From dandrews at visi.com Mon Nov 1 02:08:35 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:08:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's In-Reply-To: <444930.12274.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <444930.12274.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If the PDF does contain a scanned document, pasting into Word will do no good, because it is an image of a page. OCR must be done on the PDF, or the PDF would have to be printed to paper then run through optical character recognition, OCR. Dave At 11:23 AM 10/26/2010, you wrote: >I was wondering if anyone has come across my problem. Sometimes, >documents are scanned into a PDF. When they are open, JAWS says that >it's an empty document because, to JAWS, the scanned document is an >image and therefore is treated as if it doesn't exist. Short of >printing out the entire document (which can be very time-consuming >and wasteful of paper if the document is rather long), is there any >way to work around this problem? I thought of copying and pasting >the entire document into a Word document so JAWS can read it. This >works except when the PDF has been made secure and therefore cannot >be copied and pasted. David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From dandrews at visi.com Mon Nov 1 02:10:48 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:10:48 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] stores for the blind in the D.C. Metro area? In-Reply-To: <500085.18212.qm@web112408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <500085.18212.qm@web112408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You can get a free cane from the nfb, go to www.nfb.org Dave At 09:06 PM 10/30/2010, you wrote: >Hi everybody, > >I know this is slightly off topic but I couldn't think of anywhere >else to turn (google didn't help.) I was wondering where those of >you who reside in D.C./northern Virginia purchase your canes. Is >there a store for the blind that sells canes, braille paper, etc. >for the blind close by? > >Thanks. David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us Mon Nov 1 12:41:50 2010 From: david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us (Hyde, David W. (ESC)) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 07:41:50 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's In-Reply-To: References: <444930.12274.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233736F7F1A65@tiger> Hi David. You're right, but you can use the conversion engine built into MS Word. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:09 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's If the PDF does contain a scanned document, pasting into Word will do no good, because it is an image of a page. OCR must be done on the PDF, or the PDF would have to be printed to paper then run through optical character recognition, OCR. Dave At 11:23 AM 10/26/2010, you wrote: >I was wondering if anyone has come across my problem. Sometimes, >documents are scanned into a PDF. When they are open, JAWS says that >it's an empty document because, to JAWS, the scanned document is an >image and therefore is treated as if it doesn't exist. Short of >printing out the entire document (which can be very time-consuming and >wasteful of paper if the document is rather long), is there any way to >work around this problem? I thought of copying and pasting the entire >document into a Word document so JAWS can read it. This works except >when the PDF has been made secure and therefore cannot be copied and >pasted. David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us From stiehm.law at juno.com Mon Nov 1 14:35:53 2010 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H Stiehm) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 10:35:53 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] stores for the blind in the D.C. Metro area? Message-ID: <20101101.103554.4472.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Try the Virginia Department for the Blind. I think that their regional office for Northern Virginia is in Fairfax. I don't think they sell canes but they can probably tell you the closest place to go to get one. Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, Virginia 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) Email address: stiehm.law at verizon.net On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Mike Gilmore writes: > Hi everybody, > > I know this is slightly off topic but I couldn't think of anywhere > else to turn (google didn't help.) I was wondering where those of > you who reside in D.C./northern Virginia purchase your canes. Is > there a store for the blind that sells canes, braille paper, etc. > for the blind close by? > > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, Virginia 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) Email address: stiehm.law at verizon.net ____________________________________________________________ Globe Life Insurance $1* Buys $50,000 Life Insurance. Adults or Children. No Medical Exam. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4cced09066b114c72m04vuc From steve.jacobson at visi.com Mon Nov 1 13:26:56 2010 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 08:26:56 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's In-Reply-To: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233736F7F1A65@tiger> Message-ID: I don't remember the details, but the conversion is only in certain versions of word as I understand it so won't work in all cases. If you have the conversion engine, you are right. As far as I can determine, the versions of Word I have do not have it. Do you know which versions do? Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 07:41:50 -0500, Hyde, David W. (ESC) wrote: >Hi David. You're right, but you can use the conversion engine built into MS Word. >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews >Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:09 PM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's >If the PDF does contain a scanned document, pasting into Word will do no good, because it is an image of a page. OCR must be done on the PDF, or the PDF would have to be printed to paper then run through optical character recognition, OCR. >Dave >At 11:23 AM 10/26/2010, you wrote: >>I was wondering if anyone has come across my problem. Sometimes, >>documents are scanned into a PDF. When they are open, JAWS says that >>it's an empty document because, to JAWS, the scanned document is an >>image and therefore is treated as if it doesn't exist. Short of >>printing out the entire document (which can be very time-consuming and >>wasteful of paper if the document is rather long), is there any way to >>work around this problem? I thought of copying and pasting the entire >>document into a Word document so JAWS can read it. This works except >>when the PDF has been made secure and therefore cannot be copied and >>pasted. > David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us Mon Nov 1 15:16:19 2010 From: david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us (Hyde, David W. (ESC)) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 10:16:19 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's In-Reply-To: References: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233736F7F1A65@tiger> Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233736F7F1A70@tiger> I'm still using 2003. The conversion is under Microsoft office tools. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:27 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's I don't remember the details, but the conversion is only in certain versions of word as I understand it so won't work in all cases. If you have the conversion engine, you are right. As far as I can determine, the versions of Word I have do not have it. Do you know which versions do? Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 07:41:50 -0500, Hyde, David W. (ESC) wrote: >Hi David. You're right, but you can use the conversion engine built into MS Word. >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >On Behalf Of David Andrews >Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:09 PM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's >If the PDF does contain a scanned document, pasting into Word will do >no good, because it is an image of a page. OCR must be done on the >PDF, or the PDF would have to be printed to paper then run through optical character recognition, OCR. >Dave >At 11:23 AM 10/26/2010, you wrote: >>I was wondering if anyone has come across my problem. Sometimes, >>documents are scanned into a PDF. When they are open, JAWS says that >>it's an empty document because, to JAWS, the scanned document is an >>image and therefore is treated as if it doesn't exist. Short of >>printing out the entire document (which can be very time-consuming and >>wasteful of paper if the document is rather long), is there any way to >>work around this problem? I thought of copying and pasting the entire >>document into a Word document so JAWS can read it. This works except >>when the PDF has been made secure and therefore cannot be copied and >>pasted. > David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on > Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40 >wcbvi.k12.wi.us >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso >n%40visi.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us From LRovig at nfb.org Tue Nov 2 00:45:52 2010 From: LRovig at nfb.org (Rovig, Lorraine) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 19:45:52 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? Message-ID: NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND - The NFB Scholarship Program application is now available online. This national scholarship program is available solely to persons who are legally blind and living in the United States or Puerto Rico. There are 30 awards, from $12,000 to $3,000. In addition, each winner will be assisted to attend the NFB Annual Convention for 2011 in Orlando, Florida. The annual contest begins the first week of November 2010; all documents required from the applicants must be postmarked by the March 31, 2011, deadline. Applications and full details are available online at www.nfb.org/scholarships. Questions may be emailed to scholarships at nfb.org. Cordially, Chairperson Patti Chang, Esq. NFB Scholarship Committee NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, MD 21230 at Jernigan Place Office: (410) 659-9314, x2415; E-mail: scholarships at nfb.org; Website: www.nfb.org/scholarships __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5583 (20101101) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 2 01:19:10 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 19:19:10 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? References: Message-ID: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> can I ask why the scholarship program isn't open to North American blind people instead of just United states? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rovig, Lorraine (by way of David Andrews )" To: Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:45 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND - The NFB Scholarship Program application is now available online. This national scholarship program is available solely to persons who are legally blind and living in the United States or Puerto Rico. There are 30 awards, from $12,000 to $3,000. In addition, each winner will be assisted to attend the NFB Annual Convention for 2011 in Orlando, Florida. The annual contest begins the first week of November 2010; all documents required from the applicants must be postmarked by the March 31, 2011, deadline. Applications and full details are available online at www.nfb.org/scholarships. Questions may be emailed to scholarships at nfb.org. Cordially, Chairperson Patti Chang, Esq. NFB Scholarship Committee NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, MD 21230 at Jernigan Place Office: (410) 659-9314, x2415; E-mail: scholarships at nfb.org; Website: www.nfb.org/scholarships __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5583 (20101101) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us Tue Nov 2 13:02:49 2010 From: david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us (Hyde, David W. (ESC)) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 08:02:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? In-Reply-To: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> References: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233736F7F1A79@tiger> Because the organization is a United States organization, as opposed to one in Canada or Mexico. The idea is that those who apply will go to college in and continue to live in the United States. Although I'm sure the N.F.B. would like to help the entire world, and do what we can through international organizations, it is beyond our ability to do it. If you are in Canada, you should check organizations there to find available scholarships. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:19 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? can I ask why the scholarship program isn't open to North American blind people instead of just United states? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rovig, Lorraine (by way of David Andrews )" To: Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:45 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND - The NFB Scholarship Program application is now available online. This national scholarship program is available solely to persons who are legally blind and living in the United States or Puerto Rico. There are 30 awards, from $12,000 to $3,000. In addition, each winner will be assisted to attend the NFB Annual Convention for 2011 in Orlando, Florida. The annual contest begins the first week of November 2010; all documents required from the applicants must be postmarked by the March 31, 2011, deadline. Applications and full details are available online at www.nfb.org/scholarships. Questions may be emailed to scholarships at nfb.org. Cordially, Chairperson Patti Chang, Esq. NFB Scholarship Committee NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, MD 21230 at Jernigan Place Office: (410) 659-9314, x2415; E-mail: scholarships at nfb.org; Website: www.nfb.org/scholarships __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5583 (20101101) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us From awebb2168 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 2 21:33:02 2010 From: awebb2168 at hotmail.com (Andrew Webb) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 14:33:02 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind solo practitioners? Message-ID: Hello - I recently took the California Bar Exam, and while I'm still waiting on the results, I'm trying to do as much "market research" as I can in order to appreciate the realities of practice for blind lawyers. I've spoken to a number of blind attorneys who work in government, which seems to be a very popular choice. On the other hand, it appears to me that very, very few blind attorneys are employed at large firms. What I'm wondering at this point is whether there are many blind attorneys who practice either solo or n small firms. It seems to me that I have seen some postings on this list by sole practitioners, but I am not personally acquainted with anyone meeting that description. If any of you on this list practices solo or in a small office, and would be willing to discuss with me your impressions and experiences, I'd be most interested to hear from you. I'm especially keen to hear about any particular advantages or drawbacks to working blind in this sort of practice, as well as "tricks of the trade" that you employ to get your work done. If you're willing to discuss, please send me a message offline at awebb2168 at hotmail.com. Thanks very much. Andrew Webb From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Thu Nov 4 23:25:18 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 18:25:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 12:24 PM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue (JMD) [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 3:19 PM To: 'nwright at lockelord.com'; 'ocaaba at cox.net'; 'omanager at lawyerscomm.org'; 'padilla at ailc-inc.org'; 'palsd at hotmail.com'; 'patel at fr.com'; 'pchanster at yahoo.com'; 'pchapman at koonz.com'; 'petricha at staff.abanet.org'; 'pgodar at fbtlaw.com'; 'pgrewal at daycasebeer.com'; Maurer, Patricia; 'pmorrison at state.wv.us'; 'poppy.johnston at unlv.edu'; 'president at abaw.org'; 'president at adc.org'; 'president at apaba-dc.org'; 'president at apabala.org'; 'president at blackwomenlawyersla.org'; 'president at dominicanbarassociation.org'; 'president at mabl.org'; 'president at msba.org'; 'president at phillybarrister.org'; 'president at sabadc.org' Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies * U.S.DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF CHIEF COUNSEL DIVERSION AND REGULATORY LITIGATION SECTION EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY / GS 12 to 15 Announcement is open until filled. Date posted: 11-01-2010 * EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEYS UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION COUNTERESPIONAGE SECTION Positon open until filled. Date posted: 10-29-2010 * FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS OFFICE OF GENERAL COUNSEL LABOR LAW BRANCH ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL GS-905-15 This position is open until filled, but no later than November 5, 2010. Date posted: 10-29-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF ALABAMA TERM APPOINTMENT NOT TO EXCEED 14 MONTHS ANNOUNCEMENT NO: 11-MDAL-01 Applications must be received in U.S. Attorney's Office by 5:00 P. M. CST on November 5, 2010. Date posted: 10-29-2010 * DEPUTY COUNSEL EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW FALLS CHURCH, VA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-11-0043 APPLICATIONS RECEIVED AFTER 11/12/10 WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED. Date posted: 10-29-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS VACANCY NUMBER: 10-EDAR-04 POSTED 10/29/10 All applications must be postmarked by November 12, 2010. Date posted: 10-29-2010 * BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES OFFICE OF THE CHIEF COUNSEL, ADMINISTRATION AND ETHICS DIVISION ATTORNEY ADVISOR(S), GS-905-15 WASHINGTON, DC Applications must be received by November 15, 2010, the closing date of this announcement. Date posted: 10-28-2010 * BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES OFFICE OF THE CHIEF COUNSEL, ADMINISTRATION AND ETHICS DIVISION ATTORNEY (S), GS-905-12/13/14 WASHINGTON, DC Applications must be received by November 15, 2010, the closing date of this announcement. Date posted: 10-28-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 11-SDFL-AUSA-01 Announcement is open until filled. Date posted: 10-28-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON SEATTLE, WASHINGTON VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT: 10-WDWA-AUSA-12 (CRIMINAL) Applications will be accepted through November 2, 2010. Date posted: 10-26-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA ANNOUNCEMENT # 10-WDLA-02 Position is open until filled; however, there will be an initial closing date of 5:00 p.m., CST, November 2, 2010. Date posted: 10-26-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 11-SDTX-02 (AUSA - TERM APPT) The position is open until filled. The initial cutoff date for receipt of applications is November 5, 2010. Date posted: 10-25-2010 * HEADQUARTERS REGIONAL DIRECTOR FOR LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN, GS-905-14/15 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION OFFICE OF OVERSEAS PROSECUTORIAL DEVELOPMENT, ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING WASHINGTON, D.C.11-CRM-OPDAT-001 Applications will be accepted until November 12, 2010. Date posted: 10-25-2010 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS OFFICE OF LEGAL AND VICTIM PROGRAMS (OLVP) SUPERVISORY ATTORNEY ADVISOR, GS-0905-15 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO: 11-EOUSA-001 Application materials must be received by 11:59 p.m. (Eastern Standard Time) on the closing date November 26, 2010. Date posted: 10-25-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT #11-EDTN-AUSA-01 Applications must be received by Friday, November 5, 2010. Date posted: 10-21-2010 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE U.S. TRUSTEE'S OFFICE -- RIVERSIDE, CA TRIAL ATTORNEY VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT #RS 10-004 Applications must be postmarked by the closing date of November 10, 2010 and will be accepted up to five calendar days after the closing date. Date posted: 10-21-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 10-SDCA-07 Application materials must be postmarked by the deadline date of November 3, 2010. Date posted: 10-20-2010 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 22:35:10 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 15:35:10 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? In-Reply-To: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> References: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: The NFB only functions in the U.S. It does not have affiliates in other north American countries. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? > can I ask why the scholarship program isn't open to North American blind > people instead of just United states? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rovig, Lorraine (by way of David Andrews )" > > To: > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:45 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? > > > > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND - The NFB Scholarship Program > application is now available online. This national scholarship > program is available solely to persons who are legally blind and > living in the United States or Puerto Rico. There are 30 awards, > from $12,000 to $3,000. In addition, each winner will be assisted to > attend the NFB Annual Convention for 2011 in Orlando, Florida. The > annual contest begins the first week of November 2010; all documents > required from the applicants must be postmarked by the March 31, > 2011, deadline. Applications and full details are available online > at > www.nfb.org/scholarships. Questions > may be emailed to scholarships at nfb.org. > Cordially, > > Chairperson Patti Chang, Esq. > NFB Scholarship Committee > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND > 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, MD 21230 > at Jernigan Place > Office: (410) 659-9314, x2415; > E-mail: scholarships at nfb.org; > Website: www.nfb.org/scholarships > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature database 5583 (20101101) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From sbg at sbgaal.com Mon Nov 8 19:32:21 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 13:32:21 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Message-ID: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop> Dear Group: Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track of potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same information available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 Min. to 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so we get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time listening to responses from the State's voir dire. Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. Thanks, Shannon Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Mon Nov 8 19:36:31 2010 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:36:31 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop> References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop> Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: 'Front Desk' Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Dear Group: Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track of potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same information available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 Min. to 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so we get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time listening to responses from the State's voir dire. Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. Thanks, Shannon Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov From sbg at sbgaal.com Mon Nov 8 19:50:39 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 13:50:39 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop> <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Message-ID: I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able to reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror Thanks, Shannon Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Susan Kelly Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Front Desk Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: 'Front Desk' Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Dear Group: Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track of potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same information available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 Min. to 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so we get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time listening to responses from the State's voir dire. Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. Thanks, Shannon Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 19:57:34 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:57:34 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Message-ID: Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings when you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to during the process. HTH Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able to > reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. > It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could > push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror > Thanks, > > Shannon > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Susan Kelly > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Front Desk > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still > correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the > availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one > with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, > it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to > have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential > jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone > that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler > Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: 'Front Desk' > Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Dear Group: > > > > Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track > of > potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel > > > > Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each > square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same > information > available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 > Min. to > 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so > we > get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time > listening to responses from the State's voir dire. > > > > Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Shannon Geihsler > > > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From sbg at sbgaal.com Mon Nov 8 20:29:03 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 14:29:03 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Message-ID: <819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> I do use a llaptop; doing a find is a little slow when you are speaking at the same time. I was unaware that the I-phone had accessibility. Does Jaws work with it or an I-Pad? I have also heard of a new program where a sighted person can take notes and point to a specific note taken and then touch it and it plays back the audio of what was said when that note was taken. This is what I think could be used to have an electronic chart. How can an I phone be used? Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:58 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings when you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to during the process. HTH Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able to > reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. > It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could > push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror > Thanks, > > Shannon > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Susan Kelly > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Front Desk > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still > correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the > availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one > with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, > it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to > have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential > jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone > that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler > Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: 'Front Desk' > Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Dear Group: > > > > Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track > of > potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel > > > > Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each > square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same > information > available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 > Min. to > 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so > we > get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time > listening to responses from the State's voir dire. > > > > Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Shannon Geihsler > > > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us Mon Nov 8 20:36:30 2010 From: david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us (Hyde, David W. (ESC)) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 14:36:30 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: <819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> <819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233860BE593DF@tiger> You wouldn't need JAWS with Apple products since its voice output program is built in. You could use a keyboard bluetoothed to an Eye Phone. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think this would really solve the problem, since you're still going to have something talking while you are. Now some of us can talk and listen simultaneously, and some can't. A couple of ideas though, and use them if they're helpful. Use a rating scale for each juror. Put it into Excel or a database, and then sort for the characteristics you want, using the values of the scale. Something as simple as a Lickert scale on each of several attributes would work. I'd be very surprised if such a rating system doesn't already exist. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 2:29 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire I do use a llaptop; doing a find is a little slow when you are speaking at the same time. I was unaware that the I-phone had accessibility. Does Jaws work with it or an I-Pad? I have also heard of a new program where a sighted person can take notes and point to a specific note taken and then touch it and it plays back the audio of what was said when that note was taken. This is what I think could be used to have an electronic chart. How can an I phone be used? Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:58 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings when you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to during the process. HTH Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able to > reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. > It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could > push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror > Thanks, > > Shannon > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Susan Kelly > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Front Desk > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still > correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the > availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one > with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, > it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to > have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential > jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone > that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler > Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: 'Front Desk' > Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Dear Group: > > > > Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track > of > potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel > > > > Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each > square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same > information > available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 > Min. to > 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so > we > get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time > listening to responses from the State's voir dire. > > > > Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Shannon Geihsler > > > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 21:06:38 2010 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:06:38 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov><819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233860BE593DF@tiger> Message-ID: <276D7C14F4EC4DF392C53A17C32136EE@hometwxakonvzn> Sounds like a plan! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hyde, David W. (ESC)" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > You wouldn't need JAWS with Apple products since its voice output program > is built in. You could use a keyboard bluetoothed to an Eye Phone. I'm not > a lawyer, but I don't think this would really solve the problem, since > you're still going to have something talking while you are. Now some of us > can talk and listen simultaneously, and some can't. > > A couple of ideas though, and use them if they're helpful. Use a rating > scale for each juror. Put it into Excel or a database, and then sort for > the characteristics you want, using the values of the scale. Something as > simple as a Lickert scale on each of several attributes would work. I'd be > very surprised if such a rating system doesn't already exist. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 2:29 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > I do use a llaptop; doing a find is a little slow when you are speaking at > the same time. I was unaware that the I-phone had accessibility. Does > Jaws work with it or an I-Pad? I have also heard of a new program where a > sighted person can take notes and point to a specific note taken and then > touch it and it plays back the audio of what was said when that note was > taken. This is what I think could be used to have an electronic chart. > > How can an I phone be used? > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Marc Workman > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:58 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word > document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly > read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. > > Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some > other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings > when > > you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to > during the process. > > HTH > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shannon Geihsler" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > >>I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able >>to >> reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. >> It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could >> push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror >> Thanks, >> >> Shannon >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Susan Kelly >> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Front Desk >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >> >> Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still >> correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the >> availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one >> with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, >> it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to >> have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential >> jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone >> that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler >> Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: 'Front Desk' >> Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >> >> Dear Group: >> >> >> >> Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track >> of >> potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel >> >> >> >> Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each >> square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same >> information >> available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 >> Min. to >> 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so >> we >> get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time >> listening to responses from the State's voir dire. >> >> >> >> Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Shannon Geihsler >> >> >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >> recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 >> pima.gov >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 21:10:39 2010 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:10:39 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Florida Gardian Ad Litem program Message-ID: Several years ago, I filed a complaint with DOJ, because the Florida guardian AD Litem program told me I'd have to be able to see, in order for me to be able to valenteer as a guardian. They sent me a closing letter, detailing what happened. I am happy I was able to bring change to this state agency. RJ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FL Guardian ad Litem cls cp.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 48105 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sbg at sbgaal.com Mon Nov 8 22:17:54 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:17:54 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233860BE593DF@tiger> References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov><819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233860BE593DF@tiger> Message-ID: I am glad to know it does have speech, but how do you operate the phone when it is a touch screen? I can speak and listen at the same time. I was just saying that doing a find when I want to ask a specific juror a question is too slow to do while you are doing questioning. I am intrigued with your suggestion of using excel, but I am unfamiliar with the term Lickert scale and how to set up the spreadsheet. Would you assign a value to each attribute and how do you come up with uniform attributes. I mean there are some such as race sex age etc., but what about being able to note specific questions the juror asked or comments they made? Can you describe what you are suggesting a little more specifically. Thanks, jShannon Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hyde, David W. (ESC) Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 2:37 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire You wouldn't need JAWS with Apple products since its voice output program is built in. You could use a keyboard bluetoothed to an Eye Phone. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think this would really solve the problem, since you're still going to have something talking while you are. Now some of us can talk and listen simultaneously, and some can't. A couple of ideas though, and use them if they're helpful. Use a rating scale for each juror. Put it into Excel or a database, and then sort for the characteristics you want, using the values of the scale. Something as simple as a Lickert scale on each of several attributes would work. I'd be very surprised if such a rating system doesn't already exist. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 2:29 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire I do use a llaptop; doing a find is a little slow when you are speaking at the same time. I was unaware that the I-phone had accessibility. Does Jaws work with it or an I-Pad? I have also heard of a new program where a sighted person can take notes and point to a specific note taken and then touch it and it plays back the audio of what was said when that note was taken. This is what I think could be used to have an electronic chart. How can an I phone be used? Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:58 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings when you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to during the process. HTH Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able to > reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. > It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could > push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror > Thanks, > > Shannon > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Susan Kelly > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Front Desk > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still > correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the > availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one > with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, > it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to > have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential > jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone > that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler > Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: 'Front Desk' > Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Dear Group: > > > > Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track > of > potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel > > > > Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each > square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same > information > available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 > Min. to > 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so > we > get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time > listening to responses from the State's voir dire. > > > > Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Shannon Geihsler > > > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi .k12.wi.us _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Tue Nov 9 00:42:40 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 19:42:40 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: <819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop> <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> <819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> Message-ID: Do you actually work in a court room? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >I do use a llaptop; doing a find is a little slow when you are speaking at > the same time. I was unaware that the I-phone had accessibility. Does > Jaws > work with it or an I-Pad? I have also heard of a new program where a > sighted person can take notes and point to a specific note taken and then > touch it and it plays back the audio of what was said when that note was > taken. This is what I think could be used to have an electronic chart. > > How can an I phone be used? > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Marc Workman > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:58 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word > document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly > read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. > > Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some > other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings > when > > you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to > during the process. > > HTH > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shannon Geihsler" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > >>I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able >>to >> reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. >> It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could >> push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror >> Thanks, >> >> Shannon >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Susan Kelly >> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Front Desk >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >> >> Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still >> correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the >> availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one >> with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, >> it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to >> have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential >> jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone >> that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler >> Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: 'Front Desk' >> Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >> >> Dear Group: >> >> >> >> Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track >> of >> potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel >> >> >> >> Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each >> square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same >> information >> available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 >> Min. to >> 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so >> we >> get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time >> listening to responses from the State's voir dire. >> >> >> >> Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Shannon Geihsler >> >> >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >> recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 >> pima.gov >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3242 - Release Date: 11/07/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3245 - Release Date: 11/08/10 14:34:00 From sbg at sbgaal.com Tue Nov 9 15:19:24 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 09:19:24 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov><819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> Message-ID: <8F95B64E46254BB289D26A20AC781768@HPLaptop> Yes Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 6:43 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Do you actually work in a court room? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >I do use a llaptop; doing a find is a little slow when you are speaking at > the same time. I was unaware that the I-phone had accessibility. Does > Jaws > work with it or an I-Pad? I have also heard of a new program where a > sighted person can take notes and point to a specific note taken and then > touch it and it plays back the audio of what was said when that note was > taken. This is what I think could be used to have an electronic chart. > > How can an I phone be used? > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Marc Workman > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:58 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word > document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly > read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. > > Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some > other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings > when > > you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to > during the process. > > HTH > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shannon Geihsler" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > >>I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able >>to >> reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. >> It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could >> push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror >> Thanks, >> >> Shannon >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Susan Kelly >> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Front Desk >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >> >> Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still >> correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the >> availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one >> with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, >> it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to >> have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential >> jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone >> that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler >> Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: 'Front Desk' >> Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >> >> Dear Group: >> >> >> >> Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track >> of >> potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel >> >> >> >> Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each >> square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same >> information >> available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 >> Min. to >> 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so >> we >> get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time >> listening to responses from the State's voir dire. >> >> >> >> Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Shannon Geihsler >> >> >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >> recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 >> pima.gov >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3242 - Release Date: 11/07/10 02:34:00 From dandrews at visi.com Sun Nov 7 04:22:58 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 23:22:58 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? In-Reply-To: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> References: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: Probably because we are a U.S. organization, not a U.S./Canada/Mexico organization. Dave At 08:19 PM 11/1/2010, you wrote: >can I ask why the scholarship program isn't open to North American blind >people instead of just United states? >----- Original Message ----- David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV Wed Nov 10 17:59:42 2010 From: Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV (Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 12:59:42 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] {Disarmed} Job Announcement for Legal Technician Message-ID: <45909D82C38DBE408DA69213A6A4C7779D8F45DCEE@PL-EMSMB4.ees.hhs.gov> From the USAjobs web site: Job Title: Legal Technician Department: Department Of Health And Human Services Agency: Office of the Secretary of Health and Human Services Sub Agency: Department of Health and Human Services Job Announcement Number: HHS-OS-04-2011-0003 SALARY RANGE: $45,838.00 - $65,812.00 /year OPEN PERIOD: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 to Friday, November 26, 2010 SERIES & GRADE: GS-0986-08/09 POSITION INFORMATION: Full Time Permanent PROMOTION POTENTIAL: 09 DUTY LOCATIONS: 1 vacancy - Seattle, WA WHO MAY BE CONSIDERED: This is a competitive vacancy, open to all United States citizens, advertised under the Delegated Examining Authority. This vacancy is concurrently advertised under merit promotion (MP) procedures for status candidates under announcement HHS-OS-04-2011-0004. Candidates who wish to be considered under both procedures MUST apply under both announcements. JOB SUMMARY: Become a part of the Department that touches the lives of every American! At the Department of Health and Human Services you can give back to your community, state, and country by making a difference in the lives of Americans everywhere. Join HHS and help to make our world healthier, safer and better for all Americans. Through Schedule A: People with Mental Retardation, Severe Physical Disabilities, or Psychiatric Disabilities who have documentation from a licensed medical professional or other entity may apply for noncompetitive appointment through the Schedule A (5 CFR 213.3102(u)) hiring authority. Applicants with documentation may apply directly to agencies' Selective Placement Program Coordinators (SPPC) or equivalent to receive placement assistance. Simply send a resume plus the proof of your disability and job certification documentation to the agency's SPPC or equivalent. This proof may be in the form of documentation obtained from licensed medical professionals, state or private vocational rehabilitation specialists, or any Government agency that issues or provides disability benefits. The certification must include a statement that the individual is very likely to succeed in the performance of the duties of a Legal Technician. A Sample Certification Letter can be downloaded for your provider's use. Sample Certification Letter This position is located with the Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS), Office of the Secretary (OS), Office of the General Counsel (OGC), Region X in Seattle, WA. Position Details: Tenure: Career/Career Conditional Bargaining Unit Position: No Recruitment Bonus: No Relocation Paid: No Probation: A one-year probationary period may be required upon selection/ placement. Additional selections may be made from this announcement. PHS Commissioned Officers interested in performing the duties of this position as a career/career-conditional employee should also apply online under this announcement in order to receive consideration. Salary range listed includes locality pay New to the Government Application Process? We want to be sure you have an opportunity to be considered, so please review the information on the "Qualifications and Evaluations" tab and follow the instructions listed on the "How to Apply" tab. KEY REQUIREMENTS: * You must be a U.S. Citizen by the closing date to qualify. * Travel Required: No * Please carefully read and follow the instructions for HOW TO APPLY. Back to top Duties Additional Duty Location Info: 1 vacancy - Seattle, WA If selected for this position, duties include but are not limited to: Review cases and supporting documents for completeness of information, proper execution, certification, technical details, and other requirements; Review requests for advice and other legal documents. Screen outgoing memoranda, correspondence and documents (particularly attachments) for clarity, accuracy, and completeness. Check outgoing documents for compliance with legal format requirements and determines accuracy of citations to cases, statutes and regulations; Identify and supply current judicial opinions, significant legal briefs, and memoranda. Assist in the preparation of legal pleadings and briefs. Ensure that all litigation-related documents contain required exhibits, attachments, and other necessary materials. Check legal citation. Perform legal research; Assist in the maintenance of a legal tracking system used to track litigation, correspondence, and personnel time; Prepare all domestic travel reservations and arrangements; Maintain time & leave records on an automated timekeeping system; Prepare general correspondence in response to requests for information based upon knowledge of office's policies and procedures or instructions from lead support staff. Back to top Qualifications and Evaluations QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED: Basic Qualifications GS-8: You must have one (1) year of specialized experience that has equipped you with the particular knowledge, skills, and abilities to perform successfully the duties of the position, and that is typically in or related to the work of the position to be filled. To be creditable, specialized experience must have been equivalent to at least the GS-7 level in the Federal Government. Examples of specialized experience include: - Experience using basic legal research sources and methods, legal analysis, and court opinions to cite legal materials in a memorandum and in other types of legal writing. GS-9: You must have one (1) year of specialized experience that has equipped you with the particular knowledge, skills, and abilities to perform successfully the duties of the position, and that is typically in or related to the work of the position to be filled. To be creditable, specialized experience must have been equivalent to at least the GS-8 level in the Federal Government. Examples of specialized experience include: - Experience using database or spreadsheet software to enter, revise, sort or calculate, and retrieve data for legal cases and opinions. You must meet citizenship and all other qualification requirements by the closing date of this announcement. All male citizens of the United States born after December 31, 1959, must be registered for the Selective Service to be eligible for Federal employment. For more information about registering with the Selective Service visit: www.sss.gov. A favorable background/security investigation under Homeland Security Presidential Directive (HSPD) -12 and other applicable laws and regulations is a condition of employment for this position. A credit check may be required as part of the investigation. An unfavorable adjudication of a background/security investigation may result in your removal from the federal service. HOW YOU WILL BE EVALUATED: Your resume and responses to the self-assessment job questions are an integral part of the process for determining your basic and specialized qualifications for the position. Therefore, it is important to support your responses to the applicant assessment questions by providing examples of past and present experience when requested. High self-assessment in the vacancy questions that is not supported by information in your resume, essay responses, and/or supporting documents may eliminate you from best-qualified status or result in a lowered score. There are several parts of the application process that affect the overall evaluation of your application: 1. Your resume in which is part of your USAJOBS profile 2. Your responses to the core questions 3. Your responses to the self-assessment job-specific questions 4. Your supporting documents, if requested Your application will be evaluated and rated under Category Rating and Selection procedures. Category rating combines the applicant's total qualifying experience and education/training into a single quality category. If you meet the basic qualification requirements, we will further evaluate your entire application package to determine the quality and extent of your experience, education, training, etc., for placement in one of the following categories: 1) Best Qualified - Meets the Minimum Qualification Requirements and excels in most requirements of the position; 2) Well Qualified - Meets the Minimum Qualification Requirements and meets most requirements of the position; 3) Qualified - Meets the Minimum Qualification Requirements, but does not possess the relevant competencies to a substantive degree. A selecting official may make selections from the highest quality category (Best Qualified) provided no preference eligible in that category is passed over to select a non-preference eligible in that category unless approval has been granted. Please be sure to allow yourself adequate time to apply for this vacancy. We recommend that you preview the questions for this announcement before you start the application process using the "click here" link below.To preview questions please click here<%20https://jobs1.quickhire.com/scripts/HHS-RHRC_QHBCWeb.exe/ROSApply?CONFIGID=C7701J21425>. Back to top Benefits and Other Info BENEFITS: Federal Employees Health Benefits Program More Info Federal Employees' Group Life Insurance More Info Long-Term Care Insurance More Info Almost all new employees are automatically covered by the Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS). If you are transferring from another agency and covered by CSRS, you may continue in this program. More Info Annual Leave More Info Sick Leave More Info Information on Federal holidays that fall within your regularly scheduled tour of duty. More Info Alternative work schedule options may be available. If you use public transportation, part of your transportation costs may be subsidized. Our human resources office can provide additional information on how this program is run. OTHER INFORMATION: In an effort to promote efficiency in the hiring process, the resume and corresponding responses of successful candidates may be shared with other Health and Human Services (HHS) organizations serviced by the Rockville Human Resources Center (RHRC) with similar vacancies (i.e., vacancies with the same title, series, grade and promotional potential as the position advertised). Applicants are strongly encouraged to apply directly to the vacancy of interest and not rely on this possibility as a means to securing employment. If you do not want your application shared with other HHS organizations, you must notify the point of contact listed on this vacancy announcement and your record will be noted accordingly. Selections made under this announcement will be processed as new appointments to the civil service. Current civil service employees would, therefore, be given a new appointment to the civil service. E-Verify: If you are selected for this position, the documentation that you present for purposes of completing the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Form I-9 will be verified through the DHS "E-Verify" system. Federal law requires DHHS to use the E-Verify system to verify the employment eligibility of all new hires, and obligates the new hire to take affirmative steps to resolve any discrepancies identified by the system as a condition of continued employment. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services is an E-Verify Participant. Equal Opportunity Employment. Equality is held as one of the most important values here at HHS. Selection for this - and any other - position will be based solely on merit. HHS does not discriminate on the premises of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, politics, marital status, sexual orientation, physical or mental disability, age or membership or non- membership in an employee organization. Special Consideration: Certain veterans, displaced federal employees, and the disabled may be eligible for special consideration. Please refer to the following links for additional information and documentation requirements. Veterans Information Schedule A Information Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) Surplus or Displaced Employees CTAP Criteria. Displaced Federal employees ICTAP criteria. Back to top How To Apply HOW TO APPLY: Please read the ENTIRE vacancy announcement to ensure that you comply with the application procedures. Your application will be regarded as incomplete, if the Rockville Human Resources Center (RHRC) does not receive your application and all required supplemental documentation, as specified in the "Supporting documents" section of this vacancy announcement, by 11:59 PM Eastern Time (ET) on the closing date of this vacancy announcement. Your application and all required supplemental documents must be submitted in the manner specified in this section. Applications and supplemental documents that are submitted in any other manner without prior approval from the agency point of contact will be handled as incomplete and will not be considered. You must complete the following three steps described below in order to apply for this position online. STEP ONE - (Online Resume - USAJOBS) You must create a user account and at least one Federal resume at USAJOBS. Information you provide in USAJOBS is general information completed by all applicants. The information you provide and your Federal resume will become part of your application and will automatically be transferred to the HHS Careers system when you apply on-line. After you finish submitting your resume from USAJOBS, you will automatically be taken to HHS Careers where you will be asked to complete the next step of the application process. You may edit your resume up until 11:59 PM ET of the announcement close date. STEP TWO - (Vacancy Specific Questions - HHS Careers) In HHS Careers, you will answer vacancy specific questions necessary to evaluate your qualifications for the specific job to which you are applying. When completed, the information you provided at USAJOBS and the answers to the HHS Careers questions will become your application. You may edit your answers by 11:59 PM ET of the announcement close date. When completing the online questionnaire, please do not inflate your qualifications or underestimate your previous experience. You will receive a rating based on your responses to the questionnaire. STEP THREE - (Submit Supporting Documents - HHS Careers) After you have completed the vacancy specific question and selected the "FINISH" button, a list of fax cover sheets will appear with instructions. A complete listing of the material that must be submitted to the HR office is provided in the "Supporting documents" section of this announcement. Review this section for which documents are applicable to you and how to submit. Most of these documents will be requested upon completion of the Vacancy Questionnaire. All applicable supplemental application material must be received at the appropriate fax number, shown on the fax cover sheet, by 11:59 PM Eastern Time on the closing date. For additional Information: Rockville Center HelpDesk Telephone 888-478-4340 quickquestions at psc.gov Hours of operation: Monday through Friday 7:30AM to 5:00PM ET TTY/TDD 800-877-8339 Reasonable Accommodation: This agency provides reasonable accommodation to applicants with disabilities. If you need a reasonable accommodation for any part of the application and hiring process, please contact the Rockville Center HelpDesk Telephone (888)-478-4340, TTY/TDD (800)-877-8339; email quickquestions at psc.gov. The decision on granting reasonable accommodation will be made on a case-by-case basis. If applying online poses a hardship to you, the Rockville Center HelpDesk listed on the announcement will provide assistance to ensure that applications are submitted online by the closing date. You must contact the Rockville Center HelpDesk prior to the closing date of this announcement to receive assistance. Hours of operation: Monday through Friday 7:30AM to 5:00PM ET (excluding Federal Holidays). REQUIRED DOCUMENTS: Supporting Documentation Your application will be considered INCOMPLETE if you do not FAX all required supporting documentation before 11:59 PM ET on the closing date of this vacancy announcement. Our fax number is 571-258-4052. During the online application process, you will encounter a webpage which lists the available fax coversheets. There will be several options available. However, you only need to print and submit the fax coversheets that are applicable to you as an applicant. You must submit a coversheet for each type of supporting documentation. Only the fax coversheet will ensure the proper receipt of your materials(s) and the coversheet MUST be page one (1) of the corresponding supporting documents. All supporting documents must be faxed before 11:59 PM ET on the closing date of the vacancy. You will receive an email confirming receipt of your faxed supporting documents within 24 hours. Each online application generates fax cover sheets that contain a unique Barcode. You must use the cover sheets generated by this online application when submitting your supporting documents. DO NOT use fax cover sheets generated by a different online application. PLEASE NOTE: Not all of the document types listed will pertain to you; only submit documents needed to complete your application package. For example, the Schedule A Certification document must only be submitted by individuals applying based on eligibility for appointment due to a disability. The SF-50 is a form current and former Federal employees submit to document their Federal employment status. Below is a list of supporting documents for this announcement. This is not an all-inclusive list of supporting documents. Please only submit the documents that are APPLICABLE to you as an individual applicant: --EDUCATION DOCUMENTS: You must fax copies of your college transcripts if using education to qualify or if the position requires positive education. UNOFFICIAL COPIES ARE ACCEPTABLE at the application phase; however, you will be required to provide official transcripts upon entry on duty. (See paragraph under education if you are currently in series advertised.) Foreign Degree Note: All foreign degrees must be evaluated by a nationally recognized Accrediting Agency. You must submit proof of such evaluation and/or conversion. National Association of Credential Evaluation Services website<%20http://www.naces.org/members.htm>. This list, which may not be all inclusive, is for informational purposes only and does not imply any endorsement of any specific agency. --CTAP/ICTAP (FOR DISPLACED EMPLOYEES): If you are applying under the Career Transition Assistance Program (CTAP) or under the Interagency Career Transition Assistance Program (ICTAP), please FAX a copy of your SF-50 and RIF Notice dated within one year. Information regarding the CTAP can be found by clicking CTAP INFO Information regarding the ICTAP can be found by clicking ICTAP INFO --VETERANS: If you are a veteran, please FAX a copy of your DD214, which states the type of discharge received. If you are a disabled veteran, please FAX a copy of your DD214, SF-15, and a copy of your VA Disability Letter issued after 1991 or later documenting a service-related disability. Information regarding the eligibility requirements for 5-point and 10-point veterans' preference can be found by clicking HERE. If you encounter technical difficulties during the faxing process please call the Rockville Center HelpDesk at 1-888-478-4340 Monday through Friday, 7:30AM to 5:00PM ET (excluding Federal holidays). AGENCY CONTACT INFO: Rockville Center HelpDesk Phone: 888-478-4340 Fax: 571-258-4052 TDD: 800-877-8339 Email: quickquestions at psc.gov Agency Information: Department of Health and Human Services DHHS Rockville HR Center 5600 Fishers Lane Rockville, MD 20857 Fax: 571-258-4052 WHAT TO EXPECT NEXT: Once the online questionnaire is received, you will receive an acknowledgement email that your submission was successful. Once the announcement closes, we will review applications to identify the best qualified candidates. Due to a high volume of phone calls and emails, please use MYUSAJOBS WEBSITE to check the status of your application. The most highly qualified candidates will be referred to the hiring manager for further consideration and possible interview.< Back to top [cid:image002.gif at 01CB80BD.DED18B40] Go to section of this Job: Overview Duties Qualifications and Evaluations Benefits and Other Info How to Apply [cid:image003.gif at 01CB80BD.DED18B40] [cid:image004.gif at 01CB80BD.DED18B40] [cid:image005.gif at 01CB80BD.DED18B40] [cid:image006.gif at 01CB80BD.DED18B40] Agency Information: Department of Health and Human Services DHHS Rockville HR Center 5600 Fishers Lane Rockville, MD 20857 Fax: 571-258-4052 Questions about this job: Rockville Center HelpDesk Phone: 888-478-4340 Fax: 571-258-4052 TDD: 800-877-8339 Email: quickquestions at psc.gov Job Announcement Number: HHS-OS-04-2011-0003 Control Number: 2091024 [cid:image007.gif at 01CB80BD.DED18B40] EEO Policy Statement | Reasonable Accommodation Policy Statement | Veterans Information | Legal and Regulatory Guidance Site Map Contact Us Help/FAQs Employers Privacy Act and Public Burden Information This is a United States Office of Personnel Management website. USAJOBS is the Federal Government's official one-stop source for Federal jobs and employment information. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 106 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.gif Type: image/gif Size: 224 bytes Desc: image002.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1910 bytes Desc: image003.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1459 bytes Desc: image004.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1350 bytes Desc: image005.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1367 bytes Desc: image006.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.gif Type: image/gif Size: 613 bytes Desc: image007.gif URL: From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 12 20:22:35 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:22:35 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] comments due November 17 for deaf-blind communications device distribution Message-ID: <7EEA5F28E4EA4F7F80FB6391E7D0A7B6@spike> On November 3, 2010, the Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau of the FCC released a Public Notice seeking comment on the best way to implement a national program that will distribute specialized customer premises communications equipment to individuals who are deaf-blind.? This Public Notice is being released to implement a mandate in the newly enacted 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act, which requires rules on this issue within 6 months. You are encouraged to file comments in this proceeding, and please note carefully the short comment deadlines, which are needed to comply with the very tight schedule established by the 21st Century Act. The Comment due date is November 17, 2010 and the Reply Comment due date is November 23, 2010. To retrieve an electronic copy of the Public Notice please click on the link below. http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-10-2112A1.doc From shannonldillon at hotmail.com Sun Nov 14 04:05:49 2010 From: shannonldillon at hotmail.com (Shannon L. Dillon) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 04:05:49 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] hey Message-ID: i can't believe i didn't know about this sooner i cant express how awesome earing cash from their house is this was huge for me http://bit.ly/9kag2Y its a given that youll feel sensational you won't regret this at all From dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sun Nov 14 14:01:45 2010 From: dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net (dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 08:01:45 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] hey References: Message-ID: <5741474E68174E60A587F0837B18FEEC@DANELLIEVANDAWN> Am I the only one that didn't quite get this message? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon L. Dillon" To: Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 10:05 PM Subject: [blindlaw] hey >i can't believe i didn't know about this sooner i cant express how awesome >earing cash from their house is this was huge for me href="http://bit.ly/9kag2Y">http://bit.ly/9kag2Y its a given that youll >feel sensational you won't regret this at all > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dlmlaw%40sbcglobal.net From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sun Nov 14 22:55:46 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 17:55:46 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? Message-ID: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> Hi all: Just wondering, is it true that if you're going to form an LLC you require a publication to be made in 2 newspapers? That's what I heard, but don't know if its true because it hasn't been mentioned in any of the government resources I look at. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks, Jorge From rthomas at emplmntattorney.com Mon Nov 15 15:05:35 2010 From: rthomas at emplmntattorney.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 07:05:35 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? In-Reply-To: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> Message-ID: <2C8A4CBFA4174AA5ABFA718431317CDB@RThomas> Establishing an LLC is controlled by the law of each State. Check with the Secretary of State office in your State to learn what you have to do. If your State has a website, you can probably find the information on that website. Respectfully, Russell J. Thomas, Jr. Law Office of Russell J. Thomas, Jr. 4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101 Newport Beach, California 92660 T: (949) 752-0101 F: (949) 257-4756 M: (949) 466-7238 www.emplmnattorney.com Follow me on Twitter: EmplmntAttorney PLEASE NOTE MY NEW EMAIL ADDRESS, EFF. 6/1/2010: RTHOMAS at EMPLMNTATTORNEY.COM -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jorge Paez Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 2:56 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? Hi all: Just wondering, is it true that if you're going to form an LLC you require a publication to be made in 2 newspapers? That's what I heard, but don't know if its true because it hasn't been mentioned in any of the government resources I look at. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks, Jorge _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi rm.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Nov 15 17:30:19 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:30:19 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] 2011 Hearne Award Nomination Form and Instructions, American Bar Association Message-ID: Link: http://new.abanet.org/disability/Pages/HearneNomination_Open.aspx Text: 2011 Hearne Award Nomination Form and Instructions About the Award & Instructions ABOUT THE AWARD The Hearne Award, created in 1999, honors the work of Paul G. Hearne, a lawyer who was born with connective tissue disorder. Although Mr. Hearne's disease limited his growth to less than four feet, and restricted his movement, he moved mountains. Mr. Hearne's mark on the disability rights movement, especially from a legal perspective, was tremendous. He founded the first legal services office in New York for people with disabilities, authored the first national legal handbook on disability rights, and helped draft the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. The award is to be presented to an individual who has performed exemplary service in the furtherance of access to justice for people with disabilities, or an organization or group that furthers the goal of full participation for people with disabilities in society. Click here to learn more about the award. SELECTION CRITERIA Nominate an individual or an organization that has made significant contributions to furthering the rights, dignity, and access to justice for people with disabilities. Examples of eligible organizations include: (1) disability advocacy organizations; (2) a law firm or law practice; (3) a state or local bar association; (4) a nonprofit legal services program; (5) a law school clinic or academic-affiliated program; or (6) a law-related program providing representation for people with disabilities. The following individuals and organizations are ineligible: 1. Self nominations. Therefore, any explanations of the nominee's qualifications may not be from the nominee. 2. A current member of the Commission or his or her immediate family members. Previous Commissioners and their family members may be nominated. 3. An individual that works at the same organization, company, or entity as a current Commission member, or an organization, company, or entity where a current Commission member works. These individuals or entities may be nominated after a Commission member serves his or her last term. INSTRUCTIONS All applications require two items: * the nomination form * a description of your nominee's qualifications (no more than three pages) along with a list of your nominee's accomplishments (no more than ten pages) You can submit these items in one of two ways. First, you can fill out the form below and attach the required description and list document through our online form. If you choose this option, you must place the description of your nominee's qualifications and the listing of your nominee's accomplishments into one file (our system will only allow you to attach one file to your form). Second, you can download the nomination form here: * 2011 Paul G. Hearne Award Nomination Form and mail, fax, or e-mail a completed form to: The Paul G. Hearne Award c/o William J. Phelan, IV American Bar Association Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law 740 15th Street N.W., 9th Floor Washington, DC 20005 fax: 202-442-3439 e-mail: phelanw at staff.abanet.org Please remember that all documents must be received or postmarked by March 31, 2011. If you submit your documents electronically, make sure all PDFs are accessible and tagged for people who use screen-reading software. MS Word is preferred. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Picture (Device Independent Bitmap) 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 769 bytes Desc: Picture (Device Independent Bitmap) 1.jpg URL: From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Mon Nov 15 17:50:18 2010 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 10:50:18 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> Message-ID: Hi George: Wouldn't the rules differ from state to state? In some countries, registration of a company is centralized; as far as I know, it is not so in the United States! I'd suggest you call the agency responsible for company/trade name registration in your state of residence to find out what their new rules. Here in Colorado, I have received no word from the Colorado Secretary of State's office about publishing information on an LLC registration in either our newspapers or any other national publication. Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From rfarber at jw.com Mon Nov 15 19:10:57 2010 From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 13:10:57 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? In-Reply-To: References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> Message-ID: <3E86A9F3DC676742B192213CC4E9D4A266BB17EA@PDC-MAIL02.jwllp.com> Its not always the registration rules that apply. In Texas, in a sole proprietorship changes to an entity, then an advertisement needs to be published. This is a misc. law and not in the registration/formation statute. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:50 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? Hi George: Wouldn't the rules differ from state to state? In some countries, registration of a company is centralized; as far as I know, it is not so in the United States! I'd suggest you call the agency responsible for company/trade name registration in your state of residence to find out what their new rules. Here in Colorado, I have received no word from the Colorado Secretary of State's office about publishing information on an LLC registration in either our newspapers or any other national publication. Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Mon Nov 15 20:01:26 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 15:01:26 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? In-Reply-To: <3E86A9F3DC676742B192213CC4E9D4A266BB17EA@PDC-MAIL02.jwllp.com> References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> <3E86A9F3DC676742B192213CC4E9D4A266BB17EA@PDC-MAIL02.jwllp.com> Message-ID: <31AE1F81-D4CE-4E11-A0EB-D6282F38E409@mac.com> Ah, no wonder why I couldn't find that in the stat'es resources. Do you have any idea where I can check to see if laws like that apply in my state, because the state resources only talk about the formation statute. Thanks, Jorge On Nov 15, 2010, at 2:10 PM, Farber, Randy wrote: > Its not always the registration rules that apply. In Texas, in a sole proprietorship changes to an entity, then an advertisement needs to be published. This is a misc. law and not in the registration/formation statute. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:50 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? > > Hi George: > > Wouldn't the rules differ from state to state? In some countries, registration of a company is centralized; as far as I know, it is not so in the United States! > > I'd suggest you call the agency responsible for company/trade name registration in your state of residence to find out what their new rules. > Here in Colorado, I have received no word from the Colorado Secretary of State's office about publishing information on an LLC registration in either our newspapers or any other national publication. > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From rfarber at jw.com Mon Nov 15 20:08:34 2010 From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:08:34 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? In-Reply-To: <31AE1F81-D4CE-4E11-A0EB-D6282F38E409@mac.com> References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> <3E86A9F3DC676742B192213CC4E9D4A266BB17EA@PDC-MAIL02.jwllp.com> <31AE1F81-D4CE-4E11-A0EB-D6282F38E409@mac.com> Message-ID: <3E86A9F3DC676742B192213CC4E9D4A266BB187B@PDC-MAIL02.jwllp.com> Each state is different, so I don't know where to look in your state. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jorge Paez Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 2:01 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? Ah, no wonder why I couldn't find that in the stat'es resources. Do you have any idea where I can check to see if laws like that apply in my state, because the state resources only talk about the formation statute. Thanks, Jorge On Nov 15, 2010, at 2:10 PM, Farber, Randy wrote: > Its not always the registration rules that apply. In Texas, in a sole proprietorship changes to an entity, then an advertisement needs to be published. This is a misc. law and not in the registration/formation statute. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:50 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? > > Hi George: > > Wouldn't the rules differ from state to state? In some countries, registration of a company is centralized; as far as I know, it is not so in the United States! > > I'd suggest you call the agency responsible for company/trade name registration in your state of residence to find out what their new rules. > Here in Colorado, I have received no word from the Colorado Secretary of State's office about publishing information on an LLC registration in either our newspapers or any other national publication. > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw > .com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%4 > 0mac.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Nov 15 22:32:07 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:32:07 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Suggest an Attorney for the Lawyer Spotlight, American Bar Association Message-ID: >From the ABA Commission on mental and Physical Disability law Link: http://new.abanet.org/disability/Pages/spotlight_suggest.aspx Text: Suggest an Attorney for the Lawyer Spotlight Do you know a lawyer with a disability who is an asset to the profession? If so, we would like to hear about it! The CMPDL, each month, highlights an attorney with a disability who has demonstrated great legal skill and talent. These individuals are role models and leaders within the legal community. Those considered for the Lawyer Spotlight must fill out a questionnaire and complete a brief interview. Self-nominations are allowed. If you know someone who should be given the Spotlight, please fill out the form below: Name of nominee: Nominee's organization: Nominee's position/title: Nominee's e-mail address: Nominee's daytime phone: Why should this individual receive the spotlight? (200 words or less, please) Your name: Your phone or e-mail: Can we reveal your identity to the nominee? Yes No From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Nov 15 23:31:35 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:31:35 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind advocates allege Penn State services not blind friendly, Philadelphia Inquirer, November 13 2010 Message-ID: Link: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/20101113_Blind_advocates_allege_Penn_State_services_not_blind_friendly.html Text: Blind advocates allege Penn State services not blind friendly By Robert Moran Inquirer Staff Writer A national advocacy group for the blind has called for an investigation of alleged "pervasive and ongoing discrimination" at Pennsylvania State University in the availability of technology-based services for blind students and faculty. The National Federation of the Blind sent a seven-page complaint letter dated Friday to the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights, alleging that Penn State is violating the Americans with Disabilities Act. "Penn State's persistent failure to abide by the law has resulted in gratuitously denying its blind students and faculty equal access to information and thereby to an equal-education opportunity," the complaint states. It is the first such comprehensive complaint filed by the federation against a publicly funded university, group spokesman Chris Danielson said. "Penn State is certainly not out of the ordinary," Danielson said, adding that his group hoped the complaint spurs changes at other schools. Annemarie Mountz, a Penn State spokeswoman, said the university could not comment on the complaint because officials had not yet reviewed its claims. "Issues of equity and accessibility are immensely important, and we take them very seriously," Mountz said in an e-mail, adding later: "It is Penn State's policy not to discriminate against qualified persons with disabilities in its admissions policies and procedures or its educational programs, services, and activities." In the complaint, the federation alleges that the university's online library catalog is not fully accessible for blind students. University websites, including for the Office of Disability Services, are not fully accessible for the blind, the federation claims. Course-management software, which allows students and professors to interact online and perform course-related functions, also "is almost completely inaccessible to blind users," the complaint says. Blind faculty members must rely on the assistance of a sighted person to use "smart" podiums that interface with laptop computers, the complaint says. There is only one ATM on the main campus with audio output that a blind student could use with their identification cards, which can be used as debit cards through a program with PNC Bank, the federation alleges, adding that the PNC website is "nearly inaccessible" for the blind. Danielson explained that the blind can access websites through software that reads and describes what is on a Web page. But the websites described in the complaint don't work correctly with the software, he said. "This technology is not inherently inaccessible," he said. "This isn't something the university can't fix. They've just gone about it incorrectly." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact staff writer Robert Moran at 215-854-5983 or bmoran at phillynews.com. From undergod14 at gmail.com Mon Nov 15 23:50:41 2010 From: undergod14 at gmail.com (Nick Bennett) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 18:50:41 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Hello everyone Message-ID: <2653d25a1be6ee4fa66d86e4a5ba0ed9@nickbennettdell> My name is Nicholas Bennett. I was just writing to ask how hard is it to go threw the law school? Do you need a masters degree in this practice. How many years is this? And what is your roles in defending a person? See I've wanted to be a lawyer and I was just wondering how much it pays per year. Please write back soon. Thanks Nicholas Bennett Ps, happy holidays From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 16 00:00:39 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 18:00:39 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Hello everyone References: <2653d25a1be6ee4fa66d86e4a5ba0ed9@nickbennettdell> Message-ID: <32DFA6D9A87E4B7B9A03ADAF3A2F09C4@GPD945> these are all very good questions. I will pass on some information that my unckle, a crown prosicuter said to me "if you're looking at Law for the money then don't bother." I'm not sure about other law schools, I gather it depends on the school just like it does for an undergraduate degree. The chairmen of the University of Saskatchewan's college of Law came and spoke with us and mentioned that school fees and textbooks you're looking at $10000. I'm not sure if that is per year or per semester as he said that textbooks are about $2000. I asked today what students take as I was interested if students with a disability have to take the same amount of courses as they do with sighted students. Up in Canada a full time load is 3 to 5 courses, for an undergrad degree. In law school first year students take 5 classes. I sure learnt a lot today about taking the LSats, qualifications required to getting in, ETC. As for defending someone it all depends on the case but from what I've observed being able to approach and ask the five w's and dig to get the person off with the least offence you need to put in a few hours. Correct me if I'm wrong lawyers that are on this list but a law degree isn't the type of job if you're looking to get out of the office monday to friday 8:30 AM to 4:30 PM. Talk to you later and welcoem to the list. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Bennett" To: Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 5:50 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Hello everyone My name is Nicholas Bennett. I was just writing to ask how hard is it to go threw the law school? Do you need a masters degree in this practice. How many years is this? And what is your roles in defending a person? See I've wanted to be a lawyer and I was just wondering how much it pays per year. Please write back soon. Thanks Nicholas Bennett Ps, happy holidays _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Nov 16 00:19:50 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 18:19:50 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Student E-rent Pilot Project Message-ID: VGhpcyBtYXkgYmUgIG9mIGludGVyZXN0IHRvIGxhdyBzdHVkZW50cy4NCg0KRnJvbTogQ01QREwn cyBEaXNhYmlsaXR5IERpc2N1c3Npb24gRG9ja2V0ICgzRCkgW21haWx0bzpDTVBETC0zREBNQUlM LkFCQU5FVC5PUkddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBMaXNzbmVyLCBTY290dA0KU2VudDogU3VuZGF5LCBO b3ZlbWJlciAxNCwgMjAxMCA2OjAzIEFNDQpUbzogQ01QREwtM0RATUFJTC5BQkFORVQuT1JHDQpT dWJqZWN0OiBTdHVkZW50IEUtcmVudCBQaWxvdCBQcm9qZWN0DQpJbXBvcnRhbmNlOiBMb3cNCg0K 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dCAzRCBvciB0aGUgQ01QREwgaW4gZ2VuZXJhbCwgcGxlYXNlIGNvbnRhY3QgV2lsbGlhbSBQaGVs YW4gYXQgcGhlbGFud0BzdGFmZi5hYmFuZXQub3JnLg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0gbmV4dCBwYXJ0 IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fDQpCb2QgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpCb2RAYWhlYWQtbGlzdHMub3JnDQpodHRwOi8vYWhl YWQtbGlzdHMub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYm9kX2FoZWFkLWxpc3RzLm9yZw0K From jsorozco at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 23:34:57 2010 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 18:34:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: LSAT survey- test-takers receiving accommodations (Dec. 1) Message-ID: <06FBBEA9172C4569A9BB65FAC764BD20@Rufus> Subject: LSAT survey- test-takers receiving accommodations (Dec. 1) Hello- As some of you may know, I am conducting a survey of LSAT takers who received disability-related accommodations on the exam. The original message appears below. Since we originally circulated the survey, we've improved the access and also created a question specific to flagged scores. The new format should work better and will give us data about people who received accommodations in general (and were not "flagged") and those who received accommodations related to timing (and were flagged). Feel free to check it out: http://tinyurl.com/37ehvd4 We need more people to take the survey by December 1st. My original message appears below and I thank you for taking the survey or distributing it to your networks. Thanks again, Carrie From dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 18 15:09:38 2010 From: dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net (dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 09:09:38 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Message-ID: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan From emyska at charter.net Thu Nov 18 19:10:01 2010 From: emyska at charter.net (Elizabeth Myska) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:10:01 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> Message-ID: <004901cb8754$336fd200$9a4f7600$@net> Do 2 out of 3 count? I am a legally blind attorney in MA. I was diagnosed with RP in 2005 and deemed legally blind in 2007. I do feel underemployed since being deemed legally blind, but have returned to school for my Master of Laws in a different practice area, hoping to reinvent myself. Because my spouse is already receiving SSDI as a result of a neuromuscular disease, I am loathe to cap my income and receive disability. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 10:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/emyska%40charter.n et From kgilbride at dralegal.org Thu Nov 18 19:56:02 2010 From: kgilbride at dralegal.org (Karla Gilbride) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 11:56:02 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Interested in speaking with blind law students Message-ID: <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE21508@draexchange.dralegal.com> Apologies if you are receiving this message for a second time. Please pass the following message along to any other listservs or networks where it may reach blind law students or potential Bar takers. Disability Rights Advocates is interested in speaking with students who plan to take the Bar exam of any state within the next two to three years. Whether you are a third-year law student preparing to take the Bar in a few months or a 1l just beginning your studies, we would like to talk with you about what accommodations you use in your law studies and on law school exams and about what accommodations you intend to request for the Bar exam. Please contact Karla Gilbride at kgilbride at dralegal.org or by phone at 510-665-8644. Thank you for helping us to better understand the needs of blind law students. Sincerely, Karla Gilbride Karla Gilbride Staff Attorney Disability Rights Advocates 2001 Center Street, Third Floor Berkeley, California 94704-1204 510-665-8644 ext. 117 (Tel) 510-665-8716 (TTY) 510-665-8511 (Fax) kgilbride at dralegal.org STATEMENT OF CONFIDENTIALITY The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the addressee. This information may also be legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or at (510) 665-8644 or (510) 665-8716 (TTY) and delete the message and its attachments, if any. From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Thu Nov 18 20:16:18 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 12:16:18 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> Message-ID: <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Thu Nov 18 20:22:02 2010 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 13:22:02 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E768@EVS02.central.pima.gov> I've often wondered about this myself, as I didn't hit the statutorily blind level until a couple of years ago. However, there is a prosecutor in the County Attorney's Office here who has been blind since birth. Also, one of my classmates was already statutorily blind (RP)by the time we were in school, and a lady in the class ahead of us was totally blind due to rheumatoid arthritis. As far as I know, both of these individuals are also employed in the legal profession. Granted, that's not many, but there is at least a glimmer of hope... -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2010 1:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov From kgilbride at dralegal.org Thu Nov 18 20:47:59 2010 From: kgilbride at dralegal.org (Karla Gilbride) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 12:47:59 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> Message-ID: <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> James, I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind attorneys are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off the top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), and I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should chat further off-list about your specific concerns. Best, Karla Gilbride -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr alegal.org From pattichang at att.net Thu Nov 18 21:36:14 2010 From: pattichang at att.net (Patti Chang) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:36:14 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> Message-ID: <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net> I know of five in Chicago. Patti S. Gregory Chang Sent from my I Phone On Nov 18, 2010, at 3:16 PM, "James Weisberg" wrote: > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pattichang%40att.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 18 21:50:47 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 13:50:47 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> Message-ID: <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From bspiry at comcast.net Thu Nov 18 22:16:33 2010 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:16:33 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <000101cb876e$45dee920$d19cbb60$@net> As am I. Bill Spiry J.D. Candidate 2012 University of Oregon School of Law -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 1:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From joramsey at cox.net Thu Nov 18 22:39:28 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 17:39:28 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <4BD690EA3FD041858177AAD81A10B8DB@noneeb869fea9a> Hello Dennis: I too am puzzled by his statement. I am a blind lawyer and in private practice here in Florida. If we as blind people follow this kind of logic, we would all still be living in nursing homes or even worse. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From dravant at ameritech.net Thu Nov 18 23:04:45 2010 From: dravant at ameritech.net (denise avant) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 15:04:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net> Message-ID: <353229.94256.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> hi, there are several blind attorneys not only in Chicago but throughout the united states, who are successfully practicing law either in the private sector or with various local, state and federal government agencies. These lawyers went through law school using alternative techniques, such as using Braille, adaptive equipment and readers. Using these same techniques, these  lawyers took and passed the bar examination. Using these same techniques, these lawyers have been successful in their legal career. so don't think for one minute being blind is any hinderance to becoming a successful practicing attorney. --- On Thu, 11/18/10, Patti Chang wrote: From: Patti Chang Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 3:36 PM I know of five in Chicago. Patti S. Gregory Chang Sent from my I Phone On Nov 18, 2010, at 3:16 PM, "James Weisberg" wrote: > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment.  I would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely.  FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1  blind or statutorily blind; > 2  unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3  receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you.  Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pattichang%40att.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritech.net From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Thu Nov 18 23:55:10 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 15:55:10 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Karla Gilbride Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind attorneys are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off the top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), and I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should chat further off-list about your specific concerns. Best, Karla Gilbride -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr alegal.org _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Thu Nov 18 23:58:12 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 15:58:12 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net> Message-ID: <81A04AB63C404AE68798909797AABF95@Blind> Five more!! Wait I'm changing my opinion. I hope those considering law as a profession on this list serve are catching all the low numbers. Would still love to know how many of this large group lost sight AFTEER they were employed?? -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patti Chang Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 1:36 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I know of five in Chicago. Patti S. Gregory Chang Sent from my I Phone On Nov 18, 2010, at 3:16 PM, "James Weisberg" wrote: > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pattichang%40att.n et _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From joramsey at cox.net Fri Nov 19 00:00:16 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 19:00:16 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: I guess many of us on the list are exceptions and I certainly do not come from money. Are you saying that you are a top tier Berkeley Grad? If so, maybe you aren't putting forth the effort to practice law. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:55 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Karla Gilbride Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind attorneys are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off the top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), and I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should chat further off-list about your specific concerns. Best, Karla Gilbride -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr alegal.org _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 00:02:50 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:02:50 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <7B84437EB8954248855237CAA859AC8A@Blind> Been there, done that, and the legal profession is not as progressive as they like to claim. Remember, intent is hard to prove so a hiring attorney can, and will usually, claim anything business appropriate like "I can't hire you because I need someone available to take filings to the court on a moments notice and they obviously need to be able to drive." How are you going to prove the proffered basis for you not being hired is not pretextual?? You can't, and this actually happened to me AFTER I had been given a job offer as I learned quickly to go to interviews without my cane!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 1:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 00:05:02 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:05:02 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <000101cb876e$45dee920$d19cbb60$@net> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> <000101cb876e$45dee920$d19cbb60$@net> Message-ID: Anyone is welcome to contact me, a blind attorney who has been practicing in four states since 98 with any questions. 760--832-6804. And I am truly sorry Bill for what you are about to discover. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bill Spiry Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 2:17 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys As am I. Bill Spiry J.D. Candidate 2012 University of Oregon School of Law -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 1:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 00:07:12 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:07:12 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <4BD690EA3FD041858177AAD81A10B8DB@noneeb869fea9a> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> <4BD690EA3FD041858177AAD81A10B8DB@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <2A8BEEA58F9F41598A4AEDFAE6E6981F@Blind> Interesting John: I too just last year was practicing in Boca doing immigration work. Let me ask you this, were you blind before or after you received you first job? Are you a solo? Curious. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 2:39 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Hello Dennis: I too am puzzled by his statement. I am a blind lawyer and in private practice here in Florida. If we as blind people follow this kind of logic, we would all still be living in nursing homes or even worse. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 00:09:54 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:09:54 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <353229.94256.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net> <353229.94256.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CF989B73C474D8895024D8A58726FA6@Blind> I agree one-hundred percent. I have been successful unless you quantify success by being able to get off disability. But I thought that was the purpose of putting oneself through a long arduous program of education! Yes of course the way to go for people like us is government jobs, but other than that the numbers bare out my pessimism no? -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of denise avant Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:05 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys hi, there are several blind attorneys not only in Chicago but throughout the united states, who are successfully practicing law either in the private sector or with various local, state and federal government agencies. These lawyers went through law school using alternative techniques, such as using Braille, adaptive equipment and readers. Using these same techniques, these  lawyers took and passed the bar examination. Using these same techniques, these lawyers have been successful in their legal career. so don't think for one minute being blind is any hinderance to becoming a successful practicing attorney. --- On Thu, 11/18/10, Patti Chang wrote: From: Patti Chang Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 3:36 PM I know of five in Chicago. Patti S. Gregory Chang Sent from my I Phone On Nov 18, 2010, at 3:16 PM, "James Weisberg" wrote: > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment.  I would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely.  FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1  blind or statutorily blind; > 2  unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3  receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you.  Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pattichang%40att.n et _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritec h.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 00:15:06 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:15:06 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: <7C8FEADCFFF24F43AC0907C20FC54FE9@Blind> How's "Supervising Attorney" for a Berkeley clinic, Pro Bono work in Southern Florida before the immigration court at Krome detention center, Superior Court in Cali a few months back, also pro bono (all successful outcomes unfortunately people do not go to blind attorneys with money if they can go to sighted ones!) That's not my prejudice just my experience. I've litigated for over ten years, state, federal, administrative BS hearings and have been VERY successful . . . but I live on 1300/month in disability. Open and office on that and on top of that demand a deserved retainer! Not realistic. How's it sound now? Like I'm not putting forth the effort??? -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:00 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I guess many of us on the list are exceptions and I certainly do not come from money. Are you saying that you are a top tier Berkeley Grad? If so, maybe you aren't putting forth the effort to practice law. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:55 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Karla Gilbride Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind attorneys are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off the top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), and I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should chat further off-list about your specific concerns. Best, Karla Gilbride -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr alegal.org _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Fri Nov 19 00:31:46 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:31:46 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:59 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue (JMD) [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 3:23 PM To: Maurer, Patricia; 'nijc at aol.com'; 'nlove at opd.state.md.us'; 'nmcconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noryrp at cox.net'; 'nowaczej at staff.abanet.org'; 'nromulus at gmail.com'; 'ntb at boglechang.com'; 'nwpatton at law.stanford.edu'; 'nwright at lockelord.com'; 'ocaaba at cox.net'; 'omanager at lawyerscomm.org'; 'padilla at ailc-inc.org'; 'palsd at hotmail.com'; 'patel at fr.com'; 'pchanster at yahoo.com'; 'pchapman at koonz.com'; 'petricha at staff.abanet.org'; 'pgodar at fbtlaw.com'; 'pgrewal at daycasebeer.com'; Maurer, Patricia; 'pmorrison at state.wv.us'; 'poppy.johnston at unlv.edu'; 'president at abaw.org'; 'president at adc.org'; 'president at apaba-dc.org'; 'president at apabala.org'; 'president at blackwomenlawyersla.org'; 'president at dominicanbarassociation.org'; 'president at mabl.org'; 'president at msba.org'; 'president at phillybarrristers.org'; 'president at sabadc.org'; 'president at southasianbar.org'; 'rbreiter at law.miami.edu' Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 11-SDFL-AUSA-02 (AUSA - TERM APPT) Announcement is open until filled. Date posted: 11-16-2010 * UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF NEVADA ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY LAS VEGAS, NEVADA ANNOUNCEMENT # 11-NV-01-A OPENS: 11/15/2010 CLOSES: 11/29/2010 To receive consideration for this vacancy, resumes must be received by 5:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time on the closing date of this announcement. 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Date posted: 11-10-2010 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR UNITED STATES TRUSTEES WASHINGTON, DC TRIAL ATTORNEY, GS-905-15 ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: 10-46-14001 Applications must be postmarked by the closing date of November 19, 2010. Date posted: 11-10-2010 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEY, GS-13/14/15 WASHINGTON, D.C. 11-CRM-AFML-005 All applications must be received November 24, 2010. Date posted: 11-10-2010 * ASSISTANT DEPUTY CHIEF, GS-15 U .S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING SECTION WASHINGTON, D.C. 11-CRM-AFML-004 All applications must be received November 24, 2010. Date posted: 11-10-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT # 11-WDTX-346354-AUSA-02A The closing date for this announcement is November 17, 2010. Date posted: 11-10-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT 11-WDTX-351238-AUSA-03A The closing date for this announcement is November 17, 2010. Date posted: 11-10-2010 * ATTORNEY-ADVISOR GS-905-14/15 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. OIG-2010-91 WASHINGTON, DC Closing Date: December 20, 1010 Date posted: 11-10-2010 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From joramsey at cox.net Fri Nov 19 02:37:57 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 21:37:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <2A8BEEA58F9F41598A4AEDFAE6E6981F@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server><4BD690EA3FD041858177AAD81A10B8DB@noneeb869fea9a> <2A8BEEA58F9F41598A4AEDFAE6E6981F@Blind> Message-ID: <941E59C961C541EDA8CD51948DDEC239@noneeb869fea9a> I was blind before my first job and before entering law school. In fact, I went blind the summer before law school and had to learn to live as a blind man and learn to be a blind law student. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:07 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Interesting John: I too just last year was practicing in Boca doing immigration work. Let me ask you this, were you blind before or after you received you first job? Are you a solo? Curious. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 2:39 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Hello Dennis: I too am puzzled by his statement. I am a blind lawyer and in private practice here in Florida. If we as blind people follow this kind of logic, we would all still be living in nursing homes or even worse. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those > with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful > activity; and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 02:43:56 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:43:56 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <941E59C961C541EDA8CD51948DDEC239@noneeb869fea9a> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server><4BD690EA3FD041858177AAD81A10B8DB@noneeb869fea9a><2A8BEEA58F9F41598A4AEDFAE6E6981F@Blind> <941E59C961C541EDA8CD51948DDEC239@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <4FC78C4443684CF3B4DAE73AB7FB333E@Blind> Hey John: Same here basically, lost the sight as a high school drop out and then went on from there. Best~ -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:38 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I was blind before my first job and before entering law school. In fact, I went blind the summer before law school and had to learn to live as a blind man and learn to be a blind law student. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:07 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Interesting John: I too just last year was practicing in Boca doing immigration work. Let me ask you this, were you blind before or after you received you first job? Are you a solo? Curious. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 2:39 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Hello Dennis: I too am puzzled by his statement. I am a blind lawyer and in private practice here in Florida. If we as blind people follow this kind of logic, we would all still be living in nursing homes or even worse. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those > with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful > activity; and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 19 02:56:07 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:56:07 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <7C8FEADCFFF24F43AC0907C20FC54FE9@Blind> Message-ID: <0f6301cb8795$512de430$6601a8c0@server> Hello James, Clearly you are frustrated, I fully understand that, and for anyone else to tell you that you should not be is judging you without knowing about your personal experiences. There is no question that there is tremendous discrimination in the legal field, because the law firms understand the discrimination laws and are expert at circumventing them. Regardless, this is the world in which we must function and try to succeed, and I think there is opportunity in the discrimination we are all encountering. One characteristic that I have noticed with successful people, is that they more often than not have created their own opportunities, by building on their own talents and limitations. When I am feeling discouraged, I try to remind myself about the employment possibilities which faced black attorneys such as Thurgood Marshal in the 1940's. Employment with large firms was not possible for these black attorneys regardless of how talented or bright they might have been. None the less, Thurgood Marshal did succeed, mostly by filing civil rights cases for blacks and helping to build the NAACP Legal Defense Fund into a formidable institution. My opinion is that most of the success that blacks enjoy today is a direct result of the work done by the Legal Defense Fund. As blind attorneys, we have that opportunity as well simply by following Thurgood Marshal's roadmap, if we would simply pool our talents and just do it. My personal opinion is that discrimination in both education and all areas of employment has become much worse for blind people following the passage of the ADA. The good news here, is that if there is to be any improvement in our lives it will be as a result of blind lawyers fighting for the civil rights of blind people. We unlike non lawyers, can force our opponents to deal with us, because we have the power to drag them into court, and when we succeed they will be paying our legal expenses. Another characteristic of successful people is that they will not take no for an answer and they never quit no matter how difficult the road ahead nor no matter how many doors are slammed in their faces. This kind of inner strength is very difficult to muster and maintain, particularly when there is no support system in place to help us get reenergized. Unfortunately as blind people we do not support one another and as a result we do not have such a support system to turn to. Instead when one of our blind brethren admits that he or she is having a problem related to blindness, they will be attacked, not supported. I am not aware of any other minority groups which do this. the attack chorus always sings the same self serving song, and the lyrics goes that the person in need of assistance is to blame and has not spent enough of their life learning blindness skills, which in my opinion translates into the silly notion that the blind person hasn't become sighted enough. The aspect of this which is most amusing to me, if amusement can be found at all, is that upon inspection, those leading the attack and singing the loudest, have usually accomplished almost nothing other than spending their time trying to become sighted using technology. My thinking is that as blind people we can either choose to accept the limitations which are inherent to blindness and become successful anyway, or we can spend all our waking hours trying to become "independent" by developing blindness skills in an effort to make us as close to being sighted as is possible using technology. If there are other lawyers on this list who feel similarly to me, please contact me off list. I would like to do something about our situation, by learning from the successes of other minorities. All of us who are blind should be clear that the problem we face as lawyers is that there is too much legal work to do, not that there is too little work. We are privileged to be lawyers, so let's take on the challenge. Let's find strength and success in friendship, support, and optimistic collective action. We are lawyers, we have power, so lets use it to help one another and all who are blind. Let's talk and see what we can do together. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > How's "Supervising Attorney" for a Berkeley clinic, Pro Bono work in > Southern Florida before the immigration court at Krome detention center, > Superior Court in Cali a few months back, also pro bono (all successful > outcomes unfortunately people do not go to blind attorneys with money if > they can go to sighted ones!) That's not my prejudice just my experience. > I've litigated for over ten years, state, federal, administrative BS > hearings and have been VERY successful . . . but I live on 1300/month in > disability. Open and office on that and on top of that demand a deserved > retainer! Not realistic. How's it sound now? Like I'm not putting forth > the effort??? > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of John Ramsey > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:00 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > I guess many of us on the list are exceptions and I certainly do not come > from money. Are you saying that you are a top tier Berkeley Grad? If so, > maybe you aren't putting forth the effort to practice law. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:55 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job > offers > despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low > numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to > discuss. > My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to > not > waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever > getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT > IS! > But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the > time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Karla Gilbride > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > James, > > I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind > attorneys > are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off > the > top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), > and > I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should > chat > further off-list about your specific concerns. > > Best, > Karla Gilbride > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. > rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr > alegal.org > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 03:12:45 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 19:12:45 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <0f6301cb8795$512de430$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><7C8FEADCFFF24F43AC0907C20FC54FE9@Blind> <0f6301cb8795$512de430$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <92976620071641CB997997A473C11365@Blind> You Dennis are an obviously insightful individual. I agree one-hundred percent with your post!! I have found that I have been able to litigate more than a hundred bench trials, a dozen jury trials and several matters on the state appellate level despite my peers prejudices. I even learned right away if I put retirement age women in the jury pool my yellow lab guide dog has more influence than any testimony I could possibly elicit!! FACT. I have always been very successful though will admit to the rare loss (a true benefit to being able to select your cases because you do pro bono work!). I currently am applying for government work and still maintain that is the place to search, the private sector is just too difficult to "roll the dice" on considering the cost and effort a law degree requires. Although I do have to admit I had opened my own practice after law school (you know where you charge client's for your services - found a perfect market; i.e., no attorneys for hours but alas it was all lost in a divorce!) Since then I'm Mr. Pro Bono . . . Sonny's distance cousin. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:56 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Hello James, Clearly you are frustrated, I fully understand that, and for anyone else to tell you that you should not be is judging you without knowing about your personal experiences. There is no question that there is tremendous discrimination in the legal field, because the law firms understand the discrimination laws and are expert at circumventing them. Regardless, this is the world in which we must function and try to succeed, and I think there is opportunity in the discrimination we are all encountering. One characteristic that I have noticed with successful people, is that they more often than not have created their own opportunities, by building on their own talents and limitations. When I am feeling discouraged, I try to remind myself about the employment possibilities which faced black attorneys such as Thurgood Marshal in the 1940's. Employment with large firms was not possible for these black attorneys regardless of how talented or bright they might have been. None the less, Thurgood Marshal did succeed, mostly by filing civil rights cases for blacks and helping to build the NAACP Legal Defense Fund into a formidable institution. My opinion is that most of the success that blacks enjoy today is a direct result of the work done by the Legal Defense Fund. As blind attorneys, we have that opportunity as well simply by following Thurgood Marshal's roadmap, if we would simply pool our talents and just do it. My personal opinion is that discrimination in both education and all areas of employment has become much worse for blind people following the passage of the ADA. The good news here, is that if there is to be any improvement in our lives it will be as a result of blind lawyers fighting for the civil rights of blind people. We unlike non lawyers, can force our opponents to deal with us, because we have the power to drag them into court, and when we succeed they will be paying our legal expenses. Another characteristic of successful people is that they will not take no for an answer and they never quit no matter how difficult the road ahead nor no matter how many doors are slammed in their faces. This kind of inner strength is very difficult to muster and maintain, particularly when there is no support system in place to help us get reenergized. Unfortunately as blind people we do not support one another and as a result we do not have such a support system to turn to. Instead when one of our blind brethren admits that he or she is having a problem related to blindness, they will be attacked, not supported. I am not aware of any other minority groups which do this. the attack chorus always sings the same self serving song, and the lyrics goes that the person in need of assistance is to blame and has not spent enough of their life learning blindness skills, which in my opinion translates into the silly notion that the blind person hasn't become sighted enough. The aspect of this which is most amusing to me, if amusement can be found at all, is that upon inspection, those leading the attack and singing the loudest, have usually accomplished almost nothing other than spending their time trying to become sighted using technology. My thinking is that as blind people we can either choose to accept the limitations which are inherent to blindness and become successful anyway, or we can spend all our waking hours trying to become "independent" by developing blindness skills in an effort to make us as close to being sighted as is possible using technology. If there are other lawyers on this list who feel similarly to me, please contact me off list. I would like to do something about our situation, by learning from the successes of other minorities. All of us who are blind should be clear that the problem we face as lawyers is that there is too much legal work to do, not that there is too little work. We are privileged to be lawyers, so let's take on the challenge. Let's find strength and success in friendship, support, and optimistic collective action. We are lawyers, we have power, so lets use it to help one another and all who are blind. Let's talk and see what we can do together. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > How's "Supervising Attorney" for a Berkeley clinic, Pro Bono work in > Southern Florida before the immigration court at Krome detention center, > Superior Court in Cali a few months back, also pro bono (all successful > outcomes unfortunately people do not go to blind attorneys with money if > they can go to sighted ones!) That's not my prejudice just my experience. > I've litigated for over ten years, state, federal, administrative BS > hearings and have been VERY successful . . . but I live on 1300/month in > disability. Open and office on that and on top of that demand a deserved > retainer! Not realistic. How's it sound now? Like I'm not putting forth > the effort??? > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of John Ramsey > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:00 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > I guess many of us on the list are exceptions and I certainly do not come > from money. Are you saying that you are a top tier Berkeley Grad? If so, > maybe you aren't putting forth the effort to practice law. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:55 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job > offers > despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low > numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to > discuss. > My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to > not > waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever > getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT > IS! > But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the > time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Karla Gilbride > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > James, > > I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind > attorneys > are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off > the > top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), > and > I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should > chat > further off-list about your specific concerns. > > Best, > Karla Gilbride > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. > rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr > alegal.org > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From dandrews at visi.com Fri Nov 19 10:25:37 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 04:25:37 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: James: I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind persons in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my evidence is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind lawyers, who are working. From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good right now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the bad economy penalty. Dave At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. From mfhurley at optonline.net Fri Nov 19 15:13:34 2010 From: mfhurley at optonline.net (mfhurley at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:13:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <353229.94256.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net> <353229.94256.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What is the percentage of blind lawyers in paying postions to the total pool of blind lawyers trying to get jobs and can't? Citing a few examples here and there is not really taking into account how hard it is for a disabled person to get a position. ----- Original Message ----- From: denise avant Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:05 pm Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > hi, > there are several blind attorneys not only in Chicago but > throughout the united states, who are successfully practicing > law either in the private sector or with various local, state > and federal government agencies. These lawyers went through law > school using alternative techniques, such as using Braille, > adaptive equipment and readers. Using these same techniques, > these lawyers took and passed the bar examination. Using these > same techniques, these lawyers have been successful in their > legal career. so don't think for one minute being blind is any > hinderance to becoming a successful practicing attorney. > > --- On Thu, 11/18/10, Patti Chang wrote: > > > From: Patti Chang > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 3:36 PM > > > I know of five in Chicago. > > Patti S. Gregory Chang > Sent from my I Phone > > On Nov 18, 2010, at 3:16 PM, "James Weisberg" > law at dc.rr.com> wrote: > > > Curious: > > > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED > at all???? > > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to > employment. I would > > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those > with vision > > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw- > bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial > gainful activity; > > and > > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > > > Dan > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi- > law%40dc.rr.c> om > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pattichang%40att.net > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritech.net > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonline.net > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mfhurley.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 101 bytes Desc: Card for URL: From mfhurley at optonline.net Fri Nov 19 15:28:44 2010 From: mfhurley at optonline.net (mfhurley at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:28:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with Dennis' post wholeheartedly. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > James: > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > persons > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > evidence > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > lawyers, > who are working. > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > right > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > bad > economy penalty. > > Dave > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > ZERO job offers > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > extremely low > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > to discuss. > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > career is to not > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > than ever > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > THE WAY IT IS! > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > invest the > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonline.net > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mfhurley.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 101 bytes Desc: Card for URL: From dravant at ameritech.net Fri Nov 19 16:02:32 2010 From: dravant at ameritech.net (denise avant) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:02:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <683934.81560.qm@web81903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello James, I have been blind since birth. like so many others, i wanted to practice law because i genuinely like it. of course one needs to make a living whether you do private work or work for the government. Bby seeking to practice, we can hope to change people's opinions about what blind people can do. This was tue of African Americans and women, and other minorities in the country. we cannot set aside our ambitions because of discriminatory practices. After all, there are employers out there willing to take a chance and hire blind lawyers. and if you don't pursue your goal, you will definitely never find them and they will not find you either. --- On Thu, 11/18/10, James Weisberg wrote: From: James Weisberg Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 5:55 PM Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever getting an offer of employment.  Now if you come from money, forget everything I have said and just open your own firm!  THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! But there are always EXCEPTIONS.  I personally wouldn't want to invest the time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Karla Gilbride Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind attorneys are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off the top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), and I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should chat further off-list about your specific concerns. Best, Karla Gilbride -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment.  I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely.  FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1  blind or statutorily blind; 2  unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3  receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you.  Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr alegal.org _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritech.net From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 16:36:35 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:36:35 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: I think I agree with your belief concerning other markets for blind persons. Having said that I recognize this fact as a reason for seeking a profession not requiring such an investment in sweat and money to earn your credentials. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 2:26 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James: I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind persons in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my evidence is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind lawyers, who are working. From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good right now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the bad economy penalty. Dave At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 16:37:27 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:37:27 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net><353229.94256.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Agreed! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:14 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Cc: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys What is the percentage of blind lawyers in paying postions to the total pool of blind lawyers trying to get jobs and can't? Citing a few examples here and there is not really taking into account how hard it is for a disabled person to get a position. ----- Original Message ----- From: denise avant Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:05 pm Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > hi, > there are several blind attorneys not only in Chicago but > throughout the united states, who are successfully practicing > law either in the private sector or with various local, state > and federal government agencies. These lawyers went through law > school using alternative techniques, such as using Braille, > adaptive equipment and readers. Using these same techniques, > these lawyers took and passed the bar examination. Using these > same techniques, these lawyers have been successful in their > legal career. so don't think for one minute being blind is any > hinderance to becoming a successful practicing attorney. > > --- On Thu, 11/18/10, Patti Chang wrote: > > > From: Patti Chang > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 3:36 PM > > > I know of five in Chicago. > > Patti S. Gregory Chang > Sent from my I Phone > > On Nov 18, 2010, at 3:16 PM, "James Weisberg" > law at dc.rr.com> wrote: > > > Curious: > > > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED > at all???? > > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to > employment. I would > > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those > with vision > > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw- > bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial > gainful activity; > > and > > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > > > Dan > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi- > law%40dc.rr.c> om > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pattichang%40att.n et > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritec h.net > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 16:48:09 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:48:09 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who are blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless they can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because my point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I have been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers who were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to "astronomical." *smile* -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with Dennis' post wholeheartedly. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > James: > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > persons > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > evidence > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > lawyers, > who are working. > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > right > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > bad > economy penalty. > > Dave > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > ZERO job offers > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > extremely low > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > to discuss. > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > career is to not > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > than ever > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > THE WAY IT IS! > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > invest the > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 16:49:41 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:49:41 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <683934.81560.qm@web81903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <683934.81560.qm@web81903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <061FFCC9014A4CA5BAD227FF8A92FE07@Blind> Hello Denise: Please read my last post and you will see you have mistaken or I have mis-communicated my point. Regards~ -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of denise avant Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:03 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Hello James, I have been blind since birth. like so many others, i wanted to practice law because i genuinely like it. of course one needs to make a living whether you do private work or work for the government. Bby seeking to practice, we can hope to change people's opinions about what blind people can do. This was tue of African Americans and women, and other minorities in the country. we cannot set aside our ambitions because of discriminatory practices. After all, there are employers out there willing to take a chance and hire blind lawyers. and if you don't pursue your goal, you will definitely never find them and they will not find you either. --- On Thu, 11/18/10, James Weisberg wrote: From: James Weisberg Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 5:55 PM Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever getting an offer of employment.  