[blindlaw] blind attorneys
Marc Workman
mworkman.lists at gmail.com
Sun Nov 21 19:50:25 UTC 2010
I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken out
of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right that
you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original
post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts
responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you
responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post.
I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but
nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind
lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people,
*all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim, entirely
within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were
responding.
It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I certainly
didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You did
say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is that
assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm wrong,
is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued that
blind people ought to forego law school.
In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses were
to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for
blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your
comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind
lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the legal
profession.
Regards,
Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Weisberg" <jimi-law at dc.rr.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I was
> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law student
> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough
> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for you
> in case you just missed it:
>
> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of
> obtaining
> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high
> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law
> school
> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been
> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that
> the
> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job offer
> it
> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many
> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die" both
> financially and time-wise.
>
> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is capable
> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive"
> responses
> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own
> "issues?"
>
> Respectfully~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Marc Workman
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>
> Ross,
>
> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind
> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough about
> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would
> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession.
> That
> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond with
> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that started
> this all, in case some have forgotten:
>
> Curious:
>
> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at all????
> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I
> would
> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with vision
> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT!
>
> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see
> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The blind
> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with
> vision
> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out all
> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say that
> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal
> profession
>
> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome
> the
> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market.
> It's
>
> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment.
>
> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism,
> given
> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I think
> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the response
> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage.
> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but it's
> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind
> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an
> appropriate response to me.
>
> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the belief
> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue that
> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult for
> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt
> you
> will find any disagreement on this list.
>
> Best,
>
> Marc
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ross Doerr" <rumpole at roadrunner.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>
>
>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a
>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts to
>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers.
>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations of
>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there and
>> do
>
>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were aimed
>> at
>
>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work.
>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate among
>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a feel
>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on
>> the
>
>> blind, much less blind lawyers.
>> Everyone here has a valid point to make.
>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well.
>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000
>> and
>
>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit ranges
>> as
>
>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in
>> spite
>
>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United
>> States.
>> There are times I doubt that premise.
>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on.
>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance, it
>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and CLE
>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice in
>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays for
>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for
>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted to
>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay
>> transportation
>
>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding SGA
>> if you can afford that kind of transportation.
>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if
>> you
>
>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now,
>> lets
>
>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site, because
>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw
>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal
>> malpractice.
>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library anywhere?
>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial work
>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting monthly?
>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If you're
>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation of
>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you MUST
>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there
>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS
>> SGA
>
>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late.
>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted?
>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are
>> blind.
>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular
>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice for
>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their services
>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a
>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't have
>> to
>
>> put up with.
>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead, so
>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they
>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for them.
>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to all
>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial.
>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under
>> good
>
>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own. Those
>> of
>
>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research on
>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I
>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough.
>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try to
>> fix the depression that we are in.
>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with
>> that
>
>> observation?
>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants to
>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand
>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness not
>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase the
>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously
>> planning
>
>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally
>> forestall
>
>> overall job availability on a national scale.
>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local
>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later.
>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut that
>> area as well.
>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but then
>> again neither do the economists.
>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good out
>> there and its going to stay that way for a while.
>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always be
>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are actualy
>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that
>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job.
>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market? Only
>> to
>
>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do it
>> that way is just kidding ourselves.
>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of september.
>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My
>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself and
>> my
>
>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in Maine,
>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts.
>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment
>> rate,
>
>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what the
>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the
>> Republicans or the independents.
>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis.
>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a sighted
>> counterpart?
>> Of course it is.
>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split.
>> Solving the problem is the real issue.
>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer?
>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine"
>>
>> Ross
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Aser Tolentino" <agtolentino at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>
>>
>>> Hi Dennis,
>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my
>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With
>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer
>>> positions.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Aser
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark
>>> <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Aser,
>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where in
>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you.
>>>> All the best,
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino"
>>>> <agtolentino at gmail.com
>>>> >
>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now, as
>>>> I
>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of disability
>>>>> though
>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg <jimi-law at dc.rr.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking the
>>>>>> effort
>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of the
>>>>>> "lucky"
>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public
>>>>>> sector
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision problems
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> law
>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job
>>>>>> interview
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the Fed myself!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM
>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>>>>
>>>>>> James:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response is
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> target.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a
>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my
>>>>>> work
>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five years.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> now
>>>>>> practice for the federal government.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got
>>>>>> jobs
>
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> private firms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own
>>>>>> experience
>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to receive
>>>>>> offers
>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Noel Nightingale
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM
>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below
>>>>>> again
>>>>>> now,
>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been
>>>>>> employed
>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from those
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep
>>>>>> unless
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind lawyers
>>>>>> in
>
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know as
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for the
>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go for
>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers on
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind
>>>>>> lawyers
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to
>>>>>> "astronomical."
>>>>>> *smile*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I
>>>>>> agree
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: David Andrews
>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > James:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind
>>>>>> > persons
>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my
>>>>>> > evidence
>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for
>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind
>>>>>> > lawyers,
>>>>>> > who are working.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good
>>>>>> > right
>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the
>>>>>> > bad
>>>>>> > economy penalty.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Dave
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad,
>>>>>> > ZERO job offers
>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the
>>>>>> > extremely low
>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be
>>>>>> > to discuss.
>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a
>>>>>> > career is to not
>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance
>>>>>> > >statistically,
>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class
>>>>>> > than ever
>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money, forget
>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS
>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS!
>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to
>>>>>> > invest the
>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an
>>>>>> > >exception.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list
>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>> > info for blindlaw:
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> ne.net<
>>>>>>
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> %0Ane.net
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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