not going to work.

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 9:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


I find this thread to be quite interesting.  To expand for a moment, I was
speaking to a woman in Canada last fall who was in a civil action with a
non-governmental body.  The woman was blind and the question arose as to
whether the other party in her case was responsible for providing
submissions and documents in an accessible form.  There was no judicial
treatment o the issue.  However, the accessibility centre at the courthouse
at which she was dealing was able to provide some services to assist her.
This was after suggesting that she obtain a volunteer from a charity to
assist her with reading the documents.


Everett Zufelt
http://zufelt.ca

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt



On 2010-04-04, at 8:22 AM, John Ramsey wrote:

> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original 
> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind 
> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely 
> manner. I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is 
> required or should be required to provide the text documents in an 
> accessible format. I am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
> 
> 
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
> 
> P.O. Box 6063
> 
> Gainesville, FL 32627   
> 
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
> 
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
> 
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email messages 
> may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control.
Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
> 
> 
> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can 
> be sent
> 
> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned 
> in to a
> 
> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is 
> if the
> 
> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by 
> OCR
> software.
> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
> 
> 
>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>> problem.
>> When
>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the
default
>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
>> discover
>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the
form
>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>> Cordially,
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>> 
>> P.O. Box 6063
>> 
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>> 
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>> 
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>> 
>> 
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s
> bcglob
> al.net 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw: 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c
> ox.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw: 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufe
> lt.ca

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net



From lists at zufelt.ca  Sun Apr  4 14:10:57 2010
From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 10:10:57 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <8DC8F3A0521A488C92C53320E485758C@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <8DC8F3A0521A488C92C53320E485758C@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <503D0085-5488-4BF8-8100-735F385BBB9A@zufelt.ca>

Good morning,

Just to clarify, I am not suggesting that a volunteer reader is the appropriate response, just that it was the first option suggested to the woman with whom I was speaking.


Everett Zufelt
http://zufelt.ca

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt



On 2010-04-04, at 9:43 AM, John Ramsey wrote:

> Hello Everett,
> That is unfortunately the easy answer, however, seeking qualified volunteer
> readers arose a few years ago when I was taking the bar exam and that was
> found to be inadequate in defense of allowing me to use my own reader.
> Also, since this discovery originates with the State, I am quite sure that
> the short answer of having me seek volunteers is not going to work.
> 
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
> 
> P.O. Box 6063
> 
> Gainesville, FL 32627   
> 
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
> 
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
> 
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 9:15 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
> 
> 
> I find this thread to be quite interesting.  To expand for a moment, I was
> speaking to a woman in Canada last fall who was in a civil action with a
> non-governmental body.  The woman was blind and the question arose as to
> whether the other party in her case was responsible for providing
> submissions and documents in an accessible form.  There was no judicial
> treatment o the issue.  However, the accessibility centre at the courthouse
> at which she was dealing was able to provide some services to assist her.
> This was after suggesting that she obtain a volunteer from a charity to
> assist her with reading the documents.
> 
> 
> Everett Zufelt
> http://zufelt.ca
> 
> Follow me on Twitter
> http://twitter.com/ezufelt
> 
> View my LinkedIn Profile
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt
> 
> 
> 
> On 2010-04-04, at 8:22 AM, John Ramsey wrote:
> 
>> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original 
>> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind 
>> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely 
>> manner. I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is 
>> required or should be required to provide the text documents in an 
>> accessible format. I am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
>> 
>> 
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>> 
>> P.O. Box 6063
>> 
>> Gainesville, FL 32627   
>> 
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>> 
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>> 
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email messages 
>> may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control.
> Thank you.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>> 
>> 
>> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can 
>> be sent
>> 
>> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned 
>> in to a
>> 
>> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is 
>> if the
>> 
>> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by 
>> OCR
>> software.
>> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
>> 1237 P Street
>> Fresno ca 93721
>> 559-266-9237
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>> 
>> 
>>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>>> problem.
>>> When
>>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the
> default
>>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
>>> discover
>>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the
> form
>>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>>> Cordially,
>>> John
>>> 
>>> 
>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>> 
>>> P.O. Box 6063
>>> 
>>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>> 
>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>> 
>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
>>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
>>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
>>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
>>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
>>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
>>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
>>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
>>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
>>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
>>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
>>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>>> control.  Thank you.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s
>> bcglob
>> al.net 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw: 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c
>> ox.net
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw: 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufe
>> lt.ca
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca


From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 14:12:13 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 10:12:13 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
References: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>

John, I remember once I had jury duty, and I called three weeks ahead of 
time, and told my circuits disability person that I had jury duty. Unknown 
to me, My mother wrote, "I'm totaly blind please excuse on my jury form." It 
was realy imbarising. Now I'm told I'm incompantant to serve as a jurer do 
to the fact my doctor wrote a note stating I am blind. This happened serval 
years ago. What if anything should I have done at the time? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original
> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind
> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely 
> manner.
> I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is required or
> should be required to provide the text documents in an accessible format. 
> I
> am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be 
> sent
>
> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in to 
> a
>
> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if 
> the
>
> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by OCR
> software.
> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>> problem.
>> When
>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the 
>> default
>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>> discover
>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the 
>> form
>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>> Cordially,
>> John
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.
>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey
>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable
>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with
>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you
>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From dwilson.lists at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 16:44:02 2010
From: dwilson.lists at gmail.com (Derek Wilson)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 01:44:02 +0900
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>
	<9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <l2v6152341004040944y3b19d70bhdb93eb37eb58528a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi folks,

This might not answer any questions directly, and may not be relevant
to handwritten documents, but hopefully the presentation lives up to
its title, so here it is:
AFB Consulting and Adobe Present Free Podcast: Debunking the Myth of
PDF Inaccessibility
http://bit.ly/c42uGw

Note: Google does not allow users to send messages in HTML, so
you may need to copy and paste the above link into your browser.

Regards,

Derek Wilson
Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
Twitter: culturemate
LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com




On 4/4/10, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
> John, I remember once I had jury duty, and I called three weeks ahead of
> time, and told my circuits disability person that I had jury duty. Unknown
> to me, My mother wrote, "I'm totaly blind please excuse on my jury form." It
> was realy imbarising. Now I'm told I'm incompantant to serve as a jurer do
> to the fact my doctor wrote a note stating I am blind. This happened serval
> years ago. What if anything should I have done at the time? RJ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 8:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
>> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original
>> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind
>> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely
>> manner.
>> I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is required or
>> should be required to provide the text documents in an accessible format.
>> I
>> am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication
>> in
>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
>> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
>> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that
>> email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be
>> sent
>>
>> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in to
>>
>> a
>>
>> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if
>> the
>>
>> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by OCR
>> software.
>> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
>> 1237 P Street
>> Fresno ca 93721
>> 559-266-9237
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>>> problem.
>>> When
>>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the
>>> default
>>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>>> discover
>>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the
>>> form
>>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>>> Cordially,
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>>
>>> P.O. Box 6063
>>>
>>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>>
>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>>
>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>>
>>>
>>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.
>>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey
>>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable
>>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with
>>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you
>>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>>> control.  Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dwilson.lists%40gmail.com
>


From mike.sandi at att.net  Sun Apr  4 17:29:25 2010
From: mike.sandi at att.net (Michael Groat)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 10:29:25 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <4661C33BFC4244589A4D50223A62DA36@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <000901cad39a$c60e4a10$522ade30$@net>
	<4661C33BFC4244589A4D50223A62DA36@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <CAB654DDFBAC4291AC26C153AF3C3261@PUTTPUTT>

Hello Denise,
I obtained a copy of Adobe Acrobat 9, which is the PDF creator version.  It
is fully functional with a screen reader, at least with JAWS.  I purchased
it because of legal issues.  One thing I like about using it for scanning is
that it will identify a graphical element which tells you that it is not
printed text.  

I have tried reprinting a non-readable PDF to a new PDF file.  The new PDF
was not readable either.  So all that I can suggest is to print and rescan
it.  

I think that you will find that scanning with just OCR software that the
graphical elements will not be identified.

I'm sorry that I can not be of more assistance.
Michael



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John Ramsey
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 5:20 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery

Hello Denise,
I truly appreciate your suggestion and am in the process of doing that,
however, in the meantime, my client has already suffered one adverse ruling
based on a handwritten image scanned into a computer with no readily
identifiable title. Also, as I have already mentioned, all of their PDF
files are in accessible whereas most every other PDF image I receive is
accessible. It is definitely in whatever method of scanning that they are
using.
I will keep you posted.
Cordially,
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of denise avant
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:02 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


Hello,
I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office.
However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels, and I
have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or regular adobe.
Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant Attorney Generals are
very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file. But this is done on an
individual basis. I'm not certain there is an overall policy by the offices
itself to do that. Things may be different at the federal level as the
various prosecutors and defense as well as the courts have communicated in
an electronic manner for years. If you have not already done so, perhaps you
should find someone in the public defenders office and other offices to
explain why your assistive technology cannot handle their documents.
Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an attempt
to educate and see if this gets the job done.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Ross Doerr
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery

    Hi John:
I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience in a 
challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse party. The
few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue with the 
State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them (usually the attorney 
general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem for 
me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the 
unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be used 
as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on their 
printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF 
that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader. With all due
respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all 
PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you 
what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that 
assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive 
technology can handle it from there.
Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like, 
because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before. This issue is
fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list 
posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it 
all.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a 
> problem.
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn
er.com


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_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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et



From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Sun Apr  4 20:39:04 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:39:04 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
References: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a><9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>
	<l2v6152341004040944y3b19d70bhdb93eb37eb58528a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007201cad436$de0a7430$6601a8c0@server>

Hello Derek,
I went to this link and the program is not available until April 5.  I am 
curious to know who AFB Consulting is and how they differ from AFB.  Are 
they some sort of division of AFB who Adobe has hired to partner up with for 
this presentation?  Thanks in advance for any information on this question.
Best,
Dennis


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Derek Wilson" <dwilson.lists at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hi folks,
>
> This might not answer any questions directly, and may not be relevant
> to handwritten documents, but hopefully the presentation lives up to
> its title, so here it is:
> AFB Consulting and Adobe Present Free Podcast: Debunking the Myth of
> PDF Inaccessibility
> http://bit.ly/c42uGw
>
> Note: Google does not allow users to send messages in HTML, so
> you may need to copy and paste the above link into your browser.
>
> Regards,
>
> Derek Wilson
> Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
> Twitter: culturemate
> LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
> Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com
>
>
>
>
> On 4/4/10, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
>> John, I remember once I had jury duty, and I called three weeks ahead of
>> time, and told my circuits disability person that I had jury duty. 
>> Unknown
>> to me, My mother wrote, "I'm totaly blind please excuse on my jury form." 
>> It
>> was realy imbarising. Now I'm told I'm incompantant to serve as a jurer 
>> do
>> to the fact my doctor wrote a note stating I am blind. This happened 
>> serval
>> years ago. What if anything should I have done at the time? RJ
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 8:22 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>>> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original
>>> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind
>>> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely
>>> manner.
>>> I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is required 
>>> or
>>> should be required to provide the text documents in an accessible 
>>> format.
>>> I
>>> am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
>>>
>>>
>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>>
>>> P.O. Box 6063
>>>
>>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>>
>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>>
>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>>
>>> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication
>>> in
>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated 
>>> printed
>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please 
>>> be
>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
>>> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal 
>>> and/or
>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the 
>>> Internet,
>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
>>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that
>>> email
>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>>> control.  Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>>
>>>
>>> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be
>>> sent
>>>
>>> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in 
>>> to
>>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if
>>> the
>>>
>>> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by 
>>> OCR
>>> software.
>>> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
>>> 1237 P Street
>>> Fresno ca 93721
>>> 559-266-9237
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>>>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>>>> problem.
>>>> When
>>>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with 
>>>> documents,
>>>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the
>>>> default
>>>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>>>> discover
>>>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the
>>>> form
>>>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>>>> Cordially,
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>>>
>>>> P.O. Box 6063
>>>>
>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>>>
>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>>>
>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>>>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>>>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>>>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>>>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>>>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>>>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>>>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.
>>>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey
>>>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable
>>>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with
>>>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you
>>>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>>>> control.  Thank you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>>> al.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dwilson.lists%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Apr  4 21:21:55 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 14:21:55 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>
	<9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <730F3565431B43729635CECE52E84729@spike>

In California blind people are not automatically excused from jury duty 
because of blindness. The last time I was called was for a medical 
malpractice wrongful death suit and I was going to be seated as an 
alternate. What got me excused was the concern of the defense attorney that 
my experience as a paralegal working for plaintiff and criminal defense 
attorneys would cause me to have bias in favor of the plaintiff in the case. 
This is what I suspected would happen when I was questioned. The blindness 
issue was not a factor.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> John, I remember once I had jury duty, and I called three weeks ahead of 
> time, and told my circuits disability person that I had jury duty. Unknown 
> to me, My mother wrote, "I'm totaly blind please excuse on my jury form." 
> It was realy imbarising. Now I'm told I'm incompantant to serve as a jurer 
> do to the fact my doctor wrote a note stating I am blind. This happened 
> serval years ago. What if anything should I have done at the time? RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 8:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
>> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original
>> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind
>> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely 
>> manner.
>> I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is required or
>> should be required to provide the text documents in an accessible format. 
>> I
>> am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
>> in
>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated 
>> printed
>> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
>> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal 
>> and/or
>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
>> email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be 
>> sent
>>
>> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in 
>> to a
>>
>> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if 
>> the
>>
>> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by 
>> OCR
>> software.
>> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
>> 1237 P Street
>> Fresno ca 93721
>> 559-266-9237
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>>> problem.
>>> When
>>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the 
>>> default
>>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>>> discover
>>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the 
>>> form
>>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>>> Cordially,
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>>
>>> P.O. Box 6063
>>>
>>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>>
>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>>
>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>>
>>>
>>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.
>>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey
>>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable
>>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with
>>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you
>>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>>> control.  Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From b75205 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 23:18:33 2010
From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:18:33 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <007201cad436$de0a7430$6601a8c0@server>
References: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>
	<9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>
	<l2v6152341004040944y3b19d70bhdb93eb37eb58528a@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201cad436$de0a7430$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <l2nfe5b78281004041618odc73a20di2f74a57364b5acfa@mail.gmail.com>

AFB tech is the technology division of the American Foundation for the
Blind.  Sort of like the Jernigan Institute for the National Federation of
the Blind.  They do a lot of testing of consumer products.  It is the same
people as the AFB, its just their technology division.

James Pepper

From goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr  5 01:19:53 2010
From: goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net (Sarah Clark)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:19:53 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
References: <4661C33BFC4244589A4D50223A62DA36@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <015501cad45e$18a3e910$6701a8c0@computer2>

Hi John,
Your client has suffered as a result of a mistake due to your blindness? 
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but I would conclude that you are not qualified to 
be a lawyer, representing clients, until you figure out a solution to get 
this problem resolved.  Blindness is not an excuse for malpractice.  It 
seems to me that you would have an obligation to make sure you have some way 
of reading documents, no matter the form.  If that requires a human reader, 
then that is your obligation.
You can't automatically expect that everything will be handed to you in an 
accessible form, particularly in discovery where it is not unheard of for 
the opposing side to attempt to hide documents even from a sighted attorney. 
You must be able to read everything, no matter its form.  Personally, I 
believe the best way of accomplishing this is with a reader, because, though 
you can try to "force" the other side to have to provide things in 
accessible form, what if they don't?  The responsibility for the well being 
of your client is still ultimately yours.

Sarah





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello Denise,
> I truly appreciate your suggestion and am in the process of doing that,
> however, in the meantime, my client has already suffered one adverse 
> ruling
> based on a handwritten image scanned into a computer with no readily
> identifiable title. Also, as I have already mentioned, all of their PDF
> files are in accessible whereas most every other PDF image I receive is
> accessible. It is definitely in whatever method of scanning that they are
> using.
> I will keep you posted.
> Cordially,
> John
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of denise avant
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:02 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
> Hello,
> I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office.
> However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels, and I
> have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or regular adobe.
> Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant Attorney Generals 
> are
> very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file. But this is done on an
> individual basis. I'm not certain there is an overall policy by the 
> offices
> itself to do that. Things may be different at the federal level as the
> various prosecutors and defense as well as the courts have communicated in
> an electronic manner for years. If you have not already done so, perhaps 
> you
> should find someone in the public defenders office and other offices to
> explain why your assistive technology cannot handle their documents.
> Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an 
> attempt
> to educate and see if this gets the job done.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Ross Doerr
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>    Hi John:
> I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience in a
> challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse party. 
> The
> few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue with the
> State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them (usually the 
> attorney
> general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem for
> me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the
> unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be used
> as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
> What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on their
> printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF
> that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader. With all 
> due
> respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all
> PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you
> what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that
> assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive
> technology can handle it from there.
> Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like,
> because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before. This issue is
> fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list
> posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it
> all.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>> problem.
>> When
>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the 
>> default
>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>> discover
>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the 
>> form
>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>> Cordially,
>> John
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.
>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey
>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable
>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with
>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you
>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn
> er.com
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2788 - Release Date: 04/03/10
> 18:32:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritec
> h.net
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
> signature
> database 4997 (20100403) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
> signature
> database 4997 (20100403) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcglobal.net 



From joramsey at cox.net  Mon Apr  5 09:12:56 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 05:12:56 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <015501cad45e$18a3e910$6701a8c0@computer2>
Message-ID: <F9E195FA684A48B1BC006775D658CA6A@noneeb869fea9a>

Actually Sarah,
This absolutely does not fall under malpractice in Florida and me not being
qualified to practice? I am not going to dignify that with a response.

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Sarah Clark
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 9:20 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


Hi John,
Your client has suffered as a result of a mistake due to your blindness? 
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but I would conclude that you are not qualified to

be a lawyer, representing clients, until you figure out a solution to get 
this problem resolved.  Blindness is not an excuse for malpractice.  It 
seems to me that you would have an obligation to make sure you have some way

of reading documents, no matter the form.  If that requires a human reader, 
then that is your obligation.
You can't automatically expect that everything will be handed to you in an 
accessible form, particularly in discovery where it is not unheard of for 
the opposing side to attempt to hide documents even from a sighted attorney.

You must be able to read everything, no matter its form.  Personally, I 
believe the best way of accomplishing this is with a reader, because, though

you can try to "force" the other side to have to provide things in 
accessible form, what if they don't?  The responsibility for the well being 
of your client is still ultimately yours.

Sarah





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello Denise,
> I truly appreciate your suggestion and am in the process of doing 
> that, however, in the meantime, my client has already suffered one 
> adverse ruling based on a handwritten image scanned into a computer 
> with no readily identifiable title. Also, as I have already mentioned, 
> all of their PDF files are in accessible whereas most every other PDF 
> image I receive is accessible. It is definitely in whatever method of 
> scanning that they are using.
> I will keep you posted.
> Cordially,
> John
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of denise avant
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:02 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
> Hello,
> I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office. 
> However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels, 
> and I have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or 
> regular adobe. Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant 
> Attorney Generals are very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file. 
> But this is done on an individual basis. I'm not certain there is an 
> overall policy by the offices
> itself to do that. Things may be different at the federal level as the
> various prosecutors and defense as well as the courts have communicated in
> an electronic manner for years. If you have not already done so, perhaps 
> you
> should find someone in the public defenders office and other offices to
> explain why your assistive technology cannot handle their documents.
> Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an 
> attempt
> to educate and see if this gets the job done.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of Ross Doerr
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>    Hi John:
> I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience 
> in a challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse 
> party. The few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue 
> with the State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them 
> (usually the attorney
> general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem for
> me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the
> unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be used
> as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
> What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on their
> printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF
> that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader. With all 
> due
> respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all
> PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you
> what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that
> assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive
> technology can handle it from there.
> Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like,
> because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before. This issue is
> fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list
> posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it
> all.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a 
>> problem. When
>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the 
>> default
>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>> discover
>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the 
>> form
>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>> Cordially,
>> John
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil 
>> liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, 
>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are 
>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to 
>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 
>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
>> email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances 
>> beyond our control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40ro
> adrunn
> er.com
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> ----
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2788 - Release Date: 
> 04/03/10 18:32:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw: 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40am
> eritec
> h.net
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
> signature
> database 4997 (20100403) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
> signature
> database 4997 (20100403) __________
>
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From joramsey at cox.net  Mon Apr  5 09:48:13 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 05:48:13 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
Message-ID: <23760EA6C90045189DC5AC0C96C2BB6A@noneeb869fea9a>

I thought my dilemma was made clear, however, Mrs. Clark's reply caused me
to clarify. The discovery here in Florida is now "electronic" due to the
legislature mandating that all State Offices go paperless. Also, Florida has
one of the most "open" discovery laws in the nation and we do not as Mrs.
Clark alleges "try to hide things" as a general matter because that would be
grounds for sanctions under our discover rules and also constitute grounds
for appeal.
To return to the original topic, the PDF files are inaccessible to JAWS and
are also not readily identifiable by name. If I am following Mrs. Clark's
thinking, any blind person who has been licensed to practice law is not
qualified to practice law if they do not have a full time reader. This is
just my personal opinion, but wasn't that the same logic that prompted the
congress to enact the ADA in the first place?
Cordially,
John
 

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453


This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 

 

From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Mon Apr  5 14:36:15 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 07:36:15 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <4661C33BFC4244589A4D50223A62DA36@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <000901cad39a$c60e4a10$522ade30$@net>
	<4661C33BFC4244589A4D50223A62DA36@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6D07@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

I am not sure what the precise equipment specifics are in our office,
but all of our paper disclosure is scanned into PDF to be loaded into
our e-files.  Our program for PDF (I think we have Acrobat 9, at least
on the reading end of it) contains its own "reader" program - it sounds
a bit funny, but it reads everything for me, without my having to use
the WinZoom narrator on it.  As I said, I do not know the specifics, but
given that we are a public defender office, it can't be terribly
expensive....

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of John Ramsey
Sent: Sunday, 04 April, 2010 5:20 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery

Hello Denise,
I truly appreciate your suggestion and am in the process of doing that,
however, in the meantime, my client has already suffered one adverse
ruling
based on a handwritten image scanned into a computer with no readily
identifiable title. Also, as I have already mentioned, all of their PDF
files are in accessible whereas most every other PDF image I receive is
accessible. It is definitely in whatever method of scanning that they
are
using.
I will keep you posted.
Cordially,
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication
in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated
printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please
be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal
and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the
Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that
email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
Behalf Of denise avant
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:02 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


Hello,
I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office.
However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels, and
I
have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or regular adobe.
Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant Attorney Generals
are
very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file. But this is done on an
individual basis. I'm not certain there is an overall policy by the
offices
itself to do that. Things may be different at the federal level as the
various prosecutors and defense as well as the courts have communicated
in
an electronic manner for years. If you have not already done so, perhaps
you
should find someone in the public defenders office and other offices to
explain why your assistive technology cannot handle their documents.
Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an
attempt
to educate and see if this gets the job done.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
Behalf Of Ross Doerr
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery

    Hi John:
I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience in
a 
challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse party.
The
few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue with the 
State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them (usually the
attorney 
general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem
for 
me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and
the 
unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be
used 
as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on
their 
printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real
PDF 
that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader. With all
due
respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all 
PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given
you 
what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere
that 
assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive 
technology can handle it from there.
Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like,

because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before. This issue
is
fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list 
posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of
it 
all.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a 
> problem.
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with
documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the
default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the
form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.

> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond
our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40road
runn
er.com


------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
----



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2788 - Release Date: 04/03/10

18:32:00


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itec
h.net
 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
signature
database 4997 (20100403) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
signature
database 4997 (20100403) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com
 

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blindlaw:
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pima.gov




From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr  5 22:24:55 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 17:24:55 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
References: <F9E195FA684A48B1BC006775D658CA6A@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <BF817F5DA02A4E0E9C831A6DF0C54CDE@Rob>

John and all.
I totally agree with John and disagree with Sarah. One must gather all the 
relevant facts of a situation before passing judgment on a colleague's 
professional competency. The old adage "but for the grace of the gods go I" 
is a reminder to us all, myself included. Have a blessed day
Rob Tabor
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 4:12 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Actually Sarah,
> This absolutely does not fall under malpractice in Florida and me not 
> being
> qualified to practice? I am not going to dignify that with a response.
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sarah Clark
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 9:20 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
> Hi John,
> Your client has suffered as a result of a mistake due to your blindness?
> I'm sorry to sound harsh, but I would conclude that you are not qualified 
> to
>
> be a lawyer, representing clients, until you figure out a solution to get
> this problem resolved.  Blindness is not an excuse for malpractice.  It
> seems to me that you would have an obligation to make sure you have some 
> way
>
> of reading documents, no matter the form.  If that requires a human 
> reader,
> then that is your obligation.
> You can't automatically expect that everything will be handed to you in an
> accessible form, particularly in discovery where it is not unheard of for
> the opposing side to attempt to hide documents even from a sighted 
> attorney.
>
> You must be able to read everything, no matter its form.  Personally, I
> believe the best way of accomplishing this is with a reader, because, 
> though
>
> you can try to "force" the other side to have to provide things in
> accessible form, what if they don't?  The responsibility for the well 
> being
> of your client is still ultimately yours.
>
> Sarah
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 5:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
>> Hello Denise,
>> I truly appreciate your suggestion and am in the process of doing
>> that, however, in the meantime, my client has already suffered one
>> adverse ruling based on a handwritten image scanned into a computer
>> with no readily identifiable title. Also, as I have already mentioned,
>> all of their PDF files are in accessible whereas most every other PDF
>> image I receive is accessible. It is definitely in whatever method of
>> scanning that they are using.
>> I will keep you posted.
>> Cordially,
>> John
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.
>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey
>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable
>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with
>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you
>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of denise avant
>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:02 PM
>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>> I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office.
>> However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels,
>> and I have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or
>> regular adobe. Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant
>> Attorney Generals are very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file.
>> But this is done on an individual basis. I'm not certain there is an
>> overall policy by the offices
>> itself to do that. Things may be different at the federal level as the
>> various prosecutors and defense as well as the courts have communicated 
>> in
>> an electronic manner for years. If you have not already done so, perhaps
>> you
>> should find someone in the public defenders office and other offices to
>> explain why your assistive technology cannot handle their documents.
>> Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an
>> attempt
>> to educate and see if this gets the job done.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Ross Doerr
>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>    Hi John:
>> I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience
>> in a challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse
>> party. The few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue
>> with the State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them
>> (usually the attorney
>> general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem 
>> for
>> me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the
>> unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be 
>> used
>> as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
>> What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on 
>> their
>> printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF
>> that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader. With all
>> due
>> respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all
>> PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you
>> what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that
>> assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive
>> technology can handle it from there.
>> Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like,
>> because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before. This issue is
>> fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list
>> posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it
>> all.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>>> problem. When
>>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the
>>> default
>>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>>> discover
>>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the
>>> form
>>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>>> Cordially,
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>>
>>> P.O. Box 6063
>>>
>>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>>
>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>>
>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>>
>>>
>>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil
>>> liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
>>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that
>>> email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances
>>> beyond our control.  Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40ro
>> adrunn
>> er.com
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------
>> ----
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2788 - Release Date:
>> 04/03/10 18:32:00
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40am
>> eritec
>> h.net
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 4997 (20100403) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 4997 (20100403) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c
>> ox.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgl
> obal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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From joramsey at cox.net  Tue Apr  6 21:29:40 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 17:29:40 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Law Students
Message-ID: <BC4F1911A4E04941BAAF2157EE5AF2C8@noneeb869fea9a>

This is most likely directed to the law students on the list, however, I am
looking for all of the famous accessibility cases. I need citations and what
they stood for.

Feel free to email me off list.

Thanks,

John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453


This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 

 

From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Thu Apr  8 21:26:08 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:26:08 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] tenBroek Syposium and NABL Meeting
Message-ID: <0544F08A747545BE8B255F39A778BAB7@labarre>

Greetings, today is the last day that you can register for the National Association of  Blind Lawyers Spring meeting and the Jacobus tenBroek Law Syposium.  The information is below.  If you register for the tenBroek Syposium, the NABL meeting is an additional $25.00 and it is $50.00 without tenBroek registration.  Although the deadline is today, I am confident that we can still work you in if you register tomorrow.  
*********
Registration Deadline is April 8, 2010

 

2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium

 

Equality, Difference, and the Right to Live in the World

 

A Cross-Disability Symposium

 

April 15-16, 2010

at the

National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute

Baltimore, Maryland

 

Join many of the nation's leading disability rights advocates and scholars in a cross-disability consideration of the concepts of equality and difference as they relate to people with disabilities in

 

·        ADA/Rehabilitation Act

·        class actions & litigation issues

·        employment, 

·        education, 

·        medical treatment, and 

·        access to technology

 

 

KEYNOTE SPEAKERS:

 

Tom Perez

United States Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights 

 

Tony Coelho, Chairman of the Board

American Association of People with Disabilities

 

With an expanded format to incorporate workshops, the 2010 symposium will provide more time for discussion, collaboration, and networking with lawyers and other advocates who represent clients with a broad range of disabilities.

 

2010 plenary session speakers will be:

 

  a.. Adrienne Asch, Director, Center for Ethics, Yeshiva University 
  b.. Dan Brock, Director, Division of Medical Ethics, Harvard Medical School 
  c.. Richard Brown, Chief Judge, Wisconsin Court of Appeals 
  d.. David Ferleger, Esquire, Law Office of David Ferleger 
  e.. Dan Goldstein, Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP 
  f.. Andrew Imparato, President and CEO, American Association of People with Disabilities 
  g.. Leslie Seid Margolis, Managing Attorney, Education Unit, Maryland Disability Law Center 
  h.. Mark Weber, Vincent dePaul Professor of Law, DePaul University College of Law
 

2010 workshop facilitators will be:

 

  a.. Charles Brown, Director, Volunteer Lawyers for the Blind, American Action Fund for Blind Children and Adults 
  b.. Ira Burnim, Legal Director, Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law 
  c.. Claudia Center, Senior Staff Attorney, The Legal Aid Society Employment Law Center 
  d.. Marc Charmatz, Senior Attorney, National Association of the Deaf 
  e.. Robert Dinerstein, Professor of Law and Director of Clinical Programs,  American University Washington College of Law 
  f.. Eve Hill, Senior Vice President, Burton Blatt Institute 
  g.. Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP 
  h.. Christopher Kuczynski, Esquire, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission 
  i.. Jennifer Mathis, Deputy Legal Director, Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law 
  j.. Ruby Moore, Executive Director, Georgia Advocacy Office, Inc. 
  k.. Ari Ne'eman, President, Autistic Self-Advocacy Network 
  l.. Steven Schwartz, Executive Director, Center for Public Representation
 

Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights Tom Perez and Tony Coelho, Chairman of the Board for the American Association of People with Disabilities, will be the keynote speakers.

 

Documentation for CLE credits will be provided.

 

Registration fee: $175

Student registration fee: $25

 

A limited number of scholarships to cover the registration fee will be available to individuals with demonstrated financial need.

 

To learn more about the symposium and symposium sponsorship opportunities, view the agenda, and register online, please visit http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Law_Symposium.asp.  You may also download from this Web site a registration form to mail or fax.  Hotel information is also available on the symposium Web site.

 

For additional information, contact:

 

Lou Ann Blake, JD

Law Symposium Coordinator

Jacobus tenBroek Library

Jernigan Institute

NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND

200 East Wells Street

at Jernigan Place

Baltimore, Maryland 21230

Telephone: 410-659-9314, ext. 2221

E-mail: lblake at nfb.org

 

 

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND LAWYERS

2010 SPRING MEETING

 

Do you have all your continuing legal education credits?  Do you want to learn about disability law and issues impacting blind lawyers specifically?

 

Join the National Association of Blind Lawyers (NABL) members for an interactive Seminar in connection with the 2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium on Friday April 16th at 2:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.  Ever wondered how to deal with interviewing, hiring, and firing employees including readers?  Want to talk about nuts and bolts like handling exhibits?

 

If you sign up for both the seminar and the tenBroek Symposium which takes place on April 15th and the morning of the 16th, you will receive a discount on the NABL seminar.  Both the Symposium and the Seminar will take place at the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, 200 East Wells St. at Jernigan Place in Baltimore, Maryland.  

 

This Seminar is open to all. Seminar topics will include:

 

1. An update on recent case law affecting blind Americans;

2. Learning Braille and losing vision after becoming a lawyer;

3. Tips and tricks - trial techniques, examination of case files and other documents, and   

    supervision of attorneys and other staff; 

4. Research tools accessible to blind attorneys; and 

5. Interviewing, selecting, and terminating staff. 

 

Admission to the NABL Seminar is $25 for those who have registered for the tenBroek Symposium and $50 for those who have not.  For students, admission is free.  Lunch will be provided.  For those seeking CLE, certificates will be available.  

 

Don't miss this exciting opportunity to learn from and interact with fellow blind and visually impaired attorneys, law students and others.  

 

For further information, or to register, contact Scott LaBarre, President, NABL at slabarre at labarrelaw.com or 303 504-5979.  You should register by April 8th or the cost of the seminar will increase by $15.00.

 

 
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.

From Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV  Fri Apr  9 19:19:03 2010
From: Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV (Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR))
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:19:03 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
Message-ID: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>

Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about a
campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
appeals.

 

/s/

 

 

Bennett Prows, J.D.


From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 19:42:26 2010
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 15:42:26 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
Message-ID: <4bbf8271.0e0bca0a.110d.470b@mx.google.com>

That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
Beth


From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Fri Apr  9 20:16:00 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 16:16:00 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>
References: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <E096AC5FC6C646A9B573D54CA56BC2B4@StevePC>

Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge would be 
great!
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV>
To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about a
> campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
> justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
> appeals.
>
>
>
> /s/
>
>
>
>
>
> Bennett Prows, J.D.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 04/09/10 
06:32:00
-------------- next part --------------

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 04/09/10 06:32:00

From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Fri Apr  9 20:31:28 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:31:28 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <028201cad823$a23e5750$6601a8c0@server>

Hello Bennett,
I completely agree but what do you think we might be able to do.  When I was 
in law school at the University of Chicago they were quite proud of Judge 
Tatel, so it is possible that the President is also familiar with him since 
he taught there.  I look forward to hearing your ideas.
Warmest regards,
Dennis Clark

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV>
To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 12:19 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about a
> campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
> justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
> appeals.
>
>
>
> /s/
>
>
>
>
>
> Bennett Prows, J.D.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net 



From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com  Fri Apr  9 21:33:28 2010
From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:33:28 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <4bbf8271.0e0bca0a.110d.470b@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <709E6C45FDB94ADB9036CCC018784837@valtd>

What is Judge Tatel's judicial philosophy?  Need to know that before I join 
the campaign.

Sincerely,
Olusegun
Denver, Colorado 



From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Fri Apr  9 21:59:26 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:59:26 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>
	<E096AC5FC6C646A9B573D54CA56BC2B4@StevePC>
Message-ID: <E1331CB8FF9E4DD183188151E67A3752@labarre>

Tatel can best be described as a moderate leaning slightly to the left.  He 
is a Clinton appointee to the United States Court of Appeals for the 
District of Columbia Circuit.  He is the only blind judge on the Court of 
Appeals and the only possible nominee who has the requisite experience to 
serve on the Court and who happens to be blind.  Justice Stevens is a 
well-known liberal and an appointment of another liberal by Obama will not 
change the make-up of the Court in this instance.  Because of the reagan and 
two Bush appointments, the Court is still decidedly on the conservative 
side.  So, I most definitely do not agree that the next appointment should 
be a conservative one.  Generally, the terms "conservative" and "liberal" 
as applied to these justices is not really accurate.  They are all judicial 
activists who bring their political philosophy to the cases before them.

Any way to bring this back to matters relevant to this list, I think it 
would be a tremendous victory for our community if a blind justice were 
appointed.  Judge Tatel would represent us well and set an excellent example 
of the competence we are able to achieve.  It'll be interesting to see what 
happens from here.  Here is a short bio on Judge Tatel from the Court's 
website.

Judge Tatel was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals in October 
1994. He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1963 and the 
University of Chicago Law School in 1966. Following law school, he taught 
for a year at the University of Michigan Law School and then went into 
private practice with the firm of Sidley & Austin in Chicago. From 1969 to 
1970, he served as Director of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for Civil 
Rights Under Law, then returned to Sidley & Austin until 1972, when he 
became Director of the National Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under 
Law in Washington, D.C. From 1974 to 1977, he returned to private practice 
as associate and partner with Hogan & Hartson, where he headed the firm's 
Community Services Department. He also served as General Counsel for the 
newly created Legal Services Corporation from 1975 to 1976. In 1977, Judge 
Tatel became the Director of the Office for Civil Rights, U.S. Department of 
Health, Education and Welfare. He returned to Hogan & Hartson in 1979, where 
he headed the firm's education group until his appointment to the D.C. 
Circuit.


Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge would be
> great!
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV>
> To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>> Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about a
>> campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
>> justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
>> appeals.
>>
>>
>>
>> /s/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bennett Prows, J.D.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 04/09/10
> 06:32:00
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 04/09/10 
06:32:00



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Fri Apr  9 22:02:43 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 16:02:43 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <4bbf8271.0e0bca0a.110d.470b@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <40409203B82B4DFCAA96E5D0193186CB@labarre>

Now that I look at Tatel's age, that may be the biggest barrier against him. 
Presidents like to appoint judges who are a bit younger so that the impact 
of the appointment will last longer.  So, if I were a betting man, which I 
am at times, President Obama will likely not appoint Tatel.  He is likely to 
appoint someone in their late 40's to mid 50's.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com  Fri Apr  9 22:39:53 2010
From: rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:39:53 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <40409203B82B4DFCAA96E5D0193186CB@labarre>
References: <4bbf8271.0e0bca0a.110d.470b@mx.google.com>
	<40409203B82B4DFCAA96E5D0193186CB@labarre>
Message-ID: <666BB51359C24FE1B7010985B4743766@RThomas>

Yes; and is he leftist enough or socialist enough to satisfy our President?


Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:03 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Now that I look at Tatel's age, that may be the biggest barrier against him.

Presidents like to appoint judges who are a bit younger so that the impact 
of the appointment will last longer.  So, if I were a betting man, which I 
am at times, President Obama will likely not appoint Tatel.  He is likely to

appoint someone in their late 40's to mid 50's.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged

information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com,

and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments

are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarre
law.com
> 



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
rm.com





From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Fri Apr  9 23:55:39 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 19:55:39 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <E1331CB8FF9E4DD183188151E67A3752@labarre>
References: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>
	<E096AC5FC6C646A9B573D54CA56BC2B4@StevePC>
	<E1331CB8FF9E4DD183188151E67A3752@labarre>
Message-ID: <63ADAF121FFF4D95A9D1477B0FCE9D0A@StevePC>

I can accept that.  I'm a conservative, but wouldn't it be something if we 
had a supreme court justice who is blind!!

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott C. LaBarre" <slabarre at labarrelaw.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


Tatel can best be described as a moderate leaning slightly to the left.  He
is a Clinton appointee to the United States Court of Appeals for the
District of Columbia Circuit.  He is the only blind judge on the Court of
Appeals and the only possible nominee who has the requisite experience to
serve on the Court and who happens to be blind.  Justice Stevens is a
well-known liberal and an appointment of another liberal by Obama will not
change the make-up of the Court in this instance.  Because of the reagan and
two Bush appointments, the Court is still decidedly on the conservative
side.  So, I most definitely do not agree that the next appointment should
be a conservative one.  Generally, the terms "conservative" and "liberal"
as applied to these justices is not really accurate.  They are all judicial
activists who bring their political philosophy to the cases before them.

Any way to bring this back to matters relevant to this list, I think it
would be a tremendous victory for our community if a blind justice were
appointed.  Judge Tatel would represent us well and set an excellent example
of the competence we are able to achieve.  It'll be interesting to see what
happens from here.  Here is a short bio on Judge Tatel from the Court's
website.

Judge Tatel was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals in October
1994. He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1963 and the
University of Chicago Law School in 1966. Following law school, he taught
for a year at the University of Michigan Law School and then went into
private practice with the firm of Sidley & Austin in Chicago. From 1969 to
1970, he served as Director of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for Civil
Rights Under Law, then returned to Sidley & Austin until 1972, when he
became Director of the National Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under
Law in Washington, D.C. From 1974 to 1977, he returned to private practice
as associate and partner with Hogan & Hartson, where he headed the firm's
Community Services Department. He also served as General Counsel for the
newly created Legal Services Corporation from 1975 to 1976. In 1977, Judge
Tatel became the Director of the Office for Civil Rights, U.S. Department of
Health, Education and Welfare. He returned to Hogan & Hartson in 1979, where
he headed the firm's education group until his appointment to the D.C.
Circuit.


Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read,
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com,
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge would be
> great!
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV>
> To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>> Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about a
>> campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
>> justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
>> appeals.
>>
>>
>>
>> /s/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bennett Prows, J.D.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 04/09/10
> 06:32:00
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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06:32:00



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> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
>



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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2801 - Release Date: 04/09/10 
18:32:00
-------------- next part --------------

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From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Sat Apr 10 00:25:01 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 19:25:01 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>
	<E096AC5FC6C646A9B573D54CA56BC2B4@StevePC>
Message-ID: <494C3A676B3B463BB9B7319AA60B0973@Rob>

Steve, I certainly share your hopes and sentiments but I doubt if Tatel has 
a conservative judicial philosophy or espouses strict constructionist views 
of the US Constitution, although I don't know much about this judge. Even if 
he does, I doubt he would be nominated in this climate on Penn Avenue and 
ratified by the Senate as now constituted. Nice thought, though.
Carry on
Rob Tabor
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge would be
> great!
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV>
> To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>> Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about a
>> campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
>> justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
>> appeals.
>>
>>
>>
>> /s/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bennett Prows, J.D.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 04/09/10
> 06:32:00
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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06:32:00



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglobal.net
> 



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Sat Apr 10 00:53:32 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 20:53:32 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <666BB51359C24FE1B7010985B4743766@RThomas>
Message-ID: <0FBC5289304C48A6846E170A45B52F42@Rufus>

Well, shoot.  If you're looking at it that way, no one will ever be good
enough!  Haha.

Joe Orozco

“Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all.”--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 6:40 PM
To: 'Scott C. LaBarre'; 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Yes; and is he leftist enough or socialist enough to satisfy 
our President?


Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:03 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Now that I look at Tatel's age, that may be the biggest barrier 
against him.

Presidents like to appoint judges who are a bit younger so that 
the impact 
of the appointment will last longer.  So, if I were a betting 
man, which I 
am at times, President Obama will likely not appoint Tatel.  He 
is likely to

appoint someone in their late 40's to mid 50's.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential 
and privileged

information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this 
message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or 
slabarre at labarrelaw.com,

and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and 
any attachments

are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabar
re%40labarre
law.com
> 



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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthoma
s%40rjtlawfi
rm.com




_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 5014 (20100409) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5014 (20100409) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From joramsey at cox.net  Sat Apr 10 01:06:03 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:06:03 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <666BB51359C24FE1B7010985B4743766@RThomas>
Message-ID: <E39CFC5D2277477CB4A8AB2CE655C3D0@noneeb869fea9a>

What makes anyone on this list think that this Judge is on the president's
list?

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 6:40 PM
To: 'Scott C. LaBarre'; 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


Yes; and is he leftist enough or socialist enough to satisfy our President?


Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:03 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Now that I look at Tatel's age, that may be the biggest barrier against him.

Presidents like to appoint judges who are a bit younger so that the impact 
of the appointment will last longer.  So, if I were a betting man, which I 
am at times, President Obama will likely not appoint Tatel.  He is likely to

appoint someone in their late 40's to mid 50's.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged

information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com,

and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments

are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarre
law.com
> 



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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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rm.com




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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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From dfrye at nfb.org  Sat Apr 10 02:32:02 2010
From: dfrye at nfb.org (Dan Frye)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 22:32:02 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
Message-ID: <E1O0QUL-0007jk-KP@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Of course, it is interesting to note that several Supreme Court 
Justices who have served have been blind later in their careers.  
I don't think that they truly self-identified as such, except 
possibly for Justice Stone, but several with decided vision 
impairments have served in this capacity.  I offer this just for 
historical interest.

With Kind Regards,

Daniel B.  Frye
Office: (410) 659-9314, Ext 2208
Mobile: (410) 241-7006
Note: This message has been issued remotely from the BrailleNote.

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott C.  LaBarre" <slabarre at labarrelaw.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:59:26 -0600
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Tatel can best be described as a moderate leaning slightly to the 
left.  He
is a Clinton appointee to the United States Court of Appeals for 
the
District of Columbia Circuit.  He is the only blind judge on the 
Court of
Appeals and the only possible nominee who has the requisite 
experience to
serve on the Court and who happens to be blind.  Justice Stevens 
is a
well-known liberal and an appointment of another liberal by Obama 
will not
change the make-up of the Court in this instance.  Because of the 
reagan and
two Bush appointments, the Court is still decidedly on the 
conservative
side.  So, I most definitely do not agree that the next 
appointment should
be a conservative one.  Generally, the terms "conservative" and 
"liberal"
as applied to these justices is not really accurate.  They are 
all judicial
activists who bring their political philosophy to the cases 
before them.

Any way to bring this back to matters relevant to this list, I 
think it
would be a tremendous victory for our community if a blind 
justice were
appointed.  Judge Tatel would represent us well and set an 
excellent example
of the competence we are able to achieve.  It'll be interesting 
to see what
happens from here.  Here is a short bio on Judge Tatel from the 
Court's
website.

Judge Tatel was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals 
in October
1994.  He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1963 and 
the
University of Chicago Law School in 1966.  Following law school, 
he taught
for a year at the University of Michigan Law School and then went 
into
private practice with the firm of Sidley & Austin in Chicago.  
From 1969 to
1970, he served as Director of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for 
Civil
Rights Under Law, then returned to Sidley & Austin until 1972, 
when he
became Director of the National Lawyers' Committee for Civil 
Rights Under
Law in Washington, D.C.  From 1974 to 1977, he returned to 
private practice
as associate and partner with Hogan & Hartson, where he headed 
the firm's
Community Services Department.  He also served as General Counsel 
for the
newly created Legal Services Corporation from 1975 to 1976.  In 
1977, Judge
Tatel became the Director of the Office for Civil Rights, U.S.  
Department of
Health, Education and Welfare.  He returned to Hogan & Hartson in 
1979, where
he headed the firm's education group until his appointment to the 
D.C.
Circuit.


Scott C.  LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste.  918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and 
privileged
information.  If you are not the designated recipient, you may 
not read,
copy, distribute or retain this message.  If you received this 
message in
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or 
slabarre at labarrelaw.com,
and destroy and delete it from your system.  This message and any 
attachments
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C.  §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve P.  Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


 Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge 
would be
 great!
 Steve
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV
 To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
 Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


 Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about 
a
 campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
 justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
 appeals.



 /s/





 Bennett Prows, J.D.

 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.
deeley%40insightbb.com


 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------



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 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 
04/09/10
 06:32:00



-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------



No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 
04/09/10
06:32:00



-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------


 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
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e%40labarrelaw.com




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for blindlaw:
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0nfb.org


From k7uij at panix.com  Sat Apr 10 03:00:00 2010
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 20:00:00 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <4bbf8271.0e0bca0a.110d.470b@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <65CC29A259D0480998A25CE5D9584173@owner1e06aeb63>

If we're going down *that* road, how about a blind, native-American, 
Buddhist, woman, lesbian, conservative judge? (har)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com 



From souljourner at sbcglobal.net  Sat Apr 10 03:57:23 2010
From: souljourner at sbcglobal.net (Susan Tabor)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:57:23 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <E1O0QUL-0007jk-KP@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1O0QUL-0007jk-KP@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000301cad861$ed75d430$c8617c90$@net>

It would be great to have a blind judge on the U.S. Supreme Court. I will
miss Judge Stevens very much.

Where can I get information about blind Supreme Court justices who have
become blind while either serving on the Supreme Court or at another time in
their lives? Thanks!
Best Regards,
Susan Tabor, M.S.W., M.P.S.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Dan Frye
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:32 PM
To: Scott C. LaBarre; NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Of course, it is interesting to note that several Supreme Court 
Justices who have served have been blind later in their careers.  
I don't think that they truly self-identified as such, except 
possibly for Justice Stone, but several with decided vision 
impairments have served in this capacity.  I offer this just for 
historical interest.

With Kind Regards,

Daniel B.  Frye
Office: (410) 659-9314, Ext 2208
Mobile: (410) 241-7006
Note: This message has been issued remotely from the BrailleNote.

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott C.  LaBarre" <slabarre at labarrelaw.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:59:26 -0600
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Tatel can best be described as a moderate leaning slightly to the 
left.  He
is a Clinton appointee to the United States Court of Appeals for 
the
District of Columbia Circuit.  He is the only blind judge on the 
Court of
Appeals and the only possible nominee who has the requisite 
experience to
serve on the Court and who happens to be blind.  Justice Stevens 
is a
well-known liberal and an appointment of another liberal by Obama 
will not
change the make-up of the Court in this instance.  Because of the 
reagan and
two Bush appointments, the Court is still decidedly on the 
conservative
side.  So, I most definitely do not agree that the next 
appointment should
be a conservative one.  Generally, the terms "conservative" and 
"liberal"
as applied to these justices is not really accurate.  They are 
all judicial
activists who bring their political philosophy to the cases 
before them.

Any way to bring this back to matters relevant to this list, I 
think it
would be a tremendous victory for our community if a blind 
justice were
appointed.  Judge Tatel would represent us well and set an 
excellent example
of the competence we are able to achieve.  It'll be interesting 
to see what
happens from here.  Here is a short bio on Judge Tatel from the 
Court's
website.

Judge Tatel was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals 
in October
1994.  He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1963 and 
the
University of Chicago Law School in 1966.  Following law school, 
he taught
for a year at the University of Michigan Law School and then went 
into
private practice with the firm of Sidley & Austin in Chicago.  
>From 1969 to
1970, he served as Director of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for 
Civil
Rights Under Law, then returned to Sidley & Austin until 1972, 
when he
became Director of the National Lawyers' Committee for Civil 
Rights Under
Law in Washington, D.C.  From 1974 to 1977, he returned to 
private practice
as associate and partner with Hogan & Hartson, where he headed 
the firm's
Community Services Department.  He also served as General Counsel 
for the
newly created Legal Services Corporation from 1975 to 1976.  In 
1977, Judge
Tatel became the Director of the Office for Civil Rights, U.S.  
Department of
Health, Education and Welfare.  He returned to Hogan & Hartson in 
1979, where
he headed the firm's education group until his appointment to the 
D.C.
Circuit.


Scott C.  LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste.  918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and 
privileged
information.  If you are not the designated recipient, you may 
not read,
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message in
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slabarre at labarrelaw.com,
and destroy and delete it from your system.  This message and any 
attachments
are covered by the Electronic
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve P.  Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


 Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge 
would be
 great!
 Steve
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV
 To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
 Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


 Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about 
a
 campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
 justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
 appeals.



 /s/





 Bennett Prows, J.D.

 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.
deeley%40insightbb.com


 
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lobal.net



From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Sat Apr 10 04:05:35 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:05:35 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <E39CFC5D2277477CB4A8AB2CE655C3D0@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <5881A572C15543258676A3042E51C61F@labarre>

The major reason why Judge Tatel can be considered a candidate is that he 
serves on the DC Circuit Court of Appeals which is regarded by most as the 
second highest court in the land.  Judge Tatel is extremely well respected 
and would represent an historic appointment.  Additionally, I am familiar 
with some of the President's key advisors in this area and know that Judge 
Tatel would be on a list.  However, as I indicated earlier, the major strike 
against Tatel is that he is a bit older than the typical profile for any 
President making such appointments.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


What makes anyone on this list think that this Judge is on the president's
list?

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.







-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 6:40 PM
To: 'Scott C. LaBarre'; 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


Yes; and is he leftist enough or socialist enough to satisfy our President?


Respectfully,



Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com



Orange County Office

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660

T: (949) 752-0101

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:03 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Now that I look at Tatel's age, that may be the biggest barrier against him.

Presidents like to appoint judges who are a bit younger so that the impact
of the appointment will last longer.  So, if I were a betting man, which I
am at times, President Obama will likely not appoint Tatel.  He is likely to

appoint someone in their late 40's to mid 50's.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged

information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read,
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com,

and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments

are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarre
law.com
>



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From dwilson.lists at gmail.com  Sat Apr 10 04:23:49 2010
From: dwilson.lists at gmail.com (Derek Wilson)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:23:49 +0900
Subject: [blindlaw] Website Accessibility Explained in Plain Language
Message-ID: <p2w6152341004092123ue47992ccla6170f4e0fd4d122@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Have you ever wondered what website accessibility really means or
struggled to explain it to someone?  Here is a clear and simple
explanation in plain language.  Please share this with anyone who
might be interested, and remind them to support website accessibility
in Canada by signing our petition.  Here is a quote from the article:

BLOCK QUOTE BEGINS
"...various state and federal laws require state agencies to have
accessible websites for all visitors to our sites, as well as
accessible software for state employees."
END BLOCK QUOTE

Two links follow:

Link to Article That Explains Website Accessibility in Plain Language:
http://bit.ly/dr3dvQ

Link to Petition That Calls for Accessible Government of Canada Websites:
http://bit.ly/atTPSb

Cheers,
-- 
Derek Wilson
Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
Twitter: culturemate
LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com

-- 
Derek Wilson
Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
Twitter: culturemate
LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com


From cathrynisfinally at verizon.net  Sat Apr 10 05:22:20 2010
From: cathrynisfinally at verizon.net (Cathryn Bonnette)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 01:22:20 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Tax Forms and JAWS
Message-ID: <FFF04DF5D135429A9B89518BE608475A@14bd0130080a469>

            Good morning all,

 

Does anyone have a source for tax forms accessible with JAWS?  I'll also
check for an IRS source on the web, but would rather not "reinvent the
wheel" if others have solved this problem before.

 

Thanks much in advance for any help you may be able to offer.

 

"Sleepless in Washington DC" 


From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Sat Apr 10 12:05:12 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:05:12 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Website Accessibility Explained in Plain Language
In-Reply-To: <p2w6152341004092123ue47992ccla6170f4e0fd4d122@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p2w6152341004092123ue47992ccla6170f4e0fd4d122@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5EB900D6E6024A0E850A3C9871B3464C@StevePC>

That is a great article.
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Derek Wilson" <dwilson.lists at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 12:23 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] Website Accessibility Explained in Plain Language


> Hi all,
>
> Have you ever wondered what website accessibility really means or
> struggled to explain it to someone?  Here is a clear and simple
> explanation in plain language.  Please share this with anyone who
> might be interested, and remind them to support website accessibility
> in Canada by signing our petition.  Here is a quote from the article:
>
> BLOCK QUOTE BEGINS
> "...various state and federal laws require state agencies to have
> accessible websites for all visitors to our sites, as well as
> accessible software for state employees."
> END BLOCK QUOTE
>
> Two links follow:
>
> Link to Article That Explains Website Accessibility in Plain Language:
> http://bit.ly/dr3dvQ
>
> Link to Petition That Calls for Accessible Government of Canada Websites:
> http://bit.ly/atTPSb
>
> Cheers,
> -- 
> Derek Wilson
> Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
> Twitter: culturemate
> LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
> Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com
>
> -- 
> Derek Wilson
> Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
> Twitter: culturemate
> LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
> Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2801 - Release Date: 04/09/10 
18:32:00
-------------- next part --------------

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2801 - Release Date: 04/09/10 18:32:00

From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Sat Apr 10 14:10:50 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:10:50 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Website Accessibility Explained in Plain Language
In-Reply-To: <p2w6152341004092123ue47992ccla6170f4e0fd4d122@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000148289310@mailfront1.g2host.com>

What is BIT.LY?  Are these something like the "tiny" links that are sometimes used?  I'm always a little uneasy following 
a link that has an unfamiliar form.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson


On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:23:49 +0900, Derek Wilson wrote:

>Hi all,

>Have you ever wondered what website accessibility really means or
>struggled to explain it to someone?  Here is a clear and simple
>explanation in plain language.  Please share this with anyone who
>might be interested, and remind them to support website accessibility
>in Canada by signing our petition.  Here is a quote from the article:

>BLOCK QUOTE BEGINS
>"...various state and federal laws require state agencies to have
>accessible websites for all visitors to our sites, as well as
>accessible software for state employees."
>END BLOCK QUOTE

>Two links follow:

>Link to Article That Explains Website Accessibility in Plain Language:
>http://bit.ly/dr3dvQ

>Link to Petition That Calls for Accessible Government of Canada Websites:
>http://bit.ly/atTPSb

>Cheers,
>-- 
>Derek Wilson
>Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
>Twitter: culturemate
>LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
>Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com

>-- 
>Derek Wilson
>Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
>Twitter: culturemate
>LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
>Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com

>_______________________________________________
>blindlaw mailing list
>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com






From tim at timeldermusic.com  Sat Apr 10 19:16:25 2010
From: tim at timeldermusic.com (Tim Elder)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:16:25 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Tax Forms and JAWS
In-Reply-To: <FFF04DF5D135429A9B89518BE608475A@14bd0130080a469>
References: <FFF04DF5D135429A9B89518BE608475A@14bd0130080a469>
Message-ID: <6DBDD8715F1C461CB72676ACD39877F9@youra9279112e3>

Does JAWS work with Turbo Tax?  That might be one way of getting around the
tax forms. 

Regards,

Tim Elder

-----Original Message-----
From: Cathryn Bonnette [mailto:cathrynisfinally at verizon.net] 
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 10:22 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Cc: Gwaltney, Anne
Subject: [blindlaw] Tax Forms and JAWS

            Good morning all,

 

Does anyone have a source for tax forms accessible with JAWS?  I'll also
check for an IRS source on the web, but would rather not "reinvent the
wheel" if others have solved this problem before.

 

Thanks much in advance for any help you may be able to offer.

 

"Sleepless in Washington DC" 





From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 10 20:26:44 2010
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:26:44 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <000301cad861$ed75d430$c8617c90$@net>
References: <E1O0QUL-0007jk-KP@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<000301cad861$ed75d430$c8617c90$@net>
Message-ID: <j2t8c58e54a1004101326m3c5c679r9cbb4f54b1bd6d86@mail.gmail.com>

Did you guys know that Judge Tatel was elevated to the D.C Circuit to
replace the vacancy left by Ginsberg when Clinton nominated her the the
Supreme Court?  All the pundits on TV and radio that I've heard seem to
think the nominee to replace Stevens will be a woman because that will give
Obama more leeway in nominating a outlier when it comes time to replace
Ginsberg, probably in the next couple years.

How long has Judge Tatel been blind?  I haven't been able to find that out
anywhere.

Mike

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Susan Tabor <souljourner at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> It would be great to have a blind judge on the U.S. Supreme Court. I will
> miss Judge Stevens very much.
>
> Where can I get information about blind Supreme Court justices who have
> become blind while either serving on the Supreme Court or at another time
> in
> their lives? Thanks!
> Best Regards,
> Susan Tabor, M.S.W., M.P.S.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>  Behalf Of Dan Frye
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:32 PM
> To: Scott C. LaBarre; NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
> Of course, it is interesting to note that several Supreme Court
> Justices who have served have been blind later in their careers.
> I don't think that they truly self-identified as such, except
> possibly for Justice Stone, but several with decided vision
> impairments have served in this capacity.  I offer this just for
> historical interest.
>
> With Kind Regards,
>
> Daniel B.  Frye
> Office: (410) 659-9314, Ext 2208
> Mobile: (410) 241-7006
> Note: This message has been issued remotely from the BrailleNote.
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott C.  LaBarre" <slabarre at labarrelaw.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:59:26 -0600
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
> Tatel can best be described as a moderate leaning slightly to the
> left.  He
> is a Clinton appointee to the United States Court of Appeals for
> the
> District of Columbia Circuit.  He is the only blind judge on the
> Court of
> Appeals and the only possible nominee who has the requisite
> experience to
> serve on the Court and who happens to be blind.  Justice Stevens
> is a
> well-known liberal and an appointment of another liberal by Obama
> will not
> change the make-up of the Court in this instance.  Because of the
> reagan and
> two Bush appointments, the Court is still decidedly on the
> conservative
> side.  So, I most definitely do not agree that the next
> appointment should
> be a conservative one.  Generally, the terms "conservative" and
> "liberal"
> as applied to these justices is not really accurate.  They are
> all judicial
> activists who bring their political philosophy to the cases
> before them.
>
> Any way to bring this back to matters relevant to this list, I
> think it
> would be a tremendous victory for our community if a blind
> justice were
> appointed.  Judge Tatel would represent us well and set an
> excellent example
> of the competence we are able to achieve.  It'll be interesting
> to see what
> happens from here.  Here is a short bio on Judge Tatel from the
> Court's
> website.
>
> Judge Tatel was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals
> in October
> 1994.  He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1963 and
> the
> University of Chicago Law School in 1966.  Following law school,
> he taught
> for a year at the University of Michigan Law School and then went
> into
> private practice with the firm of Sidley & Austin in Chicago.
> >From 1969 to
> 1970, he served as Director of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for
> Civil
> Rights Under Law, then returned to Sidley & Austin until 1972,
> when he
> became Director of the National Lawyers' Committee for Civil
> Rights Under
> Law in Washington, D.C.  From 1974 to 1977, he returned to
> private practice
> as associate and partner with Hogan & Hartson, where he headed
> the firm's
> Community Services Department.  He also served as General Counsel
> for the
> newly created Legal Services Corporation from 1975 to 1976.  In
> 1977, Judge
> Tatel became the Director of the Office for Civil Rights, U.S.
> Department of
> Health, Education and Welfare.  He returned to Hogan & Hartson in
> 1979, where
> he headed the firm's education group until his appointment to the
> D.C.
> Circuit.
>
>
> Scott C.  LaBarre, Esq.
>
> LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
> 1660 South Albion Street, Ste.  918
> Denver, Colorado 80222
> 303 504-5979 (voice)
> 303 757-3640 (fax)
> slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
> www.labarrelaw.com (website)
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and
> privileged
> information.  If you are not the designated recipient, you may
> not read,
> copy, distribute or retain this message.  If you received this
> message in
> error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or
> slabarre at labarrelaw.com,
> and destroy and delete it from your system.  This message and any
> attachments
> are covered by the Electronic
> Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C.  §§ 2510-2521.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve P.  Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>  Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge
> would be
>  great!
>  Steve
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV
>  To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
>  Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>  Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about
> a
>  campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
>  justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
>  appeals.
>
>
>
>  /s/
>
>
>
>
>
>  Bennett Prows, J.D.
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  blindlaw mailing list
>  blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>  blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.
> deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
>
>
>  No virus found in this incoming message.
>  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>  Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date:
> 04/09/10
>  06:32:00
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date:
> 04/09/10
> 06:32:00
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>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  blindlaw mailing list
>  blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>  blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarr
> e%40labarrelaw.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dfrye%4
> 0nfb.org
>
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> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/souljourner%40sbcg
> lobal.net
>
>
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> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
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>

From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Sat Apr 10 22:58:49 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 16:58:49 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <E1O0QUL-0007jk-KP@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000301cad861$ed75d430$c8617c90$@net>
	<j2t8c58e54a1004101326m3c5c679r9cbb4f54b1bd6d86@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0F6E9751C7CA4F439B617C5F4D71833D@labarre>

I believe that he has been blind all his life and has lost the majority of 
his vision when an adult.  I believe he has some form of rp.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Fry" <mikefry79 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


Did you guys know that Judge Tatel was elevated to the D.C Circuit to
replace the vacancy left by Ginsberg when Clinton nominated her the the
Supreme Court?  All the pundits on TV and radio that I've heard seem to
think the nominee to replace Stevens will be a woman because that will give
Obama more leeway in nominating a outlier when it comes time to replace
Ginsberg, probably in the next couple years.

How long has Judge Tatel been blind?  I haven't been able to find that out
anywhere.