Now if you come from money, forget everything I have said and just open your own firm!  THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! But there are always EXCEPTIONS.  I personally wouldn't want to invest the time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Karla Gilbride Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind attorneys are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off the top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), and I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should chat further off-list about your specific concerns. Best, Karla Gilbride -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment.  I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely.  FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1  blind or statutorily blind; 2  unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3  receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you.  Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr alegal.org _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritec h.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 19 17:26:57 2010 From: goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net (Sarah Clark) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:26:57 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> Message-ID: <004801cb880f$1c7640f0$6701a8c0@computer2> I think a crucial element is whether a student utilizes the opportunity to take summer associate positions while in law school. The blind lawyers that I know of (who were blind before law school) had jobs as summer associates, which led to job offers from those firms at the conclusion of the summer. Even if you do a summer job on a volunteer basis, as I know one person in particular did, if you show your worth during the summer, you will likely end up with a job offer at the end. Of course, the quality of the law school you attend is a tremendous factor -- the better the law school, and the better your grades in that all important first year, the better the summer positions available. My husband, who attended a top 5 law school, said that all students he knew of received offers of employment at the conclusion of their summer associate jobs, and if you didn't, it reflected poorly on you. Sarah Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who > are > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless > they > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my > calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because > my > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I > have > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers > who > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to > "astronomical." > *smile* > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree > with > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Andrews > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > >> James: >> >> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >> persons >> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >> evidence >> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >> lawyers, >> who are working. >> >> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >> right >> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >> bad >> economy penalty. >> >> Dave >> >> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >> ZERO job offers >> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >> extremely low >> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >> to discuss. >> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >> career is to not >> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >> than ever >> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >> THE WAY IT IS! >> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >> invest the >> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > ne.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcglobal.net From mfhurley at optonline.net Fri Nov 19 18:32:20 2010 From: mfhurley at optonline.net (mfhurley at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 18:32:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <004801cb880f$1c7640f0$6701a8c0@computer2> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <004801cb880f$1c7640f0$6701a8c0@computer2> Message-ID: and I know of a blind law student that was offered a summer associate position and not offered a position after law school....the reason being that the summer associate position was a "token position" to assuage or rather show the firm's benevolence.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Clark Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > I think a crucial element is whether a student utilizes the > opportunity to > take summer associate positions while in law school. The blind > lawyers that > I know of (who were blind before law school) had jobs as summer > associates, > which led to job offers from those firms at the conclusion of > the summer. > Even if you do a summer job on a volunteer basis, as I know one > person in > particular did, if you show your worth during the summer, you > will likely > end up with a job offer at the end. Of course, the quality of > the law > school you attend is a tremendous factor -- the better the law > school, and > the better your grades in that all important first year, the > better the > summer positions available. My husband, who attended a top 5 > law school, > said that all students he knew of received offers of employment > at the > conclusion of their summer associate jobs, and if you didn't, it > reflected > poorly on you. > > Sarah Clark > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > >I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments > below again now, > > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had > been employed > > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from > those who > > are > > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a > rep unless > > they > > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind > lawyers in my > > calculation if they lost their sight after they were > established because > > my > > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I > know as I > > have > > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort > for the > > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means > go for > > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the > numbers on blind > > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed > blind lawyers > > who > > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to > > "astronomical." > > *smile* > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw- > bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. > I agree > > with > > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David Andrews > > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > >> James: > >> > >> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > >> persons > >> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > >> evidence > >> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > >> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > >> lawyers, > >> who are working. > >> > >> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > >> right > >> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > >> bad > >> economy penalty. > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > >> ZERO job offers > >> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > >> extremely low > >> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > >> to discuss. > >> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > >> career is to not > >> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance > statistically,>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the > way to law class > >> than ever > >> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > >> THE WAY IT IS! > >> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > >> invest the > >> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an > exception.>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info for blindlaw: > >> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli> ne.net > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonline.net > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mfhurley.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 101 bytes Desc: Card for URL: From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 20:29:10 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:29:10 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <004801cb880f$1c7640f0$6701a8c0@computer2> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <004801cb880f$1c7640f0$6701a8c0@computer2> Message-ID: <862CF348F90D45B3A3E159C6FA1DB4B9@Blind> My experience also. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Clark Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 9:27 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I think a crucial element is whether a student utilizes the opportunity to take summer associate positions while in law school. The blind lawyers that I know of (who were blind before law school) had jobs as summer associates, which led to job offers from those firms at the conclusion of the summer. Even if you do a summer job on a volunteer basis, as I know one person in particular did, if you show your worth during the summer, you will likely end up with a job offer at the end. Of course, the quality of the law school you attend is a tremendous factor -- the better the law school, and the better your grades in that all important first year, the better the summer positions available. My husband, who attended a top 5 law school, said that all students he knew of received offers of employment at the conclusion of their summer associate jobs, and if you didn't, it reflected poorly on you. Sarah Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who > are > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless > they > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my > calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because > my > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I > have > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers > who > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to > "astronomical." > *smile* > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree > with > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Andrews > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > >> James: >> >> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >> persons >> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >> evidence >> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >> lawyers, >> who are working. >> >> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >> right >> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >> bad >> economy penalty. >> >> Dave >> >> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >> ZERO job offers >> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >> extremely low >> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >> to discuss. >> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >> career is to not >> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >> than ever >> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >> THE WAY IT IS! >> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >> invest the >> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > ne.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgl obal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 20:30:22 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:30:22 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><004801cb880f$1c7640f0$6701a8c0@computer2> Message-ID: Not surprising. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of person could drive such a "scheme." -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:32 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys and I know of a blind law student that was offered a summer associate position and not offered a position after law school....the reason being that the summer associate position was a "token position" to assuage or rather show the firm's benevolence.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Clark Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > I think a crucial element is whether a student utilizes the > opportunity to > take summer associate positions while in law school. The blind > lawyers that > I know of (who were blind before law school) had jobs as summer > associates, > which led to job offers from those firms at the conclusion of > the summer. > Even if you do a summer job on a volunteer basis, as I know one > person in > particular did, if you show your worth during the summer, you > will likely > end up with a job offer at the end. Of course, the quality of > the law > school you attend is a tremendous factor -- the better the law > school, and > the better your grades in that all important first year, the > better the > summer positions available. My husband, who attended a top 5 > law school, > said that all students he knew of received offers of employment > at the > conclusion of their summer associate jobs, and if you didn't, it > reflected > poorly on you. > > Sarah Clark > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > >I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments > below again now, > > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had > been employed > > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from > those who > > are > > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a > rep unless > > they > > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind > lawyers in my > > calculation if they lost their sight after they were > established because > > my > > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I > know as I > > have > > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort > for the > > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means > go for > > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the > numbers on blind > > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed > blind lawyers > > who > > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to > > "astronomical." > > *smile* > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw- > bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. > I agree > > with > > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David Andrews > > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > >> James: > >> > >> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > >> persons > >> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > >> evidence > >> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > >> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > >> lawyers, > >> who are working. > >> > >> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > >> right > >> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > >> bad > >> economy penalty. > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > >> ZERO job offers > >> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > >> extremely low > >> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > >> to discuss. > >> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > >> career is to not > >> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance > statistically,>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the > way to law class > >> than ever > >> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > >> THE WAY IT IS! > >> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > >> invest the > >> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an > exception.>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info for blindlaw: > >> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > ne.net > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgl obal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Fri Nov 19 21:27:34 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:27:34 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> Message-ID: James: I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on target. I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I now practice for the federal government. I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at private firms. I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers of employment to practice in the private sector. Noel Nightingale -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who are blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless they can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because my point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I have been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers who were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to "astronomical." *smile* -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with Dennis' post wholeheartedly. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > James: > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > persons > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > evidence > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > lawyers, > who are working. > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > right > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > bad > economy penalty. > > Dave > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > ZERO job offers > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > extremely low > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > to discuss. > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > career is to not > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > than ever > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > THE WAY IT IS! > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > invest the > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sat Nov 20 01:56:35 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 17:56:35 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> Message-ID: <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the "lucky" one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as I believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and law degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview with the Fed myself! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James: I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on target. I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I now practice for the federal government. I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at private firms. I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers of employment to practice in the private sector. Noel Nightingale -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who are blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless they can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because my point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I have been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers who were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to "astronomical." *smile* -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with Dennis' post wholeheartedly. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > James: > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > persons > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > evidence > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > lawyers, > who are working. > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > right > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > bad > economy penalty. > > Dave > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > ZERO job offers > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > extremely low > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > to discuss. > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > career is to not > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > than ever > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > THE WAY IT IS! > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > invest the > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 0ed.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From agtolentino at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 20:13:49 2010 From: agtolentino at gmail.com (Aser Tolentino) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 12:13:49 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability though many in my class have found it difficult to find work. On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg wrote: > My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort > of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the > "lucky" > one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as > I > believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and law > degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview with > the Fed myself! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > James: > > I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on > target. > > I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a > nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work > during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I > now > practice for the federal government. > > I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at > private firms. > > I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience > tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers > of employment to practice in the private sector. > > Noel Nightingale > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who > are > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless > they > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my > calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because my > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I > have > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers > who > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to "astronomical." > *smile* > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Andrews > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > James: > > > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > > persons > > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > > evidence > > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > > lawyers, > > who are working. > > > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > > right > > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > > bad > > economy penalty. > > > > Dave > > > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > > ZERO job offers > > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > > extremely low > > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > > to discuss. > > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > > career is to not > > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > > than ever > > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > > THE WAY IT IS! > > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > > invest the > > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info for blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > ne.net > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 > 0ed.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 20 21:24:16 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:24:16 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> Hello Aser, Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I > learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability > though > many in my class have found it difficult to find work. > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg > wrote: > >> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >> effort >> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >> "lucky" >> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >> as >> I >> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >> law >> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >> with >> the Fed myself! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> James: >> >> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >> target. >> >> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >> now >> practice for the federal government. >> >> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >> private firms. >> >> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >> offers >> of employment to practice in the private sector. >> >> Noel Nightingale >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >> now, >> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >> employed >> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >> are >> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >> they >> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >> my >> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >> have >> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >> blind >> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >> who >> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >> "astronomical." >> *smile* >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >> with >> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: David Andrews >> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >> > James: >> > >> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >> > persons >> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >> > evidence >> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >> > lawyers, >> > who are working. >> > >> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >> > right >> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >> > bad >> > economy penalty. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >> > ZERO job offers >> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >> > extremely low >> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >> > to discuss. >> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >> > career is to not >> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >> > than ever >> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >> > THE WAY IT IS! >> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >> > invest the >> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > info for blindlaw: >> > >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >> ne.net >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >> 0ed.gov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sat Nov 20 21:50:43 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:50:43 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject) Message-ID: Congrats Aser! James W. Weisberg, Esq. Law Office of J. William Weisberg Palm Springs, California 92262 V: 760-832-6804 F: 888-841-1924 E-Mail: jimi-law at dc.rr.com Admitted in Wisconsin, Federal District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin, Federal District Court for the Northern District of Florida, and the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals Nationwide Practice Limited to Immigration Removal Defense & ADA Advocacy This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in this message. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message from your system. This exchange of information does not create an attorney-client relationship nor does it constitute legal advice. The Law Office of J. William Weisberg expects the recipient will independently evaluate this information in accordance with this disclaimer. From agtolentino at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 00:59:15 2010 From: agtolentino at gmail.com (Aser Tolentino) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 16:59:15 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: Hi Dennis, I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer positions. Best, Aser On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hello Aser, > Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in > California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. > All the best, > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >> though >> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >> wrote: >> >> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> > James: >>> > >>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> > persons >>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> > evidence >>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> > lawyers, >>> > who are working. >>> > >>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> > right >>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> > bad >>> > economy penalty. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> > ZERO job offers >>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> > extremely low >>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> > to discuss. >>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> > career is to not >>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> > than ever >>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> > invest the >>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > info for blindlaw: >>> > >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net< >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli%0Ane.net >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om< >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c%0Aom >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > From rumpole at roadrunner.com Sun Nov 21 15:19:57 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 10:19:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and do it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed at those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on the blind, much less blind lawyers. Everyone here has a valid point to make. I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 and your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges as put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in spite of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United States. There are times I doubt that premise. So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay transportation out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA if you can afford that kind of transportation. Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if you try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, lets hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal malpractice. Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS SGA regulations and not even know it until it is too late. How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are blind. To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their services for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have to put up with. Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under good conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those of you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to fix the depression that we are in. When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with that observation? So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously planning to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally forestall overall job availability on a national scale. This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that area as well. I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then again neither do the economists. My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out there and its going to stay that way for a while. If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that requires a lot of assistance to get a job. Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only to a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it that way is just kidding ourselves. Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and my wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment rate, and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the Republicans or the independents. Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted counterpart? Of course it is. Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. Solving the problem is the real issue. Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? "The views expressed in this email are only mine" Ross ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Hi Dennis, > I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my > experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With > budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer > positions. > > Best, > Aser > > On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark > wrote: > >> Hello Aser, >> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >> All the best, >> Dennis >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >> > > >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>> though >>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>> wrote: >>> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>> effort >>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>> "lucky" >>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>>> as >>>> I >>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>>> law >>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>> with >>>> the Fed myself! >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>> target. >>>> >>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>> I >>>> now >>>> practice for the federal government. >>>> >>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>>> at >>>> private firms. >>>> >>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>> offers >>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>> >>>> Noel Nightingale >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>> now, >>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>> employed >>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>> who >>>> are >>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>>> they >>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>>> my >>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>> because >>>> my >>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>>> have >>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>> blind >>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>> lawyers >>>> who >>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>> "astronomical." >>>> *smile* >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>> with >>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>> > James: >>>> > >>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>> > persons >>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>> > evidence >>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>> > lawyers, >>>> > who are working. >>>> > >>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>> > right >>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>> > bad >>>> > economy penalty. >>>> > >>>> > Dave >>>> > >>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>> > ZERO job offers >>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>> > extremely low >>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>> > to discuss. >>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>> > career is to not >>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>> > than ever >>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>> > invest the >>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>> > >exception. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>> ne.net< >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli%0Ane.net >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>> 0ed.gov >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> om< >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c%0Aom >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 07:34:00 From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 16:10:27 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 09:10:27 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> Ross, I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough about the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. That said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started this all, in case some have forgotten: Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with vision issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say that these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal profession altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome the very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. It's another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, given the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I think the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the response has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but it's not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an appropriate response to me. If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the belief that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue that there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult for blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt you will find any disagreement on this list. Best, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a > glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to > the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. > The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of > laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and do > it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed at > those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. > If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among > qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel > for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on the > blind, much less blind lawyers. > Everyone here has a valid point to make. > I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. > Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 and > your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges as > put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in spite > of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United > States. > There are times I doubt that premise. > So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. > Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it > can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE > requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in > states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for > doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for > Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to > your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay transportation > out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA > if you can afford that kind of transportation. > Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if you > try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, lets > hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because > after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw > subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal > malpractice. > Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? > Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work > deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? > I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're > going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of > some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST > report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there > skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS SGA > regulations and not even know it until it is too late. > How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? > The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are > blind. > To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular > situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for > years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their services > for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a > "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have to > put up with. > Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so > don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they > work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. > Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all > of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. > It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under good > conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those of > you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on > top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I > mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. > Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to > fix the depression that we are in. > When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with that > observation? > So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to > cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand > federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not > withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the > number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously planning > to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally forestall > overall job availability on a national scale. > This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local > governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. > then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that > area as well. > I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then > again neither do the economists. > My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out > there and its going to stay that way for a while. > If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be > viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy > blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that > requires a lot of assistance to get a job. > Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only to > a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it > that way is just kidding ourselves. > Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. > That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My > take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and my > wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, > our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. > Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment rate, > and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the > State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the > Republicans or the independents. > Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. > So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted > counterpart? > Of course it is. > Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. > Solving the problem is the real issue. > Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? > "The views expressed in this email are only mine" > > Ross > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Hi Dennis, >> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >> positions. >> >> Best, >> Aser >> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Aser, >>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>> All the best, >>> Dennis >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>> >> > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>> though >>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>> effort >>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>> "lucky" >>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>> sector >>>>> as >>>>> I >>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>> and >>>>> law >>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>>> with >>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>>> target. >>>>> >>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>>> I >>>>> now >>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>> >>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>>>> at >>>>> private firms. >>>>> >>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>> experience >>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>> offers >>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>> >>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>>> now, >>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>> employed >>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>> who >>>>> are >>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>> unless >>>>> they >>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>>>> my >>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>> because >>>>> my >>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as >>>>> I >>>>> have >>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>> blind >>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>> lawyers >>>>> who >>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>> "astronomical." >>>>> *smile* >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>>> with >>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> >>>>> > James: >>>>> > >>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> > persons >>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> > evidence >>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> > lawyers, >>>>> > who are working. >>>>> > >>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> > right >>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> > bad >>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>> > >>>>> > Dave >>>>> > >>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> > extremely low >>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> > to discuss. >>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> > career is to not >>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> > than ever >>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> > invest the >>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>> > >exception. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>> ne.net< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli%0Ane.net >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>> om< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c%0Aom >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 > 07:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 16:46:30 2010 From: carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com (Kate Carroll) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 11:46:30 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: Congratulations, Aser!.(on the Bar of course, not the unemployment ;) On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Aser Tolentino wrote: > I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I > learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability > though > many in my class have found it difficult to find work. > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg > wrote: > > > My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the > effort > > of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the > > "lucky" > > one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector > as > > I > > believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and > law > > degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview > with > > the Fed myself! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel > > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > James: > > > > I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on > > target. > > > > I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a > > nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work > > during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I > > now > > practice for the federal government. > > > > I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at > > private firms. > > > > I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience > > tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive > offers > > of employment to practice in the private sector. > > > > Noel Nightingale > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > Behalf Of James Weisberg > > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM > > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again > now, > > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been > employed > > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who > > are > > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless > > they > > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my > > calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because > my > > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I > > have > > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the > > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for > > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on > blind > > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers > > who > > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to > "astronomical." > > *smile* > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree > with > > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David Andrews > > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > > > James: > > > > > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > > > persons > > > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > > > evidence > > > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > > > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > > > lawyers, > > > who are working. > > > > > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > > > right > > > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > > > bad > > > economy penalty. > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > > > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > > > ZERO job offers > > > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > > > extremely low > > > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > > > to discuss. > > > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > > > career is to not > > > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > > > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > > > than ever > > > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > > > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > > > THE WAY IT IS! > > > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > > > invest the > > > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > > info for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > > ne.net< > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli%0Ane.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 > > 0ed.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > > om< > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c%0Aom > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > -- Kathryn CARROLL St. John's University College of Law 2013 631-521-3018 From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 19:04:10 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 11:04:10 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> <7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> Message-ID: <7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I was NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law student about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for you in case you just missed it: Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of obtaining the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law school or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that the blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer it does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" both financially and time-wise. The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is capable of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" responses to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own "issues?" Respectfully~ -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Ross, I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough about the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. That said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started this all, in case some have forgotten: Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with vision issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say that these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal profession altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome the very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. It's another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, given the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I think the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the response has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but it's not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an appropriate response to me. If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the belief that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue that there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult for blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt you will find any disagreement on this list. Best, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a > glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to > the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. > The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of > laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and do > it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed at > those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. > If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among > qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel > for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on the > blind, much less blind lawyers. > Everyone here has a valid point to make. > I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. > Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 and > your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges as > put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in spite > of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United > States. > There are times I doubt that premise. > So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. > Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it > can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE > requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in > states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for > doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for > Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to > your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay transportation > out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA > if you can afford that kind of transportation. > Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if you > try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, lets > hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because > after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw > subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal > malpractice. > Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? > Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work > deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? > I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're > going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of > some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST > report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there > skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS SGA > regulations and not even know it until it is too late. > How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? > The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are > blind. > To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular > situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for > years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their services > for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a > "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have to > put up with. > Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so > don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they > work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. > Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all > of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. > It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under good > conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those of > you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on > top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I > mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. > Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to > fix the depression that we are in. > When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with that > observation? > So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to > cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand > federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not > withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the > number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously planning > to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally forestall > overall job availability on a national scale. > This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local > governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. > then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that > area as well. > I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then > again neither do the economists. > My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out > there and its going to stay that way for a while. > If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be > viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy > blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that > requires a lot of assistance to get a job. > Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only to > a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it > that way is just kidding ourselves. > Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. > That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My > take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and my > wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, > our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. > Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment rate, > and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the > State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the > Republicans or the independents. > Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. > So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted > counterpart? > Of course it is. > Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. > Solving the problem is the real issue. > Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? > "The views expressed in this email are only mine" > > Ross > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Hi Dennis, >> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >> positions. >> >> Best, >> Aser >> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Aser, >>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>> All the best, >>> Dennis >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>> >> > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>> though >>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>> effort >>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>> "lucky" >>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>> sector >>>>> as >>>>> I >>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>> and >>>>> law >>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>>> with >>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>>> target. >>>>> >>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>>> I >>>>> now >>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>> >>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>>>> at >>>>> private firms. >>>>> >>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>> experience >>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>> offers >>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>> >>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>>> now, >>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>> employed >>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>> who >>>>> are >>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>> unless >>>>> they >>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>>>> my >>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>> because >>>>> my >>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as >>>>> I >>>>> have >>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>> blind >>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>> lawyers >>>>> who >>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>> "astronomical." >>>>> *smile* >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>>> with >>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> >>>>> > James: >>>>> > >>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> > persons >>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> > evidence >>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> > lawyers, >>>>> > who are working. >>>>> > >>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> > right >>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> > bad >>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>> > >>>>> > Dave >>>>> > >>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> > extremely low >>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> > to discuss. >>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> > career is to not >>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> > than ever >>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> > invest the >>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>> > >exception. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>> ne.net< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli %0Ane.net >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>> om< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c %0Aom >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn er.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 > 07:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 19:50:25 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:50:25 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server><7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> <7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> Message-ID: <939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken out of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, entirely within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were responding. It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is that assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm wrong, is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued that blind people ought to forego law school. In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses were to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession. Regards, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I was > NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law student > about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough > explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for you > in case you just missed it: > > Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of > obtaining > the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high > number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law > school > or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been > practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that > the > blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer > it > does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many > other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" both > financially and time-wise. > > The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is capable > of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" > responses > to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own > "issues?" > > Respectfully~ > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Marc Workman > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Ross, > > I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind > lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough about > the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would > claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. > That > said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with > what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started > this all, in case some have forgotten: > > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see > about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind > attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with > vision > issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all > kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say that > these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal > profession > > altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome > the > very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. > It's > > another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. > > Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, > given > the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I think > the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the response > has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. > Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but it's > not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind > people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an > appropriate response to me. > > If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the belief > that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue that > there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult for > blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt > you > will find any disagreement on this list. > > Best, > > Marc > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to >> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of >> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >> do > >> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >> at > >> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel >> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >> the > >> blind, much less blind lawyers. >> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >> and > >> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >> as > >> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >> spite > >> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >> States. >> There are times I doubt that premise. >> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in >> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for >> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to >> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >> transportation > >> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA >> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >> you > >> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >> lets > >> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because >> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >> malpractice. >> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? >> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work >> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of >> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST >> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >> SGA > >> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >> blind. >> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for >> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their services >> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >> to > >> put up with. >> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all >> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >> good > >> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >> of > >> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to >> fix the depression that we are in. >> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >> that > >> observation? >> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the >> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >> planning > >> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >> forestall > >> overall job availability on a national scale. >> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >> area as well. >> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then >> again neither do the economists. >> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out >> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy >> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >> to > >> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >> that way is just kidding ourselves. >> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. >> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >> my > >> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, >> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >> rate, > >> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >> Republicans or the independents. >> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted >> counterpart? >> Of course it is. >> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >> Solving the problem is the real issue. >> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >> >> Ross >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aser Tolentino" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Hi Dennis, >>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>> positions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Aser >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Aser, >>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>> All the best, >>>> Dennis >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>> >>> > >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as >>>> I >>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>>> though >>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>> effort >>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>> sector >>>>>> as >>>>>> I >>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>> and >>>>>> law >>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>> interview >>>>>> with >>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> James: >>>>>> >>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>> on >>>>>> target. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>> work >>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>>>> I >>>>>> now >>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>> jobs > >>>>>> at >>>>>> private firms. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>> experience >>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>> offers >>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>> >>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>> again >>>>>> now, >>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>> employed >>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>>> who >>>>>> are >>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>> unless >>>>>> they >>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>> in > >>>>>> my >>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>> because >>>>>> my >>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as >>>>>> I >>>>>> have >>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>>> blind >>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>> lawyers >>>>>> who >>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>> *smile* >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>> agree >>>>>> with >>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> >>>>>> > James: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>> > persons >>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>> > evidence >>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>> > right >>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>> > bad >>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Dave >>>>>> > >>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>> > than ever >>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>> > invest the >>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > %0Ane.net >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>> om< >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > %0Aom >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai > l.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc > global.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn > er.com >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Sun Nov 21 20:19:16 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:19:16 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <234B07FC38B94501847A90D8C89D383F@StevePC> What is a good guess on the employment rate for blind attorneys? However, there are just too many attorneys period!! Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a > glind > attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to the > scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. > The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of > laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and do > it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed at > those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. > If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among > qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel > for > the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on the > blind, much less blind lawyers. > Everyone here has a valid point to make. > I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. > Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 and > your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges as > put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in spite > of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United > States. > There are times I doubt that premise. > So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. > Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it > can > get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE > requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in > states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for > doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for > Pete's > sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to your > immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay transportation out > of > your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA if you > can > afford that kind of transportation. > Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if you > try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, lets > hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because > after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw > subscription > to do your research so that you aren't committing legal malpractice. > Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? > Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work > deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? > I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're > going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of > some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST > report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there > skilled > in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS SGA > regulations and not even know it until it is too late. > How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? > The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are > blind. > To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular > situation > is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for years. > There > are those who were able to start volunteering their services for free > until > someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a "test run" being a > common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have to put up with. > Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so > don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they > work > for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. > Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all > of > you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. > It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under good > conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those of > you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on > top > of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I mean. > Its > rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. > Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to > fix the depression that we are in. > When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with that > observation? > So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to > cut > budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand federal > employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not > withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the > number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously planning > to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally forestall > overall job availability on a national scale. > This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local > governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. > then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that > area > as well. > I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then > again neither do the economists. > My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out > there and its going to stay that way for a while. > If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be > viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy > blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that > requires a lot of assistance to get a job. > Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only to > a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it > that > way is just kidding ourselves. > Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. > That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My > take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and my > wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, > our > tax rates can shame Massachusetts. > Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment rate, > and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the > State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the > Republicans or the independents. > Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. > So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted > counterpart? > Of course it is. > Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. > Solving the problem is the real issue. > Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? > "The views expressed in this email are only mine" > > Ross > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Hi Dennis, >> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >> positions. >> >> Best, >> Aser >> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Aser, >>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>> All the best, >>> Dennis >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>> >> > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>> though >>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>> effort >>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>> "lucky" >>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>> sector >>>>> as >>>>> I >>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>> and >>>>> law >>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>>> with >>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>>> target. >>>>> >>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>>> I >>>>> now >>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>> >>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>>>> at >>>>> private firms. >>>>> >>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>> experience >>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>> offers >>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>> >>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>>> now, >>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>> employed >>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>> who >>>>> are >>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>> unless >>>>> they >>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>>>> my >>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>> because >>>>> my >>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as >>>>> I >>>>> have >>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>> blind >>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>> lawyers >>>>> who >>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>> "astronomical." >>>>> *smile* >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>>> with >>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> >>>>> > James: >>>>> > >>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> > persons >>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> > evidence >>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> > lawyers, >>>>> > who are working. >>>>> > >>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> > right >>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> > bad >>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>> > >>>>> > Dave >>>>> > >>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> > extremely low >>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> > to discuss. >>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> > career is to not >>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> > than ever >>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> > invest the >>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>> > >exception. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>> ne.net< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli%0Ane.net >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>> om< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c%0Aom >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 > 07:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Sun Nov 21 20:21:45 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:21:45 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I > learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability > though > many in my class have found it difficult to find work. > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg > wrote: > >> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >> effort >> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >> "lucky" >> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >> as >> I >> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >> law >> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >> with >> the Fed myself! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> James: >> >> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >> target. >> >> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >> now >> practice for the federal government. >> >> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >> private firms. >> >> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >> offers >> of employment to practice in the private sector. >> >> Noel Nightingale >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >> now, >> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >> employed >> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >> are >> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >> they >> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >> my >> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >> have >> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >> blind >> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >> who >> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >> "astronomical." >> *smile* >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >> with >> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: David Andrews >> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >> > James: >> > >> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >> > persons >> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >> > evidence >> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >> > lawyers, >> > who are working. >> > >> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >> > right >> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >> > bad >> > economy penalty. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >> > ZERO job offers >> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >> > extremely low >> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >> > to discuss. >> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >> > career is to not >> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >> > than ever >> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >> > THE WAY IT IS! >> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >> > invest the >> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > info for blindlaw: >> > >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >> ne.net >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >> 0ed.gov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 From rumpole at roadrunner.com Sun Nov 21 20:28:52 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:28:52 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: Aser, keep at it and don't give up. And, as you can tell from all of these posts, "true lawyers" can, and will argue over anything and everything. Seriously, use your imagination and be professional at all times, sooner or later you will get employed, and you will no doubt be good at it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >>I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >> though >> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >> wrote: >> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> > James: >>> > >>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> > persons >>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> > evidence >>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> > lawyers, >>> > who are working. >>> > >>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> > right >>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> > bad >>> > economy penalty. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> > ZERO job offers >>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> > extremely low >>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> > to discuss. >>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> > career is to not >>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> > than ever >>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> > invest the >>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > info for blindlaw: >>> > >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 20:31:54 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:31:54 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server><7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC><7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> <939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> Message-ID: Marc: You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But what you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the one that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment vs. the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was attempting to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be swell for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken out of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, entirely within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were responding. It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is that assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm wrong, is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued that blind people ought to forego law school. In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses were to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession. Regards, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I was > NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law student > about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough > explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for you > in case you just missed it: > > Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of > obtaining > the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high > number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law > school > or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been > practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that > the > blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer > it > does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many > other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" both > financially and time-wise. > > The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is capable > of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" > responses > to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own > "issues?" > > Respectfully~ > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Marc Workman > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Ross, > > I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind > lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough about > the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would > claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. > That > said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with > what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started > this all, in case some have forgotten: > > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see > about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind > attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with > vision > issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all > kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say that > these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal > profession > > altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome > the > very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. > It's > > another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. > > Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, > given > the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I think > the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the response > has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. > Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but it's > not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind > people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an > appropriate response to me. > > If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the belief > that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue that > there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult for > blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt > you > will find any disagreement on this list. > > Best, > > Marc > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to >> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of >> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >> do > >> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >> at > >> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel >> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >> the > >> blind, much less blind lawyers. >> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >> and > >> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >> as > >> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >> spite > >> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >> States. >> There are times I doubt that premise. >> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in >> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for >> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to >> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >> transportation > >> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA >> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >> you > >> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >> lets > >> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because >> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >> malpractice. >> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? >> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work >> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of >> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST >> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >> SGA > >> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >> blind. >> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for >> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their services >> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >> to > >> put up with. >> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all >> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >> good > >> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >> of > >> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to >> fix the depression that we are in. >> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >> that > >> observation? >> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the >> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >> planning > >> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >> forestall > >> overall job availability on a national scale. >> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >> area as well. >> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then >> again neither do the economists. >> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out >> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy >> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >> to > >> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >> that way is just kidding ourselves. >> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. >> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >> my > >> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, >> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >> rate, > >> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >> Republicans or the independents. >> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted >> counterpart? >> Of course it is. >> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >> Solving the problem is the real issue. >> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >> >> Ross >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aser Tolentino" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Hi Dennis, >>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>> positions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Aser >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Aser, >>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>> All the best, >>>> Dennis >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>> >>> > >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as >>>> I >>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>>> though >>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>> effort >>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>> sector >>>>>> as >>>>>> I >>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>> and >>>>>> law >>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>> interview >>>>>> with >>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> James: >>>>>> >>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>> on >>>>>> target. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>> work >>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>>>> I >>>>>> now >>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>> jobs > >>>>>> at >>>>>> private firms. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>> experience >>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>> offers >>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>> >>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>> again >>>>>> now, >>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>> employed >>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>>> who >>>>>> are >>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>> unless >>>>>> they >>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>> in > >>>>>> my >>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>> because >>>>>> my >>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as >>>>>> I >>>>>> have >>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>>> blind >>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>> lawyers >>>>>> who >>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>> *smile* >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>> agree >>>>>> with >>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> >>>>>> > James: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>> > persons >>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>> > evidence >>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>> > right >>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>> > bad >>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Dave >>>>>> > >>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>> > than ever >>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>> > invest the >>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > %0Ane.net >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>> om< >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > %0Aom >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai > l.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc > global.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn > er.com >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 20:33:06 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:33:06 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: <6DB09D66C17A4287BBDFFEC8069EE618@Blind> I feel you Steve! Good sense of humor!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:22 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I > learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability > though > many in my class have found it difficult to find work. > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg > wrote: > >> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >> effort >> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >> "lucky" >> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >> as >> I >> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >> law >> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >> with >> the Fed myself! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> James: >> >> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >> target. >> >> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >> now >> practice for the federal government. >> >> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >> private firms. >> >> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >> offers >> of employment to practice in the private sector. >> >> Noel Nightingale >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >> now, >> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >> employed >> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >> are >> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >> they >> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >> my >> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >> have >> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >> blind >> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >> who >> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >> "astronomical." >> *smile* >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >> with >> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: David Andrews >> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >> > James: >> > >> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >> > persons >> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >> > evidence >> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >> > lawyers, >> > who are working. >> > >> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >> > right >> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >> > bad >> > economy penalty. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >> > ZERO job offers >> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >> > extremely low >> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >> > to discuss. >> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >> > career is to not >> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >> > than ever >> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >> > THE WAY IT IS! >> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >> > invest the >> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > info for blindlaw: >> > >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >> ne.net >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >> 0ed.gov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 20:32:25 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:32:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <234B07FC38B94501847A90D8C89D383F@StevePC> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> <234B07FC38B94501847A90D8C89D383F@StevePC> Message-ID: <920D3FB86DCA4E8193B611D912BD442D@Blind> That's a fact Steve!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:19 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys What is a good guess on the employment rate for blind attorneys? However, there are just too many attorneys period!! Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a > glind > attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to the > scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. > The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of > laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and do > it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed at > those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. > If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among > qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel > for > the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on the > blind, much less blind lawyers. > Everyone here has a valid point to make. > I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. > Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 and > your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges as > put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in spite > of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United > States. > There are times I doubt that premise. > So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. > Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it > can > get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE > requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in > states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for > doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for > Pete's > sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to your > immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay transportation out > of > your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA if you > can > afford that kind of transportation. > Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if you > try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, lets > hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because > after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw > subscription > to do your research so that you aren't committing legal malpractice. > Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? > Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work > deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? > I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're > going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of > some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST > report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there > skilled > in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS SGA > regulations and not even know it until it is too late. > How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? > The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are > blind. > To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular > situation > is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for years. > There > are those who were able to start volunteering their services for free > until > someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a "test run" being a > common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have to put up with. > Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so > don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they > work > for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. > Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all > of > you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. > It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under good > conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those of > you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on > top > of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I mean. > Its > rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. > Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to > fix the depression that we are in. > When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with that > observation? > So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to > cut > budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand federal > employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not > withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the > number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously planning > to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally forestall > overall job availability on a national scale. > This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local > governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. > then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that > area > as well. > I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then > again neither do the economists. > My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out > there and its going to stay that way for a while. > If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be > viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy > blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that > requires a lot of assistance to get a job. > Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only to > a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it > that > way is just kidding ourselves. > Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. > That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My > take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and my > wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, > our > tax rates can shame Massachusetts. > Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment rate, > and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the > State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the > Republicans or the independents. > Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. > So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted > counterpart? > Of course it is. > Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. > Solving the problem is the real issue. > Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? > "The views expressed in this email are only mine" > > Ross > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Hi Dennis, >> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >> positions. >> >> Best, >> Aser >> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Aser, >>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>> All the best, >>> Dennis >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>> >> > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>> though >>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>> effort >>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>> "lucky" >>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>> sector >>>>> as >>>>> I >>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>> and >>>>> law >>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>>> with >>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>>> target. >>>>> >>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>>> I >>>>> now >>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>> >>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>>>> at >>>>> private firms. >>>>> >>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>> experience >>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>> offers >>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>> >>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>>> now, >>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>> employed >>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>> who >>>>> are >>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>> unless >>>>> they >>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>>>> my >>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>> because >>>>> my >>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as >>>>> I >>>>> have >>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>> blind >>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>> lawyers >>>>> who >>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>> "astronomical." >>>>> *smile* >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>>> with >>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> >>>>> > James: >>>>> > >>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> > persons >>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> > evidence >>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> > lawyers, >>>>> > who are working. >>>>> > >>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> > right >>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> > bad >>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>> > >>>>> > Dave >>>>> > >>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> > extremely low >>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> > to discuss. >>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> > career is to not >>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> > than ever >>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> > invest the >>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>> > >exception. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>> ne.net< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli %0Ane.net >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>> om< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c %0Aom >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn er.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 > 07:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 20:34:21 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:34:21 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: <9B9B323CC33D4F2EB9887074C5373F86@Blind> Employ yourself Acer and go out and get some clients!! Start pro bono if you have to as I did. You can do it just don't wait around for a job offer!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ross Doerr Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:29 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Aser, keep at it and don't give up. And, as you can tell from all of these posts, "true lawyers" can, and will argue over anything and everything. Seriously, use your imagination and be professional at all times, sooner or later you will get employed, and you will no doubt be good at it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >>I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >> though >> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >> wrote: >> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> > James: >>> > >>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> > persons >>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> > evidence >>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> > lawyers, >>> > who are working. >>> > >>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> > right >>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> > bad >>> > economy penalty. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> > ZERO job offers >>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> > extremely low >>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> > to discuss. >>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> > career is to not >>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> > than ever >>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> > invest the >>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > info for blindlaw: >>> > >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn er.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jsorozco at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 20:44:10 2010 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:44:10 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <9B9B323CC33D4F2EB9887074C5373F86@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <9B9B323CC33D4F2EB9887074C5373F86@Blind> Message-ID: Man, I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but it would appear that if one did less posting on this list and did more job searching, a job offer might be more achievable! Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:34 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Employ yourself Acer and go out and get some clients!! Start pro bono if you have to as I did. You can do it just don't wait around for a job offer!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ross Doerr Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:29 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Aser, keep at it and don't give up. And, as you can tell from all of these posts, "true lawyers" can, and will argue over anything and everything. Seriously, use your imagination and be professional at all times, sooner or later you will get employed, and you will no doubt be good at it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >>I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >> though >> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >> wrote: >> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> > James: >>> > >>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> > persons >>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> > evidence >>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> > lawyers, >>> > who are working. >>> > >>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> > right >>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> > bad >>> > economy penalty. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> > ZERO job offers >>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> > extremely low >>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> > to discuss. >>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> > career is to not >>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> > than ever >>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> > invest the >>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > info for blindlaw: >>> > >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurl ey%40optonli >>> ne.net >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.n ightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-l aw%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtole ntino%40gmai l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep .deeley%40in sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpol e%40roadrunn er.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-l aw%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 20:59:18 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:59:18 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><9B9B323CC33D4F2EB9887074C5373F86@Blind> Message-ID: <5804409282274174826866BAB840924B@Blind> Joe: I manage to have a pro bono career AND I have over fifteen applications in with the Fed at this time. I guess I am an overachieve! That last line was a joke for those on the list without a sense of humor. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:44 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Man, I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but it would appear that if one did less posting on this list and did more job searching, a job offer might be more achievable! Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:34 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Employ yourself Acer and go out and get some clients!! Start pro bono if you have to as I did. You can do it just don't wait around for a job offer!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ross Doerr Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:29 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Aser, keep at it and don't give up. And, as you can tell from all of these posts, "true lawyers" can, and will argue over anything and everything. Seriously, use your imagination and be professional at all times, sooner or later you will get employed, and you will no doubt be good at it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >>I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >> though >> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >> wrote: >> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> > James: >>> > >>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> > persons >>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> > evidence >>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> > lawyers, >>> > who are working. >>> > >>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> > right >>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> > bad >>> > economy penalty. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> > ZERO job offers >>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> > extremely low >>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> > to discuss. >>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> > career is to not >>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> > than ever >>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> > invest the >>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > info for blindlaw: >>> > >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurl ey%40optonli >>> ne.net >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.n ightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-l aw%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtole ntino%40gmai l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep .deeley%40in sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpol e%40roadrunn er.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-l aw%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 21:22:13 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:22:13 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server><7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC><7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind><939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> Message-ID: Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, and we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. James said, Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with well researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received nearly as much disagreement. Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, or at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less reasonable, harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because it is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented based on their and others's experiences. In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at attaining adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until that evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against the experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say that blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if we're just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to eliminate the barriers they face. Best, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Marc: > > You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people > should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were > saying > that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But what > you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the > one > that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment vs. > the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was attempting > to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be swell > for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not make > sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of > whether you hold the same opinions? > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Marc Workman > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken out > of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that > you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original > post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts > responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you > responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. > > I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but > nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind > lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, > *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, > entirely > > within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were > responding. > > It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly > didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did > say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is > that > assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm wrong, > is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued > that > blind people ought to forego law school. > > In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses > were > > to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for > blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your > comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind > lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the > legal > > profession. > > Regards, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I was >> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law student >> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >> you >> in case you just missed it: >> >> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >> obtaining >> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >> school >> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >> the >> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer >> it >> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" both >> financially and time-wise. >> >> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >> capable >> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >> responses >> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >> "issues?" >> >> Respectfully~ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Marc Workman >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Ross, >> >> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough about >> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >> That >> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with >> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started >> this all, in case some have forgotten: >> >> Curious: >> >> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? >> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >> would >> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision >> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >> >> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind >> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >> vision >> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all >> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say that >> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >> profession >> >> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >> the >> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >> It's >> >> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >> >> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >> given >> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >> think >> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >> response >> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >> it's >> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >> appropriate response to me. >> >> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >> belief >> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue that >> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult for >> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >> you >> will find any disagreement on this list. >> >> Best, >> >> Marc >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ross Doerr" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to >>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>> of >>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >>> do >> >>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >>> at >> >>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel >>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>> the >> >>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>> and >> >>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >>> as >> >>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>> spite >> >>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>> States. >>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>> in >>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>> for >>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>> to >>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>> transportation >> >>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA >>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>> you >> >>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>> lets >> >>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>> because >>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>> malpractice. >>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? >>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work >>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of >>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST >>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>> SGA >> >>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>> blind. >>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for >>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>> services >>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >>> to >> >>> put up with. >>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all >>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>> good >> >>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >>> of >> >>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>> to >>> fix the depression that we are in. >>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>> that >> >>> observation? >>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the >>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>> planning >> >>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>> forestall >> >>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >>> area as well. >>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>> then >>> again neither do the economists. >>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out >>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy >>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >>> to >> >>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. >>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >>> my >> >>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, >>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>> rate, >> >>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>> Republicans or the independents. >>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>> sighted >>> counterpart? >>> Of course it is. >>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>> >>> Ross >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> Hi Dennis, >>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>> positions. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Aser >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>> in >>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>> All the best, >>>>> Dennis >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as >>>>> I >>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>>>> though >>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>>> effort >>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>> sector >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> law >>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>> interview >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> target. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>> work >>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>> years. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> now >>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>> jobs >> >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>> experience >>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>>> offers >>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>> again >>>>>>> now, >>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>> employed >>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>> unless >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>>> in >> >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>> agree >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>> > right >>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >> %0Ane.net >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>> om< >>>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> %0Aom >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >> global.net >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >> l.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >> er.com >>> >>> >>> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 >>> 07:34:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From rumpole at roadrunner.com Sun Nov 21 21:42:48 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 16:42:48 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server><7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC><7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind><939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> Message-ID: Mark, you're a philosopher? Hey, someone help him get into law school before he gets away, . He can argue with the best of us. For Pete's sake don't let him waste away his life in some university philosophy department at low pay. He'll just end up with a full beard and smoking a pipe like my old philosophy proff. All kidding aside, the underlying issue here, repeat "underlying issue" is the unemployment rate among dedicated blind professionals who have chosen the legal profession as their life work, or as work, not necessarily for life. We're blind and we don't fit the "norm" for employment strategies that seem to work pretty good for our sighted counterparts. So what are "we" going to do about it? Can we agree that the usual BlindLaw "misquoted" and "mischaracterized" and "Misunderstood my meaning" arguments are pretty well spent and have gotten us the usual results. a clogged up list serve and nothing of substance to show for it. Lets try to set up some regional groups to strategize jobs and successful tactics in our respective areas of the country. How about pressuring bar associations to be pro-active for this particular type of diversity? How about trying to rope in some of the real big-shot law firms, I mean the movers and shakers who really dominate specified areas of law in our respective states to put some action behind their well-advertised standards of how much they really care about people out there. Thats my suggestion as a starting point. Who has another idea to add to, or replace it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Workman" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, and > we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. > > James said, > Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these > beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? > > I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. > Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. > > When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people > should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The > emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it > is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and > hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind > lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with > well > researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up > plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before > entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one > that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received > nearly as much disagreement. > > Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, or > at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school > entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less > reasonable, > harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because it > is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented > based on their and others's experiences. > > In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at > least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I > doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of > blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at > attaining > adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in > comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until that > evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against the > experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say > that > blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if we're > just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly > held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is > difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and > blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to > eliminate the barriers they face. > > Best, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Marc: >> >> You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people >> should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were >> saying >> that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But >> what >> you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the >> one >> that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment >> vs. >> the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was >> attempting >> to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be swell >> for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not make >> sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of >> whether you hold the same opinions? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Marc Workman >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken >> out >> of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that >> you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original >> post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts >> responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you >> responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. >> >> I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but >> nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind >> lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, >> *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, >> entirely >> >> within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were >> responding. >> >> It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly >> didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did >> say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is >> that >> assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm >> wrong, >> is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued >> that >> blind people ought to forego law school. >> >> In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses >> were >> >> to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for >> blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your >> comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind >> lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the >> legal >> >> profession. >> >> Regards, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Weisberg" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I >>> was >>> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law >>> student >>> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >>> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >>> you >>> in case you just missed it: >>> >>> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >>> obtaining >>> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >>> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >>> school >>> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >>> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >>> the >>> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer >>> it >>> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >>> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" >>> both >>> financially and time-wise. >>> >>> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >>> capable >>> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >>> responses >>> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >>> "issues?" >>> >>> Respectfully~ >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Ross, >>> >>> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >>> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough >>> about >>> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >>> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >>> That >>> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with >>> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started >>> this all, in case some have forgotten: >>> >>> Curious: >>> >>> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at >>> all???? >>> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >>> would >>> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with >>> vision >>> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >>> >>> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >>> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind >>> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >>> vision >>> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all >>> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say >>> that >>> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >>> profession >>> >>> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >>> the >>> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >>> It's >>> >>> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >>> >>> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >>> given >>> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >>> think >>> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >>> response >>> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >>> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >>> it's >>> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >>> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >>> appropriate response to me. >>> >>> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >>> belief >>> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue >>> that >>> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult >>> for >>> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >>> you >>> will find any disagreement on this list. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ross Doerr" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts >>>> to >>>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>>> of >>>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >>>> do >>> >>>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >>>> at >>> >>>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >>>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a >>>> feel >>>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>>> the >>> >>>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>>> and >>> >>>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >>>> as >>> >>>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>>> spite >>> >>>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>>> States. >>>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >>>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >>>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>>> in >>>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>>> for >>>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>>> to >>>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>>> transportation >>> >>>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding >>>> SGA >>>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>>> you >>> >>>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>>> lets >>> >>>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>>> because >>>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>>> malpractice. >>>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library >>>> anywhere? >>>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial >>>> work >>>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >>>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >>>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation >>>> of >>>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you >>>> MUST >>>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>>> SGA >>> >>>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>>> blind. >>>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice >>>> for >>>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>>> services >>>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >>>> to >>> >>>> put up with. >>>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >>>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >>>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to >>>> all >>>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>>> good >>> >>>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >>>> of >>> >>>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >>>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>>> to >>>> fix the depression that we are in. >>>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>>> that >>> >>>> observation? >>>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >>>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >>>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase >>>> the >>>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>>> planning >>> >>>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>>> forestall >>> >>>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >>>> area as well. >>>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>>> then >>>> again neither do the economists. >>>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good >>>> out >>>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >>>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are >>>> actualy >>>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >>>> to >>> >>>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >>>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of >>>> september. >>>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >>>> my >>> >>>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in >>>> Maine, >>>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>>> rate, >>> >>>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >>>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>>> Republicans or the independents. >>>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>>> sighted >>>> counterpart? >>>> Of course it is. >>>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>>> >>>> Ross >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Dennis, >>>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>>> positions. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Aser >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>>> in >>>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>>> All the best, >>>>>> Dennis >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, >>>>>> as >>>>>> I >>>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of >>>>>>> disability >>>>>>> though >>>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>>>> effort >>>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>>> sector >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>>> interview >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> target. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>>> jobs >>> >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>>>> offers >>>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>>> employed >>>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>>>> in >>> >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>>> > right >>>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> %0Ane.net >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>>> om< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> %0Aom >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >>> global.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >>> er.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: >>>> 11/20/10 >>>> 07:34:00 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Sun Nov 21 21:51:42 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:51:42 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> <7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> <7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> <939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> Message-ID: <03C2F1A822054FCBAB3709D452E48DF0@GPD945> I've never understood Philosophy. Mark if you can assist me in understanding philosophy, might be my thinking about things, I've never understood it. I tried taking Philosophhy 150 however dropped it after failing the midterm horribly. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Mark, you're a philosopher? Hey, someone help him get into law school before he gets away, . He can argue with the best of us. For Pete's sake don't let him waste away his life in some university philosophy department at low pay. He'll just end up with a full beard and smoking a pipe like my old philosophy proff. All kidding aside, the underlying issue here, repeat "underlying issue" is the unemployment rate among dedicated blind professionals who have chosen the legal profession as their life work, or as work, not necessarily for life. We're blind and we don't fit the "norm" for employment strategies that seem to work pretty good for our sighted counterparts. So what are "we" going to do about it? Can we agree that the usual BlindLaw "misquoted" and "mischaracterized" and "Misunderstood my meaning" arguments are pretty well spent and have gotten us the usual results. a clogged up list serve and nothing of substance to show for it. Lets try to set up some regional groups to strategize jobs and successful tactics in our respective areas of the country. How about pressuring bar associations to be pro-active for this particular type of diversity? How about trying to rope in some of the real big-shot law firms, I mean the movers and shakers who really dominate specified areas of law in our respective states to put some action behind their well-advertised standards of how much they really care about people out there. Thats my suggestion as a starting point. Who has another idea to add to, or replace it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Workman" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, and > we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. > > James said, > Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these > beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? > > I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. > Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. > > When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people > should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The > emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it > is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and > hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind > lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with > well > researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up > plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before > entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one > that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received > nearly as much disagreement. > > Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, or > at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school > entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less > reasonable, > harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because it > is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented > based on their and others's experiences. > > In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at > least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I > doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of > blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at > attaining > adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in > comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until that > evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against the > experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say > that > blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if we're > just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly > held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is > difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and > blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to > eliminate the barriers they face. > > Best, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Marc: >> >> You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people >> should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were >> saying >> that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But >> what >> you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the >> one >> that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment >> vs. >> the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was >> attempting >> to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be swell >> for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not make >> sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of >> whether you hold the same opinions? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Marc Workman >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken >> out >> of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that >> you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original >> post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts >> responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you >> responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. >> >> I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but >> nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind >> lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, >> *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, >> entirely >> >> within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were >> responding. >> >> It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly >> didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did >> say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is >> that >> assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm >> wrong, >> is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued >> that >> blind people ought to forego law school. >> >> In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses >> were >> >> to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for >> blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your >> comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind >> lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the >> legal >> >> profession. >> >> Regards, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Weisberg" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I >>> was >>> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law >>> student >>> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >>> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >>> you >>> in case you just missed it: >>> >>> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >>> obtaining >>> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >>> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >>> school >>> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >>> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >>> the >>> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer >>> it >>> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >>> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" >>> both >>> financially and time-wise. >>> >>> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >>> capable >>> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >>> responses >>> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >>> "issues?" >>> >>> Respectfully~ >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Ross, >>> >>> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >>> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough >>> about >>> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >>> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >>> That >>> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with >>> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started >>> this all, in case some have forgotten: >>> >>> Curious: >>> >>> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at >>> all???? >>> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >>> would >>> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with >>> vision >>> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >>> >>> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >>> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind >>> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >>> vision >>> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all >>> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say >>> that >>> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >>> profession >>> >>> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >>> the >>> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >>> It's >>> >>> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >>> >>> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >>> given >>> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >>> think >>> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >>> response >>> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >>> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >>> it's >>> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >>> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >>> appropriate response to me. >>> >>> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >>> belief >>> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue >>> that >>> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult >>> for >>> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >>> you >>> will find any disagreement on this list. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ross Doerr" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts >>>> to >>>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>>> of >>>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >>>> do >>> >>>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >>>> at >>> >>>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >>>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a >>>> feel >>>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>>> the >>> >>>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>>> and >>> >>>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >>>> as >>> >>>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>>> spite >>> >>>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>>> States. >>>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >>>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >>>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>>> in >>>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>>> for >>>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>>> to >>>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>>> transportation >>> >>>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding >>>> SGA >>>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>>> you >>> >>>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>>> lets >>> >>>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>>> because >>>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>>> malpractice. >>>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library >>>> anywhere? >>>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial >>>> work >>>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >>>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >>>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation >>>> of >>>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you >>>> MUST >>>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>>> SGA >>> >>>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>>> blind. >>>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice >>>> for >>>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>>> services >>>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >>>> to >>> >>>> put up with. >>>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >>>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >>>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to >>>> all >>>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>>> good >>> >>>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >>>> of >>> >>>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >>>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>>> to >>>> fix the depression that we are in. >>>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>>> that >>> >>>> observation? >>>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >>>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >>>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase >>>> the >>>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>>> planning >>> >>>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>>> forestall >>> >>>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >>>> area as well. >>>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>>> then >>>> again neither do the economists. >>>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good >>>> out >>>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >>>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are >>>> actualy >>>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >>>> to >>> >>>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >>>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of >>>> september. >>>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >>>> my >>> >>>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in >>>> Maine, >>>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>>> rate, >>> >>>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >>>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>>> Republicans or the independents. >>>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>>> sighted >>>> counterpart? >>>> Of course it is. >>>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>>> >>>> Ross >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Dennis, >>>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>>> positions. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Aser >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>>> in >>>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>>> All the best, >>>>>> Dennis >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, >>>>>> as >>>>>> I >>>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of >>>>>>> disability >>>>>>> though >>>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>>>> effort >>>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>>> sector >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>>> interview >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> target. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>>> jobs >>> >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>>>> offers >>>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>>> employed >>>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>>>> in >>> >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>>> > right >>>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> %0Ane.net >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>>> om< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> %0Aom >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >>> global.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >>> er.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: >>>> 11/20/10 >>>> 07:34:00 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From mruniverse08 at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 22:06:18 2010 From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 16:06:18 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <03C2F1A822054FCBAB3709D452E48DF0@GPD945> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> <7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> <7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> <939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> <03C2F1A822054FCBAB3709D452E48DF0@GPD945> Message-ID: <0c0b01cb89c8$559713e0$00c53ba0$@com> This has definitely been a really intriguing discussion today! I'm a blind paralegal and have had issue with finding employment as well after losing my sight a couple years ago. I know of only one other blind paralegal here in Houston, of course there could be more, and my non-profit I started is making an effort to meet with staffing agencies as well as employers to discuss the benefits of hiring not only the blind, but the disabled in general. there are a few blind attorneys that I know of in the city. I think, from my experience, that people just don't know and they're uncomfortable dealing with the blind. I'm not sure if it's from a past experience or just not having encountered someone blind. I think we go a long way if we don't accuse first and then want to explain. i guess I feel this way because I have not always been blind and it's a really new thing to me compared to some who are here. i never saw a blind person other than on TV and that was rare. I'm not sure how I would have reacted if I had not had the experience I have today. There are many who wish to take a negative approach to folks without first taking time to understand if they are simply being discriminatory or simply have a lack of understanding. Sorry for the long post. Will -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:52 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I've never understood Philosophy. Mark if you can assist me in understanding philosophy, might be my thinking about things, I've never understood it. I tried taking Philosophhy 150 however dropped it after failing the midterm horribly. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Mark, you're a philosopher? Hey, someone help him get into law school before he gets away, . He can argue with the best of us. For Pete's sake don't let him waste away his life in some university philosophy department at low pay. He'll just end up with a full beard and smoking a pipe like my old philosophy proff. All kidding aside, the underlying issue here, repeat "underlying issue" is the unemployment rate among dedicated blind professionals who have chosen the legal profession as their life work, or as work, not necessarily for life. We're blind and we don't fit the "norm" for employment strategies that seem to work pretty good for our sighted counterparts. So what are "we" going to do about it? Can we agree that the usual BlindLaw "misquoted" and "mischaracterized" and "Misunderstood my meaning" arguments are pretty well spent and have gotten us the usual results. a clogged up list serve and nothing of substance to show for it. Lets try to set up some regional groups to strategize jobs and successful tactics in our respective areas of the country. How about pressuring bar associations to be pro-active for this particular type of diversity? How about trying to rope in some of the real big-shot law firms, I mean the movers and shakers who really dominate specified areas of law in our respective states to put some action behind their well-advertised standards of how much they really care about people out there. Thats my suggestion as a starting point. Who has another idea to add to, or replace it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Workman" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, and > we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. > > James said, > Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these > beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? > > I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. > Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. > > When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people > should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The > emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it > is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and > hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind > lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with > well > researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up > plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before > entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one > that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received > nearly as much disagreement. > > Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, or > at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school > entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less > reasonable, > harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because it > is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented > based on their and others's experiences. > > In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at > least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I > doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of > blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at > attaining > adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in > comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until that > evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against the > experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say > that > blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if we're > just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly > held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is > difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and > blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to > eliminate the barriers they face. > > Best, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Marc: >> >> You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people >> should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were >> saying >> that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But >> what >> you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the >> one >> that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment >> vs. >> the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was >> attempting >> to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be swell >> for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not make >> sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of >> whether you hold the same opinions? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Marc Workman >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken >> out >> of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that >> you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original >> post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts >> responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you >> responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. >> >> I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but >> nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind >> lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, >> *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, >> entirely >> >> within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were >> responding. >> >> It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly >> didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did >> say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is >> that >> assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm >> wrong, >> is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued >> that >> blind people ought to forego law school. >> >> In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses >> were >> >> to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for >> blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your >> comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind >> lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the >> legal >> >> profession. >> >> Regards, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Weisberg" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I >>> was >>> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law >>> student >>> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >>> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >>> you >>> in case you just missed it: >>> >>> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >>> obtaining >>> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >>> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >>> school >>> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >>> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >>> the >>> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer >>> it >>> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >>> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" >>> both >>> financially and time-wise. >>> >>> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >>> capable >>> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >>> responses >>> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >>> "issues?" >>> >>> Respectfully~ >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Ross, >>> >>> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >>> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough >>> about >>> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >>> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >>> That >>> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with >>> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started >>> this all, in case some have forgotten: >>> >>> Curious: >>> >>> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at >>> all???? >>> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >>> would >>> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with >>> vision >>> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >>> >>> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >>> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind >>> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >>> vision >>> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all >>> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say >>> that >>> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >>> profession >>> >>> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >>> the >>> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >>> It's >>> >>> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >>> >>> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >>> given >>> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >>> think >>> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >>> response >>> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >>> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >>> it's >>> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >>> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >>> appropriate response to me. >>> >>> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >>> belief >>> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue >>> that >>> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult >>> for >>> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >>> you >>> will find any disagreement on this list. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ross Doerr" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts >>>> to >>>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>>> of >>>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >>>> do >>> >>>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >>>> at >>> >>>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >>>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a >>>> feel >>>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>>> the >>> >>>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>>> and >>> >>>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >>>> as >>> >>>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>>> spite >>> >>>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>>> States. >>>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >>>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >>>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>>> in >>>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>>> for >>>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>>> to >>>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>>> transportation >>> >>>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding >>>> SGA >>>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>>> you >>> >>>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>>> lets >>> >>>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>>> because >>>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>>> malpractice. >>>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library >>>> anywhere? >>>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial >>>> work >>>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >>>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >>>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation >>>> of >>>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you >>>> MUST >>>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>>> SGA >>> >>>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>>> blind. >>>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice >>>> for >>>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>>> services >>>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >>>> to >>> >>>> put up with. >>>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >>>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >>>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to >>>> all >>>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>>> good >>> >>>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >>>> of >>> >>>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >>>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>>> to >>>> fix the depression that we are in. >>>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>>> that >>> >>>> observation? >>>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >>>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >>>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase >>>> the >>>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>>> planning >>> >>>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>>> forestall >>> >>>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >>>> area as well. >>>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>>> then >>>> again neither do the economists. >>>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good >>>> out >>>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >>>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are >>>> actualy >>>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >>>> to >>> >>>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >>>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of >>>> september. >>>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >>>> my >>> >>>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in >>>> Maine, >>>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>>> rate, >>> >>>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >>>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>>> Republicans or the independents. >>>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>>> sighted >>>> counterpart? >>>> Of course it is. >>>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>>> >>>> Ross >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Dennis, >>>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>>> positions. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Aser >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>>> in >>>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>>> All the best, >>>>>> Dennis >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, >>>>>> as >>>>>> I >>>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of >>>>>>> disability >>>>>>> though >>>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>>>> effort >>>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>>> sector >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>>> interview >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> target. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>>> jobs >>> >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>>>> offers >>>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>>> employed >>>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>>>> in >>> >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>>> > right >>>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> %0Ane.net >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>>> om< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> %0Aom >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >>> global.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >>> er.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: >>>> 11/20/10 >>>> 07:34:00 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn er.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa sktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma il.com From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Mon Nov 22 00:52:58 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:52:58 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> <7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> <7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> <939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> <03C2F1A822054FCBAB3709D452E48DF0@GPD945> <0c0b01cb89c8$559713e0$00c53ba0$@com> Message-ID: <606E89B7B299407FB6F338DA52BA8F6F@GPD945> It's very interesting reading these threads. As a Canadian it's very interesting when you hear sighted people suggesting that you try and get a job with the government because they tend to hire people with disabilities, I find that they do hire people with disabilities however they don't hire a lot of blind people. If this statement was true that they hire people with disabilities then why is it that the governments are still uneducated about technology that blind people use? If the provincial and federal government were hireing more blind people then why is the rate of employment so low with blind people? Does it come down to qualification or just the unknown and the willingness to learn and give us a chance? I find that people that do have a job it was the employers that gave them a chance. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "WB" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys This has definitely been a really intriguing discussion today! I'm a blind paralegal and have had issue with finding employment as well after losing my sight a couple years ago. I know of only one other blind paralegal here in Houston, of course there could be more, and my non-profit I started is making an effort to meet with staffing agencies as well as employers to discuss the benefits of hiring not only the blind, but the disabled in general. there are a few blind attorneys that I know of in the city. I think, from my experience, that people just don't know and they're uncomfortable dealing with the blind. I'm not sure if it's from a past experience or just not having encountered someone blind. I think we go a long way if we don't accuse first and then want to explain. i guess I feel this way because I have not always been blind and it's a really new thing to me compared to some who are here. i never saw a blind person other than on TV and that was rare. I'm not sure how I would have reacted if I had not had the experience I have today. There are many who wish to take a negative approach to folks without first taking time to understand if they are simply being discriminatory or simply have a lack of understanding. Sorry for the long post. Will -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:52 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I've never understood Philosophy. Mark if you can assist me in understanding philosophy, might be my thinking about things, I've never understood it. I tried taking Philosophhy 150 however dropped it after failing the midterm horribly. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Mark, you're a philosopher? Hey, someone help him get into law school before he gets away, . He can argue with the best of us. For Pete's sake don't let him waste away his life in some university philosophy department at low pay. He'll just end up with a full beard and smoking a pipe like my old philosophy proff. All kidding aside, the underlying issue here, repeat "underlying issue" is the unemployment rate among dedicated blind professionals who have chosen the legal profession as their life work, or as work, not necessarily for life. We're blind and we don't fit the "norm" for employment strategies that seem to work pretty good for our sighted counterparts. So what are "we" going to do about it? Can we agree that the usual BlindLaw "misquoted" and "mischaracterized" and "Misunderstood my meaning" arguments are pretty well spent and have gotten us the usual results. a clogged up list serve and nothing of substance to show for it. Lets try to set up some regional groups to strategize jobs and successful tactics in our respective areas of the country. How about pressuring bar associations to be pro-active for this particular type of diversity? How about trying to rope in some of the real big-shot law firms, I mean the movers and shakers who really dominate specified areas of law in our respective states to put some action behind their well-advertised standards of how much they really care about people out there. Thats my suggestion as a starting point. Who has another idea to add to, or replace it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Workman" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, and > we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. > > James said, > Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these > beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? > > I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. > Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. > > When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people > should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The > emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it > is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and > hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind > lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with > well > researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up > plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before > entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one > that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received > nearly as much disagreement. > > Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, or > at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school > entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less > reasonable, > harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because it > is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented > based on their and others's experiences. > > In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at > least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I > doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of > blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at > attaining > adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in > comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until that > evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against the > experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say > that > blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if we're > just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly > held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is > difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and > blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to > eliminate the barriers they face. > > Best, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Marc: >> >> You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people >> should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were >> saying >> that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But >> what >> you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the >> one >> that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment >> vs. >> the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was >> attempting >> to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be swell >> for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not make >> sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of >> whether you hold the same opinions? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Marc Workman >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken >> out >> of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that >> you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original >> post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts >> responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you >> responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. >> >> I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but >> nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind >> lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, >> *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, >> entirely >> >> within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were >> responding. >> >> It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly >> didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did >> say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is >> that >> assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm >> wrong, >> is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued >> that >> blind people ought to forego law school. >> >> In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses >> were >> >> to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for >> blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your >> comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind >> lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the >> legal >> >> profession. >> >> Regards, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Weisberg" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I >>> was >>> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law >>> student >>> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >>> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >>> you >>> in case you just missed it: >>> >>> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >>> obtaining >>> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >>> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >>> school >>> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >>> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >>> the >>> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer >>> it >>> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >>> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" >>> both >>> financially and time-wise. >>> >>> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >>> capable >>> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >>> responses >>> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >>> "issues?" >>> >>> Respectfully~ >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Ross, >>> >>> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >>> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough >>> about >>> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >>> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >>> That >>> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with >>> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started >>> this all, in case some have forgotten: >>> >>> Curious: >>> >>> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at >>> all???? >>> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >>> would >>> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with >>> vision >>> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >>> >>> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >>> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind >>> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >>> vision >>> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all >>> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say >>> that >>> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >>> profession >>> >>> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >>> the >>> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >>> It's >>> >>> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >>> >>> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >>> given >>> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >>> think >>> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >>> response >>> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >>> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >>> it's >>> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >>> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >>> appropriate response to me. >>> >>> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >>> belief >>> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue >>> that >>> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult >>> for >>> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >>> you >>> will find any disagreement on this list. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ross Doerr" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts >>>> to >>>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>>> of >>>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >>>> do >>> >>>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >>>> at >>> >>>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >>>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a >>>> feel >>>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>>> the >>> >>>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>>> and >>> >>>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >>>> as >>> >>>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>>> spite >>> >>>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>>> States. >>>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >>>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >>>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>>> in >>>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>>> for >>>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>>> to >>>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>>> transportation >>> >>>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding >>>> SGA >>>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>>> you >>> >>>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>>> lets >>> >>>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>>> because >>>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>>> malpractice. >>>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library >>>> anywhere? >>>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial >>>> work >>>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >>>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >>>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation >>>> of >>>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you >>>> MUST >>>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>>> SGA >>> >>>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>>> blind. >>>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice >>>> for >>>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>>> services >>>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >>>> to >>> >>>> put up with. >>>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >>>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >>>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to >>>> all >>>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>>> good >>> >>>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >>>> of >>> >>>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >>>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>>> to >>>> fix the depression that we are in. >>>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>>> that >>> >>>> observation? >>>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >>>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >>>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase >>>> the >>>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>>> planning >>> >>>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>>> forestall >>> >>>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >>>> area as well. >>>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>>> then >>>> again neither do the economists. >>>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good >>>> out >>>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >>>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are >>>> actualy >>>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >>>> to >>> >>>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >>>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of >>>> september. >>>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >>>> my >>> >>>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in >>>> Maine, >>>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>>> rate, >>> >>>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >>>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>>> Republicans or the independents. >>>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>>> sighted >>>> counterpart? >>>> Of course it is. >>>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>>> >>>> Ross >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Dennis, >>>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>>> positions. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Aser >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>>> in >>>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>>> All the best, >>>>>> Dennis >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, >>>>>> as >>>>>> I >>>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of >>>>>>> disability >>>>>>> though >>>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>>>> effort >>>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>>> sector >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>>> interview >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> target. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>>> jobs >>> >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>>>> offers >>>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>>> employed >>>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>>>> in >>> >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>>> > right >>>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> %0Ane.net >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>>> om< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> %0Aom >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >>> global.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >>> er.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: >>>> 11/20/10 >>>> 07:34:00 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn er.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa sktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 22 01:17:12 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 17:17:12 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server><7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC><7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind><939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> Message-ID: <112501cb89e2$fef75f70$6601a8c0@server> Hi Ross, Always good to hear from you. Please let's not limit ourselves to regional groups. Thee aren't enough of us as it is and with the use of the internet and essentially unlimited telephone service, we can form virtual law firms. As I hope my recent post have successfully argued, we must organize as a group and begin pushing as you also suggested. I downloaded a book from bookshare yesterday, I am half way through it, and I would greatly enjoy hearing what others think of the ideas and history contained in it. It is called, "THURGOOD MARSHALL: American Revolutionary" By Juan Williams. Marshall's struggles for employment in a world where lawyers of his color were unwelcome in law firms, where clients would not come to him because they did not trust the competence of lawyers who were black, and where those who were themselves black did not have enough money to hire him even when they did have legal problems, are very similar to our own struggles. Obviously, he made his own opportunity out of the discrimination which confronted him and all those like himself. We can do this too. We can accomplish a lot individually for blind people simply because we are lawyers, and we can achieve even more if we begin acting collectively. My view is that as a group we are among the most oppressed, and for the blind even the world of Plessy v. Ferguson would be an improvement, because separate but equal would be an improvement over our current condition of separate but unequal. Unfortunately, we as a group are not demanding equality, but rather we simply ask for accessibility, whatever that means, and in practice it means very little and falls way short of equality. My personality is such that I do not want us begging on street corners, nor do I want us to continue begging the government, private business, and nonprofit institutions to do that which they are obligated to do by law. This means we must start demanding and stop begging, because the two things are not the same. As you can see in the book about Marshal, he was not begging for equality, he was demanding it using his law license and the power that gave him as a club. I am committed to the idea that we must do the same thing and I am a total believer that this is the only way we will ever achieve equality. I look forward to hearing everyone else's ideas on how we can organize ourselves for support and collective action, as well as thoughts about the book and how Marshall's experiences can guide us as lawyers. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Mark, you're a philosopher? > Hey, someone help him get into law school before he gets away, . He can > argue with the best of us. For Pete's sake don't let him waste away his > life in some university philosophy department at low pay. He'll just end > up with a full beard and smoking a pipe like my old philosophy proff. > > All kidding aside, the underlying issue here, repeat "underlying issue" is > the unemployment rate among dedicated blind professionals who have chosen > the legal profession as their life work, or as work, not necessarily for > life. > We're blind and we don't fit the "norm" for employment strategies that > seem to work pretty good for our sighted counterparts. > So what are "we" going to do about it? > Can we agree that the usual BlindLaw "misquoted" and "mischaracterized" > and "Misunderstood my meaning" arguments are pretty well spent and have > gotten us the usual results. a clogged up list serve and nothing of > substance to show for it. > Lets try to set up some regional groups to strategize jobs and successful > tactics in our respective areas of the country. > How about pressuring bar associations to be pro-active for this particular > type of diversity? How about trying to rope in some of the real big-shot > law firms, I mean the movers and shakers who really dominate specified > areas of law in our respective states to put some action behind their > well-advertised standards of how much they really care about people out > there. > Thats my suggestion as a starting point. > Who has another idea to add to, or replace it? > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marc Workman" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:22 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, >> and >> we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. >> >> James said, >> Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these >> beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? >> >> I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. >> Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. >> >> When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people >> should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The >> emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it >> is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and >> hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind >> lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with >> well >> researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up >> plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before >> entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one >> that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received >> nearly as much disagreement. >> >> Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, >> or >> at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school >> entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less >> reasonable, >> harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because >> it >> is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented >> based on their and others's experiences. >> >> In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at >> least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I >> doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of >> blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at >> attaining >> adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in >> comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until >> that >> evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against >> the >> experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say >> that >> blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if >> we're >> just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly >> held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is >> difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and >> blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to >> eliminate the barriers they face. >> >> Best, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Weisberg" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Marc: >>> >>> You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people >>> should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were >>> saying >>> that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But >>> what >>> you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the >>> one >>> that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment >>> vs. >>> the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was >>> attempting >>> to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be >>> swell >>> for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not >>> make >>> sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of >>> whether you hold the same opinions? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken >>> out >>> of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right >>> that >>> you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original >>> post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts >>> responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you >>> responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. >>> >>> I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but >>> nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind >>> lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, >>> *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, >>> entirely >>> >>> within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were >>> responding. >>> >>> It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I >>> certainly >>> didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You >>> did >>> say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is >>> that >>> assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm >>> wrong, >>> is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued >>> that >>> blind people ought to forego law school. >>> >>> In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses >>> were >>> >>> to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for >>> blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your >>> comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind >>> lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the >>> legal >>> >>> profession. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Marc >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "James Weisberg" >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I >>>> was >>>> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law >>>> student >>>> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >>>> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >>>> you >>>> in case you just missed it: >>>> >>>> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >>>> obtaining >>>> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >>>> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >>>> school >>>> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >>>> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >>>> the >>>> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job >>>> offer >>>> it >>>> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >>>> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" >>>> both >>>> financially and time-wise. >>>> >>>> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >>>> capable >>>> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >>>> responses >>>> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >>>> "issues?" >>>> >>>> Respectfully~ >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Ross, >>>> >>>> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >>>> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough >>>> about >>>> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >>>> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >>>> That >>>> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond >>>> with >>>> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that >>>> started >>>> this all, in case some have forgotten: >>>> >>>> Curious: >>>> >>>> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at >>>> all???? >>>> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >>>> would >>>> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with >>>> vision >>>> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >>>> >>>> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >>>> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The >>>> blind >>>> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >>>> vision >>>> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out >>>> all >>>> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say >>>> that >>>> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >>>> profession >>>> >>>> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >>>> the >>>> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >>>> It's >>>> >>>> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >>>> >>>> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >>>> given >>>> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >>>> think >>>> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >>>> response >>>> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >>>> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >>>> it's >>>> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >>>> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >>>> appropriate response to me. >>>> >>>> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >>>> belief >>>> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue >>>> that >>>> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult >>>> for >>>> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >>>> you >>>> will find any disagreement on this list. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Marc >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ross Doerr" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>>>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts >>>>> to >>>>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>>>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>>>> of >>>>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there >>>>> and >>>>> do >>>> >>>>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were >>>>> aimed >>>>> at >>>> >>>>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>>>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate >>>>> among >>>>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a >>>>> feel >>>>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>>>> the >>>> >>>>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>>>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>>>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>>>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>>>> and >>>> >>>>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit >>>>> ranges >>>>> as >>>> >>>>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>>>> spite >>>> >>>>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>>>> States. >>>>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>>>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>>>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, >>>>> it >>>>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and >>>>> CLE >>>>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>>>> in >>>>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>>>> for >>>>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>>>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>>>> to >>>>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>>>> transportation >>>> >>>>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding >>>>> SGA >>>>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>>>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>>>> you >>>> >>>>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>>>> lets >>>> >>>>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>>>> because >>>>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>>>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>>>> malpractice. >>>>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library >>>>> anywhere? >>>>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial >>>>> work >>>>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting >>>>> monthly? >>>>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If >>>>> you're >>>>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation >>>>> of >>>>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you >>>>> MUST >>>>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>>>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>>>> SGA >>>> >>>>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>>>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>>>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>>>> blind. >>>>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>>>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice >>>>> for >>>>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>>>> services >>>>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>>>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't >>>>> have >>>>> to >>>> >>>>> put up with. >>>>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, >>>>> so >>>>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>>>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for >>>>> them. >>>>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to >>>>> all >>>>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>>>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>>>> good >>>> >>>>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. >>>>> Those >>>>> of >>>> >>>>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research >>>>> on >>>>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>>>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>>>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>>>> to >>>>> fix the depression that we are in. >>>>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>>>> that >>>> >>>>> observation? >>>>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants >>>>> to >>>>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>>>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness >>>>> not >>>>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase >>>>> the >>>>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>>>> planning >>>> >>>>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>>>> forestall >>>> >>>>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>>>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>>>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>>>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut >>>>> that >>>>> area as well. >>>>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>>>> then >>>>> again neither do the economists. >>>>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good >>>>> out >>>>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>>>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always >>>>> be >>>>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are >>>>> actualy >>>>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>>>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>>>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? >>>>> Only >>>>> to >>>> >>>>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do >>>>> it >>>>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>>>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of >>>>> september. >>>>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>>>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself >>>>> and >>>>> my >>>> >>>>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in >>>>> Maine, >>>>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>>>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>>>> rate, >>>> >>>>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what >>>>> the >>>>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>>>> Republicans or the independents. >>>>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>>>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>>>> sighted >>>>> counterpart? >>>>> Of course it is. >>>>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>>>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>>>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>>>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>>>> >>>>> Ross >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Dennis, >>>>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>>>> positions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Aser >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>>>> All the best, >>>>>>> Dennis >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of >>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>> though >>>>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> effort >>>>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>>>> sector >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision >>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>>>> interview >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> target. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>>>> jobs >>>> >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to >>>>>>>>> receive >>>>>>>>> offers >>>>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>>>> employed >>>>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>>> in >>>> >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>>>> > right >>>>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>> %0Ane.net >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>>>> om< >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> %0Aom >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >>>> global.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >>>> er.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: >>>>> 11/20/10 >>>>> 07:34:00 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 07:35:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From devinenora at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 02:31:56 2010 From: devinenora at gmail.com (Nora Devine) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:31:56 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities Message-ID: Hi! Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed to register for classes before all other students. My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also often left with very little time to convert course materials and text books. Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. Thanks so much for you help!! - Nora -- Best Regards, Nora Devine Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 University of San Francisco School of Law Tel: 510-508-4209 devinenora at gmail.com From withat at msn.com Mon Nov 22 04:43:53 2010 From: withat at msn.com (Johnston) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:43:53 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] navigating the FRCPs References: Message-ID: Hello list, Has anyone learned a quick way of navigating volumes like the FRCPs? I'm reading them from a Word document. So far, I'm able to quickly navigate to the particular rule using Word's find function, but getting to particular sections has involved a lot of down arrowing. If it is section r, subsection 8, subsubsection j, it takes a while to find. JAWS has a function (I haven't learned it yet) where the cursor in Word moves like the pc cursor in a web browser. Perhaps if the rules, sections, subsections, etc. were formatted in heading levels, I could more quickly skip to the desired location. Has anyone tried this method? Thanks much. Jay in Portland From carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 05:18:27 2010 From: carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com (Kate Carroll) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 00:18:27 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] navigating the FRCPs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay in Portland, I don't know how much this will help, but have you tried using the Cornell website for the FRCP? http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/ Sometimes I use the search function in my browser to find a Rule, click on the link, and then search again within that Rule for the section I need. I'm not a JAWS user, so i can't comment on that. Kate On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Johnston wrote: > Hello list, > > Has anyone learned a quick way of navigating volumes like the FRCPs? I'm > reading them from a Word document. So far, I'm able to quickly navigate to > the particular rule using Word's find function, but getting to particular > sections has involved a lot of down arrowing. If it is section r, > subsection 8, subsubsection j, it takes a while to find. > > JAWS has a function (I haven't learned it yet) where the cursor in Word > moves like the pc cursor in a web browser. Perhaps if the rules, sections, > subsections, etc. were formatted in heading levels, I could more quickly > skip to the desired location. Has anyone tried this method? > > Thanks much. > > Jay in Portland > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > -- Kathryn CARROLL St. John's University College of Law 2013 631-521-3018 From dbeitz at wiennergould.com Mon Nov 22 15:03:17 2010 From: dbeitz at wiennergould.com (Daniel K. Beitz) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:03:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I bet Michigan State does. Try them. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nora Devine Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:32 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities Hi! Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed to register for classes before all other students. My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also often left with very little time to convert course materials and text books. Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. Thanks so much for you help!! - Nora -- Best Regards, Nora Devine Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 University of San Francisco School of Law Tel: 510-508-4209 devinenora at gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Mon Nov 22 15:09:07 2010 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 08:09:07 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E77C@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Check with U of Arizona as well - I do not know for sure, but there were many in school when I was thee, and since, who had disabilities and handicaps, sometimes multiple(visual, hearing, and physical). -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Daniel K. Beitz Sent: Monday, 22 November, 2010 8:03 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities I bet Michigan State does. Try them. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nora Devine Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:32 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities Hi! Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed to register for classes before all other students. My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also often left with very little time to convert course materials and text books. Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. Thanks so much for you help!! - Nora -- Best Regards, Nora Devine Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 University of San Francisco School of Law Tel: 510-508-4209 devinenora at gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wienn ergo uld.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov From dbeitz at wiennergould.com Mon Nov 22 15:25:35 2010 From: dbeitz at wiennergould.com (Daniel K. Beitz) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:25:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <112501cb89e2$fef75f70$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server><7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC><7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind><939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> <112501cb89e2$fef75f70$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <3D0B8C23FFC54003BDCACD75EFB31A62@DHRL6TC1> Hello: I am a new subscriber to this list serve. Perhaps my story can help. I currently work for a vehicle warranty law firm in the Detroit area. I have been practicing for 18 years. What made the difference for me is finding one person who believed in me and gave me a chance. In law school, I interviewed 50 times in four weeks without a single job offer, when my classmates were doing very well. On the 51st try, I landed a job at a big firm that probably only hired me because they paid poorly and needed graduates from my law school to put on the firm resume. I nevertheless did very well, and have not really been unemployed for the past 15 years. In 1995, I started my own practice. A friend of mine from law school who was corporate counsel at a small auto supplier, hired me to try and quash subpoenas sent to factory human resource directors for the testimony of corporate employees. The lawyer was simply trying to harass the company that his opposing party worked for. This was not exactly rewarding work, but I got good results, and things grew from there. I also signed up with the county to defend hospitalized crazy people in involuntary commitment hearings. Believe me, these people needed to be involuntarily committed, and the work was kind of a joke. Nevertheless, I got to know the judges who assigned the cases, and made a little money. So, the trick is to get started doing something, anything, and in a few years, maybe you'll get somewhere. I don't believe that the law has all that many accessibility barriers to the blind, as other fields might have. The only hindrance is bigoted lawyers. You can't entirely over come that, but you can still succeed in spite of it. Thus, I would not discourage a blind person from going to law school if it is really what he/she wants to do. However, it is a good idea to take stock of the current state of the profession. The profession is simply over staffed for the amount of work. There are many unemployed or under employed sighted lawyers, so things are certainly not going to be easy for a blind attorney, particularly a new lawyer. Hope this helps. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:17 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Hi Ross, Always good to hear from you. Please let's not limit ourselves to regional groups. Thee aren't enough of us as it is and with the use of the internet and essentially unlimited telephone service, we can form virtual law firms. As I hope my recent post have successfully argued, we must organize as a group and begin pushing as you also suggested. I downloaded a book from bookshare yesterday, I am half way through it, and I would greatly enjoy hearing what others think of the ideas and history contained in it. It is called, "THURGOOD MARSHALL: American Revolutionary" By Juan Williams. Marshall's struggles for employment in a world where lawyers of his color were unwelcome in law firms, where clients would not come to him because they did not trust the competence of lawyers who were black, and where those who were themselves black did not have enough money to hire him even when they did have legal problems, are very similar to our own struggles. Obviously, he made his own opportunity out of the discrimination which confronted him and all those like himself. We can do this too. We can accomplish a lot individually for blind people simply because we are lawyers, and we can achieve even more if we begin acting collectively. My view is that as a group we are among the most oppressed, and for the blind even the world of Plessy v. Ferguson would be an improvement, because separate but equal would be an improvement over our current condition of separate but unequal. Unfortunately, we as a group are not demanding equality, but rather we simply ask for accessibility, whatever that means, and in practice it means very little and falls way short of equality. My personality is such that I do not want us begging on street corners, nor do I want us to continue begging the government, private business, and nonprofit institutions to do that which they are obligated to do by law. This means we must start demanding and stop begging, because the two things are not the same. As you can see in the book about Marshal, he was not begging for equality, he was demanding it using his law license and the power that gave him as a club. I am committed to the idea that we must do the same thing and I am a total believer that this is the only way we will ever achieve equality. I look forward to hearing everyone else's ideas on how we can organize ourselves for support and collective action, as well as thoughts about the book and how Marshall's experiences can guide us as lawyers. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Mark, you're a philosopher? > Hey, someone help him get into law school before he gets away, . He can > argue with the best of us. For Pete's sake don't let him waste away his > life in some university philosophy department at low pay. He'll just end > up with a full beard and smoking a pipe like my old philosophy proff. > > All kidding aside, the underlying issue here, repeat "underlying issue" is > the unemployment rate among dedicated blind professionals who have chosen > the legal profession as their life work, or as work, not necessarily for > life. > We're blind and we don't fit the "norm" for employment strategies that > seem to work pretty good for our sighted counterparts. > So what are "we" going to do about it? > Can we agree that the usual BlindLaw "misquoted" and "mischaracterized" > and "Misunderstood my meaning" arguments are pretty well spent and have > gotten us the usual results. a clogged up list serve and nothing of > substance to show for it. > Lets try to set up some regional groups to strategize jobs and successful > tactics in our respective areas of the country. > How about pressuring bar associations to be pro-active for this particular > type of diversity? How about trying to rope in some of the real big-shot > law firms, I mean the movers and shakers who really dominate specified > areas of law in our respective states to put some action behind their > well-advertised standards of how much they really care about people out > there. > Thats my suggestion as a starting point. > Who has another idea to add to, or replace it? > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marc Workman" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:22 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, >> and >> we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. >> >> James said, >> Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these >> beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? >> >> I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. >> Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. >> >> When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people >> should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The >> emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it >> is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and >> hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind >> lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with >> well >> researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up >> plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before >> entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one >> that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received >> nearly as much disagreement. >> >> Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, >> or >> at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school >> entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less >> reasonable, >> harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because >> it >> is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented >> based on their and others's experiences. >> >> In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at >> least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I >> doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of >> blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at >> attaining >> adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in >> comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until >> that >> evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against >> the >> experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say >> that >> blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if >> we're >> just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly >> held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is >> difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and >> blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to >> eliminate the barriers they face. >> >> Best, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Weisberg" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Marc: >>> >>> You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people >>> should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were >>> saying >>> that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But >>> what >>> you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the >>> one >>> that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment >>> vs. >>> the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was >>> attempting >>> to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be >>> swell >>> for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not >>> make >>> sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of >>> whether you hold the same opinions? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken >>> out >>> of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right >>> that >>> you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original >>> post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts >>> responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you >>> responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. >>> >>> I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but >>> nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind >>> lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, >>> *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, >>> entirely >>> >>> within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were >>> responding. >>> >>> It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I >>> certainly >>> didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You >>> did >>> say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is >>> that >>> assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm >>> wrong, >>> is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued >>> that >>> blind people ought to forego law school. >>> >>> In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses >>> were >>> >>> to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for >>> blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your >>> comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind >>> lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the >>> legal >>> >>> profession. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Marc >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "James Weisberg" >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I >>>> was >>>> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law >>>> student >>>> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >>>> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >>>> you >>>> in case you just missed it: >>>> >>>> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >>>> obtaining >>>> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >>>> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >>>> school >>>> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >>>> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >>>> the >>>> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job >>>> offer >>>> it >>>> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >>>> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" >>>> both >>>> financially and time-wise. >>>> >>>> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >>>> capable >>>> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >>>> responses >>>> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >>>> "issues?" >>>> >>>> Respectfully~ >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Ross, >>>> >>>> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >>>> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough >>>> about >>>> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >>>> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >>>> That >>>> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond >>>> with >>>> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that >>>> started >>>> this all, in case some have forgotten: >>>> >>>> Curious: >>>> >>>> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at >>>> all???? >>>> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >>>> would >>>> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with >>>> vision >>>> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >>>> >>>> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >>>> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The >>>> blind >>>> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >>>> vision >>>> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out >>>> all >>>> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say >>>> that >>>> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >>>> profession >>>> >>>> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >>>> the >>>> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >>>> It's >>>> >>>> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >>>> >>>> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >>>> given >>>> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >>>> think >>>> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >>>> response >>>> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >>>> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >>>> it's >>>> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >>>> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >>>> appropriate response to me. >>>> >>>> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >>>> belief >>>> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue >>>> that >>>> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult >>>> for >>>> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >>>> you >>>> will find any disagreement on this list. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Marc >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ross Doerr" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>>>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts >>>>> to >>>>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>>>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>>>> of >>>>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there >>>>> and >>>>> do >>>> >>>>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were >>>>> aimed >>>>> at >>>> >>>>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>>>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate >>>>> among >>>>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a >>>>> feel >>>>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>>>> the >>>> >>>>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>>>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>>>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>>>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>>>> and >>>> >>>>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit >>>>> ranges >>>>> as >>>> >>>>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>>>> spite >>>> >>>>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>>>> States. >>>>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>>>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>>>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, >>>>> it >>>>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and >>>>> CLE >>>>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>>>> in >>>>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>>>> for >>>>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>>>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>>>> to >>>>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>>>> transportation >>>> >>>>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding >>>>> SGA >>>>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>>>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>>>> you >>>> >>>>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>>>> lets >>>> >>>>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>>>> because >>>>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>>>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>>>> malpractice. >>>>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library >>>>> anywhere? >>>>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial >>>>> work >>>>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting >>>>> monthly? >>>>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If >>>>> you're >>>>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation >>>>> of >>>>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you >>>>> MUST >>>>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>>>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>>>> SGA >>>> >>>>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>>>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>>>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>>>> blind. >>>>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>>>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice >>>>> for >>>>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>>>> services >>>>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>>>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't >>>>> have >>>>> to >>>> >>>>> put up with. >>>>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, >>>>> so >>>>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>>>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for >>>>> them. >>>>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to >>>>> all >>>>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>>>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>>>> good >>>> >>>>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. >>>>> Those >>>>> of >>>> >>>>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research >>>>> on >>>>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>>>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>>>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>>>> to >>>>> fix the depression that we are in. >>>>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>>>> that >>>> >>>>> observation? >>>>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants >>>>> to >>>>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>>>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness >>>>> not >>>>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase >>>>> the >>>>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>>>> planning >>>> >>>>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>>>> forestall >>>> >>>>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>>>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>>>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>>>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut >>>>> that >>>>> area as well. >>>>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>>>> then >>>>> again neither do the economists. >>>>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good >>>>> out >>>>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>>>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always >>>>> be >>>>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are >>>>> actualy >>>>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>>>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>>>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? >>>>> Only >>>>> to >>>> >>>>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do >>>>> it >>>>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>>>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of >>>>> september. >>>>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>>>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself >>>>> and >>>>> my >>>> >>>>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in >>>>> Maine, >>>>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>>>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>>>> rate, >>>> >>>>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what >>>>> the >>>>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>>>> Republicans or the independents. >>>>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>>>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>>>> sighted >>>>> counterpart? >>>>> Of course it is. >>>>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>>>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>>>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>>>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>>>> >>>>> Ross >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Dennis, >>>>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>>>> positions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Aser >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>>>> All the best, >>>>>>> Dennis >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of >>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>> though >>>>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> effort >>>>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>>>> sector >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision >>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>>>> interview >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> target. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>>>> jobs >>>> >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to >>>>>>>>> receive >>>>>>>>> offers >>>>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>>>> employed >>>>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>>> in >>>> >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>>>> > right >>>>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>> %0Ane.net >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>>>> om< >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> %0Aom >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >>>> global.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >>>> er.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: >>>>> 11/20/10 >>>>> 07:34:00 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn er.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 07:35:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com From dbeitz at wiennergould.com Mon Nov 22 15:28:08 2010 From: dbeitz at wiennergould.com (Daniel K. Beitz) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:28:08 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><9B9B323CC33D4F2EB9887074C5373F86@Blind> Message-ID: Joe has the right idea. Work, work and more work is the only way to make it. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:44 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Man, I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but it would appear that if one did less posting on this list and did more job searching, a job offer might be more achievable! Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:34 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Employ yourself Acer and go out and get some clients!! Start pro bono if you have to as I did. You can do it just don't wait around for a job offer!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ross Doerr Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:29 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Aser, keep at it and don't give up. And, as you can tell from all of these posts, "true lawyers" can, and will argue over anything and everything. Seriously, use your imagination and be professional at all times, sooner or later you will get employed, and you will no doubt be good at it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >>I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >> though >> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >> wrote: >> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> > James: >>> > >>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> > persons >>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> > evidence >>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> > lawyers, >>> > who are working. >>> > >>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> > right >>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> > bad >>> > economy penalty. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> > ZERO job offers >>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> > extremely low >>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> > to discuss. >>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> > career is to not >>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> > than ever >>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> > invest the >>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > info for blindlaw: >>> > >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurl ey%40optonli >>> ne.net >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.n ightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-l aw%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtole ntino%40gmai l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep .deeley%40in sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpol e%40roadrunn er.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-l aw%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com From sarahandfamily at live.com Mon Nov 22 22:45:56 2010 From: sarahandfamily at live.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 16:45:56 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Message-ID: Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah From Daniel.Frye at ed.gov Tue Nov 23 12:11:32 2010 From: Daniel.Frye at ed.gov (Frye, Daniel) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 06:11:32 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov> Sarah: I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who have more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can tell you these things: Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. I don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. If you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based on your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but potentially rewarding journey. Be well. Daniel B. Frye, J.D. Management and Program Specialist Randolph-Sheppard Programs U.S. Department of Education Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services Rehabilitation Services Administration 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 Washington, DC  20202-2800 (202) 245-7308 office (202) 245-7591 fax (410) 241-7006 mobile daniel.frye at ed.gov -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.gov From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 23 13:13:46 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 05:13:46 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov> Message-ID: <1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server> Hello Sarah, My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law school in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I applied I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly admitted and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I can say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must apply. Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me off list if I can help. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frye, Daniel" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Sarah: I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who have more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can tell you these things: Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. I don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. If you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based on your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but potentially rewarding journey. Be well. Daniel B. Frye, J.D. Management and Program Specialist Randolph-Sheppard Programs U.S. Department of Education Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services Rehabilitation Services Administration 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 Washington, DC 20202-2800 (202) 245-7308 office (202) 245-7591 fax (410) 241-7006 mobile daniel.frye at ed.gov -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From joramsey at cox.net Tue Nov 23 13:28:33 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 08:28:33 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: <1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server> References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov> <1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: Hello Sarah: I graduated from law school in 2006 so I am a recent graduate. I did not set an arbitrary number of schools but I did choose schools where I thought I had a realistic chance of getting in and I also chose schools where I would like to live while attending law school. I ended up going to school in Virginia and taking the Florida Bar. I echo Dennis's statements that you should definitely make yourself look as good on paper as you can. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:14 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello Sarah, My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law school in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I applied I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly admitted and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I can say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must apply. Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me off list if I can help. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frye, Daniel" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Sarah: I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who have more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can tell you these things: Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. I don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. If you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based on your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but potentially rewarding journey. Be well. Daniel B. Frye, J.D. Management and Program Specialist Randolph-Sheppard Programs U.S. Department of Education Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services Rehabilitation Services Administration 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 Washington, DC 20202-2800 (202) 245-7308 office (202) 245-7591 fax (410) 241-7006 mobile daniel.frye at ed.gov -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.g ov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 23 15:48:53 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 09:48:53 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov> <1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945> when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going by? Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have their parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that doesn't have the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and the law school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello Sarah, My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law school in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I applied I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly admitted and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I can say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must apply. Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me off list if I can help. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frye, Daniel" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Sarah: I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who have more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can tell you these things: Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. I don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. If you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based on your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but potentially rewarding journey. Be well. Daniel B. Frye, J.D. Management and Program Specialist Randolph-Sheppard Programs U.S. Department of Education Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services Rehabilitation Services Administration 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 Washington, DC 20202-2800 (202) 245-7308 office (202) 245-7591 fax (410) 241-7006 mobile daniel.frye at ed.gov -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 23 16:42:25 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 08:42:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov><1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server> <0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945> Message-ID: <200401cb8b2d$696d48b0$6601a8c0@server> Hello Blain, Where did you get the information that the parents of Harvard Law School students are paying for their educations any more than is true at all other law schools? I sincerely doubt it. When I looked recently, I was astonished to see that the highest ranked law schools and those toward the bottom of the rankings cost very close to the same. The rankings I was referring to would be the U.S. News rankings. My claim is that it is much easier to get a job as a lawyer when you go to a highly ranked law school, and I think this can be confirmed. This concern is more true today, then when I attended law school 20 years ago given the current high attorney unemployment. The advice I was given when I was applying to law school was to go to the one which admitted me that had the highest ranking. That worked out well for me and this is the same advice I would give today to my spouse, children and friends. My view is that law school is an investment like any other, and it seems sensible to me to invest in the entity which is most likely to give me the highest return on my investment, even though we can never know for sure about any investment in advance. Finally, I was not intending to insult any law schools in Texas by only citing the University of Texas at Austin. It has had a sterling reputation for at least the last 75 years, and when I last looked at the rankings I think it was in the top 10, and Sarah mentioned that she wanted to stay in Texas and that is the only reason I brought it up. I know there are many views on the topic of law school rankings, and I would enjoy hearing your thoughts. I look forward to hearing from you. Warmest regards, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going by? > Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have > their > parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that doesn't > have > the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and the > law > school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Hello Sarah, > My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law > school > in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. > It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I > applied > I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly > admitted > and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I > can > say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely > unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the > top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to > as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just > need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My > advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must > apply. > Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the > best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done > this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and > you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that > best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me > off > list if I can help. > All the best, > Dennis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frye, Daniel" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Sarah: > > I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who > have > more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in > 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different > now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable > testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can > tell > you these things: > > Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. > I > don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so > long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you > potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, > only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're > prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess > the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. > If > you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to > incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. > Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better > ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether > law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based > on > your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in > general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but > potentially > rewarding journey. > > Be well. > > > Daniel B. Frye, J.D. > Management and Program Specialist > Randolph-Sheppard Programs > U.S. Department of Education > Office of Special Education > and Rehabilitative Services > Rehabilitation Services Administration > 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 > Washington, DC 20202-2800 > (202) 245-7308 office > (202) 245-7591 fax > (410) 241-7006 mobile > daniel.frye at ed.gov > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available > in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees > waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank > you. > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 23 16:55:45 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:55:45 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov> <1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server> <0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945> <200401cb8b2d$696d48b0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <46B8A49699D647F8A584BD78BE837C90@GPD945> when looking at a high ranked law school what are some things that you're looking at? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello Blain, Where did you get the information that the parents of Harvard Law School students are paying for their educations any more than is true at all other law schools? I sincerely doubt it. When I looked recently, I was astonished to see that the highest ranked law schools and those toward the bottom of the rankings cost very close to the same. The rankings I was referring to would be the U.S. News rankings. My claim is that it is much easier to get a job as a lawyer when you go to a highly ranked law school, and I think this can be confirmed. This concern is more true today, then when I attended law school 20 years ago given the current high attorney unemployment. The advice I was given when I was applying to law school was to go to the one which admitted me that had the highest ranking. That worked out well for me and this is the same advice I would give today to my spouse, children and friends. My view is that law school is an investment like any other, and it seems sensible to me to invest in the entity which is most likely to give me the highest return on my investment, even though we can never know for sure about any investment in advance. Finally, I was not intending to insult any law schools in Texas by only citing the University of Texas at Austin. It has had a sterling reputation for at least the last 75 years, and when I last looked at the rankings I think it was in the top 10, and Sarah mentioned that she wanted to stay in Texas and that is the only reason I brought it up. I know there are many views on the topic of law school rankings, and I would enjoy hearing your thoughts. I look forward to hearing from you. Warmest regards, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going by? > Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have > their > parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that doesn't > have > the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and the > law > school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Hello Sarah, > My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law > school > in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. > It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I > applied > I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly > admitted > and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I > can > say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely > unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the > top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to > as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just > need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My > advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must > apply. > Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the > best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done > this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and > you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that > best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me > off > list if I can help. > All the best, > Dennis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frye, Daniel" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Sarah: > > I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who > have > more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in > 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different > now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable > testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can > tell > you these things: > > Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. > I > don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so > long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you > potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, > only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're > prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess > the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. > If > you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to > incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. > Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better > ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether > law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based > on > your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in > general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but > potentially > rewarding journey. > > Be well. > > > Daniel B. Frye, J.D. > Management and Program Specialist > Randolph-Sheppard Programs > U.S. Department of Education > Office of Special Education > and Rehabilitative Services > Rehabilitation Services Administration > 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 > Washington, DC 20202-2800 > (202) 245-7308 office > (202) 245-7591 fax > (410) 241-7006 mobile > daniel.frye at ed.gov > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available > in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees > waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank > you. > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From joramsey at cox.net Tue Nov 23 17:02:00 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:02:00 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: <46B8A49699D647F8A584BD78BE837C90@GPD945> References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov><1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server><0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945><200401cb8b2d$696d48b0$6601a8c0@server> <46B8A49699D647F8A584BD78BE837C90@GPD945> Message-ID: <9F0CAA95B8804057982DA64DE529CBAE@noneeb869fea9a> One of the most looked at factors is the school's bar passage rate for first time takers. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:56 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information when looking at a high ranked law school what are some things that you're looking at? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello Blain, Where did you get the information that the parents of Harvard Law School students are paying for their educations any more than is true at all other law schools? I sincerely doubt it. When I looked recently, I was astonished to see that the highest ranked law schools and those toward the bottom of the rankings cost very close to the same. The rankings I was referring to would be the U.S. News rankings. My claim is that it is much easier to get a job as a lawyer when you go to a highly ranked law school, and I think this can be confirmed. This concern is more true today, then when I attended law school 20 years ago given the current high attorney unemployment. The advice I was given when I was applying to law school was to go to the one which admitted me that had the highest ranking. That worked out well for me and this is the same advice I would give today to my spouse, children and friends. My view is that law school is an investment like any other, and it seems sensible to me to invest in the entity which is most likely to give me the highest return on my investment, even though we can never know for sure about any investment in advance. Finally, I was not intending to insult any law schools in Texas by only citing the University of Texas at Austin. It has had a sterling reputation for at least the last 75 years, and when I last looked at the rankings I think it was in the top 10, and Sarah mentioned that she wanted to stay in Texas and that is the only reason I brought it up. I know there are many views on the topic of law school rankings, and I would enjoy hearing your thoughts. I look forward to hearing from you. Warmest regards, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going by? > Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have > their > parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that doesn't > have > the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and the > law > school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Hello Sarah, > My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law > school > in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. > It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I > applied > I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly > admitted > and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I > can > say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely > unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the > top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to > as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just > need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My > advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must > apply. > Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the > best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done > this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and > you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that > best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me > off > list if I can help. > All the best, > Dennis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frye, Daniel" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Sarah: > > I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who > have > more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in > 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different > now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable > testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can > tell > you these things: > > Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. > I > don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so > long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you > potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, > only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're > prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess > the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. > If > you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to > incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. > Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better > ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether > law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based > on > your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in > general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but > potentially > rewarding journey. > > Be well. > > > Daniel B. Frye, J.D. > Management and Program Specialist > Randolph-Sheppard Programs > U.S. Department of Education > Office of Special Education > and Rehabilitative Services > Rehabilitation Services Administration > 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 > Washington, DC 20202-2800 > (202) 245-7308 office > (202) 245-7591 fax > (410) 241-7006 mobile > daniel.frye at ed.gov > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available > in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees > waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank > you. > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.g ov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa sktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa sktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Tue Nov 23 17:07:27 2010 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:07:27 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: <9F0CAA95B8804057982DA64DE529CBAE@noneeb869fea9a> References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov><1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server><0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945><200401cb8b2d$696d48b0$6601a8c0@server> <46B8A49699D647F8A584BD78BE837C90@GPD945> <9F0CAA95B8804057982DA64DE529CBAE@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E788@EVS02.central.pima.gov> At least when I went, another suggestion was to pick a school (or schools) in the general geographic area one thought he or she might want to set up practice - for example, given the differences in family law and water law provisions here in Arizona, it was though to be wiser to attend a school in this area of the country so that a person could get more exposure to those unique laws. Just a thought, though. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 10:02 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information One of the most looked at factors is the school's bar passage rate for first time takers. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:56 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information when looking at a high ranked law school what are some things that you're looking at? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello Blain, Where did you get the information that the parents of Harvard Law School students are paying for their educations any more than is true at all other law schools? I sincerely doubt it. When I looked recently, I was astonished to see that the highest ranked law schools and those toward the bottom of the rankings cost very close to the same. The rankings I was referring to would be the U.S. News rankings. My claim is that it is much easier to get a job as a lawyer when you go to a highly ranked law school, and I think this can be confirmed. This concern is more true today, then when I attended law school 20 years ago given the current high attorney unemployment. The advice I was given when I was applying to law school was to go to the one which admitted me that had the highest ranking. That worked out well for me and this is the same advice I would give today to my spouse, children and friends. My view is that law school is an investment like any other, and it seems sensible to me to invest in the entity which is most likely to give me the highest return on my investment, even though we can never know for sure about any investment in advance. Finally, I was not intending to insult any law schools in Texas by only citing the University of Texas at Austin. It has had a sterling reputation for at least the last 75 years, and when I last looked at the rankings I think it was in the top 10, and Sarah mentioned that she wanted to stay in Texas and that is the only reason I brought it up. I know there are many views on the topic of law school rankings, and I would enjoy hearing your thoughts. I look forward to hearing from you. Warmest regards, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going by? > Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have > their > parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that doesn't > have > the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and the > law > school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Hello Sarah, > My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law > school > in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. > It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I > applied > I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly > admitted > and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I > can > say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely > unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the > top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to > as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just > need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My > advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must > apply. > Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the > best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done > this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and > you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that > best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me > off > list if I can help. > All the best, > Dennis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frye, Daniel" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Sarah: > > I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who > have > more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in > 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different > now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable > testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can > tell > you these things: > > Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. > I > don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so > long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you > potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, > only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're > prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess > the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. > If > you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to > incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. > Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better > ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether > law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based > on > your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in > general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but > potentially > rewarding journey. > > Be well. > > > Daniel B. Frye, J.D. > Management and Program Specialist > Randolph-Sheppard Programs > U.S. Department of Education > Office of Special Education > and Rehabilitative Services > Rehabilitation Services Administration > 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 > Washington, DC 20202-2800 > (202) 245-7308 office > (202) 245-7591 fax > (410) 241-7006 mobile > daniel.frye at ed.gov > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available > in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees > waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank > you. > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40 ed.g ov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 0sbc global.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% 40sa sktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 0sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% 40sa sktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox .net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov From awilusa at yahoo.com Wed Nov 24 17:06:28 2010 From: awilusa at yahoo.com (awilusa at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:06:28 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a year. I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies require experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, I am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move to attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen years in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession that would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such as the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I would like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind lawyer should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring process. the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the legal profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on the creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the "lucky" one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as I believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and law degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview with the Fed myself! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James: I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on target. I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I now practice for the federal government. I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at private firms. I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers of employment to practice in the private sector. Noel Nightingale -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who are blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless they can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because my point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I have been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers who were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to "astronomical." *smile* -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with Dennis' post wholeheartedly. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > James: > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > persons > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > evidence > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > lawyers, > who are working. > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > right > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > bad > economy penalty. > > Dave > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > ZERO job offers > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > extremely low > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > to discuss. > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > career is to not > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > than ever > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > THE WAY IT IS! > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > invest the > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 0ed.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com From dbeitz at wiennergould.com Tue Nov 23 18:14:57 2010 From: dbeitz at wiennergould.com (Daniel K. Beitz) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:14:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many lawyers get into is having to pay back loans. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 23 18:26:02 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:26:02 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: Message-ID: <5474A8DCA2744DA48C0BB7EB89AEF78E@GPD945> yeah and when the average is $10000 per year equaling $30000 for the three year law degree plus your four year undergraduate program that is about $2000 per year, Equaling $8000 after four years so in total after a law degree and a undergraduate degree you're looking at $39000. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many lawyers get into is having to pay back loans. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 23 18:28:34 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:28:34 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one year of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law firm. A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that one year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like you then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might pay for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to the firm. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a year. I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies require experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, I am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move to attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen years in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession that would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such as the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I would like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind lawyer should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring process. the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the legal profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on the creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the "lucky" one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as I believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and law degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview with the Fed myself! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James: I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on target. I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I now practice for the federal government. I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at private firms. I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers of employment to practice in the private sector. Noel Nightingale -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who are blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless they can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because my point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I have been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers who were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to "astronomical." *smile* -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with Dennis' post wholeheartedly. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > James: > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > persons > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > evidence > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > lawyers, > who are working. > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > right > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > bad > economy penalty. > > Dave > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > ZERO job offers > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > extremely low > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > to discuss. > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > career is to not > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > than ever > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > THE WAY IT IS! > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > invest the > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 0ed.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From jsorozco at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 18:39:30 2010 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:39:30 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: <5474A8DCA2744DA48C0BB7EB89AEF78E@GPD945> References: <5474A8DCA2744DA48C0BB7EB89AEF78E@GPD945> Message-ID: <70E7CE46C3BF4D23990774A39B3EF2FD@Rufus> Ten thousand a year for law school in Canada? Wow, my program was charging a little over three times that had I gone. If I change my tune about law school, I'm headed north! LOL Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:26 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information yeah and when the average is $10000 per year equaling $30000 for the three year law degree plus your four year undergraduate program that is about $2000 per year, Equaling $8000 after four years so in total after a law degree and a undergraduate degree you're looking at $39000. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many lawyers get into is having to pay back loans. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz %40wiennergo uld.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.de utscher%40sasktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com From goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 23 18:42:19 2010 From: goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net (Sarah Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:42:19 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <5474A8DCA2744DA48C0BB7EB89AEF78E@GPD945> Message-ID: <006901cb8b3e$292ba330$6701a8c0@computer2> Blaine, I know you're in Canada, but in this country the average law school tuition is a lot higher than that -- over $30,000 per year. (private schools being around $40,000 and public varying from around $15,000 to around $25,000). Sarah Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > yeah and when the average is $10000 per year equaling $30000 for the three > year law degree plus your four year undergraduate program that is about > $2000 per year, Equaling $8000 after four years so in total after a law > degree and a undergraduate degree you're looking at $39000. > > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel K. Beitz" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:14 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many lawyers get > into is having to pay back loans. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Daniel K. Beitz > Wienner & Gould, P.C. > 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 > Rochester, MI 48307 > Phone: (248) 841-9405 > Fax: (248) 652-2729 > dbeitz at wiennergould.com > This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email > messages > attached > to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If > you are > not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering > this > email > to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > copying, > or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or > attached to > this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication > in > error, > please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by > telephoning > us at (248) 841-9400. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available > in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees > waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank > you. > > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo > uld.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcglobal.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 23 19:22:55 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:22:55 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <5474A8DCA2744DA48C0BB7EB89AEF78E@GPD945> <70E7CE46C3BF4D23990774A39B3EF2FD@Rufus> Message-ID: <3BEE2109395440C7848BC1FDB27D6F43@GPD945> That was Saskatchewan however. that included textbooks too. I'm not sure what the other schools charge, larger centres might charge a little more. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Ten thousand a year for law school in Canada? Wow, my program was charging a little over three times that had I gone. If I change my tune about law school, I'm headed north! LOL Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:26 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information yeah and when the average is $10000 per year equaling $30000 for the three year law degree plus your four year undergraduate program that is about $2000 per year, Equaling $8000 after four years so in total after a law degree and a undergraduate degree you're looking at $39000. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many lawyers get into is having to pay back loans. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz %40wiennergo uld.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.de utscher%40sasktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From clucas at disabilitypride.com Tue Nov 23 19:36:55 2010 From: clucas at disabilitypride.com (clucas at disabilitypride.com) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 19:36:55 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Message-ID: <1431637062-1290541015-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-211350882-@bda611.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I have found this thread to be interesting. I am statutorily blind, deaf and have a severe physical disability. I had a job coming out of law school, but recently had to stop working for pay and now volunteer. This is due to my physical disability and my need for attendant care. I don't think the unemployment rate for blind attorneys is any higher than that for attorneys with severe physical disabilities. Someone posted about the costs of trying to practice within SGA. This really is not difficult. Most of the costs listed would be work expenses. The individual would simply need to incorporate to have most of those costs covered by the business entity. Carrie Ann Lucas Sent on the Now Network™ from my Sprint® BlackBerry From rumpole at roadrunner.com Tue Nov 23 19:40:51 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:40:51 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> Message-ID: <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> Good point Blain. IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to U.S. graduates. I like it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over > American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one > year > of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law > firm. > A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that > one > year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like you > then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might > pay > for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to the > firm. > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired > my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a > year. > I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in > some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the > interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies > require > experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, I > am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move to > attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen > years > in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession > that > would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such > as > the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I > would > like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated > blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind > lawyer > should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, > participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these > experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for > employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring > process. > the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid > should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the legal > profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on the > creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage > blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Weisberg > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort > of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the > "lucky" > one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as > I > believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and > law > degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview > with > the Fed myself! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > James: > > I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on > target. > > I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a > nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work > during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I > now > practice for the federal government. > > I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at > private firms. > > I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience > tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers > of employment to practice in the private sector. > > Noel Nightingale > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again > now, > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who > are > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless > they > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my > calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because > my > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I > have > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers > who > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to > "astronomical." > *smile* > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree > with > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Andrews > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > >> James: >> >> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >> persons >> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >> evidence >> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >> lawyers, >> who are working. >> >> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >> right >> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >> bad >> economy penalty. >> >> Dave >> >> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >> ZERO job offers >> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >> extremely low >> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >> to discuss. >> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >> career is to not >> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >> than ever >> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >> THE WAY IT IS! >> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >> invest the >> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > ne.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 > 0ed.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 07:34:00 From joramsey at cox.net Tue Nov 23 20:01:09 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:01:09 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Practicing through apprenticeship Message-ID: <13803E4FFA034A0F87AF34E45FCEF364@noneeb869fea9a> Ross: There are some States that still allow for an apprenticeship style bar membership. For example, I believe Virginia still allows for a person to become licensed if they work under an attorney for five years. I am told a few states have some variation of this. Also, I believe it is Wisconsin that does not require a bar exam at all for Wisconsin law grads. Take care, John From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 23 22:59:03 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:59:03 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov><1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server><0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945><200401cb8b2d$696d48b0$6601a8c0@server><46B8A49699D647F8A584BD78BE837C90@GPD945><9F0CAA95B8804057982DA64DE529CBAE@noneeb869fea9a> <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E788@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Message-ID: <2f6401cb8b62$06ab8130$6601a8c0@server> Hi Susan, I agree that this is a good idea for the reasons you stated, particularly if one has chosen not to attend a top 10 or 20 law school. The trick for all law students is getting a summer internship during law school so as to secure a permanent job offer. As a result, it is important to be at a law school where the firms in your chosen geographic area come to do interviews. Did you go to law school in Arizona? All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Kelly" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > At least when I went, another suggestion was to pick a school (or > schools) in the general geographic area one thought he or she might want > to set up practice - for example, given the differences in family law > and water law provisions here in Arizona, it was though to be wiser to > attend a school in this area of the country so that a person could get > more exposure to those unique laws. Just a thought, though. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of John Ramsey > Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 10:02 AM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > One of the most looked at factors is the school's bar passage rate for > first > time takers. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:56 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > when looking at a high ranked law school what are some things that > you're > looking at? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:42 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Hello Blain, > Where did you get the information that the parents of Harvard Law School > students are paying for their educations any more than is true at all > other > law schools? I sincerely doubt it. When I looked recently, I was > astonished to see that the highest ranked law schools and those toward > the > bottom of the rankings cost very close to the same. The rankings I was > referring to would be the U.S. News rankings. My claim is that it is > much > easier to get a job as a lawyer when you go to a highly ranked law > school, > and I think this can be confirmed. This concern is more true today, > then > when I attended law school 20 years ago given the current high attorney > unemployment. The advice I was given when I was applying to law school > was > to go to the one which admitted me that had the highest ranking. That > worked out well for me and this is the same advice I would give today to > my > spouse, children and friends. My view is that law school is an > investment > like any other, and it seems sensible to me to invest in the entity > which is > most likely to give me the highest return on my investment, even though > we > can never know for sure about any investment in advance. Finally, I was > not > intending to insult any law schools in Texas by only citing the > University > of Texas at Austin. It has had a sterling reputation for at least the > last > 75 years, and when I last looked at the rankings I think it was in the > top > 10, and Sarah mentioned that she wanted to stay in Texas and that is the > only reason I brought it up. I know there are many views on the topic > of > law school rankings, and I would enjoy hearing your thoughts. I look > forward to hearing from you. > Warmest regards, > Dennis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:48 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > >> when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going > by? >> Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have >> their >> parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that > doesn't >> have >> the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and > the >> law >> school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dennis Clark" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information >> >> >> Hello Sarah, >> My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law >> school >> in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to > me. >> It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I >> applied >> I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly >> admitted >> and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back > I >> can >> say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely >> unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of > the >> top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get > in to >> as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will > just >> need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. > My >> advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must >> apply. >> Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are > the >> best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have > done >> this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications > and >> you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package > that >> best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact > me >> off >> list if I can help. >> All the best, >> Dennis >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frye, Daniel" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information >> >> >> Sarah: >> >> I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who >> have >> more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school > in >> 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are > different >> now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around > equitable >> testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I > can >> tell >> you these things: >> >> Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary > number. >> I >> don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications > to, so >> long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you >> potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. > Finally, >> only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're >> prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I > guess >> the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a > factor. >> If >> you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to >> incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply > elsewhere. >> Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but > better >> ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about > whether >> law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw > based >> on >> your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives > in >> general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but >> potentially >> rewarding journey. >> >> Be well. >> >> >> Daniel B. Frye, J.D. >> Management and Program Specialist >> Randolph-Sheppard Programs >> U.S. Department of Education >> Office of Special Education >> and Rehabilitative Services >> Rehabilitation Services Administration >> 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 >> Washington, DC 20202-2800 >> (202) 245-7308 office >> (202) 245-7591 fax >> (410) 241-7006 mobile >> daniel.frye at ed.gov >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On >> Behalf Of Sarah >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information >> >> Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next > June. I >> am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's > available >> in >> an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking > the >> test? >> My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this >> information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees >> waiver >> for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I > will >> not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. > Thank >> you. >> Sarah >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40 > ed.g > ov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > 0sbc > global.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > 0sbc > global.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sa > sktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox > .net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 23 23:04:12 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:04:12 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: Message-ID: <2f6a01cb8b62$bf46dfa0$6601a8c0@server> Hello Daniel, I totally agree. If one can get through law school, or any other degree program, without owing loans, this will put the student way ahead of those who have those monthly payments looming. Best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many lawyers get > into is having to pay back loans. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Daniel K. Beitz > Wienner & Gould, P.C. > 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 > Rochester, MI 48307 > Phone: (248) 841-9405 > Fax: (248) 652-2729 > dbeitz at wiennergould.com > This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email > messages > attached > to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If > you are > not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering > this > email > to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > copying, > or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or > attached to > this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication > in > error, > please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by > telephoning > us at (248) 841-9400. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available > in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees > waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank > you. > > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo > uld.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 23 23:07:02 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:07:02 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <5474A8DCA2744DA48C0BB7EB89AEF78E@GPD945> <70E7CE46C3BF4D23990774A39B3EF2FD@Rufus> Message-ID: <2f7201cb8b63$24665320$6601a8c0@server> Hi Joe, I too was stunned when I saw the $10,000 tuition. When I started law school in 1988, the tuition was $22,500 and it went up substantially each year. Best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > Ten thousand a year for law school in Canada? Wow, my program was > charging > a little over three times that had I gone. If I change my tune about law > school, I'm headed north! LOL > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:26 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > yeah and when the average is $10000 per year equaling $30000 > for the three > year law degree plus your four year undergraduate program that is about > $2000 per year, Equaling $8000 after four years so in total after a law > degree and a undergraduate degree you're looking at $39000. > > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel K. Beitz" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:14 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many > lawyers get > into is having to pay back loans. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Daniel K. Beitz > Wienner & Gould, P.C. > 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 > Rochester, MI 48307 > Phone: (248) 841-9405 > Fax: (248) 652-2729 > dbeitz at wiennergould.com > This email transmission and any documents, files or previous > email messages > attached > to it may contain confidential information that is legally > privileged. If > you are > not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for > delivering this > email > to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > copying, > or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or > attached to > this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this > communication in > error, > please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this > email or by > telephoning > us at (248) 841-9400. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's > next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's > available in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition > and fees waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas > so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off > list. Thank you. > > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz > %40wiennergo > uld.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.de > utscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz > co%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From devinenora at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 23:08:37 2010 From: devinenora at gmail.com (Nora Devine) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:08:37 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try California too!! California Dept. of Rehabilitation also has an education program for residents with disabilities that can usually help pay tuition. I don't know what it takes to qualify as a resident (I imagine 6 months or so), but once you do, they can usually pay tuition at the rate of a state-run law school. These days that covers most private schools' tuition too! There are also some financial requirements, but I'm not sure what they would be for your case. Here's their website http://www.rehab.cahwnet.gov/ - Nora -- Best Regards, Nora Devine Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 University of San Francisco School of Law Tel: 510-508-4209 devinenora at gmail.com in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? >    My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. >    Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/devinenora%40gmail.com > -- Best Regards, Nora Devine Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 University of San Francisco School of Law Tel: 510-508-4209 devinenora at gmail.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 24 01:23:48 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:23:48 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? In-Reply-To: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> Message-ID: <71A6097E1A464C4BA6248EBD0A31FDF5@spike> the process of publishing notice for an LLC or any other type of corporation depends on your state laws as corporations and LLCs are registered in the state where they are doing business or where their directors/partners choose to register them. For that reason the specific procedures would not be covered in Federal publications. In establishing a business it is usually advisable to consult with an attorney or business consultant prior to proceeding so your options can be considered thoroughly and you don't make costly mistakes. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 2:55 PM Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? > Hi all: > Just wondering, is it true that if you're going to form an LLC you require > a publication to be made in 2 newspapers? > That's what I heard, but don't know if its true because it hasn't been > mentioned in any of the government resources I look at. > > Anyone have any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Wed Nov 24 01:48:34 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:48:34 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> Message-ID: <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> That is because Canada is a socialist nation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Good point Blain. > IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to > U.S. graduates. > I like it. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >> year >> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >> firm. >> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >> one >> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like >> you >> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >> pay >> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to the >> firm. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired >> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >> year. >> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >> require >> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, >> I >> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move >> to >> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >> years >> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >> that >> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >> as >> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >> would >> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >> lawyer >> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >> process. >> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the >> legal >> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on >> the >> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: James Weisberg >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >> effort >> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >> "lucky" >> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >> as >> I >> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >> law >> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >> with >> the Fed myself! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> James: >> >> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >> target. >> >> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >> now >> practice for the federal government. >> >> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >> private firms. >> >> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >> offers >> of employment to practice in the private sector. >> >> Noel Nightingale >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >> now, >> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >> employed >> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >> are >> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >> they >> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >> my >> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >> have >> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >> blind >> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >> who >> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >> "astronomical." >> *smile* >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >> with >> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: David Andrews >> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >>> James: >>> >>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> persons >>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> evidence >>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> lawyers, >>> who are working. >>> >>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> right >>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> bad >>> economy penalty. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> ZERO job offers >>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> extremely low >>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> to discuss. >>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> career is to not >>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> than ever >>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> THE WAY IT IS! >>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> invest the >>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >> ne.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >> 0ed.gov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 > 07:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 14:34:00 From jorgeapaez at mac.com Wed Nov 24 01:51:43 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:51:43 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> Message-ID: <55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com> Out rages! Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? Unless of course its some sort of internship. On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > That is because Canada is a socialist nation. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Good point Blain. >> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >> U.S. graduates. >> I like it. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>> year >>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>> firm. >>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >>> one >>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like you >>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>> pay >>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to the >>> firm. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired >>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>> year. >>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>> require >>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, I >>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move to >>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>> years >>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>> that >>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >>> as >>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>> would >>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>> lawyer >>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>> process. >>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the legal >>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on the >>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>> persons >>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>> evidence >>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>> lawyers, >>>> who are working. >>>> >>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>> right >>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>> bad >>>> economy penalty. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>> ZERO job offers >>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>> extremely low >>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>> to discuss. >>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>> career is to not >>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>> than ever >>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>> invest the >>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 14:34:00 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 24 02:19:28 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 18:19:28 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945><1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> Message-ID: <301401cb8b7e$06660300$6601a8c0@server> Steve If Canada is a socialist nation maybe we should consider going in that direction. They have some good things going on there. Israel is also a socialist nation, and there are some good things there too. The more I write the more I realize that socialism is the way to go. Let's give it a try. Can it possibly be a worse economic system than the one we have. Granted we have semi-socialism already, in that when businesses succeed, they get to keep all their money because they create jobs (in China). When they fail, we the tax payers get to pick up their losses. I can't deny that rescuing multimillionaires does give me a warm fuzzy feeling, but I am willing to give up this altruistic defect in my personality if it will help the country. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > That is because Canada is a socialist nation. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Good point Blain. >> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >> U.S. graduates. >> I like it. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>> year >>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>> firm. >>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >>> one >>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like >>> you >>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>> pay >>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to >>> the >>> firm. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and >>> acquired >>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>> year. >>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>> require >>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, >>> I >>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move >>> to >>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>> years >>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>> that >>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >>> as >>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>> would >>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>> lawyer >>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>> process. >>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the >>> legal >>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on >>> the >>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>> persons >>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>> evidence >>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>> lawyers, >>>> who are working. >>>> >>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>> right >>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>> bad >>>> economy penalty. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>> ZERO job offers >>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>> extremely low >>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>> to discuss. >>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>> career is to not >>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>> than ever >>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>> invest the >>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 14:34:00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Wed Nov 24 03:04:04 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 21:04:04 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> <301401cb8b7e$06660300$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: the only problem econimicly is when American businesses don't do that well Canadian businesses pay as well. Because we share everything, or almost everything, the econimy effects us - our dollar is a little lower then the American but if we were higher that means that American people aren't making that much money therefore not coming and spending it in Canadian retail. Socialism isn't that bad of a thing-our health care we still get to pick what doctors we see, what hospital we choose to go to if need be, ETC. Not everything is "free" so we still pay for things. As a person who pays taxes, 20% toward health care and school districts, we get to decide what we want and when the federal government steps in Canadian people get a little upset if it isn't what we want. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Steve If Canada is a socialist nation maybe we should consider going in that direction. They have some good things going on there. Israel is also a socialist nation, and there are some good things there too. The more I write the more I realize that socialism is the way to go. Let's give it a try. Can it possibly be a worse economic system than the one we have. Granted we have semi-socialism already, in that when businesses succeed, they get to keep all their money because they create jobs (in China). When they fail, we the tax payers get to pick up their losses. I can't deny that rescuing multimillionaires does give me a warm fuzzy feeling, but I am willing to give up this altruistic defect in my personality if it will help the country. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > That is because Canada is a socialist nation. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Good point Blain. >> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >> U.S. graduates. >> I like it. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>> year >>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>> firm. >>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >>> one >>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like >>> you >>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>> pay >>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to >>> the >>> firm. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and >>> acquired >>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>> year. >>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>> require >>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, >>> I >>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move >>> to >>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>> years >>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>> that >>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >>> as >>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>> would >>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>> lawyer >>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>> process. >>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the >>> legal >>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on >>> the >>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>> persons >>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>> evidence >>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>> lawyers, >>>> who are working. >>>> >>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>> right >>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>> bad >>>> economy penalty. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>> ZERO job offers >>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>> extremely low >>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>> to discuss. >>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>> career is to not >>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>> than ever >>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>> invest the >>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 14:34:00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Wed Nov 24 03:26:39 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 21:26:39 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> <55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com> Message-ID: <1327D06BB7E944038AAE13C9604C4027@GPD945> Well a lot of Lawyers that have past the bar say that they got the most experience from when they did their year of artickling. You can be book smart but until you put that into practickle knolidge it's hard to figure out. Here in Saskatchewan when people do their final year of school they start looking for firms to take them to gain the experience needed to be a successful lawyer. you get to be the gofer (go for this go for that). Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Out rages! Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? Unless of course its some sort of internship. On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > That is because Canada is a socialist nation. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Good point Blain. >> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >> U.S. graduates. >> I like it. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>> year >>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>> firm. >>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >>> one >>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like >>> you >>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>> pay >>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to >>> the >>> firm. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired >>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>> year. >>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>> require >>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, >>> I >>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move >>> to >>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>> years >>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>> that >>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >>> as >>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>> would >>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>> lawyer >>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>> process. >>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the >>> legal >>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on >>> the >>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>> persons >>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>> evidence >>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>> lawyers, >>>> who are working. >>>> >>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>> right >>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>> bad >>>> economy penalty. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>> ZERO job offers >>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>> extremely low >>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>> to discuss. >>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>> career is to not >>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>> than ever >>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>> invest the >>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 > 14:34:00 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From rumpole at roadrunner.com Wed Nov 24 14:17:08 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 09:17:08 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945><1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901><7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC><55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com> <1327D06BB7E944038AAE13C9604C4027@GPD945> Message-ID: <1F5D853D36ED43B48939E7A85C32181F@none8a46117901> Socialism? On an NFB sponsored List? You guys realize that, once the Democrats and Republicans finish perging their ranks of descenters to the recent public vote, they will take a dim view of this discussion!!! I hereby declare myself to be a registered Cynic. "Cynic" N. "A blaggard who insists on seeing things as they really are instead of how they ought to be. Hence the custom among the ancient Cythians of plucking out the eyes of a cynic to improve their vision. A. Bierce "The Devil's Dictionary" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:26 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Well a lot of Lawyers that have past the bar say that they got the most > experience from when they did their year of artickling. You can be book > smart but until you put that into practickle knolidge it's hard to figure > out. Here in Saskatchewan when people do their final year of school they > start looking for firms to take them to gain the experience needed to be a > successful lawyer. you get to be the gofer (go for this go for that). > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:51 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > Out rages! > Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? > Unless of course its some sort of internship. > > > On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> That is because Canada is a socialist nation. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Good point Blain. >>> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >>> U.S. graduates. >>> I like it. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" >>> >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>>> year >>>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>>> firm. >>>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that >>>> that >>>> one >>>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like >>>> you >>>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>>> pay >>>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to >>>> the >>>> firm. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and >>>> acquired >>>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>>> year. >>>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment >>>> in >>>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>>> require >>>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other >>>> obligations, >>>> I >>>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move >>>> to >>>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>>> years >>>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>>> that >>>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges >>>> such >>>> as >>>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>>> would >>>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly >>>> graduated >>>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>>> lawyer >>>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>>> process. >>>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal >>>> aid >>>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the >>>> legal >>>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on >>>> the >>>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>> effort >>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>> "lucky" >>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>>> as >>>> I >>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>>> law >>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>> with >>>> the Fed myself! >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>> target. >>>> >>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>> I >>>> now >>>> practice for the federal government. >>>> >>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>>> at >>>> private firms. >>>> >>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>> offers >>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>> >>>> Noel Nightingale >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>> now, >>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>> employed >>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>> who >>>> are >>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>>> they >>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>>> my >>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>> because >>>> my >>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>>> have >>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>> blind >>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>> lawyers >>>> who >>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>> "astronomical." >>>> *smile* >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>> with >>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> persons >>>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> evidence >>>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> lawyers, >>>>> who are working. >>>>> >>>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> right >>>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> bad >>>>> economy penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> ZERO job offers >>>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> extremely low >>>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> to discuss. >>>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> career is to not >>>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> than ever >>>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> invest the >>>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>> ne.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>> 0ed.gov >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >>> 07:34:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 >> 02:35:00 >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >> 14:34:00 >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 07:34:00 From rumpole at roadrunner.com Wed Nov 24 14:19:22 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 09:19:22 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind Attorney Message-ID: <607397D08AA84B9397B570219CF9C957@none8a46117901> Job posting for the Pennsylvainia area: * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA 11-WDPA-AUSA-01 Application Deadline is Friday, December 23, 2010. [ http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/11-wdpa-ausa-01.htm ] _______________________________________ Ross A. Doerr Esquire Admitted to Practice in Maine and New Hampshire F. Ct. Admission: ME. N.H. From withat at msn.com Wed Nov 24 14:47:20 2010 From: withat at msn.com (Johnston) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 06:47:20 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities References: Message-ID: Hi Nora, Lewis & Clark Law School in Portland is as accommodating as anyone could hope. I don't think it's technically called priority registration, but they will make sure you are put in the classes you need. It is a small enough school that they deal with students with specific needs on an individual basis. They will also reserve a spot in the classroom that is most accommodating of your eyesight (front row, whatever), and their disability resource center is absolutely fantastic at timely converting texts into alternative format. They will even pay for a fellow student to (anonymously) take and provide you class notes. Extra time on exams is not an issue at all. I couldn't give them a higher recommendation. Good luck! Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nora Devine" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 6:31 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities > Hi! > > Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities > priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed > to register for classes before all other students. > > My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision > and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe > eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority > registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a > course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also > often left with very little time to convert course materials and text > books. > > Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? > I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would > like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. > > Thanks so much for you help!! > - Nora > > -- > Best Regards, > > Nora Devine > Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 > University of San Francisco School of Law > Tel: 510-508-4209 > devinenora at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/withat%40msn.com > From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Wed Nov 24 14:57:44 2010 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 07:57:44 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: <2f6401cb8b62$06ab8130$6601a8c0@server> References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov><1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server><0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945><200401cb8b2d$696d48b0$6601a8c0@server><46B8A49699D647F8A584BD78BE837C90@GPD945><9F0CAA95B8804057982DA64DE529CBAE@noneeb869fea9a> <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E788@EVS02.central.pima.gov> <2f6401cb8b62$06ab8130$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E792@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Yes, I did attend UA. Seems like ages, giggle! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 3:59 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hi Susan, I agree that this is a good idea for the reasons you stated, particularly if one has chosen not to attend a top 10 or 20 law school. The trick for all law students is getting a summer internship during law school so as to secure a permanent job offer. As a result, it is important to be at a law school where the firms in your chosen geographic area come to do interviews. Did you go to law school in Arizona? All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Kelly" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > At least when I went, another suggestion was to pick a school (or > schools) in the general geographic area one thought he or she might want > to set up practice - for example, given the differences in family law > and water law provisions here in Arizona, it was though to be wiser to > attend a school in this area of the country so that a person could get > more exposure to those unique laws. Just a thought, though. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of John Ramsey > Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 10:02 AM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > One of the most looked at factors is the school's bar passage rate for > first > time takers. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:56 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > when looking at a high ranked law school what are some things that > you're > looking at? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:42 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Hello Blain, > Where did you get the information that the parents of Harvard Law School > students are paying for their educations any more than is true at all > other > law schools? I sincerely doubt it. When I looked recently, I was > astonished to see that the highest ranked law schools and those toward > the > bottom of the rankings cost very close to the same. The rankings I was > referring to would be the U.S. News rankings. My claim is that it is > much > easier to get a job as a lawyer when you go to a highly ranked law > school, > and I think this can be confirmed. This concern is more true today, > then > when I attended law school 20 years ago given the current high attorney > unemployment. The advice I was given when I was applying to law school > was > to go to the one which admitted me that had the highest ranking. That > worked out well for me and this is the same advice I would give today to > my > spouse, children and friends. My view is that law school is an > investment > like any other, and it seems sensible to me to invest in the entity > which is > most likely to give me the highest return on my investment, even though > we > can never know for sure about any investment in advance. Finally, I was > not > intending to insult any law schools in Texas by only citing the > University > of Texas at Austin. It has had a sterling reputation for at least the > last > 75 years, and when I last looked at the rankings I think it was in the > top > 10, and Sarah mentioned that she wanted to stay in Texas and that is the > only reason I brought it up. I know there are many views on the topic > of > law school rankings, and I would enjoy hearing your thoughts. I look > forward to hearing from you. > Warmest regards, > Dennis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:48 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > >> when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going > by? >> Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have >> their >> parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that > doesn't >> have >> the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and > the >> law >> school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dennis Clark" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information >> >> >> Hello Sarah, >> My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law >> school >> in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to > me. >> It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I >> applied >> I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly >> admitted >> and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back > I >> can >> say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely >> unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of > the >> top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get > in to >> as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will > just >> need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. > My >> advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must >> apply. >> Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are > the >> best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have > done >> this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications > and >> you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package > that >> best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact > me >> off >> list if I can help. >> All the best, >> Dennis >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frye, Daniel" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information >> >> >> Sarah: >> >> I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who >> have >> more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school > in >> 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are > different >> now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around > equitable >> testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I > can >> tell >> you these things: >> >> Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary > number. >> I >> don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications > to, so >> long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you >> potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. > Finally, >> only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're >> prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I > guess >> the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a > factor. >> If >> you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to >> incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply > elsewhere. >> Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but > better >> ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about > whether >> law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw > based >> on >> your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives > in >> general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but >> potentially >> rewarding journey. >> >> Be well. >> >> >> Daniel B. Frye, J.D. >> Management and Program Specialist >> Randolph-Sheppard Programs >> U.S. Department of Education >> Office of Special Education >> and Rehabilitative Services >> Rehabilitation Services Administration >> 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 >> Washington, DC 20202-2800 >> (202) 245-7308 office >> (202) 245-7591 fax >> (410) 241-7006 mobile >> daniel.frye at ed.gov >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On >> Behalf Of Sarah >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information >> >> Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next > June. I >> am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's > available >> in >> an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking > the >> test? >> My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this >> information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees >> waiver >> for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I > will >> not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. > Thank >> you. >> Sarah >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40 > ed.g > ov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > 0sbc > global.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > 0sbc > global.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sa > sktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox > .net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 0sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Wed Nov 24 15:05:10 2010 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 08:05:10 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> <55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com> Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E794@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Actually...my great-great grandfather "read" for the bar - in fact, he only had a high school diploma, but became an attorney by internship and very educated by his love of reading. Going through modern law school, was always jealous that it had at least once been by practice and testing alone! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jorge Paez Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 6:52 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Out rages! Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? Unless of course its some sort of internship. On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > That is because Canada is a socialist nation. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Good point Blain. >> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >> U.S. graduates. >> I like it. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>> year >>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>> firm. >>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >>> one >>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like you >>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>> pay >>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to the >>> firm. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired >>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>> year. >>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>> require >>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, I >>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move to >>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>> years >>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>> that >>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >>> as >>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>> would >>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>> lawyer >>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>> process. >>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the legal >>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on the >>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>> persons >>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>> evidence >>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>> lawyers, >>>> who are working. >>>> >>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>> right >>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>> bad >>>> economy penalty. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>> ZERO job offers >>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>> extremely low >>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>> to discuss. >>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>> career is to not >>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>> than ever >>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>> invest the >>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40opt onli >>> ne.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightinga le%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yaho o.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% 40sasktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40road runner.com >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley% 40insightbb.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 14:34:00 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40m ac.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov From rumpole at roadrunner.com Wed Nov 24 15:51:27 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:51:27 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945><1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901><7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC><55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com> <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E794@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Message-ID: <71F41AD82B4B4422B02742DDD32D66D3@none8a46117901> The last I knew, Vermont and North Carolina were the only two states who still permitted that - and it was done through apprenticeship to an admitted attorney. But that information is about 10 years old, so it may not apply any longer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Kelly" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Actually...my great-great grandfather "read" for the bar - in fact, he > only had a high school diploma, but became an attorney by internship and > very educated by his love of reading. Going through modern law school, > was always jealous that it had at least once been by practice and > testing alone! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 6:52 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Out rages! > Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? > Unless of course its some sort of internship. > > > On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> That is because Canada is a socialist nation. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" > >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Good point Blain. >>> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself > to >>> U.S. graduates. >>> I like it. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do > one >>>> year >>>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a > Law >>>> firm. >>>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that > that >>>> one >>>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they > like you >>>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms > might >>>> pay >>>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit > to the >>>> firm. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and > acquired >>>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than > a >>>> year. >>>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for > employment in >>>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>>> require >>>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other > obligations, I >>>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to > move to >>>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for > fourteen >>>> years >>>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best > profession >>>> that >>>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges > such >>>> as >>>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but > I >>>> would >>>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly > graduated >>>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>>> lawyer >>>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. > these >>>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>>> process. >>>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal > aid >>>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the > legal >>>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending > on the >>>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to > encourage >>>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the > effort >>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>> "lucky" >>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public > sector as >>>> I >>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems > and >>>> law >>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job > interview >>>> with >>>> the Fed myself! >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is > on >>>> target. >>>> >>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my > work >>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five > years. I >>>> now >>>> practice for the federal government. >>>> >>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got > jobs at >>>> private firms. >>>> >>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own > experience >>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive > offers >>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>> >>>> Noel Nightingale >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below > again >>>> now, >>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been > employed >>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those > who >>>> are >>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep > unless >>>> they >>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers > in my >>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established > because >>>> my >>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know > as I >>>> have >>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for > the >>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on > blind >>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind > lawyers >>>> who >>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>> "astronomical." >>>> *smile* >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I > agree >>>> with >>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> persons >>>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> evidence >>>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> lawyers, >>>>> who are working. >>>>> >>>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> right >>>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> bad >>>>> economy penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> ZERO job offers >>>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> extremely low >>>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> to discuss. >>>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> career is to not >>>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance > statistically, >>>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> than ever >>>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> invest the >>>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an > exception. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40opt > onli >>>> ne.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightinga > le%4 >>>> 0ed.gov >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. > rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yaho > o.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sasktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40road > runner.com >>> >>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: > 11/23/10 >>> 07:34:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley% > 40insightbb.com >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: > 11/21/10 02:35:00 >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: > 11/23/10 14:34:00 >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40m > ac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 07:34:00 From stiehm.law at juno.com Wed Nov 24 19:08:17 2010 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H Stiehm) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 14:08:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Practicing through apprenticeship Message-ID: <20101124.110826.990.74788@mailpop02.vgs.untd.com> Virginia still has the so called "Lincoln Law" which permits you to "read" for the law in the office of a Virginia bared lawyer. I'm not sure how long the required timeframe is or what any other requirements may be. You still have to take and pass the Virginia Bar Examination to be admitted in that fashion. The year I was admitted there was one individual who got admitted that way. He was specially introduced and in the introduction it was noted that he was the first one in several years to have gone through that procedure. I am not sure how common it is. As far as Wisconsin is concerned, at when I practiced there, if you had attended either the University of Wisconsin law school or the Marquette University law school and had taken and passed certain designated courses that were prescribed by the Board of Law Examiners you were admitted on graduation. This was of course great for the UW and Marquette law graduates. Even for those of us who had not gone to UW or Marquette it was a benefit. When I took the Wisconsin bar there were only 98 people taking it, as opposed to an excess of 500 in Minnesota a few years earlier. Wisconsin's test was a three-day test, we started it on a Monday finished on a Wednesday, on Friday they had the results which you call in and get and we were sworn in the following Monday, one week from the day we started the exam. Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, Virginia 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) Email address: stiehm.law at verizon.net On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:01:09 -0500 "John Ramsey" writes: > Ross: > There are some States that still allow for an apprenticeship style > bar > membership. For example, I believe Virginia still allows for a > person to > become licensed if they work under an attorney for five years. I am > told a > few states have some variation of this. Also, I believe it is > Wisconsin that > does not require a bar exam at all for Wisconsin law grads. > Take care, > John > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, Virginia 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) Email address: stiehm.law at verizon.net ____________________________________________________________ $350,000 Life Insurance Coverage as low as $13.04/month. Free, No Obligation Quotes. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ced62cbac3c442b80st02vuc From jorgeapaez at mac.com Wed Nov 24 20:23:55 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 15:23:55 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <301401cb8b7e$06660300$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> <301401cb8b7e$06660300$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: Denis: With all due respect I disagree. I think our republic system is the best one there is, in theory and in its systems. We just gotta kick out the corrupted members of the parties, as well as the hard radicals and we'll do fine. On Nov 23, 2010, at 9:19 PM, Dennis Clark wrote: > Steve > If Canada is a socialist nation maybe we should consider going in that direction. They have some good things going on there. Israel is also a socialist nation, and there are some good things there too. The more I write the more I realize that socialism is the way to go. Let's give it a try. Can it possibly be a worse economic system than the one we have. Granted we have semi-socialism already, in that when businesses succeed, they get to keep all their money because they create jobs (in China). When they fail, we the tax payers get to pick up their losses. I can't deny that rescuing multimillionaires does give me a warm fuzzy feeling, but I am willing to give up this altruistic defect in my personality if it will help the country. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 5:48 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> That is because Canada is a socialist nation. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Good point Blain. >>> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >>> U.S. graduates. >>> I like it. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>>> year >>>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>>> firm. >>>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >>>> one >>>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like >>>> you >>>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>>> pay >>>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to the >>>> firm. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired >>>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>>> year. >>>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >>>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>>> require >>>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, >>>> I >>>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move >>>> to >>>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>>> years >>>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>>> that >>>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >>>> as >>>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>>> would >>>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >>>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>>> lawyer >>>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>>> process. >>>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >>>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the >>>> legal >>>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on >>>> the >>>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>> effort >>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>> "lucky" >>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>>> as >>>> I >>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>>> law >>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>> with >>>> the Fed myself! >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>> target. >>>> >>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>>> now >>>> practice for the federal government. >>>> >>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >>>> private firms. >>>> >>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>> offers >>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>> >>>> Noel Nightingale >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>> now, >>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>> employed >>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>>> are >>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>>> they >>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>>> my >>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>>> have >>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>> blind >>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>>> who >>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>> "astronomical." >>>> *smile* >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>> with >>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> persons >>>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> evidence >>>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> lawyers, >>>>> who are working. >>>>> >>>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> right >>>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> bad >>>>> economy penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> ZERO job offers >>>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> extremely low >>>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> to discuss. >>>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> career is to not >>>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> than ever >>>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> invest the >>>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>> ne.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>> 0ed.gov >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >>> 07:34:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 >> 02:35:00 >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 14:34:00 > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From kgilbride at dralegal.org Thu Nov 25 00:50:46 2010 From: kgilbride at dralegal.org (Karla Gilbride) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 16:50:46 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945><1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901><7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC><55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E794@EVS02.central.pima.gov> <71F41AD82B4B4422B02742DDD32D66D3@none8a46117901> Message-ID: <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE36FB5@draexchange.dralegal.com> California permits people to sit for the Bar without a law school degree if they serve an apprenticeship as well. ________________________________ From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org on behalf of Ross Doerr Sent: Wed 11/24/2010 7:51 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys The last I knew, Vermont and North Carolina were the only two states who still permitted that - and it was done through apprenticeship to an admitted attorney. But that information is about 10 years old, so it may not apply any longer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Kelly" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Actually...my great-great grandfather "read" for the bar - in fact, he > only had a high school diploma, but became an attorney by internship and > very educated by his love of reading. Going through modern law school, > was always jealous that it had at least once been by practice and > testing alone! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 6:52 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Out rages! > Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? > Unless of course its some sort of internship. > > > On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> That is because Canada is a socialist nation. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" > >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Good point Blain. >>> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself > to >>> U.S. graduates. >>> I like it. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do > one >>>> year >>>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a > Law >>>> firm. >>>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that > that >>>> one >>>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they > like you >>>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms > might >>>> pay >>>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit > to the >>>> firm. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and > acquired >>>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than > a >>>> year. >>>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for > employment in >>>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>>> require >>>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other > obligations, I >>>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to > move to >>>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for > fourteen >>>> years >>>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best > profession >>>> that >>>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges > such >>>> as >>>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but > I >>>> would >>>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly > graduated >>>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>>> lawyer >>>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. > these >>>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>>> process. >>>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal > aid >>>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the > legal >>>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending > on the >>>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to > encourage >>>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the > effort >>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>> "lucky" >>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public > sector as >>>> I >>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems > and >>>> law >>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job > interview >>>> with >>>> the Fed myself! >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is > on >>>> target. >>>> >>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my > work >>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five > years. I >>>> now >>>> practice for the federal government. >>>> >>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got > jobs at >>>> private firms. >>>> >>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own > experience >>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive > offers >>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>> >>>> Noel Nightingale >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below > again >>>> now, >>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been > employed >>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those > who >>>> are >>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep > unless >>>> they >>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers > in my >>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established > because >>>> my >>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know > as I >>>> have >>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for > the >>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on > blind >>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind > lawyers >>>> who >>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>> "astronomical." >>>> *smile* >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I > agree >>>> with >>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> persons >>>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> evidence >>>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> lawyers, >>>>> who are working. >>>>> >>>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> right >>>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> bad >>>>> economy penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> ZERO job offers >>>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> extremely low >>>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> to discuss. >>>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> career is to not >>>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance > statistically, >>>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> than ever >>>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> invest the >>>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an > exception. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40opt > onli >>>> ne.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightinga > le%4 >>>> 0ed.gov >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. > rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yaho > o.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sasktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40road > runner.com >>> >>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: > 11/23/10 >>> 07:34:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley% > 40insightbb.com >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: > 11/21/10 02:35:00 >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: > 11/23/10 14:34:00 >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40m > ac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 07:34:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 22011 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 25 02:37:06 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 18:37:06 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945><1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901><7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC><55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E794@EVS02.central.pima.gov><71F41AD82B4B4422B02742DDD32D66D3@none8a46117901> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE36FB5@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: <00ac01cb8c49$a7136b00$6601a8c0@server> Hello Carla, I knew that this used to be true, but don't they have to also take courses from the attorney they work for, and take the "baby Bar" along the way? I once knew someone about ten years ago who was doing this, but she was never able to pass the baby bar. She was very bright, so I began wondering if anyone ever actually passed the baby bar. Best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karla Gilbride" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 4:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys California permits people to sit for the Bar without a law school degree if they serve an apprenticeship as well. ________________________________ From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org on behalf of Ross Doerr Sent: Wed 11/24/2010 7:51 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys The last I knew, Vermont and North Carolina were the only two states who still permitted that - and it was done through apprenticeship to an admitted attorney. But that information is about 10 years old, so it may not apply any longer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Kelly" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Actually...my great-great grandfather "read" for the bar - in fact, he > only had a high school diploma, but became an attorney by internship and > very educated by his love of reading. Going through modern law school, > was always jealous that it had at least once been by practice and > testing alone! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 6:52 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Out rages! > Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? > Unless of course its some sort of internship. > > > On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> That is because Canada is a socialist nation. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" > >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Good point Blain. >>> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself > to >>> U.S. graduates. >>> I like it. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do > one >>>> year >>>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a > Law >>>> firm. >>>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that > that >>>> one >>>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they > like you >>>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms > might >>>> pay >>>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit > to the >>>> firm. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and > acquired >>>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than > a >>>> year. >>>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for > employment in >>>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>>> require >>>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other > obligations, I >>>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to > move to >>>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for > fourteen >>>> years >>>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best > profession >>>> that >>>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges > such >>>> as >>>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but > I >>>> would >>>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly > graduated >>>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>>> lawyer >>>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. > these >>>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>>> process. >>>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal > aid >>>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the > legal >>>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending > on the >>>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to > encourage >>>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the > effort >>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>> "lucky" >>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public > sector as >>>> I >>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems > and >>>> law >>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job > interview >>>> with >>>> the Fed myself! >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is > on >>>> target. >>>> >>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my > work >>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five > years. I >>>> now >>>> practice for the federal government. >>>> >>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got > jobs at >>>> private firms. >>>> >>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own > experience >>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive > offers >>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>> >>>> Noel Nightingale >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below > again >>>> now, >>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been > employed >>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those > who >>>> are >>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep > unless >>>> they >>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers > in my >>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established > because >>>> my >>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know > as I >>>> have >>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for > the >>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on > blind >>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind > lawyers >>>> who >>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>> "astronomical." >>>> *smile* >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I > agree >>>> with >>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> persons >>>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> evidence >>>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> lawyers, >>>>> who are working. >>>>> >>>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> right >>>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> bad >>>>> economy penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> ZERO job offers >>>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> extremely low >>>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> to discuss. >>>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> career is to not >>>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance > statistically, >>>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> than ever >>>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> invest the >>>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an > exception. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40opt > onli >>>> ne.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightinga > le%4 >>>> 0ed.gov >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. > rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yaho > o.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sasktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40road > runner.com >>> >>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: > 11/23/10 >>> 07:34:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley% > 40insightbb.com >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: > 11/21/10 02:35:00 >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: > 11/23/10 14:34:00 >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40m > ac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 07:34:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > From jorgeapaez at mac.com Thu Nov 25 15:51:40 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 10:51:40 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? In-Reply-To: <71A6097E1A464C4BA6248EBD0A31FDF5@spike> References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> <71A6097E1A464C4BA6248EBD0A31FDF5@spike> Message-ID: Chuck: Do you work in this field? If so, are you certified to practice in New York state. If you are, please email me offline and we can talk, because I want to be completely sure of what I'm doing before I start. Thanks, Jorge On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:23 PM, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > the process of publishing notice for an LLC or any other type of corporation depends on your state laws as corporations and LLCs are registered in the state where they are doing business or where their directors/partners choose to register them. For that reason the specific procedures would not be covered in Federal publications. In establishing a business it is usually advisable to consult with an attorney or business consultant prior to proceeding so your options can be considered thoroughly and you don't make costly mistakes. > Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal > 1237 P Street > Fresno ca 93721 > 559-266-9237 > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 2:55 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? > > >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, is it true that if you're going to form an LLC you require a publication to be made in 2 newspapers? >> That's what I heard, but don't know if its true because it hasn't been mentioned in any of the government resources I look at. >> >> Anyone have any ideas? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jorge >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From rumpole at roadrunner.com Fri Nov 26 23:15:51 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 18:15:51 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] U.S. Atty office job posting Message-ID: * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR UNITE STATES TRUSTEES ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF CRIMINAL ENFORCEMENT 10-49-14001 The application package must be received by the closing date of the announcement, which is 12/20/2010. [ http://justice.gov/oarm/jobs/10-49-14001creuvacannnov10.htm ] ______________________________________________________________________ Ross A. Doerr Esquire Admitted to Practice in Maine and New Hampshire F. Ct. Admission: ME. N.H. From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 27 20:06:08 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:06:08 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E768@EVS02.central.pima.gov> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E768@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Message-ID: Over the years I have known several blind attorneys that were gainfully employed. I met one in Michigan who at the time that I was in college in the early 70's was a prosecuting attorney in Detroit and he subsequently was elected as a judge. I was quite impressed that he had the Michigan Criminal code statutes in Braille at the time. I also knew another attorney their that had worked for a legal aid program and subsequently went in to private practice specializing in landlord tenant law and was quite successful. As a blind paralegal I freelance and am underemployed partly by choice so as not to give up Social Security disability and Medicare benefits as this takes the pressure off and allows me to pick and choose what I work on. Realistically, there are many things that paralegals do that don't always lend themselves to people with visual difficulties. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Kelly" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > I've often wondered about this myself, as I didn't hit the statutorily > blind level until a couple of years ago. However, there is a prosecutor > in the County Attorney's Office here who has been blind since birth. > Also, one of my classmates was already statutorily blind (RP)by the time > we were in school, and a lady in the class ahead of us was totally blind > due to rheumatoid arthritis. As far as I know, both of these > individuals are also employed in the legal profession. Granted, that's > not many, but there is at least a glimmer of hope... > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2010 1:16 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at > all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with > vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful > activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. > rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 27 21:41:39 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 13:41:39 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <0f6301cb8795$512de430$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><7C8FEADCFFF24F43AC0907C20FC54FE9@Blind> <0f6301cb8795$512de430$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <0AEB47696E8B4A11B22303184920B20F@spike> This is a very good assessment of the situation. While not having completed law school I have had to create many of my opportunities and successes both as a social worker and as a paralegal. In many instances this involved taking risks that others would not have taken with employers that were just starting out businesses or agencies and working for solo practitioners currently. At times I have had to be paid on a contingency as the attorney was on personal injury cases. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W. Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Hello James, > > Clearly you are frustrated, I fully understand that, and for anyone else > to tell you that you should not be is judging you without knowing about > your personal experiences. There is no question that there is tremendous > discrimination in the legal field, because the law firms understand the > discrimination laws and are expert at circumventing them. Regardless, > this is the world in which we must function and try to succeed, and I > think there is opportunity in the discrimination we are all encountering. > One characteristic that I have noticed with successful people, is that > they more often than not have created their own opportunities, by building > on their own talents and limitations. > > When I am feeling discouraged, I try to remind myself about the employment > possibilities which faced black attorneys such as Thurgood Marshal in the > 1940's. Employment with large firms was not possible for these black > attorneys regardless of how talented or bright they might have been. None > the less, Thurgood Marshal did succeed, mostly by filing civil rights > cases for blacks and helping to build the NAACP Legal Defense Fund into a > formidable institution. My opinion is that most of the success that > blacks enjoy today is a direct result of the work done by the Legal > Defense Fund. As blind attorneys, we have that opportunity as well simply > by following Thurgood Marshal's roadmap, if we would simply pool our > talents and just do it. > > My personal opinion is that discrimination in both education and all areas > of employment has become much worse for blind people following the passage > of the ADA. The good news here, is that if there is to be any improvement > in our lives it will be as a result of blind lawyers fighting for the > civil rights of blind people. We unlike non lawyers, can force our > opponents to deal with us, because we have the power to drag them into > court, and when we succeed they will be paying our legal expenses. > > Another characteristic of successful people is that they will not take no > for an answer and they never quit no matter how difficult the road ahead > nor no matter how many doors are slammed in their faces. This kind of > inner strength is very difficult to muster and maintain, particularly when > there is no support system in place to help us get reenergized. > Unfortunately as blind people we do not support one another and as a > result we do not have such a support system to turn to. Instead when one > of our blind brethren admits that he or she is having a problem related to > blindness, they will be attacked, not supported. I am not aware of any > other minority groups which do this. > > the attack chorus always sings the same self serving song, and the lyrics > goes that the person in need of assistance is to blame and has not spent > enough of their life learning blindness skills, which in my opinion > translates into the silly notion that the blind person hasn't become > sighted enough. The aspect of this which is most amusing to me, if > amusement can be found at all, is that upon inspection, those leading the > attack and singing the loudest, have usually accomplished almost nothing > other than spending their time trying to become sighted using technology. > My thinking is that as blind people we can either choose to accept the > limitations which are inherent to blindness and become successful anyway, > or we can spend all our waking hours trying to become "independent" by > developing blindness skills in an effort to make us as close to being > sighted as is possible using technology. > > If there are other lawyers on this list who feel similarly to me, please > contact me off list. I would like to do something about our situation, by > learning from the successes of other minorities. All of us who are blind > should be clear that the problem we face as lawyers is that there is too > much legal work to do, not that there is too little work. We are > privileged to be lawyers, so let's take on the challenge. Let's find > strength and success in friendship, support, and optimistic collective > action. We are lawyers, we have power, so lets use it to help one another > and all who are blind. Let's talk and see what we can do together. > > All the best, > Dennis > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:15 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> How's "Supervising Attorney" for a Berkeley clinic, Pro Bono work in >> Southern Florida before the immigration court at Krome detention center, >> Superior Court in Cali a few months back, also pro bono (all successful >> outcomes unfortunately people do not go to blind attorneys with money if >> they can go to sighted ones!) That's not my prejudice just my >> experience. >> I've litigated for over ten years, state, federal, administrative BS >> hearings and have been VERY successful . . . but I live on 1300/month in >> disability. Open and office on that and on top of that demand a deserved >> retainer! Not realistic. How's it sound now? Like I'm not putting >> forth >> the effort??? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of John Ramsey >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:00 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I guess many of us on the list are exceptions and I certainly do not come >> from money. Are you saying that you are a top tier Berkeley Grad? If so, >> maybe you aren't putting forth the effort to practice law. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:55 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job >> offers >> despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low >> numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to >> discuss. >> My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to >> not >> waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever >> getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT >> IS! >> But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest >> the >> time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Karla Gilbride >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> James, >> >> I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind >> attorneys >> are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off >> the >> top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), >> and >> I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should >> chat >> further off-list about your specific concerns. >> >> Best, >> Karla Gilbride >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Curious: >> >> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? >> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >> would >> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision >> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Are there any attorneys out there who are: >> 1 blind or statutorily blind; >> 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful >> activity; >> and >> 3 receiving disability as a result. >> >> If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. >> >> Dan >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. >> rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr >> alegal.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From mruniverse08 at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 23:32:47 2010 From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 17:32:47 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <0AEB47696E8B4A11B22303184920B20F@spike> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><7C8FEADCFFF24F43AC0907C20FC54FE9@Blind> <0f6301cb8795$512de430$6601a8c0@server> <0AEB47696E8B4A11B22303184920B20F@spike> Message-ID: <05fe01cb8f54$91da78b0$b58f6a10$@com> Dennis, I really like the approach you took in your response. not having been blind a total of three years yet, I have repeatedly heard the mantra of "just learn more blind skills." You're so right about many of the blind working against one another or trying to make us all fit into one little cookie-cutter mold. I have never experienced that before. Luckily, my type A personality won't let me lie dormant. What do you think about utilizing organizations that already work toward civil rights advancement for people with disabilities? I work for one here in Houston and they don't really know much about blind issues because the blind here don't complain or make issues aware. Will -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 3:42 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys This is a very good assessment of the situation. While not having completed law school I have had to create many of my opportunities and successes both as a social worker and as a paralegal. In many instances this involved taking risks that others would not have taken with employers that were just starting out businesses or agencies and working for solo practitioners currently. At times I have had to be paid on a contingency as the attorney was on personal injury cases. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W. Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Hello James, > > Clearly you are frustrated, I fully understand that, and for anyone else > to tell you that you should not be is judging you without knowing about > your personal experiences. There is no question that there is tremendous > discrimination in the legal field, because the law firms understand the > discrimination laws and are expert at circumventing them. Regardless, > this is the world in which we must function and try to succeed, and I > think there is opportunity in the discrimination we are all encountering. > One characteristic that I have noticed with successful people, is that > they more often than not have created their own opportunities, by building > on their own talents and limitations. > > When I am feeling discouraged, I try to remind myself about the employment > possibilities which faced black attorneys such as Thurgood Marshal in the > 1940's. Employment with large firms was not possible for these black > attorneys regardless of how talented or bright they might have been. None > the less, Thurgood Marshal did succeed, mostly by filing civil rights > cases for blacks and helping to build the NAACP Legal Defense Fund into a > formidable institution. My opinion is that most of the success that > blacks enjoy today is a direct result of the work done by the Legal > Defense Fund. As blind attorneys, we have that opportunity as well simply > by following Thurgood Marshal's roadmap, if we would simply pool our > talents and just do it. > > My personal opinion is that discrimination in both education and all areas > of employment has become much worse for blind people following the passage > of the ADA. The good news here, is that if there is to be any improvement > in our lives it will be as a result of blind lawyers fighting for the > civil rights of blind people. We unlike non lawyers, can force our > opponents to deal with us, because we have the power to drag them into > court, and when we succeed they will be paying our legal expenses. > > Another characteristic of successful people is that they will not take no > for an answer and they never quit no matter how difficult the road ahead > nor no matter how many doors are slammed in their faces. This kind of > inner strength is very difficult to muster and maintain, particularly when > there is no support system in place to help us get reenergized. > Unfortunately as blind people we do not support one another and as a > result we do not have such a support system to turn to. Instead when one > of our blind brethren admits that he or she is having a problem related to > blindness, they will be attacked, not supported. I am not aware of any > other minority groups which do this. > > the attack chorus always sings the same self serving song, and the lyrics > goes that the person in need of assistance is to blame and has not spent > enough of their life learning blindness skills, which in my opinion > translates into the silly notion that the blind person hasn't become > sighted enough. The aspect of this which is most amusing to me, if > amusement can be found at all, is that upon inspection, those leading the > attack and singing the loudest, have usually accomplished almost nothing > other than spending their time trying to become sighted using technology. > My thinking is that as blind people we can either choose to accept the > limitations which are inherent to blindness and become successful anyway, > or we can spend all our waking hours trying to become "independent" by > developing blindness skills in an effort to make us as close to being > sighted as is possible using technology. > > If there are other lawyers on this list who feel similarly to me, please > contact me off list. I would like to do something about our situation, by > learning from the successes of other minorities. All of us who are blind > should be clear that the problem we face as lawyers is that there is too > much legal work to do, not that there is too little work. We are > privileged to be lawyers, so let's take on the challenge. Let's find > strength and success in friendship, support, and optimistic collective > action. We are lawyers, we have power, so lets use it to help one another > and all who are blind. Let's talk and see what we can do together. > > All the best, > Dennis > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:15 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> How's "Supervising Attorney" for a Berkeley clinic, Pro Bono work in >> Southern Florida before the immigration court at Krome detention center, >> Superior Court in Cali a few months back, also pro bono (all successful >> outcomes unfortunately people do not go to blind attorneys with money if >> they can go to sighted ones!) That's not my prejudice just my >> experience. >> I've litigated for over ten years, state, federal, administrative BS >> hearings and have been VERY successful . . . but I live on 1300/month in >> disability. Open and office on that and on top of that demand a deserved >> retainer! Not realistic. How's it sound now? Like I'm not putting >> forth >> the effort??? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of John Ramsey >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:00 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I guess many of us on the list are exceptions and I certainly do not come >> from money. Are you saying that you are a top tier Berkeley Grad? If so, >> maybe you aren't putting forth the effort to practice law. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:55 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job >> offers >> despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low >> numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to >> discuss. >> My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to >> not >> waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever >> getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT >> IS! >> But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest >> the >> time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Karla Gilbride >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> James, >> >> I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind >> attorneys >> are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off >> the >> top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), >> and >> I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should >> chat >> further off-list about your specific concerns. >> >> Best, >> Karla Gilbride >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Curious: >> >> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? >> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >> would >> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision >> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Are there any attorneys out there who are: >> 1 blind or statutorily blind; >> 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful >> activity; >> and >> 3 receiving disability as a result. >> >> If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. >> >> Dan >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. >> rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr >> alegal.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob al.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma il.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 29 00:49:41 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 16:49:41 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students withDisabilities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47F11A6CE1374DB8846DA711E4ACAD1B@spike> When did Michigan State establish a law school? When I used to live in Michigan the only public law schools were University of Michigan and wayne State University. I left Michigan though in the mid 1980's. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students withDisabilities >I bet Michigan State does. Try them. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Daniel K. Beitz > Wienner & Gould, P.C. > 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 > Rochester, MI 48307 > Phone: (248) 841-9405 > Fax: (248) 652-2729 > dbeitz at wiennergould.com > > This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email > messages > attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual > responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of > any > of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly > prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify > us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning > us > at (248) 841-9400. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Nora Devine > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:32 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with > Disabilities > > Hi! > > Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities > priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed > to register for classes before all other students. > > My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision > and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe > eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority > registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a > course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also > often left with very little time to convert course materials and text > books. > > Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? > I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would > like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. > > Thanks so much for you help!! > - Nora > > -- > Best Regards, > > Nora Devine > Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 > University of San Francisco School of Law > Tel: 510-508-4209 > devinenora at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo > uld.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From dbeitz at wiennergould.com Mon Nov 29 15:30:12 2010 From: dbeitz at wiennergould.com (Daniel K. Beitz) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 10:30:12 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law StudentswithDisabilities In-Reply-To: <47F11A6CE1374DB8846DA711E4ACAD1B@spike> References: <47F11A6CE1374DB8846DA711E4ACAD1B@spike> Message-ID: <56F6029C42D14FB1A92D4B46C051DE24@DHRL6TC1> The prior Detroit College of Law merged with Michigan State. They built a new facility, and have turned the joint into a pretty good law school. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 7:50 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law StudentswithDisabilities When did Michigan State establish a law school? When I used to live in Michigan the only public law schools were University of Michigan and wayne State University. I left Michigan though in the mid 1980's. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students withDisabilities >I bet Michigan State does. Try them. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Daniel K. Beitz > Wienner & Gould, P.C. > 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 > Rochester, MI 48307 > Phone: (248) 841-9405 > Fax: (248) 652-2729 > dbeitz at wiennergould.com > > This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email > messages > attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual > responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of > any > of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly > prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify > us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning > us > at (248) 841-9400. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Nora Devine > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:32 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with > Disabilities > > Hi! > > Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities > priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed > to register for classes before all other students. > > My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision > and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe > eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority > registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a > course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also > often left with very little time to convert course materials and text > books. > > Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? > I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would > like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. > > Thanks so much for you help!! > - Nora > > -- > Best Regards, > > Nora Devine > Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 > University of San Francisco School of Law > Tel: 510-508-4209 > devinenora at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo > uld.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob al.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 29 17:19:28 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 09:19:28 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for LawStudentswithDisabilities In-Reply-To: <56F6029C42D14FB1A92D4B46C051DE24@DHRL6TC1> References: <47F11A6CE1374DB8846DA711E4ACAD1B@spike> <56F6029C42D14FB1A92D4B46C051DE24@DHRL6TC1> Message-ID: <0CC37339DF4941A89B0749AD7AA1FE31@spike> That's interesting to know. I am now in California so I have lost track pretty much of what goes on in Michigan. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for LawStudentswithDisabilities > The prior Detroit College of Law merged with Michigan State. They built a > new facility, and have turned the joint into a pretty good law school. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Daniel K. Beitz > Wienner & Gould, P.C. > 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 > Rochester, MI 48307 > Phone: (248) 841-9405 > Fax: (248) 652-2729 > dbeitz at wiennergould.com > > This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email > messages > attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual > responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of > any > of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly > prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify > us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning > us > at (248) 841-9400. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 7:50 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law > StudentswithDisabilities > > When did Michigan State establish a law school? When I used to live in > Michigan the only public law schools were University of Michigan and wayne > State University. I left Michigan though in the mid 1980's. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel K. Beitz" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:03 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students > withDisabilities > > >>I bet Michigan State does. Try them. >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> Daniel K. Beitz >> Wienner & Gould, P.C. >> 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 >> Rochester, MI 48307 >> Phone: (248) 841-9405 >> Fax: (248) 652-2729 >> dbeitz at wiennergould.com >> >> This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email >> messages >> attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally >> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual >> responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are >> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of >> any >> of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly >> prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please >> notify >> us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning >> us >> at (248) 841-9400. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Nora Devine >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:32 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with >> Disabilities >> >> Hi! >> >> Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities >> priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed >> to register for classes before all other students. >> >> My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision >> and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe >> eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority >> registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a >> course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also >> often left with very little time to convert course materials and text >> books. >> >> Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? >> I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would >> like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. >> >> Thanks so much for you help!! >> - Nora >> >> -- >> Best Regards, >> >> Nora Devine >> Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 >> University of San Francisco School of Law >> Tel: 510-508-4209 >> devinenora at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo >> uld.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob > al.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo > uld.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From rumpole at roadrunner.com Mon Nov 29 22:57:31 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 17:57:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Twitter notice - DOJ Message-ID: Just FYI-- *** The Civil Rights Division is now on Twitter! Visit www.twitter.com/DOJcivilrights [ http://www.twitter.com/DOJcivilrights ] to follow us for the latest news and information from the Civil Rights Division. Ross A. Doerr Esquire Admitted to Practice in Maine and New Hampshire F. Ct. Admission: ME. N.H. From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com Tue Nov 30 18:17:44 2010 From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:17:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF Message-ID: <346802.70463.qm@web112409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi everybody, I was wondering if there's a way to use Openbook to scan a document into a PDF file. If not, what do you do when you need to scan something into a PDF? Thanks. Mike From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com Tue Nov 30 18:17:55 2010 From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:17:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF Message-ID: <929257.80288.qm@web112420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi everybody, I was wondering if there's a way to use Openbook to scan a document into a PDF file. If not, what do you do when you need to scan something into a PDF? Thanks. Mike From dbeitz at wiennergould.com Tue Nov 30 18:30:31 2010 From: dbeitz at wiennergould.com (Daniel K. Beitz) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 13:30:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF In-Reply-To: <929257.80288.qm@web112420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <929257.80288.qm@web112420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03A94386795441CBBBD92C3DD96BD39B@DHRL6TC1> I just use omnipage. Everything gets scanned into PDF, and then converted to .doc. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Gilmore Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 1:18 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF Hi everybody, I was wondering if there's a way to use Openbook to scan a document into a PDF file. If not, what do you do when you need to scan something into a PDF? Thanks. Mike _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 30 18:32:37 2010 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:32:37 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF In-Reply-To: <346802.70463.qm@web112409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <346802.70463.qm@web112409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <72D96313-6182-4D70-BECF-867D1E8BD652@sbcglobal.net> Scan it to a text document and use a converter program (can Word do this?) to convert it to PDF? The other thing you can do is scan it and save it as a picture; though not a PDF file, it is easily readable by a sighted person on the other end; I had to do this with receipts that would not easily convert to text by OCR, but were still legible when sent as JPG files. Mark BurningHawk Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 Home: Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ Namaste! From rthomas at emplmntattorney.com Tue Nov 30 18:46:42 2010 From: rthomas at emplmntattorney.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:46:42 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF In-Reply-To: <346802.70463.qm@web112409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <346802.70463.qm@web112409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1B323ABC6BB34048B5C7D17E9B652F71@RThomas> If you have created the document in word, you can use "print to pdf" which should change the format of the document to pdf. Another option, is Nuance pdf converter. That program let's you convert readable pdf documents in to word, and let's you convert word documents into pdf. I have used the Nuance product for several years, and I find it easy to use and highly reliable. Respectfully, Russell J. Thomas, Jr. Law Office of Russell J. Thomas, Jr. 4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101 Newport Beach, California 92660 T: (949) 752-0101 F: (949) 257-4756 M: (949) 466-7238 www.emplmnattorney.com Follow me on Twitter: EmplmntAttorney PLEASE NOTE MY NEW EMAIL ADDRESS, EFF. 6/1/2010: RTHOMAS at EMPLMNTATTORNEY.COM -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Gilmore Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:18 AM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF Hi everybody, I was wondering if there's a way to use Openbook to scan a document into a PDF file. If not, what do you do when you need to scan something into a PDF? Thanks. Mike _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi rm.com From rumpole at roadrunner.com Tue Nov 30 18:51:23 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 13:51:23 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSA "no match" posting- employment related Message-ID: SSA "NO-MATCH" GUIDANCE FROM OSC. On November19, 2010, OSC published a new guidance package on how employers and employees should respond to SSA No-Match letters and similar notices from other governmental and non-governmental sources. The package includes Do/Do Not instructional sheets for both employers and employees together with FAQs. Go to: http://www.justice.gov/crt/osc/htm/SSA.php and scroll down to where you find: "SSA NO-MATCH GUIDANCE PAGE" The two links below that phrase, one for employees and one for employers, take you to ADOBE documents, so you will need adobe acrobat reader to read these documents. Ross A. Doerr Esquire Admitted to Practice in Maine and New Hampshire F. Ct. Admission: ME. N.H. From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Nov 30 20:01:04 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:01:04 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:31 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue (JMD) [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 2:26 PM To: 'neysas at dnfsb.gov'; Maurer, Patricia; 'nijc at aol.com'; 'nlove at opd.state.md.us'; 'nmcconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noryrp at cox.net'; 'nowaczej at staff.abanet.org'; 'nromulus at gmail.com'; 'ntb at boglechang.com'; 'nwpatton at law.stanford.edu'; 'nwright at lockelord.com'; 'ocaaba at cox.net'; 'omanager at lawyerscomm.org'; 'padilla at ailc-inc.org'; 'palsd at hotmail.com'; 'patel at fr.com'; 'pchanster at yahoo.com'; 'pchapman at koonz.com'; 'petricha at staff.abanet.org'; 'pgodar at fbtlaw.com'; 'pgrewal at daycasebeer.com'; Maurer, Patricia; 'pmorrison at state.wv.us'; 'poppy.johnston at unlv.edu'; 'president at abaw.org'; 'president at adc.org'; 'president at apaba-dc.org'; 'president at apabala.org'; 'president at blackwomenlawyersla.org'; 'president at dominicanbarassociation.org'; 'president at mabl.org'; 'president at msba.org'; 'president at phillybarristers.org'; 'president at sabadc.org'; 'president at southasianbar.org'; 'rbreiter at law.miami.edu' Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR UNITE STATES TRUSTEES ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF CRIMINAL ENFORCEMENT 10-49-14001 The application package must be received by the closing date of the announcement, which is 12/20/2010. Date posted: 11-26-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA 10-MDPA-09 Applications must be received by 5:00 p.m. EST on December 6, 2010. Date posted: 11-26-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA 11-WDPA-AUSA-01 Application Deadline is Friday, December 23, 2010. Date posted: 11-23-2010 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 30 20:21:53 2010 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:21:53 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF References: <929257.80288.qm@web112420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A4F9216A4BA48F5A5025A4EF3303B72@HP8730notebook> hi, scan it as usual and save as pdf. Bryan Schulz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Gilmore" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 12:17 PM Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF > Hi everybody, > > I was wondering if there's a way to use Openbook to scan a document into a > PDF file. If not, what do you do when you need to scan something into a > PDF? > > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net From dandrews at visi.com Mon Nov 1 02:08:35 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:08:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's In-Reply-To: <444930.12274.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <444930.12274.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If the PDF does contain a scanned document, pasting into Word will do no good, because it is an image of a page. OCR must be done on the PDF, or the PDF would have to be printed to paper then run through optical character recognition, OCR. Dave At 11:23 AM 10/26/2010, you wrote: >I was wondering if anyone has come across my problem. Sometimes, >documents are scanned into a PDF. When they are open, JAWS says that >it's an empty document because, to JAWS, the scanned document is an >image and therefore is treated as if it doesn't exist. Short of >printing out the entire document (which can be very time-consuming >and wasteful of paper if the document is rather long), is there any >way to work around this problem? I thought of copying and pasting >the entire document into a Word document so JAWS can read it. This >works except when the PDF has been made secure and therefore cannot >be copied and pasted. David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From dandrews at visi.com Mon Nov 1 02:10:48 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:10:48 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] stores for the blind in the D.C. Metro area? In-Reply-To: <500085.18212.qm@web112408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <500085.18212.qm@web112408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You can get a free cane from the nfb, go to www.nfb.org Dave At 09:06 PM 10/30/2010, you wrote: >Hi everybody, > >I know this is slightly off topic but I couldn't think of anywhere >else to turn (google didn't help.) I was wondering where those of >you who reside in D.C./northern Virginia purchase your canes. Is >there a store for the blind that sells canes, braille paper, etc. >for the blind close by? > >Thanks. David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us Mon Nov 1 12:41:50 2010 From: david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us (Hyde, David W. (ESC)) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 07:41:50 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's In-Reply-To: References: <444930.12274.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233736F7F1A65@tiger> Hi David. You're right, but you can use the conversion engine built into MS Word. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:09 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's If the PDF does contain a scanned document, pasting into Word will do no good, because it is an image of a page. OCR must be done on the PDF, or the PDF would have to be printed to paper then run through optical character recognition, OCR. Dave At 11:23 AM 10/26/2010, you wrote: >I was wondering if anyone has come across my problem. Sometimes, >documents are scanned into a PDF. When they are open, JAWS says that >it's an empty document because, to JAWS, the scanned document is an >image and therefore is treated as if it doesn't exist. Short of >printing out the entire document (which can be very time-consuming and >wasteful of paper if the document is rather long), is there any way to >work around this problem? I thought of copying and pasting the entire >document into a Word document so JAWS can read it. This works except >when the PDF has been made secure and therefore cannot be copied and >pasted. David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us From stiehm.law at juno.com Mon Nov 1 14:35:53 2010 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H Stiehm) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 10:35:53 -0400 Subject: [blindlaw] stores for the blind in the D.C. Metro area? Message-ID: <20101101.103554.4472.0.stiehm.law@juno.com> Try the Virginia Department for the Blind. I think that their regional office for Northern Virginia is in Fairfax. I don't think they sell canes but they can probably tell you the closest place to go to get one. Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, Virginia 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) Email address: stiehm.law at verizon.net On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Mike Gilmore writes: > Hi everybody, > > I know this is slightly off topic but I couldn't think of anywhere > else to turn (google didn't help.) I was wondering where those of > you who reside in D.C./northern Virginia purchase your canes. Is > there a store for the blind that sells canes, braille paper, etc. > for the blind close by? > > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > > Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, Virginia 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) Email address: stiehm.law at verizon.net ____________________________________________________________ Globe Life Insurance $1* Buys $50,000 Life Insurance. Adults or Children. No Medical Exam. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4cced09066b114c72m04vuc From steve.jacobson at visi.com Mon Nov 1 13:26:56 2010 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 08:26:56 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's In-Reply-To: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233736F7F1A65@tiger> Message-ID: I don't remember the details, but the conversion is only in certain versions of word as I understand it so won't work in all cases. If you have the conversion engine, you are right. As far as I can determine, the versions of Word I have do not have it. Do you know which versions do? Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 07:41:50 -0500, Hyde, David W. (ESC) wrote: >Hi David. You're right, but you can use the conversion engine built into MS Word. >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews >Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:09 PM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's >If the PDF does contain a scanned document, pasting into Word will do no good, because it is an image of a page. OCR must be done on the PDF, or the PDF would have to be printed to paper then run through optical character recognition, OCR. >Dave >At 11:23 AM 10/26/2010, you wrote: >>I was wondering if anyone has come across my problem. Sometimes, >>documents are scanned into a PDF. When they are open, JAWS says that >>it's an empty document because, to JAWS, the scanned document is an >>image and therefore is treated as if it doesn't exist. Short of >>printing out the entire document (which can be very time-consuming and >>wasteful of paper if the document is rather long), is there any way to >>work around this problem? I thought of copying and pasting the entire >>document into a Word document so JAWS can read it. This works except >>when the PDF has been made secure and therefore cannot be copied and >>pasted. > David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us Mon Nov 1 15:16:19 2010 From: david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us (Hyde, David W. (ESC)) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 10:16:19 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's In-Reply-To: References: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233736F7F1A65@tiger> Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233736F7F1A70@tiger> I'm still using 2003. The conversion is under Microsoft office tools. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:27 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's I don't remember the details, but the conversion is only in certain versions of word as I understand it so won't work in all cases. If you have the conversion engine, you are right. As far as I can determine, the versions of Word I have do not have it. Do you know which versions do? Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 07:41:50 -0500, Hyde, David W. (ESC) wrote: >Hi David. You're right, but you can use the conversion engine built into MS Word. >-----Original Message----- >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >On Behalf Of David Andrews >Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:09 PM >To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] reading scanned PDF's >If the PDF does contain a scanned document, pasting into Word will do >no good, because it is an image of a page. OCR must be done on the >PDF, or the PDF would have to be printed to paper then run through optical character recognition, OCR. >Dave >At 11:23 AM 10/26/2010, you wrote: >>I was wondering if anyone has come across my problem. Sometimes, >>documents are scanned into a PDF. When they are open, JAWS says that >>it's an empty document because, to JAWS, the scanned document is an >>image and therefore is treated as if it doesn't exist. Short of >>printing out the entire document (which can be very time-consuming and >>wasteful of paper if the document is rather long), is there any way to >>work around this problem? I thought of copying and pasting the entire >>document into a Word document so JAWS can read it. This works except >>when the PDF has been made secure and therefore cannot be copied and >>pasted. > David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on > Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40 >wcbvi.k12.wi.us >_______________________________________________ >blindlaw mailing list >blindlaw at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso >n%40visi.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us From LRovig at nfb.org Tue Nov 2 00:45:52 2010 From: LRovig at nfb.org (Rovig, Lorraine) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 19:45:52 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? Message-ID: NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND - The NFB Scholarship Program application is now available online. This national scholarship program is available solely to persons who are legally blind and living in the United States or Puerto Rico. There are 30 awards, from $12,000 to $3,000. In addition, each winner will be assisted to attend the NFB Annual Convention for 2011 in Orlando, Florida. The annual contest begins the first week of November 2010; all documents required from the applicants must be postmarked by the March 31, 2011, deadline. Applications and full details are available online at www.nfb.org/scholarships. Questions may be emailed to scholarships at nfb.org. Cordially, Chairperson Patti Chang, Esq. NFB Scholarship Committee NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, MD 21230 at Jernigan Place Office: (410) 659-9314, x2415; E-mail: scholarships at nfb.org; Website: www.nfb.org/scholarships __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5583 (20101101) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 2 01:19:10 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 19:19:10 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? References: Message-ID: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> can I ask why the scholarship program isn't open to North American blind people instead of just United states? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rovig, Lorraine (by way of David Andrews )" To: Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:45 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND - The NFB Scholarship Program application is now available online. This national scholarship program is available solely to persons who are legally blind and living in the United States or Puerto Rico. There are 30 awards, from $12,000 to $3,000. In addition, each winner will be assisted to attend the NFB Annual Convention for 2011 in Orlando, Florida. The annual contest begins the first week of November 2010; all documents required from the applicants must be postmarked by the March 31, 2011, deadline. Applications and full details are available online at www.nfb.org/scholarships. Questions may be emailed to scholarships at nfb.org. Cordially, Chairperson Patti Chang, Esq. NFB Scholarship Committee NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, MD 21230 at Jernigan Place Office: (410) 659-9314, x2415; E-mail: scholarships at nfb.org; Website: www.nfb.org/scholarships __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5583 (20101101) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us Tue Nov 2 13:02:49 2010 From: david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us (Hyde, David W. (ESC)) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 08:02:49 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? In-Reply-To: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> References: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233736F7F1A79@tiger> Because the organization is a United States organization, as opposed to one in Canada or Mexico. The idea is that those who apply will go to college in and continue to live in the United States. Although I'm sure the N.F.B. would like to help the entire world, and do what we can through international organizations, it is beyond our ability to do it. If you are in Canada, you should check organizations there to find available scholarships. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:19 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? can I ask why the scholarship program isn't open to North American blind people instead of just United states? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rovig, Lorraine (by way of David Andrews )" To: Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:45 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND - The NFB Scholarship Program application is now available online. This national scholarship program is available solely to persons who are legally blind and living in the United States or Puerto Rico. There are 30 awards, from $12,000 to $3,000. In addition, each winner will be assisted to attend the NFB Annual Convention for 2011 in Orlando, Florida. The annual contest begins the first week of November 2010; all documents required from the applicants must be postmarked by the March 31, 2011, deadline. Applications and full details are available online at www.nfb.org/scholarships. Questions may be emailed to scholarships at nfb.org. Cordially, Chairperson Patti Chang, Esq. NFB Scholarship Committee NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, MD 21230 at Jernigan Place Office: (410) 659-9314, x2415; E-mail: scholarships at nfb.org; Website: www.nfb.org/scholarships __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5583 (20101101) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us From awebb2168 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 2 21:33:02 2010 From: awebb2168 at hotmail.com (Andrew Webb) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 14:33:02 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind solo practitioners? Message-ID: Hello - I recently took the California Bar Exam, and while I'm still waiting on the results, I'm trying to do as much "market research" as I can in order to appreciate the realities of practice for blind lawyers. I've spoken to a number of blind attorneys who work in government, which seems to be a very popular choice. On the other hand, it appears to me that very, very few blind attorneys are employed at large firms. What I'm wondering at this point is whether there are many blind attorneys who practice either solo or n small firms. It seems to me that I have seen some postings on this list by sole practitioners, but I am not personally acquainted with anyone meeting that description. If any of you on this list practices solo or in a small office, and would be willing to discuss with me your impressions and experiences, I'd be most interested to hear from you. I'm especially keen to hear about any particular advantages or drawbacks to working blind in this sort of practice, as well as "tricks of the trade" that you employ to get your work done. If you're willing to discuss, please send me a message offline at awebb2168 at hotmail.com. Thanks very much. Andrew Webb From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Thu Nov 4 23:25:18 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 18:25:18 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 12:24 PM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue (JMD) [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 3:19 PM To: 'nwright at lockelord.com'; 'ocaaba at cox.net'; 'omanager at lawyerscomm.org'; 'padilla at ailc-inc.org'; 'palsd at hotmail.com'; 'patel at fr.com'; 'pchanster at yahoo.com'; 'pchapman at koonz.com'; 'petricha at staff.abanet.org'; 'pgodar at fbtlaw.com'; 'pgrewal at daycasebeer.com'; Maurer, Patricia; 'pmorrison at state.wv.us'; 'poppy.johnston at unlv.edu'; 'president at abaw.org'; 'president at adc.org'; 'president at apaba-dc.org'; 'president at apabala.org'; 'president at blackwomenlawyersla.org'; 'president at dominicanbarassociation.org'; 'president at mabl.org'; 'president at msba.org'; 'president at phillybarrister.org'; 'president at sabadc.org' Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies * U.S.DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF CHIEF COUNSEL DIVERSION AND REGULATORY LITIGATION SECTION EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY / GS 12 to 15 Announcement is open until filled. Date posted: 11-01-2010 * EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEYS UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE NATIONAL SECURITY DIVISION COUNTERESPIONAGE SECTION Positon open until filled. Date posted: 10-29-2010 * FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS OFFICE OF GENERAL COUNSEL LABOR LAW BRANCH ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL GS-905-15 This position is open until filled, but no later than November 5, 2010. Date posted: 10-29-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF ALABAMA TERM APPOINTMENT NOT TO EXCEED 14 MONTHS ANNOUNCEMENT NO: 11-MDAL-01 Applications must be received in U.S. Attorney's Office by 5:00 P. M. CST on November 5, 2010. Date posted: 10-29-2010 * DEPUTY COUNSEL EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR IMMIGRATION REVIEW FALLS CHURCH, VA VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER: EOIR-11-0043 APPLICATIONS RECEIVED AFTER 11/12/10 WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED. Date posted: 10-29-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS VACANCY NUMBER: 10-EDAR-04 POSTED 10/29/10 All applications must be postmarked by November 12, 2010. Date posted: 10-29-2010 * BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES OFFICE OF THE CHIEF COUNSEL, ADMINISTRATION AND ETHICS DIVISION ATTORNEY ADVISOR(S), GS-905-15 WASHINGTON, DC Applications must be received by November 15, 2010, the closing date of this announcement. Date posted: 10-28-2010 * BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES OFFICE OF THE CHIEF COUNSEL, ADMINISTRATION AND ETHICS DIVISION ATTORNEY (S), GS-905-12/13/14 WASHINGTON, DC Applications must be received by November 15, 2010, the closing date of this announcement. Date posted: 10-28-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 11-SDFL-AUSA-01 Announcement is open until filled. Date posted: 10-28-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON SEATTLE, WASHINGTON VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT: 10-WDWA-AUSA-12 (CRIMINAL) Applications will be accepted through November 2, 2010. Date posted: 10-26-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA ANNOUNCEMENT # 10-WDLA-02 Position is open until filled; however, there will be an initial closing date of 5:00 p.m., CST, November 2, 2010. Date posted: 10-26-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 11-SDTX-02 (AUSA - TERM APPT) The position is open until filled. The initial cutoff date for receipt of applications is November 5, 2010. Date posted: 10-25-2010 * HEADQUARTERS REGIONAL DIRECTOR FOR LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN, GS-905-14/15 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CRIMINAL DIVISION OFFICE OF OVERSEAS PROSECUTORIAL DEVELOPMENT, ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING WASHINGTON, D.C.11-CRM-OPDAT-001 Applications will be accepted until November 12, 2010. Date posted: 10-25-2010 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS OFFICE OF LEGAL AND VICTIM PROGRAMS (OLVP) SUPERVISORY ATTORNEY ADVISOR, GS-0905-15 VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO: 11-EOUSA-001 Application materials must be received by 11:59 p.m. (Eastern Standard Time) on the closing date November 26, 2010. Date posted: 10-25-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT #11-EDTN-AUSA-01 Applications must be received by Friday, November 5, 2010. Date posted: 10-21-2010 * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE U.S. TRUSTEE'S OFFICE -- RIVERSIDE, CA TRIAL ATTORNEY VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT #RS 10-004 Applications must be postmarked by the closing date of November 10, 2010 and will be accepted up to five calendar days after the closing date. Date posted: 10-21-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 10-SDCA-07 Application materials must be postmarked by the deadline date of November 3, 2010. Date posted: 10-20-2010 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 22:35:10 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 15:35:10 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? In-Reply-To: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> References: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: The NFB only functions in the U.S. It does not have affiliates in other north American countries. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? > can I ask why the scholarship program isn't open to North American blind > people instead of just United states? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rovig, Lorraine (by way of David Andrews )" > > To: > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:45 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? > > > > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND - The NFB Scholarship Program > application is now available online. This national scholarship > program is available solely to persons who are legally blind and > living in the United States or Puerto Rico. There are 30 awards, > from $12,000 to $3,000. In addition, each winner will be assisted to > attend the NFB Annual Convention for 2011 in Orlando, Florida. The > annual contest begins the first week of November 2010; all documents > required from the applicants must be postmarked by the March 31, > 2011, deadline. Applications and full details are available online > at > www.nfb.org/scholarships. Questions > may be emailed to scholarships at nfb.org. > Cordially, > > Chairperson Patti Chang, Esq. > NFB Scholarship Committee > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND > 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, MD 21230 > at Jernigan Place > Office: (410) 659-9314, x2415; > E-mail: scholarships at nfb.org; > Website: www.nfb.org/scholarships > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature database 5583 (20101101) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From sbg at sbgaal.com Mon Nov 8 19:32:21 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 13:32:21 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Message-ID: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop> Dear Group: Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track of potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same information available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 Min. to 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so we get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time listening to responses from the State's voir dire. Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. Thanks, Shannon Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Mon Nov 8 19:36:31 2010 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:36:31 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop> References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop> Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: 'Front Desk' Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Dear Group: Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track of potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same information available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 Min. to 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so we get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time listening to responses from the State's voir dire. Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. Thanks, Shannon Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov From sbg at sbgaal.com Mon Nov 8 19:50:39 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 13:50:39 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop> <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Message-ID: I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able to reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror Thanks, Shannon Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Susan Kelly Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Cc: Front Desk Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Cc: 'Front Desk' Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Dear Group: Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track of potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same information available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 Min. to 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so we get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time listening to responses from the State's voir dire. Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. Thanks, Shannon Geihsler Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 19:57:34 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:57:34 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Message-ID: Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings when you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to during the process. HTH Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able to > reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. > It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could > push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror > Thanks, > > Shannon > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Susan Kelly > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Front Desk > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still > correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the > availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one > with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, > it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to > have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential > jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone > that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler > Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: 'Front Desk' > Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Dear Group: > > > > Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track > of > potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel > > > > Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each > square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same > information > available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 > Min. to > 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so > we > get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time > listening to responses from the State's voir dire. > > > > Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Shannon Geihsler > > > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From sbg at sbgaal.com Mon Nov 8 20:29:03 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 14:29:03 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Message-ID: <819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> I do use a llaptop; doing a find is a little slow when you are speaking at the same time. I was unaware that the I-phone had accessibility. Does Jaws work with it or an I-Pad? I have also heard of a new program where a sighted person can take notes and point to a specific note taken and then touch it and it plays back the audio of what was said when that note was taken. This is what I think could be used to have an electronic chart. How can an I phone be used? Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:58 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings when you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to during the process. HTH Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able to > reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. > It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could > push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror > Thanks, > > Shannon > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Susan Kelly > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Front Desk > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still > correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the > availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one > with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, > it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to > have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential > jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone > that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler > Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: 'Front Desk' > Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Dear Group: > > > > Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track > of > potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel > > > > Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each > square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same > information > available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 > Min. to > 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so > we > get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time > listening to responses from the State's voir dire. > > > > Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Shannon Geihsler > > > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us Mon Nov 8 20:36:30 2010 From: david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us (Hyde, David W. (ESC)) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 14:36:30 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: <819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> <819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> Message-ID: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233860BE593DF@tiger> You wouldn't need JAWS with Apple products since its voice output program is built in. You could use a keyboard bluetoothed to an Eye Phone. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think this would really solve the problem, since you're still going to have something talking while you are. Now some of us can talk and listen simultaneously, and some can't. A couple of ideas though, and use them if they're helpful. Use a rating scale for each juror. Put it into Excel or a database, and then sort for the characteristics you want, using the values of the scale. Something as simple as a Lickert scale on each of several attributes would work. I'd be very surprised if such a rating system doesn't already exist. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 2:29 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire I do use a llaptop; doing a find is a little slow when you are speaking at the same time. I was unaware that the I-phone had accessibility. Does Jaws work with it or an I-Pad? I have also heard of a new program where a sighted person can take notes and point to a specific note taken and then touch it and it plays back the audio of what was said when that note was taken. This is what I think could be used to have an electronic chart. How can an I phone be used? Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:58 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings when you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to during the process. HTH Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able to > reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. > It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could > push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror > Thanks, > > Shannon > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Susan Kelly > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Front Desk > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still > correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the > availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one > with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, > it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to > have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential > jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone > that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler > Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: 'Front Desk' > Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Dear Group: > > > > Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track > of > potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel > > > > Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each > square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same > information > available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 > Min. to > 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so > we > get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time > listening to responses from the State's voir dire. > > > > Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Shannon Geihsler > > > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 21:06:38 2010 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:06:38 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov><819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233860BE593DF@tiger> Message-ID: <276D7C14F4EC4DF392C53A17C32136EE@hometwxakonvzn> Sounds like a plan! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hyde, David W. (ESC)" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > You wouldn't need JAWS with Apple products since its voice output program > is built in. You could use a keyboard bluetoothed to an Eye Phone. I'm not > a lawyer, but I don't think this would really solve the problem, since > you're still going to have something talking while you are. Now some of us > can talk and listen simultaneously, and some can't. > > A couple of ideas though, and use them if they're helpful. Use a rating > scale for each juror. Put it into Excel or a database, and then sort for > the characteristics you want, using the values of the scale. Something as > simple as a Lickert scale on each of several attributes would work. I'd be > very surprised if such a rating system doesn't already exist. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 2:29 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > I do use a llaptop; doing a find is a little slow when you are speaking at > the same time. I was unaware that the I-phone had accessibility. Does > Jaws work with it or an I-Pad? I have also heard of a new program where a > sighted person can take notes and point to a specific note taken and then > touch it and it plays back the audio of what was said when that note was > taken. This is what I think could be used to have an electronic chart. > > How can an I phone be used? > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Marc Workman > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:58 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word > document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly > read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. > > Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some > other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings > when > > you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to > during the process. > > HTH > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shannon Geihsler" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > >>I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able >>to >> reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. >> It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could >> push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror >> Thanks, >> >> Shannon >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Susan Kelly >> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Front Desk >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >> >> Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still >> correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the >> availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one >> with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, >> it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to >> have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential >> jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone >> that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler >> Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: 'Front Desk' >> Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >> >> Dear Group: >> >> >> >> Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track >> of >> potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel >> >> >> >> Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each >> square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same >> information >> available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 >> Min. to >> 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so >> we >> get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time >> listening to responses from the State's voir dire. >> >> >> >> Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Shannon Geihsler >> >> >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >> recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 >> pima.gov >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 21:10:39 2010 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:10:39 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Florida Gardian Ad Litem program Message-ID: Several years ago, I filed a complaint with DOJ, because the Florida guardian AD Litem program told me I'd have to be able to see, in order for me to be able to valenteer as a guardian. They sent me a closing letter, detailing what happened. I am happy I was able to bring change to this state agency. RJ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FL Guardian ad Litem cls cp.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 48105 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sbg at sbgaal.com Mon Nov 8 22:17:54 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:17:54 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233860BE593DF@tiger> References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov><819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> <8FE3DA4A52652B4D8EC80883B3DC1233860BE593DF@tiger> Message-ID: I am glad to know it does have speech, but how do you operate the phone when it is a touch screen? I can speak and listen at the same time. I was just saying that doing a find when I want to ask a specific juror a question is too slow to do while you are doing questioning. I am intrigued with your suggestion of using excel, but I am unfamiliar with the term Lickert scale and how to set up the spreadsheet. Would you assign a value to each attribute and how do you come up with uniform attributes. I mean there are some such as race sex age etc., but what about being able to note specific questions the juror asked or comments they made? Can you describe what you are suggesting a little more specifically. Thanks, jShannon Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hyde, David W. (ESC) Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 2:37 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire You wouldn't need JAWS with Apple products since its voice output program is built in. You could use a keyboard bluetoothed to an Eye Phone. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think this would really solve the problem, since you're still going to have something talking while you are. Now some of us can talk and listen simultaneously, and some can't. A couple of ideas though, and use them if they're helpful. Use a rating scale for each juror. Put it into Excel or a database, and then sort for the characteristics you want, using the values of the scale. Something as simple as a Lickert scale on each of several attributes would work. I'd be very surprised if such a rating system doesn't already exist. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 2:29 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire I do use a llaptop; doing a find is a little slow when you are speaking at the same time. I was unaware that the I-phone had accessibility. Does Jaws work with it or an I-Pad? I have also heard of a new program where a sighted person can take notes and point to a specific note taken and then touch it and it plays back the audio of what was said when that note was taken. This is what I think could be used to have an electronic chart. How can an I phone be used? Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:58 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings when you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to during the process. HTH Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able to > reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. > It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could > push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror > Thanks, > > Shannon > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Susan Kelly > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Cc: Front Desk > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still > correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the > availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one > with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, > it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to > have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential > jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone > that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler > Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Cc: 'Front Desk' > Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Dear Group: > > > > Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track > of > potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel > > > > Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each > square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same > information > available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 > Min. to > 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so > we > get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time > listening to responses from the State's voir dire. > > > > Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Shannon Geihsler > > > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi .k12.wi.us _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Tue Nov 9 00:42:40 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 19:42:40 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: <819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop> <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov> <819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> Message-ID: Do you actually work in a court room? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >I do use a llaptop; doing a find is a little slow when you are speaking at > the same time. I was unaware that the I-phone had accessibility. Does > Jaws > work with it or an I-Pad? I have also heard of a new program where a > sighted person can take notes and point to a specific note taken and then > touch it and it plays back the audio of what was said when that note was > taken. This is what I think could be used to have an electronic chart. > > How can an I phone be used? > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Marc Workman > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:58 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word > document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly > read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. > > Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some > other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings > when > > you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to > during the process. > > HTH > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shannon Geihsler" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > >>I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able >>to >> reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. >> It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could >> push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror >> Thanks, >> >> Shannon >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Susan Kelly >> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Front Desk >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >> >> Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still >> correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the >> availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one >> with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, >> it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to >> have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential >> jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone >> that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler >> Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: 'Front Desk' >> Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >> >> Dear Group: >> >> >> >> Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track >> of >> potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel >> >> >> >> Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each >> square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same >> information >> available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 >> Min. to >> 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so >> we >> get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time >> listening to responses from the State's voir dire. >> >> >> >> Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Shannon Geihsler >> >> >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >> recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 >> pima.gov >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3242 - Release Date: 11/07/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3245 - Release Date: 11/08/10 14:34:00 From sbg at sbgaal.com Tue Nov 9 15:19:24 2010 From: sbg at sbgaal.com (Shannon Geihsler) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 09:19:24 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire In-Reply-To: References: <3303B14874EF4DA590E8F30D3381EDBB@HPLaptop><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E705@EVS02.central.pima.gov><819E4CE9A9934482AF4D040DC536DA12@HPLaptop> Message-ID: <8F95B64E46254BB289D26A20AC781768@HPLaptop> Yes Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC 1001 Main St., Suite 803 Lubbock, TX 79401 Phone: 763-3999 Fax: 749-3752 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 6:43 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire Do you actually work in a court room? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Geihsler" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >I do use a llaptop; doing a find is a little slow when you are speaking at > the same time. I was unaware that the I-phone had accessibility. Does > Jaws > work with it or an I-Pad? I have also heard of a new program where a > sighted person can take notes and point to a specific note taken and then > touch it and it plays back the audio of what was said when that note was > taken. This is what I think could be used to have an electronic chart. > > How can an I phone be used? > > Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC > 1001 Main St., Suite 803 > Lubbock, TX 79401 > Phone: 763-3999 > Fax: 749-3752 > > This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or > attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express > permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Marc Workman > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:58 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > Could you not just use a laptop? Perhaps use the find feature in a word > document to search for the relevant name or juror number, and then quickly > read the info using an ear bud or a braille display. > > Alternatively, you might use an iPhone, a Victor Reader Stream, or some > other accessible audio recording device. You can make short recordings > when > > you get the information, and then you can listen to them when you want to > during the process. > > HTH > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shannon Geihsler" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire > > >>I do always bring someone with me, but that doesn't help with being able >>to >> reference names and connecting them with the info I already have on them. >> It would be great if we had some sort of electronic chart where we could >> push the no. of the juror and get via audio the info on the juror >> Thanks, >> >> Shannon >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Susan Kelly >> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:37 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Cc: Front Desk >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >> >> Just a tip, which actually comes from when my vision was still >> correctable.... As public defenders, we took advantage of the >> availability of law clerks and support staff, and tried to bring one >> with us for voir dire and other critical portions of trial. Obviously, >> it was nice to have an extra set of hands, but it was also helpful to >> have another person's perspective on the body language of the potential >> jurors. It's not a tech solution, clearly - but if there is someone >> that can accompany you in that manner, it really is valuable. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of Shannon Geihsler >> Sent: Monday, 08 November, 2010 12:32 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Cc: 'Front Desk' >> Subject: [blindlaw] Technology Help with Voir Dire >> >> Dear Group: >> >> >> >> Does anyone know of a device or program or even tips for keeping track >> of >> potential jurors when doing voir dire where you have a 40+ panel >> >> >> >> Sighted people use a chart and place the name and pertinent info on each >> square for each juror. I would like to be able to have the same >> information >> available to me. We are given the juror's information only about 30 >> Min. to >> 1 hour before voir dire begins. I am a criminal defense attorney and so >> we >> get a bit more time since we go second, but I prefer to use this time >> listening to responses from the State's voir dire. >> >> >> >> Please let me know anything that has been used with success or ideas. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Shannon Geihsler >> >> >> >> Law Office of Shannon Brady Geihsler, PLLC >> 1001 Main St., Suite 803 >> Lubbock, TX 79401 >> Phone: 763-3999 >> Fax: 749-3752 >> >> This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or >> attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any >> review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express >> permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >> recipient, >> please contact the sender and delete all copies. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 >> pima.gov >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/sbg%40sbgaal.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3242 - Release Date: 11/07/10 02:34:00 From dandrews at visi.com Sun Nov 7 04:22:58 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 23:22:58 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Do you need money for college? In-Reply-To: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> References: <01a501cb7a2b$f43f1b70$400110ac@GPD945> Message-ID: Probably because we are a U.S. organization, not a U.S./Canada/Mexico organization. Dave At 08:19 PM 11/1/2010, you wrote: >can I ask why the scholarship program isn't open to North American blind >people instead of just United states? >----- Original Message ----- David Andrews: dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV Wed Nov 10 17:59:42 2010 From: Bennett.Prows at HHS.GOV (Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR)) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 12:59:42 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] {Disarmed} Job Announcement for Legal Technician Message-ID: <45909D82C38DBE408DA69213A6A4C7779D8F45DCEE@PL-EMSMB4.ees.hhs.gov> From the USAjobs web site: Job Title: Legal Technician Department: Department Of Health And Human Services Agency: Office of the Secretary of Health and Human Services Sub Agency: Department of Health and Human Services Job Announcement Number: HHS-OS-04-2011-0003 SALARY RANGE: $45,838.00 - $65,812.00 /year OPEN PERIOD: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 to Friday, November 26, 2010 SERIES & GRADE: GS-0986-08/09 POSITION INFORMATION: Full Time Permanent PROMOTION POTENTIAL: 09 DUTY LOCATIONS: 1 vacancy - Seattle, WA WHO MAY BE CONSIDERED: This is a competitive vacancy, open to all United States citizens, advertised under the Delegated Examining Authority. This vacancy is concurrently advertised under merit promotion (MP) procedures for status candidates under announcement HHS-OS-04-2011-0004. Candidates who wish to be considered under both procedures MUST apply under both announcements. JOB SUMMARY: Become a part of the Department that touches the lives of every American! At the Department of Health and Human Services you can give back to your community, state, and country by making a difference in the lives of Americans everywhere. Join HHS and help to make our world healthier, safer and better for all Americans. Through Schedule A: People with Mental Retardation, Severe Physical Disabilities, or Psychiatric Disabilities who have documentation from a licensed medical professional or other entity may apply for noncompetitive appointment through the Schedule A (5 CFR 213.3102(u)) hiring authority. Applicants with documentation may apply directly to agencies' Selective Placement Program Coordinators (SPPC) or equivalent to receive placement assistance. Simply send a resume plus the proof of your disability and job certification documentation to the agency's SPPC or equivalent. This proof may be in the form of documentation obtained from licensed medical professionals, state or private vocational rehabilitation specialists, or any Government agency that issues or provides disability benefits. The certification must include a statement that the individual is very likely to succeed in the performance of the duties of a Legal Technician. A Sample Certification Letter can be downloaded for your provider's use. Sample Certification Letter This position is located with the Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS), Office of the Secretary (OS), Office of the General Counsel (OGC), Region X in Seattle, WA. Position Details: Tenure: Career/Career Conditional Bargaining Unit Position: No Recruitment Bonus: No Relocation Paid: No Probation: A one-year probationary period may be required upon selection/ placement. Additional selections may be made from this announcement. PHS Commissioned Officers interested in performing the duties of this position as a career/career-conditional employee should also apply online under this announcement in order to receive consideration. Salary range listed includes locality pay New to the Government Application Process? We want to be sure you have an opportunity to be considered, so please review the information on the "Qualifications and Evaluations" tab and follow the instructions listed on the "How to Apply" tab. KEY REQUIREMENTS: * You must be a U.S. Citizen by the closing date to qualify. * Travel Required: No * Please carefully read and follow the instructions for HOW TO APPLY. Back to top Duties Additional Duty Location Info: 1 vacancy - Seattle, WA If selected for this position, duties include but are not limited to: Review cases and supporting documents for completeness of information, proper execution, certification, technical details, and other requirements; Review requests for advice and other legal documents. Screen outgoing memoranda, correspondence and documents (particularly attachments) for clarity, accuracy, and completeness. Check outgoing documents for compliance with legal format requirements and determines accuracy of citations to cases, statutes and regulations; Identify and supply current judicial opinions, significant legal briefs, and memoranda. Assist in the preparation of legal pleadings and briefs. Ensure that all litigation-related documents contain required exhibits, attachments, and other necessary materials. Check legal citation. Perform legal research; Assist in the maintenance of a legal tracking system used to track litigation, correspondence, and personnel time; Prepare all domestic travel reservations and arrangements; Maintain time & leave records on an automated timekeeping system; Prepare general correspondence in response to requests for information based upon knowledge of office's policies and procedures or instructions from lead support staff. Back to top Qualifications and Evaluations QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED: Basic Qualifications GS-8: You must have one (1) year of specialized experience that has equipped you with the particular knowledge, skills, and abilities to perform successfully the duties of the position, and that is typically in or related to the work of the position to be filled. To be creditable, specialized experience must have been equivalent to at least the GS-7 level in the Federal Government. Examples of specialized experience include: - Experience using basic legal research sources and methods, legal analysis, and court opinions to cite legal materials in a memorandum and in other types of legal writing. GS-9: You must have one (1) year of specialized experience that has equipped you with the particular knowledge, skills, and abilities to perform successfully the duties of the position, and that is typically in or related to the work of the position to be filled. To be creditable, specialized experience must have been equivalent to at least the GS-8 level in the Federal Government. Examples of specialized experience include: - Experience using database or spreadsheet software to enter, revise, sort or calculate, and retrieve data for legal cases and opinions. You must meet citizenship and all other qualification requirements by the closing date of this announcement. All male citizens of the United States born after December 31, 1959, must be registered for the Selective Service to be eligible for Federal employment. For more information about registering with the Selective Service visit: www.sss.gov. A favorable background/security investigation under Homeland Security Presidential Directive (HSPD) -12 and other applicable laws and regulations is a condition of employment for this position. A credit check may be required as part of the investigation. An unfavorable adjudication of a background/security investigation may result in your removal from the federal service. HOW YOU WILL BE EVALUATED: Your resume and responses to the self-assessment job questions are an integral part of the process for determining your basic and specialized qualifications for the position. Therefore, it is important to support your responses to the applicant assessment questions by providing examples of past and present experience when requested. High self-assessment in the vacancy questions that is not supported by information in your resume, essay responses, and/or supporting documents may eliminate you from best-qualified status or result in a lowered score. There are several parts of the application process that affect the overall evaluation of your application: 1. Your resume in which is part of your USAJOBS profile 2. Your responses to the core questions 3. Your responses to the self-assessment job-specific questions 4. Your supporting documents, if requested Your application will be evaluated and rated under Category Rating and Selection procedures. Category rating combines the applicant's total qualifying experience and education/training into a single quality category. If you meet the basic qualification requirements, we will further evaluate your entire application package to determine the quality and extent of your experience, education, training, etc., for placement in one of the following categories: 1) Best Qualified - Meets the Minimum Qualification Requirements and excels in most requirements of the position; 2) Well Qualified - Meets the Minimum Qualification Requirements and meets most requirements of the position; 3) Qualified - Meets the Minimum Qualification Requirements, but does not possess the relevant competencies to a substantive degree. A selecting official may make selections from the highest quality category (Best Qualified) provided no preference eligible in that category is passed over to select a non-preference eligible in that category unless approval has been granted. Please be sure to allow yourself adequate time to apply for this vacancy. We recommend that you preview the questions for this announcement before you start the application process using the "click here" link below.To preview questions please click here<%20https://jobs1.quickhire.com/scripts/HHS-RHRC_QHBCWeb.exe/ROSApply?CONFIGID=C7701J21425>. Back to top Benefits and Other Info BENEFITS: Federal Employees Health Benefits Program More Info Federal Employees' Group Life Insurance More Info Long-Term Care Insurance More Info Almost all new employees are automatically covered by the Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS). If you are transferring from another agency and covered by CSRS, you may continue in this program. More Info Annual Leave More Info Sick Leave More Info Information on Federal holidays that fall within your regularly scheduled tour of duty. More Info Alternative work schedule options may be available. If you use public transportation, part of your transportation costs may be subsidized. Our human resources office can provide additional information on how this program is run. OTHER INFORMATION: In an effort to promote efficiency in the hiring process, the resume and corresponding responses of successful candidates may be shared with other Health and Human Services (HHS) organizations serviced by the Rockville Human Resources Center (RHRC) with similar vacancies (i.e., vacancies with the same title, series, grade and promotional potential as the position advertised). Applicants are strongly encouraged to apply directly to the vacancy of interest and not rely on this possibility as a means to securing employment. If you do not want your application shared with other HHS organizations, you must notify the point of contact listed on this vacancy announcement and your record will be noted accordingly. Selections made under this announcement will be processed as new appointments to the civil service. Current civil service employees would, therefore, be given a new appointment to the civil service. E-Verify: If you are selected for this position, the documentation that you present for purposes of completing the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Form I-9 will be verified through the DHS "E-Verify" system. Federal law requires DHHS to use the E-Verify system to verify the employment eligibility of all new hires, and obligates the new hire to take affirmative steps to resolve any discrepancies identified by the system as a condition of continued employment. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services is an E-Verify Participant. Equal Opportunity Employment. Equality is held as one of the most important values here at HHS. Selection for this - and any other - position will be based solely on merit. HHS does not discriminate on the premises of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, politics, marital status, sexual orientation, physical or mental disability, age or membership or non- membership in an employee organization. Special Consideration: Certain veterans, displaced federal employees, and the disabled may be eligible for special consideration. Please refer to the following links for additional information and documentation requirements. Veterans Information Schedule A Information Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) Surplus or Displaced Employees CTAP Criteria. Displaced Federal employees ICTAP criteria. Back to top How To Apply HOW TO APPLY: Please read the ENTIRE vacancy announcement to ensure that you comply with the application procedures. Your application will be regarded as incomplete, if the Rockville Human Resources Center (RHRC) does not receive your application and all required supplemental documentation, as specified in the "Supporting documents" section of this vacancy announcement, by 11:59 PM Eastern Time (ET) on the closing date of this vacancy announcement. Your application and all required supplemental documents must be submitted in the manner specified in this section. Applications and supplemental documents that are submitted in any other manner without prior approval from the agency point of contact will be handled as incomplete and will not be considered. You must complete the following three steps described below in order to apply for this position online. STEP ONE - (Online Resume - USAJOBS) You must create a user account and at least one Federal resume at USAJOBS. Information you provide in USAJOBS is general information completed by all applicants. The information you provide and your Federal resume will become part of your application and will automatically be transferred to the HHS Careers system when you apply on-line. After you finish submitting your resume from USAJOBS, you will automatically be taken to HHS Careers where you will be asked to complete the next step of the application process. You may edit your resume up until 11:59 PM ET of the announcement close date. STEP TWO - (Vacancy Specific Questions - HHS Careers) In HHS Careers, you will answer vacancy specific questions necessary to evaluate your qualifications for the specific job to which you are applying. When completed, the information you provided at USAJOBS and the answers to the HHS Careers questions will become your application. You may edit your answers by 11:59 PM ET of the announcement close date. When completing the online questionnaire, please do not inflate your qualifications or underestimate your previous experience. You will receive a rating based on your responses to the questionnaire. STEP THREE - (Submit Supporting Documents - HHS Careers) After you have completed the vacancy specific question and selected the "FINISH" button, a list of fax cover sheets will appear with instructions. A complete listing of the material that must be submitted to the HR office is provided in the "Supporting documents" section of this announcement. Review this section for which documents are applicable to you and how to submit. Most of these documents will be requested upon completion of the Vacancy Questionnaire. All applicable supplemental application material must be received at the appropriate fax number, shown on the fax cover sheet, by 11:59 PM Eastern Time on the closing date. For additional Information: Rockville Center HelpDesk Telephone 888-478-4340 quickquestions at psc.gov Hours of operation: Monday through Friday 7:30AM to 5:00PM ET TTY/TDD 800-877-8339 Reasonable Accommodation: This agency provides reasonable accommodation to applicants with disabilities. If you need a reasonable accommodation for any part of the application and hiring process, please contact the Rockville Center HelpDesk Telephone (888)-478-4340, TTY/TDD (800)-877-8339; email quickquestions at psc.gov. The decision on granting reasonable accommodation will be made on a case-by-case basis. If applying online poses a hardship to you, the Rockville Center HelpDesk listed on the announcement will provide assistance to ensure that applications are submitted online by the closing date. You must contact the Rockville Center HelpDesk prior to the closing date of this announcement to receive assistance. Hours of operation: Monday through Friday 7:30AM to 5:00PM ET (excluding Federal Holidays). REQUIRED DOCUMENTS: Supporting Documentation Your application will be considered INCOMPLETE if you do not FAX all required supporting documentation before 11:59 PM ET on the closing date of this vacancy announcement. Our fax number is 571-258-4052. During the online application process, you will encounter a webpage which lists the available fax coversheets. There will be several options available. However, you only need to print and submit the fax coversheets that are applicable to you as an applicant. You must submit a coversheet for each type of supporting documentation. Only the fax coversheet will ensure the proper receipt of your materials(s) and the coversheet MUST be page one (1) of the corresponding supporting documents. All supporting documents must be faxed before 11:59 PM ET on the closing date of the vacancy. You will receive an email confirming receipt of your faxed supporting documents within 24 hours. Each online application generates fax cover sheets that contain a unique Barcode. You must use the cover sheets generated by this online application when submitting your supporting documents. DO NOT use fax cover sheets generated by a different online application. PLEASE NOTE: Not all of the document types listed will pertain to you; only submit documents needed to complete your application package. For example, the Schedule A Certification document must only be submitted by individuals applying based on eligibility for appointment due to a disability. The SF-50 is a form current and former Federal employees submit to document their Federal employment status. Below is a list of supporting documents for this announcement. This is not an all-inclusive list of supporting documents. Please only submit the documents that are APPLICABLE to you as an individual applicant: --EDUCATION DOCUMENTS: You must fax copies of your college transcripts if using education to qualify or if the position requires positive education. UNOFFICIAL COPIES ARE ACCEPTABLE at the application phase; however, you will be required to provide official transcripts upon entry on duty. (See paragraph under education if you are currently in series advertised.) Foreign Degree Note: All foreign degrees must be evaluated by a nationally recognized Accrediting Agency. You must submit proof of such evaluation and/or conversion. National Association of Credential Evaluation Services website<%20http://www.naces.org/members.htm>. This list, which may not be all inclusive, is for informational purposes only and does not imply any endorsement of any specific agency. --CTAP/ICTAP (FOR DISPLACED EMPLOYEES): If you are applying under the Career Transition Assistance Program (CTAP) or under the Interagency Career Transition Assistance Program (ICTAP), please FAX a copy of your SF-50 and RIF Notice dated within one year. Information regarding the CTAP can be found by clicking CTAP INFO Information regarding the ICTAP can be found by clicking ICTAP INFO --VETERANS: If you are a veteran, please FAX a copy of your DD214, which states the type of discharge received. If you are a disabled veteran, please FAX a copy of your DD214, SF-15, and a copy of your VA Disability Letter issued after 1991 or later documenting a service-related disability. Information regarding the eligibility requirements for 5-point and 10-point veterans' preference can be found by clicking HERE. If you encounter technical difficulties during the faxing process please call the Rockville Center HelpDesk at 1-888-478-4340 Monday through Friday, 7:30AM to 5:00PM ET (excluding Federal holidays). AGENCY CONTACT INFO: Rockville Center HelpDesk Phone: 888-478-4340 Fax: 571-258-4052 TDD: 800-877-8339 Email: quickquestions at psc.gov Agency Information: Department of Health and Human Services DHHS Rockville HR Center 5600 Fishers Lane Rockville, MD 20857 Fax: 571-258-4052 WHAT TO EXPECT NEXT: Once the online questionnaire is received, you will receive an acknowledgement email that your submission was successful. Once the announcement closes, we will review applications to identify the best qualified candidates. Due to a high volume of phone calls and emails, please use MYUSAJOBS WEBSITE to check the status of your application. The most highly qualified candidates will be referred to the hiring manager for further consideration and possible interview.< Back to top [cid:image002.gif at 01CB80BD.DED18B40] Go to section of this Job: Overview Duties Qualifications and Evaluations Benefits and Other Info How to Apply [cid:image003.gif at 01CB80BD.DED18B40] [cid:image004.gif at 01CB80BD.DED18B40] [cid:image005.gif at 01CB80BD.DED18B40] [cid:image006.gif at 01CB80BD.DED18B40] Agency Information: Department of Health and Human Services DHHS Rockville HR Center 5600 Fishers Lane Rockville, MD 20857 Fax: 571-258-4052 Questions about this job: Rockville Center HelpDesk Phone: 888-478-4340 Fax: 571-258-4052 TDD: 800-877-8339 Email: quickquestions at psc.gov Job Announcement Number: HHS-OS-04-2011-0003 Control Number: 2091024 [cid:image007.gif at 01CB80BD.DED18B40] EEO Policy Statement | Reasonable Accommodation Policy Statement | Veterans Information | Legal and Regulatory Guidance Site Map Contact Us Help/FAQs Employers Privacy Act and Public Burden Information This is a United States Office of Personnel Management website. USAJOBS is the Federal Government's official one-stop source for Federal jobs and employment information. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 106 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.gif Type: image/gif Size: 224 bytes Desc: image002.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1910 bytes Desc: image003.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1459 bytes Desc: image004.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1350 bytes Desc: image005.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1367 bytes Desc: image006.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.gif Type: image/gif Size: 613 bytes Desc: image007.gif URL: From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 12 20:22:35 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:22:35 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] comments due November 17 for deaf-blind communications device distribution Message-ID: <7EEA5F28E4EA4F7F80FB6391E7D0A7B6@spike> On November 3, 2010, the Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau of the FCC released a Public Notice seeking comment on the best way to implement a national program that will distribute specialized customer premises communications equipment to individuals who are deaf-blind.? This Public Notice is being released to implement a mandate in the newly enacted 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act, which requires rules on this issue within 6 months. You are encouraged to file comments in this proceeding, and please note carefully the short comment deadlines, which are needed to comply with the very tight schedule established by the 21st Century Act. The Comment due date is November 17, 2010 and the Reply Comment due date is November 23, 2010. To retrieve an electronic copy of the Public Notice please click on the link below. http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-10-2112A1.doc From shannonldillon at hotmail.com Sun Nov 14 04:05:49 2010 From: shannonldillon at hotmail.com (Shannon L. Dillon) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 04:05:49 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] hey Message-ID: i can't believe i didn't know about this sooner i cant express how awesome earing cash from their house is this was huge for me http://bit.ly/9kag2Y its a given that youll feel sensational you won't regret this at all From dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sun Nov 14 14:01:45 2010 From: dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net (dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 08:01:45 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] hey References: Message-ID: <5741474E68174E60A587F0837B18FEEC@DANELLIEVANDAWN> Am I the only one that didn't quite get this message? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon L. Dillon" To: Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 10:05 PM Subject: [blindlaw] hey >i can't believe i didn't know about this sooner i cant express how awesome >earing cash from their house is this was huge for me href="http://bit.ly/9kag2Y">http://bit.ly/9kag2Y its a given that youll >feel sensational you won't regret this at all > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dlmlaw%40sbcglobal.net From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sun Nov 14 22:55:46 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 17:55:46 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? Message-ID: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> Hi all: Just wondering, is it true that if you're going to form an LLC you require a publication to be made in 2 newspapers? That's what I heard, but don't know if its true because it hasn't been mentioned in any of the government resources I look at. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks, Jorge From rthomas at emplmntattorney.com Mon Nov 15 15:05:35 2010 From: rthomas at emplmntattorney.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 07:05:35 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? In-Reply-To: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> Message-ID: <2C8A4CBFA4174AA5ABFA718431317CDB@RThomas> Establishing an LLC is controlled by the law of each State. Check with the Secretary of State office in your State to learn what you have to do. If your State has a website, you can probably find the information on that website. Respectfully, Russell J. Thomas, Jr. Law Office of Russell J. Thomas, Jr. 4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101 Newport Beach, California 92660 T: (949) 752-0101 F: (949) 257-4756 M: (949) 466-7238 www.emplmnattorney.com Follow me on Twitter: EmplmntAttorney PLEASE NOTE MY NEW EMAIL ADDRESS, EFF. 6/1/2010: RTHOMAS at EMPLMNTATTORNEY.COM -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jorge Paez Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 2:56 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? Hi all: Just wondering, is it true that if you're going to form an LLC you require a publication to be made in 2 newspapers? That's what I heard, but don't know if its true because it hasn't been mentioned in any of the government resources I look at. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks, Jorge _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi rm.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Nov 15 17:30:19 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:30:19 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] 2011 Hearne Award Nomination Form and Instructions, American Bar Association Message-ID: Link: http://new.abanet.org/disability/Pages/HearneNomination_Open.aspx Text: 2011 Hearne Award Nomination Form and Instructions About the Award & Instructions ABOUT THE AWARD The Hearne Award, created in 1999, honors the work of Paul G. Hearne, a lawyer who was born with connective tissue disorder. Although Mr. Hearne's disease limited his growth to less than four feet, and restricted his movement, he moved mountains. Mr. Hearne's mark on the disability rights movement, especially from a legal perspective, was tremendous. He founded the first legal services office in New York for people with disabilities, authored the first national legal handbook on disability rights, and helped draft the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. The award is to be presented to an individual who has performed exemplary service in the furtherance of access to justice for people with disabilities, or an organization or group that furthers the goal of full participation for people with disabilities in society. Click here to learn more about the award. SELECTION CRITERIA Nominate an individual or an organization that has made significant contributions to furthering the rights, dignity, and access to justice for people with disabilities. Examples of eligible organizations include: (1) disability advocacy organizations; (2) a law firm or law practice; (3) a state or local bar association; (4) a nonprofit legal services program; (5) a law school clinic or academic-affiliated program; or (6) a law-related program providing representation for people with disabilities. The following individuals and organizations are ineligible: 1. Self nominations. Therefore, any explanations of the nominee's qualifications may not be from the nominee. 2. A current member of the Commission or his or her immediate family members. Previous Commissioners and their family members may be nominated. 3. An individual that works at the same organization, company, or entity as a current Commission member, or an organization, company, or entity where a current Commission member works. These individuals or entities may be nominated after a Commission member serves his or her last term. INSTRUCTIONS All applications require two items: * the nomination form * a description of your nominee's qualifications (no more than three pages) along with a list of your nominee's accomplishments (no more than ten pages) You can submit these items in one of two ways. First, you can fill out the form below and attach the required description and list document through our online form. If you choose this option, you must place the description of your nominee's qualifications and the listing of your nominee's accomplishments into one file (our system will only allow you to attach one file to your form). Second, you can download the nomination form here: * 2011 Paul G. Hearne Award Nomination Form and mail, fax, or e-mail a completed form to: The Paul G. Hearne Award c/o William J. Phelan, IV American Bar Association Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law 740 15th Street N.W., 9th Floor Washington, DC 20005 fax: 202-442-3439 e-mail: phelanw at staff.abanet.org Please remember that all documents must be received or postmarked by March 31, 2011. If you submit your documents electronically, make sure all PDFs are accessible and tagged for people who use screen-reading software. MS Word is preferred. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Picture (Device Independent Bitmap) 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 769 bytes Desc: Picture (Device Independent Bitmap) 1.jpg URL: From ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com Mon Nov 15 17:50:18 2010 From: ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 10:50:18 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> Message-ID: Hi George: Wouldn't the rules differ from state to state? In some countries, registration of a company is centralized; as far as I know, it is not so in the United States! I'd suggest you call the agency responsible for company/trade name registration in your state of residence to find out what their new rules. Here in Colorado, I have received no word from the Colorado Secretary of State's office about publishing information on an LLC registration in either our newspapers or any other national publication. Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado From rfarber at jw.com Mon Nov 15 19:10:57 2010 From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 13:10:57 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? In-Reply-To: References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> Message-ID: <3E86A9F3DC676742B192213CC4E9D4A266BB17EA@PDC-MAIL02.jwllp.com> Its not always the registration rules that apply. In Texas, in a sole proprietorship changes to an entity, then an advertisement needs to be published. This is a misc. law and not in the registration/formation statute. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:50 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? Hi George: Wouldn't the rules differ from state to state? In some countries, registration of a company is centralized; as far as I know, it is not so in the United States! I'd suggest you call the agency responsible for company/trade name registration in your state of residence to find out what their new rules. Here in Colorado, I have received no word from the Colorado Secretary of State's office about publishing information on an LLC registration in either our newspapers or any other national publication. Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Mon Nov 15 20:01:26 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 15:01:26 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? In-Reply-To: <3E86A9F3DC676742B192213CC4E9D4A266BB17EA@PDC-MAIL02.jwllp.com> References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> <3E86A9F3DC676742B192213CC4E9D4A266BB17EA@PDC-MAIL02.jwllp.com> Message-ID: <31AE1F81-D4CE-4E11-A0EB-D6282F38E409@mac.com> Ah, no wonder why I couldn't find that in the stat'es resources. Do you have any idea where I can check to see if laws like that apply in my state, because the state resources only talk about the formation statute. Thanks, Jorge On Nov 15, 2010, at 2:10 PM, Farber, Randy wrote: > Its not always the registration rules that apply. In Texas, in a sole proprietorship changes to an entity, then an advertisement needs to be published. This is a misc. law and not in the registration/formation statute. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:50 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? > > Hi George: > > Wouldn't the rules differ from state to state? In some countries, registration of a company is centralized; as far as I know, it is not so in the United States! > > I'd suggest you call the agency responsible for company/trade name registration in your state of residence to find out what their new rules. > Here in Colorado, I have received no word from the Colorado Secretary of State's office about publishing information on an LLC registration in either our newspapers or any other national publication. > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From rfarber at jw.com Mon Nov 15 20:08:34 2010 From: rfarber at jw.com (Farber, Randy) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:08:34 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? In-Reply-To: <31AE1F81-D4CE-4E11-A0EB-D6282F38E409@mac.com> References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> <3E86A9F3DC676742B192213CC4E9D4A266BB17EA@PDC-MAIL02.jwllp.com> <31AE1F81-D4CE-4E11-A0EB-D6282F38E409@mac.com> Message-ID: <3E86A9F3DC676742B192213CC4E9D4A266BB187B@PDC-MAIL02.jwllp.com> Each state is different, so I don't know where to look in your state. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jorge Paez Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 2:01 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? Ah, no wonder why I couldn't find that in the stat'es resources. Do you have any idea where I can check to see if laws like that apply in my state, because the state resources only talk about the formation statute. Thanks, Jorge On Nov 15, 2010, at 2:10 PM, Farber, Randy wrote: > Its not always the registration rules that apply. In Texas, in a sole proprietorship changes to an entity, then an advertisement needs to be published. This is a misc. law and not in the registration/formation statute. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:50 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? > > Hi George: > > Wouldn't the rules differ from state to state? In some countries, registration of a company is centralized; as far as I know, it is not so in the United States! > > I'd suggest you call the agency responsible for company/trade name registration in your state of residence to find out what their new rules. > Here in Colorado, I have received no word from the Colorado Secretary of State's office about publishing information on an LLC registration in either our newspapers or any other national publication. > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw > .com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%4 > 0mac.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rfarber%40jw.com From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Nov 15 22:32:07 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:32:07 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Suggest an Attorney for the Lawyer Spotlight, American Bar Association Message-ID: >From the ABA Commission on mental and Physical Disability law Link: http://new.abanet.org/disability/Pages/spotlight_suggest.aspx Text: Suggest an Attorney for the Lawyer Spotlight Do you know a lawyer with a disability who is an asset to the profession? If so, we would like to hear about it! The CMPDL, each month, highlights an attorney with a disability who has demonstrated great legal skill and talent. These individuals are role models and leaders within the legal community. Those considered for the Lawyer Spotlight must fill out a questionnaire and complete a brief interview. Self-nominations are allowed. If you know someone who should be given the Spotlight, please fill out the form below: Name of nominee: Nominee's organization: Nominee's position/title: Nominee's e-mail address: Nominee's daytime phone: Why should this individual receive the spotlight? (200 words or less, please) Your name: Your phone or e-mail: Can we reveal your identity to the nominee? Yes No From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Mon Nov 15 23:31:35 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:31:35 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind advocates allege Penn State services not blind friendly, Philadelphia Inquirer, November 13 2010 Message-ID: Link: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/20101113_Blind_advocates_allege_Penn_State_services_not_blind_friendly.html Text: Blind advocates allege Penn State services not blind friendly By Robert Moran Inquirer Staff Writer A national advocacy group for the blind has called for an investigation of alleged "pervasive and ongoing discrimination" at Pennsylvania State University in the availability of technology-based services for blind students and faculty. The National Federation of the Blind sent a seven-page complaint letter dated Friday to the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights, alleging that Penn State is violating the Americans with Disabilities Act. "Penn State's persistent failure to abide by the law has resulted in gratuitously denying its blind students and faculty equal access to information and thereby to an equal-education opportunity," the complaint states. It is the first such comprehensive complaint filed by the federation against a publicly funded university, group spokesman Chris Danielson said. "Penn State is certainly not out of the ordinary," Danielson said, adding that his group hoped the complaint spurs changes at other schools. Annemarie Mountz, a Penn State spokeswoman, said the university could not comment on the complaint because officials had not yet reviewed its claims. "Issues of equity and accessibility are immensely important, and we take them very seriously," Mountz said in an e-mail, adding later: "It is Penn State's policy not to discriminate against qualified persons with disabilities in its admissions policies and procedures or its educational programs, services, and activities." In the complaint, the federation alleges that the university's online library catalog is not fully accessible for blind students. University websites, including for the Office of Disability Services, are not fully accessible for the blind, the federation claims. Course-management software, which allows students and professors to interact online and perform course-related functions, also "is almost completely inaccessible to blind users," the complaint says. Blind faculty members must rely on the assistance of a sighted person to use "smart" podiums that interface with laptop computers, the complaint says. There is only one ATM on the main campus with audio output that a blind student could use with their identification cards, which can be used as debit cards through a program with PNC Bank, the federation alleges, adding that the PNC website is "nearly inaccessible" for the blind. Danielson explained that the blind can access websites through software that reads and describes what is on a Web page. But the websites described in the complaint don't work correctly with the software, he said. "This technology is not inherently inaccessible," he said. "This isn't something the university can't fix. They've just gone about it incorrectly." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact staff writer Robert Moran at 215-854-5983 or bmoran at phillynews.com. From undergod14 at gmail.com Mon Nov 15 23:50:41 2010 From: undergod14 at gmail.com (Nick Bennett) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 18:50:41 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Hello everyone Message-ID: <2653d25a1be6ee4fa66d86e4a5ba0ed9@nickbennettdell> My name is Nicholas Bennett. I was just writing to ask how hard is it to go threw the law school? Do you need a masters degree in this practice. How many years is this? And what is your roles in defending a person? See I've wanted to be a lawyer and I was just wondering how much it pays per year. Please write back soon. Thanks Nicholas Bennett Ps, happy holidays From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 16 00:00:39 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 18:00:39 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] Hello everyone References: <2653d25a1be6ee4fa66d86e4a5ba0ed9@nickbennettdell> Message-ID: <32DFA6D9A87E4B7B9A03ADAF3A2F09C4@GPD945> these are all very good questions. I will pass on some information that my unckle, a crown prosicuter said to me "if you're looking at Law for the money then don't bother." I'm not sure about other law schools, I gather it depends on the school just like it does for an undergraduate degree. The chairmen of the University of Saskatchewan's college of Law came and spoke with us and mentioned that school fees and textbooks you're looking at $10000. I'm not sure if that is per year or per semester as he said that textbooks are about $2000. I asked today what students take as I was interested if students with a disability have to take the same amount of courses as they do with sighted students. Up in Canada a full time load is 3 to 5 courses, for an undergrad degree. In law school first year students take 5 classes. I sure learnt a lot today about taking the LSats, qualifications required to getting in, ETC. As for defending someone it all depends on the case but from what I've observed being able to approach and ask the five w's and dig to get the person off with the least offence you need to put in a few hours. Correct me if I'm wrong lawyers that are on this list but a law degree isn't the type of job if you're looking to get out of the office monday to friday 8:30 AM to 4:30 PM. Talk to you later and welcoem to the list. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Bennett" To: Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 5:50 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Hello everyone My name is Nicholas Bennett. I was just writing to ask how hard is it to go threw the law school? Do you need a masters degree in this practice. How many years is this? And what is your roles in defending a person? See I've wanted to be a lawyer and I was just wondering how much it pays per year. Please write back soon. Thanks Nicholas Bennett Ps, happy holidays _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Nov 16 00:19:50 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 18:19:50 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Student E-rent Pilot Project Message-ID: VGhpcyBtYXkgYmUgIG9mIGludGVyZXN0IHRvIGxhdyBzdHVkZW50cy4NCg0KRnJvbTogQ01QREwn cyBEaXNhYmlsaXR5IERpc2N1c3Npb24gRG9ja2V0ICgzRCkgW21haWx0bzpDTVBETC0zREBNQUlM LkFCQU5FVC5PUkddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBMaXNzbmVyLCBTY290dA0KU2VudDogU3VuZGF5LCBO b3ZlbWJlciAxNCwgMjAxMCA2OjAzIEFNDQpUbzogQ01QREwtM0RATUFJTC5BQkFORVQuT1JHDQpT dWJqZWN0OiBTdHVkZW50IEUtcmVudCBQaWxvdCBQcm9qZWN0DQpJbXBvcnRhbmNlOiBMb3cNCg0K 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dCAzRCBvciB0aGUgQ01QREwgaW4gZ2VuZXJhbCwgcGxlYXNlIGNvbnRhY3QgV2lsbGlhbSBQaGVs YW4gYXQgcGhlbGFud0BzdGFmZi5hYmFuZXQub3JnLg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0gbmV4dCBwYXJ0 IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fDQpCb2QgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpCb2RAYWhlYWQtbGlzdHMub3JnDQpodHRwOi8vYWhl YWQtbGlzdHMub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYm9kX2FoZWFkLWxpc3RzLm9yZw0K From jsorozco at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 23:34:57 2010 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 18:34:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: LSAT survey- test-takers receiving accommodations (Dec. 1) Message-ID: <06FBBEA9172C4569A9BB65FAC764BD20@Rufus> Subject: LSAT survey- test-takers receiving accommodations (Dec. 1) Hello- As some of you may know, I am conducting a survey of LSAT takers who received disability-related accommodations on the exam. The original message appears below. Since we originally circulated the survey, we've improved the access and also created a question specific to flagged scores. The new format should work better and will give us data about people who received accommodations in general (and were not "flagged") and those who received accommodations related to timing (and were flagged). Feel free to check it out: http://tinyurl.com/37ehvd4 We need more people to take the survey by December 1st. My original message appears below and I thank you for taking the survey or distributing it to your networks. Thanks again, Carrie From dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 18 15:09:38 2010 From: dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net (dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 09:09:38 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Message-ID: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan From emyska at charter.net Thu Nov 18 19:10:01 2010 From: emyska at charter.net (Elizabeth Myska) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:10:01 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> Message-ID: <004901cb8754$336fd200$9a4f7600$@net> Do 2 out of 3 count? I am a legally blind attorney in MA. I was diagnosed with RP in 2005 and deemed legally blind in 2007. I do feel underemployed since being deemed legally blind, but have returned to school for my Master of Laws in a different practice area, hoping to reinvent myself. Because my spouse is already receiving SSDI as a result of a neuromuscular disease, I am loathe to cap my income and receive disability. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 10:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/emyska%40charter.n et From kgilbride at dralegal.org Thu Nov 18 19:56:02 2010 From: kgilbride at dralegal.org (Karla Gilbride) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 11:56:02 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Interested in speaking with blind law students Message-ID: <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE21508@draexchange.dralegal.com> Apologies if you are receiving this message for a second time. Please pass the following message along to any other listservs or networks where it may reach blind law students or potential Bar takers. Disability Rights Advocates is interested in speaking with students who plan to take the Bar exam of any state within the next two to three years. Whether you are a third-year law student preparing to take the Bar in a few months or a 1l just beginning your studies, we would like to talk with you about what accommodations you use in your law studies and on law school exams and about what accommodations you intend to request for the Bar exam. Please contact Karla Gilbride at kgilbride at dralegal.org or by phone at 510-665-8644. Thank you for helping us to better understand the needs of blind law students. Sincerely, Karla Gilbride Karla Gilbride Staff Attorney Disability Rights Advocates 2001 Center Street, Third Floor Berkeley, California 94704-1204 510-665-8644 ext. 117 (Tel) 510-665-8716 (TTY) 510-665-8511 (Fax) kgilbride at dralegal.org STATEMENT OF CONFIDENTIALITY The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the addressee. This information may also be legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or at (510) 665-8644 or (510) 665-8716 (TTY) and delete the message and its attachments, if any. From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Thu Nov 18 20:16:18 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 12:16:18 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> Message-ID: <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Thu Nov 18 20:22:02 2010 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 13:22:02 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E768@EVS02.central.pima.gov> I've often wondered about this myself, as I didn't hit the statutorily blind level until a couple of years ago. However, there is a prosecutor in the County Attorney's Office here who has been blind since birth. Also, one of my classmates was already statutorily blind (RP)by the time we were in school, and a lady in the class ahead of us was totally blind due to rheumatoid arthritis. As far as I know, both of these individuals are also employed in the legal profession. Granted, that's not many, but there is at least a glimmer of hope... -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2010 1:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov From kgilbride at dralegal.org Thu Nov 18 20:47:59 2010 From: kgilbride at dralegal.org (Karla Gilbride) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 12:47:59 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> Message-ID: <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> James, I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind attorneys are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off the top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), and I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should chat further off-list about your specific concerns. Best, Karla Gilbride -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr alegal.org From pattichang at att.net Thu Nov 18 21:36:14 2010 From: pattichang at att.net (Patti Chang) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:36:14 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> Message-ID: <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net> I know of five in Chicago. Patti S. Gregory Chang Sent from my I Phone On Nov 18, 2010, at 3:16 PM, "James Weisberg" wrote: > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pattichang%40att.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 18 21:50:47 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 13:50:47 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> Message-ID: <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From bspiry at comcast.net Thu Nov 18 22:16:33 2010 From: bspiry at comcast.net (Bill Spiry) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:16:33 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <000101cb876e$45dee920$d19cbb60$@net> As am I. Bill Spiry J.D. Candidate 2012 University of Oregon School of Law -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 1:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et From joramsey at cox.net Thu Nov 18 22:39:28 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 17:39:28 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <4BD690EA3FD041858177AAD81A10B8DB@noneeb869fea9a> Hello Dennis: I too am puzzled by his statement. I am a blind lawyer and in private practice here in Florida. If we as blind people follow this kind of logic, we would all still be living in nursing homes or even worse. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From dravant at ameritech.net Thu Nov 18 23:04:45 2010 From: dravant at ameritech.net (denise avant) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 15:04:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net> Message-ID: <353229.94256.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> hi, there are several blind attorneys not only in Chicago but throughout the united states, who are successfully practicing law either in the private sector or with various local, state and federal government agencies. These lawyers went through law school using alternative techniques, such as using Braille, adaptive equipment and readers. Using these same techniques, these  lawyers took and passed the bar examination. Using these same techniques, these lawyers have been successful in their legal career. so don't think for one minute being blind is any hinderance to becoming a successful practicing attorney. --- On Thu, 11/18/10, Patti Chang wrote: From: Patti Chang Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 3:36 PM I know of five in Chicago. Patti S. Gregory Chang Sent from my I Phone On Nov 18, 2010, at 3:16 PM, "James Weisberg" wrote: > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment.  I would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely.  FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1  blind or statutorily blind; > 2  unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3  receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you.  Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pattichang%40att.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritech.net From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Thu Nov 18 23:55:10 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 15:55:10 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Karla Gilbride Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind attorneys are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off the top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), and I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should chat further off-list about your specific concerns. Best, Karla Gilbride -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr alegal.org _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Thu Nov 18 23:58:12 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 15:58:12 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net> Message-ID: <81A04AB63C404AE68798909797AABF95@Blind> Five more!! Wait I'm changing my opinion. I hope those considering law as a profession on this list serve are catching all the low numbers. Would still love to know how many of this large group lost sight AFTEER they were employed?? -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patti Chang Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 1:36 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I know of five in Chicago. Patti S. Gregory Chang Sent from my I Phone On Nov 18, 2010, at 3:16 PM, "James Weisberg" wrote: > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pattichang%40att.n et _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From joramsey at cox.net Fri Nov 19 00:00:16 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 19:00:16 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: I guess many of us on the list are exceptions and I certainly do not come from money. Are you saying that you are a top tier Berkeley Grad? If so, maybe you aren't putting forth the effort to practice law. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:55 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Karla Gilbride Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind attorneys are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off the top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), and I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should chat further off-list about your specific concerns. Best, Karla Gilbride -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr alegal.org _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 00:02:50 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:02:50 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <7B84437EB8954248855237CAA859AC8A@Blind> Been there, done that, and the legal profession is not as progressive as they like to claim. Remember, intent is hard to prove so a hiring attorney can, and will usually, claim anything business appropriate like "I can't hire you because I need someone available to take filings to the court on a moments notice and they obviously need to be able to drive." How are you going to prove the proffered basis for you not being hired is not pretextual?? You can't, and this actually happened to me AFTER I had been given a job offer as I learned quickly to go to interviews without my cane!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 1:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 00:05:02 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:05:02 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <000101cb876e$45dee920$d19cbb60$@net> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> <000101cb876e$45dee920$d19cbb60$@net> Message-ID: Anyone is welcome to contact me, a blind attorney who has been practicing in four states since 98 with any questions. 760--832-6804. And I am truly sorry Bill for what you are about to discover. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bill Spiry Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 2:17 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys As am I. Bill Spiry J.D. Candidate 2012 University of Oregon School of Law -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 1:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/bspiry%40comcast.n et _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 00:07:12 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:07:12 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <4BD690EA3FD041858177AAD81A10B8DB@noneeb869fea9a> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server> <4BD690EA3FD041858177AAD81A10B8DB@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <2A8BEEA58F9F41598A4AEDFAE6E6981F@Blind> Interesting John: I too just last year was practicing in Boca doing immigration work. Let me ask you this, were you blind before or after you received you first job? Are you a solo? Curious. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 2:39 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Hello Dennis: I too am puzzled by his statement. I am a blind lawyer and in private practice here in Florida. If we as blind people follow this kind of logic, we would all still be living in nursing homes or even worse. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 00:09:54 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:09:54 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <353229.94256.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net> <353229.94256.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CF989B73C474D8895024D8A58726FA6@Blind> I agree one-hundred percent. I have been successful unless you quantify success by being able to get off disability. But I thought that was the purpose of putting oneself through a long arduous program of education! Yes of course the way to go for people like us is government jobs, but other than that the numbers bare out my pessimism no? -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of denise avant Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:05 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys hi, there are several blind attorneys not only in Chicago but throughout the united states, who are successfully practicing law either in the private sector or with various local, state and federal government agencies. These lawyers went through law school using alternative techniques, such as using Braille, adaptive equipment and readers. Using these same techniques, these  lawyers took and passed the bar examination. Using these same techniques, these lawyers have been successful in their legal career. so don't think for one minute being blind is any hinderance to becoming a successful practicing attorney. --- On Thu, 11/18/10, Patti Chang wrote: From: Patti Chang Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 3:36 PM I know of five in Chicago. Patti S. Gregory Chang Sent from my I Phone On Nov 18, 2010, at 3:16 PM, "James Weisberg" wrote: > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment.  I would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely.  FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1  blind or statutorily blind; > 2  unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3  receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you.  Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pattichang%40att.n et _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritec h.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 00:15:06 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:15:06 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: <7C8FEADCFFF24F43AC0907C20FC54FE9@Blind> How's "Supervising Attorney" for a Berkeley clinic, Pro Bono work in Southern Florida before the immigration court at Krome detention center, Superior Court in Cali a few months back, also pro bono (all successful outcomes unfortunately people do not go to blind attorneys with money if they can go to sighted ones!) That's not my prejudice just my experience. I've litigated for over ten years, state, federal, administrative BS hearings and have been VERY successful . . . but I live on 1300/month in disability. Open and office on that and on top of that demand a deserved retainer! Not realistic. How's it sound now? Like I'm not putting forth the effort??? -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:00 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I guess many of us on the list are exceptions and I certainly do not come from money. Are you saying that you are a top tier Berkeley Grad? If so, maybe you aren't putting forth the effort to practice law. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:55 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Karla Gilbride Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind attorneys are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off the top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), and I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should chat further off-list about your specific concerns. Best, Karla Gilbride -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1 blind or statutorily blind; 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3 receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr alegal.org _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Fri Nov 19 00:31:46 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:31:46 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:59 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue (JMD) [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 3:23 PM To: Maurer, Patricia; 'nijc at aol.com'; 'nlove at opd.state.md.us'; 'nmcconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noryrp at cox.net'; 'nowaczej at staff.abanet.org'; 'nromulus at gmail.com'; 'ntb at boglechang.com'; 'nwpatton at law.stanford.edu'; 'nwright at lockelord.com'; 'ocaaba at cox.net'; 'omanager at lawyerscomm.org'; 'padilla at ailc-inc.org'; 'palsd at hotmail.com'; 'patel at fr.com'; 'pchanster at yahoo.com'; 'pchapman at koonz.com'; 'petricha at staff.abanet.org'; 'pgodar at fbtlaw.com'; 'pgrewal at daycasebeer.com'; Maurer, Patricia; 'pmorrison at state.wv.us'; 'poppy.johnston at unlv.edu'; 'president at abaw.org'; 'president at adc.org'; 'president at apaba-dc.org'; 'president at apabala.org'; 'president at blackwomenlawyersla.org'; 'president at dominicanbarassociation.org'; 'president at mabl.org'; 'president at msba.org'; 'president at phillybarrristers.org'; 'president at sabadc.org'; 'president at southasianbar.org'; 'rbreiter at law.miami.edu' Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA ANNOUNCEMENT NUMBER 11-SDFL-AUSA-02 (AUSA - TERM APPT) Announcement is open until filled. Date posted: 11-16-2010 * UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DISTRICT OF NEVADA ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY LAS VEGAS, NEVADA ANNOUNCEMENT # 11-NV-01-A OPENS: 11/15/2010 CLOSES: 11/29/2010 To receive consideration for this vacancy, resumes must be received by 5:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time on the closing date of this announcement. 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Date posted: 11-10-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT 11-WDTX-351238-AUSA-03A The closing date for this announcement is November 17, 2010. Date posted: 11-10-2010 * ATTORNEY-ADVISOR GS-905-14/15 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT NO. OIG-2010-91 WASHINGTON, DC Closing Date: December 20, 1010 Date posted: 11-10-2010 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From joramsey at cox.net Fri Nov 19 02:37:57 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 21:37:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <2A8BEEA58F9F41598A4AEDFAE6E6981F@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server><4BD690EA3FD041858177AAD81A10B8DB@noneeb869fea9a> <2A8BEEA58F9F41598A4AEDFAE6E6981F@Blind> Message-ID: <941E59C961C541EDA8CD51948DDEC239@noneeb869fea9a> I was blind before my first job and before entering law school. In fact, I went blind the summer before law school and had to learn to live as a blind man and learn to be a blind law student. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:07 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Interesting John: I too just last year was practicing in Boca doing immigration work. Let me ask you this, were you blind before or after you received you first job? Are you a solo? Curious. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 2:39 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Hello Dennis: I too am puzzled by his statement. I am a blind lawyer and in private practice here in Florida. If we as blind people follow this kind of logic, we would all still be living in nursing homes or even worse. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those > with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful > activity; and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 02:43:56 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:43:56 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <941E59C961C541EDA8CD51948DDEC239@noneeb869fea9a> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><002d01cb876a$a96765c0$6601a8c0@server><4BD690EA3FD041858177AAD81A10B8DB@noneeb869fea9a><2A8BEEA58F9F41598A4AEDFAE6E6981F@Blind> <941E59C961C541EDA8CD51948DDEC239@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <4FC78C4443684CF3B4DAE73AB7FB333E@Blind> Hey John: Same here basically, lost the sight as a high school drop out and then went on from there. Best~ -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:38 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I was blind before my first job and before entering law school. In fact, I went blind the summer before law school and had to learn to live as a blind man and learn to be a blind law student. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:07 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Interesting John: I too just last year was practicing in Boca doing immigration work. Let me ask you this, were you blind before or after you received you first job? Are you a solo? Curious. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 2:39 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Hello Dennis: I too am puzzled by his statement. I am a blind lawyer and in private practice here in Florida. If we as blind people follow this kind of logic, we would all still be living in nursing homes or even worse. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:51 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I am puzzled by your statement. Are you saying that people who are blind should not go to law school? If so, why are you making this statement? Please elaborate on your comment because I am not following your thinking here. Thanks, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those > with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful > activity; and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 19 02:56:07 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:56:07 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <7C8FEADCFFF24F43AC0907C20FC54FE9@Blind> Message-ID: <0f6301cb8795$512de430$6601a8c0@server> Hello James, Clearly you are frustrated, I fully understand that, and for anyone else to tell you that you should not be is judging you without knowing about your personal experiences. There is no question that there is tremendous discrimination in the legal field, because the law firms understand the discrimination laws and are expert at circumventing them. Regardless, this is the world in which we must function and try to succeed, and I think there is opportunity in the discrimination we are all encountering. One characteristic that I have noticed with successful people, is that they more often than not have created their own opportunities, by building on their own talents and limitations. When I am feeling discouraged, I try to remind myself about the employment possibilities which faced black attorneys such as Thurgood Marshal in the 1940's. Employment with large firms was not possible for these black attorneys regardless of how talented or bright they might have been. None the less, Thurgood Marshal did succeed, mostly by filing civil rights cases for blacks and helping to build the NAACP Legal Defense Fund into a formidable institution. My opinion is that most of the success that blacks enjoy today is a direct result of the work done by the Legal Defense Fund. As blind attorneys, we have that opportunity as well simply by following Thurgood Marshal's roadmap, if we would simply pool our talents and just do it. My personal opinion is that discrimination in both education and all areas of employment has become much worse for blind people following the passage of the ADA. The good news here, is that if there is to be any improvement in our lives it will be as a result of blind lawyers fighting for the civil rights of blind people. We unlike non lawyers, can force our opponents to deal with us, because we have the power to drag them into court, and when we succeed they will be paying our legal expenses. Another characteristic of successful people is that they will not take no for an answer and they never quit no matter how difficult the road ahead nor no matter how many doors are slammed in their faces. This kind of inner strength is very difficult to muster and maintain, particularly when there is no support system in place to help us get reenergized. Unfortunately as blind people we do not support one another and as a result we do not have such a support system to turn to. Instead when one of our blind brethren admits that he or she is having a problem related to blindness, they will be attacked, not supported. I am not aware of any other minority groups which do this. the attack chorus always sings the same self serving song, and the lyrics goes that the person in need of assistance is to blame and has not spent enough of their life learning blindness skills, which in my opinion translates into the silly notion that the blind person hasn't become sighted enough. The aspect of this which is most amusing to me, if amusement can be found at all, is that upon inspection, those leading the attack and singing the loudest, have usually accomplished almost nothing other than spending their time trying to become sighted using technology. My thinking is that as blind people we can either choose to accept the limitations which are inherent to blindness and become successful anyway, or we can spend all our waking hours trying to become "independent" by developing blindness skills in an effort to make us as close to being sighted as is possible using technology. If there are other lawyers on this list who feel similarly to me, please contact me off list. I would like to do something about our situation, by learning from the successes of other minorities. All of us who are blind should be clear that the problem we face as lawyers is that there is too much legal work to do, not that there is too little work. We are privileged to be lawyers, so let's take on the challenge. Let's find strength and success in friendship, support, and optimistic collective action. We are lawyers, we have power, so lets use it to help one another and all who are blind. Let's talk and see what we can do together. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > How's "Supervising Attorney" for a Berkeley clinic, Pro Bono work in > Southern Florida before the immigration court at Krome detention center, > Superior Court in Cali a few months back, also pro bono (all successful > outcomes unfortunately people do not go to blind attorneys with money if > they can go to sighted ones!) That's not my prejudice just my experience. > I've litigated for over ten years, state, federal, administrative BS > hearings and have been VERY successful . . . but I live on 1300/month in > disability. Open and office on that and on top of that demand a deserved > retainer! Not realistic. How's it sound now? Like I'm not putting forth > the effort??? > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of John Ramsey > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:00 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > I guess many of us on the list are exceptions and I certainly do not come > from money. Are you saying that you are a top tier Berkeley Grad? If so, > maybe you aren't putting forth the effort to practice law. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:55 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job > offers > despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low > numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to > discuss. > My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to > not > waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever > getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT > IS! > But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the > time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Karla Gilbride > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > James, > > I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind > attorneys > are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off > the > top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), > and > I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should > chat > further off-list about your specific concerns. > > Best, > Karla Gilbride > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. > rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr > alegal.org > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 03:12:45 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 19:12:45 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <0f6301cb8795$512de430$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><7C8FEADCFFF24F43AC0907C20FC54FE9@Blind> <0f6301cb8795$512de430$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <92976620071641CB997997A473C11365@Blind> You Dennis are an obviously insightful individual. I agree one-hundred percent with your post!! I have found that I have been able to litigate more than a hundred bench trials, a dozen jury trials and several matters on the state appellate level despite my peers prejudices. I even learned right away if I put retirement age women in the jury pool my yellow lab guide dog has more influence than any testimony I could possibly elicit!! FACT. I have always been very successful though will admit to the rare loss (a true benefit to being able to select your cases because you do pro bono work!). I currently am applying for government work and still maintain that is the place to search, the private sector is just too difficult to "roll the dice" on considering the cost and effort a law degree requires. Although I do have to admit I had opened my own practice after law school (you know where you charge client's for your services - found a perfect market; i.e., no attorneys for hours but alas it was all lost in a divorce!) Since then I'm Mr. Pro Bono . . . Sonny's distance cousin. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:56 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Hello James, Clearly you are frustrated, I fully understand that, and for anyone else to tell you that you should not be is judging you without knowing about your personal experiences. There is no question that there is tremendous discrimination in the legal field, because the law firms understand the discrimination laws and are expert at circumventing them. Regardless, this is the world in which we must function and try to succeed, and I think there is opportunity in the discrimination we are all encountering. One characteristic that I have noticed with successful people, is that they more often than not have created their own opportunities, by building on their own talents and limitations. When I am feeling discouraged, I try to remind myself about the employment possibilities which faced black attorneys such as Thurgood Marshal in the 1940's. Employment with large firms was not possible for these black attorneys regardless of how talented or bright they might have been. None the less, Thurgood Marshal did succeed, mostly by filing civil rights cases for blacks and helping to build the NAACP Legal Defense Fund into a formidable institution. My opinion is that most of the success that blacks enjoy today is a direct result of the work done by the Legal Defense Fund. As blind attorneys, we have that opportunity as well simply by following Thurgood Marshal's roadmap, if we would simply pool our talents and just do it. My personal opinion is that discrimination in both education and all areas of employment has become much worse for blind people following the passage of the ADA. The good news here, is that if there is to be any improvement in our lives it will be as a result of blind lawyers fighting for the civil rights of blind people. We unlike non lawyers, can force our opponents to deal with us, because we have the power to drag them into court, and when we succeed they will be paying our legal expenses. Another characteristic of successful people is that they will not take no for an answer and they never quit no matter how difficult the road ahead nor no matter how many doors are slammed in their faces. This kind of inner strength is very difficult to muster and maintain, particularly when there is no support system in place to help us get reenergized. Unfortunately as blind people we do not support one another and as a result we do not have such a support system to turn to. Instead when one of our blind brethren admits that he or she is having a problem related to blindness, they will be attacked, not supported. I am not aware of any other minority groups which do this. the attack chorus always sings the same self serving song, and the lyrics goes that the person in need of assistance is to blame and has not spent enough of their life learning blindness skills, which in my opinion translates into the silly notion that the blind person hasn't become sighted enough. The aspect of this which is most amusing to me, if amusement can be found at all, is that upon inspection, those leading the attack and singing the loudest, have usually accomplished almost nothing other than spending their time trying to become sighted using technology. My thinking is that as blind people we can either choose to accept the limitations which are inherent to blindness and become successful anyway, or we can spend all our waking hours trying to become "independent" by developing blindness skills in an effort to make us as close to being sighted as is possible using technology. If there are other lawyers on this list who feel similarly to me, please contact me off list. I would like to do something about our situation, by learning from the successes of other minorities. All of us who are blind should be clear that the problem we face as lawyers is that there is too much legal work to do, not that there is too little work. We are privileged to be lawyers, so let's take on the challenge. Let's find strength and success in friendship, support, and optimistic collective action. We are lawyers, we have power, so lets use it to help one another and all who are blind. Let's talk and see what we can do together. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > How's "Supervising Attorney" for a Berkeley clinic, Pro Bono work in > Southern Florida before the immigration court at Krome detention center, > Superior Court in Cali a few months back, also pro bono (all successful > outcomes unfortunately people do not go to blind attorneys with money if > they can go to sighted ones!) That's not my prejudice just my experience. > I've litigated for over ten years, state, federal, administrative BS > hearings and have been VERY successful . . . but I live on 1300/month in > disability. Open and office on that and on top of that demand a deserved > retainer! Not realistic. How's it sound now? Like I'm not putting forth > the effort??? > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of John Ramsey > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:00 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > I guess many of us on the list are exceptions and I certainly do not come > from money. Are you saying that you are a top tier Berkeley Grad? If so, > maybe you aren't putting forth the effort to practice law. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:55 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job > offers > despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low > numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to > discuss. > My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to > not > waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever > getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT > IS! > But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the > time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Karla Gilbride > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > James, > > I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind > attorneys > are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off > the > top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), > and > I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should > chat > further off-list about your specific concerns. > > Best, > Karla Gilbride > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. > rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr > alegal.org > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From dandrews at visi.com Fri Nov 19 10:25:37 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 04:25:37 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: James: I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind persons in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my evidence is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind lawyers, who are working. From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good right now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the bad economy penalty. Dave At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. From mfhurley at optonline.net Fri Nov 19 15:13:34 2010 From: mfhurley at optonline.net (mfhurley at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:13:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <353229.94256.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net> <353229.94256.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What is the percentage of blind lawyers in paying postions to the total pool of blind lawyers trying to get jobs and can't? Citing a few examples here and there is not really taking into account how hard it is for a disabled person to get a position. ----- Original Message ----- From: denise avant Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:05 pm Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > hi, > there are several blind attorneys not only in Chicago but > throughout the united states, who are successfully practicing > law either in the private sector or with various local, state > and federal government agencies. These lawyers went through law > school using alternative techniques, such as using Braille, > adaptive equipment and readers. Using these same techniques, > these lawyers took and passed the bar examination. Using these > same techniques, these lawyers have been successful in their > legal career. so don't think for one minute being blind is any > hinderance to becoming a successful practicing attorney. > > --- On Thu, 11/18/10, Patti Chang wrote: > > > From: Patti Chang > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 3:36 PM > > > I know of five in Chicago. > > Patti S. Gregory Chang > Sent from my I Phone > > On Nov 18, 2010, at 3:16 PM, "James Weisberg" > law at dc.rr.com> wrote: > > > Curious: > > > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED > at all???? > > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to > employment. I would > > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those > with vision > > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw- > bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial > gainful activity; > > and > > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > > > Dan > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi- > law%40dc.rr.c> om > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pattichang%40att.net > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritech.net > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonline.net > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mfhurley.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 101 bytes Desc: Card for URL: From mfhurley at optonline.net Fri Nov 19 15:28:44 2010 From: mfhurley at optonline.net (mfhurley at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:28:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with Dennis' post wholeheartedly. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > James: > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > persons > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > evidence > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > lawyers, > who are working. > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > right > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > bad > economy penalty. > > Dave > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > ZERO job offers > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > extremely low > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > to discuss. > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > career is to not > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > than ever > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > THE WAY IT IS! > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > invest the > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonline.net > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mfhurley.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 101 bytes Desc: Card for URL: From dravant at ameritech.net Fri Nov 19 16:02:32 2010 From: dravant at ameritech.net (denise avant) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:02:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <683934.81560.qm@web81903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello James, I have been blind since birth. like so many others, i wanted to practice law because i genuinely like it. of course one needs to make a living whether you do private work or work for the government. Bby seeking to practice, we can hope to change people's opinions about what blind people can do. This was tue of African Americans and women, and other minorities in the country. we cannot set aside our ambitions because of discriminatory practices. After all, there are employers out there willing to take a chance and hire blind lawyers. and if you don't pursue your goal, you will definitely never find them and they will not find you either. --- On Thu, 11/18/10, James Weisberg wrote: From: James Weisberg Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 5:55 PM Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever getting an offer of employment.  Now if you come from money, forget everything I have said and just open your own firm!  THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! But there are always EXCEPTIONS.  I personally wouldn't want to invest the time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Karla Gilbride Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind attorneys are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off the top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), and I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should chat further off-list about your specific concerns. Best, Karla Gilbride -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment.  I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely.  FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1  blind or statutorily blind; 2  unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3  receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you.  Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr alegal.org _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritech.net From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 16:36:35 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:36:35 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: I think I agree with your belief concerning other markets for blind persons. Having said that I recognize this fact as a reason for seeking a profession not requiring such an investment in sweat and money to earn your credentials. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 2:26 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James: I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind persons in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my evidence is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind lawyers, who are working. From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good right now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the bad economy penalty. Dave At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest the >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 16:37:27 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:37:27 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <20FE6026-2ED6-4149-8711-AC13A5A24CF8@att.net><353229.94256.qm@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Agreed! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:14 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Cc: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys What is the percentage of blind lawyers in paying postions to the total pool of blind lawyers trying to get jobs and can't? Citing a few examples here and there is not really taking into account how hard it is for a disabled person to get a position. ----- Original Message ----- From: denise avant Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:05 pm Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > hi, > there are several blind attorneys not only in Chicago but > throughout the united states, who are successfully practicing > law either in the private sector or with various local, state > and federal government agencies. These lawyers went through law > school using alternative techniques, such as using Braille, > adaptive equipment and readers. Using these same techniques, > these lawyers took and passed the bar examination. Using these > same techniques, these lawyers have been successful in their > legal career. so don't think for one minute being blind is any > hinderance to becoming a successful practicing attorney. > > --- On Thu, 11/18/10, Patti Chang wrote: > > > From: Patti Chang > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 3:36 PM > > > I know of five in Chicago. > > Patti S. Gregory Chang > Sent from my I Phone > > On Nov 18, 2010, at 3:16 PM, "James Weisberg" > law at dc.rr.com> wrote: > > > Curious: > > > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED > at all???? > > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to > employment. I would > > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those > with vision > > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw- > bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial > gainful activity; > > and > > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > > > Dan > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi- > law%40dc.rr.c> om > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/pattichang%40att.n et > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritec h.net > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 16:48:09 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:48:09 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who are blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless they can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because my point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I have been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers who were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to "astronomical." *smile* -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with Dennis' post wholeheartedly. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > James: > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > persons > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > evidence > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > lawyers, > who are working. > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > right > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > bad > economy penalty. > > Dave > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > ZERO job offers > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > extremely low > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > to discuss. > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > career is to not > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > than ever > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > THE WAY IT IS! > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > invest the > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 16:49:41 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:49:41 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <683934.81560.qm@web81903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <683934.81560.qm@web81903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <061FFCC9014A4CA5BAD227FF8A92FE07@Blind> Hello Denise: Please read my last post and you will see you have mistaken or I have mis-communicated my point. Regards~ -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of denise avant Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:03 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Hello James, I have been blind since birth. like so many others, i wanted to practice law because i genuinely like it. of course one needs to make a living whether you do private work or work for the government. Bby seeking to practice, we can hope to change people's opinions about what blind people can do. This was tue of African Americans and women, and other minorities in the country. we cannot set aside our ambitions because of discriminatory practices. After all, there are employers out there willing to take a chance and hire blind lawyers. and if you don't pursue your goal, you will definitely never find them and they will not find you either. --- On Thu, 11/18/10, James Weisberg wrote: From: James Weisberg Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 5:55 PM Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job offers despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to discuss. My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to not waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever getting an offer of employment.  Now if you come from money, forget everything I have said and just open your own firm!  THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! But there are always EXCEPTIONS.  I personally wouldn't want to invest the time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Karla Gilbride Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James, I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind attorneys are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off the top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), and I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should chat further off-list about your specific concerns. Best, Karla Gilbride -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment.  I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely.  FACT! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Are there any attorneys out there who are: 1  blind or statutorily blind; 2  unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful activity; and 3  receiving disability as a result. If so, I would appreciate hearing from you.  Thanks. Dan _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr alegal.org _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dravant%40ameritec h.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 19 17:26:57 2010 From: goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net (Sarah Clark) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:26:57 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> Message-ID: <004801cb880f$1c7640f0$6701a8c0@computer2> I think a crucial element is whether a student utilizes the opportunity to take summer associate positions while in law school. The blind lawyers that I know of (who were blind before law school) had jobs as summer associates, which led to job offers from those firms at the conclusion of the summer. Even if you do a summer job on a volunteer basis, as I know one person in particular did, if you show your worth during the summer, you will likely end up with a job offer at the end. Of course, the quality of the law school you attend is a tremendous factor -- the better the law school, and the better your grades in that all important first year, the better the summer positions available. My husband, who attended a top 5 law school, said that all students he knew of received offers of employment at the conclusion of their summer associate jobs, and if you didn't, it reflected poorly on you. Sarah Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who > are > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless > they > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my > calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because > my > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I > have > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers > who > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to > "astronomical." > *smile* > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree > with > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Andrews > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > >> James: >> >> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >> persons >> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >> evidence >> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >> lawyers, >> who are working. >> >> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >> right >> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >> bad >> economy penalty. >> >> Dave >> >> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >> ZERO job offers >> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >> extremely low >> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >> to discuss. >> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >> career is to not >> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >> than ever >> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >> THE WAY IT IS! >> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >> invest the >> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > ne.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcglobal.net From mfhurley at optonline.net Fri Nov 19 18:32:20 2010 From: mfhurley at optonline.net (mfhurley at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 18:32:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <004801cb880f$1c7640f0$6701a8c0@computer2> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <004801cb880f$1c7640f0$6701a8c0@computer2> Message-ID: and I know of a blind law student that was offered a summer associate position and not offered a position after law school....the reason being that the summer associate position was a "token position" to assuage or rather show the firm's benevolence.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Clark Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > I think a crucial element is whether a student utilizes the > opportunity to > take summer associate positions while in law school. The blind > lawyers that > I know of (who were blind before law school) had jobs as summer > associates, > which led to job offers from those firms at the conclusion of > the summer. > Even if you do a summer job on a volunteer basis, as I know one > person in > particular did, if you show your worth during the summer, you > will likely > end up with a job offer at the end. Of course, the quality of > the law > school you attend is a tremendous factor -- the better the law > school, and > the better your grades in that all important first year, the > better the > summer positions available. My husband, who attended a top 5 > law school, > said that all students he knew of received offers of employment > at the > conclusion of their summer associate jobs, and if you didn't, it > reflected > poorly on you. > > Sarah Clark > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > >I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments > below again now, > > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had > been employed > > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from > those who > > are > > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a > rep unless > > they > > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind > lawyers in my > > calculation if they lost their sight after they were > established because > > my > > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I > know as I > > have > > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort > for the > > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means > go for > > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the > numbers on blind > > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed > blind lawyers > > who > > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to > > "astronomical." > > *smile* > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw- > bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. > I agree > > with > > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David Andrews > > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > >> James: > >> > >> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > >> persons > >> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > >> evidence > >> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > >> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > >> lawyers, > >> who are working. > >> > >> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > >> right > >> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > >> bad > >> economy penalty. > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > >> ZERO job offers > >> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > >> extremely low > >> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > >> to discuss. > >> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > >> career is to not > >> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance > statistically,>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the > way to law class > >> than ever > >> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > >> THE WAY IT IS! > >> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > >> invest the > >> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an > exception.>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info for blindlaw: > >> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli> ne.net > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonline.net > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mfhurley.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 101 bytes Desc: Card for URL: From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 20:29:10 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:29:10 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <004801cb880f$1c7640f0$6701a8c0@computer2> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <004801cb880f$1c7640f0$6701a8c0@computer2> Message-ID: <862CF348F90D45B3A3E159C6FA1DB4B9@Blind> My experience also. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Clark Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 9:27 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I think a crucial element is whether a student utilizes the opportunity to take summer associate positions while in law school. The blind lawyers that I know of (who were blind before law school) had jobs as summer associates, which led to job offers from those firms at the conclusion of the summer. Even if you do a summer job on a volunteer basis, as I know one person in particular did, if you show your worth during the summer, you will likely end up with a job offer at the end. Of course, the quality of the law school you attend is a tremendous factor -- the better the law school, and the better your grades in that all important first year, the better the summer positions available. My husband, who attended a top 5 law school, said that all students he knew of received offers of employment at the conclusion of their summer associate jobs, and if you didn't, it reflected poorly on you. Sarah Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who > are > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless > they > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my > calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because > my > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I > have > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers > who > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to > "astronomical." > *smile* > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree > with > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Andrews > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > >> James: >> >> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >> persons >> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >> evidence >> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >> lawyers, >> who are working. >> >> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >> right >> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >> bad >> economy penalty. >> >> Dave >> >> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >> ZERO job offers >> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >> extremely low >> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >> to discuss. >> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >> career is to not >> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >> than ever >> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >> THE WAY IT IS! >> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >> invest the >> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > ne.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgl obal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Fri Nov 19 20:30:22 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:30:22 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><004801cb880f$1c7640f0$6701a8c0@computer2> Message-ID: Not surprising. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of person could drive such a "scheme." -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:32 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys and I know of a blind law student that was offered a summer associate position and not offered a position after law school....the reason being that the summer associate position was a "token position" to assuage or rather show the firm's benevolence.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Clark Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > I think a crucial element is whether a student utilizes the > opportunity to > take summer associate positions while in law school. The blind > lawyers that > I know of (who were blind before law school) had jobs as summer > associates, > which led to job offers from those firms at the conclusion of > the summer. > Even if you do a summer job on a volunteer basis, as I know one > person in > particular did, if you show your worth during the summer, you > will likely > end up with a job offer at the end. Of course, the quality of > the law > school you attend is a tremendous factor -- the better the law > school, and > the better your grades in that all important first year, the > better the > summer positions available. My husband, who attended a top 5 > law school, > said that all students he knew of received offers of employment > at the > conclusion of their summer associate jobs, and if you didn't, it > reflected > poorly on you. > > Sarah Clark > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > >I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments > below again now, > > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had > been employed > > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from > those who > > are > > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a > rep unless > > they > > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind > lawyers in my > > calculation if they lost their sight after they were > established because > > my > > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I > know as I > > have > > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort > for the > > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means > go for > > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the > numbers on blind > > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed > blind lawyers > > who > > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to > > "astronomical." > > *smile* > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw- > bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. > I agree > > with > > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David Andrews > > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > >> James: > >> > >> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > >> persons > >> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > >> evidence > >> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > >> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > >> lawyers, > >> who are working. > >> > >> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > >> right > >> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > >> bad > >> economy penalty. > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > >> ZERO job offers > >> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > >> extremely low > >> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > >> to discuss. > >> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > >> career is to not > >> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance > statistically,>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the > way to law class > >> than ever > >> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > >> THE WAY IT IS! > >> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > >> invest the > >> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an > exception.>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> blindlaw mailing list > >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info for blindlaw: > >> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > ne.net > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > > blindlaw: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgl obal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Fri Nov 19 21:27:34 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:27:34 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> Message-ID: James: I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on target. I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I now practice for the federal government. I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at private firms. I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers of employment to practice in the private sector. Noel Nightingale -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who are blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless they can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because my point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I have been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers who were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to "astronomical." *smile* -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with Dennis' post wholeheartedly. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > James: > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > persons > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > evidence > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > lawyers, > who are working. > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > right > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > bad > economy penalty. > > Dave > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > ZERO job offers > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > extremely low > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > to discuss. > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > career is to not > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > than ever > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > THE WAY IT IS! > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > invest the > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sat Nov 20 01:56:35 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 17:56:35 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> Message-ID: <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the "lucky" one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as I believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and law degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview with the Fed myself! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James: I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on target. I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I now practice for the federal government. I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at private firms. I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers of employment to practice in the private sector. Noel Nightingale -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who are blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless they can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because my point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I have been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers who were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to "astronomical." *smile* -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with Dennis' post wholeheartedly. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > James: > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > persons > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > evidence > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > lawyers, > who are working. > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > right > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > bad > economy penalty. > > Dave > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > ZERO job offers > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > extremely low > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > to discuss. > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > career is to not > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > than ever > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > THE WAY IT IS! > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > invest the > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 0ed.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From agtolentino at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 20:13:49 2010 From: agtolentino at gmail.com (Aser Tolentino) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 12:13:49 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability though many in my class have found it difficult to find work. On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg wrote: > My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort > of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the > "lucky" > one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as > I > believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and law > degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview with > the Fed myself! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > James: > > I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on > target. > > I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a > nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work > during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I > now > practice for the federal government. > > I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at > private firms. > > I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience > tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers > of employment to practice in the private sector. > > Noel Nightingale > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who > are > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless > they > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my > calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because my > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I > have > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers > who > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to "astronomical." > *smile* > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Andrews > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > James: > > > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > > persons > > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > > evidence > > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > > lawyers, > > who are working. > > > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > > right > > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > > bad > > economy penalty. > > > > Dave > > > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > > ZERO job offers > > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > > extremely low > > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > > to discuss. > > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > > career is to not > > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > > than ever > > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > > THE WAY IT IS! > > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > > invest the > > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info for blindlaw: > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > ne.net > > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 > 0ed.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 20 21:24:16 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:24:16 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> Hello Aser, Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I > learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability > though > many in my class have found it difficult to find work. > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg > wrote: > >> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >> effort >> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >> "lucky" >> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >> as >> I >> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >> law >> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >> with >> the Fed myself! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> James: >> >> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >> target. >> >> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >> now >> practice for the federal government. >> >> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >> private firms. >> >> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >> offers >> of employment to practice in the private sector. >> >> Noel Nightingale >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >> now, >> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >> employed >> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >> are >> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >> they >> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >> my >> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >> have >> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >> blind >> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >> who >> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >> "astronomical." >> *smile* >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >> with >> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: David Andrews >> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >> > James: >> > >> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >> > persons >> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >> > evidence >> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >> > lawyers, >> > who are working. >> > >> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >> > right >> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >> > bad >> > economy penalty. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >> > ZERO job offers >> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >> > extremely low >> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >> > to discuss. >> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >> > career is to not >> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >> > than ever >> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >> > THE WAY IT IS! >> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >> > invest the >> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > info for blindlaw: >> > >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >> ne.net >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >> 0ed.gov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sat Nov 20 21:50:43 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:50:43 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] (no subject) Message-ID: Congrats Aser! James W. Weisberg, Esq. Law Office of J. William Weisberg Palm Springs, California 92262 V: 760-832-6804 F: 888-841-1924 E-Mail: jimi-law at dc.rr.com Admitted in Wisconsin, Federal District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin, Federal District Court for the Northern District of Florida, and the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals Nationwide Practice Limited to Immigration Removal Defense & ADA Advocacy This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in this message. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message from your system. This exchange of information does not create an attorney-client relationship nor does it constitute legal advice. The Law Office of J. William Weisberg expects the recipient will independently evaluate this information in accordance with this disclaimer. From agtolentino at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 00:59:15 2010 From: agtolentino at gmail.com (Aser Tolentino) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 16:59:15 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: Hi Dennis, I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer positions. Best, Aser On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark wrote: > Hello Aser, > Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in > California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. > All the best, > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" > > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >> though >> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >> wrote: >> >> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> > James: >>> > >>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> > persons >>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> > evidence >>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> > lawyers, >>> > who are working. >>> > >>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> > right >>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> > bad >>> > economy penalty. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> > ZERO job offers >>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> > extremely low >>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> > to discuss. >>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> > career is to not >>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> > than ever >>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> > invest the >>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > info for blindlaw: >>> > >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net< >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli%0Ane.net >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om< >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c%0Aom >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > From rumpole at roadrunner.com Sun Nov 21 15:19:57 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 10:19:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and do it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed at those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on the blind, much less blind lawyers. Everyone here has a valid point to make. I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 and your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges as put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in spite of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United States. There are times I doubt that premise. So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay transportation out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA if you can afford that kind of transportation. Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if you try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, lets hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal malpractice. Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS SGA regulations and not even know it until it is too late. How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are blind. To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their services for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have to put up with. Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under good conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those of you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to fix the depression that we are in. When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with that observation? So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously planning to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally forestall overall job availability on a national scale. This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that area as well. I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then again neither do the economists. My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out there and its going to stay that way for a while. If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that requires a lot of assistance to get a job. Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only to a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it that way is just kidding ourselves. Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and my wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment rate, and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the Republicans or the independents. Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted counterpart? Of course it is. Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. Solving the problem is the real issue. Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? "The views expressed in this email are only mine" Ross ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Hi Dennis, > I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my > experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With > budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer > positions. > > Best, > Aser > > On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark > wrote: > >> Hello Aser, >> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >> All the best, >> Dennis >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >> > > >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>> though >>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>> wrote: >>> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>> effort >>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>> "lucky" >>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>>> as >>>> I >>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>>> law >>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>> with >>>> the Fed myself! >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>> target. >>>> >>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>> I >>>> now >>>> practice for the federal government. >>>> >>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>>> at >>>> private firms. >>>> >>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>> offers >>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>> >>>> Noel Nightingale >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>> now, >>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>> employed >>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>> who >>>> are >>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>>> they >>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>>> my >>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>> because >>>> my >>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>>> have >>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>> blind >>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>> lawyers >>>> who >>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>> "astronomical." >>>> *smile* >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>> with >>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>> > James: >>>> > >>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>> > persons >>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>> > evidence >>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>> > lawyers, >>>> > who are working. >>>> > >>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>> > right >>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>> > bad >>>> > economy penalty. >>>> > >>>> > Dave >>>> > >>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>> > ZERO job offers >>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>> > extremely low >>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>> > to discuss. >>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>> > career is to not >>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>> > than ever >>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>> > invest the >>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>> > >exception. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>> ne.net< >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli%0Ane.net >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>> 0ed.gov >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> om< >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c%0Aom >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 07:34:00 From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 16:10:27 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 09:10:27 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> Ross, I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough about the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. That said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started this all, in case some have forgotten: Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with vision issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say that these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal profession altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome the very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. It's another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, given the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I think the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the response has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but it's not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an appropriate response to me. If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the belief that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue that there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult for blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt you will find any disagreement on this list. Best, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a > glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to > the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. > The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of > laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and do > it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed at > those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. > If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among > qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel > for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on the > blind, much less blind lawyers. > Everyone here has a valid point to make. > I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. > Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 and > your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges as > put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in spite > of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United > States. > There are times I doubt that premise. > So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. > Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it > can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE > requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in > states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for > doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for > Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to > your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay transportation > out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA > if you can afford that kind of transportation. > Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if you > try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, lets > hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because > after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw > subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal > malpractice. > Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? > Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work > deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? > I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're > going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of > some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST > report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there > skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS SGA > regulations and not even know it until it is too late. > How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? > The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are > blind. > To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular > situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for > years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their services > for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a > "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have to > put up with. > Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so > don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they > work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. > Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all > of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. > It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under good > conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those of > you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on > top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I > mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. > Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to > fix the depression that we are in. > When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with that > observation? > So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to > cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand > federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not > withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the > number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously planning > to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally forestall > overall job availability on a national scale. > This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local > governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. > then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that > area as well. > I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then > again neither do the economists. > My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out > there and its going to stay that way for a while. > If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be > viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy > blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that > requires a lot of assistance to get a job. > Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only to > a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it > that way is just kidding ourselves. > Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. > That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My > take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and my > wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, > our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. > Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment rate, > and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the > State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the > Republicans or the independents. > Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. > So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted > counterpart? > Of course it is. > Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. > Solving the problem is the real issue. > Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? > "The views expressed in this email are only mine" > > Ross > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Hi Dennis, >> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >> positions. >> >> Best, >> Aser >> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Aser, >>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>> All the best, >>> Dennis >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>> >> > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>> though >>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>> effort >>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>> "lucky" >>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>> sector >>>>> as >>>>> I >>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>> and >>>>> law >>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>>> with >>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>>> target. >>>>> >>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>>> I >>>>> now >>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>> >>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>>>> at >>>>> private firms. >>>>> >>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>> experience >>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>> offers >>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>> >>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>>> now, >>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>> employed >>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>> who >>>>> are >>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>> unless >>>>> they >>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>>>> my >>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>> because >>>>> my >>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as >>>>> I >>>>> have >>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>> blind >>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>> lawyers >>>>> who >>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>> "astronomical." >>>>> *smile* >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>>> with >>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> >>>>> > James: >>>>> > >>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> > persons >>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> > evidence >>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> > lawyers, >>>>> > who are working. >>>>> > >>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> > right >>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> > bad >>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>> > >>>>> > Dave >>>>> > >>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> > extremely low >>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> > to discuss. >>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> > career is to not >>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> > than ever >>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> > invest the >>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>> > >exception. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>> ne.net< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli%0Ane.net >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>> om< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c%0Aom >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 > 07:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 16:46:30 2010 From: carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com (Kate Carroll) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 11:46:30 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: Congratulations, Aser!.(on the Bar of course, not the unemployment ;) On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Aser Tolentino wrote: > I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I > learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability > though > many in my class have found it difficult to find work. > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg > wrote: > > > My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the > effort > > of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the > > "lucky" > > one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector > as > > I > > believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and > law > > degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview > with > > the Fed myself! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel > > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > James: > > > > I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on > > target. > > > > I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a > > nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work > > during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I > > now > > practice for the federal government. > > > > I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at > > private firms. > > > > I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience > > tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive > offers > > of employment to practice in the private sector. > > > > Noel Nightingale > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > Behalf Of James Weisberg > > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM > > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again > now, > > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been > employed > > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who > > are > > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless > > they > > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my > > calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because > my > > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I > > have > > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the > > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for > > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on > blind > > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers > > who > > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to > "astronomical." > > *smile* > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree > with > > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David Andrews > > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > > > > > James: > > > > > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > > > persons > > > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > > > evidence > > > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > > > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > > > lawyers, > > > who are working. > > > > > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > > > right > > > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > > > bad > > > economy penalty. > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > > > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > > > ZERO job offers > > > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > > > extremely low > > > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > > > to discuss. > > > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > > > career is to not > > > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > > > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > > > than ever > > > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > > > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > > > THE WAY IT IS! > > > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > > > invest the > > > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > blindlaw mailing list > > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > > info for blindlaw: > > > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > > ne.net< > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli%0Ane.net > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 > > 0ed.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > > om< > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c%0Aom > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindlaw mailing list > > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindlaw: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > -- Kathryn CARROLL St. John's University College of Law 2013 631-521-3018 From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 19:04:10 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 11:04:10 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> <7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> Message-ID: <7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I was NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law student about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for you in case you just missed it: Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of obtaining the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law school or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that the blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer it does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" both financially and time-wise. The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is capable of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" responses to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own "issues?" Respectfully~ -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Ross, I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough about the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. That said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started this all, in case some have forgotten: Curious: 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I would suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with vision issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say that these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal profession altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome the very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. It's another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, given the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I think the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the response has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but it's not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an appropriate response to me. If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the belief that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue that there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult for blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt you will find any disagreement on this list. Best, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a > glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to > the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. > The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of > laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and do > it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed at > those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. > If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among > qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel > for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on the > blind, much less blind lawyers. > Everyone here has a valid point to make. > I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. > Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 and > your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges as > put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in spite > of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United > States. > There are times I doubt that premise. > So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. > Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it > can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE > requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in > states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for > doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for > Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to > your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay transportation > out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA > if you can afford that kind of transportation. > Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if you > try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, lets > hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because > after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw > subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal > malpractice. > Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? > Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work > deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? > I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're > going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of > some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST > report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there > skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS SGA > regulations and not even know it until it is too late. > How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? > The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are > blind. > To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular > situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for > years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their services > for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a > "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have to > put up with. > Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so > don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they > work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. > Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all > of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. > It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under good > conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those of > you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on > top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I > mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. > Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to > fix the depression that we are in. > When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with that > observation? > So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to > cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand > federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not > withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the > number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously planning > to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally forestall > overall job availability on a national scale. > This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local > governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. > then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that > area as well. > I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then > again neither do the economists. > My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out > there and its going to stay that way for a while. > If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be > viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy > blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that > requires a lot of assistance to get a job. > Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only to > a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it > that way is just kidding ourselves. > Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. > That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My > take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and my > wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, > our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. > Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment rate, > and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the > State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the > Republicans or the independents. > Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. > So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted > counterpart? > Of course it is. > Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. > Solving the problem is the real issue. > Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? > "The views expressed in this email are only mine" > > Ross > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Hi Dennis, >> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >> positions. >> >> Best, >> Aser >> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Aser, >>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>> All the best, >>> Dennis >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>> >> > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>> though >>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>> effort >>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>> "lucky" >>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>> sector >>>>> as >>>>> I >>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>> and >>>>> law >>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>>> with >>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>>> target. >>>>> >>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>>> I >>>>> now >>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>> >>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>>>> at >>>>> private firms. >>>>> >>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>> experience >>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>> offers >>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>> >>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>>> now, >>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>> employed >>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>> who >>>>> are >>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>> unless >>>>> they >>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>>>> my >>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>> because >>>>> my >>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as >>>>> I >>>>> have >>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>> blind >>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>> lawyers >>>>> who >>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>> "astronomical." >>>>> *smile* >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>>> with >>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> >>>>> > James: >>>>> > >>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> > persons >>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> > evidence >>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> > lawyers, >>>>> > who are working. >>>>> > >>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> > right >>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> > bad >>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>> > >>>>> > Dave >>>>> > >>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> > extremely low >>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> > to discuss. >>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> > career is to not >>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> > than ever >>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> > invest the >>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>> > >exception. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>> ne.net< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli %0Ane.net >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>> om< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c %0Aom >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn er.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 > 07:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 19:50:25 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:50:25 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server><7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> <7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> Message-ID: <939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken out of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, entirely within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were responding. It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is that assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm wrong, is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued that blind people ought to forego law school. In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses were to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession. Regards, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I was > NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law student > about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough > explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for you > in case you just missed it: > > Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of > obtaining > the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high > number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law > school > or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been > practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that > the > blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer > it > does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many > other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" both > financially and time-wise. > > The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is capable > of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" > responses > to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own > "issues?" > > Respectfully~ > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Marc Workman > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Ross, > > I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind > lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough about > the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would > claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. > That > said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with > what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started > this all, in case some have forgotten: > > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see > about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind > attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with > vision > issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all > kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say that > these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal > profession > > altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome > the > very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. > It's > > another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. > > Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, > given > the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I think > the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the response > has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. > Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but it's > not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind > people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an > appropriate response to me. > > If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the belief > that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue that > there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult for > blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt > you > will find any disagreement on this list. > > Best, > > Marc > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to >> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of >> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >> do > >> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >> at > >> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel >> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >> the > >> blind, much less blind lawyers. >> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >> and > >> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >> as > >> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >> spite > >> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >> States. >> There are times I doubt that premise. >> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in >> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for >> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to >> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >> transportation > >> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA >> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >> you > >> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >> lets > >> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because >> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >> malpractice. >> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? >> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work >> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of >> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST >> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >> SGA > >> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >> blind. >> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for >> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their services >> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >> to > >> put up with. >> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all >> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >> good > >> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >> of > >> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to >> fix the depression that we are in. >> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >> that > >> observation? >> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the >> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >> planning > >> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >> forestall > >> overall job availability on a national scale. >> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >> area as well. >> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then >> again neither do the economists. >> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out >> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy >> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >> to > >> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >> that way is just kidding ourselves. >> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. >> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >> my > >> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, >> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >> rate, > >> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >> Republicans or the independents. >> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted >> counterpart? >> Of course it is. >> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >> Solving the problem is the real issue. >> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >> >> Ross >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aser Tolentino" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Hi Dennis, >>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>> positions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Aser >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Aser, >>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>> All the best, >>>> Dennis >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>> >>> > >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as >>>> I >>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>>> though >>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>> effort >>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>> sector >>>>>> as >>>>>> I >>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>> and >>>>>> law >>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>> interview >>>>>> with >>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> James: >>>>>> >>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>> on >>>>>> target. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>> work >>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>>>> I >>>>>> now >>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>> jobs > >>>>>> at >>>>>> private firms. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>> experience >>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>> offers >>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>> >>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>> again >>>>>> now, >>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>> employed >>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>>> who >>>>>> are >>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>> unless >>>>>> they >>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>> in > >>>>>> my >>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>> because >>>>>> my >>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as >>>>>> I >>>>>> have >>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>>> blind >>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>> lawyers >>>>>> who >>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>> *smile* >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>> agree >>>>>> with >>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> >>>>>> > James: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>> > persons >>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>> > evidence >>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>> > right >>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>> > bad >>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Dave >>>>>> > >>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>> > than ever >>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>> > invest the >>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > %0Ane.net >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>> om< >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > %0Aom >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai > l.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc > global.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn > er.com >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Sun Nov 21 20:19:16 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:19:16 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <234B07FC38B94501847A90D8C89D383F@StevePC> What is a good guess on the employment rate for blind attorneys? However, there are just too many attorneys period!! Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a > glind > attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to the > scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. > The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of > laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and do > it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed at > those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. > If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among > qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel > for > the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on the > blind, much less blind lawyers. > Everyone here has a valid point to make. > I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. > Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 and > your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges as > put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in spite > of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United > States. > There are times I doubt that premise. > So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. > Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it > can > get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE > requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in > states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for > doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for > Pete's > sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to your > immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay transportation out > of > your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA if you > can > afford that kind of transportation. > Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if you > try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, lets > hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because > after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw > subscription > to do your research so that you aren't committing legal malpractice. > Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? > Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work > deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? > I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're > going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of > some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST > report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there > skilled > in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS SGA > regulations and not even know it until it is too late. > How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? > The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are > blind. > To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular > situation > is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for years. > There > are those who were able to start volunteering their services for free > until > someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a "test run" being a > common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have to put up with. > Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so > don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they > work > for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. > Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all > of > you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. > It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under good > conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those of > you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on > top > of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I mean. > Its > rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. > Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to > fix the depression that we are in. > When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with that > observation? > So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to > cut > budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand federal > employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not > withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the > number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously planning > to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally forestall > overall job availability on a national scale. > This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local > governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. > then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that > area > as well. > I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then > again neither do the economists. > My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out > there and its going to stay that way for a while. > If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be > viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy > blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that > requires a lot of assistance to get a job. > Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only to > a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it > that > way is just kidding ourselves. > Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. > That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My > take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and my > wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, > our > tax rates can shame Massachusetts. > Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment rate, > and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the > State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the > Republicans or the independents. > Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. > So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted > counterpart? > Of course it is. > Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. > Solving the problem is the real issue. > Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? > "The views expressed in this email are only mine" > > Ross > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Hi Dennis, >> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >> positions. >> >> Best, >> Aser >> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Aser, >>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>> All the best, >>> Dennis >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>> >> > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>> though >>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>> effort >>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>> "lucky" >>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>> sector >>>>> as >>>>> I >>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>> and >>>>> law >>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>>> with >>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>>> target. >>>>> >>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>>> I >>>>> now >>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>> >>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>>>> at >>>>> private firms. >>>>> >>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>> experience >>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>> offers >>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>> >>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>>> now, >>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>> employed >>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>> who >>>>> are >>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>> unless >>>>> they >>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>>>> my >>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>> because >>>>> my >>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as >>>>> I >>>>> have >>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>> blind >>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>> lawyers >>>>> who >>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>> "astronomical." >>>>> *smile* >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>>> with >>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> >>>>> > James: >>>>> > >>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> > persons >>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> > evidence >>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> > lawyers, >>>>> > who are working. >>>>> > >>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> > right >>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> > bad >>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>> > >>>>> > Dave >>>>> > >>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> > extremely low >>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> > to discuss. >>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> > career is to not >>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> > than ever >>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> > invest the >>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>> > >exception. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>> ne.net< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli%0Ane.net >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>> om< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c%0Aom >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 > 07:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Sun Nov 21 20:21:45 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:21:45 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I > learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability > though > many in my class have found it difficult to find work. > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg > wrote: > >> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >> effort >> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >> "lucky" >> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >> as >> I >> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >> law >> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >> with >> the Fed myself! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> James: >> >> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >> target. >> >> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >> now >> practice for the federal government. >> >> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >> private firms. >> >> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >> offers >> of employment to practice in the private sector. >> >> Noel Nightingale >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >> now, >> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >> employed >> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >> are >> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >> they >> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >> my >> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >> have >> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >> blind >> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >> who >> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >> "astronomical." >> *smile* >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >> with >> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: David Andrews >> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >> > James: >> > >> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >> > persons >> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >> > evidence >> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >> > lawyers, >> > who are working. >> > >> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >> > right >> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >> > bad >> > economy penalty. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >> > ZERO job offers >> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >> > extremely low >> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >> > to discuss. >> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >> > career is to not >> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >> > than ever >> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >> > THE WAY IT IS! >> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >> > invest the >> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > info for blindlaw: >> > >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >> ne.net >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >> 0ed.gov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 From rumpole at roadrunner.com Sun Nov 21 20:28:52 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:28:52 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: Aser, keep at it and don't give up. And, as you can tell from all of these posts, "true lawyers" can, and will argue over anything and everything. Seriously, use your imagination and be professional at all times, sooner or later you will get employed, and you will no doubt be good at it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >>I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >> though >> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >> wrote: >> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> > James: >>> > >>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> > persons >>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> > evidence >>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> > lawyers, >>> > who are working. >>> > >>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> > right >>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> > bad >>> > economy penalty. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> > ZERO job offers >>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> > extremely low >>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> > to discuss. >>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> > career is to not >>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> > than ever >>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> > invest the >>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > info for blindlaw: >>> > >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 20:31:54 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:31:54 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server><7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC><7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> <939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> Message-ID: Marc: You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But what you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the one that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment vs. the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was attempting to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be swell for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken out of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, entirely within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were responding. It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is that assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm wrong, is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued that blind people ought to forego law school. In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses were to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession. Regards, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I was > NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law student > about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough > explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for you > in case you just missed it: > > Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of > obtaining > the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high > number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law > school > or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been > practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that > the > blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer > it > does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many > other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" both > financially and time-wise. > > The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is capable > of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" > responses > to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own > "issues?" > > Respectfully~ > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Marc Workman > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Ross, > > I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind > lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough about > the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would > claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. > That > said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with > what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started > this all, in case some have forgotten: > > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see > about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind > attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with > vision > issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all > kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say that > these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal > profession > > altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome > the > very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. > It's > > another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. > > Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, > given > the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I think > the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the response > has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. > Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but it's > not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind > people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an > appropriate response to me. > > If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the belief > that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue that > there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult for > blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt > you > will find any disagreement on this list. > > Best, > > Marc > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to >> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of >> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >> do > >> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >> at > >> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel >> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >> the > >> blind, much less blind lawyers. >> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >> and > >> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >> as > >> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >> spite > >> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >> States. >> There are times I doubt that premise. >> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in >> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for >> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to >> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >> transportation > >> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA >> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >> you > >> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >> lets > >> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because >> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >> malpractice. >> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? >> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work >> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of >> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST >> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >> SGA > >> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >> blind. >> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for >> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their services >> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >> to > >> put up with. >> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all >> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >> good > >> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >> of > >> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to >> fix the depression that we are in. >> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >> that > >> observation? >> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the >> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >> planning > >> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >> forestall > >> overall job availability on a national scale. >> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >> area as well. >> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then >> again neither do the economists. >> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out >> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy >> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >> to > >> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >> that way is just kidding ourselves. >> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. >> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >> my > >> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, >> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >> rate, > >> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >> Republicans or the independents. >> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted >> counterpart? >> Of course it is. >> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >> Solving the problem is the real issue. >> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >> >> Ross >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aser Tolentino" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Hi Dennis, >>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>> positions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Aser >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Aser, >>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>> All the best, >>>> Dennis >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>> >>> > >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as >>>> I >>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>>> though >>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>> effort >>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>> sector >>>>>> as >>>>>> I >>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>> and >>>>>> law >>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>> interview >>>>>> with >>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> James: >>>>>> >>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>> on >>>>>> target. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>> work >>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>>>> I >>>>>> now >>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>> jobs > >>>>>> at >>>>>> private firms. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>> experience >>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>> offers >>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>> >>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>> again >>>>>> now, >>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>> employed >>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>>> who >>>>>> are >>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>> unless >>>>>> they >>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>> in > >>>>>> my >>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>> because >>>>>> my >>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as >>>>>> I >>>>>> have >>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>>> blind >>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>> lawyers >>>>>> who >>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>> *smile* >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>> agree >>>>>> with >>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>> >>>>>> > James: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>> > persons >>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>> > evidence >>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>> > right >>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>> > bad >>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Dave >>>>>> > >>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>> > than ever >>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>> > invest the >>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > %0Ane.net >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>> om< >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > %0Aom >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai > l.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc > global.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai > l.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn > er.com >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 20:33:06 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:33:06 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: <6DB09D66C17A4287BBDFFEC8069EE618@Blind> I feel you Steve! Good sense of humor!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:22 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I > learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability > though > many in my class have found it difficult to find work. > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg > wrote: > >> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >> effort >> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >> "lucky" >> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >> as >> I >> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >> law >> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >> with >> the Fed myself! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> James: >> >> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >> target. >> >> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >> now >> practice for the federal government. >> >> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >> private firms. >> >> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >> offers >> of employment to practice in the private sector. >> >> Noel Nightingale >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >> now, >> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >> employed >> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >> are >> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >> they >> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >> my >> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >> have >> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >> blind >> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >> who >> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >> "astronomical." >> *smile* >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >> with >> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: David Andrews >> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >> > James: >> > >> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >> > persons >> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >> > evidence >> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >> > lawyers, >> > who are working. >> > >> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >> > right >> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >> > bad >> > economy penalty. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >> > ZERO job offers >> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >> > extremely low >> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >> > to discuss. >> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >> > career is to not >> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >> > than ever >> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >> > THE WAY IT IS! >> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >> > invest the >> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > blindlaw mailing list >> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> > info for blindlaw: >> > >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >> ne.net >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >> 0ed.gov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com >> > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 20:32:25 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:32:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <234B07FC38B94501847A90D8C89D383F@StevePC> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> <234B07FC38B94501847A90D8C89D383F@StevePC> Message-ID: <920D3FB86DCA4E8193B611D912BD442D@Blind> That's a fact Steve!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve P. Deeley Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:19 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys What is a good guess on the employment rate for blind attorneys? However, there are just too many attorneys period!! Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a > glind > attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to the > scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. > The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of > laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and do > it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed at > those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. > If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among > qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel > for > the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on the > blind, much less blind lawyers. > Everyone here has a valid point to make. > I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. > Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 and > your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges as > put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in spite > of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United > States. > There are times I doubt that premise. > So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. > Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it > can > get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE > requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in > states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for > doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for > Pete's > sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to your > immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay transportation out > of > your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA if you > can > afford that kind of transportation. > Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if you > try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, lets > hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because > after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw > subscription > to do your research so that you aren't committing legal malpractice. > Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? > Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work > deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? > I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're > going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of > some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST > report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there > skilled > in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS SGA > regulations and not even know it until it is too late. > How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? > The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are > blind. > To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular > situation > is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for years. > There > are those who were able to start volunteering their services for free > until > someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a "test run" being a > common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have to put up with. > Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so > don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they > work > for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. > Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all > of > you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. > It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under good > conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those of > you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on > top > of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I mean. > Its > rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. > Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to > fix the depression that we are in. > When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with that > observation? > So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to > cut > budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand federal > employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not > withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the > number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously planning > to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally forestall > overall job availability on a national scale. > This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local > governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. > then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that > area > as well. > I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then > again neither do the economists. > My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out > there and its going to stay that way for a while. > If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be > viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy > blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that > requires a lot of assistance to get a job. > Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only to > a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it > that > way is just kidding ourselves. > Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. > That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My > take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and my > wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, > our > tax rates can shame Massachusetts. > Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment rate, > and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the > State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the > Republicans or the independents. > Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. > So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted > counterpart? > Of course it is. > Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. > Solving the problem is the real issue. > Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? > "The views expressed in this email are only mine" > > Ross > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Hi Dennis, >> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >> positions. >> >> Best, >> Aser >> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Aser, >>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in >>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>> All the best, >>> Dennis >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>> >> > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>> though >>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>> effort >>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>> "lucky" >>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>> sector >>>>> as >>>>> I >>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>> and >>>>> law >>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>>> with >>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>>> target. >>>>> >>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>>> I >>>>> now >>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>> >>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>>>> at >>>>> private firms. >>>>> >>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>> experience >>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>> offers >>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>> >>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>>> now, >>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>> employed >>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>> who >>>>> are >>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>> unless >>>>> they >>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>>>> my >>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>> because >>>>> my >>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as >>>>> I >>>>> have >>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>> blind >>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>> lawyers >>>>> who >>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>> "astronomical." >>>>> *smile* >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>>> with >>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>> >>>>> > James: >>>>> > >>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> > persons >>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> > evidence >>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> > lawyers, >>>>> > who are working. >>>>> > >>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> > right >>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> > bad >>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>> > >>>>> > Dave >>>>> > >>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> > extremely low >>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> > to discuss. >>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> > career is to not >>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> > than ever >>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> > invest the >>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>> > >exception. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>> ne.net< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli %0Ane.net >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>> om< >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c %0Aom >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn er.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 > 07:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 20:34:21 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:34:21 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: <9B9B323CC33D4F2EB9887074C5373F86@Blind> Employ yourself Acer and go out and get some clients!! Start pro bono if you have to as I did. You can do it just don't wait around for a job offer!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ross Doerr Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:29 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Aser, keep at it and don't give up. And, as you can tell from all of these posts, "true lawyers" can, and will argue over anything and everything. Seriously, use your imagination and be professional at all times, sooner or later you will get employed, and you will no doubt be good at it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >>I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >> though >> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >> wrote: >> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> > James: >>> > >>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> > persons >>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> > evidence >>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> > lawyers, >>> > who are working. >>> > >>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> > right >>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> > bad >>> > economy penalty. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> > ZERO job offers >>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> > extremely low >>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> > to discuss. >>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> > career is to not >>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> > than ever >>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> > invest the >>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > info for blindlaw: >>> > >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40in sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn er.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From jsorozco at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 20:44:10 2010 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:44:10 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <9B9B323CC33D4F2EB9887074C5373F86@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <9B9B323CC33D4F2EB9887074C5373F86@Blind> Message-ID: Man, I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but it would appear that if one did less posting on this list and did more job searching, a job offer might be more achievable! Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:34 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Employ yourself Acer and go out and get some clients!! Start pro bono if you have to as I did. You can do it just don't wait around for a job offer!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ross Doerr Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:29 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Aser, keep at it and don't give up. And, as you can tell from all of these posts, "true lawyers" can, and will argue over anything and everything. Seriously, use your imagination and be professional at all times, sooner or later you will get employed, and you will no doubt be good at it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >>I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >> though >> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >> wrote: >> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> > James: >>> > >>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> > persons >>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> > evidence >>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> > lawyers, >>> > who are working. >>> > >>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> > right >>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> > bad >>> > economy penalty. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> > ZERO job offers >>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> > extremely low >>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> > to discuss. >>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> > career is to not >>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> > than ever >>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> > invest the >>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > info for blindlaw: >>> > >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurl ey%40optonli >>> ne.net >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.n ightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-l aw%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtole ntino%40gmai l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep .deeley%40in sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpol e%40roadrunn er.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-l aw%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com From jimi-law at dc.rr.com Sun Nov 21 20:59:18 2010 From: jimi-law at dc.rr.com (James Weisberg) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:59:18 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><9B9B323CC33D4F2EB9887074C5373F86@Blind> Message-ID: <5804409282274174826866BAB840924B@Blind> Joe: I manage to have a pro bono career AND I have over fifteen applications in with the Fed at this time. I guess I am an overachieve! That last line was a joke for those on the list without a sense of humor. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:44 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Man, I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but it would appear that if one did less posting on this list and did more job searching, a job offer might be more achievable! Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:34 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Employ yourself Acer and go out and get some clients!! Start pro bono if you have to as I did. You can do it just don't wait around for a job offer!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ross Doerr Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:29 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Aser, keep at it and don't give up. And, as you can tell from all of these posts, "true lawyers" can, and will argue over anything and everything. Seriously, use your imagination and be professional at all times, sooner or later you will get employed, and you will no doubt be good at it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >>I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >> though >> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >> wrote: >> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> > James: >>> > >>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> > persons >>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> > evidence >>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> > lawyers, >>> > who are working. >>> > >>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> > right >>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> > bad >>> > economy penalty. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> > ZERO job offers >>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> > extremely low >>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> > to discuss. >>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> > career is to not >>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> > than ever >>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> > invest the >>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > info for blindlaw: >>> > >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurl ey%40optonli >>> ne.net >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.n ightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-l aw%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtole ntino%40gmai l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep .deeley%40in sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpol e%40roadrunn er.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-l aw%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 21:22:13 2010 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:22:13 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server><7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC><7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind><939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> Message-ID: Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, and we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. James said, Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with well researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received nearly as much disagreement. Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, or at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less reasonable, harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because it is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented based on their and others's experiences. In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at attaining adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until that evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against the experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say that blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if we're just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to eliminate the barriers they face. Best, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Weisberg" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Marc: > > You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people > should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were > saying > that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But what > you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the > one > that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment vs. > the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was attempting > to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be swell > for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not make > sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of > whether you hold the same opinions? > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Marc Workman > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken out > of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that > you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original > post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts > responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you > responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. > > I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but > nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind > lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, > *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, > entirely > > within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were > responding. > > It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly > didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did > say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is > that > assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm wrong, > is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued > that > blind people ought to forego law school. > > In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses > were > > to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for > blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your > comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind > lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the > legal > > profession. > > Regards, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I was >> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law student >> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >> you >> in case you just missed it: >> >> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >> obtaining >> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >> school >> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >> the >> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer >> it >> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" both >> financially and time-wise. >> >> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >> capable >> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >> responses >> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >> "issues?" >> >> Respectfully~ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Marc Workman >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Ross, >> >> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough about >> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >> That >> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with >> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started >> this all, in case some have forgotten: >> >> Curious: >> >> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? >> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >> would >> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision >> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >> >> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind >> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >> vision >> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all >> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say that >> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >> profession >> >> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >> the >> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >> It's >> >> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >> >> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >> given >> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >> think >> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >> response >> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >> it's >> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >> appropriate response to me. >> >> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >> belief >> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue that >> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult for >> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >> you >> will find any disagreement on this list. >> >> Best, >> >> Marc >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ross Doerr" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to >>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>> of >>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >>> do >> >>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >>> at >> >>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel >>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>> the >> >>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>> and >> >>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >>> as >> >>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>> spite >> >>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>> States. >>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>> in >>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>> for >>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>> to >>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>> transportation >> >>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA >>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>> you >> >>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>> lets >> >>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>> because >>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>> malpractice. >>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere? >>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work >>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of >>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST >>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>> SGA >> >>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>> blind. >>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for >>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>> services >>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >>> to >> >>> put up with. >>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all >>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>> good >> >>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >>> of >> >>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>> to >>> fix the depression that we are in. >>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>> that >> >>> observation? >>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the >>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>> planning >> >>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>> forestall >> >>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >>> area as well. >>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>> then >>> again neither do the economists. >>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out >>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy >>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >>> to >> >>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september. >>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >>> my >> >>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine, >>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>> rate, >> >>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>> Republicans or the independents. >>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>> sighted >>> counterpart? >>> Of course it is. >>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>> >>> Ross >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> Hi Dennis, >>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>> positions. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Aser >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>> in >>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>> All the best, >>>>> Dennis >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as >>>>> I >>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >>>>>> though >>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>>> effort >>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>> sector >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> law >>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>> interview >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> target. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>> work >>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>> years. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> now >>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>> jobs >> >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>> experience >>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>>> offers >>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>> again >>>>>>> now, >>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>> employed >>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>> unless >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>>> in >> >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>> agree >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>> > right >>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >> %0Ane.net >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>> om< >>>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> %0Aom >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >> global.net >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >> l.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >> er.com >>> >>> >>> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: 11/20/10 >>> 07:34:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From rumpole at roadrunner.com Sun Nov 21 21:42:48 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 16:42:48 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server><7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC><7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind><939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> Message-ID: Mark, you're a philosopher? Hey, someone help him get into law school before he gets away, . He can argue with the best of us. For Pete's sake don't let him waste away his life in some university philosophy department at low pay. He'll just end up with a full beard and smoking a pipe like my old philosophy proff. All kidding aside, the underlying issue here, repeat "underlying issue" is the unemployment rate among dedicated blind professionals who have chosen the legal profession as their life work, or as work, not necessarily for life. We're blind and we don't fit the "norm" for employment strategies that seem to work pretty good for our sighted counterparts. So what are "we" going to do about it? Can we agree that the usual BlindLaw "misquoted" and "mischaracterized" and "Misunderstood my meaning" arguments are pretty well spent and have gotten us the usual results. a clogged up list serve and nothing of substance to show for it. Lets try to set up some regional groups to strategize jobs and successful tactics in our respective areas of the country. How about pressuring bar associations to be pro-active for this particular type of diversity? How about trying to rope in some of the real big-shot law firms, I mean the movers and shakers who really dominate specified areas of law in our respective states to put some action behind their well-advertised standards of how much they really care about people out there. Thats my suggestion as a starting point. Who has another idea to add to, or replace it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Workman" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, and > we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. > > James said, > Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these > beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? > > I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. > Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. > > When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people > should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The > emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it > is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and > hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind > lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with > well > researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up > plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before > entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one > that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received > nearly as much disagreement. > > Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, or > at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school > entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less > reasonable, > harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because it > is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented > based on their and others's experiences. > > In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at > least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I > doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of > blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at > attaining > adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in > comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until that > evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against the > experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say > that > blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if we're > just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly > held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is > difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and > blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to > eliminate the barriers they face. > > Best, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Marc: >> >> You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people >> should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were >> saying >> that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But >> what >> you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the >> one >> that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment >> vs. >> the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was >> attempting >> to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be swell >> for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not make >> sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of >> whether you hold the same opinions? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Marc Workman >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken >> out >> of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that >> you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original >> post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts >> responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you >> responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. >> >> I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but >> nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind >> lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, >> *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, >> entirely >> >> within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were >> responding. >> >> It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly >> didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did >> say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is >> that >> assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm >> wrong, >> is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued >> that >> blind people ought to forego law school. >> >> In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses >> were >> >> to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for >> blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your >> comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind >> lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the >> legal >> >> profession. >> >> Regards, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Weisberg" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I >>> was >>> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law >>> student >>> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >>> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >>> you >>> in case you just missed it: >>> >>> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >>> obtaining >>> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >>> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >>> school >>> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >>> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >>> the >>> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer >>> it >>> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >>> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" >>> both >>> financially and time-wise. >>> >>> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >>> capable >>> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >>> responses >>> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >>> "issues?" >>> >>> Respectfully~ >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Ross, >>> >>> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >>> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough >>> about >>> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >>> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >>> That >>> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with >>> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started >>> this all, in case some have forgotten: >>> >>> Curious: >>> >>> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at >>> all???? >>> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >>> would >>> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with >>> vision >>> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >>> >>> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >>> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind >>> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >>> vision >>> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all >>> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say >>> that >>> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >>> profession >>> >>> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >>> the >>> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >>> It's >>> >>> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >>> >>> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >>> given >>> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >>> think >>> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >>> response >>> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >>> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >>> it's >>> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >>> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >>> appropriate response to me. >>> >>> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >>> belief >>> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue >>> that >>> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult >>> for >>> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >>> you >>> will find any disagreement on this list. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ross Doerr" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts >>>> to >>>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>>> of >>>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >>>> do >>> >>>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >>>> at >>> >>>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >>>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a >>>> feel >>>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>>> the >>> >>>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>>> and >>> >>>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >>>> as >>> >>>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>>> spite >>> >>>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>>> States. >>>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >>>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >>>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>>> in >>>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>>> for >>>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>>> to >>>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>>> transportation >>> >>>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding >>>> SGA >>>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>>> you >>> >>>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>>> lets >>> >>>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>>> because >>>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>>> malpractice. >>>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library >>>> anywhere? >>>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial >>>> work >>>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >>>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >>>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation >>>> of >>>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you >>>> MUST >>>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>>> SGA >>> >>>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>>> blind. >>>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice >>>> for >>>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>>> services >>>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >>>> to >>> >>>> put up with. >>>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >>>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >>>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to >>>> all >>>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>>> good >>> >>>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >>>> of >>> >>>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >>>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>>> to >>>> fix the depression that we are in. >>>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>>> that >>> >>>> observation? >>>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >>>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >>>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase >>>> the >>>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>>> planning >>> >>>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>>> forestall >>> >>>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >>>> area as well. >>>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>>> then >>>> again neither do the economists. >>>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good >>>> out >>>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >>>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are >>>> actualy >>>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >>>> to >>> >>>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >>>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of >>>> september. >>>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >>>> my >>> >>>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in >>>> Maine, >>>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>>> rate, >>> >>>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >>>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>>> Republicans or the independents. >>>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>>> sighted >>>> counterpart? >>>> Of course it is. >>>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>>> >>>> Ross >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Dennis, >>>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>>> positions. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Aser >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>>> in >>>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>>> All the best, >>>>>> Dennis >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, >>>>>> as >>>>>> I >>>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of >>>>>>> disability >>>>>>> though >>>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>>>> effort >>>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>>> sector >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>>> interview >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> target. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>>> jobs >>> >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>>>> offers >>>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>>> employed >>>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>>>> in >>> >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>>> > right >>>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> %0Ane.net >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>>> om< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> %0Aom >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >>> global.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >>> er.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: >>>> 11/20/10 >>>> 07:34:00 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Sun Nov 21 21:51:42 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:51:42 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> <7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> <7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> <939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> Message-ID: <03C2F1A822054FCBAB3709D452E48DF0@GPD945> I've never understood Philosophy. Mark if you can assist me in understanding philosophy, might be my thinking about things, I've never understood it. I tried taking Philosophhy 150 however dropped it after failing the midterm horribly. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Mark, you're a philosopher? Hey, someone help him get into law school before he gets away, . He can argue with the best of us. For Pete's sake don't let him waste away his life in some university philosophy department at low pay. He'll just end up with a full beard and smoking a pipe like my old philosophy proff. All kidding aside, the underlying issue here, repeat "underlying issue" is the unemployment rate among dedicated blind professionals who have chosen the legal profession as their life work, or as work, not necessarily for life. We're blind and we don't fit the "norm" for employment strategies that seem to work pretty good for our sighted counterparts. So what are "we" going to do about it? Can we agree that the usual BlindLaw "misquoted" and "mischaracterized" and "Misunderstood my meaning" arguments are pretty well spent and have gotten us the usual results. a clogged up list serve and nothing of substance to show for it. Lets try to set up some regional groups to strategize jobs and successful tactics in our respective areas of the country. How about pressuring bar associations to be pro-active for this particular type of diversity? How about trying to rope in some of the real big-shot law firms, I mean the movers and shakers who really dominate specified areas of law in our respective states to put some action behind their well-advertised standards of how much they really care about people out there. Thats my suggestion as a starting point. Who has another idea to add to, or replace it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Workman" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, and > we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. > > James said, > Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these > beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? > > I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. > Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. > > When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people > should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The > emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it > is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and > hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind > lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with > well > researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up > plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before > entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one > that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received > nearly as much disagreement. > > Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, or > at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school > entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less > reasonable, > harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because it > is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented > based on their and others's experiences. > > In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at > least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I > doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of > blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at > attaining > adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in > comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until that > evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against the > experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say > that > blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if we're > just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly > held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is > difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and > blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to > eliminate the barriers they face. > > Best, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Marc: >> >> You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people >> should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were >> saying >> that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But >> what >> you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the >> one >> that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment >> vs. >> the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was >> attempting >> to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be swell >> for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not make >> sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of >> whether you hold the same opinions? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Marc Workman >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken >> out >> of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that >> you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original >> post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts >> responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you >> responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. >> >> I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but >> nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind >> lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, >> *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, >> entirely >> >> within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were >> responding. >> >> It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly >> didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did >> say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is >> that >> assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm >> wrong, >> is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued >> that >> blind people ought to forego law school. >> >> In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses >> were >> >> to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for >> blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your >> comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind >> lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the >> legal >> >> profession. >> >> Regards, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Weisberg" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I >>> was >>> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law >>> student >>> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >>> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >>> you >>> in case you just missed it: >>> >>> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >>> obtaining >>> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >>> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >>> school >>> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >>> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >>> the >>> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer >>> it >>> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >>> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" >>> both >>> financially and time-wise. >>> >>> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >>> capable >>> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >>> responses >>> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >>> "issues?" >>> >>> Respectfully~ >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Ross, >>> >>> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >>> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough >>> about >>> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >>> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >>> That >>> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with >>> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started >>> this all, in case some have forgotten: >>> >>> Curious: >>> >>> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at >>> all???? >>> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >>> would >>> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with >>> vision >>> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >>> >>> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >>> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind >>> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >>> vision >>> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all >>> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say >>> that >>> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >>> profession >>> >>> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >>> the >>> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >>> It's >>> >>> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >>> >>> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >>> given >>> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >>> think >>> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >>> response >>> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >>> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >>> it's >>> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >>> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >>> appropriate response to me. >>> >>> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >>> belief >>> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue >>> that >>> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult >>> for >>> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >>> you >>> will find any disagreement on this list. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ross Doerr" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts >>>> to >>>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>>> of >>>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >>>> do >>> >>>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >>>> at >>> >>>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >>>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a >>>> feel >>>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>>> the >>> >>>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>>> and >>> >>>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >>>> as >>> >>>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>>> spite >>> >>>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>>> States. >>>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >>>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >>>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>>> in >>>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>>> for >>>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>>> to >>>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>>> transportation >>> >>>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding >>>> SGA >>>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>>> you >>> >>>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>>> lets >>> >>>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>>> because >>>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>>> malpractice. >>>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library >>>> anywhere? >>>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial >>>> work >>>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >>>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >>>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation >>>> of >>>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you >>>> MUST >>>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>>> SGA >>> >>>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>>> blind. >>>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice >>>> for >>>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>>> services >>>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >>>> to >>> >>>> put up with. >>>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >>>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >>>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to >>>> all >>>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>>> good >>> >>>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >>>> of >>> >>>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >>>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>>> to >>>> fix the depression that we are in. >>>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>>> that >>> >>>> observation? >>>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >>>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >>>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase >>>> the >>>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>>> planning >>> >>>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>>> forestall >>> >>>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >>>> area as well. >>>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>>> then >>>> again neither do the economists. >>>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good >>>> out >>>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >>>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are >>>> actualy >>>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >>>> to >>> >>>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >>>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of >>>> september. >>>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >>>> my >>> >>>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in >>>> Maine, >>>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>>> rate, >>> >>>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >>>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>>> Republicans or the independents. >>>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>>> sighted >>>> counterpart? >>>> Of course it is. >>>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>>> >>>> Ross >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Dennis, >>>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>>> positions. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Aser >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>>> in >>>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>>> All the best, >>>>>> Dennis >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, >>>>>> as >>>>>> I >>>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of >>>>>>> disability >>>>>>> though >>>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>>>> effort >>>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>>> sector >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>>> interview >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> target. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>>> jobs >>> >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>>>> offers >>>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>>> employed >>>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>>>> in >>> >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>>> > right >>>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> %0Ane.net >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>>> om< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> %0Aom >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >>> global.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >>> er.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: >>>> 11/20/10 >>>> 07:34:00 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From mruniverse08 at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 22:06:18 2010 From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 16:06:18 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <03C2F1A822054FCBAB3709D452E48DF0@GPD945> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> <7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> <7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> <939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> <03C2F1A822054FCBAB3709D452E48DF0@GPD945> Message-ID: <0c0b01cb89c8$559713e0$00c53ba0$@com> This has definitely been a really intriguing discussion today! I'm a blind paralegal and have had issue with finding employment as well after losing my sight a couple years ago. I know of only one other blind paralegal here in Houston, of course there could be more, and my non-profit I started is making an effort to meet with staffing agencies as well as employers to discuss the benefits of hiring not only the blind, but the disabled in general. there are a few blind attorneys that I know of in the city. I think, from my experience, that people just don't know and they're uncomfortable dealing with the blind. I'm not sure if it's from a past experience or just not having encountered someone blind. I think we go a long way if we don't accuse first and then want to explain. i guess I feel this way because I have not always been blind and it's a really new thing to me compared to some who are here. i never saw a blind person other than on TV and that was rare. I'm not sure how I would have reacted if I had not had the experience I have today. There are many who wish to take a negative approach to folks without first taking time to understand if they are simply being discriminatory or simply have a lack of understanding. Sorry for the long post. Will -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:52 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I've never understood Philosophy. Mark if you can assist me in understanding philosophy, might be my thinking about things, I've never understood it. I tried taking Philosophhy 150 however dropped it after failing the midterm horribly. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Mark, you're a philosopher? Hey, someone help him get into law school before he gets away, . He can argue with the best of us. For Pete's sake don't let him waste away his life in some university philosophy department at low pay. He'll just end up with a full beard and smoking a pipe like my old philosophy proff. All kidding aside, the underlying issue here, repeat "underlying issue" is the unemployment rate among dedicated blind professionals who have chosen the legal profession as their life work, or as work, not necessarily for life. We're blind and we don't fit the "norm" for employment strategies that seem to work pretty good for our sighted counterparts. So what are "we" going to do about it? Can we agree that the usual BlindLaw "misquoted" and "mischaracterized" and "Misunderstood my meaning" arguments are pretty well spent and have gotten us the usual results. a clogged up list serve and nothing of substance to show for it. Lets try to set up some regional groups to strategize jobs and successful tactics in our respective areas of the country. How about pressuring bar associations to be pro-active for this particular type of diversity? How about trying to rope in some of the real big-shot law firms, I mean the movers and shakers who really dominate specified areas of law in our respective states to put some action behind their well-advertised standards of how much they really care about people out there. Thats my suggestion as a starting point. Who has another idea to add to, or replace it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Workman" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, and > we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. > > James said, > Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these > beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? > > I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. > Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. > > When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people > should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The > emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it > is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and > hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind > lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with > well > researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up > plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before > entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one > that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received > nearly as much disagreement. > > Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, or > at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school > entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less > reasonable, > harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because it > is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented > based on their and others's experiences. > > In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at > least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I > doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of > blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at > attaining > adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in > comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until that > evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against the > experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say > that > blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if we're > just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly > held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is > difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and > blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to > eliminate the barriers they face. > > Best, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Marc: >> >> You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people >> should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were >> saying >> that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But >> what >> you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the >> one >> that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment >> vs. >> the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was >> attempting >> to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be swell >> for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not make >> sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of >> whether you hold the same opinions? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Marc Workman >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken >> out >> of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that >> you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original >> post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts >> responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you >> responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. >> >> I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but >> nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind >> lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, >> *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, >> entirely >> >> within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were >> responding. >> >> It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly >> didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did >> say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is >> that >> assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm >> wrong, >> is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued >> that >> blind people ought to forego law school. >> >> In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses >> were >> >> to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for >> blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your >> comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind >> lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the >> legal >> >> profession. >> >> Regards, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Weisberg" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I >>> was >>> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law >>> student >>> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >>> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >>> you >>> in case you just missed it: >>> >>> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >>> obtaining >>> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >>> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >>> school >>> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >>> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >>> the >>> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer >>> it >>> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >>> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" >>> both >>> financially and time-wise. >>> >>> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >>> capable >>> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >>> responses >>> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >>> "issues?" >>> >>> Respectfully~ >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Ross, >>> >>> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >>> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough >>> about >>> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >>> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >>> That >>> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with >>> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started >>> this all, in case some have forgotten: >>> >>> Curious: >>> >>> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at >>> all???? >>> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >>> would >>> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with >>> vision >>> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >>> >>> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >>> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind >>> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >>> vision >>> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all >>> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say >>> that >>> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >>> profession >>> >>> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >>> the >>> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >>> It's >>> >>> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >>> >>> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >>> given >>> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >>> think >>> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >>> response >>> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >>> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >>> it's >>> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >>> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >>> appropriate response to me. >>> >>> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >>> belief >>> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue >>> that >>> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult >>> for >>> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >>> you >>> will find any disagreement on this list. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ross Doerr" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts >>>> to >>>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>>> of >>>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >>>> do >>> >>>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >>>> at >>> >>>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >>>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a >>>> feel >>>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>>> the >>> >>>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>>> and >>> >>>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >>>> as >>> >>>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>>> spite >>> >>>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>>> States. >>>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >>>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >>>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>>> in >>>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>>> for >>>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>>> to >>>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>>> transportation >>> >>>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding >>>> SGA >>>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>>> you >>> >>>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>>> lets >>> >>>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>>> because >>>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>>> malpractice. >>>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library >>>> anywhere? >>>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial >>>> work >>>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >>>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >>>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation >>>> of >>>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you >>>> MUST >>>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>>> SGA >>> >>>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>>> blind. >>>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice >>>> for >>>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>>> services >>>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >>>> to >>> >>>> put up with. >>>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >>>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >>>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to >>>> all >>>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>>> good >>> >>>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >>>> of >>> >>>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >>>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>>> to >>>> fix the depression that we are in. >>>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>>> that >>> >>>> observation? >>>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >>>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >>>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase >>>> the >>>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>>> planning >>> >>>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>>> forestall >>> >>>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >>>> area as well. >>>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>>> then >>>> again neither do the economists. >>>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good >>>> out >>>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >>>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are >>>> actualy >>>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >>>> to >>> >>>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >>>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of >>>> september. >>>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >>>> my >>> >>>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in >>>> Maine, >>>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>>> rate, >>> >>>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >>>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>>> Republicans or the independents. >>>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>>> sighted >>>> counterpart? >>>> Of course it is. >>>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>>> >>>> Ross >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Dennis, >>>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>>> positions. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Aser >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>>> in >>>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>>> All the best, >>>>>> Dennis >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, >>>>>> as >>>>>> I >>>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of >>>>>>> disability >>>>>>> though >>>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>>>> effort >>>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>>> sector >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>>> interview >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> target. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>>> jobs >>> >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>>>> offers >>>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>>> employed >>>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>>>> in >>> >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>>> > right >>>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> %0Ane.net >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>>> om< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> %0Aom >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >>> global.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >>> er.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: >>>> 11/20/10 >>>> 07:34:00 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn er.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa sktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma il.com From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Mon Nov 22 00:52:58 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:52:58 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server> <7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC> <7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind> <939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> <03C2F1A822054FCBAB3709D452E48DF0@GPD945> <0c0b01cb89c8$559713e0$00c53ba0$@com> Message-ID: <606E89B7B299407FB6F338DA52BA8F6F@GPD945> It's very interesting reading these threads. As a Canadian it's very interesting when you hear sighted people suggesting that you try and get a job with the government because they tend to hire people with disabilities, I find that they do hire people with disabilities however they don't hire a lot of blind people. If this statement was true that they hire people with disabilities then why is it that the governments are still uneducated about technology that blind people use? If the provincial and federal government were hireing more blind people then why is the rate of employment so low with blind people? Does it come down to qualification or just the unknown and the willingness to learn and give us a chance? I find that people that do have a job it was the employers that gave them a chance. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "WB" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys This has definitely been a really intriguing discussion today! I'm a blind paralegal and have had issue with finding employment as well after losing my sight a couple years ago. I know of only one other blind paralegal here in Houston, of course there could be more, and my non-profit I started is making an effort to meet with staffing agencies as well as employers to discuss the benefits of hiring not only the blind, but the disabled in general. there are a few blind attorneys that I know of in the city. I think, from my experience, that people just don't know and they're uncomfortable dealing with the blind. I'm not sure if it's from a past experience or just not having encountered someone blind. I think we go a long way if we don't accuse first and then want to explain. i guess I feel this way because I have not always been blind and it's a really new thing to me compared to some who are here. i never saw a blind person other than on TV and that was rare. I'm not sure how I would have reacted if I had not had the experience I have today. There are many who wish to take a negative approach to folks without first taking time to understand if they are simply being discriminatory or simply have a lack of understanding. Sorry for the long post. Will -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:52 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I've never understood Philosophy. Mark if you can assist me in understanding philosophy, might be my thinking about things, I've never understood it. I tried taking Philosophhy 150 however dropped it after failing the midterm horribly. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Mark, you're a philosopher? Hey, someone help him get into law school before he gets away, . He can argue with the best of us. For Pete's sake don't let him waste away his life in some university philosophy department at low pay. He'll just end up with a full beard and smoking a pipe like my old philosophy proff. All kidding aside, the underlying issue here, repeat "underlying issue" is the unemployment rate among dedicated blind professionals who have chosen the legal profession as their life work, or as work, not necessarily for life. We're blind and we don't fit the "norm" for employment strategies that seem to work pretty good for our sighted counterparts. So what are "we" going to do about it? Can we agree that the usual BlindLaw "misquoted" and "mischaracterized" and "Misunderstood my meaning" arguments are pretty well spent and have gotten us the usual results. a clogged up list serve and nothing of substance to show for it. Lets try to set up some regional groups to strategize jobs and successful tactics in our respective areas of the country. How about pressuring bar associations to be pro-active for this particular type of diversity? How about trying to rope in some of the real big-shot law firms, I mean the movers and shakers who really dominate specified areas of law in our respective states to put some action behind their well-advertised standards of how much they really care about people out there. Thats my suggestion as a starting point. Who has another idea to add to, or replace it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Workman" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, and > we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. > > James said, > Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these > beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? > > I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. > Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. > > When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people > should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The > emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it > is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and > hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind > lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with > well > researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up > plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before > entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one > that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received > nearly as much disagreement. > > Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, or > at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school > entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less > reasonable, > harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because it > is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented > based on their and others's experiences. > > In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at > least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I > doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of > blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at > attaining > adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in > comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until that > evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against the > experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say > that > blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if we're > just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly > held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is > difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and > blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to > eliminate the barriers they face. > > Best, > > Marc > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Marc: >> >> You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people >> should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were >> saying >> that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But >> what >> you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the >> one >> that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment >> vs. >> the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was >> attempting >> to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be swell >> for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not make >> sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of >> whether you hold the same opinions? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Marc Workman >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken >> out >> of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that >> you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original >> post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts >> responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you >> responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. >> >> I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but >> nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind >> lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, >> *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, >> entirely >> >> within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were >> responding. >> >> It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly >> didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did >> say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is >> that >> assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm >> wrong, >> is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued >> that >> blind people ought to forego law school. >> >> In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses >> were >> >> to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for >> blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your >> comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind >> lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the >> legal >> >> profession. >> >> Regards, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Weisberg" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I >>> was >>> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law >>> student >>> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >>> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >>> you >>> in case you just missed it: >>> >>> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >>> obtaining >>> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >>> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >>> school >>> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >>> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >>> the >>> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer >>> it >>> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >>> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" >>> both >>> financially and time-wise. >>> >>> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >>> capable >>> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >>> responses >>> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >>> "issues?" >>> >>> Respectfully~ >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Ross, >>> >>> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >>> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough >>> about >>> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >>> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >>> That >>> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with >>> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started >>> this all, in case some have forgotten: >>> >>> Curious: >>> >>> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at >>> all???? >>> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >>> would >>> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with >>> vision >>> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >>> >>> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >>> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind >>> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >>> vision >>> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all >>> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say >>> that >>> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >>> profession >>> >>> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >>> the >>> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >>> It's >>> >>> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >>> >>> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >>> given >>> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >>> think >>> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >>> response >>> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >>> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >>> it's >>> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >>> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >>> appropriate response to me. >>> >>> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >>> belief >>> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue >>> that >>> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult >>> for >>> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >>> you >>> will find any disagreement on this list. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ross Doerr" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts >>>> to >>>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>>> of >>>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and >>>> do >>> >>>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed >>>> at >>> >>>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among >>>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a >>>> feel >>>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>>> the >>> >>>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>>> and >>> >>>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges >>>> as >>> >>>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>>> spite >>> >>>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>>> States. >>>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it >>>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE >>>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>>> in >>>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>>> for >>>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>>> to >>>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>>> transportation >>> >>>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding >>>> SGA >>>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>>> you >>> >>>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>>> lets >>> >>>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>>> because >>>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>>> malpractice. >>>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library >>>> anywhere? >>>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial >>>> work >>>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly? >>>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're >>>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation >>>> of >>>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you >>>> MUST >>>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>>> SGA >>> >>>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>>> blind. >>>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice >>>> for >>>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>>> services >>>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have >>>> to >>> >>>> put up with. >>>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so >>>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them. >>>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to >>>> all >>>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>>> good >>> >>>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those >>>> of >>> >>>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on >>>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>>> to >>>> fix the depression that we are in. >>>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>>> that >>> >>>> observation? >>>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to >>>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not >>>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase >>>> the >>>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>>> planning >>> >>>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>>> forestall >>> >>>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that >>>> area as well. >>>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>>> then >>>> again neither do the economists. >>>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good >>>> out >>>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be >>>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are >>>> actualy >>>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only >>>> to >>> >>>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it >>>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of >>>> september. >>>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and >>>> my >>> >>>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in >>>> Maine, >>>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>>> rate, >>> >>>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the >>>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>>> Republicans or the independents. >>>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>>> sighted >>>> counterpart? >>>> Of course it is. >>>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>>> >>>> Ross >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Dennis, >>>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>>> positions. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Aser >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>>> in >>>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>>> All the best, >>>>>> Dennis >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, >>>>>> as >>>>>> I >>>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of >>>>>>> disability >>>>>>> though >>>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>>>>>> effort >>>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>>> sector >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>>> interview >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> target. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>>> jobs >>> >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>>>>>> offers >>>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>>> employed >>>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers >>>>>>>> in >>> >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>>> > right >>>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> %0Ane.net >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>>> om< >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> %0Aom >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >>> global.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >>> er.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: >>>> 11/20/10 >>>> 07:34:00 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn er.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa sktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 22 01:17:12 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 17:17:12 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server><7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC><7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind><939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> Message-ID: <112501cb89e2$fef75f70$6601a8c0@server> Hi Ross, Always good to hear from you. Please let's not limit ourselves to regional groups. Thee aren't enough of us as it is and with the use of the internet and essentially unlimited telephone service, we can form virtual law firms. As I hope my recent post have successfully argued, we must organize as a group and begin pushing as you also suggested. I downloaded a book from bookshare yesterday, I am half way through it, and I would greatly enjoy hearing what others think of the ideas and history contained in it. It is called, "THURGOOD MARSHALL: American Revolutionary" By Juan Williams. Marshall's struggles for employment in a world where lawyers of his color were unwelcome in law firms, where clients would not come to him because they did not trust the competence of lawyers who were black, and where those who were themselves black did not have enough money to hire him even when they did have legal problems, are very similar to our own struggles. Obviously, he made his own opportunity out of the discrimination which confronted him and all those like himself. We can do this too. We can accomplish a lot individually for blind people simply because we are lawyers, and we can achieve even more if we begin acting collectively. My view is that as a group we are among the most oppressed, and for the blind even the world of Plessy v. Ferguson would be an improvement, because separate but equal would be an improvement over our current condition of separate but unequal. Unfortunately, we as a group are not demanding equality, but rather we simply ask for accessibility, whatever that means, and in practice it means very little and falls way short of equality. My personality is such that I do not want us begging on street corners, nor do I want us to continue begging the government, private business, and nonprofit institutions to do that which they are obligated to do by law. This means we must start demanding and stop begging, because the two things are not the same. As you can see in the book about Marshal, he was not begging for equality, he was demanding it using his law license and the power that gave him as a club. I am committed to the idea that we must do the same thing and I am a total believer that this is the only way we will ever achieve equality. I look forward to hearing everyone else's ideas on how we can organize ourselves for support and collective action, as well as thoughts about the book and how Marshall's experiences can guide us as lawyers. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Mark, you're a philosopher? > Hey, someone help him get into law school before he gets away, . He can > argue with the best of us. For Pete's sake don't let him waste away his > life in some university philosophy department at low pay. He'll just end > up with a full beard and smoking a pipe like my old philosophy proff. > > All kidding aside, the underlying issue here, repeat "underlying issue" is > the unemployment rate among dedicated blind professionals who have chosen > the legal profession as their life work, or as work, not necessarily for > life. > We're blind and we don't fit the "norm" for employment strategies that > seem to work pretty good for our sighted counterparts. > So what are "we" going to do about it? > Can we agree that the usual BlindLaw "misquoted" and "mischaracterized" > and "Misunderstood my meaning" arguments are pretty well spent and have > gotten us the usual results. a clogged up list serve and nothing of > substance to show for it. > Lets try to set up some regional groups to strategize jobs and successful > tactics in our respective areas of the country. > How about pressuring bar associations to be pro-active for this particular > type of diversity? How about trying to rope in some of the real big-shot > law firms, I mean the movers and shakers who really dominate specified > areas of law in our respective states to put some action behind their > well-advertised standards of how much they really care about people out > there. > Thats my suggestion as a starting point. > Who has another idea to add to, or replace it? > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marc Workman" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:22 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, >> and >> we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. >> >> James said, >> Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these >> beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? >> >> I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. >> Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. >> >> When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people >> should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The >> emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it >> is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and >> hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind >> lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with >> well >> researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up >> plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before >> entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one >> that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received >> nearly as much disagreement. >> >> Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, >> or >> at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school >> entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less >> reasonable, >> harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because >> it >> is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented >> based on their and others's experiences. >> >> In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at >> least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I >> doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of >> blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at >> attaining >> adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in >> comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until >> that >> evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against >> the >> experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say >> that >> blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if >> we're >> just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly >> held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is >> difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and >> blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to >> eliminate the barriers they face. >> >> Best, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Weisberg" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Marc: >>> >>> You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people >>> should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were >>> saying >>> that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But >>> what >>> you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the >>> one >>> that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment >>> vs. >>> the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was >>> attempting >>> to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be >>> swell >>> for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not >>> make >>> sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of >>> whether you hold the same opinions? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken >>> out >>> of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right >>> that >>> you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original >>> post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts >>> responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you >>> responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. >>> >>> I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but >>> nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind >>> lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, >>> *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, >>> entirely >>> >>> within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were >>> responding. >>> >>> It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I >>> certainly >>> didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You >>> did >>> say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is >>> that >>> assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm >>> wrong, >>> is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued >>> that >>> blind people ought to forego law school. >>> >>> In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses >>> were >>> >>> to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for >>> blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your >>> comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind >>> lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the >>> legal >>> >>> profession. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Marc >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "James Weisberg" >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I >>>> was >>>> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law >>>> student >>>> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >>>> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >>>> you >>>> in case you just missed it: >>>> >>>> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >>>> obtaining >>>> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >>>> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >>>> school >>>> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >>>> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >>>> the >>>> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job >>>> offer >>>> it >>>> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >>>> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" >>>> both >>>> financially and time-wise. >>>> >>>> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >>>> capable >>>> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >>>> responses >>>> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >>>> "issues?" >>>> >>>> Respectfully~ >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Ross, >>>> >>>> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >>>> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough >>>> about >>>> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >>>> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >>>> That >>>> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond >>>> with >>>> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that >>>> started >>>> this all, in case some have forgotten: >>>> >>>> Curious: >>>> >>>> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at >>>> all???? >>>> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >>>> would >>>> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with >>>> vision >>>> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >>>> >>>> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >>>> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The >>>> blind >>>> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >>>> vision >>>> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out >>>> all >>>> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say >>>> that >>>> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >>>> profession >>>> >>>> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >>>> the >>>> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >>>> It's >>>> >>>> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >>>> >>>> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >>>> given >>>> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >>>> think >>>> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >>>> response >>>> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >>>> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >>>> it's >>>> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >>>> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >>>> appropriate response to me. >>>> >>>> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >>>> belief >>>> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue >>>> that >>>> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult >>>> for >>>> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >>>> you >>>> will find any disagreement on this list. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Marc >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ross Doerr" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>>>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts >>>>> to >>>>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>>>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>>>> of >>>>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there >>>>> and >>>>> do >>>> >>>>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were >>>>> aimed >>>>> at >>>> >>>>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>>>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate >>>>> among >>>>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a >>>>> feel >>>>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>>>> the >>>> >>>>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>>>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>>>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>>>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>>>> and >>>> >>>>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit >>>>> ranges >>>>> as >>>> >>>>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>>>> spite >>>> >>>>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>>>> States. >>>>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>>>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>>>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, >>>>> it >>>>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and >>>>> CLE >>>>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>>>> in >>>>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>>>> for >>>>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>>>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>>>> to >>>>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>>>> transportation >>>> >>>>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding >>>>> SGA >>>>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>>>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>>>> you >>>> >>>>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>>>> lets >>>> >>>>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>>>> because >>>>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>>>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>>>> malpractice. >>>>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library >>>>> anywhere? >>>>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial >>>>> work >>>>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting >>>>> monthly? >>>>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If >>>>> you're >>>>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation >>>>> of >>>>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you >>>>> MUST >>>>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>>>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>>>> SGA >>>> >>>>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>>>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>>>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>>>> blind. >>>>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>>>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice >>>>> for >>>>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>>>> services >>>>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>>>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't >>>>> have >>>>> to >>>> >>>>> put up with. >>>>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, >>>>> so >>>>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>>>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for >>>>> them. >>>>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to >>>>> all >>>>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>>>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>>>> good >>>> >>>>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. >>>>> Those >>>>> of >>>> >>>>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research >>>>> on >>>>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>>>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>>>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>>>> to >>>>> fix the depression that we are in. >>>>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>>>> that >>>> >>>>> observation? >>>>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants >>>>> to >>>>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>>>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness >>>>> not >>>>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase >>>>> the >>>>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>>>> planning >>>> >>>>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>>>> forestall >>>> >>>>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>>>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>>>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>>>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut >>>>> that >>>>> area as well. >>>>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>>>> then >>>>> again neither do the economists. >>>>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good >>>>> out >>>>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>>>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always >>>>> be >>>>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are >>>>> actualy >>>>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>>>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>>>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? >>>>> Only >>>>> to >>>> >>>>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do >>>>> it >>>>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>>>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of >>>>> september. >>>>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>>>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself >>>>> and >>>>> my >>>> >>>>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in >>>>> Maine, >>>>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>>>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>>>> rate, >>>> >>>>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what >>>>> the >>>>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>>>> Republicans or the independents. >>>>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>>>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>>>> sighted >>>>> counterpart? >>>>> Of course it is. >>>>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>>>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>>>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>>>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>>>> >>>>> Ross >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Dennis, >>>>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>>>> positions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Aser >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>>>> All the best, >>>>>>> Dennis >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of >>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>> though >>>>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> effort >>>>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>>>> sector >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision >>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>>>> interview >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> target. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>>>> jobs >>>> >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to >>>>>>>>> receive >>>>>>>>> offers >>>>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>>>> employed >>>>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>>> in >>>> >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>>>> > right >>>>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>> %0Ane.net >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>>>> om< >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> %0Aom >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >>>> global.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >>>> er.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: >>>>> 11/20/10 >>>>> 07:34:00 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 07:35:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From devinenora at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 02:31:56 2010 From: devinenora at gmail.com (Nora Devine) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:31:56 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities Message-ID: Hi! Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed to register for classes before all other students. My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also often left with very little time to convert course materials and text books. Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. Thanks so much for you help!! - Nora -- Best Regards, Nora Devine Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 University of San Francisco School of Law Tel: 510-508-4209 devinenora at gmail.com From withat at msn.com Mon Nov 22 04:43:53 2010 From: withat at msn.com (Johnston) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:43:53 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] navigating the FRCPs References: Message-ID: Hello list, Has anyone learned a quick way of navigating volumes like the FRCPs? I'm reading them from a Word document. So far, I'm able to quickly navigate to the particular rule using Word's find function, but getting to particular sections has involved a lot of down arrowing. If it is section r, subsection 8, subsubsection j, it takes a while to find. JAWS has a function (I haven't learned it yet) where the cursor in Word moves like the pc cursor in a web browser. Perhaps if the rules, sections, subsections, etc. were formatted in heading levels, I could more quickly skip to the desired location. Has anyone tried this method? Thanks much. Jay in Portland From carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 05:18:27 2010 From: carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com (Kate Carroll) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 00:18:27 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] navigating the FRCPs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay in Portland, I don't know how much this will help, but have you tried using the Cornell website for the FRCP? http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/ Sometimes I use the search function in my browser to find a Rule, click on the link, and then search again within that Rule for the section I need. I'm not a JAWS user, so i can't comment on that. Kate On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Johnston wrote: > Hello list, > > Has anyone learned a quick way of navigating volumes like the FRCPs? I'm > reading them from a Word document. So far, I'm able to quickly navigate to > the particular rule using Word's find function, but getting to particular > sections has involved a lot of down arrowing. If it is section r, > subsection 8, subsubsection j, it takes a while to find. > > JAWS has a function (I haven't learned it yet) where the cursor in Word > moves like the pc cursor in a web browser. Perhaps if the rules, sections, > subsections, etc. were formatted in heading levels, I could more quickly > skip to the desired location. Has anyone tried this method? > > Thanks much. > > Jay in Portland > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com > -- Kathryn CARROLL St. John's University College of Law 2013 631-521-3018 From dbeitz at wiennergould.com Mon Nov 22 15:03:17 2010 From: dbeitz at wiennergould.com (Daniel K. Beitz) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:03:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I bet Michigan State does. Try them. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nora Devine Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:32 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities Hi! Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed to register for classes before all other students. My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also often left with very little time to convert course materials and text books. Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. Thanks so much for you help!! - Nora -- Best Regards, Nora Devine Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 University of San Francisco School of Law Tel: 510-508-4209 devinenora at gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Mon Nov 22 15:09:07 2010 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 08:09:07 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E77C@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Check with U of Arizona as well - I do not know for sure, but there were many in school when I was thee, and since, who had disabilities and handicaps, sometimes multiple(visual, hearing, and physical). -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Daniel K. Beitz Sent: Monday, 22 November, 2010 8:03 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities I bet Michigan State does. Try them. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nora Devine Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:32 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities Hi! Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed to register for classes before all other students. My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also often left with very little time to convert course materials and text books. Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. Thanks so much for you help!! - Nora -- Best Regards, Nora Devine Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 University of San Francisco School of Law Tel: 510-508-4209 devinenora at gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wienn ergo uld.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov From dbeitz at wiennergould.com Mon Nov 22 15:25:35 2010 From: dbeitz at wiennergould.com (Daniel K. Beitz) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:25:35 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <112501cb89e2$fef75f70$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><105a01cb88f9$4a05a7f0$6601a8c0@server><7ED3F6CA0DCB49B088FF7074822379BC@MarcPC><7FAE897358064893863F8083B3E89957@Blind><939C3BA02C8349D0A70DBDAC6DDB70EE@MarcPC> <112501cb89e2$fef75f70$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <3D0B8C23FFC54003BDCACD75EFB31A62@DHRL6TC1> Hello: I am a new subscriber to this list serve. Perhaps my story can help. I currently work for a vehicle warranty law firm in the Detroit area. I have been practicing for 18 years. What made the difference for me is finding one person who believed in me and gave me a chance. In law school, I interviewed 50 times in four weeks without a single job offer, when my classmates were doing very well. On the 51st try, I landed a job at a big firm that probably only hired me because they paid poorly and needed graduates from my law school to put on the firm resume. I nevertheless did very well, and have not really been unemployed for the past 15 years. In 1995, I started my own practice. A friend of mine from law school who was corporate counsel at a small auto supplier, hired me to try and quash subpoenas sent to factory human resource directors for the testimony of corporate employees. The lawyer was simply trying to harass the company that his opposing party worked for. This was not exactly rewarding work, but I got good results, and things grew from there. I also signed up with the county to defend hospitalized crazy people in involuntary commitment hearings. Believe me, these people needed to be involuntarily committed, and the work was kind of a joke. Nevertheless, I got to know the judges who assigned the cases, and made a little money. So, the trick is to get started doing something, anything, and in a few years, maybe you'll get somewhere. I don't believe that the law has all that many accessibility barriers to the blind, as other fields might have. The only hindrance is bigoted lawyers. You can't entirely over come that, but you can still succeed in spite of it. Thus, I would not discourage a blind person from going to law school if it is really what he/she wants to do. However, it is a good idea to take stock of the current state of the profession. The profession is simply over staffed for the amount of work. There are many unemployed or under employed sighted lawyers, so things are certainly not going to be easy for a blind attorney, particularly a new lawyer. Hope this helps. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:17 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Hi Ross, Always good to hear from you. Please let's not limit ourselves to regional groups. Thee aren't enough of us as it is and with the use of the internet and essentially unlimited telephone service, we can form virtual law firms. As I hope my recent post have successfully argued, we must organize as a group and begin pushing as you also suggested. I downloaded a book from bookshare yesterday, I am half way through it, and I would greatly enjoy hearing what others think of the ideas and history contained in it. It is called, "THURGOOD MARSHALL: American Revolutionary" By Juan Williams. Marshall's struggles for employment in a world where lawyers of his color were unwelcome in law firms, where clients would not come to him because they did not trust the competence of lawyers who were black, and where those who were themselves black did not have enough money to hire him even when they did have legal problems, are very similar to our own struggles. Obviously, he made his own opportunity out of the discrimination which confronted him and all those like himself. We can do this too. We can accomplish a lot individually for blind people simply because we are lawyers, and we can achieve even more if we begin acting collectively. My view is that as a group we are among the most oppressed, and for the blind even the world of Plessy v. Ferguson would be an improvement, because separate but equal would be an improvement over our current condition of separate but unequal. Unfortunately, we as a group are not demanding equality, but rather we simply ask for accessibility, whatever that means, and in practice it means very little and falls way short of equality. My personality is such that I do not want us begging on street corners, nor do I want us to continue begging the government, private business, and nonprofit institutions to do that which they are obligated to do by law. This means we must start demanding and stop begging, because the two things are not the same. As you can see in the book about Marshal, he was not begging for equality, he was demanding it using his law license and the power that gave him as a club. I am committed to the idea that we must do the same thing and I am a total believer that this is the only way we will ever achieve equality. I look forward to hearing everyone else's ideas on how we can organize ourselves for support and collective action, as well as thoughts about the book and how Marshall's experiences can guide us as lawyers. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Mark, you're a philosopher? > Hey, someone help him get into law school before he gets away, . He can > argue with the best of us. For Pete's sake don't let him waste away his > life in some university philosophy department at low pay. He'll just end > up with a full beard and smoking a pipe like my old philosophy proff. > > All kidding aside, the underlying issue here, repeat "underlying issue" is > the unemployment rate among dedicated blind professionals who have chosen > the legal profession as their life work, or as work, not necessarily for > life. > We're blind and we don't fit the "norm" for employment strategies that > seem to work pretty good for our sighted counterparts. > So what are "we" going to do about it? > Can we agree that the usual BlindLaw "misquoted" and "mischaracterized" > and "Misunderstood my meaning" arguments are pretty well spent and have > gotten us the usual results. a clogged up list serve and nothing of > substance to show for it. > Lets try to set up some regional groups to strategize jobs and successful > tactics in our respective areas of the country. > How about pressuring bar associations to be pro-active for this particular > type of diversity? How about trying to rope in some of the real big-shot > law firms, I mean the movers and shakers who really dominate specified > areas of law in our respective states to put some action behind their > well-advertised standards of how much they really care about people out > there. > Thats my suggestion as a starting point. > Who has another idea to add to, or replace it? > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marc Workman" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:22 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer, >> and >> we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further. >> >> James said, >> Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these >> beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions? >> >> I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical. >> Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent. >> >> When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people >> should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The >> emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it >> is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and >> hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind >> lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with >> well >> researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up >> plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before >> entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one >> that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received >> nearly as much disagreement. >> >> Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is, >> or >> at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school >> entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less >> reasonable, >> harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because >> it >> is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented >> based on their and others's experiences. >> >> In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at >> least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I >> doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of >> blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at >> attaining >> adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in >> comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until >> that >> evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against >> the >> experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say >> that >> blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if >> we're >> just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly >> held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is >> difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and >> blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to >> eliminate the barriers they face. >> >> Best, >> >> Marc >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Weisberg" >> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Marc: >>> >>> You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people >>> should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were >>> saying >>> that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But >>> what >>> you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the >>> one >>> that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment >>> vs. >>> the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was >>> attempting >>> to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be >>> swell >>> for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not >>> make >>> sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of >>> whether you hold the same opinions? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken >>> out >>> of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right >>> that >>> you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original >>> post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts >>> responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you >>> responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post. >>> >>> I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but >>> nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind >>> lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people, >>> *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, >>> entirely >>> >>> within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were >>> responding. >>> >>> It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I >>> certainly >>> didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You >>> did >>> say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is >>> that >>> assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm >>> wrong, >>> is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued >>> that >>> blind people ought to forego law school. >>> >>> In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses >>> were >>> >>> to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for >>> blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your >>> comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind >>> lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the >>> legal >>> >>> profession. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Marc >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "James Weisberg" >>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I >>>> was >>>> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law >>>> student >>>> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough >>>> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for >>>> you >>>> in case you just missed it: >>>> >>>> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of >>>> obtaining >>>> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high >>>> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law >>>> school >>>> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been >>>> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that >>>> the >>>> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job >>>> offer >>>> it >>>> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many >>>> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" >>>> both >>>> financially and time-wise. >>>> >>>> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is >>>> capable >>>> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive" >>>> responses >>>> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own >>>> "issues?" >>>> >>>> Respectfully~ >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Marc Workman >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Ross, >>>> >>>> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind >>>> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough >>>> about >>>> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would >>>> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession. >>>> That >>>> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond >>>> with >>>> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that >>>> started >>>> this all, in case some have forgotten: >>>> >>>> Curious: >>>> >>>> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at >>>> all???? >>>> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >>>> would >>>> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with >>>> vision >>>> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >>>> >>>> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see >>>> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The >>>> blind >>>> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with >>>> vision >>>> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out >>>> all >>>> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say >>>> that >>>> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal >>>> profession >>>> >>>> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome >>>> the >>>> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market. >>>> It's >>>> >>>> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment. >>>> >>>> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism, >>>> given >>>> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I >>>> think >>>> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the >>>> response >>>> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage. >>>> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but >>>> it's >>>> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind >>>> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an >>>> appropriate response to me. >>>> >>>> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the >>>> belief >>>> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue >>>> that >>>> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult >>>> for >>>> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt >>>> you >>>> will find any disagreement on this list. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Marc >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ross Doerr" >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a >>>>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts >>>>> to >>>>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. >>>>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations >>>>> of >>>>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there >>>>> and >>>>> do >>>> >>>>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were >>>>> aimed >>>>> at >>>> >>>>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work. >>>>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate >>>>> among >>>>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a >>>>> feel >>>>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on >>>>> the >>>> >>>>> blind, much less blind lawyers. >>>>> Everyone here has a valid point to make. >>>>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well. >>>>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000 >>>>> and >>>> >>>>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit >>>>> ranges >>>>> as >>>> >>>>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in >>>>> spite >>>> >>>>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United >>>>> States. >>>>> There are times I doubt that premise. >>>>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on. >>>>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, >>>>> it >>>>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and >>>>> CLE >>>>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice >>>>> in >>>>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays >>>>> for >>>>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for >>>>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted >>>>> to >>>>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay >>>>> transportation >>>> >>>>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding >>>>> SGA >>>>> if you can afford that kind of transportation. >>>>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if >>>>> you >>>> >>>>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now, >>>>> lets >>>> >>>>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, >>>>> because >>>>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw >>>>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal >>>>> malpractice. >>>>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library >>>>> anywhere? >>>>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial >>>>> work >>>>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting >>>>> monthly? >>>>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If >>>>> you're >>>>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation >>>>> of >>>>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you >>>>> MUST >>>>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there >>>>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS >>>>> SGA >>>> >>>>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late. >>>>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted? >>>>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are >>>>> blind. >>>>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular >>>>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice >>>>> for >>>>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their >>>>> services >>>>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a >>>>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't >>>>> have >>>>> to >>>> >>>>> put up with. >>>>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, >>>>> so >>>>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they >>>>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for >>>>> them. >>>>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to >>>>> all >>>>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial. >>>>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under >>>>> good >>>> >>>>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. >>>>> Those >>>>> of >>>> >>>>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research >>>>> on >>>>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I >>>>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough. >>>>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try >>>>> to >>>>> fix the depression that we are in. >>>>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with >>>>> that >>>> >>>>> observation? >>>>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants >>>>> to >>>>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand >>>>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness >>>>> not >>>>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase >>>>> the >>>>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously >>>>> planning >>>> >>>>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally >>>>> forestall >>>> >>>>> overall job availability on a national scale. >>>>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local >>>>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later. >>>>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut >>>>> that >>>>> area as well. >>>>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but >>>>> then >>>>> again neither do the economists. >>>>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good >>>>> out >>>>> there and its going to stay that way for a while. >>>>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always >>>>> be >>>>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are >>>>> actualy >>>>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that >>>>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job. >>>>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? >>>>> Only >>>>> to >>>> >>>>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do >>>>> it >>>>> that way is just kidding ourselves. >>>>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of >>>>> september. >>>>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My >>>>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself >>>>> and >>>>> my >>>> >>>>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in >>>>> Maine, >>>>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts. >>>>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment >>>>> rate, >>>> >>>>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what >>>>> the >>>>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the >>>>> Republicans or the independents. >>>>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis. >>>>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a >>>>> sighted >>>>> counterpart? >>>>> Of course it is. >>>>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split. >>>>> Solving the problem is the real issue. >>>>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer? >>>>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine" >>>>> >>>>> Ross >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Dennis, >>>>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my >>>>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With >>>>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer >>>>>> positions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Aser >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Aser, >>>>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you. >>>>>>> All the best, >>>>>>> Dennis >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino" >>>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of >>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>> though >>>>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> effort >>>>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> "lucky" >>>>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public >>>>>>>>> sector >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision >>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> law >>>>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job >>>>>>>>> interview >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> the Fed myself! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> James: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> target. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my >>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five >>>>>>>>> years. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>> practice for the federal government. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got >>>>>>>>> jobs >>>> >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> private firms. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own >>>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to >>>>>>>>> receive >>>>>>>>> offers >>>>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Noel Nightingale >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below >>>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>>>>>>> employed >>>>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep >>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>>> in >>>> >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>>>>>>> lawyers >>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>>>>>>> "astronomical." >>>>>>>>> *smile* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I >>>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > James: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>>>>>> > persons >>>>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>>>>>> > evidence >>>>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>>>>>> > lawyers, >>>>>>>>> > who are working. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>>>>>> > right >>>>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>>>>>> > bad >>>>>>>>> > economy penalty. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > Dave >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>>>>>> > ZERO job offers >>>>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>>>>>> > extremely low >>>>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>>>>>> > to discuss. >>>>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>>>>>> > career is to not >>>>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance >>>>>>>>> > >statistically, >>>>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>>>>>> > than ever >>>>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, >>>>>>>>> > >forget >>>>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>>>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>>>>>> > invest the >>>>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an >>>>>>>>> > >exception. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> > info for blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>>>>>>> ne.net< >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>> %0Ane.net >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>>>>>>> 0ed.gov >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>>>>>>> om< >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> %0Aom >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc >>>> global.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> blindlaw: >>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn >>>> er.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3268 - Release Date: >>>>> 11/20/10 >>>>> 07:34:00 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn er.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 07:35:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com From dbeitz at wiennergould.com Mon Nov 22 15:28:08 2010 From: dbeitz at wiennergould.com (Daniel K. Beitz) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:28:08 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><9B9B323CC33D4F2EB9887074C5373F86@Blind> Message-ID: Joe has the right idea. Work, work and more work is the only way to make it. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:44 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Man, I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but it would appear that if one did less posting on this list and did more job searching, a job offer might be more achievable! Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:34 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Employ yourself Acer and go out and get some clients!! Start pro bono if you have to as I did. You can do it just don't wait around for a job offer!! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ross Doerr Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:29 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Aser, keep at it and don't give up. And, as you can tell from all of these posts, "true lawyers" can, and will argue over anything and everything. Seriously, use your imagination and be professional at all times, sooner or later you will get employed, and you will no doubt be good at it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Aiser, however, get an honest job like digging ditches! > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aser Tolentino" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >>I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as I >> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability >> though >> many in my class have found it difficult to find work. >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg >> wrote: >> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>> > James: >>> > >>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> > persons >>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> > evidence >>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> > lawyers, >>> > who are working. >>> > >>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> > right >>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> > bad >>> > economy penalty. >>> > >>> > Dave >>> > >>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> > ZERO job offers >>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> > extremely low >>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> > to discuss. >>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> > career is to not >>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> > than ever >>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> > THE WAY IT IS! >>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> > invest the >>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > blindlaw mailing list >>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> > info for blindlaw: >>> > >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurl ey%40optonli >>> ne.net >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.n ightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-l aw%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtole ntino%40gmai l.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep .deeley%40in sightbb.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpol e%40roadrunn er.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 07:35:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-l aw%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com From sarahandfamily at live.com Mon Nov 22 22:45:56 2010 From: sarahandfamily at live.com (Sarah) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 16:45:56 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Message-ID: Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah From Daniel.Frye at ed.gov Tue Nov 23 12:11:32 2010 From: Daniel.Frye at ed.gov (Frye, Daniel) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 06:11:32 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov> Sarah: I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who have more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can tell you these things: Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. I don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. If you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based on your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but potentially rewarding journey. Be well. Daniel B. Frye, J.D. Management and Program Specialist Randolph-Sheppard Programs U.S. Department of Education Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services Rehabilitation Services Administration 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 Washington, DC  20202-2800 (202) 245-7308 office (202) 245-7591 fax (410) 241-7006 mobile daniel.frye at ed.gov -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.gov From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 23 13:13:46 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 05:13:46 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov> Message-ID: <1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server> Hello Sarah, My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law school in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I applied I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly admitted and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I can say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must apply. Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me off list if I can help. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frye, Daniel" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Sarah: I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who have more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can tell you these things: Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. I don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. If you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based on your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but potentially rewarding journey. Be well. Daniel B. Frye, J.D. Management and Program Specialist Randolph-Sheppard Programs U.S. Department of Education Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services Rehabilitation Services Administration 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 Washington, DC 20202-2800 (202) 245-7308 office (202) 245-7591 fax (410) 241-7006 mobile daniel.frye at ed.gov -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From joramsey at cox.net Tue Nov 23 13:28:33 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 08:28:33 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: <1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server> References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov> <1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: Hello Sarah: I graduated from law school in 2006 so I am a recent graduate. I did not set an arbitrary number of schools but I did choose schools where I thought I had a realistic chance of getting in and I also chose schools where I would like to live while attending law school. I ended up going to school in Virginia and taking the Florida Bar. I echo Dennis's statements that you should definitely make yourself look as good on paper as you can. Take care, John -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:14 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello Sarah, My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law school in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I applied I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly admitted and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I can say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must apply. Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me off list if I can help. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frye, Daniel" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Sarah: I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who have more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can tell you these things: Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. I don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. If you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based on your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but potentially rewarding journey. Be well. Daniel B. Frye, J.D. Management and Program Specialist Randolph-Sheppard Programs U.S. Department of Education Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services Rehabilitation Services Administration 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 Washington, DC 20202-2800 (202) 245-7308 office (202) 245-7591 fax (410) 241-7006 mobile daniel.frye at ed.gov -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.g ov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 23 15:48:53 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 09:48:53 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov> <1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945> when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going by? Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have their parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that doesn't have the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and the law school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello Sarah, My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law school in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I applied I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly admitted and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I can say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must apply. Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me off list if I can help. All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frye, Daniel" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Sarah: I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who have more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can tell you these things: Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. I don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. If you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based on your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but potentially rewarding journey. Be well. Daniel B. Frye, J.D. Management and Program Specialist Randolph-Sheppard Programs U.S. Department of Education Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services Rehabilitation Services Administration 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 Washington, DC 20202-2800 (202) 245-7308 office (202) 245-7591 fax (410) 241-7006 mobile daniel.frye at ed.gov -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 23 16:42:25 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 08:42:25 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov><1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server> <0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945> Message-ID: <200401cb8b2d$696d48b0$6601a8c0@server> Hello Blain, Where did you get the information that the parents of Harvard Law School students are paying for their educations any more than is true at all other law schools? I sincerely doubt it. When I looked recently, I was astonished to see that the highest ranked law schools and those toward the bottom of the rankings cost very close to the same. The rankings I was referring to would be the U.S. News rankings. My claim is that it is much easier to get a job as a lawyer when you go to a highly ranked law school, and I think this can be confirmed. This concern is more true today, then when I attended law school 20 years ago given the current high attorney unemployment. The advice I was given when I was applying to law school was to go to the one which admitted me that had the highest ranking. That worked out well for me and this is the same advice I would give today to my spouse, children and friends. My view is that law school is an investment like any other, and it seems sensible to me to invest in the entity which is most likely to give me the highest return on my investment, even though we can never know for sure about any investment in advance. Finally, I was not intending to insult any law schools in Texas by only citing the University of Texas at Austin. It has had a sterling reputation for at least the last 75 years, and when I last looked at the rankings I think it was in the top 10, and Sarah mentioned that she wanted to stay in Texas and that is the only reason I brought it up. I know there are many views on the topic of law school rankings, and I would enjoy hearing your thoughts. I look forward to hearing from you. Warmest regards, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going by? > Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have > their > parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that doesn't > have > the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and the > law > school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Hello Sarah, > My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law > school > in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. > It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I > applied > I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly > admitted > and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I > can > say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely > unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the > top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to > as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just > need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My > advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must > apply. > Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the > best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done > this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and > you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that > best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me > off > list if I can help. > All the best, > Dennis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frye, Daniel" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Sarah: > > I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who > have > more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in > 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different > now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable > testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can > tell > you these things: > > Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. > I > don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so > long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you > potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, > only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're > prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess > the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. > If > you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to > incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. > Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better > ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether > law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based > on > your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in > general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but > potentially > rewarding journey. > > Be well. > > > Daniel B. Frye, J.D. > Management and Program Specialist > Randolph-Sheppard Programs > U.S. Department of Education > Office of Special Education > and Rehabilitative Services > Rehabilitation Services Administration > 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 > Washington, DC 20202-2800 > (202) 245-7308 office > (202) 245-7591 fax > (410) 241-7006 mobile > daniel.frye at ed.gov > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available > in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees > waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank > you. > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 23 16:55:45 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:55:45 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov> <1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server> <0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945> <200401cb8b2d$696d48b0$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <46B8A49699D647F8A584BD78BE837C90@GPD945> when looking at a high ranked law school what are some things that you're looking at? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello Blain, Where did you get the information that the parents of Harvard Law School students are paying for their educations any more than is true at all other law schools? I sincerely doubt it. When I looked recently, I was astonished to see that the highest ranked law schools and those toward the bottom of the rankings cost very close to the same. The rankings I was referring to would be the U.S. News rankings. My claim is that it is much easier to get a job as a lawyer when you go to a highly ranked law school, and I think this can be confirmed. This concern is more true today, then when I attended law school 20 years ago given the current high attorney unemployment. The advice I was given when I was applying to law school was to go to the one which admitted me that had the highest ranking. That worked out well for me and this is the same advice I would give today to my spouse, children and friends. My view is that law school is an investment like any other, and it seems sensible to me to invest in the entity which is most likely to give me the highest return on my investment, even though we can never know for sure about any investment in advance. Finally, I was not intending to insult any law schools in Texas by only citing the University of Texas at Austin. It has had a sterling reputation for at least the last 75 years, and when I last looked at the rankings I think it was in the top 10, and Sarah mentioned that she wanted to stay in Texas and that is the only reason I brought it up. I know there are many views on the topic of law school rankings, and I would enjoy hearing your thoughts. I look forward to hearing from you. Warmest regards, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going by? > Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have > their > parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that doesn't > have > the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and the > law > school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Hello Sarah, > My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law > school > in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. > It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I > applied > I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly > admitted > and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I > can > say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely > unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the > top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to > as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just > need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My > advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must > apply. > Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the > best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done > this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and > you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that > best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me > off > list if I can help. > All the best, > Dennis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frye, Daniel" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Sarah: > > I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who > have > more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in > 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different > now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable > testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can > tell > you these things: > > Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. > I > don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so > long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you > potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, > only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're > prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess > the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. > If > you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to > incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. > Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better > ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether > law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based > on > your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in > general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but > potentially > rewarding journey. > > Be well. > > > Daniel B. Frye, J.D. > Management and Program Specialist > Randolph-Sheppard Programs > U.S. Department of Education > Office of Special Education > and Rehabilitative Services > Rehabilitation Services Administration > 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 > Washington, DC 20202-2800 > (202) 245-7308 office > (202) 245-7591 fax > (410) 241-7006 mobile > daniel.frye at ed.gov > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available > in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees > waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank > you. > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From joramsey at cox.net Tue Nov 23 17:02:00 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:02:00 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: <46B8A49699D647F8A584BD78BE837C90@GPD945> References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov><1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server><0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945><200401cb8b2d$696d48b0$6601a8c0@server> <46B8A49699D647F8A584BD78BE837C90@GPD945> Message-ID: <9F0CAA95B8804057982DA64DE529CBAE@noneeb869fea9a> One of the most looked at factors is the school's bar passage rate for first time takers. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:56 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information when looking at a high ranked law school what are some things that you're looking at? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello Blain, Where did you get the information that the parents of Harvard Law School students are paying for their educations any more than is true at all other law schools? I sincerely doubt it. When I looked recently, I was astonished to see that the highest ranked law schools and those toward the bottom of the rankings cost very close to the same. The rankings I was referring to would be the U.S. News rankings. My claim is that it is much easier to get a job as a lawyer when you go to a highly ranked law school, and I think this can be confirmed. This concern is more true today, then when I attended law school 20 years ago given the current high attorney unemployment. The advice I was given when I was applying to law school was to go to the one which admitted me that had the highest ranking. That worked out well for me and this is the same advice I would give today to my spouse, children and friends. My view is that law school is an investment like any other, and it seems sensible to me to invest in the entity which is most likely to give me the highest return on my investment, even though we can never know for sure about any investment in advance. Finally, I was not intending to insult any law schools in Texas by only citing the University of Texas at Austin. It has had a sterling reputation for at least the last 75 years, and when I last looked at the rankings I think it was in the top 10, and Sarah mentioned that she wanted to stay in Texas and that is the only reason I brought it up. I know there are many views on the topic of law school rankings, and I would enjoy hearing your thoughts. I look forward to hearing from you. Warmest regards, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going by? > Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have > their > parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that doesn't > have > the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and the > law > school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Hello Sarah, > My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law > school > in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. > It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I > applied > I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly > admitted > and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I > can > say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely > unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the > top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to > as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just > need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My > advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must > apply. > Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the > best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done > this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and > you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that > best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me > off > list if I can help. > All the best, > Dennis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frye, Daniel" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Sarah: > > I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who > have > more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in > 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different > now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable > testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can > tell > you these things: > > Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. > I > don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so > long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you > potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, > only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're > prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess > the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. > If > you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to > incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. > Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better > ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether > law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based > on > your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in > general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but > potentially > rewarding journey. > > Be well. > > > Daniel B. Frye, J.D. > Management and Program Specialist > Randolph-Sheppard Programs > U.S. Department of Education > Office of Special Education > and Rehabilitative Services > Rehabilitation Services Administration > 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 > Washington, DC 20202-2800 > (202) 245-7308 office > (202) 245-7591 fax > (410) 241-7006 mobile > daniel.frye at ed.gov > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available > in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees > waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank > you. > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40ed.g ov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa sktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sa sktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Tue Nov 23 17:07:27 2010 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:07:27 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: <9F0CAA95B8804057982DA64DE529CBAE@noneeb869fea9a> References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov><1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server><0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945><200401cb8b2d$696d48b0$6601a8c0@server> <46B8A49699D647F8A584BD78BE837C90@GPD945> <9F0CAA95B8804057982DA64DE529CBAE@noneeb869fea9a> Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E788@EVS02.central.pima.gov> At least when I went, another suggestion was to pick a school (or schools) in the general geographic area one thought he or she might want to set up practice - for example, given the differences in family law and water law provisions here in Arizona, it was though to be wiser to attend a school in this area of the country so that a person could get more exposure to those unique laws. Just a thought, though. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Ramsey Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 10:02 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information One of the most looked at factors is the school's bar passage rate for first time takers. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:56 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information when looking at a high ranked law school what are some things that you're looking at? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello Blain, Where did you get the information that the parents of Harvard Law School students are paying for their educations any more than is true at all other law schools? I sincerely doubt it. When I looked recently, I was astonished to see that the highest ranked law schools and those toward the bottom of the rankings cost very close to the same. The rankings I was referring to would be the U.S. News rankings. My claim is that it is much easier to get a job as a lawyer when you go to a highly ranked law school, and I think this can be confirmed. This concern is more true today, then when I attended law school 20 years ago given the current high attorney unemployment. The advice I was given when I was applying to law school was to go to the one which admitted me that had the highest ranking. That worked out well for me and this is the same advice I would give today to my spouse, children and friends. My view is that law school is an investment like any other, and it seems sensible to me to invest in the entity which is most likely to give me the highest return on my investment, even though we can never know for sure about any investment in advance. Finally, I was not intending to insult any law schools in Texas by only citing the University of Texas at Austin. It has had a sterling reputation for at least the last 75 years, and when I last looked at the rankings I think it was in the top 10, and Sarah mentioned that she wanted to stay in Texas and that is the only reason I brought it up. I know there are many views on the topic of law school rankings, and I would enjoy hearing your thoughts. I look forward to hearing from you. Warmest regards, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going by? > Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have > their > parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that doesn't > have > the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and the > law > school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Hello Sarah, > My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law > school > in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to me. > It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I > applied > I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly > admitted > and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back I > can > say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely > unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of the > top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get in to > as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will just > need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. My > advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must > apply. > Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are the > best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have done > this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications and > you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package that > best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact me > off > list if I can help. > All the best, > Dennis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frye, Daniel" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Sarah: > > I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who > have > more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school in > 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are different > now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around equitable > testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I can > tell > you these things: > > Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary number. > I > don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications to, so > long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you > potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. Finally, > only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're > prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I guess > the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a factor. > If > you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to > incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply elsewhere. > Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but better > ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about whether > law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw based > on > your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives in > general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but > potentially > rewarding journey. > > Be well. > > > Daniel B. Frye, J.D. > Management and Program Specialist > Randolph-Sheppard Programs > U.S. Department of Education > Office of Special Education > and Rehabilitative Services > Rehabilitation Services Administration > 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 > Washington, DC 20202-2800 > (202) 245-7308 office > (202) 245-7591 fax > (410) 241-7006 mobile > daniel.frye at ed.gov > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available > in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees > waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank > you. > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40 ed.g ov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 0sbc global.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% 40sa sktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 0sbc global.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% 40sa sktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox .net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov From awilusa at yahoo.com Wed Nov 24 17:06:28 2010 From: awilusa at yahoo.com (awilusa at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:06:28 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a year. I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies require experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, I am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move to attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen years in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession that would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such as the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I would like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind lawyer should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring process. the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the legal profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on the creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the "lucky" one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as I believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and law degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview with the Fed myself! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James: I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on target. I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I now practice for the federal government. I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at private firms. I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers of employment to practice in the private sector. Noel Nightingale -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who are blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless they can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because my point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I have been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers who were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to "astronomical." *smile* -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with Dennis' post wholeheartedly. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > James: > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > persons > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > evidence > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > lawyers, > who are working. > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > right > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > bad > economy penalty. > > Dave > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > ZERO job offers > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > extremely low > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > to discuss. > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > career is to not > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > than ever > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > THE WAY IT IS! > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > invest the > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 0ed.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com From dbeitz at wiennergould.com Tue Nov 23 18:14:57 2010 From: dbeitz at wiennergould.com (Daniel K. Beitz) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:14:57 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many lawyers get into is having to pay back loans. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 23 18:26:02 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:26:02 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: Message-ID: <5474A8DCA2744DA48C0BB7EB89AEF78E@GPD945> yeah and when the average is $10000 per year equaling $30000 for the three year law degree plus your four year undergraduate program that is about $2000 per year, Equaling $8000 after four years so in total after a law degree and a undergraduate degree you're looking at $39000. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many lawyers get into is having to pay back loans. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 23 18:28:34 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:28:34 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> Message-ID: <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one year of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law firm. A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that one year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like you then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might pay for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to the firm. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a year. I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies require experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, I am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move to attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen years in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession that would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such as the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I would like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind lawyer should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring process. the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the legal profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on the creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the "lucky" one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as I believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and law degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview with the Fed myself! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys James: I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on target. I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I now practice for the federal government. I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at private firms. I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers of employment to practice in the private sector. Noel Nightingale -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of James Weisberg Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again now, between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who are blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless they can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because my point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I have been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers who were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to "astronomical." *smile* -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree with Dennis' post wholeheartedly. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > James: > > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind > persons > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my > evidence > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind > lawyers, > who are working. > > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good > right > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the > bad > economy penalty. > > Dave > > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, > ZERO job offers > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the > extremely low > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be > to discuss. > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a > career is to not > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class > than ever > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS > THE WAY IT IS! > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to > invest the > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli ne.net > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 0ed.gov _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c om _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From jsorozco at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 18:39:30 2010 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:39:30 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: <5474A8DCA2744DA48C0BB7EB89AEF78E@GPD945> References: <5474A8DCA2744DA48C0BB7EB89AEF78E@GPD945> Message-ID: <70E7CE46C3BF4D23990774A39B3EF2FD@Rufus> Ten thousand a year for law school in Canada? Wow, my program was charging a little over three times that had I gone. If I change my tune about law school, I'm headed north! LOL Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:26 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information yeah and when the average is $10000 per year equaling $30000 for the three year law degree plus your four year undergraduate program that is about $2000 per year, Equaling $8000 after four years so in total after a law degree and a undergraduate degree you're looking at $39000. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many lawyers get into is having to pay back loans. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz %40wiennergo uld.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.de utscher%40sasktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com From goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 23 18:42:19 2010 From: goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net (Sarah Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:42:19 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <5474A8DCA2744DA48C0BB7EB89AEF78E@GPD945> Message-ID: <006901cb8b3e$292ba330$6701a8c0@computer2> Blaine, I know you're in Canada, but in this country the average law school tuition is a lot higher than that -- over $30,000 per year. (private schools being around $40,000 and public varying from around $15,000 to around $25,000). Sarah Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > yeah and when the average is $10000 per year equaling $30000 for the three > year law degree plus your four year undergraduate program that is about > $2000 per year, Equaling $8000 after four years so in total after a law > degree and a undergraduate degree you're looking at $39000. > > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel K. Beitz" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:14 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many lawyers get > into is having to pay back loans. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Daniel K. Beitz > Wienner & Gould, P.C. > 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 > Rochester, MI 48307 > Phone: (248) 841-9405 > Fax: (248) 652-2729 > dbeitz at wiennergould.com > This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email > messages > attached > to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If > you are > not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering > this > email > to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > copying, > or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or > attached to > this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication > in > error, > please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by > telephoning > us at (248) 841-9400. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available > in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees > waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank > you. > > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo > uld.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcglobal.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Tue Nov 23 19:22:55 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:22:55 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <5474A8DCA2744DA48C0BB7EB89AEF78E@GPD945> <70E7CE46C3BF4D23990774A39B3EF2FD@Rufus> Message-ID: <3BEE2109395440C7848BC1FDB27D6F43@GPD945> That was Saskatchewan however. that included textbooks too. I'm not sure what the other schools charge, larger centres might charge a little more. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Ten thousand a year for law school in Canada? Wow, my program was charging a little over three times that had I gone. If I change my tune about law school, I'm headed north! LOL Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:26 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information yeah and when the average is $10000 per year equaling $30000 for the three year law degree plus your four year undergraduate program that is about $2000 per year, Equaling $8000 after four years so in total after a law degree and a undergraduate degree you're looking at $39000. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many lawyers get into is having to pay back loans. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. Sarah _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz %40wiennergo uld.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.de utscher%40sasktel.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz co%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From clucas at disabilitypride.com Tue Nov 23 19:36:55 2010 From: clucas at disabilitypride.com (clucas at disabilitypride.com) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 19:36:55 +0000 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Message-ID: <1431637062-1290541015-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-211350882-@bda611.