Mike

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Susan Tabor 
<souljourner at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> It would be great to have a blind judge on the U.S. Supreme Court. I will
> miss Judge Stevens very much.
>
> Where can I get information about blind Supreme Court justices who have
> become blind while either serving on the Supreme Court or at another time
> in
> their lives? Thanks!
> Best Regards,
> Susan Tabor, M.S.W., M.P.S.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>  Behalf Of Dan Frye
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:32 PM
> To: Scott C. LaBarre; NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
> Of course, it is interesting to note that several Supreme Court
> Justices who have served have been blind later in their careers.
> I don't think that they truly self-identified as such, except
> possibly for Justice Stone, but several with decided vision
> impairments have served in this capacity.  I offer this just for
> historical interest.
>
> With Kind Regards,
>
> Daniel B.  Frye
> Office: (410) 659-9314, Ext 2208
> Mobile: (410) 241-7006
> Note: This message has been issued remotely from the BrailleNote.
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott C.  LaBarre" <slabarre at labarrelaw.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:59:26 -0600
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
> Tatel can best be described as a moderate leaning slightly to the
> left.  He
> is a Clinton appointee to the United States Court of Appeals for
> the
> District of Columbia Circuit.  He is the only blind judge on the
> Court of
> Appeals and the only possible nominee who has the requisite
> experience to
> serve on the Court and who happens to be blind.  Justice Stevens
> is a
> well-known liberal and an appointment of another liberal by Obama
> will not
> change the make-up of the Court in this instance.  Because of the
> reagan and
> two Bush appointments, the Court is still decidedly on the
> conservative
> side.  So, I most definitely do not agree that the next
> appointment should
> be a conservative one.  Generally, the terms "conservative" and
> "liberal"
> as applied to these justices is not really accurate.  They are
> all judicial
> activists who bring their political philosophy to the cases
> before them.
>
> Any way to bring this back to matters relevant to this list, I
> think it
> would be a tremendous victory for our community if a blind
> justice were
> appointed.  Judge Tatel would represent us well and set an
> excellent example
> of the competence we are able to achieve.  It'll be interesting
> to see what
> happens from here.  Here is a short bio on Judge Tatel from the
> Court's
> website.
>
> Judge Tatel was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals
> in October
> 1994.  He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1963 and
> the
> University of Chicago Law School in 1966.  Following law school,
> he taught
> for a year at the University of Michigan Law School and then went
> into
> private practice with the firm of Sidley & Austin in Chicago.
> >From 1969 to
> 1970, he served as Director of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for
> Civil
> Rights Under Law, then returned to Sidley & Austin until 1972,
> when he
> became Director of the National Lawyers' Committee for Civil
> Rights Under
> Law in Washington, D.C.  From 1974 to 1977, he returned to
> private practice
> as associate and partner with Hogan & Hartson, where he headed
> the firm's
> Community Services Department.  He also served as General Counsel
> for the
> newly created Legal Services Corporation from 1975 to 1976.  In
> 1977, Judge
> Tatel became the Director of the Office for Civil Rights, U.S.
> Department of
> Health, Education and Welfare.  He returned to Hogan & Hartson in
> 1979, where
> he headed the firm's education group until his appointment to the
> D.C.
> Circuit.
>
>
> Scott C.  LaBarre, Esq.
>
> LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
> 1660 South Albion Street, Ste.  918
> Denver, Colorado 80222
> 303 504-5979 (voice)
> 303 757-3640 (fax)
> slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
> www.labarrelaw.com (website)
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and
> privileged
> information.  If you are not the designated recipient, you may
> not read,
> copy, distribute or retain this message.  If you received this
> message in
> error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or
> slabarre at labarrelaw.com,
> and destroy and delete it from your system.  This message and any
> attachments
> are covered by the Electronic
> Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C.  §§ 2510-2521.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve P.  Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>  Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge
> would be
>  great!
>  Steve
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV
>  To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
>  Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>  Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about
> a
>  campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
>  justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
>  appeals.
>
>
>
>  /s/
>
>
>
>
>
>  Bennett Prows, J.D.
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  blindlaw mailing list
>  blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>  blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.
> deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
>
>
>  No virus found in this incoming message.
>  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>  Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date:
> 04/09/10
>  06:32:00
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date:
> 04/09/10
> 06:32:00
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  blindlaw mailing list
>  blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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>  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>  blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarr
> e%40labarrelaw.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dfrye%4
> 0nfb.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/souljourner%40sbcg
> lobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com
>
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From b75205 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 00:42:22 2010
From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 19:42:22 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <j2t8c58e54a1004101326m3c5c679r9cbb4f54b1bd6d86@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1O0QUL-0007jk-KP@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<000301cad861$ed75d430$c8617c90$@net>
	<j2t8c58e54a1004101326m3c5c679r9cbb4f54b1bd6d86@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x2ufe5b78281004101742kd0feb2dfvb1d1e6c05b690b51@mail.gmail.com>

But if you take him off of the DC court then you would still have that court
being mostly conservatives  so there would be no  net change for the Obama
adminstration.  And you have the civil rights cases passing through that
court, first, before going to the supreme court, so he would probably be
better strategically to be where he is for the blind.  Voting rights cases
go to the DC court first and then the supreme court, things like that.  We
do not need a figurehead, we need concrete people making good decisions
everyday.

James Pepper

From dandrews at visi.com  Sun Apr 11 01:12:56 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 20:12:56 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Website Accessibility Explained in Plain  Language
In-Reply-To: <auto-000148289310@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <p2w6152341004092123ue47992ccla6170f4e0fd4d122@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000148289310@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000148315821@mailfront1.g2host.com>

Yes, it is competition to tinyurl and other url shortening services.

Dave

At 09:10 AM 4/10/2010, you wrote:
>What is BIT.LY?  Are these something like the "tiny" links that are 
>sometimes used?  I'm always a little uneasy following
>a link that has an unfamiliar form.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Steve Jacobson
>
>
>On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:23:49 +0900, Derek Wilson wrote:
>
> >Hi all,
>
> >Have you ever wondered what website accessibility really means or
> >struggled to explain it to someone?  Here is a clear and simple
> >explanation in plain language.  Please share this with anyone who
> >might be interested, and remind them to support website accessibility
> >in Canada by signing our petition.  Here is a quote from the article:
>
> >BLOCK QUOTE BEGINS
> >"...various state and federal laws require state agencies to have
> >accessible websites for all visitors to our sites, as well as
> >accessible software for state employees."
> >END BLOCK QUOTE
>
> >Two links follow:
>
> >Link to Article That Explains Website Accessibility in Plain Language:
> >http://bit.ly/dr3dvQ
>
> >Link to Petition That Calls for Accessible Government of Canada Websites:
> >http://bit.ly/atTPSb
>
> >Cheers,
> >--
> >Derek Wilson
> >Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
> >Twitter: culturemate
> >LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
> >Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com
>
> >--
> >Derek Wilson
> >Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
> >Twitter: culturemate
> >LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
> >Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com
>
> >_______________________________________________
> >blindlaw mailing list
> >blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for blindlaw:
> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jac 
> obson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindlaw mailing list
>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindlaw:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com
>
>
>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>signature database 5016 (20100410) __________
>
>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
>http://www.eset.com



From craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 17:02:12 2010
From: craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com (Craig Spencer)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 13:02:12 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server>
	<auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>

For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address 
managing the paper file for a case?

Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be 
referenced or shown to the opposing side?





From joramsey at cox.net  Sun Apr 11 18:23:06 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:23:06 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
In-Reply-To: <016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
Message-ID: <8DBC0C6B3245466EA7AFF189DC36D6F0@noneeb869fea9a>

Hello Craig,
I asked a question that is related to your issue. I wanted to know how to
handle the fact that I am not being provided "electronic documents" in an
accessible format by the State Attorney as I am required to receive
discovery.
Take care,
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Craig Spencer
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:02 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address 
managing the paper file for a case?

Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be 
referenced or shown to the opposing side?




_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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From rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com  Sun Apr 11 18:42:02 2010
From: rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 11:42:02 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
In-Reply-To: <016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server>	<auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
Message-ID: <000e01cad9a6$ad695380$083bfa80$@com>

Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your question. 

To start, the law practice should have only one file per case or per client;
otherwise, if each attorney keeps his/her own file, you have chaos. 

The best option is to have all files kept electronically, recognizing that
of course there will be times when paper documents will have to be used.

If, in your question, you are talking about preparing a Response to a
Request for Documents, unless it is a simple request or limited to a small
number of easily recognized documents, you will probably need sighted help,
especially if you have to take a large volume of documents and decide which
documents must be produced and which documents do not need to be produced.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Craig Spencer
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:02 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files

For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address 
managing the paper file for a case?

Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be 
referenced or shown to the opposing side?




_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
rm.com



From rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com  Sun Apr 11 18:45:21 2010
From: rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 11:45:21 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
In-Reply-To: <8DBC0C6B3245466EA7AFF189DC36D6F0@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<8DBC0C6B3245466EA7AFF189DC36D6F0@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <000f01cad9a7$23f783f0$6be68bd0$@com>

File a Motion with your Court for a protective order requiring that
discovery be produced in an accessible format, using the ADA is your legal
justification.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John Ramsey
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 11:23 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files

Hello Craig,
I asked a question that is related to your issue. I wanted to know how to
handle the fact that I am not being provided "electronic documents" in an
accessible format by the State Attorney as I am required to receive
discovery.
Take care,
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Craig Spencer
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:02 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address 
managing the paper file for a case?

Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be 
referenced or shown to the opposing side?




_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net


_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
rm.com



From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Sun Apr 11 19:45:37 2010
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:45:37 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server><auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
Message-ID: <469B1751CE13485CACB4DA9262D9C283@none8a46117901>

Hello Craig:
I'd say your question has two different answers to it. One for the office, 
and one for hearings and negotiations settings.
For my office , I work in an office with 9 other lawyers. I manage my 
documents in a disciplined and structured way out of necessity.
WE have only one secretary to handle all of us.
Of course, in practical terms that means we each do almost everything 
ourselves. So, when it comes to documents and dealing with other lawyers in 
my office, I make sure they all know how I do things.
I also make sure they know that, if they need a document out of one of my 
files, they need to either hand it back to me in person so that I can be the 
one to put it back, or that they can be trusted to return it to the right 
place. Failure to do so is, as you can guess, a tragedy in the making for 
me, and not them. For that reason, I am a very, very critical person when it 
comes to my fellow lawyers getting into one of my paper files.
 As you may guess, the paper file needs to be set up by me and in a way that 
is organized for me. I have only had to snarl at a fellow attorney twice in 
the past 7 years about "moving things around on me".

My case notes and telephone log, evidence notes and exhibits list all go 
onto my external hard drive and is backed up weekly to two other locations, 
one at home and one at work. Is this extra work? You bet.
Is it double coverage? You bet.
Am I covered if one or two machines of mine or the offices die? You bet.
That really isn't as much work as it sounds, I have found that the backups 
take about 15 to twenty minutes a week, so it really isn't so bad once you 
get used to doing it.
I had our office manager, who was wise enough to have all of our server 
information backed up to an off-site location daily, to move my local 
"MyDocuments" folders onto the server directly - so in point of fact, I have 
my stuff protected as much as I possibly can.
 You see, for me, the paper file is important, but my electronic file is 
more important for obvious reasons.
But everything in each of my paper files is referenced in my electronic 
file.
Paper documents and evidence that has come into the office for my files are 
either scanned and then converted to text using K-1000 or some other 
program, or is very strictly referenced in my electronic notes, such as, for 
example those god-awful doctor's and nurses notes that come in that 
handwriting that only a doctor or nurse can decode. (And they say blind 
people have bad handwriting. Sheesh)
  I then make certain that all documents are in one of two forms, depending 
upon what type of situation I am going into. By this I mean, if it is to be 
either a negotiation where I would want to show the other side specific 
documents one at a time, or in a full blown hearing in court where an 
evidence binder is a better idea.
If it is a settlement negotiation, and I want the other side to see only one 
documentt at a time, I make sure that each document is referenced 
individually, with a cover sheet of braille on it. This way the other side 
will see only a braille coversheet - this not only tells me what it is, but 
drives the other side nuts if they are trying to peek at things on my side 
of the table.
Not that a fellow attorney would try to read something on my side of the 
table deliberately, mind you.
IT simply gives me additional control over the documentation and how it can 
be seen, only when and where I wish it. We have all seen how contentious 
some settings can be. So strict control over what your opponent can chance a 
look at is important.
There are two ways that documents can be referenced  electronically, at 
least by me.
I am, as some on this list know, a bit of self-taught computer geek. I don't 
know all that much about programs, but what I do know is important enough to 
warrant direct knowledge by me.
I will, for example, have my exhibit list done up, and then drop my 
electronic exhibits in the same MS word document as the list. I then go in 
and hyperlink each item on the exhibit list to the document. In this way, no 
matter what document adverse counsel or a judge or hearings officer decides 
to look at or make reference to, I simply hit the link, or pull up the 
bookmark list and pop down to it. I happen to use JAWS, and a link list or 
bookmark list is very easy to pull up no matter where you are inside a 
document. That comes in real handy for me, especially in some of my Cases 
where I am advocating for adaptive technology.
IS this extra work? Yes it is.
  Do I bill the client for this? No, I don't.
You only need to do this sort of thing a few times and it is faster and 
easier to do than you think.
In some ways this will put you on a fairly even footing with your sighted 
adverse counsel. Well, as much as a blind attorney can be that is.
What about when I am in court - assuming I have submitted an evidence 
binder. Well, when sitting at counsel table it is easy to use either braille 
or a laptop. I personally prefer the laptop. I have never had a judge tell 
me to leave counsel table to stand at the podium. and place me at a 
disadvantage. Would I carry my laptop up to a podium? Well, yes, I could, 
but never have.
Oh yes, one other thing about using a computer - I am blind enough that I 
cannot see the screen at all. So I will use either a wired earpiece or my 
blue tooth earpiece to hear what is on my screen. Nobody else can hear it, 
so client confidentiality is as safeguarded as much as possible. It really 
is a different way to practice law, but works, does not comprimise anything 
for your client and gets the job done.
Although there was that one time when a new, young and sighted attorney in 
my office came with me to court to help, and spilled an entire pitcher of 
ice water on the paper file, my laptop and me.
Well, if you're going to have a mishap, do it in front of a superior court 
judge and a courtroom full of your colleagues, right?
 That was one time I did stand up and do it all from the podium. If you 
prepare enough, the foregoing type of mishap isn't as bad is it sounds. 
Although, to this day, certain lawyers will ask me before a hearing if I 
would like a drink of water.
There are as many war stories about the "unexpected" during hearings as 
there are lawyers on this list, and I think that some day we should all 
write them down and post them somewhere. People won't believe a lot of them, 
I promise you that. Like the time my spring-loaded umbrella erupted out of 
my briefcase during a hearing at counsel table...

I do some work in court, a lot of administrative hearings and do a lot of 
settlement work, so over the years I have developed what works for me at my 
level of training.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you need to do what will work 
for you, as an attorney doing your type of work.
The way I have noted here about me is only one way, and it happens to work 
for me.
You will most certainly get a spectrum of different ideas from other lawyers 
on this list, and I promise you they will all be good ideas.
You should pick and choose, or modify until you hit on a method that makes 
you comfortable and works for you.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Craig Spencer" <craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:02 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


> For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address
> managing the paper file for a case?
>
> Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
> referenced or shown to the opposing side?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com


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06:32:00



From craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 21:04:44 2010
From: craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com (Craig Spencer)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 17:04:44 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server>	<auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com><016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<000e01cad9a6$ad695380$083bfa80$@com>
Message-ID: <01ad01cad9ba$9d9b8540$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>

Thanks.
I suppose that if one or two attorneys are to deal with one file the file in 
most cases would be set-up by the sighted attorney?



I practice primarily in family law and domestic violence restraining orders 
and when I get the case, the file is already put together.



Most of my Court appearances involve traveling to other counties and I 
usually travel to Court with someone from the office.



After reviewing the file with that person I take notes and make reference to 
what is in the paper file.



It may be what the office procedures for a particular law practice require?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


> Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your question.
>
> To start, the law practice should have only one file per case or per 
> client;
> otherwise, if each attorney keeps his/her own file, you have chaos.
>
> The best option is to have all files kept electronically, recognizing that
> of course there will be times when paper documents will have to be used.
>
> If, in your question, you are talking about preparing a Response to a
> Request for Documents, unless it is a simple request or limited to a small
> number of easily recognized documents, you will probably need sighted 
> help,
> especially if you have to take a large volume of documents and decide 
> which
> documents must be produced and which documents do not need to be produced.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Craig Spencer
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:02 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>
> For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address
> managing the paper file for a case?
>
> Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
> referenced or shown to the opposing side?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
> rm.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/craigspencer2.0%40gmail.com 



From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Sun Apr 11 23:34:39 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:34:39 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
In-Reply-To: <01ad01cad9ba$9d9b8540$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT>
	<BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl>
	<00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server>
	<BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl>
	<006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server>
	<auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<000e01cad9a6$ad695380$083bfa80$@com>
	<01ad01cad9ba$9d9b8540$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
Message-ID: <42C1C92E54D44BE6B7AFB671563E1EFF@StevePC>

I'm not an attorney, however, what ever happened to the paperless office 
myth??

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Craig Spencer" <craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com>
To: <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>; "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" 
<blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


> Thanks.
> I suppose that if one or two attorneys are to deal with one file the file 
> in
> most cases would be set-up by the sighted attorney?
>
>
>
> I practice primarily in family law and domestic violence restraining 
> orders
> and when I get the case, the file is already put together.
>
>
>
> Most of my Court appearances involve traveling to other counties and I
> usually travel to Court with someone from the office.
>
>
>
> After reviewing the file with that person I take notes and make reference 
> to
> what is in the paper file.
>
>
>
> It may be what the office procedures for a particular law practice 
> require?
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 2:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>
>
>> Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your question.
>>
>> To start, the law practice should have only one file per case or per
>> client;
>> otherwise, if each attorney keeps his/her own file, you have chaos.
>>
>> The best option is to have all files kept electronically, recognizing 
>> that
>> of course there will be times when paper documents will have to be used.
>>
>> If, in your question, you are talking about preparing a Response to a
>> Request for Documents, unless it is a simple request or limited to a 
>> small
>> number of easily recognized documents, you will probably need sighted
>> help,
>> especially if you have to take a large volume of documents and decide
>> which
>> documents must be produced and which documents do not need to be 
>> produced.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Craig Spencer
>> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:02 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>>
>> For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you 
>> address
>> managing the paper file for a case?
>>
>> Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
>> referenced or shown to the opposing side?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
>> rm.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/craigspencer2.0%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


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From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Mon Apr 12 02:19:40 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:19:40 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server>
	<auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<000e01cad9a6$ad695380$083bfa80$@com>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7295262@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

Our office (public defender) fortunately keeps both electronic and paper files on all clients.  The biggest problems that I run into are filing in the paper file (I still have some sight, though not much, leading staff to assume I can do it), nad prosecutors handing me new documents in court for use that minute (again, others relying too much on the fact I have minimal sight).  Instances like that probably should be handled by an assistant / reader...although in the office, the e-files are fantastic.  The fact that everyone has them also is of great help, in case I need to cover a case for a co-worker.

________________________________

From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org on behalf of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Sun 4/11/2010 11:42 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files



Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your question.

To start, the law practice should have only one file per case or per client;
otherwise, if each attorney keeps his/her own file, you have chaos.

The best option is to have all files kept electronically, recognizing that
of course there will be times when paper documents will have to be used.

If, in your question, you are talking about preparing a Response to a
Request for Documents, unless it is a simple request or limited to a small
number of easily recognized documents, you will probably need sighted help,
especially if you have to take a large volume of documents and decide which
documents must be produced and which documents do not need to be produced.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Craig Spencer
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:02 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files

For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address
managing the paper file for a case?

Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
referenced or shown to the opposing side?




_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
rm.com


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40pima.gov




From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Mon Apr 12 02:25:55 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:25:55 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT>
	<BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl>
	<00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server>
	<BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl>
	<006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server>
	<auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<000e01cad9a6$ad695380$083bfa80$@com>
	<01ad01cad9ba$9d9b8540$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<42C1C92E54D44BE6B7AFB671563E1EFF@StevePC>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7295263@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

With systems like the one in our office (run remotely for the entire county - a true nightmare) - the "paperless"office is of necessity a myth.  Our system is offline and unusable at least twice a month, if not more often.  Even when I could see more, I routinely kept my laptop with me as well, so that I did not suffer the "downtime"and frustration that so many others encountered.  Safety dictates that the be a hard copy of everything that is still needed, from which the file can be easily re-created, even if not by those of us little to no remaining eyesight.

________________________________

From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org on behalf of Steve P. Deeley
Sent: Sun 4/11/2010 4:34 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files



I'm not an attorney, however, what ever happened to the paperless office
myth??

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Spencer" <craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com>
To: <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>; "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List"
<blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


> Thanks.
> I suppose that if one or two attorneys are to deal with one file the file
> in
> most cases would be set-up by the sighted attorney?
>
>
>
> I practice primarily in family law and domestic violence restraining
> orders
> and when I get the case, the file is already put together.
>
>
>
> Most of my Court appearances involve traveling to other counties and I
> usually travel to Court with someone from the office.
>
>
>
> After reviewing the file with that person I take notes and make reference
> to
> what is in the paper file.
>
>
>
> It may be what the office procedures for a particular law practice
> require?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 2:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>
>
>> Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your question.
>>
>> To start, the law practice should have only one file per case or per
>> client;
>> otherwise, if each attorney keeps his/her own file, you have chaos.
>>
>> The best option is to have all files kept electronically, recognizing
>> that
>> of course there will be times when paper documents will have to be used.
>>
>> If, in your question, you are talking about preparing a Response to a
>> Request for Documents, unless it is a simple request or limited to a
>> small
>> number of easily recognized documents, you will probably need sighted
>> help,
>> especially if you have to take a large volume of documents and decide
>> which
>> documents must be produced and which documents do not need to be
>> produced.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Craig Spencer
>> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:02 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>>
>> For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you
>> address
>> managing the paper file for a case?
>>
>> Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
>> referenced or shown to the opposing side?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
>> rm.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
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>
>
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18:32:00



From attorney at alcidonislaw.com  Mon Apr 12 04:49:57 2010
From: attorney at alcidonislaw.com (Rod Alcidonis, Esquire.)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 00:49:57 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
In-Reply-To: <469B1751CE13485CACB4DA9262D9C283@none8a46117901>
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server><auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com><016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<469B1751CE13485CACB4DA9262D9C283@none8a46117901>
Message-ID: <46FB6CF6E3254965AC6E74265F705696@RodelynPC>

Ross:

That was a good one.

A lot of good stuff in there.


Rod Alcidonis, Attorney and Counselor at Law
Alcidonis Law Office, LLC
6907B Rising Sun Ave. 1st floor
Philadelphia, PA 19111
Tel: (215) 305-8085
Fax: (215) 525-0999
Attorney at alcidonislaw.com
Licensed in Pennsylvania and New Jersey

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and/or its attachment(s) is being sent 
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permanently delete this message from your system. This communication is 
covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. § 2510-2521.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ross Doerr" <rumpole at roadrunner.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 3:45 PM
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files

> Hello Craig:
> I'd say your question has two different answers to it. One for the office, 
> and one for hearings and negotiations settings.
> For my office , I work in an office with 9 other lawyers. I manage my 
> documents in a disciplined and structured way out of necessity.
> WE have only one secretary to handle all of us.
> Of course, in practical terms that means we each do almost everything 
> ourselves. So, when it comes to documents and dealing with other lawyers 
> in my office, I make sure they all know how I do things.
> I also make sure they know that, if they need a document out of one of my 
> files, they need to either hand it back to me in person so that I can be 
> the one to put it back, or that they can be trusted to return it to the 
> right place. Failure to do so is, as you can guess, a tragedy in the 
> making for me, and not them. For that reason, I am a very, very critical 
> person when it comes to my fellow lawyers getting into one of my paper 
> files.
> As you may guess, the paper file needs to be set up by me and in a way 
> that is organized for me. I have only had to snarl at a fellow attorney 
> twice in the past 7 years about "moving things around on me".
>
> My case notes and telephone log, evidence notes and exhibits list all go 
> onto my external hard drive and is backed up weekly to two other 
> locations, one at home and one at work. Is this extra work? You bet.
> Is it double coverage? You bet.
> Am I covered if one or two machines of mine or the offices die? You bet.
> That really isn't as much work as it sounds, I have found that the backups 
> take about 15 to twenty minutes a week, so it really isn't so bad once you 
> get used to doing it.
> I had our office manager, who was wise enough to have all of our server 
> information backed up to an off-site location daily, to move my local 
> "MyDocuments" folders onto the server directly - so in point of fact, I 
> have my stuff protected as much as I possibly can.
> You see, for me, the paper file is important, but my electronic file is 
> more important for obvious reasons.
> But everything in each of my paper files is referenced in my electronic 
> file.
> Paper documents and evidence that has come into the office for my files 
> are either scanned and then converted to text using K-1000 or some other 
> program, or is very strictly referenced in my electronic notes, such as, 
> for example those god-awful doctor's and nurses notes that come in that 
> handwriting that only a doctor or nurse can decode. (And they say blind 
> people have bad handwriting. Sheesh)
>  I then make certain that all documents are in one of two forms, depending 
> upon what type of situation I am going into. By this I mean, if it is to 
> be either a negotiation where I would want to show the other side specific 
> documents one at a time, or in a full blown hearing in court where an 
> evidence binder is a better idea.
> If it is a settlement negotiation, and I want the other side to see only 
> one documentt at a time, I make sure that each document is referenced 
> individually, with a cover sheet of braille on it. This way the other side 
> will see only a braille coversheet - this not only tells me what it is, 
> but drives the other side nuts if they are trying to peek at things on my 
> side of the table.
> Not that a fellow attorney would try to read something on my side of the 
> table deliberately, mind you.
> IT simply gives me additional control over the documentation and how it 
> can be seen, only when and where I wish it. We have all seen how 
> contentious some settings can be. So strict control over what your 
> opponent can chance a look at is important.
> There are two ways that documents can be referenced  electronically, at 
> least by me.
> I am, as some on this list know, a bit of self-taught computer geek. I 
> don't know all that much about programs, but what I do know is important 
> enough to warrant direct knowledge by me.
> I will, for example, have my exhibit list done up, and then drop my 
> electronic exhibits in the same MS word document as the list. I then go in 
> and hyperlink each item on the exhibit list to the document. In this way, 
> no matter what document adverse counsel or a judge or hearings officer 
> decides to look at or make reference to, I simply hit the link, or pull up 
> the bookmark list and pop down to it. I happen to use JAWS, and a link 
> list or bookmark list is very easy to pull up no matter where you are 
> inside a document. That comes in real handy for me, especially in some of 
> my Cases where I am advocating for adaptive technology.
> IS this extra work? Yes it is.
>  Do I bill the client for this? No, I don't.
> You only need to do this sort of thing a few times and it is faster and 
> easier to do than you think.
> In some ways this will put you on a fairly even footing with your sighted 
> adverse counsel. Well, as much as a blind attorney can be that is.
> What about when I am in court - assuming I have submitted an evidence 
> binder. Well, when sitting at counsel table it is easy to use either 
> braille or a laptop. I personally prefer the laptop. I have never had a 
> judge tell me to leave counsel table to stand at the podium. and place me 
> at a disadvantage. Would I carry my laptop up to a podium? Well, yes, I 
> could, but never have.
> Oh yes, one other thing about using a computer - I am blind enough that I 
> cannot see the screen at all. So I will use either a wired earpiece or my 
> blue tooth earpiece to hear what is on my screen. Nobody else can hear it, 
> so client confidentiality is as safeguarded as much as possible. It really 
> is a different way to practice law, but works, does not comprimise 
> anything for your client and gets the job done.
> Although there was that one time when a new, young and sighted attorney in 
> my office came with me to court to help, and spilled an entire pitcher of 
> ice water on the paper file, my laptop and me.
> Well, if you're going to have a mishap, do it in front of a superior court 
> judge and a courtroom full of your colleagues, right?
> That was one time I did stand up and do it all from the podium. If you 
> prepare enough, the foregoing type of mishap isn't as bad is it sounds. 
> Although, to this day, certain lawyers will ask me before a hearing if I 
> would like a drink of water.
> There are as many war stories about the "unexpected" during hearings as 
> there are lawyers on this list, and I think that some day we should all 
> write them down and post them somewhere. People won't believe a lot of 
> them, I promise you that. Like the time my spring-loaded umbrella erupted 
> out of my briefcase during a hearing at counsel table...
>
> I do some work in court, a lot of administrative hearings and do a lot of 
> settlement work, so over the years I have developed what works for me at 
> my level of training.
> I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you need to do what will work 
> for you, as an attorney doing your type of work.
> The way I have noted here about me is only one way, and it happens to work 
> for me.
> You will most certainly get a spectrum of different ideas from other 
> lawyers on this list, and I promise you they will all be good ideas.
> You should pick and choose, or modify until you hit on a method that makes 
> you comfortable and works for you.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Craig Spencer" <craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:02 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>
>
>> For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you 
>> address
>> managing the paper file for a case?
>>
>> Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
>> referenced or shown to the opposing side?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2804 - Release Date: 04/11/10 
> 06:32:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/attorney%40alcidonislaw.com 



From craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 12 10:24:35 2010
From: craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com (Craig Spencer)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:24:35 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server><auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com><016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<469B1751CE13485CACB4DA9262D9C283@none8a46117901>
Message-ID: <02c501cada2a$59a99cd0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>

Thanks Ross for that well thought-out and detailed response.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ross Doerr" <rumpole at roadrunner.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


> Hello Craig:
> I'd say your question has two different answers to it. One for the office, 
> and one for hearings and negotiations settings.
> For my office , I work in an office with 9 other lawyers. I manage my 
> documents in a disciplined and structured way out of necessity.
> WE have only one secretary to handle all of us.
> Of course, in practical terms that means we each do almost everything 
> ourselves. So, when it comes to documents and dealing with other lawyers 
> in my office, I make sure they all know how I do things.
> I also make sure they know that, if they need a document out of one of my 
> files, they need to either hand it back to me in person so that I can be 
> the one to put it back, or that they can be trusted to return it to the 
> right place. Failure to do so is, as you can guess, a tragedy in the 
> making for me, and not them. For that reason, I am a very, very critical 
> person when it comes to my fellow lawyers getting into one of my paper 
> files.
> As you may guess, the paper file needs to be set up by me and in a way 
> that is organized for me. I have only had to snarl at a fellow attorney 
> twice in the past 7 years about "moving things around on me".
>
> My case notes and telephone log, evidence notes and exhibits list all go 
> onto my external hard drive and is backed up weekly to two other 
> locations, one at home and one at work. Is this extra work? You bet.
> Is it double coverage? You bet.
> Am I covered if one or two machines of mine or the offices die? You bet.
> That really isn't as much work as it sounds, I have found that the backups 
> take about 15 to twenty minutes a week, so it really isn't so bad once you 
> get used to doing it.
> I had our office manager, who was wise enough to have all of our server 
> information backed up to an off-site location daily, to move my local 
> "MyDocuments" folders onto the server directly - so in point of fact, I 
> have my stuff protected as much as I possibly can.
> You see, for me, the paper file is important, but my electronic file is 
> more important for obvious reasons.
> But everything in each of my paper files is referenced in my electronic 
> file.
> Paper documents and evidence that has come into the office for my files 
> are either scanned and then converted to text using K-1000 or some other 
> program, or is very strictly referenced in my electronic notes, such as, 
> for example those god-awful doctor's and nurses notes that come in that 
> handwriting that only a doctor or nurse can decode. (And they say blind 
> people have bad handwriting. Sheesh)
>  I then make certain that all documents are in one of two forms, depending 
> upon what type of situation I am going into. By this I mean, if it is to 
> be either a negotiation where I would want to show the other side specific 
> documents one at a time, or in a full blown hearing in court where an 
> evidence binder is a better idea.
> If it is a settlement negotiation, and I want the other side to see only 
> one documentt at a time, I make sure that each document is referenced 
> individually, with a cover sheet of braille on it. This way the other side 
> will see only a braille coversheet - this not only tells me what it is, 
> but drives the other side nuts if they are trying to peek at things on my 
> side of the table.
> Not that a fellow attorney would try to read something on my side of the 
> table deliberately, mind you.
> IT simply gives me additional control over the documentation and how it 
> can be seen, only when and where I wish it. We have all seen how 
> contentious some settings can be. So strict control over what your 
> opponent can chance a look at is important.
> There are two ways that documents can be referenced  electronically, at 
> least by me.
> I am, as some on this list know, a bit of self-taught computer geek. I 
> don't know all that much about programs, but what I do know is important 
> enough to warrant direct knowledge by me.
> I will, for example, have my exhibit list done up, and then drop my 
> electronic exhibits in the same MS word document as the list. I then go in 
> and hyperlink each item on the exhibit list to the document. In this way, 
> no matter what document adverse counsel or a judge or hearings officer 
> decides to look at or make reference to, I simply hit the link, or pull up 
> the bookmark list and pop down to it. I happen to use JAWS, and a link 
> list or bookmark list is very easy to pull up no matter where you are 
> inside a document. That comes in real handy for me, especially in some of 
> my Cases where I am advocating for adaptive technology.
> IS this extra work? Yes it is.
>  Do I bill the client for this? No, I don't.
> You only need to do this sort of thing a few times and it is faster and 
> easier to do than you think.
> In some ways this will put you on a fairly even footing with your sighted 
> adverse counsel. Well, as much as a blind attorney can be that is.
> What about when I am in court - assuming I have submitted an evidence 
> binder. Well, when sitting at counsel table it is easy to use either 
> braille or a laptop. I personally prefer the laptop. I have never had a 
> judge tell me to leave counsel table to stand at the podium. and place me 
> at a disadvantage. Would I carry my laptop up to a podium? Well, yes, I 
> could, but never have.
> Oh yes, one other thing about using a computer - I am blind enough that I 
> cannot see the screen at all. So I will use either a wired earpiece or my 
> blue tooth earpiece to hear what is on my screen. Nobody else can hear it, 
> so client confidentiality is as safeguarded as much as possible. It really 
> is a different way to practice law, but works, does not comprimise 
> anything for your client and gets the job done.
> Although there was that one time when a new, young and sighted attorney in 
> my office came with me to court to help, and spilled an entire pitcher of 
> ice water on the paper file, my laptop and me.
> Well, if you're going to have a mishap, do it in front of a superior court 
> judge and a courtroom full of your colleagues, right?
> That was one time I did stand up and do it all from the podium. If you 
> prepare enough, the foregoing type of mishap isn't as bad is it sounds. 
> Although, to this day, certain lawyers will ask me before a hearing if I 
> would like a drink of water.
> There are as many war stories about the "unexpected" during hearings as 
> there are lawyers on this list, and I think that some day we should all 
> write them down and post them somewhere. People won't believe a lot of 
> them, I promise you that. Like the time my spring-loaded umbrella erupted 
> out of my briefcase during a hearing at counsel table...
>
> I do some work in court, a lot of administrative hearings and do a lot of 
> settlement work, so over the years I have developed what works for me at 
> my level of training.
> I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you need to do what will work 
> for you, as an attorney doing your type of work.
> The way I have noted here about me is only one way, and it happens to work 
> for me.
> You will most certainly get a spectrum of different ideas from other 
> lawyers on this list, and I promise you they will all be good ideas.
> You should pick and choose, or modify until you hit on a method that makes 
> you comfortable and works for you.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Craig Spencer" <craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:02 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>
>
>> For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you 
>> address
>> managing the paper file for a case?
>>
>> Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
>> referenced or shown to the opposing side?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2804 - Release Date: 04/11/10 
> 06:32:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/craigspencer2.0%40gmail.com 



From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Mon Apr 12 19:42:48 2010
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:42:48 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
 But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED5047F40FDB@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>


Link:
http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/article/no_food_stamps_for_service_dog_but_his_disabled_owner_may_now_have_a_lawyer

Text:
No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer
Posted April 7, 2010
By Martha Neil

A service dog doesn't qualify for food stamps, a Pennsylvania court has ruled, because he isn't human.

But the animal's disabled owner, James Douris, may not have to argue the legal issue on his own much longer. Although he lost a pro se Pennsylvania Commonwealth Court case arguing that the dog's nutritional requirements should be taken into account, as a household member, in determining his owner's food stamp allotment, Douris says his phone has been ringing off the hook since the court's decision yesterday, reports the L.A. Unleashed blog of the Los Angeles Times.

Among those calling are lawyers who want to help him with an appeal, he says. Even the court that ruled against him, upholding an earlier determination by the Department of Public Welfare, apparently would have liked to see a different result:

"This court is sympathetic to [Douris'] argument that his service dog is a necessity for him due to his disability, and that he lacks the funds to properly feed his service dog," states Judge Renee Cohn Jubelirer in the written opinion. "We hope that there is some other state or federal program that might provide for the maintenance and upkeep of [the] dog."


From joramsey at cox.net  Mon Apr 12 20:20:31 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:20:31 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
	But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,
	April 7 2010
In-Reply-To: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED5047F40FDB@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>
Message-ID: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>

So are we to infer that the 9th circuit is now going to rule that dogs
should get food stamps?

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 3:43 PM
To: 'blindlaw at nfbnet.org'
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner
May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010



Link:
http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/article/no_food_stamps_for_service_dog_but_
his_disabled_owner_may_now_have_a_lawyer

Text:
No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer
Posted April 7, 2010 By Martha Neil

A service dog doesn't qualify for food stamps, a Pennsylvania court has
ruled, because he isn't human.

But the animal's disabled owner, James Douris, may not have to argue the
legal issue on his own much longer. Although he lost a pro se Pennsylvania
Commonwealth Court case arguing that the dog's nutritional requirements
should be taken into account, as a household member, in determining his
owner's food stamp allotment, Douris says his phone has been ringing off the
hook since the court's decision yesterday, reports the L.A. Unleashed blog
of the Los Angeles Times.

Among those calling are lawyers who want to help him with an appeal, he
says. Even the court that ruled against him, upholding an earlier
determination by the Department of Public Welfare, apparently would have
liked to see a different result:

"This court is sympathetic to [Douris'] argument that his service dog is a
necessity for him due to his disability, and that he lacks the funds to
properly feed his service dog," states Judge Renee Cohn Jubelirer in the
written opinion. "We hope that there is some other state or federal program
that might provide for the maintenance and upkeep of [the] dog."

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net



From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 12 21:10:18 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:10:18 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] IRS Status of Readers
Message-ID: <2cc701cada84$8e09ddf0$6601a8c0@server>

Hello everyone,
I am curious if my fellow attorneys claim their part time readers as independent contractors or employees?  Are there any IRS regs or rulings which clarify the proper tax treatment?  I appreciate your help and ideas.
Warmest regards,
Dennis

From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 12 22:33:26 2010
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:33:26 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
	But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,
	April 7 2010
In-Reply-To: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <A69D64E8-EAE0-4C8A-8FC6-245C842A68ED@sbcglobal.net>

if service dogs get food stamps, then are their vet expenses payable  
by Medicare? :)  Can I have his harness repaired and get him groomed  
as part of my clothing alotment? :)

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Tue Apr 13 00:10:26 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 20:10:26 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
	But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,
	April 7 2010
In-Reply-To: <A69D64E8-EAE0-4C8A-8FC6-245C842A68ED@sbcglobal.net>
References: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>
	<A69D64E8-EAE0-4C8A-8FC6-245C842A68ED@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <721F40417C2546639C50D3DF7A174A6C@StevePC>

How about getting a job or having income prior to getting a service dog??? 
This, if true, is absolutely ridiculous.

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,But His Disabled 
Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010


> if service dogs get food stamps, then are their vet expenses payable
> by Medicare? :)  Can I have his harness repaired and get him groomed
> as part of my clothing alotment? :)
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Tue Apr 13 11:51:11 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 04:51:11 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
	But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,
	April 7 2010
In-Reply-To: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <5D1F28FC321A48D98D70824F5116101C@spike>

Well it won't be the 9th Circuit since this originated in Pennsylvania.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,But His Disabled 
Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,April 7 2010


> So are we to infer that the 9th circuit is now going to rule that dogs
> should get food stamps?
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 3:43 PM
> To: 'blindlaw at nfbnet.org'
> Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner
> May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010
>
>
>
> Link:
> http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/article/no_food_stamps_for_service_dog_but_
> his_disabled_owner_may_now_have_a_lawyer
>
> Text:
> No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a 
> Lawyer
> Posted April 7, 2010 By Martha Neil
>
> A service dog doesn't qualify for food stamps, a Pennsylvania court has
> ruled, because he isn't human.
>
> But the animal's disabled owner, James Douris, may not have to argue the
> legal issue on his own much longer. Although he lost a pro se Pennsylvania
> Commonwealth Court case arguing that the dog's nutritional requirements
> should be taken into account, as a household member, in determining his
> owner's food stamp allotment, Douris says his phone has been ringing off 
> the
> hook since the court's decision yesterday, reports the L.A. Unleashed blog
> of the Los Angeles Times.
>
> Among those calling are lawyers who want to help him with an appeal, he
> says. Even the court that ruled against him, upholding an earlier
> determination by the Department of Public Welfare, apparently would have
> liked to see a different result:
>
> "This court is sympathetic to [Douris'] argument that his service dog is a
> necessity for him due to his disability, and that he lacks the funds to
> properly feed his service dog," states Judge Renee Cohn Jubelirer in the
> written opinion. "We hope that there is some other state or federal 
> program
> that might provide for the maintenance and upkeep of [the] dog."
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us  Tue Apr 13 13:03:52 2010
From: david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us (Hyde, David W. (ESC))
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:03:52 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
 But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010
In-Reply-To: <A69D64E8-EAE0-4C8A-8FC6-245C842A68ED@sbcglobal.net>
References: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>
	<A69D64E8-EAE0-4C8A-8FC6-245C842A68ED@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC123367BB1D079D@tiger>

Not under Medicare. However, if someone is on SSI, such could be considered work related expenses.  

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark BurningHawk
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 5:33 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010

if service dogs get food stamps, then are their vet expenses payable by Medicare? :)  Can I have his harness repaired and get him groomed as part of my clothing alotment? :)

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us


From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Tue Apr 13 20:13:08 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:13:08 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind to Present Third
	Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium
Message-ID: <8B024F71F35140EEB4E1C10E24A33010@labarre>

Greetings, please see the below agenda for the NABL meeting and press release about the Syposium.  
Thanks,
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.
President, National Association of Blind Lawyers
LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)


***************
National Association of Blind Lawyers

 

Spring Seminar, 2010

COMPANION SESSION TO 2010 

TENBROEK LAW SYPOSIUM 

Friday, April 16, 2010

 

National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute 

200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place 

Baltimore, Maryland 21230 

 

1:30:                Registration. 

 

2:00:        Opening: Recent Developments in the Law                              Affecting Blind Americans: 

                Scott C. LaBarre, LaBarre Law Offices; 

                President, National Association of Blind Lawyers;                    Denver, Colorado 

 

2:30:        Teaching an Old Dog New Tricks: 

                A Practicing Attorney Learns and Uses Braille                         After Losing Sight 

                Randal S. Farber, Partner, Jackson Walker,                            L.L.P., Houston Texas 

 

3:00:        Practice Tips for Blind and Visually Impaired Trial                    Attorneys: 

                An Interactive Presentation  

·       Patti Chang: Practicing Attorney for the City of Chicago; Board Member, National Association of      Blind Lawyers; Board Member, National Federation of the Blind; Chicago, Illinois

·       Parnell Diggs, Private Practitioner; Board Member, National Association of Blind Lawyers; Board Member, National Federation of the Blind Myrtle Beach, South Carolina 

 

4:00:        The Latest in Accessible Research Tools for Blind                   and Visually Impaired Attorneys 

                Ronza Othman, Government Specialist, National                     Federation of the Blind; Board Member, National                     Association of Blind Lawyers; Baltimore, Maryland 

 

4:30:        Addressing Issues Related to Blindness in the                         work Place: Hiring, Supervising and Firing                                Readers and other staff; interacting with                                        Coworkers

·       Millie Ann Rivera-Rau, Attorney Advisor, Agency Oversight Division Office of Federal Operations Equal Employment Opportunity; Commission; Board Member, National Association of Blind Lawyers; Baltimore, Maryland

·       Ray Wayne, Supervising Attorney, New York City Commission on Human Rights; Secretary, National Association of Blind Lawyers; New York, New York. 

 

5:00:        Adjourn



***************

 



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
 

CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

cdanielsen at nfb.org

 

National Federation of the Blind to Present 
Third Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium
Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights Tom Perez and 
Former Congressman Tony Coelho to be Keynote Speakers
 
Baltimore, Maryland (April 13, 2010): The National Federation of the Blind (NFB) will present the third Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium on April 15-16, 2010, at the NFB Jernigan Institute in Baltimore.  The symposium, entitled "Equality, Difference, and The Right to Live in the World" and named for NFB founder and pioneering legal scholar Dr. Jacobus tenBroek (1911-1968), will gather public officials, legal scholars, and disability rights advocates for a two-day seminar on the state of disability law in the United States and the world, and will discuss how disability rights may be advanced in the future.  Tom Perez, assistant attorney general for the civil rights division of the U.S. Department of Justice, and Tony Coelho, former California congressman and current chairman of the board of the American Association of People with Disabilities, will be the keynote speakers.
"Our first two Jacobus tenBroek symposiums were extraordinary events, and we are looking forward to once again hosting leading players and thinkers in the disability community," said Dr. Marc Maurer, an attorney and President of the National Federation of the Blind.   "Disability law is rapidly changing at the national and international level, and this forum will provide an opportunity for everyone to assess developments and plan strategies in this dynamic and critically-important field."

 

Other presenters at the 2010 symposium include the Honorable Richard Brown, chief judge of the Wisconsin Court of Appeals; Mark Weber, Vincent DePaul Professor of Law at DePaul University College of Law; and Dan Brock, director of the division of medical ethics at Harvard Medical School.

 

Dr. Jacobus tenBroek was a constitutional law scholar, a blind professor at Berkeley, and an author of treatises on the Fourteenth Amendment and social welfare.  Dr. tenBroek created the concept that civil rights should apply to disabled Americans, and he published extensively on the application of the law to those with disabilities.  His efforts to advance civil rights for the blind and others with disabilities included drafting the model White Cane Law, which has had a profound influence on the development of civil rights laws for the disabled throughout the United States, and publishing authoritative articles like "The Right to Live in the World: The Disabled in the Law of Torts."

 

The proceedings of the symposium will be published in the Texas Journal on Civil Liberties and Civil Rights.

 

For more information about the National Federation of the Blind, please visit www.nfb.org.  

 

 

###

 

 

 

About the National Federation of the Blind

 

With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States.  The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind.

 

 

 

 

From joramsey at cox.net  Tue Apr 13 20:17:54 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:17:54 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
	But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,
	April 7 2010
In-Reply-To: <5D1F28FC321A48D98D70824F5116101C@spike>
Message-ID: <1DE4DAE782704654A73995E434D5F8E7@noneeb869fea9a>

Oh, I thought it was a CA case

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 7:51 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,But His Disabled
Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,April 7 2010


Well it won't be the 9th Circuit since this originated in Pennsylvania.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,But His Disabled 
Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,April 7 2010


> So are we to infer that the 9th circuit is now going to rule that dogs 
> should get food stamps?
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 3:43 PM
> To: 'blindlaw at nfbnet.org'
> Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled 
> Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010
>
>
>
> Link: 
> http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/article/no_food_stamps_for_service_do
> g_but_
> his_disabled_owner_may_now_have_a_lawyer
>
> Text:
> No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a
> Lawyer
> Posted April 7, 2010 By Martha Neil
>
> A service dog doesn't qualify for food stamps, a Pennsylvania court 
> has ruled, because he isn't human.
>
> But the animal's disabled owner, James Douris, may not have to argue 
> the legal issue on his own much longer. Although he lost a pro se 
> Pennsylvania Commonwealth Court case arguing that the dog's 
> nutritional requirements should be taken into account, as a household 
> member, in determining his owner's food stamp allotment, Douris says 
> his phone has been ringing off the hook since the court's decision 
> yesterday, reports the L.A. Unleashed blog of the Los Angeles Times.
>
> Among those calling are lawyers who want to help him with an appeal, 
> he says. Even the court that ruled against him, upholding an earlier 
> determination by the Department of Public Welfare, apparently would 
> have liked to see a different result:
>
> "This court is sympathetic to [Douris'] argument that his service dog 
> is a necessity for him due to his disability, and that he lacks the 
> funds to properly feed his service dog," states Judge Renee Cohn 
> Jubelirer in the written opinion. "We hope that there is some other 
> state or federal program that might provide for the maintenance and 
> upkeep of [the] dog."
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw: 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c
> ox.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net



From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Tue Apr 13 23:20:20 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 18:20:20 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <4bbf8271.0e0bca0a.110d.470b@mx.google.com>
	<65CC29A259D0480998A25CE5D9584173@owner1e06aeb63>
Message-ID: <5675F0ECD09B47F4989A3683544BC649@Rob>

Great posting, Mike. As a nation we continue to flert with the dangers of 
demographics and identity politics which has, in some cases, compromised 
judgment in selecting judicial nominees for the right reasons, e.g., 
judicial temprament, legal scholarship, and other hallmarks of 
professionalism. The same danger exist, too, in elective politics and the 
appointment of high level executive officials. David Patterson, who 
succeeded Elliott Spitzer as governor of New York after he had to resign in 
the aftermath of a personal scandal, certainly did not distinguish himself 
as an effective executive manager or leader. There is talk he may not even 
run for a term in his own right. Sorry, but Governor Patterson was not 
exactly the poster boy for successful blind executives. Ass for Judge Tatel, 
he may well do better in that regard, but I hope the process can stay 
focused on the aforementioned necessary attributes.
best regards
Rob Tabor
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> If we're going down *that* road, how about a blind, native-American, 
> Buddhist, woman, lesbian, conservative judge? (har)
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 12:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
>> Beth
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglobal.net 



From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Tue Apr 13 23:34:44 2010
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 19:34:44 EDT
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Census Alert
Message-ID: <3f2a.2c1c3903.38f65994@aol.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: Othman, Ronza  [mailto:ROthman at nfb.org] 
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:46 PM
Subject:  Census Alert

Fellow Federationists,



As you know, the 2010  Census is upon us.  You may have received a form in
the mail from the  U.S. Census Bureau in late March.  All Americans are
required to provide  Census data under Title 13, United States Code, 
Sections
143 and 191.   Anyone over 18 years old who refuses or willfully neglects to
complete the  questionnaire or answer questions posed by Census employees 
may
be fined up  to $5,000.  The Census Bureau is required to safeguard
information it  receives and is prohibited from sharing information about
individuals with  anyone, including other governmental agencies.  Any Census
worker who  shares personal information about any individual will be subject
to a fine of  up to $250,000, imprisonment for up to five years, or both.



The  information obtained through the Census may only be used for  
statistical
purposes, including legislative redistricting and the allocation  of nearly
$400 billion in governmental funding to public projects such as  schools,
road and infrastructure construction, hospital and health care  services,
rehabilitation programs, and disaster preparedness projects.   It is crucial
that the nation's blind be counted.



Blind  Americans can complete the Census in a number of ways:



-- By  Phone: Call the Census toll free help line at 1-866-872-6868 and
request a  representative.  A Census worker will complete the Census Short
Form  over the phone between April 12 and 21.  You may be asked for  your
20-digit Census Identification Number, which is located on the bar  code
below your mailing label.  The U.S. Census will likely continue to  receive
telephone submissions after April 21, but fewer representatives will  be
available to take data in this manner.



-- At Home: You may  schedule a home visit by a Census worker by calling
(toll free)  1-866-872-6868.  Census workers will be deployed to conduct 
home
visits  in May and June.  Though the U.S. Census attempts to  send
representatives to every home that failed to mail in a form, it is  unlikely
they will reach every American.  Thus scheduling a visit by  calling the 
Help
Line guarantees a visit to your home.



-- In  Person: Individuals can visit Census Questionnaire Centers in person
for  assistance with completing their forms.  To locate your local  office,
visit http://2010.census.gov/2010census/take10map/bcqac-textview.php  and
enter your zip code.



-- As a Group: chapters and  affiliates can request that a Census 
Partnership
Specialist conduct a Census  workshop and provide survey completion
assistance for a group.   Individuals will be required to bring the Census
form they received in the  mail because it lists their Census Identification
Numbers below the bar code  on the address label.  To find your local Census
Partnership Office,  visit
http://2010.census.gov/2010census/take10map/bcqac-textview.php
<http://2010.census.gov/2010census/take10map/bcqac-textview.php>  .



I urge every federationist to take advantage of one of the  alternate 
methods
for completing the Census as quickly as possible.  As  equal, contributing
members of society, we must be counted.

If you  have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me using  the
information below.

Regards,

Ronza M. Othman,  Esq.

Government Programs Specialist

National Federation of the  Blind

Phone:  (410) 659-9314, extension 2374

Email:  rothman at nfb.org



RMO/wmb


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From JFreeh at nfb.org  Wed Apr 14 09:13:17 2010
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 04:13:17 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind to Present Third
 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium
Message-ID: <auto-000147718814@mailfront2.g2host.com>

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

<mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org




National Federation of the Blind to Present
Third Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium




Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights Tom Perez and
Former Congressman Tony Coelho to be Keynote Speakers







Baltimore, Maryland (April 13, 2010): The 
National Federation of the Blind (NFB) will 
present the third Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law 
Symposium on April 15–16, 2010, at the NFB 
Jernigan Institute in Baltimore.  The symposium, 
entitled “Equality, Difference, and The Right to 
Live in the World” and named for NFB founder and 
pioneering legal scholar Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 
(1911–1968), will gather public officials, legal 
scholars, and disability rights advocates for a 
two-day seminar on the state of disability law in 
the United States and the world, and will discuss 
how disability rights may be advanced in the 
future.  Tom Perez, assistant attorney general 
for the civil rights division of the U.S. 
Department of Justice, and Tony Coelho, former 
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = 
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" 
/>California congressman and current chairman of 
the board of the American Association of People 
with Disabilities, will be the keynote speakers.

“Our first two Jacobus tenBroek symposiums were 
extraordinary events, and we are looking forward 
to once again hosting leading players and 
thinkers in the disability community,” said Dr. 
Marc Maurer, an attorney and President of the 
National Federation of the Blind.   “Disability 
law is rapidly changing at the national and 
international level, and this forum will provide 
an opportunity for everyone to assess 
developments and plan strategies in this dynamic 
and critically-important field.”



Other presenters at the 2010 symposium include 
the Honorable Richard Brown, chief judge of the 
Wisconsin Court of Appeals; Mark Weber, Vincent 
DePaul Professor of Law at DePaul University 
College of Law; and Dan Brock, director of the 
division of medical ethics at Harvard Medical School.



Dr. Jacobus tenBroek was a constitutional law 
scholar, a blind professor at Berkeley, and an 
author of treatises on the Fourteenth Amendment 
and social welfare.  Dr. tenBroek created the 
concept that civil rights should apply to 
disabled Americans, and he published extensively 
on the application of the law to those with 
disabilities.  His efforts to advance civil 
rights for the blind and others with disabilities 
included drafting the model White Cane Law, which 
has had a profound influence on the development 
of civil rights laws for the disabled throughout 
the United States, and publishing authoritative 
articles like “The Right to Live in the World: 
The Disabled in the Law of Torts.”



The proceedings of the symposium will be 
published in the Texas Journal on Civil Liberties and Civil Rights.



For more information about the National 
Federation of the Blind, please visit <http://www.nfb.org/>www.nfb.org.





###







About the National Federation of the Blind



With more than 50,000 members, the National 
Federation of the Blind is the largest and most 
influential membership organization of blind 
people in the United States.  The NFB improves 
blind people’s lives through advocacy, education, 
research, technology, and programs encouraging 
independence and self-confidence.  It is the 
leading force in the blindness field today and 
the voice of the nation's blind.  In January 2004 
the NFB opened the National Federation of the 
Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and 
training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind.


From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Wed Apr 14 23:00:48 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 19:00:48 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw:
Message-ID: <1C928697CEBA4ECE9A6087A249199DD7@StevePC>

    This is what you want, I think.  Please let me know if you can't open the attachment.  
I may be looking at doing our master bath this year as well.  I guess we will be making a priority list.
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: beth nutter 
To: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 6:08 PM


Attached is pricing for a few of the options we discussed today, please call with questions! Beth 261-9892

 

We can get together tomorrow to look at materials if you would like. Thanks Beth

 

 



              Beth Nutter

         Phone: 502-261-9892

              Fax:502-491-7887

             WWW.TRUROCK.COM

 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.107/2564 - Release Date: 12/14/09 07:37:00
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From dwilson.lists at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 07:57:01 2010
From: dwilson.lists at gmail.com (Derek Wilson)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:57:01 +0900
Subject: [blindlaw] ODA status update
Message-ID: <s2s6152341004190057rffb7e035gb7c43bd163c418ad@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

As of April 2010, Ontario is the only Canadian province with an
official disability Act.  The following info and website may be of
interest to people living in Ontario or those interested in the status
and goals of Ontario's provincial disability legislation as they
pertain to accessibility - in this case, website accessibility - for
persons with disabilities.  For more info, see the link below the
quote:

BLOCK QUOTE
Focus Area :  Information and Communications

Impact :  Service

Commitment :  Ongoing

The ministry will ensure that its public-facing website complies with
the Ontario government Online Design Program guidelines as well as
with international accessibility standards to make information easier
to access for people with disabilities.

Planned Action(s) : The ministry completed phase 1 of this project in
June 2009, improving navigation features and enhancing performance for
accessibility.  The ministry will continue with phase 2 of this
project this year and with phases 3 and 4 in future years.  Website
content will continue to be reviewed to ensure it is accessible.

Implementation Timeframe :  Oct 09 – Mar 11
END BLOCK QUOTE

Source:
Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care: 2009-2010 Accessibility Plan
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/publications/aplans/aplan10/aplan10.aspx#3

Regards,
Derek Wilson
-
Follow me on Twitter at:
culturemate
-
View my LinkedIn profile at:
http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
-
Read my blog at:
http://blindequality.wordpress.com/


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Wed Apr 21 14:44:37 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:44:37 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
Message-ID: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring less expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237

From ROthman at nfb.org  Wed Apr 21 16:35:45 2010
From: ROthman at nfb.org (Othman, Ronza)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:35:45 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B025FD26E@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local>

I tested it and found it largely accessible, though there were a few
shortcomings.  This was part of a project I did for the CLE Seminar put
on by the National Association of Blind Lawyers.  Contact me off-list if
you have other questions on low-cost online legal research alternatives.
Otherwise consider attending the NABL seminar at National Convention.

Ronza


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:45 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
less expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rothman%40nfb.
org


From rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com  Wed Apr 21 17:25:28 2010
From: rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:25:28 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
Message-ID: <D8486F3CD1194E93BC8DB1C7848C7CDE@RThomas>

I haven't used it lately, but when it was first introduced, it was very
accessible.



Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:45 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with screen
readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring less
expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
rm.com





From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Wed Apr 21 17:48:44 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:48:44 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
Message-ID: <B634D826B93A40779B6D1152DA557336@labarre>

Chuck, I stopped using LoisLaw in 2006 but at that time, it worked perfectly 
well with JAWS.  As for now, I have no idea.
Sorry,
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:44 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility


> Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with 
> screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring 
> less expensive options. Thanks.
> Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Wed Apr 21 18:18:22 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:18:22 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for which
I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is considering
a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
otherwise accessible version? 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
less expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
pima.gov




From dravant at ameritech.net  Wed Apr 21 18:54:56 2010
From: dravant at ameritech.net (denise avant)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:54:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
Message-ID: <544375.41095.qm@web81906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,
i've used lexis in my job for some years now. lexis does not have a text only version. there is a research attorney, who is employed there, at least he did two years ago. if you're using jfw, the site is accessible, though somewhat cluttered at times. i'm sure it works fine with windoweyes as well.


--- On Wed, 4/21/10, Susan Kelly <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov> wrote:


From: Susan Kelly <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 1:18 PM


Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for which
I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is considering
a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
otherwise accessible version? 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
less expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
pima.gov



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritech.net

From rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com  Wed Apr 21 19:44:07 2010
From: rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:44:07 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <544375.41095.qm@web81906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
	<544375.41095.qm@web81906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1ABA562104FE422DBCED247C175390AF@RThomas>

I have used Lexis. Once you get familiar with way the pages are laid out,
it is very accessible.

 

Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of denise avant
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:55 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Hello,
i've used lexis in my job for some years now. lexis does not have a text
only version. there is a research attorney, who is employed there, at least
he did two years ago. if you're using jfw, the site is accessible, though
somewhat cluttered at times. i'm sure it works fine with windoweyes as well.


--- On Wed, 4/21/10, Susan Kelly <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov> wrote:


From: Susan Kelly <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 1:18 PM


Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for which
I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is considering
a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
otherwise accessible version? 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
less expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
pima.gov



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritec
h.net
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
rm.com





From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Apr 22 18:56:11 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 11:56:11 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <D8486F3CD1194E93BC8DB1C7848C7CDE@RThomas>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
	<D8486F3CD1194E93BC8DB1C7848C7CDE@RThomas>
Message-ID: <A2129DF6B5374A1A97976FB037865E26@spike>

Thanks, their web site seemed quite accessible when I checked it out. Were 
there any other concerns that you had regarding its features and 
reliability?
Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno, ca 93721
559-266-9237
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility


>I haven't used it lately, but when it was first introduced, it was very
> accessible.
>
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
>
>
> Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
>
> THOMAS & ASSOCIATES
>
> www.californiaemployersattorneys.com
>
>
>
> Orange County Office
>
> 4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101
>
> Newport Beach, California 92660
>
> T: (949) 752-0101
>
> F: (949) 257-4756
>
> M: (949) 466-7238
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:45 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
> Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with 
> screen
> readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring less
> expensive options. Thanks.
> Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
> rm.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Apr 22 19:38:51 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:38:51 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
	<1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
Message-ID: <78311FA42F424B66B23657FB253F1DD1@spike>

I have used Lexis and found it to be accessible as one of the attorneys that 
I work for uses it. However, due to thelayout and such I find it harder to 
use d than Westlaw. Some of the features in Lexis weren't as accessible.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Susan Kelly" <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility


> Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
> regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for which
> I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is considering
> a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
> otherwise accessible version?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
> Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
> screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
> less expensive options. Thanks.
> Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
> pima.gov
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From cdanielsen8 at aol.com  Thu Apr 22 23:05:17 2010
From: cdanielsen8 at aol.com (Chris Danielsen)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 19:05:17 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
Message-ID: <03CE436C721B4201AD67019BB2093107@Scorpio13>

I used to use it in my law practice and I found it largely accessible. I
haven't been practicing law since 2003, however, so I don't know about the
status of it now.

Chris
 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:45 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with screen
readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring less
expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol.
com

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5045 (20100420) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5051 (20100422) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 04:50:04 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:50:04 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
Message-ID: <51F185BF89214D3C833681565B83F5E5@hometwxakonvzn>

Dear list, Am I making a mountian out of a molehill? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie 
To: RJ Sandefur 
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:41 AM
Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services


Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your mother. 

If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm Beaches at this time for training.

 

I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to help you in making your decision about training. 

 

I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because you attached it to your e-mail.

 

In order to assist you with training services, please call our office and ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 866-225-0794.

 

 

Bobbie Howard-Davis

District Administrator

.  


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services


Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy concerning out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center, which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state services:
Out of State Services
DIVISION POLICY 6.14

SUBJECT 
Out of State Services

EFFECTIVE DATE
July 9, 2003

REVISION DATE
February 14, 2008

EXPIRATION DATE
This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.

PURPOSE

To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.

AUTHORITY
34 CFR 361.50(b)

POLICY
The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively deny an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of the cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a service.

Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA PD-01-03:


      POLICY STATEMENT:  The State VR program must provide applicants
and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
procuring services.  To enable an individual to make such decisions,
the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
needed by the individual.  The VR agency has the responsibility to
implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now, I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur

From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 04:52:18 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
Message-ID: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn>

Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your feed back. RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie 
To: RJ Sandefur 
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services


Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your mother. 

If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm Beaches at this time for training.

 

I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to help you in making your decision about training. 

 

I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because you attached it to your e-mail.

 

In order to assist you with training services, please call our office and ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 866-225-0794.

 

 

Bobbie Howard-Davis

District Administrator




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services


Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy concerning out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center, which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state services:
Out of State Services
DIVISION POLICY 6.14

SUBJECT 
Out of State Services

EFFECTIVE DATE
July 9, 2003

REVISION DATE
February 14, 2008

EXPIRATION DATE
This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.

PURPOSE

To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.

AUTHORITY
34 CFR 361.50(b)

POLICY
The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively deny an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of the cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a service.

Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA PD-01-03:


      POLICY STATEMENT:  The State VR program must provide applicants
and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
procuring services.  To enable an individual to make such decisions,
the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
needed by the individual.  The VR agency has the responsibility to
implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now, I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
-------------- next part --------------
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From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Fri Apr 23 14:54:30 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 07:54:30 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <78311FA42F424B66B23657FB253F1DD1@spike>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
	<1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
	<78311FA42F424B66B23657FB253F1DD1@spike>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DDB@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

Thanks - I am hoping that our office stays with WestLaw.  Apparently it
has a new program which everyone is loving, though I would stick to the
text-only version...now, if we could only get the State Bar to hurry up
with producing the monthly magazine in a text-only format, or at least
PDF rather than imaging....  (Another battle for another day.)

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Thursday, 22 April, 2010 12:39 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

I have used Lexis and found it to be accessible as one of the attorneys
that 
I work for uses it. However, due to thelayout and such I find it harder
to 
use d than Westlaw. Some of the features in Lexis weren't as accessible.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Susan Kelly" <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility


> Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
> regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for
which
> I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is
considering
> a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
> otherwise accessible version?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
> Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
> screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
> less expensive options. Thanks.
> Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
> pima.gov
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc
global.net 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
pima.gov




From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Fri Apr 23 16:26:48 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:26:48 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DDB@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov><78311FA42F424B66B23657FB253F1DD1@spike>
	<1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DDB@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
Message-ID: <CA334D5C04C6487AAE6A0DF6CFF2D941@spike>

the sad part about it is that your state bar magazine was probably in an 
accessible format before it was imaged on to the web.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Susan Kelly" <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility


> Thanks - I am hoping that our office stays with WestLaw.  Apparently it
> has a new program which everyone is loving, though I would stick to the
> text-only version...now, if we could only get the State Bar to hurry up
> with producing the monthly magazine in a text-only format, or at least
> PDF rather than imaging....  (Another battle for another day.)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Thursday, 22 April, 2010 12:39 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
> I have used Lexis and found it to be accessible as one of the attorneys
> that
> I work for uses it. However, due to thelayout and such I find it harder
> to
> use d than Westlaw. Some of the features in Lexis weren't as accessible.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Susan Kelly" <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
>
>> Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
>> regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for
> which
>> I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is
> considering
>> a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
>> otherwise accessible version?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>>
>> Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
>> screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
>> less expensive options. Thanks.
>> Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
>> 1237 P Street
>> Fresno ca 93721
>> 559-266-9237
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
>> pima.gov
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc
> global.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
> pima.gov
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Fri Apr 23 18:55:21 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 11:55:21 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <CA334D5C04C6487AAE6A0DF6CFF2D941@spike>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov><78311FA42F424B66B23657FB253F1DD1@spike>
	<1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DDB@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
	<CA334D5C04C6487AAE6A0DF6CFF2D941@spike>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DE1@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

Probably so, since the articles themselves were likely typed in normal
word processing formats for submission.  The company which does the
production and imaging informed me that there is no PDF version, nor a
text-only site, and acknowledged its inaccessibility.  When I contacted
the State Bar (since this is often the first, only and/or most in-depth
presentation of matters all of is in Arizona are supposed to know), I
was told that there was a PDF version somewhere - not where or how to
access it, though - and that they had never had anyone request an
accessible format before!  In their defense, though, they did promise to
"work on it...."

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Friday, 23 April, 2010 9:27 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

the sad part about it is that your state bar magazine was probably in an

accessible format before it was imaged on to the web.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Susan Kelly" <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility


> Thanks - I am hoping that our office stays with WestLaw.  Apparently
it
> has a new program which everyone is loving, though I would stick to
the
> text-only version...now, if we could only get the State Bar to hurry
up
> with producing the monthly magazine in a text-only format, or at least
> PDF rather than imaging....  (Another battle for another day.)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Thursday, 22 April, 2010 12:39 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
> I have used Lexis and found it to be accessible as one of the
attorneys
> that
> I work for uses it. However, due to thelayout and such I find it
harder
> to
> use d than Westlaw. Some of the features in Lexis weren't as
accessible.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Susan Kelly" <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
>
>> Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
>> regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for
> which
>> I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is
> considering
>> a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
>> otherwise accessible version?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>>
>> Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
>> screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am
exploring
>> less expensive options. Thanks.
>> Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
>> 1237 P Street
>> Fresno ca 93721
>> 559-266-9237
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
>> pima.gov
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc
> global.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
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> pima.gov
>
>
>
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> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
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From David.B.Andrews at state.mn.us  Sat Apr 24 02:01:37 2010
From: David.B.Andrews at state.mn.us (Andrews,
	David B B (DEED))
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 21:01:37 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] New Accessible Diabetic Devices Available
Message-ID: <auto-000150491298@mailfront1.g2host.com>



From: Wilson, Joanne [mailto:JWilson at nfb.org]
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 1:43 PM
To: Andrews, David B B (DEED)
Subject: New Accessible Diabetic Devices Available

Dear Colleagues,

Five years ago, the NFB asked all the blood 
glucose meter companies to make a talking meter 
for our members.  Prodigy was the only company to 
step up and make a talking meter. At our request, 
they made the first talking Prodigy AutoCode™ 
meter.  They also worked with many NFB Team 
members for over a year and made the first fully 
audible Prodigy Voice™ meter allowing NFB Members 
with diabetes total independence. In 2008, we 
presented the NFB Access + Award to Prodigy for their Prodigy Voice™ meter.

The Count-A-Dose has been used for many years by 
blind diabetics, so they can independently fill 
their insulin syringes. We were told it would no 
longer be available and we asked Prodigy again to 
help us out.  Prodigy bought the patent rights to 
make the Count-A-Dose, and after some slight 
improvements, they released the new Prodigy 
Count-A-Dose® on April 1st, 2010.  The NFB 
Independence Market in Baltimore will be selling the Prodigy Count-A-Dose®

Later this year, Prodigy will also be releasing 
the first fully audible insulin pump, as well as 
a talking pill bottle, a laser lancing device, 
and other new accessible products. Please pass on 
this information on to blind diabetics.

Sincerely,

Joanne Wilson
Executive Director of Affiliate Action
National Federation of the Blind

From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 24 18:02:38 2010
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:02:38 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
 and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>


As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a head ache
 
> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
> 
> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your feed back. RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie 
> To: RJ Sandefur 
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
> 
> 
> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your mother. 
> 
> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm Beaches at this time for training.
> 
> 
> 
> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to help you in making your decision about training. 
> 
> 
> 
> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because you attached it to your e-mail.
> 
> 
> 
> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office and ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 866-225-0794.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bobbie Howard-Davis
> 
> District Administrator
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
> 
> 
> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy concerning out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center, which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state services:
> Out of State Services
> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
> 
> SUBJECT 
> Out of State Services
> 
> EFFECTIVE DATE
> July 9, 2003
> 
> REVISION DATE
> February 14, 2008
> 
> EXPIRATION DATE
> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
> 
> PURPOSE
> 
> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
> 
> AUTHORITY
> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
> 
> POLICY
> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively deny an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of the cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a service.
> 
> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA PD-01-03:
> 
> 
> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now, I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2

From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Sat Apr 24 20:44:24 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 16:44:24 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn>
	<BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC>

That is dishonest!

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


>
> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact 
> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with 
> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For 
> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the 
> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is 
> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not 
> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you 
> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper 
> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives 
> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the 
> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a 
> head ache
>
>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your 
>> feed back. RJ
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>> To: RJ Sandefur
>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>> concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your 
>> mother.
>>
>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can 
>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm 
>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to 
>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>
>>
>>
>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because you 
>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>
>>
>>
>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office and 
>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 
>> 866-225-0794.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>
>> District Administrator
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>> concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for 
>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy concerning 
>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center, 
>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the 
>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due 
>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having 
>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of 
>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be 
>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at 
>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state 
>> services:
>> Out of State Services
>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>
>> SUBJECT
>> Out of State Services
>>
>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>> July 9, 2003
>>
>> REVISION DATE
>> February 14, 2008
>>
>> EXPIRATION DATE
>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>
>> PURPOSE
>>
>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>
>> AUTHORITY
>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>
>> POLICY
>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for 
>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively deny 
>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an 
>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and 
>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the 
>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of the 
>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services 
>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, 
>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a 
>> service.
>>
>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But 
>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA 
>> PD-01-03:
>>
>>
>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this 
>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend 
>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, 
>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've 
>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know 
>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my 
>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make an 
>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a Seminary, 
>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my 
>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd 
>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do. 
>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the 
>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have 
>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal 
> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look 
> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your 
> inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From joramsey at cox.net  Sat Apr 24 21:45:38 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:45:38 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC>
Message-ID: <2EACBFA02CED480DAC762547353CE29A@noneeb869fea9a>

I agree with Steve. This is blatantly dishonest and could actually result in
the client ending up with no services at all.


John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's
policy concerning out of state services


That is dishonest!

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


>
> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will 
> infact
> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with 
> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For 
> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the 
> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is 
> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not 
> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you 
> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper 
> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives 
> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the 
> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a 
> head ache
>
>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like 
>> your
>> feed back. RJ
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>> To: RJ Sandefur
>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>> concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>> mother.
>>
>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we 
>> can
>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm 
>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice 
>> to
>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>
>>
>>
>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>> you
>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>
>>
>>
>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>> and
>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 
>> 866-225-0794.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>
>> District Administrator
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -----------
>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>> concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions 
>> for
>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy concerning

>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center, 
>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the 
>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due 
>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having 
>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of 
>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be 
>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at 
>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state 
>> services:
>> Out of State Services
>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>
>> SUBJECT
>> Out of State Services
>>
>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>> July 9, 2003
>>
>> REVISION DATE
>> February 14, 2008
>>
>> EXPIRATION DATE
>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>
>> PURPOSE
>>
>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>
>> AUTHORITY
>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>
>> POLICY
>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference 
>> for
>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively deny

>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an 
>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and 
>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the 
>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of the

>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services 
>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, 
>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a 
>> service.
>>
>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 
>> But
>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA 
>> PD-01-03:
>>
>>
>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants and 
>> individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to exercise 
>> informed choice throughout the VR process, including making decisions 
>> about the employment goal, VR services, service providers, settings 
>> for employment and service provision, and methods for procuring 
>> services. To enable an individual to make such decisions, the State 
>> VR agency must provide information, support and assistance needed by 
>> the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to implement 
>> policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop resources that 
>> enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR services to 
>> exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process; these 
>> policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with Federal 
>> statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean, 
>> that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB, 
>> due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, 
>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've 
>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you 
>> know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to 
>> get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order 
>> to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study 
>> with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was 
>> licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, 
>> and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord 
>> has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective 
>> minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive? 
>> Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as 
>> by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look 
> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
> your
> inbox.
>
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in
sightbb.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----



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02:31:00



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 21:46:47 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:46:47 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
	<94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC>
Message-ID: <B4088685FCD64AD4B635DB5FEE51EA67@hometwxakonvzn>

What's dishonest? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> That is dishonest!
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
> DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>
>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact
>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is
>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you
>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper
>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives
>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>> head ache
>>
>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's
>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your
>>> feed back. RJ
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>> mother.
>>>
>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can
>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to
>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>> you
>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>> and
>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>
>>> District Administrator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for
>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>> concerning
>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the
>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due
>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>> services:
>>> Out of State Services
>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>
>>> SUBJECT
>>> Out of State Services
>>>
>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>> July 9, 2003
>>>
>>> REVISION DATE
>>> February 14, 2008
>>>
>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>
>>> PURPOSE
>>>
>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>
>>> AUTHORITY
>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>
>>> POLICY
>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for
>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>> deny
>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>> the
>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>> service.
>>>
>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But
>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>> PD-01-03:
>>>
>>>
>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this
>>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend
>>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know
>>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my
>>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>> an
>>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>> Seminary,
>>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my
>>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd
>>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do.
>>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the
>>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have
>>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
>> your
>> inbox.
>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
> 02:31:00
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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02:31:00



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
> 



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 21:56:27 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:56:27 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
References: <2EACBFA02CED480DAC762547353CE29A@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <3CB0EE7B3E0F473096074B2FD260C252@hometwxakonvzn>

How or in what way is this being dishonest? Can you please email me off 
list, and tell me what my options are? My email adress is 
joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
Thanks RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


>I agree with Steve. This is blatantly dishonest and could actually result 
>in
> the client ending up with no services at all.
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
> That is dishonest!
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
> DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>
>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will
>> infact
>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is
>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you
>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper
>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives
>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>> head ache
>>
>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>>> DBS's
>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like
>>> your
>>> feed back. RJ
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>> mother.
>>>
>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we
>>> can
>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice
>>> to
>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because
>>> you
>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office
>>> and
>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>
>>> District Administrator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -----------
>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions
>>> for
>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>> concerning
>
>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the
>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due
>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>> services:
>>> Out of State Services
>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>
>>> SUBJECT
>>> Out of State Services
>>>
>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>> July 9, 2003
>>>
>>> REVISION DATE
>>> February 14, 2008
>>>
>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>
>>> PURPOSE
>>>
>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>
>>> AUTHORITY
>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>
>>> POLICY
>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference
>>> for
>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>> deny
>
>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>> the
>
>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>> service.
>>>
>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008
>>> But
>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>> PD-01-03:
>>>
>>>
>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants and
>>> individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to exercise
>>> informed choice throughout the VR process, including making decisions
>>> about the employment goal, VR services, service providers, settings
>>> for employment and service provision, and methods for procuring
>>> services. To enable an individual to make such decisions, the State
>>> VR agency must provide information, support and assistance needed by
>>> the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to implement
>>> policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop resources that
>>> enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR services to
>>> exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process; these
>>> policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with Federal
>>> statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean,
>>> that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB,
>>> due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you
>>> know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to
>>> get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order
>>> to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study
>>> with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was
>>> licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom,
>>> and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord
>>> has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective
>>> minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive?
>>> Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as
>>> by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from
>> your
>> inbox.
>>
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in
> sightbb.com
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
> 02:31:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net  Sat Apr 24 23:22:17 2010
From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:22:17 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl><94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC>
	<B4088685FCD64AD4B635DB5FEE51EA67@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <2E32A21BCAC44F8AAE44F1D74866FEF0@HP8730notebook>

duh,
what do you think?
falsifying your physical living address!
Bryan Schulz


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> What's dishonest? RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>> That is dishonest!
>>
>> Steve
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>>>
>>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact
>>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That 
>>> is
>>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that 
>>> you
>>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the 
>>> cheaper
>>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that 
>>> lives
>>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>>> head ache
>>>
>>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's
>>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your
>>>> feed back. RJ
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>>> mother.
>>>>
>>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can
>>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to
>>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>>> you
>>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>>> and
>>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>>
>>>> District Administrator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for
>>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>>> concerning
>>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find 
>>>> the
>>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, 
>>>> due
>>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>>> services:
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>>
>>>> SUBJECT
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>>
>>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>> July 9, 2003
>>>>
>>>> REVISION DATE
>>>> February 14, 2008
>>>>
>>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>>
>>>> PURPOSE
>>>>
>>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>>
>>>> AUTHORITY
>>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>>
>>>> POLICY
>>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for
>>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>>> deny
>>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>>> the
>>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>>> service.
>>>>
>>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But
>>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>>> PD-01-03:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this
>>>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend
>>>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know
>>>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my
>>>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>>> an
>>>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>>> Seminary,
>>>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my
>>>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd
>>>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do.
>>>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have 
>>>> the
>>>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I 
>>>> have
>>>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
>>> your
>>> inbox.
>>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
>> 02:31:00
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10 
> 02:31:00
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 23:53:43 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 19:53:43 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl><94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC><B4088685FCD64AD4B635DB5FEE51EA67@hometwxakonvzn>
	<2E32A21BCAC44F8AAE44F1D74866FEF0@HP8730notebook>
Message-ID: <757D1E1286BB4F77A120A1B1750C442A@hometwxakonvzn>

Yeh, that was a duh----- Original Message ----- ... I thought he was talking 
about DBS.
From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> duh,
> what do you think?
> falsifying your physical living address!
> Bryan Schulz
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>> What's dishonest? RJ
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and 
>> DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>>> That is dishonest!
>>>
>>> Steve
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>>> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>>> DBS's
>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact
>>>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>>>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>>>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and 
>>>> the
>>>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That 
>>>> is
>>>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>>>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that 
>>>> you
>>>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the 
>>>> cheaper
>>>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that 
>>>> lives
>>>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>>>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>>>> head ache
>>>>
>>>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>>>>> DBS's
>>>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like 
>>>>> your
>>>>> feed back. RJ
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>>>> mother.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can
>>>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the 
>>>>> Palm
>>>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to
>>>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>>>> you
>>>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>>>> and
>>>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>>>
>>>>> District Administrator
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for
>>>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>>>> concerning
>>>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find 
>>>>> the
>>>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, 
>>>>> due
>>>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to 
>>>>> having
>>>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking 
>>>>> at
>>>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>>>> services:
>>>>> Out of State Services
>>>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>>>
>>>>> SUBJECT
>>>>> Out of State Services
>>>>>
>>>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>>> July 9, 2003
>>>>>
>>>>> REVISION DATE
>>>>> February 14, 2008
>>>>>
>>>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> PURPOSE
>>>>>
>>>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>>>
>>>>> AUTHORITY
>>>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>>>
>>>>> POLICY
>>>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference 
>>>>> for
>>>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>>>> deny
>>>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>>>> the
>>>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation 
>>>>> plan,
>>>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>>>> service.
>>>>>
>>>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 
>>>>> But
>>>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in 
>>>>> RSA
>>>>> PD-01-03:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>>>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>>>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>>>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>>>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>>>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>>>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>>>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>>>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>>>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>>>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>>>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>>>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this
>>>>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend
>>>>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with 
>>>>> DBS,
>>>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you 
>>>>> know
>>>>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get 
>>>>> my
>>>>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>>>> an
>>>>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>>>> Seminary,
>>>>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my
>>>>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd
>>>>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do.
>>>>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have 
>>>>> the
>>>>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I 
>>>>> have
>>>>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>>>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>>>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>>>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
>>>> your
>>>> inbox.
>>>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
>>> 02:31:00
>>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10 
>> 02:31:00
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 03:52:28 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 23:52:28 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [nabs-l] informed choice
Message-ID: <25AEFA7A9393461A9407AA54AC3E75BD@hometwxakonvzn>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] informed choice


> Hi all,
>
> It sounds like Beth has already gone through this justification
> process and received approval for funding to go to CCB. The problem is
> that rehab is only agreeing to pay the in-state rate, which is less
> than what CCB charges per month. The question is, Can rehab legally be
> obligated to provide not just partial funding, but full funding, for
> out-of-state training? I don't know the answer to that.
>
> Arielle
>
> On 4/24/10, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>> Actually, someone trying for something out of the ordinary with rehab
>> should remember that they have an employment goal, and an
>> Individualized Plan for Employment.  They have to show how the
>> alternative they propose will get them to their goal, while the
>> resources the agency normally uses would not do so.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 08:31 PM 4/24/2010, you wrote:
>>>Focus more on the "daily use of skills" part, because any center can
>>>claim they teach you braille. THey put you in there for an hour and 
>>>that's
>>> it.
>>>Its not what you learn at LCB that sets it apart, its how you learn
>>>it--the fact that its blind teaching the blind, and that you have to
>>>use your skills on a daily bases, not because its required to pass,
>>>but because you absolutely have to.
>>>
>>>
>>>Jorge
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Apr 25 07:31:06 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 00:31:06 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn>
	<BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F85DB6ACA92B4A5B82AE2E124136AED4@spike>

I raised the question in the past but did not get an answer. Therefore, I 
will restate it.
What does the NFB do to advocate for those in states whose state agencies do 
not provide funding for them to attend NFB centers. Secondly, what other 
means of funding are available for blind people to attend NFB centers who 
for various reasons do not receive VR funding? In other words, does the NFB 
m;ake funds available for those worthy and willing to attend but have no 
other means?
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


>
> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact 
> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with 
> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For 
> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the 
> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is 
> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not 
> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you 
> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper 
> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives 
> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the 
> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a 
> head ache
>
>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your 
>> feed back. RJ
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>> To: RJ Sandefur
>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>> concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your 
>> mother.
>>
>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can 
>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm 
>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to 
>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>
>>
>>
>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because you 
>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>
>>
>>
>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office and 
>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 
>> 866-225-0794.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>
>> District Administrator
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>> concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for 
>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy concerning 
>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center, 
>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the 
>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due 
>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having 
>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of 
>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be 
>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at 
>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state 
>> services:
>> Out of State Services
>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>
>> SUBJECT
>> Out of State Services
>>
>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>> July 9, 2003
>>
>> REVISION DATE
>> February 14, 2008
>>
>> EXPIRATION DATE
>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>
>> PURPOSE
>>
>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>
>> AUTHORITY
>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>
>> POLICY
>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for 
>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively deny 
>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an 
>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and 
>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the 
>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of the 
>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services 
>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, 
>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a 
>> service.
>>
>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But 
>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA 
>> PD-01-03:
>>
>>
>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this 
>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend 
>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, 
>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've 
>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know 
>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my 
>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make an 
>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a Seminary, 
>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my 
>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd 
>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do. 
>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the 
>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have 
>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now, I 
>> didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal 
>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look 
>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your 
> inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Apr 25 08:10:28 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 01:10:28 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <2EACBFA02CED480DAC762547353CE29A@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <2EACBFA02CED480DAC762547353CE29A@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <7257BB046310472A9C22894204A4F6A8@spike>

Especially as legal professionals we can't in good conscience engage in 
advising people to engage in illegal or fraudulent activity to obtain 
services.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


>I agree with Steve. This is blatantly dishonest and could actually result 
>in
> the client ending up with no services at all.
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
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>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
> That is dishonest!
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
> DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>
>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will
>> infact
>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is
>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you
>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper
>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives
>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>> head ache
>>
>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>>> DBS's
>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like
>>> your
>>> feed back. RJ
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>> mother.
>>>
>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we
>>> can
>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice
>>> to
>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because
>>> you
>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office
>>> and
>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>
>>> District Administrator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -----------
>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions
>>> for
>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>> concerning
>
>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the
>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due
>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>> services:
>>> Out of State Services
>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>
>>> SUBJECT
>>> Out of State Services
>>>
>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>> July 9, 2003
>>>
>>> REVISION DATE
>>> February 14, 2008
>>>
>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>
>>> PURPOSE
>>>
>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>
>>> AUTHORITY
>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>
>>> POLICY
>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference
>>> for
>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>> deny
>
>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>> the
>
>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>> service.
>>>
>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008
>>> But
>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>> PD-01-03:
>>>
>>>
>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants and
>>> individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to exercise
>>> informed choice throughout the VR process, including making decisions
>>> about the employment goal, VR services, service providers, settings
>>> for employment and service provision, and methods for procuring
>>> services. To enable an individual to make such decisions, the State
>>> VR agency must provide information, support and assistance needed by
>>> the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to implement
>>> policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop resources that
>>> enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR services to
>>> exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process; these
>>> policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with Federal
>>> statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean,
>>> that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB,
>>> due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you
>>> know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to
>>> get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order
>>> to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study
>>> with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was
>>> licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom,
>>> and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord
>>> has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective
>>> minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive?
>>> Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as
>>> by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from
>> your
>> inbox.
>>
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in
> sightbb.com
>
>
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> ----
>
>
>
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From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Apr 25 08:11:44 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 01:11:44 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <B4088685FCD64AD4B635DB5FEE51EA67@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl><94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC>
	<B4088685FCD64AD4B635DB5FEE51EA67@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <1A375FF0A6524225B631D119C080158D@spike>

The dishonesty is claiming to be a resident of a state when you are not and 
you have no intention of legally establishing residency in that state.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> What's dishonest? RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>> That is dishonest!
>>
>> Steve
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>>>
>>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact
>>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That 
>>> is
>>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that 
>>> you
>>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the 
>>> cheaper
>>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that 
>>> lives
>>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>>> head ache
>>>
>>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's
>>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your
>>>> feed back. RJ
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>>> mother.
>>>>
>>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can
>>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to
>>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>>> you
>>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>>> and
>>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>>
>>>> District Administrator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for
>>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>>> concerning
>>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find 
>>>> the
>>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, 
>>>> due
>>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>>> services:
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>>
>>>> SUBJECT
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>>
>>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>> July 9, 2003
>>>>
>>>> REVISION DATE
>>>> February 14, 2008
>>>>
>>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>>
>>>> PURPOSE
>>>>
>>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>>
>>>> AUTHORITY
>>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>>
>>>> POLICY
>>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for
>>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>>> deny
>>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>>> the
>>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>>> service.
>>>>
>>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But
>>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>>> PD-01-03:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this
>>>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend
>>>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know
>>>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my
>>>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>>> an
>>>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>>> Seminary,
>>>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my
>>>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd
>>>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do.
>>>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have 
>>>> the
>>>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I 
>>>> have
>>>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
>>> your
>>> inbox.
>>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
>> 02:31:00
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>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10 
> 02:31:00
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>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 15:48:32 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:48:32 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [nabs-l] informed choice
Message-ID: <62E64636CDDB41368621B99AD1896732@hometwxakonvzn>

Is this person correct?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Briley Pollard" <brileyp at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] informed choice


> Informed choice as I understand it states that if another out of state 
> facility can provide services that the in state facility cannot, then the 
> state in question is to pay full funding for the training. If you can 
> outline the differences, they should pay for all of it. I'd appeal that 
> decision, Beth.
>
> Briley
> On Apr 25, 2010, at 12:07 AM, RJ Sandefur wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, she's right, because she read the letter to me. I've atteched RSA's 
>> policy concerninginformed choice, and DBS's policy on the subject. 
>> RJ -----  Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] informed choice
>>
>>
>>> I had the executive director write the letter of justification and
>>> when I got it, I read it, and it was the best letter I could've
>>> written.  They're only sponsoring the in-state portion, so I have to
>>> get more money in order to pay for this thing in full.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 4/24/10, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>>>> Actually, someone trying for something out of the ordinary with rehab
>>>> should remember that they have an employment goal, and an
>>>> Individualized Plan for Employment.  They have to show how the
>>>> alternative they propose will get them to their goal, while the
>>>> resources the agency normally uses would not do so.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> At 08:31 PM 4/24/2010, you wrote:
>>>>> Focus more on the "daily use of skills" part, because any center can
>>>>> claim they teach you braille. THey put you in there for an hour and 
>>>>> that's
>>>>> it.
>>>>> Its not what you learn at LCB that sets it apart, its how you learn
>>>>> it--the fact that its blind teaching the blind, and that you have to
>>>>> use your skills on a daily bases, not because its required to pass,
>>>>> but because you absolutely have to.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jorge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>> <pd-01-03.doc><Standefur Informed 
>> Choice.pdf>_______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 16:48:02 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 12:48:02 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [nabs-l] informed choice
Message-ID: <2A94031B4A7F4D82AF68C9BC3E23799A@hometwxakonvzn>

What does the law say concerning this issue?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] informed choice


> >From what I understand, the state government gives the commission and 
> >other such agencies enough funds for programs, even if they are out of 
> >state, and, if you can justify it, I do believe that they are legally 
> >bound to pay the full sum, due to the fact that the government gives them 
> >enough money to do so.
>
> I suggest you talk with an attorney though, because it looks like the 
> thing you have to figure out is if they are legally bound to pay full 
> price. If they are, you can go ahead with your case, but if they're not 
> than you're basically by yourself.
>
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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From dandrews at visi.com  Sun Apr 25 18:02:24 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:02:24 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
 and  Db's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <F85DB6ACA92B4A5B82AE2E124136AED4@spike>
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn>
	<BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
	<F85DB6ACA92B4A5B82AE2E124136AED4@spike>
Message-ID: <auto-000149623185@mailfront2.g2host.com>

This is not really an appropriate question for Blind Law.  While 
someone could jump through several hoops and say that it encompassed 
legal considerations -- this is a stretch at best.

Dave

At 02:31 AM 4/25/2010, you wrote:
>I raised the question in the past but did not get an answer. 
>Therefore, I will restate it.
>What does the NFB do to advocate for those in states whose state 
>agencies do not provide funding for them to attend NFB centers. 
>Secondly, what other means of funding are available for blind people 
>to attend NFB centers who for various reasons do not receive VR 
>funding? In other words, does the NFB m;ake funds available for 
>those worthy and willing to attend but have no other means?
>Chuck
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:02 AM
>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, 
>and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>
>>As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will 
>>infact deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can 
>>come up with specific reason that you need to attend that center of 
>>their own. For example fi you were going to go into a specific 
>>vocational field and the other center had a program geared toward 
>>it while theirs did not. That is what the statement on out of state 
>>triaining is saying. If you can not show that there is a training 
>>aspect that will be provided their that you need that is not 
>>offered in state then they will only support the cheaper in state 
>>training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives in 
>>lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the 
>>lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less 
>>of a head ache
>>
>>>From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>>>DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like 
>>>your feed back. RJ
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>To: RJ Sandefur
>>>Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
>>>policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>>Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your mother.
>>>
>>>If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we 
>>>can reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of 
>>>the Palm Beaches at this time for training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed 
>>>Choice to help you in making your decision about training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, 
>>>because you attached it to your e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>In order to assist you with training services, please call our 
>>>office and ask to have your case reopen for services at 
>>>561-681-2448 or 866-225-0794.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>
>>>District Administrator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>>>concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>>Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions 
>>>for you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>>concerning out of state services. In 1999, I attended the 
>>>rehabilitation center, which is now the orientation and adjustment 
>>>center, and did not find the experience to be a pleasant one. In 
>>>2004, I closed my case with DBS, due to a disagreement with my 
>>>councilor at the time. However, due to having recently lost my 
>>>mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of some 
>>>adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be 
>>>conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was 
>>>looking at the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning 
>>>out of state services:
>>>Out of State Services
>>>DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>
>>>SUBJECT
>>>Out of State Services
>>>
>>>EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>July 9, 2003
>>>
>>>REVISION DATE
>>>February 14, 2008
>>>
>>>EXPIRATION DATE
>>>This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>
>>>PURPOSE
>>>
>>>To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>
>>>AUTHORITY
>>>34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>
>>>POLICY
>>>The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a 
>>>preference for in-State services, provided that the preference 
>>>does not effectively deny an individual a necessary service. If 
>>>the individual chooses an out-of-State service at a higher cost 
>>>than an in-State service, and either service would meet the 
>>>individual's rehabilitation needs, the designated State unit is 
>>>not responsible for those costs in excess of the cost of the 
>>>in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services provides a 
>>>unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, the 
>>>Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a service.
>>>
>>>Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 
>>>2008 But compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated 
>>>in 2001 in RSA PD-01-03:
>>>
>>>
>>>POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>>and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>>exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>>decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>>settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>>procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>>the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>>needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>>implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>>resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>>services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>>these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>>Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does 
>>>this mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request 
>>>to attend LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new 
>>>case with DBS, since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your 
>>>convience, I've attached a document explaining what LCB is, 
>>>although I'm shure you know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only 
>>>an inquiry, and I wish to get my facts so that I'll be able to 
>>>have enough information in order to make an informed choice as to 
>>>where to go from here. I did study with a Seminary, and obtain my 
>>>master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my church to 
>>>preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd want 
>>>me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do. 
>>>However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't 
>>>have the blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I 
>>>have, is I have learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. 
>>>In 2004, until now, I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a 
>>>batchors degree in criminal justice. Another not so wise disision 
>>>on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look forward to your answer. Sencerly, 
>>>Robert Sandefur



From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Sun Apr 25 23:00:41 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:00:41 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <7257BB046310472A9C22894204A4F6A8@spike>
References: <2EACBFA02CED480DAC762547353CE29A@noneeb869fea9a>
	<7257BB046310472A9C22894204A4F6A8@spike>
Message-ID: <5299EB507DCF4C568552ED4FEBCAC2C7@StevePC>

No kidding!!
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 4:10 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> Especially as legal professionals we can't in good conscience engage in
> advising people to engage in illegal or fraudulent activity to obtain
> services.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>I agree with Steve. This is blatantly dishonest and could actually result
>>in
>> the client ending up with no services at all.
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication
>> in
>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated 
>> printed
>> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
>> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal 
>> and/or
>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that
>> email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and 
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> That is dishonest!
>>
>> Steve
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>>>
>>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will
>>> infact
>>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That 
>>> is
>>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that 
>>> you
>>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the 
>>> cheaper
>>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that 
>>> lives
>>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>>> head ache
>>>
>>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>>>> DBS's
>>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like
>>>> your
>>>> feed back. RJ
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>>> mother.
>>>>
>>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we
>>>> can
>>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice
>>>> to
>>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because
>>>> you
>>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office
>>>> and
>>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>>
>>>> District Administrator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -----------
>>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions
>>>> for
>>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy
>>>> concerning
>>
>>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find 
>>>> the
>>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, 
>>>> due
>>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>>> services:
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>>
>>>> SUBJECT
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>>
>>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>> July 9, 2003
>>>>
>>>> REVISION DATE
>>>> February 14, 2008
>>>>
>>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>>
>>>> PURPOSE
>>>>
>>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>>
>>>> AUTHORITY
>>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>>
>>>> POLICY
>>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference
>>>> for
>>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively
>>>> deny
>>
>>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of
>>>> the
>>
>>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>>> service.
>>>>
>>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008
>>>> But
>>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>>> PD-01-03:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants and
>>>> individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to exercise
>>>> informed choice throughout the VR process, including making decisions
>>>> about the employment goal, VR services, service providers, settings
>>>> for employment and service provision, and methods for procuring
>>>> services. To enable an individual to make such decisions, the State
>>>> VR agency must provide information, support and assistance needed by
>>>> the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to implement
>>>> policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop resources that
>>>> enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR services to
>>>> exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process; these
>>>> policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with Federal
>>>> statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean,
>>>> that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB,
>>>> due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you
>>>> know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to
>>>> get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order
>>>> to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study
>>>> with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was
>>>> licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom,
>>>> and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord
>>>> has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective
>>>> minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive?
>>>> Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as
>>>> by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from
>>> your
>>> inbox.
>>>
>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
>> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in
>> sightbb.com
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
>> 02:31:00
>>
>>
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>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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02:31:00
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From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Sun Apr 25 23:03:28 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:03:28 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <3CB0EE7B3E0F473096074B2FD260C252@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <2EACBFA02CED480DAC762547353CE29A@noneeb869fea9a>
	<3CB0EE7B3E0F473096074B2FD260C252@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <4BCAE8736D31404F8AEFD24EE4A5ACF1@StevePC>

Are you a fool or what????  You are falsifying an address for somewhere 
where you don't reside!
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> How or in what way is this being dishonest? Can you please email me off
> list, and tell me what my options are? My email adress is
> joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
> Thanks RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 5:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>I agree with Steve. This is blatantly dishonest and could actually result
>>in
>> the client ending up with no services at all.
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication
>> in
>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated 
>> printed
>> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
>> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal 
>> and/or
>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that
>> email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and 
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> That is dishonest!
>>
>> Steve
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>>>
>>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will
>>> infact
>>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That 
>>> is
>>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that 
>>> you
>>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the 
>>> cheaper
>>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that 
>>> lives
>>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>>> head ache
>>>
>>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>>>> DBS's
>>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like
>>>> your
>>>> feed back. RJ
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>>> mother.
>>>>
>>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we
>>>> can
>>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice
>>>> to
>>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because
>>>> you
>>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office
>>>> and
>>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>>
>>>> District Administrator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -----------
>>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions
>>>> for
>>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy
>>>> concerning
>>
>>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find 
>>>> the
>>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, 
>>>> due
>>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>>> services:
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>>
>>>> SUBJECT
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>>
>>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>> July 9, 2003
>>>>
>>>> REVISION DATE
>>>> February 14, 2008
>>>>
>>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>>
>>>> PURPOSE
>>>>
>>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>>
>>>> AUTHORITY
>>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>>
>>>> POLICY
>>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference
>>>> for
>>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively
>>>> deny
>>
>>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of
>>>> the
>>
>>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>>> service.
>>>>
>>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008
>>>> But
>>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>>> PD-01-03:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants and
>>>> individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to exercise
>>>> informed choice throughout the VR process, including making decisions
>>>> about the employment goal, VR services, service providers, settings
>>>> for employment and service provision, and methods for procuring
>>>> services. To enable an individual to make such decisions, the State
>>>> VR agency must provide information, support and assistance needed by
>>>> the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to implement
>>>> policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop resources that
>>>> enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR services to
>>>> exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process; these
>>>> policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with Federal
>>>> statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean,
>>>> that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB,
>>>> due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you
>>>> know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to
>>>> get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order
>>>> to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study
>>>> with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was
>>>> licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom,
>>>> and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord
>>>> has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective
>>>> minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive?
>>>> Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as
>>>> by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from
>>> your
>>> inbox.
>>>
>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
>> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in
>> sightbb.com
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
>> 02:31:00
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


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02:31:00
-------------- next part --------------

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From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 26 00:12:45 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:12:45 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
	<94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC>
Message-ID: <CA8B5724DECC4462AC884B048081EB3A@Rob>

Colleagues, I tend to agree with Mr. Deeley. This is analagous to the 
scandal back in the early 1990s when Baguan Shri RaNnish used local 
addresses to register homeless people to vote in his community to have an 
impact on national andlocal elections. He too got caught.
Rob Tabor
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> That is dishonest!
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
> DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>
>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact
>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is
>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you
>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper
>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives
>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>> head ache
>>
>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's
>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your
>>> feed back. RJ
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>> mother.
>>>
>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can
>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to
>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>> you
>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>> and
>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>
>>> District Administrator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for
>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>> concerning
>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the
>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due
>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>> services:
>>> Out of State Services
>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>
>>> SUBJECT
>>> Out of State Services
>>>
>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>> July 9, 2003
>>>
>>> REVISION DATE
>>> February 14, 2008
>>>
>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>
>>> PURPOSE
>>>
>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>
>>> AUTHORITY
>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>
>>> POLICY
>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for
>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>> deny
>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>> the
>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>> service.
>>>
>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But
>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>> PD-01-03:
>>>
>>>
>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this
>>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend
>>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know
>>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my
>>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>> an
>>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>> Seminary,
>>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my
>>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd
>>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do.
>>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the
>>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have
>>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
>> your
>> inbox.
>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
> 02:31:00
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10 
02:31:00



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglobal.net
> 



From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 26 00:32:17 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:32:17 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
	<F85DB6ACA92B4A5B82AE2E124136AED4@spike>
Message-ID: <C9F9E6570C99493E88453585FCEE6E44@Rob>

Good evening Chuck and listers.
I can't speak for other state affiliates, but I know that here in the land 
of Oz, (Kansas) <smile> we are constantly advocating with the rehab 
commissioner to send newly blinded Kansas residents to CCB, Ruston LA, and 
other high quality prevocational blindness skills training programs. I 
suspect the pressure to do so will intensify after April 30, (that's this 
coming Friday) which will be the last day of operations for the rehab center 
for the blind which has been located in Topeka Kansas since the 1940s. 
Beginning Mayy 1, there will in fact be two justifications if not 
imparatives for doing so. First, there will be no comprehensive rehab 
training facilities in Kansas to make blindness skills training available. 
Secondly, the administrative and operational costs savings from no longer 
having to operate a rehab facility in Kansas will arguably create a funding 
stream that can be transferred to meet the prevocational rehab training 
needs of Kansas residents. However, we have one other wild card in the poker 
deck. Michael Donnelly, the current commish, is dangling financial carrots 
to various organizations to provide "community based" categorical services. 
I suspect this is a transparently inartful dodge to avoid sending taxpayer 
money out of Kansas. stay tuned. There will no doubt be more in the 
continuing saga.
best regards
Rob Tabor vice president Jayhawk Chapter NFB of Kansas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


>I raised the question in the past but did not get an answer. Therefore, I 
>will restate it.
> What does the NFB do to advocate for those in states whose state agencies 
> do not provide funding for them to attend NFB centers. Secondly, what 
> other means of funding are available for blind people to attend NFB 
> centers who for various reasons do not receive VR funding? In other words, 
> does the NFB m;ake funds available for those worthy and willing to attend 
> but have no other means?
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
> DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>
>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact 
>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with 
>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For 
>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the 
>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is 
>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not 
>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you 
>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper 
>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives 
>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the 
>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a 
>> head ache
>>
>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your 
>>> feed back. RJ
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your 
>>> mother.
>>>
>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can 
>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm 
>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to 
>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>> you attached it to your e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>> and ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 
>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>
>>> District Administrator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for 
>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>> concerning out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation 
>>> center, which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not 
>>> find the experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with 
>>> DBS, due to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due 
>>> to having recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in 
>>> need of some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should 
>>> be conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking 
>>> at the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state 
>>> services:
>>> Out of State Services
>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>
>>> SUBJECT
>>> Out of State Services
>>>
>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>> July 9, 2003
>>>
>>> REVISION DATE
>>> February 14, 2008
>>>
>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>
>>> PURPOSE
>>>
>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>
>>> AUTHORITY
>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>
>>> POLICY
>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for 
>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>> deny an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an 
>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and 
>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the 
>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>> the cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services 
>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, 
>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a 
>>> service.
>>>
>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But 
>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA 
>>> PD-01-03:
>>>
>>>
>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this 
>>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend 
>>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, 
>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've 
>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know 
>>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my 
>>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>> an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>> Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed 
>>> by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, 
>>> she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to 
>>> do. However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have 
>>> the blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I 
>>> have learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until 
>>> now, I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in 
>>> criminal justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I 
>>> look forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
>> your inbox.
>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglobal.net 



From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 26 00:44:17 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:44:17 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and  Db's policy concerning out of state services
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl><F85DB6ACA92B4A5B82AE2E124136AED4@spike>
	<auto-000149623185@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <B5932B2B9D734718A1A6268444E7B906@Rob>

David, sorry for jumping the gun. I had not seen your determination that the 
discussion was off topic before responding. Have a great evening
Rob Tabor
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and Db's 
policy concerning out of state services


> This is not really an appropriate question for Blind Law.  While someone 
> could jump through several hoops and say that it encompassed legal 
> considerations -- this is a stretch at best.
>
> Dave
>
> At 02:31 AM 4/25/2010, you wrote:
>>I raised the question in the past but did not get an answer. Therefore, I 
>>will restate it.
>>What does the NFB do to advocate for those in states whose state agencies 
>>do not provide funding for them to attend NFB centers. Secondly, what 
>>other means of funding are available for blind people to attend NFB 
>>centers who for various reasons do not receive VR funding? In other words, 
>>does the NFB m;ake funds available for those worthy and willing to attend 
>>but have no other means?
>>Chuck
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>>To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:02 AM
>>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>>DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>>>
>>>As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact 
>>>deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with 
>>>specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For 
>>>example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the 
>>>other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is 
>>>what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not 
>>>show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you 
>>>need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper 
>>>in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives 
>>>in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the 
>>>lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a 
>>>head ache
>>>
>>>>From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>>To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>>Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
>>>>policy concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your 
>>>>feed back. RJ
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>>To: RJ Sandefur
>>>>Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>>Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>>>>concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your 
>>>>mother.
>>>>
>>>>If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can 
>>>>reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm 
>>>>Beaches at this time for training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to 
>>>>help you in making your decision about training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>>>you attached it to your e-mail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>>>and ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 
>>>>866-225-0794.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>>
>>>>District Administrator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>>To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>>Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>>>>concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for 
>>>>you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>>>concerning out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation 
>>>>center, which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not 
>>>>find the experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with 
>>>>DBS, due to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due 
>>>>to having recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in 
>>>>need of some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should 
>>>>be conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking 
>>>>at the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state 
>>>>services:
>>>>Out of State Services
>>>>DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>>
>>>>SUBJECT
>>>>Out of State Services
>>>>
>>>>EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>>July 9, 2003
>>>>
>>>>REVISION DATE
>>>>February 14, 2008
>>>>
>>>>EXPIRATION DATE
>>>>This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>>
>>>>PURPOSE
>>>>
>>>>To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>>
>>>>AUTHORITY
>>>>34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>>
>>>>POLICY
>>>>The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for 
>>>>in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>>>deny an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an 
>>>>out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and 
>>>>either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the 
>>>>designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>>>the cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services 
>>>>provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, 
>>>>the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a 
>>>>service.
>>>>
>>>>Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But 
>>>>compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA 
>>>>PD-01-03:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>>>and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>>>exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>>>decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>>>settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>>>procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>>>the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>>>needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>>>implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>>>resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>>>services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>>>these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>>>Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this 
>>>>mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend 
>>>>LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, 
>>>>since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've 
>>>>attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know 
>>>>who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my 
>>>>facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>>>an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>>>Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed 
>>>>by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, 
>>>>she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to 
>>>>do. However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have 
>>>>the blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I 
>>>>have learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until 
>>>>now, I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in 
>>>>criminal justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I 
>>>>look forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglobal.net 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 26 05:04:42 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:04:42 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [nabs-l] informed choice
In-Reply-To: <62E64636CDDB41368621B99AD1896732@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <62E64636CDDB41368621B99AD1896732@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <45FAFF3DC5C24751BD2E41F6286D3912@spike>

AS a consumer you have the right to appeal any decision that is made by a 
state rehab agency through the hearing process and ultimately in a law suit.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 8:48 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [nabs-l] informed choice


> Is this person correct?
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Briley Pollard" <brileyp at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] informed choice
>
>
>> Informed choice as I understand it states that if another out of state 
>> facility can provide services that the in state facility cannot, then the 
>> state in question is to pay full funding for the training. If you can 
>> outline the differences, they should pay for all of it. I'd appeal that 
>> decision, Beth.
>>
>> Briley
>> On Apr 25, 2010, at 12:07 AM, RJ Sandefur wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, she's right, because she read the letter to me. I've atteched RSA's 
>>> policy concerninginformed choice, and DBS's policy on the subject. 
>>> RJ -----  Original Message ----- From: "Beth" 
>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:35 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] informed choice
>>>
>>>
>>>> I had the executive director write the letter of justification and
>>>> when I got it, I read it, and it was the best letter I could've
>>>> written.  They're only sponsoring the in-state portion, so I have to
>>>> get more money in order to pay for this thing in full.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 4/24/10, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>> Actually, someone trying for something out of the ordinary with rehab
>>>>> should remember that they have an employment goal, and an
>>>>> Individualized Plan for Employment.  They have to show how the
>>>>> alternative they propose will get them to their goal, while the
>>>>> resources the agency normally uses would not do so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> At 08:31 PM 4/24/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>> Focus more on the "daily use of skills" part, because any center can
>>>>>> claim they teach you braille. THey put you in there for an hour and 
>>>>>> that's
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>> Its not what you learn at LCB that sets it apart, its how you learn
>>>>>> it--the fact that its blind teaching the blind, and that you have to
>>>>>> use your skills on a daily bases, not because its required to pass,
>>>>>> but because you absolutely have to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>> <pd-01-03.doc><Standefur Informed 
>>> Choice.pdf>_______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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From joramsey at cox.net  Mon Apr 26 06:52:59 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 02:52:59 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Legal Quotes
Message-ID: <D84C086C9CAD4CFB83C70180DC469ADF@noneeb869fea9a>

This is for all of you legal scholars. Where did the famous quote that
references using the law as both a sword and a shield come from?
Thanks,
John
 

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453


This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 

 

From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 26 17:28:34 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 12:28:34 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Southwest Airlines and Customers of Size
Message-ID: <001a01cae565$e74b9bb0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello everyone,

    Convention is rapidly approaching and many of us are making airline 
reservations. For many of us this isn't any real concern. However large 
customers, or what airlines like South call "Customers of Size" have been 
subject to policies that can limit their airline choice and can add 
additional expense and frustration to their flying experience. I know about 
this first-hand as it happened to me last year when we flew to Detroit. I 
know that many of you heard bits and pieces of that story. Southwest's 
Customers of Size appears below along with their policy concerning the 
carriage of service animals.

    While the concerns of large passengers aren't a major issue of the NFB 
when two policies conflict I believe there is cause for alarm and a need to 
investigate. I travel with a guide dog. Southwest's policy says that guide 
dogs may occupy the space at the passenger's seat and that of the seat next 
to the passenger. This language leads a service animal user of any size to 
believe that every effort will be made to block off the seat next to the 
passenger giving the service animal more room so why charge them for that 
seat. We may be looking at a possible ACAA violation if the airline chooses 
to do this as a courtesy to guide dog and other service animal users.

    Note also that the language in the Customer of Size Policy is the same 
old dribble we've heard from airlines before about safety and such. 
Southwest gives large customers a refund of the unused seat but chasing down 
that refund is a royal pain. Ask someone who went through that experience. I 
don't care what they say. If other entities see it fit to have seating 
available for large persons airlines should be expected to do the same. This 
would also benefit guide dog users giving them extra room for their dog 
without compromising the floorspace of an adjacent passenger.

    Anyone coming to Dallas for the convention and who is large is advised 
to choose Delta or another airline with friendlier large customer policies. 
We flew on Delta last fall and didn't have any problems due to my large 
size. Because $1000.00 of professional recording equipment was damaged by 
Southwest last year "What a reward for sitting down and shutting up" to 
quote Dr. Maurer we're having to take extraordinary measures. In addition to 
purchasing travel insurance we'll be chartering a plane to Dallas and back 
to avoid mishandling of the recording equipment by baggage personnel, issues 
related to size, and the many other benefits private air charter has over 
scheduled flights. Here are the two policies:


Southwest Airlines Customers of Size Policy

>From the Web Site:
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_guidelines.html

Guidelines for Customers of 
Size--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Customers who are unable to lower both armrests (the definitive boundary 
between seats) and/or who compromise any portion of adjacent seating should 
proactively
book the number of seats needed prior to travel. This purchase serves as a 
notification of a special seating need and allows us to process a refund of
the additional seating cost after travel (provided the flight doesn't 
oversell). Most importantly, it ensures that all onboard have access to safe 
and
comfortable seating.

For more information, please refer to our
Customer of size QA

Booking Instructions via southwest.com

list of 6 items
1. Click "Reservations."
2. Select your city pair(s) and travel date(s).
3. Select the number of seats needed ("two" is the typical choice for most 
Customers of size).
4. Proceed through the "Select Flight" and "Itinerary and Pricing" pages.
5. Complete the "Passenger Information" name fields: For
example
, a Passenger named Tom Smith would designate Passenger One as "Tom Smith," 
and Passenger Two as "Tom XS Smith" (first name XS and last name).
6. If a Customer purchases a Business Select or an Anytime fare, the second 
seat can be sold at the discounted Child's Fare. It is important to note 
that
the Child's fare is available via our Reservations Sales Center only. You 
will need to call 800 I-FLY-SWA to book/purchase the extra seat at the Child
Fare.
list end

Booking Instructions via our Reservations Center at 800 I-FLY-SWA 
(800-435-9792)

list of 3 items
1. Inform the Agent you are familiar with our Customer of size policy and 
wish to book two seats.
2. We will offer the lowest fare available and if an advance purchase, 
discounted fare is booked, the second seat will be sold at the same 
discounted fare.
3. If a Customer purchases one of our unrestricted full fares, the second 
seat will be sold at the Child's Fare.
list end

Checkin Instructions

list of 3 items
1. Customers can retrieve a
Security Document
1 online to pass through a security checkpoint if not checking baggage.
2. If baggage or wheelchair assistance is needed curbside, a skycap will 
escort the Customer to the ticket counter. The Customer of size checkin is 
handled
at the ticket counter or at the gate (and cannot be processed online or via 
E-Ticket Check-In kiosk).
3. At checkin, the Customer will receive a boarding pass,
Reserved Seat Document,
Refund Advice Slip
, and preboard directions.
list end

1On occasion, federally mandated procedures may prevent our ability to issue 
a Security Document online. Under these circumstances, please see a 
Southwest
Customer Service Agent at the airport for assistance.



Customer of Size 
QA--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From the Web Site:
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_qa.html
list of 23 items
. Is the policy unique or new to Southwest Airlines?
No, other carriers have similar policies, but to the best of our knowledge, 
no other carrier offers a refund after travel. We've followed this policy 
for
28 of our 37 years of operation, but only became more vigilant regarding the 
additional purchase when we began seeing an increase in the number of valid
complaints from passengers who traveled without full access to the seat 
purchased because a large Customer infringed upon the adjacent seating 
space.
. Why ask large Customers to purchase additional seating?
We could no longer ignore complaints from Customers who traveled without 
full access to the seat purchased due to encroachment by a large seatmate 
whose
body extended into the neighboring seat. These Customers had uncomfortable 
(and sometimes painful) travel experiences, and it is our responsibility to
seek resolution to prevent this problem.
. What is the cost of the additional seating?
If the Customer is holding an advance purchase, discounted fare, the second 
seat will be sold at the same discounted fare. If the Customer has purchased
one of our low, unrestricted full fares, the second seat will be sold at the 
Child's Fare.
. What is the definitive gauge for a Customer of size?
The armrest is the definitive gauge, as it serves as the boundary between 
seats. Customers who are unable to lower the armrests (the definitive 
boundary
between seats) and/or who compromise any portion of adjacent seating should 
proactively book the number of seats needed during initial reservations.
. How do I qualify for and request a refund of the additional seat purchase?
As long as the flight does not oversell (having more confirmed Customers 
waiting to board an aircraft than seats on the aircraft), we will refund the 
additional
seat purchase after travel. A
Refund Advice Slip
, a guide for conveniently requesting refunds (via telephone or letter), is 
provided to the Customer of size at checkin. And, if it appears a flight 
will
oversell, the option to purchase a second seat and travel on a less full 
flight is available.
. Are there other reasons to purchase additional seating?
Yes, Customers wishing to secure in an aircraft seat a musical item, a child 
restraint device for an infant, etc. must purchase an additional ticket. 
However,
these Customers have other "options" such as holding an infant under the age 
of two as a lap child or placing the instrument in an onboard stowage space
or in the cargo hold, and we are sensitive to fact that a large Customer has 
no option regarding seating space. For that reason, we offer a refund of the
additional seat purchased (by a Customer of size) as long as the flight does 
not oversell.
. Won't this be embarrassing to the large Customer and the Employee?
It's tough to speak privately in an airport setting, and because a 
discussion about size is sensitive, we've cautioned our Employees to use 
discretion.
Yes, it's difficult to deliver or receive a sensitive message, and to 
alleviate confusion, we encourage Customers with unique seating needs to 
proactively
purchase additional seating (again, this is to notify us of the unique 
need). We ask this to accommodate our Customers in comfort and avoid 
embarrassing
conversation. Ultimately, it is the Customer's responsibility to communicate 
with us upfront (at the time of booking) about his/her seating needs so that
we may best serve him/her and all others onboard.
. I am a large person and use a seatbelt extension, but I fit in one 
aircraft seat. Do I have to purchase two seats?
Our policy does not focus on weight, and the seatbelt extension is not the 
determining factor. We use the ability to lower the armrests as the gauge, 
as
the armrests are truly the definitive boundary between each seat.
. Are all overweight people subject to the policy?
Many Americans are "overweight" or "clinically obese." A number of 
overweight or obese people occupy only one seat. In fact, many Customers may 
use a seatbelt
extension but occupy only one seat, and these Customers would not be asked 
to reserve a second seat. If a Customer cannot lower the armrest (and is 
unable
to comfortably travel with it in the down position), he/she is required to 
pay for the additional seat occupied. Again, we will offer a refund if the 
flight
does not oversell.
. I'm large but can be seated with the armrests down. Aren't your Employees 
wrong to question me?
If a concern exists, we shouldn't ignore it even if it's difficult for both 
parties to discuss. Condoning an unsafe, cramped seating arrangement onboard
our aircraft is far more inappropriate than simply questioning a Customer's 
fit in our seats.
. Why not make your seats wider or add a few wide seats on your aircraft?
Our ongoing goal is to operate a low-fare, low cost airline, and the costs 
of reconfiguring our fleet would be staggering and would ultimately reflect
in the form of higher fares for our Customers. Purchasing two seats on 
Southwest Airlines is significantly less expensive than purchasing one first 
class
seat on another airline.
. If a flight is "open," why are you charging for an additional seat?
A Customer of size has no way of knowing at the time of booking if his/her 
flights will be full. The inconsistency of charging for the extra seat on 
one
occasion and not others leaves the Customer not knowing what to expect and 
not having a full understanding of our policy. Thus, we require the 
additional
purchase despite booking levels.
. Why can't two large Customers share their second seat?
Open seating cannot guarantee that there will be an entire row open for two 
Customers to sit together and share the middle seat on each leg of the trip.
. Why can't a large Customer sit with a family member who doesn't mind being 
encroached upon or a small child/person who doesn't take a full seat?
Open seating cannot guarantee that two people will be able to sit together. 
In addition, we must treat the smaller person (despite willingness or 
personal
relationship) as a valued Customer who deserves the use of a full seat. Most 
importantly, we have to consider the safety aspect of the family member 
whose
movement (especially in the event of an emergency) could be compromised if 
encroached on by a large seatmate.
. Isn't this policy just another way to increase your revenue?
No, we are not "making money" from this policy. In addition to giving the 
Customer a refund for the second seat, we are absorbing the administrative 
costs
(staffing and processing) of issuing the refund. 98 percent of extra seat 
purchases qualify for a refund, as a refund request is declined only in the 
event
of an oversale that causes us to deny transportation to a confirmed Customer 
(to whom we must issue denied boarding compensation).
. If a Customer has broad shoulders, will he/she have to buy a second seat?
Again, if a Customer cannot lower the armrests, the additional purchase is 
necessary. Simply having broad shoulders would not necessarily prevent 
another
Customer from occupying adjoining seat. The upper body can be adjusted, but 
the portion of the body in the actual seating and armrest area doesn't have
this flexibility.
. Why isn't this information on your tickets, referenced on the 
booking/reservations pages of your web site, or questioned by your 
Reservations Employees?
We estimate that the Customer of size policy affects far less than half a 
percent of our Customers, and ultimately, it is the responsibility of a 
Customer
with a unique and unusual need to communicate with us upfront so that we may 
best serve him/her and all others onboard. We won't know of an unusual need
unless the Customer tells us.
. Doesn't your policy violate the Americans with Disabilities Act or the Air 
Carrier Access Act?
Interstate airline travel is specifically excluded from Title II of the 
Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) by Section 12141(2). Airline travel is 
instead
covered by the Air Carrier Access Act, 49 U.S.C. 1374(c) and the regulations 
implementing the Act issued by the Department of Transportation as 14 CFR
Part 382, et seq. The Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) preceded the ADA, and 
Congress excluded air carriers and other air transportation services from 
the
scope of ADA. As regulated under 14 CFR §382.38 Seating accommodations (i) 
"Carriers are not required to furnish more than one seat per ticket or to 
provide
a seat in a class of service other than the one the passenger has 
purchased."
. Can I be preapproved as needing only one seat?
Because size can fluctuate, we are unable to give blanket authorization.
. How will you ensure no one takes the seat beside me if I've purchased a 
second seat?
The Customer who has purchased two seats must be an active participant in 
preserving his/her additional seat. We encourage Customers of size to 
preboard
to locate adequate seating, placing the
Reserved Seat Document
 in the adjacent seat. Our Ground Operations and Inflight Employees 
communicate about special needs Customers, and if a Customer of size needs 
seating assistance,
he/she should ask an Employee for help.
. I'm pregnant, will I have to purchase two seats?
A woman who is pregnant does not occupy two seats if she can lower the 
armrests.
. Can I check in using an E-Ticket Check-In kiosk or online checkin?
Because a Customer of size has special seating needs; is encouraged to 
preboard; and needs specific boarding/seating documents, these Customers are 
required
to check in with a Customer Service Agent at the ticket counter or at the 
gate. A Skycap can assist a Customer of size with baggage and provide an 
escort
to the ticket counter, and a Customer of size wishing to bypass the ticket 
counter may simply print a Security Document online for access through the 
security
checkpoint. At checkin, a Customer of size will receive a boarding pass, 
Reserved Seat Document, Refund Advice Slip, and preboarding direction.
. Isn't this policy discriminatory toward large Customers?
Southwest Airlines does not condone discrimination in any form. We have 
Employees and Customers of all races, ethnicity, religions, shapes, and 
sizes.
Our Mission and our responsibility per our Contract of Carriage is to 
provide safe and comfortable air transportation for each and every Customer. 
This
policy has been upheld in court and is supported by the Department of 
Transportation's stance that the purchase of a single ticket offers the use 
of a
single seat.
list end

Southwest Airlines Policy on Carriage of Assistance Animals
Assistance Animals
Trained Assistance Animals

Southwest Airlines welcomes trained assistance animals on all of our 
flights. In accordance with federal Safety regulations, the animal must be 
positioned so as not to obstruct Customers' expeditious evacuation in the 
unlikely event of an emergency. Except when too large to be safely 
accommodated, a trained assistance animal traveling with and providing 
assistance to a Customer with a disability will be accommodated in the 
aircraft cabin on the floor in front of or next to the Customer with a 
disability.

 There you have it. During my flight I was told that Southwest's Customer of 
Size Policy was an FAA regulation. I checked the FAA's Web Site after 
reading this document and found no FAA regulations that set arm rests as the 
definitive boundary between seats. And no where are any so-called FAA 
policies referenced that readers of this information can examine for 
themselves. While this issue isn't a blindness matter it's one to monitor 
should airlines use these policies to indirectly discriminate against guide 
dog users. I hope that this information will help insure that everyone can 
fly to Dallas and home without encountering this kind of nonsence. Large 
convention attendees be sure to choose your airline wisely to avoid paying 
for two seats and to avoid the other problems I and perhaps some others 
encountered when flying on the likes of Southwest Airlines.

Peter Donahue

"Will you come and awake our lost land from its slumber
      And her fetters we'll break, links that long are encumbered.
      And the air will resound with hosannas to greet you
      On the shore will be found gallant Irishmen to greet you."
Will You Come to the Bower
Traditional Irish Folk Song



From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Mon Apr 26 19:48:42 2010
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 14:48:42 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED50482BEE35@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>



From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 11:21 AM
To: jobs at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice



________________________________
From: Ross, Rae N [mailto:raeross at usdoj.gov]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 12:11 PM
To: nedy at wyjlaw.com; newmedia at ja.org; Neysas at dnfsb.gov; Maurer, Patricia; nijc at aol.com; nlove at opd.state.md.us; nmcconnell at jackscamp.com; noconnell at tabinc.org; noryrp at cox.net; nromulus at gmail.com; ntb at boglechang.com; nwpatton at law.stanford.edu; ocaaba at cox.net; omanager at lawyerscomm.org; palsd at hotmail.com; patel at fr.com; pchanster at yahoo.com; pchapman at koonz.com; pgrewal at daycasebeer.com; pkim at lordbissell.com; Maurer, Patricia; pmorrison at state.wv.us; poppy.johnston at unlv.edu; president at abaw.org
Subject: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice




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Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies
*  EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION OFFICE OF INTELLIGENCE DEPUTY CHIEF OF LITIGATION SECTION GS-905-15 Applications must be received by the closing date of May 14, 2010. <http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/10-nsd-deputy-litigation.htm>
Date posted: 04-23-2010

*  ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 10-SDTX-04 The position is open until filled. The initial cutoff date for receipt of applications is April 30, 2010. <http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/10-usao-10-sdtx-04.htm>
Date posted: 04-23-2010

*  ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 10-SDTX-03 The positions are open until filled. The initial cutoff date for receipt of applications is April 30, 2010.<http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/10-usao-10-sdtx-03.htm>
Date posted: 04-23-2010

*  ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 10-SDTX-02 The position is open until filled. The initial cutoff date for receipt of applications is April 30, 2010. <http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/10-usao-10-sdtx-02.htm>
Date posted: 04-23-2010

*  (1) TRIAL ATTORNEY OFFICE OF THE UNITED STATES TRUSTEE WILMINGTON, DELAWARE VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 04-2010-001 <http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/detailtrialattwilmington.htm>
Date posted: 04-23-2010

*  U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION, SPECIAL LITIGATION SECTION CHIEF, ES-905 (SENIOR EXECUTIVE SERVICE) CLOSING DATE: May 4, 2010 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 10-SES-CRD-003 <http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/10-ses-crd-003.htm>
Date posted: 04-22-2010

*  ASSISTANT DEPUTY CHIEF FOR LITIGATION (INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY) COMPUTER CRIME AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY SECTION U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WASHINGTON, DC ANNOUNCEMENT 10-CRM-CCIPS-022 Applications must be post-marked or received by CCIPS by May 21, 2010. <http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/ccipslitigation.htm>
Date posted: 04-22-2010

*  U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION OFFICE OF OVERSEAS PROSECUTORIAL DEVELOPMENT, ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY / GS-14 to GS-15 BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA Applications should be submitted by April 30, 2010, but will be accepted until the position is filled.<http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/crm-opdat-bosnia-herzegovina.htm>
Date posted: 04-21-2010

*  U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE U.S. TRUSTEE'S OFFICE -- BROOKLYN, NEW YORK EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY/GS-13 to GS-15 Applications must be postmarked by May 14, 2010.<http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/ust-brooklyn-ny.htm>
Date posted: 04-21-2010

*  IMMIGRATION JUDGE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW IMMIGRATION COURT, ATLANTA, GA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-10-0106 1 POSITION Applications received after May 11, 2010 will not be considered.<http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/eoir-10-0106.htm>
Date posted: 04-20-2010

*  U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION OFFICE OF OVERSEAS PROSECUTORIAL DEVELOPMENT, ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING RESIDENT LEGAL ADVISOR IN TIRANA, ALBANIA Applications should be submitted by May 7, but the position will be open until it is filled.<http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/10-crm-opdat-albania.htm>
Date posted: 04-20-2010

*  UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA 14 MONTH TERM APPOINTMENT VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. 10-MN-10 The position or positions are open until filled. The initial cut-off date for the receipt of applications is April 30, 2010.<http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/10-mn-10.htm>
Date posted: 04-19-2010

*  UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA 09-AZ-10 All application documents need to be submitted to the office by June 30, 2010. <http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/09-az-10ausaphxuc.htm>
Date posted: 04-19-2010


The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information.