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I have found this thread to be interesting. I am statutorily blind, deaf and have a severe physical disability. I had a job coming out of law school, but recently had to stop working for pay and now volunteer. This is due to my physical disability and my need for attendant care. I don't think the unemployment rate for blind attorneys is any higher than that for attorneys with severe physical disabilities. Someone posted about the costs of trying to practice within SGA. This really is not difficult. Most of the costs listed would be work expenses. The individual would simply need to incorporate to have most of those costs covered by the business entity. Carrie Ann Lucas Sent on the Now Network™ from my Sprint® BlackBerry From rumpole at roadrunner.com Tue Nov 23 19:40:51 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:40:51 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> Message-ID: <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> Good point Blain. IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to U.S. graduates. I like it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over > American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one > year > of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law > firm. > A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that > one > year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like you > then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might > pay > for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to the > firm. > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired > my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a > year. > I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in > some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the > interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies > require > experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, I > am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move to > attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen > years > in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession > that > would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such > as > the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I > would > like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated > blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind > lawyer > should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, > participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these > experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for > employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring > process. > the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid > should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the legal > profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on the > creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage > blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Weisberg > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort > of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the > "lucky" > one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as > I > believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and > law > degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview > with > the Fed myself! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > James: > > I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on > target. > > I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a > nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work > during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I > now > practice for the federal government. > > I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at > private firms. > > I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience > tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers > of employment to practice in the private sector. > > Noel Nightingale > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again > now, > between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed > and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who > are > blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless > they > can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my > calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because > my > point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I > have > been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the > credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for > something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind > lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers > who > were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to > "astronomical." > *smile* > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree > with > Dennis' post wholeheartedly. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Andrews > Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > >> James: >> >> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >> persons >> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >> evidence >> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >> lawyers, >> who are working. >> >> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >> right >> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >> bad >> economy penalty. >> >> Dave >> >> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >> ZERO job offers >> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >> extremely low >> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >> to discuss. >> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >> career is to not >> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >> than ever >> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >> THE WAY IT IS! >> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >> invest the >> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli > ne.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 > 0ed.gov > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 07:34:00 From joramsey at cox.net Tue Nov 23 20:01:09 2010 From: joramsey at cox.net (John Ramsey) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:01:09 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Practicing through apprenticeship Message-ID: <13803E4FFA034A0F87AF34E45FCEF364@noneeb869fea9a> Ross: There are some States that still allow for an apprenticeship style bar membership. For example, I believe Virginia still allows for a person to become licensed if they work under an attorney for five years. I am told a few states have some variation of this. Also, I believe it is Wisconsin that does not require a bar exam at all for Wisconsin law grads. Take care, John From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 23 22:59:03 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:59:03 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov><1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server><0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945><200401cb8b2d$696d48b0$6601a8c0@server><46B8A49699D647F8A584BD78BE837C90@GPD945><9F0CAA95B8804057982DA64DE529CBAE@noneeb869fea9a> <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E788@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Message-ID: <2f6401cb8b62$06ab8130$6601a8c0@server> Hi Susan, I agree that this is a good idea for the reasons you stated, particularly if one has chosen not to attend a top 10 or 20 law school. The trick for all law students is getting a summer internship during law school so as to secure a permanent job offer. As a result, it is important to be at a law school where the firms in your chosen geographic area come to do interviews. Did you go to law school in Arizona? All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Kelly" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > At least when I went, another suggestion was to pick a school (or > schools) in the general geographic area one thought he or she might want > to set up practice - for example, given the differences in family law > and water law provisions here in Arizona, it was though to be wiser to > attend a school in this area of the country so that a person could get > more exposure to those unique laws. Just a thought, though. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of John Ramsey > Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 10:02 AM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > One of the most looked at factors is the school's bar passage rate for > first > time takers. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:56 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > when looking at a high ranked law school what are some things that > you're > looking at? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:42 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Hello Blain, > Where did you get the information that the parents of Harvard Law School > students are paying for their educations any more than is true at all > other > law schools? I sincerely doubt it. When I looked recently, I was > astonished to see that the highest ranked law schools and those toward > the > bottom of the rankings cost very close to the same. The rankings I was > referring to would be the U.S. News rankings. My claim is that it is > much > easier to get a job as a lawyer when you go to a highly ranked law > school, > and I think this can be confirmed. This concern is more true today, > then > when I attended law school 20 years ago given the current high attorney > unemployment. The advice I was given when I was applying to law school > was > to go to the one which admitted me that had the highest ranking. That > worked out well for me and this is the same advice I would give today to > my > spouse, children and friends. My view is that law school is an > investment > like any other, and it seems sensible to me to invest in the entity > which is > most likely to give me the highest return on my investment, even though > we > can never know for sure about any investment in advance. Finally, I was > not > intending to insult any law schools in Texas by only citing the > University > of Texas at Austin. It has had a sterling reputation for at least the > last > 75 years, and when I last looked at the rankings I think it was in the > top > 10, and Sarah mentioned that she wanted to stay in Texas and that is the > only reason I brought it up. I know there are many views on the topic > of > law school rankings, and I would enjoy hearing your thoughts. I look > forward to hearing from you. > Warmest regards, > Dennis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:48 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > >> when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going > by? >> Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have >> their >> parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that > doesn't >> have >> the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and > the >> law >> school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dennis Clark" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information >> >> >> Hello Sarah, >> My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law >> school >> in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to > me. >> It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I >> applied >> I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly >> admitted >> and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back > I >> can >> say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely >> unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of > the >> top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get > in to >> as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will > just >> need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. > My >> advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must >> apply. >> Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are > the >> best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have > done >> this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications > and >> you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package > that >> best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact > me >> off >> list if I can help. >> All the best, >> Dennis >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frye, Daniel" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information >> >> >> Sarah: >> >> I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who >> have >> more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school > in >> 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are > different >> now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around > equitable >> testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I > can >> tell >> you these things: >> >> Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary > number. >> I >> don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications > to, so >> long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you >> potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. > Finally, >> only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're >> prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I > guess >> the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a > factor. >> If >> you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to >> incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply > elsewhere. >> Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but > better >> ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about > whether >> law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw > based >> on >> your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives > in >> general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but >> potentially >> rewarding journey. >> >> Be well. >> >> >> Daniel B. Frye, J.D. >> Management and Program Specialist >> Randolph-Sheppard Programs >> U.S. Department of Education >> Office of Special Education >> and Rehabilitative Services >> Rehabilitation Services Administration >> 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 >> Washington, DC 20202-2800 >> (202) 245-7308 office >> (202) 245-7591 fax >> (410) 241-7006 mobile >> daniel.frye at ed.gov >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On >> Behalf Of Sarah >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information >> >> Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next > June. I >> am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's > available >> in >> an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking > the >> test? >> My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this >> information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees >> waiver >> for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I > will >> not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. > Thank >> you. >> Sarah >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40 > ed.g > ov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > 0sbc > global.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > 0sbc > global.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sa > sktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox > .net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 23 23:04:12 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:04:12 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: Message-ID: <2f6a01cb8b62$bf46dfa0$6601a8c0@server> Hello Daniel, I totally agree. If one can get through law school, or any other degree program, without owing loans, this will put the student way ahead of those who have those monthly payments looming. Best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many lawyers get > into is having to pay back loans. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Daniel K. Beitz > Wienner & Gould, P.C. > 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 > Rochester, MI 48307 > Phone: (248) 841-9405 > Fax: (248) 652-2729 > dbeitz at wiennergould.com > This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email > messages > attached > to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If > you are > not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering > this > email > to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > copying, > or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or > attached to > this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication > in > error, > please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by > telephoning > us at (248) 841-9400. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's available > in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees > waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank > you. > > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo > uld.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 23 23:07:02 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:07:02 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information References: <5474A8DCA2744DA48C0BB7EB89AEF78E@GPD945> <70E7CE46C3BF4D23990774A39B3EF2FD@Rufus> Message-ID: <2f7201cb8b63$24665320$6601a8c0@server> Hi Joe, I too was stunned when I saw the $10,000 tuition. When I started law school in 1988, the tuition was $22,500 and it went up substantially each year. Best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > Ten thousand a year for law school in Canada? Wow, my program was > charging > a little over three times that had I gone. If I change my tune about law > school, I'm headed north! LOL > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:26 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > yeah and when the average is $10000 per year equaling $30000 > for the three > year law degree plus your four year undergraduate program that is about > $2000 per year, Equaling $8000 after four years so in total after a law > degree and a undergraduate degree you're looking at $39000. > > > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel K. Beitz" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:14 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Free tuition is a great idea, because one of the troubles many > lawyers get > into is having to pay back loans. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Daniel K. Beitz > Wienner & Gould, P.C. > 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 > Rochester, MI 48307 > Phone: (248) 841-9405 > Fax: (248) 652-2729 > dbeitz at wiennergould.com > This email transmission and any documents, files or previous > email messages > attached > to it may contain confidential information that is legally > privileged. If > you are > not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for > delivering this > email > to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > copying, > or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or > attached to > this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this > communication in > error, > please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this > email or by > telephoning > us at (248) 841-9400. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sarah > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM > To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org > Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's > next June. I > am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's > available in > an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the > test? > My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this > information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition > and fees waiver > for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas > so I will > not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off > list. Thank you. > > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz > %40wiennergo > uld.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.de > utscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz > co%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From devinenora at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 23:08:37 2010 From: devinenora at gmail.com (Nora Devine) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:08:37 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try California too!! California Dept. of Rehabilitation also has an education program for residents with disabilities that can usually help pay tuition. I don't know what it takes to qualify as a resident (I imagine 6 months or so), but once you do, they can usually pay tuition at the rate of a state-run law school. These days that covers most private schools' tuition too! There are also some financial requirements, but I'm not sure what they would be for your case. Here's their website http://www.rehab.cahwnet.gov/ - Nora -- Best Regards, Nora Devine Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 University of San Francisco School of Law Tel: 510-508-4209 devinenora at gmail.com in an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking the test? >    My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees waiver for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I will not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. Thank you. >    Sarah > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/devinenora%40gmail.com > -- Best Regards, Nora Devine Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 University of San Francisco School of Law Tel: 510-508-4209 devinenora at gmail.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 24 01:23:48 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:23:48 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? In-Reply-To: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> Message-ID: <71A6097E1A464C4BA6248EBD0A31FDF5@spike> the process of publishing notice for an LLC or any other type of corporation depends on your state laws as corporations and LLCs are registered in the state where they are doing business or where their directors/partners choose to register them. For that reason the specific procedures would not be covered in Federal publications. In establishing a business it is usually advisable to consult with an attorney or business consultant prior to proceeding so your options can be considered thoroughly and you don't make costly mistakes. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 2:55 PM Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? > Hi all: > Just wondering, is it true that if you're going to form an LLC you require > a publication to be made in 2 newspapers? > That's what I heard, but don't know if its true because it hasn't been > mentioned in any of the government resources I look at. > > Anyone have any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From stevep.deeley at insightbb.com Wed Nov 24 01:48:34 2010 From: stevep.deeley at insightbb.com (Steve P. Deeley) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:48:34 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> Message-ID: <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> That is because Canada is a socialist nation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Good point Blain. > IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to > U.S. graduates. > I like it. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >> year >> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >> firm. >> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >> one >> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like >> you >> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >> pay >> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to the >> firm. >> >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired >> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >> year. >> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >> require >> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, >> I >> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move >> to >> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >> years >> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >> that >> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >> as >> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >> would >> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >> lawyer >> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >> process. >> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the >> legal >> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on >> the >> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: James Weisberg >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >> effort >> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >> "lucky" >> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >> as >> I >> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >> law >> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >> with >> the Fed myself! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> James: >> >> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >> target. >> >> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >> now >> practice for the federal government. >> >> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >> private firms. >> >> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >> offers >> of employment to practice in the private sector. >> >> Noel Nightingale >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >> now, >> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >> employed >> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >> are >> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >> they >> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >> my >> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >> have >> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >> blind >> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >> who >> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >> "astronomical." >> *smile* >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >> with >> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: David Andrews >> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> >>> James: >>> >>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>> persons >>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>> evidence >>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>> lawyers, >>> who are working. >>> >>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>> right >>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>> bad >>> economy penalty. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>> ZERO job offers >>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>> extremely low >>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>> to discuss. >>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>> career is to not >>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>> than ever >>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>> THE WAY IT IS! >>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>> invest the >>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for blindlaw: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >> ne.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >> 0ed.gov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 > 07:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 14:34:00 From jorgeapaez at mac.com Wed Nov 24 01:51:43 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:51:43 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> Message-ID: <55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com> Out rages! Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? Unless of course its some sort of internship. On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > That is because Canada is a socialist nation. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Good point Blain. >> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >> U.S. graduates. >> I like it. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>> year >>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>> firm. >>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >>> one >>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like you >>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>> pay >>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to the >>> firm. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired >>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>> year. >>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>> require >>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, I >>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move to >>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>> years >>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>> that >>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >>> as >>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>> would >>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>> lawyer >>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>> process. >>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the legal >>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on the >>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>> persons >>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>> evidence >>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>> lawyers, >>>> who are working. >>>> >>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>> right >>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>> bad >>>> economy penalty. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>> ZERO job offers >>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>> extremely low >>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>> to discuss. >>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>> career is to not >>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>> than ever >>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>> invest the >>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 14:34:00 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 24 02:19:28 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 18:19:28 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945><1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> Message-ID: <301401cb8b7e$06660300$6601a8c0@server> Steve If Canada is a socialist nation maybe we should consider going in that direction. They have some good things going on there. Israel is also a socialist nation, and there are some good things there too. The more I write the more I realize that socialism is the way to go. Let's give it a try. Can it possibly be a worse economic system than the one we have. Granted we have semi-socialism already, in that when businesses succeed, they get to keep all their money because they create jobs (in China). When they fail, we the tax payers get to pick up their losses. I can't deny that rescuing multimillionaires does give me a warm fuzzy feeling, but I am willing to give up this altruistic defect in my personality if it will help the country. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > That is because Canada is a socialist nation. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Good point Blain. >> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >> U.S. graduates. >> I like it. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>> year >>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>> firm. >>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >>> one >>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like >>> you >>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>> pay >>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to >>> the >>> firm. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and >>> acquired >>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>> year. >>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>> require >>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, >>> I >>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move >>> to >>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>> years >>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>> that >>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >>> as >>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>> would >>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>> lawyer >>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>> process. >>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the >>> legal >>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on >>> the >>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>> persons >>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>> evidence >>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>> lawyers, >>>> who are working. >>>> >>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>> right >>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>> bad >>>> economy penalty. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>> ZERO job offers >>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>> extremely low >>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>> to discuss. >>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>> career is to not >>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>> than ever >>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>> invest the >>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 14:34:00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Wed Nov 24 03:04:04 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 21:04:04 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> <301401cb8b7e$06660300$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: the only problem econimicly is when American businesses don't do that well Canadian businesses pay as well. Because we share everything, or almost everything, the econimy effects us - our dollar is a little lower then the American but if we were higher that means that American people aren't making that much money therefore not coming and spending it in Canadian retail. Socialism isn't that bad of a thing-our health care we still get to pick what doctors we see, what hospital we choose to go to if need be, ETC. Not everything is "free" so we still pay for things. As a person who pays taxes, 20% toward health care and school districts, we get to decide what we want and when the federal government steps in Canadian people get a little upset if it isn't what we want. Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Steve If Canada is a socialist nation maybe we should consider going in that direction. They have some good things going on there. Israel is also a socialist nation, and there are some good things there too. The more I write the more I realize that socialism is the way to go. Let's give it a try. Can it possibly be a worse economic system than the one we have. Granted we have semi-socialism already, in that when businesses succeed, they get to keep all their money because they create jobs (in China). When they fail, we the tax payers get to pick up their losses. I can't deny that rescuing multimillionaires does give me a warm fuzzy feeling, but I am willing to give up this altruistic defect in my personality if it will help the country. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > That is because Canada is a socialist nation. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Good point Blain. >> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >> U.S. graduates. >> I like it. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>> year >>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>> firm. >>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >>> one >>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like >>> you >>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>> pay >>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to >>> the >>> firm. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and >>> acquired >>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>> year. >>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>> require >>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, >>> I >>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move >>> to >>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>> years >>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>> that >>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >>> as >>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>> would >>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>> lawyer >>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>> process. >>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the >>> legal >>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on >>> the >>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>> persons >>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>> evidence >>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>> lawyers, >>>> who are working. >>>> >>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>> right >>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>> bad >>>> economy penalty. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>> ZERO job offers >>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>> extremely low >>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>> to discuss. >>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>> career is to not >>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>> than ever >>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>> invest the >>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 14:34:00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net Wed Nov 24 03:26:39 2010 From: b.m.deutscher at sasktel.net (Blaine Deutscher) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 21:26:39 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> <55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com> Message-ID: <1327D06BB7E944038AAE13C9604C4027@GPD945> Well a lot of Lawyers that have past the bar say that they got the most experience from when they did their year of artickling. You can be book smart but until you put that into practickle knolidge it's hard to figure out. Here in Saskatchewan when people do their final year of school they start looking for firms to take them to gain the experience needed to be a successful lawyer. you get to be the gofer (go for this go for that). Blaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Out rages! Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? Unless of course its some sort of internship. On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > That is because Canada is a socialist nation. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Good point Blain. >> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >> U.S. graduates. >> I like it. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>> year >>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>> firm. >>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >>> one >>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like >>> you >>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>> pay >>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to >>> the >>> firm. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired >>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>> year. >>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>> require >>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, >>> I >>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move >>> to >>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>> years >>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>> that >>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >>> as >>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>> would >>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>> lawyer >>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>> process. >>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the >>> legal >>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on >>> the >>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>> effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>> as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>> at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>> offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>> employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>> my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>> blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>> persons >>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>> evidence >>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>> lawyers, >>>> who are working. >>>> >>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>> right >>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>> bad >>>> economy penalty. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>> ZERO job offers >>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>> extremely low >>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>> to discuss. >>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>> career is to not >>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>> than ever >>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>> invest the >>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>> ne.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 > 02:35:00 > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 > 14:34:00 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net From rumpole at roadrunner.com Wed Nov 24 14:17:08 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 09:17:08 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945><1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901><7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC><55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com> <1327D06BB7E944038AAE13C9604C4027@GPD945> Message-ID: <1F5D853D36ED43B48939E7A85C32181F@none8a46117901> Socialism? On an NFB sponsored List? You guys realize that, once the Democrats and Republicans finish perging their ranks of descenters to the recent public vote, they will take a dim view of this discussion!!! I hereby declare myself to be a registered Cynic. "Cynic" N. "A blaggard who insists on seeing things as they really are instead of how they ought to be. Hence the custom among the ancient Cythians of plucking out the eyes of a cynic to improve their vision. A. Bierce "The Devil's Dictionary" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:26 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Well a lot of Lawyers that have past the bar say that they got the most > experience from when they did their year of artickling. You can be book > smart but until you put that into practickle knolidge it's hard to figure > out. Here in Saskatchewan when people do their final year of school they > start looking for firms to take them to gain the experience needed to be a > successful lawyer. you get to be the gofer (go for this go for that). > Blaine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:51 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > > Out rages! > Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? > Unless of course its some sort of internship. > > > On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> That is because Canada is a socialist nation. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Good point Blain. >>> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >>> U.S. graduates. >>> I like it. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" >>> >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>>> year >>>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>>> firm. >>>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that >>>> that >>>> one >>>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like >>>> you >>>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>>> pay >>>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to >>>> the >>>> firm. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and >>>> acquired >>>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>>> year. >>>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment >>>> in >>>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>>> require >>>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other >>>> obligations, >>>> I >>>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move >>>> to >>>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>>> years >>>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>>> that >>>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges >>>> such >>>> as >>>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>>> would >>>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly >>>> graduated >>>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>>> lawyer >>>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>>> process. >>>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal >>>> aid >>>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the >>>> legal >>>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on >>>> the >>>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>> effort >>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>> "lucky" >>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>>> as >>>> I >>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>>> law >>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>> with >>>> the Fed myself! >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>> target. >>>> >>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. >>>> I >>>> now >>>> practice for the federal government. >>>> >>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs >>>> at >>>> private firms. >>>> >>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>> offers >>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>> >>>> Noel Nightingale >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>> now, >>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>> employed >>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those >>>> who >>>> are >>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>>> they >>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in >>>> my >>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established >>>> because >>>> my >>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>>> have >>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>> blind >>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind >>>> lawyers >>>> who >>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>> "astronomical." >>>> *smile* >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>> with >>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> persons >>>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> evidence >>>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> lawyers, >>>>> who are working. >>>>> >>>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> right >>>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> bad >>>>> economy penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> ZERO job offers >>>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> extremely low >>>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> to discuss. >>>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> career is to not >>>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> than ever >>>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> invest the >>>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>> ne.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>> 0ed.gov >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >>> 07:34:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 >> 02:35:00 >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >> 14:34:00 >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 07:34:00 From rumpole at roadrunner.com Wed Nov 24 14:19:22 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 09:19:22 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Blind Attorney Message-ID: <607397D08AA84B9397B570219CF9C957@none8a46117901> Job posting for the Pennsylvainia area: * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA 11-WDPA-AUSA-01 Application Deadline is Friday, December 23, 2010. [ http://www.justice.gov/oarm/jobs/11-wdpa-ausa-01.htm ] _______________________________________ Ross A. Doerr Esquire Admitted to Practice in Maine and New Hampshire F. Ct. Admission: ME. N.H. From withat at msn.com Wed Nov 24 14:47:20 2010 From: withat at msn.com (Johnston) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 06:47:20 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities References: Message-ID: Hi Nora, Lewis & Clark Law School in Portland is as accommodating as anyone could hope. I don't think it's technically called priority registration, but they will make sure you are put in the classes you need. It is a small enough school that they deal with students with specific needs on an individual basis. They will also reserve a spot in the classroom that is most accommodating of your eyesight (front row, whatever), and their disability resource center is absolutely fantastic at timely converting texts into alternative format. They will even pay for a fellow student to (anonymously) take and provide you class notes. Extra time on exams is not an issue at all. I couldn't give them a higher recommendation. Good luck! Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nora Devine" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 6:31 PM Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with Disabilities > Hi! > > Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities > priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed > to register for classes before all other students. > > My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision > and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe > eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority > registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a > course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also > often left with very little time to convert course materials and text > books. > > Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? > I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would > like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. > > Thanks so much for you help!! > - Nora > > -- > Best Regards, > > Nora Devine > Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 > University of San Francisco School of Law > Tel: 510-508-4209 > devinenora at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/withat%40msn.com > From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Wed Nov 24 14:57:44 2010 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 07:57:44 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information In-Reply-To: <2f6401cb8b62$06ab8130$6601a8c0@server> References: <9CB28F0CFC7F7447BFFB2BD103499D1C7CCD48D4F0@EDUPTCEXMB03.ed.gov><1fe601cb8b10$43a92fd0$6601a8c0@server><0E70249CD73B498E8BB0606078388FC9@GPD945><200401cb8b2d$696d48b0$6601a8c0@server><46B8A49699D647F8A584BD78BE837C90@GPD945><9F0CAA95B8804057982DA64DE529CBAE@noneeb869fea9a> <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E788@EVS02.central.pima.gov> <2f6401cb8b62$06ab8130$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E792@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Yes, I did attend UA. Seems like ages, giggle! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Clark Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 3:59 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information Hi Susan, I agree that this is a good idea for the reasons you stated, particularly if one has chosen not to attend a top 10 or 20 law school. The trick for all law students is getting a summer internship during law school so as to secure a permanent job offer. As a result, it is important to be at a law school where the firms in your chosen geographic area come to do interviews. Did you go to law school in Arizona? All the best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Kelly" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > At least when I went, another suggestion was to pick a school (or > schools) in the general geographic area one thought he or she might want > to set up practice - for example, given the differences in family law > and water law provisions here in Arizona, it was though to be wiser to > attend a school in this area of the country so that a person could get > more exposure to those unique laws. Just a thought, though. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of John Ramsey > Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 10:02 AM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > One of the most looked at factors is the school's bar passage rate for > first > time takers. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of Blaine Deutscher > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:56 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > when looking at a high ranked law school what are some things that > you're > looking at? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Clark" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:42 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > > Hello Blain, > Where did you get the information that the parents of Harvard Law School > students are paying for their educations any more than is true at all > other > law schools? I sincerely doubt it. When I looked recently, I was > astonished to see that the highest ranked law schools and those toward > the > bottom of the rankings cost very close to the same. The rankings I was > referring to would be the U.S. News rankings. My claim is that it is > much > easier to get a job as a lawyer when you go to a highly ranked law > school, > and I think this can be confirmed. This concern is more true today, > then > when I attended law school 20 years ago given the current high attorney > unemployment. The advice I was given when I was applying to law school > was > to go to the one which admitted me that had the highest ranking. That > worked out well for me and this is the same advice I would give today to > my > spouse, children and friends. My view is that law school is an > investment > like any other, and it seems sensible to me to invest in the entity > which is > most likely to give me the highest return on my investment, even though > we > can never know for sure about any investment in advance. Finally, I was > not > intending to insult any law schools in Texas by only citing the > University > of Texas at Austin. It has had a sterling reputation for at least the > last > 75 years, and when I last looked at the rankings I think it was in the > top > 10, and Sarah mentioned that she wanted to stay in Texas and that is the > only reason I brought it up. I know there are many views on the topic > of > law school rankings, and I would enjoy hearing your thoughts. I look > forward to hearing from you. > Warmest regards, > Dennis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Blaine Deutscher" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:48 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information > > >> when we talk about the top law schools in the state what are you going > by? >> Harvard is a good law school but most of the people that go there have >> their >> parents paying for them to go. I might go to a Law school that > doesn't >> have >> the money but graduation and employment might be really popular and > the >> law >> school is recognized for graduating wonderful Lawyers. >> Blaine >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dennis Clark" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:13 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information >> >> >> Hello Sarah, >> My background and advice is similar to Daniels. I graduated from law >> school >> in 1991. Five law schools does seem like a small number of schools to > me. >> It is very difficult to predict where one will be admitted. When I >> applied >> I was rejected by some schools where I thought I would be instantly >> admitted >> and I got into others which were a definite long shot. As I look back > I >> can >> say that my admissions and rejections were a mystery and definitely >> unpredictable. The University of Texas law school in Austin is one of > the >> top law schools in the country, and as such almost impossible to get > in to >> as a matter of statistics. That does not mean you won't, you will > just >> need high grades, a great LSAT score, and outstanding recommendations. > My >> advice is that you not set an arbitrary deadline as to when you must >> apply. >> Instead get all your ducks in a row first, making sure that they are > the >> best looking and most desirable ducks you can corral. Once you have > done >> this you will greatly optimize your number of successful applications > and >> you will then be able to choose the school and financial aid package > that >> best fits your circumstances and goals. Please feel free to contact > me >> off >> list if I can help. >> All the best, >> Dennis >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frye, Daniel" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:11 AM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information >> >> >> Sarah: >> >> I will leave some of your questions unanswered, deferring to those who >> have >> more recent experience than I about the LSAT. I graduated law school > in >> 1993, some seventeen years ago now. The testing procedures are > different >> now, and I know that considerable litigation and advocacy around > equitable >> testing practices are regularly a topic of conversation here. But I > can >> tell >> you these things: >> >> Applying to five law schools, as a rule, sounds like an arbitrary > number. >> I >> don't know that it matters how many schools you submit applications > to, so >> long as you submit enough to a diverse range of schools, giving you >> potential choices and allowing for some disappointed ambitions. > Finally, >> only you can know whether incurring tuition costs is something you're >> prepared to handle. If this is a principal consideration for you, I > guess >> the simple answer is yes, apply in Texas, where cost is less of a > factor. >> If >> you believe you can get scholarships, or if you have no objection to >> incurring student loans as an investment in your future, apply > elsewhere. >> Texas has a variety of reputable, ABA accredited law schools, but > better >> ones exist throughout the country. If you are this uncertain about > whether >> law school is something you are interested in, an inference I draw > based >> on >> your inquiry about finances, seriously evaluate your career objectives > in >> general before embarking on this expensive, time-consuming, but >> potentially >> rewarding journey. >> >> Be well. >> >> >> Daniel B. Frye, J.D. >> Management and Program Specialist >> Randolph-Sheppard Programs >> U.S. Department of Education >> Office of Special Education >> and Rehabilitative Services >> Rehabilitation Services Administration >> 550 12th Street, SW, Room 5023 >> Washington, DC 20202-2800 >> (202) 245-7308 office >> (202) 245-7591 fax >> (410) 241-7006 mobile >> daniel.frye at ed.gov >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On >> Behalf Of Sarah >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:46 PM >> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [blindlaw] LSAT and law school information >> >> Hello. I am a pre-law major. I am planning to take the LSAT's next > June. I >> am totally blind. Is the information to study for the LSAT's > available >> in >> an accessible format? What accommodations are available when taking > the >> test? >> My pre-law advisor suggested I apply to five law schools. is this >> information correct? I live in Texas, and there is a tuition and fees >> waiver >> for blind students. Should I just apply to law schools in Texas so I > will >> not have to pay tuition and fees? Feel free to email me off list. > Thank >> you. >> Sarah >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/daniel.frye%40 > ed.g > ov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > 0sbc > global.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sa > sktel.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 > 0sbc > global.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sa > sktel.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox > .net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%4 0sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov From Susan.Kelly at pima.gov Wed Nov 24 15:05:10 2010 From: Susan.Kelly at pima.gov (Susan Kelly) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 08:05:10 -0700 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> <55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com> Message-ID: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E794@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Actually...my great-great grandfather "read" for the bar - in fact, he only had a high school diploma, but became an attorney by internship and very educated by his love of reading. Going through modern law school, was always jealous that it had at least once been by practice and testing alone! -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jorge Paez Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 6:52 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys Out rages! Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? Unless of course its some sort of internship. On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > That is because Canada is a socialist nation. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> Good point Blain. >> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >> U.S. graduates. >> I like it. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>> year >>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>> firm. >>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >>> one >>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like you >>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>> pay >>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to the >>> firm. >>> >>> Blaine >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired >>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>> year. >>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>> require >>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, I >>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move to >>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>> years >>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>> that >>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >>> as >>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>> would >>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>> lawyer >>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>> process. >>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the legal >>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on the >>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the effort >>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>> "lucky" >>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector as >>> I >>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>> law >>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>> with >>> the Fed myself! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> James: >>> >>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>> target. >>> >>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>> now >>> practice for the federal government. >>> >>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >>> private firms. >>> >>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive offers >>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>> >>> Noel Nightingale >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>> now, >>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been employed >>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>> are >>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>> they >>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>> my >>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>> have >>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on blind >>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>> who >>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>> "astronomical." >>> *smile* >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>> with >>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>> persons >>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>> evidence >>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>> lawyers, >>>> who are working. >>>> >>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>> right >>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>> bad >>>> economy penalty. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>> ZERO job offers >>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>> extremely low >>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>> to discuss. >>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>> career is to not >>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>> than ever >>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>> invest the >>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for blindlaw: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40opt onli >>> ne.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightinga le%4 >>> 0ed.gov >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. rr.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yaho o.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% 40sasktel.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40road runner.com >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >> 07:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley% 40insightbb.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 02:35:00 > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 14:34:00 > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40m ac.com _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 pima.gov From rumpole at roadrunner.com Wed Nov 24 15:51:27 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:51:27 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945><1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901><7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC><55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com> <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E794@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Message-ID: <71F41AD82B4B4422B02742DDD32D66D3@none8a46117901> The last I knew, Vermont and North Carolina were the only two states who still permitted that - and it was done through apprenticeship to an admitted attorney. But that information is about 10 years old, so it may not apply any longer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Kelly" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Actually...my great-great grandfather "read" for the bar - in fact, he > only had a high school diploma, but became an attorney by internship and > very educated by his love of reading. Going through modern law school, > was always jealous that it had at least once been by practice and > testing alone! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 6:52 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Out rages! > Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? > Unless of course its some sort of internship. > > > On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> That is because Canada is a socialist nation. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" > >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Good point Blain. >>> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself > to >>> U.S. graduates. >>> I like it. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do > one >>>> year >>>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a > Law >>>> firm. >>>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that > that >>>> one >>>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they > like you >>>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms > might >>>> pay >>>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit > to the >>>> firm. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and > acquired >>>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than > a >>>> year. >>>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for > employment in >>>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>>> require >>>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other > obligations, I >>>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to > move to >>>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for > fourteen >>>> years >>>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best > profession >>>> that >>>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges > such >>>> as >>>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but > I >>>> would >>>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly > graduated >>>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>>> lawyer >>>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. > these >>>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>>> process. >>>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal > aid >>>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the > legal >>>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending > on the >>>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to > encourage >>>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the > effort >>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>> "lucky" >>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public > sector as >>>> I >>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems > and >>>> law >>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job > interview >>>> with >>>> the Fed myself! >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is > on >>>> target. >>>> >>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my > work >>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five > years. I >>>> now >>>> practice for the federal government. >>>> >>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got > jobs at >>>> private firms. >>>> >>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own > experience >>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive > offers >>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>> >>>> Noel Nightingale >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below > again >>>> now, >>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been > employed >>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those > who >>>> are >>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep > unless >>>> they >>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers > in my >>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established > because >>>> my >>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know > as I >>>> have >>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for > the >>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on > blind >>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind > lawyers >>>> who >>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>> "astronomical." >>>> *smile* >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I > agree >>>> with >>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> persons >>>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> evidence >>>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> lawyers, >>>>> who are working. >>>>> >>>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> right >>>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> bad >>>>> economy penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> ZERO job offers >>>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> extremely low >>>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> to discuss. >>>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> career is to not >>>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance > statistically, >>>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> than ever >>>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> invest the >>>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an > exception. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40opt > onli >>>> ne.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightinga > le%4 >>>> 0ed.gov >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. > rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yaho > o.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sasktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40road > runner.com >>> >>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: > 11/23/10 >>> 07:34:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley% > 40insightbb.com >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: > 11/21/10 02:35:00 >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: > 11/23/10 14:34:00 >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40m > ac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 07:34:00 From stiehm.law at juno.com Wed Nov 24 19:08:17 2010 From: stiehm.law at juno.com (Patrick H Stiehm) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 14:08:17 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Practicing through apprenticeship Message-ID: <20101124.110826.990.74788@mailpop02.vgs.untd.com> Virginia still has the so called "Lincoln Law" which permits you to "read" for the law in the office of a Virginia bared lawyer. I'm not sure how long the required timeframe is or what any other requirements may be. You still have to take and pass the Virginia Bar Examination to be admitted in that fashion. The year I was admitted there was one individual who got admitted that way. He was specially introduced and in the introduction it was noted that he was the first one in several years to have gone through that procedure. I am not sure how common it is. As far as Wisconsin is concerned, at when I practiced there, if you had attended either the University of Wisconsin law school or the Marquette University law school and had taken and passed certain designated courses that were prescribed by the Board of Law Examiners you were admitted on graduation. This was of course great for the UW and Marquette law graduates. Even for those of us who had not gone to UW or Marquette it was a benefit. When I took the Wisconsin bar there were only 98 people taking it, as opposed to an excess of 500 in Minnesota a few years earlier. Wisconsin's test was a three-day test, we started it on a Monday finished on a Wednesday, on Friday they had the results which you call in and get and we were sworn in the following Monday, one week from the day we started the exam. Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, Virginia 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) Email address: stiehm.law at verizon.net On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:01:09 -0500 "John Ramsey" writes: > Ross: > There are some States that still allow for an apprenticeship style > bar > membership. For example, I believe Virginia still allows for a > person to > become licensed if they work under an attorney for five years. I am > told a > few states have some variation of this. Also, I believe it is > Wisconsin that > does not require a bar exam at all for Wisconsin law grads. > Take care, > John > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stiehm.law%40ju no.com > Stiehm Law Office Alexandria, Virginia 703-360-1089 (Voice) 703-935-8266 (Fax) Email address: stiehm.law at verizon.net ____________________________________________________________ $350,000 Life Insurance Coverage as low as $13.04/month. Free, No Obligation Quotes. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ced62cbac3c442b80st02vuc From jorgeapaez at mac.com Wed Nov 24 20:23:55 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 15:23:55 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <301401cb8b7e$06660300$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN> <2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com> <93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind> <62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind> <83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945> <1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901> <7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC> <301401cb8b7e$06660300$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: Denis: With all due respect I disagree. I think our republic system is the best one there is, in theory and in its systems. We just gotta kick out the corrupted members of the parties, as well as the hard radicals and we'll do fine. On Nov 23, 2010, at 9:19 PM, Dennis Clark wrote: > Steve > If Canada is a socialist nation maybe we should consider going in that direction. They have some good things going on there. Israel is also a socialist nation, and there are some good things there too. The more I write the more I realize that socialism is the way to go. Let's give it a try. Can it possibly be a worse economic system than the one we have. Granted we have semi-socialism already, in that when businesses succeed, they get to keep all their money because they create jobs (in China). When they fail, we the tax payers get to pick up their losses. I can't deny that rescuing multimillionaires does give me a warm fuzzy feeling, but I am willing to give up this altruistic defect in my personality if it will help the country. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve P. Deeley" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 5:48 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> That is because Canada is a socialist nation. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Good point Blain. >>> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself to >>> U.S. graduates. >>> I like it. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do one >>>> year >>>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a Law >>>> firm. >>>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that that >>>> one >>>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they like >>>> you >>>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms might >>>> pay >>>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit to the >>>> firm. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and acquired >>>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than a >>>> year. >>>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for employment in >>>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>>> require >>>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other obligations, >>>> I >>>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to move >>>> to >>>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for fourteen >>>> years >>>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best profession >>>> that >>>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges such >>>> as >>>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but I >>>> would >>>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly graduated >>>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>>> lawyer >>>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. these >>>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>>> process. >>>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal aid >>>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the >>>> legal >>>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending on >>>> the >>>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to encourage >>>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the >>>> effort >>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>> "lucky" >>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public sector >>>> as >>>> I >>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems and >>>> law >>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job interview >>>> with >>>> the Fed myself! >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is on >>>> target. >>>> >>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my work >>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years. I >>>> now >>>> practice for the federal government. >>>> >>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got jobs at >>>> private firms. >>>> >>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own experience >>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive >>>> offers >>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>> >>>> Noel Nightingale >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below again >>>> now, >>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been >>>> employed >>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those who >>>> are >>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep unless >>>> they >>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers in my >>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established because >>>> my >>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as I >>>> have >>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the >>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on >>>> blind >>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind lawyers >>>> who >>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>> "astronomical." >>>> *smile* >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I agree >>>> with >>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> persons >>>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> evidence >>>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> lawyers, >>>>> who are working. >>>>> >>>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> right >>>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> bad >>>>> economy penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> ZERO job offers >>>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> extremely low >>>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> to discuss. >>>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> career is to not >>>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >>>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> than ever >>>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> invest the >>>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli >>>> ne.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4 >>>> 0ed.gov >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yahoo.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher%40sasktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 >>> 07:34:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindlaw: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley%40insightbb.com >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: 11/21/10 >> 02:35:00 >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: 11/23/10 14:34:00 > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From kgilbride at dralegal.org Thu Nov 25 00:50:46 2010 From: kgilbride at dralegal.org (Karla Gilbride) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 16:50:46 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945><1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901><7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC><55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E794@EVS02.central.pima.gov> <71F41AD82B4B4422B02742DDD32D66D3@none8a46117901> Message-ID: <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE36FB5@draexchange.dralegal.com> California permits people to sit for the Bar without a law school degree if they serve an apprenticeship as well. ________________________________ From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org on behalf of Ross Doerr Sent: Wed 11/24/2010 7:51 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys The last I knew, Vermont and North Carolina were the only two states who still permitted that - and it was done through apprenticeship to an admitted attorney. But that information is about 10 years old, so it may not apply any longer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Kelly" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Actually...my great-great grandfather "read" for the bar - in fact, he > only had a high school diploma, but became an attorney by internship and > very educated by his love of reading. Going through modern law school, > was always jealous that it had at least once been by practice and > testing alone! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 6:52 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Out rages! > Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? > Unless of course its some sort of internship. > > > On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> That is because Canada is a socialist nation. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" > >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Good point Blain. >>> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself > to >>> U.S. graduates. >>> I like it. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do > one >>>> year >>>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a > Law >>>> firm. >>>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that > that >>>> one >>>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they > like you >>>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms > might >>>> pay >>>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit > to the >>>> firm. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and > acquired >>>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than > a >>>> year. >>>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for > employment in >>>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>>> require >>>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other > obligations, I >>>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to > move to >>>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for > fourteen >>>> years >>>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best > profession >>>> that >>>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges > such >>>> as >>>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but > I >>>> would >>>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly > graduated >>>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>>> lawyer >>>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. > these >>>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>>> process. >>>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal > aid >>>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the > legal >>>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending > on the >>>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to > encourage >>>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the > effort >>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>> "lucky" >>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public > sector as >>>> I >>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems > and >>>> law >>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job > interview >>>> with >>>> the Fed myself! >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is > on >>>> target. >>>> >>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my > work >>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five > years. I >>>> now >>>> practice for the federal government. >>>> >>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got > jobs at >>>> private firms. >>>> >>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own > experience >>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive > offers >>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>> >>>> Noel Nightingale >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below > again >>>> now, >>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been > employed >>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those > who >>>> are >>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep > unless >>>> they >>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers > in my >>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established > because >>>> my >>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know > as I >>>> have >>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for > the >>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on > blind >>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind > lawyers >>>> who >>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>> "astronomical." >>>> *smile* >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I > agree >>>> with >>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> persons >>>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> evidence >>>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> lawyers, >>>>> who are working. >>>>> >>>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> right >>>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> bad >>>>> economy penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> ZERO job offers >>>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> extremely low >>>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> to discuss. >>>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> career is to not >>>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance > statistically, >>>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> than ever >>>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> invest the >>>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an > exception. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40opt > onli >>>> ne.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightinga > le%4 >>>> 0ed.gov >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. > rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yaho > o.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sasktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40road > runner.com >>> >>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: > 11/23/10 >>> 07:34:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley% > 40insightbb.com >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: > 11/21/10 02:35:00 >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: > 11/23/10 14:34:00 >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40m > ac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 07:34:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 22011 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 25 02:37:06 2010 From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 18:37:06 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><93F66754B056452785009BDABB84CDA2@Blind><62BFF6978C5B4B4CADDB66F73D46826C@Blind><83260B7BE3EE45F9BE3A516E57B07110@GPD945><1F64C7B864CD46C8B032062E6644991B@none8a46117901><7D48B1F31C6247CA9547D7D931D4039B@StevePC><55FE9078-EC37-4456-ADC0-DF3166FBB6C3@mac.com><1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E794@EVS02.central.pima.gov><71F41AD82B4B4422B02742DDD32D66D3@none8a46117901> <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE36FB5@draexchange.dralegal.com> Message-ID: <00ac01cb8c49$a7136b00$6601a8c0@server> Hello Carla, I knew that this used to be true, but don't they have to also take courses from the attorney they work for, and take the "baby Bar" along the way? I once knew someone about ten years ago who was doing this, but she was never able to pass the baby bar. She was very bright, so I began wondering if anyone ever actually passed the baby bar. Best, Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karla Gilbride" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 4:50 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys California permits people to sit for the Bar without a law school degree if they serve an apprenticeship as well. ________________________________ From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org on behalf of Ross Doerr Sent: Wed 11/24/2010 7:51 AM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys The last I knew, Vermont and North Carolina were the only two states who still permitted that - and it was done through apprenticeship to an admitted attorney. But that information is about 10 years old, so it may not apply any longer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Kelly" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Actually...my great-great grandfather "read" for the bar - in fact, he > only had a high school diploma, but became an attorney by internship and > very educated by his love of reading. Going through modern law school, > was always jealous that it had at least once been by practice and > testing alone! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010 6:52 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Out rages! > Employ someone who hasn't passed the BAR? > Unless of course its some sort of internship. > > > On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Steve P. Deeley wrote: > >> That is because Canada is a socialist nation. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Doerr" > >> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> >>> Good point Blain. >>> IF that were "required" in the U.S. the same result may append itself > to >>> U.S. graduates. >>> I like it. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaine Deutscher" > >>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:28 PM >>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>> >>> >>>> This is why Canadian Law students have somewhat of an advantage over >>>> American students. before you take the Bar you are required to do > one >>>> year >>>> of what they call artickling. This is where you go and work in a > Law >>>> firm. >>>> A lot of Law students that attend a Law school in Canada find that > that >>>> one >>>> year helps then gain employment and if you're really good or they > like you >>>> then you might get reemploied after you pass the bar. Some firms > might >>>> pay >>>> for you to take the bar if they feel that you will be a real assit > to the >>>> firm. >>>> >>>> Blaine >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:06 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> >>>> my name is Girmai Kahsai. I graduated from law school and > acquired >>>> my bar license in 2009. I have been applying for a job for more than > a >>>> year. >>>> I have had interviews and I believe I was not selected for > employment in >>>> some cases due to discrimination tacit or otherwise whenever the >>>> interviewers discovered that I am blind. federal and state agencies >>>> require >>>> experience which is a hurdle for new attorney. due to other > obligations, I >>>> am seeking gainful employment in other areaas which may help me to > move to >>>> attorney position in the long run. I have been a lawyer for > fourteen >>>> years >>>> in another country and I have no doubt that law is the best > profession >>>> that >>>> would not require sight. nonetheless due to innumberable challenges > such >>>> as >>>> the current economic crisis, bias etc. employment is evading me. but > I >>>> would >>>> like to stress that with proper planning and preparation newly > graduated >>>> blind attorneys have the chance of employment. the prospective blind >>>> lawyer >>>> should work as intern duringg summers in federal or state agencies, >>>> participate in nmoot court competitions, law school journal etc. > these >>>> experiences would give the blind lawyer an edge in the search for >>>> employment. employers consider these experiences during the hiring >>>> process. >>>> the formation of a nonprofit organization for the provision of legal > aid >>>> should be explored as an alternative option by a blind attorney. the > legal >>>> profession is extremely broad and can be applied flexibly depending > on the >>>> creativity of the blind attorney individual. I would like to > encourage >>>> blind individuals with stamina and skills to strive to study law. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:56 PM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the > effort >>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the >>>> "lucky" >>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public > sector as >>>> I >>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems > and >>>> law >>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job > interview >>>> with >>>> the Fed myself! >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> James: >>>> >>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is > on >>>> target. >>>> >>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a >>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my > work >>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five > years. I >>>> now >>>> practice for the federal government. >>>> >>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got > jobs at >>>> private firms. >>>> >>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own > experience >>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive > offers >>>> of employment to practice in the private sector. >>>> >>>> Noel Nightingale >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM >>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below > again >>>> now, >>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been > employed >>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those > who >>>> are >>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep > unless >>>> they >>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers > in my >>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established > because >>>> my >>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know > as I >>>> have >>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for > the >>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for >>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on > blind >>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind > lawyers >>>> who >>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to >>>> "astronomical." >>>> *smile* >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net >>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> >>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I > agree >>>> with >>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am >>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >>>> >>>>> James: >>>>> >>>>> I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind >>>>> persons >>>>> in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my >>>>> evidence >>>>> is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for >>>>> blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind >>>>> lawyers, >>>>> who are working. >>>>> >>>>> From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good >>>>> right >>>>> now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the >>>>> bad >>>>> economy penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote: >>>>> >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, >>>>> ZERO job offers >>>>> >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the >>>>> extremely low >>>>> >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be >>>>> to discuss. >>>>> >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a >>>>> career is to not >>>>> >waste their time or money they have a greater chance > statistically, >>>>> >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class >>>>> than ever >>>>> >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >>>>> >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS >>>>> THE WAY IT IS! >>>>> >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to >>>>> invest the >>>>> >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an > exception. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for blindlaw: >>>>> >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40opt > onli >>>> ne.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightinga > le%4 >>>> 0ed.gov >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. > rr.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/awilusa%40yaho > o.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.m.deutscher% > 40sasktel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> blindlaw mailing list >>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> blindlaw: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40road > runner.com >>> >>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: > 11/23/10 >>> 07:34:00 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindlaw mailing list >>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/stevep.deeley% > 40insightbb.com >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3270 - Release Date: > 11/21/10 02:35:00 >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3275 - Release Date: > 11/23/10 14:34:00 >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40m > ac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3274 - Release Date: 11/23/10 07:34:00 _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > From jorgeapaez at mac.com Thu Nov 25 15:51:40 2010 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 10:51:40 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? In-Reply-To: <71A6097E1A464C4BA6248EBD0A31FDF5@spike> References: <156845D4-7DA4-4D49-BEC7-026FCFFD7030@mac.com> <71A6097E1A464C4BA6248EBD0A31FDF5@spike> Message-ID: Chuck: Do you work in this field? If so, are you certified to practice in New York state. If you are, please email me offline and we can talk, because I want to be completely sure of what I'm doing before I start. Thanks, Jorge On Nov 23, 2010, at 8:23 PM, ckrugman at sbcglobal.net wrote: > the process of publishing notice for an LLC or any other type of corporation depends on your state laws as corporations and LLCs are registered in the state where they are doing business or where their directors/partners choose to register them. For that reason the specific procedures would not be covered in Federal publications. In establishing a business it is usually advisable to consult with an attorney or business consultant prior to proceeding so your options can be considered thoroughly and you don't make costly mistakes. > Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal > 1237 P Street > Fresno ca 93721 > 559-266-9237 > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 2:55 PM > Subject: [blindlaw] llc law - news paper publication? > > >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, is it true that if you're going to form an LLC you require a publication to be made in 2 newspapers? >> That's what I heard, but don't know if its true because it hasn't been mentioned in any of the government resources I look at. >> >> Anyone have any ideas? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jorge >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From rumpole at roadrunner.com Fri Nov 26 23:15:51 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 18:15:51 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] U.S. Atty office job posting Message-ID: * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR UNITE STATES TRUSTEES ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF CRIMINAL ENFORCEMENT 10-49-14001 The application package must be received by the closing date of the announcement, which is 12/20/2010. [ http://justice.gov/oarm/jobs/10-49-14001creuvacannnov10.htm ] ______________________________________________________________________ Ross A. Doerr Esquire Admitted to Practice in Maine and New Hampshire F. Ct. Admission: ME. N.H. From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 27 20:06:08 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 12:06:08 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E768@EVS02.central.pima.gov> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind> <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F705F3E768@EVS02.central.pima.gov> Message-ID: Over the years I have known several blind attorneys that were gainfully employed. I met one in Michigan who at the time that I was in college in the early 70's was a prosecuting attorney in Detroit and he subsequently was elected as a judge. I was quite impressed that he had the Michigan Criminal code statutes in Braille at the time. I also knew another attorney their that had worked for a legal aid program and subsequently went in to private practice specializing in landlord tenant law and was quite successful. As a blind paralegal I freelance and am underemployed partly by choice so as not to give up Social Security disability and Medicare benefits as this takes the pressure off and allows me to pick and choose what I work on. Realistically, there are many things that paralegals do that don't always lend themselves to people with visual difficulties. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Kelly" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > I've often wondered about this myself, as I didn't hit the statutorily > blind level until a couple of years ago. However, there is a prosecutor > in the County Attorney's Office here who has been blind since birth. > Also, one of my classmates was already statutorily blind (RP)by the time > we were in school, and a lady in the class ahead of us was totally blind > due to rheumatoid arthritis. As far as I know, both of these > individuals are also employed in the legal profession. Granted, that's > not many, but there is at least a glimmer of hope... > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On Behalf Of James Weisberg > Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2010 1:16 PM > To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Curious: > > 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at > all???? > I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I > would > suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with > vision > issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > Are there any attorneys out there who are: > 1 blind or statutorily blind; > 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful > activity; > and > 3 receiving disability as a result. > > If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. > rr.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/susan.kelly%40 > pima.gov > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 27 21:41:39 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 13:41:39 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <0f6301cb8795$512de430$6601a8c0@server> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><7C8FEADCFFF24F43AC0907C20FC54FE9@Blind> <0f6301cb8795$512de430$6601a8c0@server> Message-ID: <0AEB47696E8B4A11B22303184920B20F@spike> This is a very good assessment of the situation. While not having completed law school I have had to create many of my opportunities and successes both as a social worker and as a paralegal. In many instances this involved taking risks that others would not have taken with employers that were just starting out businesses or agencies and working for solo practitioners currently. At times I have had to be paid on a contingency as the attorney was on personal injury cases. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W. Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Hello James, > > Clearly you are frustrated, I fully understand that, and for anyone else > to tell you that you should not be is judging you without knowing about > your personal experiences. There is no question that there is tremendous > discrimination in the legal field, because the law firms understand the > discrimination laws and are expert at circumventing them. Regardless, > this is the world in which we must function and try to succeed, and I > think there is opportunity in the discrimination we are all encountering. > One characteristic that I have noticed with successful people, is that > they more often than not have created their own opportunities, by building > on their own talents and limitations. > > When I am feeling discouraged, I try to remind myself about the employment > possibilities which faced black attorneys such as Thurgood Marshal in the > 1940's. Employment with large firms was not possible for these black > attorneys regardless of how talented or bright they might have been. None > the less, Thurgood Marshal did succeed, mostly by filing civil rights > cases for blacks and helping to build the NAACP Legal Defense Fund into a > formidable institution. My opinion is that most of the success that > blacks enjoy today is a direct result of the work done by the Legal > Defense Fund. As blind attorneys, we have that opportunity as well simply > by following Thurgood Marshal's roadmap, if we would simply pool our > talents and just do it. > > My personal opinion is that discrimination in both education and all areas > of employment has become much worse for blind people following the passage > of the ADA. The good news here, is that if there is to be any improvement > in our lives it will be as a result of blind lawyers fighting for the > civil rights of blind people. We unlike non lawyers, can force our > opponents to deal with us, because we have the power to drag them into > court, and when we succeed they will be paying our legal expenses. > > Another characteristic of successful people is that they will not take no > for an answer and they never quit no matter how difficult the road ahead > nor no matter how many doors are slammed in their faces. This kind of > inner strength is very difficult to muster and maintain, particularly when > there is no support system in place to help us get reenergized. > Unfortunately as blind people we do not support one another and as a > result we do not have such a support system to turn to. Instead when one > of our blind brethren admits that he or she is having a problem related to > blindness, they will be attacked, not supported. I am not aware of any > other minority groups which do this. > > the attack chorus always sings the same self serving song, and the lyrics > goes that the person in need of assistance is to blame and has not spent > enough of their life learning blindness skills, which in my opinion > translates into the silly notion that the blind person hasn't become > sighted enough. The aspect of this which is most amusing to me, if > amusement can be found at all, is that upon inspection, those leading the > attack and singing the loudest, have usually accomplished almost nothing > other than spending their time trying to become sighted using technology. > My thinking is that as blind people we can either choose to accept the > limitations which are inherent to blindness and become successful anyway, > or we can spend all our waking hours trying to become "independent" by > developing blindness skills in an effort to make us as close to being > sighted as is possible using technology. > > If there are other lawyers on this list who feel similarly to me, please > contact me off list. I would like to do something about our situation, by > learning from the successes of other minorities. All of us who are blind > should be clear that the problem we face as lawyers is that there is too > much legal work to do, not that there is too little work. We are > privileged to be lawyers, so let's take on the challenge. Let's find > strength and success in friendship, support, and optimistic collective > action. We are lawyers, we have power, so lets use it to help one another > and all who are blind. Let's talk and see what we can do together. > > All the best, > Dennis > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:15 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> How's "Supervising Attorney" for a Berkeley clinic, Pro Bono work in >> Southern Florida before the immigration court at Krome detention center, >> Superior Court in Cali a few months back, also pro bono (all successful >> outcomes unfortunately people do not go to blind attorneys with money if >> they can go to sighted ones!) That's not my prejudice just my >> experience. >> I've litigated for over ten years, state, federal, administrative BS >> hearings and have been VERY successful . . . but I live on 1300/month in >> disability. Open and office on that and on top of that demand a deserved >> retainer! Not realistic. How's it sound now? Like I'm not putting >> forth >> the effort??? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of John Ramsey >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:00 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I guess many of us on the list are exceptions and I certainly do not come >> from money. Are you saying that you are a top tier Berkeley Grad? If so, >> maybe you aren't putting forth the effort to practice law. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:55 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job >> offers >> despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low >> numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to >> discuss. >> My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to >> not >> waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever >> getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT >> IS! >> But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest >> the >> time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Karla Gilbride >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> James, >> >> I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind >> attorneys >> are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off >> the >> top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), >> and >> I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should >> chat >> further off-list about your specific concerns. >> >> Best, >> Karla Gilbride >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Curious: >> >> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? >> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >> would >> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision >> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Are there any attorneys out there who are: >> 1 blind or statutorily blind; >> 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful >> activity; >> and >> 3 receiving disability as a result. >> >> If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. >> >> Dan >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. >> rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr >> alegal.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From mruniverse08 at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 23:32:47 2010 From: mruniverse08 at gmail.com (WB) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 17:32:47 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys In-Reply-To: <0AEB47696E8B4A11B22303184920B20F@spike> References: <8648A7D72B204643BC6A6D6EE010F323@DANELLIEVANDAWN><2C964D613F8F45B390C61C9A5AE2D9A4@Blind><754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE2151D@draexchange.dralegal.com><7C8FEADCFFF24F43AC0907C20FC54FE9@Blind> <0f6301cb8795$512de430$6601a8c0@server> <0AEB47696E8B4A11B22303184920B20F@spike> Message-ID: <05fe01cb8f54$91da78b0$b58f6a10$@com> Dennis, I really like the approach you took in your response. not having been blind a total of three years yet, I have repeatedly heard the mantra of "just learn more blind skills." You're so right about many of the blind working against one another or trying to make us all fit into one little cookie-cutter mold. I have never experienced that before. Luckily, my type A personality won't let me lie dormant. What do you think about utilizing organizations that already work toward civil rights advancement for people with disabilities? I work for one here in Houston and they don't really know much about blind issues because the blind here don't complain or make issues aware. Will -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 3:42 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys This is a very good assessment of the situation. While not having completed law school I have had to create many of my opportunities and successes both as a social worker and as a paralegal. In many instances this involved taking risks that others would not have taken with employers that were just starting out businesses or agencies and working for solo practitioners currently. At times I have had to be paid on a contingency as the attorney was on personal injury cases. Chuck Krugman, M.S.W. Paralegal 1237 P Street Fresno ca 93721 559-266-9237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > Hello James, > > Clearly you are frustrated, I fully understand that, and for anyone else > to tell you that you should not be is judging you without knowing about > your personal experiences. There is no question that there is tremendous > discrimination in the legal field, because the law firms understand the > discrimination laws and are expert at circumventing them. Regardless, > this is the world in which we must function and try to succeed, and I > think there is opportunity in the discrimination we are all encountering. > One characteristic that I have noticed with successful people, is that > they more often than not have created their own opportunities, by building > on their own talents and limitations. > > When I am feeling discouraged, I try to remind myself about the employment > possibilities which faced black attorneys such as Thurgood Marshal in the > 1940's. Employment with large firms was not possible for these black > attorneys regardless of how talented or bright they might have been. None > the less, Thurgood Marshal did succeed, mostly by filing civil rights > cases for blacks and helping to build the NAACP Legal Defense Fund into a > formidable institution. My opinion is that most of the success that > blacks enjoy today is a direct result of the work done by the Legal > Defense Fund. As blind attorneys, we have that opportunity as well simply > by following Thurgood Marshal's roadmap, if we would simply pool our > talents and just do it. > > My personal opinion is that discrimination in both education and all areas > of employment has become much worse for blind people following the passage > of the ADA. The good news here, is that if there is to be any improvement > in our lives it will be as a result of blind lawyers fighting for the > civil rights of blind people. We unlike non lawyers, can force our > opponents to deal with us, because we have the power to drag them into > court, and when we succeed they will be paying our legal expenses. > > Another characteristic of successful people is that they will not take no > for an answer and they never quit no matter how difficult the road ahead > nor no matter how many doors are slammed in their faces. This kind of > inner strength is very difficult to muster and maintain, particularly when > there is no support system in place to help us get reenergized. > Unfortunately as blind people we do not support one another and as a > result we do not have such a support system to turn to. Instead when one > of our blind brethren admits that he or she is having a problem related to > blindness, they will be attacked, not supported. I am not aware of any > other minority groups which do this. > > the attack chorus always sings the same self serving song, and the lyrics > goes that the person in need of assistance is to blame and has not spent > enough of their life learning blindness skills, which in my opinion > translates into the silly notion that the blind person hasn't become > sighted enough. The aspect of this which is most amusing to me, if > amusement can be found at all, is that upon inspection, those leading the > attack and singing the loudest, have usually accomplished almost nothing > other than spending their time trying to become sighted using technology. > My thinking is that as blind people we can either choose to accept the > limitations which are inherent to blindness and become successful anyway, > or we can spend all our waking hours trying to become "independent" by > developing blindness skills in an effort to make us as close to being > sighted as is possible using technology. > > If there are other lawyers on this list who feel similarly to me, please > contact me off list. I would like to do something about our situation, by > learning from the successes of other minorities. All of us who are blind > should be clear that the problem we face as lawyers is that there is too > much legal work to do, not that there is too little work. We are > privileged to be lawyers, so let's take on the challenge. Let's find > strength and success in friendship, support, and optimistic collective > action. We are lawyers, we have power, so lets use it to help one another > and all who are blind. Let's talk and see what we can do together. > > All the best, > Dennis > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Weisberg" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:15 PM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys > > >> How's "Supervising Attorney" for a Berkeley clinic, Pro Bono work in >> Southern Florida before the immigration court at Krome detention center, >> Superior Court in Cali a few months back, also pro bono (all successful >> outcomes unfortunately people do not go to blind attorneys with money if >> they can go to sighted ones!) That's not my prejudice just my >> experience. >> I've litigated for over ten years, state, federal, administrative BS >> hearings and have been VERY successful . . . but I live on 1300/month in >> disability. Open and office on that and on top of that demand a deserved >> retainer! Not realistic. How's it sound now? Like I'm not putting >> forth >> the effort??? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of John Ramsey >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:00 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> I guess many of us on the list are exceptions and I certainly do not come >> from money. Are you saying that you are a top tier Berkeley Grad? If so, >> maybe you aren't putting forth the effort to practice law. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:55 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad, ZERO job >> offers >> despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the extremely low >> numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be to >> discuss. >> My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a career is to >> not >> waste their time or money they have a greater chance statistically, >> probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class than ever >> getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget >> everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS THE WAY IT >> IS! >> But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to invest >> the >> time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an exception. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Karla Gilbride >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:48 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> James, >> >> I don't mean to minimize the barriers, but the prospects for blind >> attorneys >> are certainly not as bad as you suggest. I can think of at least ten off >> the >> top of my head, including myself (I've been totally blind since birth), >> and >> I'm sure I could come up with others given more time. Perhaps we should >> chat >> further off-list about your specific concerns. >> >> Best, >> Karla Gilbride >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of James Weisberg >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:16 PM >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Curious: >> >> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all???? >> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I >> would >> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision >> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf Of dlmlaw at sbcglobal.net >> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:10 AM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: [blindlaw] blind attorneys >> >> Are there any attorneys out there who are: >> 1 blind or statutorily blind; >> 2 unemployed or underemployed as defined by substantial gainful >> activity; >> and >> 3 receiving disability as a result. >> >> If so, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. >> >> Dan >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc. >> rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dr >> alegal.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/joramsey%40cox.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc global.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob al.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma il.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 29 00:49:41 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 16:49:41 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students withDisabilities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47F11A6CE1374DB8846DA711E4ACAD1B@spike> When did Michigan State establish a law school? When I used to live in Michigan the only public law schools were University of Michigan and wayne State University. I left Michigan though in the mid 1980's. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students withDisabilities >I bet Michigan State does. Try them. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Daniel K. Beitz > Wienner & Gould, P.C. > 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 > Rochester, MI 48307 > Phone: (248) 841-9405 > Fax: (248) 652-2729 > dbeitz at wiennergould.com > > This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email > messages > attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual > responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of > any > of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly > prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify > us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning > us > at (248) 841-9400. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Nora Devine > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:32 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with > Disabilities > > Hi! > > Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities > priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed > to register for classes before all other students. > > My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision > and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe > eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority > registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a > course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also > often left with very little time to convert course materials and text > books. > > Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? > I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would > like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. > > Thanks so much for you help!! > - Nora > > -- > Best Regards, > > Nora Devine > Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 > University of San Francisco School of Law > Tel: 510-508-4209 > devinenora at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo > uld.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From dbeitz at wiennergould.com Mon Nov 29 15:30:12 2010 From: dbeitz at wiennergould.com (Daniel K. Beitz) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 10:30:12 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law StudentswithDisabilities In-Reply-To: <47F11A6CE1374DB8846DA711E4ACAD1B@spike> References: <47F11A6CE1374DB8846DA711E4ACAD1B@spike> Message-ID: <56F6029C42D14FB1A92D4B46C051DE24@DHRL6TC1> The prior Detroit College of Law merged with Michigan State. They built a new facility, and have turned the joint into a pretty good law school. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 7:50 PM To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law StudentswithDisabilities When did Michigan State establish a law school? When I used to live in Michigan the only public law schools were University of Michigan and wayne State University. I left Michigan though in the mid 1980's. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:03 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students withDisabilities >I bet Michigan State does. Try them. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Daniel K. Beitz > Wienner & Gould, P.C. > 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 > Rochester, MI 48307 > Phone: (248) 841-9405 > Fax: (248) 652-2729 > dbeitz at wiennergould.com > > This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email > messages > attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual > responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of > any > of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly > prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify > us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning > us > at (248) 841-9400. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Nora Devine > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:32 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with > Disabilities > > Hi! > > Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities > priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed > to register for classes before all other students. > > My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision > and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe > eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority > registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a > course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also > often left with very little time to convert course materials and text > books. > > Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? > I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would > like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. > > Thanks so much for you help!! > - Nora > > -- > Best Regards, > > Nora Devine > Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 > University of San Francisco School of Law > Tel: 510-508-4209 > devinenora at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo > uld.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob al.net _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com From ckrugman at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 29 17:19:28 2010 From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 09:19:28 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for LawStudentswithDisabilities In-Reply-To: <56F6029C42D14FB1A92D4B46C051DE24@DHRL6TC1> References: <47F11A6CE1374DB8846DA711E4ACAD1B@spike> <56F6029C42D14FB1A92D4B46C051DE24@DHRL6TC1> Message-ID: <0CC37339DF4941A89B0749AD7AA1FE31@spike> That's interesting to know. I am now in California so I have lost track pretty much of what goes on in Michigan. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel K. Beitz" To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for LawStudentswithDisabilities > The prior Detroit College of Law merged with Michigan State. They built a > new facility, and have turned the joint into a pretty good law school. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Daniel K. Beitz > Wienner & Gould, P.C. > 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 > Rochester, MI 48307 > Phone: (248) 841-9405 > Fax: (248) 652-2729 > dbeitz at wiennergould.com > > This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email > messages > attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual > responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of > any > of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly > prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify > us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning > us > at (248) 841-9400. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 7:50 PM > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law > StudentswithDisabilities > > When did Michigan State establish a law school? When I used to live in > Michigan the only public law schools were University of Michigan and wayne > State University. I left Michigan though in the mid 1980's. > Chuck > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel K. Beitz" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:03 AM > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students > withDisabilities > > >>I bet Michigan State does. Try them. >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> Daniel K. Beitz >> Wienner & Gould, P.C. >> 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 >> Rochester, MI 48307 >> Phone: (248) 841-9405 >> Fax: (248) 652-2729 >> dbeitz at wiennergould.com >> >> This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email >> messages >> attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally >> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual >> responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are >> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of >> any >> of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly >> prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please >> notify >> us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning >> us >> at (248) 841-9400. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Nora Devine >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:32 PM >> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List >> Subject: [blindlaw] Priority Registration for Law Students with >> Disabilities >> >> Hi! >> >> Does anyone know any law schools that give students with disabilities >> priority registration? Meaning students with disabilities are allowed >> to register for classes before all other students. >> >> My undergrad university did and it was a godsend. I have low vision >> and need to space out my schedule and my readings to prevent severe >> eye strain. However, my law school does not allow priority >> registration. Without priority registration I am unable to enroll in a >> course load that allows me to best manage my disability. I am also >> often left with very little time to convert course materials and text >> books. >> >> Just wondering if other law schools provided priority registration? >> I'll be speaking with the Dean of Academic Affairs next week and would >> like to point out other law schools that allow priority registration. >> >> Thanks so much for you help!! >> - Nora >> >> -- >> Best Regards, >> >> Nora Devine >> Juris Doctor Candidate 2012 >> University of San Francisco School of Law >> Tel: 510-508-4209 >> devinenora at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo >> uld.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindlaw mailing list >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindlaw: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglob > al.net > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo > uld.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net From rumpole at roadrunner.com Mon Nov 29 22:57:31 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 17:57:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] Twitter notice - DOJ Message-ID: Just FYI-- *** The Civil Rights Division is now on Twitter! Visit www.twitter.com/DOJcivilrights [ http://www.twitter.com/DOJcivilrights ] to follow us for the latest news and information from the Civil Rights Division. Ross A. Doerr Esquire Admitted to Practice in Maine and New Hampshire F. Ct. Admission: ME. N.H. From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com Tue Nov 30 18:17:44 2010 From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:17:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF Message-ID: <346802.70463.qm@web112409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi everybody, I was wondering if there's a way to use Openbook to scan a document into a PDF file. If not, what do you do when you need to scan something into a PDF? Thanks. Mike From m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com Tue Nov 30 18:17:55 2010 From: m_b_gilmore at yahoo.com (Mike Gilmore) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:17:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF Message-ID: <929257.80288.qm@web112420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi everybody, I was wondering if there's a way to use Openbook to scan a document into a PDF file. If not, what do you do when you need to scan something into a PDF? Thanks. Mike From dbeitz at wiennergould.com Tue Nov 30 18:30:31 2010 From: dbeitz at wiennergould.com (Daniel K. Beitz) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 13:30:31 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF In-Reply-To: <929257.80288.qm@web112420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <929257.80288.qm@web112420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03A94386795441CBBBD92C3DD96BD39B@DHRL6TC1> I just use omnipage. Everything gets scanned into PDF, and then converted to .doc. ------------------------------------------- Daniel K. Beitz Wienner & Gould, P.C. 950 University Dr., Ste. 350 Rochester, MI 48307 Phone: (248) 841-9405 Fax: (248) 652-2729 dbeitz at wiennergould.com This email transmission and any documents, files or previous email messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the individual responsible for delivering this email to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution or use of any of the information contained herein or attached to this email is strictly prohibited. Should you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this email or by telephoning us at (248) 841-9400. -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Gilmore Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 1:18 PM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF Hi everybody, I was wondering if there's a way to use Openbook to scan a document into a PDF file. If not, what do you do when you need to scan something into a PDF? Thanks. Mike _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dbeitz%40wiennergo uld.com From stone_troll at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 30 18:32:37 2010 From: stone_troll at sbcglobal.net (Mark BurningHawk) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:32:37 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF In-Reply-To: <346802.70463.qm@web112409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <346802.70463.qm@web112409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <72D96313-6182-4D70-BECF-867D1E8BD652@sbcglobal.net> Scan it to a text document and use a converter program (can Word do this?) to convert it to PDF? The other thing you can do is scan it and save it as a picture; though not a PDF file, it is easily readable by a sighted person on the other end; I had to do this with receipts that would not easily convert to text by OCR, but were still legible when sent as JPG files. Mark BurningHawk Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 Home: Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ Namaste! From rthomas at emplmntattorney.com Tue Nov 30 18:46:42 2010 From: rthomas at emplmntattorney.com (Russell J. Thomas, Jr.) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:46:42 -0800 Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF In-Reply-To: <346802.70463.qm@web112409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <346802.70463.qm@web112409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1B323ABC6BB34048B5C7D17E9B652F71@RThomas> If you have created the document in word, you can use "print to pdf" which should change the format of the document to pdf. Another option, is Nuance pdf converter. That program let's you convert readable pdf documents in to word, and let's you convert word documents into pdf. I have used the Nuance product for several years, and I find it easy to use and highly reliable. Respectfully, Russell J. Thomas, Jr. Law Office of Russell J. Thomas, Jr. 4121 Westerly Place, Suite 101 Newport Beach, California 92660 T: (949) 752-0101 F: (949) 257-4756 M: (949) 466-7238 www.emplmnattorney.com Follow me on Twitter: EmplmntAttorney PLEASE NOTE MY NEW EMAIL ADDRESS, EFF. 6/1/2010: RTHOMAS at EMPLMNTATTORNEY.COM -----Original Message----- From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Gilmore Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:18 AM To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF Hi everybody, I was wondering if there's a way to use Openbook to scan a document into a PDF file. If not, what do you do when you need to scan something into a PDF? Thanks. Mike _______________________________________________ blindlaw mailing list blindlaw at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindlaw: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rthomas%40rjtlawfi rm.com From rumpole at roadrunner.com Tue Nov 30 18:51:23 2010 From: rumpole at roadrunner.com (Ross Doerr) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 13:51:23 -0500 Subject: [blindlaw] SSA "no match" posting- employment related Message-ID: SSA "NO-MATCH" GUIDANCE FROM OSC. On November19, 2010, OSC published a new guidance package on how employers and employees should respond to SSA No-Match letters and similar notices from other governmental and non-governmental sources. The package includes Do/Do Not instructional sheets for both employers and employees together with FAQs. Go to: http://www.justice.gov/crt/osc/htm/SSA.php and scroll down to where you find: "SSA NO-MATCH GUIDANCE PAGE" The two links below that phrase, one for employees and one for employers, take you to ADOBE documents, so you will need adobe acrobat reader to read these documents. Ross A. Doerr Esquire Admitted to Practice in Maine and New Hampshire F. Ct. Admission: ME. N.H. From Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov Tue Nov 30 20:01:04 2010 From: Noel.Nightingale at ed.gov (Nightingale, Noel) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:01:04 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice Message-ID: From: jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:jobs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Maurer, Patricia Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:31 AM To: jobs at nfbnet.org Subject: [Jobs] FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice ________________________________ From: Hunter, Sue (JMD) [mailto:Sue.Hunter at usdoj.gov] Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 2:26 PM To: 'neysas at dnfsb.gov'; Maurer, Patricia; 'nijc at aol.com'; 'nlove at opd.state.md.us'; 'nmcconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noconnell at jackscamp.com'; 'noryrp at cox.net'; 'nowaczej at staff.abanet.org'; 'nromulus at gmail.com'; 'ntb at boglechang.com'; 'nwpatton at law.stanford.edu'; 'nwright at lockelord.com'; 'ocaaba at cox.net'; 'omanager at lawyerscomm.org'; 'padilla at ailc-inc.org'; 'palsd at hotmail.com'; 'patel at fr.com'; 'pchanster at yahoo.com'; 'pchapman at koonz.com'; 'petricha at staff.abanet.org'; 'pgodar at fbtlaw.com'; 'pgrewal at daycasebeer.com'; Maurer, Patricia; 'pmorrison at state.wv.us'; 'poppy.johnston at unlv.edu'; 'president at abaw.org'; 'president at adc.org'; 'president at apaba-dc.org'; 'president at apabala.org'; 'president at blackwomenlawyersla.org'; 'president at dominicanbarassociation.org'; 'president at mabl.org'; 'president at msba.org'; 'president at phillybarristers.org'; 'president at sabadc.org'; 'president at southasianbar.org'; 'rbreiter at law.miami.edu' Subject: FW: Attorney Vacancies at the U.S. Department of Justice To learn more about our attorneys and what they like most about working at DOJ, please visit our attorney profiles at, http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/profiles.htm, and the video clips of our attorneys and interns available at https://www.avuedigitalservices.com/ads/jobsatdojoarm/index.jsp We encourage you to share this email with interested colleagues and peers. If you no longer wish to receive these periodic email announcements, please respond to this email address and ask to be removed from our mailing list. Thank you. Current Department of Justice Attorney Vacancies * U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR UNITE STATES TRUSTEES ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF CRIMINAL ENFORCEMENT 10-49-14001 The application package must be received by the closing date of the announcement, which is 12/20/2010. Date posted: 11-26-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA 10-MDPA-09 Applications must be received by 5:00 p.m. EST on December 6, 2010. Date posted: 11-26-2010 * ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WESTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA 11-WDPA-AUSA-01 Application Deadline is Friday, December 23, 2010. Date posted: 11-23-2010 The purpose of this email is to advise potential interested persons of employment opportunities at the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice cannot control further dissemination and/or posting of this information. Such posting and/or dissemination is not an endorsement by the Department of the organization or group disseminating and/or posting the information. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Jobs mailing list Jobs at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Jobs: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/jobs_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%40ed.gov From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 30 20:21:53 2010 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:21:53 -0600 Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF References: <929257.80288.qm@web112420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A4F9216A4BA48F5A5025A4EF3303B72@HP8730notebook> hi, scan it as usual and save as pdf. Bryan Schulz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Gilmore" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 12:17 PM Subject: [blindlaw] using Openbook to scan into a PDF > Hi everybody, > > I was wondering if there's a way to use Openbook to scan a document into a > PDF file. If not, what do you do when you need to scan something into a > PDF? > > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > blindlaw mailing list > blindlaw at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindlaw: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net