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From dtomblin at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 27 04:51:16 2010
From: dtomblin at hotmail.com (Darren Tomblin)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 00:51:16 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] admission question
Message-ID: <BLU139-DS7347357818871550057C2D4030@phx.gbl>

hi, I have a question about my admission to law school. I believe I was 
denied admission due to my disablity because I have a 136 lsat score and I 
missed 17 on the anaylytical section which I believe is unfair for a blind 
applicant. I was wondering if anyone knew what I could do about his. thanks 
in advance. Darren
73,
Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
dtomblin at hotmail.com
http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/ 



From dricken at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 11:06:27 2010
From: dricken at gmail.com (Kendrick Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:06:27 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] admission question
In-Reply-To: <BLU139-DS7347357818871550057C2D4030@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU139-DS7347357818871550057C2D4030@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <p2o9668861d1004270406q80223cbbmf634349e040776a8@mail.gmail.com>

Darren,

There are other factors that are looked at when law school committees
evaluate applicants. The LSAT, under graduate GPA, personal references
and the personal letter too. In the Constitutional Law class I took my
first year we had a big discussion on the topic of law school
admission. The professor that instructed the class was and is still on
the admissions committee at UM Law School.

The first question you should ask is was your accommodations fulfilled
when you took the LSAT. Second, was it your first time taking the LSAT
and finally, how can you improve your score. There are several blind
law students that have taken the LSAT and done well on the logic
portion of the LSAT. As well there are many sited applicants that do
not get in to law school and they do not do well on the logic portion
of the LSAT.

I think you should retake the LSAT and reapply to law school.



On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Darren Tomblin <dtomblin at hotmail.com> wrote:
> hi, I have a question about my admission to law school. I believe I was
> denied admission due to my disablity because I have a 136 lsat score and I
> missed 17 on the anaylytical section which I believe is unfair for a blind
> applicant. I was wondering if anyone knew what I could do about his. thanks
> in advance. Darren
> 73,
> Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
> dtomblin at hotmail.com
> http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dricken%40gmail.com
>



-- 
Thanks, 2K

Being Blind isn't a right, it's a privilege!

****************************************
Kendrick R. Kennedy, BSBA

Juris Doctor Candidate, 2011
The University of Mississippi,
School of Law


From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Tue Apr 27 23:10:42 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:10:42 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] admission question
References: <BLU139-DS7347357818871550057C2D4030@phx.gbl>
	<p2o9668861d1004270406q80223cbbmf634349e040776a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7D0FC1DF45064531BC3B09E44DE6824B@Rob>

Hello Darren and list.

I agree with Mr. Kennedy that you should retake the LSAT to improve your 
score although I can understand apprehension about getting hit with a second 
round of application fees and the time involved in preparation for a hurtle 
you had hoped to have jumped by now. I also agree that the accommodations 
made available to you may not have been adequate to aid your performance on 
the exam. Poor reading can really trip a person up badly, so I would commend 
you to advocate with the test center to allow you to bring a reader of your 
choosing. If the manager of the testing facility is worried about you 
picking a reader that knows enough to help you, there are two arguments you 
can offer as rebuttal. First, the test room is proctored even if you are in 
a separate testing room which is also standard procedure to avoid 
distracting other test candidates with necessary conversation between you 
and your reader. In fact I would diplomaticly mention that test room 
monitoring in your situation is even closer because the proctor is only 
observing you and your reader as opposed to watching and listening to 100 
examinees. Secondly, you can offer to provide a notarized affidavit 
declaring the person you have hired to read for you is not an attorney or 
otherwise legally trained, together with  any other assurances the test 
center director feels is important. Another alternative is to ask if 
computerized test-taking is available with appropriate assistive technology.

Secondly, I suspect a retake could help improve your test score in that you 
have experienced the types of questions being asked and now know what to 
expect. No doubt performance anxiety can also impair good performance on 
standardized academic tests including the LSAT. I sincerely wish you good 
luck and keep us posted.

Best regards
Rob Tabor


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kendrick Kennedy" <dricken at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] admission question


> Darren,
>
> There are other factors that are looked at when law school committees
> evaluate applicants. The LSAT, under graduate GPA, personal references
> and the personal letter too. In the Constitutional Law class I took my
> first year we had a big discussion on the topic of law school
> admission. The professor that instructed the class was and is still on
> the admissions committee at UM Law School.
>
> The first question you should ask is was your accommodations fulfilled
> when you took the LSAT. Second, was it your first time taking the LSAT
> and finally, how can you improve your score. There are several blind
> law students that have taken the LSAT and done well on the logic
> portion of the LSAT. As well there are many sited applicants that do
> not get in to law school and they do not do well on the logic portion
> of the LSAT.
>
> I think you should retake the LSAT and reapply to law school.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Darren Tomblin <dtomblin at hotmail.com> 
> wrote:
>> hi, I have a question about my admission to law school. I believe I was
>> denied admission due to my disablity because I have a 136 lsat score and 
>> I
>> missed 17 on the anaylytical section which I believe is unfair for a 
>> blind
>> applicant. I was wondering if anyone knew what I could do about his. 
>> thanks
>> in advance. Darren
>> 73,
>> Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
>> dtomblin at hotmail.com
>> http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dricken%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Thanks, 2K
>
> Being Blind isn't a right, it's a privilege!
>
> ****************************************
> Kendrick R. Kennedy, BSBA
>
> Juris Doctor Candidate, 2011
> The University of Mississippi,
> School of Law
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglobal.net 



From joramsey at cox.net  Wed Apr 28 05:25:07 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 01:25:07 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] admission question
In-Reply-To: <7D0FC1DF45064531BC3B09E44DE6824B@Rob>
Message-ID: <6E76D7667B02451D89F277DF675990F3@noneeb869fea9a>

Hello List,
This issue comes up each and every year on the list and is discussed at
nauseum. The LSAC cannot read your mind and they are only going to grant you
the accommodations that you ask for. Whether or not those accommodations are
adequate is solely up to the applicant. Doing one's research on the front
end is essential to receiving appropriate accommodations.
Secondly, the idea that retaking the test is somehow beneficial is really a
misnomer in most instances because the majority of law schools average your
scores. Finally, there is always the option that if you feel like you did
not perform well on the test you can cancel your score before even leaving
the center.
Cordially,
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Rob Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 7:11 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] admission question


Hello Darren and list.

I agree with Mr. Kennedy that you should retake the LSAT to improve your 
score although I can understand apprehension about getting hit with a second

round of application fees and the time involved in preparation for a hurtle 
you had hoped to have jumped by now. I also agree that the accommodations 
made available to you may not have been adequate to aid your performance on 
the exam. Poor reading can really trip a person up badly, so I would commend

you to advocate with the test center to allow you to bring a reader of your 
choosing. If the manager of the testing facility is worried about you 
picking a reader that knows enough to help you, there are two arguments you 
can offer as rebuttal. First, the test room is proctored even if you are in 
a separate testing room which is also standard procedure to avoid 
distracting other test candidates with necessary conversation between you 
and your reader. In fact I would diplomaticly mention that test room 
monitoring in your situation is even closer because the proctor is only 
observing you and your reader as opposed to watching and listening to 100 
examinees. Secondly, you can offer to provide a notarized affidavit 
declaring the person you have hired to read for you is not an attorney or 
otherwise legally trained, together with  any other assurances the test 
center director feels is important. Another alternative is to ask if 
computerized test-taking is available with appropriate assistive technology.

Secondly, I suspect a retake could help improve your test score in that you 
have experienced the types of questions being asked and now know what to 
expect. No doubt performance anxiety can also impair good performance on 
standardized academic tests including the LSAT. I sincerely wish you good 
luck and keep us posted.

Best regards
Rob Tabor


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kendrick Kennedy" <dricken at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] admission question


> Darren,
>
> There are other factors that are looked at when law school committees 
> evaluate applicants. The LSAT, under graduate GPA, personal references 
> and the personal letter too. In the Constitutional Law class I took my 
> first year we had a big discussion on the topic of law school 
> admission. The professor that instructed the class was and is still on 
> the admissions committee at UM Law School.
>
> The first question you should ask is was your accommodations fulfilled 
> when you took the LSAT. Second, was it your first time taking the LSAT 
> and finally, how can you improve your score. There are several blind 
> law students that have taken the LSAT and done well on the logic 
> portion of the LSAT. As well there are many sited applicants that do 
> not get in to law school and they do not do well on the logic portion 
> of the LSAT.
>
> I think you should retake the LSAT and reapply to law school.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Darren Tomblin 
> <dtomblin at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> hi, I have a question about my admission to law school. I believe I 
>> was denied admission due to my disablity because I have a 136 lsat 
>> score and I missed 17 on the anaylytical section which I believe is 
>> unfair for a blind
>> applicant. I was wondering if anyone knew what I could do about his. 
>> thanks
>> in advance. Darren
>> 73,
>> Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
>> dtomblin at hotmail.com
>> http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw: 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dricken%40g
>> mail.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks, 2K
>
> Being Blind isn't a right, it's a privilege!
>
> ****************************************
> Kendrick R. Kennedy, BSBA
>
> Juris Doctor Candidate, 2011
> The University of Mississippi,
> School of Law
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglo
bal.net 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net



From dtomblin at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 30 05:06:29 2010
From: dtomblin at hotmail.com (Darren Tomblin)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 01:06:29 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] analytical section
Message-ID: <BLU139-DS50333C0993A444E608A37D4000@phx.gbl>

hi, I was wondering if anyone could give me some ideas on how to make the 
analytical section of the lsat workable. Did the lawyer working on the lsac 
case consider doing anything about this section. I think its unfair for 
blind people. thanks
73,
Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
dtomblin at hotmail.com
http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/ 



From lists at zufelt.ca  Fri Apr 30 05:30:03 2010
From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 01:30:03 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] analytical section
In-Reply-To: <BLU139-DS50333C0993A444E608A37D4000@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU139-DS50333C0993A444E608A37D4000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <491314D9-70FE-4FB9-B8FC-95BB73655812@zufelt.ca>

Good evening Darren,

I was permitted to use a laptop to make notes on all sections of the LSAT.  While I worked through sample LSAT questions with a reader I developed my own method of diagraming in order to help me solve the answers to questions.

HTH,
Everett Zufelt
http://zufelt.ca

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt



On 2010-04-30, at 1:06 AM, Darren Tomblin wrote:

> hi, I was wondering if anyone could give me some ideas on how to make the analytical section of the lsat workable. Did the lawyer working on the lsac case consider doing anything about this section. I think its unfair for blind people. thanks
> 73,
> Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
> dtomblin at hotmail.com
> http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/ 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Fri Apr 30 10:08:22 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 03:08:22 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] analytical section
In-Reply-To: <BLU139-DS50333C0993A444E608A37D4000@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU139-DS50333C0993A444E608A37D4000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <EA6B93477D554D5484A98C87AA6BEBCC@spike>

Does the fairness argument really carry wait regarding the competence of a 
blind legal professional practicing in the field? What happened to the 
ability to adapt and be prepared as a blind law student lawyer or other 
legal professional?
Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Darren Tomblin" <dtomblin at hotmail.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:06 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] analytical section


> hi, I was wondering if anyone could give me some ideas on how to make the 
> analytical section of the lsat workable. Did the lawyer working on the 
> lsac case consider doing anything about this section. I think its unfair 
> for blind people. thanks
> 73,
> Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
> dtomblin at hotmail.com
> http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Fri Apr 30 11:04:03 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:04:03 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] analytical section
In-Reply-To: <EA6B93477D554D5484A98C87AA6BEBCC@spike>
References: <BLU139-DS50333C0993A444E608A37D4000@phx.gbl>
	<EA6B93477D554D5484A98C87AA6BEBCC@spike>
Message-ID: <B87F7C375FF343F3BBFB6A51F2F83A54@StevePC>

I want the best attorney I can afford regardless of fairness!  If I'm hiring 
an attorney, I could care less about fairness.

Steve
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] analytical section


> Does the fairness argument really carry wait regarding the competence of a
> blind legal professional practicing in the field? What happened to the
> ability to adapt and be prepared as a blind law student lawyer or other
> legal professional?
> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Darren Tomblin" <dtomblin at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:06 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] analytical section
>
>
>> hi, I was wondering if anyone could give me some ideas on how to make the
>> analytical section of the lsat workable. Did the lawyer working on the
>> lsac case consider doing anything about this section. I think its unfair
>> for blind people. thanks
>> 73,
>> Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
>> dtomblin at hotmail.com
>> http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


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From tom at tomladis.com  Fri Apr 30 14:13:52 2010
From: tom at tomladis.com (Tom Ladis)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:13:52 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Accommodations
Message-ID: <2B296C283D394A2A81DBAAA00F334B0A@TMLDELLLAPTOP1>

Hello all.  I am new to the list and just preparing to take the LSAT and a 
prep class at Kaplan.  Has anyone on the list been able to take the test in 
a digital format with JAWS screen reader or similar technology?  I do not 
read Braille yet, and feel that the reader and scribe method of taking the 
test does not level the playing field, leaving the test taker to interact 
with someone while they should be focused on the test and getting into their 
zone during the test.

Thanks,
Tom 



From cathrynisfinally at verizon.net  Fri Apr 30 14:42:18 2010
From: cathrynisfinally at verizon.net (Cathryn Bonnette)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 10:42:18 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT
Message-ID: <09189708FA5D4854B1A5625B8DFFE44F@14bd0130080a469>

In response to Tom-

 

I don't believe the LSAT takers are permitted to use JAWS. The answer sheet
needs to be completed by a scribe to fill in the computerized form properly.
When I took the test, the person who read questions to me filled in the form
also. There was no other interaction during the test except for reading the
questions out loud.   Regulations were extremely rigid.  For example, I was
granted double time due to disability, but I forgot to request extra breaks
due to extended hours of examination, and thus breaks were denied by the
testing service! Unless they have drastically changed their approach, you
will get farther in demanding a qualified reader for the exam.  My reader
was a practicing attorney, competent to handle the material.

Perhaps others have had different experiences, but that was mine. Feel free
to contact me off list if you wish.

 

 

Cathryn


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Fri Apr 30 14:58:26 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:58:26 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT
In-Reply-To: <09189708FA5D4854B1A5625B8DFFE44F@14bd0130080a469>
References: <09189708FA5D4854B1A5625B8DFFE44F@14bd0130080a469>
Message-ID: <860AE4E0ACF14B698530747BA9A551D5@spike>

When I took it years ago I took it as a culmination of an LSAT prep course 
offered at Grand Valley State in Michigan and at that time they let my mom 
read the test. Not sure if the LSAC would have approved of it but at that 
time that was how the instructor handled it.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 7:42 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT


> In response to Tom-
>
>
>
> I don't believe the LSAT takers are permitted to use JAWS. The answer 
> sheet
> needs to be completed by a scribe to fill in the computerized form 
> properly.
> When I took the test, the person who read questions to me filled in the 
> form
> also. There was no other interaction during the test except for reading 
> the
> questions out loud.   Regulations were extremely rigid.  For example, I 
> was
> granted double time due to disability, but I forgot to request extra 
> breaks
> due to extended hours of examination, and thus breaks were denied by the
> testing service! Unless they have drastically changed their approach, you
> will get farther in demanding a qualified reader for the exam.  My reader
> was a practicing attorney, competent to handle the material.
>
> Perhaps others have had different experiences, but that was mine. Feel 
> free
> to contact me off list if you wish.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cathryn
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Fri Apr 30 15:31:38 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:31:38 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT
In-Reply-To: <09189708FA5D4854B1A5625B8DFFE44F@14bd0130080a469>
References: <09189708FA5D4854B1A5625B8DFFE44F@14bd0130080a469>
Message-ID: <FFD8684309014D498A26213327CC27F5@Rufus>

Hello Cathryn and all,

Is double time the norm?  I thought time and a half was already pushing it
in light of the trouble I had with some of the other accommodations.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cathryn Bonnette
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 10:42 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT

In response to Tom-

 

I don't believe the LSAT takers are permitted to use JAWS. The 
answer sheet
needs to be completed by a scribe to fill in the computerized 
form properly.
When I took the test, the person who read questions to me 
filled in the form
also. There was no other interaction during the test except for 
reading the
questions out loud.   Regulations were extremely rigid.  For 
example, I was
granted double time due to disability, but I forgot to request 
extra breaks
due to extended hours of examination, and thus breaks were denied by the
testing service! Unless they have drastically changed their 
approach, you
will get farther in demanding a qualified reader for the exam.  
My reader
was a practicing attorney, competent to handle the material.

Perhaps others have had different experiences, but that was 
mine. Feel free
to contact me off list if you wish.

 

 

Cathryn

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

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virus signature database 5073 (20100429) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5073 (20100429) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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From lilrichie411 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 30 18:46:50 2010
From: lilrichie411 at gmail.com (Jordan Richardson)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 13:46:50 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Introduction
Message-ID: <s2kca301f5e1004301146x8d5acbt46d78b27e8e24932@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

My name is Jordan Richardson and I am currently a freshman at the
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities majoring in political science and
planning to minor in philosophy.

After my undergraduate degree I plan to attend law school specializing
in Constitutional law.  My plan is to practice law and then become a
judge.

I actually have some questions regarding blind judges:

What non-visual techniques would a blind judge use on the bench during
a trial? How would one deal with looking at evidence?  Would the
bailiff describe/read any pictures/texts, or would you simply have
each attorney be descriptive?

Thank you,
Jordan Richardson
2nd Vice President, Minnesota Association of Blind Students

-- 
Jordan Richardson
2nd Vice President, Minnesota Association of Blind Students
lilrichie411 at gmail.com
“It is very important to generate a good attitude, a good heart, as
much as possible. From this, happiness in both the short term and the
long term for both yourself and others will come.”
--Dalai Lama


From tom at tomladis.com  Fri Apr 30 20:15:03 2010
From: tom at tomladis.com (Tom Ladis)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 15:15:03 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT
References: <09189708FA5D4854B1A5625B8DFFE44F@14bd0130080a469>
Message-ID: <880414F1285B4040A9E05ACE331D84EA@TMLDELLLAPTOP1>

Thank you.  LSAC makes getting appropriate accommodations very hard.  I have 
heard stories similar to yours, and was told by a contact at LSAC to state 
exactly what I want because if it is not listed I will definitely not get 
it.  They were also not willing to discuss computer based testing and what 
might be appropriate for blind test takers.  Some people have suggested that 
I ask for the test in an electronic format in addition to double time, more 
breaks, and Word to take notes for the Logic Games.  This may cause the need 
to appeal, but may get things that should be available to everybody.  It 
doesn't seem right that every blind person trying to take the test should go 
through these same hoops, over and over again.  It also doesn't seem like a 
level playing field when blind people need to take the test in a manner that 
introduces an additional distraction and more stress.



Tom
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 9:42 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT


> In response to Tom-
>
>
>
> I don't believe the LSAT takers are permitted to use JAWS. The answer 
> sheet
> needs to be completed by a scribe to fill in the computerized form 
> properly.
> When I took the test, the person who read questions to me filled in the 
> form
> also. There was no other interaction during the test except for reading 
> the
> questions out loud.   Regulations were extremely rigid.  For example, I 
> was
> granted double time due to disability, but I forgot to request extra 
> breaks
> due to extended hours of examination, and thus breaks were denied by the
> testing service! Unless they have drastically changed their approach, you
> will get farther in demanding a qualified reader for the exam.  My reader
> was a practicing attorney, competent to handle the material.
>
> Perhaps others have had different experiences, but that was mine. Feel 
> free
> to contact me off list if you wish.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cathryn
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com
> 



From joramsey at cox.net  Fri Apr 30 23:28:26 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:28:26 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT
In-Reply-To: <880414F1285B4040A9E05ACE331D84EA@TMLDELLLAPTOP1>
Message-ID: <2FC1DDB64A1D4DBF93216B2DCE35ECDF@noneeb869fea9a>

Hi Tom,
While your concerns are valid, each test and each blind test taker are
different and as I have stated time and again, the examiners do not read our
minds, so if you don't ask, they are not obligated to deliver. Test
preparation is paramount when applying for law school.
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Ladis
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 4:15 PM
To: cathrynisfinally at verizon.net; NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT


Thank you.  LSAC makes getting appropriate accommodations very hard.  I have

heard stories similar to yours, and was told by a contact at LSAC to state 
exactly what I want because if it is not listed I will definitely not get 
it.  They were also not willing to discuss computer based testing and what 
might be appropriate for blind test takers.  Some people have suggested that

I ask for the test in an electronic format in addition to double time, more 
breaks, and Word to take notes for the Logic Games.  This may cause the need

to appeal, but may get things that should be available to everybody.  It 
doesn't seem right that every blind person trying to take the test should go

through these same hoops, over and over again.  It also doesn't seem like a 
level playing field when blind people need to take the test in a manner that

introduces an additional distraction and more stress.



Tom
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 9:42 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT


> In response to Tom-
>
>
>
> I don't believe the LSAT takers are permitted to use JAWS. The answer
> sheet
> needs to be completed by a scribe to fill in the computerized form 
> properly.
> When I took the test, the person who read questions to me filled in the 
> form
> also. There was no other interaction during the test except for reading 
> the
> questions out loud.   Regulations were extremely rigid.  For example, I 
> was
> granted double time due to disability, but I forgot to request extra 
> breaks
> due to extended hours of examination, and thus breaks were denied by the
> testing service! Unless they have drastically changed their approach, you
> will get farther in demanding a qualified reader for the exam.  My reader
> was a practicing attorney, competent to handle the material.
>
> Perhaps others have had different experiences, but that was mine. Feel
> free
> to contact me off list if you wish.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cathryn
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com
> 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net



From t.l.cantrell at comcast.net  Thu Apr  1 02:41:57 2010
From: t.l.cantrell at comcast.net (Tammy Cantrell)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:41:57 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question
Message-ID: <74D1A6A637564CACAC3B7E070F25B36C@owner1b4ab732f>

I have a legal question I need some input on from those that know more about this than I do.  I'll give you the situation 1st and then the question.
    Situation:
    A totally blind person lives in an apartment complex.  The US Postal Service delivers mail to each apartment.  For out going mail, there used to be a drop box within the complex.  It was close to the office area but was still available.
    Now the Postal Service has removed the drop box for the out going mail.  The only way this blind person has of sending mail is either stand around and wait for the mail carrier, entrust the out going mail to somebody else to drop off or (here's the best one)  make an appointment with Access which is their Paratransit service, pay $3.50 one way spend 3 plus hours and deliver the letter, then pay $3.50 again to return home.  
    The removal of the out going drop box was not at the request of the Apartment Complex.  The Postal Service stated that the drop box was not cost effective, therefore, it had to be removed.
    Question:
    What legal steps can be taken to resolve this situation.
    There has already been useless conversations with the local Post Office.  I would be very interested in hearing your suggestions.
    Thanks so much for your assistance! 


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Apr  1 05:49:29 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 22:49:29 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question
In-Reply-To: <74D1A6A637564CACAC3B7E070F25B36C@owner1b4ab732f>
References: <74D1A6A637564CACAC3B7E070F25B36C@owner1b4ab732f>
Message-ID: <F2D2D830E33943A0B8404D74771CB46F@spike>

This has been a trend that has been happening with the Post Office for the 
past several years. AS the blind person is not specifically being 
discriminated against and all residents are doing without the drop box I 
doubt that this would come under the ADA. There have been times that I have 
contacted the Post Office to let them know when I had outgoing mail to be 
picked up such as Braille books to be returned to the library and left them 
outside my door for the mailman to pick up. The local Post office station 
has been receptive to this procedure. For other mail I live within walking 
distance to a Post Office or else will mail it from one of the offices I 
work out of.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tammy Cantrell" <t.l.cantrell at comcast.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 7:41 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question


>I have a legal question I need some input on from those that know more 
>about this than I do.  I'll give you the situation 1st and then the 
>question.
>    Situation:
>    A totally blind person lives in an apartment complex.  The US Postal 
> Service delivers mail to each apartment.  For out going mail, there used 
> to be a drop box within the complex.  It was close to the office area but 
> was still available.
>    Now the Postal Service has removed the drop box for the out going mail. 
> The only way this blind person has of sending mail is either stand around 
> and wait for the mail carrier, entrust the out going mail to somebody else 
> to drop off or (here's the best one)  make an appointment with Access 
> which is their Paratransit service, pay $3.50 one way spend 3 plus hours 
> and deliver the letter, then pay $3.50 again to return home.
>    The removal of the out going drop box was not at the request of the 
> Apartment Complex.  The Postal Service stated that the drop box was not 
> cost effective, therefore, it had to be removed.
>    Question:
>    What legal steps can be taken to resolve this situation.
>    There has already been useless conversations with the local Post 
> Office.  I would be very interested in hearing your suggestions.
>    Thanks so much for your assistance!
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Apr  1 06:42:34 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 23:42:34 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Telework firm urges training on hiring of disabled
	workers
Message-ID: <09BBB7B05CAA4BCD9E074933E7C3633B@spike>

Washington Post (Washington DC)
March 28, 2010


Telework firm urges federal training on hiring disabled workers



By Ed O'Keefe<
http://projects
. washingtonpost. com/staff/ articles/ ed+o%27keefe/>
Washington Post Staff Writer


Almost half of human resources officials responsible for hiring and retaining
federal workers say they have not received adequate training on how to manage
and retain employees with severe disabilities, according to the results of a
survey by the Telework Exchange and the Federal Managers Association set for
release Monday. Many are also unfamiliar with mandates designed to promote the
hiring of disabled applicants and hiring rules that allow for the noncompetitive
hiring of disabled people.


Though 71 percent of the respondents said their agencies are committed to hiring
disabled workers, 40 percent said they have not received adequate training to
effectively manage disabled employees, according to the survey. The Telework
Exchange, continuing its push for advancing teleworking, and the Federal
Managers Association partnered on the study in advance of a conference set for
next week that will press the Obama administration on the teleworking option for
federal workers.


"Telework is certainly one way that would allow many people with disabilities to
utilize their talents on behalf of the government, while overcoming barriers
that may keep them out of the workplace," said Todd Wells, executive director of
the Federal Managers Association.


The survey also noted that 45 percent of federal hiring managers surveyed said
they have not received adequate training on retaining disabled employees. The
voluntary online survey of 513 federal hiring officers from across the
government was taken between Jan. 25 and Feb. 5, roughly a month before the
Office of Personnel Management held a training session for more than 600 federal
hiring managers about hiring and retaining disabled workers.


During the session OPM unveiled a new online training tool for hiring officials
that instructs them on how to use Schedule A, a noncompetitive hiring waiver
that permits agencies to hire severely disabled individuals, an OPM spokesman
said. The agency is developing a similar training tool for disabled applicants
wishing to be hired under the waiver.
"We are working diligently to attract and hire individuals with disabilities, "
OPM spokesman Edmund Byrnes said in a statement.


OPM and the Labor Department's Office of Disability Policy also will hold a
hiring fair on April 26 at the Washington Convention Center. More than 70
agencies with job openings have been invited to search a database with more than
4,000 resumes of disabled applicants. Agencies are encouraged to schedule
interviews with disabled applicants at the April event, OPM said.


A House committee last week approved a bill that would require the federal
government to develop plans to expand the policy across the federal workforce.
Agencies would be required to hire a telework managing officer, responsible for
overseeing implementation of the policy. By the end of fiscal 2011 OPM Director
John Berry, a teleworking advocate, hopes to double the number of teleworkers
from the 102,900 of fiscal year 2009.


The White House said Kareem Dale, President Obama's special assistant on
disability policy, will address the survey's findings at next week's conference.


Source: 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/28/AR20100328 02856.\html

From LBlake at nfb.org  Thu Apr  1 14:18:08 2010
From: LBlake at nfb.org (Blake, Lou Ann)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 10:18:08 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] 2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium
Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B0243F54C@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local>

ONE WEEK LEFT TO REGISTER!

 

Registration Deadline is April 8, 2010

 

2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium

 

Equality, Difference, and the Right to Live in the World

 

A Cross-Disability Symposium

 

April 15-16, 2010

at the

National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute

Baltimore, Maryland

 

Join many of the nation's leading disability rights advocates and
scholars in a cross-disability consideration of the concepts of equality
and difference as they relate to people with disabilities in

 

*        ADA/Rehabilitation Act

*        class actions & litigation issues

*        employment, 

*        education, 

*        medical treatment, and 

*        access to technology

 

 

KEYNOTE SPEAKERS:

 

Tom Perez

United States Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights 

 

Tony Coelho, Chairman of the Board

American Association of People with Disabilities

 

With an expanded format to incorporate workshops, the 2010 symposium
will provide more time for discussion, collaboration, and networking
with lawyers and other advocates who represent clients with a broad
range of disabilities.

 

2010 plenary session speakers will be:

 

*	Adrienne Asch, Director, Center for Ethics, Yeshiva University
*	Dan Brock, Director, Division of Medical Ethics, Harvard Medical
School
*	Richard Brown, Chief Judge, Wisconsin Court of Appeals
*	David Ferleger, Esquire, Law Office of David Ferleger
*	Dan Goldstein, Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP
*	Andrew Imparato, President and CEO, American Association of
People with Disabilities
*	Leslie Seid Margolis, Managing Attorney, Education Unit,
Maryland Disability Law Center
*	Mark Weber, Vincent dePaul Professor of Law, DePaul University
College of Law

 

2010 workshop facilitators will be:

 

*	Charles Brown, Director, Volunteer Lawyers for the Blind,
American Action Fund for Blind Children and Adults
*	Ira Burnim, Legal Director, Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law
*	Claudia Center, Senior Staff Attorney, The Legal Aid Society
Employment Law Center
*	Marc Charmatz, Senior Attorney, National Association of the Deaf
*	Robert Dinerstein, Professor of Law and Director of Clinical
Programs,  American University Washington College of Law
*	Eve Hill, Senior Vice President, Burton Blatt Institute
*	Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP
*	Christopher Kuczynski, Esquire, Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission
*	Jennifer Mathis, Deputy Legal Director, Bazelon Center for
Mental Health Law
*	Ruby Moore, Executive Director, Georgia Advocacy Office, Inc.
*	Ari Ne'eman, President, Autistic Self-Advocacy Network
*	Steven Schwartz, Executive Director, Center for Public
Representation

 

Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights Tom Perez and Tony Coelho,
Chairman of the Board for the American Association of People with
Disabilities, will be the keynote speakers.

 

Documentation for CLE credits will be provided.

 

Registration fee: $175

Student registration fee: $25

 

A limited number of scholarships to cover the registration fee will be
available to individuals with demonstrated financial need.

 

To learn more about the symposium and symposium sponsorship
opportunities, view the agenda, and register online, please visit
http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Law_Symposium.asp
<http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Law_Symposium.asp> .  You may also download from
this Web site a registration form to mail or fax.  Hotel information is
also available on the symposium Web site.

 

For additional information, contact:

 

Lou Ann Blake, JD

Law Symposium Coordinator

Jacobus tenBroek Library

Jernigan Institute

NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND

200 East Wells Street

at Jernigan Place

Baltimore, Maryland 21230

Telephone: 410-659-9314, ext. 2221

E-mail: lblake at nfb.org

 

 

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND LAWYERS

2010 SPRING MEETING

 

Do you have all your continuing legal education credits?  Do you want to
learn about disability law and issues impacting blind lawyers
specifically?

 

Join the National Association of Blind Lawyers (NABL) members for an
interactive Seminar in connection with the 2010 Jacobus tenBroek
Disability Law Symposium on Friday April 16th at 2:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.
Ever wondered how to deal with interviewing, hiring, and firing
employees including readers?  Want to talk about nuts and bolts like
handling exhibits?

 

If you sign up for both the seminar and the tenBroek Symposium which
takes place on April 15th and the morning of the 16th, you will receive
a discount on the NABL seminar.  Both the Symposium and the Seminar will
take place at the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute,
200 East Wells St. at Jernigan Place in Baltimore, Maryland.  

 

This Seminar is open to all. Seminar topics will include:

 

1. An update on recent case law affecting blind Americans;

2. Learning Braille and losing vision after becoming a lawyer;

3. Tips and tricks - trial techniques, examination of case files and
other documents, and   

    supervision of attorneys and other staff; 

4. Research tools accessible to blind attorneys; and 

5. Interviewing, selecting, and terminating staff. 

 

Admission to the NABL Seminar is $25 for those who have registered for
the tenBroek Symposium and $50 for those who have not.  For students,
admission is free.  Lunch will be provided.  For those seeking CLE,
certificates will be available.  

 

Don't miss this exciting opportunity to learn from and interact with
fellow blind and visually impaired attorneys, law students and others.  

 

For further information, or to register, contact Scott LaBarre,
President, NABL at slabarre at labarrelaw.com or 303 504-5979.  You should
register by April 8th or the cost of the seminar will increase by
$15.00.

 


From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Thu Apr  1 15:18:08 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 09:18:08 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: 2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium
Message-ID: <8BA97FA30E3849A893DF7F73F13037B3@labarre>

As you will see below, there is one week left to register for the tenBroek Syposium and the follow-on meeting of the National Association of Blind Lawyers.  Please get your registrations into us as soon as possible.
Thanks, 
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.
*******************


ONE WEEK LEFT TO REGISTER!

 

Registration Deadline is April 8, 2010

 

2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium

 

Equality, Difference, and the Right to Live in the World

 

A Cross-Disability Symposium

 

April 15-16, 2010

at the

National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute

Baltimore, Maryland

 

Join many of the nation's leading disability rights advocates and scholars in a cross-disability consideration of the concepts of equality and difference as they relate to people with disabilities in

 

·        ADA/Rehabilitation Act

·        class actions & litigation issues

·        employment, 

·        education, 

·        medical treatment, and 

·        access to technology

 

 

KEYNOTE SPEAKERS:

 

Tom Perez

United States Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights 

 

Tony Coelho, Chairman of the Board

American Association of People with Disabilities

 

With an expanded format to incorporate workshops, the 2010 symposium will provide more time for discussion, collaboration, and networking with lawyers and other advocates who represent clients with a broad range of disabilities.

 

2010 plenary session speakers will be:

 

  a.. Adrienne Asch, Director, Center for Ethics, Yeshiva University 
  b.. Dan Brock, Director, Division of Medical Ethics, Harvard Medical School 
  c.. Richard Brown, Chief Judge, Wisconsin Court of Appeals 
  d.. David Ferleger, Esquire, Law Office of David Ferleger 
  e.. Dan Goldstein, Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP 
  f.. Andrew Imparato, President and CEO, American Association of People with Disabilities 
  g.. Leslie Seid Margolis, Managing Attorney, Education Unit, Maryland Disability Law Center 
  h.. Mark Weber, Vincent dePaul Professor of Law, DePaul University College of Law
 

2010 workshop facilitators will be:

 

  a.. Charles Brown, Director, Volunteer Lawyers for the Blind, American Action Fund for Blind Children and Adults 
  b.. Ira Burnim, Legal Director, Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law 
  c.. Claudia Center, Senior Staff Attorney, The Legal Aid Society Employment Law Center 
  d.. Marc Charmatz, Senior Attorney, National Association of the Deaf 
  e.. Robert Dinerstein, Professor of Law and Director of Clinical Programs,  American University Washington College of Law 
  f.. Eve Hill, Senior Vice President, Burton Blatt Institute 
  g.. Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP 
  h.. Christopher Kuczynski, Esquire, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission 
  i.. Jennifer Mathis, Deputy Legal Director, Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law 
  j.. Ruby Moore, Executive Director, Georgia Advocacy Office, Inc. 
  k.. Ari Ne'eman, President, Autistic Self-Advocacy Network 
  l.. Steven Schwartz, Executive Director, Center for Public Representation
 

Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights Tom Perez and Tony Coelho, Chairman of the Board for the American Association of People with Disabilities, will be the keynote speakers.

 

Documentation for CLE credits will be provided.

 

Registration fee: $175

Student registration fee: $25

 

A limited number of scholarships to cover the registration fee will be available to individuals with demonstrated financial need.

 

To learn more about the symposium and symposium sponsorship opportunities, view the agenda, and register online, please visit http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Law_Symposium.asp.  You may also download from this Web site a registration form to mail or fax.  Hotel information is also available on the symposium Web site.

 

For additional information, contact:

 

Lou Ann Blake, JD

Law Symposium Coordinator

Jacobus tenBroek Library

Jernigan Institute

NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND

200 East Wells Street

at Jernigan Place

Baltimore, Maryland 21230

Telephone: 410-659-9314, ext. 2221

E-mail: lblake at nfb.org

 

 

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND LAWYERS

2010 SPRING MEETING

 

Do you have all your continuing legal education credits?  Do you want to learn about disability law and issues impacting blind lawyers specifically?

 

Join the National Association of Blind Lawyers (NABL) members for an interactive Seminar in connection with the 2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium on Friday April 16th at 2:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.  Ever wondered how to deal with interviewing, hiring, and firing employees including readers?  Want to talk about nuts and bolts like handling exhibits?

 

If you sign up for both the seminar and the tenBroek Symposium which takes place on April 15th and the morning of the 16th, you will receive a discount on the NABL seminar.  Both the Symposium and the Seminar will take place at the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, 200 East Wells St. at Jernigan Place in Baltimore, Maryland.  

 

This Seminar is open to all. Seminar topics will include:

 

1. An update on recent case law affecting blind Americans;

2. Learning Braille and losing vision after becoming a lawyer;

3. Tips and tricks - trial techniques, examination of case files and other documents, and   

    supervision of attorneys and other staff; 

4. Research tools accessible to blind attorneys; and 

5. Interviewing, selecting, and terminating staff. 

 

Admission to the NABL Seminar is $25 for those who have registered for the tenBroek Symposium and $50 for those who have not.  For students, admission is free.  Lunch will be provided.  For those seeking CLE, certificates will be available.  

 

Don't miss this exciting opportunity to learn from and interact with fellow blind and visually impaired attorneys, law students and others.  

 

For further information, or to register, contact Scott LaBarre, President, NABL at slabarre at labarrelaw.com or 303 504-5979.  You should register by April 8th or the cost of the seminar will increase by $15.00.

 

From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Thu Apr  1 15:16:49 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:16:49 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question
In-Reply-To: <74D1A6A637564CACAC3B7E070F25B36C@owner1b4ab732f>
References: <74D1A6A637564CACAC3B7E070F25B36C@owner1b4ab732f>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6CF2@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

The drop (outgoing) box at our condominium complex was also removed a
few years ago, due to thefts from our community mailboxes (incoming - so
not really seeing the connection there!).  Fortunately, the Homeowners
Association has an office in the complex, with a full-time secretary,
who agreed to place resident mail in the office outgoing basket, which
still exists due to the fact that the mailman must go into the office to
deliver items to the HOA.  It's not a legal/law solution, and I  am not
sure if your apartment manager is equally trustworthy and/or willing to
do this, but it has worked in our community.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Tammy Cantrell
Sent: Wednesday, 31 March, 2010 7:42 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question

I have a legal question I need some input on from those that know more
about this than I do.  I'll give you the situation 1st and then the
question.
    Situation:
    A totally blind person lives in an apartment complex.  The US Postal
Service delivers mail to each apartment.  For out going mail, there used
to be a drop box within the complex.  It was close to the office area
but was still available.
    Now the Postal Service has removed the drop box for the out going
mail.  The only way this blind person has of sending mail is either
stand around and wait for the mail carrier, entrust the out going mail
to somebody else to drop off or (here's the best one)  make an
appointment with Access which is their Paratransit service, pay $3.50
one way spend 3 plus hours and deliver the letter, then pay $3.50 again
to return home.  
    The removal of the out going drop box was not at the request of the
Apartment Complex.  The Postal Service stated that the drop box was not
cost effective, therefore, it had to be removed.
    Question:
    What legal steps can be taken to resolve this situation.
    There has already been useless conversations with the local Post
Office.  I would be very interested in hearing your suggestions.
    Thanks so much for your assistance! 

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
pima.gov




From mike.sandi at att.net  Thu Apr  1 16:29:15 2010
From: mike.sandi at att.net (Michael Groat)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 09:29:15 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along with the
	changing color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <034501cad059$730318d0$59094a70$@com>
References: <67ba2.6a1c5023.38e146eb@aol.com>	<47359EDB-A5DC-48DE-B38B-9E8D775E83E8@sbcglobal.net><auto-000145731384@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<034501cad059$730318d0$59094a70$@com>
Message-ID: <14766A2ED7204F73AF5DA6F764A1F483@PUTTPUTT>

Hello All,
I'm confused.  In reading the string of the emails, there are a few things
that constantly stand out and that is that it appears that many are trying
to avoid acknowledging their blindness.  I understand only too well about
desiring to hang on to sight as long as possible.  

What is wrong with using a White Cane and acknowledging one's vision loss?
>From my perspective, just carrying a white cane is the worst thing a person
can do.  Just carrying a white cane causes confusion for the sighted.  One
is either Vision Impaired or not.  If one is Vision Impaired, then why
aren't they using the white came.  Most of the sighted don't understand that
there a myriad of variations of vision impairment.  The Vision Impaired need
to think about what is seen by the sighted and not from their own viewpoint.
What may be logical to one may be confusing to another.  This is especially
true when it is between the Visually Impaired and the sighted where the
white cane is concerned.  Why not use the white cane and let people know
what you can do on your own?  

Many of the emails appear that many people are not addressing the whole
picture.  I have found that by using my white cane that many people do
acknowledge it and I am getting there respect by doing things on my own.
Yes, I have also received the comments of "may I be of assistance" or let me
help you".  One must remember that there many people that try to be a Good
Samaritan to everyone and they should not be insulted for their efforts,
even if we don't care for it.  When I come a cross a person that doesn't
know about the white cane, I then have the opportunity to inform them, which
will make it better for the next blind person.  Even if one is not totally
blind, the white cane needs to be used.  

I have found that by using my white cane (even though I have some peripheral
vision) and doing what I can on my own, that I am being accepted as is,
which reality is.

By acknowledging your blindness by using the white cane, you will be
accepted in time.  Remember, you need to help train the SIGHTED.

I have seen some of the emails addressing changing the color of the white
cane.  I am not sure just how the law is written, but there may be a legal
issue with changing the color of the cane.  

The white cane is universally accepted, so what is the problem with leaving
the dame white?  Is this idea just another way to avoid acknowledging one's
vision loss?  The white color is the most reflective color and that is part
of the safety issue.  

It also appears that many of the Vision Impaired is letting their Print
Impairment affect their view of the sighted and reality.  

The key to acceptance is to acknowledge and deal with one's vision
impairment.   


Being Accepted as an equal is the goal for all of us.  How one goes about
getting that acceptance may very well be the 'if and when' the acceptance is
obtained.  

Is there an EGO problem with using the white cane?
Michael



  

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 3:37 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness

>From my reading of Mark's statement....and he can defend his own....but I
didn't see where he said not to use a cane.

One problem in this e-mail  trail and others is that many times, myself
included, read what we want to out of a person's statement rather than what
they really said.  I guess, as in court, yowe cannot come to an amicable
resolution if the facts are not taken into consideration.

I'm sure there will be a statement regarding this one that may take a word
or two out of context.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of David Andrews
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 2:38 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness

Mark:

I suppose it is a goal to "blend in and not stand out" as you say, 
but not just in a physical sense.  I want to be a part of society, an 
equal, getting the bad and the good do along with my sighted 
counterparts.  With the tools available to me today, cane, dog etc., 
I will always stand out some.  So instead of trying to hide that I 
need to be proud of my blindness and promote a positive attitude 
towards those tools and blind people, so the stigma goes away.  There 
is a stigma because we are not equals -- our unemployment rate etc. 
prove that.  When we change that it won't matter that we carry a 
cane, use a dog etc.  We won't change attitudes by not using canes 
and the like though.

Dave

At 08:00 PM 3/28/2010, you wrote:
>I'm not quibbling with the white cane as a mobility tool.  However,
>recently a thread started here about carrying a white cane merely to
>identify oneself as blind, so as not to cause confusion when being
>unable to read name tags, etc., at a symposium or whatever.  It was
>put forth that canes should be carried, in addition to any value they
>may have as a mobility aid, merely to identify a blind person as
>blind, and to allow the sighted to give them a "handicap," in not
>being able to read name tags.  For this purpose, a sign declaring "I
>am blind, please act accordingly," would serve just as well, it seems
>to me, and the white cane then becomes a stigma-maker, not a tool.
>For purposes of this discussion, the "white," color of the cane
>becomes the "distress cry of the blind," or something; the identifying
>mark by which blind people are known and warn their surroundings that
>they are in fact in need of a handicap.  This is one reason why I want
>to use a cane that's other than white with a red tip.  It is very true
>that, even with my guide dog, when I wear sunglasses, I am often
>mistaken for a dog-walker, not a guide dog user.  It's like that old
>left-handed compliment, "No one would know you're blind, you do that
>so well."  That infuriates me when it's said to me.  It seems that
>some here are trying to avoid just this situation--being mistaken for
>a sighted person--when I should think that was the ultimate goal of
>any blind person--to blend in and not stand out.


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
il.com


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mike.sandi%40att.n
et



From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Thu Apr  1 17:08:31 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 10:08:31 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along with
 the changing color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <14766A2ED7204F73AF5DA6F764A1F483@PUTTPUTT>
References: <67ba2.6a1c5023.38e146eb@aol.com>
	<47359EDB-A5DC-48DE-B38B-9E8D775E83E8@sbcglobal.net><auto-000145731384@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<034501cad059$730318d0$59094a70$@com>
	<14766A2ED7204F73AF5DA6F764A1F483@PUTTPUTT>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6CF5@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

I have to admit sharing some ( a lot) of your confusion / amusement with
that - I too have a fair amount of peripheral vision, but tend to use
the cane outside (bright light makes it almost as difficult to see as
dimness) and in unfamiliar settings to avoid tripping, breaking things,
etc.  When people then see me pull out my portable video magnifier and
write things down (albeit in huge letters) they are confused and even
hostile at times.  I simply explain the situation and even joke (as is
true) that I used to think white canes were only used by folks with no
vision.  Until confronted with the reality that is what it is, a fair
majority of people neither know nor understand that "visually impaired"
includes folks with some usable sight.  

I'm not thrilled about using a cane, just as I wasn't thrilled using
crutches when I had unexpected foot surgery - but I can still see having
a little fun with it (like the strap decoration suggestion) so long as
it neither destroys it's purpose or usefulness.  Just a thought....

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Michael Groat
Sent: Thursday, 01 April, 2010 9:29 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along with
the changing color of the cane

Hello All,
I'm confused.  In reading the string of the emails, there are a few
things
that constantly stand out and that is that it appears that many are
trying
to avoid acknowledging their blindness.  I understand only too well
about
desiring to hang on to sight as long as possible.  

What is wrong with using a White Cane and acknowledging one's vision
loss?
>From my perspective, just carrying a white cane is the worst thing a
person
can do.  Just carrying a white cane causes confusion for the sighted.
One
is either Vision Impaired or not.  If one is Vision Impaired, then why
aren't they using the white came.  Most of the sighted don't understand
that
there a myriad of variations of vision impairment.  The Vision Impaired
need
to think about what is seen by the sighted and not from their own
viewpoint.
What may be logical to one may be confusing to another.  This is
especially
true when it is between the Visually Impaired and the sighted where the
white cane is concerned.  Why not use the white cane and let people know
what you can do on your own?  

Many of the emails appear that many people are not addressing the whole
picture.  I have found that by using my white cane that many people do
acknowledge it and I am getting there respect by doing things on my own.
Yes, I have also received the comments of "may I be of assistance" or
let me
help you".  One must remember that there many people that try to be a
Good
Samaritan to everyone and they should not be insulted for their efforts,
even if we don't care for it.  When I come a cross a person that doesn't
know about the white cane, I then have the opportunity to inform them,
which
will make it better for the next blind person.  Even if one is not
totally
blind, the white cane needs to be used.  

I have found that by using my white cane (even though I have some
peripheral
vision) and doing what I can on my own, that I am being accepted as is,
which reality is.

By acknowledging your blindness by using the white cane, you will be
accepted in time.  Remember, you need to help train the SIGHTED.

I have seen some of the emails addressing changing the color of the
white
cane.  I am not sure just how the law is written, but there may be a
legal
issue with changing the color of the cane.  

The white cane is universally accepted, so what is the problem with
leaving
the dame white?  Is this idea just another way to avoid acknowledging
one's
vision loss?  The white color is the most reflective color and that is
part
of the safety issue.  

It also appears that many of the Vision Impaired is letting their Print
Impairment affect their view of the sighted and reality.  

The key to acceptance is to acknowledge and deal with one's vision
impairment.   


Being Accepted as an equal is the goal for all of us.  How one goes
about
getting that acceptance may very well be the 'if and when' the
acceptance is
obtained.  

Is there an EGO problem with using the white cane?
Michael



  

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 3:37 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness

>From my reading of Mark's statement....and he can defend his own....but
I
didn't see where he said not to use a cane.

One problem in this e-mail  trail and others is that many times, myself
included, read what we want to out of a person's statement rather than
what
they really said.  I guess, as in court, yowe cannot come to an amicable
resolution if the facts are not taken into consideration.

I'm sure there will be a statement regarding this one that may take a
word
or two out of context.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
Behalf Of David Andrews
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 2:38 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness

Mark:

I suppose it is a goal to "blend in and not stand out" as you say, 
but not just in a physical sense.  I want to be a part of society, an 
equal, getting the bad and the good do along with my sighted 
counterparts.  With the tools available to me today, cane, dog etc., 
I will always stand out some.  So instead of trying to hide that I 
need to be proud of my blindness and promote a positive attitude 
towards those tools and blind people, so the stigma goes away.  There 
is a stigma because we are not equals -- our unemployment rate etc. 
prove that.  When we change that it won't matter that we carry a 
cane, use a dog etc.  We won't change attitudes by not using canes 
and the like though.

Dave

At 08:00 PM 3/28/2010, you wrote:
>I'm not quibbling with the white cane as a mobility tool.  However,
>recently a thread started here about carrying a white cane merely to
>identify oneself as blind, so as not to cause confusion when being
>unable to read name tags, etc., at a symposium or whatever.  It was
>put forth that canes should be carried, in addition to any value they
>may have as a mobility aid, merely to identify a blind person as
>blind, and to allow the sighted to give them a "handicap," in not
>being able to read name tags.  For this purpose, a sign declaring "I
>am blind, please act accordingly," would serve just as well, it seems
>to me, and the white cane then becomes a stigma-maker, not a tool.
>For purposes of this discussion, the "white," color of the cane
>becomes the "distress cry of the blind," or something; the identifying
>mark by which blind people are known and warn their surroundings that
>they are in fact in need of a handicap.  This is one reason why I want
>to use a cane that's other than white with a red tip.  It is very true
>that, even with my guide dog, when I wear sunglasses, I am often
>mistaken for a dog-walker, not a guide dog user.  It's like that old
>left-handed compliment, "No one would know you're blind, you do that
>so well."  That infuriates me when it's said to me.  It seems that
>some here are trying to avoid just this situation--being mistaken for
>a sighted person--when I should think that was the ultimate goal of
>any blind person--to blend in and not stand out.


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%4
0gma
il.com


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mike.sandi%40a
tt.n
et


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
pima.gov




From jsorozco at gmail.com  Thu Apr  1 17:51:40 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:51:40 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along with
	thechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <14766A2ED7204F73AF5DA6F764A1F483@PUTTPUTT>
Message-ID: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>

Michael,

Your message is mostly confusing to me.  Still, I'll say for my part that to
me the cane is a mobility aid, nothing more symbolic than a tool to help me
avoid obstacles.  While it certainly tells people that I am blind, I do not
mean for it to act as a banner for equality or acceptance.  Senior citizens
do not need to use a standard walking stick to signal to the public that
they are senior citizens and may require some assistance.  Pedestrians do
not need to wear reflective material to alert the public of their presence
on streets.  Frankly, I don't understand the concept behind safety in
reflective material for the cane, because blind people should strive to be
cautious travelers with or without the false sense of security from this
reflective material.  Not even a year ago a good friend of mine in Texas was
struck by a car with his cane fully extended.  If we're running the same
risk, why should blind people be confined to a specific image the public
deems necessary for our safety?  To me it's a label that may have been
relevant when these laws were passed in a prior era, but times have changed.
People do not like to be labeled.  People want to integrate into society
without the glaring use of reminders the general public feels it needs to
impose on people with disabilities, but most important, it's not a proposal
for a change in laws in the first place.  The discussion spun out of a few
individuals' contemplation to do something unique to their mobility tools.
I do not buy the argument that the general public would wake up one day and
be totally overwhelmed by the sight of blind people strolling about with
different colored canes.  At the bottom line rests the simple reality that
you respect your fellow man, and if you are approaching said fellow man in a
vehicle, you are careful driving past or around them regardless of whether
their cane is white, orange or whether they do not use a cane at all.
Anything less is suggesting we would think less of physically disabled
people if they one day decided to move about in little red wagons instead of
traditional wheelchairs.

Respectfully,

Joe Orozco

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Groat
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:29 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness 
along with thechanging color of the cane

Hello All,
I'm confused.  In reading the string of the emails, there are a 
few things
that constantly stand out and that is that it appears that many 
are trying
to avoid acknowledging their blindness.  I understand only too 
well about
desiring to hang on to sight as long as possible.  

What is wrong with using a White Cane and acknowledging one's 
vision loss?
>From my perspective, just carrying a white cane is the worst 
thing a person
can do.  Just carrying a white cane causes confusion for the 
sighted.  One
is either Vision Impaired or not.  If one is Vision Impaired, then why
aren't they using the white came.  Most of the sighted don't 
understand that
there a myriad of variations of vision impairment.  The Vision 
Impaired need
to think about what is seen by the sighted and not from their 
own viewpoint.
What may be logical to one may be confusing to another.  This 
is especially
true when it is between the Visually Impaired and the sighted where the
white cane is concerned.  Why not use the white cane and let people know
what you can do on your own?  

Many of the emails appear that many people are not addressing the whole
picture.  I have found that by using my white cane that many people do
acknowledge it and I am getting there respect by doing things on my own.
Yes, I have also received the comments of "may I be of 
assistance" or let me
help you".  One must remember that there many people that try 
to be a Good
Samaritan to everyone and they should not be insulted for their efforts,
even if we don't care for it.  When I come a cross a person that doesn't
know about the white cane, I then have the opportunity to 
inform them, which
will make it better for the next blind person.  Even if one is 
not totally
blind, the white cane needs to be used.  

I have found that by using my white cane (even though I have 
some peripheral
vision) and doing what I can on my own, that I am being accepted as is,
which reality is.

By acknowledging your blindness by using the white cane, you will be
accepted in time.  Remember, you need to help train the SIGHTED.

I have seen some of the emails addressing changing the color of 
the white
cane.  I am not sure just how the law is written, but there may 
be a legal
issue with changing the color of the cane.  

The white cane is universally accepted, so what is the problem 
with leaving
the dame white?  Is this idea just another way to avoid 
acknowledging one's
vision loss?  The white color is the most reflective color and 
that is part
of the safety issue.  

It also appears that many of the Vision Impaired is letting their Print
Impairment affect their view of the sighted and reality.  

The key to acceptance is to acknowledge and deal with one's vision
impairment.   


Being Accepted as an equal is the goal for all of us.  How one 
goes about
getting that acceptance may very well be the 'if and when' the 
acceptance is
obtained.  

Is there an EGO problem with using the white cane?
Michael



  

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of WB
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 3:37 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness

>From my reading of Mark's statement....and he can defend his 
own....but I
didn't see where he said not to use a cane.

One problem in this e-mail  trail and others is that many times, myself
included, read what we want to out of a person's statement 
rather than what
they really said.  I guess, as in court, yowe cannot come to an amicable
resolution if the facts are not taken into consideration.

I'm sure there will be a statement regarding this one that may 
take a word
or two out of context.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of David Andrews
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 2:38 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness

Mark:

I suppose it is a goal to "blend in and not stand out" as you say, 
but not just in a physical sense.  I want to be a part of society, an 
equal, getting the bad and the good do along with my sighted 
counterparts.  With the tools available to me today, cane, dog etc., 
I will always stand out some.  So instead of trying to hide that I 
need to be proud of my blindness and promote a positive attitude 
towards those tools and blind people, so the stigma goes away.  There 
is a stigma because we are not equals -- our unemployment rate etc. 
prove that.  When we change that it won't matter that we carry a 
cane, use a dog etc.  We won't change attitudes by not using canes 
and the like though.

Dave

At 08:00 PM 3/28/2010, you wrote:
>I'm not quibbling with the white cane as a mobility tool.  However,
>recently a thread started here about carrying a white cane merely to
>identify oneself as blind, so as not to cause confusion when being
>unable to read name tags, etc., at a symposium or whatever.  It was
>put forth that canes should be carried, in addition to any value they
>may have as a mobility aid, merely to identify a blind person as
>blind, and to allow the sighted to give them a "handicap," in not
>being able to read name tags.  For this purpose, a sign declaring "I
>am blind, please act accordingly," would serve just as well, it seems
>to me, and the white cane then becomes a stigma-maker, not a tool.
>For purposes of this discussion, the "white," color of the cane
>becomes the "distress cry of the blind," or something; the identifying
>mark by which blind people are known and warn their surroundings that
>they are in fact in need of a handicap.  This is one reason why I want
>to use a cane that's other than white with a red tip.  It is very true
>that, even with my guide dog, when I wear sunglasses, I am often
>mistaken for a dog-walker, not a guide dog user.  It's like that old
>left-handed compliment, "No one would know you're blind, you do that
>so well."  That infuriates me when it's said to me.  It seems that
>some here are trying to avoid just this situation--being mistaken for
>a sighted person--when I should think that was the ultimate goal of
>any blind person--to blend in and not stand out.


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et


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From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Thu Apr  1 19:58:22 2010
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:58:22 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along with
	thechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>
References: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>
Message-ID: <F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>

Can't resist:

I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool  
because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't  
like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor  
do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and  
helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,  
designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing  
for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve  
more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have  
pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed  
now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes  
a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak  
softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)

Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device  
to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very  
narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,  
I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping  
purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,  
as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I  
just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of  
the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,  
however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person  
who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,  
possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling  
that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the  
whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I  
am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or  
is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify  
with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I  
grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming  
obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is  
another thing altogether.

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Thu Apr  1 20:17:01 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:17:01 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along
	withthechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>
References: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>
	<F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>

Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever color traffic 
lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of uniformity???

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along 
withthechanging color of the cane


> Can't resist:
>
> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>
> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
> another thing altogether.
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2783 - Release Date: 04/01/10 
06:35:00



From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Thu Apr  1 21:33:15 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 15:33:15 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness
	alongwiththechanging color of the cane
References: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus><F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>
	<10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
Message-ID: <CF88DE229BE5481C86768398F8EB2A8C@labarre>

I do believe we have circled and circled again these arguments and think we 
need to move on.  It is an interesting philosophical discussion that we 
should have sometime over drinks or your favorite beverage.  However, the 
discussion has strayed away from the primary mission of this list.
Respectfully,
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.
President
National Association of Blind Lawyers
LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness 
alongwiththechanging color of the cane


> Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever color 
> traffic lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of 
> uniformity???
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along 
> withthechanging color of the cane
>
>
>> Can't resist:
>>
>> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
>> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
>> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
>> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
>> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
>> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
>> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
>> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
>> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
>> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
>> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
>> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>>
>> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
>> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
>> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
>> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
>> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
>> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
>> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
>> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
>> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
>> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
>> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
>> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
>> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
>> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
>> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
>> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
>> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
>> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
>> another thing altogether.
>>
>> Mark BurningHawk
>> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
>> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
>> Namaste!
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2783 - Release Date: 04/01/10 
> 06:35:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From jsorozco at gmail.com  Thu Apr  1 21:51:14 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 17:51:14 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness
	alongwiththechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
Message-ID: <CC3315920A374A208AB43F102CE100C9@Rufus>

The question was not directed at me, but I feel the counter argument here
may be a little stretched.  Traffic lights are for the safety of the whole.
White canes are for the identification of a few.  The government could have
just as easily decreed that canes should be a glaring yellow and achieve the
same level of safety it sought in limiting canes to the color white.  It is
my uneducated opinion that the government merely labeled these laws "White
Cane laws" because they were literally translating the image of the cane,
not because there was any real value in dictating that the canes be white.
We're talking about a person's independent choice of mobility assistance,
not the universal symbol of something like the handicap sticker for parking.
After all, service dogs are service dogs regardless of the breed or style of
harness the dog uses.

Joe Orozco

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 4:17 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness 
alongwiththechanging color of the cane

Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever 
color traffic 
lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of uniformity???

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along 
withthechanging color of the cane


> Can't resist:
>
> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>
> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
> another thing altogether.
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep
.deeley%40insightbb.com


----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2783 - Release Date: 
04/01/10 
06:35:00


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co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
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From rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com  Thu Apr  1 22:41:45 2010
From: rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 15:41:45 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and
	Blindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <CC3315920A374A208AB43F102CE100C9@Rufus>
References: <10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
	<CC3315920A374A208AB43F102CE100C9@Rufus>
Message-ID: <247C1B70E46741199F9DB3BD0B5EAAE2@RThomas>

The color white is easier for drivers to see. Using a different color cane
defeats this purpose. The laws are called "white cane" laws for a very good
reason. 

As blind people, We use a cane for mobility. Deaf people use hearing aids;
people with mobility impairments use wheelchairs; some people use contact
lenses. What is the problem? What is the issue?  We use a cane because we
need to.



Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:51 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and
Blindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane

The question was not directed at me, but I feel the counter argument here
may be a little stretched.  Traffic lights are for the safety of the whole.
White canes are for the identification of a few.  The government could have
just as easily decreed that canes should be a glaring yellow and achieve the
same level of safety it sought in limiting canes to the color white.  It is
my uneducated opinion that the government merely labeled these laws "White
Cane laws" because they were literally translating the image of the cane,
not because there was any real value in dictating that the canes be white.
We're talking about a person's independent choice of mobility assistance,
not the universal symbol of something like the handicap sticker for parking.
After all, service dogs are service dogs regardless of the breed or style of
harness the dog uses.

Joe Orozco

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 4:17 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness 
alongwiththechanging color of the cane

Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever 
color traffic 
lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of uniformity???

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along 
withthechanging color of the cane


> Can't resist:
>
> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>
> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
> another thing altogether.
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep
.deeley%40insightbb.com


----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2783 - Release Date: 
04/01/10 
06:35:00


_______________________________________________
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blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4993 (20100401) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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_______________________________________________
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blindlaw:
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rm.com





From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Thu Apr  1 23:38:46 2010
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:38:46 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along
	withthechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
References: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>
	<F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>
	<10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
Message-ID: <078C7213-B330-4D0F-A92E-02A508E38C84@sbcglobal.net>

Steve, that's a very inaccurate comparison.
First, the traffic light does not advertise to those around it that it  
needs help.  Traffic lights are designed to tell people what to do.   
The white of a white cane is designed to signal to all that a blind  
person is around.  A traffic light signals stop and go; a white cane  
signals "look out, I'm here!" some people don't want to tell everyone  
they're there.

Yes, I know the meaning of uniformity, and I understand it has its  
place; in this case, I reject it, which is my decision.  If it's  
uniformity you want, I suggest you move to a country that does not  
promote individualism and oppresses its members.
D
Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Fri Apr  2 00:20:51 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 20:20:51 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes
	andBlindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <247C1B70E46741199F9DB3BD0B5EAAE2@RThomas>
Message-ID: <C248E4CBCC3B4562899A1006FC0E9432@Rufus>

Okay, last response before Scott LaBarre comes after me with his own cane.
I don't understand why drivers need to identify people with the white cane.
It's understandable why bicyclists need to possess certain reflective
material to be spotted on the road, but unless blind people are going to be
walking willy-nilly in the middle of the street, what is the point of
drivers being able to see the white cane?  This argument suggests blind
people are not sufficiently good travelers and require drivers to be extra
alert of blind pedestrians.  Either we all undergo orientation and mobility
lessons to feel confident on the streets and show the public we can be
trusted to cross said streets, or we show the public that we need to be
handled with care, requiring the color white for no other reason than it
helps drivers pick us out.  I don't think anyone has thus far debated the
use of the cane itself.

Thanks for the lively discussion!

Joe Orozco

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 6:42 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes 
andBlindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane

The color white is easier for drivers to see. Using a different 
color cane
defeats this purpose. The laws are called "white cane" laws for 
a very good
reason. 

As blind people, We use a cane for mobility. Deaf people use 
hearing aids;
people with mobility impairments use wheelchairs; some people 
use contact
lenses. What is the problem? What is the issue?  We use a cane 
because we
need to.



Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:51 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and
Blindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane

The question was not directed at me, but I feel the counter 
argument here
may be a little stretched.  Traffic lights are for the safety 
of the whole.
White canes are for the identification of a few.  The 
government could have
just as easily decreed that canes should be a glaring yellow 
and achieve the
same level of safety it sought in limiting canes to the color 
white.  It is
my uneducated opinion that the government merely labeled these 
laws "White
Cane laws" because they were literally translating the image of 
the cane,
not because there was any real value in dictating that the 
canes be white.
We're talking about a person's independent choice of mobility 
assistance,
not the universal symbol of something like the handicap sticker 
for parking.
After all, service dogs are service dogs regardless of the 
breed or style of
harness the dog uses.

Joe Orozco

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up 
their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 4:17 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness 
alongwiththechanging color of the cane

Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever 
color traffic 
lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of uniformity???

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along 
withthechanging color of the cane


> Can't resist:
>
> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>
> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
> another thing altogether.
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep
.deeley%40insightbb.com


----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2783 - Release Date: 
04/01/10 
06:35:00


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 4993 (20100401) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature
database 4993 (20100401) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 


_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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blindlaw:
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s%40rjtlawfi
rm.com




_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 4993 (20100401) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4993 (20100401) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Fri Apr  2 00:57:52 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 20:57:52 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness
	alongwiththechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <078C7213-B330-4D0F-A92E-02A508E38C84@sbcglobal.net>
References: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>
	<F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>
	<10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
	<078C7213-B330-4D0F-A92E-02A508E38C84@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <C7E7E11D21F54F84AC3BDC00E3617C32@StevePC>

Why don't we just drop this particular thread.  Good luck on handling things 
the way you think they should be handled.
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness 
alongwiththechanging color of the cane


> Steve, that's a very inaccurate comparison.
> First, the traffic light does not advertise to those around it that it
> needs help.  Traffic lights are designed to tell people what to do.
> The white of a white cane is designed to signal to all that a blind
> person is around.  A traffic light signals stop and go; a white cane
> signals "look out, I'm here!" some people don't want to tell everyone
> they're there.
>
> Yes, I know the meaning of uniformity, and I understand it has its
> place; in this case, I reject it, which is my decision.  If it's
> uniformity you want, I suggest you move to a country that does not
> promote individualism and oppresses its members.
> D
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2783 - Release Date: 04/01/10 
06:35:00



From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Fri Apr  2 00:58:23 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 20:58:23 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes
	andBlindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <247C1B70E46741199F9DB3BD0B5EAAE2@RThomas>
References: <10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
	<CC3315920A374A208AB43F102CE100C9@Rufus>
	<247C1B70E46741199F9DB3BD0B5EAAE2@RThomas>
Message-ID: <1077AA37F3EC49C9ABC13D2C8AE709CB@StevePC>

The guy doesn't get it!

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes 
andBlindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane


> The color white is easier for drivers to see. Using a different color cane
> defeats this purpose. The laws are called "white cane" laws for a very 
> good
> reason.
>
> As blind people, We use a cane for mobility. Deaf people use hearing aids;
> people with mobility impairments use wheelchairs; some people use contact
> lenses. What is the problem? What is the issue?  We use a cane because we
> need to.
>
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
>
>
> Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
>
> THOMAS & ASSOCIATES
>
> www.californiaemployersattorneys.com
>
>
>
> Orange County Office
>
> 4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101
>
> Newport Beach, California 92660
>
> T: (949) 752-0101
>
> F: (949) 257-4756
>
> M: (949) 466-7238
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:51 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and
> Blindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane
>
> The question was not directed at me, but I feel the counter argument here
> may be a little stretched.  Traffic lights are for the safety of the 
> whole.
> White canes are for the identification of a few.  The government could 
> have
> just as easily decreed that canes should be a glaring yellow and achieve 
> the
> same level of safety it sought in limiting canes to the color white.  It 
> is
> my uneducated opinion that the government merely labeled these laws "White
> Cane laws" because they were literally translating the image of the cane,
> not because there was any real value in dictating that the canes be white.
> We're talking about a person's independent choice of mobility assistance,
> not the universal symbol of something like the handicap sticker for 
> parking.
> After all, service dogs are service dogs regardless of the breed or style 
> of
> harness the dog uses.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 4:17 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness
> alongwiththechanging color of the cane
>
> Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever
> color traffic
> lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of uniformity???
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along
> withthechanging color of the cane
>
>
>> Can't resist:
>>
>> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
>> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
>> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
>> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
>> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
>> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
>> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
>> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
>> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
>> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
>> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
>> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>>
>> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
>> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
>> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
>> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
>> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
>> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
>> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
>> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
>> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
>> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
>> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
>> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
>> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
>> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
>> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
>> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
>> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
>> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
>> another thing altogether.
>>
>> Mark BurningHawk
>> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
>> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
>> Namaste!
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep
> .deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
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06:35:00



From shaunreim at gmail.com  Fri Apr  2 01:17:31 2010
From: shaunreim at gmail.com (ShaunR)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 19:17:31 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along
	withthechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
References: <8E93A7A37CA048B1B91CE64D69F04A4B@Rufus>
	<F5523B3E-6B66-4114-9E42-C5A4BDBC7EFE@sbcglobal.net>
	<10E1449F3FA34BCBABE159757138FB1A@StevePC>
Message-ID: <h2m7805eb4d1004011817od61f66d2q8f79b0f9d1faa897@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I'm new to the list, and it's been interesting following this
conversation thread. I can definitely see the merit in both points of
view, and ultimately, it seems to come down to one's personal
perspective. I for one enjoy the communication aspect of my white
cane, despite the stigma/preconceived notions that it brings, but I
see nothing wrong with a person deciding to change the color of their
cane if they choose. Yes, they may be losing an- at times- useful
communication tool, but the white cane does come with real downsides,
and they should feel free to abandon it if they wish.

Personally, I like the communicative power of the white cane I carry.
Before I began carrying a cane, I constantly found myself in awkward
situations with sighted people. Whether I was bumping into people,
missing extended hands, mysteriously tripping over stuff, stepping on
toes or the legs of people sitting on the ground or having thrown
items bounce off me, I always struggled with the problem of when and
when not to provide information about my eyesight. Half the time, when
I did decide to let them in on it, I found that they didn't really
understand the explanation anyway. The white cane cuts through all
that mucky nonsense with people I don't know, and people I do know
well develop a strong sense of my strengths and weaknesses despite it.

I remember this time I was at a train station in Venice Italy trying
to keep up with my wife and brother-in-law. We were in a tunnel under
the train tracks, and the only light coming into the environment was
from stairwells that went up to the surface. My wife and
brother-in-law could see well, but being nightblind, I couldn't. I was
walking pretty fast, and I bumped into this HUGE guy who stepped out
of a stairwell and right in front of me. I said sorry, but he just
stood there staring at me like he wanted to kill me. Luckily, I booked
it out of there in a hurry, but if I'd stuck around he might have
pummeled me. In that situation, a weapon probably wouldn't have helped
me (he would have just took it away and used it on me), but a white
cane would have diffused the situation instantly.

I like that.

Seriously, though, to each there own. Both arguments have merit.

Shaun Reimers


On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Steve P. Deeley
<stevep.deeley at insightbb.com> wrote:
> Why don't we just let each city and municipality use what ever color traffic
> lights they choose to install.  Do you know the meaning of uniformity???
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark BurningHawk"
> <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes and Blindness along
> withthechanging color of the cane
>
>
>> Can't resist:
>>
>> I, personally,would like to switch the color of my mobility tool
>> because I want it to be *ONLY* that; a mobility tool.  I frankly don't
>> like the associations attached to the white cane as a white cane, nor
>> do I like the color and its connotations of surrender and
>> helplessness.  I don't like the construction o the cane as is,
>> designed above all else to be light and to vibrate easily, allowing
>> for sensitivity to surfaces.  I also think that a cane should serve
>> more than just one purpose as a tool, and in earlier posts I have
>> pointed out that, as a weapon, for one example, the cane as designed
>> now fails utterly.  I can speak from experience to say that sometimes
>> a weapon is a good thing to have--no where did Lao Tsu say "Speak
>> softly and carry a long, slender, flimsy stick." :)
>>
>> Since I find the whole concept of using a long poking / tapping device
>> to find out about your environment to be archaic and clumsy, very
>> narrow-minded thinking, if I am ever forced to adopt such a strategy,
>> I would like said device to serve more than just that poking/tapping
>> purpose.  I also do *NOT* want attention drawn to me over blindness,
>> as I don't identify myself as a "blind man," but rather as a man; I
>> just happen to be blind, and that only some of the time--the rest of
>> the time, I just can't see.  It's this image I prefer to put forth,
>> however misunderstood it might be, to the world; not that of a person
>> who demands the world take note of him as possibly needing help,
>> possibly allowing himself to be led about by the hand, and signaling
>> that he accepts a second-class status.  That's my position on the
>> whole color thing, and my reasoning for the posts I sent last week.  I
>> am not advocating for one second that blindness should be ignored or
>> is something to be ashamed of, but neither is it something to identify
>> with or be proud of in its own right.  Who out there says, "When I
>> grow up, I want to be a blind person!"  Being proud of overcoming
>> obstacles created by others' opposition to / fear of blindness is
>> another thing altogether.
>>
>> Mark BurningHawk
>> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
>> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
>> Namaste!
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
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>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2783 - Release Date: 04/01/10
> 06:35:00
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>


From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Fri Apr  2 01:26:46 2010
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 18:26:46 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] I'm Confused - RE: Canes
	andBlindnessalongwiththechanging color of the cane
In-Reply-To: <C248E4CBCC3B4562899A1006FC0E9432@Rufus>
References: <C248E4CBCC3B4562899A1006FC0E9432@Rufus>
Message-ID: <25C00711-C2C8-44F3-BE95-7CCFD4F8A641@sbcglobal.net>

I personally did not work with a mobility instructor when learning to  
navigate streets, except when a very small child, on basic cane  
technique, and a bit in 2008, at which time the person said she had  
nothing she could teach me.  I agree 100$ that the only reason a blind  
person needs to be easy to spot is because of the assumption that said  
blind person is a poor traveler or a liability; this is why I rail  
against the white reflective color; that, and it makes you an easier  
target for those who would mess with you--and yes, people *WILL* mug,  
rob, or try to beat up blind people; no one is untouchable these days,  
don't kid yourself.  This is just one of the stigma that the *WHITE*  
in the white cane carries and that I avoid like the plague.  I can be  
just as competent, and not stand out as much, with a cedar staff or,  
for that matter, a branch cut from a tree, if need be (did that once,  
in an emergency), and no one questions my competence.  Now, though,  
with my hearing loss becoming quite the nuisance, I might choose to  
use a white one, because while I am highly skilled, I'm not stupid or  
too proud to realize that I, with a dual disability, might in fact be  
a liability. So, if you want people to notice you, by all means, wear  
a white vest an carry a white cane and so on.  But, for as long as I  
can, whenever I can, I will reject this and the other stigma...

Okay, sorry Scott; I'm done. again.  Until I'm not. again. :)

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From k7uij at panix.com  Fri Apr  2 02:22:16 2010
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 19:22:16 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question
References: <74D1A6A637564CACAC3B7E070F25B36C@owner1b4ab732f>
	<F2D2D830E33943A0B8404D74771CB46F@spike>
Message-ID: <2008999F40564DDB85F3A126A00A5083@owner1e06aeb63>

The ADA wouldn't apply in any event as it does not apply to the Federal 
government. I agree with Chuck but were any statute to apply, it would be 
Section 504 of the Rehab Act of 1973 as Amended.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Postal question


> This has been a trend that has been happening with the Post Office for the 
> past several years. AS the blind person is not specifically being 
> discriminated against and all residents are doing without the drop box I 
> doubt that this would come under the ADA. There have been times that I 
> have contacted the Post Office to let them know when I had outgoing mail 
> to be picked up such as Braille books to be returned to the library and 
> left them outside my door for the mailman to pick up. The local Post 
> office station has been receptive to this procedure. For other mail I live 
> within walking distance to a Post Office or else will mail it from one of 
> the offices I work out of.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tammy Cantrell" <t.l.cantrell at comcast.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 7:41 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Postal question
>
>
>>I have a legal question I need some input on from those that know more 
>>about this than I do.  I'll give you the situation 1st and then the 
>>question.
>>    Situation:
>>    A totally blind person lives in an apartment complex.  The US Postal 
>> Service delivers mail to each apartment.  For out going mail, there used 
>> to be a drop box within the complex.  It was close to the office area but 
>> was still available.
>>    Now the Postal Service has removed the drop box for the out going 
>> mail. The only way this blind person has of sending mail is either stand 
>> around and wait for the mail carrier, entrust the out going mail to 
>> somebody else to drop off or (here's the best one)  make an appointment 
>> with Access which is their Paratransit service, pay $3.50 one way spend 3 
>> plus hours and deliver the letter, then pay $3.50 again to return home.
>>    The removal of the out going drop box was not at the request of the 
>> Apartment Complex.  The Postal Service stated that the drop box was not 
>> cost effective, therefore, it had to be removed.
>>    Question:
>>    What legal steps can be taken to resolve this situation.
>>    There has already been useless conversations with the local Post 
>> Office.  I would be very interested in hearing your suggestions.
>>    Thanks so much for your assistance!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com 



From dandrews at visi.com  Fri Apr  2 03:08:42 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 22:08:42 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] On Topic
Message-ID: <auto-000147059113@mailfront1.g2host.com>

OK OK, this is not the cane discussion list, or the color of my cane 
discussion list.  Let's stick to the law and blindness, this one has 
drifted far enough and gone on long enough.

David Andrews, List Owner



From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Fri Apr  2 13:41:32 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 07:41:32 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] On Topic
References: <auto-000147059113@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <28F501C4BB4F4884AA55984C99CA3ACB@labarre>

Agreed, I think that the discussion of the law relevant to the color of 
one's cane has been exhausted.  The rest, although an interesting 
philosophical discussion, is not germane to this list.  It may be an 
interesting topic for some of our other discussion lists and I am sure a 
whole bunch of folks would be happy to engage in that philosophical debate. 
As the last point on this topic, I should mention that our founder, Dr. 
tenBroek, did a great deal of work in the 40's, 50's, and 60's to get "white 
cane" statutes adopted so that the cane and dog  were recognized as mobility 
tools for the blind.  Additionally, those statutes were designed to extend 
civil rights protections to our population as well.  In fact, Dr. tenBroek 
attempted to get disability protection into the  landmark Civil Rights Act 
of 1964.  I wish I could have met Dr. tenBroek because he truly was a man 
way ahead of his time.  His teachings and legal arguments are still the 
foundation of our legal advocacy today.  Again, I thank everyone for  the 
interesting discussion and now it's time to move onto new topics. 
Additionally, I wish all of you a terrific  holiday weekend!
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.
President, NABL
LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 9:08 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] On Topic


> OK OK, this is not the cane discussion list, or the color of my cane 
> discussion list.  Let's stick to the law and blindness, this one has 
> drifted far enough and gone on long enough.
>
> David Andrews, List Owner
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From khagen12 at q.com  Fri Apr  2 20:39:32 2010
From: khagen12 at q.com (kathleen hagen)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:39:32 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
References: <auto-000018901081@mailback2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP371D49551E121D46F3CFD6C91C0@phx.gbl>

Hi Steve,

Question.  I just upgraded my Verizon and am getting an HTC Ozone, as they 
call their brand.  Anyway, do I order the Mobile Speaks software separately? 
If so, where from, and how do I install it?
Thanks for any help you can give.
Kathy Hagen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access


> Cathryn,
>
> Like Joe, I am also using an accessible cellphone through Sprint.  Maybe I 
> can shed a little light on a couple of things.
>
> First, the KNFB Reader phone is as expensive as it is mostly because of 
> the KNFB reader software rather than the phone.  However the total price 
> has come down
> to around $1,500.  Of this, $995 is for the software that converts print 
> into spoken text.  That is about the same price as the K-1000 software 
> that performs that
> function on a personal computer.  Speaking very generally, the phone 
> itself is roughly $300 and the software or "screen reader" that makes the 
> phone functions talk
> is around another $200.  The price estimated here for the phone is based 
> upon buying a phone from a dealer without going through a phone company. 
> Generally if
> you buy a phone through a service provider and sign a two year contract or 
> renew one for two years, the phone company in effect subsidizes the cost 
> of a new
> phone by $150 or $200 or so.  Therefore, if you sign a new contract or 
> extend an existing one, it is very possible that you can get a phone that 
> can be made
> accessible for $100 or so, but you still have to buy a "screen reader" for 
> the phone which will probably cost you another $200.
>
> However, as Joe mentioned, there are some phones out there which have some 
> speech built in.  These phones can cost you less than $100 with a new 
> contract or
> an extension, and no screen reader is required.  However, phones with 
> built-in speech generally cannot handle e-mail or web browsing, but they 
> can usually handle
> text messaging now and allow access to your contacts.  I believe that 
> Sprint still has the LG Rumor 2 and the LG Lotus and there could be others 
> by now that fit this
> category.
>
> You cannot add a screen reader to just any phone.  Like computers, the 
> more advanced phones have "operating systems," and some of these do allow 
> a screen
> reader to be added.  The most common operating system on phones that can 
> be used with Sprint and Verizon is called Windows Mobile.  There is a 
> screen reader
> called Mobile Speak that works with many of these phones.  Such phones are 
> sometimes called SmartPhones or Pocket PC's.  Common brands include 
> Samsung
> and Joe mentioned and also HTC but there are others.  Many of the Palm 
> phones cannot be used with a screen reader.
>
> Many of the phones that work on T-Mobil and AT&T use the Simbian operating 
> system.  There is another screen reader that is used on these phones 
> called TALKS.
> However, Mobile Speak also works on some of these phones, and TALKS works 
> on certain Verizon phones now.  Phones made by Nokia are most common in 
> this
> category, but not all Nokia phones are capablt of supporting a screen 
> reader.
>
> I just went through the process of buying an HTC Snap phone which I use on 
> Sprint with Mobile Speak, and I found the whole business to be confusing 
> at best.
> Therefore, I hope the above helps a little, but keep in mind that 
> something I have written could easily have become out of date since I 
> started this note.  <smile>
> Still, if you can keep in mind that some phones are simply not accessible, 
> some have some built-in accessibility for basics, and some that use 
> Windows Mobile or
> Simbian operating systems can be made accessible with the addition of a 
> screen reader, you will be off to a good start.  Then also remember that 
> you can usually get
> a big discount buying a phone from a service provider with a new contract 
> or contract extension.  Good luck.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson  ,
>
> On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:03:52 -0400, Cathryn Bonnette wrote:
>
>>Thanks much- Do you know if it is possible to purchase the voice software 
>>to
>>install on a cell?
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>Behalf Of Joe Orozco
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:47 AM
>>To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>
>>I have a Samsung Intrepid through Sprint.  I switched over from Verizon,
>>better deal on unlimited data plan.  The only advantage through Verizon, I
>>think, is that you can purchase their HTC Ozone with Mobile Speak 
>>installed.
>>Someone can correct me on that, and Verizon also carries the LG line that
>>provides moderate accessibility.  I also live in DC and both carriers are
>>the best ones here in terms of reception.
>
>>Joe Orozco
>
>>"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>>some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cathryn Bonnette
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:03 AM
>>To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>>Subject: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>
>>Greetings to All:
>
>>
>
>>Wondering if anyone can offer guidance on good deals, best
>>companies, etc.
>>for cell phones or cell/internet packages.  I confess I don't
>>have $2,000.00
>>to spend on the KNFB version, though it sounds great.  I have heard the
>>frustration from Verizon employees in their center for customers with
>>disabilities that no one listens to their attempts to advocate.
>> I observed
>>yesterday that several cell phones using "Talks" voice software are no
>>longer available.
>
>>
>
>>I'm hoping to shortcut similar research on several companies by seeking
>>wisdom from the group.
>
>>
>
>>Thanks in advance for any tips you may have to offer, and thanks for
>>listening-
>
>>
>
>>Cathryn
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindlaw mailing list
>>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>info for blindlaw:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
>>co%40gmail.com
>>
>
>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of
>>virus signature database 4984 (20100330) __________
>
>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>>http://www.eset.com
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>>
>
>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
>>signature
>>database 4985 (20100330) __________
>
>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>>_______________________________________________
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>>blindlaw:
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>>0verizon.net
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2777 - Release Date: 03/30/10
>>06:32:00
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>>_______________________________________________
>>blindlaw mailing list
>>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>blindlaw:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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>
>
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> signature database 4986 (20100330) __________
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From khagen12 at q.com  Fri Apr  2 21:04:25 2010
From: khagen12 at q.com (kathleen hagen)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 15:04:25 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
References: <auto-000018901081@mailback2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP33E746BE48F8C8516A4B16C91C0@phx.gbl>

Oops.  I didn't mean that last message asking for more info about mobile 
speak to go to the whole list. Just to Steve Jacobson.  Sorry.
Kathy Hagen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access


> Cathryn,
>
> Like Joe, I am also using an accessible cellphone through Sprint.  Maybe I 
> can shed a little light on a couple of things.
>
> First, the KNFB Reader phone is as expensive as it is mostly because of 
> the KNFB reader software rather than the phone.  However the total price 
> has come down
> to around $1,500.  Of this, $995 is for the software that converts print 
> into spoken text.  That is about the same price as the K-1000 software 
> that performs that
> function on a personal computer.  Speaking very generally, the phone 
> itself is roughly $300 and the software or "screen reader" that makes the 
> phone functions talk
> is around another $200.  The price estimated here for the phone is based 
> upon buying a phone from a dealer without going through a phone company. 
> Generally if
> you buy a phone through a service provider and sign a two year contract or 
> renew one for two years, the phone company in effect subsidizes the cost 
> of a new
> phone by $150 or $200 or so.  Therefore, if you sign a new contract or 
> extend an existing one, it is very possible that you can get a phone that 
> can be made
> accessible for $100 or so, but you still have to buy a "screen reader" for 
> the phone which will probably cost you another $200.
>
> However, as Joe mentioned, there are some phones out there which have some 
> speech built in.  These phones can cost you less than $100 with a new 
> contract or
> an extension, and no screen reader is required.  However, phones with 
> built-in speech generally cannot handle e-mail or web browsing, but they 
> can usually handle
> text messaging now and allow access to your contacts.  I believe that 
> Sprint still has the LG Rumor 2 and the LG Lotus and there could be others 
> by now that fit this
> category.
>
> You cannot add a screen reader to just any phone.  Like computers, the 
> more advanced phones have "operating systems," and some of these do allow 
> a screen
> reader to be added.  The most common operating system on phones that can 
> be used with Sprint and Verizon is called Windows Mobile.  There is a 
> screen reader
> called Mobile Speak that works with many of these phones.  Such phones are 
> sometimes called SmartPhones or Pocket PC's.  Common brands include 
> Samsung
> and Joe mentioned and also HTC but there are others.  Many of the Palm 
> phones cannot be used with a screen reader.
>
> Many of the phones that work on T-Mobil and AT&T use the Simbian operating 
> system.  There is another screen reader that is used on these phones 
> called TALKS.
> However, Mobile Speak also works on some of these phones, and TALKS works 
> on certain Verizon phones now.  Phones made by Nokia are most common in 
> this
> category, but not all Nokia phones are capablt of supporting a screen 
> reader.
>
> I just went through the process of buying an HTC Snap phone which I use on 
> Sprint with Mobile Speak, and I found the whole business to be confusing 
> at best.
> Therefore, I hope the above helps a little, but keep in mind that 
> something I have written could easily have become out of date since I 
> started this note.  <smile>
> Still, if you can keep in mind that some phones are simply not accessible, 
> some have some built-in accessibility for basics, and some that use 
> Windows Mobile or
> Simbian operating systems can be made accessible with the addition of a 
> screen reader, you will be off to a good start.  Then also remember that 
> you can usually get
> a big discount buying a phone from a service provider with a new contract 
> or contract extension.  Good luck.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson  ,
>
> On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:03:52 -0400, Cathryn Bonnette wrote:
>
>>Thanks much- Do you know if it is possible to purchase the voice software 
>>to
>>install on a cell?
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>Behalf Of Joe Orozco
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:47 AM
>>To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>
>>I have a Samsung Intrepid through Sprint.  I switched over from Verizon,
>>better deal on unlimited data plan.  The only advantage through Verizon, I
>>think, is that you can purchase their HTC Ozone with Mobile Speak 
>>installed.
>>Someone can correct me on that, and Verizon also carries the LG line that
>>provides moderate accessibility.  I also live in DC and both carriers are
>>the best ones here in terms of reception.
>
>>Joe Orozco
>
>>"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>>some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cathryn Bonnette
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:03 AM
>>To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>>Subject: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>
>>Greetings to All:
>
>>
>
>>Wondering if anyone can offer guidance on good deals, best
>>companies, etc.
>>for cell phones or cell/internet packages.  I confess I don't
>>have $2,000.00
>>to spend on the KNFB version, though it sounds great.  I have heard the
>>frustration from Verizon employees in their center for customers with
>>disabilities that no one listens to their attempts to advocate.
>> I observed
>>yesterday that several cell phones using "Talks" voice software are no
>>longer available.
>
>>
>
>>I'm hoping to shortcut similar research on several companies by seeking
>>wisdom from the group.
>
>>
>
>>Thanks in advance for any tips you may have to offer, and thanks for
>>listening-
>
>>
>
>>Cathryn
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>blindlaw mailing list
>>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>info for blindlaw:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
>>co%40gmail.com
>>
>
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>
>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
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>>signature
>>database 4985 (20100330) __________
>
>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>>http://www.eset.com
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>
>
>>_______________________________________________
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>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>blindlaw:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cathrynisfinally%4
>>0verizon.net
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2777 - Release Date: 03/30/10
>>06:32:00
>
>
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>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>blindlaw:
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>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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>
>
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> signature database 4986 (20100330) __________
>
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>
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>
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From joramsey at cox.net  Sat Apr  3 19:34:06 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:34:06 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
Message-ID: <88CA19DA66AA41F5ABFC16C522E8EC66@noneeb869fea9a>

Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a problem. When
the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to discover
what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
Cordially,
John
 

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453


This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 

 
 
 

From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Sun Apr  4 00:26:34 2010
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:26:34 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
References: <88CA19DA66AA41F5ABFC16C522E8EC66@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <C845F2261B8943E3A9AD71FC9FD6A834@none8a46117901>

    Hi John:
I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience in a 
challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse party.
The few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue with the 
State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them (usually the attorney 
general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem for 
me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the 
unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be used 
as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on their 
printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF 
that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader.
With all due respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all 
PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you 
what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that 
assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive 
technology can handle it from there.
Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like, 
because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before.
This issue is fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list 
posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it 
all.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a problem. 
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2788 - Release Date: 04/03/10 
18:32:00



From dravant at ameritech.net  Sun Apr  4 02:01:42 2010
From: dravant at ameritech.net (denise avant)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 21:01:42 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <C845F2261B8943E3A9AD71FC9FD6A834@none8a46117901>
References: <88CA19DA66AA41F5ABFC16C522E8EC66@noneeb869fea9a>
	<C845F2261B8943E3A9AD71FC9FD6A834@none8a46117901>
Message-ID: <000901cad39a$c60e4a10$522ade30$@net>

Hello,
I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office.
However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels, and I
have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or regular adobe.
Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant Attorney Generals are
very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file. But this is done on an
individual basis. I'm not certain there is an overall policy by the offices
itself to do that.
Things may be different at the federal level as the various prosecutors and
defense as well as the courts have communicated in an electronic manner for
years.
If you have not already done so, perhaps you should find someone in the
public defenders office and other offices to explain why your assistive
technology cannot handle their documents.
Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an attempt
to educate and see if this gets the job done.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Ross Doerr
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery

    Hi John:
I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience in a 
challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse party.
The few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue with the 
State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them (usually the attorney 
general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem for 
me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the 
unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be used 
as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on their 
printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF 
that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader.
With all due respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all 
PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you 
what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that 
assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive 
technology can handle it from there.
Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like, 
because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before.
This issue is fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list 
posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it 
all.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a problem. 
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn
er.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2788 - Release Date: 04/03/10 
18:32:00


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritec
h.net
 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 4997 (20100403) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 4997 (20100403) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com
 


From dravant at ameritech.net  Sun Apr  4 03:26:06 2010
From: dravant at ameritech.net (denise avant)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 22:26:06 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA AND DISCOVERY
Message-ID: <000301cad3a6$90ac6710$b2053530$@net>

HELLO,

Just one more thing. If you have openbook, you may try to use the freedom
import printer to pull in the document, so that you can read it. I think
k1000 has a similar feature.

 


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Apr  4 08:10:06 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 01:10:06 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <88CA19DA66AA41F5ABFC16C522E8EC66@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <88CA19DA66AA41F5ABFC16C522E8EC66@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <2532D51C496D4D09A4D060348B702934@spike>

If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be sent 
through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in to a 
PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if the 
documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by OCR 
software.
Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a problem. 
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From joramsey at cox.net  Sun Apr  4 12:20:06 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 08:20:06 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <000901cad39a$c60e4a10$522ade30$@net>
Message-ID: <4661C33BFC4244589A4D50223A62DA36@noneeb869fea9a>

Hello Denise,
I truly appreciate your suggestion and am in the process of doing that,
however, in the meantime, my client has already suffered one adverse ruling
based on a handwritten image scanned into a computer with no readily
identifiable title. Also, as I have already mentioned, all of their PDF
files are in accessible whereas most every other PDF image I receive is
accessible. It is definitely in whatever method of scanning that they are
using.
I will keep you posted.
Cordially,
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of denise avant
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:02 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


Hello,
I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office.
However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels, and I
have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or regular adobe.
Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant Attorney Generals are
very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file. But this is done on an
individual basis. I'm not certain there is an overall policy by the offices
itself to do that. Things may be different at the federal level as the
various prosecutors and defense as well as the courts have communicated in
an electronic manner for years. If you have not already done so, perhaps you
should find someone in the public defenders office and other offices to
explain why your assistive technology cannot handle their documents.
Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an attempt
to educate and see if this gets the job done.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Ross Doerr
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery

    Hi John:
I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience in a 
challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse party. The
few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue with the 
State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them (usually the attorney 
general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem for 
me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the 
unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be used 
as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on their 
printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF 
that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader. With all due
respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all 
PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you 
what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that 
assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive 
technology can handle it from there.
Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like, 
because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before. This issue is
fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list 
posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it 
all.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a 
> problem.
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn
er.com


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From joramsey at cox.net  Sun Apr  4 12:22:49 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 08:22:49 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <2532D51C496D4D09A4D060348B702934@spike>
Message-ID: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>

That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original
handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind
practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely manner.
I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is required or
should be required to provide the text documents in an accessible format. I
am sure the ultimate answer is yes.


John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be sent

through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in to a

PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if the

documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by OCR 
software.
Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a 
> problem.
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net 


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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From lists at zufelt.ca  Sun Apr  4 13:15:13 2010
From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 09:15:13 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <7C4A1CAC-08BE-4FE4-8215-935EE474843B@zufelt.ca>

I find this thread to be quite interesting.  To expand for a moment, I was speaking to a woman in Canada last fall who was in a civil action with a non-governmental body.  The woman was blind and the question arose as to whether the other party in her case was responsible for providing submissions and documents in an accessible form.  There was no judicial treatment o the issue.  However, the accessibility centre at the courthouse at which she was dealing was able to provide some services to assist her.  This was after suggesting that she obtain a volunteer from a charity to assist her with reading the documents.


Everett Zufelt
http://zufelt.ca

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt



On 2010-04-04, at 8:22 AM, John Ramsey wrote:

> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original
> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind
> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely manner.
> I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is required or
> should be required to provide the text documents in an accessible format. I
> am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
> 
> 
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
> 
> P.O. Box 6063
> 
> Gainesville, FL 32627   
> 
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
> 
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
> 
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
> 
> 
> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be sent
> 
> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in to a
> 
> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if the
> 
> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by OCR 
> software.
> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
> 
> 
>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a 
>> problem.
>> When
>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
>> discover
>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>> Cordially,
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>> 
>> P.O. Box 6063
>> 
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>> 
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>> 
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>> 
>> 
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca


From joramsey at cox.net  Sun Apr  4 13:43:26 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 09:43:26 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <7C4A1CAC-08BE-4FE4-8215-935EE474843B@zufelt.ca>
Message-ID: <8DC8F3A0521A488C92C53320E485758C@noneeb869fea9a>

Hello Everett,
That is unfortunately the easy answer, however, seeking qualified volunteer
readers arose a few years ago when I was taking the bar exam and that was
found to be inadequate in defense of allowing me to use my own reader.
Also, since this discovery originates with the State, I am quite sure that
the short answer of having me seek volunteers is not going to work.

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 9:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


I find this thread to be quite interesting.  To expand for a moment, I was
speaking to a woman in Canada last fall who was in a civil action with a
non-governmental body.  The woman was blind and the question arose as to
whether the other party in her case was responsible for providing
submissions and documents in an accessible form.  There was no judicial
treatment o the issue.  However, the accessibility centre at the courthouse
at which she was dealing was able to provide some services to assist her.
This was after suggesting that she obtain a volunteer from a charity to
assist her with reading the documents.


Everett Zufelt
http://zufelt.ca

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt



On 2010-04-04, at 8:22 AM, John Ramsey wrote:

> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original 
> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind 
> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely 
> manner. I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is 
> required or should be required to provide the text documents in an 
> accessible format. I am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
> 
> 
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
> 
> P.O. Box 6063
> 
> Gainesville, FL 32627   
> 
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
> 
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
> 
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email messages 
> may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control.
Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
> 
> 
> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can 
> be sent
> 
> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned 
> in to a
> 
> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is 
> if the
> 
> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by 
> OCR
> software.
> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
> 
> 
>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>> problem.
>> When
>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the
default
>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
>> discover
>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the
form
>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>> Cordially,
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>> 
>> P.O. Box 6063
>> 
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>> 
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>> 
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>> 
>> 
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s
> bcglob
> al.net 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw: 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c
> ox.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw: 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufe
> lt.ca

_______________________________________________
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blindlaw:
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From lists at zufelt.ca  Sun Apr  4 14:10:57 2010
From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 10:10:57 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <8DC8F3A0521A488C92C53320E485758C@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <8DC8F3A0521A488C92C53320E485758C@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <503D0085-5488-4BF8-8100-735F385BBB9A@zufelt.ca>

Good morning,

Just to clarify, I am not suggesting that a volunteer reader is the appropriate response, just that it was the first option suggested to the woman with whom I was speaking.


Everett Zufelt
http://zufelt.ca

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt



On 2010-04-04, at 9:43 AM, John Ramsey wrote:

> Hello Everett,
> That is unfortunately the easy answer, however, seeking qualified volunteer
> readers arose a few years ago when I was taking the bar exam and that was
> found to be inadequate in defense of allowing me to use my own reader.
> Also, since this discovery originates with the State, I am quite sure that
> the short answer of having me seek volunteers is not going to work.
> 
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
> 
> P.O. Box 6063
> 
> Gainesville, FL 32627   
> 
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
> 
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
> 
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 9:15 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
> 
> 
> I find this thread to be quite interesting.  To expand for a moment, I was
> speaking to a woman in Canada last fall who was in a civil action with a
> non-governmental body.  The woman was blind and the question arose as to
> whether the other party in her case was responsible for providing
> submissions and documents in an accessible form.  There was no judicial
> treatment o the issue.  However, the accessibility centre at the courthouse
> at which she was dealing was able to provide some services to assist her.
> This was after suggesting that she obtain a volunteer from a charity to
> assist her with reading the documents.
> 
> 
> Everett Zufelt
> http://zufelt.ca
> 
> Follow me on Twitter
> http://twitter.com/ezufelt
> 
> View my LinkedIn Profile
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt
> 
> 
> 
> On 2010-04-04, at 8:22 AM, John Ramsey wrote:
> 
>> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original 
>> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind 
>> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely 
>> manner. I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is 
>> required or should be required to provide the text documents in an 
>> accessible format. I am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
>> 
>> 
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>> 
>> P.O. Box 6063
>> 
>> Gainesville, FL 32627   
>> 
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>> 
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>> 
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email messages 
>> may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our control.
> Thank you.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>> 
>> 
>> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can 
>> be sent
>> 
>> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned 
>> in to a
>> 
>> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is 
>> if the
>> 
>> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by 
>> OCR
>> software.
>> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
>> 1237 P Street
>> Fresno ca 93721
>> 559-266-9237
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>> 
>> 
>>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>>> problem.
>>> When
>>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the
> default
>>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
>>> discover
>>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the
> form
>>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>>> Cordially,
>>> John
>>> 
>>> 
>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>> 
>>> P.O. Box 6063
>>> 
>>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>> 
>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>> 
>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
>>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
>>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
>>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
>>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
>>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
>>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
>>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
>>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
>>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
>>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
>>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>>> control.  Thank you.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40s
>> bcglob
>> al.net 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw: 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c
>> ox.net
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw: 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufe
>> lt.ca
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca


From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 14:12:13 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 10:12:13 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
References: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>

John, I remember once I had jury duty, and I called three weeks ahead of 
time, and told my circuits disability person that I had jury duty. Unknown 
to me, My mother wrote, "I'm totaly blind please excuse on my jury form." It 
was realy imbarising. Now I'm told I'm incompantant to serve as a jurer do 
to the fact my doctor wrote a note stating I am blind. This happened serval 
years ago. What if anything should I have done at the time? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original
> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind
> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely 
> manner.
> I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is required or
> should be required to provide the text documents in an accessible format. 
> I
> am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be 
> sent
>
> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in to 
> a
>
> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if 
> the
>
> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by OCR
> software.
> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>> problem.
>> When
>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the 
>> default
>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>> discover
>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the 
>> form
>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>> Cordially,
>> John
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.
>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey
>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable
>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with
>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you
>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
> al.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From dwilson.lists at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 16:44:02 2010
From: dwilson.lists at gmail.com (Derek Wilson)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 01:44:02 +0900
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>
	<9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <l2v6152341004040944y3b19d70bhdb93eb37eb58528a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi folks,

This might not answer any questions directly, and may not be relevant
to handwritten documents, but hopefully the presentation lives up to
its title, so here it is:
AFB Consulting and Adobe Present Free Podcast: Debunking the Myth of
PDF Inaccessibility
http://bit.ly/c42uGw

Note: Google does not allow users to send messages in HTML, so
you may need to copy and paste the above link into your browser.

Regards,

Derek Wilson
Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
Twitter: culturemate
LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com




On 4/4/10, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
> John, I remember once I had jury duty, and I called three weeks ahead of
> time, and told my circuits disability person that I had jury duty. Unknown
> to me, My mother wrote, "I'm totaly blind please excuse on my jury form." It
> was realy imbarising. Now I'm told I'm incompantant to serve as a jurer do
> to the fact my doctor wrote a note stating I am blind. This happened serval
> years ago. What if anything should I have done at the time? RJ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 8:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
>> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original
>> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind
>> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely
>> manner.
>> I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is required or
>> should be required to provide the text documents in an accessible format.
>> I
>> am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication
>> in
>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
>> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
>> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that
>> email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be
>> sent
>>
>> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in to
>>
>> a
>>
>> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if
>> the
>>
>> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by OCR
>> software.
>> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
>> 1237 P Street
>> Fresno ca 93721
>> 559-266-9237
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>>> problem.
>>> When
>>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the
>>> default
>>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>>> discover
>>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the
>>> form
>>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>>> Cordially,
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>>
>>> P.O. Box 6063
>>>
>>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>>
>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>>
>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>>
>>>
>>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.
>>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey
>>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable
>>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with
>>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you
>>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>>> control.  Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dwilson.lists%40gmail.com
>


From mike.sandi at att.net  Sun Apr  4 17:29:25 2010
From: mike.sandi at att.net (Michael Groat)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 10:29:25 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <4661C33BFC4244589A4D50223A62DA36@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <000901cad39a$c60e4a10$522ade30$@net>
	<4661C33BFC4244589A4D50223A62DA36@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <CAB654DDFBAC4291AC26C153AF3C3261@PUTTPUTT>

Hello Denise,
I obtained a copy of Adobe Acrobat 9, which is the PDF creator version.  It
is fully functional with a screen reader, at least with JAWS.  I purchased
it because of legal issues.  One thing I like about using it for scanning is
that it will identify a graphical element which tells you that it is not
printed text.  

I have tried reprinting a non-readable PDF to a new PDF file.  The new PDF
was not readable either.  So all that I can suggest is to print and rescan
it.  

I think that you will find that scanning with just OCR software that the
graphical elements will not be identified.

I'm sorry that I can not be of more assistance.
Michael



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John Ramsey
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 5:20 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery

Hello Denise,
I truly appreciate your suggestion and am in the process of doing that,
however, in the meantime, my client has already suffered one adverse ruling
based on a handwritten image scanned into a computer with no readily
identifiable title. Also, as I have already mentioned, all of their PDF
files are in accessible whereas most every other PDF image I receive is
accessible. It is definitely in whatever method of scanning that they are
using.
I will keep you posted.
Cordially,
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of denise avant
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:02 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


Hello,
I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office.
However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels, and I
have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or regular adobe.
Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant Attorney Generals are
very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file. But this is done on an
individual basis. I'm not certain there is an overall policy by the offices
itself to do that. Things may be different at the federal level as the
various prosecutors and defense as well as the courts have communicated in
an electronic manner for years. If you have not already done so, perhaps you
should find someone in the public defenders office and other offices to
explain why your assistive technology cannot handle their documents.
Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an attempt
to educate and see if this gets the job done.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Ross Doerr
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery

    Hi John:
I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience in a 
challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse party. The
few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue with the 
State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them (usually the attorney 
general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem for 
me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the 
unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be used 
as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on their 
printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF 
that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader. With all due
respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all 
PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you 
what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that 
assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive 
technology can handle it from there.
Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like, 
because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before. This issue is
fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list 
posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it 
all.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a 
> problem.
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn
er.com


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_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mike.sandi%40att.n
et



From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Sun Apr  4 20:39:04 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:39:04 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
References: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a><9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>
	<l2v6152341004040944y3b19d70bhdb93eb37eb58528a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007201cad436$de0a7430$6601a8c0@server>

Hello Derek,
I went to this link and the program is not available until April 5.  I am 
curious to know who AFB Consulting is and how they differ from AFB.  Are 
they some sort of division of AFB who Adobe has hired to partner up with for 
this presentation?  Thanks in advance for any information on this question.
Best,
Dennis


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Derek Wilson" <dwilson.lists at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hi folks,
>
> This might not answer any questions directly, and may not be relevant
> to handwritten documents, but hopefully the presentation lives up to
> its title, so here it is:
> AFB Consulting and Adobe Present Free Podcast: Debunking the Myth of
> PDF Inaccessibility
> http://bit.ly/c42uGw
>
> Note: Google does not allow users to send messages in HTML, so
> you may need to copy and paste the above link into your browser.
>
> Regards,
>
> Derek Wilson
> Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
> Twitter: culturemate
> LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
> Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com
>
>
>
>
> On 4/4/10, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
>> John, I remember once I had jury duty, and I called three weeks ahead of
>> time, and told my circuits disability person that I had jury duty. 
>> Unknown
>> to me, My mother wrote, "I'm totaly blind please excuse on my jury form." 
>> It
>> was realy imbarising. Now I'm told I'm incompantant to serve as a jurer 
>> do
>> to the fact my doctor wrote a note stating I am blind. This happened 
>> serval
>> years ago. What if anything should I have done at the time? RJ
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 8:22 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>>> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original
>>> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind
>>> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely
>>> manner.
>>> I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is required 
>>> or
>>> should be required to provide the text documents in an accessible 
>>> format.
>>> I
>>> am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
>>>
>>>
>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>>
>>> P.O. Box 6063
>>>
>>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>>
>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>>
>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>>
>>> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
>>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
>>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication
>>> in
>>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated 
>>> printed
>>> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please 
>>> be
>>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
>>> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal 
>>> and/or
>>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the 
>>> Internet,
>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
>>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that
>>> email
>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>>> control.  Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>>
>>>
>>> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be
>>> sent
>>>
>>> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in 
>>> to
>>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if
>>> the
>>>
>>> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by 
>>> OCR
>>> software.
>>> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
>>> 1237 P Street
>>> Fresno ca 93721
>>> 559-266-9237
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>>>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>>>> problem.
>>>> When
>>>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with 
>>>> documents,
>>>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the
>>>> default
>>>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>>>> discover
>>>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the
>>>> form
>>>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>>>> Cordially,
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>>>
>>>> P.O. Box 6063
>>>>
>>>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>>>
>>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>>>
>>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>>>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>>>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>>>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>>>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>>>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>>>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>>>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.
>>>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey
>>>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable
>>>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with
>>>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you
>>>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>>>> control.  Thank you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>>> al.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dwilson.lists%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Apr  4 21:21:55 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 14:21:55 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>
	<9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <730F3565431B43729635CECE52E84729@spike>

In California blind people are not automatically excused from jury duty 
because of blindness. The last time I was called was for a medical 
malpractice wrongful death suit and I was going to be seated as an 
alternate. What got me excused was the concern of the defense attorney that 
my experience as a paralegal working for plaintiff and criminal defense 
attorneys would cause me to have bias in favor of the plaintiff in the case. 
This is what I suspected would happen when I was questioned. The blindness 
issue was not a factor.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> John, I remember once I had jury duty, and I called three weeks ahead of 
> time, and told my circuits disability person that I had jury duty. Unknown 
> to me, My mother wrote, "I'm totaly blind please excuse on my jury form." 
> It was realy imbarising. Now I'm told I'm incompantant to serve as a jurer 
> do to the fact my doctor wrote a note stating I am blind. This happened 
> serval years ago. What if anything should I have done at the time? RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 8:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
>> That is one of the problems when they scan an image of the original
>> handwritten document and do not title the image in a way that a blind
>> practitioner is going to have knowledge of that document in a timely 
>> manner.
>> I think that the overall issue is whether or not the State is required or
>> should be required to provide the text documents in an accessible format. 
>> I
>> am sure the ultimate answer is yes.
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
>> in
>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated 
>> printed
>> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
>> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal 
>> and/or
>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
>> email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:10 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>> If you have access to Kurzweil or Open Book software those files can be 
>> sent
>>
>> through those programs and reade. Most likely the files were scanned in 
>> to a
>>
>> PDF document and they are images. The only problem that will occur is if 
>> the
>>
>> documents contain hand-written pages as they will not be recognized by 
>> OCR
>> software.
>> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
>> 1237 P Street
>> Fresno ca 93721
>> 559-266-9237
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:34 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>>> problem.
>>> When
>>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the 
>>> default
>>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>>> discover
>>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the 
>>> form
>>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>>> Cordially,
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>>
>>> P.O. Box 6063
>>>
>>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>>
>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>>
>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>>
>>>
>>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.
>>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey
>>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable
>>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with
>>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you
>>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>>> control.  Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
>> al.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From b75205 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 23:18:33 2010
From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:18:33 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <007201cad436$de0a7430$6601a8c0@server>
References: <D06E789905654F348E74DC413905C71E@noneeb869fea9a>
	<9F6A7319A7B246A5A188C3227B1F9BD9@hometwxakonvzn>
	<l2v6152341004040944y3b19d70bhdb93eb37eb58528a@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201cad436$de0a7430$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <l2nfe5b78281004041618odc73a20di2f74a57364b5acfa@mail.gmail.com>

AFB tech is the technology division of the American Foundation for the
Blind.  Sort of like the Jernigan Institute for the National Federation of
the Blind.  They do a lot of testing of consumer products.  It is the same
people as the AFB, its just their technology division.

James Pepper

From goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr  5 01:19:53 2010
From: goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net (Sarah Clark)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:19:53 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
References: <4661C33BFC4244589A4D50223A62DA36@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <015501cad45e$18a3e910$6701a8c0@computer2>

Hi John,
Your client has suffered as a result of a mistake due to your blindness? 
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but I would conclude that you are not qualified to 
be a lawyer, representing clients, until you figure out a solution to get 
this problem resolved.  Blindness is not an excuse for malpractice.  It 
seems to me that you would have an obligation to make sure you have some way 
of reading documents, no matter the form.  If that requires a human reader, 
then that is your obligation.
You can't automatically expect that everything will be handed to you in an 
accessible form, particularly in discovery where it is not unheard of for 
the opposing side to attempt to hide documents even from a sighted attorney. 
You must be able to read everything, no matter its form.  Personally, I 
believe the best way of accomplishing this is with a reader, because, though 
you can try to "force" the other side to have to provide things in 
accessible form, what if they don't?  The responsibility for the well being 
of your client is still ultimately yours.

Sarah





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello Denise,
> I truly appreciate your suggestion and am in the process of doing that,
> however, in the meantime, my client has already suffered one adverse 
> ruling
> based on a handwritten image scanned into a computer with no readily
> identifiable title. Also, as I have already mentioned, all of their PDF
> files are in accessible whereas most every other PDF image I receive is
> accessible. It is definitely in whatever method of scanning that they are
> using.
> I will keep you posted.
> Cordially,
> John
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of denise avant
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:02 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
> Hello,
> I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office.
> However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels, and I
> have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or regular adobe.
> Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant Attorney Generals 
> are
> very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file. But this is done on an
> individual basis. I'm not certain there is an overall policy by the 
> offices
> itself to do that. Things may be different at the federal level as the
> various prosecutors and defense as well as the courts have communicated in
> an electronic manner for years. If you have not already done so, perhaps 
> you
> should find someone in the public defenders office and other offices to
> explain why your assistive technology cannot handle their documents.
> Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an 
> attempt
> to educate and see if this gets the job done.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Ross Doerr
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>    Hi John:
> I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience in a
> challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse party. 
> The
> few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue with the
> State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them (usually the 
> attorney
> general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem for
> me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the
> unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be used
> as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
> What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on their
> printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF
> that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader. With all 
> due
> respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all
> PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you
> what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that
> assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive
> technology can handle it from there.
> Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like,
> because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before. This issue is
> fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list
> posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it
> all.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>> problem.
>> When
>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the 
>> default
>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>> discover
>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the 
>> form
>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>> Cordially,
>> John
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.
>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey
>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable
>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with
>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you
>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn
> er.com
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2788 - Release Date: 04/03/10
> 18:32:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
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>
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> signature
> database 4997 (20100403) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
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>
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> signature
> database 4997 (20100403) __________
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> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
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>
>
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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> blindlaw:
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From joramsey at cox.net  Mon Apr  5 09:12:56 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 05:12:56 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <015501cad45e$18a3e910$6701a8c0@computer2>
Message-ID: <F9E195FA684A48B1BC006775D658CA6A@noneeb869fea9a>

Actually Sarah,
This absolutely does not fall under malpractice in Florida and me not being
qualified to practice? I am not going to dignify that with a response.

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Sarah Clark
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 9:20 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


Hi John,
Your client has suffered as a result of a mistake due to your blindness? 
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but I would conclude that you are not qualified to

be a lawyer, representing clients, until you figure out a solution to get 
this problem resolved.  Blindness is not an excuse for malpractice.  It 
seems to me that you would have an obligation to make sure you have some way

of reading documents, no matter the form.  If that requires a human reader, 
then that is your obligation.
You can't automatically expect that everything will be handed to you in an 
accessible form, particularly in discovery where it is not unheard of for 
the opposing side to attempt to hide documents even from a sighted attorney.

You must be able to read everything, no matter its form.  Personally, I 
believe the best way of accomplishing this is with a reader, because, though

you can try to "force" the other side to have to provide things in 
accessible form, what if they don't?  The responsibility for the well being 
of your client is still ultimately yours.

Sarah





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello Denise,
> I truly appreciate your suggestion and am in the process of doing 
> that, however, in the meantime, my client has already suffered one 
> adverse ruling based on a handwritten image scanned into a computer 
> with no readily identifiable title. Also, as I have already mentioned, 
> all of their PDF files are in accessible whereas most every other PDF 
> image I receive is accessible. It is definitely in whatever method of 
> scanning that they are using.
> I will keep you posted.
> Cordially,
> John
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of denise avant
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:02 PM
> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
> Hello,
> I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office. 
> However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels, 
> and I have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or 
> regular adobe. Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant 
> Attorney Generals are very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file. 
> But this is done on an individual basis. I'm not certain there is an 
> overall policy by the offices
> itself to do that. Things may be different at the federal level as the
> various prosecutors and defense as well as the courts have communicated in
> an electronic manner for years. If you have not already done so, perhaps 
> you
> should find someone in the public defenders office and other offices to
> explain why your assistive technology cannot handle their documents.
> Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an 
> attempt
> to educate and see if this gets the job done.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of Ross Doerr
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>    Hi John:
> I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience 
> in a challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse 
> party. The few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue 
> with the State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them 
> (usually the attorney
> general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem for
> me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the
> unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be used
> as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
> What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on their
> printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF
> that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader. With all 
> due
> respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all
> PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you
> what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that
> assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive
> technology can handle it from there.
> Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like,
> because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before. This issue is
> fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list
> posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it
> all.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a 
>> problem. When
>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the 
>> default
>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>> discover
>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the 
>> form
>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>> Cordially,
>> John
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil 
>> liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, 
>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are 
>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to 
>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 
>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
>> email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances 
>> beyond our control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40ro
> adrunn
> er.com
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> ----
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2788 - Release Date: 
> 04/03/10 18:32:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw: 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40am
> eritec
> h.net
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
> signature
> database 4997 (20100403) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
> signature
> database 4997 (20100403) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw: 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c
> ox.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgl
obal.net 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net



From joramsey at cox.net  Mon Apr  5 09:48:13 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 05:48:13 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
Message-ID: <23760EA6C90045189DC5AC0C96C2BB6A@noneeb869fea9a>

I thought my dilemma was made clear, however, Mrs. Clark's reply caused me
to clarify. The discovery here in Florida is now "electronic" due to the
legislature mandating that all State Offices go paperless. Also, Florida has
one of the most "open" discovery laws in the nation and we do not as Mrs.
Clark alleges "try to hide things" as a general matter because that would be
grounds for sanctions under our discover rules and also constitute grounds
for appeal.
To return to the original topic, the PDF files are inaccessible to JAWS and
are also not readily identifiable by name. If I am following Mrs. Clark's
thinking, any blind person who has been licensed to practice law is not
qualified to practice law if they do not have a full time reader. This is
just my personal opinion, but wasn't that the same logic that prompted the
congress to enact the ADA in the first place?
Cordially,
John
 

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453


This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 

 

From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Mon Apr  5 14:36:15 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 07:36:15 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
In-Reply-To: <4661C33BFC4244589A4D50223A62DA36@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <000901cad39a$c60e4a10$522ade30$@net>
	<4661C33BFC4244589A4D50223A62DA36@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6D07@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

I am not sure what the precise equipment specifics are in our office,
but all of our paper disclosure is scanned into PDF to be loaded into
our e-files.  Our program for PDF (I think we have Acrobat 9, at least
on the reading end of it) contains its own "reader" program - it sounds
a bit funny, but it reads everything for me, without my having to use
the WinZoom narrator on it.  As I said, I do not know the specifics, but
given that we are a public defender office, it can't be terribly
expensive....

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of John Ramsey
Sent: Sunday, 04 April, 2010 5:20 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery

Hello Denise,
I truly appreciate your suggestion and am in the process of doing that,
however, in the meantime, my client has already suffered one adverse
ruling
based on a handwritten image scanned into a computer with no readily
identifiable title. Also, as I have already mentioned, all of their PDF
files are in accessible whereas most every other PDF image I receive is
accessible. It is definitely in whatever method of scanning that they
are
using.
I will keep you posted.
Cordially,
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication
in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated
printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please
be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal
and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the
Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that
email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
Behalf Of denise avant
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:02 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


Hello,
I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office.
However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels, and
I
have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or regular adobe.
Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant Attorney Generals
are
very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file. But this is done on an
individual basis. I'm not certain there is an overall policy by the
offices
itself to do that. Things may be different at the federal level as the
various prosecutors and defense as well as the courts have communicated
in
an electronic manner for years. If you have not already done so, perhaps
you
should find someone in the public defenders office and other offices to
explain why your assistive technology cannot handle their documents.
Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an
attempt
to educate and see if this gets the job done.


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
Behalf Of Ross Doerr
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery

    Hi John:
I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience in
a 
challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse party.
The
few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue with the 
State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them (usually the
attorney 
general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem
for 
me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and
the 
unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be
used 
as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on
their 
printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real
PDF 
that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader. With all
due
respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all 
PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given
you 
what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere
that 
assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive 
technology can handle it from there.
Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like,

because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before. This issue
is
fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list 
posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of
it 
all.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a 
> problem.
> When
> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with
documents,
> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the
default
> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to 
> discover
> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the
form
> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
> Cordially,
> John
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.

> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond
our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
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From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr  5 22:24:55 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 17:24:55 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
References: <F9E195FA684A48B1BC006775D658CA6A@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <BF817F5DA02A4E0E9C831A6DF0C54CDE@Rob>

John and all.
I totally agree with John and disagree with Sarah. One must gather all the 
relevant facts of a situation before passing judgment on a colleague's 
professional competency. The old adage "but for the grace of the gods go I" 
is a reminder to us all, myself included. Have a blessed day
Rob Tabor
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 4:12 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery


> Actually Sarah,
> This absolutely does not fall under malpractice in Florida and me not 
> being
> qualified to practice? I am not going to dignify that with a response.
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sarah Clark
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 9:20 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
> Hi John,
> Your client has suffered as a result of a mistake due to your blindness?
> I'm sorry to sound harsh, but I would conclude that you are not qualified 
> to
>
> be a lawyer, representing clients, until you figure out a solution to get
> this problem resolved.  Blindness is not an excuse for malpractice.  It
> seems to me that you would have an obligation to make sure you have some 
> way
>
> of reading documents, no matter the form.  If that requires a human 
> reader,
> then that is your obligation.
> You can't automatically expect that everything will be handed to you in an
> accessible form, particularly in discovery where it is not unheard of for
> the opposing side to attempt to hide documents even from a sighted 
> attorney.
>
> You must be able to read everything, no matter its form.  Personally, I
> believe the best way of accomplishing this is with a reader, because, 
> though
>
> you can try to "force" the other side to have to provide things in
> accessible form, what if they don't?  The responsibility for the well 
> being
> of your client is still ultimately yours.
>
> Sarah
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 5:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>
>
>> Hello Denise,
>> I truly appreciate your suggestion and am in the process of doing
>> that, however, in the meantime, my client has already suffered one
>> adverse ruling based on a handwritten image scanned into a computer
>> with no readily identifiable title. Also, as I have already mentioned,
>> all of their PDF files are in accessible whereas most every other PDF
>> image I receive is accessible. It is definitely in whatever method of
>> scanning that they are using.
>> I will keep you posted.
>> Cordially,
>> John
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability.
>> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey
>> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable
>> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with
>> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you
>> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of denise avant
>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:02 PM
>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>> I practice criminal law in Chicago with the Public Defenders office.
>> However, it is done at the appellate and collateral remedies levels,
>> and I have been able to get State Motions and Briefs in word or
>> regular adobe. Most of the Assistant State's Attorneys, and Assistant
>> Attorney Generals are very nice in e-mailing me the electronic file.
>> But this is done on an individual basis. I'm not certain there is an
>> overall policy by the offices
>> itself to do that. Things may be different at the federal level as the
>> various prosecutors and defense as well as the courts have communicated 
>> in
>> an electronic manner for years. If you have not already done so, perhaps
>> you
>> should find someone in the public defenders office and other offices to
>> explain why your assistive technology cannot handle their documents.
>> Essentially, I am suggesting if you haven't done so already, make an
>> attempt
>> to educate and see if this gets the job done.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Ross Doerr
>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 7:27 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>    Hi John:
>> I don't practice criminal law, and do not have any direct experience
>> in a challenge under the ADA to the form of discovery from an adverse
>> party. The few times it has come up for me, usually involving an issue
>> with the State (in my case Maine) a telephone call asking them
>> (usually the attorney
>> general's office) to convert it for me has always resolved the problem 
>> for
>> me. I may get it converted as an RTF, but at least I can read it, and the
>> unreadable PDF document that I have from them initialy, can always be 
>> used
>> as the "referencing document" for court purposes.
>> What usually happens to me is the other side will scan a document on 
>> their
>> printer and push the PDF button, and then think that it is now a real PDF
>> that can be read by JAWS or the adobe acrobat document reader. With all
>> due
>> respect to my sighted colleagues, they haven't a clue that all
>> PDF's are not created equal, and they think that they have just given you
>> what everyone else gets. so, since they have probably read somewhere that
>> assistive technology for blind people can read a PDF, your assistive
>> technology can handle it from there.
>> Like I said, most of them havent a clue what "our world" is really like,
>> because they haven't had to pay any attention to it before. This issue is
>> fascinating for me, so by all means please keep the list
>> posted on what happens with it. I very much want to know what comes of it
>> all.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:34 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] ADA and Discovery
>>
>>
>>> Hello All of the Criminal practitioners on the list,
>>> I practice criminal law here in Florida and have encountered a
>>> problem. When
>>> the State and Public Defender's Offices are providing me with documents,
>>> they are in a PDF that JAWS reads as blank. As you can imagine the
>>> default
>>> titles of the PDF files can basically nullify any real attempts to
>>> discover
>>> what the document is. My question is: has anyone had to challenge the
>>> form
>>> of discovery under the ADA? If so, what was the outcome?
>>> Cordially,
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>>
>>> P.O. Box 6063
>>>
>>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>>
>>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>>
>>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>>
>>>
>>> This communication contains information that may be confidential
>>> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the
>>> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received
>>> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and
>>> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic
>>> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized
>>> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the
>>> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil
>>> liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
>>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
>>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
>>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
>>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that
>>> email messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances
>>> beyond our control.  Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40ro
>> adrunn
>> er.com
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2788 - Release Date:
>> 04/03/10 18:32:00
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>>
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>>
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>> database 4997 (20100403) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
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>> database 4997 (20100403) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
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>>
>>
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>> blindlaw:
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> obal.net
>
>
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From joramsey at cox.net  Tue Apr  6 21:29:40 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 17:29:40 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Law Students
Message-ID: <BC4F1911A4E04941BAAF2157EE5AF2C8@noneeb869fea9a>

This is most likely directed to the law students on the list, however, I am
looking for all of the famous accessibility cases. I need citations and what
they stood for.

Feel free to email me off list.

Thanks,

John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453


This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 

 

From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Thu Apr  8 21:26:08 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:26:08 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] tenBroek Syposium and NABL Meeting
Message-ID: <0544F08A747545BE8B255F39A778BAB7@labarre>

Greetings, today is the last day that you can register for the National Association of  Blind Lawyers Spring meeting and the Jacobus tenBroek Law Syposium.  The information is below.  If you register for the tenBroek Syposium, the NABL meeting is an additional $25.00 and it is $50.00 without tenBroek registration.  Although the deadline is today, I am confident that we can still work you in if you register tomorrow.  
*********
Registration Deadline is April 8, 2010

 

2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium

 

Equality, Difference, and the Right to Live in the World

 

A Cross-Disability Symposium

 

April 15-16, 2010

at the

National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute

Baltimore, Maryland

 

Join many of the nation's leading disability rights advocates and scholars in a cross-disability consideration of the concepts of equality and difference as they relate to people with disabilities in

 

·        ADA/Rehabilitation Act

·        class actions & litigation issues

·        employment, 

·        education, 

·        medical treatment, and 

·        access to technology

 

 

KEYNOTE SPEAKERS:

 

Tom Perez

United States Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights 

 

Tony Coelho, Chairman of the Board

American Association of People with Disabilities

 

With an expanded format to incorporate workshops, the 2010 symposium will provide more time for discussion, collaboration, and networking with lawyers and other advocates who represent clients with a broad range of disabilities.

 

2010 plenary session speakers will be:

 

  a.. Adrienne Asch, Director, Center for Ethics, Yeshiva University 
  b.. Dan Brock, Director, Division of Medical Ethics, Harvard Medical School 
  c.. Richard Brown, Chief Judge, Wisconsin Court of Appeals 
  d.. David Ferleger, Esquire, Law Office of David Ferleger 
  e.. Dan Goldstein, Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP 
  f.. Andrew Imparato, President and CEO, American Association of People with Disabilities 
  g.. Leslie Seid Margolis, Managing Attorney, Education Unit, Maryland Disability Law Center 
  h.. Mark Weber, Vincent dePaul Professor of Law, DePaul University College of Law
 

2010 workshop facilitators will be:

 

  a.. Charles Brown, Director, Volunteer Lawyers for the Blind, American Action Fund for Blind Children and Adults 
  b.. Ira Burnim, Legal Director, Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law 
  c.. Claudia Center, Senior Staff Attorney, The Legal Aid Society Employment Law Center 
  d.. Marc Charmatz, Senior Attorney, National Association of the Deaf 
  e.. Robert Dinerstein, Professor of Law and Director of Clinical Programs,  American University Washington College of Law 
  f.. Eve Hill, Senior Vice President, Burton Blatt Institute 
  g.. Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP 
  h.. Christopher Kuczynski, Esquire, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission 
  i.. Jennifer Mathis, Deputy Legal Director, Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law 
  j.. Ruby Moore, Executive Director, Georgia Advocacy Office, Inc. 
  k.. Ari Ne'eman, President, Autistic Self-Advocacy Network 
  l.. Steven Schwartz, Executive Director, Center for Public Representation
 

Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights Tom Perez and Tony Coelho, Chairman of the Board for the American Association of People with Disabilities, will be the keynote speakers.

 

Documentation for CLE credits will be provided.

 

Registration fee: $175

Student registration fee: $25

 

A limited number of scholarships to cover the registration fee will be available to individuals with demonstrated financial need.

 

To learn more about the symposium and symposium sponsorship opportunities, view the agenda, and register online, please visit http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Law_Symposium.asp.  You may also download from this Web site a registration form to mail or fax.  Hotel information is also available on the symposium Web site.

 

For additional information, contact:

 

Lou Ann Blake, JD

Law Symposium Coordinator

Jacobus tenBroek Library

Jernigan Institute

NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND

200 East Wells Street

at Jernigan Place

Baltimore, Maryland 21230

Telephone: 410-659-9314, ext. 2221

E-mail: lblake at nfb.org

 

 

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND LAWYERS

2010 SPRING MEETING

 

Do you have all your continuing legal education credits?  Do you want to learn about disability law and issues impacting blind lawyers specifically?

 

Join the National Association of Blind Lawyers (NABL) members for an interactive Seminar in connection with the 2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium on Friday April 16th at 2:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.  Ever wondered how to deal with interviewing, hiring, and firing employees including readers?  Want to talk about nuts and bolts like handling exhibits?

 

If you sign up for both the seminar and the tenBroek Symposium which takes place on April 15th and the morning of the 16th, you will receive a discount on the NABL seminar.  Both the Symposium and the Seminar will take place at the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, 200 East Wells St. at Jernigan Place in Baltimore, Maryland.  

 

This Seminar is open to all. Seminar topics will include:

 

1. An update on recent case law affecting blind Americans;

2. Learning Braille and losing vision after becoming a lawyer;

3. Tips and tricks - trial techniques, examination of case files and other documents, and   

    supervision of attorneys and other staff; 

4. Research tools accessible to blind attorneys; and 

5. Interviewing, selecting, and terminating staff. 

 

Admission to the NABL Seminar is $25 for those who have registered for the tenBroek Symposium and $50 for those who have not.  For students, admission is free.  Lunch will be provided.  For those seeking CLE, certificates will be available.  

 

Don't miss this exciting opportunity to learn from and interact with fellow blind and visually impaired attorneys, law students and others.  

 

For further information, or to register, contact Scott LaBarre, President, NABL at slabarre at labarrelaw.com or 303 504-5979.  You should register by April 8th or the cost of the seminar will increase by $15.00.

 

 
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.

From Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV  Fri Apr  9 19:19:03 2010
From: Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV (Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR))
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:19:03 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
Message-ID: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>

Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about a
campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
appeals.

 

/s/

 

 

Bennett Prows, J.D.


From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 19:42:26 2010
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 15:42:26 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
Message-ID: <4bbf8271.0e0bca0a.110d.470b@mx.google.com>

That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
Beth


From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Fri Apr  9 20:16:00 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 16:16:00 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>
References: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <E096AC5FC6C646A9B573D54CA56BC2B4@StevePC>

Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge would be 
great!
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV>
To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about a
> campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
> justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
> appeals.
>
>
>
> /s/
>
>
>
>
>
> Bennett Prows, J.D.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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06:32:00
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From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Fri Apr  9 20:31:28 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:31:28 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>
Message-ID: <028201cad823$a23e5750$6601a8c0@server>

Hello Bennett,
I completely agree but what do you think we might be able to do.  When I was 
in law school at the University of Chicago they were quite proud of Judge 
Tatel, so it is possible that the President is also familiar with him since 
he taught there.  I look forward to hearing your ideas.
Warmest regards,
Dennis Clark

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV>
To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 12:19 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about a
> campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
> justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
> appeals.
>
>
>
> /s/
>
>
>
>
>
> Bennett Prows, J.D.
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net 



From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com  Fri Apr  9 21:33:28 2010
From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:33:28 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <4bbf8271.0e0bca0a.110d.470b@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <709E6C45FDB94ADB9036CCC018784837@valtd>

What is Judge Tatel's judicial philosophy?  Need to know that before I join 
the campaign.

Sincerely,
Olusegun
Denver, Colorado 



From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Fri Apr  9 21:59:26 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:59:26 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>
	<E096AC5FC6C646A9B573D54CA56BC2B4@StevePC>
Message-ID: <E1331CB8FF9E4DD183188151E67A3752@labarre>

Tatel can best be described as a moderate leaning slightly to the left.  He 
is a Clinton appointee to the United States Court of Appeals for the 
District of Columbia Circuit.  He is the only blind judge on the Court of 
Appeals and the only possible nominee who has the requisite experience to 
serve on the Court and who happens to be blind.  Justice Stevens is a 
well-known liberal and an appointment of another liberal by Obama will not 
change the make-up of the Court in this instance.  Because of the reagan and 
two Bush appointments, the Court is still decidedly on the conservative 
side.  So, I most definitely do not agree that the next appointment should 
be a conservative one.  Generally, the terms "conservative" and "liberal" 
as applied to these justices is not really accurate.  They are all judicial 
activists who bring their political philosophy to the cases before them.

Any way to bring this back to matters relevant to this list, I think it 
would be a tremendous victory for our community if a blind justice were 
appointed.  Judge Tatel would represent us well and set an excellent example 
of the competence we are able to achieve.  It'll be interesting to see what 
happens from here.  Here is a short bio on Judge Tatel from the Court's 
website.

Judge Tatel was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals in October 
1994. He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1963 and the 
University of Chicago Law School in 1966. Following law school, he taught 
for a year at the University of Michigan Law School and then went into 
private practice with the firm of Sidley & Austin in Chicago. From 1969 to 
1970, he served as Director of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for Civil 
Rights Under Law, then returned to Sidley & Austin until 1972, when he 
became Director of the National Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under 
Law in Washington, D.C. From 1974 to 1977, he returned to private practice 
as associate and partner with Hogan & Hartson, where he headed the firm's 
Community Services Department. He also served as General Counsel for the 
newly created Legal Services Corporation from 1975 to 1976. In 1977, Judge 
Tatel became the Director of the Office for Civil Rights, U.S. Department of 
Health, Education and Welfare. He returned to Hogan & Hartson in 1979, where 
he headed the firm's education group until his appointment to the D.C. 
Circuit.


Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge would be
> great!
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV>
> To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>> Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about a
>> campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
>> justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
>> appeals.
>>
>>
>>
>> /s/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bennett Prows, J.D.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 04/09/10
> 06:32:00
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 04/09/10 
06:32:00



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Fri Apr  9 22:02:43 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 16:02:43 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <4bbf8271.0e0bca0a.110d.470b@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <40409203B82B4DFCAA96E5D0193186CB@labarre>

Now that I look at Tatel's age, that may be the biggest barrier against him. 
Presidents like to appoint judges who are a bit younger so that the impact 
of the appointment will last longer.  So, if I were a betting man, which I 
am at times, President Obama will likely not appoint Tatel.  He is likely to 
appoint someone in their late 40's to mid 50's.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com  Fri Apr  9 22:39:53 2010
From: rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:39:53 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <40409203B82B4DFCAA96E5D0193186CB@labarre>
References: <4bbf8271.0e0bca0a.110d.470b@mx.google.com>
	<40409203B82B4DFCAA96E5D0193186CB@labarre>
Message-ID: <666BB51359C24FE1B7010985B4743766@RThomas>

Yes; and is he leftist enough or socialist enough to satisfy our President?


Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:03 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Now that I look at Tatel's age, that may be the biggest barrier against him.

Presidents like to appoint judges who are a bit younger so that the impact 
of the appointment will last longer.  So, if I were a betting man, which I 
am at times, President Obama will likely not appoint Tatel.  He is likely to

appoint someone in their late 40's to mid 50's.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged

information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com,

and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments

are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarre
law.com
> 



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
rm.com





From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Fri Apr  9 23:55:39 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 19:55:39 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <E1331CB8FF9E4DD183188151E67A3752@labarre>
References: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>
	<E096AC5FC6C646A9B573D54CA56BC2B4@StevePC>
	<E1331CB8FF9E4DD183188151E67A3752@labarre>
Message-ID: <63ADAF121FFF4D95A9D1477B0FCE9D0A@StevePC>

I can accept that.  I'm a conservative, but wouldn't it be something if we 
had a supreme court justice who is blind!!

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott C. LaBarre" <slabarre at labarrelaw.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


Tatel can best be described as a moderate leaning slightly to the left.  He
is a Clinton appointee to the United States Court of Appeals for the
District of Columbia Circuit.  He is the only blind judge on the Court of
Appeals and the only possible nominee who has the requisite experience to
serve on the Court and who happens to be blind.  Justice Stevens is a
well-known liberal and an appointment of another liberal by Obama will not
change the make-up of the Court in this instance.  Because of the reagan and
two Bush appointments, the Court is still decidedly on the conservative
side.  So, I most definitely do not agree that the next appointment should
be a conservative one.  Generally, the terms "conservative" and "liberal"
as applied to these justices is not really accurate.  They are all judicial
activists who bring their political philosophy to the cases before them.

Any way to bring this back to matters relevant to this list, I think it
would be a tremendous victory for our community if a blind justice were
appointed.  Judge Tatel would represent us well and set an excellent example
of the competence we are able to achieve.  It'll be interesting to see what
happens from here.  Here is a short bio on Judge Tatel from the Court's
website.

Judge Tatel was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals in October
1994. He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1963 and the
University of Chicago Law School in 1966. Following law school, he taught
for a year at the University of Michigan Law School and then went into
private practice with the firm of Sidley & Austin in Chicago. From 1969 to
1970, he served as Director of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for Civil
Rights Under Law, then returned to Sidley & Austin until 1972, when he
became Director of the National Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under
Law in Washington, D.C. From 1974 to 1977, he returned to private practice
as associate and partner with Hogan & Hartson, where he headed the firm's
Community Services Department. He also served as General Counsel for the
newly created Legal Services Corporation from 1975 to 1976. In 1977, Judge
Tatel became the Director of the Office for Civil Rights, U.S. Department of
Health, Education and Welfare. He returned to Hogan & Hartson in 1979, where
he headed the firm's education group until his appointment to the D.C.
Circuit.


Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read,
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com,
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge would be
> great!
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV>
> To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>> Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about a
>> campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
>> justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
>> appeals.
>>
>>
>>
>> /s/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bennett Prows, J.D.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 04/09/10
> 06:32:00
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 04/09/10
06:32:00



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
>



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2801 - Release Date: 04/09/10 
18:32:00
-------------- next part --------------

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2801 - Release Date: 04/09/10 18:32:00

From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Sat Apr 10 00:25:01 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 19:25:01 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <9CDA99CD650C5544ACEADDB63CCD70D1037654F1@AVN3VS032.ees.hhs.gov>
	<E096AC5FC6C646A9B573D54CA56BC2B4@StevePC>
Message-ID: <494C3A676B3B463BB9B7319AA60B0973@Rob>

Steve, I certainly share your hopes and sentiments but I doubt if Tatel has 
a conservative judicial philosophy or espouses strict constructionist views 
of the US Constitution, although I don't know much about this judge. Even if 
he does, I doubt he would be nominated in this climate on Penn Avenue and 
ratified by the Senate as now constituted. Nice thought, though.
Carry on
Rob Tabor
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge would be
> great!
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV>
> To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>> Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about a
>> campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
>> justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
>> appeals.
>>
>>
>>
>> /s/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bennett Prows, J.D.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 04/09/10
> 06:32:00
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 04/09/10 
06:32:00



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglobal.net
> 



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Sat Apr 10 00:53:32 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 20:53:32 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <666BB51359C24FE1B7010985B4743766@RThomas>
Message-ID: <0FBC5289304C48A6846E170A45B52F42@Rufus>

Well, shoot.  If you're looking at it that way, no one will ever be good
enough!  Haha.

Joe Orozco

“Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all.”--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 6:40 PM
To: 'Scott C. LaBarre'; 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Yes; and is he leftist enough or socialist enough to satisfy 
our President?


Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:03 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Now that I look at Tatel's age, that may be the biggest barrier 
against him.

Presidents like to appoint judges who are a bit younger so that 
the impact 
of the appointment will last longer.  So, if I were a betting 
man, which I 
am at times, President Obama will likely not appoint Tatel.  He 
is likely to

appoint someone in their late 40's to mid 50's.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential 
and privileged

information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this 
message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or 
slabarre at labarrelaw.com,

and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and 
any attachments

are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabar
re%40labarre
law.com
> 



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blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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s%40rjtlawfi
rm.com




_______________________________________________
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blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature database 5014 (20100409) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5014 (20100409) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From joramsey at cox.net  Sat Apr 10 01:06:03 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:06:03 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <666BB51359C24FE1B7010985B4743766@RThomas>
Message-ID: <E39CFC5D2277477CB4A8AB2CE655C3D0@noneeb869fea9a>

What makes anyone on this list think that this Judge is on the president's
list?

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 6:40 PM
To: 'Scott C. LaBarre'; 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


Yes; and is he leftist enough or socialist enough to satisfy our President?


Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:03 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Now that I look at Tatel's age, that may be the biggest barrier against him.

Presidents like to appoint judges who are a bit younger so that the impact 
of the appointment will last longer.  So, if I were a betting man, which I 
am at times, President Obama will likely not appoint Tatel.  He is likely to

appoint someone in their late 40's to mid 50's.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged

information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com,

and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments

are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarre
law.com
> 



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From dfrye at nfb.org  Sat Apr 10 02:32:02 2010
From: dfrye at nfb.org (Dan Frye)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 22:32:02 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
Message-ID: <E1O0QUL-0007jk-KP@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Of course, it is interesting to note that several Supreme Court 
Justices who have served have been blind later in their careers.  
I don't think that they truly self-identified as such, except 
possibly for Justice Stone, but several with decided vision 
impairments have served in this capacity.  I offer this just for 
historical interest.

With Kind Regards,

Daniel B.  Frye
Office: (410) 659-9314, Ext 2208
Mobile: (410) 241-7006
Note: This message has been issued remotely from the BrailleNote.

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott C.  LaBarre" <slabarre at labarrelaw.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:59:26 -0600
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Tatel can best be described as a moderate leaning slightly to the 
left.  He
is a Clinton appointee to the United States Court of Appeals for 
the
District of Columbia Circuit.  He is the only blind judge on the 
Court of
Appeals and the only possible nominee who has the requisite 
experience to
serve on the Court and who happens to be blind.  Justice Stevens 
is a
well-known liberal and an appointment of another liberal by Obama 
will not
change the make-up of the Court in this instance.  Because of the 
reagan and
two Bush appointments, the Court is still decidedly on the 
conservative
side.  So, I most definitely do not agree that the next 
appointment should
be a conservative one.  Generally, the terms "conservative" and 
"liberal"
as applied to these justices is not really accurate.  They are 
all judicial
activists who bring their political philosophy to the cases 
before them.

Any way to bring this back to matters relevant to this list, I 
think it
would be a tremendous victory for our community if a blind 
justice were
appointed.  Judge Tatel would represent us well and set an 
excellent example
of the competence we are able to achieve.  It'll be interesting 
to see what
happens from here.  Here is a short bio on Judge Tatel from the 
Court's
website.

Judge Tatel was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals 
in October
1994.  He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1963 and 
the
University of Chicago Law School in 1966.  Following law school, 
he taught
for a year at the University of Michigan Law School and then went 
into
private practice with the firm of Sidley & Austin in Chicago.  
From 1969 to
1970, he served as Director of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for 
Civil
Rights Under Law, then returned to Sidley & Austin until 1972, 
when he
became Director of the National Lawyers' Committee for Civil 
Rights Under
Law in Washington, D.C.  From 1974 to 1977, he returned to 
private practice
as associate and partner with Hogan & Hartson, where he headed 
the firm's
Community Services Department.  He also served as General Counsel 
for the
newly created Legal Services Corporation from 1975 to 1976.  In 
1977, Judge
Tatel became the Director of the Office for Civil Rights, U.S.  
Department of
Health, Education and Welfare.  He returned to Hogan & Hartson in 
1979, where
he headed the firm's education group until his appointment to the 
D.C.
Circuit.


Scott C.  LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste.  918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and 
privileged
information.  If you are not the designated recipient, you may 
not read,
copy, distribute or retain this message.  If you received this 
message in
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or 
slabarre at labarrelaw.com,
and destroy and delete it from your system.  This message and any 
attachments
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C.  §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve P.  Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


 Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge 
would be
 great!
 Steve
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV
 To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
 Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


 Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about 
a
 campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
 justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
 appeals.



 /s/





 Bennett Prows, J.D.

 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.
deeley%40insightbb.com


 
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04/09/10
 06:32:00



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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04/09/10
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 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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 blindlaw:
 
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for blindlaw:
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0nfb.org


From k7uij at panix.com  Sat Apr 10 03:00:00 2010
From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 20:00:00 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <4bbf8271.0e0bca0a.110d.470b@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <65CC29A259D0480998A25CE5D9584173@owner1e06aeb63>

If we're going down *that* road, how about a blind, native-American, 
Buddhist, woman, lesbian, conservative judge? (har)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com 



From souljourner at sbcglobal.net  Sat Apr 10 03:57:23 2010
From: souljourner at sbcglobal.net (Susan Tabor)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:57:23 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <E1O0QUL-0007jk-KP@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1O0QUL-0007jk-KP@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000301cad861$ed75d430$c8617c90$@net>

It would be great to have a blind judge on the U.S. Supreme Court. I will
miss Judge Stevens very much.

Where can I get information about blind Supreme Court justices who have
become blind while either serving on the Supreme Court or at another time in
their lives? Thanks!
Best Regards,
Susan Tabor, M.S.W., M.P.S.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Dan Frye
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:32 PM
To: Scott C. LaBarre; NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Of course, it is interesting to note that several Supreme Court 
Justices who have served have been blind later in their careers.  
I don't think that they truly self-identified as such, except 
possibly for Justice Stone, but several with decided vision 
impairments have served in this capacity.  I offer this just for 
historical interest.

With Kind Regards,

Daniel B.  Frye
Office: (410) 659-9314, Ext 2208
Mobile: (410) 241-7006
Note: This message has been issued remotely from the BrailleNote.

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott C.  LaBarre" <slabarre at labarrelaw.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:59:26 -0600
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Tatel can best be described as a moderate leaning slightly to the 
left.  He
is a Clinton appointee to the United States Court of Appeals for 
the
District of Columbia Circuit.  He is the only blind judge on the 
Court of
Appeals and the only possible nominee who has the requisite 
experience to
serve on the Court and who happens to be blind.  Justice Stevens 
is a
well-known liberal and an appointment of another liberal by Obama 
will not
change the make-up of the Court in this instance.  Because of the 
reagan and
two Bush appointments, the Court is still decidedly on the 
conservative
side.  So, I most definitely do not agree that the next 
appointment should
be a conservative one.  Generally, the terms "conservative" and 
"liberal"
as applied to these justices is not really accurate.  They are 
all judicial
activists who bring their political philosophy to the cases 
before them.

Any way to bring this back to matters relevant to this list, I 
think it
would be a tremendous victory for our community if a blind 
justice were
appointed.  Judge Tatel would represent us well and set an 
excellent example
of the competence we are able to achieve.  It'll be interesting 
to see what
happens from here.  Here is a short bio on Judge Tatel from the 
Court's
website.

Judge Tatel was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals 
in October
1994.  He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1963 and 
the
University of Chicago Law School in 1966.  Following law school, 
he taught
for a year at the University of Michigan Law School and then went 
into
private practice with the firm of Sidley & Austin in Chicago.  
>From 1969 to
1970, he served as Director of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for 
Civil
Rights Under Law, then returned to Sidley & Austin until 1972, 
when he
became Director of the National Lawyers' Committee for Civil 
Rights Under
Law in Washington, D.C.  From 1974 to 1977, he returned to 
private practice
as associate and partner with Hogan & Hartson, where he headed 
the firm's
Community Services Department.  He also served as General Counsel 
for the
newly created Legal Services Corporation from 1975 to 1976.  In 
1977, Judge
Tatel became the Director of the Office for Civil Rights, U.S.  
Department of
Health, Education and Welfare.  He returned to Hogan & Hartson in 
1979, where
he headed the firm's education group until his appointment to the 
D.C.
Circuit.


Scott C.  LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste.  918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and 
privileged
information.  If you are not the designated recipient, you may 
not read,
copy, distribute or retain this message.  If you received this 
message in
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or 
slabarre at labarrelaw.com,
and destroy and delete it from your system.  This message and any 
attachments
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C.  §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve P.  Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


 Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge 
would be
 great!
 Steve
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV
 To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
 Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


 Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about 
a
 campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
 justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
 appeals.



 /s/





 Bennett Prows, J.D.

 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.
deeley%40insightbb.com


 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------



 No virus found in this incoming message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 
04/09/10
 06:32:00



-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------



No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date: 
04/09/10
06:32:00



-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------


 _______________________________________________
 blindlaw mailing list
 blindlaw at nfbnet.org
 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
 blindlaw:
 
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e%40labarrelaw.com




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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
for blindlaw:
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0nfb.org

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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
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lobal.net



From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Sat Apr 10 04:05:35 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:05:35 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <E39CFC5D2277477CB4A8AB2CE655C3D0@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <5881A572C15543258676A3042E51C61F@labarre>

The major reason why Judge Tatel can be considered a candidate is that he 
serves on the DC Circuit Court of Appeals which is regarded by most as the 
second highest court in the land.  Judge Tatel is extremely well respected 
and would represent an historic appointment.  Additionally, I am familiar 
with some of the President's key advisors in this area and know that Judge 
Tatel would be on a list.  However, as I indicated earlier, the major strike 
against Tatel is that he is a bit older than the typical profile for any 
President making such appointments.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


What makes anyone on this list think that this Judge is on the president's
list?

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.







-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 6:40 PM
To: 'Scott C. LaBarre'; 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


Yes; and is he leftist enough or socialist enough to satisfy our President?


Respectfully,



Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com



Orange County Office

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660

T: (949) 752-0101

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:03 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement

Now that I look at Tatel's age, that may be the biggest barrier against him.

Presidents like to appoint judges who are a bit younger so that the impact
of the appointment will last longer.  So, if I were a betting man, which I
am at times, President Obama will likely not appoint Tatel.  He is likely to

appoint someone in their late 40's to mid 50's.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged

information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read,
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com,

and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments

are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarre
law.com
>



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blindlaw:
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From dwilson.lists at gmail.com  Sat Apr 10 04:23:49 2010
From: dwilson.lists at gmail.com (Derek Wilson)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:23:49 +0900
Subject: [blindlaw] Website Accessibility Explained in Plain Language
Message-ID: <p2w6152341004092123ue47992ccla6170f4e0fd4d122@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Have you ever wondered what website accessibility really means or
struggled to explain it to someone?  Here is a clear and simple
explanation in plain language.  Please share this with anyone who
might be interested, and remind them to support website accessibility
in Canada by signing our petition.  Here is a quote from the article:

BLOCK QUOTE BEGINS
"...various state and federal laws require state agencies to have
accessible websites for all visitors to our sites, as well as
accessible software for state employees."
END BLOCK QUOTE

Two links follow:

Link to Article That Explains Website Accessibility in Plain Language:
http://bit.ly/dr3dvQ

Link to Petition That Calls for Accessible Government of Canada Websites:
http://bit.ly/atTPSb

Cheers,
-- 
Derek Wilson
Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
Twitter: culturemate
LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com

-- 
Derek Wilson
Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
Twitter: culturemate
LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com


From cathrynisfinally at verizon.net  Sat Apr 10 05:22:20 2010
From: cathrynisfinally at verizon.net (Cathryn Bonnette)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 01:22:20 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Tax Forms and JAWS
Message-ID: <FFF04DF5D135429A9B89518BE608475A@14bd0130080a469>

            Good morning all,

 

Does anyone have a source for tax forms accessible with JAWS?  I'll also
check for an IRS source on the web, but would rather not "reinvent the
wheel" if others have solved this problem before.

 

Thanks much in advance for any help you may be able to offer.

 

"Sleepless in Washington DC" 


From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Sat Apr 10 12:05:12 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:05:12 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Website Accessibility Explained in Plain Language
In-Reply-To: <p2w6152341004092123ue47992ccla6170f4e0fd4d122@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p2w6152341004092123ue47992ccla6170f4e0fd4d122@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5EB900D6E6024A0E850A3C9871B3464C@StevePC>

That is a great article.
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Derek Wilson" <dwilson.lists at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 12:23 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] Website Accessibility Explained in Plain Language


> Hi all,
>
> Have you ever wondered what website accessibility really means or
> struggled to explain it to someone?  Here is a clear and simple
> explanation in plain language.  Please share this with anyone who
> might be interested, and remind them to support website accessibility
> in Canada by signing our petition.  Here is a quote from the article:
>
> BLOCK QUOTE BEGINS
> "...various state and federal laws require state agencies to have
> accessible websites for all visitors to our sites, as well as
> accessible software for state employees."
> END BLOCK QUOTE
>
> Two links follow:
>
> Link to Article That Explains Website Accessibility in Plain Language:
> http://bit.ly/dr3dvQ
>
> Link to Petition That Calls for Accessible Government of Canada Websites:
> http://bit.ly/atTPSb
>
> Cheers,
> -- 
> Derek Wilson
> Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
> Twitter: culturemate
> LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
> Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com
>
> -- 
> Derek Wilson
> Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
> Twitter: culturemate
> LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
> Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2801 - Release Date: 04/09/10 
18:32:00
-------------- next part --------------

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2801 - Release Date: 04/09/10 18:32:00

From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Sat Apr 10 14:10:50 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:10:50 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Website Accessibility Explained in Plain Language
In-Reply-To: <p2w6152341004092123ue47992ccla6170f4e0fd4d122@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000148289310@mailfront1.g2host.com>

What is BIT.LY?  Are these something like the "tiny" links that are sometimes used?  I'm always a little uneasy following 
a link that has an unfamiliar form.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson


On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:23:49 +0900, Derek Wilson wrote:

>Hi all,

>Have you ever wondered what website accessibility really means or
>struggled to explain it to someone?  Here is a clear and simple
>explanation in plain language.  Please share this with anyone who
>might be interested, and remind them to support website accessibility
>in Canada by signing our petition.  Here is a quote from the article:

>BLOCK QUOTE BEGINS
>"...various state and federal laws require state agencies to have
>accessible websites for all visitors to our sites, as well as
>accessible software for state employees."
>END BLOCK QUOTE

>Two links follow:

>Link to Article That Explains Website Accessibility in Plain Language:
>http://bit.ly/dr3dvQ

>Link to Petition That Calls for Accessible Government of Canada Websites:
>http://bit.ly/atTPSb

>Cheers,
>-- 
>Derek Wilson
>Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
>Twitter: culturemate
>LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
>Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com

>-- 
>Derek Wilson
>Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
>Twitter: culturemate
>LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
>Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com

>_______________________________________________
>blindlaw mailing list
>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com






From tim at timeldermusic.com  Sat Apr 10 19:16:25 2010
From: tim at timeldermusic.com (Tim Elder)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:16:25 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Tax Forms and JAWS
In-Reply-To: <FFF04DF5D135429A9B89518BE608475A@14bd0130080a469>
References: <FFF04DF5D135429A9B89518BE608475A@14bd0130080a469>
Message-ID: <6DBDD8715F1C461CB72676ACD39877F9@youra9279112e3>

Does JAWS work with Turbo Tax?  That might be one way of getting around the
tax forms. 

Regards,

Tim Elder

-----Original Message-----
From: Cathryn Bonnette [mailto:cathrynisfinally at verizon.net] 
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 10:22 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Cc: Gwaltney, Anne
Subject: [blindlaw] Tax Forms and JAWS

            Good morning all,

 

Does anyone have a source for tax forms accessible with JAWS?  I'll also
check for an IRS source on the web, but would rather not "reinvent the
wheel" if others have solved this problem before.

 

Thanks much in advance for any help you may be able to offer.

 

"Sleepless in Washington DC" 





From mikefry79 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 10 20:26:44 2010
From: mikefry79 at gmail.com (Michael Fry)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:26:44 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <000301cad861$ed75d430$c8617c90$@net>
References: <E1O0QUL-0007jk-KP@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<000301cad861$ed75d430$c8617c90$@net>
Message-ID: <j2t8c58e54a1004101326m3c5c679r9cbb4f54b1bd6d86@mail.gmail.com>

Did you guys know that Judge Tatel was elevated to the D.C Circuit to
replace the vacancy left by Ginsberg when Clinton nominated her the the
Supreme Court?  All the pundits on TV and radio that I've heard seem to
think the nominee to replace Stevens will be a woman because that will give
Obama more leeway in nominating a outlier when it comes time to replace
Ginsberg, probably in the next couple years.

How long has Judge Tatel been blind?  I haven't been able to find that out
anywhere.

Mike

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Susan Tabor <souljourner at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> It would be great to have a blind judge on the U.S. Supreme Court. I will
> miss Judge Stevens very much.
>
> Where can I get information about blind Supreme Court justices who have
> become blind while either serving on the Supreme Court or at another time
> in
> their lives? Thanks!
> Best Regards,
> Susan Tabor, M.S.W., M.P.S.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>  Behalf Of Dan Frye
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:32 PM
> To: Scott C. LaBarre; NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
> Of course, it is interesting to note that several Supreme Court
> Justices who have served have been blind later in their careers.
> I don't think that they truly self-identified as such, except
> possibly for Justice Stone, but several with decided vision
> impairments have served in this capacity.  I offer this just for
> historical interest.
>
> With Kind Regards,
>
> Daniel B.  Frye
> Office: (410) 659-9314, Ext 2208
> Mobile: (410) 241-7006
> Note: This message has been issued remotely from the BrailleNote.
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott C.  LaBarre" <slabarre at labarrelaw.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:59:26 -0600
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
> Tatel can best be described as a moderate leaning slightly to the
> left.  He
> is a Clinton appointee to the United States Court of Appeals for
> the
> District of Columbia Circuit.  He is the only blind judge on the
> Court of
> Appeals and the only possible nominee who has the requisite
> experience to
> serve on the Court and who happens to be blind.  Justice Stevens
> is a
> well-known liberal and an appointment of another liberal by Obama
> will not
> change the make-up of the Court in this instance.  Because of the
> reagan and
> two Bush appointments, the Court is still decidedly on the
> conservative
> side.  So, I most definitely do not agree that the next
> appointment should
> be a conservative one.  Generally, the terms "conservative" and
> "liberal"
> as applied to these justices is not really accurate.  They are
> all judicial
> activists who bring their political philosophy to the cases
> before them.
>
> Any way to bring this back to matters relevant to this list, I
> think it
> would be a tremendous victory for our community if a blind
> justice were
> appointed.  Judge Tatel would represent us well and set an
> excellent example
> of the competence we are able to achieve.  It'll be interesting
> to see what
> happens from here.  Here is a short bio on Judge Tatel from the
> Court's
> website.
>
> Judge Tatel was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals
> in October
> 1994.  He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1963 and
> the
> University of Chicago Law School in 1966.  Following law school,
> he taught
> for a year at the University of Michigan Law School and then went
> into
> private practice with the firm of Sidley & Austin in Chicago.
> >From 1969 to
> 1970, he served as Director of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for
> Civil
> Rights Under Law, then returned to Sidley & Austin until 1972,
> when he
> became Director of the National Lawyers' Committee for Civil
> Rights Under
> Law in Washington, D.C.  From 1974 to 1977, he returned to
> private practice
> as associate and partner with Hogan & Hartson, where he headed
> the firm's
> Community Services Department.  He also served as General Counsel
> for the
> newly created Legal Services Corporation from 1975 to 1976.  In
> 1977, Judge
> Tatel became the Director of the Office for Civil Rights, U.S.
> Department of
> Health, Education and Welfare.  He returned to Hogan & Hartson in
> 1979, where
> he headed the firm's education group until his appointment to the
> D.C.
> Circuit.
>
>
> Scott C.  LaBarre, Esq.
>
> LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
> 1660 South Albion Street, Ste.  918
> Denver, Colorado 80222
> 303 504-5979 (voice)
> 303 757-3640 (fax)
> slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
> www.labarrelaw.com (website)
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and
> privileged
> information.  If you are not the designated recipient, you may
> not read,
> copy, distribute or retain this message.  If you received this
> message in
> error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or
> slabarre at labarrelaw.com,
> and destroy and delete it from your system.  This message and any
> attachments
> are covered by the Electronic
> Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C.  §§ 2510-2521.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve P.  Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>  Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge
> would be
>  great!
>  Steve
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV
>  To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
>  Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>  Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about
> a
>  campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
>  justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
>  appeals.
>
>
>
>  /s/
>
>
>
>
>
>  Bennett Prows, J.D.
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  blindlaw mailing list
>  blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>  blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.
> deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
>
>
>  No virus found in this incoming message.
>  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>  Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date:
> 04/09/10
>  06:32:00
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date:
> 04/09/10
> 06:32:00
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  blindlaw mailing list
>  blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>  blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarr
> e%40labarrelaw.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dfrye%4
> 0nfb.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/souljourner%40sbcg
> lobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com
>

From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Sat Apr 10 22:58:49 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 16:58:49 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <E1O0QUL-0007jk-KP@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000301cad861$ed75d430$c8617c90$@net>
	<j2t8c58e54a1004101326m3c5c679r9cbb4f54b1bd6d86@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0F6E9751C7CA4F439B617C5F4D71833D@labarre>

I believe that he has been blind all his life and has lost the majority of 
his vision when an adult.  I believe he has some form of rp.
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Fry" <mikefry79 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


Did you guys know that Judge Tatel was elevated to the D.C Circuit to
replace the vacancy left by Ginsberg when Clinton nominated her the the
Supreme Court?  All the pundits on TV and radio that I've heard seem to
think the nominee to replace Stevens will be a woman because that will give
Obama more leeway in nominating a outlier when it comes time to replace
Ginsberg, probably in the next couple years.

How long has Judge Tatel been blind?  I haven't been able to find that out
anywhere.

Mike

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Susan Tabor 
<souljourner at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> It would be great to have a blind judge on the U.S. Supreme Court. I will
> miss Judge Stevens very much.
>
> Where can I get information about blind Supreme Court justices who have
> become blind while either serving on the Supreme Court or at another time
> in
> their lives? Thanks!
> Best Regards,
> Susan Tabor, M.S.W., M.P.S.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>  Behalf Of Dan Frye
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:32 PM
> To: Scott C. LaBarre; NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
> Of course, it is interesting to note that several Supreme Court
> Justices who have served have been blind later in their careers.
> I don't think that they truly self-identified as such, except
> possibly for Justice Stone, but several with decided vision
> impairments have served in this capacity.  I offer this just for
> historical interest.
>
> With Kind Regards,
>
> Daniel B.  Frye
> Office: (410) 659-9314, Ext 2208
> Mobile: (410) 241-7006
> Note: This message has been issued remotely from the BrailleNote.
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott C.  LaBarre" <slabarre at labarrelaw.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:59:26 -0600
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
> Tatel can best be described as a moderate leaning slightly to the
> left.  He
> is a Clinton appointee to the United States Court of Appeals for
> the
> District of Columbia Circuit.  He is the only blind judge on the
> Court of
> Appeals and the only possible nominee who has the requisite
> experience to
> serve on the Court and who happens to be blind.  Justice Stevens
> is a
> well-known liberal and an appointment of another liberal by Obama
> will not
> change the make-up of the Court in this instance.  Because of the
> reagan and
> two Bush appointments, the Court is still decidedly on the
> conservative
> side.  So, I most definitely do not agree that the next
> appointment should
> be a conservative one.  Generally, the terms "conservative" and
> "liberal"
> as applied to these justices is not really accurate.  They are
> all judicial
> activists who bring their political philosophy to the cases
> before them.
>
> Any way to bring this back to matters relevant to this list, I
> think it
> would be a tremendous victory for our community if a blind
> justice were
> appointed.  Judge Tatel would represent us well and set an
> excellent example
> of the competence we are able to achieve.  It'll be interesting
> to see what
> happens from here.  Here is a short bio on Judge Tatel from the
> Court's
> website.
>
> Judge Tatel was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals
> in October
> 1994.  He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1963 and
> the
> University of Chicago Law School in 1966.  Following law school,
> he taught
> for a year at the University of Michigan Law School and then went
> into
> private practice with the firm of Sidley & Austin in Chicago.
> >From 1969 to
> 1970, he served as Director of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for
> Civil
> Rights Under Law, then returned to Sidley & Austin until 1972,
> when he
> became Director of the National Lawyers' Committee for Civil
> Rights Under
> Law in Washington, D.C.  From 1974 to 1977, he returned to
> private practice
> as associate and partner with Hogan & Hartson, where he headed
> the firm's
> Community Services Department.  He also served as General Counsel
> for the
> newly created Legal Services Corporation from 1975 to 1976.  In
> 1977, Judge
> Tatel became the Director of the Office for Civil Rights, U.S.
> Department of
> Health, Education and Welfare.  He returned to Hogan & Hartson in
> 1979, where
> he headed the firm's education group until his appointment to the
> D.C.
> Circuit.
>
>
> Scott C.  LaBarre, Esq.
>
> LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
> 1660 South Albion Street, Ste.  918
> Denver, Colorado 80222
> 303 504-5979 (voice)
> 303 757-3640 (fax)
> slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
> www.labarrelaw.com (website)
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and
> privileged
> information.  If you are not the designated recipient, you may
> not read,
> copy, distribute or retain this message.  If you received this
> message in
> error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or
> slabarre at labarrelaw.com,
> and destroy and delete it from your system.  This message and any
> attachments
> are covered by the Electronic
> Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C.  §§ 2510-2521.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve P.  Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>  Is he a conservative.  A blind, conservative Supreme Court judge
> would be
>  great!
>  Steve
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)" <Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV
>  To: <Blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:19 PM
>  Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>  Now that Justice Stevens has announced his retirement, how about
> a
>  campaign for David Tatel to become the first blind supreme Court
>  justice?  He's qualified, and a judge on the DC circuit Court of
>  appeals.
>
>
>
>  /s/
>
>
>
>
>
>  Bennett Prows, J.D.
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  blindlaw mailing list
>  blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>  blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.
> deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
>
>
>  No virus found in this incoming message.
>  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>  Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date:
> 04/09/10
>  06:32:00
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2800 - Release Date:
> 04/09/10
> 06:32:00
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  blindlaw mailing list
>  blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
>  blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarr
> e%40labarrelaw.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dfrye%4
> 0nfb.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/souljourner%40sbcg
> lobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mikefry79%40gmail.com
>
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From b75205 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 00:42:22 2010
From: b75205 at gmail.com (James Pepper)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 19:42:22 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
In-Reply-To: <j2t8c58e54a1004101326m3c5c679r9cbb4f54b1bd6d86@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1O0QUL-0007jk-KP@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<000301cad861$ed75d430$c8617c90$@net>
	<j2t8c58e54a1004101326m3c5c679r9cbb4f54b1bd6d86@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x2ufe5b78281004101742kd0feb2dfvb1d1e6c05b690b51@mail.gmail.com>

But if you take him off of the DC court then you would still have that court
being mostly conservatives  so there would be no  net change for the Obama
adminstration.  And you have the civil rights cases passing through that
court, first, before going to the supreme court, so he would probably be
better strategically to be where he is for the blind.  Voting rights cases
go to the DC court first and then the supreme court, things like that.  We
do not need a figurehead, we need concrete people making good decisions
everyday.

James Pepper

From dandrews at visi.com  Sun Apr 11 01:12:56 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 20:12:56 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Website Accessibility Explained in Plain  Language
In-Reply-To: <auto-000148289310@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <p2w6152341004092123ue47992ccla6170f4e0fd4d122@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000148289310@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000148315821@mailfront1.g2host.com>

Yes, it is competition to tinyurl and other url shortening services.

Dave

At 09:10 AM 4/10/2010, you wrote:
>What is BIT.LY?  Are these something like the "tiny" links that are 
>sometimes used?  I'm always a little uneasy following
>a link that has an unfamiliar form.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Steve Jacobson
>
>
>On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:23:49 +0900, Derek Wilson wrote:
>
> >Hi all,
>
> >Have you ever wondered what website accessibility really means or
> >struggled to explain it to someone?  Here is a clear and simple
> >explanation in plain language.  Please share this with anyone who
> >might be interested, and remind them to support website accessibility
> >in Canada by signing our petition.  Here is a quote from the article:
>
> >BLOCK QUOTE BEGINS
> >"...various state and federal laws require state agencies to have
> >accessible websites for all visitors to our sites, as well as
> >accessible software for state employees."
> >END BLOCK QUOTE
>
> >Two links follow:
>
> >Link to Article That Explains Website Accessibility in Plain Language:
> >http://bit.ly/dr3dvQ
>
> >Link to Petition That Calls for Accessible Government of Canada Websites:
> >http://bit.ly/atTPSb
>
> >Cheers,
> >--
> >Derek Wilson
> >Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
> >Twitter: culturemate
> >LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
> >Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com
>
> >--
> >Derek Wilson
> >Email: career.practitioner at gmail.com
> >Twitter: culturemate
> >LinkedIn: http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
> >Blog: https://culturemate.wordpress.com
>
> >_______________________________________________
> >blindlaw mailing list
> >blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for blindlaw:
> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jac 
> obson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>blindlaw mailing list
>blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for blindlaw:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com
>
>
>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>signature database 5016 (20100410) __________
>
>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
>http://www.eset.com



From craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 17:02:12 2010
From: craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com (Craig Spencer)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 13:02:12 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server>
	<auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>

For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address 
managing the paper file for a case?

Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be 
referenced or shown to the opposing side?





From joramsey at cox.net  Sun Apr 11 18:23:06 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:23:06 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
In-Reply-To: <016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
Message-ID: <8DBC0C6B3245466EA7AFF189DC36D6F0@noneeb869fea9a>

Hello Craig,
I asked a question that is related to your issue. I wanted to know how to
handle the fact that I am not being provided "electronic documents" in an
accessible format by the State Attorney as I am required to receive
discovery.
Take care,
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Craig Spencer
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:02 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address 
managing the paper file for a case?

Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be 
referenced or shown to the opposing side?




_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net



From rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com  Sun Apr 11 18:42:02 2010
From: rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 11:42:02 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
In-Reply-To: <016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server>	<auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
Message-ID: <000e01cad9a6$ad695380$083bfa80$@com>

Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your question. 

To start, the law practice should have only one file per case or per client;
otherwise, if each attorney keeps his/her own file, you have chaos. 

The best option is to have all files kept electronically, recognizing that
of course there will be times when paper documents will have to be used.

If, in your question, you are talking about preparing a Response to a
Request for Documents, unless it is a simple request or limited to a small
number of easily recognized documents, you will probably need sighted help,
especially if you have to take a large volume of documents and decide which
documents must be produced and which documents do not need to be produced.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Craig Spencer
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:02 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files

For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address 
managing the paper file for a case?

Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be 
referenced or shown to the opposing side?




_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
rm.com



From rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com  Sun Apr 11 18:45:21 2010
From: rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 11:45:21 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
In-Reply-To: <8DBC0C6B3245466EA7AFF189DC36D6F0@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<8DBC0C6B3245466EA7AFF189DC36D6F0@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <000f01cad9a7$23f783f0$6be68bd0$@com>

File a Motion with your Court for a protective order requiring that
discovery be produced in an accessible format, using the ADA is your legal
justification.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John Ramsey
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 11:23 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files

Hello Craig,
I asked a question that is related to your issue. I wanted to know how to
handle the fact that I am not being provided "electronic documents" in an
accessible format by the State Attorney as I am required to receive
discovery.
Take care,
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Craig Spencer
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:02 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address 
managing the paper file for a case?

Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be 
referenced or shown to the opposing side?




_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
rm.com



From rumpole at roadrunner.com  Sun Apr 11 19:45:37 2010
From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:45:37 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server><auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
Message-ID: <469B1751CE13485CACB4DA9262D9C283@none8a46117901>

Hello Craig:
I'd say your question has two different answers to it. One for the office, 
and one for hearings and negotiations settings.
For my office , I work in an office with 9 other lawyers. I manage my 
documents in a disciplined and structured way out of necessity.
WE have only one secretary to handle all of us.
Of course, in practical terms that means we each do almost everything 
ourselves. So, when it comes to documents and dealing with other lawyers in 
my office, I make sure they all know how I do things.
I also make sure they know that, if they need a document out of one of my 
files, they need to either hand it back to me in person so that I can be the 
one to put it back, or that they can be trusted to return it to the right 
place. Failure to do so is, as you can guess, a tragedy in the making for 
me, and not them. For that reason, I am a very, very critical person when it 
comes to my fellow lawyers getting into one of my paper files.
 As you may guess, the paper file needs to be set up by me and in a way that 
is organized for me. I have only had to snarl at a fellow attorney twice in 
the past 7 years about "moving things around on me".

My case notes and telephone log, evidence notes and exhibits list all go 
onto my external hard drive and is backed up weekly to two other locations, 
one at home and one at work. Is this extra work? You bet.
Is it double coverage? You bet.
Am I covered if one or two machines of mine or the offices die? You bet.
That really isn't as much work as it sounds, I have found that the backups 
take about 15 to twenty minutes a week, so it really isn't so bad once you 
get used to doing it.
I had our office manager, who was wise enough to have all of our server 
information backed up to an off-site location daily, to move my local 
"MyDocuments" folders onto the server directly - so in point of fact, I have 
my stuff protected as much as I possibly can.
 You see, for me, the paper file is important, but my electronic file is 
more important for obvious reasons.
But everything in each of my paper files is referenced in my electronic 
file.
Paper documents and evidence that has come into the office for my files are 
either scanned and then converted to text using K-1000 or some other 
program, or is very strictly referenced in my electronic notes, such as, for 
example those god-awful doctor's and nurses notes that come in that 
handwriting that only a doctor or nurse can decode. (And they say blind 
people have bad handwriting. Sheesh)
  I then make certain that all documents are in one of two forms, depending 
upon what type of situation I am going into. By this I mean, if it is to be 
either a negotiation where I would want to show the other side specific 
documents one at a time, or in a full blown hearing in court where an 
evidence binder is a better idea.
If it is a settlement negotiation, and I want the other side to see only one 
documentt at a time, I make sure that each document is referenced 
individually, with a cover sheet of braille on it. This way the other side 
will see only a braille coversheet - this not only tells me what it is, but 
drives the other side nuts if they are trying to peek at things on my side 
of the table.
Not that a fellow attorney would try to read something on my side of the 
table deliberately, mind you.
IT simply gives me additional control over the documentation and how it can 
be seen, only when and where I wish it. We have all seen how contentious 
some settings can be. So strict control over what your opponent can chance a 
look at is important.
There are two ways that documents can be referenced  electronically, at 
least by me.
I am, as some on this list know, a bit of self-taught computer geek. I don't 
know all that much about programs, but what I do know is important enough to 
warrant direct knowledge by me.
I will, for example, have my exhibit list done up, and then drop my 
electronic exhibits in the same MS word document as the list. I then go in 
and hyperlink each item on the exhibit list to the document. In this way, no 
matter what document adverse counsel or a judge or hearings officer decides 
to look at or make reference to, I simply hit the link, or pull up the 
bookmark list and pop down to it. I happen to use JAWS, and a link list or 
bookmark list is very easy to pull up no matter where you are inside a 
document. That comes in real handy for me, especially in some of my Cases 
where I am advocating for adaptive technology.
IS this extra work? Yes it is.
  Do I bill the client for this? No, I don't.
You only need to do this sort of thing a few times and it is faster and 
easier to do than you think.
In some ways this will put you on a fairly even footing with your sighted 
adverse counsel. Well, as much as a blind attorney can be that is.
What about when I am in court - assuming I have submitted an evidence 
binder. Well, when sitting at counsel table it is easy to use either braille 
or a laptop. I personally prefer the laptop. I have never had a judge tell 
me to leave counsel table to stand at the podium. and place me at a 
disadvantage. Would I carry my laptop up to a podium? Well, yes, I could, 
but never have.
Oh yes, one other thing about using a computer - I am blind enough that I 
cannot see the screen at all. So I will use either a wired earpiece or my 
blue tooth earpiece to hear what is on my screen. Nobody else can hear it, 
so client confidentiality is as safeguarded as much as possible. It really 
is a different way to practice law, but works, does not comprimise anything 
for your client and gets the job done.
Although there was that one time when a new, young and sighted attorney in 
my office came with me to court to help, and spilled an entire pitcher of 
ice water on the paper file, my laptop and me.
Well, if you're going to have a mishap, do it in front of a superior court 
judge and a courtroom full of your colleagues, right?
 That was one time I did stand up and do it all from the podium. If you 
prepare enough, the foregoing type of mishap isn't as bad is it sounds. 
Although, to this day, certain lawyers will ask me before a hearing if I 
would like a drink of water.
There are as many war stories about the "unexpected" during hearings as 
there are lawyers on this list, and I think that some day we should all 
write them down and post them somewhere. People won't believe a lot of them, 
I promise you that. Like the time my spring-loaded umbrella erupted out of 
my briefcase during a hearing at counsel table...

I do some work in court, a lot of administrative hearings and do a lot of 
settlement work, so over the years I have developed what works for me at my 
level of training.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you need to do what will work 
for you, as an attorney doing your type of work.
The way I have noted here about me is only one way, and it happens to work 
for me.
You will most certainly get a spectrum of different ideas from other lawyers 
on this list, and I promise you they will all be good ideas.
You should pick and choose, or modify until you hit on a method that makes 
you comfortable and works for you.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Craig Spencer" <craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:02 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


> For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address
> managing the paper file for a case?
>
> Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
> referenced or shown to the opposing side?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2804 - Release Date: 04/11/10 
06:32:00



From craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 21:04:44 2010
From: craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com (Craig Spencer)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 17:04:44 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server>	<auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com><016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<000e01cad9a6$ad695380$083bfa80$@com>
Message-ID: <01ad01cad9ba$9d9b8540$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>

Thanks.
I suppose that if one or two attorneys are to deal with one file the file in 
most cases would be set-up by the sighted attorney?



I practice primarily in family law and domestic violence restraining orders 
and when I get the case, the file is already put together.



Most of my Court appearances involve traveling to other counties and I 
usually travel to Court with someone from the office.



After reviewing the file with that person I take notes and make reference to 
what is in the paper file.



It may be what the office procedures for a particular law practice require?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


> Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your question.
>
> To start, the law practice should have only one file per case or per 
> client;
> otherwise, if each attorney keeps his/her own file, you have chaos.
>
> The best option is to have all files kept electronically, recognizing that
> of course there will be times when paper documents will have to be used.
>
> If, in your question, you are talking about preparing a Response to a
> Request for Documents, unless it is a simple request or limited to a small
> number of easily recognized documents, you will probably need sighted 
> help,
> especially if you have to take a large volume of documents and decide 
> which
> documents must be produced and which documents do not need to be produced.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Craig Spencer
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:02 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>
> For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address
> managing the paper file for a case?
>
> Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
> referenced or shown to the opposing side?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
> rm.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/craigspencer2.0%40gmail.com 



From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Sun Apr 11 23:34:39 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:34:39 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
In-Reply-To: <01ad01cad9ba$9d9b8540$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT>
	<BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl>
	<00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server>
	<BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl>
	<006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server>
	<auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<000e01cad9a6$ad695380$083bfa80$@com>
	<01ad01cad9ba$9d9b8540$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
Message-ID: <42C1C92E54D44BE6B7AFB671563E1EFF@StevePC>

I'm not an attorney, however, what ever happened to the paperless office 
myth??

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Craig Spencer" <craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com>
To: <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>; "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" 
<blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


> Thanks.
> I suppose that if one or two attorneys are to deal with one file the file 
> in
> most cases would be set-up by the sighted attorney?
>
>
>
> I practice primarily in family law and domestic violence restraining 
> orders
> and when I get the case, the file is already put together.
>
>
>
> Most of my Court appearances involve traveling to other counties and I
> usually travel to Court with someone from the office.
>
>
>
> After reviewing the file with that person I take notes and make reference 
> to
> what is in the paper file.
>
>
>
> It may be what the office procedures for a particular law practice 
> require?
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 2:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>
>
>> Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your question.
>>
>> To start, the law practice should have only one file per case or per
>> client;
>> otherwise, if each attorney keeps his/her own file, you have chaos.
>>
>> The best option is to have all files kept electronically, recognizing 
>> that
>> of course there will be times when paper documents will have to be used.
>>
>> If, in your question, you are talking about preparing a Response to a
>> Request for Documents, unless it is a simple request or limited to a 
>> small
>> number of easily recognized documents, you will probably need sighted
>> help,
>> especially if you have to take a large volume of documents and decide
>> which
>> documents must be produced and which documents do not need to be 
>> produced.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Craig Spencer
>> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:02 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>>
>> For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you 
>> address
>> managing the paper file for a case?
>>
>> Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
>> referenced or shown to the opposing side?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
>> rm.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/craigspencer2.0%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Mon Apr 12 02:19:40 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:19:40 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server>
	<auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<000e01cad9a6$ad695380$083bfa80$@com>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7295262@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

Our office (public defender) fortunately keeps both electronic and paper files on all clients.  The biggest problems that I run into are filing in the paper file (I still have some sight, though not much, leading staff to assume I can do it), nad prosecutors handing me new documents in court for use that minute (again, others relying too much on the fact I have minimal sight).  Instances like that probably should be handled by an assistant / reader...although in the office, the e-files are fantastic.  The fact that everyone has them also is of great help, in case I need to cover a case for a co-worker.

________________________________

From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org on behalf of Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
Sent: Sun 4/11/2010 11:42 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files



Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your question.

To start, the law practice should have only one file per case or per client;
otherwise, if each attorney keeps his/her own file, you have chaos.

The best option is to have all files kept electronically, recognizing that
of course there will be times when paper documents will have to be used.

If, in your question, you are talking about preparing a Response to a
Request for Documents, unless it is a simple request or limited to a small
number of easily recognized documents, you will probably need sighted help,
especially if you have to take a large volume of documents and decide which
documents must be produced and which documents do not need to be produced.



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Craig Spencer
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:02 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files

For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you address
managing the paper file for a case?

Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
referenced or shown to the opposing side?




_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
rm.com


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40pima.gov




From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Mon Apr 12 02:25:55 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:25:55 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT>
	<BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl>
	<00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server>
	<BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl>
	<006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server>
	<auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<000e01cad9a6$ad695380$083bfa80$@com>
	<01ad01cad9ba$9d9b8540$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<42C1C92E54D44BE6B7AFB671563E1EFF@StevePC>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7295263@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

With systems like the one in our office (run remotely for the entire county - a true nightmare) - the "paperless"office is of necessity a myth.  Our system is offline and unusable at least twice a month, if not more often.  Even when I could see more, I routinely kept my laptop with me as well, so that I did not suffer the "downtime"and frustration that so many others encountered.  Safety dictates that the be a hard copy of everything that is still needed, from which the file can be easily re-created, even if not by those of us little to no remaining eyesight.

________________________________

From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org on behalf of Steve P. Deeley
Sent: Sun 4/11/2010 4:34 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files



I'm not an attorney, however, what ever happened to the paperless office
myth??

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Spencer" <craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com>
To: <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>; "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List"
<blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


> Thanks.
> I suppose that if one or two attorneys are to deal with one file the file
> in
> most cases would be set-up by the sighted attorney?
>
>
>
> I practice primarily in family law and domestic violence restraining
> orders
> and when I get the case, the file is already put together.
>
>
>
> Most of my Court appearances involve traveling to other counties and I
> usually travel to Court with someone from the office.
>
>
>
> After reviewing the file with that person I take notes and make reference
> to
> what is in the paper file.
>
>
>
> It may be what the office procedures for a particular law practice
> require?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 2:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>
>
>> Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your question.
>>
>> To start, the law practice should have only one file per case or per
>> client;
>> otherwise, if each attorney keeps his/her own file, you have chaos.
>>
>> The best option is to have all files kept electronically, recognizing
>> that
>> of course there will be times when paper documents will have to be used.
>>
>> If, in your question, you are talking about preparing a Response to a
>> Request for Documents, unless it is a simple request or limited to a
>> small
>> number of easily recognized documents, you will probably need sighted
>> help,
>> especially if you have to take a large volume of documents and decide
>> which
>> documents must be produced and which documents do not need to be
>> produced.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Craig Spencer
>> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:02 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>>
>> For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you
>> address
>> managing the paper file for a case?
>>
>> Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
>> referenced or shown to the opposing side?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
>> rm.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/craigspencer2.0%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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18:32:00



From attorney at alcidonislaw.com  Mon Apr 12 04:49:57 2010
From: attorney at alcidonislaw.com (Rod Alcidonis, Esquire.)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 00:49:57 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
In-Reply-To: <469B1751CE13485CACB4DA9262D9C283@none8a46117901>
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server><auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com><016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<469B1751CE13485CACB4DA9262D9C283@none8a46117901>
Message-ID: <46FB6CF6E3254965AC6E74265F705696@RodelynPC>

Ross:

That was a good one.

A lot of good stuff in there.


Rod Alcidonis, Attorney and Counselor at Law
Alcidonis Law Office, LLC
6907B Rising Sun Ave. 1st floor
Philadelphia, PA 19111
Tel: (215) 305-8085
Fax: (215) 525-0999
Attorney at alcidonislaw.com
Licensed in Pennsylvania and New Jersey

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and/or its attachment(s) is being sent 
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--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ross Doerr" <rumpole at roadrunner.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 3:45 PM
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files

> Hello Craig:
> I'd say your question has two different answers to it. One for the office, 
> and one for hearings and negotiations settings.
> For my office , I work in an office with 9 other lawyers. I manage my 
> documents in a disciplined and structured way out of necessity.
> WE have only one secretary to handle all of us.
> Of course, in practical terms that means we each do almost everything 
> ourselves. So, when it comes to documents and dealing with other lawyers 
> in my office, I make sure they all know how I do things.
> I also make sure they know that, if they need a document out of one of my 
> files, they need to either hand it back to me in person so that I can be 
> the one to put it back, or that they can be trusted to return it to the 
> right place. Failure to do so is, as you can guess, a tragedy in the 
> making for me, and not them. For that reason, I am a very, very critical 
> person when it comes to my fellow lawyers getting into one of my paper 
> files.
> As you may guess, the paper file needs to be set up by me and in a way 
> that is organized for me. I have only had to snarl at a fellow attorney 
> twice in the past 7 years about "moving things around on me".
>
> My case notes and telephone log, evidence notes and exhibits list all go 
> onto my external hard drive and is backed up weekly to two other 
> locations, one at home and one at work. Is this extra work? You bet.
> Is it double coverage? You bet.
> Am I covered if one or two machines of mine or the offices die? You bet.
> That really isn't as much work as it sounds, I have found that the backups 
> take about 15 to twenty minutes a week, so it really isn't so bad once you 
> get used to doing it.
> I had our office manager, who was wise enough to have all of our server 
> information backed up to an off-site location daily, to move my local 
> "MyDocuments" folders onto the server directly - so in point of fact, I 
> have my stuff protected as much as I possibly can.
> You see, for me, the paper file is important, but my electronic file is 
> more important for obvious reasons.
> But everything in each of my paper files is referenced in my electronic 
> file.
> Paper documents and evidence that has come into the office for my files 
> are either scanned and then converted to text using K-1000 or some other 
> program, or is very strictly referenced in my electronic notes, such as, 
> for example those god-awful doctor's and nurses notes that come in that 
> handwriting that only a doctor or nurse can decode. (And they say blind 
> people have bad handwriting. Sheesh)
>  I then make certain that all documents are in one of two forms, depending 
> upon what type of situation I am going into. By this I mean, if it is to 
> be either a negotiation where I would want to show the other side specific 
> documents one at a time, or in a full blown hearing in court where an 
> evidence binder is a better idea.
> If it is a settlement negotiation, and I want the other side to see only 
> one documentt at a time, I make sure that each document is referenced 
> individually, with a cover sheet of braille on it. This way the other side 
> will see only a braille coversheet - this not only tells me what it is, 
> but drives the other side nuts if they are trying to peek at things on my 
> side of the table.
> Not that a fellow attorney would try to read something on my side of the 
> table deliberately, mind you.
> IT simply gives me additional control over the documentation and how it 
> can be seen, only when and where I wish it. We have all seen how 
> contentious some settings can be. So strict control over what your 
> opponent can chance a look at is important.
> There are two ways that documents can be referenced  electronically, at 
> least by me.
> I am, as some on this list know, a bit of self-taught computer geek. I 
> don't know all that much about programs, but what I do know is important 
> enough to warrant direct knowledge by me.
> I will, for example, have my exhibit list done up, and then drop my 
> electronic exhibits in the same MS word document as the list. I then go in 
> and hyperlink each item on the exhibit list to the document. In this way, 
> no matter what document adverse counsel or a judge or hearings officer 
> decides to look at or make reference to, I simply hit the link, or pull up 
> the bookmark list and pop down to it. I happen to use JAWS, and a link 
> list or bookmark list is very easy to pull up no matter where you are 
> inside a document. That comes in real handy for me, especially in some of 
> my Cases where I am advocating for adaptive technology.
> IS this extra work? Yes it is.
>  Do I bill the client for this? No, I don't.
> You only need to do this sort of thing a few times and it is faster and 
> easier to do than you think.
> In some ways this will put you on a fairly even footing with your sighted 
> adverse counsel. Well, as much as a blind attorney can be that is.
> What about when I am in court - assuming I have submitted an evidence 
> binder. Well, when sitting at counsel table it is easy to use either 
> braille or a laptop. I personally prefer the laptop. I have never had a 
> judge tell me to leave counsel table to stand at the podium. and place me 
> at a disadvantage. Would I carry my laptop up to a podium? Well, yes, I 
> could, but never have.
> Oh yes, one other thing about using a computer - I am blind enough that I 
> cannot see the screen at all. So I will use either a wired earpiece or my 
> blue tooth earpiece to hear what is on my screen. Nobody else can hear it, 
> so client confidentiality is as safeguarded as much as possible. It really 
> is a different way to practice law, but works, does not comprimise 
> anything for your client and gets the job done.
> Although there was that one time when a new, young and sighted attorney in 
> my office came with me to court to help, and spilled an entire pitcher of 
> ice water on the paper file, my laptop and me.
> Well, if you're going to have a mishap, do it in front of a superior court 
> judge and a courtroom full of your colleagues, right?
> That was one time I did stand up and do it all from the podium. If you 
> prepare enough, the foregoing type of mishap isn't as bad is it sounds. 
> Although, to this day, certain lawyers will ask me before a hearing if I 
> would like a drink of water.
> There are as many war stories about the "unexpected" during hearings as 
> there are lawyers on this list, and I think that some day we should all 
> write them down and post them somewhere. People won't believe a lot of 
> them, I promise you that. Like the time my spring-loaded umbrella erupted 
> out of my briefcase during a hearing at counsel table...
>
> I do some work in court, a lot of administrative hearings and do a lot of 
> settlement work, so over the years I have developed what works for me at 
> my level of training.
> I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you need to do what will work 
> for you, as an attorney doing your type of work.
> The way I have noted here about me is only one way, and it happens to work 
> for me.
> You will most certainly get a spectrum of different ideas from other 
> lawyers on this list, and I promise you they will all be good ideas.
> You should pick and choose, or modify until you hit on a method that makes 
> you comfortable and works for you.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Craig Spencer" <craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:02 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>
>
>> For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you 
>> address
>> managing the paper file for a case?
>>
>> Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
>> referenced or shown to the opposing side?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2804 - Release Date: 04/11/10 
> 06:32:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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From craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 12 10:24:35 2010
From: craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com (Craig Spencer)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:24:35 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
References: <mailman.27.1254848403.25935.blindlaw_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><A1566C8592CA41518D98AEDA800BA988@PUTTPUTT><BAY139-W11EF6D7FEBE085D4275C3BCFC90@phx.gbl><00a601ca6c28$540955b0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62><005001ca6c89$86e870e0$6601a8c0@server><BAY139-W1694CA3623BA15B0B64364CF9E0@phx.gbl><006801ca6c9a$751b3080$6601a8c0@server><auto-000128110096@mailfront1.g2host.com><016601cad998$bbd18f90$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>
	<469B1751CE13485CACB4DA9262D9C283@none8a46117901>
Message-ID: <02c501cada2a$59a99cd0$6401a8c0@craig031ff0b62>

Thanks Ross for that well thought-out and detailed response.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ross Doerr" <rumpole at roadrunner.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] questions about paper files


> Hello Craig:
> I'd say your question has two different answers to it. One for the office, 
> and one for hearings and negotiations settings.
> For my office , I work in an office with 9 other lawyers. I manage my 
> documents in a disciplined and structured way out of necessity.
> WE have only one secretary to handle all of us.
> Of course, in practical terms that means we each do almost everything 
> ourselves. So, when it comes to documents and dealing with other lawyers 
> in my office, I make sure they all know how I do things.
> I also make sure they know that, if they need a document out of one of my 
> files, they need to either hand it back to me in person so that I can be 
> the one to put it back, or that they can be trusted to return it to the 
> right place. Failure to do so is, as you can guess, a tragedy in the 
> making for me, and not them. For that reason, I am a very, very critical 
> person when it comes to my fellow lawyers getting into one of my paper 
> files.
> As you may guess, the paper file needs to be set up by me and in a way 
> that is organized for me. I have only had to snarl at a fellow attorney 
> twice in the past 7 years about "moving things around on me".
>
> My case notes and telephone log, evidence notes and exhibits list all go 
> onto my external hard drive and is backed up weekly to two other 
> locations, one at home and one at work. Is this extra work? You bet.
> Is it double coverage? You bet.
> Am I covered if one or two machines of mine or the offices die? You bet.
> That really isn't as much work as it sounds, I have found that the backups 
> take about 15 to twenty minutes a week, so it really isn't so bad once you 
> get used to doing it.
> I had our office manager, who was wise enough to have all of our server 
> information backed up to an off-site location daily, to move my local 
> "MyDocuments" folders onto the server directly - so in point of fact, I 
> have my stuff protected as much as I possibly can.
> You see, for me, the paper file is important, but my electronic file is 
> more important for obvious reasons.
> But everything in each of my paper files is referenced in my electronic 
> file.
> Paper documents and evidence that has come into the office for my files 
> are either scanned and then converted to text using K-1000 or some other 
> program, or is very strictly referenced in my electronic notes, such as, 
> for example those god-awful doctor's and nurses notes that come in that 
> handwriting that only a doctor or nurse can decode. (And they say blind 
> people have bad handwriting. Sheesh)
>  I then make certain that all documents are in one of two forms, depending 
> upon what type of situation I am going into. By this I mean, if it is to 
> be either a negotiation where I would want to show the other side specific 
> documents one at a time, or in a full blown hearing in court where an 
> evidence binder is a better idea.
> If it is a settlement negotiation, and I want the other side to see only 
> one documentt at a time, I make sure that each document is referenced 
> individually, with a cover sheet of braille on it. This way the other side 
> will see only a braille coversheet - this not only tells me what it is, 
> but drives the other side nuts if they are trying to peek at things on my 
> side of the table.
> Not that a fellow attorney would try to read something on my side of the 
> table deliberately, mind you.
> IT simply gives me additional control over the documentation and how it 
> can be seen, only when and where I wish it. We have all seen how 
> contentious some settings can be. So strict control over what your 
> opponent can chance a look at is important.
> There are two ways that documents can be referenced  electronically, at 
> least by me.
> I am, as some on this list know, a bit of self-taught computer geek. I 
> don't know all that much about programs, but what I do know is important 
> enough to warrant direct knowledge by me.
> I will, for example, have my exhibit list done up, and then drop my 
> electronic exhibits in the same MS word document as the list. I then go in 
> and hyperlink each item on the exhibit list to the document. In this way, 
> no matter what document adverse counsel or a judge or hearings officer 
> decides to look at or make reference to, I simply hit the link, or pull up 
> the bookmark list and pop down to it. I happen to use JAWS, and a link 
> list or bookmark list is very easy to pull up no matter where you are 
> inside a document. That comes in real handy for me, especially in some of 
> my Cases where I am advocating for adaptive technology.
> IS this extra work? Yes it is.
>  Do I bill the client for this? No, I don't.
> You only need to do this sort of thing a few times and it is faster and 
> easier to do than you think.
> In some ways this will put you on a fairly even footing with your sighted 
> adverse counsel. Well, as much as a blind attorney can be that is.
> What about when I am in court - assuming I have submitted an evidence 
> binder. Well, when sitting at counsel table it is easy to use either 
> braille or a laptop. I personally prefer the laptop. I have never had a 
> judge tell me to leave counsel table to stand at the podium. and place me 
> at a disadvantage. Would I carry my laptop up to a podium? Well, yes, I 
> could, but never have.
> Oh yes, one other thing about using a computer - I am blind enough that I 
> cannot see the screen at all. So I will use either a wired earpiece or my 
> blue tooth earpiece to hear what is on my screen. Nobody else can hear it, 
> so client confidentiality is as safeguarded as much as possible. It really 
> is a different way to practice law, but works, does not comprimise 
> anything for your client and gets the job done.
> Although there was that one time when a new, young and sighted attorney in 
> my office came with me to court to help, and spilled an entire pitcher of 
> ice water on the paper file, my laptop and me.
> Well, if you're going to have a mishap, do it in front of a superior court 
> judge and a courtroom full of your colleagues, right?
> That was one time I did stand up and do it all from the podium. If you 
> prepare enough, the foregoing type of mishap isn't as bad is it sounds. 
> Although, to this day, certain lawyers will ask me before a hearing if I 
> would like a drink of water.
> There are as many war stories about the "unexpected" during hearings as 
> there are lawyers on this list, and I think that some day we should all 
> write them down and post them somewhere. People won't believe a lot of 
> them, I promise you that. Like the time my spring-loaded umbrella erupted 
> out of my briefcase during a hearing at counsel table...
>
> I do some work in court, a lot of administrative hearings and do a lot of 
> settlement work, so over the years I have developed what works for me at 
> my level of training.
> I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you need to do what will work 
> for you, as an attorney doing your type of work.
> The way I have noted here about me is only one way, and it happens to work 
> for me.
> You will most certainly get a spectrum of different ideas from other 
> lawyers on this list, and I promise you they will all be good ideas.
> You should pick and choose, or modify until you hit on a method that makes 
> you comfortable and works for you.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Craig Spencer" <craigspencer2.0 at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:02 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] questions about paper files
>
>
>> For attorneys who work in offices with other attorneys, how do you 
>> address
>> managing the paper file for a case?
>>
>> Do you set-up the file yourself?  What about when a document needs to be
>> referenced or shown to the opposing side?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2804 - Release Date: 04/11/10 
> 06:32:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/craigspencer2.0%40gmail.com 



From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Mon Apr 12 19:42:48 2010
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:42:48 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
 But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED5047F40FDB@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>


Link:
http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/article/no_food_stamps_for_service_dog_but_his_disabled_owner_may_now_have_a_lawyer

Text:
No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer
Posted April 7, 2010
By Martha Neil

A service dog doesn't qualify for food stamps, a Pennsylvania court has ruled, because he isn't human.

But the animal's disabled owner, James Douris, may not have to argue the legal issue on his own much longer. Although he lost a pro se Pennsylvania Commonwealth Court case arguing that the dog's nutritional requirements should be taken into account, as a household member, in determining his owner's food stamp allotment, Douris says his phone has been ringing off the hook since the court's decision yesterday, reports the L.A. Unleashed blog of the Los Angeles Times.

Among those calling are lawyers who want to help him with an appeal, he says. Even the court that ruled against him, upholding an earlier determination by the Department of Public Welfare, apparently would have liked to see a different result:

"This court is sympathetic to [Douris'] argument that his service dog is a necessity for him due to his disability, and that he lacks the funds to properly feed his service dog," states Judge Renee Cohn Jubelirer in the written opinion. "We hope that there is some other state or federal program that might provide for the maintenance and upkeep of [the] dog."


From joramsey at cox.net  Mon Apr 12 20:20:31 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:20:31 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
	But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,
	April 7 2010
In-Reply-To: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED5047F40FDB@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>
Message-ID: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>

So are we to infer that the 9th circuit is now going to rule that dogs
should get food stamps?

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 3:43 PM
To: 'blindlaw at nfbnet.org'
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner
May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010



Link:
http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/article/no_food_stamps_for_service_dog_but_
his_disabled_owner_may_now_have_a_lawyer

Text:
No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer
Posted April 7, 2010 By Martha Neil

A service dog doesn't qualify for food stamps, a Pennsylvania court has
ruled, because he isn't human.

But the animal's disabled owner, James Douris, may not have to argue the
legal issue on his own much longer. Although he lost a pro se Pennsylvania
Commonwealth Court case arguing that the dog's nutritional requirements
should be taken into account, as a household member, in determining his
owner's food stamp allotment, Douris says his phone has been ringing off the
hook since the court's decision yesterday, reports the L.A. Unleashed blog
of the Los Angeles Times.

Among those calling are lawyers who want to help him with an appeal, he
says. Even the court that ruled against him, upholding an earlier
determination by the Department of Public Welfare, apparently would have
liked to see a different result:

"This court is sympathetic to [Douris'] argument that his service dog is a
necessity for him due to his disability, and that he lacks the funds to
properly feed his service dog," states Judge Renee Cohn Jubelirer in the
written opinion. "We hope that there is some other state or federal program
that might provide for the maintenance and upkeep of [the] dog."

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net



From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 12 21:10:18 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:10:18 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] IRS Status of Readers
Message-ID: <2cc701cada84$8e09ddf0$6601a8c0@server>

Hello everyone,
I am curious if my fellow attorneys claim their part time readers as independent contractors or employees?  Are there any IRS regs or rulings which clarify the proper tax treatment?  I appreciate your help and ideas.
Warmest regards,
Dennis

From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 12 22:33:26 2010
From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:33:26 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
	But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,
	April 7 2010
In-Reply-To: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <A69D64E8-EAE0-4C8A-8FC6-245C842A68ED@sbcglobal.net>

if service dogs get food stamps, then are their vet expenses payable  
by Medicare? :)  Can I have his harness repaired and get him groomed  
as part of my clothing alotment? :)

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!



From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Tue Apr 13 00:10:26 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 20:10:26 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
	But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,
	April 7 2010
In-Reply-To: <A69D64E8-EAE0-4C8A-8FC6-245C842A68ED@sbcglobal.net>
References: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>
	<A69D64E8-EAE0-4C8A-8FC6-245C842A68ED@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <721F40417C2546639C50D3DF7A174A6C@StevePC>

How about getting a job or having income prior to getting a service dog??? 
This, if true, is absolutely ridiculous.

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,But His Disabled 
Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010


> if service dogs get food stamps, then are their vet expenses payable
> by Medicare? :)  Can I have his harness repaired and get him groomed
> as part of my clothing alotment? :)
>
> Mark BurningHawk
> Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
> Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
> Namaste!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2807 - Release Date: 04/12/10 
18:32:00
-------------- next part --------------

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2807 - Release Date: 04/12/10 18:32:00

From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Tue Apr 13 11:51:11 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 04:51:11 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
	But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,
	April 7 2010
In-Reply-To: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <5D1F28FC321A48D98D70824F5116101C@spike>

Well it won't be the 9th Circuit since this originated in Pennsylvania.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,But His Disabled 
Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,April 7 2010


> So are we to infer that the 9th circuit is now going to rule that dogs
> should get food stamps?
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 3:43 PM
> To: 'blindlaw at nfbnet.org'
> Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner
> May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010
>
>
>
> Link:
> http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/article/no_food_stamps_for_service_dog_but_
> his_disabled_owner_may_now_have_a_lawyer
>
> Text:
> No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a 
> Lawyer
> Posted April 7, 2010 By Martha Neil
>
> A service dog doesn't qualify for food stamps, a Pennsylvania court has
> ruled, because he isn't human.
>
> But the animal's disabled owner, James Douris, may not have to argue the
> legal issue on his own much longer. Although he lost a pro se Pennsylvania
> Commonwealth Court case arguing that the dog's nutritional requirements
> should be taken into account, as a household member, in determining his
> owner's food stamp allotment, Douris says his phone has been ringing off 
> the
> hook since the court's decision yesterday, reports the L.A. Unleashed blog
> of the Los Angeles Times.
>
> Among those calling are lawyers who want to help him with an appeal, he
> says. Even the court that ruled against him, upholding an earlier
> determination by the Department of Public Welfare, apparently would have
> liked to see a different result:
>
> "This court is sympathetic to [Douris'] argument that his service dog is a
> necessity for him due to his disability, and that he lacks the funds to
> properly feed his service dog," states Judge Renee Cohn Jubelirer in the
> written opinion. "We hope that there is some other state or federal 
> program
> that might provide for the maintenance and upkeep of [the] dog."
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us  Tue Apr 13 13:03:52 2010
From: david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us (Hyde, David W. (ESC))
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:03:52 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
 But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010
In-Reply-To: <A69D64E8-EAE0-4C8A-8FC6-245C842A68ED@sbcglobal.net>
References: <AD7931088D2C4E67A8E65EA8623B4C43@noneeb869fea9a>
	<A69D64E8-EAE0-4C8A-8FC6-245C842A68ED@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC123367BB1D079D@tiger>

Not under Medicare. However, if someone is on SSI, such could be considered work related expenses.  

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark BurningHawk
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 5:33 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010

if service dogs get food stamps, then are their vet expenses payable by Medicare? :)  Can I have his harness repaired and get him groomed as part of my clothing alotment? :)

Mark BurningHawk
Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
Home:  Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
Namaste!


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us


From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Tue Apr 13 20:13:08 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:13:08 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind to Present Third
	Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium
Message-ID: <8B024F71F35140EEB4E1C10E24A33010@labarre>

Greetings, please see the below agenda for the NABL meeting and press release about the Syposium.  
Thanks,
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.
President, National Association of Blind Lawyers
LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)


***************
National Association of Blind Lawyers

 

Spring Seminar, 2010

COMPANION SESSION TO 2010 

TENBROEK LAW SYPOSIUM 

Friday, April 16, 2010

 

National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute 

200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place 

Baltimore, Maryland 21230 

 

1:30:                Registration. 

 

2:00:        Opening: Recent Developments in the Law                              Affecting Blind Americans: 

                Scott C. LaBarre, LaBarre Law Offices; 

                President, National Association of Blind Lawyers;                    Denver, Colorado 

 

2:30:        Teaching an Old Dog New Tricks: 

                A Practicing Attorney Learns and Uses Braille                         After Losing Sight 

                Randal S. Farber, Partner, Jackson Walker,                            L.L.P., Houston Texas 

 

3:00:        Practice Tips for Blind and Visually Impaired Trial                    Attorneys: 

                An Interactive Presentation  

·       Patti Chang: Practicing Attorney for the City of Chicago; Board Member, National Association of      Blind Lawyers; Board Member, National Federation of the Blind; Chicago, Illinois

·       Parnell Diggs, Private Practitioner; Board Member, National Association of Blind Lawyers; Board Member, National Federation of the Blind Myrtle Beach, South Carolina 

 

4:00:        The Latest in Accessible Research Tools for Blind                   and Visually Impaired Attorneys 

                Ronza Othman, Government Specialist, National                     Federation of the Blind; Board Member, National                     Association of Blind Lawyers; Baltimore, Maryland 

 

4:30:        Addressing Issues Related to Blindness in the                         work Place: Hiring, Supervising and Firing                                Readers and other staff; interacting with                                        Coworkers

·       Millie Ann Rivera-Rau, Attorney Advisor, Agency Oversight Division Office of Federal Operations Equal Employment Opportunity; Commission; Board Member, National Association of Blind Lawyers; Baltimore, Maryland

·       Ray Wayne, Supervising Attorney, New York City Commission on Human Rights; Secretary, National Association of Blind Lawyers; New York, New York. 

 

5:00:        Adjourn



***************

 



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
 

CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

cdanielsen at nfb.org

 

National Federation of the Blind to Present 
Third Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium
Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights Tom Perez and 
Former Congressman Tony Coelho to be Keynote Speakers
 
Baltimore, Maryland (April 13, 2010): The National Federation of the Blind (NFB) will present the third Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium on April 15-16, 2010, at the NFB Jernigan Institute in Baltimore.  The symposium, entitled "Equality, Difference, and The Right to Live in the World" and named for NFB founder and pioneering legal scholar Dr. Jacobus tenBroek (1911-1968), will gather public officials, legal scholars, and disability rights advocates for a two-day seminar on the state of disability law in the United States and the world, and will discuss how disability rights may be advanced in the future.  Tom Perez, assistant attorney general for the civil rights division of the U.S. Department of Justice, and Tony Coelho, former California congressman and current chairman of the board of the American Association of People with Disabilities, will be the keynote speakers.
"Our first two Jacobus tenBroek symposiums were extraordinary events, and we are looking forward to once again hosting leading players and thinkers in the disability community," said Dr. Marc Maurer, an attorney and President of the National Federation of the Blind.   "Disability law is rapidly changing at the national and international level, and this forum will provide an opportunity for everyone to assess developments and plan strategies in this dynamic and critically-important field."

 

Other presenters at the 2010 symposium include the Honorable Richard Brown, chief judge of the Wisconsin Court of Appeals; Mark Weber, Vincent DePaul Professor of Law at DePaul University College of Law; and Dan Brock, director of the division of medical ethics at Harvard Medical School.

 

Dr. Jacobus tenBroek was a constitutional law scholar, a blind professor at Berkeley, and an author of treatises on the Fourteenth Amendment and social welfare.  Dr. tenBroek created the concept that civil rights should apply to disabled Americans, and he published extensively on the application of the law to those with disabilities.  His efforts to advance civil rights for the blind and others with disabilities included drafting the model White Cane Law, which has had a profound influence on the development of civil rights laws for the disabled throughout the United States, and publishing authoritative articles like "The Right to Live in the World: The Disabled in the Law of Torts."

 

The proceedings of the symposium will be published in the Texas Journal on Civil Liberties and Civil Rights.

 

For more information about the National Federation of the Blind, please visit www.nfb.org.  

 

 

###

 

 

 

About the National Federation of the Blind

 

With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States.  The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind.

 

 

 

 

From joramsey at cox.net  Tue Apr 13 20:17:54 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:17:54 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,
	But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,
	April 7 2010
In-Reply-To: <5D1F28FC321A48D98D70824F5116101C@spike>
Message-ID: <1DE4DAE782704654A73995E434D5F8E7@noneeb869fea9a>

Oh, I thought it was a CA case

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 7:51 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,But His Disabled
Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,April 7 2010


Well it won't be the 9th Circuit since this originated in Pennsylvania.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog,But His Disabled 
Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal,April 7 2010


> So are we to infer that the 9th circuit is now going to rule that dogs 
> should get food stamps?
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential 
> and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the 
> individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received 
> this communication in error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and 
> destroy any associated printed materials and delete the electronic 
> material from any computer. Please be aware that any unauthorized 
> disclosure, use or publication of this communication or the 
> information it contains may result in criminal and/or civil liability. 
> Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet, John Ramsey 
> cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are uncomfortable 
> with such risks, you may decide not to use email to communicate with 
> John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352) 505-6642 if you 
> decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 3:43 PM
> To: 'blindlaw at nfbnet.org'
> Subject: [blindlaw] No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled 
> Owner May Now Have a Lawyer, ABA Journal, April 7 2010
>
>
>
> Link: 
> http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/article/no_food_stamps_for_service_do
> g_but_
> his_disabled_owner_may_now_have_a_lawyer
>
> Text:
> No Food Stamps for Service Dog, But His Disabled Owner May Now Have a
> Lawyer
> Posted April 7, 2010 By Martha Neil
>
> A service dog doesn't qualify for food stamps, a Pennsylvania court 
> has ruled, because he isn't human.
>
> But the animal's disabled owner, James Douris, may not have to argue 
> the legal issue on his own much longer. Although he lost a pro se 
> Pennsylvania Commonwealth Court case arguing that the dog's 
> nutritional requirements should be taken into account, as a household 
> member, in determining his owner's food stamp allotment, Douris says 
> his phone has been ringing off the hook since the court's decision 
> yesterday, reports the L.A. Unleashed blog of the Los Angeles Times.
>
> Among those calling are lawyers who want to help him with an appeal, 
> he says. Even the court that ruled against him, upholding an earlier 
> determination by the Department of Public Welfare, apparently would 
> have liked to see a different result:
>
> "This court is sympathetic to [Douris'] argument that his service dog 
> is a necessity for him due to his disability, and that he lacks the 
> funds to properly feed his service dog," states Judge Renee Cohn 
> Jubelirer in the written opinion. "We hope that there is some other 
> state or federal program that might provide for the maintenance and 
> upkeep of [the] dog."
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw: 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40c
> ox.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob
al.net 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net



From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Tue Apr 13 23:20:20 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 18:20:20 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
References: <4bbf8271.0e0bca0a.110d.470b@mx.google.com>
	<65CC29A259D0480998A25CE5D9584173@owner1e06aeb63>
Message-ID: <5675F0ECD09B47F4989A3683544BC649@Rob>

Great posting, Mike. As a nation we continue to flert with the dangers of 
demographics and identity politics which has, in some cases, compromised 
judgment in selecting judicial nominees for the right reasons, e.g., 
judicial temprament, legal scholarship, and other hallmarks of 
professionalism. The same danger exist, too, in elective politics and the 
appointment of high level executive officials. David Patterson, who 
succeeded Elliott Spitzer as governor of New York after he had to resign in 
the aftermath of a personal scandal, certainly did not distinguish himself 
as an effective executive manager or leader. There is talk he may not even 
run for a term in his own right. Sorry, but Governor Patterson was not 
exactly the poster boy for successful blind executives. Ass for Judge Tatel, 
he may well do better in that regard, but I hope the process can stay 
focused on the aforementioned necessary attributes.
best regards
Rob Tabor
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement


> If we're going down *that* road, how about a blind, native-American, 
> Buddhist, woman, lesbian, conservative judge? (har)
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 12:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Stevens Retirement
>
>
>> That would be nice.  Better yet, we need a blind woman.
>> Beth
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglobal.net 



From AZNOR99 at aol.com  Tue Apr 13 23:34:44 2010
From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 19:34:44 EDT
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Census Alert
Message-ID: <3f2a.2c1c3903.38f65994@aol.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: Othman, Ronza  [mailto:ROthman at nfb.org] 
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:46 PM
Subject:  Census Alert

Fellow Federationists,



As you know, the 2010  Census is upon us.  You may have received a form in
the mail from the  U.S. Census Bureau in late March.  All Americans are
required to provide  Census data under Title 13, United States Code, 
Sections
143 and 191.   Anyone over 18 years old who refuses or willfully neglects to
complete the  questionnaire or answer questions posed by Census employees 
may
be fined up  to $5,000.  The Census Bureau is required to safeguard
information it  receives and is prohibited from sharing information about
individuals with  anyone, including other governmental agencies.  Any Census
worker who  shares personal information about any individual will be subject
to a fine of  up to $250,000, imprisonment for up to five years, or both.



The  information obtained through the Census may only be used for  
statistical
purposes, including legislative redistricting and the allocation  of nearly
$400 billion in governmental funding to public projects such as  schools,
road and infrastructure construction, hospital and health care  services,
rehabilitation programs, and disaster preparedness projects.   It is crucial
that the nation's blind be counted.



Blind  Americans can complete the Census in a number of ways:



-- By  Phone: Call the Census toll free help line at 1-866-872-6868 and
request a  representative.  A Census worker will complete the Census Short
Form  over the phone between April 12 and 21.  You may be asked for  your
20-digit Census Identification Number, which is located on the bar  code
below your mailing label.  The U.S. Census will likely continue to  receive
telephone submissions after April 21, but fewer representatives will  be
available to take data in this manner.



-- At Home: You may  schedule a home visit by a Census worker by calling
(toll free)  1-866-872-6868.  Census workers will be deployed to conduct 
home
visits  in May and June.  Though the U.S. Census attempts to  send
representatives to every home that failed to mail in a form, it is  unlikely
they will reach every American.  Thus scheduling a visit by  calling the 
Help
Line guarantees a visit to your home.



-- In  Person: Individuals can visit Census Questionnaire Centers in person
for  assistance with completing their forms.  To locate your local  office,
visit http://2010.census.gov/2010census/take10map/bcqac-textview.php  and
enter your zip code.



-- As a Group: chapters and  affiliates can request that a Census 
Partnership
Specialist conduct a Census  workshop and provide survey completion
assistance for a group.   Individuals will be required to bring the Census
form they received in the  mail because it lists their Census Identification
Numbers below the bar code  on the address label.  To find your local Census
Partnership Office,  visit
http://2010.census.gov/2010census/take10map/bcqac-textview.php
<http://2010.census.gov/2010census/take10map/bcqac-textview.php>  .



I urge every federationist to take advantage of one of the  alternate 
methods
for completing the Census as quickly as possible.  As  equal, contributing
members of society, we must be counted.

If you  have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me using  the
information below.

Regards,

Ronza M. Othman,  Esq.

Government Programs Specialist

National Federation of the  Blind

Phone:  (410) 659-9314, extension 2374

Email:  rothman at nfb.org



RMO/wmb


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From JFreeh at nfb.org  Wed Apr 14 09:13:17 2010
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 04:13:17 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] National Federation of the Blind to Present Third
 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium
Message-ID: <auto-000147718814@mailfront2.g2host.com>

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

<mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org




National Federation of the Blind to Present
Third Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium




Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights Tom Perez and
Former Congressman Tony Coelho to be Keynote Speakers







Baltimore, Maryland (April 13, 2010): The 
National Federation of the Blind (NFB) will 
present the third Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law 
Symposium on April 15–16, 2010, at the NFB 
Jernigan Institute in Baltimore.  The symposium, 
entitled “Equality, Difference, and The Right to 
Live in the World” and named for NFB founder and 
pioneering legal scholar Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 
(1911–1968), will gather public officials, legal 
scholars, and disability rights advocates for a 
two-day seminar on the state of disability law in 
the United States and the world, and will discuss 
how disability rights may be advanced in the 
future.  Tom Perez, assistant attorney general 
for the civil rights division of the U.S. 
Department of Justice, and Tony Coelho, former 
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = 
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" 
/>California congressman and current chairman of 
the board of the American Association of People 
with Disabilities, will be the keynote speakers.

“Our first two Jacobus tenBroek symposiums were 
extraordinary events, and we are looking forward 
to once again hosting leading players and 
thinkers in the disability community,” said Dr. 
Marc Maurer, an attorney and President of the 
National Federation of the Blind.   “Disability 
law is rapidly changing at the national and 
international level, and this forum will provide 
an opportunity for everyone to assess 
developments and plan strategies in this dynamic 
and critically-important field.”



Other presenters at the 2010 symposium include 
the Honorable Richard Brown, chief judge of the 
Wisconsin Court of Appeals; Mark Weber, Vincent 
DePaul Professor of Law at DePaul University 
College of Law; and Dan Brock, director of the 
division of medical ethics at Harvard Medical School.



Dr. Jacobus tenBroek was a constitutional law 
scholar, a blind professor at Berkeley, and an 
author of treatises on the Fourteenth Amendment 
and social welfare.  Dr. tenBroek created the 
concept that civil rights should apply to 
disabled Americans, and he published extensively 
on the application of the law to those with 
disabilities.  His efforts to advance civil 
rights for the blind and others with disabilities 
included drafting the model White Cane Law, which 
has had a profound influence on the development 
of civil rights laws for the disabled throughout 
the United States, and publishing authoritative 
articles like “The Right to Live in the World: 
The Disabled in the Law of Torts.”



The proceedings of the symposium will be 
published in the Texas Journal on Civil Liberties and Civil Rights.



For more information about the National 
Federation of the Blind, please visit <http://www.nfb.org/>www.nfb.org.





###







About the National Federation of the Blind



With more than 50,000 members, the National 
Federation of the Blind is the largest and most 
influential membership organization of blind 
people in the United States.  The NFB improves 
blind people’s lives through advocacy, education, 
research, technology, and programs encouraging 
independence and self-confidence.  It is the 
leading force in the blindness field today and 
the voice of the nation's blind.  In January 2004 
the NFB opened the National Federation of the 
Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and 
training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind.


From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Wed Apr 14 23:00:48 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 19:00:48 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw:
Message-ID: <1C928697CEBA4ECE9A6087A249199DD7@StevePC>

    This is what you want, I think.  Please let me know if you can't open the attachment.  
I may be looking at doing our master bath this year as well.  I guess we will be making a priority list.
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: beth nutter 
To: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 6:08 PM


Attached is pricing for a few of the options we discussed today, please call with questions! Beth 261-9892

 

We can get together tomorrow to look at materials if you would like. Thanks Beth

 

 



              Beth Nutter

         Phone: 502-261-9892

              Fax:502-491-7887

             WWW.TRUROCK.COM

 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.107/2564 - Release Date: 12/14/09 07:37:00
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From dwilson.lists at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 07:57:01 2010
From: dwilson.lists at gmail.com (Derek Wilson)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:57:01 +0900
Subject: [blindlaw] ODA status update
Message-ID: <s2s6152341004190057rffb7e035gb7c43bd163c418ad@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

As of April 2010, Ontario is the only Canadian province with an
official disability Act.  The following info and website may be of
interest to people living in Ontario or those interested in the status
and goals of Ontario's provincial disability legislation as they
pertain to accessibility - in this case, website accessibility - for
persons with disabilities.  For more info, see the link below the
quote:

BLOCK QUOTE
Focus Area :  Information and Communications

Impact :  Service

Commitment :  Ongoing

The ministry will ensure that its public-facing website complies with
the Ontario government Online Design Program guidelines as well as
with international accessibility standards to make information easier
to access for people with disabilities.

Planned Action(s) : The ministry completed phase 1 of this project in
June 2009, improving navigation features and enhancing performance for
accessibility.  The ministry will continue with phase 2 of this
project this year and with phases 3 and 4 in future years.  Website
content will continue to be reviewed to ensure it is accessible.

Implementation Timeframe :  Oct 09 – Mar 11
END BLOCK QUOTE

Source:
Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care: 2009-2010 Accessibility Plan
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/publications/aplans/aplan10/aplan10.aspx#3

Regards,
Derek Wilson
-
Follow me on Twitter at:
culturemate
-
View my LinkedIn profile at:
http://jp.linkedin.com/in/culturemate
-
Read my blog at:
http://blindequality.wordpress.com/


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Wed Apr 21 14:44:37 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:44:37 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
Message-ID: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring less expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237

From ROthman at nfb.org  Wed Apr 21 16:35:45 2010
From: ROthman at nfb.org (Othman, Ronza)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:35:45 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B025FD26E@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local>

I tested it and found it largely accessible, though there were a few
shortcomings.  This was part of a project I did for the CLE Seminar put
on by the National Association of Blind Lawyers.  Contact me off-list if
you have other questions on low-cost online legal research alternatives.
Otherwise consider attending the NABL seminar at National Convention.

Ronza


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:45 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
less expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rothman%40nfb.
org


From rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com  Wed Apr 21 17:25:28 2010
From: rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:25:28 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
Message-ID: <D8486F3CD1194E93BC8DB1C7848C7CDE@RThomas>

I haven't used it lately, but when it was first introduced, it was very
accessible.



Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:45 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with screen
readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring less
expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
rm.com





From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Wed Apr 21 17:48:44 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:48:44 -0600
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
Message-ID: <B634D826B93A40779B6D1152DA557336@labarre>

Chuck, I stopped using LoisLaw in 2006 but at that time, it worked perfectly 
well with JAWS.  As for now, I have no idea.
Sorry,
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:44 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility


> Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with 
> screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring 
> less expensive options. Thanks.
> Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Wed Apr 21 18:18:22 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:18:22 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for which
I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is considering
a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
otherwise accessible version? 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
less expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
pima.gov




From dravant at ameritech.net  Wed Apr 21 18:54:56 2010
From: dravant at ameritech.net (denise avant)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:54:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
Message-ID: <544375.41095.qm@web81906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello,
i've used lexis in my job for some years now. lexis does not have a text only version. there is a research attorney, who is employed there, at least he did two years ago. if you're using jfw, the site is accessible, though somewhat cluttered at times. i'm sure it works fine with windoweyes as well.


--- On Wed, 4/21/10, Susan Kelly <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov> wrote:


From: Susan Kelly <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 1:18 PM


Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for which
I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is considering
a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
otherwise accessible version? 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
less expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
pima.gov



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritech.net

From rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com  Wed Apr 21 19:44:07 2010
From: rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:44:07 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <544375.41095.qm@web81906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
	<544375.41095.qm@web81906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1ABA562104FE422DBCED247C175390AF@RThomas>

I have used Lexis. Once you get familiar with way the pages are laid out,
it is very accessible.

 

Respectfully,

 

Russell J. Thomas, Jr.

THOMAS & ASSOCIATES

www.californiaemployersattorneys.com

 

Orange County Office                      

4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101

Newport Beach, California 92660                             

T: (949) 752-0101                             

F: (949) 257-4756

M: (949) 466-7238

 


-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of denise avant
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:55 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Hello,
i've used lexis in my job for some years now. lexis does not have a text
only version. there is a research attorney, who is employed there, at least
he did two years ago. if you're using jfw, the site is accessible, though
somewhat cluttered at times. i'm sure it works fine with windoweyes as well.


--- On Wed, 4/21/10, Susan Kelly <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov> wrote:


From: Susan Kelly <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 1:18 PM


Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for which
I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is considering
a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
otherwise accessible version? 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
less expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
pima.gov



_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritec
h.net
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
rm.com





From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Apr 22 18:56:11 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 11:56:11 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <D8486F3CD1194E93BC8DB1C7848C7CDE@RThomas>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
	<D8486F3CD1194E93BC8DB1C7848C7CDE@RThomas>
Message-ID: <A2129DF6B5374A1A97976FB037865E26@spike>

Thanks, their web site seemed quite accessible when I checked it out. Were 
there any other concerns that you had regarding its features and 
reliability?
Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno, ca 93721
559-266-9237
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Russell J. Thomas, Jr." <rthomas at rjtlawfirm.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility


>I haven't used it lately, but when it was first introduced, it was very
> accessible.
>
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
>
>
> Russell J. Thomas, Jr.
>
> THOMAS & ASSOCIATES
>
> www.californiaemployersattorneys.com
>
>
>
> Orange County Office
>
> 4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101
>
> Newport Beach, California 92660
>
> T: (949) 752-0101
>
> F: (949) 257-4756
>
> M: (949) 466-7238
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:45 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
> Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with 
> screen
> readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring less
> expensive options. Thanks.
> Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi
> rm.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Thu Apr 22 19:38:51 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:38:51 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
	<1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
Message-ID: <78311FA42F424B66B23657FB253F1DD1@spike>

I have used Lexis and found it to be accessible as one of the attorneys that 
I work for uses it. However, due to thelayout and such I find it harder to 
use d than Westlaw. Some of the features in Lexis weren't as accessible.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Susan Kelly" <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility


> Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
> regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for which
> I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is considering
> a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
> otherwise accessible version?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
> Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
> screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
> less expensive options. Thanks.
> Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
> pima.gov
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From cdanielsen8 at aol.com  Thu Apr 22 23:05:17 2010
From: cdanielsen8 at aol.com (Chris Danielsen)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 19:05:17 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
Message-ID: <03CE436C721B4201AD67019BB2093107@Scorpio13>

I used to use it in my law practice and I found it largely accessible. I
haven't been practicing law since 2003, however, so I don't know about the
status of it now.

Chris
 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:45 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with screen
readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring less
expensive options. Thanks.
Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol.
com

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5045 (20100420) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5051 (20100422) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 04:50:04 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:50:04 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
Message-ID: <51F185BF89214D3C833681565B83F5E5@hometwxakonvzn>

Dear list, Am I making a mountian out of a molehill? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie 
To: RJ Sandefur 
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:41 AM
Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services


Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your mother. 

If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm Beaches at this time for training.

 

I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to help you in making your decision about training. 

 

I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because you attached it to your e-mail.

 

In order to assist you with training services, please call our office and ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 866-225-0794.

 

 

Bobbie Howard-Davis

District Administrator

.  


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services


Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy concerning out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center, which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state services:
Out of State Services
DIVISION POLICY 6.14

SUBJECT 
Out of State Services

EFFECTIVE DATE
July 9, 2003

REVISION DATE
February 14, 2008

EXPIRATION DATE
This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.

PURPOSE

To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.

AUTHORITY
34 CFR 361.50(b)

POLICY
The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively deny an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of the cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a service.

Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA PD-01-03:


      POLICY STATEMENT:  The State VR program must provide applicants
and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
procuring services.  To enable an individual to make such decisions,
the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
needed by the individual.  The VR agency has the responsibility to
implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now, I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur

From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 04:52:18 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
Message-ID: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn>

Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your feed back. RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie 
To: RJ Sandefur 
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services


Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your mother. 

If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm Beaches at this time for training.

 

I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to help you in making your decision about training. 

 

I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because you attached it to your e-mail.

 

In order to assist you with training services, please call our office and ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 866-225-0794.

 

 

Bobbie Howard-Davis

District Administrator




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services


Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy concerning out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center, which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state services:
Out of State Services
DIVISION POLICY 6.14

SUBJECT 
Out of State Services

EFFECTIVE DATE
July 9, 2003

REVISION DATE
February 14, 2008

EXPIRATION DATE
This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.

PURPOSE

To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.

AUTHORITY
34 CFR 361.50(b)

POLICY
The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively deny an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of the cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a service.

Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA PD-01-03:


      POLICY STATEMENT:  The State VR program must provide applicants
and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
procuring services.  To enable an individual to make such decisions,
the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
needed by the individual.  The VR agency has the responsibility to
implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now, I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
-------------- next part --------------
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From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Fri Apr 23 14:54:30 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 07:54:30 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <78311FA42F424B66B23657FB253F1DD1@spike>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike>
	<1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
	<78311FA42F424B66B23657FB253F1DD1@spike>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DDB@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

Thanks - I am hoping that our office stays with WestLaw.  Apparently it
has a new program which everyone is loving, though I would stick to the
text-only version...now, if we could only get the State Bar to hurry up
with producing the monthly magazine in a text-only format, or at least
PDF rather than imaging....  (Another battle for another day.)

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Thursday, 22 April, 2010 12:39 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

I have used Lexis and found it to be accessible as one of the attorneys
that 
I work for uses it. However, due to thelayout and such I find it harder
to 
use d than Westlaw. Some of the features in Lexis weren't as accessible.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Susan Kelly" <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility


> Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
> regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for
which
> I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is
considering
> a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
> otherwise accessible version?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
> Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
> screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
> less expensive options. Thanks.
> Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
> pima.gov
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc
global.net 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
pima.gov




From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Fri Apr 23 16:26:48 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:26:48 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DDB@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov><78311FA42F424B66B23657FB253F1DD1@spike>
	<1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DDB@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
Message-ID: <CA334D5C04C6487AAE6A0DF6CFF2D941@spike>

the sad part about it is that your state bar magazine was probably in an 
accessible format before it was imaged on to the web.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Susan Kelly" <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility


> Thanks - I am hoping that our office stays with WestLaw.  Apparently it
> has a new program which everyone is loving, though I would stick to the
> text-only version...now, if we could only get the State Bar to hurry up
> with producing the monthly magazine in a text-only format, or at least
> PDF rather than imaging....  (Another battle for another day.)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Thursday, 22 April, 2010 12:39 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
> I have used Lexis and found it to be accessible as one of the attorneys
> that
> I work for uses it. However, due to thelayout and such I find it harder
> to
> use d than Westlaw. Some of the features in Lexis weren't as accessible.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Susan Kelly" <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
>
>> Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
>> regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for
> which
>> I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is
> considering
>> a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
>> otherwise accessible version?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>>
>> Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
>> screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am exploring
>> less expensive options. Thanks.
>> Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
>> 1237 P Street
>> Fresno ca 93721
>> 559-266-9237
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
>> pima.gov
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc
> global.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
> pima.gov
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov  Fri Apr 23 18:55:21 2010
From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 11:55:21 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
In-Reply-To: <CA334D5C04C6487AAE6A0DF6CFF2D941@spike>
References: <606E0C5A2D2A4861B82FE5BD548B5314@spike><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DCC@EVS02.central.pima.gov><78311FA42F424B66B23657FB253F1DD1@spike>
	<1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DDB@EVS02.central.pima.gov>
	<CA334D5C04C6487AAE6A0DF6CFF2D941@spike>
Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6DE1@EVS02.central.pima.gov>

Probably so, since the articles themselves were likely typed in normal
word processing formats for submission.  The company which does the
production and imaging informed me that there is no PDF version, nor a
text-only site, and acknowledged its inaccessibility.  When I contacted
the State Bar (since this is often the first, only and/or most in-depth
presentation of matters all of is in Arizona are supposed to know), I
was told that there was a PDF version somewhere - not where or how to
access it, though - and that they had never had anyone request an
accessible format before!  In their defense, though, they did promise to
"work on it...."

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Sent: Friday, 23 April, 2010 9:27 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility

the sad part about it is that your state bar magazine was probably in an

accessible format before it was imaged on to the web.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Susan Kelly" <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility


> Thanks - I am hoping that our office stays with WestLaw.  Apparently
it
> has a new program which everyone is loving, though I would stick to
the
> text-only version...now, if we could only get the State Bar to hurry
up
> with producing the monthly magazine in a text-only format, or at least
> PDF rather than imaging....  (Another battle for another day.)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Thursday, 22 April, 2010 12:39 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
> I have used Lexis and found it to be accessible as one of the
attorneys
> that
> I work for uses it. However, due to thelayout and such I find it
harder
> to
> use d than Westlaw. Some of the features in Lexis weren't as
accessible.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Susan Kelly" <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>
>
>> Just to tag along on Chuck's question, does anyone know the same
>> regarding Lexis?  Our office currently has a WestLaw contract, for
> which
>> I use the text-only version.  However, the administration is
> considering
>> a change at the next fiscal year...do they offer a text-only or
>> otherwise accessible version?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010 7:45 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Loislaw accessibility
>>
>> Has anyone had experience regarding the accessibility of Loislaw with
>> screen readers? With the cost of on line legal research I am
exploring
>> less expensive options. Thanks.
>> Chuck Krugman M.S.W., Paralegal
>> 1237 P Street
>> Fresno ca 93721
>> 559-266-9237
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
>> pima.gov
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc
> global.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
> pima.gov
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbc
global.net 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40
pima.gov




From David.B.Andrews at state.mn.us  Sat Apr 24 02:01:37 2010
From: David.B.Andrews at state.mn.us (Andrews,
	David B B (DEED))
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 21:01:37 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] New Accessible Diabetic Devices Available
Message-ID: <auto-000150491298@mailfront1.g2host.com>



From: Wilson, Joanne [mailto:JWilson at nfb.org]
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 1:43 PM
To: Andrews, David B B (DEED)
Subject: New Accessible Diabetic Devices Available

Dear Colleagues,

Five years ago, the NFB asked all the blood 
glucose meter companies to make a talking meter 
for our members.  Prodigy was the only company to 
step up and make a talking meter. At our request, 
they made the first talking Prodigy AutoCode™ 
meter.  They also worked with many NFB Team 
members for over a year and made the first fully 
audible Prodigy Voice™ meter allowing NFB Members 
with diabetes total independence. In 2008, we 
presented the NFB Access + Award to Prodigy for their Prodigy Voice™ meter.

The Count-A-Dose has been used for many years by 
blind diabetics, so they can independently fill 
their insulin syringes. We were told it would no 
longer be available and we asked Prodigy again to 
help us out.  Prodigy bought the patent rights to 
make the Count-A-Dose, and after some slight 
improvements, they released the new Prodigy 
Count-A-Dose® on April 1st, 2010.  The NFB 
Independence Market in Baltimore will be selling the Prodigy Count-A-Dose®

Later this year, Prodigy will also be releasing 
the first fully audible insulin pump, as well as 
a talking pill bottle, a laser lancing device, 
and other new accessible products. Please pass on 
this information on to blind diabetics.

Sincerely,

Joanne Wilson
Executive Director of Affiliate Action
National Federation of the Blind

From timandvickie at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 24 18:02:38 2010
From: timandvickie at hotmail.com (Tim Shaw)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:02:38 +0000
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
 and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>


As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a head ache
 
> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
> 
> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your feed back. RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie 
> To: RJ Sandefur 
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
> 
> 
> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your mother. 
> 
> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm Beaches at this time for training.
> 
> 
> 
> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to help you in making your decision about training. 
> 
> 
> 
> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because you attached it to your e-mail.
> 
> 
> 
> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office and ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 866-225-0794.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bobbie Howard-Davis
> 
> District Administrator
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
> 
> 
> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy concerning out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center, which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state services:
> Out of State Services
> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
> 
> SUBJECT 
> Out of State Services
> 
> EFFECTIVE DATE
> July 9, 2003
> 
> REVISION DATE
> February 14, 2008
> 
> EXPIRATION DATE
> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
> 
> PURPOSE
> 
> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
> 
> AUTHORITY
> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
> 
> POLICY
> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively deny an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of the cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a service.
> 
> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA PD-01-03:
> 
> 
> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now, I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
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From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Sat Apr 24 20:44:24 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 16:44:24 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn>
	<BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC>

That is dishonest!

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


>
> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact 
> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with 
> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For 
> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the 
> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is 
> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not 
> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you 
> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper 
> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives 
> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the 
> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a 
> head ache
>
>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your 
>> feed back. RJ
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>> To: RJ Sandefur
>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>> concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your 
>> mother.
>>
>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can 
>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm 
>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to 
>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>
>>
>>
>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because you 
>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>
>>
>>
>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office and 
>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 
>> 866-225-0794.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>
>> District Administrator
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>> concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for 
>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy concerning 
>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center, 
>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the 
>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due 
>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having 
>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of 
>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be 
>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at 
>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state 
>> services:
>> Out of State Services
>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>
>> SUBJECT
>> Out of State Services
>>
>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>> July 9, 2003
>>
>> REVISION DATE
>> February 14, 2008
>>
>> EXPIRATION DATE
>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>
>> PURPOSE
>>
>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>
>> AUTHORITY
>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>
>> POLICY
>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for 
>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively deny 
>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an 
>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and 
>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the 
>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of the 
>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services 
>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, 
>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a 
>> service.
>>
>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But 
>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA 
>> PD-01-03:
>>
>>
>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this 
>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend 
>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, 
>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've 
>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know 
>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my 
>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make an 
>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a Seminary, 
>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my 
>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd 
>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do. 
>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the 
>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have 
>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal 
> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look 
> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your 
> inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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02:31:00
-------------- next part --------------

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From joramsey at cox.net  Sat Apr 24 21:45:38 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:45:38 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC>
Message-ID: <2EACBFA02CED480DAC762547353CE29A@noneeb869fea9a>

I agree with Steve. This is blatantly dishonest and could actually result in
the client ending up with no services at all.


John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's
policy concerning out of state services


That is dishonest!

Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


>
> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will 
> infact
> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with 
> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For 
> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the 
> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is 
> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not 
> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you 
> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper 
> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives 
> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the 
> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a 
> head ache
>
>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like 
>> your
>> feed back. RJ
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>> To: RJ Sandefur
>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>> concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>> mother.
>>
>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we 
>> can
>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm 
>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice 
>> to
>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>
>>
>>
>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>> you
>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>
>>
>>
>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>> and
>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 
>> 866-225-0794.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>
>> District Administrator
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -----------
>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>> concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions 
>> for
>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy concerning

>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center, 
>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the 
>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due 
>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having 
>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of 
>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be 
>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at 
>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state 
>> services:
>> Out of State Services
>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>
>> SUBJECT
>> Out of State Services
>>
>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>> July 9, 2003
>>
>> REVISION DATE
>> February 14, 2008
>>
>> EXPIRATION DATE
>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>
>> PURPOSE
>>
>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>
>> AUTHORITY
>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>
>> POLICY
>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference 
>> for
>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively deny

>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an 
>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and 
>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the 
>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of the

>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services 
>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, 
>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a 
>> service.
>>
>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 
>> But
>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA 
>> PD-01-03:
>>
>>
>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants and 
>> individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to exercise 
>> informed choice throughout the VR process, including making decisions 
>> about the employment goal, VR services, service providers, settings 
>> for employment and service provision, and methods for procuring 
>> services. To enable an individual to make such decisions, the State 
>> VR agency must provide information, support and assistance needed by 
>> the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to implement 
>> policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop resources that 
>> enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR services to 
>> exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process; these 
>> policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with Federal 
>> statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean, 
>> that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB, 
>> due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, 
>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've 
>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you 
>> know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to 
>> get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order 
>> to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study 
>> with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was 
>> licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, 
>> and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord 
>> has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective 
>> minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive? 
>> Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as 
>> by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look 
> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
> your
> inbox.
>
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in
sightbb.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----



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Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10 
02:31:00



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 21:46:47 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:46:47 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
	<94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC>
Message-ID: <B4088685FCD64AD4B635DB5FEE51EA67@hometwxakonvzn>

What's dishonest? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> That is dishonest!
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
> DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>
>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact
>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is
>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you
>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper
>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives
>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>> head ache
>>
>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's
>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your
>>> feed back. RJ
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>> mother.
>>>
>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can
>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to
>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>> you
>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>> and
>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>
>>> District Administrator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for
>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>> concerning
>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the
>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due
>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>> services:
>>> Out of State Services
>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>
>>> SUBJECT
>>> Out of State Services
>>>
>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>> July 9, 2003
>>>
>>> REVISION DATE
>>> February 14, 2008
>>>
>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>
>>> PURPOSE
>>>
>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>
>>> AUTHORITY
>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>
>>> POLICY
>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for
>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>> deny
>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>> the
>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>> service.
>>>
>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But
>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>> PD-01-03:
>>>
>>>
>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this
>>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend
>>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know
>>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my
>>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>> an
>>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>> Seminary,
>>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my
>>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd
>>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do.
>>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the
>>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have
>>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
>> your
>> inbox.
>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
> 02:31:00
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10 
02:31:00



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
> 



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 21:56:27 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:56:27 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
References: <2EACBFA02CED480DAC762547353CE29A@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <3CB0EE7B3E0F473096074B2FD260C252@hometwxakonvzn>

How or in what way is this being dishonest? Can you please email me off 
list, and tell me what my options are? My email adress is 
joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
Thanks RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


>I agree with Steve. This is blatantly dishonest and could actually result 
>in
> the client ending up with no services at all.
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
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> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
> That is dishonest!
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
> DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>
>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will
>> infact
>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is
>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you
>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper
>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives
>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>> head ache
>>
>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>>> DBS's
>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like
>>> your
>>> feed back. RJ
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>> mother.
>>>
>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we
>>> can
>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice
>>> to
>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because
>>> you
>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office
>>> and
>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>
>>> District Administrator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -----------
>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions
>>> for
>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>> concerning
>
>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the
>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due
>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>> services:
>>> Out of State Services
>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>
>>> SUBJECT
>>> Out of State Services
>>>
>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>> July 9, 2003
>>>
>>> REVISION DATE
>>> February 14, 2008
>>>
>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>
>>> PURPOSE
>>>
>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>
>>> AUTHORITY
>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>
>>> POLICY
>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference
>>> for
>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>> deny
>
>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>> the
>
>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>> service.
>>>
>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008
>>> But
>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>> PD-01-03:
>>>
>>>
>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants and
>>> individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to exercise
>>> informed choice throughout the VR process, including making decisions
>>> about the employment goal, VR services, service providers, settings
>>> for employment and service provision, and methods for procuring
>>> services. To enable an individual to make such decisions, the State
>>> VR agency must provide information, support and assistance needed by
>>> the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to implement
>>> policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop resources that
>>> enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR services to
>>> exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process; these
>>> policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with Federal
>>> statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean,
>>> that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB,
>>> due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you
>>> know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to
>>> get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order
>>> to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study
>>> with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was
>>> licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom,
>>> and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord
>>> has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective
>>> minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive?
>>> Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as
>>> by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from
>> your
>> inbox.
>>
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in
> sightbb.com
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
> 02:31:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net  Sat Apr 24 23:22:17 2010
From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:22:17 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl><94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC>
	<B4088685FCD64AD4B635DB5FEE51EA67@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <2E32A21BCAC44F8AAE44F1D74866FEF0@HP8730notebook>

duh,
what do you think?
falsifying your physical living address!
Bryan Schulz


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> What's dishonest? RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>> That is dishonest!
>>
>> Steve
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>>>
>>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact
>>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That 
>>> is
>>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that 
>>> you
>>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the 
>>> cheaper
>>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that 
>>> lives
>>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>>> head ache
>>>
>>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's
>>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your
>>>> feed back. RJ
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>>> mother.
>>>>
>>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can
>>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to
>>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>>> you
>>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>>> and
>>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>>
>>>> District Administrator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for
>>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>>> concerning
>>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find 
>>>> the
>>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, 
>>>> due
>>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>>> services:
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>>
>>>> SUBJECT
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>>
>>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>> July 9, 2003
>>>>
>>>> REVISION DATE
>>>> February 14, 2008
>>>>
>>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>>
>>>> PURPOSE
>>>>
>>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>>
>>>> AUTHORITY
>>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>>
>>>> POLICY
>>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for
>>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>>> deny
>>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>>> the
>>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>>> service.
>>>>
>>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But
>>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>>> PD-01-03:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this
>>>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend
>>>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know
>>>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my
>>>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>>> an
>>>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>>> Seminary,
>>>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my
>>>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd
>>>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do.
>>>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have 
>>>> the
>>>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I 
>>>> have
>>>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
>>> your
>>> inbox.
>>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
>> 02:31:00
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10 
> 02:31:00
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net 



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 23:53:43 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 19:53:43 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl><94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC><B4088685FCD64AD4B635DB5FEE51EA67@hometwxakonvzn>
	<2E32A21BCAC44F8AAE44F1D74866FEF0@HP8730notebook>
Message-ID: <757D1E1286BB4F77A120A1B1750C442A@hometwxakonvzn>

Yeh, that was a duh----- Original Message ----- ... I thought he was talking 
about DBS.
From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> duh,
> what do you think?
> falsifying your physical living address!
> Bryan Schulz
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>> What's dishonest? RJ
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and 
>> DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>>> That is dishonest!
>>>
>>> Steve
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>>> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>>> DBS's
>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact
>>>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>>>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>>>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and 
>>>> the
>>>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That 
>>>> is
>>>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>>>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that 
>>>> you
>>>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the 
>>>> cheaper
>>>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that 
>>>> lives
>>>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>>>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>>>> head ache
>>>>
>>>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>>>>> DBS's
>>>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like 
>>>>> your
>>>>> feed back. RJ
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>>>> mother.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can
>>>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the 
>>>>> Palm
>>>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to
>>>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>>>> you
>>>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>>>> and
>>>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>>>
>>>>> District Administrator
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for
>>>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>>>> concerning
>>>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find 
>>>>> the
>>>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, 
>>>>> due
>>>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to 
>>>>> having
>>>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking 
>>>>> at
>>>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>>>> services:
>>>>> Out of State Services
>>>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>>>
>>>>> SUBJECT
>>>>> Out of State Services
>>>>>
>>>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>>> July 9, 2003
>>>>>
>>>>> REVISION DATE
>>>>> February 14, 2008
>>>>>
>>>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> PURPOSE
>>>>>
>>>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>>>
>>>>> AUTHORITY
>>>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>>>
>>>>> POLICY
>>>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference 
>>>>> for
>>>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>>>> deny
>>>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>>>> the
>>>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation 
>>>>> plan,
>>>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>>>> service.
>>>>>
>>>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 
>>>>> But
>>>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in 
>>>>> RSA
>>>>> PD-01-03:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>>>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>>>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>>>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>>>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>>>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>>>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>>>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>>>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>>>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>>>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>>>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>>>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this
>>>>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend
>>>>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with 
>>>>> DBS,
>>>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you 
>>>>> know
>>>>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get 
>>>>> my
>>>>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>>>> an
>>>>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>>>> Seminary,
>>>>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my
>>>>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd
>>>>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do.
>>>>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have 
>>>>> the
>>>>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I 
>>>>> have
>>>>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>>>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>>>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>>>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
>>>> your
>>>> inbox.
>>>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindlaw:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
>>> 02:31:00
>>>
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>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10 
>> 02:31:00
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>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
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>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> blindlaw:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
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>> blindlaw:
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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> blindlaw:
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From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 03:52:28 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 23:52:28 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [nabs-l] informed choice
Message-ID: <25AEFA7A9393461A9407AA54AC3E75BD@hometwxakonvzn>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] informed choice


> Hi all,
>
> It sounds like Beth has already gone through this justification
> process and received approval for funding to go to CCB. The problem is
> that rehab is only agreeing to pay the in-state rate, which is less
> than what CCB charges per month. The question is, Can rehab legally be
> obligated to provide not just partial funding, but full funding, for
> out-of-state training? I don't know the answer to that.
>
> Arielle
>
> On 4/24/10, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>> Actually, someone trying for something out of the ordinary with rehab
>> should remember that they have an employment goal, and an
>> Individualized Plan for Employment.  They have to show how the
>> alternative they propose will get them to their goal, while the
>> resources the agency normally uses would not do so.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 08:31 PM 4/24/2010, you wrote:
>>>Focus more on the "daily use of skills" part, because any center can
>>>claim they teach you braille. THey put you in there for an hour and 
>>>that's
>>> it.
>>>Its not what you learn at LCB that sets it apart, its how you learn
>>>it--the fact that its blind teaching the blind, and that you have to
>>>use your skills on a daily bases, not because its required to pass,
>>>but because you absolutely have to.
>>>
>>>
>>>Jorge
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Apr 25 07:31:06 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 00:31:06 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn>
	<BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F85DB6ACA92B4A5B82AE2E124136AED4@spike>

I raised the question in the past but did not get an answer. Therefore, I 
will restate it.
What does the NFB do to advocate for those in states whose state agencies do 
not provide funding for them to attend NFB centers. Secondly, what other 
means of funding are available for blind people to attend NFB centers who 
for various reasons do not receive VR funding? In other words, does the NFB 
m;ake funds available for those worthy and willing to attend but have no 
other means?
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


>
> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact 
> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with 
> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For 
> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the 
> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is 
> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not 
> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you 
> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper 
> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives 
> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the 
> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a 
> head ache
>
>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your 
>> feed back. RJ
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>> To: RJ Sandefur
>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>> concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your 
>> mother.
>>
>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can 
>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm 
>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to 
>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>
>>
>>
>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because you 
>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>
>>
>>
>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office and 
>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 
>> 866-225-0794.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>
>> District Administrator
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>> concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for 
>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy concerning 
>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center, 
>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the 
>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due 
>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having 
>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of 
>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be 
>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at 
>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state 
>> services:
>> Out of State Services
>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>
>> SUBJECT
>> Out of State Services
>>
>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>> July 9, 2003
>>
>> REVISION DATE
>> February 14, 2008
>>
>> EXPIRATION DATE
>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>
>> PURPOSE
>>
>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>
>> AUTHORITY
>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>
>> POLICY
>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for 
>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively deny 
>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an 
>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and 
>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the 
>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of the 
>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services 
>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, 
>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a 
>> service.
>>
>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But 
>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA 
>> PD-01-03:
>>
>>
>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this 
>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend 
>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, 
>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've 
>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know 
>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my 
>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make an 
>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a Seminary, 
>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my 
>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd 
>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do. 
>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the 
>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have 
>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now, I 
>> didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal 
>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look 
>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your 
> inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Apr 25 08:10:28 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 01:10:28 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <2EACBFA02CED480DAC762547353CE29A@noneeb869fea9a>
References: <2EACBFA02CED480DAC762547353CE29A@noneeb869fea9a>
Message-ID: <7257BB046310472A9C22894204A4F6A8@spike>

Especially as legal professionals we can't in good conscience engage in 
advising people to engage in illegal or fraudulent activity to obtain 
services.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


>I agree with Steve. This is blatantly dishonest and could actually result 
>in
> the client ending up with no services at all.
>
>
> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>
> P.O. Box 6063
>
> Gainesville, FL 32627
>
> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>
> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>
> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication 
> in
> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that 
> email
> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
> control.  Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
> That is dishonest!
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
> DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>
>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will
>> infact
>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is
>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you
>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper
>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives
>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>> head ache
>>
>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>>> DBS's
>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like
>>> your
>>> feed back. RJ
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>> mother.
>>>
>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we
>>> can
>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice
>>> to
>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because
>>> you
>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office
>>> and
>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>
>>> District Administrator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -----------
>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions
>>> for
>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>> concerning
>
>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the
>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due
>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>> services:
>>> Out of State Services
>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>
>>> SUBJECT
>>> Out of State Services
>>>
>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>> July 9, 2003
>>>
>>> REVISION DATE
>>> February 14, 2008
>>>
>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>
>>> PURPOSE
>>>
>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>
>>> AUTHORITY
>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>
>>> POLICY
>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference
>>> for
>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>> deny
>
>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>> the
>
>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>> service.
>>>
>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008
>>> But
>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>> PD-01-03:
>>>
>>>
>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants and
>>> individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to exercise
>>> informed choice throughout the VR process, including making decisions
>>> about the employment goal, VR services, service providers, settings
>>> for employment and service provision, and methods for procuring
>>> services. To enable an individual to make such decisions, the State
>>> VR agency must provide information, support and assistance needed by
>>> the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to implement
>>> policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop resources that
>>> enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR services to
>>> exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process; these
>>> policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with Federal
>>> statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean,
>>> that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB,
>>> due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you
>>> know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to
>>> get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order
>>> to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study
>>> with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was
>>> licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom,
>>> and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord
>>> has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective
>>> minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive?
>>> Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as
>>> by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from
>> your
>> inbox.
>>
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in
> sightbb.com
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
> 02:31:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Sun Apr 25 08:11:44 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 01:11:44 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <B4088685FCD64AD4B635DB5FEE51EA67@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl><94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC>
	<B4088685FCD64AD4B635DB5FEE51EA67@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <1A375FF0A6524225B631D119C080158D@spike>

The dishonesty is claiming to be a resident of a state when you are not and 
you have no intention of legally establishing residency in that state.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> What's dishonest? RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>> That is dishonest!
>>
>> Steve
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>>>
>>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact
>>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That 
>>> is
>>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that 
>>> you
>>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the 
>>> cheaper
>>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that 
>>> lives
>>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>>> head ache
>>>
>>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's
>>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your
>>>> feed back. RJ
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>>> mother.
>>>>
>>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can
>>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to
>>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>>> you
>>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>>> and
>>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>>
>>>> District Administrator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for
>>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>>> concerning
>>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find 
>>>> the
>>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, 
>>>> due
>>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>>> services:
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>>
>>>> SUBJECT
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>>
>>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>> July 9, 2003
>>>>
>>>> REVISION DATE
>>>> February 14, 2008
>>>>
>>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>>
>>>> PURPOSE
>>>>
>>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>>
>>>> AUTHORITY
>>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>>
>>>> POLICY
>>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for
>>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>>> deny
>>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>>> the
>>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>>> service.
>>>>
>>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But
>>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>>> PD-01-03:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this
>>>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend
>>>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know
>>>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my
>>>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>>> an
>>>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>>> Seminary,
>>>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my
>>>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd
>>>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do.
>>>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have 
>>>> the
>>>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I 
>>>> have
>>>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
>>> your
>>> inbox.
>>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
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>>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
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>>
>
>
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> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 15:48:32 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:48:32 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [nabs-l] informed choice
Message-ID: <62E64636CDDB41368621B99AD1896732@hometwxakonvzn>

Is this person correct?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Briley Pollard" <brileyp at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] informed choice


> Informed choice as I understand it states that if another out of state 
> facility can provide services that the in state facility cannot, then the 
> state in question is to pay full funding for the training. If you can 
> outline the differences, they should pay for all of it. I'd appeal that 
> decision, Beth.
>
> Briley
> On Apr 25, 2010, at 12:07 AM, RJ Sandefur wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, she's right, because she read the letter to me. I've atteched RSA's 
>> policy concerninginformed choice, and DBS's policy on the subject. 
>> RJ -----  Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] informed choice
>>
>>
>>> I had the executive director write the letter of justification and
>>> when I got it, I read it, and it was the best letter I could've
>>> written.  They're only sponsoring the in-state portion, so I have to
>>> get more money in order to pay for this thing in full.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 4/24/10, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>>>> Actually, someone trying for something out of the ordinary with rehab
>>>> should remember that they have an employment goal, and an
>>>> Individualized Plan for Employment.  They have to show how the
>>>> alternative they propose will get them to their goal, while the
>>>> resources the agency normally uses would not do so.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> At 08:31 PM 4/24/2010, you wrote:
>>>>> Focus more on the "daily use of skills" part, because any center can
>>>>> claim they teach you braille. THey put you in there for an hour and 
>>>>> that's
>>>>> it.
>>>>> Its not what you learn at LCB that sets it apart, its how you learn
>>>>> it--the fact that its blind teaching the blind, and that you have to
>>>>> use your skills on a daily bases, not because its required to pass,
>>>>> but because you absolutely have to.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jorge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>> <pd-01-03.doc><Standefur Informed 
>> Choice.pdf>_______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 16:48:02 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 12:48:02 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [nabs-l] informed choice
Message-ID: <2A94031B4A7F4D82AF68C9BC3E23799A@hometwxakonvzn>

What does the law say concerning this issue?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] informed choice


> >From what I understand, the state government gives the commission and 
> >other such agencies enough funds for programs, even if they are out of 
> >state, and, if you can justify it, I do believe that they are legally 
> >bound to pay the full sum, due to the fact that the government gives them 
> >enough money to do so.
>
> I suggest you talk with an attorney though, because it looks like the 
> thing you have to figure out is if they are legally bound to pay full 
> price. If they are, you can go ahead with your case, but if they're not 
> than you're basically by yourself.
>
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From dandrews at visi.com  Sun Apr 25 18:02:24 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:02:24 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
 and  Db's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <F85DB6ACA92B4A5B82AE2E124136AED4@spike>
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn>
	<BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
	<F85DB6ACA92B4A5B82AE2E124136AED4@spike>
Message-ID: <auto-000149623185@mailfront2.g2host.com>

This is not really an appropriate question for Blind Law.  While 
someone could jump through several hoops and say that it encompassed 
legal considerations -- this is a stretch at best.

Dave

At 02:31 AM 4/25/2010, you wrote:
>I raised the question in the past but did not get an answer. 
>Therefore, I will restate it.
>What does the NFB do to advocate for those in states whose state 
>agencies do not provide funding for them to attend NFB centers. 
>Secondly, what other means of funding are available for blind people 
>to attend NFB centers who for various reasons do not receive VR 
>funding? In other words, does the NFB m;ake funds available for 
>those worthy and willing to attend but have no other means?
>Chuck
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:02 AM
>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, 
>and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>
>>As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will 
>>infact deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can 
>>come up with specific reason that you need to attend that center of 
>>their own. For example fi you were going to go into a specific 
>>vocational field and the other center had a program geared toward 
>>it while theirs did not. That is what the statement on out of state 
>>triaining is saying. If you can not show that there is a training 
>>aspect that will be provided their that you need that is not 
>>offered in state then they will only support the cheaper in state 
>>training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives in 
>>lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the 
>>lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less 
>>of a head ache
>>
>>>From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>>>DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like 
>>>your feed back. RJ
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>To: RJ Sandefur
>>>Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
>>>policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>>Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your mother.
>>>
>>>If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we 
>>>can reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of 
>>>the Palm Beaches at this time for training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed 
>>>Choice to help you in making your decision about training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, 
>>>because you attached it to your e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>In order to assist you with training services, please call our 
>>>office and ask to have your case reopen for services at 
>>>561-681-2448 or 866-225-0794.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>
>>>District Administrator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>>>concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>>Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions 
>>>for you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>>concerning out of state services. In 1999, I attended the 
>>>rehabilitation center, which is now the orientation and adjustment 
>>>center, and did not find the experience to be a pleasant one. In 
>>>2004, I closed my case with DBS, due to a disagreement with my 
>>>councilor at the time. However, due to having recently lost my 
>>>mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of some 
>>>adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be 
>>>conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was 
>>>looking at the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning 
>>>out of state services:
>>>Out of State Services
>>>DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>
>>>SUBJECT
>>>Out of State Services
>>>
>>>EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>July 9, 2003
>>>
>>>REVISION DATE
>>>February 14, 2008
>>>
>>>EXPIRATION DATE
>>>This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>
>>>PURPOSE
>>>
>>>To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>
>>>AUTHORITY
>>>34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>
>>>POLICY
>>>The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a 
>>>preference for in-State services, provided that the preference 
>>>does not effectively deny an individual a necessary service. If 
>>>the individual chooses an out-of-State service at a higher cost 
>>>than an in-State service, and either service would meet the 
>>>individual's rehabilitation needs, the designated State unit is 
>>>not responsible for those costs in excess of the cost of the 
>>>in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services provides a 
>>>unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, the 
>>>Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a service.
>>>
>>>Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 
>>>2008 But compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated 
>>>in 2001 in RSA PD-01-03:
>>>
>>>
>>>POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>>and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>>exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>>decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>>settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>>procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>>the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>>needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>>implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>>resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>>services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>>these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>>Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does 
>>>this mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request 
>>>to attend LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new 
>>>case with DBS, since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your 
>>>convience, I've attached a document explaining what LCB is, 
>>>although I'm shure you know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only 
>>>an inquiry, and I wish to get my facts so that I'll be able to 
>>>have enough information in order to make an informed choice as to 
>>>where to go from here. I did study with a Seminary, and obtain my 
>>>master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my church to 
>>>preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd want 
>>>me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do. 
>>>However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't 
>>>have the blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I 
>>>have, is I have learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. 
>>>In 2004, until now, I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a 
>>>batchors degree in criminal justice. Another not so wise disision 
>>>on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look forward to your answer. Sencerly, 
>>>Robert Sandefur



From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Sun Apr 25 23:00:41 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:00:41 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <7257BB046310472A9C22894204A4F6A8@spike>
References: <2EACBFA02CED480DAC762547353CE29A@noneeb869fea9a>
	<7257BB046310472A9C22894204A4F6A8@spike>
Message-ID: <5299EB507DCF4C568552ED4FEBCAC2C7@StevePC>

No kidding!!
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 4:10 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> Especially as legal professionals we can't in good conscience engage in
> advising people to engage in illegal or fraudulent activity to obtain
> services.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>I agree with Steve. This is blatantly dishonest and could actually result
>>in
>> the client ending up with no services at all.
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication
>> in
>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated 
>> printed
>> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
>> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal 
>> and/or
>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that
>> email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and 
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> That is dishonest!
>>
>> Steve
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>>>
>>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will
>>> infact
>>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That 
>>> is
>>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that 
>>> you
>>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the 
>>> cheaper
>>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that 
>>> lives
>>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>>> head ache
>>>
>>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>>>> DBS's
>>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like
>>>> your
>>>> feed back. RJ
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>>> mother.
>>>>
>>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we
>>>> can
>>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice
>>>> to
>>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because
>>>> you
>>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office
>>>> and
>>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>>
>>>> District Administrator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -----------
>>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions
>>>> for
>>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy
>>>> concerning
>>
>>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find 
>>>> the
>>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, 
>>>> due
>>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>>> services:
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>>
>>>> SUBJECT
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>>
>>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>> July 9, 2003
>>>>
>>>> REVISION DATE
>>>> February 14, 2008
>>>>
>>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>>
>>>> PURPOSE
>>>>
>>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>>
>>>> AUTHORITY
>>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>>
>>>> POLICY
>>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference
>>>> for
>>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively
>>>> deny
>>
>>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of
>>>> the
>>
>>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>>> service.
>>>>
>>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008
>>>> But
>>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>>> PD-01-03:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants and
>>>> individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to exercise
>>>> informed choice throughout the VR process, including making decisions
>>>> about the employment goal, VR services, service providers, settings
>>>> for employment and service provision, and methods for procuring
>>>> services. To enable an individual to make such decisions, the State
>>>> VR agency must provide information, support and assistance needed by
>>>> the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to implement
>>>> policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop resources that
>>>> enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR services to
>>>> exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process; these
>>>> policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with Federal
>>>> statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean,
>>>> that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB,
>>>> due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you
>>>> know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to
>>>> get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order
>>>> to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study
>>>> with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was
>>>> licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom,
>>>> and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord
>>>> has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective
>>>> minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive?
>>>> Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as
>>>> by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from
>>> your
>>> inbox.
>>>
>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
>> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in
>> sightbb.com
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
>> 02:31:00
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10 
02:31:00
-------------- next part --------------

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10 02:31:00

From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Sun Apr 25 23:03:28 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:03:28 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
In-Reply-To: <3CB0EE7B3E0F473096074B2FD260C252@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <2EACBFA02CED480DAC762547353CE29A@noneeb869fea9a>
	<3CB0EE7B3E0F473096074B2FD260C252@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <4BCAE8736D31404F8AEFD24EE4A5ACF1@StevePC>

Are you a fool or what????  You are falsifying an address for somewhere 
where you don't reside!
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> How or in what way is this being dishonest? Can you please email me off
> list, and tell me what my options are? My email adress is
> joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
> Thanks RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ramsey" <joramsey at cox.net>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 5:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>I agree with Steve. This is blatantly dishonest and could actually result
>>in
>> the client ending up with no services at all.
>>
>>
>> John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.
>>
>> P.O. Box 6063
>>
>> Gainesville, FL 32627
>>
>> Phone: (352) 505-6642
>>
>> Fax: (352) 240-6453
>>
>> This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
>> legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
>> entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication
>> in
>> error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated 
>> printed
>> materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
>> aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
>> communication or the information it contains may result in criminal 
>> and/or
>> civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
>> John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
>> uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
>> communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
>> 505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that
>> email
>> messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
>> control.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:44 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and 
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>> That is dishonest!
>>
>> Steve
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>> DBS's
>> policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>>>
>>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will
>>> infact
>>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That 
>>> is
>>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that 
>>> you
>>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the 
>>> cheaper
>>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that 
>>> lives
>>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>>> head ache
>>>
>>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>>>> DBS's
>>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like
>>>> your
>>>> feed back. RJ
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>>> mother.
>>>>
>>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we
>>>> can
>>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice
>>>> to
>>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because
>>>> you
>>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office
>>>> and
>>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>>
>>>> District Administrator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -----------
>>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>> concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions
>>>> for
>>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy
>>>> concerning
>>
>>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find 
>>>> the
>>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, 
>>>> due
>>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>>> services:
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>>
>>>> SUBJECT
>>>> Out of State Services
>>>>
>>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>> July 9, 2003
>>>>
>>>> REVISION DATE
>>>> February 14, 2008
>>>>
>>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>>
>>>> PURPOSE
>>>>
>>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>>
>>>> AUTHORITY
>>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>>
>>>> POLICY
>>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference
>>>> for
>>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively
>>>> deny
>>
>>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of
>>>> the
>>
>>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>>> service.
>>>>
>>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008
>>>> But
>>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>>> PD-01-03:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants and
>>>> individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to exercise
>>>> informed choice throughout the VR process, including making decisions
>>>> about the employment goal, VR services, service providers, settings
>>>> for employment and service provision, and methods for procuring
>>>> services. To enable an individual to make such decisions, the State
>>>> VR agency must provide information, support and assistance needed by
>>>> the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to implement
>>>> policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop resources that
>>>> enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR services to
>>>> exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process; these
>>>> policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with Federal
>>>> statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this mean,
>>>> that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend LCB,
>>>> due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you
>>>> know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to
>>>> get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order
>>>> to make an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study
>>>> with a Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was
>>>> licensed by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom,
>>>> and I know, she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord
>>>> has called me to do. However, How am I going to be an effective
>>>> minister, if I don't have the blindness training, needed to sirvive?
>>>> Another concern I have, is I have learned some ministers start out as
>>>> by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from
>>> your
>>> inbox.
>>>
>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
>> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindlaw:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in
>> sightbb.com
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10
>> 02:31:00
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2832 - Release Date: 04/24/10 
02:31:00
-------------- next part --------------

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2835 - Release Date: 04/25/10 14:31:00

From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 26 00:12:45 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:12:45 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
	<94141AD1F2D744DEAC2344E78082704F@StevePC>
Message-ID: <CA8B5724DECC4462AC884B048081EB3A@Rob>

Colleagues, I tend to agree with Mr. Deeley. This is analagous to the 
scandal back in the early 1990s when Baguan Shri RaNnish used local 
addresses to register homeless people to vote in his community to have an 
impact on national andlocal elections. He too got caught.
Rob Tabor
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve P. Deeley" <stevep.deeley at insightbb.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


> That is dishonest!
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
> DBS's
> policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>
>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact
>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with
>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For
>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the
>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is
>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not
>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you
>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper
>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives
>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the
>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a
>> head ache
>>
>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's
>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your
>>> feed back. RJ
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>> mother.
>>>
>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can
>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm
>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to
>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>> you
>>> attached it to your e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>> and
>>> ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>
>>> District Administrator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for
>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>> concerning
>>> out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation center,
>>> which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not find the
>>> experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with DBS, due
>>> to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due to having
>>> recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of
>>> some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should be
>>> conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at
>>> the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state
>>> services:
>>> Out of State Services
>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>
>>> SUBJECT
>>> Out of State Services
>>>
>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>> July 9, 2003
>>>
>>> REVISION DATE
>>> February 14, 2008
>>>
>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>
>>> PURPOSE
>>>
>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>
>>> AUTHORITY
>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>
>>> POLICY
>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for
>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>> deny
>>> an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an
>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and
>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the
>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>> the
>>> cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services
>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan,
>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a
>>> service.
>>>
>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But
>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA
>>> PD-01-03:
>>>
>>>
>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this
>>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend
>>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS,
>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've
>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know
>>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my
>>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>> an
>>> informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>> Seminary,
>>> and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my
>>> church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd
>>> want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do.
>>> However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have the
>>> blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have
>>> learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now,
>> I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal
>> justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I look
>> forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
>> your
>> inbox.
>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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> 



From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 26 00:32:17 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:32:17 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and DBS's policy concerning out of state services
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl>
	<F85DB6ACA92B4A5B82AE2E124136AED4@spike>
Message-ID: <C9F9E6570C99493E88453585FCEE6E44@Rob>

Good evening Chuck and listers.
I can't speak for other state affiliates, but I know that here in the land 
of Oz, (Kansas) <smile> we are constantly advocating with the rehab 
commissioner to send newly blinded Kansas residents to CCB, Ruston LA, and 
other high quality prevocational blindness skills training programs. I 
suspect the pressure to do so will intensify after April 30, (that's this 
coming Friday) which will be the last day of operations for the rehab center 
for the blind which has been located in Topeka Kansas since the 1940s. 
Beginning Mayy 1, there will in fact be two justifications if not 
imparatives for doing so. First, there will be no comprehensive rehab 
training facilities in Kansas to make blindness skills training available. 
Secondly, the administrative and operational costs savings from no longer 
having to operate a rehab facility in Kansas will arguably create a funding 
stream that can be transferred to meet the prevocational rehab training 
needs of Kansas residents. However, we have one other wild card in the poker 
deck. Michael Donnelly, the current commish, is dangling financial carrots 
to various organizations to provide "community based" categorical services. 
I suspect this is a transparently inartful dodge to avoid sending taxpayer 
money out of Kansas. stay tuned. There will no doubt be more in the 
continuing saga.
best regards
Rob Tabor vice president Jayhawk Chapter NFB of Kansas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's 
policy concerning out of state services


>I raised the question in the past but did not get an answer. Therefore, I 
>will restate it.
> What does the NFB do to advocate for those in states whose state agencies 
> do not provide funding for them to attend NFB centers. Secondly, what 
> other means of funding are available for blind people to attend NFB 
> centers who for various reasons do not receive VR funding? In other words, 
> does the NFB m;ake funds available for those worthy and willing to attend 
> but have no other means?
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
> DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>
>> As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact 
>> deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with 
>> specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For 
>> example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the 
>> other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is 
>> what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not 
>> show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you 
>> need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper 
>> in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives 
>> in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the 
>> lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a 
>> head ache
>>
>>> From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
>>> policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>> Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your 
>>> feed back. RJ
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> To: RJ Sandefur
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>> Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your 
>>> mother.
>>>
>>> If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can 
>>> reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm 
>>> Beaches at this time for training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to 
>>> help you in making your decision about training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>> you attached it to your e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>> and ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 
>>> 866-225-0794.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>
>>> District Administrator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>> To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>> Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>>> concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for 
>>> you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>> concerning out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation 
>>> center, which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not 
>>> find the experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with 
>>> DBS, due to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due 
>>> to having recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in 
>>> need of some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should 
>>> be conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking 
>>> at the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state 
>>> services:
>>> Out of State Services
>>> DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>
>>> SUBJECT
>>> Out of State Services
>>>
>>> EFFECTIVE DATE
>>> July 9, 2003
>>>
>>> REVISION DATE
>>> February 14, 2008
>>>
>>> EXPIRATION DATE
>>> This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>
>>> PURPOSE
>>>
>>> To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>
>>> AUTHORITY
>>> 34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>
>>> POLICY
>>> The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for 
>>> in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>> deny an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an 
>>> out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and 
>>> either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the 
>>> designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>> the cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services 
>>> provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, 
>>> the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a 
>>> service.
>>>
>>> Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But 
>>> compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA 
>>> PD-01-03:
>>>
>>>
>>> POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>> and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>> exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>> decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>> settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>> procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>> the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>> needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>> implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>> resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>> services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>> these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>> Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this 
>>> mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend 
>>> LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, 
>>> since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've 
>>> attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know 
>>> who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my 
>>> facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>> an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>> Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed 
>>> by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, 
>>> she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to 
>>> do. However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have 
>>> the blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I 
>>> have learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until 
>>> now, I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in 
>>> criminal justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I 
>>> look forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from 
>> your inbox.
>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 26 00:44:17 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:44:17 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,
	and  Db's policy concerning out of state services
References: <A882C41752BD4B1EBC93ABA30E61F4D1@hometwxakonvzn><BAY139-W2B8144F8A2A67FA49CCE7CF060@phx.gbl><F85DB6ACA92B4A5B82AE2E124136AED4@spike>
	<auto-000149623185@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <B5932B2B9D734718A1A6268444E7B906@Rob>

David, sorry for jumping the gun. I had not seen your determination that the 
discussion was off topic before responding. Have a great evening
Rob Tabor
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and Db's 
policy concerning out of state services


> This is not really an appropriate question for Blind Law.  While someone 
> could jump through several hoops and say that it encompassed legal 
> considerations -- this is a stretch at best.
>
> Dave
>
> At 02:31 AM 4/25/2010, you wrote:
>>I raised the question in the past but did not get an answer. Therefore, I 
>>will restate it.
>>What does the NFB do to advocate for those in states whose state agencies 
>>do not provide funding for them to attend NFB centers. Secondly, what 
>>other means of funding are available for blind people to attend NFB 
>>centers who for various reasons do not receive VR funding? In other words, 
>>does the NFB m;ake funds available for those worthy and willing to attend 
>>but have no other means?
>>Chuck
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Shaw" <timandvickie at hotmail.com>
>>To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:02 AM
>>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and 
>>DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>>>
>>>As a person working for a similar agency will telly ou they will infact 
>>>deny you sending you to the lousiana center unless you can come up with 
>>>specific reason that you need to attend that center of their own. For 
>>>example fi you were going to go into a specific vocational field and the 
>>>other center had a program geared toward it while theirs did not. That is 
>>>what the statement on out of state triaining is saying. If you can not 
>>>show that there is a training aspect that will be provided their that you 
>>>need that is not offered in state then they will only support the cheaper 
>>>in state training. My advice would be to find someone you know that lives 
>>>in lousiana and use their address to oopen a case there and get the 
>>>lousiana agency to send yu to the center. That would be much less of a 
>>>head ache
>>>
>>>>From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>>To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:52:18 -0400
>>>>Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's 
>>>>policy concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>Here's the attachment she sent. Its been scanned as well. I'd like your 
>>>>feed back. RJ
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>>To: RJ Sandefur
>>>>Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>>Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>>>>concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your 
>>>>mother.
>>>>
>>>>If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we can 
>>>>reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of the Palm 
>>>>Beaches at this time for training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice to 
>>>>help you in making your decision about training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because 
>>>>you attached it to your e-mail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>In order to assist you with training services, please call our office 
>>>>and ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or 
>>>>866-225-0794.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>>
>>>>District Administrator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>>To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>>Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy 
>>>>concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions for 
>>>>you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy 
>>>>concerning out of state services. In 1999, I attended the rehabilitation 
>>>>center, which is now the orientation and adjustment center, and did not 
>>>>find the experience to be a pleasant one. In 2004, I closed my case with 
>>>>DBS, due to a disagreement with my councilor at the time. However, due 
>>>>to having recently lost my mother, and other factors, I believe I am in 
>>>>need of some adjustment to blindness training, and this training should 
>>>>be conducted at the Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking 
>>>>at the DBS web sight and came across the policy concerning out of state 
>>>>services:
>>>>Out of State Services
>>>>DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>>
>>>>SUBJECT
>>>>Out of State Services
>>>>
>>>>EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>>July 9, 2003
>>>>
>>>>REVISION DATE
>>>>February 14, 2008
>>>>
>>>>EXPIRATION DATE
>>>>This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>>
>>>>PURPOSE
>>>>
>>>>To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>>
>>>>AUTHORITY
>>>>34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>>
>>>>POLICY
>>>>The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference for 
>>>>in-State services, provided that the preference does not effectively 
>>>>deny an individual a necessary service. If the individual chooses an 
>>>>out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State service, and 
>>>>either service would meet the individual's rehabilitation needs, the 
>>>>designated State unit is not responsible for those costs in excess of 
>>>>the cost of the in-State service. However, if the out-of-state services 
>>>>provides a unique service to meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, 
>>>>the Bureau Chief should be contacted to approve or disapproval such a 
>>>>service.
>>>>
>>>>Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008 But 
>>>>compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001 in RSA 
>>>>PD-01-03:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>POLICY STATEMENT: The State VR program must provide applicants
>>>>and individuals eligible for VR services with opportunities to
>>>>exercise informed choice throughout the VR process, including making
>>>>decisions about the employment goal, VR services, service providers,
>>>>settings for employment and service provision, and methods for
>>>>procuring services. To enable an individual to make such decisions,
>>>>the State VR agency must provide information, support and assistance
>>>>needed by the individual. The VR agency has the responsibility to
>>>>implement policies, procedures, and practices, and to develop
>>>>resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible for VR
>>>>services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR process;
>>>>these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent with
>>>>Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does this 
>>>>mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to attend 
>>>>LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case with DBS, 
>>>>since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your convience, I've 
>>>>attached a document explaining what LCB is, although I'm shure you know 
>>>>who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry, and I wish to get my 
>>>>facts so that I'll be able to have enough information in order to make 
>>>>an informed choice as to where to go from here. I did study with a 
>>>>Seminary, and obtain my master of theology, in 2006, and I was licensed 
>>>>by my church to preach in 2005. It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, 
>>>>she'd want me to continue doing what I believe the Lord has called me to 
>>>>do. However, How am I going to be an effective minister, if I don't have 
>>>>the blindness training, needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I 
>>>>have learned some ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until 
>>>>now, I didn't see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in 
>>>>criminal justice. Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs. Davis, I 
>>>>look forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglobal.net 



From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 26 05:04:42 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:04:42 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [nabs-l] informed choice
In-Reply-To: <62E64636CDDB41368621B99AD1896732@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <62E64636CDDB41368621B99AD1896732@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <45FAFF3DC5C24751BD2E41F6286D3912@spike>

AS a consumer you have the right to appeal any decision that is made by a 
state rehab agency through the hearing process and ultimately in a law suit.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 8:48 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] Fw: [nabs-l] informed choice


> Is this person correct?
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Briley Pollard" <brileyp at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] informed choice
>
>
>> Informed choice as I understand it states that if another out of state 
>> facility can provide services that the in state facility cannot, then the 
>> state in question is to pay full funding for the training. If you can 
>> outline the differences, they should pay for all of it. I'd appeal that 
>> decision, Beth.
>>
>> Briley
>> On Apr 25, 2010, at 12:07 AM, RJ Sandefur wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, she's right, because she read the letter to me. I've atteched RSA's 
>>> policy concerninginformed choice, and DBS's policy on the subject. 
>>> RJ -----  Original Message ----- From: "Beth" 
>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:35 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] informed choice
>>>
>>>
>>>> I had the executive director write the letter of justification and
>>>> when I got it, I read it, and it was the best letter I could've
>>>> written.  They're only sponsoring the in-state portion, so I have to
>>>> get more money in order to pay for this thing in full.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 4/24/10, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>> Actually, someone trying for something out of the ordinary with rehab
>>>>> should remember that they have an employment goal, and an
>>>>> Individualized Plan for Employment.  They have to show how the
>>>>> alternative they propose will get them to their goal, while the
>>>>> resources the agency normally uses would not do so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> At 08:31 PM 4/24/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>> Focus more on the "daily use of skills" part, because any center can
>>>>>> claim they teach you braille. THey put you in there for an hour and 
>>>>>> that's
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>> Its not what you learn at LCB that sets it apart, its how you learn
>>>>>> it--the fact that its blind teaching the blind, and that you have to
>>>>>> use your skills on a daily bases, not because its required to pass,
>>>>>> but because you absolutely have to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>> <pd-01-03.doc><Standefur Informed 
>>> Choice.pdf>_______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
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From joramsey at cox.net  Mon Apr 26 06:52:59 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 02:52:59 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] Legal Quotes
Message-ID: <D84C086C9CAD4CFB83C70180DC469ADF@noneeb869fea9a>

This is for all of you legal scholars. Where did the famous quote that
references using the law as both a sword and a shield come from?
Thanks,
John
 

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453


This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
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From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Apr 26 17:28:34 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 12:28:34 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Southwest Airlines and Customers of Size
Message-ID: <001a01cae565$e74b9bb0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello everyone,

    Convention is rapidly approaching and many of us are making airline 
reservations. For many of us this isn't any real concern. However large 
customers, or what airlines like South call "Customers of Size" have been 
subject to policies that can limit their airline choice and can add 
additional expense and frustration to their flying experience. I know about 
this first-hand as it happened to me last year when we flew to Detroit. I 
know that many of you heard bits and pieces of that story. Southwest's 
Customers of Size appears below along with their policy concerning the 
carriage of service animals.

    While the concerns of large passengers aren't a major issue of the NFB 
when two policies conflict I believe there is cause for alarm and a need to 
investigate. I travel with a guide dog. Southwest's policy says that guide 
dogs may occupy the space at the passenger's seat and that of the seat next 
to the passenger. This language leads a service animal user of any size to 
believe that every effort will be made to block off the seat next to the 
passenger giving the service animal more room so why charge them for that 
seat. We may be looking at a possible ACAA violation if the airline chooses 
to do this as a courtesy to guide dog and other service animal users.

    Note also that the language in the Customer of Size Policy is the same 
old dribble we've heard from airlines before about safety and such. 
Southwest gives large customers a refund of the unused seat but chasing down 
that refund is a royal pain. Ask someone who went through that experience. I 
don't care what they say. If other entities see it fit to have seating 
available for large persons airlines should be expected to do the same. This 
would also benefit guide dog users giving them extra room for their dog 
without compromising the floorspace of an adjacent passenger.

    Anyone coming to Dallas for the convention and who is large is advised 
to choose Delta or another airline with friendlier large customer policies. 
We flew on Delta last fall and didn't have any problems due to my large 
size. Because $1000.00 of professional recording equipment was damaged by 
Southwest last year "What a reward for sitting down and shutting up" to 
quote Dr. Maurer we're having to take extraordinary measures. In addition to 
purchasing travel insurance we'll be chartering a plane to Dallas and back 
to avoid mishandling of the recording equipment by baggage personnel, issues 
related to size, and the many other benefits private air charter has over 
scheduled flights. Here are the two policies:


Southwest Airlines Customers of Size Policy

>From the Web Site:
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_guidelines.html

Guidelines for Customers of 
Size--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Customers who are unable to lower both armrests (the definitive boundary 
between seats) and/or who compromise any portion of adjacent seating should 
proactively
book the number of seats needed prior to travel. This purchase serves as a 
notification of a special seating need and allows us to process a refund of
the additional seating cost after travel (provided the flight doesn't 
oversell). Most importantly, it ensures that all onboard have access to safe 
and
comfortable seating.

For more information, please refer to our
Customer of size QA

Booking Instructions via southwest.com

list of 6 items
1. Click "Reservations."
2. Select your city pair(s) and travel date(s).
3. Select the number of seats needed ("two" is the typical choice for most 
Customers of size).
4. Proceed through the "Select Flight" and "Itinerary and Pricing" pages.
5. Complete the "Passenger Information" name fields: For
example
, a Passenger named Tom Smith would designate Passenger One as "Tom Smith," 
and Passenger Two as "Tom XS Smith" (first name XS and last name).
6. If a Customer purchases a Business Select or an Anytime fare, the second 
seat can be sold at the discounted Child's Fare. It is important to note 
that
the Child's fare is available via our Reservations Sales Center only. You 
will need to call 800 I-FLY-SWA to book/purchase the extra seat at the Child
Fare.
list end

Booking Instructions via our Reservations Center at 800 I-FLY-SWA 
(800-435-9792)

list of 3 items
1. Inform the Agent you are familiar with our Customer of size policy and 
wish to book two seats.
2. We will offer the lowest fare available and if an advance purchase, 
discounted fare is booked, the second seat will be sold at the same 
discounted fare.
3. If a Customer purchases one of our unrestricted full fares, the second 
seat will be sold at the Child's Fare.
list end

Checkin Instructions

list of 3 items
1. Customers can retrieve a
Security Document
1 online to pass through a security checkpoint if not checking baggage.
2. If baggage or wheelchair assistance is needed curbside, a skycap will 
escort the Customer to the ticket counter. The Customer of size checkin is 
handled
at the ticket counter or at the gate (and cannot be processed online or via 
E-Ticket Check-In kiosk).
3. At checkin, the Customer will receive a boarding pass,
Reserved Seat Document,
Refund Advice Slip
, and preboard directions.
list end

1On occasion, federally mandated procedures may prevent our ability to issue 
a Security Document online. Under these circumstances, please see a 
Southwest
Customer Service Agent at the airport for assistance.



Customer of Size 
QA--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From the Web Site:
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_qa.html
list of 23 items
. Is the policy unique or new to Southwest Airlines?
No, other carriers have similar policies, but to the best of our knowledge, 
no other carrier offers a refund after travel. We've followed this policy 
for
28 of our 37 years of operation, but only became more vigilant regarding the 
additional purchase when we began seeing an increase in the number of valid
complaints from passengers who traveled without full access to the seat 
purchased because a large Customer infringed upon the adjacent seating 
space.
. Why ask large Customers to purchase additional seating?
We could no longer ignore complaints from Customers who traveled without 
full access to the seat purchased due to encroachment by a large seatmate 
whose
body extended into the neighboring seat. These Customers had uncomfortable 
(and sometimes painful) travel experiences, and it is our responsibility to
seek resolution to prevent this problem.
. What is the cost of the additional seating?
If the Customer is holding an advance purchase, discounted fare, the second 
seat will be sold at the same discounted fare. If the Customer has purchased
one of our low, unrestricted full fares, the second seat will be sold at the 
Child's Fare.
. What is the definitive gauge for a Customer of size?
The armrest is the definitive gauge, as it serves as the boundary between 
seats. Customers who are unable to lower the armrests (the definitive 
boundary
between seats) and/or who compromise any portion of adjacent seating should 
proactively book the number of seats needed during initial reservations.
. How do I qualify for and request a refund of the additional seat purchase?
As long as the flight does not oversell (having more confirmed Customers 
waiting to board an aircraft than seats on the aircraft), we will refund the 
additional
seat purchase after travel. A
Refund Advice Slip
, a guide for conveniently requesting refunds (via telephone or letter), is 
provided to the Customer of size at checkin. And, if it appears a flight 
will
oversell, the option to purchase a second seat and travel on a less full 
flight is available.
. Are there other reasons to purchase additional seating?
Yes, Customers wishing to secure in an aircraft seat a musical item, a child 
restraint device for an infant, etc. must purchase an additional ticket. 
However,
these Customers have other "options" such as holding an infant under the age 
of two as a lap child or placing the instrument in an onboard stowage space
or in the cargo hold, and we are sensitive to fact that a large Customer has 
no option regarding seating space. For that reason, we offer a refund of the
additional seat purchased (by a Customer of size) as long as the flight does 
not oversell.
. Won't this be embarrassing to the large Customer and the Employee?
It's tough to speak privately in an airport setting, and because a 
discussion about size is sensitive, we've cautioned our Employees to use 
discretion.
Yes, it's difficult to deliver or receive a sensitive message, and to 
alleviate confusion, we encourage Customers with unique seating needs to 
proactively
purchase additional seating (again, this is to notify us of the unique 
need). We ask this to accommodate our Customers in comfort and avoid 
embarrassing
conversation. Ultimately, it is the Customer's responsibility to communicate 
with us upfront (at the time of booking) about his/her seating needs so that
we may best serve him/her and all others onboard.
. I am a large person and use a seatbelt extension, but I fit in one 
aircraft seat. Do I have to purchase two seats?
Our policy does not focus on weight, and the seatbelt extension is not the 
determining factor. We use the ability to lower the armrests as the gauge, 
as
the armrests are truly the definitive boundary between each seat.
. Are all overweight people subject to the policy?
Many Americans are "overweight" or "clinically obese." A number of 
overweight or obese people occupy only one seat. In fact, many Customers may 
use a seatbelt
extension but occupy only one seat, and these Customers would not be asked 
to reserve a second seat. If a Customer cannot lower the armrest (and is 
unable
to comfortably travel with it in the down position), he/she is required to 
pay for the additional seat occupied. Again, we will offer a refund if the 
flight
does not oversell.
. I'm large but can be seated with the armrests down. Aren't your Employees 
wrong to question me?
If a concern exists, we shouldn't ignore it even if it's difficult for both 
parties to discuss. Condoning an unsafe, cramped seating arrangement onboard
our aircraft is far more inappropriate than simply questioning a Customer's 
fit in our seats.
. Why not make your seats wider or add a few wide seats on your aircraft?
Our ongoing goal is to operate a low-fare, low cost airline, and the costs 
of reconfiguring our fleet would be staggering and would ultimately reflect
in the form of higher fares for our Customers. Purchasing two seats on 
Southwest Airlines is significantly less expensive than purchasing one first 
class
seat on another airline.
. If a flight is "open," why are you charging for an additional seat?
A Customer of size has no way of knowing at the time of booking if his/her 
flights will be full. The inconsistency of charging for the extra seat on 
one
occasion and not others leaves the Customer not knowing what to expect and 
not having a full understanding of our policy. Thus, we require the 
additional
purchase despite booking levels.
. Why can't two large Customers share their second seat?
Open seating cannot guarantee that there will be an entire row open for two 
Customers to sit together and share the middle seat on each leg of the trip.
. Why can't a large Customer sit with a family member who doesn't mind being 
encroached upon or a small child/person who doesn't take a full seat?
Open seating cannot guarantee that two people will be able to sit together. 
In addition, we must treat the smaller person (despite willingness or 
personal
relationship) as a valued Customer who deserves the use of a full seat. Most 
importantly, we have to consider the safety aspect of the family member 
whose
movement (especially in the event of an emergency) could be compromised if 
encroached on by a large seatmate.
. Isn't this policy just another way to increase your revenue?
No, we are not "making money" from this policy. In addition to giving the 
Customer a refund for the second seat, we are absorbing the administrative 
costs
(staffing and processing) of issuing the refund. 98 percent of extra seat 
purchases qualify for a refund, as a refund request is declined only in the 
event
of an oversale that causes us to deny transportation to a confirmed Customer 
(to whom we must issue denied boarding compensation).
. If a Customer has broad shoulders, will he/she have to buy a second seat?
Again, if a Customer cannot lower the armrests, the additional purchase is 
necessary. Simply having broad shoulders would not necessarily prevent 
another
Customer from occupying adjoining seat. The upper body can be adjusted, but 
the portion of the body in the actual seating and armrest area doesn't have
this flexibility.
. Why isn't this information on your tickets, referenced on the 
booking/reservations pages of your web site, or questioned by your 
Reservations Employees?
We estimate that the Customer of size policy affects far less than half a 
percent of our Customers, and ultimately, it is the responsibility of a 
Customer
with a unique and unusual need to communicate with us upfront so that we may 
best serve him/her and all others onboard. We won't know of an unusual need
unless the Customer tells us.
. Doesn't your policy violate the Americans with Disabilities Act or the Air 
Carrier Access Act?
Interstate airline travel is specifically excluded from Title II of the 
Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) by Section 12141(2). Airline travel is 
instead
covered by the Air Carrier Access Act, 49 U.S.C. 1374(c) and the regulations 
implementing the Act issued by the Department of Transportation as 14 CFR
Part 382, et seq. The Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) preceded the ADA, and 
Congress excluded air carriers and other air transportation services from 
the
scope of ADA. As regulated under 14 CFR §382.38 Seating accommodations (i) 
"Carriers are not required to furnish more than one seat per ticket or to 
provide
a seat in a class of service other than the one the passenger has 
purchased."
. Can I be preapproved as needing only one seat?
Because size can fluctuate, we are unable to give blanket authorization.
. How will you ensure no one takes the seat beside me if I've purchased a 
second seat?
The Customer who has purchased two seats must be an active participant in 
preserving his/her additional seat. We encourage Customers of size to 
preboard
to locate adequate seating, placing the
Reserved Seat Document
 in the adjacent seat. Our Ground Operations and Inflight Employees 
communicate about special needs Customers, and if a Customer of size needs 
seating assistance,
he/she should ask an Employee for help.
. I'm pregnant, will I have to purchase two seats?
A woman who is pregnant does not occupy two seats if she can lower the 
armrests.
. Can I check in using an E-Ticket Check-In kiosk or online checkin?
Because a Customer of size has special seating needs; is encouraged to 
preboard; and needs specific boarding/seating documents, these Customers are 
required
to check in with a Customer Service Agent at the ticket counter or at the 
gate. A Skycap can assist a Customer of size with baggage and provide an 
escort
to the ticket counter, and a Customer of size wishing to bypass the ticket 
counter may simply print a Security Document online for access through the 
security
checkpoint. At checkin, a Customer of size will receive a boarding pass, 
Reserved Seat Document, Refund Advice Slip, and preboarding direction.
. Isn't this policy discriminatory toward large Customers?
Southwest Airlines does not condone discrimination in any form. We have 
Employees and Customers of all races, ethnicity, religions, shapes, and 
sizes.
Our Mission and our responsibility per our Contract of Carriage is to 
provide safe and comfortable air transportation for each and every Customer. 
This
policy has been upheld in court and is supported by the Department of 
Transportation's stance that the purchase of a single ticket offers the use 
of a
single seat.
list end

Southwest Airlines Policy on Carriage of Assistance Animals
Assistance Animals
Trained Assistance Animals

Southwest Airlines welcomes trained assistance animals on all of our 
flights. In accordance with federal Safety regulations, the animal must be 
positioned so as not to obstruct Customers' expeditious evacuation in the 
unlikely event of an emergency. Except when too large to be safely 
accommodated, a trained assistance animal traveling with and providing 
assistance to a Customer with a disability will be accommodated in the 
aircraft cabin on the floor in front of or next to the Customer with a 
disability.

 There you have it. During my flight I was told that Southwest's Customer of 
Size Policy was an FAA regulation. I checked the FAA's Web Site after 
reading this document and found no FAA regulations that set arm rests as the 
definitive boundary between seats. And no where are any so-called FAA 
policies referenced that readers of this information can examine for 
themselves. While this issue isn't a blindness matter it's one to monitor 
should airlines use these policies to indirectly discriminate against guide 
dog users. I hope that this information will help insure that everyone can 
fly to Dallas and home without encountering this kind of nonsence. Large 
convention attendees be sure to choose your airline wisely to avoid paying 
for two seats and to avoid the other problems I and perhaps some others 
encountered when flying on the likes of Southwest Airlines.

Peter Donahue

"Will you come and awake our lost land from its slumber
      And her fetters we'll break, links that long are encumbered.
      And the air will resound with hosannas to greet you
      On the shore will be found gallant Irishmen to greet you."
Will You Come to the Bower
Traditional Irish Folk Song



From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov  Mon Apr 26 19:48:42 2010
From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 14:48:42 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice
Message-ID: <E771EAA0575B844C98712011AE73D7ED50482BEE35@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov>



From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 11:21 AM
To: jobs at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice



________________________________
From: Ross, Rae N [mailto:raeross at usdoj.gov]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 12:11 PM
To: nedy at wyjlaw.com; newmedia at ja.org; Neysas at dnfsb.gov; Maurer, Patricia; nijc at aol.com; nlove at opd.state.md.us; nmcconnell at jackscamp.com; noconnell at tabinc.org; noryrp at cox.net; nromulus at gmail.com; ntb at boglechang.com; nwpatton at law.stanford.edu; ocaaba at cox.net; omanager at lawyerscomm.org; palsd at hotmail.com; patel at fr.com; pchanster at yahoo.com; pchapman at koonz.com; pgrewal at daycasebeer.com; pkim at lordbissell.com; Maurer, Patricia; pmorrison at state.wv.us; poppy.johnston at unlv.edu; president at abaw.org
Subject: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice




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*  EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION OFFICE OF INTELLIGENCE DEPUTY CHIEF OF LITIGATION SECTION GS-905-15 Applications must be received by the closing date of May 14, 2010. <http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/10-nsd-deputy-litigation.htm>
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Date posted: 04-19-2010


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From dtomblin at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 27 04:51:16 2010
From: dtomblin at hotmail.com (Darren Tomblin)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 00:51:16 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] admission question
Message-ID: <BLU139-DS7347357818871550057C2D4030@phx.gbl>

hi, I have a question about my admission to law school. I believe I was 
denied admission due to my disablity because I have a 136 lsat score and I 
missed 17 on the anaylytical section which I believe is unfair for a blind 
applicant. I was wondering if anyone knew what I could do about his. thanks 
in advance. Darren
73,
Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
dtomblin at hotmail.com
http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/ 



From dricken at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 11:06:27 2010
From: dricken at gmail.com (Kendrick Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:06:27 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] admission question
In-Reply-To: <BLU139-DS7347357818871550057C2D4030@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU139-DS7347357818871550057C2D4030@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <p2o9668861d1004270406q80223cbbmf634349e040776a8@mail.gmail.com>

Darren,

There are other factors that are looked at when law school committees
evaluate applicants. The LSAT, under graduate GPA, personal references
and the personal letter too. In the Constitutional Law class I took my
first year we had a big discussion on the topic of law school
admission. The professor that instructed the class was and is still on
the admissions committee at UM Law School.

The first question you should ask is was your accommodations fulfilled
when you took the LSAT. Second, was it your first time taking the LSAT
and finally, how can you improve your score. There are several blind
law students that have taken the LSAT and done well on the logic
portion of the LSAT. As well there are many sited applicants that do
not get in to law school and they do not do well on the logic portion
of the LSAT.

I think you should retake the LSAT and reapply to law school.



On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Darren Tomblin <dtomblin at hotmail.com> wrote:
> hi, I have a question about my admission to law school. I believe I was
> denied admission due to my disablity because I have a 136 lsat score and I
> missed 17 on the anaylytical section which I believe is unfair for a blind
> applicant. I was wondering if anyone knew what I could do about his. thanks
> in advance. Darren
> 73,
> Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
> dtomblin at hotmail.com
> http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dricken%40gmail.com
>



-- 
Thanks, 2K

Being Blind isn't a right, it's a privilege!

****************************************
Kendrick R. Kennedy, BSBA

Juris Doctor Candidate, 2011
The University of Mississippi,
School of Law


From rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net  Tue Apr 27 23:10:42 2010
From: rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net ( Rob Tabor)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:10:42 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] admission question
References: <BLU139-DS7347357818871550057C2D4030@phx.gbl>
	<p2o9668861d1004270406q80223cbbmf634349e040776a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7D0FC1DF45064531BC3B09E44DE6824B@Rob>

Hello Darren and list.

I agree with Mr. Kennedy that you should retake the LSAT to improve your 
score although I can understand apprehension about getting hit with a second 
round of application fees and the time involved in preparation for a hurtle 
you had hoped to have jumped by now. I also agree that the accommodations 
made available to you may not have been adequate to aid your performance on 
the exam. Poor reading can really trip a person up badly, so I would commend 
you to advocate with the test center to allow you to bring a reader of your 
choosing. If the manager of the testing facility is worried about you 
picking a reader that knows enough to help you, there are two arguments you 
can offer as rebuttal. First, the test room is proctored even if you are in 
a separate testing room which is also standard procedure to avoid 
distracting other test candidates with necessary conversation between you 
and your reader. In fact I would diplomaticly mention that test room 
monitoring in your situation is even closer because the proctor is only 
observing you and your reader as opposed to watching and listening to 100 
examinees. Secondly, you can offer to provide a notarized affidavit 
declaring the person you have hired to read for you is not an attorney or 
otherwise legally trained, together with  any other assurances the test 
center director feels is important. Another alternative is to ask if 
computerized test-taking is available with appropriate assistive technology.

Secondly, I suspect a retake could help improve your test score in that you 
have experienced the types of questions being asked and now know what to 
expect. No doubt performance anxiety can also impair good performance on 
standardized academic tests including the LSAT. I sincerely wish you good 
luck and keep us posted.

Best regards
Rob Tabor


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kendrick Kennedy" <dricken at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] admission question


> Darren,
>
> There are other factors that are looked at when law school committees
> evaluate applicants. The LSAT, under graduate GPA, personal references
> and the personal letter too. In the Constitutional Law class I took my
> first year we had a big discussion on the topic of law school
> admission. The professor that instructed the class was and is still on
> the admissions committee at UM Law School.
>
> The first question you should ask is was your accommodations fulfilled
> when you took the LSAT. Second, was it your first time taking the LSAT
> and finally, how can you improve your score. There are several blind
> law students that have taken the LSAT and done well on the logic
> portion of the LSAT. As well there are many sited applicants that do
> not get in to law school and they do not do well on the logic portion
> of the LSAT.
>
> I think you should retake the LSAT and reapply to law school.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Darren Tomblin <dtomblin at hotmail.com> 
> wrote:
>> hi, I have a question about my admission to law school. I believe I was
>> denied admission due to my disablity because I have a 136 lsat score and 
>> I
>> missed 17 on the anaylytical section which I believe is unfair for a 
>> blind
>> applicant. I was wondering if anyone knew what I could do about his. 
>> thanks
>> in advance. Darren
>> 73,
>> Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
>> dtomblin at hotmail.com
>> http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dricken%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Thanks, 2K
>
> Being Blind isn't a right, it's a privilege!
>
> ****************************************
> Kendrick R. Kennedy, BSBA
>
> Juris Doctor Candidate, 2011
> The University of Mississippi,
> School of Law
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglobal.net 



From joramsey at cox.net  Wed Apr 28 05:25:07 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 01:25:07 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] admission question
In-Reply-To: <7D0FC1DF45064531BC3B09E44DE6824B@Rob>
Message-ID: <6E76D7667B02451D89F277DF675990F3@noneeb869fea9a>

Hello List,
This issue comes up each and every year on the list and is discussed at
nauseum. The LSAC cannot read your mind and they are only going to grant you
the accommodations that you ask for. Whether or not those accommodations are
adequate is solely up to the applicant. Doing one's research on the front
end is essential to receiving appropriate accommodations.
Secondly, the idea that retaking the test is somehow beneficial is really a
misnomer in most instances because the majority of law schools average your
scores. Finally, there is always the option that if you feel like you did
not perform well on the test you can cancel your score before even leaving
the center.
Cordially,
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this communication in
error, please call us at (352) 505-6642 and destroy any associated printed
materials and delete the electronic material from any computer. Please be
aware that any unauthorized disclosure, use or publication of this
communication or the information it contains may result in criminal and/or
civil liability. Due to this message being transmitted over the Internet,
John Ramsey cannot assure that the messages are secure.  If you are
uncomfortable with such risks, you may decide not to use email to
communicate with John Ramsey.  Please contact us immediately at (352)
505-6642 if you decide not to use email.  You must also be aware that email
messages may be delayed or undelivered through circumstances beyond our
control.  Thank you.  

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Rob Tabor
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 7:11 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] admission question


Hello Darren and list.

I agree with Mr. Kennedy that you should retake the LSAT to improve your 
score although I can understand apprehension about getting hit with a second

round of application fees and the time involved in preparation for a hurtle 
you had hoped to have jumped by now. I also agree that the accommodations 
made available to you may not have been adequate to aid your performance on 
the exam. Poor reading can really trip a person up badly, so I would commend

you to advocate with the test center to allow you to bring a reader of your 
choosing. If the manager of the testing facility is worried about you 
picking a reader that knows enough to help you, there are two arguments you 
can offer as rebuttal. First, the test room is proctored even if you are in 
a separate testing room which is also standard procedure to avoid 
distracting other test candidates with necessary conversation between you 
and your reader. In fact I would diplomaticly mention that test room 
monitoring in your situation is even closer because the proctor is only 
observing you and your reader as opposed to watching and listening to 100 
examinees. Secondly, you can offer to provide a notarized affidavit 
declaring the person you have hired to read for you is not an attorney or 
otherwise legally trained, together with  any other assurances the test 
center director feels is important. Another alternative is to ask if 
computerized test-taking is available with appropriate assistive technology.

Secondly, I suspect a retake could help improve your test score in that you 
have experienced the types of questions being asked and now know what to 
expect. No doubt performance anxiety can also impair good performance on 
standardized academic tests including the LSAT. I sincerely wish you good 
luck and keep us posted.

Best regards
Rob Tabor


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kendrick Kennedy" <dricken at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] admission question


> Darren,
>
> There are other factors that are looked at when law school committees 
> evaluate applicants. The LSAT, under graduate GPA, personal references 
> and the personal letter too. In the Constitutional Law class I took my 
> first year we had a big discussion on the topic of law school 
> admission. The professor that instructed the class was and is still on 
> the admissions committee at UM Law School.
>
> The first question you should ask is was your accommodations fulfilled 
> when you took the LSAT. Second, was it your first time taking the LSAT 
> and finally, how can you improve your score. There are several blind 
> law students that have taken the LSAT and done well on the logic 
> portion of the LSAT. As well there are many sited applicants that do 
> not get in to law school and they do not do well on the logic portion 
> of the LSAT.
>
> I think you should retake the LSAT and reapply to law school.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Darren Tomblin 
> <dtomblin at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> hi, I have a question about my admission to law school. I believe I 
>> was denied admission due to my disablity because I have a 136 lsat 
>> score and I missed 17 on the anaylytical section which I believe is 
>> unfair for a blind
>> applicant. I was wondering if anyone knew what I could do about his. 
>> thanks
>> in advance. Darren
>> 73,
>> Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
>> dtomblin at hotmail.com
>> http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw: 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dricken%40g
>> mail.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks, 2K
>
> Being Blind isn't a right, it's a privilege!
>
> ****************************************
> Kendrick R. Kennedy, BSBA
>
> Juris Doctor Candidate, 2011
> The University of Mississippi,
> School of Law
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglo
bal.net 


_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net



From dtomblin at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 30 05:06:29 2010
From: dtomblin at hotmail.com (Darren Tomblin)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 01:06:29 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] analytical section
Message-ID: <BLU139-DS50333C0993A444E608A37D4000@phx.gbl>

hi, I was wondering if anyone could give me some ideas on how to make the 
analytical section of the lsat workable. Did the lawyer working on the lsac 
case consider doing anything about this section. I think its unfair for 
blind people. thanks
73,
Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
dtomblin at hotmail.com
http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/ 



From lists at zufelt.ca  Fri Apr 30 05:30:03 2010
From: lists at zufelt.ca (E.J. Zufelt)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 01:30:03 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] analytical section
In-Reply-To: <BLU139-DS50333C0993A444E608A37D4000@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU139-DS50333C0993A444E608A37D4000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <491314D9-70FE-4FB9-B8FC-95BB73655812@zufelt.ca>

Good evening Darren,

I was permitted to use a laptop to make notes on all sections of the LSAT.  While I worked through sample LSAT questions with a reader I developed my own method of diagraming in order to help me solve the answers to questions.

HTH,
Everett Zufelt
http://zufelt.ca

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt



On 2010-04-30, at 1:06 AM, Darren Tomblin wrote:

> hi, I was wondering if anyone could give me some ideas on how to make the analytical section of the lsat workable. Did the lawyer working on the lsac case consider doing anything about this section. I think its unfair for blind people. thanks
> 73,
> Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
> dtomblin at hotmail.com
> http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/ 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/lists%40zufelt.ca


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Fri Apr 30 10:08:22 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 03:08:22 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] analytical section
In-Reply-To: <BLU139-DS50333C0993A444E608A37D4000@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU139-DS50333C0993A444E608A37D4000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <EA6B93477D554D5484A98C87AA6BEBCC@spike>

Does the fairness argument really carry wait regarding the competence of a 
blind legal professional practicing in the field? What happened to the 
ability to adapt and be prepared as a blind law student lawyer or other 
legal professional?
Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Darren Tomblin" <dtomblin at hotmail.com>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:06 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] analytical section


> hi, I was wondering if anyone could give me some ideas on how to make the 
> analytical section of the lsat workable. Did the lawyer working on the 
> lsac case consider doing anything about this section. I think its unfair 
> for blind people. thanks
> 73,
> Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
> dtomblin at hotmail.com
> http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com  Fri Apr 30 11:04:03 2010
From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:04:03 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] analytical section
In-Reply-To: <EA6B93477D554D5484A98C87AA6BEBCC@spike>
References: <BLU139-DS50333C0993A444E608A37D4000@phx.gbl>
	<EA6B93477D554D5484A98C87AA6BEBCC@spike>
Message-ID: <B87F7C375FF343F3BBFB6A51F2F83A54@StevePC>

I want the best attorney I can afford regardless of fairness!  If I'm hiring 
an attorney, I could care less about fairness.

Steve
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] analytical section


> Does the fairness argument really carry wait regarding the competence of a
> blind legal professional practicing in the field? What happened to the
> ability to adapt and be prepared as a blind law student lawyer or other
> legal professional?
> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
> 1237 P Street
> Fresno ca 93721
> 559-266-9237
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Darren Tomblin" <dtomblin at hotmail.com>
> To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:06 PM
> Subject: [blindlaw] analytical section
>
>
>> hi, I was wondering if anyone could give me some ideas on how to make the
>> analytical section of the lsat workable. Did the lawyer working on the
>> lsac case consider doing anything about this section. I think its unfair
>> for blind people. thanks
>> 73,
>> Darren Tomblin (KC9JJJ)
>> dtomblin at hotmail.com
>> http://www.facebook.com/Darren.kc9jjj/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From tom at tomladis.com  Fri Apr 30 14:13:52 2010
From: tom at tomladis.com (Tom Ladis)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:13:52 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT Accommodations
Message-ID: <2B296C283D394A2A81DBAAA00F334B0A@TMLDELLLAPTOP1>

Hello all.  I am new to the list and just preparing to take the LSAT and a 
prep class at Kaplan.  Has anyone on the list been able to take the test in 
a digital format with JAWS screen reader or similar technology?  I do not 
read Braille yet, and feel that the reader and scribe method of taking the 
test does not level the playing field, leaving the test taker to interact 
with someone while they should be focused on the test and getting into their 
zone during the test.

Thanks,
Tom 



From cathrynisfinally at verizon.net  Fri Apr 30 14:42:18 2010
From: cathrynisfinally at verizon.net (Cathryn Bonnette)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 10:42:18 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT
Message-ID: <09189708FA5D4854B1A5625B8DFFE44F@14bd0130080a469>

In response to Tom-

 

I don't believe the LSAT takers are permitted to use JAWS. The answer sheet
needs to be completed by a scribe to fill in the computerized form properly.
When I took the test, the person who read questions to me filled in the form
also. There was no other interaction during the test except for reading the
questions out loud.   Regulations were extremely rigid.  For example, I was
granted double time due to disability, but I forgot to request extra breaks
due to extended hours of examination, and thus breaks were denied by the
testing service! Unless they have drastically changed their approach, you
will get farther in demanding a qualified reader for the exam.  My reader
was a practicing attorney, competent to handle the material.

Perhaps others have had different experiences, but that was mine. Feel free
to contact me off list if you wish.

 

 

Cathryn


From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net  Fri Apr 30 14:58:26 2010
From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:58:26 -0700
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT
In-Reply-To: <09189708FA5D4854B1A5625B8DFFE44F@14bd0130080a469>
References: <09189708FA5D4854B1A5625B8DFFE44F@14bd0130080a469>
Message-ID: <860AE4E0ACF14B698530747BA9A551D5@spike>

When I took it years ago I took it as a culmination of an LSAT prep course 
offered at Grand Valley State in Michigan and at that time they let my mom 
read the test. Not sure if the LSAC would have approved of it but at that 
time that was how the instructor handled it.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 7:42 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT


> In response to Tom-
>
>
>
> I don't believe the LSAT takers are permitted to use JAWS. The answer 
> sheet
> needs to be completed by a scribe to fill in the computerized form 
> properly.
> When I took the test, the person who read questions to me filled in the 
> form
> also. There was no other interaction during the test except for reading 
> the
> questions out loud.   Regulations were extremely rigid.  For example, I 
> was
> granted double time due to disability, but I forgot to request extra 
> breaks
> due to extended hours of examination, and thus breaks were denied by the
> testing service! Unless they have drastically changed their approach, you
> will get farther in demanding a qualified reader for the exam.  My reader
> was a practicing attorney, competent to handle the material.
>
> Perhaps others have had different experiences, but that was mine. Feel 
> free
> to contact me off list if you wish.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cathryn
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net 



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Fri Apr 30 15:31:38 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:31:38 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT
In-Reply-To: <09189708FA5D4854B1A5625B8DFFE44F@14bd0130080a469>
References: <09189708FA5D4854B1A5625B8DFFE44F@14bd0130080a469>
Message-ID: <FFD8684309014D498A26213327CC27F5@Rufus>

Hello Cathryn and all,

Is double time the norm?  I thought time and a half was already pushing it
in light of the trouble I had with some of the other accommodations.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cathryn Bonnette
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 10:42 AM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT

In response to Tom-

 

I don't believe the LSAT takers are permitted to use JAWS. The 
answer sheet
needs to be completed by a scribe to fill in the computerized 
form properly.
When I took the test, the person who read questions to me 
filled in the form
also. There was no other interaction during the test except for 
reading the
questions out loud.   Regulations were extremely rigid.  For 
example, I was
granted double time due to disability, but I forgot to request 
extra breaks
due to extended hours of examination, and thus breaks were denied by the
testing service! Unless they have drastically changed their 
approach, you
will get farther in demanding a qualified reader for the exam.  
My reader
was a practicing attorney, competent to handle the material.

Perhaps others have had different experiences, but that was 
mine. Feel free
to contact me off list if you wish.

 

 

Cathryn

_______________________________________________
blindlaw mailing list
blindlaw at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for blindlaw:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
co%40gmail.com
 

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virus signature database 5073 (20100429) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5073 (20100429) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From lilrichie411 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 30 18:46:50 2010
From: lilrichie411 at gmail.com (Jordan Richardson)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 13:46:50 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] Introduction
Message-ID: <s2kca301f5e1004301146x8d5acbt46d78b27e8e24932@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

My name is Jordan Richardson and I am currently a freshman at the
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities majoring in political science and
planning to minor in philosophy.

After my undergraduate degree I plan to attend law school specializing
in Constitutional law.  My plan is to practice law and then become a
judge.

I actually have some questions regarding blind judges:

What non-visual techniques would a blind judge use on the bench during
a trial? How would one deal with looking at evidence?  Would the
bailiff describe/read any pictures/texts, or would you simply have
each attorney be descriptive?

Thank you,
Jordan Richardson
2nd Vice President, Minnesota Association of Blind Students

-- 
Jordan Richardson
2nd Vice President, Minnesota Association of Blind Students
lilrichie411 at gmail.com
“It is very important to generate a good attitude, a good heart, as
much as possible. From this, happiness in both the short term and the
long term for both yourself and others will come.”
--Dalai Lama


From tom at tomladis.com  Fri Apr 30 20:15:03 2010
From: tom at tomladis.com (Tom Ladis)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 15:15:03 -0500
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT
References: <09189708FA5D4854B1A5625B8DFFE44F@14bd0130080a469>
Message-ID: <880414F1285B4040A9E05ACE331D84EA@TMLDELLLAPTOP1>

Thank you.  LSAC makes getting appropriate accommodations very hard.  I have 
heard stories similar to yours, and was told by a contact at LSAC to state 
exactly what I want because if it is not listed I will definitely not get 
it.  They were also not willing to discuss computer based testing and what 
might be appropriate for blind test takers.  Some people have suggested that 
I ask for the test in an electronic format in addition to double time, more 
breaks, and Word to take notes for the Logic Games.  This may cause the need 
to appeal, but may get things that should be available to everybody.  It 
doesn't seem right that every blind person trying to take the test should go 
through these same hoops, over and over again.  It also doesn't seem like a 
level playing field when blind people need to take the test in a manner that 
introduces an additional distraction and more stress.



Tom
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 9:42 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT


> In response to Tom-
>
>
>
> I don't believe the LSAT takers are permitted to use JAWS. The answer 
> sheet
> needs to be completed by a scribe to fill in the computerized form 
> properly.
> When I took the test, the person who read questions to me filled in the 
> form
> also. There was no other interaction during the test except for reading 
> the
> questions out loud.   Regulations were extremely rigid.  For example, I 
> was
> granted double time due to disability, but I forgot to request extra 
> breaks
> due to extended hours of examination, and thus breaks were denied by the
> testing service! Unless they have drastically changed their approach, you
> will get farther in demanding a qualified reader for the exam.  My reader
> was a practicing attorney, competent to handle the material.
>
> Perhaps others have had different experiences, but that was mine. Feel 
> free
> to contact me off list if you wish.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cathryn
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> blindlaw:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com
> 



From joramsey at cox.net  Fri Apr 30 23:28:26 2010
From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:28:26 -0400
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT
In-Reply-To: <880414F1285B4040A9E05ACE331D84EA@TMLDELLLAPTOP1>
Message-ID: <2FC1DDB64A1D4DBF93216B2DCE35ECDF@noneeb869fea9a>

Hi Tom,
While your concerns are valid, each test and each blind test taker are
different and as I have stated time and again, the examiners do not read our
minds, so if you don't ask, they are not obligated to deliver. Test
preparation is paramount when applying for law school.
John

John A. Ramsey Jr., P.A.

P.O. Box 6063

Gainesville, FL 32627   

Phone: (352) 505-6642

Fax: (352) 240-6453

This communication contains information that may be confidential and/or
legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual or
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-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Ladis
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 4:15 PM
To: cathrynisfinally at verizon.net; NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT


Thank you.  LSAC makes getting appropriate accommodations very hard.  I have

heard stories similar to yours, and was told by a contact at LSAC to state 
exactly what I want because if it is not listed I will definitely not get 
it.  They were also not willing to discuss computer based testing and what 
might be appropriate for blind test takers.  Some people have suggested that

I ask for the test in an electronic format in addition to double time, more 
breaks, and Word to take notes for the Logic Games.  This may cause the need

to appeal, but may get things that should be available to everybody.  It 
doesn't seem right that every blind person trying to take the test should go

through these same hoops, over and over again.  It also doesn't seem like a 
level playing field when blind people need to take the test in a manner that

introduces an additional distraction and more stress.



Tom
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 9:42 AM
Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT


> In response to Tom-
>
>
>
> I don't believe the LSAT takers are permitted to use JAWS. The answer
> sheet
> needs to be completed by a scribe to fill in the computerized form 
> properly.
> When I took the test, the person who read questions to me filled in the 
> form
> also. There was no other interaction during the test except for reading 
> the
> questions out loud.   Regulations were extremely rigid.  For example, I 
> was
> granted double time due to disability, but I forgot to request extra 
> breaks
> due to extended hours of examination, and thus breaks were denied by the
> testing service! Unless they have drastically changed their approach, you
> will get farther in demanding a qualified reader for the exam.  My reader
> was a practicing attorney, competent to handle the material.
>
> Perhaps others have had different experiences, but that was mine. Feel
> free
> to contact me off list if you wish.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cathryn
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindlaw mailing list
> blindlaw at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindlaw:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/tom%40tomladis.com
> 


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